B-Team Jiu Jitsu: Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nicky Ryan

00:00:00.000 | - How would a kangaroo attack a human?

00:00:01.640 | - Knock 'em down and then they choke 'em.

00:00:04.160 | - Do the kangaroos do?

00:00:05.000 | - They choke each other, yeah.

00:00:06.240 | - They don't choke each other.

00:00:07.440 | - You don't believe me?

00:00:08.760 | You wanna watch a video?

00:00:09.600 | They choke each other out.

00:00:11.360 | - I've seen this, yeah.

00:00:12.560 | - I mean, probably the most annoying one

00:00:14.920 | was obviously the one where I had Gordon Arnby

00:00:16.600 | I was like, "Tap, bro."

00:00:17.880 | And he wouldn't tap, so I let him out.

00:00:19.820 | - I didn't get surgery, I didn't do essentially any rehab,

00:00:25.680 | I just have noise seal on my left leg.

00:00:27.440 | - So what's it like having noise?

00:00:28.720 | - The surgeon goes, "You've got two options,

00:00:30.680 | "surgery, rehab only."

00:00:31.960 | Nikki goes, "I'll do nothing."

00:00:34.440 | Yeah, I mean, what could possibly go wrong

00:00:35.720 | if you're the world's best grappler, hates you,

00:00:37.680 | and you're gently provoking him behind the scenes every day?

00:00:40.240 | Well, I mean.

00:00:41.080 | - In Texas.

00:00:41.900 | - And you've stolen his brother, held him for ransom.

00:00:44.560 | - It is like a story of a shitty Western.

00:00:46.360 | - The last part of a difficult wake up for me

00:00:49.320 | is I try to find a sad movie and at least cry

00:00:52.160 | about a pound out.

00:00:53.800 | That really gets me over the line.

00:00:54.960 | - What are the rules in the streets?

00:00:56.320 | - Do you think if you're on steroids

00:00:58.080 | you would have finished the choke?

00:01:00.200 | - I mean, for sure.

00:01:01.240 | - Who knew that the cure to the Dagestani wrestling

00:01:06.240 | were the Aussies?

00:01:07.620 | - The following is a conversation with Craig Jones,

00:01:12.640 | Nikki Rod, and Nikki Ryan,

00:01:15.080 | who together with Ethan Krelenston and others

00:01:18.040 | make up the B Team, a legendary jujitsu team

00:01:20.800 | here in Austin, Texas.

00:01:22.400 | It was formed after the so-called Donahar Death Squad,

00:01:25.920 | the team headed by John Donahar, split up

00:01:28.600 | into New Wave Jiu-Jitsu and B Team Jiu-Jitsu,

00:01:32.480 | both located here in Austin, Texas.

00:01:35.680 | There has been a lot of trash talk back and forth,

00:01:38.520 | including accusations of greasing and steroid use.

00:01:42.240 | And I, as a practitioner and fan of grappling,

00:01:45.040 | jiu-jitsu, and martial arts in general, am here for it.

00:01:49.920 | To see the best grapplers in history,

00:01:52.080 | go at it, both on the mat and on Instagram.

00:01:56.080 | I like the people on both teams and train with both,

00:02:00.380 | and am really happy to see the exciting,

00:02:03.100 | rapid evolution of the sport that these athletes

00:02:05.720 | and coaches are catalyzing.

00:02:08.880 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:02:10.920 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:02:12.900 | in the description.

00:02:14.120 | And now, dear friends, here's Craig Jones,

00:02:17.440 | Nikki Rod, and Nikki Ryan.

00:02:21.160 | Craig, can you introduce everyone?

00:02:23.360 | - Yep, so we got Nikki Rod here, brown belt,

00:02:26.920 | two-time ADCC silver medalist.

00:02:30.440 | Nikki Ryan here.

00:02:31.640 | That's it.

00:02:34.240 | (all laughing)

00:02:35.920 | - Who are you?

00:02:37.520 | - And I'm Craig Jones, also two-time ADCC silver medalist.

00:02:41.020 | - Silver medalist, so the number one loser.

00:02:43.480 | - Number one loser.

00:02:44.600 | - And maybe a little bit more, your bio says,

00:02:48.080 | "Widely known as the Black Belt Slayer,

00:02:50.160 | "hails from New Jersey, the land of pizza and biceps."

00:02:53.520 | - Yes, that's pretty accurate.

00:02:55.720 | - You also do carry a gun on you a lot?

00:02:57.920 | - Yeah, I keep it loaded, you know, keep it on me.

00:03:01.000 | - You have one today?

00:03:02.680 | - In the car.

00:03:04.120 | - That was a mistake, that was your first mistake.

00:03:05.840 | - Yeah, I think you're too close.

00:03:07.360 | (all laughing)

00:03:09.940 | - And you are Nikki Ryan, what else is there?

00:03:14.800 | What else do we know?

00:03:15.880 | - Gordon Ryan's brother.

00:03:16.720 | - Gordon Ryan's brother.

00:03:17.680 | - Waiting for that one.

00:03:18.720 | (all laughing)

00:03:20.480 | All right, so and you're all together,

00:03:22.840 | part of the leadership of the B team here in Austin.

00:03:26.760 | Let's just get out some introductory questions.

00:03:29.720 | What in general accomplishment

00:03:31.200 | of the things you mentioned are you most proud of?

00:03:33.520 | - I mean, I'm proud just to not have to work a full-time job

00:03:37.440 | just to get by on the bullshit I've done so far.

00:03:40.560 | - Yeah. - Honestly.

00:03:41.440 | - Just making money of a thing you love.

00:03:43.040 | - Exactly, yeah.

00:03:43.880 | - When was the first time you made money

00:03:45.440 | on a thing you love?

00:03:47.080 | - Oh, probably a jujitsu tournament.

00:03:49.280 | I think maybe in Abu Dhabi where I won $1,000,

00:03:51.520 | thought I was rich.

00:03:52.560 | - Yeah, yeah, what'd you spend that $1,000 on?

00:03:55.240 | - Probably something bad,

00:03:57.280 | probably drugs or something at the time,

00:03:58.760 | maybe blew it at the after party.

00:04:00.640 | (all laughing)

00:04:02.840 | - That's a good introduction to Craig.

00:04:04.120 | So what about you?

00:04:04.960 | When's the first time you made money on jujitsu?

00:04:07.440 | Or what's actually stepping back,

00:04:09.400 | like what's the thing you're most proud of?

00:04:10.720 | Is it a similar kind of thing?

00:04:12.080 | - I think I'm most proud of is, I mean,

00:04:15.040 | for sure two 80cc silver medals,

00:04:17.240 | which hurts 'cause you're so close to getting that gold,

00:04:20.080 | but it takes time.

00:04:22.120 | I'm understanding that sport of jujitsu

00:04:24.400 | takes quite a while to be at the tip top,

00:04:26.920 | to be the absolute best.

00:04:28.000 | So, and I'm just being consistent in my training

00:04:30.960 | and my craft and I'll get that number one spot one day.

00:04:34.280 | - What failure or loss is the most painful to you?

00:04:36.760 | - I don't know, I have a pretty short term memory.

00:04:40.520 | So my losses, I just forget about 'em.

00:04:43.640 | Yeah, I mean, for sure my loss at this past 80cc

00:04:47.960 | in the finals, that one sunk in

00:04:50.040 | because I definitely thought I was gonna win.

00:04:51.920 | I mean, like it takes a while to produce the skills

00:04:55.080 | or the reactions more so that you need to have

00:04:58.000 | to be that number one pound for pound guy.

00:05:01.240 | And pre 80cc, I was coming off an injury.

00:05:04.840 | So it took me a little bit to find the right mentality

00:05:08.000 | and physicality that I needed in order to get the wins

00:05:11.360 | that required gold.

00:05:12.520 | So yeah, it's just process.

00:05:15.200 | - Interesting, you keep saying process,

00:05:16.680 | like it takes a while to build up.

00:05:18.080 | So you're not like thinking of a loss like 80cc

00:05:20.880 | as like a specific failures, you're not,

00:05:24.160 | you haven't gone long enough in a particular process

00:05:26.760 | to being a champ.

00:05:27.760 | - Well, I mean, for me, I'm closing in on five years

00:05:31.400 | of specifically jujitsu training.

00:05:33.360 | I'm about four and a half right now.

00:05:35.400 | And yeah, it's just, you constantly have these ups

00:05:39.680 | and downs in training where like,

00:05:41.640 | as long as you stay consistent, you'll have a gradual raise,

00:05:44.880 | but it's still, you'll have these peaks and lows

00:05:47.720 | and just trying to get better every day.

00:05:50.120 | I'm definitely not where I will be in a few years from now,

00:05:54.200 | but I'm striving to get there.

00:05:55.400 | - Are you actually a brown belt or was that a joke?

00:05:58.400 | - Brown belt, yeah.

00:05:59.440 | - You're a brown belt, like how many stripes?

00:06:02.720 | - No stripes.

00:06:03.560 | - No stripes.

00:06:04.400 | - Stripeless.

00:06:05.220 | - Okay, is that part of the process

00:06:06.840 | that you're working through?

00:06:08.360 | - Definitely part of the process.

00:06:10.040 | I think a black belt is just based upon

00:06:12.000 | how much knowledge you have.

00:06:13.640 | Obviously, if you're talking competitive wise,

00:06:16.320 | like from when I started,

00:06:17.680 | I was able to beat most black belts.

00:06:19.320 | That's just kind of how I was gifted

00:06:21.760 | from my wrestling experience.

00:06:24.080 | And the time will come when it's right,

00:06:26.960 | but I'm not in a rush at all.

00:06:28.480 | I'm continuing.

00:06:29.480 | I just kind of take every day for what it is

00:06:31.240 | and try to improve upon that.

00:06:32.840 | - I mean, I want to give him the black belt.

00:06:34.200 | Nikki Ryan says he's not ready.

00:06:35.600 | (laughing)

00:06:37.520 | - Are you guys, as no-gi folks,

00:06:39.360 | do you take that seriously?

00:06:40.760 | Like the black belt?

00:06:41.640 | Or how much does it come into play into?

00:06:43.960 | - Yeah, I mean, it's like Nikki Rod said,

00:06:45.840 | it's based off of knowledge,

00:06:47.760 | not just what you do out on the competition mats.

00:06:50.000 | 'Cause like you said, he had years of wrestling experience

00:06:52.720 | and obviously he's very physically gifted.

00:06:55.320 | So we grade based off of the amount of knowledge

00:06:57.400 | that you have.

00:06:58.240 | - How do you measure knowledge?

00:07:00.600 | - I think teaching is a good measurement of it.

00:07:03.560 | Like how well you're able to show the moves

00:07:06.320 | and really make sure that you have an understanding

00:07:08.560 | of what you're doing.

00:07:09.800 | - Yeah, it's an interesting rank.

00:07:10.800 | It's like something that takes many years to accomplish.

00:07:14.120 | And for a lot of people, it's truly meaningful.

00:07:15.680 | It's like it represents a particular step in a journey.

00:07:19.000 | But for you guys, it's almost like different

00:07:21.960 | because you've been so focused on competition

00:07:24.400 | that I guess if you take it seriously,

00:07:26.800 | it is a big step for you too.

00:07:28.040 | Like as martial artists,

00:07:29.520 | that's bigger than just being

00:07:31.920 | like top of the world competitors, right?

00:07:34.720 | So I thought it was a joke.

00:07:35.760 | You guys are actually taking it seriously.

00:07:38.120 | - That he's a brown belt.

00:07:38.960 | - That he's a brown belt and you're taking seriously

00:07:41.280 | the rank of black belt and like, it's part of your journey.

00:07:45.280 | - Think by the time I get a black belt,

00:07:46.640 | I'll be no more pound for pound.

00:07:48.480 | I think it'd be pretty nice to accomplish that

00:07:51.200 | as a brown belt and then maybe toss a black belt on top.

00:07:53.640 | - Maybe get promoted on the podium.

00:07:55.740 | What do you guys, do you love winning or hate losing more?

00:08:01.800 | - I definitely don't hate losing.

00:08:04.280 | If it pays the bills, I don't mind.

00:08:06.200 | - Oh, really?

00:08:07.040 | - Yeah, but honestly, if I win,

00:08:08.600 | I feel more relief than anything

00:08:10.000 | rather than like excitement and stuff.

00:08:11.640 | I'm like, oh, fuck, thank God that's over.

00:08:14.080 | - I hate losing for sure.

00:08:16.040 | But I understand that it's necessary

00:08:18.680 | to get to where you wanna be.

00:08:21.400 | And then winning is like, I mean,

00:08:24.280 | what I think winning is probably the closest

00:08:26.800 | you can get to like heroin or something.

00:08:29.400 | 'Cause I mean, we're on a,

00:08:30.520 | like if you do have extreme success

00:08:32.280 | and a torment that you've been adamant about training for

00:08:35.640 | and competing in for a while and you end up winning it,

00:08:38.600 | I mean, I feel like you're on that high

00:08:39.920 | for days at a time afterwards.

00:08:41.640 | - Heroin's gonna be better.

00:08:42.600 | - You think so?

00:08:43.440 | I'm gonna stick with no, but.

00:08:45.400 | - I'm not gonna suck dick to win.

00:08:47.360 | - You suck dick for heroin?

00:08:48.800 | Okay.

00:08:49.640 | (laughing)

00:08:51.400 | I guess that's a good point, yeah.

00:08:53.800 | - Well, you know, like,

00:08:54.640 | because you're coming from a little bit

00:08:56.360 | of a wrestling culture.

00:08:57.840 | One of the things I really love

00:08:59.040 | is at the end of the match, when they lose,

00:09:00.440 | they just, there's no, they just run off.

00:09:03.320 | They're like almost pissed off.

00:09:04.720 | It's like some mixture of anger

00:09:06.840 | and frustration at themselves.

00:09:08.480 | - I think sometimes that people like freak out on the mat.

00:09:11.800 | And I think that's just to show everybody,

00:09:13.920 | like they're acting like they cared a lot

00:09:16.560 | and really maybe they didn't work enough

00:09:19.360 | to get to where they wanted,

00:09:21.440 | to where they expected to be and they lost.

00:09:23.880 | And then they had this big boost of emotion

00:09:25.560 | like after their loss.

00:09:27.480 | But yeah, I mean,

00:09:29.400 | I think you just cry in the mirror

00:09:31.360 | and not to everybody else, you know.

00:09:33.160 | - Have you ever cried watching a movie?

00:09:36.640 | - I don't think I've ever cried, period.

00:09:37.920 | - Okay.

00:09:38.840 | - Have you cried watching a movie?

00:09:40.680 | - Not yet, not yet.

00:09:42.800 | - "The Notebook"?

00:09:43.800 | - I try to avoid those movies.

00:09:44.920 | Actually, I lie, actually.

00:09:46.720 | - "Titanic"?

00:09:47.560 | - The last part of a difficult wake up for me

00:09:50.400 | is I try to find a sad movie and at least cry.

00:09:53.240 | I bet a pound out.

00:09:54.840 | That really gets me over the line.

00:09:56.440 | Low energy cutting.

00:09:57.680 | - The tears.

00:09:58.920 | (laughing)

00:10:01.000 | There's other following liquids I could talk to you about,

00:10:03.680 | but let's just continue on.

00:10:06.520 | - Low energy.

00:10:07.360 | (laughing)

00:10:08.200 | - What about you, Nicky?

00:10:11.720 | Love of winning versus hate of losing.

00:10:13.640 | - I'm a very competitive person,

00:10:15.040 | so I for sure hate losing more than I like winning.

00:10:18.400 | I do think it's something that's kind of held me back

00:10:22.200 | over the past few years

00:10:24.280 | 'cause it makes it so that I'm not as active as I should be

00:10:28.480 | 'cause it's like I really hate that feeling of,

00:10:31.480 | you know, after a match that you just lost.

00:10:34.040 | So it kind of prevents me from competing,

00:10:35.840 | so it's definitely something I need to work past.

00:10:38.080 | - So like when you think about a competition,

00:10:39.920 | the possibility of losing,

00:10:41.160 | which is always there in competition,

00:10:42.800 | is the thing that like weighs heavy on you

00:10:44.920 | in the months and weeks leading up to it.

00:10:47.000 | - Yeah, my whole life, you know, my financial stability,

00:10:49.720 | everything depends on, you know,

00:10:51.440 | my ability to go out there and compete

00:10:53.080 | and my ability to teach.

00:10:54.880 | So, you know, it's a huge hit to the brand if you lose.

00:10:57.400 | So, you know, leading up to matches,

00:10:59.040 | that's definitely something that's in my mind.

00:11:01.360 | - I know, so you guys are like world-class athletes,

00:11:03.640 | but for me, more like a hobbyist competitor.

00:11:06.080 | I compete a lot.

00:11:07.840 | The thing I was, 'cause I really wanted to win,

00:11:11.000 | the thing I was probably most afraid of

00:11:12.400 | was not just losing, but like embarrassing myself.

00:11:16.000 | - Yeah.

00:11:16.840 | - Even actually winning by stalling.

00:11:19.760 | That was the thing I hated the most about myself

00:11:22.720 | in terms of crying in the mirror.

00:11:25.160 | Is like being too afraid to take risks

00:11:28.560 | after I'm up on two points or something.

00:11:30.840 | - I think you gotta, in competition,

00:11:32.080 | sometimes it's good to take the emotion out of it.

00:11:34.160 | It's too easy sometimes to like think about,

00:11:36.960 | oh, my girls in the crowd, my family's watching,

00:11:39.880 | like I wanna win 'cause they're there.

00:11:41.920 | But at the highest level, if you're emotional at all,

00:11:44.480 | no, that's affecting you.

00:11:45.720 | - Yeah, that's tough though.

00:11:49.180 | That's tough, especially like leading up to it,

00:11:52.680 | when you're on the mat maybe, but leading up to it.

00:11:55.120 | I think it's okay to be emotional prior.

00:11:57.160 | Like if we know ADCC is coming up and we have a big match,

00:12:00.520 | like definitely I'll go out in practice

00:12:03.200 | and I'll visualize, I'll put myself in that competition.

00:12:06.280 | That way when it's game time,

00:12:07.400 | it's like I've been there a thousand times already.

00:12:09.360 | - So not the actual competition, but even leading up to it,

00:12:11.360 | like stepping on the mat, like all the walk towards it,

00:12:14.320 | all that.

00:12:15.160 | - All that stuff.

00:12:16.000 | Like I'll do the same exact warmup for weeks on end

00:12:18.360 | until my competition day comes.

00:12:20.520 | That way, when I compete, I'm just like,

00:12:22.640 | oh, it's another Tuesday at practice.

00:12:25.240 | - All right, what about you, Craig?

00:12:26.800 | How do you prepare mentally for a tournament like ADCC?

00:12:29.680 | - I push it completely out of my mind.

00:12:31.760 | Don't even think about it.

00:12:33.260 | Try to avoid any visualization, any rituals, warmups,

00:12:37.760 | anything like that.

00:12:38.960 | Block it out until the last second.

00:12:40.760 | Yeah, try not to think about it.

00:12:42.320 | I just go to training to have fun, learn a bit.

00:12:44.960 | So I try to approach competition the exact same way.

00:12:47.460 | I don't warm up at training,

00:12:49.280 | do very little warmup for competition.

00:12:51.680 | - Uh-huh, and you just step on the mat?

00:12:54.120 | - Step on the mats.

00:12:54.960 | My philosophy is there's no warmups on the street.

00:12:57.360 | (laughing)

00:12:58.520 | - We're so vastly different.

00:12:59.760 | (laughing)

00:13:02.000 | All right, so you like legit don't warm up?

00:13:05.920 | - No, I probably should now I'm 31,

00:13:08.040 | but I would just like in the gym,

00:13:09.760 | take it easy the first round.

00:13:10.880 | You know, like if I look around the room

00:13:12.320 | and Nikki Ryan's there, I might go,

00:13:13.480 | all right, we'll have an easier first round today.

00:13:15.440 | Jump in.

00:13:16.280 | (laughing)

00:13:18.920 | - So even for like the most high stakes matches,

00:13:22.280 | you try to push it out?

00:13:23.720 | - Yeah, I didn't even think about it.

00:13:25.680 | - What about like all the social,

00:13:27.160 | like Instagram posts you have to do about that match?

00:13:29.320 | You just make a joke out of it and kinda--

00:13:31.240 | - Yeah, I mean, it's all kinda pretty silly.

00:13:34.240 | You know, we're just wrestling each other.

00:13:36.520 | We put the meaning into it,

00:13:37.720 | but to someone that doesn't follow the sport,

00:13:39.120 | it looks stupid.

00:13:40.280 | - Well, all of human existence is pretty silly.

00:13:42.740 | Like what are we doing?

00:13:43.960 | None of us really know what's going on.

00:13:45.760 | We kinda have sex to reproduce.

00:13:47.960 | We get hungry, we eat,

00:13:49.520 | and then we're all chasing money and cars

00:13:51.160 | and whatever the hell.

00:13:52.400 | In a capitalist society,

00:13:53.920 | or we worship a dictator in a authoritarian regime.

00:13:57.680 | Yeah, and then we get off on,

00:13:59.920 | we'll let power abuse us,

00:14:01.080 | and then we just murder others because we get off on it.

00:14:05.400 | Yeah, and then eventually all of us will die

00:14:08.520 | because the sun will run out of energy

00:14:11.280 | 'cause colonizing other planets is very difficult.

00:14:13.680 | So none of it matters.

00:14:15.040 | It's a good philosophy.

00:14:16.720 | It's pretty good.

00:14:17.920 | - That's exactly what I was thinking.

00:14:19.640 | - How does the sun run out of energy?

00:14:21.160 | (laughing)

00:14:22.720 | - You caught me there.

00:14:23.880 | It's burned out.

00:14:26.840 | It's a nuclear fusion engine that eventually burns out.

00:14:29.800 | - Like when you get tired of training.

00:14:31.320 | - Yeah. - It's never happened.

00:14:32.960 | I try to get tired.

00:14:33.800 | I just like, dude, it's not working.

00:14:35.640 | (laughing)

00:14:37.280 | - All right, cool.

00:14:38.500 | So you legit don't care about losing.

00:14:41.080 | It doesn't weigh heavy on you.

00:14:42.520 | - I try not to list,

00:14:43.960 | like if I win, I try to block out all the compliments,

00:14:46.800 | all the niceties and stuff.

00:14:47.980 | So I try to do the same with losing.

00:14:49.280 | It's happened.

00:14:50.160 | Move on to the next one.

00:14:51.520 | Don't dwell on it too much.

00:14:52.480 | - And sometimes make a joke out of it.

00:14:53.800 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:14:54.640 | Winning or losing, with the right joke,

00:14:56.960 | we can make money off of the events that transpired.

00:15:00.880 | That's what's most important.

00:15:02.480 | - Excellent, thank you.

00:15:03.360 | I have a bunch of your merch.

00:15:04.920 | - Oh, nice. - Thank you.

00:15:06.160 | - This one's the Jordan Burroughs ripoff.

00:15:08.200 | - All I see is silver.

00:15:12.680 | The way it pronounces Burroughs is very, very sexy.

00:15:15.960 | Okay.

00:15:17.640 | - I throw lines at people and I try to gauge their reaction.

00:15:21.120 | Sometimes I'll say something to Nikki

00:15:22.320 | and I'll be like, all right,

00:15:23.480 | that's probably crossing the line.

00:15:24.760 | You know what I mean?

00:15:25.600 | We'll tone it down for the public.

00:15:26.920 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:27.760 | So it's not just, right,

00:15:28.580 | you have to think, is this crossing the line?

00:15:30.080 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:15:30.920 | I get as close to it as possible.

00:15:33.200 | I feel like you can't really cross it.

00:15:34.040 | - And then cross it just a little bit.

00:15:38.280 | - Just a little bit, yeah.

00:15:39.200 | - Okay.

00:15:40.040 | Speaking of which,

00:15:41.960 | you said that I'm Switzerland in World War II

00:15:46.080 | since I'm friends with both you and Gordon and John.

00:15:48.920 | - Very rich country.

00:15:50.920 | - Are you a Hitler or a Stalin, by the way, in this analogy?

00:15:54.000 | Would you like to be Hitler or Stalin?

00:15:56.080 | And should you make a t-shirt out of it?

00:15:58.000 | - I mean, a Nazi t-shirt,

00:15:59.600 | I don't know how well that sells.

00:16:01.040 | - I think it would, you know,

00:16:02.440 | I think let's brainstorm on this one offline.

00:16:05.760 | I think since Hitler lost,

00:16:08.840 | so he got second place in World War II.

00:16:10.520 | - That's true, that's true.

00:16:11.360 | - I think that makes you Hitler.

00:16:12.880 | Anyway, to the degree that you can,

00:16:16.840 | can you tell the story of how,

00:16:19.080 | the time you've had with the Donahoe Death Squad

00:16:21.640 | and why you split up?

00:16:23.480 | - I competed against Gordon for ADCC and EBI in 2017.

00:16:28.480 | And I remember I competed against him at ADCC

00:16:32.600 | and then we had the EBI event.

00:16:35.280 | And then I had a Kassai.

00:16:37.920 | I used to compete all the time, every week.

00:16:40.200 | I wouldn't even do the preparation or anything.

00:16:42.520 | I'd just be like trying to do seminars, make money

00:16:44.680 | and then jump in and compete.

00:16:45.800 | I remember I showed up to Kassai after I faced him twice

00:16:48.760 | and there were like four locker rooms

00:16:49.960 | and they put me with all the DDS guys.

00:16:52.760 | It was just me and all of DDS.

00:16:54.880 | And I think we competed the weekend before.

00:16:58.320 | So I thought it was gonna be super awkward,

00:16:59.520 | but it was actually pretty chill.

00:17:01.800 | And the Kassai was in New York

00:17:03.680 | and they suggested to come train that week.

00:17:06.480 | So I came trained, hung out with them a bit.

00:17:09.840 | Ultimately the goal was to move to America

00:17:12.880 | and join a bigger team

00:17:13.720 | just 'cause that flight to Australia is death.

00:17:17.040 | Australia is so far away from everywhere.

00:17:19.400 | It's kind of like not realistic to base yourself

00:17:22.480 | in Australia when all the tournaments are in America.

00:17:25.280 | And then I went and trained with the guys

00:17:26.960 | and they just had a massively deep talent pool in that room.

00:17:31.960 | Like show up to like a meant to be 7 a.m.

00:17:34.880 | actual 8 a.m. class on Brazilian time.

00:17:38.160 | And there'd be like a hundred people in there

00:17:39.560 | maybe I don't know how many black belts,

00:17:41.600 | but a ton of elite guys.

00:17:42.840 | And I was coming from Australia,

00:17:44.440 | training with Lachlan Giles,

00:17:46.720 | but really that room was pretty shallow.

00:17:48.520 | And like most people had serious jobs and stuff.

00:17:51.200 | So it was like basically me just training with Lachlan,

00:17:53.520 | maybe a couple of other guys,

00:17:54.920 | and then to go to New York and have access

00:17:57.440 | to a wide array of training partners

00:18:00.440 | and guys that are training twice each day.

00:18:03.000 | I feel like that's what you really need.

00:18:04.400 | You need people that can train as much as you are.

00:18:07.120 | - You get humbled.

00:18:08.560 | - Humble. - You get humbled

00:18:09.400 | in that room at first.

00:18:10.240 | - For sure, 'cause my style at the time

00:18:11.680 | was basically a rip off version of what they were doing.

00:18:15.720 | Leg locks came in.

00:18:16.600 | I remember just watching Eddie Cummings nonstop

00:18:19.920 | and just seeing this guy rip people's legs off.

00:18:22.160 | And I was like, you know what?

00:18:23.160 | That's probably a good move.

00:18:25.080 | You know, that looks like an easier path to victory

00:18:28.200 | than trying to beat these guys

00:18:29.720 | at what they're good at already.

00:18:31.560 | My philosophy at the time was

00:18:34.000 | if it's bothering old Brazilians,

00:18:36.440 | it's bothering them for a reason.

00:18:38.320 | It's probably effective.

00:18:39.800 | And that's the path I took to sort of

00:18:41.800 | try to rip off their moves.

00:18:43.800 | And then obviously to go into that room,

00:18:45.440 | try to do them to them,

00:18:47.360 | it's gonna be a bit more difficult.

00:18:49.080 | - All right, so that's how it started.

00:18:52.440 | How did you end up here?

00:18:55.520 | - How do we end up here?

00:18:56.600 | - We're in Austin, Texas.

00:18:58.080 | - I mean, I like to think of Puerto Rico as apocalypse now.

00:19:03.080 | John Danaher as Colonel Kurtz.

00:19:06.440 | Things got very weird in the jungle

00:19:08.840 | and the teams went in two different directions.

00:19:11.880 | But honestly, I mean, it's not really my story to tell.

00:19:15.120 | I had some issues with some of those people.

00:19:17.040 | At the time of the split,

00:19:18.360 | I got along very well with John.

00:19:20.400 | I feel like me and him connected very well.

00:19:22.320 | I don't know why that was.

00:19:24.040 | Maybe it was just 'cause he missed home.

00:19:26.240 | He missed a familiar accent,

00:19:27.360 | Australian, New Zealand accent.

00:19:28.920 | But I mean, I basically followed Nicky,

00:19:33.280 | left with Nicky,

00:19:34.560 | sort of that core group of guys left with Nicky.

00:19:37.760 | And I mean, I just backed,

00:19:39.200 | there was personal problems

00:19:40.040 | and I just backed Nicky, basically.

00:19:41.880 | - Got it.

00:19:42.760 | Just sticking on you for a bit.

00:19:44.920 | Is there a part of you that finds it heartbreaking

00:19:48.000 | that DDS split up?

00:19:49.680 | This part of you miss working with John and everybody?

00:19:52.720 | Now, can you steal me on the case for that?

00:19:54.640 | - I mean, I miss certain aspects of it,

00:19:57.280 | but I also do prefer the freedom of being apart from it.

00:20:00.400 | It's obviously a very strict regime under John Danaher.

00:20:04.840 | You know, obviously there's parts of it I miss.

00:20:06.840 | The parts the public doesn't see of John,

00:20:09.720 | the behind the scenes banter,

00:20:11.040 | I feel like he's very conscious

00:20:12.680 | of the image he portrays to the world.

00:20:15.200 | But basically, closed doors,

00:20:17.360 | he's always making jokes,

00:20:18.440 | always finding, I guess,

00:20:19.320 | more in line with the Australian Kiwi sort of culture.

00:20:23.920 | But you don't really see that in the public eye.

00:20:26.200 | So that perspective,

00:20:27.720 | I do miss that relationship with John.

00:20:30.040 | In terms of setting aside personal differences,

00:20:32.720 | Gordon was a good training partner,

00:20:35.840 | definitely a good training partner to train with.

00:20:38.640 | But obviously the negative things

00:20:40.840 | we can't really talk about outweighed all of those things.

00:20:44.120 | And we obviously had to make a decision to leave.

00:20:47.520 | - The things that happened in the jungle.

00:20:49.560 | - The things that happened in the jungle.

00:20:50.920 | - Should never be spoken of.

00:20:52.120 | - That I personally cannot speak of.

00:20:54.800 | Yeah, but obviously I do miss certain aspects.

00:20:56.400 | Like, I mean, nothing's all bad,

00:20:58.240 | nothing's all good, you know?

00:21:00.240 | - Yeah, this goes back to your,

00:21:01.360 | like, everything we're doing is silly.

00:21:04.520 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:21:05.360 | That's why I don't get people take it so serious,

00:21:07.040 | martial arts so serious.

00:21:08.080 | It's just pretty stupid, really.

00:21:11.280 | Especially in the Gi, it looks just, it looks bad.

00:21:14.200 | And then I see--

00:21:15.040 | - I mean, it's pretty silly with and without the Gi.

00:21:17.080 | It's just a bunch of apes.

