Ep.7 - Ministry Malpractice Reactions With Pastor Ed
00:00:00.000 | Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the official, unofficial Grace Point podcast.
00:00:10.260 | I'm Stephen. I'm Isaiah. We are your co-hosts, and we are in the middle of a series called
00:00:14.440 | Why the Hate? We try to answer the question, why does our church get so much hate online?
00:00:18.780 | And it's a special episode today. We have a very special guest. Yeah, I guess today we're
00:00:22.900 | the official Grace Point podcast because today we have Pastor Ed, a.k.a. my dad, on the show.
00:00:30.500 | And we have kind of something interesting. Who's the senior pastor of Grace Point?
00:00:33.720 | Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. He's the senior pastor of Grace Point Church, if you did not know that.
00:00:37.760 | Yeah. And we wanted to try something kind of different today. And we want to introduce...
00:00:43.940 | How about before we get into the topic? I mean, you guys see it in the title. Why don't you
00:00:47.880 | just start by introducing yourself? I don't think people know the story. I wanted to ask,
00:00:51.640 | how did you become the senior pastor of Grace Point? Because a lot of people have this impression
00:00:55.480 | that you founded the church and all this stuff. I was surprised the impression that you didn't
00:00:59.540 | and all that. So maybe just talk about that a little bit. Just like...
00:01:03.440 | You really want to go there, like the whole history?
00:01:05.280 | As much as you want. Yeah. I think people are interested.
00:01:07.960 | Okay.
00:01:08.360 | People want to know.
00:01:09.180 | Yeah. You know, that's not as straightforward as it should be. We're a 40-year-old church
00:01:16.780 | in some way. Yeah. Because it's in Berkeley where it all started. And current expression of Grace
00:01:24.680 | Point is from that period. That's true. In 1981, when I was a freshman, this church started as
00:01:31.340 | Berkeley Baptist Church. Berkeley and Oakland, Berkeley Baptist Church. I was a freshman in 81.
00:01:36.720 | The church started in 81. But I didn't join until 88. Wow.
00:01:40.820 | January of 88. We were recently married, 87. And we decided that, you know, we went to a Korean church.
00:01:49.920 | And we decided, well, we need better discipleship. We need people to mentor us. And I had known
00:01:56.240 | the leaders and my friends at Berkeley and had lots of admiration for the church. I was involved in
00:02:03.120 | youth ministry. And so I felt really obligated. I started it as a college and it just continued.
00:02:08.820 | And so we joined the church in 88. It's getting long already.
00:02:14.580 | No, no, no. It's good. It's good.
00:02:15.780 | So, yeah. So then, yeah, so I was working as a corporate lawyer in San Francisco on a big farm.
00:02:23.060 | Kelly was a coder before coders became really cool, working for Sun Microsystems.
00:02:28.820 | Wow.
00:02:29.140 | That's why we lived in Alameda. We're the only ones living in Alameda because she had a commute down to
00:02:32.900 | the South Bay. And so, and we're just lay leaders. And one day I looked at what I was doing at the law
00:02:40.340 | firm. And like, I had this moment, I was representing clients like Pechtoll and Kaiser. They really didn't
00:02:46.260 | need little Ed Kang working on their stuff. Whereas back at church, you know, and that was right when
00:02:58.100 | we were shifting into all, all English. Oh yeah. Okay. Right around we weren't 88. No, we were a
00:03:03.780 | Korean, Korean speaking, Korean culture Baptist church. I don't actually know we spoke Korean.
00:03:12.820 | So no, it was, it was exclusively Korean speaking. We're a Korean speaking church. And then, um, yeah,
00:03:20.580 | when we joined in 88, uh, actually correct that we were still largely a Korean speaking church.
00:03:27.620 | Okay. But we had started an English speaking ministry, which I think by like 1990 became
00:03:33.780 | completely exclusively English speaking, but we're always a collegiate church. So, um, so anyway,
00:03:40.260 | so we joined in 88, uh, we started, um, teaching Bible and, you know, right around in a couple of years.
00:03:46.820 | Uh, so I guess it was in 93 when, when I finally decided to, uh, leave law and do, do this full time. And,
00:03:54.420 | um, you know, my own calling story is very different from your typical, like, how did God call you into the
00:04:00.420 | ministry? And there's a certain story, uh, that you're supposed to have of like strong impression
00:04:06.340 | or, or something like that. And I never heard a voice or there, there was nothing like that. Uh,
00:04:10.740 | what it was, was I kind of looked around and, um, I was the leader, you know, like somebody's got to
00:04:16.180 | lead this thing. We're, we're, we're a poor, my first salary was $200 a month. We're a poor church.
00:04:22.340 | So everybody was bivocational. Cause if you're in collegiate ministry, that's what you're going to do.
00:04:26.100 | Yeah. Yeah. So you had a, you had a friend who said something to you, I think that kind of triggered
00:04:33.780 | the thought, right? The thing about, Oh yes. I had a really good friend who is a pastor in New York
00:04:38.820 | right now. Uh, Danny Lee. And, uh, Danny said to me one day, and he was an engineer, uh, but he would,
00:04:46.180 | he would say these like provocative things to me. Uh, and, um, he said, Hey, um, if you became a pastor
00:04:55.380 | and I became a pastor and all of our friends became pastors, cause we're all like lay ministers,
00:04:59.940 | right? Kind of loving on younger brothers, uh, best as we could with our day jobs. He said,
00:05:05.220 | that still wouldn't be enough pastors. I said, I said, yeah, you're right. Uh, and I think the world
00:05:11.620 | that we were looking at, it's, it's not like America. It's certainly not the world. What we're
00:05:14.820 | looking at is this growing group of English speaking, American born second generation.
00:05:20.500 | And at that point it was Koreans. And we looked around and none of us, and by us, I mean, English
00:05:26.980 | speaking, uh, older ones, and we were rare. Like most of my friends were way more comfortable in
00:05:32.340 | Korean. So Danny and I were, we're sort of the rare breeds. And he said, if all of us became pastors,
00:05:36.660 | that wouldn't be enough. Meaning there, there, there's so many of these, um, Korean, you know, kids
00:05:42.260 | that we can, kids, younger brothers. And so I said, no, that wouldn't be enough. And he said,
00:05:46.980 | okay, then why aren't we doing it? And my only answer was the salary, man.
00:05:52.100 | Hey, I worked hard for this job, went to law school, you know? Um, so that really convicted me.
00:06:00.260 | Um, so it was 93. I became, uh, a full time. And when did he go full time?
00:06:04.820 | He went full time.
00:06:06.980 | Years later, he held up.
00:06:08.980 | He said that and then he like,
00:06:10.740 | Like a good friend, he made you two.
00:06:11.700 | It was interesting.
00:06:12.660 | I don't know. Maybe I was an older brother that he looked up to because then he quit his, uh,
00:06:17.860 | engineering job, became a lawyer. He became a way better lawyer than I was.
00:06:20.820 | It was actually a litigator. Yeah, he was an engineer. He was an unhappy engineer.
00:06:24.820 | Uh, anyway, so I went to law school, uh, and then, and then he went to, um, and then he became full
00:06:30.260 | time. So I think he became, uh, he went into full time ministry, maybe 10 years after me, probably.
00:06:35.060 | I don't know. I forgot the timing. Um, so, so, um, make a long story short, 93, I find myself going full
00:06:44.020 | time and in charge of the college ministry at Berkeley. And then in 1994, what's the question?
00:06:50.340 | How did I become the pastor?
00:06:51.860 | How did you become the pastor?
00:06:52.660 | Even going full time, like there's that story with Kelly, like what she said to you in the car.
00:06:57.220 | Yeah. You know, my wife Kelly, she is the, um, she, she's, um, she's a PK, uh, not a typical PK,
00:07:06.020 | she was really goody two shoes PK. A lot of PK is like, you know, they, yeah,
00:07:11.540 | but a lot of PK is like they sin, like they invented it, you know? Um, so, but, um, her thing,
00:07:18.260 | and I think my thing, and probably a lot of us who grew up, um, financially struggling in the immigrant,
00:07:23.380 | uh, era, um, you know, our whole thing was, uh, just getting a foothold in America that we saw our
00:07:29.380 | parents work so hard for. And so her thing was, God, I'll, I'll serve you whatever, but not, not,
00:07:35.060 | not a pastor's wife. So, so we're visiting our friend, uh, who was living, uh, on campus at
00:07:42.660 | Golden Gate Baptist Seminary. And I still remember the little section of the, of the road between, uh,
00:07:47.140 | one-on-one and between 80 and one-on-one where she said in a, in a grudging way, Hey, if you want
00:07:52.420 | to go into full-time ministry, I'm okay with it. Uh, that, that was, but she initiated because I was
00:07:57.700 | struggling with it. I was thinking about it. It was such a relief when she said that it became very
00:08:02.100 | clear. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, uh, back to your question. So I was leading the ministry at Berkeley,
00:08:08.980 | the college. Uh, we had another bro, a friend of mine leading the, what we now call praxis,
00:08:14.500 | the post-college back then were a lot more college heavy. And then anybody who graduated college,
00:08:20.180 | they would get, they would become college staff or they would go and become praxis. And because it was
00:08:25.700 | led by someone else and the relationship was with us, then it was, um, it, I think a lot of people
00:08:32.180 | felt that as a rejection, like you didn't make the cut, you know? And so that was unhappy for them.
