Hello, everybody. It's Sam from the Financial Samurai podcast. And in this episode, I have a special guest with me, Jamie Fiori Higgins, who is Financial Times 25 Most Influential Women of 2022 and ex-Goldman Sachs Managing Director and author of Bully Market, My Story of Money and Misogyny at Goldman Sachs.

Welcome, Jamie. Thank you. So nice to be here. It's great to be here. I read your book in a matter of days. It was one of the best page-turning books I have ever read. It was similar to like the Da Vinci Code, but for Wall Street. Wow. That's a great compliment.

Thank you. And I'm so impressed with the book, especially as an author myself. I've started to read more books, actually, after writing a book because I appreciate how much goes into a book. How long did it take for you to write this book? And when did it start percolating in your mind?

Well, I left Goldman Sachs in the spring of '16 without any thoughts about writing a book, but I couldn't believe how depressed I was, which was crazy because I left on my own. I left because it was just an untenable environment. But yet, and I don't want to be insensitive with this comment, but it was almost like an abusive relationship that I knew wasn't good for me, but yet I was so depressed that I left it behind.

And that really surprised me because it was all I had wanted. And so I said, "You know what? This is interesting. I need to just write it out and just try to figure out why." And writing isn't therapy, but writing can be therapeutic. Yes. A couple of friends of mine are like, "You should just write some of the stuff that happened," because I was really fortunate to have this sabbatical.

And when I left Goldman, I had four little kids and ages seven and under. And so I threw myself into volunteering. And I was a bit of a unicorn. You don't see a lot of, at least in my area, which is suburban New York City, you don't see a lot of working people stepping out of their career in their forties.

A lot of the moms I know either took a step back a little earlier or kept on working. And so I would tell some anecdotes to people. I'll never forget, I was doing planting, spring planting and I told a mom about how my colleagues had mooed at me like a cow when I went to go to the lactation rooms.

And her incredulous expression, don't get me wrong, I knew it was messed up, but seeing it from her perspective, I was like, "This was such a crazy environment and yet I'm missing it on some weird level." And so I started writing about it. And I'm sure this resonates with you, but I would write for a month and then I would give up on it for a couple months.

And then I would write for a month and I would give up on it for a couple months. And then I made the big error and that was I told people I was writing a book. And so then it would come up like, "Oh, how's that book coming?" And I said, "I got to finish this thing now." So I would say I kind of started it in late 2016, but then I focused on it in earnest in like 2019.

So once I started focusing in on earnest, it took me a couple years to finish. So about two years of like concerted, the big joke was I hired myself to be a writer. It was an unpaid position, but I committed to 20 hours a week. And so once I started 20 hours a week, it took me about two years to do it.

- Got it. No, I totally hear you and empathize on the difficulty of writing a book and starting is you just got to start and commit. Otherwise, it's just so hard. - Yes. It's not going to write itself, right? - Yeah, it's not going to write yourself. - You have to put down and do it.

- So you left in 2016, you finished the book circa 2019, 2020? - It took me about two years. So in earnest, I started the beginning of 2019. I finished in the beginning of 2021. And I got my book deal in the summer of 2021 and it came out in the summer of 2020.

- Oh, wow. Okay. So right in the middle of the pandemic and basically shopped it around. Was it a difficult process? - In some ways, yes. In some ways, no. When I finished the book in the beginning of 2021, I didn't know what I was going to do with it.

I didn't know if it was going to sit in my basement. I didn't know if I was going to self-publish it. I really didn't have these goals of commercial publishing. I mean, of course, that's something an author always dreams about, but it wasn't something I really was intending on.

And then I had taken some writing classes and my writing teacher knew of a freelance editor who worked with an agency. And then, Sam, I mean, I don't want to say embarrassed because I know how hard it is for some. It just came so easy. Like I met this freelance editor and in March, by May I had an agent and by July I had signed with Simon and Schuster.

So that part really came with ease. Then of course, there are all the like mental things that come up like, "Oh my God, am I really going to go through with this and like bare my soul to the world?" Because it's very gutsy, bearing your soul to the world when it's just a manuscript sitting in your basement.

