How to Navigate Conversations About Sexual Identity
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.580 | - We are back one last time with Sam Albury,
00:00:07.600 | an author, speaker, and minister
00:00:09.960 | at St. Mary's Maidenhead Anglican Church in the UK.
00:00:13.480 | And he joins us from his office in Oxford.
00:00:16.600 | Sam, I wanna talk with you
00:00:18.280 | about the sexual identity conversations you've had
00:00:20.640 | specifically on secular college campuses.
00:00:23.920 | This is a huge question facing pastors and leaders.
00:00:28.960 | These conversations are as potentially volatile
00:00:31.760 | as they are potent for good.
00:00:34.360 | Obviously, speaking of sexual practices and self-identity
00:00:37.960 | with biblical conviction and with humility,
00:00:40.880 | these are conversations that open outreach opportunities
00:00:43.560 | like few other things do.
00:00:46.000 | From your experience, what have you learned
00:00:47.880 | from publicly engaging LGBT societies on campus
00:00:52.020 | and how can we steward these types of conversations well?
00:00:55.800 | - Yeah, thank you.
00:00:56.640 | It's no surprise to anyone that this is a huge issue
00:01:00.880 | on our campuses at the moment.
00:01:03.000 | And my suspicion is that the majority of people
00:01:07.240 | who are in ministry in campus contexts
00:01:10.280 | are pretty fearful of how this issue may play out for them.
00:01:14.080 | There's the fear that if you kind of say
00:01:16.240 | anything remotely orthodox and biblical on this issue,
00:01:19.560 | that you'll be shut down immediately,
00:01:22.040 | that you'll have massive amounts of opposition.
00:01:24.760 | That is certainly a possibility,
00:01:26.560 | but nevertheless, I think there are,
00:01:28.960 | there are just some wonderful opportunities
00:01:30.480 | to engage on this issue.
00:01:32.320 | And my encouragement to pastors
00:01:34.160 | and to campus ministries out there is that actually,
00:01:38.040 | there's a harvest to be had on this issue.
00:01:41.160 | So I've had some experience of doing this,
00:01:44.240 | not a huge amount by any means,
00:01:45.560 | but I've had a few opportunities to go onto secular campuses,
00:01:50.560 | to talk and engage with secular LGBT students
00:01:56.200 | and I've really enjoyed it.
00:01:59.080 | I mean, it's been, I'll be honest,
00:02:00.720 | it's been a bit scary at times
00:02:02.240 | 'cause you never quite know
00:02:03.120 | what kind of reaction you're going to get,
00:02:05.160 | but I've really enjoyed it.
00:02:07.520 | And there's a few things
00:02:08.840 | that have been quite key takeaways for me.
00:02:11.240 | The first is that actually many of these people,
00:02:13.760 | we are nervous of because we think everyone is an activist
00:02:16.760 | and is out to kind of jump up and down on us.
00:02:19.480 | One of the things that was a bit of a revelation to me
00:02:21.600 | was that actually a lot of these students,
00:02:24.320 | particularly in the LGBT societies on campus,
00:02:27.440 | they were more fearful of me than I was of them.
00:02:30.040 | - Wow.
00:02:30.880 | - I remember giving a talk once at an event
00:02:32.440 | that was co-sponsored by the campus LGBT society.
00:02:36.160 | So a lot of their members were present
00:02:38.920 | and there was an opportunity for people
00:02:40.400 | to line up behind the microphone and ask me questions.
00:02:43.480 | And I could hear a few voices kind of cracking
00:02:46.560 | as they would ask a question
00:02:47.840 | and I initially thought that was a sign of anger.
00:02:52.400 | And as I got to listen to these people,
00:02:54.480 | I began to realize, no, no, that's fear.
00:02:58.680 | And it was a revelation to me
00:02:59.880 | because I don't think anyone's ever been frightened
00:03:01.920 | of me in my life.