00:08:37.060 | It was definitely unhappy for my friend who's leading this ministry. And people come and say,
00:08:42.100 | you know, please pray for me. I'm bitter that I couldn't make it on college team. And he's like,
00:08:45.780 | what, what am I? Uh, he, he eventually went on to plant a church in San Jose and LA, uh, leaving,
00:08:53.940 | uh, the whole Berkeley church to me. Uh, and then, um, I guess, uh, the Berkeley-
00:09:00.420 | So that time you were leading the English college, the praxis and Korean? Was the Korean still around?
00:09:06.020 | Yeah. Well, that's a whole nother story. So although, although we're a Korean speaking Korean
00:09:10.900 | church, there was another Korean congregation that had started in the mid nineties, not mid nineties,
00:09:15.620 | mid, mid eighties. And that was reaching out to, so it's sort of like our international ministry,
00:09:20.100 | right? They were, they're reaching out to Korean graduate students. And so as we became more English,
00:09:24.340 | they became the more, more Korean. So then the Korean side of it continued, uh, and, and that was led by
00:09:30.420 | someone else. So we were kind of maybe two congregations in parallel. Um, unlike a lot of
00:09:35.300 | immigrant church situations, the English side became more dominant and more financially. Uh, we, and we
00:09:41.060 | eventually got to the point where we were supporting the Korean congregation financially for a while. Um,
00:09:45.940 | yeah. And then, um, and then 2006, the Berkeley network, um, all sort of became autonomous by mutual
00:09:53.860 | agreement. Uh, and from an objective church world perspective, it was very civil from an emotional
00:10:00.500 | perspective. It was like, we were all torn apart, uh, because we had pledged to bury our bones together and
00:10:06.020 | we're all close friends. And, uh, we had to break up for reasons that, you know, I don't, I don't
00:10:10.020 | necessarily want to go get into, I mean, I don't mind talking about it, but it involves other people
00:10:14.420 | and I'd rather not. Uh, but it was, uh, it, it started out as a classic church split in a way, uh, because,
00:10:21.700 | um, two churches, three churches, the Davis church, the Berkeley church and the San Jose church. Uh,
00:10:26.900 | because we're at that point, we're a network of about maybe seven churches. Uh, and, uh, we, um,
00:10:33.940 | we had some concerns with the overall direction and leadership of the church. And so it was decided
00:10:38.740 | that, uh, instead of fighting that out, that we would just go autonomous in 2006. So that would
00:10:44.420 | have been the 25th anniversary, uh, of the Berkeley movement. And then everybody else took on different
00:10:50.100 | names. And that's, that's when we took on the name grace point. Got it. Got it. Wow. Yeah. And then we,
00:10:54.900 | we, you know, in, in our other podcasts, we've kind of, the rest is history. We've talked about that a
00:10:59.460 | little bit, but I think that was really enlightening. That was really helpful. So yeah. Do you want to?
00:11:03.380 | Yeah. So, um, the kind of main agenda for today is, um, we're calling this, uh,
00:11:08.020 | kind of Pastor Ed reacts to instances of ministry malpractice.
00:11:13.460 | Oh, ministry malpractice.
00:11:15.380 | Oh, they didn't warn me about this.
00:11:18.340 | Let me just kind of back up and explain a little bit about why. So this was my idea. Um, and I would
00:11:25.220 | say, I don't know this for a fact. I've never actually asked you about this, dad, but, um, it probably like,
00:11:31.060 | if you had to name the number one and number two critics of our ministry within our church,
00:11:36.260 | I'm guessing that would be me number two and my brother, number one, probably.
00:11:41.540 | Right. Would that you, would you say that's pretty accurate?
00:11:44.420 | That's pretty accurate.
00:11:45.140 | That's pretty accurate.
00:11:45.700 | Just in terms of sheer volume.
00:11:47.140 | I don't see, I don't see a close third, you know, it's like, yeah, okay.
00:11:52.660 | No, she's too kind. And she lets you guys do all of the, all of the criticism.
00:11:56.740 | She makes us say stuff, but anyway, so, um, I'm, I don't know if people know that, but yeah, I mean,
00:12:00.900 | like I'm, we're both just critical fellows. I mean, we got it from somewhere, but, um, yeah,
00:12:06.580 | that's what we're like. And, uh, constitutionally rebellious, which you definitely got from me.
00:12:11.780 | Yeah. And, um, and kind of just up in arms type of folks. And we like to, you know, when we see
00:12:16.740 | something like, what the heck happened here? And we like to bring things up. So yeah, I mean, so I've
00:12:20.660 | had this experience a lot of, I hear about something, usually it's not to me, sometimes it's to me, but
00:12:24.900 | sometimes it's like a friend or someone else I know experienced this and I'm like, what the heck,
00:12:29.060 | what happened here? And I go to you and I'm like, why do we do things this way? And then I'm, I was,
00:12:34.580 | at least the first couple of times I did that, I was surprised to hear from you, like, what that
00:12:38.740 | happened? You know? And it was like, oh, like, cause my assumption is always just, I don't know,
00:12:43.460 | you see kind of an institution and you just assume that it's kind of this monolithic thing that,
00:12:47.940 | you know, has all its gears in order and everything happens for a reason. And it all is traceable
00:12:52.180 | back to some systemic issue or kind of the top lead. And I think part of my maturation process
00:12:57.620 | and part of the reason I'm still around is cause I kind of figured out, oh, okay, that's,
00:13:00.740 | it's not how it is. Like reality is more complex than that. And, um, like even the top leader of an
00:13:05.300 | organization doesn't necessarily, not everything happens according to their will. I mean, even in
00:13:09.620 | this world, I mean, I don't want to get theological, but like even God's will is resisted in this world.
00:13:14.500 | Right. So yeah. Well, that's, that's, that's the interesting thing. Um, I think, uh,
00:13:20.820 | I I've heard that people think that I'm a dictator and like everything happens under my watch and,
00:13:25.700 | you know, as a leader, I got to own all of it. Of course, you know, that's part of what it means to
00:13:29.380 | be a leader. Uh, but, um, if, um, yeah, so maybe like, man, I wish, you know, uh, but that's, that's not,
00:13:41.300 | like we're not that, I guess, uh, well run of an organization, you know, and, uh, I focus a lot on
00:13:47.540 | culture and ethos and, um, I don't like rules. I don't like policies. And I know I've said this to
00:13:53.380 | many people. I think I've said it openly to like, like our whole church, uh, there are aspects of our
00:13:58.900 | church I really don't like. And, uh, and I, and I've said in exasperation, look, if I came to this
00:14:05.700 | church as a freshman, I wouldn't last. I'd leave. Uh, can we please like, so it's ironic. And then,
00:14:14.340 | um, and then I started to kind of realize something else. It's like, why isn't this church, uh, in my image?
00:14:21.940 | Uh, and I thought, um, that's good. Uh, cause, cause it's not in my image. Uh, this is not the church,
00:14:31.860 | uh, that would suit me both as a leader and as a member. And, um, I think a lot of that has to do
00:14:40.900 | with, um, my high regard for female voices and female leadership and, um, and my sensitivity to
00:14:51.300 | my own very narrow culture. And at the end of the day, I'm a baby boomer, Korean male, you know,
00:14:59.700 | and, uh, you want that church? Well, maybe to some extent we have aspects of that, of our church that
00:15:06.660 | is that church because that's, those are our roots, but I've tried very hard to be self-aware, not to
00:15:13.300 | make sure that like, try not to put my stamp on this church too much. Uh, so, um,
00:15:20.740 | like, you know, do I get my way if I really want? I think so. I don't think anybody would
00:15:27.700 | oppose me at the end of the day, which is why I don't express a whole lot of preferences a lot.
00:15:35.140 | and our decision-making processes has become laborious, uh, because I want to hear from
00:15:40.420 | everybody. That's true. That is true. It takes a long time. It takes so long.
00:15:43.140 | Yeah. Noah would oppose you though. That's the one person who would oppose you.
00:15:46.980 | Yeah. And you know, like if I start not making sense, cause I, I start to get dementia,
00:15:50.580 | I can count on Noah to tackle me from the pulpit and make me retire. So that's, that's so comforting.
00:15:56.100 | Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think, I think my goal here for today, cause yeah, I think that's helpful. Um,
00:16:02.180 | not, not to, like you said, like as leaders, we have to own whatever happens in our ministry. At
00:16:06.420 | the end of the day, it, it, it comes back to us as leaders. And I think that's just good leadership.
00:16:10.740 | Um, but so, so the goal today is not to say like, Hey, don't blame pastor Ed for this. It's not on him.
00:16:15.780 | That's not the goal. The goal today is to just kind of see that, okay, these are the inner workings
00:16:20.660 | of our church, or these are some things that happen in our church. And that is that, and that's something
00:16:25.860 | we need to change, you know, and that we're open to changing and pastor Ed himself will say, I am
00:16:30.340 | pastor Ed and I do not approve this message. Yeah. So we've actually collected a few stories.
00:16:35.700 | Oh gosh. And they, they range from,
00:16:37.700 | I want to hear your like, we haven't, we haven't primed him about these. We haven't warned you
00:16:41.380 | about the content yet, but we're just going to share some stories about ministry malpractice.
00:16:45.460 | That's, that's kind of an internal term. I don't know if like, that's a term out there.
