Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the official, unofficial Grace Point podcast. I'm Stephen. I'm Isaiah. We are your co-hosts, and we are in the middle of a series called Why the Hate? We try to answer the question, why does our church get so much hate online? And it's a special episode today.

We have a very special guest. Yeah, I guess today we're the official Grace Point podcast because today we have Pastor Ed, a.k.a. my dad, on the show. And we have kind of something interesting. Who's the senior pastor of Grace Point? Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. He's the senior pastor of Grace Point Church, if you did not know that.

Yeah. And we wanted to try something kind of different today. And we want to introduce... How about before we get into the topic? I mean, you guys see it in the title. Why don't you just start by introducing yourself? I don't think people know the story. I wanted to ask, how did you become the senior pastor of Grace Point?

Because a lot of people have this impression that you founded the church and all this stuff. I was surprised the impression that you didn't and all that. So maybe just talk about that a little bit. Just like... You really want to go there, like the whole history? As much as you want.

Yeah. I think people are interested. Okay. People want to know. Yeah. You know, that's not as straightforward as it should be. We're a 40-year-old church in some way. Yeah. Because it's in Berkeley where it all started. And current expression of Grace Point is from that period. That's true. In 1981, when I was a freshman, this church started as Berkeley Baptist Church.

Berkeley and Oakland, Berkeley Baptist Church. I was a freshman in 81. The church started in 81. But I didn't join until 88. Wow. January of 88. We were recently married, 87. And we decided that, you know, we went to a Korean church. And we decided, well, we need better discipleship.

We need people to mentor us. And I had known the leaders and my friends at Berkeley and had lots of admiration for the church. I was involved in youth ministry. And so I felt really obligated. I started it as a college and it just continued. And so we joined the church in 88.

It's getting long already. No, no, no. It's good. It's good. So, yeah. So then, yeah, so I was working as a corporate lawyer in San Francisco on a big farm. Kelly was a coder before coders became really cool, working for Sun Microsystems. Wow. That's why we lived in Alameda.

We're the only ones living in Alameda because she had a commute down to the South Bay. And so, and we're just lay leaders. And one day I looked at what I was doing at the law firm. And like, I had this moment, I was representing clients like Pechtoll and Kaiser.

They really didn't need little Ed Kang working on their stuff. Whereas back at church, you know, and that was right when we were shifting into all, all English. Oh yeah. Okay. Right around we weren't 88. No, we were a Korean, Korean speaking, Korean culture Baptist church. I don't actually know we spoke Korean.

So no, it was, it was exclusively Korean speaking. We're a Korean speaking church. And then, um, yeah, when we joined in 88, uh, actually correct that we were still largely a Korean speaking church. Okay. But we had started an English speaking ministry, which I think by like 1990 became completely exclusively English speaking, but we're always a collegiate church.

So, um, so anyway, so we joined in 88, uh, we started, um, teaching Bible and, you know, right around in a couple of years. Uh, so I guess it was in 93 when, when I finally decided to, uh, leave law and do, do this full time. And, um, you know, my own calling story is very different from your typical, like, how did God call you into the ministry?

And there's a certain story, uh, that you're supposed to have of like strong impression or, or something like that. And I never heard a voice or there, there was nothing like that. Uh, what it was, was I kind of looked around and, um, I was the leader, you know, like somebody's got to lead this thing.

We're, we're, we're a poor, my first salary was $200 a month. We're a poor church. So everybody was bivocational. Cause if you're in collegiate ministry, that's what you're going to do. Yeah. Yeah. So you had a, you had a friend who said something to you, I think that kind of triggered the thought, right?

The thing about, Oh yes. I had a really good friend who is a pastor in New York right now. Uh, Danny Lee. And, uh, Danny said to me one day, and he was an engineer, uh, but he would, he would say these like provocative things to me. Uh, and, um, he said, Hey, um, if you became a pastor and I became a pastor and all of our friends became pastors, cause we're all like lay ministers, right?

Kind of loving on younger brothers, uh, best as we could with our day jobs. He said, that still wouldn't be enough pastors. I said, I said, yeah, you're right. Uh, and I think the world that we were looking at, it's, it's not like America. It's certainly not the world.

What we're looking at is this growing group of English speaking, American born second generation. And at that point it was Koreans. And we looked around and none of us, and by us, I mean, English speaking, uh, older ones, and we were rare. Like most of my friends were way more comfortable in Korean.

So Danny and I were, we're sort of the rare breeds. And he said, if all of us became pastors, that wouldn't be enough. Meaning there, there, there's so many of these, um, Korean, you know, kids that we can, kids, younger brothers. And so I said, no, that wouldn't be enough.

And he said, okay, then why aren't we doing it? And my only answer was the salary, man. Hey, I worked hard for this job, went to law school, you know? Um, so that really convicted me. Um, so it was 93. I became, uh, a full time. And when did he go full time?

He went full time. Years later, he held up. He said that and then he like, Like a good friend, he made you two. It was interesting. I don't know. Maybe I was an older brother that he looked up to because then he quit his, uh, engineering job, became a lawyer.

He became a way better lawyer than I was. It was actually a litigator. Yeah, he was an engineer. He was an unhappy engineer. Uh, anyway, so I went to law school, uh, and then, and then he went to, um, and then he became full time. So I think he became, uh, he went into full time ministry, maybe 10 years after me, probably.

I don't know. I forgot the timing. Um, so, so, um, make a long story short, 93, I find myself going full time and in charge of the college ministry at Berkeley. And then in 1994, what's the question? How did I become the pastor? How did you become the pastor?

Even going full time, like there's that story with Kelly, like what she said to you in the car. Yeah. You know, my wife Kelly, she is the, um, she, she's, um, she's a PK, uh, not a typical PK, she was really goody two shoes PK. A lot of PK is like, you know, they, yeah, but a lot of PK is like they sin, like they invented it, you know?

Um, so, but, um, her thing, and I think my thing, and probably a lot of us who grew up, um, financially struggling in the immigrant, uh, era, um, you know, our whole thing was, uh, just getting a foothold in America that we saw our parents work so hard for.

And so her thing was, God, I'll, I'll serve you whatever, but not, not, not a pastor's wife. So, so we're visiting our friend, uh, who was living, uh, on campus at Golden Gate Baptist Seminary. And I still remember the little section of the, of the road between, uh, one-on-one and between 80 and one-on-one where she said in a, in a grudging way, Hey, if you want to go into full-time ministry, I'm okay with it.

Uh, that, that was, but she initiated because I was struggling with it. I was thinking about it. It was such a relief when she said that it became very clear. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, uh, back to your question. So I was leading the ministry at Berkeley, the college. Uh, we had another bro, a friend of mine leading the, what we now call praxis, the post-college back then were a lot more college heavy.

And then anybody who graduated college, they would get, they would become college staff or they would go and become praxis. And because it was led by someone else and the relationship was with us, then it was, um, it, I think a lot of people felt that as a rejection, like you didn't make the cut, you know?

