financial-samurai-po_jamie-and-sam_full-length-jun-6-2023-
00:00:00.000 | Hello, everybody. It's Sam from the Financial Samurai podcast. And in this episode, I have
00:00:04.760 | a special guest with me, Jamie Fiori Higgins, who is Financial Times 25 Most Influential
00:00:12.760 | Women of 2022 and ex-Goldman Sachs Managing Director and author of Bully Market, My Story
00:00:20.420 | of Money and Misogyny at Goldman Sachs. Welcome, Jamie.
00:00:24.360 | Thank you. So nice to be here.
00:00:27.140 | It's great to be here. I read your book in a matter of days. It was one of the best page-turning
00:00:33.280 | books I have ever read. It was similar to like the Da Vinci Code, but for Wall Street.
00:00:38.440 | Wow. That's a great compliment. Thank you.
00:00:41.480 | And I'm so impressed with the book, especially as an author myself. I've started to read
00:00:47.380 | more books, actually, after writing a book because I appreciate how much goes into a
00:00:51.560 | book. How long did it take for you to write this book? And when did it start percolating
00:00:56.040 | in your mind?
00:00:57.760 | Well, I left Goldman Sachs in the spring of '16 without any thoughts about writing a book,
00:01:06.680 | but I couldn't believe how depressed I was, which was crazy because I left on my own.
00:01:14.100 | I left because it was just an untenable environment. But yet, and I don't want to be insensitive
00:01:23.240 | with this comment, but it was almost like an abusive relationship that I knew wasn't
00:01:27.720 | good for me, but yet I was so depressed that I left it behind. And that really surprised
00:01:34.480 | me because it was all I had wanted. And so I said, "You know what? This is interesting.
00:01:39.560 | I need to just write it out and just try to figure out why." And writing isn't therapy,
00:01:45.640 | but writing can be therapeutic.
00:01:46.640 | Yes.
00:01:47.640 | A couple of friends of mine are like, "You should just write some of the stuff that happened,"
00:01:51.760 | because I was really fortunate to have this sabbatical. And when I left Goldman, I had
00:01:56.920 | four little kids and ages seven and under. And so I threw myself into volunteering. And
00:02:04.000 | I was a bit of a unicorn. You don't see a lot of, at least in my area, which is suburban
00:02:08.800 | New York City, you don't see a lot of working people stepping out of their career in their
00:02:13.760 | forties. A lot of the moms I know either took a step back a little earlier or kept on working.
00:02:19.280 | And so I would tell some anecdotes to people. I'll never forget, I was doing planting, spring
00:02:25.240 | planting and I told a mom about how my colleagues had mooed at me like a cow when I went to
00:02:32.960 | go to the lactation rooms. And her incredulous expression, don't get me wrong, I knew it
00:02:39.160 | was messed up, but seeing it from her perspective, I was like, "This was such a crazy environment
00:02:45.280 | and yet I'm missing it on some weird level." And so I started writing about it. And I'm
00:02:51.200 | sure this resonates with you, but I would write for a month and then I would give up
00:02:57.680 | on it for a couple months. And then I would write for a month and I would give up on it
00:03:01.200 | for a couple months. And then I made the big error and that was I told people I was writing
00:03:06.080 | a book. And so then it would come up like, "Oh, how's that book coming?" And I said,
00:03:11.000 | "I got to finish this thing now." So I would say I kind of started it in late 2016, but
00:03:16.760 | then I focused on it in earnest in like 2019. So once I started focusing in on earnest,
00:03:24.160 | it took me a couple years to finish. So about two years of like concerted, the big joke
00:03:30.360 | was I hired myself to be a writer. It was an unpaid position, but I committed to 20
00:03:37.640 | hours a week. And so once I started 20 hours a week, it took me about two years to do it.
00:03:42.800 | - Got it. No, I totally hear you and empathize on the difficulty of writing a book and starting
00:03:48.040 | is you just got to start and commit. Otherwise, it's just so hard.
00:03:52.200 | - Yes. It's not going to write itself, right? - Yeah, it's not going to write yourself.
00:03:56.040 | - You have to put down and do it. - So you left in 2016, you finished the book
00:04:00.720 | circa 2019, 2020? - It took me about two years. So in earnest,
00:04:05.440 | I started the beginning of 2019. I finished in the beginning of 2021. And I got my book
00:04:11.120 | deal in the summer of 2021 and it came out in the summer of 2020.
00:04:15.560 | - Oh, wow. Okay. So right in the middle of the pandemic and basically shopped it around.
00:04:22.960 | Was it a difficult process? - In some ways, yes. In some ways, no. When
00:04:28.080 | I finished the book in the beginning of 2021, I didn't know what I was going to do with
00:04:31.800 | it. I didn't know if it was going to sit in my basement. I didn't know if I was going
00:04:35.240 | to self-publish it. I really didn't have these goals of commercial publishing. I mean, of
00:04:41.560 | course, that's something an author always dreams about, but it wasn't something I really
00:04:46.800 | was intending on. And then I had taken some writing classes and my writing teacher knew
00:04:52.160 | of a freelance editor who worked with an agency. And then, Sam, I mean, I don't want to say
00:04:58.760 | embarrassed because I know how hard it is for some. It just came so easy. Like I met
00:05:03.840 | this freelance editor and in March, by May I had an agent and by July I had signed with
00:05:09.760 | Simon and Schuster. So that part really came with ease. Then of course, there are all the
00:05:16.280 | like mental things that come up like, "Oh my God, am I really going to go through with
00:05:21.280 | this and like bare my soul to the world?" Because it's very gutsy, bearing your soul
00:05:25.680 | to the world when it's just a manuscript sitting in your basement.
00:05:28.640 | Right.
00:05:29.640 | It's another value proposition when you realize that it's going to be made accessible
00:05:34.840 | to the public. And that I struggle with a little bit during the process. But then by
00:05:39.560 | the time it was published, I had made peace with it to say, "You know what? I really
00:05:45.120 | think that the message is worth putting myself out there."
00:05:52.240 | It's a very strong message and a very vulnerable and open message. I think the readers will
00:05:58.080 | appreciate how vulnerable and open you are. Just your story about your colleagues saying
00:06:03.040 | moo moo when you went to the lactation room, I was thinking to myself, "Wow, at that
00:06:09.920 | time what level were you at Goldman?"
00:06:11.960 | I was a managing director.
00:06:12.960 | You were a managing director and the colleagues who were saying that were what level?
00:06:16.680 | Managing directors.
00:06:17.680 | Oh, they were managing directors too.
00:06:19.240 | Yeah.
00:06:20.240 | Okay.
00:06:21.240 | Some were vice presidents. Some were managing directors. Some were vice presidents.
00:06:24.600 | But yeah, if you were a VP saying that to an MD, is that not a career limiting move?
00:06:32.680 | Not in my world it wasn't. Not in my world it wasn't. And I think that's the rub that
00:06:39.320 | so many of these kind of egregious behaviors went unchecked that it almost became normalized.
00:06:50.000 | Yeah.
00:06:51.000 | It almost just became that kind of locker room, "Oh, they're just busting chops."
00:06:55.160 | Yeah, right. Busting chops.
