Leaving Judgment and Loving Others ft. Judah Smith
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat hip hop music)
00:00:03.240 | - Welcome to another episode of Curious Mike.
00:00:11.880 | I'm here with Judah Smith.
00:00:13.240 | I call him the GOAT.
00:00:14.560 | What's good with you, bro?
00:00:17.300 | - So good.
00:00:18.140 | I'm so excited to be doing this.
00:00:19.260 | We've been talking about it for a while.
00:00:20.600 | Your haircut looks absolutely sensational right now.
00:00:23.680 | - Stop, bro.
00:00:25.040 | Man, my first question for you is,
00:00:27.480 | so like I tell you this all the time,
00:00:28.760 | you're one of the most humble and good human beings
00:00:31.600 | that I know.
00:00:32.440 | - Thank you for saying that.
00:00:33.260 | - But you're kind of a big deal.
00:00:34.520 | Like you're a pastor in this big church.
00:00:36.800 | You know, you have a huge following,
00:00:38.960 | but it didn't always start out like that.
00:00:40.440 | Like it didn't, you know,
00:00:42.840 | I want to know if you always envisioned it
00:00:44.960 | being as big as it is now,
00:00:46.760 | or did it just kind of come naturally?
00:00:50.900 | - Yeah, I think of course the right answer is no, I didn't,
00:00:55.900 | but it's actually true.
00:00:57.120 | Like I think I always had a sense
00:00:58.960 | that I wanted to make a big difference in people's lives,
00:01:01.160 | and I just enjoyed making people feel happy,
00:01:03.780 | feel like they could do what God put in them to do,
00:01:06.600 | and the dreams that are in them.
00:01:07.760 | And so one of our models in our family
00:01:09.820 | is we want to make people feel like they can fly.
00:01:12.280 | And there's a lot of ways to do that.
00:01:14.280 | Thank you, that's nice.
00:01:15.800 | And I have to credit Michael Jordan, come fly with me.
00:01:18.120 | Like, Judah, that's not related, you know?
00:01:20.940 | But I watched that a hundred million times.
00:01:23.600 | But yeah, man, I just wanted to serve people
00:01:27.020 | and to be honest, I wanted to be a youth pastor
00:01:29.760 | for my whole life, that was the goal.
00:01:31.480 | And then stuff happened with my dad and his health,
00:01:33.680 | and so I kind of got tricked into the lead pastor thing,
00:01:36.280 | but hanging out with young guys like you
00:01:39.040 | is still probably the funnest part of what I get to do.
00:01:42.960 | - My God, do you enjoy it?
00:01:46.080 | Like, is this what you wanted to be doing,
00:01:49.060 | and like, do you enjoy it?
00:01:50.000 | Or does it get sometimes like,
00:01:52.080 | you just wish you could live a different life,
00:01:54.040 | or is this like everything--
00:01:55.080 | - Yeah, I think probably like all of us, right?
00:01:57.100 | You have those moments where you're like,
00:01:58.220 | "Man, I kind of wish I did something else."
00:02:00.660 | But then you kind of wake up and go,
00:02:04.100 | "Actually, this is the best life ever."
00:02:06.700 | I will say that some of the collateral
00:02:09.140 | that comes with being a public pastor
00:02:13.020 | is when your kids get a little bit hurt, you know?
00:02:16.440 | They're like, "Yo, Dad, so-and-so not like us anymore,"
00:02:19.980 | or, "I think there's some people that don't like you,"
00:02:22.540 | and you're like, "Ah," and trying to explain
00:02:25.760 | some of the criticism and the critique,
00:02:27.540 | and I don't blame people for criticizing and critiquing.
00:02:30.540 | People care deeply about Scripture.
00:02:32.240 | They care deeply about integrity and character and morality,
00:02:35.040 | and these are things that I care about deeply as well.
00:02:37.760 | I think sometimes people think,
00:02:38.840 | "Well, if you dress a certain way,
00:02:40.680 | "or if you have certain friends,
00:02:42.340 | "you can't actually hold some sort of standard
00:02:45.300 | "of God's word," you know?
00:02:46.920 | But actually, you can, and we're endeavoring to do that.
00:02:50.400 | So I love this life.
00:02:51.740 | It comes with its challenges, but I chose it, man.
00:02:55.160 | - I actually was about to ask you this later
00:02:57.520 | about your kids.
00:02:58.360 | You brought up how they can ask you questions
00:03:01.320 | about what's going on with certain people,
00:03:02.920 | why do they not like me anymore.
00:03:04.600 | Do you ever worry about your kids being pastor's kids
00:03:07.840 | and the challenges that kind of come along with that?
00:03:10.480 | - Yeah, I do, man, and I think you know what it's like.
00:03:15.480 | Your parents were public figures as well,
00:03:18.440 | and you know what it's like when your parents
00:03:20.680 | are example Christians, like Christian examples.
00:03:24.000 | There comes a pressure.
00:03:25.860 | You and all your brothers and sisters are like,
00:03:27.320 | "Well, we gotta be good, I guess, too,"
00:03:29.160 | and so you know what that's like, and it is challenging.
00:03:31.920 | I think one of the reasons our kids
00:03:35.320 | are in the L.A. public school system
00:03:37.580 | is so that they would receive exposure.
00:03:40.240 | I believe in education a lot.
00:03:42.640 | I just might believe in exposure more.
00:03:44.600 | It might be the greatest form of education,
00:03:46.740 | and I wanted them to be cultured.
00:03:49.260 | I wanted them to be challenged.
00:03:50.640 | I wanted them to really experience life,
00:03:53.340 | and I think as a result, the church bubble
00:03:57.000 | that's somewhat a part of my life,
00:03:59.580 | it isn't everything for the Smith family.
00:04:02.200 | You know what I mean?
00:04:03.040 | - They're very, like, yeah, like I've been around them,
00:04:05.080 | they're like cool kids.
00:04:06.480 | (laughing)
00:04:07.580 | I remember me-- - Thank you for saying that.
00:04:09.060 | - Yeah, for me growing up, I was homeschooled
00:04:11.520 | all the way until eighth grade,
00:04:12.520 | and I remember going into school in eighth grade
00:04:15.340 | and literally, like, I didn't know what was going on.
00:04:18.020 | These kids were talking about stuff I had never heard about.
00:04:20.580 | They were doing stuff I didn't even know
00:04:22.660 | was a thing for kids my age,
00:04:24.500 | and so, like, that point that you bring up
00:04:26.220 | about, like, exposure, I know every parent
00:04:28.720 | parents differently, but I could definitely see
00:04:30.780 | that being, like, big, especially for pastor's kids,
00:04:33.720 | so they're not just, like, little weirdos, you know what I mean?
00:04:37.020 | - Well, whatever your parents did,
00:04:38.780 | I will go on record on Curious Mike right now
00:04:41.540 | and just say they have raised some of the most considerate,
00:04:46.260 | kind, socially skilled kids I've ever seen,
00:04:51.060 | and I mean that, I just love you, your siblings.
00:04:54.080 | Your parents are heroic to me,
00:04:55.740 | and it's not easy to raise kids these days, man.
00:04:58.860 | - Thank you, brother.
00:04:59.700 | - But you're an incredible example, for sure.
00:05:02.100 | - Thank you, brother.
00:05:02.940 | - I mean it. - So what about,
00:05:03.980 | so what about you and, like, your own struggles,
00:05:07.420 | your own temptations, like, as you grew into the limelight,
00:05:10.980 | becoming, you know, the pastor that you are,
00:05:13.100 | the big time pastor that you are,
00:05:15.260 | what, like, what do you struggle with?