Right. It's another value proposition when you realize that it's going to be made accessible to the public. And that I struggle with a little bit during the process. But then by the time it was published, I had made peace with it to say, "You know what? I really think that the message is worth putting myself out there." It's a very strong message and a very vulnerable and open message.

I think the readers will appreciate how vulnerable and open you are. Just your story about your colleagues saying moo moo when you went to the lactation room, I was thinking to myself, "Wow, at that time what level were you at Goldman?" I was a managing director. You were a managing director and the colleagues who were saying that were what level?

Managing directors. Oh, they were managing directors too. Yeah. Okay. Some were vice presidents. Some were managing directors. Some were vice presidents. But yeah, if you were a VP saying that to an MD, is that not a career limiting move? Not in my world it wasn't. Not in my world it wasn't.

And I think that's the rub that so many of these kind of egregious behaviors went unchecked that it almost became normalized. Yeah. It almost just became that kind of locker room, "Oh, they're just busting chops." Yeah, right. Busting chops. And when that happens, I looked across the desk and everyone had their heads down.

And either they were not paying attention or they just didn't want to see it because it was almost like if I don't acknowledge it and I pretend it's not there, maybe it's not there. I did the same thing, Sam. I endured a lot as a woman at that firm, but I also perpetuate a lot by my silence, by my not speaking up.

And I think you don't speak up for a couple reasons. Number one, because you're afraid to. And number two, because I think to speak up admits that you're part of the problem. And that's a scary thing to admit to. Yeah. I just remember my times. We were actually colleagues.

I was at One New York Plaza on the 49th floor. Were you at One New York Plaza as well? I was. What floor were you on? 48th. 48th. Okay. So I was right one above you. And yeah, Busting chops was the way the world – I remember I was a first year analyst in 1999 and I was told to get coffee.

You go downstairs to the basement to get coffee. And it was like an eight-person order. So it took forever. It was long lines. And I said, "You know what? I'm going to go get a haircut while I wait for my coffee." And so I went to get a haircut and they cut it.

At the barber in the basement? Yeah, at the barber in the basement. Everyone was there, right? Yeah. And so I was like, "All right. I'm going to spend 20 minutes to get the haircut." And then when I got up, man, the barber cut it really high and tight and everybody started busting my chops.

They said, "Oh, Sam. Well, if it grows on company time, I guess you cut it on company time." Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's just this culture that I guess you start getting used to it, right? And if you step out of the culture, you start getting a target under your back.

How does that work? Yeah. Well, it's really ironic because I went to a woman's college. Yeah, Bryn Mawr. It was like Bryn Mawr. And it's no joke when they chant down with the patriarchy. I was in this very extreme environment and then I came to Goldman. And very soon, even the first day when people were locked out of training, it was this very punitive, punishing environment, like hazing.

Yes. And even when I was on the desk, all those things, it just didn't ring true to me. And I remember being like, "This is ridiculous. You're just being dramatic, Jamie. Don't be a drama queen. This is just the way it is on Wall Street. Just get used to it." And in some ways, because I went to this very pro-women, women's feminist college, I thought to myself, "Well, maybe that's not normal.

Maybe this is normal." So in some ways, I think I easily bought into it because I didn't go to a co-ed college. And I thought, "Well, maybe Bryn Mawr was just kind of feeding me an unrealistic view of the world and this is the way it is." And I hate to overuse the word because it's used so much, but it was kind of gaslighting.

Like when I would think, "This doesn't feel right." It's like, "You're just overreacting. This is just how it is on Wall Street." And so you'll look around and nobody's saying anything. They're either participating in it or just ignoring it. So you're like, "Yes, this is the way it is." I mean, just think about socially when you're in an environment and something doesn't ring true to you, what's the first thing you do?

You'll look around to kind of see, "Am I crazy here?" And everyone's head would be down. So I assumed, "Okay, well, this is just the way it is." So you're kind of almost forced to buy into it in order to survive. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it seems like a locker room culture and there's so much consensus driven decision making at Goldman and other big firms that you can't get blackballed, otherwise you can't get promoted.