00:21:18.720 | - What's silly about no Gi,

00:21:20.200 | and what's silly about the Gi,

00:21:21.320 | and just mixed and matched bottoms there,

00:21:23.080 | you know what I mean?

00:21:24.120 | - Wait, which one?

00:21:24.960 | - Sambo, yeah.

00:21:26.160 | - I see what you're doing.

00:21:27.960 | Brother, you come to my house and offend my people.

00:21:32.960 | All right.

00:21:35.360 | We're gonna go to every dark place, apparently.

00:21:41.560 | Nick, how did you get with DDS?

00:21:43.560 | Like, what was that journey like?

00:21:44.880 | Is there, try to see if there's things

00:21:48.000 | that you remember fondly

00:21:49.640 | that you've gotten from the experience.

00:21:52.200 | - All right, so the way I started training with DDS,

00:21:56.120 | initially I was training for like,

00:21:59.360 | well, initially I was a bouncer, right?

00:22:02.680 | I dropped out of college

00:22:03.880 | to pursue this fitness modeling career.

00:22:06.120 | I ended up signing with Wilhelmina Models up in New York,

00:22:08.760 | and I was like, just trying to get in better shape.

00:22:10.880 | And while I was bouncing,

00:22:11.720 | kind of the talk of like, you know,

00:22:13.120 | who's tougher came up between the wrestlers

00:22:15.600 | and a few of the bouncers that train Jiu-Jitsu.

00:22:18.040 | And, you know, they convinced me to go to a practice,

00:22:20.480 | and I went to my first practice over there.

00:22:23.400 | And for the most part,

00:22:25.320 | I just controlled everybody, got on top of them,

00:22:27.160 | was able to avoid like, kind of like, you know,

00:22:29.360 | shitty submissions, 'cause I had an awareness of the sport,

00:22:32.960 | and, you know, I'm a fan of fighting and whatnot.

00:22:35.080 | So, you know, I kind of understood it pretty well.

00:22:38.240 | And then soon after that, I joined a school,

00:22:40.960 | and my second week of Jiu-Jitsu,

00:22:42.800 | I started competing, had pretty good success.

00:22:45.960 | You know, I was like subbing a few black belts

00:22:48.520 | and beating everybody like, you know,

00:22:49.840 | pretty decisively with points and stuff.

00:22:52.000 | And about three months into training locally,

00:22:54.880 | I got connected with Gordon Ryan and John Danaher

00:22:58.280 | up in New York, and I started,

00:23:00.120 | I committed to, you know, make the drive up there

00:23:02.120 | as many days as I could.

00:23:03.280 | At the time, I lived in South Jersey,

00:23:05.760 | and it was about a two and a half hour,

00:23:07.400 | three hour drive without traffic to New York.

00:23:10.080 | - Where in South Jersey?

00:23:11.200 | - Gloucester County, Clayton, New Jersey specifically,

00:23:14.600 | but Gloucester County.

00:23:15.880 | Yeah, so it was about 130 miles,

00:23:18.680 | and without traffic, you know, about two and a half hours

00:23:21.400 | or so, but on the way back, man,

00:23:23.040 | it'd be three plus sometimes, you know,

00:23:24.560 | when you're catching that rush hour.

00:23:25.720 | - What year was this, do you remember?

00:23:26.880 | - This was in 2018. - South Jersey for a bit.

00:23:28.760 | I forget how young you are.

00:23:30.640 | - Yeah. - I was there before,

00:23:32.880 | before all that, all right, cool.

00:23:34.760 | Anyway, you're doing the long drive, and then what?

00:23:37.680 | - Yeah, doing the long drive, and then, you know,

00:23:39.880 | once I won ADCC trials, I was able to make a couple bucks,

00:23:42.640 | and then, you know, I got my silver medal at ADCC,

00:23:44.880 | and I was able to afford to live up there in New York

00:23:47.480 | in North Jersey area.

00:23:49.120 | So I lived up there, trained there full-time every day,

00:23:51.360 | and, you know, it was kind of sucked with the team

00:23:53.400 | throughout the turbulent times,

00:23:55.280 | and found ourself in Austin.

00:23:57.360 | - In the jungle. - In the jungle, yeah.

00:23:58.920 | - One of the things we shall not speak of.

00:24:00.760 | (laughing)

00:24:03.000 | What are the things that you remember

00:24:07.920 | that you've learned from John Donaher

00:24:09.720 | from your time you spent with him?

00:24:10.760 | - Yeah, I mean, I definitely learned a ton from John

00:24:13.480 | and the team as a whole.

00:24:15.000 | Like, you know, you have to be the guy

00:24:18.240 | that asks questions in that type of environment, right?

00:24:21.200 | 'Cause you're not gonna get singled out

00:24:23.760 | to be that specific star or the best guy in the room

00:24:27.680 | when you have all these other stud athletes.

00:24:29.640 | So I really had to seek out

00:24:31.000 | and figure out the kind of questions that I needed to ask.

00:24:34.160 | And once I became a bit more verbal with my training,

00:24:37.360 | and, you know, I'm expressing all my curiosities

00:24:41.680 | about grappling to these guys,

00:24:43.120 | definitely helped boost my technique

00:24:45.440 | and my career as a whole.

00:24:46.480 | - Yeah, did you understand what kind of stuff,

00:24:48.440 | like, technically, you wanna get good at,

00:24:50.040 | what fits your body, what would be good for you,

00:24:53.040 | what are your weaknesses and all that?

00:24:54.960 | - So initially, when I started grappling,

00:24:56.840 | I had an innate ability to just get to opponent's back.

00:25:00.200 | So I was like, all right, I'm good at getting to the back,

00:25:02.800 | let me perfect controlling the back

00:25:05.320 | and then submitting opponent via rear naked choke.

00:25:08.080 | And then besides that, I really focused on leg lock defense.

00:25:11.440 | And then eventually came the body lock pass

00:25:13.240 | where, you know, I'm really good at body lock pass

00:25:16.080 | on my opponents now.

00:25:17.440 | And yeah, it just takes quite a long time

00:25:19.800 | 'cause you have to find different sequences

00:25:22.200 | and then there's always these,

00:25:24.320 | an abundance of opportunities that your opponent gets

00:25:26.720 | from these specific sequences.

00:25:28.000 | So it takes a while.

00:25:29.200 | - Is there part of you that finds the fact

00:25:33.480 | that DGS split up heartbreaking?

00:25:35.560 | - I definitely, you know, having one person to go to

00:25:40.600 | that runs practice every day, that's, you know, consistent,

00:25:43.600 | it was definitely a gift,

00:25:47.160 | but now I'm also gifted with many, many other partners.

00:25:50.200 | I have Nikki Ryan, you know, Craig Jones.

00:25:52.800 | (all laughing)

00:25:55.400 | We have Ethan, Crelacy, Damian Anderson.

00:26:00.080 | So a full team of knowledgeable athletes

00:26:02.360 | that I can continue to go to with multiple questions,

00:26:05.320 | but yeah, definitely it took me some time to adjust

00:26:09.760 | to training or to learning from, you know,

00:26:12.520 | specifically my team and not just one person.

00:26:16.560 | - We should mention for people just listening,

00:26:18.720 | 'cause you can't visually see

00:26:19.800 | that Nikki Ryan is currently terrified

00:26:22.160 | and Craig Jones is currently enjoying

00:26:25.520 | the fact that he's terrified.

00:26:27.200 | But anyway, can you talk about your,

00:26:29.760 | Nikki, can you talk about your time with DDS?

00:26:31.960 | - I started training when I was like around 13.

00:26:35.000 | You know, my brother Gordon had started prior to me

00:26:37.800 | and I really just went into training

00:26:40.120 | just as like a means to exercise and lose weight

00:26:42.960 | at the beginning 'cause I was pretty fat as a kid.

00:26:45.480 | So I went to the first class, loved it,

00:26:47.960 | and then just started training every day

00:26:49.640 | at Gary's Gym, Brunswick.

00:26:51.960 | And then during the summer when I'd get off from school,

00:26:55.120 | they would take me up to New York to train under John.

00:26:58.480 | And you know, I just absolutely loved it.

00:27:00.640 | I knew what I wanted to do with my life at a young age.

00:27:02.960 | So I ended up dropping out of school

00:27:04.480 | actually after my freshman year in high school.

00:27:07.440 | So yeah, 15, I ended up dropping out

00:27:09.560 | and just pursuing jiu-jitsu full-time,

00:27:11.960 | you know, training every day up in the blue basement.

00:27:14.440 | - Like what aspects of jiu-jitsu made you know

00:27:18.560 | that this is the thing for you?

00:27:20.240 | - It was just something I just enjoyed being,

00:27:22.360 | you know, like on the mats every day.

00:27:23.840 | I love that there's, you know,

00:27:24.760 | a problem solving aspect to it.

00:27:27.480 | So it's, you know, it's mentally challenging,

00:27:28.960 | it's physically challenging, helps me get in shape.

00:27:31.400 | So I just, yeah, right off the bat, I knew I loved it.

00:27:34.880 | - Okay, so then we'll go to the jungle.

00:27:37.720 | What happened in the jungle?

00:27:39.040 | (both laughing)

00:27:40.000 | And in general, like...

00:27:42.320 | (both laughing)

00:27:44.520 | I like this, I like this.

00:27:45.360 | This is like this like shroud of mystery

00:27:48.800 | that she'll never be penetrated,

00:27:50.880 | that she'll never be like--

00:27:52.200 | - We've got a book deal, it's coming one day.

00:27:53.600 | - A book deal?

00:27:54.640 | - Obviously he left high school, he's not riding it.

00:27:56.440 | (both laughing)

00:27:59.200 | - Okay, I'll do the Russian translation.

00:28:01.560 | (both laughing)

00:28:03.120 | Okay, so what are things that you enjoyed

00:28:08.120 | that you remember from working with John Donner?

00:28:10.280 | - Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously he's considered

00:28:12.880 | one of the best coaches in the world.

00:28:15.440 | You know, very charismatic guy when you see him in person.

00:28:18.560 | You know, I pretty much was, you know,

00:28:20.200 | kind of raised in the DDS, you know,

00:28:22.160 | that's where I spent the majority of my time every day.

00:28:25.520 | So I obviously had very deep connections, you know,

00:28:27.360 | with John, my brother, Gary, you know,

00:28:30.840 | even Eddie Cummings and stuff back then.

00:28:33.160 | So obviously I miss interacting with those guys every day.

00:28:35.600 | And, you know, it's like they said,

00:28:37.160 | it's good to have somebody to kind of

00:28:38.720 | crack the whip at you every day.

00:28:40.520 | And John was very good at that.

00:28:42.520 | - When you're like younger in your teenage years,

00:28:44.440 | you can kind of, you like have to get humbled, right?

00:28:47.040 | There's like a process to that.

00:28:48.560 | - Yeah, for sure.

00:28:49.400 | - And it's a pretty good room to get humbled in, I guess.

00:28:51.760 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:28:52.600 | I mean, I started training with them

00:28:55.520 | just when like everybody started to break out.

00:28:57.560 | Gary was like the biggest name at the time,

00:28:59.880 | just 'cause he had won ADCC trials already.

00:29:01.960 | And he had a crazy match with Kron,

00:29:04.600 | had Kron Gracie at ADCC.

00:29:07.400 | But Eddie was just starting to break out.

00:29:09.360 | Gordon just started winning EBI.

00:29:10.920 | So I started training under John, you know,

00:29:13.160 | right when everything was exploding.

00:29:16.120 | - What are the good things about life,

00:29:18.720 | about jiu-jitsu you learned from your brother?

00:29:20.760 | - Both me and my brother never really wanted to,

00:29:23.440 | you know, work a full-time job

00:29:24.840 | doing something that we hate.

00:29:26.360 | And he was always, you know, a very confident person.

00:29:29.160 | So he just went, you know, fully started pursuing jiu-jitsu.

00:29:33.880 | So I'm very happy that, you know, he did that.

00:29:35.760 | And I ended up following in his footsteps.

00:29:37.380 | Because you can ask these guys,

00:29:38.800 | I'm a lazy sack of shit outside of the mat.

00:29:43.800 | So that's definitely one thing that I'm very grateful for.

00:29:48.040 | - That he paved the way, like you can make money

00:29:50.520 | doing the stuff you love.

00:29:51.560 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:29:52.400 | And he was a big reason, you know,

00:29:53.840 | why my parents eventually let me drop out of school.

00:29:56.960 | Because, you know, when they were coming up,

00:29:58.880 | there was no money in the sport.

00:30:00.840 | It was very hard to make a full living.

00:30:02.720 | Like if you wanted to actually make a living,

00:30:04.760 | you'd eventually have to transfer to MMA.

00:30:06.960 | And I feel like Gordon and Gary and those guys

00:30:09.800 | were, you know, some of the first people

00:30:11.100 | to make a very good living off of just jiu-jitsu.

00:30:14.320 | - At this party, you find it heartbreaking

00:30:17.320 | that you've split up from DDS,

00:30:20.200 | but also from your brother in terms of spending time

00:30:22.960 | in the mat every day.

00:30:24.160 | - Yeah, for sure.

00:30:24.980 | You know, I mean, growing up, you know,

00:30:26.440 | obviously he's my big brother.

00:30:27.820 | I looked up to him a lot.

00:30:29.520 | So I definitely, like I said,

00:30:30.800 | I miss interacting with those guys.

00:30:32.480 | I was pretty much raised, you know, in that blue basement,

00:30:34.920 | you know, that John was like, you know,

00:30:36.800 | a father figure to me.

00:30:38.040 | So I definitely, you know, miss seeing those guys every day.

00:30:42.520 | - Do you have animosity towards Gordon

00:30:44.480 | and does he have animosity toward you?

00:30:46.720 | And what is the source of that?

00:30:49.760 | And do you think you'll ever be able to forgive each other?

00:30:53.120 | - Definitely initially during the initial split,

00:30:57.600 | we definitely hated each other at the beginning,

00:31:00.800 | but it's definitely started to calm down.

00:31:03.320 | Actually just prior to, you know,

00:31:05.280 | all this social media drama that's going on currently,

00:31:08.320 | he had reached out to me and that was literally like

00:31:12.840 | the first time that we have actually talked

00:31:15.200 | since the split happened.

00:31:17.880 | So we didn't talk to each other for,

00:31:19.200 | what is it now, like almost two years.

00:31:21.160 | And that was the first time that, you know,

00:31:24.000 | we interacted again and overall, you know,

00:31:27.520 | he wasn't aggressive towards me.

00:31:29.560 | I wasn't aggressive towards him.

00:31:31.040 | We were cracking some jokes.

00:31:32.160 | So hopefully the animosity is going down.

00:31:35.600 | - There's this a godfather quote that wrote down,

00:31:40.200 | I recently rewatched it from the Don,

00:31:44.440 | from Don Corleone, Vito Corleone,

00:31:46.480 | "The strength of a family, like the strength of an army

00:31:49.200 | lies in its loyalty to each other."

00:31:51.160 | Is there some aspect of family that you miss?

00:31:54.600 | Of the blood that kind of connects you,

00:31:56.920 | that you can count on?

00:31:58.240 | - Yeah, my parents, you know, they both raised us that,

00:32:00.760 | you know, like family is everything.

00:32:02.160 | You never, you know, betray your family

00:32:04.160 | or anything like that.

00:32:05.680 | So I definitely, you know, miss him from time to time.

00:32:08.960 | - Okay, imagine you're like 40 years from now,

00:32:12.480 | sitting on a porch with a shotgun, drinking whiskey,

00:32:16.160 | looking over like all the land you've conquered.

00:32:19.000 | Looking back to this moment,

00:32:21.600 | is the reason you split up a bullshit reason?

00:32:24.400 | Or is it a good reason?

00:32:25.400 | From the perspective of the king

00:32:26.960 | who has now conquered the lands,

00:32:28.960 | have proven himself, have done everything.

00:32:31.440 | - I think it was definitely like a justifiable reason

00:32:34.720 | for the team splitting.

00:32:36.160 | Like it just, with the way things were going,

00:32:38.200 | it just was not gonna work with, you know,

00:32:40.240 | all of us in the same room together.

00:32:42.240 | It started, you know, affecting training,

00:32:44.280 | people didn't feel comfortable and things.

00:32:46.000 | So I definitely think that it was a justifiable reason

00:32:48.560 | to split.

00:32:49.880 | - The things that happened in the jungle.

00:32:51.920 | - Yeah.

00:32:52.760 | - To be told about in the book.

00:32:54.920 | Is it gonna be an audio book or is it just gonna be,

00:32:58.000 | who's gonna voice it?

00:32:59.280 | - Might be a play.

00:33:00.200 | - A musical?

00:33:02.240 | - Yeah, a musical.

00:33:03.080 | - On Broadway.

00:33:03.920 | How's your singing voice?

00:33:06.640 | - Mine's not so good, but Nicky has a beautiful voice.

00:33:08.600 | - Does he?

00:33:09.440 | Of an angel?

00:33:10.280 | I bet.

00:33:11.280 | Okay.

00:33:13.840 | Speaking of the social media drama,

00:33:16.240 | I should mention that I've talked recently

00:33:19.080 | to Gordon a bunch.

00:33:20.240 | I've talked to him about talking to you guys

00:33:23.320 | and he's had nothing but really nice things to say

00:33:26.080 | about you, Nicky Ryan.

00:33:27.920 | And he has had nothing but bad things.

00:33:30.840 | - What was some of the things?

00:33:32.440 | (laughing)

00:33:34.680 | - Well, let's just go to the social media first.

00:33:39.840 | (laughing)

00:33:41.520 | 'Cause the social media stuff that he said publicly

00:33:44.880 | is just like a warmup.

00:33:46.480 | It's like a foreplay, I guess.

00:33:49.040 | So Gordon sent you, Nicky Ryan, flowers for Valentine's Day

00:33:55.240 | posting on Instagram, quote, "I've been fucking him

00:33:57.840 | "in every round and competition since we met in 2018.

00:34:02.400 | "The least I can do is buy him flowers."

00:34:04.760 | - We didn't get the flowers.

00:34:07.000 | (laughing)

00:34:07.840 | - Yeah, that was the question.

00:34:09.680 | Did you get the flowers?

00:34:10.720 | You never got the flowers?

00:34:11.560 | - He sent it to the wrong address.

00:34:13.080 | - He did?

00:34:13.920 | - Yeah.

00:34:14.760 | - Where do you think he sent it?

00:34:15.760 | - It was close, but it was wrong.

00:34:17.400 | - Did you appreciate the romantic gesture?

00:34:19.720 | - I did, I was looking forward to the flowers

00:34:21.680 | and potentially chocolates in there.

00:34:24.000 | But it was a bit of a letdown.

00:34:26.160 | - Can you describe your recent match against Gordon,

00:34:28.640 | the EBI match?

00:34:29.760 | - Okay, so EBI match on UFC Fight Pass

00:34:32.200 | was a 20 minute match.

00:34:33.840 | And immediately, match starts, I pull guard,

00:34:39.440 | and then I stand up, he pulls guard.

00:34:41.920 | And we have this kind of like back and forth

00:34:43.920 | where he's trying to dig for underhooks,

00:34:45.320 | trying to get on top of me,

00:34:46.280 | and he can't really find success.

00:34:48.120 | And then in the midst of me trying to work

00:34:51.800 | my body lock pass, Gordon's able to underhook a leg

00:34:54.640 | and we end up in a leg entanglement.

00:34:57.120 | And then I'm able to transfer that leg entanglement

00:34:59.280 | to a 50/50 position, still in the leg entanglement.

00:35:03.520 | From that 50/50 position, I'm able to separate his feet

00:35:06.960 | and actually get a few pops.

00:35:08.640 | And he actually said I broke his foot in that exchange.

00:35:11.880 | - With a toe hold.

00:35:12.720 | - With a toe hold, yep.

00:35:13.560 | And after that, we had a bit more,

00:35:18.560 | I was just working on top positions,

00:35:21.280 | trying to get my body lock, time runs out,

00:35:23.240 | and we go to overtime.

00:35:24.520 | And overtime--

00:35:25.360 | - Can you hold on a second?

00:35:26.440 | What does it mean to break a leg?

00:35:28.120 | I was very confused about, is this like a expression?

00:35:31.840 | Or what do you mean, which part breaks in a toe hold?

00:35:35.400 | - Okay, so in a toe hold,

00:35:37.200 | there's a few different grades of it.

00:35:39.000 | Like you could get a few pops

00:35:40.880 | and have some walking issues.

00:35:43.720 | And people consider that a break.

00:35:45.440 | And then you could break it fully

00:35:46.640 | and have your foot be like a limp noodle.

00:35:49.440 | I think what goes to Achilles,

00:35:51.160 | what is it, front of the Achilles or something?

00:35:52.560 | - I mean, probably the ligaments.

00:35:54.080 | I mean, it's funny, like a lot of people say

00:35:56.040 | they broke something, but like to me,

00:35:57.800 | you break bones, you tear ligaments.

00:35:59.840 | So I would imagine you probably had a grade three tear.

00:36:02.600 | - Grade three.

00:36:04.360 | - How hard do you think is it to,

00:36:05.600 | I always wondered that with like a straight foot lock,

00:36:08.800 | how hard is it to break the shin

00:36:10.160 | or like the actual bones versus to tear stuff?

00:36:12.600 | - Depends how many steroids they're on.

00:36:14.360 | And obviously how much you're on.

00:36:17.120 | - You're one of the few guys

00:36:17.960 | that have actually broken bones in competition.

00:36:21.360 | - Yeah, have I?

00:36:22.680 | - Oh yeah, Vinny.

00:36:23.520 | - A couple, yeah.

00:36:24.520 | - Which bone did you break?

00:36:26.600 | - Spiral fracture of the fibula.

00:36:28.520 | Very specific.

00:36:31.520 | - A lot of power.

00:36:32.360 | (laughing)

00:36:33.200 | - Is it like a twist thing?

00:36:34.020 | How did you break it?

00:36:34.860 | - Oh, it was a heel hook.

00:36:35.700 | Vinny always used to say heel hooks don't work,

00:36:37.600 | leg locks don't work.

00:36:39.080 | But unfortunately, age gets the best of all of us.

00:36:42.320 | I think he had some mileage on those ligaments.

00:36:44.800 | - Yeah.

00:36:45.640 | - And the bone, I guess, yeah.

00:36:46.480 | - So it's actually what, the bone?

00:36:48.600 | - Yeah, his ankle disconnected from the tibia

00:36:51.320 | and the fibula, but the fibula definitely

00:36:53.480 | snapped pretty bad there.

00:36:54.800 | - That's fascinating.

00:36:56.680 | The dynamics of that.

00:36:57.680 | Okay, anyway, it went into overtime.

00:36:59.360 | What happened in overtime?

00:37:00.280 | - Okay, I'll have an overtime.

00:37:02.240 | Let's see, trying to hang.

00:37:03.920 | Oh, okay, I go defense first.

00:37:06.640 | Whistle blows, I'm able to escape in like 17 seconds.

00:37:10.680 | And then immediately after I go on his back

00:37:13.080 | and he gets out in exactly 17 seconds.

00:37:15.960 | I'm like, shit, all right, I thought I had a good start.

00:37:18.440 | And then he gets on my back right after that.

00:37:22.400 | And he's able to ride me out

00:37:23.960 | for pretty much the entire round.

00:37:26.160 | After that, I go back on his back.

00:37:28.640 | He escapes in maybe like a minute and some change.

00:37:31.880 | I think where I went wrong in the overtime

00:37:33.680 | is I should have been less adamant

00:37:36.480 | about chasing the submission

00:37:38.040 | and more aware of collecting time.

00:37:40.720 | If I kind of diverted my attention

00:37:42.720 | towards acquiring time on the clock,

00:37:45.440 | it would have been more in my favor.

00:37:47.360 | But yeah, at the end of my overtime round,

00:37:50.520 | I'm able to lock up a renegade choke over the face,

00:37:53.440 | but there just wasn't enough time to fully finish.

00:37:55.840 | I got a few seconds of squeeze in there.

00:37:57.680 | I didn't have enough time to adjust.

00:37:59.640 | - Do you think if you're on steroids,

00:38:03.000 | you would have finished the choke?

00:38:05.120 | - I mean, for sure, for sure.

00:38:06.760 | - That's what I thought too.

00:38:07.600 | - If you're on gear,

00:38:08.440 | you're changing the biology of your body.

00:38:11.600 | You're adjusting your DNA.

00:38:13.520 | For sure, if I adjust in my DNA,

00:38:15.360 | I mean, it's a finish, easy finish.

00:38:17.640 | - So you're implying you're a natural athlete is what you say.

00:38:19.680 | - Oh, I'm definitely a natural athlete, yeah.

00:38:22.040 | Heavy implication.

00:38:23.120 | (laughing)

00:38:25.360 | - Okay, so for people who don't know,

00:38:28.000 | the EBI rules, it's an interesting rule structure

00:38:31.200 | where the overtime, you put yourself

00:38:33.960 | in the worst possible position,

00:38:35.920 | and the task is to escape,

00:38:37.320 | and then the other person gets the same thing.

00:38:39.280 | What do you guys think about that rule set?

00:38:41.800 | - I like it just because, first of all,

00:38:45.480 | I don't like the idea of having to put somebody on my back,

00:38:48.800 | but I do like the definitive answer in the match.

00:38:52.040 | Like either you escaped in time or you got ridden out.

00:38:55.520 | So the absolutely, like you get to define a winner,

00:38:58.960 | that's great.

00:38:59.800 | I'd much rather have that than a close decision

00:39:01.880 | and it kind of goes the other way.

00:39:03.720 | - What about you?

00:39:04.560 | - I mean, honestly, there's all the different rules.

00:39:07.160 | When I look at the rule sets,

00:39:08.120 | I just try to think of what rule set

00:39:10.040 | I could beat that individual in.

00:39:11.680 | And I sort of gear myself towards that.

00:39:13.800 | That's really the strategy there.

00:39:16.080 | I think there's some guys that stall a lot,

00:39:19.640 | that you would love to have EBI overtime with at the end.

00:39:22.000 | They're stalling until they have to give us a good position.

00:39:25.280 | But then there's some guys

00:39:26.120 | that are so good in those positions,

00:39:27.280 | I'm like, "Oh, maybe we just do a regular match."

00:39:30.140 | - What are the rules in the streets?

00:39:32.160 | - The streets?

00:39:33.000 | No time limit.

00:39:34.160 | - Yeah, that's one of it.

00:39:35.840 | There's also like concrete and cars and stuff.

00:39:38.360 | - Biting.

00:39:39.480 | - Biting, yeah.

00:39:40.640 | - Poking.

00:39:41.480 | Yeah, so you don't like that rule set?

00:39:45.440 | Are there some people you would prefer

00:39:46.760 | in the street as a rule set?

00:39:48.920 | - Me, probably not.

00:39:50.840 | (laughing)

00:39:53.800 | I don't know though, EBI.

00:39:55.000 | I mean, it's tricky.

00:39:55.840 | It depends on the opponent,

00:39:56.920 | which rule set I'd wanna do.

00:39:59.080 | - Wow, what about you, Nicker?

00:39:59.920 | What do you think about the rule set of EBI?

00:40:01.960 | - Yes, I think EBI is very good

00:40:04.400 | from a spectator point of view.

00:40:06.200 | People find it very entertaining to watch

00:40:09.600 | 'cause people wanna see submissions

00:40:11.680 | and you're putting the athletes in a position

00:40:14.960 | where you have the highest percentage submission

00:40:17.640 | in the sport, so obviously you're gonna get

00:40:19.480 | a lot of submissions.

00:40:20.520 | My issue with it is it is a rule set

00:40:23.880 | that allows somebody that's overall worse at jiu-jitsu

00:40:27.280 | to win a match.

00:40:28.680 | A guy can go out there and just stall

00:40:30.720 | and just get completely dominated

00:40:32.520 | for the entirety of regulation

00:40:34.440 | and then he gets to start on the guy's back.

00:40:36.040 | So that's my one issue with it.

00:40:39.000 | - But also, I mean, it's interesting to see

00:40:41.680 | the best people in the world have to be put

00:40:44.960 | in a really bad position to see how good their escapes are,

00:40:48.240 | for example.

00:40:49.240 | It's interesting, but it doesn't feel realistic.

00:40:52.600 | It's a fun thing to watch,

00:40:54.800 | but it doesn't feel like the real fight.

00:40:59.160 | It feels weird.

00:41:00.760 | - I'll claim it if I start an overtime on someone

00:41:02.960 | and finish him, I'll claim it,

00:41:04.040 | but if they submit me an overtime, I'm like,

00:41:05.440 | "Awesome, it's not a real submission."

00:41:07.560 | - It's good.

00:41:08.920 | (laughing)

00:41:09.920 | The issue is people stalling to just win the overtime.

00:41:12.960 | So where you got this guy,

00:41:13.920 | his whole training camp is just not get subbed

00:41:16.440 | and win the overtime.

00:41:17.880 | It's a bit boring.

00:41:19.560 | - By the way, I have a rose behind you.

00:41:22.520 | Somebody gave me a Valentine's flower.

00:41:24.280 | So if you missed the one from Gordon, I got one for you.

00:41:27.080 | - Well, I'd appreciate that.

00:41:28.200 | Thank you.

00:41:29.040 | (laughing)

00:41:29.880 | It's good to feel loved.

00:41:30.760 | - Yeah.

00:41:31.600 | All right.

00:41:32.440 | So what did you learn from that match?

00:41:36.680 | Like takeaways, technically speaking,

00:41:38.440 | like what do you need to work on?

00:41:40.880 | - Well, I learned that I am pretty good.

00:41:44.080 | (laughing)

00:41:45.760 | Yeah, pretty good.

00:41:47.440 | I got a few, I know exactly what my weakness is.

00:41:50.520 | It's the leg lock department and I'm doing a lot

00:41:54.120 | to get better in that specific aspect.

00:41:56.800 | - Attack and defense?

00:41:58.240 | - I would say, yeah, attack, defense, re-attacks.

00:42:01.800 | Even if I wanted to offensively enter a leg,

00:42:04.320 | I could use some work there as well.

00:42:06.480 | But I feel like once I solidify,

00:42:08.280 | like if I become a black belt specifically

00:42:12.320 | in the leg lock department,

00:42:13.640 | I feel like I'd be unstoppable.

00:42:15.240 | - If you, Nicky Rod, definitively beat Gordon Ryan,

00:42:20.760 | how would you do it?

00:42:22.200 | - Buggy choke.

00:42:23.240 | - Buggy choke.

00:42:24.360 | - Buggy choke?

00:42:25.560 | For the listener,

00:42:26.480 | I don't even know how to describe buggy choke.

00:42:29.760 | What's the definitive conclusion on that choke?

00:42:33.600 | Does it work?

00:42:34.440 | - It's a choke that you do when you're in a,

00:42:39.160 | what's the opposite of a dominant?

00:42:40.200 | It's not submissive.

00:42:41.160 | In a non-dominant position of bottom of side control.

00:42:44.480 | - Yeah, just an embarrassing submission

00:42:46.040 | to get caught with, really.

00:42:47.200 | - Yeah, but does it work?

00:42:49.600 | - It works on certain people.

00:42:51.360 | (laughing)

00:42:52.480 | - For the listener, you go ask that word, Nicky Rod.

00:42:55.400 | It's embarrassing, but it's also, what,

00:42:57.120 | it's a way to frustrate the opponent.

00:42:59.360 | - For sure, yeah, it's a new part of the sport.

00:43:01.080 | I feel like the Rotolo's brought it back into fashion

00:43:03.200 | and even if you don't get it,

00:43:05.680 | because it's one of those moves that's so embarrassing,

00:43:07.960 | at the first sign of danger, the top guy abandons ship

00:43:11.840 | and you can basically retain guard

00:43:13.640 | by attempting a very embarrassing submission.

00:43:15.640 | - So the threat of embarrassment.

00:43:17.160 | - Yeah, yeah. - That's everybody.

00:43:18.080 | - People pull out very quick

00:43:19.400 | to avoid suffering the consequences.