00:05:17.980 | Or do you have, to me, you seem like a superhero,
00:05:20.780 | like, you don't deal with much temptation,
00:05:22.860 | but I know, like, everyone's human,
00:05:24.200 | so what do you deal with?
00:05:25.580 | - Yeah, I think the brokenness in all of us
00:05:28.160 | just has to be addressed, has to be identified, mitigated.
00:05:33.160 | I think there are things that I just won't do
00:05:36.460 | because I don't fully trust myself.
00:05:40.780 | I love who I am, I enjoy that,
00:05:43.480 | but I don't fully trust myself.
00:05:45.660 | And I think kind of any person who's like,
00:05:48.220 | "I totally trust myself."
00:05:49.460 | I'm like, "Well, I don't know if I trust that."
00:05:51.740 | You know, 'cause you really gotta be honest with yourself.
00:05:53.620 | So I don't travel alone, I don't meet with women one-on-one,
00:05:58.620 | I don't call women one-on-one, text with,
00:06:02.500 | I just, for me, a commitment, I'm a one-woman kind of guy,
00:06:07.500 | and I've just made that commitment.
00:06:09.660 | To say that there's no temptation there is silly,
00:06:12.020 | of course, but I made a commitment with my heart,
00:06:15.100 | my emotions, my eyes, my thoughts,
00:06:16.900 | and if you just take it a day at a time,
00:06:21.040 | it's a lot less overwhelming sometimes
00:06:22.780 | because we're so inundated.
00:06:24.220 | And obviously, I pray for you almost every day,
00:06:27.540 | and when I do, I constantly think of the unique challenges
00:06:31.300 | and temptations that come with being
00:06:32.700 | a handsome professional athlete, I might add.
00:06:35.820 | People do not know this about Curious Mike,
00:06:38.220 | but he was rated the best-looking Denver Nugget on the team.
00:06:42.360 | That's a fact, that's a fact.
00:06:45.300 | And I had to inform him, that's how humble this man is,
00:06:47.780 | he didn't even know that you won the fan vote,
00:06:50.980 | but I was proud. - You're crazy, man.
00:06:52.680 | - But there is unique temptations, isn't there,
00:06:54.340 | that come with leadership and people that know you,
00:06:57.620 | and so it's like before the emotion of a beautiful woman,
00:07:02.220 | before you get into a wrong situation,
00:07:04.820 | it's like owning your proclivities
00:07:06.700 | and tendencies and weaknesses.
00:07:08.460 | And the way you do that, by the way,
00:07:10.660 | is you say it out loud to close friends
00:07:13.300 | who know you and walk with you.
00:07:14.820 | Like, "Hey, this is what scares me."
00:07:16.700 | I'll never forget, I told my future father-in-law
00:07:19.260 | at the time, this is 22 years ago,
00:07:21.460 | he asked me before I got the permission
00:07:23.300 | to marry his daughter, he said, "What's your greatest fear?"
00:07:25.680 | And I was like, "Oh, man, shoot,
00:07:27.460 | "I don't know if I'm gonna tell him the truth," right?
00:07:29.940 | He goes, "Mine is suicide that I will commit."
00:07:32.660 | He goes, "My older brother committed suicide,
00:07:35.180 | "and that's mine."
00:07:36.020 | And when he did that, I was like,
00:07:37.380 | "I think that's odd, it's like I better match that."
00:07:39.820 | And I said, "My greatest fear is that I would cheat
00:07:42.420 | "on your daughter if I had the honor to marry her."
00:07:45.500 | And he goes, "What?"
00:07:46.340 | And I go, "My middle name is Elwood."
00:07:48.080 | - You're a bold man.
00:07:49.220 | - Yeah, but I just had to tell him
00:07:50.620 | because I was like, at some point,
00:07:53.820 | like either I'm gonna be honest with this man,
00:07:56.500 | and I'm gonna set this thing in motion in an honest way,
00:07:59.300 | or I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna give him
00:08:00.860 | like number two greatest fear or number three.
00:08:02.860 | And I was like, "No, I'm just gonna go for it."
00:08:04.380 | And then he ended up telling me something
00:08:05.700 | that changed my life, and he felt like my awareness
00:08:09.100 | that I could do that would be the reason I wouldn't.
00:08:11.820 | - Yes, that's big time.
00:08:13.840 | I know a lot of Christians or people,
00:08:15.980 | they think like they'll grow into this spot
00:08:17.980 | where they're almost like invincible,
00:08:19.260 | and they can like do anything, be around anything,
00:08:21.780 | and it won't affect them.
00:08:22.800 | But you are saying the way you battle it
00:08:24.780 | is every day realizing your weaknesses
00:08:27.100 | and realizing they're not going anywhere.
00:08:28.660 | Like even as you grow in faith,
00:08:30.980 | and every single day we strive to be better,
00:08:33.060 | like those temptations, they're not going anywhere.
00:08:35.140 | So you, to this day, don't travel alone,
00:08:38.340 | don't hang with girls one-on-one, like that's--
00:08:41.460 | - I don't trust myself, for me it's a fact.
00:08:43.820 | - And that's you being a pastor,
00:08:45.300 | and I think that's just so like big time
00:08:47.740 | because I know, like I talk to people a lot,
00:08:49.820 | and they're just, you know, they say like as you grow,
00:08:52.060 | and you can start doing certain things
00:08:53.580 | that you might not be able to used to do.
00:08:55.620 | And that might be true in some sense,
00:08:56.900 | but overall, like our temptations are,
00:08:59.860 | they're not going anywhere,
00:09:00.820 | no matter how close with God you get.
00:09:02.820 | So I think that's dope.
00:09:05.380 | - Thanks, man.
00:09:06.580 | - Man, I got an interesting topic for you.
00:09:09.060 | I wanna talk about that Instagram page,
00:09:13.300 | Preachers With Sneakers,
00:09:14.580 | it talks about, you know, you're on there,
00:09:17.380 | I know another pastor on there,
00:09:18.580 | some other big time pastors,
00:09:19.820 | but they always are posting your guys' clothes,
00:09:23.060 | or your shoes, and they're putting like the price tag,
00:09:25.300 | and like, and they're,
00:09:27.580 | I don't know what they're trying to do,
00:09:28.620 | condemn it, or whatever they do.
00:09:29.780 | I wanna get your perspective on that,
00:09:31.300 | and like, see, to me, it's like,
00:09:34.980 | if you like clothes, wear cool clothes.
00:09:36.820 | If you like shoes, wear cool shoes.
00:09:38.500 | But this page, and then like a lot of the comments
00:09:41.620 | are like condemning towards pastors
00:09:43.340 | that wear nice things, or have nice things.
00:09:46.060 | What is your kind of take on that?
00:09:47.780 | - Well, it's wild that you bring that up,
00:09:49.460 | because I actually just did a podcast
00:09:51.300 | with the creator of Preachers With Sneakers.
00:09:53.060 | - Did you?
00:09:54.580 | - He's actually become a friend,
00:09:55.980 | only because I felt like, all right,
00:09:58.100 | somebody's having a go here at my friends,
00:10:02.380 | and more kind of the role in culture
00:10:07.020 | that pastors hold, and they're having a go at it.
00:10:09.060 | So I was like, okay, I wonder,
00:10:11.140 | I was taught like when somebody really comes in
00:10:13.460 | hot and heavy with criticism,
00:10:15.260 | to stop at least for a moment and go,
00:10:17.300 | is there any truth to this?
