(upbeat music) - We are back one last time with Sam Albury, an author, speaker, and minister at St. Mary's Maidenhead Anglican Church in the UK. And he joins us from his office in Oxford. Sam, I wanna talk with you about the sexual identity conversations you've had specifically on secular college campuses.

This is a huge question facing pastors and leaders. These conversations are as potentially volatile as they are potent for good. Obviously, speaking of sexual practices and self-identity with biblical conviction and with humility, these are conversations that open outreach opportunities like few other things do. From your experience, what have you learned from publicly engaging LGBT societies on campus and how can we steward these types of conversations well?

- Yeah, thank you. It's no surprise to anyone that this is a huge issue on our campuses at the moment. And my suspicion is that the majority of people who are in ministry in campus contexts are pretty fearful of how this issue may play out for them. There's the fear that if you kind of say anything remotely orthodox and biblical on this issue, that you'll be shut down immediately, that you'll have massive amounts of opposition.

That is certainly a possibility, but nevertheless, I think there are, there are just some wonderful opportunities to engage on this issue. And my encouragement to pastors and to campus ministries out there is that actually, there's a harvest to be had on this issue. So I've had some experience of doing this, not a huge amount by any means, but I've had a few opportunities to go onto secular campuses, to talk and engage with secular LGBT students and I've really enjoyed it.

I mean, it's been, I'll be honest, it's been a bit scary at times 'cause you never quite know what kind of reaction you're going to get, but I've really enjoyed it. And there's a few things that have been quite key takeaways for me. The first is that actually many of these people, we are nervous of because we think everyone is an activist and is out to kind of jump up and down on us.

One of the things that was a bit of a revelation to me was that actually a lot of these students, particularly in the LGBT societies on campus, they were more fearful of me than I was of them. - Wow. - I remember giving a talk once at an event that was co-sponsored by the campus LGBT society.

So a lot of their members were present and there was an opportunity for people to line up behind the microphone and ask me questions. And I could hear a few voices kind of cracking as they would ask a question and I initially thought that was a sign of anger.

And as I got to listen to these people, I began to realize, no, no, that's fear. And it was a revelation to me because I don't think anyone's ever been frightened of me in my life. And it actually broke my heart that these students were because they thought I hated them.

They thought I was out to kind of have a go at them and to attack them. And I found that heartbreaking because I was there to represent the Prince of Peace. I was there to represent the most loving person who ever lived. And it just made me realize that the onus is on us as believers to show that we are for people and not against them, that we care for them, that we don't hate them, that we want to know them.

And I think we assume we are the target, everyone else is the aggressor. And so we're in defensive posture. Actually, I think we need to be the ones taking the initiative and just extending love and grace to people around us, initiating friendship, doing what we can to serve others.

So that was the first thing was just realizing that just changed the way I spoke and changed the way I related to some of these guys. I just thought I need to, the first thing I need to do is reassure them of what I'm not. Now, the second thing I realized is, and it's a bit of a cliche, but the importance of listening well is huge.

There's a passage I've been reflecting on a lot recently that I think actually is very useful for this whole area. It's Proverbs 18, verse 13. "If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame." If one gives an answer before he hears, it's his folly and shame.

And I think too often we've been in kind of, I've got to have my spiel that I've got to say to people. Actually, I find the more I listen to someone, particularly in this context, actually the much sharper my instinct is than of where I need to begin in sharing something of Christ.

The more I've heard them, the more I will have a sense of who they are, where they've come from, where they're at, and therefore where to start. That's been huge for me. And I found generally if I'm engaging with someone in that kind of context, and they talk about being part of the LGBT society, or whatever it might be, just for me to say, I'd just love to hear a bit more of your story.

If you feel comfortable sharing it with me, it would be a real privilege to just hear a little bit about how things have been for you on this issue. And generally by the time I've had a few minutes, or even longer to do that, I get a sense of whether they've been wounded by some of the things that they've gone through, whether they are, you know, there can be any number of things going on behind the surface.

And it just gives me a sense of whether I need to start with the compassion of Christ, whether I need to start with the way in which Christ humbles us, or whatever else it might be, but listening has helped. And then I think a third thing is that, again, people assume that we are unjust and harmful in what we believe as Bible believing Christians about sexuality.