00:03:03.400 | And it actually broke my heart that these students were
00:03:06.880 | because they thought I hated them.
00:03:09.380 | They thought I was out to kind of have a go at them
00:03:11.960 | and to attack them.
00:03:14.080 | And I found that heartbreaking
00:03:16.760 | because I was there to represent the Prince of Peace.
00:03:20.480 | I was there to represent the most loving person
00:03:23.440 | who ever lived.
00:03:24.440 | And it just made me realize that the onus is on us
00:03:28.360 | as believers to show that we are for people
00:03:32.120 | and not against them, that we care for them,
00:03:34.520 | that we don't hate them, that we want to know them.
00:03:37.360 | And I think we assume we are the target,
00:03:40.680 | everyone else is the aggressor.
00:03:42.400 | And so we're in defensive posture.
00:03:44.680 | Actually, I think we need to be the ones taking the initiative
00:03:47.680 | and just extending love and grace to people around us,
00:03:51.360 | initiating friendship, doing what we can to serve others.
00:03:54.720 | So that was the first thing was just realizing
00:03:56.560 | that just changed the way I spoke
00:03:59.280 | and changed the way I related to some of these guys.
00:04:01.080 | I just thought I need to,
00:04:02.460 | the first thing I need to do is reassure them
00:04:05.200 | of what I'm not.
00:04:06.600 | Now, the second thing I realized is,
00:04:08.440 | and it's a bit of a cliche,
00:04:09.480 | but the importance of listening well is huge.
00:04:14.080 | There's a passage I've been reflecting on a lot recently
00:04:16.920 | that I think actually is very useful for this whole area.
00:04:19.480 | It's Proverbs 18, verse 13.
00:04:22.480 | "If one gives an answer before he hears,
00:04:25.840 | it is his folly and shame."
00:04:27.840 | If one gives an answer before he hears,
00:04:29.980 | it's his folly and shame.
00:04:31.960 | And I think too often we've been in kind of,
00:04:34.840 | I've got to have my spiel that I've got to say to people.
00:04:38.320 | Actually, I find the more I listen to someone,
00:04:41.160 | particularly in this context,
00:04:43.200 | actually the much sharper my instinct is
00:04:46.000 | than of where I need to begin
00:04:48.200 | in sharing something of Christ.
00:04:49.960 | The more I've heard them,
00:04:52.280 | the more I will have a sense of who they are,
00:04:54.200 | where they've come from, where they're at,
00:04:56.260 | and therefore where to start.
00:04:58.200 | That's been huge for me.
00:04:59.520 | And I found generally if I'm engaging with someone
00:05:04.360 | in that kind of context,
00:05:05.640 | and they talk about being part of the LGBT society,
00:05:09.200 | or whatever it might be,
00:05:10.400 | just for me to say,
00:05:11.240 | I'd just love to hear a bit more of your story.
00:05:12.520 | If you feel comfortable sharing it with me,
00:05:14.160 | it would be a real privilege to just hear a little bit
00:05:16.280 | about how things have been for you on this issue.
00:05:19.600 | And generally by the time I've had a few minutes,
00:05:22.560 | or even longer to do that,
00:05:24.560 | I get a sense of whether they've been wounded
00:05:28.080 | by some of the things that they've gone through,
00:05:29.560 | whether they are, you know,
00:05:31.600 | there can be any number of things
00:05:32.740 | going on behind the surface.
00:05:34.600 | And it just gives me a sense of whether I need to start
00:05:37.960 | with the compassion of Christ,
00:05:39.680 | whether I need to start with the way in which
00:05:41.520 | Christ humbles us,
00:05:43.320 | or whatever else it might be,
00:05:44.480 | but listening has helped.
00:05:45.960 | And then I think a third thing is that,
00:05:49.080 | again, people assume that we are unjust and harmful
00:05:54.080 | in what we believe as Bible believing Christians
00:05:57.800 | about sexuality.