00:10:18.660 | Oh, and by the way, if I react to this,
00:10:21.020 | and I don't like it, is that 'cause it's kinda true?
00:10:24.420 | So I just started to ask the question like,
00:10:26.060 | well, what would be some truth here in this approach?
00:10:30.700 | I don't prefer putting people on blast.
00:10:34.380 | You don't know how people got those Gucci shoes,
00:10:37.820 | or got that, not that it necessarily matters,
00:10:40.820 | but assuming that preachers everywhere
00:10:43.880 | are spending the amounts of money
00:10:45.380 | that he's posting on that particular piece,
00:10:47.780 | is obviously a gross assumption, right?
00:10:49.780 | 'Cause who knows if their so-and-so grandmother
00:10:54.300 | is one of the part owners of Gucci,
00:10:56.260 | and this person-- - Who knows?
00:10:57.900 | - For free, right?
00:10:58.740 | You just don't even know.
00:10:59.660 | And by the way, if you have a few dollars,
00:11:02.420 | I'm not even saying a lot,
00:11:03.580 | and you choose to spend money on eating out all the time,
00:11:07.360 | or somebody else chooses it on a shirt they like,
00:11:10.260 | well, hey, that's tough to start making calls on that,
00:11:13.420 | which is wrong and which is right.
00:11:15.500 | I think money is neither good nor bad.
00:11:17.060 | It's what you do with it, right?
00:11:18.900 | So, but I do think the truth that I really took to heart
00:11:22.460 | was, hey, is my clothes a stumbling block
00:11:27.460 | to people hearing what's way more important,
00:11:30.500 | and that's about the love of Jesus and the love of God.
00:11:33.340 | And so, I actually kind of put my arms around the whole thing
00:11:36.380 | and said, I hear you.
00:11:38.300 | Like, I hear you, and you know what?
00:11:39.740 | I think we need to sober up a little bit
00:11:41.360 | as preachers and pastors,
00:11:42.460 | and I think this might have gotten a little out of control.
00:11:45.300 | And so, I have made some adjustments.
00:11:47.740 | To be completely candid, preachers and sneakers,
00:11:50.320 | the approach is not necessarily what I prefer.
00:11:53.140 | Preachers and sneakers, and the young man who started it
00:11:55.620 | has become someone that I would consider friendly, you know?
00:12:00.180 | But yeah, I would never do that to my friends.
00:12:05.180 | I would never put my friends on blast
00:12:06.960 | and post what they spend on their clothes.
00:12:08.820 | That's not my approach, but I do think that as a preacher
00:12:12.500 | who stands on a stage and enjoys clothes,
00:12:16.240 | fashion is always, I was raised by a strong mother
00:12:18.540 | and older sister, and they're like,
00:12:20.020 | you're coming to the malls of America,
00:12:21.940 | and we're gonna teach you our ways.
00:12:23.780 | So, it's a passion of mine,
00:12:26.100 | but I found other ways to express that passion,
00:12:28.300 | and Amazon Essentials is my new favorite brand.
00:12:31.980 | I wear a lot of Amazon Essentials, so.
00:12:33.900 | - That's pretty amazing, like, if I were you,
00:12:36.580 | I would have heard that and been like, man, what?
00:12:38.960 | Like, if I want to spend my money on shoes, I'm gonna do it.
00:12:40.940 | But you kind of took it, and your conclusion was like,
00:12:43.640 | I'm gonna try to at least change it a little bit.
00:12:46.260 | I'm kind of surprised by that, actually.
00:12:48.340 | - Well, I just, I really mean it, you know?
00:12:52.260 | And I saw your interview with Lecrae, for sure,
00:12:55.380 | and I just love that man so much and respect him so much.
00:12:58.120 | I think, I listen to Lecrae, and I feel a similar pain
00:13:01.920 | that I share with him, not in any means am I saying
00:13:04.140 | that I'm this incredible, well-known artist like Lecrae is.
00:13:07.300 | He's incredible, but I think there's that pain of like,
00:13:10.600 | man, I think people don't realize, like,
00:13:12.500 | I chose this 'cause I love people a lot.
00:13:15.460 | Like, I know Lecrae loved music and hip-hop,
00:13:18.000 | but he loved people, and so I love standing on a stage,
00:13:21.740 | telling people about Jesus, and then their eyes lighting up,
00:13:24.300 | or even like, you and Ciara have been in services,
00:13:27.340 | and I can see you laughing, you know,
00:13:28.900 | when I'm telling a joke, like, it means the world to me.
00:13:31.160 | So, if somebody comes to me, even abruptly,
00:13:35.060 | and is abrasive, and says, your clothes are a distraction
00:13:39.260 | to helping people, man, I gotta at least step back and go,
00:13:43.180 | is there any truth to that?
00:13:44.640 | 'Cause if there is, how easy for me to change my shirt?
00:13:48.120 | Like, how easy is that?
00:13:49.220 | That's nothing, man.
00:13:50.820 | Now, start, you know, quoting and judging people
00:13:54.100 | on the amount of money they make and all of that.
00:13:56.340 | That's a real, real slippery slope.
00:13:58.140 | You know, what's the amount of money
00:14:00.700 | you don't judge people and criticize people?
00:14:03.140 | Well, that's silly, right?
00:14:05.380 | So, I think it is a slippery slope
00:14:07.420 | when we start taking shots at each other
00:14:08.900 | for the amount of money we have.
00:14:11.140 | - What about him?
00:14:11.980 | Did he, how did he react to it?
00:14:14.180 | Did he kind of see how his actions were hurting people,
00:14:16.960 | and like, you guys were seeing that?
00:14:18.680 | And did he kind of come to any--
00:14:20.160 | - Yeah, I'll give him a lot of credit.
00:14:21.400 | I'll say this, in the recording we did,
00:14:23.960 | which I think is promoting a resource
00:14:26.620 | or a book that he's putting out.
00:14:28.880 | He was cool, man.
00:14:29.820 | He said, you know, I really regret some stuff I did early on.
00:14:32.080 | And between me and you, I was like, what did you do?
00:14:35.120 | I don't even know, man.
00:14:36.360 | I just like, I'm not on social media that much,
00:14:39.180 | so I'm like, wait, what did you do?
00:14:41.240 | And actually, he told me a few things,
00:14:42.680 | and I was like, oh, yeah, bro, that's not good.
00:14:45.640 | Like, some of those are my friends, man.
00:14:48.200 | Like, that's my family.
00:14:49.320 | Like, and he's like, yeah, dude, I'm sorry.
00:14:51.400 | And I was like, oh, bro, thanks for saying that.
00:14:53.040 | So I, you know, he didn't have to do that,
00:14:54.660 | and he didn't have to say that.
00:14:55.800 | And so, man, I'm down with anybody who's like,
00:15:00.200 | you screw up, you just own it.
00:15:01.760 | And you go, man, it's what I did.
00:15:02.920 | I'm, you know, I shouldn't have done that.
00:15:04.360 | And it's like, cool, no problem.
00:15:05.600 | Let's keep rolling.
00:15:07.280 | - That's good.
00:15:09.120 | 'Cause he's a Christian dude.
00:15:10.840 | I think I saw an article about it.
00:15:12.260 | So obviously, he wasn't trying to come off the way he was.
00:15:17.260 | He probably didn't even know you guys
00:15:18.600 | even paid attention to that stuff.