And so that was unhappy for them. It was definitely unhappy for my friend who's leading this ministry. And people come and say, you know, please pray for me. I'm bitter that I couldn't make it on college team. And he's like, what, what am I? Uh, he, he eventually went on to plant a church in San Jose and LA, uh, leaving, uh, the whole Berkeley church to me.

Uh, and then, um, I guess, uh, the Berkeley- So that time you were leading the English college, the praxis and Korean? Was the Korean still around? Yeah. Well, that's a whole nother story. So although, although we're a Korean speaking Korean church, there was another Korean congregation that had started in the mid nineties, not mid nineties, mid, mid eighties.

And that was reaching out to, so it's sort of like our international ministry, right? They were, they're reaching out to Korean graduate students. And so as we became more English, they became the more, more Korean. So then the Korean side of it continued, uh, and, and that was led by someone else.

So we were kind of maybe two congregations in parallel. Um, unlike a lot of immigrant church situations, the English side became more dominant and more financially. Uh, we, and we eventually got to the point where we were supporting the Korean congregation financially for a while. Um, yeah. And then, um, and then 2006, the Berkeley network, um, all sort of became autonomous by mutual agreement.

Uh, and from an objective church world perspective, it was very civil from an emotional perspective. It was like, we were all torn apart, uh, because we had pledged to bury our bones together and we're all close friends. And, uh, we had to break up for reasons that, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily want to go get into, I mean, I don't mind talking about it, but it involves other people and I'd rather not.

Uh, but it was, uh, it, it started out as a classic church split in a way, uh, because, um, two churches, three churches, the Davis church, the Berkeley church and the San Jose church. Uh, because we're at that point, we're a network of about maybe seven churches. Uh, and, uh, we, um, we had some concerns with the overall direction and leadership of the church.

And so it was decided that, uh, instead of fighting that out, that we would just go autonomous in 2006. So that would have been the 25th anniversary, uh, of the Berkeley movement. And then everybody else took on different names. And that's, that's when we took on the name grace point.

Got it. Got it. Wow. Yeah. And then we, we, you know, in, in our other podcasts, we've kind of, the rest is history. We've talked about that a little bit, but I think that was really enlightening. That was really helpful. So yeah. Do you want to? Yeah. So, um, the kind of main agenda for today is, um, we're calling this, uh, kind of Pastor Ed reacts to instances of ministry malpractice.

Oh, ministry malpractice. Oh, they didn't warn me about this. Let me just kind of back up and explain a little bit about why. So this was my idea. Um, and I would say, I don't know this for a fact. I've never actually asked you about this, dad, but, um, it probably like, if you had to name the number one and number two critics of our ministry within our church, I'm guessing that would be me number two and my brother, number one, probably.

Right. Would that you, would you say that's pretty accurate? That's pretty accurate. That's pretty accurate. Just in terms of sheer volume. I don't see, I don't see a close third, you know, it's like, yeah, okay. No, she's too kind. And she lets you guys do all of the, all of the criticism.

She makes us say stuff, but anyway, so, um, I'm, I don't know if people know that, but yeah, I mean, like I'm, we're both just critical fellows. I mean, we got it from somewhere, but, um, yeah, that's what we're like. And, uh, constitutionally rebellious, which you definitely got from me.

Yeah. And, um, and kind of just up in arms type of folks. And we like to, you know, when we see something like, what the heck happened here? And we like to bring things up. So yeah, I mean, so I've had this experience a lot of, I hear about something, usually it's not to me, sometimes it's to me, but sometimes it's like a friend or someone else I know experienced this and I'm like, what the heck, what happened here?

And I go to you and I'm like, why do we do things this way? And then I'm, I was, at least the first couple of times I did that, I was surprised to hear from you, like, what that happened? You know? And it was like, oh, like, cause my assumption is always just, I don't know, you see kind of an institution and you just assume that it's kind of this monolithic thing that, you know, has all its gears in order and everything happens for a reason.

And it all is traceable back to some systemic issue or kind of the top lead. And I think part of my maturation process and part of the reason I'm still around is cause I kind of figured out, oh, okay, that's, it's not how it is. Like reality is more complex than that.

And, um, like even the top leader of an organization doesn't necessarily, not everything happens according to their will. I mean, even in this world, I mean, I don't want to get theological, but like even God's will is resisted in this world. Right. So yeah. Well, that's, that's, that's the interesting thing.

Um, I think, uh, I I've heard that people think that I'm a dictator and like everything happens under my watch and, you know, as a leader, I got to own all of it. Of course, you know, that's part of what it means to be a leader. Uh, but, um, if, um, yeah, so maybe like, man, I wish, you know, uh, but that's, that's not, like we're not that, I guess, uh, well run of an organization, you know, and, uh, I focus a lot on culture and ethos and, um, I don't like rules.

I don't like policies. And I know I've said this to many people. I think I've said it openly to like, like our whole church, uh, there are aspects of our church I really don't like. And, uh, and I, and I've said in exasperation, look, if I came to this church as a freshman, I wouldn't last.

I'd leave. Uh, can we please like, so it's ironic. And then, um, and then I started to kind of realize something else. It's like, why isn't this church, uh, in my image? Uh, and I thought, um, that's good. Uh, cause, cause it's not in my image. Uh, this is not the church, uh, that would suit me both as a leader and as a member.

And, um, I think a lot of that has to do with, um, my high regard for female voices and female leadership and, um, and my sensitivity to my own very narrow culture. And at the end of the day, I'm a baby boomer, Korean male, you know, and, uh, you want that church?

Well, maybe to some extent we have aspects of that, of our church that is that church because that's, those are our roots, but I've tried very hard to be self-aware, not to make sure that like, try not to put my stamp on this church too much. Uh, so, um, like, you know, do I get my way if I really want?

I think so. I don't think anybody would oppose me at the end of the day, which is why I don't express a whole lot of preferences a lot. and our decision-making processes has become laborious, uh, because I want to hear from everybody. That's true. That is true. It takes a long time.

It takes so long. Yeah. Noah would oppose you though. That's the one person who would oppose you. Yeah. And you know, like if I start not making sense, cause I, I start to get dementia, I can count on Noah to tackle me from the pulpit and make me retire.

So that's, that's so comforting. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think, I think my goal here for today, cause yeah, I think that's helpful. Um, not, not to, like you said, like as leaders, we have to own whatever happens in our ministry. At the end of the day, it, it, it comes back to us as leaders.

And I think that's just good leadership. Um, but so, so the goal today is not to say like, Hey, don't blame pastor Ed for this. It's not on him. That's not the goal. The goal today is to just kind of see that, okay, these are the inner workings of our church, or these are some things that happen in our church.

And that is that, and that's something we need to change, you know, and that we're open to changing and pastor Ed himself will say, I am pastor Ed and I do not approve this message. Yeah. So we've actually collected a few stories. Oh gosh. And they, they range from, I want to hear your like, we haven't, we haven't primed him about these.

We haven't warned you about the content yet, but we're just going to share some stories about ministry malpractice. That's, that's kind of an internal term. I don't know if like, that's a term out there. I don't think wider Christians. Yeah. And it's not like, yeah, anyway, but it's just kind of just anything ranging from like kind of the silly and the facetious kind of the more serious stuff.

