(upbeat hip hop music) - Welcome to another episode of Curious Mike. I'm here with Judah Smith. I call him the GOAT. What's good with you, bro? - So good. I'm so excited to be doing this. We've been talking about it for a while. Your haircut looks absolutely sensational right now.

- Stop, bro. Man, my first question for you is, so like I tell you this all the time, you're one of the most humble and good human beings that I know. - Thank you for saying that. - But you're kind of a big deal. Like you're a pastor in this big church.

You know, you have a huge following, but it didn't always start out like that. Like it didn't, you know, I want to know if you always envisioned it being as big as it is now, or did it just kind of come naturally? - Yeah, I think of course the right answer is no, I didn't, but it's actually true.

Like I think I always had a sense that I wanted to make a big difference in people's lives, and I just enjoyed making people feel happy, feel like they could do what God put in them to do, and the dreams that are in them. And so one of our models in our family is we want to make people feel like they can fly.

And there's a lot of ways to do that. Thank you, that's nice. And I have to credit Michael Jordan, come fly with me. Like, Judah, that's not related, you know? But I watched that a hundred million times. But yeah, man, I just wanted to serve people and to be honest, I wanted to be a youth pastor for my whole life, that was the goal.

And then stuff happened with my dad and his health, and so I kind of got tricked into the lead pastor thing. But hanging out with young guys like you is still probably the funnest part of what I get to do. - My God, do you enjoy it? Like, is this what you wanted to be doing?

And like, do you enjoy it? Or does it get sometimes like, you just wish you could live a different life? Or is this like everything? - Yeah, I think probably like all of us, right? You have those moments where you're like, "Man, I kind of wish I did something else." But then you kind of wake up and go, "Actually, this is the best life ever." I will say that some of the collateral that comes with being a public pastor is when your kids get a little bit hurt, you know?

They're like, "Yo, Dad, so-and-so not like us anymore." Or, "I think there's some people that don't like you." And you're like, "Ah," and trying to explain some of the criticism and the critique. And I don't blame people for criticizing and critiquing. People care deeply about scripture. They care deeply about integrity and character and morality.

And these are things that I care about deeply as well. I think sometimes people think, "Well, if you dress a certain way "or if you have certain friends, "you can't actually hold some sort of standard "of God's word," you know? But actually, you can, and we're endeavoring to do that.

So I love this life. It comes with its challenges, but I chose it, man. - I actually was about to ask you this later about your kids. You brought up how they can ask you questions about what's going on with certain people. Why do they not like me anymore?

Do you ever worry about your kids being pastor's kids and the challenges that kind of come along with that? - Yeah, I do, man. And I think you know what it's like. Your parents were public figures as well. And you know what it's like when your parents are example Christians, like Christian examples.

There comes a pressure. You and all your brothers and sisters are like, "Well, we gotta be good, I guess, too." And so you know what that's like, and it is challenging. I think one of the reasons our kids are in the L.A. public school system is so that they would receive exposure.

I believe in education a lot. I just might believe in exposure more. It might be the greatest form of education. And I wanted them to be cultured. I wanted them to be challenged. I wanted them to really experience life. And I think as a result, the church bubble that's somewhat a part of my life, it isn't everything for the Smith family.

You know what I mean? - They're very like, yeah, I've been around them. They're like cool kids. (laughs) I remember me-- - Thank you for saying that. - Yeah, for me growing up, I was homeschooled all the way 'til eighth grade. And I remember going into school in eighth grade and literally, I didn't know what was going on.

These kids were talking about stuff I had never heard about. They were doing stuff I didn't even know was a thing for kids my age. And so that point that you bring up about exposure, I know every parent parents differently, but I could definitely see that being big, especially for pastor's kids, so they're not just little weirdos.

(laughs) - Well, whatever your parents did, I will go on record on Curious Mike right now and just say they have raised some of the most considerate, kind, socially skilled kids I've ever seen. And I mean that. I just love you, your siblings. Your parents are heroic to me.

And it's not easy to raise kids these days, man. - Thank you, brother. - But you're an incredible example, for sure. - Thank you, brother. So what about you and your own struggles, your own temptations, as you grew into the limelight, becoming the pastor that you are, the big time pastor that you are, what do you struggle with?