00:43:22.280 | - I think some people underestimate

00:43:23.720 | how good of a submission it is.

00:43:26.120 | I mean, once you're locked in there,

00:43:27.840 | there's not too many defenses for a buggy choke.

00:43:32.640 | - Is there an instructional on the way from you?

00:43:35.440 | - J-Rod actually, my little brother has one.

00:43:37.440 | - Oh yeah, for real?

00:43:38.280 | You actually legit have, oh, wow.

00:43:42.000 | That's awesome, I'll check it out.

00:43:45.240 | So I mean, you're making a joke out of it,

00:43:47.160 | but it is a real, there's a system to it.

00:43:51.400 | - I mean, yeah, I don't know if we call it a system.

00:43:53.440 | (laughing)

00:43:54.840 | It's a good move.

00:43:56.160 | - I mean, you take an opponent

00:43:59.600 | that was just winning in a greatly dominant position,

00:44:03.440 | and then boom, in that same position,

00:44:04.960 | they're pretty much, they're losing.

00:44:06.480 | It's an interesting move.

00:44:08.320 | - What's the name of the, what's the name of it?

00:44:10.560 | - It's called the Buggypedia, like J-Rodriguez.

00:44:13.040 | - Okay, the Buggypedia.

00:44:15.080 | I thought there'd be something

00:44:15.960 | like very Craig Jones-y about it.

00:44:17.800 | Okay, awesome.

00:44:19.080 | I know you don't wanna sort of reveal the secrets

00:44:21.040 | of what you're working on, but in general,

00:44:23.040 | what does it take to beat Gordon, I guess, is the question.

00:44:26.200 | - It would have to be some kind of a choke.

00:44:27.360 | I think any joint lock or anything like that,

00:44:29.600 | he's just gonna let it break and stay in the match.

00:44:32.080 | So I don't even think he'd tap from a renegade choke.

00:44:35.480 | I think I would have to put him to sleep.

00:44:37.280 | So putting him to sleep is how I would win.

00:44:39.280 | - So Gordon is somebody who really hates losing.

00:44:41.680 | - Yeah, he wouldn't even tap in the practice room.

00:44:44.240 | I remember I had a toehold a couple times in practice room,

00:44:47.280 | and he was just comfortable working there.

00:44:49.080 | I'm like, I'm not really putting much on it.

00:44:51.080 | I think he just, maybe because of situations like that

00:44:54.480 | in practice, he kind of didn't respect my toehold's ability

00:44:57.840 | in the competition.

00:44:59.600 | - You've done that to me in the practice.

00:45:01.280 | - I have, yeah.

00:45:03.240 | Yeah, I gave you a little--

00:45:04.080 | - Gave me a little pop, and then he let go.

00:45:06.080 | (laughing)

00:45:06.920 | - And that was only 10% right there.

00:45:08.600 | (laughing)

00:45:09.680 | - Hey, don't get into math.

00:45:11.080 | (laughing)

00:45:12.840 | - Okay, is there some part of that you think is necessary

00:45:16.600 | to be a champion, is to like, this almost unwillingness

00:45:20.040 | in competition to tap?

00:45:21.720 | - I think there's definitely something to be said

00:45:23.280 | for people that are just like, you know,

00:45:26.480 | willing to go that extra mile or to take that damage

00:45:28.920 | to secure their victory.

00:45:30.600 | - Is there a part of you that like, would hate to tap

00:45:33.920 | or hates to tap?

00:45:35.200 | - Yeah, I mean, all of me, I would hate that.

00:45:37.360 | (laughing)

00:45:38.200 | Yeah, the whole part of me.

00:45:39.960 | - Isn't there a John Legend song like that?

00:45:42.440 | All of you and all of me?

00:45:44.200 | - Very romantic, yeah.

00:45:45.040 | - Yeah, we're sticking on that theme.

00:45:46.560 | Okay, I'm sorry.

00:45:47.400 | Oh, one of the things Gordon asked,

00:45:52.400 | I forget how he put it because I think there's a lot

00:45:54.640 | of words that would need to be censored involved,

00:45:57.520 | but he said, ask them how it feels to have a zero five

00:46:02.520 | record against me with four submissions combined.

00:46:06.440 | - I mean, first of all, I wasn't sure he could count to five.

00:46:09.720 | - Yeah.

00:46:10.560 | - That's an impressive thing.

00:46:11.400 | - That's impressive.

00:46:12.240 | (laughing)

00:46:13.080 | - Oh, and five, I mean, I will say one thing,

00:46:14.720 | nobody beats me four times.

00:46:16.240 | (laughing)

00:46:18.480 | - I love you so much, Craig.

00:46:20.360 | - Lex, I did have a question.

00:46:22.120 | I did have a question for you.

00:46:23.680 | (laughing)

00:46:25.960 | There was some controversy on your Twitter

00:46:28.120 | about a list of books.

00:46:31.160 | - Yeah.

00:46:32.000 | - And I was wondering why Gordon's book

00:46:34.960 | wasn't featured amongst that literature.

00:46:37.360 | - Well, it was only the first 30 books

00:46:40.000 | or like the first 20 books, and it would of course be in--

00:46:43.240 | - Something interesting about Gordon,

00:46:44.400 | he's the first author that's written more books

00:46:47.000 | than he's read.

00:46:47.840 | - Pretty good.

00:46:51.320 | (laughing)

00:46:53.800 | If you face him and beat him,

00:46:55.840 | like what's your take on what it takes to beat Gordon?

00:46:58.320 | I mean, you guys kind of joke

00:46:59.600 | and you go pretty hard recently on each other,

00:47:02.440 | but as a fan of jujitsu, I'm all in on this rivalry.

00:47:06.400 | It's just fun to watch.

00:47:07.680 | - I mean, first of all,

00:47:08.520 | I don't think I go really hard with him.

00:47:10.840 | I think Gordon is, he's pretty sensitive.

00:47:14.400 | You know what I mean?

00:47:15.240 | He's looking for a large insult in a small insult.

00:47:18.120 | And for me, like Australians,

00:47:20.320 | we just attack each other all day, every day.

00:47:23.360 | And for me, like if I see someone

00:47:24.680 | that takes himself very seriously,

00:47:26.840 | that's like blood in the water.

00:47:28.360 | That's funny to me.

00:47:29.200 | To me, if I can just gently provoke

00:47:31.680 | and get a strong reaction, that's hilarious.

00:47:34.480 | Like Aussies, we will just attack each other

00:47:36.680 | and the first person that gets upset,

00:47:38.200 | he kind of loses the exchange.

00:47:40.200 | So I think that is very, very entertaining.

00:47:43.520 | - Like if you were to beat Gordon,

00:47:45.160 | would the mental game off the mat be part of it?

00:47:47.560 | - I think it would be a factor for sure.

00:47:50.480 | But I mean, I'm never gonna come out

00:47:51.760 | too crazy direct with him.

00:47:53.000 | You know, like I find that like if you get too upset

00:47:56.720 | on the line and you're going crazy,

00:47:57.760 | I find that I'd be embarrassed to do that myself.

00:48:00.360 | Obviously everyone's different.

00:48:01.680 | Everyone has a different style, you know?

00:48:03.560 | But like, yeah, I think mental,

00:48:05.000 | the mental aspect would play a big factor.

00:48:08.000 | I mean, mainly, because if I were to beat him,

00:48:12.440 | I would send him a message every day until I died,

00:48:17.160 | just to gently remind him that I got the last one.

00:48:20.200 | The last one is all that matters.

00:48:22.440 | We're not giving it to him.

00:48:23.760 | We're not giving it to him.

00:48:25.840 | - So like once you beat him,

00:48:27.720 | you're going to run for the rest of your life?

00:48:30.840 | - I mean, run, but look back.

00:48:32.160 | - Yeah, yeah, right.

00:48:33.560 | What message is it?

00:48:35.080 | - A sidestep.

00:48:36.280 | - Ride your horse into the sunset, okay.

00:48:41.000 | - Oh, by the way, you've talked very lightly.

00:48:43.040 | You've talked shit very lightly

00:48:45.080 | against Alexander Volkanovsky's opponent, very lightly.

00:48:49.280 | Have you received death threats or how are you still alive?

00:48:53.560 | - Like Gordon, I would say people from Dagestan

00:48:58.000 | take a joke very well.

00:48:59.600 | You know what I mean?

00:49:01.160 | - Do they really?

00:49:02.000 | - No.

00:49:02.840 | - Oh, like Gordon, oh, like, I'm sorry.

00:49:04.400 | I'm slow.

00:49:05.240 | (laughing)

00:49:06.080 | I went into aggressive mode in my head.

00:49:08.040 | - Now, honestly, Islam is pretty cool.

00:49:10.280 | I wanted to stir it up a bit, you know,

00:49:11.920 | 'cause like I felt like that was a massive fight

00:49:13.840 | and it probably should have had more attention

00:49:16.040 | than it was receiving.

00:49:17.000 | So I wanted to just gently stir it up a bit.

00:49:19.560 | I feel like Sambo guys are in the same vein

00:49:21.520 | as catch wrestlers, very sensitive.

00:49:23.520 | You know, like obviously there's only three people

00:49:25.000 | in the world that do catch wrestling, Sambo,

00:49:27.120 | maybe 10 to 15.

00:49:28.360 | So I figured we could really provoke them

00:49:31.080 | with that sort of Jiu-Jitsu Sambo stuff.

00:49:33.880 | Islam took the jokes very well.

00:49:35.460 | The Russian fans, not so much, are very serious.

00:49:38.160 | There's not many smiles in Russia, you know.

00:49:41.120 | They didn't take it as well.

00:49:42.200 | - I'm trying to suppress the anger,

00:49:43.480 | the rage is building up inside me slowly.

00:49:46.500 | So you guys mentioned steroids.

00:49:49.800 | - I like that you bring that up

00:49:50.680 | after we talk about Russia, for the record.

00:49:54.040 | Smooth, smooth segue there.

00:49:55.680 | (laughing)

00:49:56.960 | - I cannot condone the statements said by the Aussie,

00:50:01.360 | but I would love to travel with you to Russia.

00:50:03.840 | - That would be a good time.

00:50:05.080 | You might get killed with me now.

00:50:07.040 | - No, I would be the first to turn to backstabbing.

00:50:10.960 | (laughing)

00:50:12.160 | - You're like, I got in there, get in.

00:50:15.160 | - All right.

00:50:16.000 | Are most of the top grapplers on steroids?

00:50:20.920 | - I mean, it's hard to say.

00:50:22.200 | You know, some people look like shit and they're on steroids.

00:50:25.640 | Some people look excellent and they're not on steroids.

00:50:28.640 | It's so, so hard to tell.

00:50:30.800 | - That seems to be the general consensus

00:50:32.920 | that a lot of people are on steroids.

00:50:34.080 | I'm always a little bit, I don't know.

00:50:35.800 | So, I'll be honest, I've never seen anyone take steroids.

00:50:39.640 | I've never taken steroids.

00:50:41.000 | I don't even know if that's the right term to use

00:50:43.200 | or like TRT, any of that.

00:50:45.120 | So, I'm very careful to not let my naivete

00:50:49.680 | lead me to take conclusions.

00:50:53.960 | But I do feel a little bit weird

00:50:56.160 | about the witch hunt nature of it.

00:50:58.200 | Some people a little bit too eagerly claim

00:51:00.240 | that others are on steroids

00:51:01.880 | just because they're successful.

00:51:04.720 | But at the same time, it does seem that a lot of athletes

00:51:08.080 | will do whatever it takes to be successful.

00:51:10.680 | - Yeah, I mean, if a sport doesn't test,

00:51:12.600 | you got to assume most people are gonna do it.

00:51:15.640 | And especially now, as more money comes into the sport,

00:51:18.600 | you got to assume more people are gonna do it, you know?

00:51:20.680 | - I generally like do AGCC and like does Jiu-Jitsu test?

00:51:25.600 | - It's actually encouraged.

00:51:27.080 | - What's encouraged?

00:51:27.920 | (laughing)

00:51:29.520 | You get a pamphlet, okay.

00:51:30.960 | They don't test?

00:51:31.800 | There's no testing procedure?

00:51:32.640 | - They test to make sure we're on steroids

00:51:33.880 | 'cause obviously it's a big show

00:51:35.120 | for the UFC, Fight Pass in the future.

00:51:37.000 | (laughing)

00:51:37.840 | They don't want anyone coming in out of shape.

00:51:39.520 | - Very nice.

00:51:40.440 | Do you think using steroids in that kind of context

00:51:42.760 | in sports is wrong?

00:51:44.320 | Like stepping away, if it's not illegal?

00:51:47.040 | - I mean, from my perspective--

00:51:47.880 | - Do you think ethically speaking?

00:51:49.040 | - I like to assume everyone's on steroids

00:51:50.480 | so I don't have to feel bad about using steroids myself.

00:51:52.640 | - Yeah.

00:51:53.480 | (laughing)

00:51:54.400 | Do you use all of the steroids?

00:51:56.240 | - I'm over 30, it's DRD, you know?

00:51:57.760 | That's the medical definition.

00:51:59.120 | (laughing)

00:52:01.440 | - That's the medical, okay.

00:52:02.760 | (laughing)

00:52:04.480 | I'd like to meet your doctor.

00:52:05.320 | - Therapeutic use, you know?

00:52:06.760 | - Therapeutic, right.

00:52:08.080 | Like how do you just feel about it?

00:52:11.360 | - I mean, it is cheating for sure.

00:52:12.760 | Whether they test for it or not, I think it is cheating.

00:52:14.840 | Obviously some people are gonna say,

00:52:15.840 | "Oh, fuck, everyone's on it.

00:52:17.520 | "I should be able to get away with it.

00:52:18.760 | "It makes it even playing field."

00:52:20.280 | You know, but it kind of becomes Russian roulette

00:52:21.800 | 'cause it's like if one guy's taking a small amount

00:52:24.160 | and the other guy is taking a huge amount,

00:52:27.400 | he's gonna reap huge rewards in the short term,

00:52:31.120 | probably be dead pretty early,

00:52:33.280 | but die a champion, mind you.

00:52:35.080 | You know what I mean?

00:52:35.920 | So it's like, I don't know what that one is.

00:52:38.240 | - Yeah, what do you think about that?

00:52:39.360 | Do you think it's worthy to take health risks

00:52:43.440 | just for the glory?

00:52:45.040 | - I think if you're 40 about to die

00:52:47.040 | looking at a cabinet of gold medals for wrestling other men,

00:52:50.720 | it's probably not gonna hit the same way

00:52:52.360 | on your death bed, you know?

00:52:53.760 | - Sorry, in which direction?

00:52:56.840 | Like is that a good thing or not?

00:52:58.280 | - No, you're probably gonna feel like,

00:52:59.480 | "Oh fuck, I probably wasted a bit of health on that."

00:53:02.280 | - You think so?

00:53:03.120 | Isn't that like the glory of it?

00:53:07.000 | Like you said other men, yeah.

00:53:09.800 | Yeah, yeah.

00:53:11.680 | - Well, I mean, in my opinion,

00:53:13.280 | maybe wrestle a woman as well.

00:53:14.760 | - What'd you do with Gabby on Valentine's Day?

00:53:18.480 | What did you take her?

00:53:20.000 | - We filmed some new stuff for OnlyFans.

00:53:22.240 | - For OnlyFans.

00:53:23.080 | - We never stopped working.

00:53:24.440 | (laughing)

00:53:25.800 | - Says the love affair is also a work affair, okay.

00:53:29.200 | - I don't know.

00:53:30.040 | There's something too that me like,

00:53:33.200 | like Olympic gold medalists accomplishing like the heights,

00:53:36.280 | like sacrificing everything, just everything.

00:53:38.880 | The first 20, 30 years of your life

00:53:40.680 | for this silly little piece of metal.

00:53:43.640 | I think there's something beautiful to that.

00:53:45.440 | That's like conspires a lot, a lot of people.

00:53:48.400 | And that's like the height of the human condition in a way.

00:53:53.400 | - What if you survive?

00:53:55.600 | I'm just saying if you're in your deathbed early in life-

00:53:58.280 | - We all die.

00:53:59.680 | All men die, Jones, but not all men truly live.

00:54:03.200 | - How many years are you willing to shave off

00:54:06.640 | for a gold medal?

00:54:08.160 | - That's a good question.

00:54:09.240 | How many?

00:54:10.080 | How many are you willing to shave off for a gold medal?

00:54:12.120 | What you're for a silver medal?

00:54:13.640 | - For a silver, I mean, for a silver medal,

00:54:15.480 | I'd shave a few off.

00:54:16.400 | - I think two silvers makes a gold.

00:54:17.920 | (laughing)

00:54:19.400 | - It's worth five years?

00:54:20.600 | - Five to 10, maybe.

00:54:23.120 | Shave off the bad years, enhance the good ones.

00:54:27.200 | - Well, I mean, you've sacrificed.

00:54:28.320 | You guys sacrificed a lot, a lot of your life.

00:54:30.600 | You continue to sacrifice.

00:54:31.440 | You don't see it as sacrifice.

00:54:33.280 | - It's fun.

00:54:34.120 | I think training's fun being a bit adamant about it,

00:54:36.640 | consistent, gives you, I mean,

00:54:38.760 | I think we have a great routine, great ritual.

00:54:41.040 | Definitely enjoy the process.

00:54:42.660 | - All right, well, do you guys know,

00:54:45.720 | this is bro science, or I'm talking bro scientists,

00:54:48.880 | but do you know how long steroids stay in your system?

00:54:51.480 | - Forever?

00:54:53.880 | - Forever.

00:54:54.720 | - Oh, because it's like, once you do it,

00:54:57.600 | you own it.

00:54:58.440 | - Yeah.

00:54:59.800 | Just the knowledge.

00:55:01.240 | Yeah, all right.

00:55:02.920 | - I think it's different for each steroid, right?

00:55:04.400 | I think some of them last longer than others.

00:55:06.280 | It depends if it's a urine.

00:55:07.200 | - You would think I would do a little research

00:55:08.840 | before asking these questions.

00:55:10.880 | Why do you think most athletes and coaches

00:55:12.600 | don't talk about steroids?

00:55:14.080 | Like, why is it such a secret?

00:55:16.820 | Why is it so embarrassing?

00:55:18.320 | - I think they probably talk about it

00:55:19.640 | like amongst the team and whatnot.

00:55:21.720 | Again, I mean, it's gonna be more shady

00:55:24.000 | if it's like your sport is tested or whatnot.

00:55:26.880 | Or kind of in the wild west, in the grappling world.

00:55:29.560 | - Yeah, but why don't grapplers talk about it?

00:55:32.400 | Because it seems cheating.

00:55:33.960 | - I mean, it's kind of insinuated as a bit of cheating,

00:55:37.120 | even if it's not tested.

00:55:40.400 | I mean, still, you're taking a person that could,

00:55:44.000 | maybe has good jiu-jitsu, good mechanics,

00:55:45.920 | you're putting them on the leg,

00:55:47.200 | and they're something with a heel hook

00:55:48.480 | versus breaking your leg with a heel hook.

00:55:50.760 | Something as subtle as that can make big differences.

00:55:54.920 | - All right, this is gonna make me sound dumb,

00:55:56.800 | but is it possible that steroids

00:55:58.680 | are not a huge help in grappling?

00:56:00.880 | - I think if you're bad at jiu-jitsu and you do steroids,

00:56:04.680 | you're gonna continue to be bad at jiu-jitsu.

00:56:07.400 | But if you're great at gear,

00:56:08.800 | I'm sorry, if you're great at grappling,

00:56:11.360 | if you're great at grappling and then you also do gear,

00:56:13.520 | it's gonna enhance what you're already good at

00:56:16.480 | and make you much better.

00:56:17.320 | - But like how much is the enhancement,

00:56:18.680 | I guess is the question.

00:56:19.840 | - How much is muscle valued?

00:56:21.800 | - Right, that's the question.

00:56:22.960 | - If you're doing gear

00:56:23.800 | and you're not changing weight that much,

00:56:25.120 | like maybe it helps you a little bit,

00:56:26.760 | but if you're gaining 50, 60 pounds of pure muscle

00:56:30.760 | and it's like, that's a huge enhancement,

00:56:32.520 | that's another human.

00:56:33.720 | - Does muscle, a small human, yeah.

00:56:38.080 | Does muscle matter in jiu-jitsu?

00:56:40.040 | I guess this is the question.

00:56:41.600 | Is it possible that it gets in the way?

00:56:43.160 | - I'd say muscle matters, but technique matters more.

00:56:45.920 | - I also think that it'll help you develop technique as well

00:56:49.560 | because obviously testosterone helps with recovery rate.

00:56:53.160 | So if you're on gear, you're able to train a lot more.

00:56:56.600 | Now, that being said, if you're not able to learn,

00:56:59.440 | obviously it's not gonna help in that aspect,

00:57:01.280 | but if you're somebody that knows how to learn

00:57:02.800 | and get good at jiu-jitsu

00:57:04.120 | and then you add gear on top of that,

00:57:05.960 | you're able to do significantly more sessions

00:57:08.160 | throughout the week.

00:57:09.400 | - Okay, and by the way, gear is steroids?

00:57:11.280 | - Steroids, yeah.

00:57:12.600 | - Okay.

00:57:13.440 | I also think that you don't have to be as consistent

00:57:16.840 | in like your sleep and your food and stuff.

00:57:18.720 | If you're on gear, you have a little bit of leeway,

00:57:22.320 | but I mean, being consistent in your diet and your sleep

00:57:25.600 | definitely would help the process.

00:57:27.920 | - Since you use most steroids of any athlete I've ever met,

00:57:31.800 | do you think steroids help jiu-jitsu?

00:57:34.800 | - I think obviously it helps recovery

00:57:37.600 | and your ability to train more,

00:57:38.640 | but I think some, I've seen some guys go on steroids

00:57:41.720 | and then suddenly they feel like the Incredible Hulk.

00:57:44.320 | And now in the training room,

00:57:46.040 | they just start to rely more on strength

00:57:48.120 | than the techniques they had.

00:57:49.480 | And actually in some respect hinders them

00:57:52.240 | and makes them gas more in competition

00:57:54.800 | 'cause then they're using more of the muscle

00:57:57.040 | they never used to have.

00:57:59.400 | - So you've implied that you're a natural athlete.

00:58:02.880 | - You said that skeptically.

00:58:06.160 | (laughing)

00:58:07.000 | Why are you skeptical?

00:58:08.120 | (laughing)

00:58:09.600 | - Is this something you do for social media

00:58:12.320 | to talk shit to Gordon,

00:58:13.960 | to imply that he's not a natural athlete?

00:58:15.880 | - Well, I only pretty much recently on social media,

00:58:18.720 | I had this rebuttal, you know,

00:58:20.240 | saying that Gordon's on gear.

00:58:22.280 | And I only said that because after our match

00:58:24.800 | in our most recent match, the EBI rules match,

00:58:29.080 | he accused me of greasing, which is like lubing up

00:58:32.240 | so I'm slippery during our match.

00:58:34.320 | - And you did not.

00:58:35.160 | - I did not.

00:58:36.000 | I was checked multiple times before and after

00:58:38.320 | our grappling event.

00:58:39.840 | And he still went out and accused me of this.

00:58:42.400 | So I was like, all right, as opposed to telling a lie,

00:58:44.480 | I'll just tell the truth about your steroid use,

00:58:47.040 | which it shouldn't be that big of a deal in retrospect

00:58:49.800 | 'cause he kind of admitted it and whatnot previously.

00:58:53.400 | So it's, yeah, I just kind of felt like I had to rebuttal

00:58:56.880 | and I didn't do it immediately 'cause I was like,

00:58:58.960 | all right, I know I have this podcast planned

00:59:00.800 | so I'll wait to do it on my friend, Mark Bell's podcast,

00:59:05.280 | you know, be a little more,

00:59:06.840 | get a little bit more exposure on it.

00:59:08.680 | And yeah, I knew he was gonna bite the bait

00:59:11.800 | but I didn't think he was gonna bite the bait that hard.

00:59:14.320 | I know he's a little stressed out about the comment,

00:59:17.520 | but you know.

00:59:18.960 | - And that was the origin of you guys going back and forth.

00:59:21.960 | - Well, it wasn't so much back and forth,

00:59:23.520 | it was just, I went forth and then he kept going back,

00:59:26.560 | back, back.

00:59:27.400 | Like I remember one of my guys, the enemy,

00:59:29.920 | and they were like, Gordon's made like 68 Instagram stories

00:59:33.840 | and 67 of them were all about you.

00:59:35.920 | I was like, all right, well, I'm in his head for sure.

00:59:38.200 | - Got us a few followers, we appreciate that.

00:59:39.760 | - We did, we did get followers.

00:59:41.440 | He even shouted out our B-team white belt program.

00:59:44.320 | So thank you.

00:59:45.320 | - Yeah.

00:59:46.160 | (laughing)

00:59:49.320 | - Okay, speaking of which, what's the B-team?

00:59:53.240 | How's it run?

00:59:54.080 | And why is it called the B-team?

00:59:57.080 | - Well, I mean, Craig-

00:59:57.920 | - Was the A-team taken?

00:59:58.760 | - I would have been.

01:00:00.040 | For me, B's for best.

01:00:01.960 | - Okay, best.

01:00:03.760 | All right, what does B stand for for you?

01:00:06.800 | What does it represent?

01:00:07.680 | What is the ideal, like, you know,

01:00:10.480 | Miyamoto Musashi philosophical foundation of B-team?

01:00:15.600 | - Aim low and achieve.

01:00:16.760 | - Oh.

01:00:17.600 | If the bar is set low, you can't help but win, okay.

01:00:22.800 | - That's Nikki's philosophy with women as well.

01:00:25.280 | Set the bar incredibly low, overachieve.

01:00:28.560 | - So what is the B-team?

01:00:30.600 | How do you guys run it?

01:00:31.760 | Like what, yeah, I mean, can you just talk about the school,

01:00:34.240 | how you found it?

01:00:35.080 | What is it, what's it like?

01:00:37.920 | - I mean, pretty much just a regular jujitsu gym.

01:00:40.760 | We started as sort of a pros only, purple belt and above team

01:00:45.520 | and we have me, Nikki Rod, Nikki Ryan, Ethan, Damian.

01:00:49.920 | As coaches, am I missing someone?

01:00:52.680 | Oh, JB.

01:00:54.480 | - Your memory is with your old age.

01:00:55.880 | - Impeccable memory, yeah.

01:00:56.840 | And we got JB coming on to teach wipeouts.

01:00:58.800 | But just your stock standard jujitsu team.

01:01:01.280 | We focus on more, we lean heavily

01:01:03.920 | towards the professional athlete side of things.

01:01:06.120 | We have a lot of high level guys in there.

01:01:08.320 | - Yeah.

01:01:09.160 | - Class structure, regular instruction,

01:01:10.920 | positional sparring, open rounds.

01:01:13.440 | But we sort of took a heavy slant

01:01:15.760 | on marketing side of things.

01:01:17.720 | We really try to blow up the YouTube channel.

01:01:20.400 | Obviously we sell a lot of clothing, merchandise and stuff.

01:01:23.840 | So yeah, we just sort of took a modern approach

01:01:25.760 | to a standard jujitsu gym.

01:01:27.160 | 'Cause I mean, jujitsu gyms are full

01:01:28.720 | of some of the most boring human beings on earth.

01:01:31.760 | So we try to highlight--

01:01:32.600 | - Strong words, Greg Jones.

01:01:33.920 | Strong words.

01:01:34.880 | - Highlight the other side of things,

01:01:36.320 | keep it pretty light hearted.

01:01:37.160 | - That it can be fun.

01:01:38.160 | - Yeah, that jujitsu can be fun.

01:01:39.680 | I guess that it can be cool too.

01:01:41.440 | It's not just full of steroided up autistic people.

01:01:45.440 | - Question from Reddit.

01:01:47.200 | Quote, "Need to hear some of the stories

01:01:49.120 | "about drop-ins that led to the making

01:01:51.080 | "of the gem of a video,

01:01:52.440 | "the do's and don'ts of training a B team."

01:01:54.920 | Any fun stories?

01:01:57.280 | - Any ones that stand out?

01:01:58.560 | Do you guys remember any?

01:01:59.520 | - Police involved ever?

01:02:00.960 | - We had a guy come over to kick him out.

01:02:02.360 | He was stalking two of the members.

01:02:04.400 | Yeah, well, I mean, that's just crazy people.

01:02:08.480 | - I portray a pretty insane image online.

01:02:11.680 | And I guess I am that a lot of the time,

01:02:13.880 | but at training, try to keep it.

01:02:15.800 | While training, around training, I'm insulting everyone,

01:02:19.320 | but while training, I try to keep it pretty serious.

01:02:21.520 | But obviously the image I portray

01:02:22.840 | lures in some of the crazier members.

01:02:25.640 | - I mean, like the thing is about the gym you guys run

01:02:28.440 | is really professional.

01:02:30.280 | It's like friendly.

01:02:31.280 | It's like the light hearted joking is there, obviously,

01:02:34.080 | the, you know, like shit talk and all that kind of stuff.

01:02:36.040 | But I guess it's a pretty safe environment.

01:02:39.240 | But the public persona might attract some.

01:02:43.160 | - Some maniacs.

01:02:44.520 | I won't say which places I've trained at,

01:02:46.000 | but obviously some places you walk into the room

01:02:47.800 | and it's very, very serious.

01:02:50.240 | There's no smiles around.

01:02:51.520 | Obviously it's probably average training room in Russia,

01:02:53.040 | but no smiles, very serious environment.

01:02:56.560 | You know what I mean?

01:02:57.400 | And I definitely don't like that.

01:02:59.080 | I don't wanna show up to training

01:03:00.000 | and be walking on eggshells,

01:03:01.920 | not know what the coach's mood's like that day.

01:03:04.120 | I wanna go in, have a good time, keep it light hearted.

01:03:07.760 | - What was in the video?

01:03:08.880 | What are the do's and don'ts?

01:03:10.440 | 'Cause like the address is public.

01:03:12.000 | Like anyone can show up.

01:03:13.600 | - Anyone can show up, yeah.

01:03:14.640 | What were the do's and don'ts?

01:03:15.480 | - Does anyone challenge you like to a fight?

01:03:18.360 | - Not yet, not yet.

01:03:20.240 | I mean, probably from other gyms in town,

01:03:22.280 | that's probably coming down the line,

01:03:24.560 | but do's and don'ts.

01:03:26.720 | - I'm all in on that.

01:03:28.560 | I would be excited as a fan to just watch.

01:03:30.800 | - The love of the drama.

01:03:32.320 | - Not the drama, no, no, no.

01:03:33.720 | - Well, a little drama, a little drop of poison is good,

01:03:37.040 | but ultimately it's the best grapplers in the world

01:03:41.760 | kinda going at it, yeah.

01:03:44.360 | Yeah, it's fun.

01:03:45.840 | 'Cause maybe I'm wrong,

01:03:47.360 | but I think there is an underlying deep camaraderie

01:03:49.960 | at the end of the day

01:03:51.240 | when you're like at the top of the world

01:03:53.520 | and you're like in the same town.

01:03:55.520 | - What could possibly go wrong?

01:03:57.000 | - It's like a shitty Western, but like an epic Western

01:04:00.120 | where like Clint Eastwood, like the good, the bad, and ugly.

01:04:02.920 | Of course I love it.

01:04:03.920 | I'm here just eating popcorn like that.

01:04:07.800 | - Staring the pot.

01:04:09.120 | - I'm not staring the pot.

01:04:10.120 | I'm not staring the pot.

01:04:10.960 | - These questions are from Reddit.

01:04:12.360 | They're not from people.

01:04:13.880 | - That one for sure.

01:04:15.840 | - Yeah, I mean, what could possibly go wrong

01:04:17.120 | if you're the world's best grappler, hates you,

01:04:19.120 | and you're gently provoking him behind the scenes every day?

01:04:21.640 | Well, I mean.