So I just want to start out with like a fun one. You may have heard this one before already, but I'm just, I'm just going to explain the scenario and then you just give us your reaction. Okay. So, um, and these are all, we, we've gotten permission from these people to, to share these stories.

Oh, you actually know the people. Yeah. They're all from people within our church. Oh, okay. These are not like live. We were thinking about, you know, Did they confess to these or you heard of them? Oh yeah. We asked people to either volunteer their stories or it's stories of like close friends of ours.

Okay. You know, who knows? So, um, yeah, so, so, so this is, we're going to start with a fun one, um, which I think kind of just sort of sets the scene. So this is kind of the sort of thing that could be counted as ministry malpractice. So, um, one of our friends actually has a story about how, when he was, so he came into our church as a non-Christian freshman.

And I think at the point of the story, he was still a non-Christian. No, he was not a Christian at this time. And it was a post-freshman year camping trip with their home group. And on this camping trip, the leader of that trip said, Hey guys, let's do a game.

Let's find the strongest brother. Right. And then, so he gave everyone milk jugs full of water and they held it out like this. So if you, if you're listening, you know, they held it out, you know, like the body's like a tea with the milk jugs on either hand and see who can hold it up the longest.

Right. And then afterwards, you know, the sisters wanted to do it too. So they did strongest sister as well. And, you know, and of course among the brothers, there was someone who went down the first. So not only did you find the strongest brother and nobody remembers to this day who the strongest brother was, but everyone remembers today who the weakest brother was, because at the end of that contest, the leader of that camping trip said, okay, let's have arm wrestling between strongest sister and weakest brother.

And I think they're like, some people were like, yeah. And some people were like, I don't think this is a good idea. I don't think this is a good idea. But those voices were drowned out by the roar of approval. It was kind of a loud mentality moment. And this sister, who is actually like a black belt in Taekwondo and she's, she's, she's, she's strong.

I know for a fact. Yeah. And basically she, she worked this, this freshman guy, she was a rising senior. He was a freshman and she just, she just worked it in front of everybody. Yeah. That's a, that's a lapse of judgment. Laps of judgment. Okay. Just caught up in the moment.

You want to pray something to say. You know, and all is forgiven. He apologized later. Yeah. We always say, you know, play the movie, play the movie before you do something. Okay. So we're going to ramp it up now a little bit in seriousness. So this next one, do you want to explain?

Yeah, sure. So this one is, you know, our church has become really like zealous in terms of reaching out to people. Right. And, and just, yeah, wanting people to come and hear the gospel and all that stuff. Right. And so this, this one actually chases back before like cell phones and all that.

Um, and the dorms at Berkeley used to have, you know, phones and landlines. Um, for those of you don't know, that's like a phone that's connected to the wall. You can't use it. You can't say it with you. Um, and the phone numbers are tied to the room numbers, right.

And, and in ascending order and, and whatnot. So, you know, you know what the phone numbers are. And this particular staff was trying to contact a freshman, invite him out and call his number and couldn't reach him. Right. And so most of us would be like, all right, you know, I tried, but this staff being very, you know, zealous starts calling the neighboring rooms and because it's, you know, ascending order, he knows, right.

Calls, calls and I think it was like the fourth door down. He gets someone to pick up and he goes, hi, you don't know me, but I'm so-and-so and I'm trying to reach this guy. Can you go and knock on his door and you know, see if he's there calling back that sort of thing.

So. Well, okay. I guess two questions about that. Well, first, was that common practice? And if not, yeah. What, what would you tell that staff? Gosh, no, that was not common practice. That was, that was not common practice. I, like in the world, I don't think that was common practice.

Um, uh, so. Cause we don't remember the landline days. So, okay. So I know this story and, um, you know, Manny has gone on to become a very, a very fruitful leader, you know, since that time. But, um, what, what was troubling to me was this story was circulating as a, as an inspiring example of perseverance.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So then I had to publicly throw cold water on this. Okay. The result was that Ender is still here. It was Ender. It was Ender. I'm learning so many things. Dark Knight Legion. And so, yeah. So, so it's sort of like, you know, what to, what to uphold based on the result, but wait, like that result might've been okay, but like, don't do this.

Yeah. And don't justify the means. I had no idea that that was Ender. Okay. Wow. Yep. Yep. Yep. Wow. Okay. All right. Moving on to the second one. Um, okay. So yeah, like I said, we're kind of ramping up the, the cringe and the pain, but don't worry. This person is also still around.

Thankfully, praise the Lord. We should do a series called like, how are you still here? Yeah. Yeah. I think we should do another series. Like, why are you still here? Anyway. Um, so this girl came from a fairly, pretty much totally unchurched background. Is that right? Um, to pretty much unchurched background.

And, um, it was one of her first events, like first year. And, um, she got the commitment card, you know, we do commitment cards that, you know, retreats and things like that, where it's, if you want to become a Christian, you know, there's different options. There's, you know, I want to make Jesus Lord and savior of my life.

I want to rededicate. I want to find more about Christianity. And she was a newcomer. She had no idea what these options meant. And so she just was like, that was weird. And she didn't fill it out. I think she like wrote her name on the card and then left it blank, the rest of it blank.

And then, um, her leader who we do not know who this is. So, so don't worry about that. Um, we've, we've kept their identity secret, even from us. Um, but her leader pulled her aside, took her side into a room and said, said like, Hey, like, you know, just blank, you know?

Yeah. She's like, are you ready to become a Christian? She said, Hey, are you ready to become a Christian? And this girl said, what are you talking about? Like, I don't even know what this means. Like, what is this? And basically, imagine that it's a really high pressure. Yeah.

I don't actually know how that resolved. Hopefully it just ended right there, but yeah. So pulling aside to the room saying, Hey, are you ready to become Christian? How come you didn't fill out this card? So, um, I can, I can say with a fair amount of confidence, I know that that's not common practice anymore, but again, kind of, how would you react if, if someone told you this is what they did in the staff meeting or something like that?

What would be your response to that? Have you heard of this story? No, I haven't heard it, but you know what? I mean, this sort of thing probably happens a lot. Okay. This sort of thing, like over eager. Um, Oh, somebody filled out a card, you know, maybe they meant to check off this box, you know, like, wow, I want to, I want to follow up, you know?

Uh, half the time that people say, I want to follow up. I say, don't please don't follow up. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I just said something. I don't really mean for somebody to follow up, you know, unless it's a cry for help or like, you know, somebody is really saying something.

So anyway, I think that's a, I don't like that word follow up. Anyway, I'm getting, I'm going off now. So going back to that, that room where you, um, yeah, I think that's low EQ. It's failure to see what that must feel like, uh, from the receiving end, it's over eager.

Um, but you know, I can tell this, this leader would have felt like, wow, there's something special happened. Yeah. You know, I want to, yeah. So it's like really, it is well intentioned, the situation, well intentioned, but it's just sort of, yeah. Oh, you didn't. Well, I mean, I'm saying it's well intentioned because I know that our staff are well intentioned, but if you, if you just zoom in in that room to that room, yeah, it could, it could also be spun as pretty creepy.