Or do you have those? To me, you seem like a superhero. You don't deal with much temptation. But I know everyone's human, so what do you deal with? - Yeah, I think the brokenness in all of us just has to be addressed, has to be identified, mitigated. I think there are things that I just won't do because I don't fully trust myself.

I love who I am, I enjoy that, but I don't fully trust myself. And I think kind of any person who's like, "I totally trust myself." I'm like, "Well, I don't know if I trust that." You know, 'cause you really gotta be honest with yourself. So I don't travel alone, I don't meet with women one-on-one, I don't call women one-on-one, text with, I just, for me, a commitment, I'm a one-woman kind of guy.

And I've just made that commitment. To say that there's no temptation there is silly, of course, but I made a commitment with my heart, my emotions, my eyes, my thoughts. And if you just take it a day at a time, it's a lot less overwhelming sometimes because we're so inundated.

And obviously, I pray for you almost every day. And when I do, I constantly think of the unique challenges and temptations that come with being a handsome professional athlete, I might add. People do not know this about Curious Mike, but he was rated the best-looking Denver Nugget on the team.

That's a fact, that's a fact. And I had to inform him, that's how humble this man is. He didn't even know that you won the fan vote, but I was proud. - You're crazy, man. - But there is unique temptations, isn't there, that come with leadership and people that know you.

And so it's like before the emotion of a beautiful woman, before you get into a wrong situation, it's like owning your proclivities and tendencies and weaknesses. And the way you do that, by the way, is you say it out loud to close friends who know you and walk with you.

Like, "Hey, this is what scares me." I'll never forget, I told my future father-in-law at the time, this is 22 years ago, he asked me before I got the permission to marry his daughter, he said, "What's your greatest fear?" And I was like, "Oh, man, shoot. "I don't know if I'm gonna tell him the truth." He goes, "Mine is suicide that I will commit." He goes, "My older brother committed suicide "and that's mine." And so when he did that, I was like, "I think that's honest, I better match that." And I said, "My greatest fear is that I would cheat "on your daughter if I had the honor to marry her." And he goes, "What?" And I go, "My middle name is Elwood." - You're a bold man.

- Yeah, but I just had to tell him because I was like, at some point, either I'm gonna be honest with this man and I'm gonna set this thing in motion in an honest way, or I'm gonna give him number two greatest fear or number three. And I was like, "Nah, I'm just gonna go for it." And then he ended up telling me something that changed my life.

And he felt like my awareness that I could do that would be the reason I wouldn't. - Yes, that's big time. I know a lot of Christians or people, they think they'll grow into this spot where they're almost invincible and they can do anything, be around anything, and it won't affect them.

But you are saying the way you battle it is every day realizing your weaknesses and realizing they're not going anywhere. Even as you grow in faith and every single day we strive to be better, those temptations, they're not going anywhere. So you, to this day, don't travel alone, don't hang with girls one-on-one.

- I don't trust myself. For me, it's a fact. - And that's you being a pastor. And I think that's just so big time because I know, I talk to people a lot and they say, as you grow and you can start doing certain things that you might not be able to used to do.

And that might be true in some sense, but overall, our temptations are, they're not going anywhere no matter how close with God you get. So I think that's dope. - Thanks, man. - Man, I got an interesting topic for you. I wanna talk about that Instagram page, Preachers With Sneakers.

It talks about, you're on there, I know another pastor on there, some other big time pastors, but they always are posting your guys' clothes or your shoes and they're putting the price tag and I don't know what they're trying to do, condemn it or whatever they do. I wanna get your perspective on that.

See, to me, it's like, if you like clothes, wear cool clothes. If you like shoes, wear cool shoes. But this page and then a lot of the comments are condemning towards pastors that wear nice things or have nice things. What is your take on that? - Well, it's wild that you bring that up because I actually just did a podcast with the creator of Preachers With Sneakers.

- Did you? - He's actually become a friend, only because I felt like, all right, somebody's having a go here at my friends and more kind of the role in culture that pastors hold and they're having a go at it. So I was like, okay, I wonder, I was taught when somebody really comes in hot and heavy with criticism, to stop at least for a moment and go, is there any truth to this?