Well, and it's funny that you say consensus building because are they really building consensus or is it just kind of a group think? Yeah, group think, right. You know, like consensus almost to me means you're finding a common ground with everyone. But I really feel at Goldman it was like, "Here is the party line.

If you're not with us, then you're against us." Right, I see that. So really it was more of a group think assimilation culture, I think veiled in a, "Oh, we're consensus building." But it really wasn't. Interesting. Can you talk about your career progression from analyst, associate, VP to MD?

How long did each stage take? And can you talk about the setbacks where you were up for promotion, you didn't get it and why? Yeah, yeah. So I started in '98 in the analyst program at Goldman, which is like a straight up two-year analyst program. So I made associate in 2000.

And associate is usually like a two or three-year gig. I have to remember what year I made VP. I want to say I made it in 2003. So it was like a three-year gig for me. And initially I like to kind of call it the white noise of Wall Street.

There was just kind of all that kind of nonsense going around. And the nonsense was kind of the hazing you were talking about that you experienced. And also, I'll never forget, do you remember the Goldman Facebook? Oh, yeah. I got mine still. It was like, I do too. So it was obviously Facebook before Facebook, but it was that pamphlet.

Yes, fascinating. It had everybody's picture and where they went to school. And the HR department made it I'm sure because it wanted to encourage, "Oh, you went to Penn. This kid went to Penn. Invite them out for a coffee. Mentor them." To kind of encourage community. But I'll never forget the first week on the desk, the guys were ranking the women on Excel, who was the hottest and who had the biggest boobs and who had the longest legs and all that kind of stuff.

And again, I was just like, "What is this crazy world?" But I was so focused on ignoring it. My parents were of the generation of you getting good with the company, you stay with them for life, you get the brass watch after 30 years, you get the pension, all that kind of thing.

So for me, it was, "Jamie, ignore the nonsense. Just focus on the work." And I definitely felt like an unlikely hire at that firm. I came without connections. I came without market knowledge. I legitimately, I still have it on my bookshelf, Wall Street for Dummies, that I was reading during training to catch up with all the kids who had been investing in their own stock portfolios since middle school and high school.

And that kind of, "I'm going to work hard, put my head down," worked for a while. And I was this kind of grinder who just grinded it out. I was the first one in, the last one out. And it worked and I was recognized. And so I made VP.

And that was the inflection point where, I know you know this, but VP is where a lot of people just stay. At Goldman Sachs, eventually you make VP. But now the question is, are you a VP lifer or do you then go on? And so I made VP as expected after five years at the firm.

And then I was tapped to be a manager, which is kind of that first acknowledgement, "You know what? You can be more than a VP. You could be a managing director or I dare say a partner someday." And that's when I found Sam that the white noise became more targeted toward me.

Because then I was seen as a threat. Before that, I was just this kind of worker bee, working on the side, keeping my head down. And that's when I felt that things became a little more targeted toward me. And that's when it got tougher. I see. Yeah. I mean, because there's only so few spots, it becomes more and more political at the higher you go.

That's right. That's right. And that exactly is when I learned where, okay, from day one through VP, I like to think I did well because I had a head for numbers. I was smart. I was really good with clients and I worked my butt off. I lived and died by Goldman.

But then in order to make it to the next level, I felt like one of the reasons why I did well is because I was really good at looking the other way and keeping my mouth shut. And that's when that element started. Yeah, that dilemma. That was kind of from VP.

And then I made VP in '04. I made MD in '12. And then I left in '16. So that kind of second half of my career, second or two-thirds back end of my career was a lot more about putting up and shutting up. Yeah. No, I hear you. And kind of dealing with things that were directed toward me and then perpetuating that negative culture by not helping others.

It must be tough because as you rise in the ranks, the compensation gets higher. Can you give us, the listeners, a range of what a VP makes and then an MD and then a partner MD? Yeah. And now I'm going to tell you, Sam, I was not paid as well as my peers, my male peers.

I know those guys made twice and three times what I made. So it's interesting. When my book came out, the Post put an article up about my book. And so I said, "You know what? I'm going to go into the belly of the beast and look at all the Instagram comments about my book because that's going to be..." And a lot of people were like, "Too bad.