00:06:56.520 | And when that happens, I looked across the desk and everyone had their heads down. And
00:07:01.360 | either they were not paying attention or they just didn't want to see it because it was
00:07:05.240 | almost like if I don't acknowledge it and I pretend it's not there, maybe it's not there.
00:07:12.080 | I did the same thing, Sam. I endured a lot as a woman at that firm, but I also perpetuate
00:07:18.720 | a lot by my silence, by my not speaking up. And I think you don't speak up for a couple
00:07:26.640 | reasons. Number one, because you're afraid to. And number two, because I think to speak
00:07:29.920 | up admits that you're part of the problem. And that's a scary thing to admit to.
00:07:34.920 | Yeah. I just remember my times. We were actually colleagues. I was at One New York Plaza on
00:07:39.760 | the 49th floor. Were you at One New York Plaza as well?
00:07:42.440 | I was.
00:07:43.440 | What floor were you on?
00:07:44.440 | 48th.
00:07:45.440 | 48th. Okay. So I was right one above you. And yeah, Busting chops was the way the world
00:07:52.200 | – I remember I was a first year analyst in 1999 and I was told to get coffee. You
00:07:57.080 | go downstairs to the basement to get coffee. And it was like an eight-person order. So
00:08:00.840 | it took forever. It was long lines. And I said, "You know what? I'm going to go get
00:08:04.360 | a haircut while I wait for my coffee." And so I went to get a haircut and they cut it.
00:08:09.200 | At the barber in the basement?
00:08:10.600 | Yeah, at the barber in the basement.
00:08:12.080 | Everyone was there, right?
00:08:13.400 | Yeah.
00:08:14.400 | And so I was like, "All right. I'm going to spend 20 minutes to get the haircut."
00:08:17.320 | And then when I got up, man, the barber cut it really high and tight and everybody started
00:08:22.560 | busting my chops. They said, "Oh, Sam. Well, if it grows on company time, I guess you cut
00:08:26.820 | it on company time."
00:08:27.820 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:08:30.280 | But it's just this culture that I guess you start getting used to it, right? And if
00:08:34.880 | you step out of the culture, you start getting a target under your back. How does that work?
00:08:39.880 | Yeah. Well, it's really ironic because I went to a woman's college.
00:08:44.320 | Yeah, Bryn Mawr.
00:08:45.320 | It was like Bryn Mawr. And it's no joke when they chant down with the patriarchy. I was
00:08:52.320 | in this very extreme environment and then I came to Goldman. And very soon, even the
00:09:00.960 | first day when people were locked out of training, it was this very punitive, punishing environment,
00:09:08.360 | like hazing.
00:09:09.360 | Yes.
00:09:10.360 | And even when I was on the desk, all those things, it just didn't ring true to me. And
00:09:14.480 | I remember being like, "This is ridiculous. You're just being dramatic, Jamie. Don't be
00:09:21.480 | a drama queen. This is just the way it is on Wall Street. Just get used to it."
00:09:25.680 | And in some ways, because I went to this very pro-women, women's feminist college, I thought
00:09:33.480 | to myself, "Well, maybe that's not normal. Maybe this is normal." So in some ways, I
00:09:40.600 | think I easily bought into it because I didn't go to a co-ed college. And I thought, "Well,
00:09:45.720 | maybe Bryn Mawr was just kind of feeding me an unrealistic view of the world and this
00:09:51.380 | is the way it is." And I hate to overuse the word because it's used so much, but it was
00:09:57.480 | kind of gaslighting.
00:09:58.480 | Like when I would think, "This doesn't feel right." It's like, "You're just overreacting.
00:10:02.700 | This is just how it is on Wall Street." And so you'll look around and nobody's saying
00:10:07.280 | anything. They're either participating in it or just ignoring it. So you're like, "Yes,
00:10:12.560 | this is the way it is." I mean, just think about socially when you're in an environment
00:10:18.000 | and something doesn't ring true to you, what's the first thing you do? You'll look around
00:10:21.880 | to kind of see, "Am I crazy here?" And everyone's head would be down. So I assumed, "Okay, well,
00:10:28.640 | this is just the way it is." So you're kind of almost forced to buy into it in order to
00:10:34.180 | survive.
00:10:35.180 | Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it seems like a locker room culture and there's so much
00:10:41.260 | consensus driven decision making at Goldman and other big firms that you can't get blackballed,
00:10:48.900 | otherwise you can't get promoted.
00:10:49.900 | Well, and it's funny that you say consensus building because are they really building
00:10:53.900 | consensus or is it just kind of a group think?
00:10:57.300 | Yeah, group think, right.
00:10:58.300 | You know, like consensus almost to me means you're finding a common ground with everyone.
00:11:05.300 | But I really feel at Goldman it was like, "Here is the party line. If you're not with
00:11:09.420 | us, then you're against us."
00:11:10.420 | Right, I see that.
00:11:11.420 | So really it was more of a group think assimilation culture, I think veiled in a, "Oh, we're consensus
00:11:21.500 | building." But it really wasn't.
00:11:25.860 | Interesting. Can you talk about your career progression from analyst, associate, VP to
00:11:31.940 | MD? How long did each stage take? And can you talk about the setbacks where you were
00:11:38.780 | up for promotion, you didn't get it and why?
00:11:41.180 | Yeah, yeah. So I started in '98 in the analyst program at Goldman, which is like a straight
00:11:46.140 | up two-year analyst program. So I made associate in 2000. And associate is usually like a two
00:11:55.180 | or three-year gig. I have to remember what year I made VP. I want to say I made it in
00:12:01.820 | 2003. So it was like a three-year gig for me. And initially I like to kind of call it
00:12:08.180 | the white noise of Wall Street. There was just kind of all that kind of nonsense going
00:12:12.180 | around. And the nonsense was kind of the hazing you were talking about that you experienced.
00:12:18.780 | And also, I'll never forget, do you remember the Goldman Facebook?
00:12:22.180 | Oh, yeah. I got mine still.
00:12:25.460 | It was like, I do too. So it was obviously Facebook before Facebook, but it was that
00:12:30.020 | pamphlet.
00:12:31.020 | Yes, fascinating.
00:12:32.020 | It had everybody's picture and where they went to school. And the HR department made
00:12:37.380 | it I'm sure because it wanted to encourage, "Oh, you went to Penn. This kid went to Penn.
00:12:43.220 | Invite them out for a coffee. Mentor them." To kind of encourage community. But I'll never
00:12:48.180 | forget the first week on the desk, the guys were ranking the women on Excel, who was the
00:12:53.540 | hottest and who had the biggest boobs and who had the longest legs and all that kind
00:12:56.860 | of stuff. And again, I was just like, "What is this crazy world?" But I was so focused
00:13:02.420 | on ignoring it. My parents were of the generation of you getting good with the company, you
00:13:07.820 | stay with them for life, you get the brass watch after 30 years, you get the pension,
00:13:12.940 | all that kind of thing. So for me, it was, "Jamie, ignore the nonsense. Just focus on
00:13:17.740 | the work." And I definitely felt like an unlikely hire at that firm. I came without connections.