00:16:47.940 | I don't think wider Christians. Yeah. And it's not like, yeah, anyway,
00:16:50.340 | but it's just kind of just anything ranging from like kind of the silly and the facetious kind of
00:16:54.820 | the more serious stuff. So I just want to start out with like a fun one. You may have heard this one
00:16:58.340 | before already, but I'm just, I'm just going to explain the scenario and then you just give us your reaction.
00:17:03.300 | Okay. So, um, and these are all, we, we've gotten permission from these people to,
00:17:07.460 | to share these stories. Oh, you actually know the people.
00:17:09.860 | Yeah. They're all from people within our church.
00:17:11.300 | Oh, okay.
00:17:11.700 | These are not like live.
00:17:12.420 | We were thinking about, you know,
00:17:13.460 | Did they confess to these or you heard of them?
00:17:15.220 | Oh yeah.
00:17:15.460 | We asked people to either volunteer their stories or it's stories of like close friends of ours.
00:17:21.060 | Okay.
00:17:21.380 | You know, who knows?
00:17:22.100 | So, um, yeah, so, so, so this is, we're going to start with a fun one, um, which I think kind of just
00:17:27.620 | sort of sets the scene. So this is kind of the sort of thing that could be counted as ministry malpractice.
00:17:31.540 | So, um, one of our friends actually has a story about how, when he was, so he came into our church
00:17:37.620 | as a non-Christian freshman. And I think at the point of the story, he was still a non-Christian.
00:17:41.860 | No, he was not a Christian at this time. And it was a post-freshman year camping trip with their
00:17:46.740 | home group. And on this camping trip, the leader of that trip said, Hey guys, let's do a game.
00:17:51.220 | Let's find the strongest brother. Right. And then, so he gave everyone milk jugs full of water and
00:17:56.580 | they held it out like this. So if you, if you're listening, you know, they held it out, you know,
00:17:59.780 | like the body's like a tea with the milk jugs on either hand and see who can hold it up the longest.
00:18:04.100 | Right. And then afterwards, you know, the sisters wanted to do it too. So they did strongest sister
00:18:07.940 | as well. And, you know, and of course among the brothers, there was someone who went down the first.
00:18:12.340 | So not only did you find the strongest brother and nobody remembers to this day who the strongest
00:18:16.100 | brother was, but everyone remembers today who the weakest brother was, because at the end of that
00:18:19.940 | contest, the leader of that camping trip said, okay, let's have arm wrestling between strongest
00:18:26.740 | sister and weakest brother. And I think they're like, some people were like, yeah. And some people
00:18:33.620 | were like, I don't think this is a good idea. I don't think this is a good idea. But those voices
00:18:37.540 | were drowned out by the roar of approval. It was kind of a loud mentality moment. And this sister,
00:18:43.540 | who is actually like a black belt in Taekwondo and she's, she's, she's, she's strong. I know for a fact.
00:18:48.020 | Yeah. And basically she, she worked this, this freshman guy, she was a rising senior. He was
00:18:54.820 | a freshman and she just, she just worked it in front of everybody.
00:19:01.620 | Yeah. That's a, that's a lapse of judgment. Laps of judgment. Okay.
00:19:04.740 | Just caught up in the moment. You want to pray something to say.
00:19:06.660 | You know, and all is forgiven. He apologized later.
00:19:08.420 | Yeah. We always say, you know, play the movie, play the movie before you do something.
00:19:12.420 | Okay. So we're going to ramp it up now a little bit in seriousness. So this next one, do you want to
00:19:18.020 | explain? Yeah, sure. So this one is, you know, our church has become really like zealous in terms of
00:19:23.860 | reaching out to people. Right. And, and just, yeah, wanting people to come and hear the gospel and all
00:19:29.380 | that stuff. Right. And so this, this one actually chases back before like cell phones and all that.
00:19:33.940 | Um, and the dorms at Berkeley used to have, you know, phones and landlines. Um, for those of you
00:19:39.620 | don't know, that's like a phone that's connected to the wall. You can't use it. You can't say it with
00:19:44.580 | you. Um, and the phone numbers are tied to the room numbers, right. And, and in ascending order and,
00:19:49.620 | and whatnot. So, you know, you know what the phone numbers are. And this particular staff was trying to
00:19:54.100 | contact a freshman, invite him out and call his number and couldn't reach him. Right. And so most of us
00:20:00.420 | would be like, all right, you know, I tried, but this staff being very, you know, zealous starts
00:20:06.980 | calling the neighboring rooms and because it's, you know, ascending order, he knows, right. Calls,
00:20:11.140 | calls and I think it was like the fourth door down. He gets someone to pick up and he goes, hi,
00:20:16.180 | you don't know me, but I'm so-and-so and I'm trying to reach this guy. Can you go and knock on his door
00:20:22.020 | and you know, see if he's there calling back that sort of thing. So. Well, okay. I guess two questions
00:20:27.380 | about that. Well, first, was that common practice? And if not, yeah. What, what would you tell that
00:20:33.940 | staff? Gosh, no, that was not common practice. That was, that was not common practice. I, like in the
00:20:40.100 | world, I don't think that was common practice. Um, uh, so. Cause we don't remember the landline days.
00:20:44.900 | So, okay. So I know this story and, um, you know, Manny has gone on to become a very, a very fruitful
00:20:53.540 | leader, you know, since that time. But, um, what, what was troubling to me was this story was circulating
00:21:01.060 | as a, as an inspiring example of perseverance. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So then I had to publicly
00:21:07.940 | throw cold water on this. Okay. The result was that Ender is still here. It was Ender. It was Ender.
00:21:14.500 | I'm learning so many things. Dark Knight Legion. And so, yeah. So, so it's sort of like, you know,
00:21:19.940 | what to, what to uphold based on the result, but wait, like that result might've been okay,
00:21:25.220 | but like, don't do this. Yeah. And don't justify the means. I had no idea that that was Ender. Okay.
00:21:31.060 | Wow. Yep. Yep. Yep. Wow. Okay. All right. Moving on to the second one. Um, okay. So yeah,
00:21:37.140 | like I said, we're kind of ramping up the, the cringe and the pain, but don't worry. This person
00:21:41.540 | is also still around. Thankfully, praise the Lord. We should do a series called like,
00:21:45.460 | how are you still here? Yeah. Yeah. I think we should do another series. Like,
00:21:48.180 | why are you still here? Anyway. Um, so this girl came from a fairly, pretty much totally unchurched
00:21:54.660 | background. Is that right? Um, to pretty much unchurched background. And, um, it was one of her first
00:22:00.260 | events, like first year. And, um, she got the commitment card, you know, we do commitment cards
00:22:04.580 | that, you know, retreats and things like that, where it's, if you want to become a Christian,
00:22:07.620 | you know, there's different options. There's, you know, I want to make Jesus Lord and savior of my
00:22:10.740 | life. I want to rededicate. I want to find more about Christianity. And she was a newcomer. She had
00:22:16.500 | no idea what these options meant. And so she just was like, that was weird. And she didn't fill it out.
00:22:20.820 | I think she like wrote her name on the card and then left it blank, the rest of it blank. And then,
00:22:24.580 | um, her leader who we do not know who this is. So, so don't worry about that. Um, we've,
00:22:29.460 | we've kept their identity secret, even from us. Um, but her leader pulled her aside,
00:22:34.820 | took her side into a room and said, said like, Hey, like, you know, just blank, you know?
00:22:42.340 | Yeah. She's like, are you ready to become a Christian? She said, Hey, are you ready to
00:22:45.620 | become a Christian? And this girl said, what are you talking about? Like, I don't even know
00:22:50.660 | what this means. Like, what is this? And basically,
00:22:53.220 | imagine that it's a really high pressure. Yeah. I don't actually know how that resolved.
00:22:56.900 | Hopefully it just ended right there, but yeah. So pulling aside to the room saying, Hey, are you
00:23:02.500 | ready to become Christian? How come you didn't fill out this card? So, um, I can, I can say with a
00:23:07.460 | fair amount of confidence, I know that that's not common practice anymore, but again, kind of,
00:23:12.500 | how would you react if, if someone told you this is what they did in the staff meeting or something
00:23:16.580 | like that? What would be your response to that? Have you heard of this story? No, I haven't heard
00:23:20.820 | it, but you know what? I mean, this sort of thing probably happens a lot. Okay. This sort of thing,
00:23:27.940 | like over eager. Um, Oh, somebody filled out a card, you know, maybe they meant to check off this box,
00:23:35.860 | you know, like, wow, I want to, I want to follow up, you know? Uh, half the time that people say,
00:23:42.740 | I want to follow up. I say, don't please don't follow up. Like, you know what I mean? Like,
00:23:48.020 | I just said something. I don't really mean for somebody to follow up, you know, unless it's a
00:23:53.700 | cry for help or like, you know, somebody is really saying something. So anyway, I think that's a,
00:23:58.180 | I don't like that word follow up. Anyway, I'm getting, I'm going off now. So going back to that,
00:24:05.780 | that room where you, um, yeah, I think that's low EQ. It's failure to
00:24:11.380 | see what that must feel like, uh, from the receiving end, it's over eager. Um,
00:24:17.620 | but you know, I can tell this, this leader would have felt like, wow, there's something special
00:24:23.380 | happened. Yeah. You know, I want to, yeah. So it's like really, it is well intentioned,
00:24:27.860 | the situation, well intentioned, but it's just sort of, yeah. Oh, you didn't. Well, I mean,
00:24:31.860 | I'm saying it's well intentioned because I know that our staff are well intentioned, but if you,
00:24:35.620 | if you just zoom in in that room to that room, yeah, it could, it could also be spun as pretty
00:24:41.140 | creepy. Yeah. Pretty heavy handed, you know? I mean, I think, I think in some ways, like speaking
00:24:46.980 | to that whole salvation decision thing, like we really celebrate it. Uh, I think we think we make
00:24:52.340 | a big deal of, uh, of salvation, obviously like, yeah, like that if you're a Christian versus if
00:24:58.340 | you're not a Christian, like it makes like, that's a huge thing. Uh, but because it's so important and
00:25:05.140 | precious, uh, we, we, I think go out of our way to, uh, dial down the social pressure around that.