Yeah. Pretty heavy handed, you know? I mean, I think, I think in some ways, like speaking to that whole salvation decision thing, like we really celebrate it. Uh, I think we think we make a big deal of, uh, of salvation, obviously like, yeah, like that if you're a Christian versus if you're not a Christian, like it makes like, that's a huge thing.

Uh, but because it's so important and precious, uh, we, we, I think go out of our way to, uh, dial down the social pressure around that. Yeah. Like, Hey, make sure you're okay. Are you sure you want to think about it that you write down your thoughts? Um, and that wasn't the case, um, during those times when typical to Southern Baptist tradition, we would have a quote unquote altar call every Sunday and people would come up and, and there would be that decision time, you know, and to bring people to a crisis of decision where they have to like choose Jesus, you know, come to Jesus.

And, uh, that's not just, that's not just Southern Baptist. I mean, I went to charismatic, like, you know, and yeah, we did that too. Every Sunday, not every Sunday, but fairly often. Yeah. Just there was some way to respond. And, and, and I think that's healthy in all sorts of ways.

I think I missed that. Uh, you know, the, the modern day, like seeker driven service where it has to be very slick and like end right there, you know, when I go to charismatic churches and they just have a worship set that's for like an hour and a half and people trickle out and the lights are, sort of dim and some people pray.

And then it leads to like kind of talking here and there. I love that. And we, we have that after retreat sometimes, but anyway, going back to, yeah. So yeah. Overeager. Um, and you know, high pressure. Uh, I don't think we know that, that that's what we're doing at times, but I think we do plenty.

And I'm, I'm sure that sort of stuff happens nowadays too. Ouch. Ouch. All right. Well, let's move on. Similar, uh, similar to the, the whole followup thing. Let's, let's talk about this one. Um, so we've heard a couple of stories similar to this, but basically the details of this one, um, where there was a form, uh, for church planting, you know, to sign up.

That's how we get people to sign up volunteers, like the Google form. We send out an interest form saying, Hey, would you be interested in potentially going on a church plant? You know, that's how we formed our teams and things. Um, but this particular person talks about how after that form went out, they didn't feel ready, didn't fill it out.

Uh, and they got a text saying, Hey, could you come over and could we talk? And their leader invited them to their home and they had a talk and it wasn't like a rebuke. It wasn't like shouting or anything, but they asked, you know, how come you didn't sign up?

And the person said, uh, I just didn't feel ready. You know, I don't feel ready at this time to go on a church plant. And the leader basically, uh, said, you know what I think to the effect of, I think you're staying here, uh, out of a desire for comfort and out of a desire to keep your well-paying job here in the Bay.

Um, so can you just react to that, please? Sorry. Okay. So here I am thinking everybody's volunteering, but that's the sort of thing that goes on. Um, I think for the most part, um, the spirit of our church planting is people do sign up, uh, voluntarily. And, um, and then when the form closes, I get like tons of emails saying, I was just still thinking about it.

Can you reopen the form? And, um, so I think by and large, it is, it is what it seems to be on the surface. Um, but I put in a, you know, I designed those forms and I, and I put in all these, um, outs, you know, like, um, so like we say, oh, people volunteer, but, um, people say, so one of the choices is like, send me out.

I'm ready to go. No reservations. And, and then another choice is like, um, I'm willing to go as part of my commitment to Christ. So like, okay, well, that, that, that, that could be, you know, you could, it depends on the tone, right? That one, like, yeah, I'm willing to go, you know, or yeah, I'm willing to go.

And then third is like, I have some concerns, but I'm willing to go or, you know, so, and then, and then state your concerns. And then those concerns could be job, could be aging parents, could be, you know, like, I really try to break into this field and I just got a job.

Uh, it wouldn't be a good, good time for me to leave. Like, so all of those, those reasons are taken seriously into account, especially the, like, I just got a tech job as English major. I finally got a tech job, like, no, you stay, you stay. Um, you know, like, uh, me and my wife were trying to conceive or in the middle of, uh, you know, some kind of treatment around that all know you stay.

Uh, you know, my parents are in and out of the hospital right now and they live in San Jose, like, or they live nearby. Okay. You stay. So there's, there's a lot of reasons why people like, you know, I, I'm reaching out to a bunch of students and they're, they're irregular, but they're really coming around.

Okay. You stay. Um, we, so anyway, going back to this, like calling somebody in and saying like, Hey, you should, why, why didn't you sign up? Um, like again, they get, I guess it depends on the relationship. Like, wow. I thought you you're, you're eager to sign up. I'm surprised you didn't.

So it could be that kind of conversation, but then, but then to carry that to a sort of an accusation, like it's because you want to hold on to your, like, what if that's true? Right. Cause you know, you, you kind of think, you know, people. So like, I know you like, you know, okay.

What if that's true as a leader to do that? Um, like, I think as a friend to do that, Hey, I thought we're going to go on a church plant together. Like you just, you just holding onto that job because there are stock options like in two years. Right.

You know, like friends can accuse each other of that. Like, no, shut up. What do you know? Like, because it's an equal relationship. You could, yeah, you could push back, but for, but for a leader to do that, Hey, I feel very uncomfortable about that. I don't think that should have happened.

So back in the days, going back to the altar call, people do this a lot. Um, I'm not going to necessarily say it's sister leaders all the time. I'm not going to necessarily say that, but, um, so there would be quote unquote, a perfect message for somebody. Yeah. Cause we were talking about it and like, you were struggling with, you know, your source of significance and whatever.

And here was a message, you know, on the Samaritan woman. And as a leader, like, I'm so expecting you to soak that message in and respond, but alas, you know, there's no response. And the, by response, I mean, she didn't come forward. Right. We used to have 40 people come forward, uh, and, and everybody gets prayed for.

So then the service ends, but it doesn't end until the last person gets prayed for. Uh, but, but anyway, so all the leaders are eagerly waiting. So, okay, that didn't happen. And then they would follow up. There's that word again. And I'm like, no wonder so many people are coming out.

Right. Cause if you get talked to, even in the sweetest, Oh, did you, what did you think about that? Like, because you didn't really respond. Even if that's what happened, what does that do? It ruins all future rededication times, all future altar calls because, Oh, now it's about, Oh, is this relevant to me?

Cause then I should come out. Um, so that, so then you're ruining it. Right. So, so there's this sort of, you're setting a precedent, you're, you're kind of affecting the fee. So I would, I would say, don't follow up. Don't ever talk to anybody about why they didn't come forward.

Maybe they fell asleep. You know, I always say, I'm actually a preacher that's very forgiving about people falling asleep. I am because, because people fall asleep at the wheel and they could die. Right. So it's such a comfortable and, you know, like high CO2 levels, people feel sleepy anyway.

Uh, Is that why we got rid of those? Yeah. Cause I remember, I remember those times when we used to have it every Sunday, but yeah, our freshman year, it still happened every year. Yeah. You know, we got rid of it partially because of that, uh, partially because it would, uh, just kind of freak out people who are here for the first time.

And then there are people in the front and they're being prayed over. And we kind of pray Korean style full prone where you get on your hands and knees and pray like this. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of weird. No, I appreciated some of those things we did out of consideration for like the non-Christians coming.