00:13:23.860 | I came without market knowledge. I legitimately, I still have it on my bookshelf, Wall Street
00:13:29.100 | for Dummies, that I was reading during training to catch up with all the kids who had been
00:13:34.340 | investing in their own stock portfolios since middle school and high school. And that kind
00:13:39.300 | of, "I'm going to work hard, put my head down," worked for a while. And I was this kind of
00:13:45.460 | grinder who just grinded it out. I was the first one in, the last one out. And it worked
00:13:51.420 | and I was recognized. And so I made VP. And that was the inflection point where, I know
00:13:59.200 | you know this, but VP is where a lot of people just stay. At Goldman Sachs, eventually you
00:14:05.320 | make VP. But now the question is, are you a VP lifer or do you then go on? And so I
00:14:11.820 | made VP as expected after five years at the firm. And then I was tapped to be a manager,
00:14:17.700 | which is kind of that first acknowledgement, "You know what? You can be more than a VP.
00:14:22.420 | You could be a managing director or I dare say a partner someday." And that's when I
00:14:26.700 | found Sam that the white noise became more targeted toward me. Because then I was seen
00:14:33.580 | as a threat. Before that, I was just this kind of worker bee, working on the side, keeping
00:14:40.460 | my head down. And that's when I felt that things became a little more targeted toward
00:14:45.020 | me. And that's when it got tougher.
00:14:47.500 | I see. Yeah. I mean, because there's only so few spots, it becomes more and more political
00:14:52.220 | at the higher you go.
00:14:53.820 | That's right. That's right. And that exactly is when I learned where, okay, from day one
00:15:01.620 | through VP, I like to think I did well because I had a head for numbers. I was smart. I was
00:15:07.780 | really good with clients and I worked my butt off. I lived and died by Goldman. But then
00:15:14.620 | in order to make it to the next level, I felt like one of the reasons why I did well is
00:15:19.340 | because I was really good at looking the other way and keeping my mouth shut. And that's
00:15:24.060 | when that element started.
00:15:26.180 | Yeah, that dilemma.
00:15:28.220 | That was kind of from VP. And then I made VP in '04. I made MD in '12. And then I left
00:15:35.820 | in '16. So that kind of second half of my career, second or two-thirds back end of my
00:15:42.660 | career was a lot more about putting up and shutting up.
00:15:46.540 | Yeah. No, I hear you.
00:15:48.020 | And kind of dealing with things that were directed toward me and then perpetuating that
00:15:53.580 | negative culture by not helping others.
00:15:57.540 | It must be tough because as you rise in the ranks, the compensation gets higher. Can you
00:16:03.220 | give us, the listeners, a range of what a VP makes and then an MD and then a partner
00:16:08.980 | MD?
00:16:09.980 | Yeah. And now I'm going to tell you, Sam, I was not paid as well as my peers, my male
00:16:16.820 | peers. I know those guys made twice and three times what I made. So it's interesting. When
00:16:23.100 | my book came out, the Post put an article up about my book. And so I said, "You know
00:16:29.060 | what? I'm going to go into the belly of the beast and look at all the Instagram comments
00:16:33.140 | about my book because that's going to be..." And a lot of people were like, "Too bad. So
00:16:37.180 | sad. She made a lot of money." And I did make a lot of money, Sam. But the truth is, the
00:16:41.140 | guys made twice and three times and dealt with half the junk that I did.
00:16:45.700 | I would say in the beginning, it was a little more reasonable in terms of women and men.
00:16:52.700 | So as an analyst, making 100 to 200, as an associate, then breaking to 200 to 300. As
00:17:04.900 | a VP, I was making in around 500, the kind of 350 to the 500 range. And then when I made
00:17:15.460 | manager, that's when I hit the million mark. And then I remained there throughout my tenure,
00:17:22.460 | kind of either side of a million, whereas a lot of my male colleagues who were doing
00:17:27.820 | the same job then were at like two, two and a half. And then the partner in my area, my
00:17:33.740 | guess is was at least six.
00:17:35.740 | I see. Got it.
00:17:37.700 | Any given in every good world. But a great story talking about comp was, I was telling
00:17:45.300 | you how I made VP, but then I got that promotion to be a manager. And I'll never forget, I
00:17:52.340 | was a manager. So as a manager at Goldman, you obviously receive comp from your manager,
00:17:56.740 | but then you give comp. And so I was able to see what everyone on my new team had made
00:18:02.940 | the year before, because comp is always discussed in a year over year. You made this last year,
00:18:10.860 | you made this this year. And what I observed, Sam, was all the new guys working for me had
00:18:16.220 | made more than me the year before, which is so ironic because I essentially was the top
00:18:22.780 | performer because I got the manager. But yet they were all making more than I am by 200,
00:18:29.220 | 300, 400,000. In fact, this one guy made, you know, the year I was promoted, I made
00:18:37.220 | $1 more than he did. I made a million and he made $999,999 because I had to make a dollar
00:18:45.260 | more than he did. But ironically, you know, he wasn't doing as well as me, but yet, you
00:18:50.700 | know, our comp was exactly the same. And the year before his comp was way better than mine.
00:18:55.740 | And when you see behind the curtain, the compensation structure, because that is so fascinating
00:19:00.020 | to me, at least, because I never got to see behind the curtain. Did you confront your
00:19:06.100 | boss and say, "Why is it the way it is?" Or did you have to be like, grateful and just
00:19:11.380 | thank you very much for paying me what you're paying me?
00:19:13.700 | >> So, yes and yes. So, I would never, I never fought for myself. I never said, "I know
00:19:23.300 | so and so." Like in my book, I never said, "Jerry and Vito are making two and I'm only
00:19:28.380 | making 1.2 or they're making two and a half." Because technically, you don't know what they
00:19:31.900 | make. But they would throw around. And what happened was Jerry and Vito would talk to
00:19:36.340 | me about their comp thinking we were all making the same.
00:19:39.020 | >> Ah.
00:19:40.020 | >> And I never saw what they made. But they would just tell me like, "Oh, you know." And
00:19:45.500 | I would know what some of their reports made. But I only knew for a fact what was on my
00:19:51.020 | team. And I saw time and time again, the guys making more than the women. And I would say
00:19:57.220 | stuff. But to a point, Sam, because then the comment would always be, "Hey, listen, don't
00:20:02.700 | piss me off. I'm working on your numbers too."
00:20:05.780 | >> Right. Right.
00:20:06.780 | >> So I'm embarrassed to say I would fight but then always back down. And the other big
00:20:12.540 | thing with Compact Goldman was in those meetings were well, not only men versus women, but
00:20:19.860 | like the single women always got paid less than the men married with the stay at home
00:20:25.860 | --
00:20:26.860 | >> Right.
00:20:27.860 | >> -- spouse with kids.
00:20:28.860 | >> You mentioned that in the book.
00:20:29.860 | >> Which would drive me crazy because Goldman talks about being a meritocracy.
00:20:33.420 | >> Mm-hmm.
00:20:34.420 | >> It should have no bearing on anything. It should be about performance. It should
00:20:38.460 | be on upward trajectory. And time and time again, I saw that kind of stuff as a factor.
00:20:45.100 | >> You know, meritocracy, I think we all believe in a certain level of meritocracy. But I can
00:20:50.660 | see those conversations playing out where, you know, you wrote in the book, "Well, XYZ
00:20:55.140 | fellow has a wife and two kids and this person is single. We can't let the guy with the two
00:20:59.900 | kids go because they're depending on him." So I can see the difficulty when it comes
00:21:05.860 | down to who to let go or who to pay down.
00:21:09.100 | >> Yeah.