00:25:11.460 | Yeah. Like, Hey, make sure you're okay. Are you sure you want to think about it that you write down
00:25:16.260 | your thoughts? Um, and that wasn't the case, um, during those times when typical to Southern Baptist
00:25:25.620 | tradition, we would have a quote unquote altar call every Sunday and people would come up and,
00:25:31.300 | and there would be that decision time, you know, and to bring people to a crisis of decision where
00:25:37.540 | they have to like choose Jesus, you know, come to Jesus. And, uh, that's not just,
00:25:42.260 | that's not just Southern Baptist. I mean, I went to charismatic, like, you know, and yeah,
00:25:45.620 | we did that too. Every Sunday, not every Sunday, but fairly often. Yeah. Just there was some way to
00:25:50.180 | respond. And, and, and I think that's healthy in all sorts of ways. I think I missed that.
00:25:55.060 | Uh, you know, the, the modern day, like seeker driven service where it has to be very slick and
00:25:59.780 | like end right there, you know, when I go to charismatic churches and they just have a worship
00:26:03.700 | set that's for like an hour and a half and people trickle out and the lights are,
00:26:07.380 | sort of dim and some people pray. And then it leads to like kind of talking here and there.
00:26:11.620 | I love that. And we, we have that after retreat sometimes, but anyway, going back to, yeah.
00:26:15.940 | So yeah. Overeager. Um, and you know, high pressure. Uh, I don't think we know that,
00:26:22.180 | that that's what we're doing at times, but I think we do plenty. And I'm, I'm sure that sort of stuff
00:26:26.180 | happens nowadays too. Ouch. Ouch. All right. Well, let's move on. Similar, uh, similar to the,
00:26:32.100 | the whole followup thing. Let's, let's talk about this one. Um, so we've heard a couple of stories
00:26:38.500 | similar to this, but basically the details of this one, um, where there was a form, uh, for church
00:26:43.700 | planting, you know, to sign up. That's how we get people to sign up volunteers, like the Google form.
00:26:47.620 | We send out an interest form saying, Hey, would you be interested in potentially going on a church
00:26:50.820 | plant? You know, that's how we formed our teams and things. Um, but this particular person talks
00:26:55.860 | about how after that form went out, they didn't feel ready, didn't fill it out. Uh, and they got
00:27:01.780 | a text saying, Hey, could you come over and could we talk? And their leader invited them to their home
00:27:08.340 | and they had a talk and it wasn't like a rebuke. It wasn't like shouting or anything, but they asked,
00:27:13.220 | you know, how come you didn't sign up? And the person said, uh, I just didn't feel ready. You
00:27:18.740 | know, I don't feel ready at this time to go on a church plant. And the leader basically, uh, said,
00:27:23.460 | you know what I think to the effect of, I think you're staying here, uh, out of a desire for comfort
00:27:27.860 | and out of a desire to keep your well-paying job here in the Bay. Um, so can you just react to that,
00:27:34.980 | please? Sorry. Okay. So here I am thinking everybody's volunteering, but that's the sort
00:27:42.180 | of thing that goes on. Um, I think for the most part, um, the spirit of our church planting is
00:27:49.140 | people do sign up, uh, voluntarily. And, um, and then when the form closes, I get like tons of emails
00:27:57.940 | saying, I was just still thinking about it. Can you reopen the form? And, um, so I think by and large,
00:28:03.540 | it is, it is what it seems to be on the surface. Um, but I put in a, you know, I designed those forms
00:28:09.780 | and I, and I put in all these, um, outs, you know, like, um, so like we say, oh, people volunteer, but,
00:28:18.740 | um, people say, so one of the choices is like, send me out. I'm ready to go. No reservations. And,
00:28:26.100 | and then another choice is like, um, I'm willing to go as part of my commitment to Christ. So like,
00:28:32.660 | okay, well, that, that, that, that could be, you know, you could, it depends on the tone,
00:28:37.140 | right? That one, like, yeah, I'm willing to go, you know, or yeah, I'm willing to go. And then third
00:28:41.620 | is like, I have some concerns, but I'm willing to go or, you know, so, and then, and then state your
00:28:47.460 | concerns. And then those concerns could be job, could be aging parents, could be, you know, like, I really
00:28:52.900 | try to break into this field and I just got a job. Uh, it wouldn't be a good, good time for me to leave.
00:28:57.380 | Like, so all of those, those reasons are taken seriously into account, especially the,
00:29:02.980 | like, I just got a tech job as English major. I finally got a tech job, like, no, you stay,
00:29:07.860 | you stay. Um, you know, like, uh, me and my wife were trying to conceive or in the middle of, uh,
00:29:14.500 | you know, some kind of treatment around that all know you stay. Uh, you know,
00:29:17.860 | my parents are in and out of the hospital right now and they live in San Jose, like, or they live nearby.
00:29:21.860 | Okay. You stay. So there's, there's a lot of reasons why people like, you know, I, I'm reaching
00:29:27.140 | out to a bunch of students and they're, they're irregular, but they're really coming around.
00:29:30.420 | Okay. You stay. Um, we, so anyway, going back to this, like calling somebody in and saying like,
00:29:36.660 | Hey, you should, why, why didn't you sign up? Um, like again, they get, I guess it depends on the
00:29:44.020 | relationship. Like, wow. I thought you you're, you're eager to sign up. I'm surprised you didn't.
00:29:49.460 | So it could be that kind of conversation, but then, but then to carry that to a sort of an accusation,
00:29:54.980 | like it's because you want to hold on to your, like, what if that's true? Right. Cause you know,
00:29:59.300 | you, you kind of think, you know, people. So like, I know you like, you know, okay. What if that's true
00:30:04.020 | as a leader to do that? Um, like, I think as a friend to do that, Hey, I thought we're going to go
00:30:09.380 | on a church plant together. Like you just, you just holding onto that job because there are stock
00:30:12.900 | options like in two years. Right. You know, like friends can accuse each other of that. Like,
00:30:17.300 | no, shut up. What do you know? Like, because it's an equal relationship. You could, yeah,
00:30:21.700 | you could push back, but for, but for a leader to do that, Hey, I feel very uncomfortable about that.
00:30:27.140 | I don't think that should have happened. So back in the days, going back to the altar call,
00:30:30.260 | people do this a lot. Um, I'm not going to necessarily say it's sister leaders all the time.
00:30:38.420 | I'm not going to necessarily say that, but, um, so there would be quote unquote,
00:30:42.740 | a perfect message for somebody. Yeah. Cause we were talking about it and like,
00:30:47.140 | you were struggling with, you know, your source of significance and whatever.
00:30:50.820 | And here was a message, you know, on the Samaritan woman. And as a leader, like,
00:30:57.140 | I'm so expecting you to soak that message in and respond, but alas, you know, there's no response.
00:31:04.900 | And the, by response, I mean, she didn't come forward. Right. We used to have 40 people come
00:31:09.300 | forward, uh, and, and everybody gets prayed for. So then the service ends, but it doesn't end until
00:31:14.820 | the last person gets prayed for. Uh, but, but anyway, so all the leaders are eagerly waiting. So,
00:31:20.420 | okay, that didn't happen. And then they would follow up.
00:31:23.620 | There's that word again. And I'm like, no wonder so many people are coming out. Right.
00:31:28.420 | Cause if you get talked to, even in the sweetest, Oh, did you, what did you think about that? Like,
00:31:34.420 | because you didn't really respond. Even if that's what happened, what does that do? It ruins all future
00:31:40.420 | rededication times, all future altar calls because, Oh, now it's about, Oh, is this relevant to me?
00:31:47.460 | Cause then I should come out. Um,
00:31:50.020 | so that, so then you're ruining it. Right. So, so there's this sort of, you're setting a precedent,
00:31:56.340 | you're, you're kind of affecting the fee. So I would, I would say, don't follow up. Don't ever
00:32:00.980 | talk to anybody about why they didn't come forward. Maybe they fell asleep. You know,
00:32:06.420 | I always say, I'm actually a preacher that's very forgiving about people falling asleep.
00:32:10.420 | I am because, because people fall asleep at the wheel and they could die. Right. So it's such a
00:32:19.540 | comfortable and, you know, like high CO2 levels, people feel sleepy anyway. Uh,
00:32:25.220 | Is that why we got rid of those? Yeah. Cause I remember, I remember those times when we used to
00:32:30.100 | have it every Sunday, but yeah, our freshman year, it still happened every year.
