- How would a kangaroo attack a human? - Knock 'em down and then they choke 'em. - Do the kangaroos do? - They choke each other, yeah. - They don't choke each other. - You don't believe me? You wanna watch a video? They choke each other out. - I've seen this, yeah.

- I mean, probably the most annoying one was obviously the one where I had Gordon Arnby I was like, "Tap, bro." And he wouldn't tap, so I let him out. - I didn't get surgery, I didn't do essentially any rehab, I just have noise seal on my left leg.

- So what's it like having noise? - The surgeon goes, "You've got two options, "surgery, rehab only." Nikki goes, "I'll do nothing." Yeah, I mean, what could possibly go wrong if you're the world's best grappler, hates you, and you're gently provoking him behind the scenes every day? Well, I mean.

- In Texas. - And you've stolen his brother, held him for ransom. - It is like a story of a shitty Western. - The last part of a difficult wake up for me is I try to find a sad movie and at least cry about a pound out. That really gets me over the line.

- What are the rules in the streets? - Do you think if you're on steroids you would have finished the choke? - I mean, for sure. - Who knew that the cure to the Dagestani wrestling were the Aussies? - The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, Nikki Rod, and Nikki Ryan, who together with Ethan Krelenston and others make up the B Team, a legendary jujitsu team here in Austin, Texas.

It was formed after the so-called Donahar Death Squad, the team headed by John Donahar, split up into New Wave Jiu-Jitsu and B Team Jiu-Jitsu, both located here in Austin, Texas. There has been a lot of trash talk back and forth, including accusations of greasing and steroid use. And I, as a practitioner and fan of grappling, jiu-jitsu, and martial arts in general, am here for it.

To see the best grapplers in history, go at it, both on the mat and on Instagram. I like the people on both teams and train with both, and am really happy to see the exciting, rapid evolution of the sport that these athletes and coaches are catalyzing. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Craig Jones, Nikki Rod, and Nikki Ryan. Craig, can you introduce everyone? - Yep, so we got Nikki Rod here, brown belt, two-time ADCC silver medalist. Nikki Ryan here. That's it. (all laughing) - Who are you?

- And I'm Craig Jones, also two-time ADCC silver medalist. - Silver medalist, so the number one loser. - Number one loser. - And maybe a little bit more, your bio says, "Widely known as the Black Belt Slayer, "hails from New Jersey, the land of pizza and biceps." - Yes, that's pretty accurate.

- You also do carry a gun on you a lot? - Yeah, I keep it loaded, you know, keep it on me. - You have one today? - In the car. - That was a mistake, that was your first mistake. - Yeah, I think you're too close. (all laughing) - And you are Nikki Ryan, what else is there?

What else do we know? - Gordon Ryan's brother. - Gordon Ryan's brother. - Waiting for that one. (all laughing) All right, so and you're all together, part of the leadership of the B team here in Austin. Let's just get out some introductory questions. What in general accomplishment of the things you mentioned are you most proud of?

- I mean, I'm proud just to not have to work a full-time job just to get by on the bullshit I've done so far. - Yeah. - Honestly. - Just making money of a thing you love. - Exactly, yeah. - When was the first time you made money on a thing you love?

- Oh, probably a jujitsu tournament. I think maybe in Abu Dhabi where I won $1,000, thought I was rich. - Yeah, yeah, what'd you spend that $1,000 on? - Probably something bad, probably drugs or something at the time, maybe blew it at the after party. (all laughing) - That's a good introduction to Craig.

So what about you? When's the first time you made money on jujitsu? Or what's actually stepping back, like what's the thing you're most proud of? Is it a similar kind of thing? - I think I'm most proud of is, I mean, for sure two 80cc silver medals, which hurts 'cause you're so close to getting that gold, but it takes time.

I'm understanding that sport of jujitsu takes quite a while to be at the tip top, to be the absolute best. So, and I'm just being consistent in my training and my craft and I'll get that number one spot one day. - What failure or loss is the most painful to you?

- I don't know, I have a pretty short term memory. So my losses, I just forget about 'em. Yeah, I mean, for sure my loss at this past 80cc in the finals, that one sunk in because I definitely thought I was gonna win. I mean, like it takes a while to produce the skills or the reactions more so that you need to have to be that number one pound for pound guy.

And pre 80cc, I was coming off an injury. So it took me a little bit to find the right mentality and physicality that I needed in order to get the wins that required gold. So yeah, it's just process. - Interesting, you keep saying process, like it takes a while to build up.

So you're not like thinking of a loss like 80cc as like a specific failures, you're not, you haven't gone long enough in a particular process to being a champ. - Well, I mean, for me, I'm closing in on five years of specifically jujitsu training. I'm about four and a half right now.

And yeah, it's just, you constantly have these ups and downs in training where like, as long as you stay consistent, you'll have a gradual raise, but it's still, you'll have these peaks and lows and just trying to get better every day. I'm definitely not where I will be in a few years from now, but I'm striving to get there.

- Are you actually a brown belt or was that a joke? - Brown belt, yeah. - You're a brown belt, like how many stripes? - No stripes. - No stripes. - Stripeless. - Okay, is that part of the process that you're working through? - Definitely part of the process.

I think a black belt is just based upon how much knowledge you have. Obviously, if you're talking competitive wise, like from when I started, I was able to beat most black belts. That's just kind of how I was gifted from my wrestling experience. And the time will come when it's right, but I'm not in a rush at all.

I'm continuing. I just kind of take every day for what it is and try to improve upon that. - I mean, I want to give him the black belt. Nikki Ryan says he's not ready. (laughing) - Are you guys, as no-gi folks, do you take that seriously? Like the black belt?

Or how much does it come into play into? - Yeah, I mean, it's like Nikki Rod said, it's based off of knowledge, not just what you do out on the competition mats. 'Cause like you said, he had years of wrestling experience and obviously he's very physically gifted. So we grade based off of the amount of knowledge that you have.

- How do you measure knowledge? - I think teaching is a good measurement of it. Like how well you're able to show the moves and really make sure that you have an understanding of what you're doing. - Yeah, it's an interesting rank. It's like something that takes many years to accomplish.

And for a lot of people, it's truly meaningful. It's like it represents a particular step in a journey. But for you guys, it's almost like different because you've been so focused on competition that I guess if you take it seriously, it is a big step for you too. Like as martial artists, that's bigger than just being like top of the world competitors, right?

So I thought it was a joke. You guys are actually taking it seriously. - That he's a brown belt. - That he's a brown belt and you're taking seriously the rank of black belt and like, it's part of your journey. - Think by the time I get a black belt, I'll be no more pound for pound.

I think it'd be pretty nice to accomplish that as a brown belt and then maybe toss a black belt on top. - Maybe get promoted on the podium. What do you guys, do you love winning or hate losing more? - I definitely don't hate losing. If it pays the bills, I don't mind.

- Oh, really? - Yeah, but honestly, if I win, I feel more relief than anything rather than like excitement and stuff. I'm like, oh, fuck, thank God that's over. - I hate losing for sure. But I understand that it's necessary to get to where you wanna be. And then winning is like, I mean, what I think winning is probably the closest you can get to like heroin or something.

'Cause I mean, we're on a, like if you do have extreme success and a torment that you've been adamant about training for and competing in for a while and you end up winning it, I mean, I feel like you're on that high for days at a time afterwards. - Heroin's gonna be better.

- You think so? I'm gonna stick with no, but. - I'm not gonna suck dick to win. - You suck dick for heroin? Okay. (laughing) I guess that's a good point, yeah. - Well, you know, like, because you're coming from a little bit of a wrestling culture. One of the things I really love is at the end of the match, when they lose, they just, there's no, they just run off.

They're like almost pissed off. It's like some mixture of anger and frustration at themselves. - I think sometimes that people like freak out on the mat. And I think that's just to show everybody, like they're acting like they cared a lot and really maybe they didn't work enough to get to where they wanted, to where they expected to be and they lost.

And then they had this big boost of emotion like after their loss. But yeah, I mean, I think you just cry in the mirror and not to everybody else, you know. - Have you ever cried watching a movie? - I don't think I've ever cried, period. - Okay. - Have you cried watching a movie?

- Not yet, not yet. - "The Notebook"? - I try to avoid those movies. Actually, I lie, actually. - "Titanic"? - The last part of a difficult wake up for me is I try to find a sad movie and at least cry. I bet a pound out. That really gets me over the line.

Low energy cutting. - The tears. (laughing) There's other following liquids I could talk to you about, but let's just continue on. - Low energy. (laughing) - What about you, Nicky? Love of winning versus hate of losing. - I'm a very competitive person, so I for sure hate losing more than I like winning.

I do think it's something that's kind of held me back over the past few years 'cause it makes it so that I'm not as active as I should be 'cause it's like I really hate that feeling of, you know, after a match that you just lost. So it kind of prevents me from competing, so it's definitely something I need to work past.

- So like when you think about a competition, the possibility of losing, which is always there in competition, is the thing that like weighs heavy on you in the months and weeks leading up to it. - Yeah, my whole life, you know, my financial stability, everything depends on, you know, my ability to go out there and compete and my ability to teach.

So, you know, it's a huge hit to the brand if you lose. So, you know, leading up to matches, that's definitely something that's in my mind. - I know, so you guys are like world-class athletes, but for me, more like a hobbyist competitor. I compete a lot. The thing I was, 'cause I really wanted to win, the thing I was probably most afraid of was not just losing, but like embarrassing myself.

- Yeah. - Even actually winning by stalling. That was the thing I hated the most about myself in terms of crying in the mirror. Is like being too afraid to take risks after I'm up on two points or something. - I think you gotta, in competition, sometimes it's good to take the emotion out of it.

It's too easy sometimes to like think about, oh, my girls in the crowd, my family's watching, like I wanna win 'cause they're there. But at the highest level, if you're emotional at all, no, that's affecting you. - Yeah, that's tough though. That's tough, especially like leading up to it, when you're on the mat maybe, but leading up to it.

I think it's okay to be emotional prior. Like if we know ADCC is coming up and we have a big match, like definitely I'll go out in practice and I'll visualize, I'll put myself in that competition. That way when it's game time, it's like I've been there a thousand times already.

- So not the actual competition, but even leading up to it, like stepping on the mat, like all the walk towards it, all that. - All that stuff. Like I'll do the same exact warmup for weeks on end until my competition day comes. That way, when I compete, I'm just like, oh, it's another Tuesday at practice.

- All right, what about you, Craig? How do you prepare mentally for a tournament like ADCC? - I push it completely out of my mind. Don't even think about it. Try to avoid any visualization, any rituals, warmups, anything like that. Block it out until the last second. Yeah, try not to think about it.

I just go to training to have fun, learn a bit. So I try to approach competition the exact same way. I don't warm up at training, do very little warmup for competition. - Uh-huh, and you just step on the mat? - Step on the mats. My philosophy is there's no warmups on the street.

(laughing) - We're so vastly different. (laughing) All right, so you like legit don't warm up? - No, I probably should now I'm 31, but I would just like in the gym, take it easy the first round. You know, like if I look around the room and Nikki Ryan's there, I might go, all right, we'll have an easier first round today.

Jump in. (laughing) - So even for like the most high stakes matches, you try to push it out? - Yeah, I didn't even think about it. - What about like all the social, like Instagram posts you have to do about that match? You just make a joke out of it and kinda-- - Yeah, I mean, it's all kinda pretty silly.

You know, we're just wrestling each other. We put the meaning into it, but to someone that doesn't follow the sport, it looks stupid. - Well, all of human existence is pretty silly. Like what are we doing? None of us really know what's going on. We kinda have sex to reproduce.

We get hungry, we eat, and then we're all chasing money and cars and whatever the hell. In a capitalist society, or we worship a dictator in a authoritarian regime. Yeah, and then we get off on, we'll let power abuse us, and then we just murder others because we get off on it.

Yeah, and then eventually all of us will die because the sun will run out of energy 'cause colonizing other planets is very difficult. So none of it matters. It's a good philosophy. It's pretty good. - That's exactly what I was thinking. - How does the sun run out of energy?

(laughing) - You caught me there. It's burned out. It's a nuclear fusion engine that eventually burns out. - Like when you get tired of training. - Yeah. - It's never happened. I try to get tired. I just like, dude, it's not working. (laughing) - All right, cool. So you legit don't care about losing.

It doesn't weigh heavy on you. - I try not to list, like if I win, I try to block out all the compliments, all the niceties and stuff. So I try to do the same with losing. It's happened. Move on to the next one. Don't dwell on it too much.

- And sometimes make a joke out of it. - Yeah, exactly. Winning or losing, with the right joke, we can make money off of the events that transpired. That's what's most important. - Excellent, thank you. I have a bunch of your merch. - Oh, nice. - Thank you. - This one's the Jordan Burroughs ripoff.

- All I see is silver. The way it pronounces Burroughs is very, very sexy. Okay. - I throw lines at people and I try to gauge their reaction. Sometimes I'll say something to Nikki and I'll be like, all right, that's probably crossing the line. You know what I mean?

We'll tone it down for the public. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not just, right, you have to think, is this crossing the line? - Yeah, yeah. I get as close to it as possible. I feel like you can't really cross it. - And then cross it just a little bit.

- Just a little bit, yeah. - Okay. Speaking of which, you said that I'm Switzerland in World War II since I'm friends with both you and Gordon and John. - Very rich country. - Are you a Hitler or a Stalin, by the way, in this analogy? Would you like to be Hitler or Stalin?

And should you make a t-shirt out of it? - I mean, a Nazi t-shirt, I don't know how well that sells. - I think it would, you know, I think let's brainstorm on this one offline. I think since Hitler lost, so he got second place in World War II.

- That's true, that's true. - I think that makes you Hitler. Anyway, to the degree that you can, can you tell the story of how, the time you've had with the Donahoe Death Squad and why you split up? - I competed against Gordon for ADCC and EBI in 2017.

And I remember I competed against him at ADCC and then we had the EBI event. And then I had a Kassai. I used to compete all the time, every week. I wouldn't even do the preparation or anything. I'd just be like trying to do seminars, make money and then jump in and compete.

I remember I showed up to Kassai after I faced him twice and there were like four locker rooms and they put me with all the DDS guys. It was just me and all of DDS. And I think we competed the weekend before. So I thought it was gonna be super awkward, but it was actually pretty chill.

And the Kassai was in New York and they suggested to come train that week. So I came trained, hung out with them a bit. Ultimately the goal was to move to America and join a bigger team just 'cause that flight to Australia is death. Australia is so far away from everywhere.

It's kind of like not realistic to base yourself in Australia when all the tournaments are in America. And then I went and trained with the guys and they just had a massively deep talent pool in that room. Like show up to like a meant to be 7 a.m. actual 8 a.m.

class on Brazilian time. And there'd be like a hundred people in there maybe I don't know how many black belts, but a ton of elite guys. And I was coming from Australia, training with Lachlan Giles, but really that room was pretty shallow. And like most people had serious jobs and stuff.

So it was like basically me just training with Lachlan, maybe a couple of other guys, and then to go to New York and have access to a wide array of training partners and guys that are training twice each day. I feel like that's what you really need. You need people that can train as much as you are.

- You get humbled. - Humble. - You get humbled in that room at first. - For sure, 'cause my style at the time was basically a rip off version of what they were doing. Leg locks came in. I remember just watching Eddie Cummings nonstop and just seeing this guy rip people's legs off.

And I was like, you know what? That's probably a good move. You know, that looks like an easier path to victory than trying to beat these guys at what they're good at already. My philosophy at the time was if it's bothering old Brazilians, it's bothering them for a reason.

It's probably effective. And that's the path I took to sort of try to rip off their moves. And then obviously to go into that room, try to do them to them, it's gonna be a bit more difficult. - All right, so that's how it started. How did you end up here?

- How do we end up here? - We're in Austin, Texas. - I mean, I like to think of Puerto Rico as apocalypse now. John Danaher as Colonel Kurtz. Things got very weird in the jungle and the teams went in two different directions. But honestly, I mean, it's not really my story to tell.

I had some issues with some of those people. At the time of the split, I got along very well with John. I feel like me and him connected very well. I don't know why that was. Maybe it was just 'cause he missed home. He missed a familiar accent, Australian, New Zealand accent.

But I mean, I basically followed Nicky, left with Nicky, sort of that core group of guys left with Nicky. And I mean, I just backed, there was personal problems and I just backed Nicky, basically. - Got it. Just sticking on you for a bit. Is there a part of you that finds it heartbreaking that DDS split up?

This part of you miss working with John and everybody? Now, can you steal me on the case for that? - I mean, I miss certain aspects of it, but I also do prefer the freedom of being apart from it. It's obviously a very strict regime under John Danaher. You know, obviously there's parts of it I miss.

The parts the public doesn't see of John, the behind the scenes banter, I feel like he's very conscious of the image he portrays to the world. But basically, closed doors, he's always making jokes, always finding, I guess, more in line with the Australian Kiwi sort of culture. But you don't really see that in the public eye.

So that perspective, I do miss that relationship with John. In terms of setting aside personal differences, Gordon was a good training partner, definitely a good training partner to train with. But obviously the negative things we can't really talk about outweighed all of those things. And we obviously had to make a decision to leave.

- The things that happened in the jungle. - The things that happened in the jungle. - Should never be spoken of. - That I personally cannot speak of. Yeah, but obviously I do miss certain aspects. Like, I mean, nothing's all bad, nothing's all good, you know? - Yeah, this goes back to your, like, everything we're doing is silly.

- Yeah, exactly. That's why I don't get people take it so serious, martial arts so serious. It's just pretty stupid, really. Especially in the Gi, it looks just, it looks bad. And then I see-- - I mean, it's pretty silly with and without the Gi. It's just a bunch of apes.

- What's silly about no Gi, and what's silly about the Gi, and just mixed and matched bottoms there, you know what I mean? - Wait, which one? - Sambo, yeah. - I see what you're doing. Brother, you come to my house and offend my people. All right. We're gonna go to every dark place, apparently.