Cause I, I didn't even know that like doing like praise songs could make them feel uncomfortable. Like what is this mass karaoke? You know, I came from like, I was leading praise and everything. So I thought that was normal. Yeah. We think that's the most natural thing. You think about it.

Who looks at a screen and sings together? Yeah. Nobody does. That's true. Nobody does that. And we think it's the most natural thing. Kind of kind of one follow up question from this scenario. So I have heard you at staff meetings and in public kind of say stuff like this, like don't follow up on things like this.

And I've heard it's opt in, like don't fall. And yet I would say the practice persists. What is your best theory about why people keep doing these kinds of things? Like, is it, do they think they're the exception? I think, yeah. You know, if, if what drives people to do, do this, um, is, is something like they're driven to do it.

So, so the thinking and the training, like, oh yeah, I shouldn't do it. I should play the movie. What does this look like? How could this be misinterpreted? Like those filters aren't there when you're in the moment. Right? So like people lose their tempers. They know that's bad and they'll, they'll, they'll still do it because they're in the moment and feeling this.

I think what they're feeling is insecurity and, uh, maybe, uh, over eager, sincere desire for the good of somebody. Right. And that's why I think it's kind of, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this. Should I just say, no, you know, I should just say this, like, you know, and that's why sisters do this more.

Yeah. Guys, guys don't really think about that. Because guys prize leaving each other alone. That's true. At a level that most women just don't understand. Mm-hmm. Uh, so anyway, and that's why, that's why this kind of ministry goes over. Yeah. Yeah. Relatively okay too, because, oh, you care about me.

Yeah. Like they'll interpret it like that. But I think in the moment it's, and then, so the incentive structure, uh, I think is, is, is sort of what's at stake too, uh, what's at play too, because, um, like I, I want people to make spiritual progress. Right. Under my leadership.

Yeah. And then that makes me, that validates me as a leader. And, uh, you know, everybody struggles with that. I mean, I want people to be quote unquote blessed by my message because that validates me as, as a preacher. And that makes me want to put together like a good message.

Right. So it's not that we don't want to live in a incentive free world. It's just that some of these incentives can create these kinds of like blundery kind of clumsy ministry, you know, going back to what you're saying earlier about precedent too. It's kind of like, you tend to lead people the way that you were led as well.

Yeah. Like, yeah. And it's hard to unlearn those things. Yeah. It was really beneficial for you. And then like, you know, but then now it's, it's, it's like a different generation, a different culture attitudes, everything's changed, but you're just sort of like, well, that was done to me and it was good.

And someone did. Yeah. So, so to go back to the Manny and Ender, like example, like Ender, Ender will say like, oh yeah, you know, Manny didn't leave me alone. And he pestered me, he called me seven times a week. And, and I'm so glad he did. I'm just making this up.

I don't know if that happened. Um, let's say, yeah. And then he says, well, that's what I'm going to do because man, that was good for me. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, that might've been good for you. Yeah. But what about all the other people who, who voted with their feet and whose voices are not here.

And in meetings, I consider it one of my roles is to represent them, you know, because they don't have a voice. That's a, that's a really good word for all leaders actually to represent the people not in the room. Like that's, that's gold. Well, because, because, you know, personal, personal stories are so powerful.

Yeah. And so, oh yeah. Like when this person, uh, I ignored their texts for, you know, five weeks and then they finally came to my door and somehow got into the dorm and knocked on my door. Then I realized, oh, I feel really loved. I'm like, oh yeah, let's keep doing that.

You know, it's like, no, what about all the people that would be freaked out by that? Like they're not there. Their voices are just, so we, we select for the people, uh, who have responded to our style of ministry. And so we keep repeating it. Like maybe not a good idea, you know, not necessarily.

The, uh, should we move on to the next one? Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. So, uh, we're nearing our end. Two more. Um, so this one is, um, one of our, one of our, another one of our friends, uh, he's a church plant lead now. So he's good.

He's fine. He's good. But this was his junior year and he had just, he had been under one small group leader, freshman and sophomore year. And as a junior, he went into this other leader and it was at a retreat and they were sharing and moments where it's like, wow.

Like it was like a good retreat. People had been convicted and, um, everyone was going around and sharing like vulnerable stuff, right? Kind of like they were sharing their sins and sort of, it was clear that kind of, okay. The expectation here is that you're going to open up and be vulnerable.

And then when it got to this particular guy, um, he, he was having trouble and he, he, he was being really kind of vague and unclear. He didn't want to share. I think he just did. Yeah. He says he just didn't want to share vulnerably. So he was having trouble kind of saying anything.

And then at a certain point, his leader at the time, this new leader, this new leader jumped in and said, the reason you're having so much trouble, I don't know the exact words, but something along the lines of the reason you're having so much trouble is I think it's just because you're proud in front of everyone else in the group.

Like it's just your pride and you just, you just don't want to be honest because you're proud. And then he made him go and read the book out of the depths and reflect on that after that. Um, so they're both still around. They're good friends. Yeah. We had breakfast with both of them this morning.

We talked to both of them about this, but we laugh about it. Yeah. We laugh about it now, but what is your, uh, what is your reaction to that one? That one? Have you heard? You haven't heard that one, right? I've never heard that one. Okay. Uh, I've never heard that one.

And wow. Um, so vulnerable sharing, uh, you know, maybe, maybe we should, maybe I should do a series of rants about sharing, about sharing, vulnerable sharing, you know, there are a lot of things that are really good that are, that are so good that it can never be forced, you know?

And, uh, I've always found guys share not when they're face to face, but when they're side by side. Yeah. And, uh, that's why I don't do sharing. That's why when I gather even with you guys, I don't, frankly, I just don't want to hear it. No, I really don't want to hear it because I think it's so unnatural.

Like there are a bunch of people and, um, Hey, what'd you get out of the message? Or like, Hey, how are you doing? You know, like share, um, there's something about that circle. It's just so unnatural. And, uh, we in the church kind of force these like really unnatural things.

Now, when there's something supernatural happens and the Holy Spirit hits and everybody's just swept up in it, you know, so I'm not saying I'm not going to privilege only natural and spontaneous and chill, although I, and I, but I do personality wise. I think that's kind of a personality defect.

I don't like open displays of sentimentality. I like to keep it understated, you know, but anyway, oh gosh, I'm just going off. But no, I, I really, I really think that was a big blunder. I think again, like let's analyze that from the perspective of precedent. Everybody else is learning, dude, I better share vulnerably next time, you know, and it's like offering, you know, juicy piece of meat to, to a carnivore.

It's like, my leader wants something. And what, what does the leader want? Vulnerability, because what, that's an assurance that you're being honest, right? And that you are, you are humble. I think what the guy said to him is technically true. If you, if you accuse any, any bro of pride, you're, you're likely to be 90% right.

Right. Because it all traces to that. Yeah. You know, I think it was beyond inartful. I think that was, that was bad. And I wouldn't do that. And I would have had problems with somebody doing that, calling somebody out in public like that. I think I would have rescued him right away.