So sad. She made a lot of money." And I did make a lot of money, Sam. But the truth is, the guys made twice and three times and dealt with half the junk that I did. I would say in the beginning, it was a little more reasonable in terms of women and men.

So as an analyst, making 100 to 200, as an associate, then breaking to 200 to 300. As a VP, I was making in around 500, the kind of 350 to the 500 range. And then when I made manager, that's when I hit the million mark. And then I remained there throughout my tenure, kind of either side of a million, whereas a lot of my male colleagues who were doing the same job then were at like two, two and a half.

And then the partner in my area, my guess is was at least six. I see. Got it. Any given in every good world. But a great story talking about comp was, I was telling you how I made VP, but then I got that promotion to be a manager. And I'll never forget, I was a manager.

So as a manager at Goldman, you obviously receive comp from your manager, but then you give comp. And so I was able to see what everyone on my new team had made the year before, because comp is always discussed in a year over year. You made this last year, you made this this year.

And what I observed, Sam, was all the new guys working for me had made more than me the year before, which is so ironic because I essentially was the top performer because I got the manager. But yet they were all making more than I am by 200, 300, 400,000.

In fact, this one guy made, you know, the year I was promoted, I made $1 more than he did. I made a million and he made $999,999 because I had to make a dollar more than he did. But ironically, you know, he wasn't doing as well as me, but yet, you know, our comp was exactly the same.

And the year before his comp was way better than mine. And when you see behind the curtain, the compensation structure, because that is so fascinating to me, at least, because I never got to see behind the curtain. Did you confront your boss and say, "Why is it the way it is?" Or did you have to be like, grateful and just thank you very much for paying me what you're paying me?

>> So, yes and yes. So, I would never, I never fought for myself. I never said, "I know so and so." Like in my book, I never said, "Jerry and Vito are making two and I'm only making 1.2 or they're making two and a half." Because technically, you don't know what they make.

But they would throw around. And what happened was Jerry and Vito would talk to me about their comp thinking we were all making the same. >> Ah. >> And I never saw what they made. But they would just tell me like, "Oh, you know." And I would know what some of their reports made.

But I only knew for a fact what was on my team. And I saw time and time again, the guys making more than the women. And I would say stuff. But to a point, Sam, because then the comment would always be, "Hey, listen, don't piss me off. I'm working on your numbers too." >> Right.

Right. >> So I'm embarrassed to say I would fight but then always back down. And the other big thing with Compact Goldman was in those meetings were well, not only men versus women, but like the single women always got paid less than the men married with the stay at home -- >> Right.

>> -- spouse with kids. >> You mentioned that in the book. >> Which would drive me crazy because Goldman talks about being a meritocracy. >> Mm-hmm. >> It should have no bearing on anything. It should be about performance. It should be on upward trajectory. And time and time again, I saw that kind of stuff as a factor.

>> You know, meritocracy, I think we all believe in a certain level of meritocracy. But I can see those conversations playing out where, you know, you wrote in the book, "Well, XYZ fellow has a wife and two kids and this person is single. We can't let the guy with the two kids go because they're depending on him." So I can see the difficulty when it comes down to who to let go or who to pay down.

>> Yeah. >> But it's tough being a manager. >> And the problem is though, Sam, there were so few women who ever got to the point -- >> Yeah. >> -- of being married and having kids because they would all leave. >> Mm, right. >> So, you know, you very rarely -- like, I was one of the few women there who was married and had kids because a lot of these up-and-coming women, you know, would leave because they didn't see the opportunity before they even had a chance to have dependents.

>> Mm-hmm. >> So it's like, you know, and, you know, bottom line, it's like it's just not the way it should be. I mean, because those decisions were made not only in compensation but also when they were talking about retention. >> Yeah. >> And letting people go. >> Right.

>> So -- >> Right. You had, was it three children while you were at Goldman? Or was it four? >> I actually left with four. >> You left with four. And were you able to take maternity leave for several months for each child? >> Yes. >> And how did you feel during that time?

And what was your calculus regarding how much maternity leave to take and how much maternity leave did you actually get? >> So Goldman used to be four months, but then they changed it to 16 weeks. I took my maternity leave, but I was working every day. >> Got it.

