(upbeat music) - Robert from Columbia, South Carolina writes in to ask this, "Pastor John, "I'm wondering if there are situations "in which a separate children's time "in Sunday school rooms, "completely apart from the Sunday gathering, "are necessary. "Our church is wrestling through the issue now "as many families have infants, "some have wandering and noisy toddlers.

"There are rambunctious five-year-olds "and we also have three children of varying ages "with special needs like autism and Down syndrome. "The struggle is most parents want a break "and thus desire the separate time for children "while the adult service is going on, "yet the children workers wish they were "in the adult service and feel limited "in their ability to control the behavior of the children.

"What should we as a church do?" - Well, I hope there's a strong leader in your church because weak leaders will never be able to stand up against the onslaught of a criticism that's gonna come if you try to do what I'm gonna suggest. - Oh my. - When I came to Bethlehem as a pastor in 1980, one of the first issues I had to deal with was about the children in worship and they all wanted to know, we didn't have a lot of them, but they were starting to come, what are we gonna do?

We're gonna have a children's sermon in the middle, a little three-minute dealing where the children walk to the front, are we gonna have children's church and then they come back in maybe if they don't disappear when they're 13 or what are we going to do? And Noel and I, my wife, we teamed up.

We haven't done this quite like this since. We teamed up 'cause we both felt unbelievably strongly about this and we staked our lives on it. We teamed up and wrote a paper for our people arguing that we not have children's church and that we not have a mini children's sermon in the service, but that parents or other responsible adults, if kids don't have Christian parents, bring their children to the service after about four years old.

We provided a nursery 'til then and eventually those nurseries, I put it in quotes, became very God-focused and nurturing times to help get little children oriented on God and ready to go with mom and dad to the big service. That article that we wrote is is at the Desiring God website.

It's called The Family, Together in God's Presence. And I'm gonna quote from it, but I'm gonna leave off the very thing everybody wants to know, namely how do you control kids? And that's the part my wife wrote. And so if what I say here is at least provocative enough to get your interest, then go to the website and search for the article and read what my wife had to say about that.

But I think really the big issue is concepts of worship and concepts of parenting and concepts of how things are transmitted to kids. So let me just give a few thoughts from that article. God-centered worship is supremely important in family life and in the life of the church. We approached Sunday morning worship hour in my 33 years in the pastorate with tremendous seriousness and earnestness and expectancy.

And don't hear those words as contrary to joy. Think serious joy. Think deep joy. We were and are a happy people at Bethlehem. We tried to banish, however, all that is flippant and trivial and chatty and chipper I just abominate chipper worship services. Not all services had this flavor.

Sunday morning we called the Mount of Transfiguration, meaning an awesome place of glory where you fall on your face almost speechless in the presence of God. And Sunday evening or Wednesday evening or whenever you do whatever else you do is the Mount of Olives, which was the familiar spot where Jesus probably laid down, put his hand on his elbow and talked things over with his disciples.

That's utterly crucial in the church as well. We didn't have a children's sermon as part of the Sunday morning service. We believed that even though it might be fun for the kids in the long run, it would weaken the spiritual intensity of our worship. To everything there is a season.

That's so crucial. People think you gotta put everything in the Sunday morning service or take it out. It seemed to us that for at least one hour, one hour a week out of 168, we should sustain a maximum intensity of moving reverence. I'm gonna say that again 'cause I really like that phrase.

A sustained maximum intensity of moving reverence. And our arguments for bringing children to worship, of course, will only carry weight with parents who really love that, who really love to meet God in worship and really want their kids to get that and grow up breathing that air. The greatest stumbling block for children in worship is parents who don't cherish doing that worship.

They don't love it. Children can feel the difference between duty and delight. They know if dad loves being here. So the first and most important job of a parent is to fall in love with the worship of God. Any sense of being there out of duty or being forced to or some other reason besides, I love being here, kids know that.

And they'll hate it just like you do deep down. You can't impart what you don't possess. And this is what you want your children to catch. You want them to catch authentic worship. Authentic, heartfelt worship is the most valuable thing in human experience. Think of it, the cumulative effect of 650 worship services spent with mom and dad in authentic communion with God and his people between the ages of four and 17 is utterly incalculable.

The aim is that the children catch the passion for worshiping God by watching mom and dad enjoy God week after week. What would be the impact if for 12 years the children saw dad with his face in his hands praying during the prelude to worship? What would be the impact if they saw mom and both of them beaming with joy and singing the praises of God?

Just think of it, millions and millions of children never, never see their parents sing, let alone sing songs with joy to a great God. Something really seems wrong to me when parents want to take their children in the most formative years and put them with other children and other adults to shape their attitude and behavior in worship rather than having them right there to shape them.

Why wouldn't parents be jealous to model for their children the tremendous value that they put on joyful reverence in the presence of Almighty God? Of course, it's over their head. It's supposed to be over their head. They're beginners. The English language is over their head as soon as they come out of the womb.

But we don't say, well, let's put them with other children in their own situations and limitations so that they can understand a word or two. No, we immerse them in the English language every day that they don't understand 90% of in the hope and expectation that they grow up into joyful use of the English language.

Long before children understand fully what's going on in worship and what's sung and what's said, they're absorbing tremendous amounts of what is valuable. And this is true even if they say they're bored. Music and words become familiar. The message of the music starts to sink in. The form of the service starts to feel natural.

Even if most of the sermon goes right over their heads, experience has shown that children hear and remember remarkable things. The content of the prayers and the songs and the sermon gives parents unparalleled opportunities to teach their children the great truths of the faith. What an opportunity. If parents would only learn to query their children after the service and then explain things to them, it would become enormously valuable for their long-term growth in the knowledge of God.

There is a sense of solemnity and awe which children should experience in the presence of God. They should sense this is a sacred moment, a sacred place. This is not likely to be happening in children's church. And unfortunately, it's not likely to happen in many adult services that put a high premium on horizontal chatter, chatter, chatter, rather than vertical joy.

The aim is to awaken them to the greatness and majesty of God, not just his tenderness and familiarity. So those are some of the thoughts of why it is so valuable to have children in worship. There is so much more to be said, especially about the kind of parenting and discipline at home that make all of this possible.

But you can go to the article for that and see what Noelle and I wrote about discipline. The bottom line is, heartfelt, passionate encounters with the living God in worship should be the greatest desire of a parent's heart. And there's no better place or time to impart this than with mom and dad doing it together with the children in worship.

- That certainly is provocative. Thank you, Pastor John. And again, that article can be found at DesiringGod.org. It's titled "The Family Together, Together in God's Presence." Thank you, Pastor John, and thanks for listening. For more details about this podcast, to catch up on the past episodes or to subscribe to the audio feed or even send us a question of your own, go online to DesiringGod.org/AskPastorJohn.

Tomorrow, we feel the question about Pastor John's position on divorce and remarriage. It's a very common question we get about second marriages. We'll talk about that tomorrow. I am your host, Tony Reinhke. We'll see you tomorrow. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)