Oh, and by the way, if I react to this and I don't like it, is that 'cause it's kinda true? So I just started to ask the question, well, what would be some truth here in this approach? I don't prefer putting people on blast. You don't know how people got those Gucci shoes or got that, not that it necessarily matters, but assuming that preachers everywhere are spending the amounts of money that he's posting on that particular piece is obviously a gross assumption, right?

'Cause who knows if their so-and-so grandmother is one of the part owners of Gucci and this person-- - Who knows? - For free, right? You just don't even know. And by the way, if you have a few dollars, I'm not even saying a lot, and you choose to spend money on eating out all the time or somebody else chooses it on a shirt they like, well, hey, that's tough to start making calls on that, which is wrong and which is right.

I think money is neither good nor bad. It's what you do with it, right? So, but I do think the truth that I really took to heart was, hey, is my clothes a stumbling block to people hearing what's way more important? And that's about the love of Jesus and the love of God.

And so, I actually kind of put my arms around the whole thing and said, I hear you. Like, I hear you, and you know what? I think we need to sober up a little bit as preachers and pastors. And I think this might have gotten a little out of control.

And so, I have made some adjustments to be completely candid, preachers and sneakers. The approach is not necessarily what I prefer, preachers and sneakers, and the young man who started it has become someone that I would consider friendly, you know? But yeah, I would never do that to my friends.

I would never put my friends on blast and post what they spend on their clothes. That's not my approach, but I do think that as a preacher who stands on a stage and enjoys clothes, fashion is always, I was raised by a strong mother and older sister, and they're like, you're coming to the malls of America, and we're gonna teach you our ways.

So, it's a passion of mine, but I found other ways to express that passion, and Amazon Essentials is my new favorite brand. I wear a lot of Amazon Essentials, so. - That's pretty amazing. Like, if I were you, I would have heard that and been like, man, what? Like, if I wanna spend my money on shoes, I'm gonna do it.

But you kind of took it, and your conclusion was like, I'm gonna try to at least change it a little bit. I'm kind of surprised by that, actually. - Well, I just, I really mean it, you know? And I saw your interview with Lecrae, for sure, and I just love that man so much and respect him so much.

I think, I listen to Lecrae, and I feel a similar pain that I share with him. Not in any means am I saying that I'm this incredible, well-known artist like Lecrae is. He's incredible, but I think there's that pain of like, man, I think people don't realize, like, I chose this 'cause I love people a lot.

Like, I know Lecrae loved music and hip-hop, but he loved people, and so I love standing on a stage, telling people about Jesus, and then their eyes lighting up. Or even like, you and Ciara have been in services, and I can see you laughing, you know, when I'm telling a joke.

Like, it means the world to me. So, if somebody comes to me, even abruptly and as abrasive, and says, your clothes are a distraction to helping people. Man, I gotta at least step back and go, is there any truth to that? 'Cause if there is, how easy for me to change my shirt?

Like, how easy is that? That's nothing, man. Now, start, you know, quoting and judging people on the amount of money they make and all of that. That's a real, real slippery slope. You know, when, what's the amount of money you don't judge people and criticize people? Well, that's silly, right?

So, I think it is a slippery slope when we start taking shots at each other for the amount of money we have. - What about him? Did he, how did he react to it? Did he kind of see how his actions were hurting people and like, you guys were seeing that?

And did he kind of come to any-- - Yeah, I'll give him a lot of credit. I'll say this, in the recording we did, which I think is promoting a resource or a book that he's putting out. He was cool, man. He said, you know, I really regret some stuff I did early on.

And between me and you, I was like, what did you do? I don't even know, man. I just like, I'm not on social media that much. So, I'm like, wait, what did you do? And actually, he told me a few things and I was like, oh, yeah, bro, that's not good.

Like, some of those are my friends, man. Like, that's my family. Like, and he's like, yeah, dude, I'm sorry. And I was like, oh, bro, thanks for saying that. So, you know, he didn't have to do that and he didn't have to say that. And so, man, I'm down with anybody who's like, you screw up, you just own it.

And you go, man, it's what I did. I'm, you know, I shouldn't have done that. And it's like, cool, no problem. Let's keep rolling. - That's good. 'Cause he's a Christian dude. I think I saw an article about it. So, obviously, he wasn't trying to come off the way he was.

