Should Children Sit Through “Big Church”?

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.580 | - Robert from Columbia, South Carolina

00:00:07.380 | writes in to ask this, "Pastor John,

00:00:09.240 | "I'm wondering if there are situations

00:00:10.700 | "in which a separate children's time

00:00:12.420 | "in Sunday school rooms,

00:00:13.600 | "completely apart from the Sunday gathering,

00:00:15.460 | "are necessary.

00:00:17.280 | "Our church is wrestling through the issue now

00:00:19.460 | "as many families have infants,

00:00:21.800 | "some have wandering and noisy toddlers.

00:00:24.640 | "There are rambunctious five-year-olds

00:00:26.840 | "and we also have three children of varying ages

00:00:29.380 | "with special needs like autism and Down syndrome.

00:00:32.860 | "The struggle is most parents want a break

00:00:35.340 | "and thus desire the separate time for children

00:00:38.200 | "while the adult service is going on,

00:00:39.900 | "yet the children workers wish they were

00:00:41.520 | "in the adult service and feel limited

00:00:43.600 | "in their ability to control the behavior of the children.

00:00:47.240 | "What should we as a church do?"

00:00:49.840 | - Well, I hope there's a strong leader in your church

00:00:54.120 | because weak leaders will never be able

00:00:57.800 | to stand up against the onslaught of a criticism

00:01:02.800 | that's gonna come if you try to do what I'm gonna suggest.

00:01:06.420 | - Oh my.

00:01:07.260 | - When I came to Bethlehem as a pastor in 1980,

00:01:13.000 | one of the first issues I had to deal with

00:01:16.480 | was about the children in worship

00:01:18.320 | and they all wanted to know,

00:01:19.880 | we didn't have a lot of them,

00:01:20.820 | but they were starting to come,

00:01:22.480 | what are we gonna do?

00:01:23.320 | We're gonna have a children's sermon in the middle,

00:01:25.360 | a little three-minute dealing

00:01:27.320 | where the children walk to the front,

00:01:28.600 | are we gonna have children's church

00:01:31.160 | and then they come back in maybe

00:01:32.600 | if they don't disappear when they're 13

00:01:34.420 | or what are we going to do?

00:01:37.360 | And Noel and I, my wife, we teamed up.

00:01:40.960 | We haven't done this quite like this since.

00:01:43.480 | We teamed up 'cause we both felt

00:01:45.040 | unbelievably strongly about this

00:01:46.800 | and we staked our lives on it.

00:01:49.620 | We teamed up and wrote a paper for our people

00:01:53.960 | arguing that we not have children's church

00:01:56.760 | and that we not have a mini children's sermon

00:01:59.320 | in the service, but that parents

00:02:01.600 | or other responsible adults,

00:02:03.440 | if kids don't have Christian parents,

00:02:06.520 | bring their children to the service

00:02:09.880 | after about four years old.

00:02:13.080 | We provided a nursery 'til then

00:02:14.840 | and eventually those nurseries,

00:02:16.680 | I put it in quotes, became very God-focused

00:02:21.360 | and nurturing times to help get little children

00:02:26.080 | oriented on God and ready to go

00:02:27.960 | with mom and dad to the big service.

00:02:30.080 | That article that we wrote is

00:02:31.480 | is at the Desiring God website.

00:02:33.000 | It's called The Family, Together in God's Presence.

00:02:36.880 | And I'm gonna quote from it,

00:02:41.360 | but I'm gonna leave off the very thing

00:02:43.520 | everybody wants to know, namely how do you control kids?

00:02:46.520 | And that's the part my wife wrote.

00:02:48.440 | And so if what I say here is at least provocative enough

00:02:51.920 | to get your interest, then go to the website

00:02:54.120 | and search for the article

00:02:56.720 | and read what my wife had to say about that.

00:02:58.760 | But I think really the big issue is concepts of worship

00:03:03.400 | and concepts of parenting and concepts

00:03:05.320 | of how things are transmitted to kids.

00:03:08.320 | So let me just give a few thoughts from that article.

00:03:13.080 | God-centered worship is supremely important

00:03:18.080 | in family life and in the life of the church.

00:03:21.600 | We approached Sunday morning worship hour

00:03:25.200 | in my 33 years in the pastorate

00:03:27.880 | with tremendous seriousness and earnestness and expectancy.