>> So although I was not like on the day-to-day, you know, doing the trades and, you know, the actual day-to-day function, I was always on manager meetings. I did compensation for maternity leave. So I definitely felt compelled to, although I took the time to make sure my finger was on the pulse of what was going on at the desk because I wanted a job to go back to when I came back.

So although I took my full time, it wasn't like a real break. I mean, don't get me wrong, it was a break. I wasn't commuting four hours a day. I mean, I was with my kids, but always plugged in on my email always. >> Right. >> Because you never had that sense of safety at that place.

>> Yeah. >> You were always ready for someone to kind of eat your lunch while you were gone and take your opportunity away. >> Right. Yeah. And that's such a disconcerting feeling. You know, I look from the outside now and is it how letting go of a woman on parental leave after she comes back, wouldn't that nowadays be seen as really playing with fire where you could just face a lot of backlash from other colleagues or the woman herself?

>> I mean, it happens all the time. And I think the key is it's like Goldman is very, very good at creating the narratives they need to create in order to justify their actions. And I just know this because I worked incredibly closely with the employee relations attorneys who helped navigate the separation packages.

Like literally their job was to be like, can we get sued? >> Yes. Yeah. >> And Goldman was always very good leveraging their review system, which is highly, highly flawed to kind of paint the narrative they needed to paint. So I'm sure women did sue along the way. I mean, you know, the class action with 2500 women versus Goldman Sachs just settled last month.

>> Oh, I didn't know that. >> So there's definitely been a lot of lawsuits, but I don't think enough to keep them from kind of continuing that behavior. So one would think, but I think, listen, they're an Atwell employee, bonuses are discretionary, you know? So there are a lot of ways they can kind of, it's very hard to prove a lot of these things.

And Goldman lawyers are very, very good and very, very savvy. Not only their inside counsel, but then their outside counsel. >> What was the compensation structure of a managing director in terms of base salary and then the discretionary bonus? >> So base salary actually changed after TARP. So I was a managing director after the crisis, but if you remember the financial crisis of 2008, one of the big things that came up in DC was, "Oh my God, these bankers, their bonuses are too big." So what did Goldman do?

And the street, they raised up everyone's salary. So partner salaries were 500,000, managing director salaries, depending on when you made managing director, were 400 or 500. Because here's the rub, when TARP happened and they raised the salaries, the salaries were based on total compensation. So there was some VPs who had a higher salary than I did as an MD because back in 2007, they were making more than I did at that time.

Do you know what I mean? So I would say base salary for MDs started at 400, partners were 500, and then VPs could be anywhere from 250 to 500. >> That's pretty good. >> Depending on how much, well, 100%. I mean, that's why I talk in my book, Death Row.

I mean, some people are at Goldman right now, they don't get a bonus anymore. >> They just get a huge salary. >> But for $450,000, hey, you know what? You'll stay. >> Yeah, it's good cash flow. >> Good cash flow. Every other week, you're getting that money. >> Right.

So what would you tell maybe younger listeners? Let's say you're in college, and it seems like Goldman hires people from some of the top colleges, right? And they seem to be a little bit idealistic, these students. They go into college thinking they want to save the world, change humanity, do nonprofit, volunteer, but once they start getting dangled with these nice functions and salaries, they seem to forget the world and say, "Let's try to make as much money as possible." So let's say you were interviewing a female from Byn Mar as well, who you look at her resume and you're like, "Well, you don't seem to have a lot of finance back or anything.

You were saving animals in some countries. Why Goldman now?" I mean, I think we know that the money is the allure and there's the prestige factor, but how would you talk to young folks nowadays about joining a firm like Goldman? >> So I think the big joke was when Goldman Sachs came to Bryn Mawr's campus, which is like liberal arts, most women go on to graduate school or nonprofit, and they painted this amazing picture.

Their tagline was "Minds Wide Open." We want all different backgrounds. My thing to these women today are let's just keep our eyes wide open and get very clear about what this experience can be and what it might not be. And listen, there is nothing wrong with being a capitalist and wanting to make money, right?