01:04:22.480 | - For sure, in Texas.

01:04:23.880 | - And you've stolen his brother, held him for ransom.

01:04:26.720 | - Kidnap.

01:04:27.880 | It is like a story of a shitty Western, I think.

01:04:31.160 | - You now allow white belts to train with you.

01:04:34.440 | What's it like to open it up to a bigger audience?

01:04:37.600 | - We haven't opened it up yet,

01:04:39.240 | but it'll be interesting to see.

01:04:40.360 | I mean, I feel like your higher belts,

01:04:43.080 | they really understand what the training room is.

01:04:47.360 | You know what I mean?

01:04:48.200 | White belts early, they're trying to find their place

01:04:50.160 | in the gym, could be kind of awkward

01:04:52.280 | and stuff in that environment.

01:04:53.640 | So I think obviously those white belts coming in

01:04:56.080 | will change the dynamic,

01:04:57.120 | but the white belts will have a separate white belt class

01:05:00.400 | obviously for them, 'cause given it's such a high level gym,

01:05:02.640 | it'd be tough for a beginner to be able to enter

01:05:06.520 | the more advanced classes.

01:05:07.920 | Well, obviously we're teaching more advanced techniques.

01:05:10.800 | So yeah, we've separated a white belt program,

01:05:12.960 | I believe 6 p.m. on Friday.

01:05:14.960 | Yeah, maybe we'll have a Saturday one as well,

01:05:17.080 | but it'd be interesting to see how it goes.

01:05:18.920 | We're trying to do things different, you know,

01:05:20.160 | like trying to do your traditional,

01:05:22.720 | traditional gyms, obviously you're not gonna teach

01:05:24.120 | beginners wrestling at all.

01:05:25.040 | We're trying to split it at least 33%,

01:05:27.560 | top game, bottom game and wrestling.

01:05:29.400 | So at least create more well-rounded athletes from day one.

01:05:33.160 | Whereas I feel like most traditional jiu-jitsu gyms

01:05:35.600 | might have no gi once a week, they don't touch wrestling,

01:05:38.520 | very IBJJF heavy techniques,

01:05:41.000 | but again, the sport's changing for sure.

01:05:42.520 | - Just to take that on,

01:05:43.640 | how does a beginner get good at jiu-jitsu?

01:05:45.400 | Like given that you're starting this white belt,

01:05:46.880 | what's your philosophy on that?

01:05:48.160 | - Obviously buy all of my instructionals at full price,

01:05:52.160 | not during a sale, that would go a long way.

01:05:54.680 | - For those of you who are Russians,

01:05:55.800 | I'll send you instructions,

01:05:58.040 | or all the forms so you know how to steal it.

01:06:01.000 | - Yeah, discount code.

01:06:01.840 | - I'll share, I bought 'em all,

01:06:02.840 | so I'll just send it to you for free.

01:06:04.560 | - I mean, we do have the Makachev 50 discount code,

01:06:06.560 | you know, offering discounts to help him out for the rematch.

01:06:09.960 | - I got the, nice.

01:06:11.480 | (laughing)

01:06:12.600 | The Makachev 50, well, I got a 100% discount for you

01:06:16.720 | if you need it, but that said,

01:06:18.200 | your instructional are both hilarious and brilliant,

01:06:20.360 | and it's one of the most respected instructionals.

01:06:22.800 | - Oh, thank you.

01:06:23.640 | - Out there, with incredibly great names.

01:06:26.120 | - Yeah, it probably loses me sales, honestly,

01:06:28.520 | due to removing the seriousness of the text we cover.

01:06:30.720 | - Oh, 'cause they think it's gonna kinda suck,

01:06:31.960 | it's gonna be some funny gimmicky thing?

01:06:34.400 | - Or, I mean, some people don't even know

01:06:36.120 | if it's a real product.

01:06:37.360 | (laughing)

01:06:38.200 | That's a big hurdle I have to overcome,

01:06:39.640 | is they see it and they're like,

01:06:41.440 | is that a real thing?

01:06:43.480 | That's a problem.

01:06:44.320 | But how does the White Belt get good?

01:06:45.840 | I think they just, I mean, they just have to show up.

01:06:47.680 | Just have to put in the effort,

01:06:49.920 | try to focus on using techniques and training

01:06:52.120 | rather than just fighting to the death, you know?

01:06:55.160 | Although that is entertaining for us to watch,

01:06:56.680 | to watch White Belt fight to the death.

01:06:58.240 | - Yeah, but what are the techniques?

01:06:59.360 | You should focus on, like, what's the process?

01:07:00.880 | What does it mean to show up?

01:07:01.880 | Like, how much drilling, all that kind of stuff.

01:07:03.720 | If you were to optimize the first six months of a beginner,

01:07:08.040 | there's a lot of people who would listen to this

01:07:09.520 | and haven't tried, they've been curious.

01:07:11.200 | I have a lot of friends who haven't,

01:07:12.680 | who are like, you're just too curious.

01:07:14.480 | They're constantly looking for an excuse to start.

01:07:16.880 | - I think it's just gotta be as simple as possible.

01:07:21.360 | You know, like, we shouldn't be teaching

01:07:22.800 | more advanced movements.

01:07:24.600 | I mean, obviously, in the grand scheme of things,

01:07:26.560 | there's highly advanced techniques,

01:07:28.400 | and then there's slightly advanced.

01:07:30.200 | And I think trying to teach those guys

01:07:32.840 | real specific positions, even,

01:07:34.720 | like real specific types of guard,

01:07:37.560 | it's just beyond them.

01:07:39.280 | I think the best way to learn is through problem solving.

01:07:42.320 | And I think if you show the technique

01:07:43.920 | before they've discovered that problem,

01:07:46.680 | the learning is sort of held back.

01:07:49.280 | So I like the idea of using kids' style games

01:07:53.520 | to show them a problem,

01:07:55.120 | and then use the techniques to fix the problems

01:07:57.840 | they've just discovered.

01:07:59.120 | I think that's the best way to learn.

01:08:00.720 | - Can you give an example of a problem to show them

01:08:02.800 | before you give them the techniques?

01:08:04.120 | Like, what are we talking about?

01:08:04.960 | - All right, so say you wanted to teach

01:08:07.120 | posture in wrestling.

01:08:08.520 | You could create a game where one guy,

01:08:10.360 | the game might be get to a leg or get to two legs,

01:08:13.560 | control the leg, like super simple.

01:08:15.800 | But the rules, the constraint would be

01:08:17.440 | one guy is forced to keep an upright posture,

01:08:20.640 | and one guy is forced, well, not forced,

01:08:22.760 | but he's allowed to keep a bent at the hips, lower posture.

01:08:26.600 | And obviously within that constraint,

01:08:29.080 | the guy with the better posture

01:08:30.920 | is going to have more success.

01:08:33.000 | He's gonna have a better posture to secure a leg

01:08:35.480 | or secure both legs.

01:08:36.480 | And therefore you've demonstrated the flaws of bad posture

01:08:40.000 | without having to explain it to them

01:08:41.880 | before they really tested that out.

01:08:43.880 | - Okay, and then the result of that,

01:08:45.240 | you would realize that the bent over posture is better.

01:08:47.640 | - Yeah, you have that aha moment

01:08:49.360 | rather than just having it spoken to you.

01:08:52.720 | - You wrote, Craig,

01:08:55.400 | "I'm a big fan of constraint-based learning,"

01:08:57.400 | I guess was what you're talking about.

01:08:59.240 | "I love presenting beginners with a problem

01:09:00.880 | before the solution, like here,

01:09:02.360 | attempt to hold side control with no cues on how.

01:09:05.680 | Then I see how the guy got out and address issue by issue,

01:09:10.600 | cross face and hip control and so on."

01:09:12.600 | Okay, so what are some other examples like side control?

01:09:15.040 | - Yeah, that would be excellent one, side control.

01:09:17.080 | Like teacher, like obviously we say,

01:09:18.640 | oh, you secure a cross face so they can't turn into you.

01:09:21.640 | Much easier to have them try to hold someone down

01:09:24.360 | without explaining what a cross face is

01:09:25.800 | and then use that technique to address the problem

01:09:29.320 | they've just encountered.

01:09:30.480 | So I think you could do that with a lot of areas of jujitsu,

01:09:34.160 | like even more advanced, say 50/50,

01:09:37.000 | obviously a mirrored position

01:09:38.840 | where you both have access to each other's heels.

01:09:41.240 | Most people will stall out of that position

01:09:42.720 | and keep their feet crossed.

01:09:43.720 | I think a great constraint for both of them,

01:09:45.640 | you can't cross your feet.

01:09:47.280 | Now you have to learn how to slip the heel hook

01:09:51.360 | when they expose it and how to safely re-attack of your own.

01:09:55.320 | So the constraint is you can't be too defensive

01:09:58.040 | in that position.

01:09:59.040 | And I think the rate of learning increases.

01:10:01.680 | - Why do you think the rate of learning increases?

01:10:03.480 | Like why do you think that works?

01:10:04.320 | - Because you encounter more problems.

01:10:06.840 | Say in that situation,

01:10:07.960 | they're gonna get your heel a lot more

01:10:09.640 | in whatever period of time you allocate the drill for

01:10:13.040 | than if the legs are crossed.

01:10:14.680 | I don't think the hard part is splitting the legs

01:10:16.440 | to get to the submission.

01:10:17.720 | I think the hard part's practicing control

01:10:20.040 | while they're trying to slip it at a later stage.

01:10:22.120 | And then obviously trying to slip your heel

01:10:24.160 | when you're in more danger

01:10:25.000 | also makes you more comfortable in that bad position

01:10:27.280 | if you're used to doing it with open legs.

01:10:29.840 | - Yeah, I think that probably that style of teaching

01:10:32.800 | forces people to focus on,

01:10:35.680 | 'cause it's so easy to fall into focusing on

01:10:37.640 | like memorizing a particular details of a technique

01:10:40.360 | without thinking like, why the hell does this even work?

01:10:43.200 | And if you don't have that,

01:10:44.600 | you get to focus on like,

01:10:46.560 | from like as cliche as it sounds from first principles,

01:10:49.200 | like why the hell, how the hell do I get out of this?

01:10:52.360 | Like, why does this even work?

01:10:53.520 | Why does wrestling work?

01:10:54.880 | Why do you have a bent over posture?

01:10:56.400 | You get those like, start to ask those kinds of questions,

01:10:59.640 | which is kind of interesting

01:11:00.480 | 'cause it's not obvious to me that bent over posture

01:11:02.440 | is the right posture for Jiu-Jitsu, right?

01:11:05.440 | I'm confused actually about that, I don't know.

01:11:07.480 | - About the correct posture?

01:11:08.560 | - Yeah, for Jiu-Jitsu.

01:11:09.840 | Like what's the right answer?

01:11:11.760 | - I think bent over posture is still good for Jiu-Jitsu.

01:11:13.600 | - Even with the Judo and all of that.

01:11:15.960 | Like why are so many Jiu-Jitsu people like at a high level,

01:11:19.120 | the posture is higher up?

01:11:21.240 | - Well, I think wrestling posture is just a bit too low

01:11:26.000 | because it's not necessary, right?

01:11:27.360 | If wrestlers are like low enough to the ground

01:11:29.560 | where your hands could touch the mat,

01:11:31.320 | but in Jiu-Jitsu, you know,

01:11:32.560 | it's kind of a mix between like wrestling and like Judo

01:11:37.120 | or Greco Roman wrestling.

01:11:39.480 | So I think it's just a bit more relaxed

01:11:43.880 | and it's bent over, but it's not upright.

01:11:46.440 | And it's also not super low.

01:11:48.440 | - Bit more room for error too,

01:11:49.480 | because obviously the Jiu-Jitsu guy's shot

01:11:52.760 | isn't gonna be as athletic or as quick as a wrestler,

01:11:55.480 | especially a wrestler with shoes.

01:11:56.600 | - So it actually comes down to the fact

01:11:57.960 | that Jiu-Jitsu people just on average,

01:11:59.720 | even at the top level are not good at shooting.

01:12:02.560 | - I think so, yeah.

01:12:03.400 | I think obviously, I mean,

01:12:04.880 | all the wrestlers in American stuff,

01:12:06.640 | they're starting super early, super young.

01:12:09.360 | You know what I mean?

01:12:10.200 | They've, by the time they get to the same age we are really

01:12:14.080 | in our sport and stuff,

01:12:14.920 | they've spent much longer doing the actual sport

01:12:18.440 | than the average Jiu-Jitsu guy.

01:12:20.920 | - And then there's another level of wrestling, of course,

01:12:23.160 | with the Soviet block.

01:12:25.880 | That's just unachievable for your kind.

01:12:27.960 | - Who knew an Australian rugby?

01:12:30.880 | - Yeah.

01:12:31.720 | - A former rugby player.

01:12:32.720 | - Rugby, is that kind of like American football,

01:12:34.480 | but much less money?

01:12:35.640 | Is that what that is?

01:12:36.480 | - Much less money, much tougher, I would say.

01:12:39.880 | But who knew that the cure

01:12:43.680 | to the Dagestani wrestling were the Aussies?

01:12:47.480 | - Were the Aussies?

01:12:49.000 | Okay, let's go there.

01:12:50.040 | (laughing)

01:12:52.280 | Your friend, your training partner, Alexander Volkanovsky,

01:12:55.960 | you helped him prepare

01:12:56.840 | for the Islam Makachev versus Volkanovsky fight.

01:13:00.120 | Who do you think, first of all, won that fight?

01:13:03.040 | - That's a tricky one.

01:13:04.640 | - How is that the tricky question?

01:13:06.360 | - I will say when I was--

01:13:08.640 | - All the shit talk you've been doing,

01:13:09.920 | how is that the tricky question?

01:13:12.000 | - When I was in the corner going into the fifth,

01:13:14.120 | I personally believed live

01:13:16.000 | that Volkanovsky probably needed a finish

01:13:19.520 | to take the victory.

01:13:20.360 | - But you have to think that way, right, in general?

01:13:22.120 | Or are you like legitimately--

01:13:23.800 | - It's a gray area 'cause the judging, who knows?

01:13:26.320 | Plus, I was like, "Wait, we're in Australia,

01:13:28.360 | "where's this bias?"

01:13:29.200 | You know, we've got some Australian judges here.

01:13:31.160 | I was really hoping we'd get a bit of bias on that.

01:13:33.440 | Unfortunately not, hopefully they lose their jobs.

01:13:35.920 | But again, yeah, it was a close fight.

01:13:38.560 | I think sometimes you're blinded in the moment

01:13:40.520 | because again, everyone counted Volkanovsky out,

01:13:43.640 | the crowd's behind him,

01:13:45.000 | so everything he does is gonna get a huge cheer.

01:13:47.880 | Your bias towards the smaller guy,

01:13:51.400 | your bias towards the underdog,

01:13:52.960 | so you sort of, whatever the underdog does

01:13:55.240 | has a bigger impact in your mind.

01:13:56.680 | And sometimes that can bias as the fight goes along.

01:13:59.880 | But yeah, super, super close fight.

01:14:01.720 | I would really love them to have a rematch,

01:14:05.480 | but obviously that's gonna hold up both divisions,

01:14:07.040 | so I don't know if they'll be able to do it.

01:14:08.920 | - Do you think they'll do a rematch soon?

01:14:10.480 | I mean, that was an epic fight.

01:14:12.320 | I was listening to the fight companion during it.

01:14:14.120 | - They all thought Volkanovsky.

01:14:15.440 | - So they biased strongly the opinion?

01:14:18.040 | - Round two was the tricky one.

01:14:20.480 | Round two's the tricky one.

01:14:21.760 | - Anyway, I'd love to see that like run it back

01:14:24.680 | and do three actually.

01:14:26.160 | 'Cause there's an epic fight.

01:14:27.760 | What was the brief conversation you had

01:14:30.840 | with Islam Makhachev and his team?

01:14:33.320 | - I didn't know how he would take the joke

01:14:34.400 | 'cause obviously Khabib tried to flying eagle kick

01:14:36.960 | Dylan Danis in the face.

01:14:38.360 | So I wasn't sure how my humor would go.

01:14:40.880 | But I mean, Dylan must've said some worse things to me.

01:14:43.640 | I was just playing around.

01:14:45.360 | I mean, you can't really take anything I say serious,

01:14:47.840 | come across like an idiot.

01:14:49.160 | But so when he was coming up to me afterwards,

01:14:51.560 | I was like, oh, I don't know what he's gonna say.

01:14:53.520 | And again, maybe he would have been more upset

01:14:56.000 | if he had lost, but he just received the judge's decision.

01:14:59.280 | But he came up, I went to check his hand,

01:15:00.920 | he gave me a big hug and then pretended to throw me.

01:15:03.560 | And then I thought the interaction was over

01:15:04.920 | and then he circled back.

01:15:06.040 | So that's why it was so awkward.

01:15:06.920 | I was like, oh, he's coming back.

01:15:07.800 | He wants to say, he wants something else.

01:15:10.120 | But he just said, why didn't you teach your boy

01:15:11.400 | how to escape the body triangle?

01:15:13.720 | - Oh, wow, interesting.

01:15:16.120 | What did you say to that?

01:15:17.120 | - I said, well, I mean, obviously you've got to learn

01:15:19.080 | how to finish a rear naked choke.

01:15:20.960 | - Is that what you said?

01:15:21.800 | - No, I didn't say that.

01:15:22.640 | (both laughing)

01:15:23.840 | No, I was just laughing, I was laughing.

01:15:25.240 | But then they ushered us out.

01:15:26.360 | They were like, get out of here

01:15:27.200 | before the Aussie crowd attacks here.

01:15:28.960 | - What do you think about the body triangle position

01:15:30.760 | that we're in?

01:15:31.800 | It seemed like for the first time,

01:15:33.440 | it seems almost like Volk was dominant in that position,

01:15:37.280 | which is kind of weird.

01:15:38.480 | - I mean, damage is meant to trump control, MMA judging.

01:15:42.640 | Damage is the number one factor.

01:15:44.400 | - Do you think the judges saw that?

01:15:47.160 | What did they score that as?

01:15:49.520 | - I think they all scored four towards Islam.

01:15:52.880 | - Yeah. - Three and five.

01:15:54.600 | Two of the judges scored towards Volk's.

01:15:57.000 | One of the judges scored three for Islam.

01:15:59.640 | One of them, it was 49, 46 for one of them,

01:16:02.480 | and the other ones were 48, 47.

01:16:04.560 | I think that, again, the confusing round was round two.

01:16:07.160 | I don't think anyone scored the body triangle round

01:16:09.520 | for Volk's, which I wish they had.

01:16:11.240 | - Volkanovsky was and is still arguably

01:16:14.280 | pound for pound greatest fighter in the world.

01:16:16.360 | How long have you known him?

01:16:17.400 | - I don't know the first,

01:16:18.360 | I met him before he was in the UFC,

01:16:20.200 | when I used to live in Melbourne.

01:16:21.040 | He came down to train at Absolute.

01:16:22.440 | - Yeah.

01:16:23.280 | - And then we really connected on Ultimate Fighter.

01:16:26.560 | One of these guys he was gonna bring to Ultimate Fighter,

01:16:28.280 | Brad Riddell pulled out last second.

01:16:30.280 | So he called me when I was in Puerto Rico,

01:16:32.640 | and he's like, "Do you wanna coach on Tough for five weeks?"

01:16:35.240 | And like I said, Puerto Rico was apocalypse now.

01:16:38.160 | I was like, "Yeah, get me out of here."

01:16:40.480 | So I jumped on that opportunity,

01:16:42.520 | and we were in Vegas five weeks together.

01:16:44.480 | 'Cause he was meant to fight Ortega,

01:16:46.200 | and then he got hit with COVID real bad.

01:16:48.360 | Got stuck in, I think he was in hospital

01:16:51.120 | for maybe one to two weeks.

01:16:52.880 | And then before he flew back to Australia,

01:16:54.520 | they were like, "All right, maybe we just do you guys

01:16:56.520 | "as the Ultimate Fighter coaches."

01:16:57.720 | So I jumped on board with that.

01:16:59.840 | And that's really when we've become close.

01:17:02.320 | Obviously I was useful in the Ortega fight,

01:17:04.000 | helping him get out of submissions.

01:17:06.040 | He fought then Korean zombie Max Holloway.

01:17:07.680 | I basically just held the bucket at that point in the corner,

01:17:10.520 | couple striking fights.

01:17:12.480 | And then again, yeah, we had to tackle the Islam problem.

01:17:14.560 | So I did spend five to six weeks down there

01:17:17.120 | preparing for that.

01:17:18.320 | - How did you tackle the Islam problem?

01:17:22.020 | - How do I tackle?

01:17:23.720 | - Was you somebody who barely knows anything about wrestling,

01:17:27.440 | having to help-

01:17:28.280 | - Obviously it doesn't take much,

01:17:30.160 | especially wrestling.

01:17:31.260 | - Did the beard help or like what?

01:17:34.160 | In all seriousness, what were some of the key ideas

01:17:37.800 | that you worked on with Volkanovsky to prepare for it?

01:17:42.120 | - I had the help of Frank Hickman.

01:17:43.480 | Hickman was down there too,

01:17:44.400 | one of the Hickman brothers wrestling coach.

01:17:46.320 | So we were sort of like problem solving.

01:17:48.160 | And I mean, basically we were confident

01:17:50.920 | in Volk's fence wrestling, his cage work.

01:17:54.000 | He's super good on the cage,

01:17:55.840 | super like under-respected in that position.

01:17:59.560 | And we knew that if you're able to take the scrambles

01:18:01.800 | to the cage, he would be effective against Islam.

01:18:04.640 | 'Cause again, Islam is background in Sambo freestyle

01:18:08.080 | wrestling, but I mean, honestly,

01:18:10.380 | he's probably got the same experience on the cage as Volk.

01:18:12.680 | Obviously some of those wrestling skills

01:18:15.400 | will translate very well to the cage,

01:18:17.040 | but the cage is still somewhat of a gray area equalizer.

01:18:20.600 | And Volk's again, incredible ability to stand up,

01:18:22.920 | incredible defense on the cage,

01:18:25.160 | which you saw we worked on strategies to get up

01:18:27.720 | and a ton of submission defense.

01:18:29.680 | Islam loves Kimuras, obviously re-enact from the back,

01:18:33.200 | arm bars, those are sort of,

01:18:35.200 | and arm triangles, dominant submissions.

01:18:37.960 | But again, the guys he submitted, not grapplers.

01:18:41.560 | Apart from Charles Oliveira.

01:18:44.280 | And again, Charles Oliveira was basically knocked out

01:18:46.560 | at that point.

01:18:47.400 | So it was still impressive he submitted him.

01:18:48.720 | But again, I always told people this,

01:18:50.560 | they thought it was crazy.

01:18:51.440 | I was like, Charles Oliveira versus Islam

01:18:53.400 | in a grappling match.

01:18:54.640 | Oliveira is gonna win that match.

01:18:57.080 | - Like submission grappling.

01:18:59.160 | - Submission grappling, yeah.

01:19:00.080 | So in a pure grappling skillset,

01:19:02.000 | I think Oliveira is a more dangerous grappler.

01:19:04.240 | So we didn't even come into it thinking Islam

01:19:06.160 | was this unstoppable boogeyman

01:19:08.520 | that people make him out to be.

01:19:10.460 | So we approached it from that,

01:19:11.880 | just focused on the techniques,

01:19:14.200 | ability to get back up, using turtle to get back up,

01:19:16.680 | using turtle to scoot to the cage to get back up

01:19:19.160 | and hand fighting from there, keeping it pretty safe.

01:19:22.000 | But what makes Volk so special, I think is his gas tank.

01:19:24.560 | Gas tank and his willpower.

01:19:26.920 | He's just unbreakable.

01:19:28.240 | The Dagestani guys, Khabib, Islam,

01:19:31.160 | they are good at submissions,

01:19:32.920 | but they break guys mentally and they fatigue him.

01:19:36.840 | And then they take the submission that's offered.

01:19:38.800 | Oliveira is a guy that can jump on submissions

01:19:41.000 | and have an incredible technical ability

01:19:43.320 | to finish those submissions,

01:19:44.240 | whether you're fresh or you're tired.

01:19:46.580 | And then you combine that with Volkanovski,

01:19:48.120 | who incredible willpower, never gets tired.

01:19:51.360 | You're never gonna break him.

01:19:52.900 | And as you saw, he only attempted one submission

01:19:55.200 | the whole fight.

01:19:56.040 | - Is that learned?

01:19:57.140 | Is that trained?

01:19:58.420 | Or are you just born with that mental toughness?

01:20:01.760 | - It's a good question.

01:20:02.600 | I mean, he's like an anomaly.

01:20:03.680 | Like the entire fight camp, not nervous at all,

01:20:06.480 | supremely confident.

01:20:08.200 | The whole fight week, completely confident.

01:20:11.080 | He just has an attitude like,

01:20:12.440 | "Oh, everyone cast me out, we'll see."

01:20:14.140 | You know what I mean?

01:20:14.980 | Islam, he's like, "Let's see."

01:20:15.800 | - No doubt.

01:20:16.640 | - No doubt at all.

01:20:18.040 | Super relaxed up until about five minutes before.

01:20:20.640 | And then he starts to amp himself up.

01:20:22.120 | He's like, "You are not taking this belt from my family."

01:20:25.040 | He gets into that sort of mindset.

01:20:26.840 | - He actually says that out loud?

01:20:29.060 | - You can't teach that survival.

01:20:31.240 | He didn't even take a fight.

01:20:32.640 | - Have you guys ever been pushed to the limit like that

01:20:37.460 | or broken in a grappling match?

01:20:39.380 | - I'll do it in practice.

01:20:41.600 | I'll push myself to,

01:20:43.280 | I think I might pass out or die or something.

01:20:45.800 | As far as how tired you get.

01:20:48.920 | 'Cause in a match-

01:20:50.760 | - You try not to ever get close to that in a match.

01:20:54.000 | - Yeah, you try to, 'cause it's important to understand

01:20:57.280 | where your exhaustion point is.

01:21:01.520 | But yeah, if you have to push to that limit in a match,

01:21:04.000 | you're probably doing something wrong.

01:21:06.360 | Like you see in matches where guys sprint the last minute,

01:21:09.480 | they try to win the match the last minute.

01:21:11.440 | And it's like, you definitely had some mistakes

01:21:13.160 | leading up to that if you have to go balls to the wall.

01:21:17.100 | - Okay, but has there been ever times in competition,

01:21:20.120 | especially early on, 'cause you wrestled pretty hard

01:21:22.960 | and wrestling is pretty exhausting.

01:21:25.380 | Not wrestling, but wrestling style kind of thing,

01:21:28.580 | going against the best people in the world.

01:21:31.260 | - Yeah, I mean, I definitely,

01:21:32.780 | again, I think in practice it's important to

01:21:35.980 | do that hard work that way competition is much easier.

01:21:40.500 | I think if you red line in practice

01:21:42.440 | and you really push to death's door,

01:21:45.560 | then once you're in competition and you're working with,

01:21:48.580 | you're being fresh in a comp, I mean, it's much better.

01:21:52.840 | - Have you ever been to that thing where Dan Gable

01:21:54.760 | talks about always wanting to be to a place

01:21:57.400 | where you can't get off the mat?

01:21:59.320 | Like you work so hard in the training room,

01:22:01.700 | you can't get off the mat.

01:22:02.880 | I think he says he's failed at that in his career.

01:22:05.380 | He was always able to at least crawl off the mat.

01:22:08.980 | - Yeah, I definitely never like actually died on the mat,

01:22:11.640 | but I felt like I was gonna die.

01:22:13.560 | - Sure, sure.

01:22:14.720 | What about you?

01:22:16.820 | Do you quit all the time?

01:22:17.660 | - I get a light cramp.

01:22:18.480 | I'm like, you know what, you got me, man.

01:22:19.560 | Let's do this against him.

01:22:21.720 | - If I'm asking Craig for a role,

01:22:23.840 | he's in the bathroom somewhere.

01:22:26.340 | - Do you see the value of pushing yourself

01:22:29.680 | to that place where you're knocking on death's door?

01:22:32.360 | - Yeah, but within safety,

01:22:33.840 | 'cause obviously the most serious injuries occur

01:22:36.400 | when you're tired, over-training and stuff like that.

01:22:38.600 | So I think like taking a page out of what

01:22:40.900 | those MMA fighters do, especially Vox with his training.

01:22:43.540 | Like he's not necessarily pushing crazy in each round,

01:22:46.700 | but he's doing extra conditioning, assault bike stuff,

01:22:49.220 | crazy workouts outside.

01:22:51.140 | He does do some crazy training workouts, but all safe.

01:22:55.920 | Very safe.

01:22:56.760 | Like when he's redlining like that in the training room,

01:22:58.720 | it's a very controlled, safe setting.

01:23:00.460 | I think to do that in jiu-jitsu

01:23:02.980 | against some of these lunatics out there

01:23:04.400 | that are trying to kill you,

01:23:05.240 | especially when you have a name, can be dangerous.

01:23:08.280 | - So your approach to jiu-jitsu is don't warm up

01:23:10.420 | and don't try too hard.

01:23:12.100 | - No, it's that.

01:23:13.980 | - For safety, no, for safety.

01:23:15.340 | - Yeah, longevity, you know.

01:23:16.820 | - And talk shit about Russians.

01:23:19.180 | I got it, I got it, I hear you.

01:23:21.640 | Oh, you mentioned cage work.

01:23:23.300 | What's interesting to you that you learned

01:23:26.100 | over all this time about cage work?

01:23:27.620 | What's interesting about the dynamics of that?

01:23:31.260 | Are you talking about both like the control

01:23:34.340 | in the dominant position,

01:23:35.340 | but also getting up from the bottom

01:23:37.220 | while you're against the cage, all of that?

01:23:39.140 | - The added dimension of that cage,

01:23:41.540 | that wall being there changes a lot of stuff, right?

01:23:44.020 | So obviously in some ways,

01:23:45.700 | it's a much lower impact wrestling style

01:23:47.580 | because you can't be sprawled on.

01:23:49.260 | You can shoot, the cage is gonna block their feet,

01:23:51.620 | you're gonna be able to chase down their hips.

01:23:53.180 | It's just a completely different fight.

01:23:55.020 | And again, because of Islam's judo skills,

01:23:58.420 | that upper body controls,

01:23:59.560 | you see he's able to use against the cage,

01:24:01.940 | like the inside trips,

01:24:03.860 | sort of the Uchimada style, Hara-Goshi throws.

01:24:06.780 | So obviously those skills do translate,

01:24:08.580 | but yeah, I think the cage is a great equalizer

01:24:11.540 | for a lot of things like athleticism and stuff.

01:24:13.580 | It takes away a huge speed advantage aspect of the fight.

01:24:18.580 | - So he's really good at standing up.

01:24:20.140 | What is there, I assume he learned all of that from you

01:24:23.100 | and your instructional just stand up.

01:24:25.420 | - I mean, we were so confident.

01:24:26.740 | I was like, you know what?

01:24:27.860 | Why don't we put this thing out a month before the fight?

01:24:30.540 | Maybe the illegal download hasn't made its way to Russia yet,

01:24:33.780 | but it was there for him.

01:24:36.260 | - Can you explain to me what's in the instructional

01:24:38.940 | just stand up?

01:24:39.940 | Like what are the ideas?

01:24:41.820 | - What are you, I mean, the old school way to stand up,

01:24:43.860 | people talk about the technical get up,

01:24:45.220 | you know, the old Gracie, you put the hand,

01:24:46.780 | but I mean, that doesn't work.

01:24:48.340 | It hasn't worked for 20 years.

01:24:49.300 | You know, if you look at everyone that gets up in MMA,

01:24:51.140 | they're using turtle to get up.

01:24:52.700 | They're using wrestling to get up.

01:24:54.940 | You know what I mean?

01:24:55.780 | Which is a counter to what pure jujitsu says.

01:24:58.700 | They say, don't expose the back.