00:15:19.840 | But that's one thing, like, even me,
00:15:22.000 | people don't understand, like, as celebrities
00:15:24.600 | or whatever you wanna call it, like, we see stuff.
00:15:27.640 | When people are talking whatever, like, we see stuff.
00:15:29.960 | You know what I mean?
00:15:30.800 | And I think, like, one thing he was doing,
00:15:33.400 | like you just said, was judging.
00:15:35.240 | And I think, as Christians in general,
00:15:37.560 | one of the biggest turn-offs that Christians
00:15:40.080 | can put out in the world is how judgmental we can be
00:15:42.700 | and how, like, we think that we're better than people
00:15:45.400 | or we think that because we're a Christian,
00:15:47.700 | like, other people shouldn't do stuff.
00:15:49.420 | Or we just, we put judgment out in the world.
00:15:51.580 | And I think, like, that is one of the worst things
00:15:55.460 | we can do as Christians if you wanna bring
00:15:57.980 | more people into the family.
00:15:59.180 | You know what I mean? - Yep, yep.
00:16:00.340 | - Do you agree?
00:16:01.180 | - I totally agree.
00:16:02.020 | And I'm reminded of that story where Jesus goes to,
00:16:07.180 | I wanna say, Nicodemus, and for some reason,
00:16:11.040 | I am really messing up the name, and that's hilarious.
00:16:14.840 | This is real, ladies and gentlemen.
00:16:16.800 | I do read my Bible most days, so.
00:16:19.840 | But there's this scene, it's not Nicodemus,
00:16:23.280 | it's Zacchaeus, thank you, Zacchaeus.
00:16:26.240 | ♪ Zacchaeus was a wee little man ♪
00:16:28.020 | ♪ A wee little man was he ♪
00:16:30.880 | So, not Nicodemus, that's a great story as well.
00:16:32.920 | But he goes to Zacchaeus' house,
00:16:34.040 | and Zacchaeus was a godless man
00:16:37.320 | who stole money from the Jewish people.
00:16:39.640 | And he was hated by the Jewish people.
00:16:41.680 | And here's Jesus, the Jewish Messiah,
00:16:43.560 | and he goes to his home, and here's my point
00:16:45.880 | about judgment and putting people in categories
00:16:48.840 | and assuming upon people based on a curse word,
00:16:51.800 | based on a cigarette, based on a rated-R movie
00:16:54.640 | that they don't know God for these arbitrary,
00:16:57.520 | natural, fleshly things, is really unheard of
00:17:00.940 | in the lifestyle and trajectory and ministry of Jesus.
00:17:03.180 | For instance, Zacchaeus, he goes to Zacchaeus' house,
00:17:06.400 | and we're actually not even told the details, Mike,
00:17:09.000 | we're not told the details, except that we know
00:17:10.720 | at the end, basically, of the scene that we're told,
00:17:13.440 | that we're privy to, Jesus goes,
00:17:14.840 | "Salvation has come to this house today."
00:17:18.080 | And the only thing we have on record,
00:17:19.720 | Nicodemus shifting or changing, is he said,
00:17:22.560 | "I'm gonna give back double all that I've stolen,"
00:17:26.040 | which is an outrageous claim, and my point is,
00:17:28.840 | Nicodemus saw something in Jesus at that dinner
00:17:32.240 | that so transformed him, but what he didn't see, Mike,
00:17:35.580 | was tradition, customs, rules, the Ten Commandments,
00:17:39.580 | that's not what changed Zacchaeus,
00:17:41.620 | who was basically a thief, he was a crook,
00:17:43.980 | he was a very, he would, you know,
00:17:46.800 | he'd be one of the big Ponzi scheme guys today
00:17:49.420 | that would go to jail for a long time.
00:17:51.060 | Jesus went to dinner with him, he loved him,
00:17:53.780 | by the way, to go to dinner with somebody in those days
00:17:55.820 | was one of the most intimate things you could do.
00:17:57.660 | It's like posting on Instagram, "This is my guy,"
00:18:00.620 | you know what I mean, it was like a co-sign.
00:18:02.600 | Jesus didn't care, he went to his house, he loved him,
00:18:05.800 | and Zacchaeus experienced transformation
00:18:08.440 | not by the change of his outward decorum or demeanor,
00:18:13.440 | but by a transformation of his heart
00:18:17.360 | that only Jesus can do.
00:18:18.800 | So I take incredible issue,
00:18:20.680 | I think Christianity has colluded with the culture
00:18:22.760 | to the point that we now have categories
00:18:24.960 | that Jesus never gave.
00:18:26.400 | We have that guy's hot for Jesus, that guy's lukewarm,
00:18:30.040 | that guy's not, like, we come up with,
00:18:31.880 | that's not in the Bible, that's not,
00:18:33.640 | those categories were not given by Jesus.
00:18:36.800 | And I get very concerned when it comes from Christians
00:18:41.280 | when we start going, "Well, you know,
00:18:42.560 | "they're not a believer."
00:18:43.960 | And the irony is I've been in settings now,
00:18:46.440 | and I know you have too,
00:18:47.720 | where people make judgment calls on public figures,
00:18:50.120 | they just don't know they're our friends.
00:18:51.920 | You ever been in one of those settings?
00:18:53.040 | "Well, I know so-and-so, they're not a believer."
00:18:54.620 | And you're like, "Actually, they are,
00:18:56.280 | "and that's my friend."
00:18:57.560 | So I've had preachers call out in their sermons,
00:19:01.320 | my friends, and belittle them,
00:19:03.120 | and I've had to call 'em on the phone and say,
00:19:04.880 | "Can I ask you a question?
00:19:06.260 | "Have you ever met them?"
00:19:07.920 | And the answer is always, "What, no."
00:19:10.160 | I go, "Well, actually, I have, and that's my friend."
00:19:12.840 | And so I think it's outrageous
00:19:15.760 | for you to make a judgment call to your congregation.
00:19:18.800 | But Mike, that's where we're at in some cases.
00:19:20.600 | We're calling public figures out,
00:19:21.960 | and we're treating them like cartoon characters
00:19:23.680 | and not real humans.
00:19:25.320 | - No doubt.
00:19:26.400 | - And the story you just brought up about Zacharias.
00:19:30.160 | - Nicodemus, I know, I got us all mixed up now.
00:19:32.840 | - Zacchaeus.
00:19:33.880 | - Oh, Zacchaeus, yeah, Nicodemus was the first guy.
00:19:36.500 | We are so confused.
00:19:38.200 | - But not, like, Jesus hung with the sinners.
00:19:41.280 | - That's right.
00:19:42.120 | - And like, he, you know, they were,
00:19:43.560 | he would go to dinner with them, he would be with them,
00:19:46.040 | and then because he was so unconditionally loving
00:19:49.080 | towards them, like, that's what changed their hearts
00:19:51.080 | a lot of the times.
00:19:52.920 | I think, like, people get it misconstrued today,
00:19:56.400 | and they think that you have to, like,
00:19:58.080 | earn Jesus' love or whatever.
00:20:01.200 | And, like, a verse comes to mind about,
00:20:04.000 | you know, this is something I'm kind of confused about,
00:20:07.200 | so I want to ask you.
00:20:08.040 | - Please.
00:20:08.860 | - It says, like, if you don't do the right things,
00:20:11.080 | then it shows that you're not in God,
00:20:12.820 | or it shows that, like, God is not in you
00:20:14.480 | if you're not doing the right things.
00:20:16.080 | But Jesus, when he was on Earth,
00:20:17.960 | he was hanging with people
00:20:18.800 | that weren't doing the right things.