00:21:10.100 | >> But it's tough being a manager.
00:21:12.420 | >> And the problem is though, Sam, there were so few women who ever got to the point --
00:21:17.220 | >> Yeah.
00:21:18.220 | >> -- of being married and having kids because they would all leave.
00:21:22.020 | >> Mm, right.
00:21:23.020 | >> So, you know, you very rarely -- like, I was one of the few women there who was married
00:21:29.820 | and had kids because a lot of these up-and-coming women, you know, would leave because they
00:21:35.460 | didn't see the opportunity before they even had a chance to have dependents.
00:21:38.900 | >> Mm-hmm.
00:21:39.900 | >> So it's like, you know, and, you know, bottom line, it's like it's just not the way
00:21:46.020 | it should be. I mean, because those decisions were made not only in compensation but also
00:21:50.500 | when they were talking about retention.
00:21:52.500 | >> Yeah.
00:21:53.500 | >> And letting people go.
00:21:54.500 | >> Right.
00:21:55.500 | >> So --
00:21:56.500 | >> Right. You had, was it three children while you were at Goldman? Or was it four?
00:22:01.500 | >> I actually left with four.
00:22:02.860 | >> You left with four. And were you able to take maternity leave for several months for
00:22:07.980 | each child?
00:22:08.980 | >> Yes.
00:22:09.980 | >> And how did you feel during that time? And what was your calculus regarding how much
00:22:14.600 | maternity leave to take and how much maternity leave did you actually get?
00:22:19.780 | >> So Goldman used to be four months, but then they changed it to 16 weeks. I took my
00:22:26.700 | maternity leave, but I was working every day.
00:22:29.260 | >> Got it.
00:22:30.260 | >> So although I was not like on the day-to-day, you know, doing the trades and, you know,
00:22:37.780 | the actual day-to-day function, I was always on manager meetings. I did compensation for
00:22:44.500 | maternity leave. So I definitely felt compelled to, although I took the time to make sure
00:22:51.740 | my finger was on the pulse of what was going on at the desk because I wanted a job to go
00:22:56.180 | back to when I came back.
00:22:58.660 | So although I took my full time, it wasn't like a real break. I mean, don't get me wrong,
00:23:04.380 | it was a break. I wasn't commuting four hours a day. I mean, I was with my kids, but always
00:23:12.260 | plugged in on my email always.
00:23:14.060 | >> Right.
00:23:15.060 | >> Because you never had that sense of safety at that place.
00:23:18.460 | >> Yeah.
00:23:19.460 | >> You were always ready for someone to kind of eat your lunch while you were gone and
00:23:23.780 | take your opportunity away.
00:23:25.380 | >> Right. Yeah. And that's such a disconcerting feeling. You know, I look from the outside
00:23:30.420 | now and is it how letting go of a woman on parental leave after she comes back, wouldn't
00:23:41.940 | that nowadays be seen as really playing with fire where you could just face a lot of backlash
00:23:48.460 | from other colleagues or the woman herself?
00:23:51.140 | >> I mean, it happens all the time. And I think the key is it's like Goldman is very,
00:23:59.940 | very good at creating the narratives they need to create in order to justify their actions.
00:24:07.940 | And I just know this because I worked incredibly closely with the employee relations attorneys
00:24:14.620 | who helped navigate the separation packages. Like literally their job was to be like, can
00:24:20.420 | we get sued?
00:24:21.780 | >> Yes. Yeah.
00:24:23.140 | >> And Goldman was always very good leveraging their review system, which is highly, highly
00:24:28.060 | flawed to kind of paint the narrative they needed to paint. So I'm sure women did sue
00:24:35.020 | along the way. I mean, you know, the class action with 2500 women versus Goldman Sachs
00:24:40.420 | just settled last month.
00:24:42.300 | >> Oh, I didn't know that.
00:24:43.300 | >> So there's definitely been a lot of lawsuits, but I don't think enough to keep them from
00:24:49.580 | kind of continuing that behavior. So one would think, but I think, listen, they're an Atwell
00:24:54.420 | employee, bonuses are discretionary, you know? So there are a lot of ways they can kind of,
00:25:01.780 | it's very hard to prove a lot of these things. And Goldman lawyers are very, very good and
00:25:06.820 | very, very savvy. Not only their inside counsel, but then their outside counsel.
00:25:12.460 | >> What was the compensation structure of a managing director in terms of base salary
00:25:16.660 | and then the discretionary bonus?
00:25:19.260 | >> So base salary actually changed after TARP. So I was a managing director after the crisis,
00:25:27.380 | but if you remember the financial crisis of 2008, one of the big things that came up in
00:25:32.780 | DC was, "Oh my God, these bankers, their bonuses are too big." So what did Goldman do? And
00:25:38.100 | the street, they raised up everyone's salary. So partner salaries were 500,000, managing
00:25:45.100 | director salaries, depending on when you made managing director, were 400 or 500. Because
00:25:51.180 | here's the rub, when TARP happened and they raised the salaries, the salaries were based
00:25:58.700 | on total compensation. So there was some VPs who had a higher salary than I did as an MD
00:26:05.540 | because back in 2007, they were making more than I did at that time. Do you know what
00:26:11.700 | I mean? So I would say base salary for MDs started at 400, partners were 500, and then
00:26:19.580 | VPs could be anywhere from 250 to 500.
00:26:23.220 | >> That's pretty good.
00:26:24.220 | >> Depending on how much, well, 100%. I mean, that's why I talk in my book, Death Row. I
00:26:29.420 | mean, some people are at Goldman right now, they don't get a bonus anymore.
00:26:33.340 | >> They just get a huge salary.
00:26:35.340 | >> But for $450,000, hey, you know what? You'll stay.
00:26:39.340 | >> Yeah, it's good cash flow.
00:26:40.820 | >> Good cash flow. Every other week, you're getting that money.
00:26:45.140 | >> Right. So what would you tell maybe younger listeners? Let's say you're in college, and
00:26:51.540 | it seems like Goldman hires people from some of the top colleges, right? And they seem
00:26:58.140 | to be a little bit idealistic, these students. They go into college thinking they want to
00:27:02.340 | save the world, change humanity, do nonprofit, volunteer, but once they start getting dangled
00:27:08.180 | with these nice functions and salaries, they seem to forget the world and say, "Let's try
00:27:13.100 | to make as much money as possible." So let's say you were interviewing a female from Byn
00:27:18.700 | Mar as well, who you look at her resume and you're like, "Well, you don't seem to have
00:27:22.900 | a lot of finance back or anything. You were saving animals in some countries. Why Goldman
00:27:29.140 | now?" I mean, I think we know that the money is the allure and there's the prestige factor,
00:27:33.620 | but how would you talk to young folks nowadays about joining a firm like Goldman?
00:27:39.380 | >> So I think the big joke was when Goldman Sachs came to Bryn Mawr's campus, which is
00:27:45.740 | like liberal arts, most women go on to graduate school or nonprofit, and they painted this
00:27:58.060 | amazing picture. Their tagline was "Minds Wide Open." We want all different backgrounds.
00:28:06.180 | My thing to these women today are let's just keep our eyes wide open and get very clear
00:28:12.220 | about what this experience can be and what it might not be. And listen, there is nothing
00:28:19.260 | wrong with being a capitalist and wanting to make money, right?