>> Yeah, we're in America. >> It's like I think of careers as like a pie. You have your slice of compensation, you have your slice of passion, you have your slice for flexibility, right? So what you make on the job, how excited are you to do the job, and how much time do you have outside the job to run marathons or start nonprofits or see friends and family, right?

And it's like you got to be clear that Goldman, the pie is going to be pretty skewed. And if you accept that, then God bless you. Go have a career but know that you could always redesign that pie. The problem for me, Sam, was I went in there and then I was so, I succumbed so much to their like Jedi mind tricking that I was nothing without them, nothing without their money, nothing without their name.

And I thought I couldn't leave, that I thought I wouldn't be successful anywhere else. I thought I couldn't make money anywhere else. Goldman has this really great way, at least for me, to think of money as like a scarce resource and time as an infinite resource. Oh, you're not happy about your bonus this year?

Don't worry, it'll even out next year. You didn't make empty next year, there's always next year, the next year. As if like these days we just have an unlimited supply of them. Where in reality, you can make money anywhere, you only have so much time. So to me, it's really making sure these young people are really clear on that and feeling the confidence and the autonomy to make the change if that value proposition doesn't work for them after a year or two.

Right. Oh, I think your journey is great because you were able to see what it was like to become an MD. I tried to become an MD at Credit Suisse and I tried for one year and I failed. They were like, "Well, next year." I was like, "Oh, it's okay.

I don't want to stick around next year. Life is too short." So I think it's great that you lasted so long and you could see the entire spectrum. Now, when you left, did you quit? Did you quit? So that means that you didn't get a separation package. I got nothing.

And when you thought about that, in retrospect, do you think that was the right move or did you think, "Well, maybe you should have stuck around and figured out your next colleague to take over." No. It was the right move. And talk about that. Then when, Sam? Then when?

Then there would be more stock that needed. I mean, technically, I was a year away from my retirement age. What's that? At Goldman, they had the rule of 60, age plus years of service. Oh, yeah. That's right. And what would you get if you got that? So I had the right years of service, but I was the wrong age.

Okay. Right? So I needed to be 41. Well, it all depends. I was 40 at 18, so I was 58. I needed to be 41 at 19. But I said, "You know what? It's never like you got to walk away sometime." And I'm so glad I did because ...

And I've heard this on some of your other podcasts. It's like, "How much do you really need, Sam? How much do you really need?" And I felt like I was almost making up things, creating things I needed in order to stay. And really, I just had to cut ties.

Interesting. And I knew ... My last year, I had finally had the guts to really whistleblow on something bad that had happened, and they were out for me. Sure. And I said, "I am not giving them." So I told you before about death row. Those are the people who are treated poorly and never leave.

I was like, "I have worked too hard on my career, and I have worked too hard on my presence at that firm and my reputation to be put on death row. I am leaving on a high note with my head held high. I don't care about the money. I'm leaving on the table." Got it.

My pride was worth more than that, and I've never regretted that. Because if they had already started to make my life miserable, it would have been even worse. Got it. Well, that's good. That's good you feel that way. I guess since you quit, how did the first several months feel when bonus time came and you get that thrill and excitement of, "Okay, here's going to be the nice big one, juicy one, after all my years of performance." How did it feel not getting that first several paychecks and that bonus?

I'll never forget bonus day 2017. My daughter was a year and a half. We were hanging out. She was playing with the pots and pans, and she went into my little bar fridge. I wasn't paying attention. Got out a can of cola, like Pepsi or Coke, and it splattered all over the kitchen.

I mean, it splattered on the ceiling. I remember just being like, "Oh my God." Literally on bonus day, I was cleaning up soda. Don't get me wrong. There has been a lot of highs and lows since I left in terms of, "Do I wish I had stayed that extra year?" Absolutely not.

But do I wish that the environment could have been better for a woman like me with four kids to continue making that money? Yes. It bothers me a little bit that those bad actors from my book are still on Wall Street, still ringing the register, and that for someone like me, it was too much of a difficult environment for me to stay.

That bothers me sometimes. That being said, I'm glad I left, but it still frustrates me because you know what, Sam? That furthers the gender divide in terms of pay disparity, and that further divides power in our country because let's face it, money's power. So I resent the fact that there wasn't room for a woman like me with four kids at that firm.