He probably didn't even know you guys even paid attention to that stuff. But that's one thing, like, even me, people don't understand, like, as celebrities or whatever you wanna call it, like, we see stuff. When people are talking whatever, like, we see stuff. You know what I mean? And I think, like, one thing he was doing, like you just said, was judging.

And I think as Christians in general, one of the biggest turn-offs that Christians can put out in the world is how judgmental we can be and how, like, we think that we're better than people or we think that because we're a Christian, like, other people shouldn't do stuff. Or we just, we put judgment out in the world.

And I think, like, that is one of the worst things we can do as Christians if you wanna bring more people into the family. You know what I mean? - Yep, yep. - Do you agree? - I totally agree. And I'm reminded of that story where Jesus goes to, I wanna say Nicodemus, and for some reason, I am really messing up the name.

And that's hilarious. This is real, ladies and gentlemen. I do read my Bible most days, so. But there's this scene, it's not Nicodemus. It's Zacchaeus, thank you, Zacchaeus. ♪ Zacchaeus was a wee little man ♪ ♪ A wee little man was he ♪ So not Nicodemus, that's a great story as well.

But he goes to Zacchaeus' house, and Zacchaeus was a godless man who stole money from the Jewish people. And he was hated by the Jewish people. And here's Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. And he goes to his home, and here's my point about judgment and putting people in categories and assuming upon people based on a curse word, based on a cigarette, based on a rated R movie that they don't know God for these arbitrary, natural, fleshly things, is really unheard of in the lifestyle and trajectory and ministry of Jesus.

For instance, Zacchaeus, he goes to Zacchaeus' house, and we're actually not even told the details, Mike. We're not told the details, except that we know at the end, basically, of the scene that we're told, that we're privy to, Jesus goes, "Salvation has come to this house today." And the only thing we have on record, Nicodemus shifting or changing, is he said, "I'm gonna give back double all that I've stolen," which is an outrageous claim.

And my point is, Nicodemus saw something in Jesus at that dinner that so transformed him. But what he didn't see, Mike, was tradition, customs, rules, the Ten Commandments. That's not what changed Zacchaeus, who was basically a thief, he was a crook. He was a very, he would, you know, he'd be one of the big Ponzi scheme guys today that would go to jail for a long time.

Jesus went to dinner with him, he loved him. By the way, to go to dinner with somebody in those days was one of the most intimate things you could do. It's like posting on Instagram, "This is my guy." You know what I mean? It was like a cosign. Jesus didn't care, he went to his house, he loved him, and Zacchaeus experienced transformation, not by the change of his outward decorum or demeanor, but by a transformation of his heart that only Jesus can do.

So I take incredible issue. I think Christianity has colluded with the culture to the point that we now have categories that Jesus never gave. We have, "That guy's hot for Jesus. "That guy's lukewarm. "That guy's not." Like, we come up with, that's not in the Bible. That's not, those categories were not given by Jesus.

And I get very concerned when it comes from Christians when we start going, "Well, you know, "they're not a believer." And the irony is I've been in settings now, and I know you have too, where people make judgment calls on public figures. They just don't know they're our friends.

You ever been in one of those settings? Well, I know so-and-so, they're not a believer. And you're like, "Actually, they are, "and that's my friend." Like, so I've had preachers call out in their sermons my friends and belittle them, and I've had to call them on the phone and say, "Can I ask you a question?

"Have you ever met them?" - Right. - And the answer is always, "What, no." I go, "Well, actually, I have, and that's my friend." And so I think it's outrageous for you to make a judgment call to your congregation. But Mike, that's where we're at in some cases. We're calling public figures out, and we're treating them like cartoon characters and not real humans.

- There's no doubt. And the story you just brought up about Zacharias. - Nicodemus, I know, I got us all mixed up now. - Zacchaeus. - Oh, Zacchaeus. Yeah, Nicodemus was the first guy. We are so confused. - But not, like, Jesus hung with the sinners. - That's right.

- And he, you know, he would go to dinner with them. He would be with them. And then because he was so unconditionally loving towards them, like, that's what changed their hearts a lot of the times. I think, I think, like, people get it misconstrued today, and they think that you have to, like, earn Jesus's love or whatever.