Nick, how did you get with DDS? Like, what was that journey like? Is there, try to see if there's things that you remember fondly that you've gotten from the experience. - All right, so the way I started training with DDS, initially I was training for like, well, initially I was a bouncer, right?

I dropped out of college to pursue this fitness modeling career. I ended up signing with Wilhelmina Models up in New York, and I was like, just trying to get in better shape. And while I was bouncing, kind of the talk of like, you know, who's tougher came up between the wrestlers and a few of the bouncers that train Jiu-Jitsu.

And, you know, they convinced me to go to a practice, and I went to my first practice over there. And for the most part, I just controlled everybody, got on top of them, was able to avoid like, kind of like, you know, shitty submissions, 'cause I had an awareness of the sport, and, you know, I'm a fan of fighting and whatnot.

So, you know, I kind of understood it pretty well. And then soon after that, I joined a school, and my second week of Jiu-Jitsu, I started competing, had pretty good success. You know, I was like subbing a few black belts and beating everybody like, you know, pretty decisively with points and stuff.

And about three months into training locally, I got connected with Gordon Ryan and John Danaher up in New York, and I started, I committed to, you know, make the drive up there as many days as I could. At the time, I lived in South Jersey, and it was about a two and a half hour, three hour drive without traffic to New York.

- Where in South Jersey? - Gloucester County, Clayton, New Jersey specifically, but Gloucester County. Yeah, so it was about 130 miles, and without traffic, you know, about two and a half hours or so, but on the way back, man, it'd be three plus sometimes, you know, when you're catching that rush hour.

- What year was this, do you remember? - This was in 2018. - South Jersey for a bit. I forget how young you are. - Yeah. - I was there before, before all that, all right, cool. Anyway, you're doing the long drive, and then what? - Yeah, doing the long drive, and then, you know, once I won ADCC trials, I was able to make a couple bucks, and then, you know, I got my silver medal at ADCC, and I was able to afford to live up there in New York in North Jersey area.

So I lived up there, trained there full-time every day, and, you know, it was kind of sucked with the team throughout the turbulent times, and found ourself in Austin. - In the jungle. - In the jungle, yeah. - One of the things we shall not speak of. (laughing) What are the things that you remember that you've learned from John Donaher from your time you spent with him?

- Yeah, I mean, I definitely learned a ton from John and the team as a whole. Like, you know, you have to be the guy that asks questions in that type of environment, right? 'Cause you're not gonna get singled out to be that specific star or the best guy in the room when you have all these other stud athletes.

So I really had to seek out and figure out the kind of questions that I needed to ask. And once I became a bit more verbal with my training, and, you know, I'm expressing all my curiosities about grappling to these guys, definitely helped boost my technique and my career as a whole.

- Yeah, did you understand what kind of stuff, like, technically, you wanna get good at, what fits your body, what would be good for you, what are your weaknesses and all that? - So initially, when I started grappling, I had an innate ability to just get to opponent's back.

So I was like, all right, I'm good at getting to the back, let me perfect controlling the back and then submitting opponent via rear naked choke. And then besides that, I really focused on leg lock defense. And then eventually came the body lock pass where, you know, I'm really good at body lock pass on my opponents now.

And yeah, it just takes quite a long time 'cause you have to find different sequences and then there's always these, an abundance of opportunities that your opponent gets from these specific sequences. So it takes a while. - Is there part of you that finds the fact that DGS split up heartbreaking?

- I definitely, you know, having one person to go to that runs practice every day, that's, you know, consistent, it was definitely a gift, but now I'm also gifted with many, many other partners. I have Nikki Ryan, you know, Craig Jones. (all laughing) We have Ethan, Crelacy, Damian Anderson.

So a full team of knowledgeable athletes that I can continue to go to with multiple questions, but yeah, definitely it took me some time to adjust to training or to learning from, you know, specifically my team and not just one person. - We should mention for people just listening, 'cause you can't visually see that Nikki Ryan is currently terrified and Craig Jones is currently enjoying the fact that he's terrified.

But anyway, can you talk about your, Nikki, can you talk about your time with DDS? - I started training when I was like around 13. You know, my brother Gordon had started prior to me and I really just went into training just as like a means to exercise and lose weight at the beginning 'cause I was pretty fat as a kid.

So I went to the first class, loved it, and then just started training every day at Gary's Gym, Brunswick. And then during the summer when I'd get off from school, they would take me up to New York to train under John. And you know, I just absolutely loved it.

I knew what I wanted to do with my life at a young age. So I ended up dropping out of school actually after my freshman year in high school. So yeah, 15, I ended up dropping out and just pursuing jiu-jitsu full-time, you know, training every day up in the blue basement.

- Like what aspects of jiu-jitsu made you know that this is the thing for you? - It was just something I just enjoyed being, you know, like on the mats every day. I love that there's, you know, a problem solving aspect to it. So it's, you know, it's mentally challenging, it's physically challenging, helps me get in shape.

So I just, yeah, right off the bat, I knew I loved it. - Okay, so then we'll go to the jungle. What happened in the jungle? (both laughing) And in general, like... (both laughing) I like this, I like this. This is like this like shroud of mystery that she'll never be penetrated, that she'll never be like-- - We've got a book deal, it's coming one day.

- A book deal? - Obviously he left high school, he's not riding it. (both laughing) - Okay, I'll do the Russian translation. (both laughing) Okay, so what are things that you enjoyed that you remember from working with John Donner? - Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously he's considered one of the best coaches in the world.

You know, very charismatic guy when you see him in person. You know, I pretty much was, you know, kind of raised in the DDS, you know, that's where I spent the majority of my time every day. So I obviously had very deep connections, you know, with John, my brother, Gary, you know, even Eddie Cummings and stuff back then.

So obviously I miss interacting with those guys every day. And, you know, it's like they said, it's good to have somebody to kind of crack the whip at you every day. And John was very good at that. - When you're like younger in your teenage years, you can kind of, you like have to get humbled, right?

There's like a process to that. - Yeah, for sure. - And it's a pretty good room to get humbled in, I guess. - Yeah, exactly. I mean, I started training with them just when like everybody started to break out. Gary was like the biggest name at the time, just 'cause he had won ADCC trials already.

And he had a crazy match with Kron, had Kron Gracie at ADCC. But Eddie was just starting to break out. Gordon just started winning EBI. So I started training under John, you know, right when everything was exploding. - What are the good things about life, about jiu-jitsu you learned from your brother?

- Both me and my brother never really wanted to, you know, work a full-time job doing something that we hate. And he was always, you know, a very confident person. So he just went, you know, fully started pursuing jiu-jitsu. So I'm very happy that, you know, he did that.

And I ended up following in his footsteps. Because you can ask these guys, I'm a lazy sack of shit outside of the mat. So that's definitely one thing that I'm very grateful for. - That he paved the way, like you can make money doing the stuff you love. - Yeah, exactly.

And he was a big reason, you know, why my parents eventually let me drop out of school. Because, you know, when they were coming up, there was no money in the sport. It was very hard to make a full living. Like if you wanted to actually make a living, you'd eventually have to transfer to MMA.

And I feel like Gordon and Gary and those guys were, you know, some of the first people to make a very good living off of just jiu-jitsu. - At this party, you find it heartbreaking that you've split up from DDS, but also from your brother in terms of spending time in the mat every day.

- Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, growing up, you know, obviously he's my big brother. I looked up to him a lot. So I definitely, like I said, I miss interacting with those guys. I was pretty much raised, you know, in that blue basement, you know, that John was like, you know, a father figure to me.

So I definitely, you know, miss seeing those guys every day. - Do you have animosity towards Gordon and does he have animosity toward you? And what is the source of that? And do you think you'll ever be able to forgive each other? - Definitely initially during the initial split, we definitely hated each other at the beginning, but it's definitely started to calm down.

Actually just prior to, you know, all this social media drama that's going on currently, he had reached out to me and that was literally like the first time that we have actually talked since the split happened. So we didn't talk to each other for, what is it now, like almost two years.

And that was the first time that, you know, we interacted again and overall, you know, he wasn't aggressive towards me. I wasn't aggressive towards him. We were cracking some jokes. So hopefully the animosity is going down. - There's this a godfather quote that wrote down, I recently rewatched it from the Don, from Don Corleone, Vito Corleone, "The strength of a family, like the strength of an army lies in its loyalty to each other." Is there some aspect of family that you miss?

Of the blood that kind of connects you, that you can count on? - Yeah, my parents, you know, they both raised us that, you know, like family is everything. You never, you know, betray your family or anything like that. So I definitely, you know, miss him from time to time.

- Okay, imagine you're like 40 years from now, sitting on a porch with a shotgun, drinking whiskey, looking over like all the land you've conquered. Looking back to this moment, is the reason you split up a bullshit reason? Or is it a good reason? From the perspective of the king who has now conquered the lands, have proven himself, have done everything.

- I think it was definitely like a justifiable reason for the team splitting. Like it just, with the way things were going, it just was not gonna work with, you know, all of us in the same room together. It started, you know, affecting training, people didn't feel comfortable and things.

So I definitely think that it was a justifiable reason to split. - The things that happened in the jungle. - Yeah. - To be told about in the book. Is it gonna be an audio book or is it just gonna be, who's gonna voice it? - Might be a play.

- A musical? - Yeah, a musical. - On Broadway. How's your singing voice? - Mine's not so good, but Nicky has a beautiful voice. - Does he? Of an angel? I bet. Okay. Speaking of the social media drama, I should mention that I've talked recently to Gordon a bunch.

I've talked to him about talking to you guys and he's had nothing but really nice things to say about you, Nicky Ryan. And he has had nothing but bad things. - What was some of the things? (laughing) - Well, let's just go to the social media first. (laughing) 'Cause the social media stuff that he said publicly is just like a warmup.

It's like a foreplay, I guess. So Gordon sent you, Nicky Ryan, flowers for Valentine's Day posting on Instagram, quote, "I've been fucking him "in every round and competition since we met in 2018. "The least I can do is buy him flowers." - We didn't get the flowers. (laughing) - Yeah, that was the question.

Did you get the flowers? You never got the flowers? - He sent it to the wrong address. - He did? - Yeah. - Where do you think he sent it? - It was close, but it was wrong. - Did you appreciate the romantic gesture? - I did, I was looking forward to the flowers and potentially chocolates in there.

But it was a bit of a letdown. - Can you describe your recent match against Gordon, the EBI match? - Okay, so EBI match on UFC Fight Pass was a 20 minute match. And immediately, match starts, I pull guard, and then I stand up, he pulls guard. And we have this kind of like back and forth where he's trying to dig for underhooks, trying to get on top of me, and he can't really find success.

And then in the midst of me trying to work my body lock pass, Gordon's able to underhook a leg and we end up in a leg entanglement. And then I'm able to transfer that leg entanglement to a 50/50 position, still in the leg entanglement. From that 50/50 position, I'm able to separate his feet and actually get a few pops.

And he actually said I broke his foot in that exchange. - With a toe hold. - With a toe hold, yep. And after that, we had a bit more, I was just working on top positions, trying to get my body lock, time runs out, and we go to overtime.

And overtime-- - Can you hold on a second? What does it mean to break a leg? I was very confused about, is this like a expression? Or what do you mean, which part breaks in a toe hold? - Okay, so in a toe hold, there's a few different grades of it.

Like you could get a few pops and have some walking issues. And people consider that a break. And then you could break it fully and have your foot be like a limp noodle. I think what goes to Achilles, what is it, front of the Achilles or something? - I mean, probably the ligaments.

I mean, it's funny, like a lot of people say they broke something, but like to me, you break bones, you tear ligaments. So I would imagine you probably had a grade three tear. - Grade three. - How hard do you think is it to, I always wondered that with like a straight foot lock, how hard is it to break the shin or like the actual bones versus to tear stuff?

- Depends how many steroids they're on. And obviously how much you're on. - You're one of the few guys that have actually broken bones in competition. - Yeah, have I? - Oh yeah, Vinny. - A couple, yeah. - Which bone did you break? - Spiral fracture of the fibula.

Very specific. - A lot of power. (laughing) - Is it like a twist thing? How did you break it? - Oh, it was a heel hook. Vinny always used to say heel hooks don't work, leg locks don't work. But unfortunately, age gets the best of all of us. I think he had some mileage on those ligaments.

- Yeah. - And the bone, I guess, yeah. - So it's actually what, the bone? - Yeah, his ankle disconnected from the tibia and the fibula, but the fibula definitely snapped pretty bad there. - That's fascinating. The dynamics of that. Okay, anyway, it went into overtime. What happened in overtime?

- Okay, I'll have an overtime. Let's see, trying to hang. Oh, okay, I go defense first. Whistle blows, I'm able to escape in like 17 seconds. And then immediately after I go on his back and he gets out in exactly 17 seconds. I'm like, shit, all right, I thought I had a good start.

And then he gets on my back right after that. And he's able to ride me out for pretty much the entire round. After that, I go back on his back. He escapes in maybe like a minute and some change. I think where I went wrong in the overtime is I should have been less adamant about chasing the submission and more aware of collecting time.

If I kind of diverted my attention towards acquiring time on the clock, it would have been more in my favor. But yeah, at the end of my overtime round, I'm able to lock up a renegade choke over the face, but there just wasn't enough time to fully finish. I got a few seconds of squeeze in there.

I didn't have enough time to adjust. - Do you think if you're on steroids, you would have finished the choke? - I mean, for sure, for sure. - That's what I thought too. - If you're on gear, you're changing the biology of your body. You're adjusting your DNA. For sure, if I adjust in my DNA, I mean, it's a finish, easy finish.

- So you're implying you're a natural athlete is what you say. - Oh, I'm definitely a natural athlete, yeah. Heavy implication. (laughing) - Okay, so for people who don't know, the EBI rules, it's an interesting rule structure where the overtime, you put yourself in the worst possible position, and the task is to escape, and then the other person gets the same thing.

What do you guys think about that rule set? - I like it just because, first of all, I don't like the idea of having to put somebody on my back, but I do like the definitive answer in the match. Like either you escaped in time or you got ridden out.

So the absolutely, like you get to define a winner, that's great. I'd much rather have that than a close decision and it kind of goes the other way. - What about you? - I mean, honestly, there's all the different rules. When I look at the rule sets, I just try to think of what rule set I could beat that individual in.

And I sort of gear myself towards that. That's really the strategy there. I think there's some guys that stall a lot, that you would love to have EBI overtime with at the end. They're stalling until they have to give us a good position. But then there's some guys that are so good in those positions, I'm like, "Oh, maybe we just do a regular match." - What are the rules in the streets?

- The streets? No time limit. - Yeah, that's one of it. There's also like concrete and cars and stuff. - Biting. - Biting, yeah. - Poking. Yeah, so you don't like that rule set? Are there some people you would prefer in the street as a rule set? - Me, probably not.

(laughing) I don't know though, EBI. I mean, it's tricky. It depends on the opponent, which rule set I'd wanna do. - Wow, what about you, Nicker? What do you think about the rule set of EBI? - Yes, I think EBI is very good from a spectator point of view.

People find it very entertaining to watch 'cause people wanna see submissions and you're putting the athletes in a position where you have the highest percentage submission in the sport, so obviously you're gonna get a lot of submissions. My issue with it is it is a rule set that allows somebody that's overall worse at jiu-jitsu to win a match.

A guy can go out there and just stall and just get completely dominated for the entirety of regulation and then he gets to start on the guy's back. So that's my one issue with it. - But also, I mean, it's interesting to see the best people in the world have to be put in a really bad position to see how good their escapes are, for example.

It's interesting, but it doesn't feel realistic. It's a fun thing to watch, but it doesn't feel like the real fight. It feels weird. - I'll claim it if I start an overtime on someone and finish him, I'll claim it, but if they submit me an overtime, I'm like, "Awesome, it's not a real submission." - It's good.

(laughing) The issue is people stalling to just win the overtime. So where you got this guy, his whole training camp is just not get subbed and win the overtime. It's a bit boring. - By the way, I have a rose behind you. Somebody gave me a Valentine's flower. So if you missed the one from Gordon, I got one for you.

- Well, I'd appreciate that. Thank you. (laughing) It's good to feel loved. - Yeah. All right. So what did you learn from that match? Like takeaways, technically speaking, like what do you need to work on? - Well, I learned that I am pretty good. (laughing) Yeah, pretty good. I got a few, I know exactly what my weakness is.

It's the leg lock department and I'm doing a lot to get better in that specific aspect. - Attack and defense? - I would say, yeah, attack, defense, re-attacks. Even if I wanted to offensively enter a leg, I could use some work there as well. But I feel like once I solidify, like if I become a black belt specifically in the leg lock department, I feel like I'd be unstoppable.

- If you, Nicky Rod, definitively beat Gordon Ryan, how would you do it? - Buggy choke. - Buggy choke. - Buggy choke? For the listener, I don't even know how to describe buggy choke. What's the definitive conclusion on that choke? Does it work? - It's a choke that you do when you're in a, what's the opposite of a dominant?

It's not submissive. In a non-dominant position of bottom of side control. - Yeah, just an embarrassing submission to get caught with, really. - Yeah, but does it work? - It works on certain people. (laughing) - For the listener, you go ask that word, Nicky Rod. It's embarrassing, but it's also, what, it's a way to frustrate the opponent.

- For sure, yeah, it's a new part of the sport. I feel like the Rotolo's brought it back into fashion and even if you don't get it, because it's one of those moves that's so embarrassing, at the first sign of danger, the top guy abandons ship and you can basically retain guard by attempting a very embarrassing submission.

- So the threat of embarrassment. - Yeah, yeah. - That's everybody. - People pull out very quick to avoid suffering the consequences. - I think some people underestimate how good of a submission it is. I mean, once you're locked in there, there's not too many defenses for a buggy choke.