00:05:59.680 | And so one of the things I want to try and show
00:06:02.200 | as far as possible is that Jesus treats us the same.
00:06:07.200 | The gospel puts us in the same boat.
00:06:10.280 | And so a principle I've taken from that
00:06:12.600 | is not to say to someone what I can't say to everyone.
00:06:16.160 | I can think of an event I was at recently,
00:06:17.680 | a young lady came up to me afterwards and said,
00:06:19.920 | "Well, I'm a lesbian, so what do you think about?"
00:06:22.280 | And my response to her was to say,
00:06:23.640 | "Well, actually Jesus has some really interesting things
00:06:26.560 | "to say about sexuality to all of us."
00:06:29.440 | And she said, "Oh, well, why, what does he say?"
00:06:31.160 | And I talked a little bit about how Jesus shows
00:06:33.240 | that there's a kind of a brokenness,
00:06:35.560 | there's a skewedness to all of us
00:06:38.480 | that plays out even in our sexuality
00:06:40.520 | for every single one of us.
00:06:42.520 | And I wanted to see how far I could go in the conversation
00:06:45.800 | without saying anything that is specific to her lesbianism.
00:06:49.320 | And I found that actually we could have a very,
00:06:50.960 | very fruitful and long conversation
00:06:52.640 | without me having to touch on her specifics.
00:06:55.600 | And I think that's important
00:06:56.720 | because she's not gonna properly hear
00:06:59.600 | what Jesus thinks of her specific situation
00:07:02.760 | unless she's heard what Jesus says to all of us.
00:07:05.520 | So I wanted her to realize before we got to her,
00:07:09.080 | I wanted her to realize how the gospel levels
00:07:11.320 | are playing field, how we're, again,
00:07:13.480 | we're all in the same boat.
00:07:15.240 | And again, I found that as being very, very,
00:07:18.040 | that seems to be very fruitful.
00:07:19.960 | I had a conversation with one student who came up to me
00:07:23.440 | and said, "I'm not a Christian, I'm gay,
00:07:25.760 | "but I'm reading Mark's gospel at the moment."
00:07:29.000 | And he said he'd started going to a church
00:07:30.800 | and I asked him what was drawing him to Christian things.
00:07:33.760 | And he said, "Well, I realized
00:07:35.520 | "that Jesus treats me the same."
00:07:37.760 | He said, "I've been part of a community
00:07:40.520 | "that has always said we are different and we are special,
00:07:43.840 | "that we have a parade and everyone else celebrates us."
00:07:47.720 | But he said, "I realized that Jesus treats me the same
00:07:51.040 | "and actually I don't want to be different."
00:07:53.400 | And it just hit me that actually there is a kind of equality
00:07:58.400 | you get with the message of Jesus
00:08:00.680 | that you don't get in a secular society
00:08:03.120 | that prides itself on equality.
00:08:05.240 | So that's helped me just to think,
00:08:08.040 | okay, I'm not gonna say to someone
00:08:09.280 | what I can't say to everyone,
00:08:10.800 | just because I'm trying to show them
00:08:12.920 | the gospel isn't unfair, it has the same humbling,
00:08:16.560 | challenging message to all of us
00:08:20.000 | that will work its way out in slightly different ways,
00:08:21.920 | but I wanted them to know that actually,
00:08:24.440 | the ground around the cross is level ground.
00:08:28.480 | And then the final thing that I've really got
00:08:30.240 | from those encounters is just,
00:08:32.640 | there is an openness to the gospel.
00:08:34.960 | A lot of these folks that I've met certainly,
00:08:39.080 | actually they know they're lost
00:08:41.280 | and they just don't know where to look.
00:08:43.360 | And obviously if you start a conversation
00:08:44.880 | with what you think about the ethics of gay sex,
00:08:47.720 | you're probably not gonna get very far.