00:28:21.620 | >> Yeah, we're in America. >> It's like I think of careers as like a
00:28:25.140 | pie. You have your slice of compensation, you have your slice of passion, you have your
00:28:30.980 | slice for flexibility, right? So what you make on the job, how excited are you to do
00:28:35.460 | the job, and how much time do you have outside the job to run marathons or start nonprofits
00:28:41.900 | or see friends and family, right? And it's like you got to be clear that Goldman, the
00:28:47.060 | pie is going to be pretty skewed. And if you accept that, then God bless you. Go have a
00:28:53.300 | career but know that you could always redesign that pie.
00:28:58.100 | The problem for me, Sam, was I went in there and then I was so, I succumbed so much to
00:29:06.420 | their like Jedi mind tricking that I was nothing without them, nothing without their money,
00:29:10.980 | nothing without their name. And I thought I couldn't leave, that I thought I wouldn't
00:29:15.820 | be successful anywhere else. I thought I couldn't make money anywhere else. Goldman has this
00:29:21.020 | really great way, at least for me, to think of money as like a scarce resource and time
00:29:29.660 | as an infinite resource. Oh, you're not happy about your bonus this year? Don't worry, it'll
00:29:34.220 | even out next year. You didn't make empty next year, there's always next year, the next
00:29:39.340 | year. As if like these days we just have an unlimited supply of them. Where in reality,
00:29:46.920 | you can make money anywhere, you only have so much time. So to me, it's really making
00:29:52.700 | sure these young people are really clear on that and feeling the confidence and the autonomy
00:30:00.180 | to make the change if that value proposition doesn't work for them after a year or two.
00:30:06.180 | Right. Oh, I think your journey is great because you were able to see what it was like to become
00:30:11.140 | an MD. I tried to become an MD at Credit Suisse and I tried for one year and I failed. They
00:30:16.460 | were like, "Well, next year." I was like, "Oh, it's okay. I don't want to stick around
00:30:19.020 | next year. Life is too short." So I think it's great that you lasted so long and you
00:30:24.660 | could see the entire spectrum. Now, when you left, did you quit? Did you quit? So that
00:30:32.340 | means that you didn't get a separation package. I got nothing. And when you thought about
00:30:37.700 | that, in retrospect, do you think that was the right move or did you think, "Well, maybe
00:30:43.220 | you should have stuck around and figured out your next colleague to take over."
00:30:48.380 | No. It was the right move.
00:30:50.940 | And talk about that.
00:30:52.500 | Then when, Sam? Then when? Then there would be more stock that needed. I mean, technically,
00:30:57.460 | I was a year away from my retirement age.
00:31:00.140 | What's that?
00:31:01.140 | At Goldman, they had the rule of 60, age plus years of service.
00:31:04.420 | Oh, yeah. That's right. And what would you get if you got that?
00:31:07.060 | So I had the right years of service, but I was the wrong age.
00:31:11.220 | Okay.
00:31:12.220 | Right? So I needed to be 41. Well, it all depends. I was 40 at 18, so I was 58. I needed
00:31:19.660 | to be 41 at 19. But I said, "You know what? It's never like you got to walk away sometime."
00:31:27.220 | And I'm so glad I did because ... And I've heard this on some of your other podcasts.
00:31:32.180 | It's like, "How much do you really need, Sam? How much do you really need?" And I felt like
00:31:36.900 | I was almost making up things, creating things I needed in order to stay. And really, I just
00:31:45.620 | had to cut ties.
00:31:46.620 | Interesting.
00:31:47.620 | And I knew ... My last year, I had finally had the guts to really whistleblow on something
00:31:53.900 | bad that had happened, and they were out for me.
00:31:57.260 | Sure.
00:31:58.260 | And I said, "I am not giving them." So I told you before about death row. Those are the
00:32:03.620 | people who are treated poorly and never leave. I was like, "I have worked too hard on my
00:32:08.140 | career, and I have worked too hard on my presence at that firm and my reputation to be put on
00:32:14.980 | death row. I am leaving on a high note with my head held high. I don't care about the
00:32:20.900 | money. I'm leaving on the table."
00:32:22.540 | Got it.
00:32:23.540 | My pride was worth more than that, and I've never regretted that. Because if they had
00:32:27.020 | already started to make my life miserable, it would have been even worse.
00:32:30.140 | Got it. Well, that's good. That's good you feel that way.
00:32:34.900 | I guess since you quit, how did the first several months feel when bonus time came and
00:32:41.060 | you get that thrill and excitement of, "Okay, here's going to be the nice big one, juicy
00:32:45.620 | one, after all my years of performance." How did it feel not getting that first several
00:32:50.140 | paychecks and that bonus?
00:32:53.180 | I'll never forget bonus day 2017. My daughter was a year and a half. We were hanging out.
00:33:05.780 | She was playing with the pots and pans, and she went into my little bar fridge. I wasn't
00:33:11.380 | paying attention. Got out a can of cola, like Pepsi or Coke, and it splattered all over the
00:33:18.580 | kitchen. I mean, it splattered on the ceiling. I remember just being like, "Oh my God." Literally
00:33:23.820 | on bonus day, I was cleaning up soda.
00:33:27.700 | Don't get me wrong. There has been a lot of highs and lows since I left in terms of, "Do
00:33:34.780 | I wish I had stayed that extra year?" Absolutely not. But do I wish that the environment could
00:33:42.460 | have been better for a woman like me with four kids to continue making that money? Yes.
00:33:48.900 | It bothers me a little bit that those bad actors from my book are still on Wall Street,
00:33:55.300 | still ringing the register, and that for someone like me, it was too much of a difficult environment
00:34:03.740 | for me to stay. That bothers me sometimes. That being said, I'm glad I left, but it still
00:34:09.300 | frustrates me because you know what, Sam? That furthers the gender divide in terms of
00:34:14.340 | pay disparity, and that further divides power in our country because let's face it, money's
00:34:20.300 | power. So I resent the fact that there wasn't room for a woman like me with four kids at
00:34:26.580 | that firm. But that being said, I'm still glad I left.
00:34:31.380 | Good. Four kids. Wow. I have two kids and I'm dying here. What do you think is harder,
00:34:36.580 | being an MD during crunch time or raising two children, let alone four children?
00:34:44.980 | I don't know what it's like to raise two children.
00:34:48.300 | At one point, you did raise two children. Yes. I was raising two children for a while.
00:34:53.820 | Three came quickly. Listen, I think that the emotional, grueling part of Goldman was really,
00:35:08.260 | really hard. It was a constant battle. You were constantly stressed, constantly questioning
00:35:17.020 | yourself, constantly paranoid. You know, my first week at Goldman, the partner in our
00:35:22.060 | department said, "Welcome to Goldman Sachs, home of the most paranoid people in the world."
00:35:28.340 | That's what it takes to put up with this environment. So, you know, listen, there's nothing harder
00:35:35.380 | than growing humans and less about their bodily needs, but just growing good characters in
00:35:43.780 | this crazy world. And I take that job incredibly seriously. And I think it is fraught with
00:35:50.580 | challenges. But from my mental health perspective, I do that job with a clear mind and full confidence
00:35:58.580 | and confidence that I know what I'm doing. At Goldman, I worked very hard, but they always
00:36:04.580 | were Jedi mind tricking me. And I was always in a place of anxiety and paranoia. So I'm
00:36:12.140 | much happier now with my kids as my focus. So it's kind of hard to describe. I think
00:36:19.260 | that it's a hard job raising kids. But I think that when you're working in a toxic environment,
00:36:24.860 | that's just the worst.