00:20:20.600 | So, like, where do those two type of things
00:20:23.960 | kind of, like, come together?
00:20:26.200 | - To be honest, the distinction that is imperative
00:20:29.460 | to draw delineation between,
00:20:31.600 | you are referencing kind of,
00:20:33.340 | you're quoting what would be, like,
00:20:34.720 | a conglomeration of verses, which is like,
00:20:36.440 | hey, isn't there verses in the Bible
00:20:37.840 | that are, like, fruits of repentance, for instance?
00:20:40.480 | Like, you will show that you have changed your mind
00:20:43.120 | about God and the world, and Jesus is king,
00:20:45.600 | and you'll demonstrate that you believe that,
00:20:47.920 | and you've had a change of mind,
00:20:49.040 | because your actions decorum and demeanor will change,
00:20:51.560 | right, that's what you're saying.
00:20:52.400 | And the scripture does teach that.
00:20:53.920 | But then you're saying, well, how does that,
00:20:55.920 | how can we marry that to the trajectory of Jesus' ministry
00:20:59.200 | as he hangs out with people who,
00:21:00.520 | in some cases, never changed?
00:21:02.240 | - You put it way better than me, but yes.
00:21:03.560 | - But no, but this is a really important question,
00:21:05.600 | theologically, right?
00:21:06.640 | So, the distinction would be
00:21:09.020 | arbitrary timetables that we impose.
00:21:12.600 | And here's our problem.
00:21:13.920 | We think in,
00:21:17.440 | somebody said, evangelicals and Christians
00:21:19.360 | think in weekends, Catholics think in centuries.
00:21:22.840 | And we actually kind of need to meet
00:21:24.240 | somewhere in the middle,
00:21:25.320 | meaning we have arbitrary timetables.
00:21:27.160 | So, let's say that I'm your friend.
00:21:28.520 | Let's say you love Jesus and I don't, okay?
00:21:31.720 | Now, a lot of people in Christendom would say,
00:21:34.120 | yo, Mike, your buddy Judah, that's your best friend,
00:21:36.880 | and now I'm making us best friends, this is very convenient,
00:21:39.600 | but they would say to you, that's your best friend,
00:21:41.800 | your best friend didn't know Jesus,
00:21:43.200 | your best friend's doing this, this, this, this, and this.
00:21:45.440 | Mike, you need to tell your best friend,
00:21:47.120 | and maybe your response would be,
00:21:49.400 | which I hope it would be, is like,
00:21:51.240 | I think my friend understands who I am,
00:21:53.040 | what, how I live, what I'm about,
00:21:54.640 | and I'm just gonna love him.
00:21:55.760 | And I know when the time is right,
00:21:57.280 | God is going to persuade him.
00:21:59.240 | By the way, my favorite definition of faith
00:22:01.000 | is divine persuasion.
00:22:02.360 | So, the Bible makes it very clear.
00:22:04.360 | You can't save me, you can't convince me,
00:22:06.600 | but you can love me, and you can serve me,
00:22:09.200 | and over a process of time.
00:22:10.720 | But here's the reality.
00:22:11.640 | What those well-meaning Christian friends mean is,
00:22:14.820 | your best friend needs to get saved fast,
00:22:17.160 | or something's wrong with you.
00:22:19.320 | And I think those arbitrary timetables
00:22:21.720 | are causing us to try to force people to become Christian,
00:22:25.240 | we're trying to force people to understand Jesus,
00:22:27.840 | and that is not at all how it works.
00:22:29.560 | And here's what I would say.
00:22:30.920 | If I was trying to peddle a man-made religion,
00:22:34.300 | I would have to coerce, force, manipulate, right,
00:22:38.040 | all of this.
00:22:39.240 | But either, is God God, or is he not?
00:22:41.440 | If he is, then let God be God.
00:22:43.960 | And that's what I say about,
00:22:45.000 | I have so many friends still that don't know Jesus.
00:22:47.360 | And people, that bothers people.
00:22:48.840 | It bothers people that I'm a pastor and a preacher,
00:22:51.160 | and I have very close friends
00:22:52.960 | that still don't believe what I believe.
00:22:54.560 | - Right. - Right?
00:22:55.400 | I see, we've seen thousands of people saved in our church
00:22:57.960 | this past year, even during COVID,
00:22:59.640 | and yet I've still got friends who haven't.
00:23:01.640 | But, but what an honor to, I'm playing the long game.
00:23:05.380 | So like, I got friends right now who are 38, 32, 37,
00:23:08.520 | don't know Jesus, and I'm like,
00:23:10.360 | they may not know Jesus 'til they're 82.
00:23:12.800 | But guess what I'm gonna do?
00:23:13.880 | I'm not going anywhere.
00:23:15.340 | I'm gonna love 'em, we're gonna share meals together,
00:23:17.880 | and they're just gonna keep watching me,
00:23:20.320 | love my wife, love my kids, love Jesus.
00:23:22.720 | And then, I just keep telling God,
00:23:25.240 | that's your son, that's your daughter.
00:23:27.880 | So, you're gonna have to show yourself to them.
00:23:30.360 | I'll answer questions, I'll be there,
00:23:33.240 | but I'm not gonna convince 'em,
00:23:34.520 | 'cause I didn't convince myself,
00:23:35.880 | so I can't convince them, so that's up to you.
00:23:38.160 | - It's all God, and that's what I--
00:23:40.040 | - That's it.
00:23:40.880 | - I had to come to that conclusion,
00:23:42.400 | I would try so hard to, just myself even,
00:23:45.120 | will myself to be better, and like you said,
00:23:47.800 | outwardly do certain things, and it got to the point
00:23:50.440 | where I had to literally step all the way back
00:23:55.440 | and realize, the people that were just on the outside
00:23:58.940 | doing all the righteous things,
00:24:00.920 | and trying to follow the rules,
00:24:02.200 | those are the same people that killed Jesus,
00:24:04.000 | and were yelling, "Crucify him."
00:24:05.320 | And then I came to the realization,
00:24:07.920 | he was hanging with sinners.
00:24:09.880 | But a lot of times, they came all the way back around,
00:24:13.500 | and I just, like, "Why?"
00:24:15.280 | And I got to the same point you got to,
00:24:16.840 | God changes us, like we don't do that.
00:24:19.880 | We can't just will ourselves,
00:24:21.360 | we might have a couple good days,
00:24:22.940 | a few good days, a week of doing good,
00:24:24.880 | but then we're gonna mess up again,
00:24:26.240 | and then if you're living in that space of,
00:24:29.440 | you know, I have to do this, this, this,
00:24:30.960 | you're always gonna be guilty.
00:24:32.040 | And then what's the point of being a Christian,
00:24:33.460 | you know what I mean?
00:24:34.320 | But when God changes you, you're continuously
00:24:36.440 | looking at him to, like, change your heart,
00:24:39.440 | mold your heart, it takes so much of the pressure off,
00:24:41.840 | and that's the real joy of being a Christian.
00:24:43.520 | And I had to get to that point,
00:24:45.000 | so I totally understand what you're saying.
00:24:47.280 | With our friends, like-- - So good.
00:24:49.040 | - We can't will them to become Christians,
00:24:51.360 | but we can love 'em unconditionally,
00:24:53.360 | at least as good as we can, so.
00:24:55.560 | - You know what's crazy, Mike?
00:24:56.680 | I was reading in John 13, it's verses 34 and 35,
00:24:59.400 | yesterday or the day before,
00:25:01.440 | and it says, Jesus says, "I give you a new commandment."