- Is there an instructional on the way from you? - J-Rod actually, my little brother has one. - Oh yeah, for real? You actually legit have, oh, wow. That's awesome, I'll check it out. So I mean, you're making a joke out of it, but it is a real, there's a system to it.

- I mean, yeah, I don't know if we call it a system. (laughing) It's a good move. - I mean, you take an opponent that was just winning in a greatly dominant position, and then boom, in that same position, they're pretty much, they're losing. It's an interesting move. - What's the name of the, what's the name of it?

- It's called the Buggypedia, like J-Rodriguez. - Okay, the Buggypedia. I thought there'd be something like very Craig Jones-y about it. Okay, awesome. I know you don't wanna sort of reveal the secrets of what you're working on, but in general, what does it take to beat Gordon, I guess, is the question.

- It would have to be some kind of a choke. I think any joint lock or anything like that, he's just gonna let it break and stay in the match. So I don't even think he'd tap from a renegade choke. I think I would have to put him to sleep.

So putting him to sleep is how I would win. - So Gordon is somebody who really hates losing. - Yeah, he wouldn't even tap in the practice room. I remember I had a toehold a couple times in practice room, and he was just comfortable working there. I'm like, I'm not really putting much on it.

I think he just, maybe because of situations like that in practice, he kind of didn't respect my toehold's ability in the competition. - You've done that to me in the practice. - I have, yeah. Yeah, I gave you a little-- - Gave me a little pop, and then he let go.

(laughing) - And that was only 10% right there. (laughing) - Hey, don't get into math. (laughing) - Okay, is there some part of that you think is necessary to be a champion, is to like, this almost unwillingness in competition to tap? - I think there's definitely something to be said for people that are just like, you know, willing to go that extra mile or to take that damage to secure their victory.

- Is there a part of you that like, would hate to tap or hates to tap? - Yeah, I mean, all of me, I would hate that. (laughing) Yeah, the whole part of me. - Isn't there a John Legend song like that? All of you and all of me?

- Very romantic, yeah. - Yeah, we're sticking on that theme. Okay, I'm sorry. Oh, one of the things Gordon asked, I forget how he put it because I think there's a lot of words that would need to be censored involved, but he said, ask them how it feels to have a zero five record against me with four submissions combined.

- I mean, first of all, I wasn't sure he could count to five. - Yeah. - That's an impressive thing. - That's impressive. (laughing) - Oh, and five, I mean, I will say one thing, nobody beats me four times. (laughing) - I love you so much, Craig. - Lex, I did have a question.

I did have a question for you. (laughing) There was some controversy on your Twitter about a list of books. - Yeah. - And I was wondering why Gordon's book wasn't featured amongst that literature. - Well, it was only the first 30 books or like the first 20 books, and it would of course be in-- - Something interesting about Gordon, he's the first author that's written more books than he's read.

- Pretty good. (laughing) If you face him and beat him, like what's your take on what it takes to beat Gordon? I mean, you guys kind of joke and you go pretty hard recently on each other, but as a fan of jujitsu, I'm all in on this rivalry. It's just fun to watch.

- I mean, first of all, I don't think I go really hard with him. I think Gordon is, he's pretty sensitive. You know what I mean? He's looking for a large insult in a small insult. And for me, like Australians, we just attack each other all day, every day.

And for me, like if I see someone that takes himself very seriously, that's like blood in the water. That's funny to me. To me, if I can just gently provoke and get a strong reaction, that's hilarious. Like Aussies, we will just attack each other and the first person that gets upset, he kind of loses the exchange.

So I think that is very, very entertaining. - Like if you were to beat Gordon, would the mental game off the mat be part of it? - I think it would be a factor for sure. But I mean, I'm never gonna come out too crazy direct with him. You know, like I find that like if you get too upset on the line and you're going crazy, I find that I'd be embarrassed to do that myself.

Obviously everyone's different. Everyone has a different style, you know? But like, yeah, I think mental, the mental aspect would play a big factor. I mean, mainly, because if I were to beat him, I would send him a message every day until I died, just to gently remind him that I got the last one.

The last one is all that matters. We're not giving it to him. We're not giving it to him. - So like once you beat him, you're going to run for the rest of your life? - I mean, run, but look back. - Yeah, yeah, right. What message is it?

- A sidestep. - Ride your horse into the sunset, okay. - Oh, by the way, you've talked very lightly. You've talked shit very lightly against Alexander Volkanovsky's opponent, very lightly. Have you received death threats or how are you still alive? - Like Gordon, I would say people from Dagestan take a joke very well.

You know what I mean? - Do they really? - No. - Oh, like Gordon, oh, like, I'm sorry. I'm slow. (laughing) I went into aggressive mode in my head. - Now, honestly, Islam is pretty cool. I wanted to stir it up a bit, you know, 'cause like I felt like that was a massive fight and it probably should have had more attention than it was receiving.

So I wanted to just gently stir it up a bit. I feel like Sambo guys are in the same vein as catch wrestlers, very sensitive. You know, like obviously there's only three people in the world that do catch wrestling, Sambo, maybe 10 to 15. So I figured we could really provoke them with that sort of Jiu-Jitsu Sambo stuff.

Islam took the jokes very well. The Russian fans, not so much, are very serious. There's not many smiles in Russia, you know. They didn't take it as well. - I'm trying to suppress the anger, the rage is building up inside me slowly. So you guys mentioned steroids. - I like that you bring that up after we talk about Russia, for the record.

Smooth, smooth segue there. (laughing) - I cannot condone the statements said by the Aussie, but I would love to travel with you to Russia. - That would be a good time. You might get killed with me now. - No, I would be the first to turn to backstabbing. (laughing) - You're like, I got in there, get in.

- All right. Are most of the top grapplers on steroids? - I mean, it's hard to say. You know, some people look like shit and they're on steroids. Some people look excellent and they're not on steroids. It's so, so hard to tell. - That seems to be the general consensus that a lot of people are on steroids.

I'm always a little bit, I don't know. So, I'll be honest, I've never seen anyone take steroids. I've never taken steroids. I don't even know if that's the right term to use or like TRT, any of that. So, I'm very careful to not let my naivete lead me to take conclusions.

But I do feel a little bit weird about the witch hunt nature of it. Some people a little bit too eagerly claim that others are on steroids just because they're successful. But at the same time, it does seem that a lot of athletes will do whatever it takes to be successful.

- Yeah, I mean, if a sport doesn't test, you got to assume most people are gonna do it. And especially now, as more money comes into the sport, you got to assume more people are gonna do it, you know? - I generally like do AGCC and like does Jiu-Jitsu test?

- It's actually encouraged. - What's encouraged? (laughing) You get a pamphlet, okay. They don't test? There's no testing procedure? - They test to make sure we're on steroids 'cause obviously it's a big show for the UFC, Fight Pass in the future. (laughing) They don't want anyone coming in out of shape.

- Very nice. Do you think using steroids in that kind of context in sports is wrong? Like stepping away, if it's not illegal? - I mean, from my perspective-- - Do you think ethically speaking? - I like to assume everyone's on steroids so I don't have to feel bad about using steroids myself.

- Yeah. (laughing) Do you use all of the steroids? - I'm over 30, it's DRD, you know? That's the medical definition. (laughing) - That's the medical, okay. (laughing) I'd like to meet your doctor. - Therapeutic use, you know? - Therapeutic, right. Like how do you just feel about it?

- I mean, it is cheating for sure. Whether they test for it or not, I think it is cheating. Obviously some people are gonna say, "Oh, fuck, everyone's on it. "I should be able to get away with it. "It makes it even playing field." You know, but it kind of becomes Russian roulette 'cause it's like if one guy's taking a small amount and the other guy is taking a huge amount, he's gonna reap huge rewards in the short term, probably be dead pretty early, but die a champion, mind you.

You know what I mean? So it's like, I don't know what that one is. - Yeah, what do you think about that? Do you think it's worthy to take health risks just for the glory? - I think if you're 40 about to die looking at a cabinet of gold medals for wrestling other men, it's probably not gonna hit the same way on your death bed, you know?

- Sorry, in which direction? Like is that a good thing or not? - No, you're probably gonna feel like, "Oh fuck, I probably wasted a bit of health on that." - You think so? Isn't that like the glory of it? Like you said other men, yeah. Yeah, yeah. - Well, I mean, in my opinion, maybe wrestle a woman as well.

- What'd you do with Gabby on Valentine's Day? What did you take her? - We filmed some new stuff for OnlyFans. - For OnlyFans. - We never stopped working. (laughing) - Says the love affair is also a work affair, okay. - I don't know. There's something too that me like, like Olympic gold medalists accomplishing like the heights, like sacrificing everything, just everything.

The first 20, 30 years of your life for this silly little piece of metal. I think there's something beautiful to that. That's like conspires a lot, a lot of people. And that's like the height of the human condition in a way. - What if you survive? I'm just saying if you're in your deathbed early in life- - We all die.

All men die, Jones, but not all men truly live. - How many years are you willing to shave off for a gold medal? - That's a good question. How many? How many are you willing to shave off for a gold medal? What you're for a silver medal? - For a silver, I mean, for a silver medal, I'd shave a few off.

- I think two silvers makes a gold. (laughing) - It's worth five years? - Five to 10, maybe. Shave off the bad years, enhance the good ones. - Well, I mean, you've sacrificed. You guys sacrificed a lot, a lot of your life. You continue to sacrifice. You don't see it as sacrifice.

- It's fun. I think training's fun being a bit adamant about it, consistent, gives you, I mean, I think we have a great routine, great ritual. Definitely enjoy the process. - All right, well, do you guys know, this is bro science, or I'm talking bro scientists, but do you know how long steroids stay in your system?

- Forever? - Forever. - Oh, because it's like, once you do it, you own it. - Yeah. Just the knowledge. Yeah, all right. - I think it's different for each steroid, right? I think some of them last longer than others. It depends if it's a urine. - You would think I would do a little research before asking these questions.

Why do you think most athletes and coaches don't talk about steroids? Like, why is it such a secret? Why is it so embarrassing? - I think they probably talk about it like amongst the team and whatnot. Again, I mean, it's gonna be more shady if it's like your sport is tested or whatnot.

Or kind of in the wild west, in the grappling world. - Yeah, but why don't grapplers talk about it? Because it seems cheating. - I mean, it's kind of insinuated as a bit of cheating, even if it's not tested. I mean, still, you're taking a person that could, maybe has good jiu-jitsu, good mechanics, you're putting them on the leg, and they're something with a heel hook versus breaking your leg with a heel hook.

Something as subtle as that can make big differences. - All right, this is gonna make me sound dumb, but is it possible that steroids are not a huge help in grappling? - I think if you're bad at jiu-jitsu and you do steroids, you're gonna continue to be bad at jiu-jitsu.

But if you're great at gear, I'm sorry, if you're great at grappling, if you're great at grappling and then you also do gear, it's gonna enhance what you're already good at and make you much better. - But like how much is the enhancement, I guess is the question. - How much is muscle valued?

- Right, that's the question. - If you're doing gear and you're not changing weight that much, like maybe it helps you a little bit, but if you're gaining 50, 60 pounds of pure muscle and it's like, that's a huge enhancement, that's another human. - Does muscle, a small human, yeah.

Does muscle matter in jiu-jitsu? I guess this is the question. Is it possible that it gets in the way? - I'd say muscle matters, but technique matters more. - I also think that it'll help you develop technique as well because obviously testosterone helps with recovery rate. So if you're on gear, you're able to train a lot more.

Now, that being said, if you're not able to learn, obviously it's not gonna help in that aspect, but if you're somebody that knows how to learn and get good at jiu-jitsu and then you add gear on top of that, you're able to do significantly more sessions throughout the week.

- Okay, and by the way, gear is steroids? - Steroids, yeah. - Okay. I also think that you don't have to be as consistent in like your sleep and your food and stuff. If you're on gear, you have a little bit of leeway, but I mean, being consistent in your diet and your sleep definitely would help the process.

- Since you use most steroids of any athlete I've ever met, do you think steroids help jiu-jitsu? - I think obviously it helps recovery and your ability to train more, but I think some, I've seen some guys go on steroids and then suddenly they feel like the Incredible Hulk.

And now in the training room, they just start to rely more on strength than the techniques they had. And actually in some respect hinders them and makes them gas more in competition 'cause then they're using more of the muscle they never used to have. - So you've implied that you're a natural athlete.

- You said that skeptically. (laughing) Why are you skeptical? (laughing) - Is this something you do for social media to talk shit to Gordon, to imply that he's not a natural athlete? - Well, I only pretty much recently on social media, I had this rebuttal, you know, saying that Gordon's on gear.

And I only said that because after our match in our most recent match, the EBI rules match, he accused me of greasing, which is like lubing up so I'm slippery during our match. - And you did not. - I did not. I was checked multiple times before and after our grappling event.

And he still went out and accused me of this. So I was like, all right, as opposed to telling a lie, I'll just tell the truth about your steroid use, which it shouldn't be that big of a deal in retrospect 'cause he kind of admitted it and whatnot previously.

So it's, yeah, I just kind of felt like I had to rebuttal and I didn't do it immediately 'cause I was like, all right, I know I have this podcast planned so I'll wait to do it on my friend, Mark Bell's podcast, you know, be a little more, get a little bit more exposure on it.

And yeah, I knew he was gonna bite the bait but I didn't think he was gonna bite the bait that hard. I know he's a little stressed out about the comment, but you know. - And that was the origin of you guys going back and forth. - Well, it wasn't so much back and forth, it was just, I went forth and then he kept going back, back, back.

Like I remember one of my guys, the enemy, and they were like, Gordon's made like 68 Instagram stories and 67 of them were all about you. I was like, all right, well, I'm in his head for sure. - Got us a few followers, we appreciate that. - We did, we did get followers.

He even shouted out our B-team white belt program. So thank you. - Yeah. (laughing) - Okay, speaking of which, what's the B-team? How's it run? And why is it called the B-team? - Well, I mean, Craig- - Was the A-team taken? - I would have been. For me, B's for best.

- Okay, best. All right, what does B stand for for you? What does it represent? What is the ideal, like, you know, Miyamoto Musashi philosophical foundation of B-team? - Aim low and achieve. - Oh. If the bar is set low, you can't help but win, okay. - That's Nikki's philosophy with women as well.

Set the bar incredibly low, overachieve. - So what is the B-team? How do you guys run it? Like what, yeah, I mean, can you just talk about the school, how you found it? What is it, what's it like? - I mean, pretty much just a regular jujitsu gym. We started as sort of a pros only, purple belt and above team and we have me, Nikki Rod, Nikki Ryan, Ethan, Damian.

As coaches, am I missing someone? Oh, JB. - Your memory is with your old age. - Impeccable memory, yeah. And we got JB coming on to teach wipeouts. But just your stock standard jujitsu team. We focus on more, we lean heavily towards the professional athlete side of things. We have a lot of high level guys in there.

- Yeah. - Class structure, regular instruction, positional sparring, open rounds. But we sort of took a heavy slant on marketing side of things. We really try to blow up the YouTube channel. Obviously we sell a lot of clothing, merchandise and stuff. So yeah, we just sort of took a modern approach to a standard jujitsu gym.

'Cause I mean, jujitsu gyms are full of some of the most boring human beings on earth. So we try to highlight-- - Strong words, Greg Jones. Strong words. - Highlight the other side of things, keep it pretty light hearted. - That it can be fun. - Yeah, that jujitsu can be fun.

I guess that it can be cool too. It's not just full of steroided up autistic people. - Question from Reddit. Quote, "Need to hear some of the stories "about drop-ins that led to the making "of the gem of a video, "the do's and don'ts of training a B team." Any fun stories?

- Any ones that stand out? Do you guys remember any? - Police involved ever? - We had a guy come over to kick him out. He was stalking two of the members. Yeah, well, I mean, that's just crazy people. - I portray a pretty insane image online. And I guess I am that a lot of the time, but at training, try to keep it.

While training, around training, I'm insulting everyone, but while training, I try to keep it pretty serious. But obviously the image I portray lures in some of the crazier members. - I mean, like the thing is about the gym you guys run is really professional. It's like friendly. It's like the light hearted joking is there, obviously, the, you know, like shit talk and all that kind of stuff.

But I guess it's a pretty safe environment. But the public persona might attract some. - Some maniacs. I won't say which places I've trained at, but obviously some places you walk into the room and it's very, very serious. There's no smiles around. Obviously it's probably average training room in Russia, but no smiles, very serious environment.

You know what I mean? And I definitely don't like that. I don't wanna show up to training and be walking on eggshells, not know what the coach's mood's like that day. I wanna go in, have a good time, keep it light hearted. - What was in the video? What are the do's and don'ts?

'Cause like the address is public. Like anyone can show up. - Anyone can show up, yeah. What were the do's and don'ts? - Does anyone challenge you like to a fight? - Not yet, not yet. I mean, probably from other gyms in town, that's probably coming down the line, but do's and don'ts.

- I'm all in on that. I would be excited as a fan to just watch. - The love of the drama. - Not the drama, no, no, no. - Well, a little drama, a little drop of poison is good, but ultimately it's the best grapplers in the world kinda going at it, yeah.

Yeah, it's fun. 'Cause maybe I'm wrong, but I think there is an underlying deep camaraderie at the end of the day when you're like at the top of the world and you're like in the same town. - What could possibly go wrong? - It's like a shitty Western, but like an epic Western where like Clint Eastwood, like the good, the bad, and ugly.

Of course I love it. I'm here just eating popcorn like that. - Staring the pot. - I'm not staring the pot. I'm not staring the pot. - These questions are from Reddit. They're not from people. - That one for sure. - Yeah, I mean, what could possibly go wrong if you're the world's best grappler, hates you, and you're gently provoking him behind the scenes every day?

Well, I mean. - For sure, in Texas. - And you've stolen his brother, held him for ransom. - Kidnap. It is like a story of a shitty Western, I think. - You now allow white belts to train with you. What's it like to open it up to a bigger audience?