00:36:25.940 | Got it. You're in the New York City area, Jersey, New York City. And I was there for
00:36:32.020 | a couple of years. And I know there's a lot of type A grinders, go, go, go. How do you
00:36:39.500 | think people realize when enough is enough? You know, how do people get off the mill?
00:36:46.140 | Because there seems to be this constant anxiety. And it's talked about a lot in a lot of publications
00:36:50.260 | about high income earning households with children in big cities like New York, San
00:36:54.700 | Francisco, who feel constant anxiety and angst that their children aren't going to get the
00:37:00.420 | same opportunities because there's so much competition. Can you discuss how you feel
00:37:05.700 | about this whole situation and what you see for the future of your children? What do you
00:37:10.500 | think is ideal for them?
00:37:13.780 | So I refuse to buy in to this road to nowhere. I refuse. And when I say that is like, in
00:37:25.500 | my town, I'm in the New York metropolitan area. Kids have been doing Kumans since they
00:37:30.820 | were three years old.
00:37:31.820 | I have no idea what that is, by the way.
00:37:33.860 | Oh, it's this intensive math and reading program. I mean, no offense to Kumans. I think it's
00:37:40.220 | wonderful. You know, it's a program, but like these parents are grooming their kids, starting,
00:37:46.700 | I mean, opening nonprofits for them at the age of five, you know, doing all this stuff.
00:37:53.100 | I am not a buyer that that's going to make a difference when they're 18. I'm still a
00:37:58.020 | buyer of you're a good person. You work hard and you have the ability to connect and talk
00:38:04.420 | with people. Those are the most important. I mean, don't get me wrong. I want that and
00:38:09.740 | good grades.
00:38:10.740 | Sure.
00:38:11.740 | I always say to my kids, if I had to choose, I want you to be like the decent human. And
00:38:17.460 | I refuse to buy into this world where, you know, grades and scores trump character. I
00:38:27.100 | refuse to buy into that world. That's not a world I want to live in. So, you know, in
00:38:32.460 | my family, school is incredibly important. Education is incredibly important. Grades
00:38:37.740 | are incredibly important, but not at the cost of their character, both by being an unkind
00:38:46.140 | person or being a stressed out shell.
00:38:49.780 | 14, you know, where I hear kids are throwing up before tests because, you know, because
00:38:56.380 | their parents said that if they don't make the accelerated program, they're going to
00:39:00.220 | be in trouble. I don't believe that that is a good, it's the right environment to grow
00:39:10.980 | decent humans.
00:39:12.540 | Yeah. I think back to your book, also your background, you know, you said your parents
00:39:18.060 | come from humble beginnings and my parents, just middle class folks who worked at the
00:39:22.500 | government and I feel like we've been able to grow our careers and make it and have some
00:39:30.100 | level of financial independence. And I do wonder though, I'm just trying to reflect
00:39:35.220 | if we are thinking about luxury beliefs because we have financial security that our children,
00:39:42.380 | you know, they don't need to get those straight A's or great SAT scores or whatever because
00:39:47.660 | they're good. We've got insurance that will take care of them in case they fall. And I
00:39:51.860 | wonder, is this the from rice patty field to rice patty field in three generations mentality
00:39:58.820 | where we're just like, "Oh, you know, it's okay. Take it easier." I'm just trying to
00:40:04.180 | think about whether we are not as hardcore as our parents were when we were growing up.
00:40:11.540 | Well, it's funny. Like I think I'm kind of hardcore in that my two daughters turned 14.
00:40:18.420 | They're working this summer.
00:40:19.420 | Okay.
00:40:20.420 | They are working.
00:40:21.420 | Yeah.
00:40:22.420 | One is making bubble tea at a Korean fried chicken place.
00:40:26.660 | All right.
00:40:27.660 | And one is scooping caramel corn. And in fact, just the other day, I went to Dunkin Donuts
00:40:35.140 | with one of my twins and we bought two large like refreshers and it came to 10 bucks. And
00:40:42.260 | I looked at her and said, "You know, that's an hour worth of scooping caramel corn."
00:40:45.780 | Yeah.
00:40:46.780 | She's like, "I get it." So, you know, I am not raising trust fund kids. They are not
00:40:52.900 | trust fund kids. I mean, my parents didn't grow up in plumbing, you know, with plumbing.
00:40:59.260 | My husband works now. I am working part time now. But like I do not see us with like generational
00:41:06.880 | wealth that my kids never have to work. They're going to have to work. And so to me, I think
00:41:12.700 | it's yes and, it's grades and knowing how to scoop caramel corn.
00:41:18.580 | Right.
00:41:19.580 | So I think it's got to be a both thing.
00:41:21.580 | Yeah.
00:41:22.580 | I mean, I've been through this and I think my kids feel incredibly secure. They have
00:41:25.860 | food security. They have housing security. They have clothing security. I mean, by no
00:41:31.100 | means. I mean, they are living a really, just the fact that they have a good education,
00:41:34.740 | live in a safe town and have food to eat. They feel really good. But it's like they
00:41:38.620 | also have to understand what it means to work. Because honestly, Sam, who doesn't want to
00:41:44.380 | work?
00:41:45.380 | Mm-hmm.
00:41:46.380 | Like, you know, time and money. When you have too much of both, bad things happen.
00:41:51.260 | Mm-hmm.
00:41:52.260 | So it's like, I want my kids working. I want my kids to be able to support themselves,
00:41:57.820 | not rely on anybody but themselves. And I will give them the education and the experiences
00:42:03.100 | to launch them to do that. But they're going to have to do that because what's the alternative?
00:42:08.700 | Right. Well, you mentioned generational wealth and that's a subject that I have touched
00:42:13.620 | upon before. What do you think is the definition, your definition of generational wealth?
00:42:19.860 | I mean, to me, generational wealth is when you literally have a $10 million trust fund
00:42:26.780 | on your 21st birthday. And you have the interest off that that you never have to work. I mean,
00:42:34.380 | that to me is true generational wealth.
00:42:36.860 | Okay.
00:42:37.860 | I mean, certainly when my husband and I die, we'll have something nice to give to our kids
00:42:42.580 | as a boost. But like, you know, and I am one of the very few that are going to be able
00:42:50.500 | to educate their kids and them not have debt. That's going to be their, they're going to
00:42:56.420 | be so fortunate going into this world without debt. That's my gift to them. But short of
00:43:03.140 | that, you know, it's not like there's a trust fund they're living off of. So to me, generational
00:43:08.700 | wealth is kind of a trust fund situation. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high there.
00:43:15.020 | And I'm definitely privileged because like I said, I will pay for their education, which
00:43:20.220 | is a lot more than most people. So they're coming into this world with privilege, but
00:43:25.340 | not generational wealth.