01:24:59.980 | Don't ever expose your back.

01:25:02.140 | I think jujitsu is a terrible way to get back to the feet

01:25:05.600 | because if you were to retain guarding a half guard

01:25:08.340 | or close guard, super hard positions to get up.

01:25:10.780 | You're basically putting yourself in a leg tuck

01:25:12.300 | for wrestling.

01:25:13.180 | So I think you need to borrow from wrestling

01:25:15.380 | to learn how to get up in an MMA fight.

01:25:17.900 | So basically how to safely expose your own back

01:25:20.820 | while not allowing them to get hooks

01:25:23.220 | and use that to get back up,

01:25:24.540 | or at least not allow them to get two hooks.

01:25:27.100 | - And that applies for MMA especially.

01:25:29.060 | - For MMA especially, because obviously striking

01:25:32.180 | is a factor, but if they are striking,

01:25:34.880 | they don't have locked hands around your body,

01:25:37.220 | means you are able to move.

01:25:38.860 | You are able to make an attempt to get back up.

01:25:40.660 | They have to choose between control, submission, or strikes.

01:25:45.660 | - Post from Reddit, why does Craig Jones push so hard

01:25:48.420 | for a bottom is bad jujitsu?

01:25:51.420 | What is so bad about playing bottom guard

01:25:53.420 | such as half guard or delahee?

01:25:55.660 | Those are the two options.

01:25:56.660 | - No one likes a bottom.

01:25:57.940 | - Why would I want to get up?

01:26:00.180 | It's the question for all of you.

01:26:01.800 | Is the bottom a bad place to be?

01:26:03.700 | I mean, the bottom's bad

01:26:04.920 | if you don't want that guy on top of you.

01:26:06.840 | That's the way I look at it.

01:26:08.240 | - That sounds like something a cowboy would say,

01:26:11.360 | but I don't know if that has much meaning.

01:26:13.560 | I think the point of jujitsu is both are dangerous,

01:26:16.480 | being on bottom and on top.

01:26:18.280 | - I think the longer the match is,

01:26:20.120 | probably favorites the top guy more,

01:26:22.280 | just 'cause every movement the bottom guy makes

01:26:24.120 | is probably carrying your weight,

01:26:26.040 | carrying that gravity on top of you.

01:26:27.720 | So I think it's a bit more efficient

01:26:30.160 | passing from the top as opposed to sweeping from bottom.

01:26:32.960 | - Bottom's reactive.

01:26:34.340 | Top is active.

01:26:35.540 | The top player decides how to engage,

01:26:38.540 | how to approach the guard.

01:26:39.380 | They can use angles, they can use footwork,

01:26:40.940 | they can throw people, throw the legs by.

01:26:43.860 | So it's an active position.

01:26:45.180 | Bottom's reactive.

01:26:46.020 | Reactive, you're going to get fatigued.

01:26:48.220 | - Yeah, I think it's very difficult

01:26:50.180 | to gas somebody out while playing guard,

01:26:53.420 | but I think it's very easy to gas somebody out

01:26:56.180 | when attempting to pass it.

01:26:57.740 | - Well, you guys are talking about gassing people out,

01:26:59.740 | but is there more dangers from the bottom,

01:27:02.540 | like in terms of submissions

01:27:03.840 | and all that kind of stuff, or no?

01:27:05.320 | - I'm back and forth, 'cause I'm a top player,

01:27:07.880 | but I understand the value of being on bottom.

01:27:10.360 | When I do play guard, bottom,

01:27:12.240 | I feel like the submissions come much easier.

01:27:15.720 | And when I'm on top, they come also pretty easy,

01:27:19.520 | but maybe I just take a different route.

01:27:22.200 | - Talking to two cowboys talking about you.

01:27:24.240 | (laughing)

01:27:25.480 | - Top on the straights, bottom in the shades.

01:27:27.280 | That's Nicky.

01:27:28.120 | - What was the hardest part of the training

01:27:30.560 | for the training camp for Volkanovski?

01:27:32.440 | Like, you're just experiencing world-class

01:27:35.180 | MMA fighters training, and given your approach

01:27:38.740 | to jiu-jitsu of not trying too hard no matter what.

01:27:41.460 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:27:42.300 | I mean, from my perspective,

01:27:43.580 | there's a lot of pressure for that.

01:27:45.220 | You know, like, that's a lot of pressure

01:27:48.420 | for me to go in and think that I could possibly

01:27:50.580 | figure out a way to help this guy,

01:27:52.940 | address this guy that's basically never been beaten.

01:27:55.140 | I think he got knocked out once,

01:27:56.260 | but basically not really even been put in bad positions.

01:27:59.860 | You know what I mean?

01:28:00.700 | So that's a lot of pressure on me,

01:28:01.520 | especially 'cause Volkanovski's such a great guy.

01:28:04.820 | Jiu-jitsu's different, you know?

01:28:05.660 | Like, you coach a guy who loses, he has time to tap,

01:28:08.780 | but in MMA, you could get severely hurt.

01:28:11.140 | There's a lot more weight in what you need to do as a coach.

01:28:13.740 | You have a greater sense of responsibility

01:28:16.040 | to their health and wellbeing.

01:28:16.980 | You know, like, obviously I know Volk's kids,

01:28:19.020 | I know his wife, you know what I mean?

01:28:20.620 | They're putting faith in you to not just win the fight,

01:28:23.980 | but keep this man safe, you know?

01:28:26.260 | So from my perspective, a hell of a lot more pressure

01:28:30.580 | coaching him as an MMA fighter.

01:28:32.560 | - So almost like the psychological aspect

01:28:34.560 | of doing the best you can for him.

01:28:38.620 | - Exactly, yep, yep.

01:28:39.820 | - What was the hardest about the actual training?

01:28:42.920 | Was it the technical aspect of trying to figure out

01:28:44.720 | the puzzle of Islam, or was it being a good training partner

01:28:48.760 | in figuring out how the grappling would work,

01:28:53.640 | basically playing your best impression of Makachev?

01:28:56.400 | Were you trying to actually impersonate him?

01:28:58.080 | Like, not just visually, but like in style.

01:29:02.460 | - Yeah, definitely, definitely visually.

01:29:04.540 | - You're not as good looking, but go ahead.

01:29:06.540 | - Yeah, a little taller, but no.

01:29:09.940 | In terms of the training, yeah, I mean,

01:29:11.540 | Islam's known as incredibly strong guy,

01:29:13.180 | so obviously I'm heavier than Islam,

01:29:15.780 | so theoretically I should be able to replicate

01:29:18.380 | that strength difference.

01:29:19.480 | And then in terms of grappling,

01:29:20.940 | targeting those submissions that Islam does,

01:29:24.200 | like focusing on those in the training room,

01:29:26.440 | focusing on the way he holds half guard,

01:29:28.740 | and really, in the grappling sense,

01:29:30.780 | trying to replicate him on the ground,

01:29:32.060 | and then, yeah, I wrestle with him on the wall a ton,

01:29:34.700 | trying to replicate, obviously to the best of my ability,

01:29:36.980 | a lot of the stuff he does on the wall.

01:29:39.020 | Body lock heavy, inside trip, uchi matas,

01:29:42.660 | and just constantly putting the work on Vox,

01:29:45.380 | you know what I mean?

01:29:46.220 | Like constantly chaining attacks against him,

01:29:49.180 | really replicate that.

01:29:50.020 | - As he's trying to get up and escape

01:29:52.260 | and all that kind of stuff, so the submissions,

01:29:54.540 | like both judo and submissions, just attack and attacking.

01:29:57.200 | - Exactly, and there's only so much you can do, really,

01:29:58.720 | 'cause obviously he's been,

01:30:00.180 | I think he's been fighting a long time,

01:30:01.820 | so it's like you're trying to polish

01:30:04.280 | what he already is good at.

01:30:06.000 | You can't just completely create entirely new game for him

01:30:09.400 | in the space of six weeks.

01:30:11.160 | So you're trying to take what he's already effective at,

01:30:13.460 | add to it, and luckily a lot of the stuff

01:30:15.540 | he's already very good at was easy to add to for the fight.

01:30:19.920 | - Question from Reddit.

01:30:21.280 | I'm very curious why other MMA fighters

01:30:23.240 | don't employ high-profile grapplers

01:30:24.840 | from B-Team and New Wave to improve their grappling.

01:30:28.280 | That's from this subreddit.

01:30:29.640 | By now it's clear that they are levels above

01:30:33.480 | almost everyone in MMA, simply because fighters there

01:30:36.320 | don't specialize in grappling,

01:30:37.940 | but it doesn't seem like fighters, even champions,

01:30:40.860 | get training partners from the most successful teams.

01:30:42.960 | Why is that the case?

01:30:44.440 | From your experience, why doesn't Kabir call you?

01:30:49.440 | - You want now?

01:30:51.960 | - Nah.

01:30:52.800 | (laughing)

01:30:55.440 | Put in a good word for me.

01:30:57.240 | - Oh, I will.

01:30:58.480 | (laughing)

01:31:00.960 | - That's all right, he takes a joke pretty well.

01:31:02.560 | - Yeah.

01:31:03.960 | No, no, you'll be welcome with open arms.

01:31:06.440 | (laughing)

01:31:07.960 | - I think your average Jiu-Jitsu coach,

01:31:09.520 | MMA fighters have bad experience with Jiu-Jitsu guys.

01:31:12.040 | Jiu-Jitsu doesn't have a massive place in MMA.

01:31:14.280 | Obviously rounds, stand-ups, it's hard to submit people.

01:31:18.000 | Your average Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt

01:31:19.960 | doesn't know anything about holding a guy down,

01:31:22.240 | doesn't know anything about how to stand up.

01:31:24.320 | So I think if you overly utilize that Jiu-Jitsu guy

01:31:28.080 | that hasn't had experience in more modern No Gi

01:31:31.080 | or training MMA fighters previously,

01:31:33.200 | it's gonna be a complete waste of time to them.

01:31:34.800 | I think they're smart enough to realize that.

01:31:37.000 | - Do you have, and do you guys,

01:31:38.880 | do you have interest in MMA at all?

01:31:41.400 | Just not even like, well certainly just competing yourself,

01:31:45.200 | but like just understanding the puzzle of MMA.

01:31:48.560 | - Yeah, I mean, I've been a fan of mixed martial arts

01:31:51.080 | for a very long time before I trained Jiu-Jitsu.

01:31:54.920 | Personally, I'd much rather coach than fight.

01:31:58.440 | But I mean, I'd fight somebody for a good check

01:32:01.880 | and I get to pick the opponent, have a proper camp.

01:32:04.940 | - Okay.

01:32:06.720 | (laughing)

01:32:07.560 | - I can think of a good opponent.

01:32:09.160 | - Which dude was that?

01:32:10.340 | All right.

01:32:12.560 | (laughing)

01:32:15.320 | Who do you think is the greatest MMA fighter of all time?

01:32:19.040 | Craig, we can start with you.

01:32:20.720 | Just as a fan of the sport, as somebody who's been deep in it.

01:32:24.040 | - I mean, from my perspective, after that performance,

01:32:26.520 | I'm gonna say Volkanovsky

01:32:27.720 | because he was able to decisively outstrike Max Holloway,

01:32:31.200 | one of the greatest strikers in the sport.

01:32:32.600 | And he was able to hang with the wrestling

01:32:34.800 | of Islam Akhachev.

01:32:36.480 | And in terms of Ortega, he was able to survive Ortega

01:32:39.120 | who has some of the most dangerous submissions in Jiu-Jitsu.

01:32:42.200 | So I think, in my opinion, technically he's the best.

01:32:45.960 | - So even though he technically lost,

01:32:48.680 | he still has a crown.

01:32:50.920 | - I believe so.

01:32:52.240 | Given the size difference, given he's moving up in weight,

01:32:54.600 | I think all those factors really.

01:32:56.280 | - The underdog, everything, the pressure.

01:32:58.920 | - Did you think he would be able to hang

01:33:00.680 | in any of the wrestling exchanges with Islam?

01:33:02.720 | - No, no, no.

01:33:03.560 | I was really surprised.

01:33:05.160 | That's why my eyes, like, it's kind of funny,

01:33:08.560 | like winning at the end of the day,

01:33:10.120 | I feel like judges influence that.

01:33:11.640 | Although I did think Australian judges

01:33:13.280 | would rob the other way,

01:33:14.520 | but I was assuming they kind of,

01:33:17.640 | somebody paid somebody and not enough maybe.

01:33:19.880 | But in general, I just thought he won

01:33:22.840 | sort of in the eyes of what martial arts stands for.

01:33:25.120 | Like sort of go into the fire and survive and thrive

01:33:29.720 | and finish the last round strong,

01:33:32.440 | which is kind of like spiritually is what a victory is.

01:33:36.120 | So I wish he would kept going.

01:33:38.360 | Like-

01:33:39.240 | - Wumble around.

01:33:40.280 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:33:41.120 | That kind of thing.

01:33:41.960 | What about you?

01:33:43.840 | Who do you think, like, who are the fighters you admire?

01:33:46.160 | Like who do you think is the greatest of all time?

01:33:47.880 | - I think the fighter I paid most attention to

01:33:50.000 | was Jon Jones.

01:33:52.360 | You know, he has a great ability

01:33:54.400 | just to mix the high level striking, high level grappling.

01:33:57.720 | Although his, you know, jujitsu by itself isn't,

01:34:02.000 | you know, probably isn't like, you know, super high level,

01:34:04.920 | but his ability to mix everything together,

01:34:06.800 | I would say he's the best.

01:34:08.760 | And he's a fellow, you know, heavier guy, heavyweight now.

01:34:13.360 | So it's nice to see, you know,

01:34:15.720 | how those guys move at that weight.

01:34:18.400 | - And a fellow natural athlete.

01:34:20.000 | (laughing)

01:34:21.200 | See what I did there?

01:34:22.200 | (laughing)

01:34:24.040 | What about you, Nikki?

01:34:25.920 | - Yeah, if I had to pick a goat,

01:34:27.960 | I would probably have to say Khabib,

01:34:29.720 | just because he was undefeated

01:34:32.040 | and he had a very, you know, high finishing rate.

01:34:34.600 | You know, very few of his fights

01:34:36.320 | actually went to a decision.

01:34:38.040 | So he just, overall, he dominated

01:34:40.120 | almost every single opponent he went against.

01:34:42.160 | - The dominance.

01:34:43.440 | I mean, we've been joking about it, but Craig,

01:34:45.800 | what do you think makes the Dagestani fighters so good?

01:34:48.440 | Like from this small region of the world,

01:34:51.120 | so much dominance has come.

01:34:53.720 | - I mean, obviously the amount of freestyle wrestling

01:34:57.520 | champions from that region probably puts their wrestling

01:35:00.560 | above and beyond the best in all of MMA.

01:35:04.200 | And obviously a lot of, even in the Olympics,

01:35:05.800 | a lot of champions out of there, right?

01:35:07.400 | So I think that skillset combines with them

01:35:10.720 | adding effective pin controls on the ground

01:35:13.680 | and jiu-jitsu submissions.

01:35:15.200 | But again, I think it's that hard training.

01:35:17.360 | Those guys like Khabib would maintain that pressure

01:35:20.200 | throughout the entire fight and break guys down.

01:35:21.680 | Their ability to fatigue guys to a breaking point,

01:35:24.720 | I think is something they do best.

01:35:26.920 | - I wonder what that is.

01:35:28.400 | Is that technique?

01:35:29.320 | What is that?

01:35:30.160 | What is it about their upbringing?

01:35:31.640 | 'Cause it's just that part of the world.

01:35:33.920 | What were the Satya brothers

01:35:35.320 | with on the freestyle wrestling side

01:35:37.640 | to all the mixed martial arts people?

01:35:39.360 | Like it must be part of the culture also.

01:35:44.360 | They must be doing something.

01:35:45.960 | I don't think, I haven't seen a convincing explanation

01:35:49.960 | of why yet, of what's specific about their training,

01:35:54.960 | what's specific about their culture that creates that.

01:35:57.900 | Okay, what do you think about like the flip side?

01:36:00.640 | Do you admire somebody like Conor McGregor

01:36:03.360 | who knows how to create a spectacle?

01:36:07.400 | You, Craig, who likes spectacles?

01:36:10.440 | - Spectacles, yeah.

01:36:11.280 | I mean, I really admired early Conor McGregor

01:36:13.600 | 'cause I found him absolutely hilarious.

01:36:15.440 | You know, like I felt like that was peak banter.

01:36:18.920 | I feel like he just took the American world by storm.

01:36:21.960 | Aussies, British, Irish, Kiwis,

01:36:25.440 | I believe we have a way better level of banter

01:36:29.440 | and attacking each other.

01:36:30.680 | And it's almost too easy to pick on Americans

01:36:33.320 | to take themselves very seriously.

01:36:35.240 | I mean, arguably even other parts of the world too,

01:36:37.740 | the far East of Europe, you know?

01:36:39.040 | - But that's the tricky thing with Conor.

01:36:41.200 | I think he was, I feel like you could have gotten

01:36:43.440 | in the same kind of trouble

01:36:45.040 | 'cause the Russians really took everything very seriously.

01:36:48.100 | They weren't joking around.

01:36:49.880 | - Yeah, that's the problem.

01:36:51.160 | It's like, it's a bit of, I mean,

01:36:53.520 | some things he definitely takes too far, you know,

01:36:56.240 | but I felt like early on he had the right balance

01:36:59.920 | where he wouldn't really cross the line,

01:37:01.320 | but he would do enough.

01:37:03.080 | He just took it to another level,

01:37:04.360 | obviously later in his career.

01:37:06.320 | But I think early on, a bit of innocent banter.

01:37:09.040 | - He gets a lot of eyes on the sport though.

01:37:11.240 | He's probably by far the most popular

01:37:13.380 | combat athlete of all time because of that.

01:37:16.040 | I feel like you have to cross the line.

01:37:17.840 | I don't think enough people appreciate

01:37:19.520 | the values he's brought by crossing the line.

01:37:21.840 | - He's making a sacrifice crossing the line.

01:37:23.480 | That's gonna affect him for the rest of his life, you know?

01:37:26.520 | - I see, I don't think so.

01:37:27.360 | I think he can always walk back.

01:37:28.800 | 'Cause I think unlike, people might disagree with this.

01:37:32.440 | I, well, yeah, I thought he always radiated a respect

01:37:37.120 | for the opponent afterwards and underneath it.

01:37:41.560 | It felt like the same way you do.

01:37:43.840 | When I hear you shit talking,

01:37:45.440 | I don't see a person who really means it.

01:37:48.520 | I see a person who's having fun with it.

01:37:50.560 | I always saw Conor McGregor the same way.

01:37:53.500 | I don't know.

01:37:54.340 | But people took it extremely seriously.

01:37:56.760 | But I saw the respect, the common respect

01:37:59.760 | the martial artists have for each other

01:38:01.080 | that felt like it was always there.

01:38:02.560 | - If you don't like that individual,

01:38:05.440 | you're gonna perceive what they say more negatively

01:38:10.440 | than if you obviously were.

01:38:11.680 | So I feel like if you like someone,

01:38:12.960 | you're gonna never think they really crossed the line.

01:38:15.480 | - That's true.

01:38:16.300 | So you're saying I like you.

01:38:17.280 | That's why I'm perceiving you.

01:38:18.680 | You're bullshit in a positive light.

01:38:20.960 | Are there people that hate you?

01:38:22.520 | - I mean, some of the family members at this table.

01:38:26.600 | (all laughing)

01:38:29.000 | - People that really get to know you all hate you.

01:38:32.160 | - The fans love me, the friends hate me.

01:38:34.880 | - It's a good place to be.

01:38:36.680 | Keep your enemies close.

01:38:38.480 | All right.

01:38:39.800 | What do you think is the most important muscle

01:38:41.200 | for Jiu-Jitsu, is it biceps?

01:38:42.560 | - I think a strong back.

01:38:47.760 | I think back one, core second, and then biceps.

01:38:51.160 | - Okay, biceps.

01:38:52.280 | Cool.

01:38:53.120 | Do you legitimately think weightlifting helps Jiu-Jitsu?

01:38:55.760 | It's kind of the discussion under steroids.

01:38:57.560 | It's like the muscle mass and strength

01:39:00.560 | and power and explosiveness, all of that.

01:39:02.760 | - I think sometimes when we're at that upper echelon

01:39:05.440 | of competition, there's only,

01:39:07.320 | there's like little minute battles that you have to win.

01:39:09.480 | And if you're relatively close in technique,

01:39:12.320 | then a lot of times a stronger opponent pulls it out.

01:39:15.360 | - But it could be also just the limitation, right?

01:39:19.360 | You hold position too long.

01:39:21.520 | What about for hobbyists?

01:39:22.680 | Do you recommend weightlifting?

01:39:24.120 | Like when you see people in the gym?

01:39:25.640 | - I always recommend weightlifting.

01:39:27.000 | I almost see muscle as the body's armor, right?

01:39:30.200 | The more armor you have,

01:39:31.640 | the more damage you can kind of take

01:39:33.080 | and maybe recovery is a little bit better.

01:39:36.200 | And I've always seen weightlifting

01:39:37.480 | as a means to stick to my routine.

01:39:40.280 | Like if there's no point in lifting

01:39:41.640 | if you're not eating right and you're not sleeping right.

01:39:43.760 | So if you kind of put it all together,

01:39:45.280 | then it's beneficial.

01:39:47.560 | - What about you guys?

01:39:48.520 | Do you go to the gym?

01:39:49.720 | - I go to the gym, yeah.

01:39:51.640 | Believe it or not.

01:39:52.480 | - Do you go to the hotel gym

01:39:53.320 | to use an elliptical and that butt machine?

01:39:56.920 | - Yeah, I focus on the glutes heavily.

01:39:59.080 | - All right.

01:39:59.920 | (laughs)

01:40:01.600 | What about the injury prevention and so on?

01:40:04.680 | How do you train to minimize the risk of injury?

01:40:08.240 | You guys have all been pretty beat up.

01:40:09.480 | You've gotten a major injury with the ACL.

01:40:12.200 | - Yeah.

01:40:13.160 | - So how do you train to minimize injury?

01:40:14.800 | - Probably not the right guy to ask, eh?

01:40:16.280 | - Yeah.

01:40:17.120 | (laughs)

01:40:17.940 | - Actually, can you talk through your injury?

01:40:19.480 | Like what happened?

01:40:20.440 | - Yeah, so about one week prior to this last ADCC,

01:40:25.360 | I was wrestling with this guy named Kenta

01:40:28.160 | who was also competing.

01:40:29.880 | And I went to go lift him from like a rear body lock

01:40:32.960 | and he hooked the outside of my leg

01:40:34.920 | and we just felt something pop.

01:40:36.440 | He felt a shift with his leg.

01:40:39.440 | And when it first happened,

01:40:42.480 | it hurt for like the first 30 seconds.

01:40:44.720 | And I honestly debated.

01:40:45.920 | I was like, maybe it was just some freak thing.

01:40:48.400 | I was like, I literally thought

01:40:49.680 | about continuing the session.

01:40:51.920 | Then the next day I woke up and it was like super sore.

01:40:55.000 | I was limping around, couldn't do a full squat.

01:40:58.160 | So it pretty much killed all of my training

01:41:02.080 | for the entire week leading up to the event.

01:41:04.120 | So I couldn't train or anything.

01:41:05.960 | Messed up the cut.

01:41:06.920 | Obviously there's added nerves with that too,

01:41:09.120 | you know, when you're not in the gym every day

01:41:10.920 | leading up to the competition.

01:41:12.800 | I went out there.

01:41:14.120 | I wasn't really able to pull guard

01:41:16.040 | 'cause I couldn't get full heel to butt connection,

01:41:18.760 | which is inevitable with playing guard.

01:41:21.800 | And I was very hesitant to shoot as well.

01:41:26.000 | So I came out with the idea

01:41:27.480 | of just trying to use hand fighting

01:41:28.720 | to tire my first opponent out.

01:41:31.840 | And then mainly look to get to under hooks or over hooks

01:41:34.640 | and do mostly upper body wrestling.

01:41:36.840 | In the beginning of the match,

01:41:38.280 | I successfully got to an under hook.

01:41:40.760 | I got to a rear body lock.

01:41:42.560 | He tried to roll and I ended up in top position

01:41:45.520 | in side control, but it was during the no points period.

01:41:48.880 | And then as the match went on,

01:41:51.080 | I gassed out and eventually he ended up taking me down

01:41:55.240 | and then scoring with two hooks on the back.

01:41:58.040 | - So what's the injury?

01:41:59.080 | - Yeah, so I got an MRI actually after the event.

01:42:02.160 | I didn't know- - So you waited,

01:42:03.280 | wait, wait, you waited until after the event?

01:42:05.520 | - Yeah, I waited until after-

01:42:06.720 | - 'Cause like knowledge or ignorance is bliss?

01:42:09.000 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:42:09.840 | I was like, honestly, I don't even wanna know what's wrong.

01:42:12.320 | I was like, I'd just go out there, compete.

01:42:14.120 | You know, I knew it was like the biggest event to date

01:42:18.280 | and I really wanted to do it.

01:42:20.120 | - Did you ever think about not doing it?

01:42:22.000 | - It definitely was a thought in my head,

01:42:24.040 | especially that the day after, you know,

01:42:26.600 | it's always the worst day whenever you have

01:42:28.120 | like a serious injuries the day after.

01:42:30.200 | And I was like, man, I really can't do a full squat.

01:42:32.960 | I was like, I don't even know how I'm gonna be able

01:42:34.520 | to do this.

01:42:35.800 | It got a bit better over as the week went on,

01:42:39.000 | but I was like, man, I have to go out there and compete.

01:42:42.120 | I was like, it'll always be in the back of my mind.

01:42:44.860 | Like, what if, if I ended up pulling out?

01:42:47.360 | - What did you think about this whole?

01:42:49.320 | - I thought it was just being a pussy.

01:42:50.560 | - Yeah.

01:42:51.400 | (laughing)

01:42:52.760 | Just slap him around, just yell at him.

01:42:55.680 | - I don't think we pressured you.

01:42:57.720 | We just say you make your own decision, right?

01:42:59.080 | We're just like, yeah.

01:42:59.920 | - Is that a tricky thing to do?

01:43:01.040 | Like with a heavily, like a serious injury like this?

01:43:05.120 | - We don't know. - Yeah, well, we didn't know.

01:43:06.360 | That was the thing we didn't know.

01:43:07.400 | Honestly, initially I thought it was,

01:43:09.240 | I tore my lateral meniscus,

01:43:11.640 | but that ended up not being the case.

01:43:13.240 | It ended up being a full ACL tear.

01:43:15.040 | I was actually super surprised when I got the MRI results.

01:43:18.640 | So yeah, we didn't know how bad it actually was.

01:43:21.480 | - What do you think about that situation?

01:43:23.760 | - I think Nicky's a tough kid.

01:43:26.440 | And I mean, when you're so close to that competition,

01:43:30.440 | you know, there's not many,

01:43:31.440 | you don't get many opportunities like that

01:43:33.680 | to compete in front of, you know, 15,000 people.

01:43:35.880 | It's like, you know, props to you for pushing through it

01:43:38.720 | and getting it.

01:43:39.560 | And man, he had a close match

01:43:40.920 | with one of the best grapplers in his weight class.

01:43:42.520 | And it's like, you know, a few adjustments here and there.

01:43:45.360 | And especially, you know,

01:43:46.680 | if he was able to train previously leading up to that match,

01:43:50.120 | I think Nicky pulls it out.

01:43:51.520 | - So some of the things you mentioned is nerves.

01:43:53.200 | So there's extra nerves just because you're underprepared.

01:43:56.240 | - Yeah, I mean, you know.

01:43:57.080 | - Feeling underprepared.

01:43:57.960 | - You want to go into a competition with, you know,

01:44:00.040 | the confidence.

01:44:00.880 | I did everything that I could leading up to this event.

01:44:02.800 | I trained as much as I could.

01:44:04.320 | And then when an injury prevents that,

01:44:06.160 | you start to doubt yourself more.

01:44:08.000 | - How do you guys think about injury?

01:44:09.320 | How do you train, you know,

01:44:10.760 | training with the best in the world,

01:44:12.160 | training to be the best in the world and avoiding injury?

01:44:15.880 | 'Cause you've got, you tore your bicep.

01:44:17.760 | - Yeah, I tore a bicep.

01:44:19.120 | - Doing curls or?

01:44:21.040 | - Dude, honestly, I was bodybuilding, you know,

01:44:25.080 | for like seven years.

01:44:26.480 | And no lie, I did, I trained biceps like most days,

01:44:29.320 | like almost every day in those seven years.

01:44:32.680 | Pretty much I injured myself.

01:44:35.240 | - That's so Jersey, man.

01:44:36.400 | - Anything else or just the biceps?

01:44:37.960 | - Just, I mean, no.

01:44:39.080 | (laughing)

01:44:40.600 | Yeah, I injured the bicep.

01:44:42.400 | Pretty much the day before a wrestling practice,

01:44:45.520 | I had like a killer arm day.

01:44:48.280 | And by arm day, I just mean training biceps.

01:44:50.520 | (laughing)

01:44:51.880 | Very rigorously getting a sick pump.

01:44:54.080 | And I go to wrestling practice the next day,

01:44:57.200 | you know, pretty late, I should have been there.

01:44:59.080 | I didn't get a proper warmup in.

01:45:01.040 | And the first thing I do is I shake hands

01:45:02.880 | and I go to shoot a single leg and boom,

01:45:05.800 | I just blew my arm out the first movement I did.

01:45:08.800 | So just not being warmed up properly,

01:45:10.880 | in addition to, you know,

01:45:11.960 | having a very vigorous arm day a few hours prior.

01:45:16.040 | - You hear that about warmup?

01:45:17.840 | So what are some lessons about avoiding injury?

01:45:21.280 | Training at the-

01:45:22.120 | - I would say number one is warming up properly.

01:45:24.320 | Making sure your body's hot before you do hot stuff.

01:45:28.960 | - Okay.

01:45:30.520 | And what does warmup look like for you?

01:45:32.440 | Is it jujitsu or non-jujitsu stuff?

01:45:34.400 | - Yeah, just for a warmup in general,

01:45:36.640 | I'll do something like a, if I'm talking competition,

01:45:39.960 | something like a jog walk back and forth a few times,

01:45:43.400 | then a sprint jog a few times to get that heart rate,

01:45:46.160 | you know, up and down.

01:45:47.560 | And then I'll grab a partner.

01:45:49.080 | I actually just filmed a DVD,

01:45:50.840 | or instructional specifically on the pre-match ritual.

01:45:54.520 | In addition to that, I'll, you know, grab a partner.

01:45:57.080 | I'll drill some movements.

01:45:59.280 | Typically I'll drill some bad things.

01:46:00.640 | Like I'll start from bottom, bottom out,

01:46:02.600 | bottom side control, work out from there.

01:46:04.560 | And in pretty much like 20 minutes in,

01:46:06.600 | I'm hot and I'm ready to go for rounds.

01:46:10.000 | - Well, what about you, Greg?

01:46:11.400 | So what's the way to avoid injury?

01:46:14.240 | What's the worst injury you've had?

01:46:16.520 | - What's the worst injury?

01:46:17.360 | I don't even know.

01:46:18.360 | I'm pretty good, pretty healthy.

01:46:20.000 | - Whenever you quit practice, I'm gonna have some mental.

01:46:22.120 | (laughing)

01:46:23.440 | Has your heart ever been broken?

01:46:25.080 | - Oh, many times, many times.

01:46:26.720 | But there's a thing I notice.

01:46:29.920 | People that spend the most time warming up

01:46:32.760 | are often the most injured.

01:46:34.120 | It's a strong correlation.

01:46:37.680 | (laughing)

01:46:39.840 | - All right, you can't argue with science.

01:46:41.720 | - I remember training with Oliver Tyser,

01:46:43.520 | Oliver Tyser would have a 60 minute warmup.