- We haven't opened it up yet, but it'll be interesting to see. I mean, I feel like your higher belts, they really understand what the training room is. You know what I mean? White belts early, they're trying to find their place in the gym, could be kind of awkward and stuff in that environment.

So I think obviously those white belts coming in will change the dynamic, but the white belts will have a separate white belt class obviously for them, 'cause given it's such a high level gym, it'd be tough for a beginner to be able to enter the more advanced classes. Well, obviously we're teaching more advanced techniques.

So yeah, we've separated a white belt program, I believe 6 p.m. on Friday. Yeah, maybe we'll have a Saturday one as well, but it'd be interesting to see how it goes. We're trying to do things different, you know, like trying to do your traditional, traditional gyms, obviously you're not gonna teach beginners wrestling at all.

We're trying to split it at least 33%, top game, bottom game and wrestling. So at least create more well-rounded athletes from day one. Whereas I feel like most traditional jiu-jitsu gyms might have no gi once a week, they don't touch wrestling, very IBJJF heavy techniques, but again, the sport's changing for sure.

- Just to take that on, how does a beginner get good at jiu-jitsu? Like given that you're starting this white belt, what's your philosophy on that? - Obviously buy all of my instructionals at full price, not during a sale, that would go a long way. - For those of you who are Russians, I'll send you instructions, or all the forms so you know how to steal it.

- Yeah, discount code. - I'll share, I bought 'em all, so I'll just send it to you for free. - I mean, we do have the Makachev 50 discount code, you know, offering discounts to help him out for the rematch. - I got the, nice. (laughing) The Makachev 50, well, I got a 100% discount for you if you need it, but that said, your instructional are both hilarious and brilliant, and it's one of the most respected instructionals.

- Oh, thank you. - Out there, with incredibly great names. - Yeah, it probably loses me sales, honestly, due to removing the seriousness of the text we cover. - Oh, 'cause they think it's gonna kinda suck, it's gonna be some funny gimmicky thing? - Or, I mean, some people don't even know if it's a real product.

(laughing) That's a big hurdle I have to overcome, is they see it and they're like, is that a real thing? That's a problem. But how does the White Belt get good? I think they just, I mean, they just have to show up. Just have to put in the effort, try to focus on using techniques and training rather than just fighting to the death, you know?

Although that is entertaining for us to watch, to watch White Belt fight to the death. - Yeah, but what are the techniques? You should focus on, like, what's the process? What does it mean to show up? Like, how much drilling, all that kind of stuff. If you were to optimize the first six months of a beginner, there's a lot of people who would listen to this and haven't tried, they've been curious.

I have a lot of friends who haven't, who are like, you're just too curious. They're constantly looking for an excuse to start. - I think it's just gotta be as simple as possible. You know, like, we shouldn't be teaching more advanced movements. I mean, obviously, in the grand scheme of things, there's highly advanced techniques, and then there's slightly advanced.

And I think trying to teach those guys real specific positions, even, like real specific types of guard, it's just beyond them. I think the best way to learn is through problem solving. And I think if you show the technique before they've discovered that problem, the learning is sort of held back.

So I like the idea of using kids' style games to show them a problem, and then use the techniques to fix the problems they've just discovered. I think that's the best way to learn. - Can you give an example of a problem to show them before you give them the techniques?

Like, what are we talking about? - All right, so say you wanted to teach posture in wrestling. You could create a game where one guy, the game might be get to a leg or get to two legs, control the leg, like super simple. But the rules, the constraint would be one guy is forced to keep an upright posture, and one guy is forced, well, not forced, but he's allowed to keep a bent at the hips, lower posture.

And obviously within that constraint, the guy with the better posture is going to have more success. He's gonna have a better posture to secure a leg or secure both legs. And therefore you've demonstrated the flaws of bad posture without having to explain it to them before they really tested that out.

- Okay, and then the result of that, you would realize that the bent over posture is better. - Yeah, you have that aha moment rather than just having it spoken to you. - You wrote, Craig, "I'm a big fan of constraint-based learning," I guess was what you're talking about.

"I love presenting beginners with a problem before the solution, like here, attempt to hold side control with no cues on how. Then I see how the guy got out and address issue by issue, cross face and hip control and so on." Okay, so what are some other examples like side control?

- Yeah, that would be excellent one, side control. Like teacher, like obviously we say, oh, you secure a cross face so they can't turn into you. Much easier to have them try to hold someone down without explaining what a cross face is and then use that technique to address the problem they've just encountered.

So I think you could do that with a lot of areas of jujitsu, like even more advanced, say 50/50, obviously a mirrored position where you both have access to each other's heels. Most people will stall out of that position and keep their feet crossed. I think a great constraint for both of them, you can't cross your feet.

Now you have to learn how to slip the heel hook when they expose it and how to safely re-attack of your own. So the constraint is you can't be too defensive in that position. And I think the rate of learning increases. - Why do you think the rate of learning increases?

Like why do you think that works? - Because you encounter more problems. Say in that situation, they're gonna get your heel a lot more in whatever period of time you allocate the drill for than if the legs are crossed. I don't think the hard part is splitting the legs to get to the submission.

I think the hard part's practicing control while they're trying to slip it at a later stage. And then obviously trying to slip your heel when you're in more danger also makes you more comfortable in that bad position if you're used to doing it with open legs. - Yeah, I think that probably that style of teaching forces people to focus on, 'cause it's so easy to fall into focusing on like memorizing a particular details of a technique without thinking like, why the hell does this even work?

And if you don't have that, you get to focus on like, from like as cliche as it sounds from first principles, like why the hell, how the hell do I get out of this? Like, why does this even work? Why does wrestling work? Why do you have a bent over posture?

You get those like, start to ask those kinds of questions, which is kind of interesting 'cause it's not obvious to me that bent over posture is the right posture for Jiu-Jitsu, right? I'm confused actually about that, I don't know. - About the correct posture? - Yeah, for Jiu-Jitsu. Like what's the right answer?

- I think bent over posture is still good for Jiu-Jitsu. - Even with the Judo and all of that. Like why are so many Jiu-Jitsu people like at a high level, the posture is higher up? - Well, I think wrestling posture is just a bit too low because it's not necessary, right?

If wrestlers are like low enough to the ground where your hands could touch the mat, but in Jiu-Jitsu, you know, it's kind of a mix between like wrestling and like Judo or Greco Roman wrestling. So I think it's just a bit more relaxed and it's bent over, but it's not upright.

And it's also not super low. - Bit more room for error too, because obviously the Jiu-Jitsu guy's shot isn't gonna be as athletic or as quick as a wrestler, especially a wrestler with shoes. - So it actually comes down to the fact that Jiu-Jitsu people just on average, even at the top level are not good at shooting.

- I think so, yeah. I think obviously, I mean, all the wrestlers in American stuff, they're starting super early, super young. You know what I mean? They've, by the time they get to the same age we are really in our sport and stuff, they've spent much longer doing the actual sport than the average Jiu-Jitsu guy.

- And then there's another level of wrestling, of course, with the Soviet block. That's just unachievable for your kind. - Who knew an Australian rugby? - Yeah. - A former rugby player. - Rugby, is that kind of like American football, but much less money? Is that what that is?

- Much less money, much tougher, I would say. But who knew that the cure to the Dagestani wrestling were the Aussies? - Were the Aussies? Okay, let's go there. (laughing) Your friend, your training partner, Alexander Volkanovsky, you helped him prepare for the Islam Makachev versus Volkanovsky fight. Who do you think, first of all, won that fight?

- That's a tricky one. - How is that the tricky question? - I will say when I was-- - All the shit talk you've been doing, how is that the tricky question? - When I was in the corner going into the fifth, I personally believed live that Volkanovsky probably needed a finish to take the victory.

- But you have to think that way, right, in general? Or are you like legitimately-- - It's a gray area 'cause the judging, who knows? Plus, I was like, "Wait, we're in Australia, "where's this bias?" You know, we've got some Australian judges here. I was really hoping we'd get a bit of bias on that.

Unfortunately not, hopefully they lose their jobs. But again, yeah, it was a close fight. I think sometimes you're blinded in the moment because again, everyone counted Volkanovsky out, the crowd's behind him, so everything he does is gonna get a huge cheer. Your bias towards the smaller guy, your bias towards the underdog, so you sort of, whatever the underdog does has a bigger impact in your mind.

And sometimes that can bias as the fight goes along. But yeah, super, super close fight. I would really love them to have a rematch, but obviously that's gonna hold up both divisions, so I don't know if they'll be able to do it. - Do you think they'll do a rematch soon?

I mean, that was an epic fight. I was listening to the fight companion during it. - They all thought Volkanovsky. - So they biased strongly the opinion? - Round two was the tricky one. Round two's the tricky one. - Anyway, I'd love to see that like run it back and do three actually.

'Cause there's an epic fight. What was the brief conversation you had with Islam Makhachev and his team? - I didn't know how he would take the joke 'cause obviously Khabib tried to flying eagle kick Dylan Danis in the face. So I wasn't sure how my humor would go. But I mean, Dylan must've said some worse things to me.

I was just playing around. I mean, you can't really take anything I say serious, come across like an idiot. But so when he was coming up to me afterwards, I was like, oh, I don't know what he's gonna say. And again, maybe he would have been more upset if he had lost, but he just received the judge's decision.

But he came up, I went to check his hand, he gave me a big hug and then pretended to throw me. And then I thought the interaction was over and then he circled back. So that's why it was so awkward. I was like, oh, he's coming back. He wants to say, he wants something else.

But he just said, why didn't you teach your boy how to escape the body triangle? - Oh, wow, interesting. What did you say to that? - I said, well, I mean, obviously you've got to learn how to finish a rear naked choke. - Is that what you said? - No, I didn't say that.

(both laughing) No, I was just laughing, I was laughing. But then they ushered us out. They were like, get out of here before the Aussie crowd attacks here. - What do you think about the body triangle position that we're in? It seemed like for the first time, it seems almost like Volk was dominant in that position, which is kind of weird.

- I mean, damage is meant to trump control, MMA judging. Damage is the number one factor. - Do you think the judges saw that? What did they score that as? - I think they all scored four towards Islam. - Yeah. - Three and five. Two of the judges scored towards Volk's.

One of the judges scored three for Islam. One of them, it was 49, 46 for one of them, and the other ones were 48, 47. I think that, again, the confusing round was round two. I don't think anyone scored the body triangle round for Volk's, which I wish they had.

- Volkanovsky was and is still arguably pound for pound greatest fighter in the world. How long have you known him? - I don't know the first, I met him before he was in the UFC, when I used to live in Melbourne. He came down to train at Absolute. - Yeah.

- And then we really connected on Ultimate Fighter. One of these guys he was gonna bring to Ultimate Fighter, Brad Riddell pulled out last second. So he called me when I was in Puerto Rico, and he's like, "Do you wanna coach on Tough for five weeks?" And like I said, Puerto Rico was apocalypse now.

I was like, "Yeah, get me out of here." So I jumped on that opportunity, and we were in Vegas five weeks together. 'Cause he was meant to fight Ortega, and then he got hit with COVID real bad. Got stuck in, I think he was in hospital for maybe one to two weeks.

And then before he flew back to Australia, they were like, "All right, maybe we just do you guys "as the Ultimate Fighter coaches." So I jumped on board with that. And that's really when we've become close. Obviously I was useful in the Ortega fight, helping him get out of submissions.

He fought then Korean zombie Max Holloway. I basically just held the bucket at that point in the corner, couple striking fights. And then again, yeah, we had to tackle the Islam problem. So I did spend five to six weeks down there preparing for that. - How did you tackle the Islam problem?

- How do I tackle? - Was you somebody who barely knows anything about wrestling, having to help- - Obviously it doesn't take much, especially wrestling. - Did the beard help or like what? In all seriousness, what were some of the key ideas that you worked on with Volkanovsky to prepare for it?

- I had the help of Frank Hickman. Hickman was down there too, one of the Hickman brothers wrestling coach. So we were sort of like problem solving. And I mean, basically we were confident in Volk's fence wrestling, his cage work. He's super good on the cage, super like under-respected in that position.

And we knew that if you're able to take the scrambles to the cage, he would be effective against Islam. 'Cause again, Islam is background in Sambo freestyle wrestling, but I mean, honestly, he's probably got the same experience on the cage as Volk. Obviously some of those wrestling skills will translate very well to the cage, but the cage is still somewhat of a gray area equalizer.

And Volk's again, incredible ability to stand up, incredible defense on the cage, which you saw we worked on strategies to get up and a ton of submission defense. Islam loves Kimuras, obviously re-enact from the back, arm bars, those are sort of, and arm triangles, dominant submissions. But again, the guys he submitted, not grapplers.

Apart from Charles Oliveira. And again, Charles Oliveira was basically knocked out at that point. So it was still impressive he submitted him. But again, I always told people this, they thought it was crazy. I was like, Charles Oliveira versus Islam in a grappling match. Oliveira is gonna win that match.

- Like submission grappling. - Submission grappling, yeah. So in a pure grappling skillset, I think Oliveira is a more dangerous grappler. So we didn't even come into it thinking Islam was this unstoppable boogeyman that people make him out to be. So we approached it from that, just focused on the techniques, ability to get back up, using turtle to get back up, using turtle to scoot to the cage to get back up and hand fighting from there, keeping it pretty safe.

But what makes Volk so special, I think is his gas tank. Gas tank and his willpower. He's just unbreakable. The Dagestani guys, Khabib, Islam, they are good at submissions, but they break guys mentally and they fatigue him. And then they take the submission that's offered. Oliveira is a guy that can jump on submissions and have an incredible technical ability to finish those submissions, whether you're fresh or you're tired.

And then you combine that with Volkanovski, who incredible willpower, never gets tired. You're never gonna break him. And as you saw, he only attempted one submission the whole fight. - Is that learned? Is that trained? Or are you just born with that mental toughness? - It's a good question.

I mean, he's like an anomaly. Like the entire fight camp, not nervous at all, supremely confident. The whole fight week, completely confident. He just has an attitude like, "Oh, everyone cast me out, we'll see." You know what I mean? Islam, he's like, "Let's see." - No doubt. - No doubt at all.

Super relaxed up until about five minutes before. And then he starts to amp himself up. He's like, "You are not taking this belt from my family." He gets into that sort of mindset. - He actually says that out loud? - You can't teach that survival. He didn't even take a fight.

- Have you guys ever been pushed to the limit like that or broken in a grappling match? - I'll do it in practice. I'll push myself to, I think I might pass out or die or something. As far as how tired you get. 'Cause in a match- - You try not to ever get close to that in a match.

- Yeah, you try to, 'cause it's important to understand where your exhaustion point is. But yeah, if you have to push to that limit in a match, you're probably doing something wrong. Like you see in matches where guys sprint the last minute, they try to win the match the last minute.

And it's like, you definitely had some mistakes leading up to that if you have to go balls to the wall. - Okay, but has there been ever times in competition, especially early on, 'cause you wrestled pretty hard and wrestling is pretty exhausting. Not wrestling, but wrestling style kind of thing, going against the best people in the world.

- Yeah, I mean, I definitely, again, I think in practice it's important to do that hard work that way competition is much easier. I think if you red line in practice and you really push to death's door, then once you're in competition and you're working with, you're being fresh in a comp, I mean, it's much better.

- Have you ever been to that thing where Dan Gable talks about always wanting to be to a place where you can't get off the mat? Like you work so hard in the training room, you can't get off the mat. I think he says he's failed at that in his career.

He was always able to at least crawl off the mat. - Yeah, I definitely never like actually died on the mat, but I felt like I was gonna die. - Sure, sure. What about you? Do you quit all the time? - I get a light cramp. I'm like, you know what, you got me, man.

Let's do this against him. - If I'm asking Craig for a role, he's in the bathroom somewhere. - Do you see the value of pushing yourself to that place where you're knocking on death's door? - Yeah, but within safety, 'cause obviously the most serious injuries occur when you're tired, over-training and stuff like that.

So I think like taking a page out of what those MMA fighters do, especially Vox with his training. Like he's not necessarily pushing crazy in each round, but he's doing extra conditioning, assault bike stuff, crazy workouts outside. He does do some crazy training workouts, but all safe. Very safe.

Like when he's redlining like that in the training room, it's a very controlled, safe setting. I think to do that in jiu-jitsu against some of these lunatics out there that are trying to kill you, especially when you have a name, can be dangerous. - So your approach to jiu-jitsu is don't warm up and don't try too hard.

- No, it's that. - For safety, no, for safety. - Yeah, longevity, you know. - And talk shit about Russians. I got it, I got it, I hear you. Oh, you mentioned cage work. What's interesting to you that you learned over all this time about cage work? What's interesting about the dynamics of that?

Are you talking about both like the control in the dominant position, but also getting up from the bottom while you're against the cage, all of that? - The added dimension of that cage, that wall being there changes a lot of stuff, right? So obviously in some ways, it's a much lower impact wrestling style because you can't be sprawled on.

You can shoot, the cage is gonna block their feet, you're gonna be able to chase down their hips. It's just a completely different fight. And again, because of Islam's judo skills, that upper body controls, you see he's able to use against the cage, like the inside trips, sort of the Uchimada style, Hara-Goshi throws.

So obviously those skills do translate, but yeah, I think the cage is a great equalizer for a lot of things like athleticism and stuff. It takes away a huge speed advantage aspect of the fight. - So he's really good at standing up. What is there, I assume he learned all of that from you and your instructional just stand up.

- I mean, we were so confident. I was like, you know what? Why don't we put this thing out a month before the fight? Maybe the illegal download hasn't made its way to Russia yet, but it was there for him. - Can you explain to me what's in the instructional just stand up?

Like what are the ideas? - What are you, I mean, the old school way to stand up, people talk about the technical get up, you know, the old Gracie, you put the hand, but I mean, that doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years. You know, if you look at everyone that gets up in MMA, they're using turtle to get up.