And, like, a verse comes to mind about, you know, this is something I'm kind of confused about, so I want to ask you. - Please. - It says, like, if you don't do the right things, then it shows that you're not in God, or it shows that, like, God is not in you if you're not doing the right things.

But Jesus, when he was on earth, he was hanging with people that weren't doing the right things. So, like, where do those two type of things kind of, like, come together? - To be honest, the distinction that is imperative to draw delineation between, you are referencing kind of, you're quoting what would be, like, a conglomeration of verses, which is like, hey, isn't there verses in the Bible that are, like, fruits of repentance, for instance?

Like, you will show that you have changed your mind about God and the world, and Jesus is king, and you'll demonstrate that you believe that, and you've had a change of mind, because your actions decorum and demeanor will change, right, that's what you're saying, and the scripture does teach that.

But then you're saying, well, how does that, how can we marry that to the trajectory of Jesus' ministry as he hangs out with people who, in some cases, never changed, right? - You put it way better than me, but yes. - But no, but this is a really important question, theologically, right?

So the distinction would be arbitrary timetables that we impose, and here's our problem. We think in, what somebody said, evangelicals and Christians think in weekends, Catholics think in centuries, and we actually kinda need to meet somewhere in the middle, meaning we have arbitrary timetables. So let's say that I'm your friend.

Let's say you love Jesus and I don't, okay? Now, a lot of people in Christendom would say, yo, Mike, your buddy Judah, that's your best friend, and now I'm making us best friends, this is very convenient, but they would say to you, that's your best friend, your best friend didn't know Jesus, your best friend's doing this, this, this, this, and this.

Mike, you need to tell your best friend, and maybe your response would be, which I hope it would be, it's like, I think my friend understands who I am, what, how I live, what I'm about, and I'm just gonna love him, and I know when the time is right, God is going to persuade him.

By the way, my favorite definition of faith is divine persuasion. So the Bible makes it very clear, you can't save me, you can't convince me, but you can love me, and you can serve me, and over a process of time, but here's the reality. What those well-meaning Christian friends mean is, your best friend needs to get saved fast, or something's wrong with you, and I think those arbitrary timetables are causing us to try to force people to become Christian, we're trying to force people to understand Jesus, and that is not at all how it works, and here's what I would say.

If I was trying to peddle a man-made religion, I would have to coerce, force, manipulate, right, all of this, but either, is God God, or is he not? If he is, then let God be God, and that's what I say about, I have so many friends still that don't know Jesus, and people, that bothers people, it bothers people that I'm a pastor and a preacher, and I have very close friends that still don't believe what I believe, right?

I see, we've seen thousands of people saved in our church this past year, even during COVID, and yet I've still got friends who haven't, but, but what an honor to, I'm playing the long game, so like, I got friends right now who are 38, 32, 37, don't know Jesus, and I'm like, they may not know Jesus 'til they're 82, but guess what I'm gonna do?

I'm not going anywhere, I'm gonna love 'em, we're gonna share meals together, and they're just gonna keep watching me, love my wife, love my kids, love Jesus, and then I just keep telling God, that's your, that's your son, that's your daughter, so you're gonna have to show yourself to them.

I'll answer questions, I'll be there, but I'm not gonna convince 'em, 'cause I didn't convince myself, so I can't convince them, so that's up to you. - It's all God, and that's what I-- - That's it. - I had to come to that conclusion, like I would try so hard to, just myself even, will myself to be better, and like you said, outwardly do certain things, and it got to the point where like, I had to literally like, step all the way back and realize, the people that were just on the outside doing all the righteous things, and trying to follow the rules, those are the same people that killed Jesus and were yelling crucify him, and then I came to the realization like he was hanging with sinners, but a lot of times, they came all the way back around, and I just, like why?

And I got to the same point you got to, God changes us, like we don't do that. We can't just will ourselves, we might have a couple good days, a few good days a week of doing good, but then we're gonna mess up again, and then if you're living in that space of, you know, I have to do this, this, this, you're always gonna be guilty, and then what's the point of being a Christian, you know what I mean?

But when God changes, and you're continuously like looking at him to like change your heart and mold your heart, it takes so much of the pressure off, and that's the real joy of being a Christian, and I had to get to that point, so I totally understand what you're saying.