00:03:32.880 | And don't hear those words as contrary to joy.

00:03:35.920 | Think serious joy.

00:03:37.560 | Think deep joy.

00:03:39.440 | We were and are a happy people at Bethlehem.

00:03:43.200 | We tried to banish, however,

00:03:45.440 | all that is flippant and trivial and chatty and chipper

00:03:51.560 | I just abominate chipper worship services.

00:03:55.200 | Not all services had this flavor.

00:03:58.760 | Sunday morning we called the Mount of Transfiguration,

00:04:01.880 | meaning an awesome place of glory

00:04:04.480 | where you fall on your face almost speechless

00:04:06.720 | in the presence of God.

00:04:07.760 | And Sunday evening or Wednesday evening

00:04:10.280 | or whenever you do whatever else you do

00:04:13.080 | is the Mount of Olives, which was the familiar spot

00:04:16.960 | where Jesus probably laid down,

00:04:18.880 | put his hand on his elbow and talked things over

00:04:22.240 | with his disciples.

00:04:24.040 | That's utterly crucial in the church as well.

00:04:26.960 | We didn't have a children's sermon

00:04:29.600 | as part of the Sunday morning service.

00:04:31.120 | We believed that even though it might be fun for the kids

00:04:34.160 | in the long run, it would weaken the spiritual intensity

00:04:37.800 | of our worship.

00:04:39.480 | To everything there is a season.

00:04:42.800 | That's so crucial.

00:04:43.920 | People think you gotta put everything

00:04:46.120 | in the Sunday morning service or take it out.

00:04:48.440 | It seemed to us that for at least one hour,

00:04:52.880 | one hour a week out of 168,

00:04:56.480 | we should sustain a maximum intensity of moving reverence.

00:05:01.480 | I'm gonna say that again 'cause I really like that phrase.

00:05:06.040 | A sustained maximum intensity of moving reverence.

00:05:11.040 | And our arguments for bringing children to worship,

00:05:17.560 | of course, will only carry weight

00:05:20.720 | with parents who really love that,

00:05:22.960 | who really love to meet God in worship

00:05:26.520 | and really want their kids to get that

00:05:30.240 | and grow up breathing that air.

00:05:33.800 | The greatest stumbling block for children in worship

00:05:37.960 | is parents who don't cherish doing that worship.

00:05:42.960 | They don't love it.

00:05:45.600 | Children can feel the difference between duty and delight.

00:05:50.600 | They know if dad loves being here.

00:05:55.400 | So the first and most important job of a parent

00:05:59.880 | is to fall in love with the worship of God.

00:06:04.120 | Any sense of being there out of duty

00:06:07.200 | or being forced to or some other reason besides,

00:06:12.000 | I love being here, kids know that.

00:06:15.280 | And they'll hate it just like you do deep down.

00:06:19.160 | You can't impart what you don't possess.

00:06:23.320 | And this is what you want your children to catch.

00:06:25.800 | You want them to catch authentic worship.

00:06:28.680 | Authentic, heartfelt worship

00:06:31.800 | is the most valuable thing in human experience.

00:06:36.800 | Think of it, the cumulative effect

00:06:39.920 | of 650 worship services spent with mom and dad

00:06:45.920 | in authentic communion with God and his people

00:06:49.520 | between the ages of four and 17 is utterly incalculable.

00:06:54.520 | The aim is that the children catch the passion

00:07:00.240 | for worshiping God by watching mom and dad

00:07:03.600 | enjoy God week after week.

00:07:06.120 | What would be the impact if for 12 years

00:07:09.720 | the children saw dad with his face in his hands

00:07:13.800 | praying during the prelude to worship?

00:07:16.360 | What would be the impact if they saw mom

00:07:20.440 | and both of them beaming with joy

00:07:23.000 | and singing the praises of God?

00:07:25.440 | Just think of it, millions and millions of children

00:07:28.480 | never, never see their parents sing,

00:07:31.800 | let alone sing songs with joy to a great God.

00:07:36.440 | Something really seems wrong to me

00:07:39.360 | when parents want to take their children

00:07:42.380 | in the most formative years

00:07:44.960 | and put them with other children and other adults

00:07:49.960 | to shape their attitude and behavior in worship

00:07:54.080 | rather than having them right there to shape them.

