Creativity, Alcohol & Drug Use | Rick Rubin & Dr. Andrew Huberman
00:00:00.000 | - You don't drink alcohol, correct?
00:00:04.240 | - Correct.
00:00:05.760 | - Have you ever had a sip of alcohol?
00:00:07.880 | - I had, I drank alcohol once as part of a class experiment
00:00:12.880 | and had to mix all these drinks and taste them.
00:00:19.320 | And it was a terrible experience,
00:00:22.260 | but it was a requirement in the class I was taking.
00:00:26.680 | - Wow, school was different back then.
00:00:28.360 | - Yeah.
00:00:29.200 | - I think school was different.
00:00:30.240 | I think school was different.
00:00:31.240 | We used to prick our fingers and do our own blood tests
00:00:33.560 | in science class.
00:00:34.400 | - I remember that, I never did it
00:00:35.240 | 'cause I was always needle phobic,
00:00:36.640 | but that was definitely something
00:00:38.200 | that was asked of us to do.
00:00:39.920 | - Yeah, you could never get away with that now
00:00:41.920 | in a high school classroom.
00:00:43.420 | The reason I ask about alcohol is,
00:00:46.080 | first of all, I'm not the anti-alcohol crusader,
00:00:48.120 | even though I did an episode about alcohol,
00:00:49.560 | which discouraged many people from drinking more of it.
00:00:52.320 | But I think for a lot of people,
00:00:56.460 | the idea of smoking cannabis, drinking alcohol,
00:01:01.320 | for them in their mind is synonymous
00:01:03.520 | with the creative process, especially music,
00:01:06.200 | for a lot of reasons that people can imagine.
00:01:10.700 | I think it's remarkable and impressive
00:01:14.680 | and worth spending a few moments with you sharing with us,
00:01:17.960 | how is it that you were around all of that?
00:01:20.760 | You're clearly part of the crew,
00:01:24.900 | meaning you're part of the creative process.
00:01:28.640 | Presumably people offered you alcohol, drugs, et cetera,
00:01:31.880 | but something in you seems like resistant
00:01:34.720 | to any kind of peer pressure.
00:01:35.960 | And as an adult, that's impressive,
00:01:39.000 | but to think like when I was 15, 16, sure,
00:01:42.660 | sort of regret it, but yeah, I drank,
00:01:45.600 | I had my experiences and then eventually stopped that.
00:01:49.760 | But most people are not good at not drinking
00:01:54.280 | if they don't want to drink ever,
00:01:56.100 | or just once from a high school class.
00:01:58.860 | What was the internal narrative in your mind
00:02:02.420 | when that stuff was around?
00:02:05.140 | And what allowed you to just say,
00:02:08.600 | no, I'm gonna, I belong here, but I'm not gonna do that.
00:02:13.000 | - It just was never interesting to me.
00:02:14.620 | And I think maybe it had to do with being an only child.
00:02:17.620 | I'd never, being an only child,
00:02:20.740 | I think made me less resistant to peer pressure
00:02:23.620 | because I felt more confident in who I was,
00:02:28.620 | whatever that was, just from being with myself
00:02:33.780 | and not with other siblings.
00:02:36.500 | I'm guessing, I don't know if that's right,
00:02:38.460 | but that's my first inclination
00:02:41.220 | is to guess that would be the case.
00:02:42.980 | Also, I've always known what I like
00:02:46.180 | and known what I don't like
00:02:47.460 | and know there are things I want to try,
00:02:49.840 | there are things I don't want to try.
00:02:51.220 | And I feel very good about not doing something
00:02:53.740 | I don't want to do.
00:02:55.180 | I feel great about it.
00:02:56.280 | - Have you ever been curious about psychedelics,
00:02:59.300 | given that- - I'm very curious.
00:03:00.840 | I've never done it, but I'm very curious.
00:03:02.620 | And I've been curious for a long time.
00:03:04.700 | There may be a time when I experiment.
00:03:07.420 | - Yeah, there are two psychedelics in particular
00:03:09.420 | that I find really interesting.
00:03:10.740 | One is macrodosilocybin,
00:03:12.740 | which I've done as part of a clinical trial.
00:03:15.180 | And my understanding is it reveals
00:03:17.700 | in a very intense and experiential way
00:03:19.700 | some component of the unconscious mind.
00:03:22.200 | And it allows for plasticity
00:03:23.500 | and rewiring of the brain that's permanent
00:03:27.220 | if you come to some understanding
00:03:29.500 | through the so-called integration.
00:03:30.940 | It's not without its risks.
00:03:32.020 | The other one that's really interesting
00:03:33.260 | that I've been hearing more about,
00:03:34.820 | and I have not tried,
00:03:36.540 | and it carries some dangers is ibogaine,
00:03:39.060 | which is 22 hours long.
00:03:41.260 | And people experience the world as normal
00:03:45.100 | with their eyes open, but when they close their eyes,
00:03:46.940 | they get a high-resolution movie-like version
00:03:50.260 | of prior experiences,
00:03:52.140 | but they have agency within those movies.
00:03:54.180 | They can reshape their reactions.
00:03:55.900 | This is being used to treat PTSD in veterans
00:03:58.180 | to great success.
00:04:00.660 | It has some cardiac risk associated with it,
00:04:05.260 | and it's not legal in the United States,
00:04:07.300 | and it's not being explored in clinical trials yet.
00:04:09.420 | But the state of Kentucky recently took,
00:04:13.640 | I think it's $40 million from the OxyContin settlement,
00:04:18.640 | and it's putting it to ibogaine research.
00:04:20.560 | - Interesting.
00:04:21.400 | - Yeah, so those are the two that kind of spring to mind,
00:04:25.120 | you know, kind of the classic psychedelic experience.
00:04:27.520 | - I've also heard good things about MDMA,
00:04:29.520 | but I've never done that.
00:04:30.600 | - Yeah, I have done MDMA as part,
00:04:32.920 | again, as part of a therapeutic trial.
00:04:35.280 | It's a strong empathogen.
00:04:37.140 | The danger with MDMA, I think,
00:04:41.480 | is that if you don't stay in the eye mask,
00:04:46.040 | or if you're listening to music or something,
00:04:49.640 | you can easily get anchored to some external cue
00:04:52.800 | and like see a plant and be like, "I love plants,"
00:04:55.000 | and spend the whole four to six hours
00:04:56.560 | thinking about your love of plants,
00:04:57.880 | which might be valuable.
00:04:59.440 | But I think the strong introspective work
00:05:01.600 | is best done with a therapist there
00:05:04.280 | and you in the eye mask,
00:05:05.560 | and occasionally leaving the eye mask
00:05:07.160 | and writing things down.
00:05:08.560 | So, you know, the reason I put that detail in there
00:05:11.600 | is that the psychedelic experience
00:05:15.320 | is very different with eyes open versus in the eye mask,
00:05:19.460 | with a clinician there versus recreationally.
00:05:22.360 | And it's not just about dangers versus safety.
00:05:26.080 | It's also about, like, it's a big investment
00:05:28.760 | and what one stands to get out of it,
00:05:30.740 | I think depends on how much introspection
00:05:32.840 | you're willing to do.
00:05:34.400 | We won't be doing it this afternoon.
00:05:37.240 | (upbeat music)
00:05:40.660 | (upbeat music)
00:05:43.240 | (upbeat music)