With our friends, like we can't will them to become Christians, but we can love 'em unconditionally, at least as good as we can, so. - You know what's crazy, Mike? I was reading in John 13, it's verses 34 and 35, yesterday or the day before, and it says, Jesus says, I give you a new commandment, and I was like, ooh, cool, new, right?

It's a new, this is novel, this is exciting, who doesn't like new stuff? A new commandment, and it says, love one another, love one another. Now, first of all, I'm like, loving one another is not new, Jesus, why do you call it a new commandment, and here's what I discovered, here's the new part.

Comma, love one another the way I have loved you, and here's such a gross misunderstanding about Christianity. The essence of the Christian journey is impossible, but we won't admit that. We think in our own effort, in our own strength. Do you know what Jesus requires to follow him? Total and complete surrender, which is to say, here's how you surrender verbally.

I can't, God, I can't do this. I'm empty, I'm broken, I'm weak, and I can barely, I'm struggling to accept myself, to love myself, let alone love my neighbor. That's why the Bible says, love your neighbor as yourself. We can't even love ourselves without the help of Jesus. Bro, I've had so many sleepless nights where I've wondered, am I ever going to fix this temptation, these challenges, these weaknesses, these proclivities?

Am I a hypocrite? Am I really a man of God? Can I really pull this off? Can I be a dad? Can I hold a real marriage together? Like, am I gonna do this? And every day it brings me to this point, which is so powerful. God, I can't do this.

That's why Jesus said, I want you to love each other. This is how you'll know you're Christians. You'll love each other the way I love you. I took issue with God the other day, 'cause I said, Jesus, that is impossible for me to love people like you love me.

But that's the point, right? That we come to Jesus and go, this life of following you and loving people is impossible. And Jesus is gonna say, that's right. But I'm gonna do in you what is impossible, and I will teach you to love people. And dude, if that isn't compelling, we are living a supernatural, abnormal life because of Jesus.

It's awesome, man. - Man, that is powerful, bro. - It's the best life. - That is. Amen, that is. (laughing) That is powerful. I had some other questions that were less deep, but-- - Bring it on, let's do it, whatever you want. - That's so good, man. My next question is for the young fellas.

Like, I've seen you and your wife interact, and you guys are so, so dope together in the way you just support each other and everything. What would you tell to the young dudes and what to look for in a girl and eventually a wife? Like, what's the main things you want to look for?

And talk to me, too, 'cause I'm looking, too. - Yeah, we're gonna turn Curious Mike into Seeking Mike. Here we go. Like, who says that? Who says that? Seeking Mike. We're gonna turn Curious Mike into Searching Mike. Well, I think, first of all, quite literally, the first approach has to be, hey, would I marry me?

As silly as that sounds, I think that's where this whole conversation starts. Hey, if I'm honest, would I marry me? Like, am I a good, like, for instance, right? Let's talk to Curious Mike for a second. Okay, you want a woman who listens, who is empathetic, caring, strong, knows who she is.

Keeps herself looking beautiful, right? The best version of herself. I mean, you always look sharp, put together, you like fashion, style, like all these things you want, right? Here's what's funny, is you project that with your own life. So a lot of people fail to recognize that there is some magnetism involved that's just natural.

And that is, if that's what you want, if you project empathy, being a good listener, being selfless, when you see your friends, how you doing, man, are you good? Bro, tell me what's going on in your life. I want to know right now. Well, guess what? You're going to be, what's going to attract to you is women who are like, who like to roll that way.

And they're going to be attracted to you and you're going to be attracted to them. So I think the misappropriation that is probably really underrated is that you got single adults rolling around going, man, I can't, fine, I'm so, I'm so, man, I went on this date, I was so angry at this girl, she was so annoying, and I'm like, well, I bet as you got angry, it certainly didn't put her at ease and make her be her best at dinner.

You know what I'm saying? So if she feels your tension, now she feels guarded, I bet it was a bad date. You know what I mean? As opposed to, I'm going to give this date a chance. I'm going to open up a little bit. I'm going to ask questions about her.

I'm going to, and I would just urge men and women everywhere who are in pursuit of a life partner, like, man, allow yourself to begin to develop, you know, a lot of people are like, well, how do I become a better listener? Start practicing at least once a day, having a conversation where you talk way less than the other person, literally.