00:25:04.880 | And I was like, "Oh, cool, new, right?"
00:25:06.320 | It's a new, this is novel, this is exciting,
00:25:08.400 | who doesn't like new stuff?
00:25:09.520 | "A new commandment," and it says,
00:25:11.300 | "Love one another," love one another.
00:25:14.560 | Now, first of all, I'm like,
00:25:15.480 | loving one another's not new, Jesus.
00:25:17.120 | Why do you call it a new commandment?
00:25:18.320 | And here's what I discovered, here's the new part.
00:25:20.280 | "Comma, love one another the way I have loved you."
00:25:25.040 | And here's such a gross misunderstanding about Christianity.
00:25:29.920 | The essence of the Christian journey is impossible,
00:25:34.080 | but we won't admit that.
00:25:35.680 | We think in our own effort, in our own strength.
00:25:38.560 | Do you know what Jesus requires to follow him?
00:25:40.880 | Total and complete surrender,
00:25:43.240 | which is to say, here's how you surrender verbally,
00:25:45.880 | "I can't, God, I can't do this.
00:25:48.960 | "I'm empty, I'm broken, I'm weak, and I can barely,
00:25:53.560 | "I'm struggling to accept myself, to love myself,
00:25:58.440 | "let alone love my neighbor."
00:25:59.800 | That's why the Bible says, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
00:26:02.620 | We can't even love ourselves without the help of Jesus.
00:26:06.680 | Bro, I've had so many sleepless nights where I've wondered,
00:26:09.880 | am I ever going to fix this temptation, these challenges,
00:26:13.320 | these weaknesses, these proclivities?
00:26:15.320 | Am I a hypocrite?
00:26:16.820 | Am I really a man of God?
00:26:18.240 | Can I really pull this off?
00:26:19.400 | Can I be a dad?
00:26:20.360 | Can I hold a real marriage together?
00:26:23.120 | Like, am I gonna do this?
00:26:24.320 | And every day it brings me to this point,
00:26:26.360 | which is so powerful.
00:26:27.840 | "God, I can't do this."
00:26:30.080 | That's why Jesus said, "I want you to love each other."
00:26:32.340 | This is how you'll know you're Christians.
00:26:33.800 | You'll love each other the way I love you.
00:26:35.600 | I took issue with God the other day 'cause I said,
00:26:37.360 | "Jesus, that is impossible for me to love people
00:26:39.680 | "like you love me."
00:26:40.880 | But that's the point, right?
00:26:42.560 | That we come to Jesus and go,
00:26:44.200 | "This life of following you and loving people is impossible."
00:26:47.680 | And Jesus is gonna say, "That's right,
00:26:50.140 | "but I'm gonna do in you what is impossible,
00:26:53.960 | "and I will teach you to love people."
00:26:55.800 | And dude, if that isn't compelling,
00:26:58.560 | we are living a supernatural, abnormal life
00:27:01.540 | because of Jesus.
00:27:02.940 | It's awesome, man.
00:27:04.780 | - Man, that is powerful, bro.
00:27:06.380 | - It's the best life.
00:27:07.380 | - That is.
00:27:08.200 | Amen, that is.
00:27:10.240 | That is powerful.
00:27:12.780 | I had some other questions that were less deep, but--
00:27:15.420 | - Bring it on, let's do it, whatever you want.
00:27:17.380 | - That's so good, man.
00:27:19.180 | My next question is for the young fellas.
00:27:22.340 | Like, I've seen you and your wife interact,
00:27:24.160 | and you guys are so, so dope together
00:27:26.380 | in the way you just-- - Thank you.
00:27:27.620 | - Support each other and everything.
00:27:29.700 | What would you tell to the young dudes
00:27:32.340 | and what to look for in a girl and eventually a wife?
00:27:35.000 | Like, what's the main things you wanna look for?
00:27:37.020 | And talk to me, too, 'cause I'm looking, too.
00:27:39.940 | - Yeah, we're gonna turn Curious Mike into Seeking Mike.
00:27:44.260 | Here we go.
00:27:45.260 | Like, who says that?
00:27:46.860 | Who says that?
00:27:48.340 | Seeking Mike.
00:27:49.780 | We're gonna turn Curious Mike into--
00:27:52.740 | - Seeking Mike. - Searching Mike.
00:27:55.900 | Well, I think, first of all, quite literally,
00:27:59.700 | the first approach has to be, hey, would I marry me?
00:28:03.980 | As silly as that sounds,
00:28:05.340 | I think that's where this whole conversation starts.
00:28:07.500 | Hey, if I'm honest, would I marry me?
00:28:10.260 | Like, am I a good, like, for instance, right?
00:28:15.260 | Let's talk to Curious Mike for a second.
00:28:17.460 | Okay, you want a woman who listens,
00:28:20.220 | who is empathetic, caring, strong, knows who she is.
00:28:26.220 | Keeps herself looking beautiful, right?
00:28:30.380 | The best version of herself.
00:28:31.680 | I mean, you always look sharp, put together,
00:28:33.860 | you like fashion, style, like all these things you want,
00:28:36.060 | right?
00:28:37.020 | Here's what's funny, is you project that with your own life.
00:28:41.300 | So, a lot of people fail to recognize
00:28:43.380 | that there is some magnetism involved that's just natural,
00:28:46.380 | and that is, if that's what you want,
00:28:48.340 | if you project empathy, being a good listener,
00:28:52.460 | being selfless, when you see your friends,
00:28:55.140 | how you doing, man, are you good?
00:28:56.820 | Bro, tell me what's going on in your life.
00:28:59.020 | I wanna know right now.
00:29:00.460 | Well, guess what?
00:29:01.620 | You're gonna be attract, what's gonna attract to you
00:29:05.340 | is women who are like, who like to roll that way.
00:29:09.780 | And they're gonna be attracted to you,
00:29:11.020 | and you're gonna be attracted to them.
00:29:12.260 | So, I think the misappropriation
00:29:14.420 | that is probably really underrated
00:29:17.780 | is that you got single adults rolling around,
00:29:20.660 | going, man, I can't, fine, I'm so,
00:29:23.900 | man, I went on this date, I was so angry at this girl,
00:29:25.900 | she was so annoying, and I'm like,
00:29:27.460 | well, I bet as you got angry,
00:29:29.700 | it certainly didn't put her at ease,
00:29:32.540 | and make her be her best at dinner.
00:29:34.540 | You know what I'm saying?
00:29:35.380 | So, if she feels your tension, now she feels guarded,
00:29:38.300 | I bet it was a bad date.
00:29:39.980 | You know what I mean?
00:29:40.820 | As opposed to, I'm gonna give this date a chance.
00:29:43.180 | I'm gonna open up a little bit.
00:29:44.740 | I'm gonna ask questions about her.
00:29:46.540 | I'm gonna, and I would just urge men and women everywhere
00:29:51.060 | who are in pursuit of a life partner,
00:29:53.100 | like, man, allow yourself to begin to develop,
00:29:56.180 | you know, a lot of people are like,
00:29:57.020 | well, how do I become a better listener?
00:29:59.020 | Start practicing at least once a day,
00:30:01.240 | having a conversation where you talk
00:30:04.380 | way less than the other person, literally.
00:30:06.980 | So, Chelsea and I have a little contest when we travel,
00:30:09.300 | and then I'm kinda outin' myself now,
00:30:10.980 | 'cause pastors love to talk.
00:30:12.220 | Is this podcast not proof of that, right?