They're using wrestling to get up. You know what I mean? Which is a counter to what pure jujitsu says. They say, don't expose the back. Don't ever expose your back. I think jujitsu is a terrible way to get back to the feet because if you were to retain guarding a half guard or close guard, super hard positions to get up.

You're basically putting yourself in a leg tuck for wrestling. So I think you need to borrow from wrestling to learn how to get up in an MMA fight. So basically how to safely expose your own back while not allowing them to get hooks and use that to get back up, or at least not allow them to get two hooks.

- And that applies for MMA especially. - For MMA especially, because obviously striking is a factor, but if they are striking, they don't have locked hands around your body, means you are able to move. You are able to make an attempt to get back up. They have to choose between control, submission, or strikes.

- Post from Reddit, why does Craig Jones push so hard for a bottom is bad jujitsu? What is so bad about playing bottom guard such as half guard or delahee? Those are the two options. - No one likes a bottom. - Why would I want to get up? It's the question for all of you.

Is the bottom a bad place to be? I mean, the bottom's bad if you don't want that guy on top of you. That's the way I look at it. - That sounds like something a cowboy would say, but I don't know if that has much meaning. I think the point of jujitsu is both are dangerous, being on bottom and on top.

- I think the longer the match is, probably favorites the top guy more, just 'cause every movement the bottom guy makes is probably carrying your weight, carrying that gravity on top of you. So I think it's a bit more efficient passing from the top as opposed to sweeping from bottom.

- Bottom's reactive. Top is active. The top player decides how to engage, how to approach the guard. They can use angles, they can use footwork, they can throw people, throw the legs by. So it's an active position. Bottom's reactive. Reactive, you're going to get fatigued. - Yeah, I think it's very difficult to gas somebody out while playing guard, but I think it's very easy to gas somebody out when attempting to pass it.

- Well, you guys are talking about gassing people out, but is there more dangers from the bottom, like in terms of submissions and all that kind of stuff, or no? - I'm back and forth, 'cause I'm a top player, but I understand the value of being on bottom. When I do play guard, bottom, I feel like the submissions come much easier.

And when I'm on top, they come also pretty easy, but maybe I just take a different route. - Talking to two cowboys talking about you. (laughing) - Top on the straights, bottom in the shades. That's Nicky. - What was the hardest part of the training for the training camp for Volkanovski?

Like, you're just experiencing world-class MMA fighters training, and given your approach to jiu-jitsu of not trying too hard no matter what. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, from my perspective, there's a lot of pressure for that. You know, like, that's a lot of pressure for me to go in and think that I could possibly figure out a way to help this guy, address this guy that's basically never been beaten.

I think he got knocked out once, but basically not really even been put in bad positions. You know what I mean? So that's a lot of pressure on me, especially 'cause Volkanovski's such a great guy. Jiu-jitsu's different, you know? Like, you coach a guy who loses, he has time to tap, but in MMA, you could get severely hurt.

There's a lot more weight in what you need to do as a coach. You have a greater sense of responsibility to their health and wellbeing. You know, like, obviously I know Volk's kids, I know his wife, you know what I mean? They're putting faith in you to not just win the fight, but keep this man safe, you know?

So from my perspective, a hell of a lot more pressure coaching him as an MMA fighter. - So almost like the psychological aspect of doing the best you can for him. - Exactly, yep, yep. - What was the hardest about the actual training? Was it the technical aspect of trying to figure out the puzzle of Islam, or was it being a good training partner in figuring out how the grappling would work, basically playing your best impression of Makachev?

Were you trying to actually impersonate him? Like, not just visually, but like in style. - Yeah, definitely, definitely visually. - You're not as good looking, but go ahead. - Yeah, a little taller, but no. In terms of the training, yeah, I mean, Islam's known as incredibly strong guy, so obviously I'm heavier than Islam, so theoretically I should be able to replicate that strength difference.

And then in terms of grappling, targeting those submissions that Islam does, like focusing on those in the training room, focusing on the way he holds half guard, and really, in the grappling sense, trying to replicate him on the ground, and then, yeah, I wrestle with him on the wall a ton, trying to replicate, obviously to the best of my ability, a lot of the stuff he does on the wall.

Body lock heavy, inside trip, uchi matas, and just constantly putting the work on Vox, you know what I mean? Like constantly chaining attacks against him, really replicate that. - As he's trying to get up and escape and all that kind of stuff, so the submissions, like both judo and submissions, just attack and attacking.

- Exactly, and there's only so much you can do, really, 'cause obviously he's been, I think he's been fighting a long time, so it's like you're trying to polish what he already is good at. You can't just completely create entirely new game for him in the space of six weeks.

So you're trying to take what he's already effective at, add to it, and luckily a lot of the stuff he's already very good at was easy to add to for the fight. - Question from Reddit. I'm very curious why other MMA fighters don't employ high-profile grapplers from B-Team and New Wave to improve their grappling.

That's from this subreddit. By now it's clear that they are levels above almost everyone in MMA, simply because fighters there don't specialize in grappling, but it doesn't seem like fighters, even champions, get training partners from the most successful teams. Why is that the case? From your experience, why doesn't Kabir call you?

- You want now? - Nah. (laughing) Put in a good word for me. - Oh, I will. (laughing) - That's all right, he takes a joke pretty well. - Yeah. No, no, you'll be welcome with open arms. (laughing) - I think your average Jiu-Jitsu coach, MMA fighters have bad experience with Jiu-Jitsu guys.

Jiu-Jitsu doesn't have a massive place in MMA. Obviously rounds, stand-ups, it's hard to submit people. Your average Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt doesn't know anything about holding a guy down, doesn't know anything about how to stand up. So I think if you overly utilize that Jiu-Jitsu guy that hasn't had experience in more modern No Gi or training MMA fighters previously, it's gonna be a complete waste of time to them.

I think they're smart enough to realize that. - Do you have, and do you guys, do you have interest in MMA at all? Just not even like, well certainly just competing yourself, but like just understanding the puzzle of MMA. - Yeah, I mean, I've been a fan of mixed martial arts for a very long time before I trained Jiu-Jitsu.

Personally, I'd much rather coach than fight. But I mean, I'd fight somebody for a good check and I get to pick the opponent, have a proper camp. - Okay. (laughing) - I can think of a good opponent. - Which dude was that? All right. (laughing) Who do you think is the greatest MMA fighter of all time?

Craig, we can start with you. Just as a fan of the sport, as somebody who's been deep in it. - I mean, from my perspective, after that performance, I'm gonna say Volkanovsky because he was able to decisively outstrike Max Holloway, one of the greatest strikers in the sport. And he was able to hang with the wrestling of Islam Akhachev.

And in terms of Ortega, he was able to survive Ortega who has some of the most dangerous submissions in Jiu-Jitsu. So I think, in my opinion, technically he's the best. - So even though he technically lost, he still has a crown. - I believe so. Given the size difference, given he's moving up in weight, I think all those factors really.

- The underdog, everything, the pressure. - Did you think he would be able to hang in any of the wrestling exchanges with Islam? - No, no, no. I was really surprised. That's why my eyes, like, it's kind of funny, like winning at the end of the day, I feel like judges influence that.

Although I did think Australian judges would rob the other way, but I was assuming they kind of, somebody paid somebody and not enough maybe. But in general, I just thought he won sort of in the eyes of what martial arts stands for. Like sort of go into the fire and survive and thrive and finish the last round strong, which is kind of like spiritually is what a victory is.

So I wish he would kept going. Like- - Wumble around. - Yeah, exactly. That kind of thing. What about you? Who do you think, like, who are the fighters you admire? Like who do you think is the greatest of all time? - I think the fighter I paid most attention to was Jon Jones.

You know, he has a great ability just to mix the high level striking, high level grappling. Although his, you know, jujitsu by itself isn't, you know, probably isn't like, you know, super high level, but his ability to mix everything together, I would say he's the best. And he's a fellow, you know, heavier guy, heavyweight now.

So it's nice to see, you know, how those guys move at that weight. - And a fellow natural athlete. (laughing) See what I did there? (laughing) What about you, Nikki? - Yeah, if I had to pick a goat, I would probably have to say Khabib, just because he was undefeated and he had a very, you know, high finishing rate.

You know, very few of his fights actually went to a decision. So he just, overall, he dominated almost every single opponent he went against. - The dominance. I mean, we've been joking about it, but Craig, what do you think makes the Dagestani fighters so good? Like from this small region of the world, so much dominance has come.

- I mean, obviously the amount of freestyle wrestling champions from that region probably puts their wrestling above and beyond the best in all of MMA. And obviously a lot of, even in the Olympics, a lot of champions out of there, right? So I think that skillset combines with them adding effective pin controls on the ground and jiu-jitsu submissions.

But again, I think it's that hard training. Those guys like Khabib would maintain that pressure throughout the entire fight and break guys down. Their ability to fatigue guys to a breaking point, I think is something they do best. - I wonder what that is. Is that technique? What is that?

What is it about their upbringing? 'Cause it's just that part of the world. What were the Satya brothers with on the freestyle wrestling side to all the mixed martial arts people? Like it must be part of the culture also. They must be doing something. I don't think, I haven't seen a convincing explanation of why yet, of what's specific about their training, what's specific about their culture that creates that.

Okay, what do you think about like the flip side? Do you admire somebody like Conor McGregor who knows how to create a spectacle? You, Craig, who likes spectacles? - Spectacles, yeah. I mean, I really admired early Conor McGregor 'cause I found him absolutely hilarious. You know, like I felt like that was peak banter.

I feel like he just took the American world by storm. Aussies, British, Irish, Kiwis, I believe we have a way better level of banter and attacking each other. And it's almost too easy to pick on Americans to take themselves very seriously. I mean, arguably even other parts of the world too, the far East of Europe, you know?

- But that's the tricky thing with Conor. I think he was, I feel like you could have gotten in the same kind of trouble 'cause the Russians really took everything very seriously. They weren't joking around. - Yeah, that's the problem. It's like, it's a bit of, I mean, some things he definitely takes too far, you know, but I felt like early on he had the right balance where he wouldn't really cross the line, but he would do enough.

He just took it to another level, obviously later in his career. But I think early on, a bit of innocent banter. - He gets a lot of eyes on the sport though. He's probably by far the most popular combat athlete of all time because of that. I feel like you have to cross the line.

I don't think enough people appreciate the values he's brought by crossing the line. - He's making a sacrifice crossing the line. That's gonna affect him for the rest of his life, you know? - I see, I don't think so. I think he can always walk back. 'Cause I think unlike, people might disagree with this.

I, well, yeah, I thought he always radiated a respect for the opponent afterwards and underneath it. It felt like the same way you do. When I hear you shit talking, I don't see a person who really means it. I see a person who's having fun with it. I always saw Conor McGregor the same way.

I don't know. But people took it extremely seriously. But I saw the respect, the common respect the martial artists have for each other that felt like it was always there. - If you don't like that individual, you're gonna perceive what they say more negatively than if you obviously were.

So I feel like if you like someone, you're gonna never think they really crossed the line. - That's true. So you're saying I like you. That's why I'm perceiving you. You're bullshit in a positive light. Are there people that hate you? - I mean, some of the family members at this table.

(all laughing) - People that really get to know you all hate you. - The fans love me, the friends hate me. - It's a good place to be. Keep your enemies close. All right. What do you think is the most important muscle for Jiu-Jitsu, is it biceps? - I think a strong back.

I think back one, core second, and then biceps. - Okay, biceps. Cool. Do you legitimately think weightlifting helps Jiu-Jitsu? It's kind of the discussion under steroids. It's like the muscle mass and strength and power and explosiveness, all of that. - I think sometimes when we're at that upper echelon of competition, there's only, there's like little minute battles that you have to win.

And if you're relatively close in technique, then a lot of times a stronger opponent pulls it out. - But it could be also just the limitation, right? You hold position too long. What about for hobbyists? Do you recommend weightlifting? Like when you see people in the gym? - I always recommend weightlifting.

I almost see muscle as the body's armor, right? The more armor you have, the more damage you can kind of take and maybe recovery is a little bit better. And I've always seen weightlifting as a means to stick to my routine. Like if there's no point in lifting if you're not eating right and you're not sleeping right.

So if you kind of put it all together, then it's beneficial. - What about you guys? Do you go to the gym? - I go to the gym, yeah. Believe it or not. - Do you go to the hotel gym to use an elliptical and that butt machine? - Yeah, I focus on the glutes heavily.

- All right. (laughs) What about the injury prevention and so on? How do you train to minimize the risk of injury? You guys have all been pretty beat up. You've gotten a major injury with the ACL. - Yeah. - So how do you train to minimize injury? - Probably not the right guy to ask, eh?

- Yeah. (laughs) - Actually, can you talk through your injury? Like what happened? - Yeah, so about one week prior to this last ADCC, I was wrestling with this guy named Kenta who was also competing. And I went to go lift him from like a rear body lock and he hooked the outside of my leg and we just felt something pop.

He felt a shift with his leg. And when it first happened, it hurt for like the first 30 seconds. And I honestly debated. I was like, maybe it was just some freak thing. I was like, I literally thought about continuing the session. Then the next day I woke up and it was like super sore.

I was limping around, couldn't do a full squat. So it pretty much killed all of my training for the entire week leading up to the event. So I couldn't train or anything. Messed up the cut. Obviously there's added nerves with that too, you know, when you're not in the gym every day leading up to the competition.

I went out there. I wasn't really able to pull guard 'cause I couldn't get full heel to butt connection, which is inevitable with playing guard. And I was very hesitant to shoot as well. So I came out with the idea of just trying to use hand fighting to tire my first opponent out.

And then mainly look to get to under hooks or over hooks and do mostly upper body wrestling. In the beginning of the match, I successfully got to an under hook. I got to a rear body lock. He tried to roll and I ended up in top position in side control, but it was during the no points period.

And then as the match went on, I gassed out and eventually he ended up taking me down and then scoring with two hooks on the back. - So what's the injury? - Yeah, so I got an MRI actually after the event. I didn't know- - So you waited, wait, wait, you waited until after the event?

- Yeah, I waited until after- - 'Cause like knowledge or ignorance is bliss? - Yeah, exactly. I was like, honestly, I don't even wanna know what's wrong. I was like, I'd just go out there, compete. You know, I knew it was like the biggest event to date and I really wanted to do it.

- Did you ever think about not doing it? - It definitely was a thought in my head, especially that the day after, you know, it's always the worst day whenever you have like a serious injuries the day after. And I was like, man, I really can't do a full squat.

I was like, I don't even know how I'm gonna be able to do this. It got a bit better over as the week went on, but I was like, man, I have to go out there and compete. I was like, it'll always be in the back of my mind.

Like, what if, if I ended up pulling out? - What did you think about this whole? - I thought it was just being a pussy. - Yeah. (laughing) Just slap him around, just yell at him. - I don't think we pressured you. We just say you make your own decision, right?

We're just like, yeah. - Is that a tricky thing to do? Like with a heavily, like a serious injury like this? - We don't know. - Yeah, well, we didn't know. That was the thing we didn't know. Honestly, initially I thought it was, I tore my lateral meniscus, but that ended up not being the case.

It ended up being a full ACL tear. I was actually super surprised when I got the MRI results. So yeah, we didn't know how bad it actually was. - What do you think about that situation? - I think Nicky's a tough kid. And I mean, when you're so close to that competition, you know, there's not many, you don't get many opportunities like that to compete in front of, you know, 15,000 people.

It's like, you know, props to you for pushing through it and getting it. And man, he had a close match with one of the best grapplers in his weight class. And it's like, you know, a few adjustments here and there. And especially, you know, if he was able to train previously leading up to that match, I think Nicky pulls it out.

- So some of the things you mentioned is nerves. So there's extra nerves just because you're underprepared. - Yeah, I mean, you know. - Feeling underprepared. - You want to go into a competition with, you know, the confidence. I did everything that I could leading up to this event.

I trained as much as I could. And then when an injury prevents that, you start to doubt yourself more. - How do you guys think about injury? How do you train, you know, training with the best in the world, training to be the best in the world and avoiding injury?

'Cause you've got, you tore your bicep. - Yeah, I tore a bicep. - Doing curls or? - Dude, honestly, I was bodybuilding, you know, for like seven years. And no lie, I did, I trained biceps like most days, like almost every day in those seven years. Pretty much I injured myself.

- That's so Jersey, man. - Anything else or just the biceps? - Just, I mean, no. (laughing) Yeah, I injured the bicep. Pretty much the day before a wrestling practice, I had like a killer arm day. And by arm day, I just mean training biceps. (laughing) Very rigorously getting a sick pump.

And I go to wrestling practice the next day, you know, pretty late, I should have been there. I didn't get a proper warmup in. And the first thing I do is I shake hands and I go to shoot a single leg and boom, I just blew my arm out the first movement I did.

So just not being warmed up properly, in addition to, you know, having a very vigorous arm day a few hours prior. - You hear that about warmup? So what are some lessons about avoiding injury? Training at the- - I would say number one is warming up properly. Making sure your body's hot before you do hot stuff.

- Okay. And what does warmup look like for you? Is it jujitsu or non-jujitsu stuff? - Yeah, just for a warmup in general, I'll do something like a, if I'm talking competition, something like a jog walk back and forth a few times, then a sprint jog a few times to get that heart rate, you know, up and down.

And then I'll grab a partner. I actually just filmed a DVD, or instructional specifically on the pre-match ritual. In addition to that, I'll, you know, grab a partner. I'll drill some movements. Typically I'll drill some bad things. Like I'll start from bottom, bottom out, bottom side control, work out from there.

And in pretty much like 20 minutes in, I'm hot and I'm ready to go for rounds. - Well, what about you, Greg? So what's the way to avoid injury? What's the worst injury you've had? - What's the worst injury? I don't even know. I'm pretty good, pretty healthy. - Whenever you quit practice, I'm gonna have some mental.