00:32:33.220 | Yeah. You know, we got rid of it partially because of that, uh, partially because it would,
00:32:39.060 | uh, just kind of freak out people who are here for the first time. And then there are people in the
00:32:45.220 | front and they're being prayed over. And we kind of pray Korean style full prone where you get on your
00:32:49.860 | hands and knees and pray like this. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of weird. No, I appreciated some of those
00:32:54.820 | things we did out of consideration for like the non-Christians coming. Cause I, I didn't even know that like
00:32:59.060 | doing like praise songs could make them feel uncomfortable. Like what is this mass karaoke?
00:33:02.500 | You know, I came from like, I was leading praise and everything. So I thought that was normal.
00:33:05.380 | Yeah. We think that's the most natural thing. You think about it. Who looks at a screen and sings
00:33:09.940 | together? Yeah. Nobody does. That's true. Nobody does that. And we think it's the most natural thing.
00:33:15.220 | Kind of kind of one follow up question from this scenario. So I have heard you at staff meetings
00:33:21.300 | and in public kind of say stuff like this, like don't follow up on things like this. And I've heard
00:33:27.540 | it's opt in, like don't fall. And yet I would say the practice persists. What is your best theory
00:33:34.580 | about why people keep doing these kinds of things? Like, is it, do they think they're the exception?
00:33:39.780 | I think, yeah. You know, if, if what drives people to do, do this, um, is, is something
00:33:46.100 | like they're driven to do it. So, so the thinking and the training, like, oh yeah, I shouldn't do it.
00:33:50.660 | I should play the movie. What does this look like? How could this be misinterpreted? Like those filters
00:33:54.820 | aren't there when you're in the moment. Right? So like people lose their tempers. They know that's bad
00:33:59.060 | and they'll, they'll, they'll still do it because they're in the moment and feeling this. I think
00:34:02.980 | what they're feeling is insecurity and, uh, maybe, uh, over eager, sincere desire for the good of
00:34:10.900 | somebody. Right. And that's why I think it's kind of, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this.
00:34:15.620 | Should I just say, no, you know, I should just say this, like, you know, and that's why sisters do
00:34:19.780 | this more. Yeah. Guys, guys don't really think about that. Because guys prize leaving each other alone.
00:34:25.940 | That's true. At a level that most women just don't understand.
00:34:29.220 | Mm-hmm. Uh, so anyway, and that's why, that's why this kind of ministry goes over. Yeah.
00:34:33.620 | Yeah. Relatively okay too, because, oh, you care about me. Yeah. Like they'll interpret it like that.
00:34:38.260 | But I think in the moment it's, and then, so the incentive structure, uh, I think is, is, is sort of
00:34:43.780 | what's at stake too, uh, what's at play too, because, um, like I, I want people to make spiritual
00:34:51.860 | progress. Right. Under my leadership. Yeah. And then that makes me, that
00:34:55.700 | validates me as a leader. And, uh, you know, everybody struggles with that. I mean, I want
00:35:00.100 | people to be quote unquote blessed by my message because that validates me as, as a preacher. And
00:35:05.060 | that makes me want to put together like a good message. Right. So it's not that we don't want
00:35:09.940 | to live in a incentive free world. It's just that some of these incentives can create these kinds of
00:35:15.860 | like blundery kind of clumsy ministry, you know, going back to what you're saying earlier about
00:35:19.860 | precedent too. It's kind of like, you tend to lead people the way that you were led as well.
00:35:23.300 | Yeah. Like, yeah. And it's hard to unlearn those things. Yeah. It was really beneficial
00:35:27.700 | for you. And then like, you know, but then now it's, it's, it's like a different generation,
00:35:31.940 | a different culture attitudes, everything's changed, but you're just sort of like, well,
00:35:34.420 | that was done to me and it was good. And someone did. Yeah. So, so to go back to the Manny and Ender,
00:35:38.580 | like example, like Ender, Ender will say like, oh yeah, you know, Manny didn't leave me alone.
00:35:44.100 | And he pestered me, he called me seven times a week. And, and I'm so glad he did. I'm just making this up.
00:35:49.300 | I don't know if that happened. Um, let's say, yeah. And then he says, well, that's what I'm
00:35:53.220 | going to do because man, that was good for me. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, that might've been good for you.
00:35:58.020 | Yeah. But what about all the other people who, who voted with their feet and whose voices are not here.
00:36:03.620 | And in meetings, I consider it one of my roles is to represent them, you know,
00:36:07.700 | because they don't have a voice. That's a, that's a really good word for all leaders
00:36:11.620 | actually to represent the people not in the room. Like that's, that's gold. Well, because,
00:36:15.620 | because, you know, personal, personal stories are so powerful. Yeah. And so, oh yeah. Like when this
00:36:21.220 | person, uh, I ignored their texts for, you know, five weeks and then they finally came to my door and
00:36:26.580 | somehow got into the dorm and knocked on my door. Then I realized, oh, I feel really loved. I'm like,
00:36:32.740 | oh yeah, let's keep doing that. You know, it's like, no, what about all the people that would be
00:36:37.780 | freaked out by that? Like they're not there. Their voices are just, so we, we select for the people,
00:36:42.900 | uh, who have responded to our style of ministry. And so we keep repeating it. Like maybe not a good
00:36:47.700 | idea, you know, not necessarily. The, uh, should we move on to the next one? Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah.
00:36:53.940 | Let's do it. Okay. So, uh, we're nearing our end. Two more. Um, so this one is, um, one of our,
00:36:59.540 | one of our, another one of our friends, uh, he's a church plant lead now. So he's good. He's fine.
00:37:04.820 | He's good. But this was his junior year and he had just, he had been under one small group leader,
00:37:09.460 | freshman and sophomore year. And as a junior, he went into this other leader and it was at a retreat
00:37:13.700 | and they were sharing and moments where it's like, wow. Like it was like a good retreat.
00:37:18.420 | People had been convicted and, um, everyone was going around and sharing like vulnerable stuff,
00:37:23.380 | right? Kind of like they were sharing their sins and sort of, it was clear that kind of,
00:37:27.060 | okay. The expectation here is that you're going to open up and be vulnerable. And then when it got
00:37:30.660 | to this particular guy, um, he, he was having trouble and he, he, he was being really kind
00:37:37.060 | of vague and unclear. He didn't want to share. I think he just did. Yeah. He says he just didn't
00:37:41.780 | want to share vulnerably. So he was having trouble kind of saying anything. And then at a certain point,
00:37:46.900 | his leader at the time, this new leader, this new leader jumped in and said, the reason you're having
00:37:53.220 | so much trouble, I don't know the exact words, but something along the lines of the reason you're
00:37:56.580 | having so much trouble is I think it's just because you're proud in front of everyone else in the group.
00:38:00.820 | Like it's just your pride and you just, you just don't want to be honest because you're proud.
00:38:04.980 | And then he made him go and read the book out of the depths and reflect on that after that.
00:38:10.020 | Um, so they're both still around. They're good friends. Yeah. We had breakfast with both of them
00:38:15.940 | this morning. We talked to both of them about this, but we laugh about it. Yeah. We laugh about it now,
00:38:20.740 | but what is your, uh, what is your reaction to that one? That one? Have you heard? You haven't
00:38:24.660 | heard that one, right? I've never heard that one. Okay. Uh, I've never heard that one. And wow. Um,
00:38:34.340 | so vulnerable sharing, uh, you know, maybe, maybe we should, maybe I should do a series of rants
00:38:40.740 | about sharing, about sharing, vulnerable sharing, you know, there are a lot of things that are really
00:38:47.620 | good that are, that are so good that it can never be forced, you know? And, uh, I've always found guys
00:38:56.100 | share not when they're face to face, but when they're side by side. Yeah. And, uh,
00:39:01.780 | that's why I don't do sharing. That's why when I gather even with you guys, I don't, frankly,
00:39:09.780 | I just don't want to hear it. No, I really don't want to hear it because I think it's so unnatural.
00:39:17.140 | Like there are a bunch of people and, um, Hey, what'd you get out of the message? Or like, Hey,
00:39:22.180 | how are you doing? You know, like share, um, there's something about that circle. It's just so
00:39:29.300 | unnatural. And, uh, we in the church kind of force these like really unnatural things. Now, when there's
00:39:34.500 | something supernatural happens and the Holy Spirit hits and everybody's just swept up in it, you know,
00:39:40.100 | so I'm not saying I'm not going to privilege only natural and spontaneous and chill, although I, and I,
00:39:45.220 | but I do personality wise. I think that's kind of a personality defect. I don't like open displays of
00:39:51.060 | sentimentality. I like to keep it understated, you know, but anyway, oh gosh, I'm just going off. But
00:39:57.220 | no, I, I really, I really think that was a big blunder. I think again, like let's analyze that from
00:40:03.140 | the perspective of precedent. Everybody else is learning, dude, I better share vulnerably next
00:40:09.620 | time, you know, and it's like offering, you know, juicy piece of meat to, to a carnivore. It's like,
00:40:15.540 | my leader wants something. And what, what does the leader want? Vulnerability, because what,
00:40:19.220 | that's an assurance that you're being honest, right? And that you are, you are humble. I think
00:40:24.580 | what the guy said to him is technically true. If you, if you accuse any, any bro of pride,
00:40:30.660 | you're, you're likely to be 90% right. Right. Because it all traces to that. Yeah. You know,
00:40:38.340 | I think it was beyond inartful. I think that was, that was bad. And I wouldn't do that. And I would
00:40:47.460 | have had problems with somebody doing that, calling somebody out in public like that. I think I would
00:40:51.940 | have rescued him right away. It's like, hey, maybe you don't feel like sharing vulnerably, you know,
00:40:56.340 | not everybody has to, and just moved on. Right. So yeah, I guess maybe there's a little bit of like,
00:41:03.780 | anyway, yeah, don't. So, so the thing about vulnerable sharing is also, even in one on one
00:41:10.820 | settings, like this was awful, because it was after it was that front of other people. So it humiliates him,
00:41:16.180 | as well as creating this atmosphere for the next time you share. But even one on one people want,
00:41:22.260 | quote unquote, vulnerable sharing. And I think that's a signal of, of I'm being trusted. And I
00:41:28.100 | think if you're an insecure leader, you want to, you want assurance that you're trusted. And the way
00:41:33.460 | you feel trusted is when somebody shares vulnerably. And because you want that so much, you almost like
00:41:40.180 | subtly or maybe not so subtly orchestrate that. And I think it's a bad idea. It's a bad idea.