01:46:46.400 | Surprise, surprise, always injured.

01:46:48.800 | Very common.

01:46:50.160 | I find that very common in the training room.

01:46:51.280 | Now I think people, it's how they train.

01:46:52.920 | Like if you, like me, first sign of discomfort,

01:46:56.360 | back pedal, you know, push through that stuff.

01:46:59.160 | Go too hard, go when you're too tired,

01:47:01.280 | you know what I mean?

01:47:02.120 | Get too emotional in the role.

01:47:03.440 | I feel like those are the times that I've been hurt

01:47:06.200 | where I just like, oh, I can't let this guy get me.

01:47:08.640 | When I have that attitude,

01:47:10.560 | I believe it's how you train and sort of, obviously.

01:47:13.240 | - What does this come from?

01:47:14.080 | Like positionally too?

01:47:15.920 | Like, 'cause you're training against some killers.

01:47:17.880 | I mean, you're training with him

01:47:20.560 | and going probably pretty hard.

01:47:22.080 | - If Frank gets a little tired,

01:47:23.120 | he's like, yeah, I'm good for today.

01:47:24.720 | - Once a month with Nicky, that's it.

01:47:27.040 | - And then you quit like 30 seconds in.

01:47:28.840 | - Yeah, you know, you gotta be safe.

01:47:31.400 | - I like it.

01:47:34.240 | What about you?

01:47:35.080 | What have you learned from the ACL, Taryn?

01:47:37.320 | - Through rehab, yeah.

01:47:38.360 | Yeah, rehab definitely would help.

01:47:40.600 | - Oh, so you haven't been like-

01:47:43.680 | - I didn't get surgery.

01:47:44.880 | I didn't do, essentially, any rehab.

01:47:47.640 | I just have no ACL in my left leg.

01:47:49.400 | - So what's it like having no-

01:47:50.600 | - The surgeon goes, you've got two options,

01:47:52.720 | surgery, rehab only.

01:47:53.880 | Nicky goes, I'll do nothing.

01:47:55.640 | - Definitely should pick up on the rehab.

01:48:00.920 | - What's rehab for that look like?

01:48:03.400 | Like twice a day of doing some weird-

01:48:07.200 | like bands or something.

01:48:08.800 | - It's good he's learned some valuable lessons

01:48:11.640 | about taking care of his body.

01:48:13.840 | - What's it like just training with no ACL?

01:48:16.480 | - So at the beginning, it was definitely a little iffy.

01:48:19.560 | I would have an occasional buckle.

01:48:21.720 | Like I'd just be wrestling with somebody

01:48:23.080 | and go to step back and it buckled backwards a bit.

01:48:26.320 | But honestly, now, I haven't had a single buckle instance

01:48:29.200 | in a while.

01:48:30.040 | It feels 100% normal when I train.

01:48:33.200 | It feels better than my other knee, to be honest.

01:48:35.040 | Like I had my meniscus taken out in my right leg

01:48:38.080 | and that one gets sore more often than the no ACL leg.

01:48:41.900 | - Okay, all right.

01:48:42.740 | So putting that aside, is there wisdom you've learned

01:48:46.880 | from that experience?

01:48:48.360 | - Yeah, definitely should be doing rehab and prehab.

01:48:53.360 | I think that, especially if you're a hobbyist

01:48:56.080 | or a professional athlete, you should be lifting,

01:49:00.760 | whether you're rehabbing an injury

01:49:02.520 | or just for injury prevention.

01:49:04.360 | - So I'm actually closer to, correct,

01:49:06.320 | 'cause I've trained my whole life, like pretty hard.

01:49:10.040 | Obviously just a hobbyist, but like twice a day,

01:49:13.200 | did judo, wrestling, all that.

01:49:14.960 | Never broke anything, never injured.

01:49:17.020 | Kind of like similar philosophy, except like last year,

01:49:21.600 | I guess a year and a half ago,

01:49:23.200 | I got a tiny like groin pull injury

01:49:26.160 | and it still hasn't healed.

01:49:27.720 | And I've been using your approach of not giving a shit.

01:49:31.320 | - Yeah.

01:49:32.160 | - And like, surely this is gonna heal.

01:49:34.200 | It'll be fine, but it hasn't.

01:49:36.240 | But of course, if I was like an actual athlete,

01:49:38.080 | I would like probably still train through it

01:49:40.000 | and just fuck it, figure it out.

01:49:41.640 | But when you have other stuff going on,

01:49:42.840 | you just kind of wait it out.

01:49:44.640 | - Yeah.

01:49:45.480 | - But no, I think probably rehab,

01:49:46.880 | especially as you get older,

01:49:47.960 | you have to do that kind of stuff.

01:49:49.320 | - I think it's important for people to, you know,

01:49:51.800 | determine whether what they're going through is an injury

01:49:54.880 | or they're just hurt a little bit.

01:49:56.400 | 'Cause injury, you know, for sure,

01:49:57.680 | take time, rehab it and get better.

01:49:59.520 | But a lot of people like they'll stub a toe or something,

01:50:01.360 | like you're out for a few weeks, you know, so.

01:50:03.960 | - Well, that's the problem with the injury I have.

01:50:06.600 | It feels like a stubbed toe.

01:50:08.720 | So I was like, "Eh, I'll just wait a couple of days.

01:50:10.720 | "It'll be fine."

01:50:11.560 | And then a couple of days later, it's not fine.

01:50:13.280 | And you wait, and then I never got an MRI,

01:50:15.600 | never got any of that.

01:50:16.760 | It's like, I'm sure I'll be fine.

01:50:18.800 | Yeah, so it's hard to know sometimes.

01:50:20.960 | It's hard to know.

01:50:24.520 | I feel like a lot of people will just not check it out

01:50:28.040 | and be fine.

01:50:28.880 | 'Cause there's several failure cases.

01:50:31.280 | There is a failure case of where everything is a stubbed toe.

01:50:34.520 | You're like, "Fuck it."

01:50:35.720 | Like you're bleeding everywhere.

01:50:38.520 | Yeah, it's fine, whatever.

01:50:40.480 | So you have to be careful.

01:50:41.320 | A lot of people can fall into that too.

01:50:44.440 | I think I'm in that category.

01:50:45.600 | Go to the doctor.

01:50:46.440 | Why do you go to the doctor?

01:50:48.280 | - Your best approach is typically wait

01:50:50.320 | until something else gets hurt

01:50:52.160 | so that you'll forget about the grain.

01:50:54.400 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:50:55.240 | That's what I was hoping.

01:50:56.440 | I was hoping to get hurt.

01:50:58.480 | Waiting for the broken heart, maybe.

01:51:01.240 | - Okay, that was very helpful.

01:51:03.560 | Oh, you mentioned you're doing a whole thing

01:51:07.120 | on the pre-match ritual.

01:51:08.160 | Can you kind of preview what's involved

01:51:10.400 | in your pre-match ritual?

01:51:12.360 | - It's pretty big in the wrestling culture

01:51:14.280 | and the fighting culture,

01:51:15.120 | like kind of what to do before your competition.

01:51:18.280 | But I think a few people are just kind of missing out

01:51:21.240 | exactly what to do.

01:51:22.800 | So I break it down for them.

01:51:24.240 | I break it down to people like four weeks in advance,

01:51:28.280 | how you should prep your training and your nutrition

01:51:32.040 | and your sleep for competition.

01:51:34.200 | In addition to that, I break it down even to a smaller scale

01:51:38.080 | of how early you should get to the event,

01:51:41.480 | when you should be visualizing your competition,

01:51:46.440 | what to do 30 minutes before,

01:51:49.160 | 20 minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes,

01:51:50.920 | and the kind of mentality you should have

01:51:52.720 | throughout those times

01:51:54.480 | before you actually step onto the mat.

01:51:56.040 | - When are you visualizing?

01:51:57.520 | How much are you visualizing?

01:51:59.280 | When you say competition,

01:52:00.320 | you're talking about the tournament

01:52:01.800 | or the actual people you might be competing against?

01:52:04.200 | - A little bit of both.

01:52:05.040 | I'll spend time just visualizing the crowd.

01:52:08.160 | Like if it's going to be an arena with 15,000 people,

01:52:10.880 | I'll spend time in practice and whatnot,

01:52:12.560 | like putting myself inside that arena

01:52:14.840 | and visualizing stepping on the mat

01:52:16.800 | and hearing the crowd scream and whatnot.

01:52:19.040 | That way, when competition time comes,

01:52:21.600 | it's kind of the same deal.

01:52:22.960 | I'm accustomed to it.

01:52:24.080 | In addition, when I get to the arena,

01:52:25.760 | I'll step on the mat.

01:52:26.640 | I'll kind of look at everything.

01:52:28.200 | I'll expose my senses to what it's going to be.

01:52:31.600 | And then I'll kind of shut everything off.

01:52:33.240 | Like some people, you know,

01:52:34.280 | scroll through their phone and can treat it like normal,

01:52:37.040 | have this normal conversations.

01:52:38.560 | For me, I like to limit my sensory input,

01:52:40.920 | my sensory intake before I go out and compete.

01:52:43.680 | I just feel like sometimes,

01:52:45.240 | I feel like sometimes we only have so many decisions

01:52:47.720 | you can make in a day.

01:52:48.600 | And I want all of my best decisions to be made

01:52:51.120 | when it matters, when it counts.

01:52:52.760 | - What about you?

01:52:54.800 | What's, do you limit your sensory input?

01:52:59.200 | - On game day?

01:53:00.720 | Honestly, no routine, nothing, eh?

01:53:03.680 | I don't know, yeah, I don't do anything.

01:53:06.880 | I'm just like-- - This guy's a double silver.

01:53:08.920 | - We're both double silver.

01:53:10.120 | (laughing)

01:53:10.960 | - You should get it, you should buy his instructional.

01:53:12.880 | It might help you.

01:53:13.720 | - I'll get another silver.

01:53:14.800 | (laughing)

01:53:16.520 | No, honestly, nothing, hey, I just try to relax,

01:53:18.560 | treat it like it's before training.

01:53:20.240 | Have a--

01:53:21.080 | - Try visualizations or no?

01:53:22.600 | - No, no visualizations.

01:53:24.200 | - So the opposite of visualization, you just avoid it.

01:53:27.040 | - Yeah, I don't even think about it.

01:53:29.640 | I'm just like, yeah, we'll have a good time.

01:53:31.640 | Try to appreciate it, that I can do it.

01:53:34.200 | - By the way, when you visualize,

01:53:35.360 | are you visualizing tough positions

01:53:37.120 | or you visualize winning mostly?

01:53:39.200 | - Definitely visualize winning.

01:53:40.800 | I visualize how I can get,

01:53:42.200 | how I'm going to get to my most dominant positions.

01:53:45.040 | 'Cause in comp, I want to do what I'm best at.

01:53:47.400 | And I'm also see, I see my opponent in his best positions

01:53:50.800 | and how I'm going to escape those if necessary.

01:53:53.000 | But most of the time, I'm just visualizing

01:53:54.480 | exactly what I'm going to do in that match.

01:53:56.440 | And I go out there and do it.

01:53:58.080 | - Okay, so when your teammate, Craig,

01:54:01.760 | is another world-class athlete,

01:54:04.880 | has a fundamentally different philosophy than you,

01:54:07.600 | do you visualize being frustrated at him?

01:54:10.160 | - No, not frustrated, but I'll definitely come into practice

01:54:12.920 | with solutions to problems that Craig gives me.

01:54:16.520 | If Craig's catching me at something or giving me issues,

01:54:19.720 | I'll go home, I'll watch a match that he lost

01:54:22.320 | for motivation and I'll come back and I'll put it on.

01:54:25.280 | (laughing)

01:54:27.200 | - Just DM him like a highlight reel of him losing.

01:54:29.960 | - Yup.

01:54:30.800 | (laughing)

01:54:31.840 | - What about you?

01:54:32.680 | Does it affect you that you're a bit of an outlier?

01:54:36.240 | - Usually before I compete, right before I go out there,

01:54:38.000 | I go, why am I doing this?

01:54:40.720 | Do I still need to do this?

01:54:42.480 | And I think, hopefully it doesn't embarrass myself,

01:54:44.440 | affects my instructional sales.

01:54:46.280 | That's the last thought.

01:54:47.760 | But I don't even put too much thought

01:54:49.840 | into the whole competing thing.

01:54:51.720 | I'm just like, you know what, train hard,

01:54:54.000 | hopefully have a good time out there.

01:54:54.840 | - What about the motivation aspect?

01:54:56.040 | Like that voice that says, why am I doing this?

01:54:58.720 | That voice can break a lot of people.

01:55:00.520 | Like in the weight cut, it can break a lot of people.

01:55:03.320 | Like why am I doing this stupid, silly sport?

01:55:05.320 | Like you said, a bunch of dudes just rolling around,

01:55:07.800 | like what's the point?

01:55:08.840 | - I'll call someone with a nine to five job

01:55:10.480 | and I'll be like, yeah, that's why I'm doing this.

01:55:13.000 | Avoid that.

01:55:13.840 | (laughing)

01:55:15.080 | - Sell those DVDs, man.

01:55:16.640 | - Yeah, I didn't get too deep on competing.

01:55:18.320 | - Yeah.

01:55:19.160 | - We're so polar opposite.

01:55:21.720 | It's like almost uncomfortable to be around you.

01:55:23.760 | - Obviously, one of us is a clean athlete.

01:55:25.280 | (laughing)

01:55:27.520 | - You should do a DVD on that.

01:55:30.320 | What about you in terms of preparing for competition, Mickey?

01:55:37.040 | The day before, the day of,

01:55:39.960 | are there rituals that you follow?

01:55:42.080 | - Honestly, like the few days leading up to it,

01:55:45.600 | it's different for me every time.

01:55:47.640 | Like sometimes I'll warm up before I compete,

01:55:50.320 | sometimes I won't, sometimes I'll fast, sometimes I'll eat.

01:55:53.360 | So it literally is just completely random.

01:55:55.200 | I don't follow any specific thing.

01:55:58.040 | But in the training room leading up to the competition,

01:56:00.240 | I'll definitely, like Nicky Rod visualized,

01:56:02.720 | that I'm walking out onto the competition mats.

01:56:05.560 | I'll pick somebody that's a similar body type

01:56:07.920 | to the person that I'm competing against.

01:56:09.880 | And then we'll start out with some distance between us.

01:56:13.720 | We'll come out, smack hands,

01:56:15.000 | and act like everything's a real competition.

01:56:17.440 | I'll even sometimes have corners that will yell out times

01:56:20.680 | and things like that,

01:56:21.520 | just to replicate it as much as possible.

01:56:24.000 | - That's funny, because I've talked to a lot

01:56:26.000 | of Olympic gold medalists.

01:56:27.520 | They used to do a podcast with like athletes,

01:56:29.400 | and they all sound like Nicky Rod.

01:56:31.720 | (laughing)

01:56:32.560 | The two of you are outliers.

01:56:35.000 | I don't know, sometimes I'll do this, sometimes.

01:56:37.400 | So anyway, but that's also Jiu-Jitsu culture, I think.

01:56:40.560 | Maybe the chaos of not taking things too serious

01:56:42.640 | is actually really, really helpful.

01:56:44.280 | Sometimes the pressure of taking everything

01:56:46.040 | way too seriously can break you.

01:56:47.920 | - I mean, I just don't think it's that big a sport, really.

01:56:50.440 | You know, like-

01:56:51.280 | - I think if I compete every day in practice,

01:56:52.600 | it just makes competition much easier.

01:56:54.400 | So I just put the pressure on there.

01:56:56.000 | - On the competition, yeah, yeah.

01:56:57.160 | On the, sorry, on the training,

01:56:58.520 | on the competing and the training.

01:57:01.200 | I don't know, Olympic sports

01:57:02.680 | aren't that big either, financially.

01:57:04.920 | And people take it extremely, extremely seriously.

01:57:07.200 | Like you don't really get that much money from Judo.

01:57:10.080 | - I mean, I just don't take Jiu-Jitsu that seriously,

01:57:11.840 | 'cause like I was just partying

01:57:13.840 | and having a good time until 21.

01:57:15.160 | And then I was like, "Oh, fuck, do I get a job?

01:57:17.160 | Or do I pursue professional sports?"

01:57:18.600 | And I feel like if I can, made a career in Jiu-Jitsu

01:57:20.920 | with a decision at that point.

01:57:22.420 | - And now you just stumbled your way somehow

01:57:25.280 | into like being at the top of the world.

01:57:27.080 | - Yeah, that's what I feel like.

01:57:28.000 | I just walked into it.

01:57:28.880 | I feel like I couldn't just do that in wrestling, boxing.

01:57:31.840 | I couldn't do that in other sports.

01:57:33.600 | - What was the toughest match you've ever had

01:57:36.400 | that pushed you mentally, physically, technically?

01:57:38.920 | This doesn't have to be the best person you face,

01:57:41.760 | but was there like a moment in your career

01:57:43.440 | that was like really defining for you?

01:57:48.440 | - I mean, I would say like the toughest mentally

01:57:51.040 | was just this last ADCC.

01:57:53.640 | I just had a big injury leading into it

01:57:55.760 | that kind of screwed the whole camp

01:57:57.780 | and weight cutting everything up.

01:58:00.200 | So yeah, I would say the last ADCC.

01:58:03.200 | - Are you proud of your performance there?

01:58:04.680 | Like you stepped on the mat that you pushed through all of it?

01:58:08.160 | - Like I said, I'm a very competitive person

01:58:10.000 | and I hate losing.

01:58:11.240 | So definitely not, yeah.

01:58:13.360 | - You had a collapse lung.

01:58:14.760 | (laughing)

01:58:17.000 | - Can we elaborate on this?

01:58:18.960 | - He was so physically exhausted afterwards,

01:58:24.920 | couldn't breathe, we had to get medical intervention.

01:58:27.120 | He thought he had a collapse lung.

01:58:29.160 | - So he goes-

01:58:30.000 | - I was the most tired that I've ever been in my life

01:58:32.640 | in that match.

01:58:33.480 | I actually popped a blood vessel in my eye.

01:58:35.480 | I was trying so hard.

01:58:37.200 | - He comes out, he walks off the ADCC mat backstage

01:58:40.520 | and I'm like, I'm kind of getting warmed up for my match.

01:58:42.720 | And Nikki run and comes, he walks over, huffing and puffing.

01:58:45.840 | His mom's right next to me, he looks at her,

01:58:47.600 | he was like, I think I need help.

01:58:49.440 | I think I got a lung collapse.

01:58:50.920 | (laughing)

01:58:51.760 | - That's not true.

01:58:52.600 | - No, that's not true?

01:58:53.680 | - My mom's the one that called for medical help.

01:58:55.920 | I was just laying on the warmup mat, fucking dying.

01:58:59.000 | (laughing)

01:59:01.920 | - Well, we're happy you're fine.

01:59:03.000 | (laughing)

01:59:05.240 | - You laid it all on the line.

01:59:07.640 | What about you, Craig?

01:59:09.400 | - Defining all toughest matches?

01:59:11.560 | I mean, they're all pretty tough.

01:59:14.000 | I don't know, I can't really pinpoint one.

01:59:16.680 | I mean, probably the most annoying one

01:59:18.080 | was obviously the one where I had Gordon Arnby,

01:59:19.760 | I was like, tap bro.

01:59:21.000 | And he wouldn't tap, so I let him out.

01:59:23.000 | (laughing)

01:59:25.240 | Mentally, I was like, I shouldn't have done that.

01:59:28.760 | - Do you ever have a thing in your brain

01:59:30.200 | where it says, should I shit talk now or not?

01:59:32.040 | And you say, no, I'm gonna be respectful?

01:59:34.960 | - I just can't be serious about some of these things.

01:59:38.560 | I don't know, it's just silly.

01:59:40.560 | - All of it, the whole thing.

01:59:41.840 | What about you, Nicky Man?

01:59:43.120 | - Dude, honestly, most of my toughest matches

01:59:47.840 | are in the training room, right?

01:59:50.520 | 'Cause I started with these guys,

01:59:51.840 | I started training under them,

01:59:53.320 | started training at DDS when I didn't have any knowledge.

01:59:58.480 | I knew wrestling, I knew a knee cut in jujitsu,

02:00:01.440 | but I started training with them

02:00:02.800 | when I knew almost no jujitsu

02:00:04.920 | and then I had to really work my way up.

02:00:07.120 | So definitely in the training room,

02:00:08.680 | being like having one of these guys on my back

02:00:11.040 | or there's a stretch of a few weeks or months

02:00:13.880 | when COVID first hit and it was just like

02:00:16.280 | four of the best grapplers in the world

02:00:18.040 | and we just did drilling and live rounds

02:00:20.520 | with these four guys and it was hard, it was very hard.

02:00:24.960 | Every round, doing six rounds, seven days a week

02:00:27.840 | with the best grapplers in the world

02:00:29.240 | and it's like you get no break

02:00:30.600 | and you're forced to learn on the go.

02:00:32.520 | So I think for me in the training room,

02:00:34.640 | that was definitely my toughest matches

02:00:36.680 | and that's where I built those mental calluses.

02:00:39.200 | - There was a period where I drilled with Nicky Rod,

02:00:42.920 | probably what, nine months, 12 months?

02:00:44.920 | And typically speaking, like I said, no warmups,

02:00:47.080 | the first round we usually take it pretty easy.

02:00:49.040 | First round you start in mount.

02:00:50.760 | The whole room, the rest of the training room,

02:00:53.560 | they take mount very lightly.

02:00:55.640 | Me and Nicky Rod would be fighting to the death every day.

02:00:59.080 | I felt like we did an extra round every day.

02:01:01.560 | It was very grueling.

02:01:02.400 | - I'm very mean when I'm in the midst of drilling

02:01:05.680 | or live, we would drill wrestling quite a bit,

02:01:10.680 | like stand up and in the drilling,

02:01:13.560 | I just wouldn't let Craig take me down.

02:01:15.720 | We're not going live, we're just drilling,

02:01:17.200 | but I just wouldn't let him put me on the floor.

02:01:18.880 | So things like that.

02:01:20.320 | (laughing)

02:01:23.200 | - I knew it would escalate.

02:01:25.000 | - Yeah.

02:01:25.880 | - So you mentioned mount, so you do positional training.

02:01:28.760 | So would that be the hardest versus live training,

02:01:31.720 | open, starting from guard?

02:01:33.600 | - I would say mount and turtle definitely,

02:01:36.080 | definitely made me very tough.

02:01:37.880 | 'Cause you spend all this effort getting off of bottom out

02:01:41.200 | and then you got to get on top of a guy.

02:01:42.800 | And at the time I'm not that good at holding guys down.

02:01:45.040 | So they escape quick and I'm like, fuck,

02:01:46.680 | I just tried to hold them down.

02:01:47.920 | Got to go back down.

02:01:49.040 | Same thing with a turtle.

02:01:49.920 | It's like you start bottom turtle,

02:01:51.600 | you're trying to explode, get out, get away.

02:01:53.400 | And then, you know, you switch

02:01:55.240 | and this guy gets up pretty quick and you're like,

02:01:57.280 | damn, I got to go right back down.

02:01:58.760 | It was that constant circle, man.

02:02:00.680 | It's very tough, but definitely, you know,

02:02:03.120 | build some character on the mat.

02:02:04.520 | - What do you think is the value

02:02:05.360 | of positional training in general in Jiu-Jitsu?

02:02:08.080 | Actually, this one, just interacting with you guys,

02:02:10.080 | it's not commonly done in just like regular Jiu-Jitsu gyms.

02:02:13.780 | What do you see?

02:02:14.620 | 'Cause probably it's not commonly done

02:02:15.880 | 'cause most of the experience is just frustrating.

02:02:18.780 | Like if you're evenly matched,

02:02:21.740 | you're basically frustrated the whole time,

02:02:24.480 | if you're doing it right.

02:02:25.680 | - It's a psychological battle that happens

02:02:27.600 | in like the mount and turtle rounds.

02:02:28.840 | It's like, you know, 'cause you,

02:02:30.200 | maybe you get close to subbing a guy

02:02:32.120 | or maybe you do sub him.

02:02:33.360 | You know, when you start on turtle

02:02:35.440 | and you're on their back, you finish them

02:02:36.640 | and then you get this high point

02:02:38.280 | and then immediately you got to go back down

02:02:39.920 | to defensive posture.

02:02:41.560 | It's very like, it's emotionally like up and down.

02:02:44.200 | So it's hard to deal with.

02:02:45.360 | - Super important if you're one of the better people

02:02:47.000 | in the gym, because it just puts you in positions

02:02:49.560 | you don't find yourself in, in regular training.

02:02:52.200 | So I think like a lot of,

02:02:54.140 | if you're a big fish in a small pond

02:02:55.520 | and you don't do positional sparring,

02:02:56.880 | you're probably going to get exposed in competition.

02:02:59.240 | You might even look silly in those positions.

02:03:01.160 | So you really have to force yourself to do it,

02:03:03.360 | despite the fact that you're giving someone

02:03:04.840 | worse than you a position where they might catch you.

02:03:07.200 | So you have to sort of put the ego aside.

02:03:09.340 | - Yeah, that's one of the things

02:03:12.440 | when I was training regularly,

02:03:13.760 | of course, training with you guys, it's like trivial,

02:03:15.600 | but I didn't work on putting myself in bad positions

02:03:20.280 | when you get better and you regret it.

02:03:22.440 | 'Cause the big negative thing it has,

02:03:24.760 | consequence it has on competition

02:03:26.260 | is you don't take as many risks

02:03:27.840 | 'cause you're kind of afraid for your back

02:03:30.360 | to get taken, all that kind of stuff.

02:03:32.240 | - That was me before I went to DDS.

02:03:33.800 | I remember I showed up there in that old position.

02:03:35.240 | I was like, fuck this.

02:03:36.960 | You better earn this position.

02:03:39.240 | - Yeah, exactly.

02:03:40.080 | - I didn't really have escapes.

02:03:41.880 | That was a learning curve for me, for sure.

02:03:47.000 | - Do you see the value in positional training

02:03:48.880 | or is it just the source of tremendous frustration?

02:03:52.400 | - Yeah, I definitely think it plays a big part

02:03:55.100 | in your confidence when you step out

02:03:56.680 | onto the competition mats,

02:03:58.960 | being confident that even if you get put

02:04:00.740 | in the worst possible situations,

02:04:02.920 | you know what to do and know how to work out of them.

02:04:06.120 | - So I had a long argument with Hydra Gracie

02:04:08.960 | when he visited and he thinks mount

02:04:10.620 | is the most dominant position, even Nogi versus Beck.

02:04:15.620 | Is there a case to be made for that or no?

02:04:18.880 | - I think all of your opponent's utensils,

02:04:20.920 | their tools are in front of them.

02:04:22.840 | So if you're on mount, there's a few ways

02:04:26.020 | to get out of mount.

02:04:26.860 | I think if you're on somebody's back,

02:04:28.260 | I'd personally much rather be on somebody's back than--

02:04:30.740 | - Flattened out.

02:04:31.780 | I'd rather have someone's back and then flattened out.

02:04:34.540 | - Boots in, flattened out, yeah.

02:04:36.540 | - Boots in, flattened out.

02:04:37.380 | So not even body triangle, but just flattened.

02:04:40.340 | - Just completely flat, almost like the position in MMA

02:04:42.620 | where you see guys get finished 'cause they can't get out.

02:04:44.700 | I think that position is probably

02:04:46.380 | the hardest position to escape.

02:04:47.580 | - Can you see what Hydra's talking about with mount

02:04:49.380 | or is he just that good at mount, like he says that?

02:04:52.060 | - Might mean the gi, cross collar, I don't know.

02:04:55.340 | Or did he mean--

02:04:56.180 | - He says controlling wise, he just believes

02:04:58.320 | that you can complete, that there's,

02:05:01.520 | he actually thinks there's more ways to get out

02:05:03.960 | from the back than there is from the mount.

02:05:05.920 | - Prior to--

02:05:06.920 | - Getting up, including physically.

02:05:09.120 | - Prior to the kipping escape, I would probably agree

02:05:11.760 | with him, but that kipping escape's so difficult to manage.

02:05:15.040 | It's the funny looking escape where your legs are wiggling.

02:05:18.520 | People have a lot of trouble.

02:05:20.020 | It's super hard to learn how to do,

02:05:21.840 | but then once you learn how to do it,

02:05:23.040 | the effectiveness is just huge.

02:05:25.600 | - Yeah, it's a weird one.

02:05:26.520 | When did that come to be a thing?

02:05:28.360 | Is that pretty recent?

02:05:30.480 | - I mean, I saw DDS guys using it first, I think.

02:05:33.520 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:05:34.600 | - Who's the first guy to discover something like that?

02:05:36.800 | This seems like a ridiculous thing to discover.

02:05:39.680 | - Yeah, like what if I just wiggle?

02:05:41.240 | (all laughing)

02:05:42.960 | - I thought it was a joke at first.

02:05:43.800 | I was like, "You guys really doing this?"

02:05:45.320 | Yeah, all right.

02:05:46.720 | (all laughing)

02:05:48.440 | - I remember somebody showing me a technique

02:05:50.520 | where if you just walk your hand on a mat

02:05:54.600 | or something like that.

02:05:55.800 | - Like an arm triangle or something?

02:05:56.840 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:05:57.680 | - You're trying to walk the arm.

02:05:58.500 | - On the arm high?

02:05:59.340 | - And it's just a funny discovery

02:06:00.600 | as opposed to trying to shove it in, just walk it.

02:06:04.320 | - I like doing that to people,

02:06:05.280 | but with things that aren't true.

02:06:06.840 | (Jay laughs)

02:06:07.680 | You know what I mean?

02:06:08.500 | I'll just tell them this is a technique

02:06:09.560 | and watch them try to work out if I'm being serious or not.

02:06:13.240 | - Yeah, that's what you do when you achieve guru status.

02:06:15.600 | They'll just listen to you like you're Steven Seagal.

02:06:17.600 | - See what they'll believe.

02:06:19.040 | (Jay laughs)

02:06:20.840 | - Speaking of which, how do you balance,

02:06:22.480 | you have to travel all across the world,

02:06:24.000 | how do you balance that with running a school

02:06:26.240 | or being a world-class Jiu-Jitsu athlete?

02:06:28.280 | - I mean, the secrets of travel for me are two drugs,

02:06:32.120 | Xanax and modafinil.

02:06:33.560 | That's how we time adjust and we hit the ground running.

02:06:37.800 | - What does modafinil do?

02:06:39.520 | Xanax puts you to sleep.

02:06:40.960 | - Yeah, I mean, I have narcolepsy,

02:06:42.480 | so it's a narcolepsy medication.

02:06:43.800 | (all laughing)

02:06:48.320 | - How does that work with the steroids?

02:06:50.880 | - I mean, they work well together, you know?

02:06:52.600 | - Yeah, nice.

02:06:53.600 | - Focus and physical recovery.

02:06:55.960 | But in terms of traveling and training stuff,

02:06:57.840 | I mean, we're lucky 'cause we got so many high-level guys,

02:07:00.040 | so we can travel and they're still in good hands.

02:07:03.680 | I mean, it would be a problem if me,

02:07:05.120 | Nicky Rod and Nicky Ryan left and the gym had Ethan,

02:07:07.240 | that would be a problem.

02:07:08.520 | But we gotta make sure it's not just him there.

02:07:11.040 | - Although everyone says they're happy when you're gone,

02:07:14.720 | so that's the moment I heard.

02:07:16.120 | - Happy when I'm gone, but they do miss me.

02:07:18.160 | - Yeah.

02:07:19.000 | - For sure, until I get back.

02:07:20.040 | (all laughing)

02:07:21.320 | - All right, what about you?

02:07:23.240 | Just like balancing it,

02:07:24.280 | do you try to stay completely focused on competing?

02:07:26.520 | Like for some of the big matches you have coming up,

02:07:28.440 | are you able to kind of diversify?