(laughing) Has your heart ever been broken? - Oh, many times, many times. But there's a thing I notice. People that spend the most time warming up are often the most injured. It's a strong correlation. (laughing) - All right, you can't argue with science. - I remember training with Oliver Tyser, Oliver Tyser would have a 60 minute warmup.

Surprise, surprise, always injured. Very common. I find that very common in the training room. Now I think people, it's how they train. Like if you, like me, first sign of discomfort, back pedal, you know, push through that stuff. Go too hard, go when you're too tired, you know what I mean?

Get too emotional in the role. I feel like those are the times that I've been hurt where I just like, oh, I can't let this guy get me. When I have that attitude, I believe it's how you train and sort of, obviously. - What does this come from? Like positionally too?

Like, 'cause you're training against some killers. I mean, you're training with him and going probably pretty hard. - If Frank gets a little tired, he's like, yeah, I'm good for today. - Once a month with Nicky, that's it. - And then you quit like 30 seconds in. - Yeah, you know, you gotta be safe.

- I like it. What about you? What have you learned from the ACL, Taryn? - Through rehab, yeah. Yeah, rehab definitely would help. - Oh, so you haven't been like- - I didn't get surgery. I didn't do, essentially, any rehab. I just have no ACL in my left leg.

- So what's it like having no- - The surgeon goes, you've got two options, surgery, rehab only. Nicky goes, I'll do nothing. - Definitely should pick up on the rehab. - What's rehab for that look like? Like twice a day of doing some weird- like bands or something. - It's good he's learned some valuable lessons about taking care of his body.

- What's it like just training with no ACL? - So at the beginning, it was definitely a little iffy. I would have an occasional buckle. Like I'd just be wrestling with somebody and go to step back and it buckled backwards a bit. But honestly, now, I haven't had a single buckle instance in a while.

It feels 100% normal when I train. It feels better than my other knee, to be honest. Like I had my meniscus taken out in my right leg and that one gets sore more often than the no ACL leg. - Okay, all right. So putting that aside, is there wisdom you've learned from that experience?

- Yeah, definitely should be doing rehab and prehab. I think that, especially if you're a hobbyist or a professional athlete, you should be lifting, whether you're rehabbing an injury or just for injury prevention. - So I'm actually closer to, correct, 'cause I've trained my whole life, like pretty hard.

Obviously just a hobbyist, but like twice a day, did judo, wrestling, all that. Never broke anything, never injured. Kind of like similar philosophy, except like last year, I guess a year and a half ago, I got a tiny like groin pull injury and it still hasn't healed. And I've been using your approach of not giving a shit.

- Yeah. - And like, surely this is gonna heal. It'll be fine, but it hasn't. But of course, if I was like an actual athlete, I would like probably still train through it and just fuck it, figure it out. But when you have other stuff going on, you just kind of wait it out.

- Yeah. - But no, I think probably rehab, especially as you get older, you have to do that kind of stuff. - I think it's important for people to, you know, determine whether what they're going through is an injury or they're just hurt a little bit. 'Cause injury, you know, for sure, take time, rehab it and get better.

But a lot of people like they'll stub a toe or something, like you're out for a few weeks, you know, so. - Well, that's the problem with the injury I have. It feels like a stubbed toe. So I was like, "Eh, I'll just wait a couple of days. "It'll be fine." And then a couple of days later, it's not fine.

And you wait, and then I never got an MRI, never got any of that. It's like, I'm sure I'll be fine. Yeah, so it's hard to know sometimes. It's hard to know. I feel like a lot of people will just not check it out and be fine. 'Cause there's several failure cases.

There is a failure case of where everything is a stubbed toe. You're like, "Fuck it." Like you're bleeding everywhere. Yeah, it's fine, whatever. So you have to be careful. A lot of people can fall into that too. I think I'm in that category. Go to the doctor. Why do you go to the doctor?

- Your best approach is typically wait until something else gets hurt so that you'll forget about the grain. - Yeah, exactly. That's what I was hoping. I was hoping to get hurt. Waiting for the broken heart, maybe. - Okay, that was very helpful. Oh, you mentioned you're doing a whole thing on the pre-match ritual.

Can you kind of preview what's involved in your pre-match ritual? - It's pretty big in the wrestling culture and the fighting culture, like kind of what to do before your competition. But I think a few people are just kind of missing out exactly what to do. So I break it down for them.

I break it down to people like four weeks in advance, how you should prep your training and your nutrition and your sleep for competition. In addition to that, I break it down even to a smaller scale of how early you should get to the event, when you should be visualizing your competition, what to do 30 minutes before, 20 minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes, and the kind of mentality you should have throughout those times before you actually step onto the mat.

- When are you visualizing? How much are you visualizing? When you say competition, you're talking about the tournament or the actual people you might be competing against? - A little bit of both. I'll spend time just visualizing the crowd. Like if it's going to be an arena with 15,000 people, I'll spend time in practice and whatnot, like putting myself inside that arena and visualizing stepping on the mat and hearing the crowd scream and whatnot.

That way, when competition time comes, it's kind of the same deal. I'm accustomed to it. In addition, when I get to the arena, I'll step on the mat. I'll kind of look at everything. I'll expose my senses to what it's going to be. And then I'll kind of shut everything off.

Like some people, you know, scroll through their phone and can treat it like normal, have this normal conversations. For me, I like to limit my sensory input, my sensory intake before I go out and compete. I just feel like sometimes, I feel like sometimes we only have so many decisions you can make in a day.

And I want all of my best decisions to be made when it matters, when it counts. - What about you? What's, do you limit your sensory input? - On game day? Honestly, no routine, nothing, eh? I don't know, yeah, I don't do anything. I'm just like-- - This guy's a double silver.

- We're both double silver. (laughing) - You should get it, you should buy his instructional. It might help you. - I'll get another silver. (laughing) No, honestly, nothing, hey, I just try to relax, treat it like it's before training. Have a-- - Try visualizations or no? - No, no visualizations.

- So the opposite of visualization, you just avoid it. - Yeah, I don't even think about it. I'm just like, yeah, we'll have a good time. Try to appreciate it, that I can do it. - By the way, when you visualize, are you visualizing tough positions or you visualize winning mostly?

- Definitely visualize winning. I visualize how I can get, how I'm going to get to my most dominant positions. 'Cause in comp, I want to do what I'm best at. And I'm also see, I see my opponent in his best positions and how I'm going to escape those if necessary.

But most of the time, I'm just visualizing exactly what I'm going to do in that match. And I go out there and do it. - Okay, so when your teammate, Craig, is another world-class athlete, has a fundamentally different philosophy than you, do you visualize being frustrated at him? - No, not frustrated, but I'll definitely come into practice with solutions to problems that Craig gives me.

If Craig's catching me at something or giving me issues, I'll go home, I'll watch a match that he lost for motivation and I'll come back and I'll put it on. (laughing) - Just DM him like a highlight reel of him losing. - Yup. (laughing) - What about you? Does it affect you that you're a bit of an outlier?

- Usually before I compete, right before I go out there, I go, why am I doing this? Do I still need to do this? And I think, hopefully it doesn't embarrass myself, affects my instructional sales. That's the last thought. But I don't even put too much thought into the whole competing thing.

I'm just like, you know what, train hard, hopefully have a good time out there. - What about the motivation aspect? Like that voice that says, why am I doing this? That voice can break a lot of people. Like in the weight cut, it can break a lot of people.

Like why am I doing this stupid, silly sport? Like you said, a bunch of dudes just rolling around, like what's the point? - I'll call someone with a nine to five job and I'll be like, yeah, that's why I'm doing this. Avoid that. (laughing) - Sell those DVDs, man.

- Yeah, I didn't get too deep on competing. - Yeah. - We're so polar opposite. It's like almost uncomfortable to be around you. - Obviously, one of us is a clean athlete. (laughing) - You should do a DVD on that. What about you in terms of preparing for competition, Mickey?

The day before, the day of, are there rituals that you follow? - Honestly, like the few days leading up to it, it's different for me every time. Like sometimes I'll warm up before I compete, sometimes I won't, sometimes I'll fast, sometimes I'll eat. So it literally is just completely random.

I don't follow any specific thing. But in the training room leading up to the competition, I'll definitely, like Nicky Rod visualized, that I'm walking out onto the competition mats. I'll pick somebody that's a similar body type to the person that I'm competing against. And then we'll start out with some distance between us.

We'll come out, smack hands, and act like everything's a real competition. I'll even sometimes have corners that will yell out times and things like that, just to replicate it as much as possible. - That's funny, because I've talked to a lot of Olympic gold medalists. They used to do a podcast with like athletes, and they all sound like Nicky Rod.

(laughing) The two of you are outliers. I don't know, sometimes I'll do this, sometimes. So anyway, but that's also Jiu-Jitsu culture, I think. Maybe the chaos of not taking things too serious is actually really, really helpful. Sometimes the pressure of taking everything way too seriously can break you. - I mean, I just don't think it's that big a sport, really.

You know, like- - I think if I compete every day in practice, it just makes competition much easier. So I just put the pressure on there. - On the competition, yeah, yeah. On the, sorry, on the training, on the competing and the training. I don't know, Olympic sports aren't that big either, financially.

And people take it extremely, extremely seriously. Like you don't really get that much money from Judo. - I mean, I just don't take Jiu-Jitsu that seriously, 'cause like I was just partying and having a good time until 21. And then I was like, "Oh, fuck, do I get a job?

Or do I pursue professional sports?" And I feel like if I can, made a career in Jiu-Jitsu with a decision at that point. - And now you just stumbled your way somehow into like being at the top of the world. - Yeah, that's what I feel like. I just walked into it.

I feel like I couldn't just do that in wrestling, boxing. I couldn't do that in other sports. - What was the toughest match you've ever had that pushed you mentally, physically, technically? This doesn't have to be the best person you face, but was there like a moment in your career that was like really defining for you?

- I mean, I would say like the toughest mentally was just this last ADCC. I just had a big injury leading into it that kind of screwed the whole camp and weight cutting everything up. So yeah, I would say the last ADCC. - Are you proud of your performance there?

Like you stepped on the mat that you pushed through all of it? - Like I said, I'm a very competitive person and I hate losing. So definitely not, yeah. - You had a collapse lung. (laughing) - Can we elaborate on this? - He was so physically exhausted afterwards, couldn't breathe, we had to get medical intervention.

He thought he had a collapse lung. - So he goes- - I was the most tired that I've ever been in my life in that match. I actually popped a blood vessel in my eye. I was trying so hard. - He comes out, he walks off the ADCC mat backstage and I'm like, I'm kind of getting warmed up for my match.

And Nikki run and comes, he walks over, huffing and puffing. His mom's right next to me, he looks at her, he was like, I think I need help. I think I got a lung collapse. (laughing) - That's not true. - No, that's not true? - My mom's the one that called for medical help.

I was just laying on the warmup mat, fucking dying. (laughing) - Well, we're happy you're fine. (laughing) - You laid it all on the line. What about you, Craig? - Defining all toughest matches? I mean, they're all pretty tough. I don't know, I can't really pinpoint one. I mean, probably the most annoying one was obviously the one where I had Gordon Arnby, I was like, tap bro.

And he wouldn't tap, so I let him out. (laughing) Mentally, I was like, I shouldn't have done that. - Do you ever have a thing in your brain where it says, should I shit talk now or not? And you say, no, I'm gonna be respectful? - I just can't be serious about some of these things.

I don't know, it's just silly. - All of it, the whole thing. What about you, Nicky Man? - Dude, honestly, most of my toughest matches are in the training room, right? 'Cause I started with these guys, I started training under them, started training at DDS when I didn't have any knowledge.

I knew wrestling, I knew a knee cut in jujitsu, but I started training with them when I knew almost no jujitsu and then I had to really work my way up. So definitely in the training room, being like having one of these guys on my back or there's a stretch of a few weeks or months when COVID first hit and it was just like four of the best grapplers in the world and we just did drilling and live rounds with these four guys and it was hard, it was very hard.

Every round, doing six rounds, seven days a week with the best grapplers in the world and it's like you get no break and you're forced to learn on the go. So I think for me in the training room, that was definitely my toughest matches and that's where I built those mental calluses.

- There was a period where I drilled with Nicky Rod, probably what, nine months, 12 months? And typically speaking, like I said, no warmups, the first round we usually take it pretty easy. First round you start in mount. The whole room, the rest of the training room, they take mount very lightly.

Me and Nicky Rod would be fighting to the death every day. I felt like we did an extra round every day. It was very grueling. - I'm very mean when I'm in the midst of drilling or live, we would drill wrestling quite a bit, like stand up and in the drilling, I just wouldn't let Craig take me down.

We're not going live, we're just drilling, but I just wouldn't let him put me on the floor. So things like that. (laughing) - I knew it would escalate. - Yeah. - So you mentioned mount, so you do positional training. So would that be the hardest versus live training, open, starting from guard?

- I would say mount and turtle definitely, definitely made me very tough. 'Cause you spend all this effort getting off of bottom out and then you got to get on top of a guy. And at the time I'm not that good at holding guys down. So they escape quick and I'm like, fuck, I just tried to hold them down.

Got to go back down. Same thing with a turtle. It's like you start bottom turtle, you're trying to explode, get out, get away. And then, you know, you switch and this guy gets up pretty quick and you're like, damn, I got to go right back down. It was that constant circle, man.

It's very tough, but definitely, you know, build some character on the mat. - What do you think is the value of positional training in general in Jiu-Jitsu? Actually, this one, just interacting with you guys, it's not commonly done in just like regular Jiu-Jitsu gyms. What do you see? 'Cause probably it's not commonly done 'cause most of the experience is just frustrating.

Like if you're evenly matched, you're basically frustrated the whole time, if you're doing it right. - It's a psychological battle that happens in like the mount and turtle rounds. It's like, you know, 'cause you, maybe you get close to subbing a guy or maybe you do sub him. You know, when you start on turtle and you're on their back, you finish them and then you get this high point and then immediately you got to go back down to defensive posture.

It's very like, it's emotionally like up and down. So it's hard to deal with. - Super important if you're one of the better people in the gym, because it just puts you in positions you don't find yourself in, in regular training. So I think like a lot of, if you're a big fish in a small pond and you don't do positional sparring, you're probably going to get exposed in competition.

You might even look silly in those positions. So you really have to force yourself to do it, despite the fact that you're giving someone worse than you a position where they might catch you. So you have to sort of put the ego aside. - Yeah, that's one of the things when I was training regularly, of course, training with you guys, it's like trivial, but I didn't work on putting myself in bad positions when you get better and you regret it.

'Cause the big negative thing it has, consequence it has on competition is you don't take as many risks 'cause you're kind of afraid for your back to get taken, all that kind of stuff. - That was me before I went to DDS. I remember I showed up there in that old position.

I was like, fuck this. You better earn this position. - Yeah, exactly. - I didn't really have escapes. That was a learning curve for me, for sure. - Do you see the value in positional training or is it just the source of tremendous frustration? - Yeah, I definitely think it plays a big part in your confidence when you step out onto the competition mats, being confident that even if you get put in the worst possible situations, you know what to do and know how to work out of them.

- So I had a long argument with Hydra Gracie when he visited and he thinks mount is the most dominant position, even Nogi versus Beck. Is there a case to be made for that or no? - I think all of your opponent's utensils, their tools are in front of them.

So if you're on mount, there's a few ways to get out of mount. I think if you're on somebody's back, I'd personally much rather be on somebody's back than-- - Flattened out. I'd rather have someone's back and then flattened out. - Boots in, flattened out, yeah. - Boots in, flattened out.

So not even body triangle, but just flattened. - Just completely flat, almost like the position in MMA where you see guys get finished 'cause they can't get out. I think that position is probably the hardest position to escape. - Can you see what Hydra's talking about with mount or is he just that good at mount, like he says that?

- Might mean the gi, cross collar, I don't know. Or did he mean-- - He says controlling wise, he just believes that you can complete, that there's, he actually thinks there's more ways to get out from the back than there is from the mount. - Prior to-- - Getting up, including physically.

- Prior to the kipping escape, I would probably agree with him, but that kipping escape's so difficult to manage. It's the funny looking escape where your legs are wiggling. People have a lot of trouble. It's super hard to learn how to do, but then once you learn how to do it, the effectiveness is just huge.

- Yeah, it's a weird one. When did that come to be a thing? Is that pretty recent? - I mean, I saw DDS guys using it first, I think. - Yeah, yeah. - Who's the first guy to discover something like that? This seems like a ridiculous thing to discover.

- Yeah, like what if I just wiggle? (all laughing) - I thought it was a joke at first. I was like, "You guys really doing this?" Yeah, all right. (all laughing) - I remember somebody showing me a technique where if you just walk your hand on a mat or something like that.

- Like an arm triangle or something? - Yeah, yeah. - You're trying to walk the arm. - On the arm high? - And it's just a funny discovery as opposed to trying to shove it in, just walk it. - I like doing that to people, but with things that aren't true.

(Jay laughs) You know what I mean? I'll just tell them this is a technique and watch them try to work out if I'm being serious or not. - Yeah, that's what you do when you achieve guru status. They'll just listen to you like you're Steven Seagal. - See what they'll believe.

(Jay laughs) - Speaking of which, how do you balance, you have to travel all across the world, how do you balance that with running a school or being a world-class Jiu-Jitsu athlete? - I mean, the secrets of travel for me are two drugs, Xanax and modafinil. That's how we time adjust and we hit the ground running.

- What does modafinil do? Xanax puts you to sleep. - Yeah, I mean, I have narcolepsy, so it's a narcolepsy medication. (all laughing) - How does that work with the steroids? - I mean, they work well together, you know? - Yeah, nice. - Focus and physical recovery. But in terms of traveling and training stuff, I mean, we're lucky 'cause we got so many high-level guys, so we can travel and they're still in good hands.

