- You don't drink alcohol, correct? - Correct. - Have you ever had a sip of alcohol? - I had, I drank alcohol once as part of a class experiment and had to mix all these drinks and taste them. And it was a terrible experience, but it was a requirement in the class I was taking.

- Wow, school was different back then. - Yeah. - I think school was different. I think school was different. We used to prick our fingers and do our own blood tests in science class. - I remember that, I never did it 'cause I was always needle phobic, but that was definitely something that was asked of us to do.

- Yeah, you could never get away with that now in a high school classroom. The reason I ask about alcohol is, first of all, I'm not the anti-alcohol crusader, even though I did an episode about alcohol, which discouraged many people from drinking more of it. But I think for a lot of people, the idea of smoking cannabis, drinking alcohol, for them in their mind is synonymous with the creative process, especially music, for a lot of reasons that people can imagine.

I think it's remarkable and impressive and worth spending a few moments with you sharing with us, how is it that you were around all of that? You're clearly part of the crew, meaning you're part of the creative process. Presumably people offered you alcohol, drugs, et cetera, but something in you seems like resistant to any kind of peer pressure.

And as an adult, that's impressive, but to think like when I was 15, 16, sure, sort of regret it, but yeah, I drank, I had my experiences and then eventually stopped that. But most people are not good at not drinking if they don't want to drink ever, or just once from a high school class.

What was the internal narrative in your mind when that stuff was around? And what allowed you to just say, no, I'm gonna, I belong here, but I'm not gonna do that. - It just was never interesting to me. And I think maybe it had to do with being an only child.

I'd never, being an only child, I think made me less resistant to peer pressure because I felt more confident in who I was, whatever that was, just from being with myself and not with other siblings. I'm guessing, I don't know if that's right, but that's my first inclination is to guess that would be the case.

Also, I've always known what I like and known what I don't like and know there are things I want to try, there are things I don't want to try. And I feel very good about not doing something I don't want to do. I feel great about it. - Have you ever been curious about psychedelics, given that- - I'm very curious.

I've never done it, but I'm very curious. And I've been curious for a long time. There may be a time when I experiment. - Yeah, there are two psychedelics in particular that I find really interesting. One is macrodosilocybin, which I've done as part of a clinical trial. And my understanding is it reveals in a very intense and experiential way some component of the unconscious mind.

And it allows for plasticity and rewiring of the brain that's permanent if you come to some understanding through the so-called integration. It's not without its risks. The other one that's really interesting that I've been hearing more about, and I have not tried, and it carries some dangers is ibogaine, which is 22 hours long.

And people experience the world as normal with their eyes open, but when they close their eyes, they get a high-resolution movie-like version of prior experiences, but they have agency within those movies. They can reshape their reactions. This is being used to treat PTSD in veterans to great success. It has some cardiac risk associated with it, and it's not legal in the United States, and it's not being explored in clinical trials yet.

But the state of Kentucky recently took, I think it's $40 million from the OxyContin settlement, and it's putting it to ibogaine research. - Interesting. - Yeah, so those are the two that kind of spring to mind, you know, kind of the classic psychedelic experience. - I've also heard good things about MDMA, but I've never done that.

- Yeah, I have done MDMA as part, again, as part of a therapeutic trial. It's a strong empathogen. The danger with MDMA, I think, is that if you don't stay in the eye mask, or if you're listening to music or something, you can easily get anchored to some external cue and like see a plant and be like, "I love plants," and spend the whole four to six hours thinking about your love of plants, which might be valuable.

But I think the strong introspective work is best done with a therapist there and you in the eye mask, and occasionally leaving the eye mask and writing things down. So, you know, the reason I put that detail in there is that the psychedelic experience is very different with eyes open versus in the eye mask, with a clinician there versus recreationally.

And it's not just about dangers versus safety. It's also about, like, it's a big investment and what one stands to get out of it, I think depends on how much introspection you're willing to do. We won't be doing it this afternoon. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)