02:07:30.200 | - Well, I like to, yeah, diversify my training

02:07:33.120 | to where if I don't have a competition scheduled,

02:07:36.440 | I'm more focused on skill development and getting better

02:07:39.760 | and broadening my tool shed.

02:07:41.960 | But if I'm like six weeks before comp,

02:07:45.680 | I really start amping up the intensity

02:07:48.400 | that I bring into the mats against bringing some

02:07:50.760 | of that visualization towards practice.

02:07:53.800 | And maybe I train less volume pre-competition,

02:07:57.160 | but higher output per session.

02:07:59.760 | - Yeah, what's a perfect week of training look like?

02:08:02.680 | - If I'm not in competition mode,

02:08:05.040 | I would say Monday, Wednesday, Friday twice,

02:08:08.280 | every other day just once.

02:08:10.360 | If I'm pre-comp, just Monday to Sunday once a day.

02:08:15.080 | - So that's on the mat, you're doing the full

02:08:16.840 | like positional training, live training.

02:08:18.960 | - Bicep curls.

02:08:20.320 | - Oh yeah, I do a lot of bicep curls.

02:08:22.040 | Yeah, I lift a few times a week now.

02:08:23.880 | - Yeah, cardio or no?

02:08:25.560 | Cardio is all mat stuff.

02:08:26.840 | - Cardio is all mat stuff.

02:08:27.840 | I do do some CrossFit workouts, like CrossFit's,

02:08:31.200 | I'll do like some EMOMs or some AMRAPs,

02:08:33.400 | or CrossFit terms.

02:08:35.240 | - That's for Instagram?

02:08:36.200 | - Yeah.

02:08:37.040 | But yeah, CrossFit is a good way to kind of like push

02:08:43.680 | that threshold sometimes on the mat,

02:08:45.840 | 'cause I'm so good, I can't always get that full red line.

02:08:49.760 | So I'll hop in across the gym and I'll do some workouts

02:08:52.760 | that bring me closer to death.

02:08:55.000 | - What about you, Craig?

02:08:58.600 | What is a perfect week in training look like?

02:09:01.920 | Like when you're back home training?

02:09:03.480 | - I try to be in the gym twice a day, every day,

02:09:06.120 | when I'm back, just 'cause I travel a bit more

02:09:08.320 | than these guys.

02:09:09.240 | So I try to be there eight and 12 every day,

02:09:11.160 | hang out in between.

02:09:12.920 | I usually train both of those sessions,

02:09:16.320 | depending on how my body feels.

02:09:17.560 | - So doing positional, doing every technique,

02:09:19.920 | positional, live?

02:09:21.440 | - I should probably do more positional,

02:09:22.800 | but 'cause I'm just trying to work on wrestling and stuff,

02:09:24.680 | and especially leading up to the Volkanovskis last fall,

02:09:27.480 | I was trying to wrestle more and focus on those areas,

02:09:29.840 | even before I traveled over there,

02:09:31.640 | just some experimentation with some stuff.

02:09:33.920 | But yeah.

02:09:35.160 | - How do you experiment with stuff?

02:09:37.160 | So there's like regular positional stuff,

02:09:38.520 | but when you have ideas,

02:09:40.920 | like where do you do it in during the training sessions,

02:09:44.480 | or do you do it outside of that?

02:09:45.920 | Do you get together with somebody?

02:09:48.000 | - Usually every session I show up

02:09:49.840 | with something I'm thinking of.

02:09:51.520 | Usually something from top, maybe something from bottom,

02:09:54.520 | but, and then I just try to maybe pick the right people.

02:09:57.680 | Some people, obviously, I'm just fighting to the death with,

02:10:00.640 | it's not a good time to experiment.

02:10:02.560 | And then others, obviously you can play around

02:10:04.680 | with ideas on.

02:10:05.560 | - Okay, what about you?

02:10:08.760 | What's a perfect week look like?

02:10:10.720 | Maybe, well, you said you're 100% now.

02:10:13.600 | - Yeah.

02:10:14.840 | So yeah, honestly,

02:10:15.680 | I have pretty much the same schedule as Nicky Rod.

02:10:17.440 | So Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I do twice a day,

02:10:19.760 | every other day, once a day.

02:10:21.360 | And then normally noon practice is like our biggest class.

02:10:24.680 | That's where all the pros go in.

02:10:26.600 | So I tend to do more open rounds there.

02:10:28.880 | And then we have a 7 p.m. class as well,

02:10:30.800 | which is more hobbyist.

02:10:32.280 | And that's where I'll do my positional rounds

02:10:34.360 | and force myself to be put in bad positions.

02:10:38.320 | - So you have, what, you do 8 a.m., 12,

02:10:41.480 | like in terms of what B team has,

02:10:43.720 | 8 a.m., 12, and 7 p.m.

02:10:46.120 | And the hobbyists are more 7 p.m.

02:10:47.760 | - Yes.

02:10:48.800 | - Okay.

02:10:49.960 | Do you believe in overtraining?

02:10:51.520 | Do you think you can overtrain?

02:10:53.800 | - I used to not believe in it.

02:10:55.480 | (all laughing)

02:10:56.360 | But then I got hurt.

02:10:57.520 | - Oh, you attribute that to overtraining?

02:11:01.280 | The bicep?

02:11:02.120 | - I think, dude, I'm telling you,

02:11:03.480 | I trained, I lifted like a bodybuilder for like seven years.

02:11:06.800 | And by lifting, I mean, I was lifting seven days a week.

02:11:10.040 | And I trained arms most days.

02:11:12.960 | Like almost every day I would do like four or five sets

02:11:16.680 | and get a pretty good bicep pump in addition to my lift.

02:11:21.000 | I think that had to contribute somewhat towards my--

02:11:24.200 | - What about, okay, yeah, fair enough.

02:11:26.640 | Well, what about on the actual mat overtraining,

02:11:28.920 | like spending too much time on the mat?

02:11:30.440 | - Well--

02:11:31.280 | - Psychological, physical overtraining?

02:11:32.840 | - I think you can definitely overtrain,

02:11:35.240 | but it's more of a, like, as your body's healthy,

02:11:37.200 | you have to make sure your mind is sharp.

02:11:39.040 | Like sometimes maybe taking a day away

02:11:42.360 | or even diverting your attention

02:11:44.560 | in a different aspect of training

02:11:46.400 | can help you be a little bit sharper overall.

02:11:48.800 | Sometimes it can be like,

02:11:50.120 | it can get a little like stagnant

02:11:53.440 | 'cause you're doing the same stuff over and over.

02:11:55.280 | But I think if you just keep like overtraining,

02:11:58.040 | then your overall baseline just gets higher

02:12:00.040 | and you become accustomed to that.

02:12:04.760 | - What about you?

02:12:05.600 | You don't seem like a guy that over, okay.

02:12:08.040 | - I've heard of it.

02:12:08.880 | I've never been close to it.

02:12:10.480 | No, I think controlling how hard you train

02:12:15.560 | is definitely, it protects you from injury.

02:12:17.320 | You know what I mean?

02:12:18.160 | Like if you're redlining yourself

02:12:20.240 | and then you're fighting to the death in the gym,

02:12:21.680 | that's 100% when you're gonna get injured, gonna get sick.

02:12:24.040 | So I try to make sure I've had enough sleep,

02:12:27.160 | I've had obviously enough food post-training,

02:12:30.200 | and that sort of helps me to train a bit harder, but.

02:12:35.200 | Still try to avoid redlining myself too much.

02:12:37.520 | - I think established also like what days

02:12:39.520 | are gonna be your peak days?

02:12:40.800 | 'Cause you're, throughout the week,

02:12:41.960 | if you're training seven days a week,

02:12:43.040 | you're gonna have ups and downs.

02:12:44.440 | Like for me personally, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,

02:12:47.400 | usually my best days.

02:12:49.120 | And besides that, I also have other great days.

02:12:51.600 | - All my days are great.

02:12:54.480 | But Monday, Wednesday, Friday are also great.

02:12:58.480 | You're like unable to admit

02:13:02.000 | that some days are rougher than others.

02:13:03.880 | - I love that.

02:13:04.720 | I'm always on, bro.

02:13:07.200 | Okay.

02:13:08.840 | What advice would you give to people

02:13:10.400 | who are not always on, hobbyists?

02:13:12.720 | How to get better?

02:13:14.800 | Like people that are already there, I don't know,

02:13:16.200 | Purple Bells, Brown Bells, Black Bells,

02:13:18.040 | they're just like doing like a couple of times a week

02:13:20.560 | or something like that.

02:13:21.400 | Like how to get better?

02:13:22.480 | - I think being consistent,

02:13:25.320 | like find a schedule that you can consistently train.

02:13:27.680 | Maybe it's like three, four times a week

02:13:29.760 | or even a little bit less.

02:13:31.400 | Just be consistent over the years.

02:13:33.640 | I think too often people are like,

02:13:35.160 | "Oh, I wanna get really good really fast."

02:13:36.680 | And it's like, definitely takes a long time

02:13:38.520 | to get to where you wanna be.

02:13:39.600 | - What about what you're doing during like,

02:13:42.640 | while being consistent,

02:13:43.680 | what kind of stuff you're working on?

02:13:45.840 | - So honestly, I think one big thing for me,

02:13:48.440 | which is something I actually started doing

02:13:50.160 | once B-Team was formed, was filming all of your rounds

02:13:54.800 | and then watching it every day.

02:13:57.040 | 'Cause then you can see what specific problems you're having

02:13:59.560 | and then you can base your positional rounds

02:14:01.360 | around those problems.

02:14:03.680 | - That's really interesting.

02:14:04.640 | It's kind of depressing though.

02:14:06.240 | - Yeah.

02:14:07.600 | - Like sometimes I have to,

02:14:09.400 | I edited this podcast for a long time.

02:14:11.680 | I still do in part and I hate the sound of my voice

02:14:14.400 | and like what I look like and stuff.

02:14:16.360 | But it does make you better.

02:14:18.040 | - Yeah.

02:14:18.880 | - And I also hate the sound of Craig's voice.

02:14:20.800 | (laughing)

02:14:21.640 | So editing this podcast will be especially difficult.

02:14:24.960 | This will be doubly difficult.

02:14:27.280 | But I'm glad the rest of you are here.

02:14:29.000 | I don't know.

02:14:29.840 | That's a really...

02:14:30.680 | (laughing)

02:14:32.600 | - Do you watch competition footage of yourself?

02:14:34.960 | Like to analyze?

02:14:37.440 | - Oh, it boosts my confidence.

02:14:39.280 | (laughing)

02:14:40.120 | That's fucking good.

02:14:41.440 | - While you're doing curls?

02:14:42.520 | - Yeah.

02:14:43.360 | - I try not to watch it to boost my confidence.

02:14:44.960 | (laughing)

02:14:46.080 | - Is there advice you, Craig,

02:14:47.160 | you would give for hobbyists to get better?

02:14:49.640 | - I mean, just not every round

02:14:52.520 | has to be a fight to the death, you know?

02:14:54.520 | I feel like you're gonna get injured,

02:14:56.120 | burn the tail that way.

02:14:57.520 | You're not gonna learn as much.

02:14:59.040 | - It's tough.

02:14:59.880 | I would say just as a black belt

02:15:01.960 | who took Jiu-Jitsu very seriously for a very long time,

02:15:05.120 | basically when you become a hobbyist,

02:15:07.560 | your skill is basically slipping,

02:15:10.920 | your age and your skill.

02:15:13.240 | And so not taking stuff seriously

02:15:15.280 | is actually its own psychological skill of like...

02:15:18.800 | (laughing)

02:15:21.240 | That it's tough.

02:15:23.120 | It's tough.

02:15:23.960 | Like it's tough in a way that is different

02:15:27.280 | when you're like a blue belt or something

02:15:29.360 | that if you work hard and you train correctly,

02:15:33.000 | you're gonna get much better.

02:15:34.800 | Here, you're kinda...

02:15:36.040 | - You're looking downhill.

02:15:36.960 | - You're looking downhill.

02:15:38.400 | You're like, "Yeah, I guess I'm gonna enjoy the art of it."

02:15:42.600 | - Reframe the victory.

02:15:43.640 | You know, like if it's a young upcoming guy

02:15:45.320 | and he comes to me, you're like,

02:15:46.240 | "Well, that's a moral victory," you know?

02:15:48.880 | - Yeah, but then that has to happen.

02:15:50.640 | You have to be able to not do that

02:15:52.200 | to avoid the injury sometimes, like if you want.

02:15:55.000 | So yeah, it's a different thing.

02:15:57.560 | Plus with me, just because some people recognize me,

02:16:01.480 | they...

02:16:02.320 | - They're coming.

02:16:03.520 | - You have that probably.

02:16:05.080 | You guys definitely obviously have that.

02:16:06.880 | - I've solved that problem.

02:16:08.920 | - How did you solve that problem?

02:16:10.080 | - Travel around, you do a seminar, anything like that.

02:16:13.000 | It's believable that you could get submitted once.

02:16:16.400 | But if they catch you, give them a few.

02:16:19.080 | If people tell their friends

02:16:19.920 | they submitted me to a seminar one time, believable.

02:16:23.120 | They got me four or five times.

02:16:24.920 | You've robbed them of that.

02:16:26.200 | - Okay, that's pretty funny.

02:16:27.640 | But it's also, they have this energy,

02:16:30.920 | like they think, they're coming in hot.

02:16:34.120 | And I usually like to just basically

02:16:37.320 | get submitted quickly twice.

02:16:39.280 | And just, it changes everything.

02:16:42.240 | It makes it more fun.

02:16:43.280 | I've noticed it.

02:16:45.280 | - Let them submit you twice?

02:16:46.120 | - Yeah, just like very quickly.

02:16:47.560 | What are the options?

02:16:49.840 | (laughing)

02:16:50.680 | - We're not saying you're not.

02:16:52.360 | - Make it last longer.

02:16:53.840 | Hold off.

02:16:54.680 | (laughing)

02:16:55.800 | - But then it's like, it's very hard to,

02:16:58.000 | yeah, if you're a very serious competitor

02:16:59.680 | and so on, you take it seriously, then yes.

02:17:01.880 | - Then people go, people, what they try to do,

02:17:05.600 | this probably is what happens to you guys,

02:17:07.000 | they try to impress you by going super hard.

02:17:10.040 | - I have people every day come to my gym

02:17:11.840 | try to take me out.

02:17:13.440 | I just say, "Sharp, come to practice, let's get it on."

02:17:18.680 | - Do you feel that energy?

02:17:21.840 | I feel like I need to talk to Craig here first.

02:17:23.880 | (laughing)

02:17:25.520 | - Like at a seminar, somebody is coming in really hard,

02:17:28.400 | like a brown belt will come in

02:17:29.960 | and they really wanna impress you

02:17:31.120 | with their technical side, they're a big fan,

02:17:33.440 | they've been watching your DVDs,

02:17:35.200 | what do you do with a guy like that?

02:17:36.040 | - I make a complete joke out of the role.

02:17:38.440 | Give them the pass, mess with them, do stupid shit.

02:17:41.680 | Rub them of the realness of it.

02:17:44.000 | 'Cause it's stupid, I'm not gonna roll hard with strangers.

02:17:47.360 | I feel like you should roll with a circle of people

02:17:49.680 | you trust.

02:17:51.120 | Injuries happen rolling hard with strangers

02:17:53.920 | 'cause that's the same way you get injured in competition

02:17:55.680 | 'cause you don't have that relationship with them.

02:17:58.720 | - And I should also mention,

02:18:00.040 | that's probably not a good way to impress somebody

02:18:01.760 | is by just going ape shit, going 100%.

02:18:05.160 | - Oh yeah, not at all.

02:18:06.880 | - I think the beauty of Jiu-Jitsu

02:18:08.200 | is the camaraderie of it.

02:18:10.400 | As you get to know each other,

02:18:11.400 | it's technical, different ideas you have and all that.

02:18:14.320 | Yeah, okay.

02:18:17.160 | Do you think Gi Jiu-Jitsu is dying in popularity, Craig?

02:18:20.400 | - Yeah, it's long dead.

02:18:23.960 | I think it's just shows like,

02:18:25.920 | I have heard some numbers on the viewership

02:18:29.680 | for the Gi Worlds finals

02:18:31.200 | and they don't even compare to the undercard

02:18:32.680 | of like who's number one events.

02:18:34.040 | So I think like when I was coming up

02:18:35.760 | and competing in the Gi all the time,

02:18:37.320 | you looked at those guys

02:18:38.160 | that won black belt with championships

02:18:39.480 | and you were like in awe of them.

02:18:40.800 | It almost had that ADCC champion feel.

02:18:43.200 | But now that's not the case.

02:18:45.320 | You know, I just feel like that,

02:18:47.240 | the younger generation aren't looking at

02:18:48.600 | who's winning black belt, Gi Worlds.

02:18:50.080 | I personally don't think,

02:18:51.600 | and I don't think they're like,

02:18:53.040 | they wanna be that guy.

02:18:54.600 | They wanna be like a Rotolo, Gordon,

02:18:56.960 | you know, those are the people they wanna emulate.

02:18:59.800 | - So you think like the Gi,

02:19:01.080 | like AbiyJJF Gi tournaments

02:19:03.320 | will just keep declining popularity?

02:19:06.440 | - I think people will still do it.

02:19:07.760 | I mean, it's easier I think as you're over 30

02:19:10.080 | 'cause the Gi is a bit of a slower thing

02:19:11.680 | and the masters participation is bigger in the Gi

02:19:15.320 | 'cause obviously in No Gi

02:19:16.560 | is now heading in a wrestling direction.

02:19:18.400 | Wrestling and heel hooks, you're over 30,

02:19:20.240 | that's a terrifying prospect.

02:19:21.480 | So you know, what's terrifying about the Gi?

02:19:24.240 | Less.

02:19:25.080 | So I think in a participation rate,

02:19:25.960 | the AbiyJJF will still be good,

02:19:27.840 | but I just don't think people are as interested

02:19:30.400 | as they used to be.

02:19:31.320 | - Well, why is wrestling and heel hooks terrifying?

02:19:33.760 | Like heel hooks I can vaguely understand

02:19:35.400 | if you don't understand heel hooks.

02:19:36.760 | - You work a desk job and you've never wrestled

02:19:38.400 | and a guy double legs you,

02:19:39.240 | that's gonna probably break your back.

02:19:41.160 | You know, I think the older guys are scared of wrestling.

02:19:44.400 | It's hard to wrestle at 40.

02:19:46.360 | - To learn wrestling at 40.

02:19:47.520 | - Is it?

02:19:48.360 | Yeah, I mean, I think it's even just hard in general

02:19:50.040 | to do wrestling at 40,

02:19:51.480 | but it's easy to pull half guard in the Gi at 40.

02:19:54.480 | - I think it's hard to do judo at 40

02:19:56.240 | and people still do it at 40.

02:19:58.040 | Judo hurts more.

02:19:59.200 | - Judo's scarier than all of them.

02:20:01.240 | - Yeah.

02:20:02.080 | I think, does wrestling really hurt at 40?

02:20:04.240 | - I don't know.

02:20:06.280 | - I don't know, I'm looking at you.

02:20:07.120 | - Yeah.

02:20:08.120 | - It does, interesting.

02:20:09.600 | - I feel, I agree with you saying

02:20:10.880 | that judo looks like the most dangerous.

02:20:13.360 | Like even their practice partners,

02:20:15.160 | they're just getting slammed flat.

02:20:17.280 | They're bueno.

02:20:18.640 | - Yeah, I did judo for a really long time.

02:20:20.920 | There's a lot of people that are 40, 50, 60 do judo.

02:20:23.920 | And they get-

02:20:24.760 | - They're the ones that are still alive though.

02:20:26.520 | (laughing)

02:20:28.240 | - It's true.

02:20:29.720 | Survivor bias.

02:20:30.600 | You do a little bit of judo, right?

02:20:33.560 | - Yeah, I'm a yellow belt.

02:20:34.880 | - You're a yellow belt in judo?

02:20:36.720 | I should be your instructor.

02:20:38.120 | (laughing)

02:20:39.600 | Promote you to orange.

02:20:40.560 | - I got a yellow belt in the sixth grade.

02:20:42.280 | I believe it was the sixth grade.

02:20:43.520 | I did it for about, I don't know, six months.

02:20:46.080 | - But you're also using judo in competition, basically.

02:20:51.080 | Aren't you doing like harai type throw,

02:20:52.760 | like you're doing-

02:20:54.080 | - Yeah, I don't know where I learned that.

02:20:55.200 | I just started doing it.

02:20:56.040 | - You just started lifting your leg

02:20:57.320 | in various ways until it worked?

02:20:58.600 | - Just figuring it out, yeah.

02:21:00.080 | - Doing different kinds of trips?

02:21:01.320 | - I looked at the sandboat guys doing it.

02:21:02.160 | I was like, "Can't be that hard."

02:21:03.960 | - Yeah.

02:21:04.800 | - Gave it a crack.

02:21:05.760 | - Well, they looked at your foot locks

02:21:07.360 | and they said, "That can't be that hard."

02:21:09.520 | - They said, "Can't be that hard.

02:21:10.480 | "Ban it from the tournaments."

02:21:11.800 | (laughing)

02:21:15.000 | - All right.

02:21:15.840 | (laughing)

02:21:18.520 | What do you think is the best takedown in nogi, jujitsu?

02:21:23.520 | Like what, like if people were trying to train

02:21:27.760 | for a competition, so on,

02:21:28.880 | like where you see the trends heading?

02:21:31.520 | - I think the foot sweep is like catching fire nowadays.

02:21:34.520 | See a lot of foot sweeps.

02:21:37.080 | Foot sweeps and arm drags,

02:21:38.120 | I would say pretty popular in our sport.

02:21:40.600 | - Arm drag.

02:21:41.440 | So you just got arm drag to, okay.

02:21:43.040 | Arm drag either to get them, like get to behind them

02:21:46.760 | or even just to cause reactions, make them pull away

02:21:49.360 | and we can start reattacking.

02:21:50.800 | - Are you talking about it in a context

02:21:52.720 | of what's the best takedown to score?

02:21:55.080 | What's the safest takedown to mitigate the risk

02:21:58.280 | of guillotine submission or most effective in general?

02:22:02.480 | - Yeah, most effective combined.

02:22:04.520 | Yeah, yeah.

02:22:06.400 | I mean, ultimately it's about scoring.

02:22:08.600 | - I think any sort of body lock, you know what I mean?

02:22:11.760 | Locking your hands around the body,

02:22:12.680 | being able to put them to the floor that way.

02:22:14.160 | I feel like that's most effective, safest.

02:22:15.920 | Might even have arisen out of a leg attack,

02:22:18.360 | a leg entry, upgrade to the body.

02:22:20.600 | - What about like foot sweeps, like outside foot sweeps?

02:22:23.680 | What do we?

02:22:24.720 | - I would say, yeah, you know,

02:22:25.880 | foot sweeps from outside foot sweeps

02:22:27.560 | or even like something like you're tossed on a poor body

02:22:30.160 | and you're sweeping the foot.

02:22:31.640 | - Yeah, those are all pretty safe.

02:22:32.840 | See, why is that scary?

02:22:33.920 | I don't understand.

02:22:35.120 | It's not scary at all.

02:22:36.240 | - I think it's the lifts that are scary.

02:22:37.800 | - The lifts, yeah.

02:22:38.640 | - Who's lifting people?

02:22:40.160 | - I'm like, you're like a good lifter.

02:22:41.320 | - Return?

02:22:42.160 | - I'm not, I mean, in master,

02:22:43.520 | like we're talking about older guys doing no gi.

02:22:45.600 | - Some of those old bosses take it very serious.

02:22:47.640 | - They just start lifting.

02:22:48.480 | - TRT worlds.

02:22:49.600 | - TRT world.

02:22:50.440 | - They're coming.

02:22:51.480 | They're coming to impress.

02:22:52.320 | - Grab a lift, all right.

02:22:53.840 | Just for the gram.

02:22:55.280 | Okay, what about submission?

02:22:57.280 | What's your favorite submission?

02:22:58.720 | And what do you think is the most effective submission?

02:23:01.680 | Except the buggy choke.

02:23:02.920 | - I would have to say the rear naked.

02:23:04.640 | It's definitely the one that's hit the most

02:23:07.280 | and the highest level of competition.

02:23:10.240 | - Was that, that was pretty interesting

02:23:11.680 | to see you escape all that and to put it on.

02:23:14.360 | That's the cool thing about EBI,

02:23:15.600 | to see like the world-class athletes.

02:23:18.120 | I was surprised that it's possible to escape

02:23:20.440 | with you on his back.

02:23:21.640 | - Gotta try some B cream.

02:23:22.920 | - Oh yeah.

02:23:23.760 | - B cream, as it helps?

02:23:24.980 | What's in the, what's the formula or is that a secret?

02:23:29.280 | - That is a proprietary blend for sure.

02:23:31.520 | - Okay, but that's what you use for greasing.

02:23:34.560 | That's what you greased before.

02:23:35.400 | - Allegedly.

02:23:36.240 | - Allegedly.

02:23:38.000 | Is there other application outside of grappling?

02:23:40.680 | Or?

02:23:41.520 | - I'm sure you can get creative.

02:23:42.360 | - All right.

02:23:43.400 | Thanks.

02:23:44.600 | Asking for a friend.

02:23:46.160 | Is that RNC for you as well?

02:23:47.800 | Rear naked?

02:23:48.880 | - Rear naked choke, I mean, overall favorite

02:23:51.000 | for like solidifying a finish.

02:23:53.080 | 'Cause like you can push, you can put somebody to sleep.

02:23:55.480 | Right?

02:23:56.320 | Even if they don't want to tag, put them to sleep.

02:23:58.420 | But as far as like something I've been working on now

02:24:00.760 | that I'm now starting to implement in competition,

02:24:03.120 | Yoko Senkaku side triangle is like, it's a beautiful thing.

02:24:06.600 | You have multiple options.

02:24:07.920 | You have the triangle to finish.

02:24:09.040 | If that fails, you have the Kimura.

02:24:10.840 | You could break the arm.

02:24:11.800 | You could also just transfer and take the back.

02:24:13.840 | So Yoko Senkaku, I'm a big fan of,

02:24:16.000 | and I continue to progress and get better at it.

02:24:18.160 | - Have you ever broken anyone's arm?

02:24:20.760 | - Oh yeah.

02:24:21.580 | I mean, the first few competitions,

02:24:23.200 | 'cause I was like, you know, pretty athletic grappler,

02:24:25.440 | or athletic wrestler going against like local black belts

02:24:28.480 | and brown belts.

02:24:29.320 | Like one of my first matches, I broke somebody at Kimura.

02:24:32.200 | Pretty much every time I've got a heel hook,

02:24:35.240 | which is only twice I've broken an opponent.

02:24:37.540 | If I have a joint lock, it's probably going to break.

02:24:40.840 | Like a lot of times it breaks before they tap.

02:24:43.360 | Yeah.

02:24:44.200 | - You seem like a really friendly fella.

02:24:45.480 | How hard is it to break an arm or break a joint?

02:24:49.600 | - Well, I don't think it's that hard.

02:24:52.000 | I think like if you're talking like about an arm bar,

02:24:55.240 | we have this position to where like people are kind of

02:24:57.240 | holding on, holding on, and then it slips

02:24:59.680 | and their arm starts going.

02:25:00.960 | And then it just breaks before they even, you know,

02:25:03.520 | get a chance to tap.

02:25:05.560 | - I love this point.

02:25:07.160 | - I knee barred a guy and he didn't tap one time.

02:25:09.080 | And it was actually, it was surprising.

02:25:12.120 | I had to put a lot of force into that.

02:25:14.200 | As opposed to arms, shoulders, and the ligaments in the knees

02:25:17.600 | and ankles, but to fully, this kid, Sambo kid,

02:25:21.180 | fully let it go.

02:25:23.840 | And he tapped it out.

02:25:24.680 | I think the angle is like up here.

02:25:26.040 | - They're built different.

02:25:27.340 | - Hopefully he can be reconstructed different.

02:25:31.920 | - He's rebuilt different.

02:25:32.760 | (laughing)

02:25:35.600 | - All right.

02:25:36.440 | What about a straight foot lock?

02:25:39.640 | You've ever, do you guys do straight foot locks at all?

02:25:42.600 | Or no?

02:25:43.900 | - Yeah, I mean, I'm learning them now.

02:25:45.120 | We had some kid come in the practice one day

02:25:47.360 | and like, fucking full on, all of us do.

02:25:50.120 | - With a straight foot lock.

02:25:50.960 | - Straight foot lock, just this little like Polish kid.

02:25:53.360 | - Not only did he foot lock everyone,

02:25:55.080 | but he told the entire world.

02:25:56.600 | (laughing)

02:25:57.800 | He sent out fucking emails,

02:25:59.640 | called his friends and family.

02:26:01.840 | We practically put a hit out on him in practice

02:26:04.040 | and he just sent everybody.

02:26:05.440 | (laughing)

02:26:06.480 | - Yeah, it's always interesting when you get like,

02:26:08.880 | yeah, people that specialize can surprise you

02:26:10.840 | that this could be effective stuff.

02:26:12.680 | Do you think there's other stuff

02:26:13.840 | that could be still discovered in Jiu Jitsu?

02:26:16.420 | Like what areas do you think are ripe

02:26:20.640 | with techniques to discover?

02:26:22.660 | Like wrestling is really interesting now.

02:26:25.200 | There's a lot of innovation happening in wrestling.

02:26:28.160 | - I think there'll be more innovation

02:26:29.520 | when we get people that are more adamant

02:26:31.880 | about standing up from bottom position.

02:26:33.960 | I think if we get more of the community,

02:26:35.680 | they're like, all right, I wanna get off the bottom.

02:26:37.440 | - DDD, just stand up.

02:26:39.080 | - Just stand up.

02:26:39.920 | - How Jiu Jitsu doesn't work.

02:26:42.040 | - We actually changed the name.

02:26:43.240 | How Sambo doesn't work if you just stand up.

02:26:45.160 | - Did you really?

02:26:46.000 | - Yeah.

02:26:46.840 | - All right.

02:26:47.660 | I'll change it to Jiu Jitsu when I pirate it

02:26:50.280 | and send it for free to the entirety of the Soviet block.

02:26:53.540 | (laughing)

02:26:55.320 | And Nikki Rod, do you think ego is useful for martial arts

02:26:57.760 | or does it get in the way?

02:26:59.260 | - Okay, I think you need to use it in both ways.

02:27:02.540 | For sure, have an ego,

02:27:04.840 | like if you're training competition mode,

02:27:07.420 | but also it can prevent you from learning

02:27:10.560 | and progressing if your ego is too high.

02:27:12.600 | Like you really have to shut the ego down

02:27:14.640 | when you're in the mode of learning

02:27:15.960 | and trying to develop skills

02:27:17.920 | 'cause you're gonna put yourself in these bad positions.

02:27:19.680 | You're gonna have issues with training partners

02:27:22.480 | that aren't necessarily up to your skill level,

02:27:25.660 | but because you're in these bad positions,

02:27:27.200 | you have to make these certain sacrifices.

02:27:29.240 | And for sure, ego can be a good or bad thing,

02:27:31.360 | but if you're able to shut the ego off and learn,

02:27:34.140 | then that'll have huge progression

02:27:35.380 | when it's time to put the ego into use during competition.

02:27:38.160 | - When's the last time you shut the ego off?

02:27:41.120 | - It's been a long time.

02:27:42.160 | (laughing)

02:27:44.420 | - What about you, Craig?

02:27:47.400 | I mean, you seem to be super easygoing.

02:27:50.680 | Is the ego just not part of it?

02:27:53.560 | - Oh, for sure.

02:27:54.400 | I just don't want anyone to know they've damaged my ego.

02:27:56.560 | You have to suppress it deep down.

02:27:58.920 | - There's a child underneath all of it crying always.

02:28:03.040 | - For sure.

02:28:03.880 | I think ego is good for a bit of perseverance.