I mean, it would be a problem if me, Nicky Rod and Nicky Ryan left and the gym had Ethan, that would be a problem. But we gotta make sure it's not just him there. - Although everyone says they're happy when you're gone, so that's the moment I heard. - Happy when I'm gone, but they do miss me.

- Yeah. - For sure, until I get back. (all laughing) - All right, what about you? Just like balancing it, do you try to stay completely focused on competing? Like for some of the big matches you have coming up, are you able to kind of diversify? - Well, I like to, yeah, diversify my training to where if I don't have a competition scheduled, I'm more focused on skill development and getting better and broadening my tool shed.

But if I'm like six weeks before comp, I really start amping up the intensity that I bring into the mats against bringing some of that visualization towards practice. And maybe I train less volume pre-competition, but higher output per session. - Yeah, what's a perfect week of training look like?

- If I'm not in competition mode, I would say Monday, Wednesday, Friday twice, every other day just once. If I'm pre-comp, just Monday to Sunday once a day. - So that's on the mat, you're doing the full like positional training, live training. - Bicep curls. - Oh yeah, I do a lot of bicep curls.

Yeah, I lift a few times a week now. - Yeah, cardio or no? Cardio is all mat stuff. - Cardio is all mat stuff. I do do some CrossFit workouts, like CrossFit's, I'll do like some EMOMs or some AMRAPs, or CrossFit terms. - That's for Instagram? - Yeah. But yeah, CrossFit is a good way to kind of like push that threshold sometimes on the mat, 'cause I'm so good, I can't always get that full red line.

So I'll hop in across the gym and I'll do some workouts that bring me closer to death. - What about you, Craig? What is a perfect week in training look like? Like when you're back home training? - I try to be in the gym twice a day, every day, when I'm back, just 'cause I travel a bit more than these guys.

So I try to be there eight and 12 every day, hang out in between. I usually train both of those sessions, depending on how my body feels. - So doing positional, doing every technique, positional, live? - I should probably do more positional, but 'cause I'm just trying to work on wrestling and stuff, and especially leading up to the Volkanovskis last fall, I was trying to wrestle more and focus on those areas, even before I traveled over there, just some experimentation with some stuff.

But yeah. - How do you experiment with stuff? So there's like regular positional stuff, but when you have ideas, like where do you do it in during the training sessions, or do you do it outside of that? Do you get together with somebody? - Usually every session I show up with something I'm thinking of.

Usually something from top, maybe something from bottom, but, and then I just try to maybe pick the right people. Some people, obviously, I'm just fighting to the death with, it's not a good time to experiment. And then others, obviously you can play around with ideas on. - Okay, what about you?

What's a perfect week look like? Maybe, well, you said you're 100% now. - Yeah. So yeah, honestly, I have pretty much the same schedule as Nicky Rod. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I do twice a day, every other day, once a day. And then normally noon practice is like our biggest class.

That's where all the pros go in. So I tend to do more open rounds there. And then we have a 7 p.m. class as well, which is more hobbyist. And that's where I'll do my positional rounds and force myself to be put in bad positions. - So you have, what, you do 8 a.m., 12, like in terms of what B team has, 8 a.m., 12, and 7 p.m.

And the hobbyists are more 7 p.m. - Yes. - Okay. Do you believe in overtraining? Do you think you can overtrain? - I used to not believe in it. (all laughing) But then I got hurt. - Oh, you attribute that to overtraining? The bicep? - I think, dude, I'm telling you, I trained, I lifted like a bodybuilder for like seven years.

And by lifting, I mean, I was lifting seven days a week. And I trained arms most days. Like almost every day I would do like four or five sets and get a pretty good bicep pump in addition to my lift. I think that had to contribute somewhat towards my-- - What about, okay, yeah, fair enough.

Well, what about on the actual mat overtraining, like spending too much time on the mat? - Well-- - Psychological, physical overtraining? - I think you can definitely overtrain, but it's more of a, like, as your body's healthy, you have to make sure your mind is sharp. Like sometimes maybe taking a day away or even diverting your attention in a different aspect of training can help you be a little bit sharper overall.

Sometimes it can be like, it can get a little like stagnant 'cause you're doing the same stuff over and over. But I think if you just keep like overtraining, then your overall baseline just gets higher and you become accustomed to that. - What about you? You don't seem like a guy that over, okay.

- I've heard of it. I've never been close to it. No, I think controlling how hard you train is definitely, it protects you from injury. You know what I mean? Like if you're redlining yourself and then you're fighting to the death in the gym, that's 100% when you're gonna get injured, gonna get sick.

So I try to make sure I've had enough sleep, I've had obviously enough food post-training, and that sort of helps me to train a bit harder, but. Still try to avoid redlining myself too much. - I think established also like what days are gonna be your peak days? 'Cause you're, throughout the week, if you're training seven days a week, you're gonna have ups and downs.

Like for me personally, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, usually my best days. And besides that, I also have other great days. - All my days are great. But Monday, Wednesday, Friday are also great. You're like unable to admit that some days are rougher than others. - I love that. I'm always on, bro.

Okay. What advice would you give to people who are not always on, hobbyists? How to get better? Like people that are already there, I don't know, Purple Bells, Brown Bells, Black Bells, they're just like doing like a couple of times a week or something like that. Like how to get better?

- I think being consistent, like find a schedule that you can consistently train. Maybe it's like three, four times a week or even a little bit less. Just be consistent over the years. I think too often people are like, "Oh, I wanna get really good really fast." And it's like, definitely takes a long time to get to where you wanna be.

- What about what you're doing during like, while being consistent, what kind of stuff you're working on? - So honestly, I think one big thing for me, which is something I actually started doing once B-Team was formed, was filming all of your rounds and then watching it every day.

'Cause then you can see what specific problems you're having and then you can base your positional rounds around those problems. - That's really interesting. It's kind of depressing though. - Yeah. - Like sometimes I have to, I edited this podcast for a long time. I still do in part and I hate the sound of my voice and like what I look like and stuff.

But it does make you better. - Yeah. - And I also hate the sound of Craig's voice. (laughing) So editing this podcast will be especially difficult. This will be doubly difficult. But I'm glad the rest of you are here. I don't know. That's a really... (laughing) - Do you watch competition footage of yourself?

Like to analyze? - Oh, it boosts my confidence. (laughing) That's fucking good. - While you're doing curls? - Yeah. - I try not to watch it to boost my confidence. (laughing) - Is there advice you, Craig, you would give for hobbyists to get better? - I mean, just not every round has to be a fight to the death, you know?

I feel like you're gonna get injured, burn the tail that way. You're not gonna learn as much. - It's tough. I would say just as a black belt who took Jiu-Jitsu very seriously for a very long time, basically when you become a hobbyist, your skill is basically slipping, your age and your skill.

And so not taking stuff seriously is actually its own psychological skill of like... (laughing) That it's tough. It's tough. Like it's tough in a way that is different when you're like a blue belt or something that if you work hard and you train correctly, you're gonna get much better.

Here, you're kinda... - You're looking downhill. - You're looking downhill. You're like, "Yeah, I guess I'm gonna enjoy the art of it." - Reframe the victory. You know, like if it's a young upcoming guy and he comes to me, you're like, "Well, that's a moral victory," you know? - Yeah, but then that has to happen.

You have to be able to not do that to avoid the injury sometimes, like if you want. So yeah, it's a different thing. Plus with me, just because some people recognize me, they... - They're coming. - You have that probably. You guys definitely obviously have that. - I've solved that problem.

- How did you solve that problem? - Travel around, you do a seminar, anything like that. It's believable that you could get submitted once. But if they catch you, give them a few. If people tell their friends they submitted me to a seminar one time, believable. They got me four or five times.

You've robbed them of that. - Okay, that's pretty funny. But it's also, they have this energy, like they think, they're coming in hot. And I usually like to just basically get submitted quickly twice. And just, it changes everything. It makes it more fun. I've noticed it. - Let them submit you twice?

- Yeah, just like very quickly. What are the options? (laughing) - We're not saying you're not. - Make it last longer. Hold off. (laughing) - But then it's like, it's very hard to, yeah, if you're a very serious competitor and so on, you take it seriously, then yes. - Then people go, people, what they try to do, this probably is what happens to you guys, they try to impress you by going super hard.

- I have people every day come to my gym try to take me out. I just say, "Sharp, come to practice, let's get it on." - Do you feel that energy? I feel like I need to talk to Craig here first. (laughing) - Like at a seminar, somebody is coming in really hard, like a brown belt will come in and they really wanna impress you with their technical side, they're a big fan, they've been watching your DVDs, what do you do with a guy like that?

- I make a complete joke out of the role. Give them the pass, mess with them, do stupid shit. Rub them of the realness of it. 'Cause it's stupid, I'm not gonna roll hard with strangers. I feel like you should roll with a circle of people you trust. Injuries happen rolling hard with strangers 'cause that's the same way you get injured in competition 'cause you don't have that relationship with them.

- And I should also mention, that's probably not a good way to impress somebody is by just going ape shit, going 100%. - Oh yeah, not at all. - I think the beauty of Jiu-Jitsu is the camaraderie of it. As you get to know each other, it's technical, different ideas you have and all that.

Yeah, okay. Do you think Gi Jiu-Jitsu is dying in popularity, Craig? - Yeah, it's long dead. I think it's just shows like, I have heard some numbers on the viewership for the Gi Worlds finals and they don't even compare to the undercard of like who's number one events. So I think like when I was coming up and competing in the Gi all the time, you looked at those guys that won black belt with championships and you were like in awe of them.

It almost had that ADCC champion feel. But now that's not the case. You know, I just feel like that, the younger generation aren't looking at who's winning black belt, Gi Worlds. I personally don't think, and I don't think they're like, they wanna be that guy. They wanna be like a Rotolo, Gordon, you know, those are the people they wanna emulate.

- So you think like the Gi, like AbiyJJF Gi tournaments will just keep declining popularity? - I think people will still do it. I mean, it's easier I think as you're over 30 'cause the Gi is a bit of a slower thing and the masters participation is bigger in the Gi 'cause obviously in No Gi is now heading in a wrestling direction.

Wrestling and heel hooks, you're over 30, that's a terrifying prospect. So you know, what's terrifying about the Gi? Less. So I think in a participation rate, the AbiyJJF will still be good, but I just don't think people are as interested as they used to be. - Well, why is wrestling and heel hooks terrifying?

Like heel hooks I can vaguely understand if you don't understand heel hooks. - You work a desk job and you've never wrestled and a guy double legs you, that's gonna probably break your back. You know, I think the older guys are scared of wrestling. It's hard to wrestle at 40.

- To learn wrestling at 40. - Is it? Yeah, I mean, I think it's even just hard in general to do wrestling at 40, but it's easy to pull half guard in the Gi at 40. - I think it's hard to do judo at 40 and people still do it at 40.

Judo hurts more. - Judo's scarier than all of them. - Yeah. I think, does wrestling really hurt at 40? - I don't know. - I don't know, I'm looking at you. - Yeah. - It does, interesting. - I feel, I agree with you saying that judo looks like the most dangerous.

Like even their practice partners, they're just getting slammed flat. They're bueno. - Yeah, I did judo for a really long time. There's a lot of people that are 40, 50, 60 do judo. And they get- - They're the ones that are still alive though. (laughing) - It's true. Survivor bias.

You do a little bit of judo, right? - Yeah, I'm a yellow belt. - You're a yellow belt in judo? I should be your instructor. (laughing) Promote you to orange. - I got a yellow belt in the sixth grade. I believe it was the sixth grade. I did it for about, I don't know, six months.

- But you're also using judo in competition, basically. Aren't you doing like harai type throw, like you're doing- - Yeah, I don't know where I learned that. I just started doing it. - You just started lifting your leg in various ways until it worked? - Just figuring it out, yeah.

- Doing different kinds of trips? - I looked at the sandboat guys doing it. I was like, "Can't be that hard." - Yeah. - Gave it a crack. - Well, they looked at your foot locks and they said, "That can't be that hard." - They said, "Can't be that hard.

"Ban it from the tournaments." (laughing) - All right. (laughing) What do you think is the best takedown in nogi, jujitsu? Like what, like if people were trying to train for a competition, so on, like where you see the trends heading? - I think the foot sweep is like catching fire nowadays.

See a lot of foot sweeps. Foot sweeps and arm drags, I would say pretty popular in our sport. - Arm drag. So you just got arm drag to, okay. Arm drag either to get them, like get to behind them or even just to cause reactions, make them pull away and we can start reattacking.

- Are you talking about it in a context of what's the best takedown to score? What's the safest takedown to mitigate the risk of guillotine submission or most effective in general? - Yeah, most effective combined. Yeah, yeah. I mean, ultimately it's about scoring. - I think any sort of body lock, you know what I mean?

Locking your hands around the body, being able to put them to the floor that way. I feel like that's most effective, safest. Might even have arisen out of a leg attack, a leg entry, upgrade to the body. - What about like foot sweeps, like outside foot sweeps? What do we?

- I would say, yeah, you know, foot sweeps from outside foot sweeps or even like something like you're tossed on a poor body and you're sweeping the foot. - Yeah, those are all pretty safe. See, why is that scary? I don't understand. It's not scary at all. - I think it's the lifts that are scary.

- The lifts, yeah. - Who's lifting people? - I'm like, you're like a good lifter. - Return? - I'm not, I mean, in master, like we're talking about older guys doing no gi. - Some of those old bosses take it very serious. - They just start lifting. - TRT worlds.

- TRT world. - They're coming. They're coming to impress. - Grab a lift, all right. Just for the gram. Okay, what about submission? What's your favorite submission? And what do you think is the most effective submission? Except the buggy choke. - I would have to say the rear naked.

It's definitely the one that's hit the most and the highest level of competition. - Was that, that was pretty interesting to see you escape all that and to put it on. That's the cool thing about EBI, to see like the world-class athletes. I was surprised that it's possible to escape with you on his back.

- Gotta try some B cream. - Oh yeah. - B cream, as it helps? What's in the, what's the formula or is that a secret? - That is a proprietary blend for sure. - Okay, but that's what you use for greasing. That's what you greased before. - Allegedly. - Allegedly.

Is there other application outside of grappling? Or? - I'm sure you can get creative. - All right. Thanks. Asking for a friend. Is that RNC for you as well? Rear naked? - Rear naked choke, I mean, overall favorite for like solidifying a finish. 'Cause like you can push, you can put somebody to sleep.

Right? Even if they don't want to tag, put them to sleep. But as far as like something I've been working on now that I'm now starting to implement in competition, Yoko Senkaku side triangle is like, it's a beautiful thing. You have multiple options. You have the triangle to finish.

If that fails, you have the Kimura. You could break the arm. You could also just transfer and take the back. So Yoko Senkaku, I'm a big fan of, and I continue to progress and get better at it. - Have you ever broken anyone's arm? - Oh yeah. I mean, the first few competitions, 'cause I was like, you know, pretty athletic grappler, or athletic wrestler going against like local black belts and brown belts.

Like one of my first matches, I broke somebody at Kimura. Pretty much every time I've got a heel hook, which is only twice I've broken an opponent. If I have a joint lock, it's probably going to break. Like a lot of times it breaks before they tap. Yeah. - You seem like a really friendly fella.

How hard is it to break an arm or break a joint? - Well, I don't think it's that hard. I think like if you're talking like about an arm bar, we have this position to where like people are kind of holding on, holding on, and then it slips and their arm starts going.

And then it just breaks before they even, you know, get a chance to tap. - I love this point. - I knee barred a guy and he didn't tap one time. And it was actually, it was surprising. I had to put a lot of force into that. As opposed to arms, shoulders, and the ligaments in the knees and ankles, but to fully, this kid, Sambo kid, fully let it go.

And he tapped it out. I think the angle is like up here. - They're built different. - Hopefully he can be reconstructed different. - He's rebuilt different. (laughing) - All right. What about a straight foot lock? You've ever, do you guys do straight foot locks at all? Or no?

- Yeah, I mean, I'm learning them now. We had some kid come in the practice one day and like, fucking full on, all of us do. - With a straight foot lock. - Straight foot lock, just this little like Polish kid. - Not only did he foot lock everyone, but he told the entire world.

(laughing) He sent out fucking emails, called his friends and family. We practically put a hit out on him in practice and he just sent everybody. (laughing) - Yeah, it's always interesting when you get like, yeah, people that specialize can surprise you that this could be effective stuff. Do you think there's other stuff that could be still discovered in Jiu Jitsu?

Like what areas do you think are ripe with techniques to discover? Like wrestling is really interesting now. There's a lot of innovation happening in wrestling. - I think there'll be more innovation when we get people that are more adamant about standing up from bottom position. I think if we get more of the community, they're like, all right, I wanna get off the bottom.

- DDD, just stand up. - Just stand up. - How Jiu Jitsu doesn't work. - We actually changed the name. How Sambo doesn't work if you just stand up. - Did you really? - Yeah. - All right. I'll change it to Jiu Jitsu when I pirate it and send it for free to the entirety of the Soviet block.

(laughing) And Nikki Rod, do you think ego is useful for martial arts or does it get in the way? - Okay, I think you need to use it in both ways. For sure, have an ego, like if you're training competition mode, but also it can prevent you from learning and progressing if your ego is too high.

Like you really have to shut the ego down when you're in the mode of learning and trying to develop skills 'cause you're gonna put yourself in these bad positions. You're gonna have issues with training partners that aren't necessarily up to your skill level, but because you're in these bad positions, you have to make these certain sacrifices.

And for sure, ego can be a good or bad thing, but if you're able to shut the ego off and learn, then that'll have huge progression when it's time to put the ego into use during competition. - When's the last time you shut the ego off? - It's been a long time.

(laughing) - What about you, Craig? I mean, you seem to be super easygoing. Is the ego just not part of it? - Oh, for sure. I just don't want anyone to know they've damaged my ego. You have to suppress it deep down. - There's a child underneath all of it crying always.