00:41:48.180 | All right, we're gonna move on to the final one here. And this one, this one is a little,
00:41:53.300 | little different. But it's something that a lot of us look back on who were undergrads at the time
00:41:58.740 | as sort of a kind of it was like a epoch defining time. Yeah, it was kind of an inflection mode. Or it
00:42:05.540 | was, yeah, it was, we're talking about the bros night. You're in the bros night? The bros night.
00:42:11.540 | So yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I look back at it with gratitude. Yeah, I just want mixed because I feel
00:42:19.300 | like we've just never talked about it as a church in some ways after that. But we talk about it,
00:42:22.660 | you know, kind of internally, there was a lot of like, talking about it. And just sort of like,
00:42:27.140 | well, that works. Yeah, but I thought most of you have never heard from you on that.
00:42:30.420 | I answered a lot of emails about that. Oh, did you really?
00:42:34.820 | Yeah, so I just want to go over the details. And I just want kind of maybe like a retrospective on
00:42:38.660 | that just to kind of, I don't know, get your thoughts on it, really. But so at the time,
00:42:43.940 | we it was when we had started inner high ministry, all bros Bible study, the theme was love, even high
00:42:50.980 | schoolers, yeah, high schoolers all the way up to like the oldest of us. And we had just started the
00:42:56.260 | inner high ministry. And for those who don't know, inner high ministry is this, it's one of our favorite
00:43:00.180 | ministries where we go and provide youth services for churches that can't afford a youth pastor,
00:43:06.340 | often ethnic churches, where the language of the parents is a different language. And,
00:43:11.060 | you know, the kids can't understand often. So we send our own team, and we go in and act as their
00:43:16.420 | youth leader. Yeah. And so there was this amazing story that had happened, because you can't find these
00:43:20.660 | ethnic churches, they don't have websites, like, it's hard, it's difficult. So we're like, our teams were
00:43:23.780 | literally driving, and just like walking, oh, there's, and then just walking out, just introducing
00:43:27.540 | themselves. And there's this amazing story of like, this woman who was like, I've been praying,
00:43:32.900 | you guys are an answer to pray. And immediately, can you come, like right now and lead the game and
00:43:36.980 | preach the message and all that, right? It was like, yeah, kind of confirmed for us, like, this is
00:43:41.060 | the direction we should go. And since then, we've had so many stories like that of people saying,
00:43:45.140 | we've been praying for our youth. So yeah, yeah. So in the moment, it was, it was moving. Yeah,
00:43:49.700 | I remember sitting there, I was a junior at the time, we presented it to everyone. And you were sort of
00:43:54.740 | explaining the inner high ministry. And at a certain point, you asked something along the
00:43:58.340 | lines of like, how many of you would want to help out with this ministry, and you don't go serve other
00:44:02.900 | churches in this way, I think fully expecting that there would be kind of an overwhelming response.
00:44:07.380 | And instead, I think the number of hands that went up among the because I think you asked the college
00:44:11.540 | students, the number of hands that went up among the college guys was maybe in the single digits,
00:44:16.740 | what do you think? I think it was single digits. The teens were single digits. Yeah.
00:44:20.180 | And I remember because I was sitting next to my brother, Noah, who at the time was in high school,
00:44:24.420 | him looking around and going, wow, that's inspiring. Like in this very, and I was like, oh, it hurt. And I
00:44:30.660 | want to say, for the record, we both did raise our hands. But we were all feeling it like, yeah,
00:44:35.540 | we were like, oh, that's what just happened. It's a really moving story. And then no one is responding.
00:44:41.060 | Yeah. And then you asked again. Yeah. So you actually clarified. You said, I'm not saying
00:44:44.820 | like right at this moment, but how many of you, maybe you're in another ministry serving. Maybe
00:44:48.500 | you got like, you know, whatever. Right. But, but what you would be interested,
00:44:51.380 | like in theory, you know, or, or, you know, given if you had time, you would like to, and maybe like
00:44:56.180 | another five or 10 hands went up, you know, in a room of hundreds. Yeah. And, um, basically you,
00:45:02.660 | you went off on the room and you, uh, if that, well, that was, that was a rebuke. It was a rebuke.
00:45:09.140 | You know, it was, it was shouted. It was, you know, at the whole room. And it wasn't very long.
00:45:14.500 | It wasn't long. It was brief. It was, and basically, yeah, it rebuked us for, for basically just
00:45:20.420 | having no heart and lack of love. Um, and the whole theme of the night was love overpowers.
00:45:25.620 | It was very, like the juxtaposition was very clear. Um, and then kind of it, you said, okay, well,
00:45:35.860 | we have, uh, RSF reserved after this, which is the gym at Berkeley. So we paid the fee.
00:45:41.220 | Let's all go play sports guys. And, uh, and then, you know, most, I remember I went home with you
00:45:48.900 | after that. Cause I didn't know you, me knowing you, we drove home and talked about that, but, um,
00:45:53.380 | boy. And it was, man, I mean, a lot of people will look back on that and say that was really
00:45:59.540 | good for them. I remember like our peers gathering and talking about it, the class below me, like
00:46:04.340 | gathering and just spontaneously they just gathered and prayed like without the leaders or anything.
00:46:08.420 | And, and said, yeah, like, gosh, we like, where is our heart? And so for a lot of people, it was
00:46:13.060 | really good. And I mean, I thought, I thought even for a lot of like non-Christians who were there,
00:46:17.140 | they were like, whoa, like that's kind of, yeah, this church takes this seriously, but not everyone
00:46:21.060 | took it that way for sure. Um, there were some people who thought were very offended, thought that
00:46:25.220 | was really appropriate. So I just want to ask like, okay, looking back on that now with the benefit of
00:46:29.860 | hindsight, I think that was about what, 15 years ago, it was probably 2010 or 12 years ago.
00:46:34.340 | Um, yeah, like, how do you, how do you think about that? And like, would you do the same thing again?
00:46:39.780 | Or what would you do? That's like a major cringe. It makes me wince every time I think about it.
00:46:45.460 | Um, it's one of those moments where I had no idea that's what was going to happen.
00:46:50.660 | I was just so shocked. And I don't know what happened because that's not, uh,
00:46:58.340 | how our church or that group of college students were. I mean, that's not, I mean,
00:47:03.780 | so you guys were juniors that year? We were juniors. Yeah. I mean, the very next year as seniors,
00:47:08.340 | you guys each started, uh, separate, uh, you know, ministry groups and there was high morale,
00:47:13.860 | high passion, high commitment, high volunteerism. The class above and below us. And I don't know what,
00:47:19.460 | maybe they were shell shocked. Maybe they were just thinking. Some people explained to me later, like,
00:47:24.900 | actually it was, I don't know why I didn't raise my hand. Uh, um, a lot of people, um, you know,
00:47:30.500 | griped about it. I, I know at least one, probably more, uh, left because of that. Uh, and, um,
00:47:39.460 | yeah. Well, you know, I think, um, occasionally pastors, um, going very Old Testament prophetic on,
00:47:46.580 | on the group, uh, is actually appropriate. I think rebuke is probably, um,
00:47:55.700 | like most appropriate to, to groups, you know, kind of a scriptural rebuke, um, rather than,
00:48:03.780 | you know, one-on-one, uh, and not, not, not that one-on-one is completely off the table, but,
00:48:08.260 | uh, the thing that I regret about that is it wasn't planned. Uh, it wasn't, uh, thought out. I was
00:48:16.660 | shocked. Uh, and I think, um, because it was a bros night, I think there was this sort of expectation
00:48:23.460 | that like we should like go charge up the mountain and like tackle dragons and, and, and, and to see
00:48:29.060 | this tepid response, uh, very calculating, like, hmm, can I really do that? But in some ways it's,
00:48:35.860 | I guess that people are calculating, okay, if I'm going to raise my hand, I want to back it up. So I
00:48:39.140 | need some time to think, uh, I didn't receive it like that. Uh, but maybe, maybe that's so it, that,
00:48:44.980 | that, that evening feels surreal to me to this day. Like, I don't know why people didn't respond
00:48:51.620 | because our prayer meetings during that time at first press was very fervent and yeah,
00:48:55.380 | it's like, what happened? You know, was it something about the way I spoke? But then my reaction
00:49:01.140 | definitely, uh, was, was like unwise. Uh, you just, you, it was just one of these moments. I,
00:49:11.060 | yeah, makes, makes me cringe. Yeah. Hmm. Oh, sorry for bringing that up. Yeah. Thanks a lot.