00:07:57.920 | Why wouldn't parents be jealous

00:08:00.440 | to model for their children the tremendous value

00:08:04.640 | that they put on joyful reverence

00:08:07.080 | in the presence of Almighty God?

00:08:10.240 | Of course, it's over their head.

00:08:12.660 | It's supposed to be over their head.

00:08:14.780 | They're beginners.

00:08:17.300 | The English language is over their head

00:08:19.640 | as soon as they come out of the womb.

00:08:21.460 | But we don't say, well, let's put them with other children

00:08:24.640 | in their own situations and limitations

00:08:27.580 | so that they can understand a word or two.

00:08:30.000 | No, we immerse them in the English language every day

00:08:35.000 | that they don't understand 90% of

00:08:37.680 | in the hope and expectation

00:08:39.340 | that they grow up into joyful use of the English language.

00:08:43.720 | Long before children understand fully

00:08:46.020 | what's going on in worship and what's sung and what's said,

00:08:49.940 | they're absorbing tremendous amounts of what is valuable.

00:08:54.940 | And this is true even if they say they're bored.

00:08:59.420 | Music and words become familiar.

00:09:02.540 | The message of the music starts to sink in.

00:09:05.620 | The form of the service starts to feel natural.

00:09:08.780 | Even if most of the sermon goes right over their heads,

00:09:12.260 | experience has shown that children hear

00:09:15.220 | and remember remarkable things.

00:09:19.020 | The content of the prayers and the songs and the sermon

00:09:22.460 | gives parents unparalleled opportunities

00:09:25.860 | to teach their children the great truths of the faith.

00:09:28.540 | What an opportunity.

00:09:29.700 | If parents would only learn to query their children

00:09:32.820 | after the service and then explain things to them,

00:09:36.540 | it would become enormously valuable

00:09:39.420 | for their long-term growth in the knowledge of God.

00:09:43.140 | There is a sense of solemnity and awe

00:09:47.260 | which children should experience in the presence of God.

00:09:52.100 | They should sense this is a sacred moment, a sacred place.

00:09:57.100 | This is not likely to be happening in children's church.

00:10:01.140 | And unfortunately, it's not likely to happen

00:10:04.740 | in many adult services that put a high premium

00:10:07.540 | on horizontal chatter, chatter, chatter,

00:10:09.820 | rather than vertical joy.

00:10:12.420 | The aim is to awaken them to the greatness

00:10:15.740 | and majesty of God,

00:10:17.380 | not just his tenderness and familiarity.

00:10:20.980 | So those are some of the thoughts

00:10:23.540 | of why it is so valuable to have children in worship.

00:10:28.540 | There is so much more to be said,

00:10:32.300 | especially about the kind of parenting

00:10:34.620 | and discipline at home that make all of this possible.

00:10:38.660 | But you can go to the article for that

00:10:41.100 | and see what Noelle and I wrote about discipline.

00:10:44.300 | The bottom line is, heartfelt, passionate encounters

00:10:48.940 | with the living God in worship

00:10:50.940 | should be the greatest desire of a parent's heart.

00:10:54.540 | And there's no better place or time to impart this

00:10:59.180 | than with mom and dad doing it together

00:11:01.140 | with the children in worship.

00:11:04.380 | - That certainly is provocative.

00:11:05.780 | Thank you, Pastor John.

00:11:06.660 | And again, that article can be found at DesiringGod.org.

00:11:09.620 | It's titled "The Family Together,

00:11:11.460 | Together in God's Presence."

00:11:13.380 | Thank you, Pastor John, and thanks for listening.

00:11:15.020 | For more details about this podcast,

00:11:16.980 | to catch up on the past episodes

00:11:18.260 | or to subscribe to the audio feed

00:11:19.900 | or even send us a question of your own,

00:11:21.420 | go online to DesiringGod.org/AskPastorJohn.

00:11:25.620 | Tomorrow, we feel the question

00:11:28.620 | about Pastor John's position on divorce and remarriage.

00:11:32.020 | It's a very common question we get

00:11:33.540 | about second marriages.

00:11:35.700 | We'll talk about that tomorrow.

00:11:37.300 | I am your host, Tony Reinhke.

00:11:38.780 | We'll see you tomorrow.

00:11:39.940 | (upbeat music)

00:11:42.540 | (upbeat music)

00:11:45.140 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Should Children Sit Through “Big Church”?

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