So Chelsea and I have a little contest when we travel, and then I'm kind of outing myself now, 'cause pastors love to talk. Is this podcast not proof of that, right? Preachers like to talk. But we would go to dinner with the host preacher or the conference we were at, and we would always make sure that in the dinner we would get that, the other couple, to talk more about themselves.

In fact, twice as much as we would, 'cause we felt like that would ensure that that couple would feel encouraged and heard and valued and loved. And so that's been a game. It's more than a game. It's a lifestyle now for me. But playing the game taught me a way of living.

And I practice unselfish concern. Unselfish concern is I'm concerned about you because I love you, and that's it. Selfish concern is, yo, Mike, how you doing? Yo, you got any Puma gear? You know, like, whatever, you know. But unselfish concern is, gosh, I just love you for you. You know, you're enough.

- And that's, in and of itself, is a supernatural type of thing. You don't just, you can't just do that. - You can't just do that. - That's from God. - That's you're like, God, you gotta help me. - 'Cause you can't just become-- - We're naturally selfish, right?

- For sure. - Born selfish. - Well, talk to me, because you're friends with a lot of celebrities. You know, you've helped Justin along the way a lot. What about a dude like me where I'm in the NBA, there's plenty of, you know, girls around. - Killin' it in the NBA.

- How do you, in a situation like that, filter through and find a girl when they all could just be, you know. 'Cause, like, I know a lot of my, even my teammates or whoever watches this, a lot of us don't even know girls' intentions. We can't decipher, 'cause they could put up a front.

They could be their best selves for a date, but they could be their best selves all the way 'til you get married, but you don't really know what you're marrying until you marry 'em. How do you decipher that? Like, how do you help Justin? How do you help guys like me?

- I definitely think, it's so funny. People hear the word prayer, and they're, like, intimidated. Walls go up. Oh, but here we go again. So cliche, but what I actually mean is that you would take your concerns to God and say 'em out loud and listen to yourself. Say them out loud.

God, I'm afraid that I am going to get involved with a woman who only wants me because of what I do or money I have. That's a start, number one, is express to God. My favorite thing to do to ask a dating couple or a soon-to-be-married couple is, okay, greatest fears about the relationship go, you gotta be honest, and to hear someone, which is so cool about you.

I think you're a very transparent person. That's a commitment you've made. You've wanted to be honest and real, which, since the moment we met, you've been an open book, which I love that about you. I think it's an incredibly endearing quality. It's a Jesus-like quality. So that's obviously what you desire, but I'll say this.

You gotta be honest with God, and then, I wish more guys did this, and I say guys only 'cause I am a guy and we're picking on guys, but I could suggest things to women, but I've never been a woman, and neither have you, and so sometimes I feel a little bit out of depth, so I'll say this to guys.

I am still at a loss why men don't communicate expectations early on in any potential relationship. I want you to know, like, if I were you, I would be like, I'm gonna put out there my expectations and intentions in a woman, and not to make her require any person to, but simply to say, hey, if you and I are gonna work, like, here's the kind of person I wanna be.

Here's what I value, and here's what I'm about, and then I'll say, secondly, if I were you, when I would go on these dates, I would put something very vulnerable on the table, and I would see if that vulnerability was met, because if that vulnerability is met, at least you perceive to the best of your ability that vulnerability is met, you might have just stumbled on a very special person, because typically, when somebody shares vulnerability, the most you'll get from someone who's not comfortable with that is like, wow, that's really vulnerable, and maybe a giggle, we barely know each other, and it's like, okay, this person has some walls up, which, by the way, is very natural.

I'm not saying that's a wrong thing. I just know you enough to know the kind of woman you're after, and I know you want a woman who's very honest and open, so that you guys can connect at a deep level. - Thanks, bro. - I mean, that's like my, that's my best Dr.

Phil, you know, so. (laughs) - That's a good Dr. Phil. My last question for you, and then we'll wrap it up. If you had the whole world in an audience, and you had to preach a sermon to the entire world, and everyone's tuned in, like, listening just to you, what would you preach about?