00:43:26.820 | Got it. I don't think you're far off on the 10 million because I ran a multi-thousand
00:43:32.180 | person survey to say, what is generational wealth? The number one vote actually is 10
00:43:37.220 | million plus followed by 5 million. Those are the choices. Then I did 3 million, 2 million,
00:43:42.500 | 1 million. And that makes sense for higher cost of living areas, about 10 million. Because
00:43:46.860 | you can earn actually now with 5% treasury bond yields, 500,000 off 10 million invested
00:43:51.900 | risk-free.
00:43:52.900 | And again, it's all, Sam, what do you need? And, you know, going back to, you know, my
00:43:58.860 | Goldman days, like I never bought into the things. I mean, I was a laughingstock because
00:44:06.580 | I showed up on my first day with a suit from TJ Maxx and shoes from Payless. And the year
00:44:12.460 | I made MD, you know, my friend at Goldman's, I go treat yourself to something nice. I went
00:44:17.180 | to Marshall's and I bought myself a puffer jacket to a hundred bucks. So like things
00:44:21.500 | never did it for me. And I have no judgments. Some people, things do it for them. Some people
00:44:27.900 | love handbags. To me, I'm fine going to Coach Outlet for 180 bucks. Some people really think
00:44:34.600 | of their Chanel bags as a work of art. So to me, things have never done it for me. So
00:44:40.340 | like for me to leave and not have to work is yes, it's a gift because I made a lot of
00:44:46.380 | money, but it's also because I don't have that lifestyle. I don't have to feed the beast.
00:44:51.620 | Yeah, feed the beast.
00:44:52.620 | There's so many people in those big areas need to feed. They need the private schools.
00:44:57.940 | They need the luxury cars. They need the private jets. They need the three vacation homes.
00:45:02.140 | I don't have a beast to feed other than my stop and shop bill.
00:45:06.900 | Right, right, right. Now, yeah, the burn as they say, high burn rates for folks who work
00:45:12.020 | on Wall Street. So what if your daughters went to college and Goldman Sachs courted
00:45:17.740 | them? Would you want them to work at Goldman Sachs?
00:45:23.260 | I'd really want them to do what they wanted to do. You know, I mean, you know, my parents,
00:45:29.380 | I really wanted to be a social worker and my parents and I love them and I understand
00:45:34.980 | where they were coming from. They said, no, like you're not going to make $20,000 a year.
00:45:40.140 | Like go have a job, make your money, then go make $20,000 a year. You know, I appreciate
00:45:46.060 | that they were coming from a place where they did not have the security. I mean, they didn't
00:45:51.580 | even have plumbing. You know, they had outhouses when they were growing up. So, um, so for
00:45:57.180 | me, because of what I've done in my generation, you know, I want to make it very clear to
00:46:01.980 | my kids. This is what, you know, my parents never gave me a good education on money, except
00:46:08.780 | that I always felt like we didn't have enough. Right. But it's like, even with my little
00:46:13.860 | anecdote with Dunkin Donuts, I want my kids to understand this is what a home costs. This
00:46:20.100 | is what an apartment is safe area costs. And it starts with getting a job and an hourly
00:46:24.940 | wage. And then you say, Hmm, do I want those Lululemon pants? And I have to work 10 hours
00:46:30.220 | in front of a hot thing of caramel corn. You know, when you start to really decide what's
00:46:36.540 | important and what's not, you know, to me, a sweater is a sweater, leggings or leggings.
00:46:41.260 | It doesn't matter what the name says on them. Um, so to me, it's getting very clear on what
00:46:46.500 | kind of life they want to lead, what their passions are. And it's all about that money,
00:46:52.140 | that flexibility pie. And you know what? I actually spoke with a woman from Columbia
00:46:56.900 | who's starting at Goldman next month and said, I read your book. I don't want to go. And
00:47:01.420 | I said, no, you should go see for yourself. And you know, she said, well, I have a lot
00:47:05.480 | of student debt. I'm like, well, make a contract. You're going to go work there for a year.
00:47:10.620 | And then you see what happens again. And you work for another year. And maybe at some point
00:47:13.820 | you feel like I've saved enough. I paid down my debt. Now I want to follow my passion.
00:47:19.180 | Right. So there's like, I think the most important thing is to tell these kids you have flexibility
00:47:24.820 | and you can change. So it's like, if that's what you want to do and that's what rings
00:47:28.860 | your bell, go for it. And if it's not what rings your bell, but you want to really save
00:47:32.820 | money because you want to fund a startup, then suck it up for two years. It's your choice.
00:47:39.020 | It's your choice. And if you want to do something and you want to work for a non-profit and
00:47:44.180 | you're not going to have a lot of money, well, you might have to live at home for a while
00:47:48.300 | and you're welcome to. But if you want to live in the swanky apartment, then you might
00:47:54.380 | have to make different decisions. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like being practical does
00:48:00.500 | make sense and accumulating enough wealth to have some security so you can do more of
00:48:05.980 | what you want. I mean, that's what I did for 13 years. I worked in finance and then I decided,
00:48:09.740 | hey, let's go focus on Financial Samurai and write a book as well. Seems like it's a more
00:48:14.980 | helpful thing to do for society to help people with their finances for free.
00:48:19.300 | 100%. And you're more fulfilled and you're probably not making what you made a credit
00:48:24.580 | twist, but maybe you are, but maybe you weren't that first year. Right?
00:48:29.100 | I am making more than I ever thought possible, but I have low expectations and I'm happy.
00:48:33.980 | Yeah, it's just kind of crazy. Nowadays, I think about it as a parent, what is the future
00:48:40.060 | of work going to be like? Is it college and then a job or is it you don't have to go to
00:48:45.100 | college? You can create a brand online and make money that way. There's so many infinite
00:48:49.460 | ways to make money now. I hope more people are open minded to that.
00:48:53.860 | And the trade business, you know, one of my husband's best friends is an electrician and
00:48:58.220 | does incredibly well for himself. Oh, yeah.
00:49:00.780 | Incredibly well for himself. So there's so many different ways to do it. And really,
00:49:07.900 | I think at the end of the day, it's getting clear of what you really need. And if you're
00:49:14.540 | in a situation where you're feeding the beast, is the output worth what you're getting? And
00:49:21.420 | I guess for me, the output, the money I was getting wasn't worth what it was costing me
00:49:27.940 | emotionally with my husband, with my kids. Right. Have your kids read your book?
00:49:36.780 | I have a seven and an 11. Oh, she just turned eight. So I have an eight and 11 year olds.
00:49:41.580 | They're like, listen, the whole thing. My 14 year olds haven't. But they basically know
00:49:47.860 | what the big mic drop moments were, which was, you know, almost getting a divorce from
00:49:53.100 | my husband because of an infidelity. And, you know, we're very clear about it. And it's
00:49:58.820 | like marriage isn't easy. No. You know, if people have been married long enough, stuff
00:50:04.420 | happens. Yes. You know, there is some sort of breach of trust. Maybe someone has a gambling
00:50:09.980 | problem, a spending problem, an addiction or infidelity. And so to me, it's all about
00:50:17.140 | what you make of it. And like for me and my marriage, and I said to the girls, I say,
00:50:22.300 | you know, Daddy and I got married. I was 28 and I was focused on registering for China
00:50:27.380 | and glassware and all that nonsense, not even understanding what marriage was about. And
00:50:33.780 | when we almost got a divorce, it was like we can play this three ways. We can divorce.