It's like, hey, maybe you don't feel like sharing vulnerably, you know, not everybody has to, and just moved on. Right. So yeah, I guess maybe there's a little bit of like, anyway, yeah, don't. So, so the thing about vulnerable sharing is also, even in one on one settings, like this was awful, because it was after it was that front of other people.

So it humiliates him, as well as creating this atmosphere for the next time you share. But even one on one people want, quote unquote, vulnerable sharing. And I think that's a signal of, of I'm being trusted. And I think if you're an insecure leader, you want to, you want assurance that you're trusted.

And the way you feel trusted is when somebody shares vulnerably. And because you want that so much, you almost like subtly or maybe not so subtly orchestrate that. And I think it's a bad idea. It's a bad idea. All right, we're gonna move on to the final one here.

And this one, this one is a little, little different. But it's something that a lot of us look back on who were undergrads at the time as sort of a kind of it was like a epoch defining time. Yeah, it was kind of an inflection mode. Or it was, yeah, it was, we're talking about the bros night.

You're in the bros night? The bros night. So yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I look back at it with gratitude. Yeah, I just want mixed because I feel like we've just never talked about it as a church in some ways after that. But we talk about it, you know, kind of internally, there was a lot of like, talking about it.

And just sort of like, well, that works. Yeah, but I thought most of you have never heard from you on that. I answered a lot of emails about that. Oh, did you really? Yeah, so I just want to go over the details. And I just want kind of maybe like a retrospective on that just to kind of, I don't know, get your thoughts on it, really.

But so at the time, we it was when we had started inner high ministry, all bros Bible study, the theme was love, even high schoolers, yeah, high schoolers all the way up to like the oldest of us. And we had just started the inner high ministry. And for those who don't know, inner high ministry is this, it's one of our favorite ministries where we go and provide youth services for churches that can't afford a youth pastor, often ethnic churches, where the language of the parents is a different language.

And, you know, the kids can't understand often. So we send our own team, and we go in and act as their youth leader. Yeah. And so there was this amazing story that had happened, because you can't find these ethnic churches, they don't have websites, like, it's hard, it's difficult.

So we're like, our teams were literally driving, and just like walking, oh, there's, and then just walking out, just introducing themselves. And there's this amazing story of like, this woman who was like, I've been praying, you guys are an answer to pray. And immediately, can you come, like right now and lead the game and preach the message and all that, right?

It was like, yeah, kind of confirmed for us, like, this is the direction we should go. And since then, we've had so many stories like that of people saying, we've been praying for our youth. So yeah, yeah. So in the moment, it was, it was moving. Yeah, I remember sitting there, I was a junior at the time, we presented it to everyone.

And you were sort of explaining the inner high ministry. And at a certain point, you asked something along the lines of like, how many of you would want to help out with this ministry, and you don't go serve other churches in this way, I think fully expecting that there would be kind of an overwhelming response.

And instead, I think the number of hands that went up among the because I think you asked the college students, the number of hands that went up among the college guys was maybe in the single digits, what do you think? I think it was single digits. The teens were single digits.

Yeah. And I remember because I was sitting next to my brother, Noah, who at the time was in high school, him looking around and going, wow, that's inspiring. Like in this very, and I was like, oh, it hurt. And I want to say, for the record, we both did raise our hands.

But we were all feeling it like, yeah, we were like, oh, that's what just happened. It's a really moving story. And then no one is responding. Yeah. And then you asked again. Yeah. So you actually clarified. You said, I'm not saying like right at this moment, but how many of you, maybe you're in another ministry serving.

Maybe you got like, you know, whatever. Right. But, but what you would be interested, like in theory, you know, or, or, you know, given if you had time, you would like to, and maybe like another five or 10 hands went up, you know, in a room of hundreds. Yeah.

And, um, basically you, you went off on the room and you, uh, if that, well, that was, that was a rebuke. It was a rebuke. You know, it was, it was shouted. It was, you know, at the whole room. And it wasn't very long. It wasn't long. It was brief.

It was, and basically, yeah, it rebuked us for, for basically just having no heart and lack of love. Um, and the whole theme of the night was love overpowers. It was very, like the juxtaposition was very clear. Um, and then kind of it, you said, okay, well, we have, uh, RSF reserved after this, which is the gym at Berkeley.

So we paid the fee. Let's all go play sports guys. And, uh, and then, you know, most, I remember I went home with you after that. Cause I didn't know you, me knowing you, we drove home and talked about that, but, um, boy. And it was, man, I mean, a lot of people will look back on that and say that was really good for them.

I remember like our peers gathering and talking about it, the class below me, like gathering and just spontaneously they just gathered and prayed like without the leaders or anything. And, and said, yeah, like, gosh, we like, where is our heart? And so for a lot of people, it was really good.

And I mean, I thought, I thought even for a lot of like non-Christians who were there, they were like, whoa, like that's kind of, yeah, this church takes this seriously, but not everyone took it that way for sure. Um, there were some people who thought were very offended, thought that was really appropriate.

So I just want to ask like, okay, looking back on that now with the benefit of hindsight, I think that was about what, 15 years ago, it was probably 2010 or 12 years ago. Um, yeah, like, how do you, how do you think about that? And like, would you do the same thing again?

Or what would you do? That's like a major cringe. It makes me wince every time I think about it. Um, it's one of those moments where I had no idea that's what was going to happen. I was just so shocked. And I don't know what happened because that's not, uh, how our church or that group of college students were.

I mean, that's not, I mean, so you guys were juniors that year? We were juniors. Yeah. I mean, the very next year as seniors, you guys each started, uh, separate, uh, you know, ministry groups and there was high morale, high passion, high commitment, high volunteerism. The class above and below us.

And I don't know what, maybe they were shell shocked. Maybe they were just thinking. Some people explained to me later, like, actually it was, I don't know why I didn't raise my hand. Uh, um, a lot of people, um, you know, griped about it. I, I know at least one, probably more, uh, left because of that.

Uh, and, um, yeah. Well, you know, I think, um, occasionally pastors, um, going very Old Testament prophetic on, on the group, uh, is actually appropriate. I think rebuke is probably, um, like most appropriate to, to groups, you know, kind of a scriptural rebuke, um, rather than, you know, one-on-one, uh, and not, not, not that one-on-one is completely off the table, but, uh, the thing that I regret about that is it wasn't planned.

Uh, it wasn't, uh, thought out. I was shocked. Uh, and I think, um, because it was a bros night, I think there was this sort of expectation that like we should like go charge up the mountain and like tackle dragons and, and, and, and to see this tepid response, uh, very calculating, like, hmm, can I really do that?

But in some ways it's, I guess that people are calculating, okay, if I'm going to raise my hand, I want to back it up. So I need some time to think, uh, I didn't receive it like that. Uh, but maybe, maybe that's so it, that, that, that evening feels surreal to me to this day.

Like, I don't know why people didn't respond because our prayer meetings during that time at first press was very fervent and yeah, it's like, what happened? You know, was it something about the way I spoke? But then my reaction definitely, uh, was, was like unwise. Uh, you just, you, it was just one of these moments.