00:49:17.620 | I'm thankful for your thoughts on that because I mean, yeah, I mean, in retrospect, I, I, yeah,
00:49:23.380 | I think it was good for us personally. That's my take on it. Personally. Yeah. I think we were
00:49:28.100 | talking about this for a while. I mean, like I didn't cuss or anything, you know, just for the record,
00:49:32.660 | you know, it felt OT profit. Yeah. But anyway, um, so that's all that we had. We did want to ask,
00:49:39.700 | well, um, well, I think like just to kind of wrap up that whole stories part, like we talked about
00:49:45.460 | sort of the response, you know, we got your reaction to it, but I think those reactions kind of captured
00:49:50.660 | different levels of response we've had. Like, I mean, we're not a, we're a ministry that is pretty
00:49:55.140 | open about those mistakes. We talk about those things and we joke and laugh, but then we learn
00:49:58.100 | from it too. Right. And so there's like, like what you just demonstrated a level of personal response to
00:50:02.660 | it. Like, you know, and I've had that before just as a leader thinking about going, oh geez,
00:50:06.660 | why did I do that? You know, and kind of personal growth there's, and then there's things where it's
00:50:10.500 | like reflective of our church and like, oh, okay, that has to change about our whole church. And then we
00:50:16.260 | talk about that, you know, and we, we try and, and there's challenges to actually moving that elephant,
00:50:21.140 | you know, steering the ship the right way. Um, and then, um, and so there's kind of different
00:50:26.100 | levels of response to that. Right. And, and I think that's something that people maybe don't
00:50:30.500 | appreciate or, or, or understand is, is, is that, um, at multiple levels we are responding,
00:50:36.100 | you know, and it's just not sort of like this. It's, it's, I don't, I don't know what I'm really
00:50:40.260 | trying to say, but. Well, I guess maybe one question is, do you have any thoughts on like,
00:50:44.660 | kind of as a church, what, what does it look like to like grow in these ways? Because a lot of these,
00:50:51.140 | like you said, are cultural, it's very kind of visceral. Some of it, some of it is just learned.
00:50:56.100 | And there's like this, been this thing that gets passed down and can like, how do we as a church
00:51:00.900 | kind of improve and just try our best to make sure that these sorts of things don't happen? Like,
00:51:05.220 | I know it's a pretty broad question, but do you have any thoughts?
00:51:07.300 | I mean, to certain extent they're always going to happen.
00:51:08.900 | Yeah. To an extent people are always going to make mistakes. People are always going to be insecure.
00:51:12.020 | Oh man, this, this has gone long, but man, I, I have multi-level answers to this. So I think about it a lot,
00:51:18.020 | right. Because I wonder, okay, what can we do to change? And, um, you know, the, the, these are,
00:51:24.340 | these are stubborn things to change a low EQ, but man, how do you change that? Right? Not reading the
00:51:30.260 | other person, not thinking about how does this feel like to be on the receiving end of me? Uh,
00:51:35.380 | it's great training. I think when people do that and make these blunders and then they think through
00:51:39.460 | it, it's like they, they end up becoming better employees, better moms and dads and, you know,
00:51:44.100 | better parents, but well, boy, in the, in the process. So there, there, there, there are several
00:51:47.700 | things like one thing, um, you know, we've got a lot, a lot, a lot of, uh, lay leaders, you know,
00:51:53.300 | trying really hard. And, um, I, I've compared, I think the malpractice thing came out because my
00:51:58.420 | analogy was a teaching hospital, you know, like the teaching hospital is going to have to raise up
00:52:03.940 | physicians. Uh, and boy, do they, do they get rebuked when they make a mistake? I mean,
00:52:09.540 | that's one of the most hierarchical and scary relationships. The, the attending physician
00:52:13.940 | with their young residents, you know, and these are guys that finished med school, but you know,
00:52:17.620 | it's medicine is in the practice of it. And so they, and everything from bad bedside manners to, uh,
00:52:24.420 | complete misdiagnosis to blunders in medication. Uh, and, uh, you know, like, Hey, do you guys commit
00:52:30.980 | malpractice here at UCSF med school? And, um, I don't know, I don't know if they'd admit it, but
00:52:37.060 | it's like, yeah, it happens. I've saved a couple, like, you know, uh, so, uh, you know, so I, I can
00:52:44.020 | say, Hey, you know, it's going to happen. It's sort of like, you're going to build a high rise, certain
00:52:47.940 | amount of, you know, industrial accidents are going to happen. I guess callous of course, but, uh, and,
00:52:52.580 | and I wouldn't say that, but, um, how do you, how to, how to change this? I think we've,
00:52:57.940 | we've tried to change it at the incentive level, you know, and we are constantly studying the
00:53:03.300 | unintended consequences of certain good things. Like we pursue a good thing. There are unintended
00:53:07.940 | consequences. Uh, we pursue something, maybe that's too much. The pendulum needs to swing back. So all
00:53:13.460 | of that learning process happens, uh, in an organization and individual leaders trying to do this thing.
00:53:19.700 | that's really, really difficult, which is to, uh, build trust and, um, uh, commend the gospel to a
00:53:27.940 | non-Christian. And then when they become Christian to try to help them along to become the most, uh,
00:53:33.460 | uh, amazing representation of Christ. Yeah. Right. Uh, that that's really tough. And all of that happens
00:53:39.860 | through interpersonal influence and through the word of God. Right. So, so as we're trying to do this,
00:53:44.660 | uh, I'm thinking, okay, so how many blunders can you make before you don't get another chance?
00:53:52.900 | And, um, I think about the people who've taken to the internet and, you know, telling these stories and,
00:54:02.180 | you know, we, we kind of talked about this in, in the most lighthearted framework possible, you know,
00:54:07.380 | uh, but there are, there are, there are worse stories. Oh yeah. And they are, um,
00:54:13.300 | they are not one-offs. They're, they're isolated so that it's not widespread, but they're the sorts of
00:54:20.740 | things that, that can happen. And these are stories of people who are still here. There are a lot of people
00:54:26.660 | who are not here for whom that story is their last story and that experience then grows in their mind.
00:54:34.340 | And as they think about our church, that's the thing that grows and that's the thing that grows
00:54:38.180 | and they're going to write about it. And of course, everybody else looks at that and say, okay,
00:54:41.540 | that's who they are. Uh, and I, I heard a mess message. Uh, you know, they, they take the worst part
00:54:47.460 | of you and make that your profile picture. Whereas your life is a video, you know, uh, and it's like,
00:54:52.740 | it's like Peter denying Jesus, uh, versus, you know, uh, him repenting. And, um, so, and I look at, um,
00:55:01.060 | kind of the unkindness toward large successful institutions and you know what, um,
00:55:08.820 | you don't have that many chances because your blunders become, uh, stories that become permanently
00:55:16.420 | etched in the world wide web. And, um, and individuals, I think individual redemption stories
00:55:24.740 | are more accepted. Institutional redemption stories are often not because, uh, these stories are taken to be
00:55:34.980 | self-serving, um, defensive, uh, you know, you have big corporations issuing a blanket apologies, um,
00:55:43.220 | that are sort of crafted. And so there's cynicism. Uh, so how many of these stories and how many of these,
00:55:51.380 | um, like blunders and people making clumsy ministry relational decisions, uh, can we absorb and survive
00:56:02.020 | is, is, is, is a question, uh, that's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a probing question. Like it's a, and, um,
00:56:08.740 | my conclusion is that, um, it's a losing battle. Uh, and I don't know what to do with that conclusion.
00:56:16.980 | Um, but you know, we're going to be spending, um, a lot of time, uh, apologizing and training and trying to,
00:56:30.100 | uh, uh, redress this, but as long as we believe in a ministry where we are trying to
00:56:36.100 | obey the call to make disciples, um, rather than a teaching ministry or rather than a ministry where,
00:56:46.420 | um, we are not as close. We're not in each, each other's homes all the time. And, um, but if we are
00:56:53.220 | going to obey the make disciples and be in each other's homes and, you know, keep watch over one
00:57:01.220 | another and help each other become sanctified and be like living stones, you know, tightly, uh, together,
00:57:07.620 | like, as long as we're going to be engaged in that ministry, I think we have to have a way more, uh,
00:57:14.020 | dispersed, uh, expression of our church where we're not seen as a big institution. And, um, you know,
00:57:23.220 | in some ways that's our future anyway, uh, because at a certain scale, uh, the effort required to align
00:57:30.020 | and to be on the same page and to coordinate all of our efforts so that, you know, we're in 30, 38 cities,
00:57:36.100 | I always forget the number. I mean, we're, we're 1600, just staff, um, by vocational ministers
00:57:42.740 | and trying to, and we still feel like one big tribe. I mean, trying to keep that, uh, while
00:57:49.460 | in each location, you're carrying on your ministry without. So, okay. So let me back up. Big part of this
00:57:59.860 | is, uh, the layers too. It's like a telephone game. Like, like your leader above you can say,
00:58:07.060 | oh, hey, where, where was Joe that freshman this past Friday? Um, you know, he came, but,
00:58:12.020 | oh, he suddenly didn't come. Do you know where he is? And if you're the freshman staff and Joe is your,
00:58:18.900 | one of your guys, you say, oh, well, I don't know. And that doesn't feel like you're, you're a good
00:58:26.020 | shepherd there. So then, so then you better know. Yeah. So then I feel that way when my wife asked
00:58:31.540 | me, where was this person? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. It's like, what are you going
00:58:34.820 | to do? Like none of my business. Am I my brother's keeper? You know, but it's, it's really crazy that
00:58:40.260 | just that innocent question causes behavior among the freshmen staff that is actually shooting us in
00:58:47.140 | the feed and, and, and making, making us this like high pressure pestering group. Like,
00:58:52.020 | Hey man, where were you? Even if you asked the nicest way, it's like, why are you asking me?