And so one of the things I want to try and show as far as possible is that Jesus treats us the same. The gospel puts us in the same boat. And so a principle I've taken from that is not to say to someone what I can't say to everyone.

I can think of an event I was at recently, a young lady came up to me afterwards and said, "Well, I'm a lesbian, so what do you think about?" And my response to her was to say, "Well, actually Jesus has some really interesting things "to say about sexuality to all of us." And she said, "Oh, well, why, what does he say?" And I talked a little bit about how Jesus shows that there's a kind of a brokenness, there's a skewedness to all of us that plays out even in our sexuality for every single one of us.

And I wanted to see how far I could go in the conversation without saying anything that is specific to her lesbianism. And I found that actually we could have a very, very fruitful and long conversation without me having to touch on her specifics. And I think that's important because she's not gonna properly hear what Jesus thinks of her specific situation unless she's heard what Jesus says to all of us.

So I wanted her to realize before we got to her, I wanted her to realize how the gospel levels are playing field, how we're, again, we're all in the same boat. And again, I found that as being very, very, that seems to be very fruitful. I had a conversation with one student who came up to me and said, "I'm not a Christian, I'm gay, "but I'm reading Mark's gospel at the moment." And he said he'd started going to a church and I asked him what was drawing him to Christian things.

And he said, "Well, I realized "that Jesus treats me the same." He said, "I've been part of a community "that has always said we are different and we are special, "that we have a parade and everyone else celebrates us." But he said, "I realized that Jesus treats me the same "and actually I don't want to be different." And it just hit me that actually there is a kind of equality you get with the message of Jesus that you don't get in a secular society that prides itself on equality.

So that's helped me just to think, okay, I'm not gonna say to someone what I can't say to everyone, just because I'm trying to show them the gospel isn't unfair, it has the same humbling, challenging message to all of us that will work its way out in slightly different ways, but I wanted them to know that actually, the ground around the cross is level ground.

And then the final thing that I've really got from those encounters is just, there is an openness to the gospel. A lot of these folks that I've met certainly, actually they know they're lost and they just don't know where to look. And obviously if you start a conversation with what you think about the ethics of gay sex, you're probably not gonna get very far.

But when I start talking about what the Bible says about, say, identity or what the Bible says about intimacy, I find people are really interested because some of it they've half sensed in their own experience that something doesn't quite add up. And so when I talk about how the Bible shows us we can live without sex, but we're not meant to live without intimacy and that the Bible has a much broader way of thinking about intimacy than we do, people are really dialed in.

So in our culture, we've pretty much collapsed sex and intimacy into each other. So we find it very hard to conceive of intimacy that isn't ultimately sexual. But the Bible shows us you can have plenty of sex without having intimacy. And it also shows us you can have plenty of intimacy without having sex.

And I find that has a lot of students asking questions 'cause they've sort of partially sensed some of that, but they've just never heard it that way before. And actually to commend biblical wisdom to them is, I think, so I've had some really wonderful opportunities. So I think there is a harvest field.

My message to people who are pastors when it comes to issues of human sexuality is your job is not to duck the issue. Your job is not even just to hold the line, your job is to win people. And the gospel is good news in whichever area of life we apply it.

That is no less the case when we apply it to the issues of human sexuality. We're giving people good news, not bad news. And we can have great confidence in that. So I just think we need to, we need to have the right posture, the right tone. We need to go with humility and grace.

I think we need to be of service. We need to be approaching some of these groupings and to say, you know, what can we do to serve you? How can we help? But I think when the initial hesitation and nervousness of being around Bible-believing Christians, when that kind of calms down, people, you can have some very, very fruitful conversations.

And wonderfully, there is a harvest within the gay community. And so, woe to us if we are not actually engaging in that task of proclaiming Christ there. - Sam, very insightful counsel, brother. That's a lot of practical wisdom to process and to think through. Thank you for your time over these past few days.

As always, it's great to catch up with you. - Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, Tony. - Anytime, Sam. That was Sam Albury, author, speaker for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and minister at St. Mary's Maidenhead Anglican Church in the UK. He joined us from his office in Oxford.

I'm your host, Tony Reinke. We will return on Friday with John Piper himself. He'll be back. We'll see you then. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)