00:08:49.760 | But when I start talking about what the Bible says about,
00:08:52.160 | say, identity or what the Bible says about intimacy,
00:08:56.520 | I find people are really interested
00:08:58.320 | because some of it they've half sensed
00:09:00.480 | in their own experience
00:09:01.520 | that something doesn't quite add up.
00:09:03.720 | And so when I talk about how the Bible shows us
00:09:07.160 | we can live without sex,
00:09:08.240 | but we're not meant to live without intimacy
00:09:11.400 | and that the Bible has a much broader way
00:09:14.360 | of thinking about intimacy than we do,
00:09:17.000 | people are really dialed in.
00:09:18.560 | So in our culture,
00:09:20.120 | we've pretty much collapsed sex and intimacy
00:09:23.120 | into each other.
00:09:24.440 | So we find it very hard to conceive of intimacy
00:09:26.920 | that isn't ultimately sexual.
00:09:28.720 | But the Bible shows us you can have plenty of sex
00:09:30.840 | without having intimacy.
00:09:32.560 | And it also shows us you can have plenty of intimacy
00:09:34.520 | without having sex.
00:09:35.640 | And I find that has a lot of students asking questions
00:09:40.360 | 'cause they've sort of partially sensed some of that,
00:09:44.880 | but they've just never heard it that way before.
00:09:47.240 | And actually to commend biblical wisdom to them is,
00:09:49.520 | I think, so I've had some really wonderful opportunities.
00:09:52.720 | So I think there is a harvest field.
00:09:56.000 | My message to people who are pastors
00:09:58.520 | when it comes to issues of human sexuality
00:10:00.480 | is your job is not to duck the issue.
00:10:03.320 | Your job is not even just to hold the line,
00:10:05.320 | your job is to win people.
00:10:07.360 | And the gospel is good news
00:10:09.640 | in whichever area of life we apply it.
00:10:12.240 | That is no less the case when we apply it
00:10:14.080 | to the issues of human sexuality.
00:10:15.560 | We're giving people good news, not bad news.
00:10:18.800 | And we can have great confidence in that.
00:10:20.400 | So I just think we need to,
00:10:23.200 | we need to have the right posture, the right tone.
00:10:24.880 | We need to go with humility and grace.
00:10:27.880 | I think we need to be of service.
00:10:29.200 | We need to be approaching some of these groupings
00:10:32.480 | and to say, you know, what can we do to serve you?
00:10:37.320 | How can we help?
00:10:38.760 | But I think when the initial hesitation
00:10:41.160 | and nervousness of being around Bible-believing Christians,
00:10:44.760 | when that kind of calms down,
00:10:46.160 | people, you can have some very, very fruitful conversations.
00:10:50.160 | And wonderfully, there is a harvest
00:10:54.000 | within the gay community.
00:10:55.440 | And so, woe to us if we are not actually engaging
00:11:00.280 | in that task of proclaiming Christ there.
00:11:03.720 | - Sam, very insightful counsel, brother.
00:11:05.840 | That's a lot of practical wisdom to process
00:11:08.040 | and to think through.
00:11:09.720 | Thank you for your time over these past few days.
00:11:11.480 | As always, it's great to catch up with you.
00:11:13.840 | - Oh, it's been my pleasure.
00:11:14.680 | Thanks so much for having me, Tony.
00:11:15.920 | - Anytime, Sam.
00:11:16.840 | That was Sam Albury, author, speaker
00:11:20.040 | for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
00:11:22.480 | and minister at St. Mary's Maidenhead Anglican Church
00:11:25.160 | in the UK.
00:11:26.400 | He joined us from his office in Oxford.
00:11:28.960 | I'm your host, Tony Reinke.
00:11:30.560 | We will return on Friday with John Piper himself.
00:11:33.200 | He'll be back.
00:11:34.080 | We'll see you then.
00:11:35.040 | (upbeat music)
00:11:37.640 | (upbeat music)
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