I, yeah, makes, makes me cringe. Yeah. Hmm. Oh, sorry for bringing that up. Yeah. Thanks a lot. I'm thankful for your thoughts on that because I mean, yeah, I mean, in retrospect, I, I, yeah, I think it was good for us personally. That's my take on it. Personally. Yeah.

I think we were talking about this for a while. I mean, like I didn't cuss or anything, you know, just for the record, you know, it felt OT profit. Yeah. But anyway, um, so that's all that we had. We did want to ask, well, um, well, I think like just to kind of wrap up that whole stories part, like we talked about sort of the response, you know, we got your reaction to it, but I think those reactions kind of captured different levels of response we've had.

Like, I mean, we're not a, we're a ministry that is pretty open about those mistakes. We talk about those things and we joke and laugh, but then we learn from it too. Right. And so there's like, like what you just demonstrated a level of personal response to it. Like, you know, and I've had that before just as a leader thinking about going, oh geez, why did I do that?

You know, and kind of personal growth there's, and then there's things where it's like reflective of our church and like, oh, okay, that has to change about our whole church. And then we talk about that, you know, and we, we try and, and there's challenges to actually moving that elephant, you know, steering the ship the right way.

Um, and then, um, and so there's kind of different levels of response to that. Right. And, and I think that's something that people maybe don't appreciate or, or, or understand is, is, is that, um, at multiple levels we are responding, you know, and it's just not sort of like this.

It's, it's, I don't, I don't know what I'm really trying to say, but. Well, I guess maybe one question is, do you have any thoughts on like, kind of as a church, what, what does it look like to like grow in these ways? Because a lot of these, like you said, are cultural, it's very kind of visceral.

Some of it, some of it is just learned. And there's like this, been this thing that gets passed down and can like, how do we as a church kind of improve and just try our best to make sure that these sorts of things don't happen? Like, I know it's a pretty broad question, but do you have any thoughts?

I mean, to certain extent they're always going to happen. Yeah. To an extent people are always going to make mistakes. People are always going to be insecure. Oh man, this, this has gone long, but man, I, I have multi-level answers to this. So I think about it a lot, right.

Because I wonder, okay, what can we do to change? And, um, you know, the, the, these are, these are stubborn things to change a low EQ, but man, how do you change that? Right? Not reading the other person, not thinking about how does this feel like to be on the receiving end of me?

Uh, it's great training. I think when people do that and make these blunders and then they think through it, it's like they, they end up becoming better employees, better moms and dads and, you know, better parents, but well, boy, in the, in the process. So there, there, there, there are several things like one thing, um, you know, we've got a lot, a lot, a lot of, uh, lay leaders, you know, trying really hard.

And, um, I, I've compared, I think the malpractice thing came out because my analogy was a teaching hospital, you know, like the teaching hospital is going to have to raise up physicians. Uh, and boy, do they, do they get rebuked when they make a mistake? I mean, that's one of the most hierarchical and scary relationships.

The, the attending physician with their young residents, you know, and these are guys that finished med school, but you know, it's medicine is in the practice of it. And so they, and everything from bad bedside manners to, uh, complete misdiagnosis to blunders in medication. Uh, and, uh, you know, like, Hey, do you guys commit malpractice here at UCSF med school?

And, um, I don't know, I don't know if they'd admit it, but it's like, yeah, it happens. I've saved a couple, like, you know, uh, so, uh, you know, so I, I can say, Hey, you know, it's going to happen. It's sort of like, you're going to build a high rise, certain amount of, you know, industrial accidents are going to happen.

I guess callous of course, but, uh, and, and I wouldn't say that, but, um, how do you, how to, how to change this? I think we've, we've tried to change it at the incentive level, you know, and we are constantly studying the unintended consequences of certain good things. Like we pursue a good thing.

There are unintended consequences. Uh, we pursue something, maybe that's too much. The pendulum needs to swing back. So all of that learning process happens, uh, in an organization and individual leaders trying to do this thing. that's really, really difficult, which is to, uh, build trust and, um, uh, commend the gospel to a non-Christian.

And then when they become Christian to try to help them along to become the most, uh, uh, amazing representation of Christ. Yeah. Right. Uh, that that's really tough. And all of that happens through interpersonal influence and through the word of God. Right. So, so as we're trying to do this, uh, I'm thinking, okay, so how many blunders can you make before you don't get another chance?

And, um, I think about the people who've taken to the internet and, you know, telling these stories and, you know, we, we kind of talked about this in, in the most lighthearted framework possible, you know, uh, but there are, there are, there are worse stories. Oh yeah. And they are, um, they are not one-offs.

They're, they're isolated so that it's not widespread, but they're the sorts of things that, that can happen. And these are stories of people who are still here. There are a lot of people who are not here for whom that story is their last story and that experience then grows in their mind.

And as they think about our church, that's the thing that grows and that's the thing that grows and they're going to write about it. And of course, everybody else looks at that and say, okay, that's who they are. Uh, and I, I heard a mess message. Uh, you know, they, they take the worst part of you and make that your profile picture.

Whereas your life is a video, you know, uh, and it's like, it's like Peter denying Jesus, uh, versus, you know, uh, him repenting. And, um, so, and I look at, um, kind of the unkindness toward large successful institutions and you know what, um, you don't have that many chances because your blunders become, uh, stories that become permanently etched in the world wide web.

And, um, and individuals, I think individual redemption stories are more accepted. Institutional redemption stories are often not because, uh, these stories are taken to be self-serving, um, defensive, uh, you know, you have big corporations issuing a blanket apologies, um, that are sort of crafted. And so there's cynicism. Uh, so how many of these stories and how many of these, um, like blunders and people making clumsy ministry relational decisions, uh, can we absorb and survive is, is, is, is a question, uh, that's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a probing question.

Like it's a, and, um, my conclusion is that, um, it's a losing battle. Uh, and I don't know what to do with that conclusion. Um, but you know, we're going to be spending, um, a lot of time, uh, apologizing and training and trying to, uh, uh, redress this, but as long as we believe in a ministry where we are trying to obey the call to make disciples, um, rather than a teaching ministry or rather than a ministry where, um, we are not as close.

We're not in each, each other's homes all the time. And, um, but if we are going to obey the make disciples and be in each other's homes and, you know, keep watch over one another and help each other become sanctified and be like living stones, you know, tightly, uh, together, like, as long as we're going to be engaged in that ministry, I think we have to have a way more, uh, dispersed, uh, expression of our church where we're not seen as a big institution.

And, um, you know, in some ways that's our future anyway, uh, because at a certain scale, uh, the effort required to align and to be on the same page and to coordinate all of our efforts so that, you know, we're in 30, 38 cities, I always forget the number.

I mean, we're, we're 1600, just staff, um, by vocational ministers and trying to, and we still feel like one big tribe. I mean, trying to keep that, uh, while in each location, you're carrying on your ministry without. So, okay. So let me back up. Big part of this is, uh, the layers too.

It's like a telephone game. Like, like your leader above you can say, oh, hey, where, where was Joe that freshman this past Friday? Um, you know, he came, but, oh, he suddenly didn't come. Do you know where he is? And if you're the freshman staff and Joe is your, one of your guys, you say, oh, well, I don't know.