00:50:38.700 | We can pretend nothing's wrong and muscle through and get divorced when our youngest
00:50:42.960 | goes off to college or we can rebuild it and start again. And so I felt like I almost recommitted
00:50:49.300 | to my marriage at 38, where I really understood what it means to be married. Yeah. And that's
00:50:56.780 | real and that's life, you know. And I can't tell you how many people I've heard from Sam
00:51:01.900 | who've read my book who have said, Jamie, I wish I had had that conversation with my
00:51:07.260 | wife or my husband because we are divorced now. Because the lifestyle and the money and
00:51:15.860 | the career cost them everything. So although I'm kind of baring my soul, I don't think
00:51:21.100 | my story is that unique. I think it's I think it's a I mean, I was impressed that you shared
00:51:27.420 | that side of the story. And it was very raw. And I thought I really appreciate it. You
00:51:32.340 | know, when you're spending 60 hours a week working around your colleagues and you go
00:51:37.100 | traveling trips, it's just it's an inevitability that you develop these relationships with
00:51:41.620 | people. And you know, who knows? Life is complicated. Listen, you know, I can't tell you I was raised
00:51:50.060 | by an Italian grandmother. I mean, I graduated college with morals, values, like family was
00:51:58.860 | the most important family is the most important thing. And so if it could happen to me, it
00:52:05.820 | could happen to anyone. I think the reason why my husband was able to forgive me is because
00:52:09.900 | he knew me when I was 22. He saw the unraveling of me. He saw what that environment did to
00:52:18.260 | me. And so I think he knew that it wasn't about him. It was about me just grasping at
00:52:27.540 | straws I was so miserable. I was employing all these coping mechanisms just to cope,
00:52:34.060 | just to kind of escape how unhappy I was, when inevitably what I really need to escape
00:52:39.340 | was Goldman Sachs. And you know, once I did that, you know, everything just turned around.
00:52:44.500 | Right. No, that's that's really, really great to hear. You know, as an author, you have
00:52:49.860 | these great characters, and you have these antagonists and protagonists. Have you what
00:52:55.660 | was the decision to? I mean, I guess I know, but I would like to hear from you. What was
00:53:00.060 | your decision to anonymize them? And, you know, if you really wanted to? Well, I think
00:53:06.900 | you do. If you want to change the culture further and help more women. What is the I
00:53:13.900 | guess the thought process regarding outing them and saying, like, these are the people
00:53:19.500 | who did these bad things? I mean, what what would the backlash be, I guess? Yeah. For
00:53:25.540 | me. So the only characters in my book that are the real names are me and my family. I
00:53:33.620 | felt very strongly to anonymize for a couple reasons. One, this book was not about shaming
00:53:40.380 | anyone. Okay, I don't want to ruin any lives. Okay. Because you know what, Sam, just like
00:53:46.580 | my husband forgave me. I show some grace to all the people that wronged me just as I hope
00:53:54.020 | that people I wrong show me grace. When you're in that environment. The it just brings out
00:54:00.060 | the worst in people. Yeah. So it was not about pointing out people. And honestly, if any
00:54:06.420 | of those guys read my book, they know who they are. Sure. Of course. I'm sure they read
00:54:09.980 | your book. My colleagues read the book, they know who those people are. Right. So it was
00:54:14.540 | more about so that was one reason. The other reason is, I actually some of my characters
00:54:19.660 | are composites. Like some of the guys are based on, you know, two of the guys are based
00:54:24.620 | on four or five guys, because as I was writing, you know, you talked about this earlier, as
00:54:29.180 | I was writing the book, I started just reading a couple books a week. And what I realized
00:54:34.940 | I hated about books when there's too many characters. Like, wait, who's that? Like,
00:54:41.180 | you know what, it'll just be easier to track for the reader if I just kind of built. Yeah,
00:54:46.340 | it was kind of for for consumption of the reader. And then also, I'm not shaming them.
00:54:53.700 | And, and you know, it was very important for me when I wrote the book to not only talk
00:54:58.140 | about what was done to me, but what I did. I feel like some I've read a lot of memoirs
00:55:04.260 | in this process. And, and I sometimes feel that some memoirs fall short, and like, don't
00:55:10.900 | really go there. And I was like, you know what, if I'm going to go there, I'm going
00:55:15.220 | to go there. If I'm going to shine a light on what really happens in these organizations,
00:55:19.300 | I have to shine a light as brightly on myself, as I do the other people, because then that
00:55:24.020 | would be disingenuous. And to me, it's like, if I'm going to go there, I'm going to go
00:55:28.620 | there. Yeah. So yeah, that's why I felt. So that's why I felt like I wanted to be very
00:55:36.180 | clear about what I did. And, and I didn't feel it necessary to, to to name names. And
00:55:44.540 | I'll be honest with you, everyone has Vito and Jerry's in their career. Everyone has
00:55:49.620 | people that look like them. Yeah. Again, I feel like as humans, we're more similar than
00:55:55.420 | different. Yeah, like our stories are more similar than different. So I don't think by
00:56:03.100 | not naming them, it if I don't think it changed the effect. Right? No, that's a great answer.
00:56:10.220 | Thanks for sharing that. Because then it also just creates more tension, more drama, more
00:56:14.460 | wars and more he said, she said that is, you know, but I really appreciate that. I didn't
00:56:19.300 | want it to be about that. Yeah. I didn't want to be about, I didn't want it to be about
00:56:26.060 | like dragging people through the mud. I wanted to be about the whole, and again, we were
00:56:33.420 | all part of it, you know, we're all part of it. And like I said, some of the guys who
00:56:37.860 | did some really wretched things to me, it's like, who knows what they were going through,
00:56:42.900 | right? Their marriage was falling apart. Yeah. Who knows if they were on drugs? Who knows
00:56:47.660 | if they were functioning alcoholics? Like, so it's so hard. I, you know, those were not
00:56:53.380 | my the best years of my life. I hope I am not judged for my behavior as a managing director
00:56:58.720 | at Goldman Sachs. And so I think that kind of grace and understanding if I can receive
00:57:05.060 | it from my husband that I have to be able to give it to. Right, right. Fascinating times,
00:57:12.300 | fascinating book. I really love Bully Market. I hope everyone picks it up. It's if you want
00:57:17.260 | a summer book to read on the beach or on the plane. I mean, it is one of the best books
00:57:22.180 | I've ever read. Jamie, thank you so much for your time. It's been really awesome. And I
00:57:27.500 | hope you write more books. I hope this book turns into a TV show or, you know, HBO special.
00:57:33.740 | Let's put it out to the universe. I'm so pleased that you're so enthusiastic about it because,
00:57:38.940 | you know, a lot of people would look at the title and, you know, think, oh, you know,
00:57:43.660 | maybe it's not for me. But it definitely has kind of a novel feel because it's just the
00:57:49.460 | story of, you know, and as we know, you know, nowadays there's such an appetite for real
00:57:55.420 | stories, right? I mean, the documentaries and stuff. It's like who needs to make up
00:57:59.140 | characters in life? We are so rich with, you know, interesting characters who needs fiction.
00:58:06.140 | Yeah. Well, thanks again for your time. And I hope we connect again. Yes, me too. Thank
00:58:11.020 | Thank you.
00:58:12.020 | Okay, thanks.
00:58:13.020 | [END OF RECORDING]
00:58:13.020 | Bye for now.