- Well, I think any preacher out there who hasn't thought this through to an extent probably just hasn't been preaching very long. Like, as a basketball player, do you ever think about what your last shot will be? Like, you know, I just watched Michael's last Chicago shot. You know, he crosses over, the guy from Utah, I used to know his name, hits that shot, and Bob Costas or somebody says, and maybe that's the last shot we see, the great Michael Jordan, you know.

What's your last shot? And so, for me, it's a last sermon. What's my last sermon? And I think it's, there's only one, and it's, I'll say this. In Acts 17, Paul goes to this, he goes to Thessalonica, then he goes to Berea, and then in Acts 17, he's kind of in a, he's in a holding pattern in Athens, and Athens isn't quite Corinth of the day, but Athens has a little bit of LA, Tokyo, Hong Kong, New York vibes, right?

It's a pretty cultured city, a lot of tourism at the time in Athens when Paul would have been there in Acts 17, and it says he was compelled by all of the idol worship that he saw, and he went to some open square and he saw all these idols and their names, and there was just one idol, and it was unnamed, and it said to the unknown God, and I mean, I could almost get emotional about it.

Paul gets an audience because he was a genius and a brilliant, and he says, "I want to tell you about that unknown God," and I think the reason, the ultimate reason I preach is 'cause I still think the country I was born in and raised in still doesn't know Jesus, and there's an unknown God, and he's the true God, and what I mean is we know some of the customs, we know some of the traditions, we know some of the practices, we're familiar with the pageantry, we're familiar with singing songs, we're familiar with preachers preaching in certain tones and things, we're used to bands now, we're used to productions, lobby time, we're used to getting coffees at churches now, there's all these things we're used to, but I'm like, but do we know him?

Who is he? I looked at John 13, and I'm like, love one another as I have loved you, and so the operative question is what? Do you know how he loves you? Do you know how God loves you? Because if you knew how God loves you, you would be quite literally mesmerized.

I mean, who's not after love? What big recording artist has ever hit it big without singing about love? Oh, that would be no one. Not a single recording artist in history has ever made it big, whatever that means, without singing about love, why? Because at the core of our being, we all want to be loved.

Like, we just want to be loved. Do I matter? Am I seen? I was here, do people know that? Do I have a purpose? Am I loved? And the message, Mike, you and I are trying to get out to the world is yes, and yes, and yes, and what we're saying is we can prove it, too, because there was one man, only one, who predicted his life, his death, his burial, and his resurrection, and we'll throw in the ascension, and he pulled it off.

There's only one, and he has a name, and we're told where he was born, and the city he was raised in, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who physically walked this earth 2,000 years ago, and he's changed the world as we know it. I am in love with him. He has revealed the creator of heaven and earth to us, and I am overwhelmed and undone at his endless, unconditional love, yes, for me, yes, for my wife, yes, for my kids, but for my friends, for new friends, and ultimately for the world.

I believe we're at a crossroads, in a crossroad of cultures in this country and around the world, and I believe that there has never been a more important time for entertainers, artists, preachers, writers, thinkers, singers, dancers, to tell the story of God, and it's a story that is so unknown, and we just gotta make it known that people are loved and they're cared for, and so I know that's what you're about.

It is your fault for having me on here and asking that question, because this has turned into what I think is a 16-minute sermon, which is only a very short sermon, but thank you for asking that question, and it means the world, and thank you for having me on Curious Mike.

- Like you said, bro, that's what it's about, man, so I haven't done this on any of the other ones, but you're so inspiring to me. I just wanna ask, do you think that we could just pray for whoever watches this sermon? - I would love that. - And end it that way?

- We having a full-blown altar call, right? (laughing) Let's do it, let's do it. God, I thank you so much for, first of all, this man. I thank you for Mike. Thank you for the opportunity to do this podcast, and more than anything, together, Mike and I just pray for each and every person watching this right now, and we ask that you would persuade.

Persuade us of your love. Persuade us of your reality. Persuade us of your validity and your power and your protection and your providence and your peace and your joy. Jesus, help us to show the world who you are and what you do. I thank you so much for the opportunity to talk and be here with Mike, and we pray all this in Jesus' name.

Amen. - Amen, thank you. - Amen, thank you, man. Love you. - Shout out to Lemon Perfect. We out. (laughing) This episode is sponsored by Lemon Perfect. (upbeat music)