And that doesn't feel like you're, you're a good shepherd there. So then, so then you better know. Yeah. So then I feel that way when my wife asked me, where was this person? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. It's like, what are you going to do? Like none of my business.

Am I my brother's keeper? You know, but it's, it's really crazy that just that innocent question causes behavior among the freshmen staff that is actually shooting us in the feed and, and, and making, making us this like high pressure pestering group. Like, Hey man, where were you? Even if you asked the nicest way, it's like, why are you asking me?

Yeah. Cause that's so bizarre. Right. And so there's an example of unintended consequence. Just having a leader ask you about your ministry can trigger behavior that that leader never even intended. Yeah. So I feel like we've got to get flat. We've got to get small. We've got to, we've got to become more or less autonomous in terms of our tactics and strategy, and even some of our values.

Uh, I, I think, I think they're important values and then they're less important values that have sort of, um, you know, I, like, like I, I, I analogize it to like those, those big rocks at tide pools with like stubborn barnacles that are, it's like, it's like we have pressed it.

Like we don't have, those aren't even our values. And, and we, so we can't keep stripping them down by me, like going on these rants. It doesn't seem to do much. Uh, I think, I think what we need to do is we need to simplify our values, uh, simplify our structure, uh, become a lot more dispersed, uh, so that the burden of upholding all of these things, uh, get taken off of guys like you guys, and you're, you're free to sort of start building, uh, like maybe, maybe new rhythms, new values that, that fits this culture, this campus, this team.

And I know when I start talking like this, like different people, um, get sad. Yeah. And, um, you know, but Kelly and I, we're turning 60 next year. And, um, yeah, like I don't want to, I don't want to be 65 and suddenly retire, leaving our church in the lurch, right?

I want to, I want to plan for a new expression of our church in which the current group of leaders are sort of like, uh, a council of the wise, uh, available to consult rather than, uh, try to control and direct and, and, uh, and kind of keep everything together as one.

And, and that future is, um, kind of exciting to me personally. Um, so, um, I think, I think we have to sort of navigate through that. Uh, so still some of this will happen. Yeah. But I think it'll get, these things will get redressed and, and we can pivot much quicker, uh, in this kind of future.

Yeah. Cool. If I could, I don't know, just take an attempt to like sum that up for people that the way that I've thought about it is sort of like, we're, we're, we're mom and pop family, like kind of group that got to a scale that feels really institutional and like we're struggling to deal with some of the challenges and realities that come with that wide institution.

And in some ways we don't even come to grips with that identity because we still feel like the mom and pop. So you don't even know that you're actually perceived as institution. Right. And so then maybe the key is to change something so that there's go back the other way, you know, and maybe just get smaller in some ways.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, um, I think final, just kind of, final question, um, would be, I want to get a little bit into the online stuff. So, so I think just one thing there's, there's a lot of accusations out there that you've had in the past that you're kind of a denier that our church has issues that you say, I don't, I mean, I don't think you've ever said this, but that you've said there's nothing to the online criticism and it's all fabrication.

So just, just to set the record straight, could you just react to that? Like, is that, is that your reaction to the online criticism that there's nothing to it? No. Um, I don't, I don't think, well, I mean, who knows what I, what I've said? Um, like, did I say that?

Like maybe there's nothing to the online criticism in, in like, in a particular instance of the online criticism? Online criticism has been with us since 2006. Uh, it's, it's been ever present. I think the current iteration of it is the most intense though. Um, and maybe that's a reflection of of not just the stories that are on there, but kind of, kind of the direction that our culture has gotten where there's a lot more, uh, like a frightened, uh, response, uh, to, to, to these kinds of allegations.

Uh, but in, in every iteration of our online criticism, um, I, I experienced a bunch of things. First initial, uh, woundedness, bewilderment, but, uh, like, man, the way this person writes and what this person is saying, she'd be really surprised or he'd be really surprised how much I agree with what they're saying.

It's just that it's just, if you could see the bigger picture, if you can see the bigger picture. Um, you know, I, I think when I, you know, like what you, you guys are married, like when, when you have marital strife, like you're, you're capable of thinking a certain way about your spouse, right?

And, and you just take that like, you can like, wow, your spouse is a monster, right? But there's a context and there's the sort of the ups as well as the downs, as well as the, you know, so, um, so it's, it's like even the most surreal painting, um, you kind of recognize what's being depicted and that's almost always been my experience.

So I recognize that. Uh, the other thing is, I, I very strongly object to the fact that this is put on the internet and, you know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite. Uh, I'm, I'm very, um, very suspicious of technology's, uh, impact on, uh, turning life and turning people into a certain way.

Um, but we're supposed to deal with this, uh, in house internally. We, as in Christians, we, we Christians and the way Christians call out each other and, um, and kind of take on, uh, secular categories of abuser and the abused and one side are just villainous, um, and, and demonic.

And, you know, that that's the way the world works because there's no hope or grace or, uh, or, or the larger perspective that I'm a sinner, you know, just like DL Moody's famous thing about somebody writing slanderous stuff about him on the, on the newspaper and say, well, if the man knew me really, he would have a lot more things to say.

And that's sort of my stance. Um, even though a lot of the stuff that's written about me personally is actually straight up false, not just accusations of like, he's a totalitarian. Maybe that's true. I don't know, but like factual allegations about our finances and things like that. It's like, like I actually know that that's false.

So there, there, you know, so there, there's all, all of that. But, but aside from those straight up false things, like, I think, okay, well, I should take a beating, you know, um, we should all take a beating every now and then. And, you know, like worse aspects of us, like, yeah, you did that.

Like, you know, we, we tend to forget that. Right. And the, these online criticisms are great reminder, like, Hey, you know, we do some really goofy things and worse. And we've done that. That's on us. I just wish that wouldn't stay, uh, permanently forever on the internet. And for everyone who's trying to give us some kind of chance to read that and get spooked and run away and they don't get access to the gospel.

And, um, you know, we really try hard to preach the gospel evangelistically. And that's the part that then makes me look at the whole thing and, and think the whole project is illegitimate. Even though the specific posters and the postings are like, oh man, if we talked about this face to face, we could totally have a meeting of the minds.

Yes. Emotionally, it just feels like, ah, why are you doing this? And it gets hard personally to separate that out from, okay, these are legitimate criticisms from like, why do you have to do with this? But I definitely experienced that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think everything you said is, is a good word, not only for like our own church members to kind of think about, but like, I mean, it's not just our church.

It's all pastors, churches facing this sort of thing and, and, and all Christians kind of getting like really entangled in the mug of all this. And I think there needs to be like, almost like a fresh movement of Christian civility online. Yeah. Fresh commitment to civility. That would be really nice.

Yeah. If all Christians could act like Jesus online, that would be a great witness to the world, you know? Yeah. But man, I, I think that's a great place to, that's a great place to end. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Very, very illuminating. I think people will find it pretty helpful to just hear this from your lips.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. And so I hope that gave people really good perspectives. So like, subscribe, Pastor Ed, you got to like and subscribe to this podcast. All right. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks for joining us on the unofficial, official Grace Point Podcast. See you guys next week.

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