00:30:14.260 | Preachers like to talk.
00:30:15.520 | But we would go to dinner with the host preacher
00:30:17.740 | or the conference we were at,
00:30:18.900 | and we would always make sure that in the dinner,
00:30:22.540 | we would get that, the other couple,
00:30:24.540 | to talk more about themselves.
00:30:26.280 | In fact, twice as much as we would,
00:30:28.000 | 'cause we felt like that would ensure
00:30:29.700 | that that couple would feel encouraged
00:30:31.700 | and heard and valued and loved.
00:30:34.260 | And so, that's been a game.
00:30:35.580 | It's more than a game.
00:30:36.420 | It's a lifestyle now for me.
00:30:37.920 | But playing the game taught me a way of living.
00:30:41.220 | And I practice unselfish concern.
00:30:43.500 | Unselfish concern is, I'm concerned about you
00:30:46.060 | because I love you, and that's it.
00:30:48.080 | Selfish concern is, yo, Mike, how you doin'?
00:30:50.940 | Yo, you got any Puma gear?
00:30:52.420 | You know, like, whatever, you know.
00:30:53.460 | But unselfish concern is, I just love you for you.
00:30:57.740 | You know, you're enough.
00:30:58.740 | - And that's, in and of itself,
00:31:00.540 | is a supernatural type of thing.
00:31:01.780 | You don't just, you can't just do that.
00:31:03.460 | - You can't just do that.
00:31:04.300 | - That's from God.
00:31:05.140 | - That's you're like, God, you gotta help me.
00:31:06.220 | - 'Cause you can't just become--
00:31:08.020 | - We're naturally selfish, right?
00:31:09.400 | - For sure. - Born selfish.
00:31:10.700 | - Well, talk to me,
00:31:11.540 | because you're friends with a lot of celebrities.
00:31:13.860 | You know, you helped Justin along the way a lot.
00:31:16.820 | What about a dude like me, where I'm in the NBA,
00:31:21.420 | there's plenty of, you know, girls around.
00:31:23.300 | - Killin' it in the NBA.
00:31:24.460 | - How do you, in a situation like that,
00:31:27.300 | filter through and find a girl
00:31:28.980 | when they all could just be, you know.
00:31:31.220 | 'Cause, like, I know a lot of my,
00:31:32.900 | even my teammates or whoever watches this,
00:31:34.940 | a lot of us don't even know girls' intentions.
00:31:37.820 | We can't decipher, 'cause they could put up a front.
00:31:40.300 | They could be their best selves for a date,
00:31:42.380 | but they could be their best selves
00:31:44.420 | all the way 'til you get married,
00:31:45.540 | but you don't really know what you're marrying
00:31:46.860 | until you marry 'em.
00:31:47.700 | How do you decipher that?
00:31:49.140 | Like, how do you help Justin?
00:31:50.840 | How do you help guys like me?
00:31:53.140 | - I definitely think, it's so funny.
00:31:55.540 | People hear the word prayer,
00:31:56.980 | and they're, like, intimidated.
00:31:58.100 | Walls go up.
00:31:58.940 | Oh, but here we go again.
00:31:59.780 | So cliche, but what I actually mean is
00:32:03.140 | that you would take your concerns to God
00:32:04.900 | and say 'em out loud and listen to yourself.
00:32:06.620 | Say them out loud.
00:32:07.580 | God, I'm afraid that I am going to get involved
00:32:11.060 | with a woman who only wants me
00:32:13.260 | because of what I do or money I have.
00:32:16.180 | That's a start, number one, is express to God.
00:32:20.340 | My favorite thing to do to ask a dating couple
00:32:23.180 | or a soon-to-be-married couple is,
00:32:25.580 | okay, greatest fears about the relationship go,
00:32:27.780 | you gotta be honest, and to hear someone,
00:32:30.060 | which is so cool about you.
00:32:31.680 | I think you're a very transparent person.
00:32:34.580 | That's a commitment you've made.
00:32:35.740 | You've wanted to be honest and real,
00:32:37.740 | which, since the moment we met,
00:32:39.860 | you've been an open book, which I love that about you.
00:32:42.300 | I think it's an incredibly endearing quality.
00:32:44.140 | It's a Jesus-like quality.
00:32:45.820 | So that's obviously what you desire,
00:32:48.420 | but I'll say this.
00:32:49.240 | You gotta be honest with God,
00:32:50.340 | and then, I wish more guys did this,
00:32:55.340 | and I say guys only 'cause I am a guy
00:32:57.900 | and we're picking on guys,
00:32:58.900 | but I could suggest things to women,
00:33:01.500 | but I've never been a woman, and neither have you,
00:33:03.180 | and so sometimes I feel a little bit out of depth,
00:33:05.700 | so I'll say this to guys.
00:33:07.260 | I am still at a loss why men
00:33:09.900 | don't communicate expectations early on
00:33:14.220 | in any potential relationship.
00:33:16.820 | I want you to know, like, if I were you,
00:33:19.880 | I would be like, I'm gonna put out there
00:33:23.320 | my expectations and intentions in a woman,
00:33:27.480 | and not to make her require any person to,
00:33:32.480 | but simply to say, hey, if you and I are gonna work,
00:33:35.440 | like, here's the kind of person I wanna be.
00:33:38.160 | Here's what I value, and here's what I'm about,
00:33:40.400 | and then I'll say, secondly, if I were you,
00:33:43.800 | when I would go on these dates,
00:33:45.760 | I would put something very vulnerable on the table,
00:33:48.620 | and I would see if that vulnerability was met,
00:33:51.300 | because if that vulnerability is met,
00:33:53.580 | at least you perceive to the best of your ability
00:33:55.980 | that vulnerability is met.
00:33:57.820 | You might have just stumbled on a very special person,
00:34:00.780 | because typically, when somebody shares vulnerability,
00:34:04.380 | the most you'll get from someone
00:34:06.420 | who's not comfortable with that is like,
00:34:09.580 | wow, that's really vulnerable,
00:34:11.220 | and maybe a giggle, we barely know each other,
00:34:15.220 | and it's like, okay, this person has some walls up,
00:34:17.920 | which, by the way, is very natural.
00:34:19.240 | I'm not saying that's a wrong thing.
00:34:21.260 | I just know you enough to know
00:34:22.660 | the kind of woman you're after,
00:34:24.100 | and I know you want a woman who's very honest and open,
00:34:27.820 | so that you guys can connect at a deep level.
00:34:30.380 | - Thanks, bro.
00:34:31.220 | - I mean, that's like my, that's my best Dr. Phil,
00:34:33.740 | you know, so. (laughs)
00:34:36.060 | - That's a good Dr. Phil.
00:34:37.060 | My last question for you, and then we'll wrap it up.
00:34:40.000 | If you had the whole world in an audience,
00:34:43.060 | and you had to preach a sermon to the entire world,
00:34:45.140 | and everyone's tuned in, like, listening just to you,
00:34:48.380 | what would you preach about?
00:34:49.780 | - Well, I think any preacher out there
00:34:57.860 | who hasn't thought this through to an extent
00:35:01.660 | probably just hasn't been preaching very long.
00:35:03.960 | Like, as a basketball player,
00:35:08.500 | do you ever think about what your last shot will be?
00:35:11.420 | Like, you know, I just watched Michael's last Chicago shot.
00:35:15.340 | You know, he crosses over,
00:35:16.660 | the guy from Utah, I used to know his name,
00:35:18.500 | hits that shot, and Bob Costas or somebody says,
00:35:22.020 | and maybe that's the last shot we see,
00:35:24.180 | the great Michael Jordan, you know.