00:58:56.260 | Yeah. Cause that's so bizarre. Right. And so there's an example of unintended consequence.
00:59:01.220 | Just having a leader ask you about your ministry can trigger behavior that that leader never even
00:59:06.820 | intended. Yeah. So I feel like we've got to get flat. We've got to get small. We've got to,
00:59:11.620 | we've got to become more or less autonomous in terms of our tactics and strategy, and even some of our
00:59:15.940 | values. Uh, I, I think, I think they're important values and then they're less important values that
00:59:20.500 | have sort of, um, you know, I, like, like I, I, I analogize it to like those, those big rocks at
00:59:26.740 | tide pools with like stubborn barnacles that are, it's like, it's like we have pressed it. Like we
00:59:31.220 | don't have, those aren't even our values. And, and we, so we can't keep stripping them down by me,
00:59:37.860 | like going on these rants. It doesn't seem to do much. Uh, I think, I think what we need to do is
00:59:42.420 | we need to simplify our values, uh, simplify our structure, uh, become a lot more dispersed,
00:59:47.620 | uh, so that the burden of upholding all of these things, uh, get taken off of guys like you guys,
00:59:55.620 | and you're, you're free to sort of start building, uh, like maybe, maybe new rhythms, new values that,
01:00:03.060 | that fits this culture, this campus, this team. And I know when I start talking like this, like
01:00:10.260 | different people, um, get sad. Yeah. And, um, you know, but Kelly and I, we're turning 60 next year.
01:00:18.100 | And, um, yeah, like I don't want to, I don't want to be 65 and suddenly retire, leaving our church in
01:00:26.180 | the lurch, right? I want to, I want to plan for a new expression of our church in which the current
01:00:33.620 | group of leaders are sort of like, uh, a council of the wise, uh, available to consult rather than, uh,
01:00:40.980 | try to control and direct and, and, uh, and kind of keep everything together as one. And, and that future
01:00:48.660 | is, um, kind of exciting to me personally. Um, so, um, I think, I think we have to sort of navigate through that.
01:00:56.260 | Uh, so still some of this will happen. Yeah. But I think it'll get, these things will get redressed
01:01:02.260 | and, and we can pivot much quicker, uh, in this kind of future. Yeah. Cool. If I could,
01:01:08.660 | I don't know, just take an attempt to like sum that up for people that the way that I've thought about it
01:01:13.300 | is sort of like, we're, we're, we're mom and pop family, like kind of group that got to a scale that
01:01:20.820 | feels really institutional and like we're struggling to deal with some of the challenges
01:01:26.900 | and realities that come with that wide institution. And in some ways we don't even come to grips with
01:01:33.540 | that identity because we still feel like the mom and pop. So you don't even know that you're actually
01:01:38.340 | perceived as institution. Right. And so then maybe the key is to change something so that there's go back
01:01:45.060 | the other way, you know, and maybe just get smaller in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:01:50.340 | So I think, um, I think final, just kind of, final question, um, would be, I want to get a little bit
01:01:57.220 | into the online stuff. So, so I think just one thing there's, there's a lot of accusations out there that
01:02:01.780 | you've had in the past that you're kind of a denier that our church has issues that you say,
01:02:06.420 | I don't, I mean, I don't think you've ever said this, but that you've said there's nothing to
01:02:10.340 | the online criticism and it's all fabrication. So just, just to set the record straight, could you just
01:02:14.900 | react to that? Like, is that, is that your reaction to the online criticism that there's nothing to it?
01:02:19.060 | No. Um, I don't, I don't think, well, I mean, who knows what I, what I've said? Um, like, did I say
01:02:29.300 | that? Like maybe there's nothing to the online criticism in, in like, in a particular instance of
01:02:34.420 | the online criticism? Online criticism has been with us since 2006. Uh, it's, it's been ever present.
01:02:40.020 | I think the current iteration of it is the most intense though. Um, and maybe that's a reflection of
01:02:44.740 | of not just the stories that are on there, but kind of, kind of the direction that our culture
01:02:48.580 | has gotten where there's a lot more, uh, like a frightened, uh, response, uh, to, to, to these
01:02:55.620 | kinds of allegations. Uh, but in, in every iteration of our online criticism, um, I, I experienced a
01:03:03.940 | bunch of things. First initial, uh, woundedness, bewilderment, but, uh, like, man, the way this
01:03:12.580 | person writes and what this person is saying, she'd be really surprised or he'd be really surprised
01:03:18.660 | how much I agree with what they're saying. It's just that it's just, if you could see the bigger
01:03:24.580 | picture, if you can see the bigger picture. Um, you know, I, I think when I, you know, like what you,
01:03:32.580 | you guys are married, like when, when you have marital strife, like you're, you're capable of thinking a
01:03:36.420 | certain way about your spouse, right? And, and you just take that like, you can like, wow, your spouse
01:03:42.500 | is a monster, right? But there's a context and there's the sort of the ups as well as the downs,
01:03:50.500 | as well as the, you know, so, um, so it's, it's like even the most surreal painting, um, you kind
01:03:58.900 | of recognize what's being depicted and that's almost always been my experience. So I recognize that. Uh,
01:04:05.380 | the other thing is, I, I very strongly object to the fact that this is put on the internet and,
01:04:16.740 | you know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite. Uh, I'm, I'm very, um, very suspicious of technology's, uh,
01:04:23.540 | impact on, uh, turning life and turning people into a certain way. Um, but we're supposed to deal with this,
01:04:31.780 | uh, in house internally. We, as in Christians, we, we Christians and the way Christians call out each
01:04:37.940 | other and, um, and kind of take on, uh, secular categories of abuser and the abused and one side
01:04:47.140 | are just villainous, um, and, and demonic. And, you know, that that's the way the world works because
01:04:54.340 | there's no hope or grace or, uh, or, or the larger perspective that I'm a sinner, you know,
01:05:00.260 | just like DL Moody's famous thing about somebody writing slanderous stuff about him on the, on the
01:05:06.420 | newspaper and say, well, if the man knew me really, he would have a lot more things to say. And that's
01:05:10.020 | sort of my stance. Um, even though a lot of the stuff that's written about me personally is actually
01:05:15.940 | straight up false, not just accusations of like, he's a totalitarian. Maybe that's true. I don't know,
01:05:20.900 | but like factual allegations about our finances and things like that. It's like,
01:05:24.980 | like I actually know that that's false. So there, there, you know, so there, there's all, all of that.
01:05:30.820 | But, but aside from those straight up false things, like, I think, okay, well, I should take a beating,
01:05:35.540 | you know, um, we should all take a beating every now and then. And, you know, like worse aspects of us,
01:05:41.380 | like, yeah, you did that. Like, you know, we, we tend to forget that. Right. And the, these online
01:05:46.900 | criticisms are great reminder, like, Hey, you know, we do some really goofy things and worse.
01:05:51.860 | And we've done that. That's on us. I just wish that wouldn't stay, uh, permanently forever on the
01:05:58.180 | internet. And for everyone who's trying to give us some kind of chance to read that and get spooked and
01:06:04.180 | run away and they don't get access to the gospel. And, um, you know, we really try hard to preach
01:06:10.740 | the gospel evangelistically. And that's the part that then makes me look at the whole thing
01:06:16.260 | and, and think the whole project is illegitimate. Even though the specific posters
01:06:23.540 | and the postings are like, oh man, if we talked about this face to face, we could totally have a
01:06:30.100 | meeting of the minds. Yes. Emotionally, it just feels like, ah, why are you doing this? And it gets
01:06:34.980 | hard personally to separate that out from, okay, these are legitimate criticisms from like, why do you have
01:06:39.700 | to do with this? But I definitely experienced that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think
01:06:43.460 | everything you said is, is a good word, not only for like our own church members to kind of think
01:06:46.980 | about, but like, I mean, it's not just our church. It's all pastors, churches facing this sort of thing
01:06:52.740 | and, and, and all Christians kind of getting like really entangled in the mug of all this. And I think
01:06:58.420 | there needs to be like, almost like a fresh movement of Christian civility online. Yeah. Fresh
01:07:03.220 | commitment to civility. That would be really nice. Yeah. If all Christians could act like Jesus online, that would be a great
01:07:08.260 | witness to the world, you know? Yeah. But man, I, I think that's a great place to, that's a great place
01:07:14.820 | to end. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Very, very illuminating. I think people will find it
01:07:18.820 | pretty helpful to just hear this from your lips. Yeah, I think so. I think so. And so I hope that gave
01:07:22.020 | people really good perspectives. So like, subscribe, Pastor Ed, you got to like and subscribe to this
01:07:27.460 | podcast. All right. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks for joining us on the unofficial,
01:07:33.380 | official Grace Point Podcast. See you guys next week.
01:07:40.260 | *music*