02:28:05.680 | Like it'll help you stick it out

02:28:07.320 | against a tough battle with a training partner, for sure.

02:28:10.400 | A bit of ego's on the line.

02:28:11.760 | Plus the bands are back and forth.

02:28:13.280 | We're trying to stir each other up a bit.

02:28:15.440 | - Talk this shit, yeah.

02:28:16.280 | - I think that helps hone, sharpen the ego a bit.

02:28:18.700 | - Oh, what about you?

02:28:21.000 | Do you seem like a super humble guy?

02:28:23.040 | Is there a monster underneath?

02:28:24.480 | - It's a total act.

02:28:25.800 | - Yeah, I definitely think ego's a big motivator.

02:28:30.800 | I think it's very good to have in the aspect

02:28:34.720 | that it'll drive you to want to be one of the best

02:28:38.360 | in the world.

02:28:39.180 | But like Nicky Rod said,

02:28:41.240 | you need to be able to turn it off in the training room

02:28:43.200 | and force yourself into bad positions

02:28:45.180 | where you may not be winning.

02:28:46.640 | - Are there, like, Donna has mentioned Boris.

02:28:51.760 | Are there grapplers like Boris?

02:28:55.320 | This is a question from Reddit, actually.

02:28:57.480 | Boris-like characters, anybody you've trained with

02:28:59.880 | in the past who doesn't compete

02:29:01.440 | but is just an absolute beast in training?

02:29:04.240 | Like people you've met that are just like--

02:29:05.960 | - Well, somebody that I think has probably

02:29:08.080 | the best submission grappling in MMA,

02:29:11.480 | I think like Gilbert Burns is,

02:29:14.000 | his submission grappling is very, very good.

02:29:16.080 | I trained with him early on in my grappling career

02:29:18.400 | and I was really impressed by his ability to move,

02:29:21.340 | hold down opponents that are trying to stand up.

02:29:23.560 | And as a whole, he can get submissions and put people away.

02:29:27.340 | - Have you, when's the last time,

02:29:29.680 | have you trained with him recently or no?

02:29:31.320 | - No, it's been a few years.

02:29:33.120 | - Which is an impressive ability to submit, you're saying?

02:29:36.960 | - Yeah, like, I mean, you would see,

02:29:38.840 | I'd see Gilbert go against a few

02:29:41.080 | pretty decent black belts in the room and fare well.

02:29:43.760 | And maybe he gets to their back, puts a choke in,

02:29:46.040 | and it's like Gilbert's super high-level grappling

02:29:48.840 | or submission grappling.

02:29:50.280 | - Yeah, but he's pretty widely recognized as a monster.

02:29:53.280 | So I don't know, you didn't really answer the question.

02:29:56.080 | It's like you're not even listening anymore.

02:29:56.920 | - I don't remember what was the question.

02:29:58.440 | (all laughing)

02:30:01.020 | - All right, well, what, is there people,

02:30:05.680 | like you've done all these seminars,

02:30:06.840 | are there just, especially in the Eastern Bloc,

02:30:10.480 | the, you've seen, like you went to Kazakhstan,

02:30:13.240 | is there killers out there that--

02:30:14.760 | - Oh yeah, there's tough guys out there.

02:30:16.160 | Obviously I don't remember their names

02:30:17.680 | nor could I pronounce it if I did,

02:30:19.040 | but definitely some tough guys out there,

02:30:20.960 | obviously carrying skill sets over from wrestling for sure,

02:30:24.040 | not Sambo, but wrestling.

02:30:25.680 | - Wrestling, but yeah, are there just people

02:30:27.680 | that surprise you that just don't compete,

02:30:29.240 | that are really good?

02:30:30.080 | Are there, have you met those?

02:30:31.600 | - I feel like it's less so today

02:30:33.960 | 'cause there's so many more athletes in the sport,

02:30:37.120 | but definitely when I was coming up

02:30:39.160 | back like in Australia and stuff,

02:30:40.700 | there were guys I'd train with that wouldn't compete

02:30:42.360 | and that would be like super tough rounds for me.

02:30:44.760 | - Yeah, and there's so many more avenues

02:30:46.600 | for competing in general, so yeah.

02:30:50.280 | - What about you, have you met some monsters?

02:30:52.600 | - Yeah, one guy I could think of in particular

02:30:54.880 | is Jason Rau, he trains up in Long Island I think, right?

02:30:59.880 | Opened up his own gym out there.

02:31:02.480 | - Vanguard.

02:31:03.320 | - Yeah, Vanguard, he used to compete,

02:31:05.440 | but he would never be able to compete

02:31:07.120 | at the same level he would train at,

02:31:08.800 | so now he's just focused on mainly,

02:31:10.800 | opening up a gym and teaching his students,

02:31:14.320 | but he was a guy that was extremely good

02:31:16.840 | in the training room, world-class.

02:31:18.680 | I still think to this day he's legitimately

02:31:21.120 | one of the best in the world,

02:31:22.880 | but just doesn't compete anymore.

02:31:25.200 | - Who wins in a fight, a lion or a bear?

02:31:28.200 | - Polo bear?

02:31:30.960 | - This is for you, Reddit.

02:31:31.800 | No, not a polo, well yes, it's a good question.

02:31:33.240 | See, your polo bear is pretty impressive.

02:31:35.480 | No, grizzly bear.

02:31:36.560 | - Grizzly bear.

02:31:37.400 | I think a grizzly bear wins.

02:31:41.480 | - Well, who is the most threatening predator in Australia?

02:31:44.320 | Kangaroo?

02:31:46.440 | - Well, I mean, it's a tricky question here

02:31:47.560 | 'cause everyone's scared of the animals in Australia,

02:31:51.000 | but I mean, you get bitten by a snake,

02:31:54.000 | you get bitten by a spider, that's not that bad.

02:31:56.920 | Bear, America, a bear will just hold you down and eat you.

02:31:59.360 | That's a much more terrifying prospect for me.

02:32:01.480 | Even sharks, sharks are gonna be quick.

02:32:03.880 | No one sees the shark coming,

02:32:04.920 | the shark's just gonna bite you in half.

02:32:05.760 | - A bear will take a bite and chew.

02:32:07.480 | - A bear just holds you down and eats you,

02:32:09.200 | so that's frightening for me.

02:32:10.760 | Australia's a bunch of just weird shit that can kill you.

02:32:13.360 | - Did you see "Cocaine Bear," the movie that's coming out?

02:32:15.920 | - I saw the trailer, it looks good.

02:32:17.160 | - Yeah, yeah, so there's not every bear,

02:32:19.640 | there's like black belts and there's black belts,

02:32:21.120 | there's bears and there's bears.

02:32:22.800 | So I think that's what they often don't talk about.

02:32:25.000 | Everybody puts lions and bears in the same category.

02:32:27.720 | I think there's just some weak bears.

02:32:30.280 | - A lion would kill a black bear, I think.

02:32:32.560 | - Not every black, again, I'm trying to tell you,

02:32:34.560 | there's difference.

02:32:36.440 | - But grizzly and polar bear, I'm betting on those.

02:32:39.280 | - Yeah, no, I think grizzlies have the size,

02:32:41.360 | but actually every video I've seen of grizzlies,

02:32:43.240 | they tie out within like 20 seconds.

02:32:46.440 | They get bored.

02:32:47.600 | - That's the gas tank?

02:32:48.680 | - Yeah, the gas tank.

02:32:49.520 | - That's a Nicky Ryan gas tank, right?

02:32:50.360 | - Yeah, that's all they got.

02:32:52.400 | - Dream old.

02:32:53.240 | (laughing)

02:32:54.120 | - And they try to just take a breather.

02:32:57.480 | Like there's these crazy fights between bears

02:32:59.360 | and they last like 20 seconds.

02:33:01.040 | - I heard this story about a Russian family

02:33:03.880 | that was attacked by a bear in Russia and killed the dad.

02:33:07.680 | And it took so long to eat the daughter,

02:33:09.560 | she made three phone calls to her mom while I was eating her.

02:33:11.960 | And the first call, the mom thought she was pranking her.

02:33:14.720 | - That's crazy.

02:33:15.560 | - That's way scarier than what we go through now.

02:33:17.920 | Give me a snake bite any day.

02:33:20.120 | - Yeah, you know what, let me change the question.

02:33:22.600 | If you had to fight a bear or a lion,

02:33:29.000 | how would you try to defeat it?

02:33:30.560 | Do you think you have a chance at all?

02:33:32.040 | - Well, I think I'd attack a lion a little bit differently

02:33:35.600 | than I'd attack a bear.

02:33:37.080 | - What would be the difference?

02:33:38.800 | - Okay, well, I've seen this video where a lion's are eating

02:33:44.200 | and you have three like screeny guys walk up behind them

02:33:47.800 | and kind of scare the cat off of their food.

02:33:50.880 | I think maybe I produce some props, scare the lion away.

02:33:55.400 | But if I have to fight it straight on,

02:33:59.640 | I mean, the thing is that even if you take the back,

02:34:02.260 | like you can't like bite it or choke it,

02:34:03.720 | the mane is too big to lock your hands around.

02:34:05.960 | - Are you sure about that?

02:34:06.800 | 'Cause the mane is just hair.

02:34:08.040 | - Yeah, the mane is just hair.

02:34:08.880 | - Yeah, it's thick hair, it's like matted hair.

02:34:12.160 | I don't know, so I think-

02:34:13.880 | - Do you think you can maintain back control on a lion?

02:34:17.520 | - Maintain, yeah, yeah.

02:34:18.640 | But getting there, I think I fake high, go low.

02:34:23.160 | Make them think I'm going for the foot or something,

02:34:24.800 | a little paw sweep and I take the back.

02:34:27.000 | - What about a bear?

02:34:28.700 | I feel like they're easier,

02:34:30.200 | that might be easier to take, to hold back control.

02:34:33.480 | - Yeah, maybe, the thing is if the bear falls on its back,

02:34:36.440 | it's just gonna crush it.

02:34:37.280 | It's so big, it's substantially bigger than a lion, right?

02:34:40.200 | Like a full grown person.

02:34:41.480 | - And they're also like terrifyingly like loud

02:34:43.540 | with their roars and stuff.

02:34:44.920 | - Yeah, I think, so first of all,

02:34:46.720 | if I saw a grizzly, I'm like, "Oh, he's gonna attack me."

02:34:48.840 | I try to yell a little bit louder than them,

02:34:50.400 | maybe their turn a little bit, like give them a, "Oh."

02:34:53.000 | And then, yeah, for sure, I try to get behind it.

02:34:56.240 | I probably go like something weird,

02:34:58.720 | maybe like pull the eyes out or something, for sure.

02:35:02.160 | I mean, I'm going for the vital organs.

02:35:04.520 | - Play dead.

02:35:05.400 | - Play dead.

02:35:06.240 | - And then oil check it.

02:35:07.720 | - There's no pride in that.

02:35:09.280 | - Wow, pride even matters.

02:35:12.240 | See the ego, the same advice you gave,

02:35:14.260 | you gotta put the ego aside with a bear.

02:35:16.260 | Even then, even then.

02:35:20.060 | Would you, how would you fight a bear or a lion?

02:35:23.900 | Just play dead?

02:35:24.740 | - Play dead, yeah.

02:35:26.180 | Could you beat a kangaroo?

02:35:27.900 | A kangaroo.

02:35:28.740 | - Oh yeah.

02:35:29.580 | - Kangaroo?

02:35:30.400 | I'd beat the shit out of a kangaroo.

02:35:32.340 | - Dragon?

02:35:33.180 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:35:34.000 | I mean, are we boxing gloves?

02:35:35.140 | We just like-

02:35:35.980 | - How would a kangaroo attack a human?

02:35:37.460 | - Try to kick him with the claws.

02:35:38.620 | - Knock him down and then they chug him.

02:35:40.700 | - Stand on that tail.

02:35:41.540 | - Do the kangaroos do?

02:35:42.740 | - They choke each other, yeah.

02:35:43.980 | - They don't choke each other.

02:35:45.180 | - You don't believe me?

02:35:46.500 | You wanna watch a video?

02:35:47.340 | They choke each other out.

02:35:49.080 | - I've seen this, yeah.

02:35:50.280 | (laughing)

02:35:51.120 | - No?

02:35:51.940 | - Yeah.

02:35:52.780 | - Is this real?

02:35:53.620 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:35:54.440 | - With what?

02:35:55.280 | - They do this.

02:35:56.120 | - With a headlock or what?

02:35:56.940 | - Yeah, they knock him and just grip like this

02:35:57.860 | and hold him.

02:35:58.700 | - What's the grip?

02:35:59.540 | - Just the handle.

02:36:00.360 | - Like little paws, how are they gripping?

02:36:01.700 | - I promise you, I'm not lying to you.

02:36:03.540 | - Pretty sure I've seen the video.

02:36:04.380 | - They also do strange shit,

02:36:05.980 | like if there's a predator around,

02:36:06.940 | they'll wait in a pool of water

02:36:08.260 | and then if it comes to attack, they drown it.

02:36:09.860 | They're pretty smart.

02:36:10.900 | (laughing)

02:36:14.660 | - Okay, speaking of which,

02:36:15.780 | what's the most effective martial art

02:36:17.420 | for winning a street fight?

02:36:19.140 | You talked about rule sets and streets.

02:36:21.100 | I think you've talked about being a street,

02:36:24.060 | have you ever been in a street fight?

02:36:25.460 | - Yeah, just one.

02:36:26.660 | - Yeah.

02:36:27.700 | - Nothing special, nothing crazy, hey.

02:36:29.340 | - Yeah, you don't talk about that time.

02:36:31.540 | Like for self-defense purposes,

02:36:33.140 | what would be a strategy on the street?

02:36:35.980 | What's advice?

02:36:36.820 | - I feel like whoever wins the street fights,

02:36:37.740 | whoever's willing to take it the furthest, the fastest.

02:36:40.940 | You know what I mean?

02:36:41.780 | If you're thinking that you're gonna box

02:36:42.860 | and he's biting you, poking your eyes,

02:36:45.060 | that guy's gonna win.

02:36:46.100 | He wants it more.

02:36:47.340 | You know what I mean?

02:36:48.180 | That's why the crackheads fight.

02:36:50.060 | They go for the kill straight away.

02:36:52.140 | So I feel like it's more about

02:36:53.940 | who's willing to do the most that's gonna win that fight.

02:36:57.260 | - Fastest, the most fastest.

02:37:00.380 | - Who's got the least to lose, you know?

02:37:02.340 | - Yeah, we could also define winning differently

02:37:04.180 | 'cause you could also run away.

02:37:06.100 | - But in terms of technique-wise, wrestling, Judo.

02:37:11.100 | - I think if it's a one-on-one, I'd go wrestler wins.

02:37:14.740 | But if it's like multiple people,

02:37:17.440 | you gotta go Muay Thai, stay on your feet.

02:37:19.980 | Can't go down to the ground if it's more than one person.

02:37:22.700 | - Yeah, big double leg maybe.

02:37:26.580 | - Yeah, double leg, put him asleep on the impact, right?

02:37:29.940 | Forehead to the ground.

02:37:30.780 | - Yeah, what's the goal here?

02:37:31.620 | Is to win the fight and not go to prison?

02:37:35.660 | - I haven't thought of it through that way.

02:37:38.180 | Yeah, certainly, yeah.

02:37:39.740 | Yeah, not to kill the person.

02:37:41.700 | - You got mutual combat here in Texas, we're good.

02:37:44.220 | - Is that in Texas?

02:37:45.900 | - Do you know what the paperwork for that looks like?

02:37:47.980 | Do you have to actually sign something?

02:37:49.180 | Or can you just say--

02:37:50.020 | - I hope I don't need to find out.

02:37:51.260 | I did hear a story where guys were on 6th Street

02:37:57.140 | and they looked at a cop,

02:37:57.980 | they were like, "Mutual combat, mutual combat?"

02:38:00.220 | And just got the cops to say yes and just duked it out.

02:38:03.420 | That could be false though.

02:38:05.540 | - That sounds crazy.

02:38:06.900 | - I'm just saying.

02:38:07.740 | - I kinda admire that,

02:38:10.660 | but I've also been playing Red Dead Redemption recently.

02:38:13.020 | So I've internalized the cowboy a little too much.

02:38:17.860 | Just to return to gym stuff.

02:38:20.700 | No, because it's a business,

02:38:23.140 | because you're running a business, there's money involved,

02:38:25.660 | but you're also friends, but you're also training partners.

02:38:29.140 | Is there a tension that money creates

02:38:31.620 | that threatens to destroy friendships?

02:38:34.780 | - That's something I always worry about with money.

02:38:36.660 | I try not to go do any kind of business

02:38:38.860 | with friends or family.

02:38:41.180 | - I think if it were all very clear and honest and open

02:38:44.460 | at the start, it makes it much easier.

02:38:47.780 | I think people have issues when there's like,

02:38:49.420 | kind of like things are written in fine print

02:38:51.660 | and nobody knows the exact answers.

02:38:53.500 | - And a lot of Jiu-Jitsu guys can't read.

02:38:56.940 | You know, that makes it challenging as well.

02:38:57.780 | - We're learning that today.

02:38:58.860 | - Yeah.

02:38:59.700 | (laughing)

02:39:01.940 | - No.

02:39:03.460 | - It's definitely complicated though.

02:39:05.780 | - Yeah, I mean, it's not always obvious

02:39:08.180 | how to be transparent and stuff about everything.

02:39:12.060 | Have you felt that tension?

02:39:14.540 | 'Cause in the Jiu-Jitsu world, money's not really unlimited.

02:39:17.980 | Just running a school, what's that like?

02:39:19.660 | 'Cause this is the first time you're running a school,

02:39:22.060 | running a gym.

02:39:23.620 | - Yeah, I mean, it's just constantly updating people

02:39:25.460 | about what's going on, what your expectations are.

02:39:29.380 | You know what I mean?

02:39:30.220 | We've had some problems with coaches

02:39:32.420 | who I feel like think the pie is bigger than it is.

02:39:35.900 | You know what I mean?

02:39:36.740 | They feel like maybe we're getting rich out of this

02:39:39.460 | and they're missing out on things.

02:39:41.140 | So it's like, even amongst managing staff,

02:39:44.300 | that can be challenging too.

02:39:46.020 | So yeah, I mean, it's a constant work in progress

02:39:48.460 | to make, not only to make sure everyone's happy,

02:39:50.900 | but to make sure they're comfortable enough to reach out

02:39:52.780 | and tell you they're unhappy.

02:39:55.220 | But I feel like those challenges are common

02:39:57.340 | amongst any small business.

02:40:01.620 | - Still, it sucks.

02:40:02.780 | Just to mention, I'm clueless to this,

02:40:07.060 | but I'm just now learning this.

02:40:08.620 | Somebody I met and talked to and I really like is Isaac.

02:40:13.200 | - Yeah. (laughs)

02:40:16.620 | - Because you're also active on Reddit.

02:40:18.340 | What's your name on Reddit?

02:40:19.300 | - Oh, John Belushi. - John Belushi's mom.

02:40:21.100 | - As undercover as possible, you know?

02:40:22.620 | - Oh, it's not you.

02:40:23.460 | It's actually John Belushi's mom, right?

02:40:26.480 | So I've done my research, I guess.

02:40:30.540 | And I guess you guys had a falling out and have split.

02:40:34.700 | I just wanna say that, I don't know,

02:40:36.580 | the few interactions I've had with him,

02:40:37.980 | he's a beautiful human being.

02:40:39.700 | So that just shows to me-

02:40:41.820 | - Visually, maybe not internally.

02:40:43.420 | - And sexually, just the experience.

02:40:45.820 | No, he's just a kind person.

02:40:47.980 | I don't know, I liked him a lot.

02:40:50.100 | Like to me, in a business setting,

02:40:53.200 | yeah, tensions are created and it sucks.

02:40:57.620 | I don't know.

02:40:58.860 | I mean, I suppose money,

02:41:01.260 | all the stuff that happened in the jungle aside,

02:41:03.780 | probably money had a role to play to create extra tension.

02:41:07.260 | Money and egos about like, who is the leader,

02:41:09.700 | who is not the leader, it's tough.

02:41:11.180 | It's tough to manage that kind of stuff.

02:41:12.740 | I've seen it happen with jujitsu schools a lot.

02:41:15.100 | I don't know exactly what, 'cause it's like,

02:41:17.640 | there is also a hierarchy inside grappling,

02:41:21.260 | jujitsu schools, like people that are better or not.

02:41:23.820 | There's literally ranks, black belt and brown belt.

02:41:26.500 | There's like competitors that are better.

02:41:28.340 | I mean, it's a weird dynamic in which to operate.

02:41:31.860 | 'Cause like usually there's more politeness

02:41:35.180 | and like humanity layered into the way a company works.

02:41:39.740 | But here there's just a bunch of,

02:41:41.260 | I mean, it's like violence laid on display, plus money.

02:41:46.260 | It's crazy.

02:41:47.460 | Is there something you could say to that?

02:41:49.120 | Like how you try to minimize?

02:41:50.860 | Or something you wanna comment on, Isaac?

02:41:52.820 | - Yeah, I mean, it was unfortunate situation,

02:41:55.060 | but it just didn't work out.

02:41:56.580 | You know, like there's gonna be personality clashes.

02:41:59.940 | Some people--

02:42:00.940 | - I can't imagine anyone having a personality clash with you.

02:42:05.260 | - With me? - Yeah.

02:42:06.700 | It's hard to imagine.

02:42:08.340 | - Yeah, surprising, shocking.

02:42:09.780 | You know, I mean, I didn't even know what to say on that.

02:42:12.860 | I don't wanna touch on it too much,

02:42:15.300 | but obviously his expectations about his role in the gym,

02:42:20.300 | obviously different from ours,

02:42:23.100 | led to some personality clashes.

02:42:25.980 | It was sort of unresolved.

02:42:27.620 | Well, you know, some things happen that can't be resolved.

02:42:29.340 | You can't fix those things.

02:42:30.780 | You know, obviously a lesson, I hope for both of us,

02:42:34.460 | definitely a lesson for me from a management role

02:42:37.980 | to try to address these things sooner.

02:42:40.020 | But also sometimes I came up in a different time

02:42:42.960 | where there was no money, no opportunities.

02:42:45.100 | I had to pave that way totally for myself,

02:42:49.060 | especially coming from Australia.

02:42:50.700 | Like being a professional athlete in Jiu-Jitsu was not a thing

02:42:54.660 | so I had to pave a lot of opportunities for myself.

02:42:57.300 | And I feel like sometimes,

02:42:59.020 | oh, I don't know what the right word is.

02:43:02.620 | Sometimes people don't appreciate

02:43:04.660 | some of the ways you help them.

02:43:06.540 | And they just think, feel like almost they deserve

02:43:10.620 | or are entitled to certain things.

02:43:12.060 | And that is very difficult to manage.

02:43:15.860 | But I think again, like we both see the situation different.

02:43:19.460 | I do hope he finds a better,

02:43:21.860 | a more comfortable place to train.

02:43:23.500 | But yeah, obviously I've known him for a long time,

02:43:25.180 | sort of like a brotherly relationship.

02:43:27.480 | So that's gonna really make personal problems a lot worse

02:43:31.580 | when you're that close to someone, you know?

02:43:33.100 | - I just hate it that like I've seen in Jiu-Jitsu especially,

02:43:36.700 | but in other places where like close friendships

02:43:40.500 | were destroyed because of like gym stuff,

02:43:44.140 | like people running gyms.

02:43:45.820 | And it just, as a person who is in this case, just a fan,

02:43:50.580 | but in general, just like a student, it's like sucks.

02:43:54.860 | - But again, in my position, sometimes I wonder

02:43:59.380 | if there really was a friendship or mere opportunity.

02:44:03.500 | I have to be careful of that with some people in the sport.

02:44:06.660 | - It's tough, yeah.

02:44:07.500 | - Is it a sincere relationship or like,

02:44:09.900 | I mean, it's difficult for me to tell,

02:44:11.020 | or am I a means to an end?

02:44:12.940 | - Sure, but I think it's actually a trade-off

02:44:16.340 | because I think a lot of close friendships we have,

02:44:20.100 | like even relationships we have, like when tested,

02:44:23.940 | like can break if they're not properly communicated.

02:44:28.460 | Like some of it could be just misunderstanding

02:44:30.500 | of like for a prolonged period of time.

02:44:32.540 | It's not explained through just like a lack of integrity.

02:44:36.740 | It's just like you have to like talk through that shit.

02:44:39.860 | Like just be honest with each other.

02:44:41.220 | - Take some MDMA and really get down to it.

02:44:43.780 | - Drugs solve everything.

02:44:45.140 | You've already heard it from this conversation.

02:44:47.300 | I've actually haven't done MDMA yet.

02:44:49.540 | People say that that's something I would enjoy a lot

02:44:51.460 | 'cause my brain is, I think, natural on MDMA.

02:44:53.660 | - I'd recommend it for sure.

02:44:55.900 | - For sure.

02:44:56.740 | Is that what you did with Gabby on the L-Titan?

02:44:59.900 | Okay, nevermind.

02:45:00.740 | - She drugs me.

02:45:02.860 | - In general, why does there always seem to be drama

02:45:07.660 | in the Jiu-Jitsu world?

02:45:08.740 | Like outside of what's going on here?

02:45:11.700 | Or is that just--

02:45:12.540 | - I think it's universal to anything.

02:45:14.220 | - Drama's everywhere?

02:45:15.660 | And then drama rises to the surface?

02:45:17.580 | - Drama makes the money.

02:45:19.140 | - Yeah, I wish there was a little bit less.

02:45:21.580 | You have a bunch of, like we mentioned some of them,

02:45:25.780 | you have a bunch of instructionals out.

02:45:27.580 | What are some interesting things

02:45:28.900 | that you're looking forward to exploring

02:45:32.220 | in terms of teaching?

02:45:33.420 | So Just Stand Up is your most recent one, right?

02:45:35.900 | Yeah, you also have one called Power Bottom,

02:45:38.420 | an inclusive modern approach to the guard.

02:45:40.420 | (laughing)

02:45:41.380 | - Yep, yep.

02:45:42.220 | - What are some other ones?

02:45:45.460 | - False Reap Allegations.

02:45:47.100 | - False Reap Allegations, yeah.

02:45:48.580 | By the way, people talk about Power Bottom,

02:45:50.140 | again, hilarious title,

02:45:51.380 | but they say it's a really good instructional

02:45:53.460 | on like the guard.

02:45:54.940 | - Yeah, I try to at least be innovative.

02:45:56.780 | You know, like everyone else,

02:45:57.940 | I feel like's ripping off John and Gordon,

02:46:00.100 | putting some sort of slants on that.

02:46:01.860 | So I'm trying to take sort of a different approach.

02:46:04.420 | I think you can actively influence the sport

02:46:07.860 | with what you release,

02:46:09.420 | 'cause people are gonna try to emulate that.

02:46:10.860 | So I think those type of instructionals,

02:46:13.980 | Just Stand Up, Power Bottom,

02:46:15.340 | like approaching the sport differently,

02:46:16.540 | I think definitely has a positive impact

02:46:18.980 | on how people play the game.

02:46:22.060 | - Yeah, are you working on something now?

02:46:24.700 | - Probably a fundamentals course,

02:46:26.740 | just 'cause we're bringing out,

02:46:28.100 | we got the White Belt Program coming in.

02:46:29.780 | So I'm trying to develop a fundamentals course

02:46:32.420 | along the line of the constraint-based learning stuff

02:46:34.660 | we were talking about today,

02:46:35.500 | like a way to approach learning as a beginner

02:46:38.740 | to sort of speed up the process a bit

02:46:40.820 | and not make it as so technique dense,

02:46:43.740 | at least have it a bit more fun.

02:46:45.180 | - And focusing in on just like examples of problems to solve.

02:46:48.820 | - Exactly, yeah.

02:46:49.660 | Approaching judicially learning that way.

02:46:51.700 | Like, I mean, kids learn quick through games.

02:46:53.780 | I think adults are capable of that

02:46:55.900 | to a certain extent as well.

02:46:57.300 | - You're releasing that instructional

02:46:58.900 | on pre-match preparation?

02:47:00.900 | - Yes.

02:47:01.740 | - What other stuff?

02:47:02.980 | Do you have anything on a body lock pass?

02:47:05.180 | - Yeah, I have a body lock or a body lock DVD

02:47:08.140 | or instructional.

02:47:09.500 | Yeah, I have the pre-match ritual coming out.

02:47:10.980 | I also have, I'm filming how to build athleticism

02:47:14.820 | for grappling.

02:47:16.380 | Just really trying to capture different angles,

02:47:18.340 | kind of like the same, you know,

02:47:19.580 | with Craig's zone,

02:47:20.820 | try not to do the same thing that everybody else does.

02:47:22.980 | You know, there's a ton of wrestling,

02:47:24.700 | ton of jujitsu instructional.

02:47:27.420 | - And the steroid results are coming out.

02:47:29.740 | - Oh yeah, yeah.

02:47:30.700 | More plates, more dates.

02:47:31.700 | You know, Derek runs that.

02:47:33.100 | Hit me up for a blood panel test,

02:47:36.060 | like an impromptu thing.

02:47:37.300 | And I did it a few days ago

02:47:38.660 | and I believe the results will come out shortly.

02:47:40.940 | - Oh yeah.

02:47:42.140 | Do you know the results?

02:47:43.260 | What are you betting on, Lex?

02:47:44.700 | - What do you think?

02:47:47.060 | It's hard to believe.

02:47:48.420 | - Yeah, it's very impressive.

02:47:51.260 | (laughing)

02:47:53.100 | You're putting me in an awkward position here.

02:47:55.660 | - Do you think you'll face Gordon soon?

02:48:02.660 | - I'm open to it.

02:48:05.580 | I don't know how soon, maybe in the next six months.

02:48:08.620 | I could see me facing him before ADCC Worlds.

02:48:12.780 | - I think that's a great rivalry.

02:48:14.780 | I think it's a really interesting one.

02:48:16.380 | - It's fun for me.

02:48:17.300 | - Is there any chance that the two,

02:48:24.140 | the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany get back together?

02:48:27.300 | That DDS, under whatever name, gets back together?

02:48:32.060 | - No, absolutely not.

02:48:34.740 | - Highly unlikely.

02:48:35.580 | I mean, we kind of did this to back up Nicky Ryan

02:48:39.740 | and we're sticking with our guy.

02:48:42.660 | - So what do you think?

02:48:44.580 | - Yeah, I think there's just too many personality conflicts

02:48:47.180 | for it to really ever work again.

02:48:49.100 | - Do you think there will always be war in the world?

02:48:52.900 | - War?

02:48:55.100 | - Yeah.

02:48:55.940 | - Oh yeah, I think from the beginning of time,

02:48:58.060 | it's been some kind of war, some kind of battle.

02:49:01.340 | Controversy is what helps people evolve.

02:49:04.540 | - Until AI, super intelligent AI,

02:49:08.500 | becomes way more powerful than humans

02:49:11.180 | and humbles all of us with his power before he destroys us.

02:49:14.900 | - Until it runs out of batteries.

02:49:16.460 | (laughing)

02:49:17.460 | You guys are screwed.

02:49:18.500 | (laughing)

02:49:20.740 | - I'm really fortunate to be able to hang out with you,

02:49:26.780 | to train with you, and thank you so much for talking today.

02:49:29.580 | (laughing)

02:49:31.340 | - That's the best ending.

02:49:33.580 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:49:35.060 | with Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nicky Ryan.

02:49:38.340 | To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors

02:49:41.020 | in the description.

02:49:42.420 | And now, let me leave you with some words

02:49:44.260 | from Miyamoto Musashi.

02:49:46.060 | You must understand that there's more than one path

02:49:49.340 | to the top of the mountain.

02:49:51.540 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

02:49:54.380 | (upbeat music)

02:49:56.980 | (upbeat music)

02:49:59.580 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

B-Team Jiu Jitsu: Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nicky Ryan | Lex Fridman Podcast #363

Chapters