00:35:26.020 | What's your last shot?
00:35:27.420 | And so, for me, it's a last sermon.
00:35:29.060 | What's my last sermon?
00:35:30.260 | And I think it's, there's only one,
00:35:35.260 | and it's, I'll say this.
00:35:40.220 | In Acts 17, Paul goes to this,
00:35:42.820 | he goes to Thessalonica, then he goes to Berea,
00:35:45.980 | and then in Acts 17, he's kind of in a,
00:35:48.820 | he's in a holding pattern in Athens,
00:35:51.180 | and Athens isn't quite Corinth of the day,
00:35:53.300 | but Athens has a little bit of LA,
00:35:55.420 | Tokyo, Hong Kong, New York vibes, right?
00:35:59.100 | It's a pretty cultured city,
00:36:01.300 | a lot of tourism at the time in Athens
00:36:03.220 | when Paul would have been there in Acts 17,
00:36:05.860 | and it says he was compelled by all of the idol worship
00:36:09.300 | that he saw, and he went to some open square
00:36:12.340 | and he saw all these idols and their names,
00:36:13.900 | and there was just one idol, and it was unnamed,
00:36:17.660 | and it said, "To the unknown God,"
00:36:19.980 | and I mean, I could almost get emotional about it.
00:36:22.940 | Paul gets an audience because he was a genius
00:36:26.900 | and a brilliant, and he says,
00:36:29.300 | "I wanna tell you about that unknown God,"
00:36:31.460 | and I think the reason, the ultimate reason I preach
00:36:38.100 | is 'cause I still think the country I was born in
00:36:41.860 | and raised in still doesn't know Jesus,
00:36:46.860 | and there's an unknown God, and he's the true God,
00:36:52.060 | and what I mean is we know some of the customs,
00:36:56.420 | we know some of the traditions,
00:36:57.780 | we know some of the practices,
00:36:59.420 | we're familiar with the pageantry,
00:37:01.300 | we're familiar with singing songs,
00:37:04.420 | we're familiar with preachers preaching
00:37:07.020 | in certain tones and things, we're used to bands now,
00:37:11.100 | we're used to productions, lobby time,
00:37:16.100 | we're used to getting coffees at churches now,
00:37:18.140 | there's all these things we're used to,
00:37:19.540 | but I'm like, "But do we know him?
00:37:22.900 | "Who is he?"
00:37:23.940 | You know, I looked at John 13, and I'm like,
00:37:27.820 | "Love one another as I have loved you,"
00:37:30.460 | and so the operative question is what?
00:37:32.660 | Do you know how he loves you?
00:37:34.700 | Do you know how God loves you?
00:37:36.860 | Because if you knew how God loves you,
00:37:39.380 | you would be quite literally mesmerized.
00:37:43.220 | I mean, who's not after love?
00:37:45.740 | What big recording artist has ever hit it big
00:37:50.300 | without singing about love?
00:37:52.220 | Oh, that would be no one.
00:37:53.700 | Not a single recording artist in history
00:37:56.340 | has ever made it big, whatever that means,
00:37:58.620 | without singing about love, why?
00:38:00.900 | Because at the core of our being,
00:38:02.300 | we all want to be loved.
00:38:03.900 | Like, we just want to be loved.
00:38:05.540 | Do I matter?
00:38:06.940 | Am I seen?
00:38:08.460 | I was here.
00:38:09.420 | Do people know that?
00:38:11.220 | Do I have a purpose?
00:38:12.340 | Am I loved?
00:38:13.380 | And the message, Mike,
00:38:15.460 | you and I are trying to get out to the world is yes,
00:38:19.260 | and yes, and yes,
00:38:22.060 | and what we're saying is we can prove it, too,
00:38:25.860 | because there was one man, only one,
00:38:29.540 | who predicted his life, his death,
00:38:33.820 | his burial, and his resurrection,
00:38:36.420 | and we'll throw in the ascension,
00:38:38.220 | and he pulled it off.
00:38:40.020 | There's only one, and he has a name,
00:38:42.540 | and we're told where he was born
00:38:44.140 | and the city he was raised in,
00:38:45.420 | Jesus Christ of Nazareth,
00:38:47.740 | who physically walked this earth 2,000 years ago,
00:38:51.740 | and he's changed the world as we know it.
00:38:53.620 | I am in love with him.
00:38:55.260 | He has revealed the creator of heaven and earth to us,
00:39:00.020 | and I am overwhelmed and undone
00:39:02.980 | at his endless, unconditional love,
00:39:05.460 | yes, for me, yes, for my wife, yes, for my kids,
00:39:08.380 | but for my friends, for new friends,
00:39:11.380 | and ultimately for the world.
00:39:12.980 | I believe we're at a crossroads,
00:39:14.900 | in a crossroad of cultures in this country
00:39:18.500 | and around the world,
00:39:19.980 | and I believe that there has never been
00:39:21.500 | a more important time for entertainers,
00:39:25.260 | artists, preachers, writers, thinkers,
00:39:27.660 | singers, dancers, to tell the story of God,
00:39:31.540 | and it's a story that is so unknown,
00:39:34.860 | and we just gotta make it known
00:39:36.620 | that people are loved and they're cared for,
00:39:38.660 | and so I know that's what you're about.
00:39:40.820 | It is your fault for having me on here
00:39:42.620 | and asking that question,
00:39:43.540 | because this has turned into
00:39:44.580 | what I think is a 16-minute sermon,
00:39:46.700 | which is only a very short sermon,
00:39:48.700 | but thank you for asking that question,
00:39:50.940 | and it means the world,
00:39:53.500 | and thank you for having me on Curious Mike.
00:39:55.380 | - Like you said, bro, that's what it's about, man.
00:39:57.580 | - Yes, sir.
00:39:58.420 | - I haven't done this on any of the other ones,
00:40:00.100 | but you're so inspiring to me.
00:40:01.620 | I just wanna ask, do you think that we could just pray
00:40:03.900 | for whoever watches this sermon?
00:40:05.540 | - I would love that.
00:40:06.980 | - And end it that way?
00:40:07.940 | - We having a full-blown altar call right here.
00:40:10.180 | (laughing)
00:40:12.020 | - My God. - Let's do it, let's do it.
00:40:13.940 | God, I thank you so much for, first of all, this man.
00:40:16.860 | I thank you for Mike.
00:40:18.620 | Thank you for the opportunity to do this podcast,
00:40:21.300 | and more than anything, together, Mike and I just pray
00:40:24.220 | for each and every person watching this right now,
00:40:28.660 | and we ask that you would persuade.
00:40:31.860 | Persuade us of your love.
00:40:33.780 | Persuade us of your reality.
00:40:35.460 | Persuade us of your validity and your power
00:40:39.940 | and your protection and your providence
00:40:42.260 | and your peace and your joy.
00:40:45.020 | Jesus, help us to show the world who you are and what you do.
00:40:50.020 | I thank you so much for the opportunity to talk
00:40:53.820 | and be here with Mike, and we pray all this in Jesus' name.
00:40:57.060 | Amen. - Amen, thank you.
00:40:58.900 | - Thank you, man, love you.
00:41:00.420 | - Shout out to Lemon Perfect.
00:41:01.940 | We out.
00:41:02.780 | (laughing)
00:41:04.740 | This episode is sponsored by Lemon Perfect.
00:41:06.940 | (upbeat music)