- For sure. I think ego is good for a bit of perseverance. Like it'll help you stick it out against a tough battle with a training partner, for sure. A bit of ego's on the line. Plus the bands are back and forth. We're trying to stir each other up a bit.

- Talk this shit, yeah. - I think that helps hone, sharpen the ego a bit. - Oh, what about you? Do you seem like a super humble guy? Is there a monster underneath? - It's a total act. - Yeah, I definitely think ego's a big motivator. I think it's very good to have in the aspect that it'll drive you to want to be one of the best in the world.

But like Nicky Rod said, you need to be able to turn it off in the training room and force yourself into bad positions where you may not be winning. - Are there, like, Donna has mentioned Boris. Are there grapplers like Boris? This is a question from Reddit, actually. Boris-like characters, anybody you've trained with in the past who doesn't compete but is just an absolute beast in training?

Like people you've met that are just like-- - Well, somebody that I think has probably the best submission grappling in MMA, I think like Gilbert Burns is, his submission grappling is very, very good. I trained with him early on in my grappling career and I was really impressed by his ability to move, hold down opponents that are trying to stand up.

And as a whole, he can get submissions and put people away. - Have you, when's the last time, have you trained with him recently or no? - No, it's been a few years. - Which is an impressive ability to submit, you're saying? - Yeah, like, I mean, you would see, I'd see Gilbert go against a few pretty decent black belts in the room and fare well.

And maybe he gets to their back, puts a choke in, and it's like Gilbert's super high-level grappling or submission grappling. - Yeah, but he's pretty widely recognized as a monster. So I don't know, you didn't really answer the question. It's like you're not even listening anymore. - I don't remember what was the question.

(all laughing) - All right, well, what, is there people, like you've done all these seminars, are there just, especially in the Eastern Bloc, the, you've seen, like you went to Kazakhstan, is there killers out there that-- - Oh yeah, there's tough guys out there. Obviously I don't remember their names nor could I pronounce it if I did, but definitely some tough guys out there, obviously carrying skill sets over from wrestling for sure, not Sambo, but wrestling.

- Wrestling, but yeah, are there just people that surprise you that just don't compete, that are really good? Are there, have you met those? - I feel like it's less so today 'cause there's so many more athletes in the sport, but definitely when I was coming up back like in Australia and stuff, there were guys I'd train with that wouldn't compete and that would be like super tough rounds for me.

- Yeah, and there's so many more avenues for competing in general, so yeah. - What about you, have you met some monsters? - Yeah, one guy I could think of in particular is Jason Rau, he trains up in Long Island I think, right? Opened up his own gym out there.

- Vanguard. - Yeah, Vanguard, he used to compete, but he would never be able to compete at the same level he would train at, so now he's just focused on mainly, opening up a gym and teaching his students, but he was a guy that was extremely good in the training room, world-class.

I still think to this day he's legitimately one of the best in the world, but just doesn't compete anymore. - Who wins in a fight, a lion or a bear? - Polo bear? - This is for you, Reddit. No, not a polo, well yes, it's a good question. See, your polo bear is pretty impressive.

No, grizzly bear. - Grizzly bear. I think a grizzly bear wins. - Well, who is the most threatening predator in Australia? Kangaroo? - Well, I mean, it's a tricky question here 'cause everyone's scared of the animals in Australia, but I mean, you get bitten by a snake, you get bitten by a spider, that's not that bad.

Bear, America, a bear will just hold you down and eat you. That's a much more terrifying prospect for me. Even sharks, sharks are gonna be quick. No one sees the shark coming, the shark's just gonna bite you in half. - A bear will take a bite and chew. - A bear just holds you down and eats you, so that's frightening for me.

Australia's a bunch of just weird shit that can kill you. - Did you see "Cocaine Bear," the movie that's coming out? - I saw the trailer, it looks good. - Yeah, yeah, so there's not every bear, there's like black belts and there's black belts, there's bears and there's bears.

So I think that's what they often don't talk about. Everybody puts lions and bears in the same category. I think there's just some weak bears. - A lion would kill a black bear, I think. - Not every black, again, I'm trying to tell you, there's difference. - But grizzly and polar bear, I'm betting on those.

- Yeah, no, I think grizzlies have the size, but actually every video I've seen of grizzlies, they tie out within like 20 seconds. They get bored. - That's the gas tank? - Yeah, the gas tank. - That's a Nicky Ryan gas tank, right? - Yeah, that's all they got.

- Dream old. (laughing) - And they try to just take a breather. Like there's these crazy fights between bears and they last like 20 seconds. - I heard this story about a Russian family that was attacked by a bear in Russia and killed the dad. And it took so long to eat the daughter, she made three phone calls to her mom while I was eating her.

And the first call, the mom thought she was pranking her. - That's crazy. - That's way scarier than what we go through now. Give me a snake bite any day. - Yeah, you know what, let me change the question. If you had to fight a bear or a lion, how would you try to defeat it?

Do you think you have a chance at all? - Well, I think I'd attack a lion a little bit differently than I'd attack a bear. - What would be the difference? - Okay, well, I've seen this video where a lion's are eating and you have three like screeny guys walk up behind them and kind of scare the cat off of their food.

I think maybe I produce some props, scare the lion away. But if I have to fight it straight on, I mean, the thing is that even if you take the back, like you can't like bite it or choke it, the mane is too big to lock your hands around.

- Are you sure about that? 'Cause the mane is just hair. - Yeah, the mane is just hair. - Yeah, it's thick hair, it's like matted hair. I don't know, so I think- - Do you think you can maintain back control on a lion? - Maintain, yeah, yeah. But getting there, I think I fake high, go low.

Make them think I'm going for the foot or something, a little paw sweep and I take the back. - What about a bear? I feel like they're easier, that might be easier to take, to hold back control. - Yeah, maybe, the thing is if the bear falls on its back, it's just gonna crush it.

It's so big, it's substantially bigger than a lion, right? Like a full grown person. - And they're also like terrifyingly like loud with their roars and stuff. - Yeah, I think, so first of all, if I saw a grizzly, I'm like, "Oh, he's gonna attack me." I try to yell a little bit louder than them, maybe their turn a little bit, like give them a, "Oh." And then, yeah, for sure, I try to get behind it.

I probably go like something weird, maybe like pull the eyes out or something, for sure. I mean, I'm going for the vital organs. - Play dead. - Play dead. - And then oil check it. - There's no pride in that. - Wow, pride even matters. See the ego, the same advice you gave, you gotta put the ego aside with a bear.

Even then, even then. Would you, how would you fight a bear or a lion? Just play dead? - Play dead, yeah. Could you beat a kangaroo? A kangaroo. - Oh yeah. - Kangaroo? I'd beat the shit out of a kangaroo. - Dragon? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, are we boxing gloves?

We just like- - How would a kangaroo attack a human? - Try to kick him with the claws. - Knock him down and then they chug him. - Stand on that tail. - Do the kangaroos do? - They choke each other, yeah. - They don't choke each other. - You don't believe me?

You wanna watch a video? They choke each other out. - I've seen this, yeah. (laughing) - No? - Yeah. - Is this real? - Yeah, yeah. - With what? - They do this. - With a headlock or what? - Yeah, they knock him and just grip like this and hold him.

- What's the grip? - Just the handle. - Like little paws, how are they gripping? - I promise you, I'm not lying to you. - Pretty sure I've seen the video. - They also do strange shit, like if there's a predator around, they'll wait in a pool of water and then if it comes to attack, they drown it.

They're pretty smart. (laughing) - Okay, speaking of which, what's the most effective martial art for winning a street fight? You talked about rule sets and streets. I think you've talked about being a street, have you ever been in a street fight? - Yeah, just one. - Yeah. - Nothing special, nothing crazy, hey.

- Yeah, you don't talk about that time. Like for self-defense purposes, what would be a strategy on the street? What's advice? - I feel like whoever wins the street fights, whoever's willing to take it the furthest, the fastest. You know what I mean? If you're thinking that you're gonna box and he's biting you, poking your eyes, that guy's gonna win.

He wants it more. You know what I mean? That's why the crackheads fight. They go for the kill straight away. So I feel like it's more about who's willing to do the most that's gonna win that fight. - Fastest, the most fastest. - Who's got the least to lose, you know?

- Yeah, we could also define winning differently 'cause you could also run away. - But in terms of technique-wise, wrestling, Judo. - I think if it's a one-on-one, I'd go wrestler wins. But if it's like multiple people, you gotta go Muay Thai, stay on your feet. Can't go down to the ground if it's more than one person.

- Yeah, big double leg maybe. - Yeah, double leg, put him asleep on the impact, right? Forehead to the ground. - Yeah, what's the goal here? Is to win the fight and not go to prison? - I haven't thought of it through that way. Yeah, certainly, yeah. Yeah, not to kill the person.

- You got mutual combat here in Texas, we're good. - Is that in Texas? - Do you know what the paperwork for that looks like? Do you have to actually sign something? Or can you just say-- - I hope I don't need to find out. I did hear a story where guys were on 6th Street and they looked at a cop, they were like, "Mutual combat, mutual combat?" And just got the cops to say yes and just duked it out.

That could be false though. - That sounds crazy. - I'm just saying. - I kinda admire that, but I've also been playing Red Dead Redemption recently. So I've internalized the cowboy a little too much. Just to return to gym stuff. No, because it's a business, because you're running a business, there's money involved, but you're also friends, but you're also training partners.

Is there a tension that money creates that threatens to destroy friendships? - That's something I always worry about with money. I try not to go do any kind of business with friends or family. - I think if it were all very clear and honest and open at the start, it makes it much easier.

I think people have issues when there's like, kind of like things are written in fine print and nobody knows the exact answers. - And a lot of Jiu-Jitsu guys can't read. You know, that makes it challenging as well. - We're learning that today. - Yeah. (laughing) - No. - It's definitely complicated though.

- Yeah, I mean, it's not always obvious how to be transparent and stuff about everything. Have you felt that tension? 'Cause in the Jiu-Jitsu world, money's not really unlimited. Just running a school, what's that like? 'Cause this is the first time you're running a school, running a gym. - Yeah, I mean, it's just constantly updating people about what's going on, what your expectations are.

You know what I mean? We've had some problems with coaches who I feel like think the pie is bigger than it is. You know what I mean? They feel like maybe we're getting rich out of this and they're missing out on things. So it's like, even amongst managing staff, that can be challenging too.

So yeah, I mean, it's a constant work in progress to make, not only to make sure everyone's happy, but to make sure they're comfortable enough to reach out and tell you they're unhappy. But I feel like those challenges are common amongst any small business. - Still, it sucks. Just to mention, I'm clueless to this, but I'm just now learning this.

Somebody I met and talked to and I really like is Isaac. - Yeah. (laughs) - Because you're also active on Reddit. What's your name on Reddit? - Oh, John Belushi. - John Belushi's mom. - As undercover as possible, you know? - Oh, it's not you. It's actually John Belushi's mom, right?

So I've done my research, I guess. And I guess you guys had a falling out and have split. I just wanna say that, I don't know, the few interactions I've had with him, he's a beautiful human being. So that just shows to me- - Visually, maybe not internally. - And sexually, just the experience.

No, he's just a kind person. I don't know, I liked him a lot. Like to me, in a business setting, yeah, tensions are created and it sucks. I don't know. I mean, I suppose money, all the stuff that happened in the jungle aside, probably money had a role to play to create extra tension.

Money and egos about like, who is the leader, who is not the leader, it's tough. It's tough to manage that kind of stuff. I've seen it happen with jujitsu schools a lot. I don't know exactly what, 'cause it's like, there is also a hierarchy inside grappling, jujitsu schools, like people that are better or not.

There's literally ranks, black belt and brown belt. There's like competitors that are better. I mean, it's a weird dynamic in which to operate. 'Cause like usually there's more politeness and like humanity layered into the way a company works. But here there's just a bunch of, I mean, it's like violence laid on display, plus money.

It's crazy. Is there something you could say to that? Like how you try to minimize? Or something you wanna comment on, Isaac? - Yeah, I mean, it was unfortunate situation, but it just didn't work out. You know, like there's gonna be personality clashes. Some people-- - I can't imagine anyone having a personality clash with you.

- With me? - Yeah. It's hard to imagine. - Yeah, surprising, shocking. You know, I mean, I didn't even know what to say on that. I don't wanna touch on it too much, but obviously his expectations about his role in the gym, obviously different from ours, led to some personality clashes.

It was sort of unresolved. Well, you know, some things happen that can't be resolved. You can't fix those things. You know, obviously a lesson, I hope for both of us, definitely a lesson for me from a management role to try to address these things sooner. But also sometimes I came up in a different time where there was no money, no opportunities.

I had to pave that way totally for myself, especially coming from Australia. Like being a professional athlete in Jiu-Jitsu was not a thing so I had to pave a lot of opportunities for myself. And I feel like sometimes, oh, I don't know what the right word is. Sometimes people don't appreciate some of the ways you help them.

And they just think, feel like almost they deserve or are entitled to certain things. And that is very difficult to manage. But I think again, like we both see the situation different. I do hope he finds a better, a more comfortable place to train. But yeah, obviously I've known him for a long time, sort of like a brotherly relationship.

So that's gonna really make personal problems a lot worse when you're that close to someone, you know? - I just hate it that like I've seen in Jiu-Jitsu especially, but in other places where like close friendships were destroyed because of like gym stuff, like people running gyms. And it just, as a person who is in this case, just a fan, but in general, just like a student, it's like sucks.

- But again, in my position, sometimes I wonder if there really was a friendship or mere opportunity. I have to be careful of that with some people in the sport. - It's tough, yeah. - Is it a sincere relationship or like, I mean, it's difficult for me to tell, or am I a means to an end?

- Sure, but I think it's actually a trade-off because I think a lot of close friendships we have, like even relationships we have, like when tested, like can break if they're not properly communicated. Like some of it could be just misunderstanding of like for a prolonged period of time.

It's not explained through just like a lack of integrity. It's just like you have to like talk through that shit. Like just be honest with each other. - Take some MDMA and really get down to it. - Drugs solve everything. You've already heard it from this conversation. I've actually haven't done MDMA yet.

People say that that's something I would enjoy a lot 'cause my brain is, I think, natural on MDMA. - I'd recommend it for sure. - For sure. Is that what you did with Gabby on the L-Titan? Okay, nevermind. - She drugs me. - In general, why does there always seem to be drama in the Jiu-Jitsu world?

Like outside of what's going on here? Or is that just-- - I think it's universal to anything. - Drama's everywhere? And then drama rises to the surface? - Drama makes the money. - Yeah, I wish there was a little bit less. You have a bunch of, like we mentioned some of them, you have a bunch of instructionals out.

What are some interesting things that you're looking forward to exploring in terms of teaching? So Just Stand Up is your most recent one, right? Yeah, you also have one called Power Bottom, an inclusive modern approach to the guard. (laughing) - Yep, yep. - What are some other ones? - False Reap Allegations.

- False Reap Allegations, yeah. By the way, people talk about Power Bottom, again, hilarious title, but they say it's a really good instructional on like the guard. - Yeah, I try to at least be innovative. You know, like everyone else, I feel like's ripping off John and Gordon, putting some sort of slants on that.

So I'm trying to take sort of a different approach. I think you can actively influence the sport with what you release, 'cause people are gonna try to emulate that. So I think those type of instructionals, Just Stand Up, Power Bottom, like approaching the sport differently, I think definitely has a positive impact on how people play the game.

- Yeah, are you working on something now? - Probably a fundamentals course, just 'cause we're bringing out, we got the White Belt Program coming in. So I'm trying to develop a fundamentals course along the line of the constraint-based learning stuff we were talking about today, like a way to approach learning as a beginner to sort of speed up the process a bit and not make it as so technique dense, at least have it a bit more fun.

- And focusing in on just like examples of problems to solve. - Exactly, yeah. Approaching judicially learning that way. Like, I mean, kids learn quick through games. I think adults are capable of that to a certain extent as well. - You're releasing that instructional on pre-match preparation? - Yes.

- What other stuff? Do you have anything on a body lock pass? - Yeah, I have a body lock or a body lock DVD or instructional. Yeah, I have the pre-match ritual coming out. I also have, I'm filming how to build athleticism for grappling. Just really trying to capture different angles, kind of like the same, you know, with Craig's zone, try not to do the same thing that everybody else does.

You know, there's a ton of wrestling, ton of jujitsu instructional. - And the steroid results are coming out. - Oh yeah, yeah. More plates, more dates. You know, Derek runs that. Hit me up for a blood panel test, like an impromptu thing. And I did it a few days ago and I believe the results will come out shortly.

- Oh yeah. Do you know the results? What are you betting on, Lex? - What do you think? It's hard to believe. - Yeah, it's very impressive. (laughing) You're putting me in an awkward position here. - Do you think you'll face Gordon soon? - I'm open to it. I don't know how soon, maybe in the next six months.

I could see me facing him before ADCC Worlds. - I think that's a great rivalry. I think it's a really interesting one. - It's fun for me. - Is there any chance that the two, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany get back together? That DDS, under whatever name, gets back together?

- No, absolutely not. - Highly unlikely. I mean, we kind of did this to back up Nicky Ryan and we're sticking with our guy. - So what do you think? - Yeah, I think there's just too many personality conflicts for it to really ever work again. - Do you think there will always be war in the world?

- War? - Yeah. - Oh yeah, I think from the beginning of time, it's been some kind of war, some kind of battle. Controversy is what helps people evolve. - Until AI, super intelligent AI, becomes way more powerful than humans and humbles all of us with his power before he destroys us.

- Until it runs out of batteries. (laughing) You guys are screwed. (laughing) - I'm really fortunate to be able to hang out with you, to train with you, and thank you so much for talking today. (laughing) - That's the best ending. - Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nicky Ryan.

To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Miyamoto Musashi. You must understand that there's more than one path to the top of the mountain. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)