But that being said, I'm still glad I left. Good. Four kids. Wow. I have two kids and I'm dying here. What do you think is harder, being an MD during crunch time or raising two children, let alone four children? I don't know what it's like to raise two children.

At one point, you did raise two children. Yes. I was raising two children for a while. Three came quickly. Listen, I think that the emotional, grueling part of Goldman was really, really hard. It was a constant battle. You were constantly stressed, constantly questioning yourself, constantly paranoid. You know, my first week at Goldman, the partner in our department said, "Welcome to Goldman Sachs, home of the most paranoid people in the world." That's what it takes to put up with this environment.

So, you know, listen, there's nothing harder than growing humans and less about their bodily needs, but just growing good characters in this crazy world. And I take that job incredibly seriously. And I think it is fraught with challenges. But from my mental health perspective, I do that job with a clear mind and full confidence and confidence that I know what I'm doing.

At Goldman, I worked very hard, but they always were Jedi mind tricking me. And I was always in a place of anxiety and paranoia. So I'm much happier now with my kids as my focus. So it's kind of hard to describe. I think that it's a hard job raising kids.

But I think that when you're working in a toxic environment, that's just the worst. Got it. You're in the New York City area, Jersey, New York City. And I was there for a couple of years. And I know there's a lot of type A grinders, go, go, go. How do you think people realize when enough is enough?

You know, how do people get off the mill? Because there seems to be this constant anxiety. And it's talked about a lot in a lot of publications about high income earning households with children in big cities like New York, San Francisco, who feel constant anxiety and angst that their children aren't going to get the same opportunities because there's so much competition.

Can you discuss how you feel about this whole situation and what you see for the future of your children? What do you think is ideal for them? So I refuse to buy in to this road to nowhere. I refuse. And when I say that is like, in my town, I'm in the New York metropolitan area.

Kids have been doing Kumans since they were three years old. I have no idea what that is, by the way. Oh, it's this intensive math and reading program. I mean, no offense to Kumans. I think it's wonderful. You know, it's a program, but like these parents are grooming their kids, starting, I mean, opening nonprofits for them at the age of five, you know, doing all this stuff.

I am not a buyer that that's going to make a difference when they're 18. I'm still a buyer of you're a good person. You work hard and you have the ability to connect and talk with people. Those are the most important. I mean, don't get me wrong. I want that and good grades.

Sure. I always say to my kids, if I had to choose, I want you to be like the decent human. And I refuse to buy into this world where, you know, grades and scores trump character. I refuse to buy into that world. That's not a world I want to live in.

So, you know, in my family, school is incredibly important. Education is incredibly important. Grades are incredibly important, but not at the cost of their character, both by being an unkind person or being a stressed out shell. 14, you know, where I hear kids are throwing up before tests because, you know, because their parents said that if they don't make the accelerated program, they're going to be in trouble.

I don't believe that that is a good, it's the right environment to grow decent humans. Yeah. I think back to your book, also your background, you know, you said your parents come from humble beginnings and my parents, just middle class folks who worked at the government and I feel like we've been able to grow our careers and make it and have some level of financial independence.

And I do wonder though, I'm just trying to reflect if we are thinking about luxury beliefs because we have financial security that our children, you know, they don't need to get those straight A's or great SAT scores or whatever because they're good. We've got insurance that will take care of them in case they fall.

And I wonder, is this the from rice patty field to rice patty field in three generations mentality where we're just like, "Oh, you know, it's okay. Take it easier." I'm just trying to think about whether we are not as hardcore as our parents were when we were growing up.

Well, it's funny. Like I think I'm kind of hardcore in that my two daughters turned 14. They're working this summer. Okay. They are working. Yeah. One is making bubble tea at a Korean fried chicken place. All right. And one is scooping caramel corn. And in fact, just the other day, I went to Dunkin Donuts with one of my twins and we bought two large like refreshers and it came to 10 bucks.

And I looked at her and said, "You know, that's an hour worth of scooping caramel corn." Yeah. She's like, "I get it." So, you know, I am not raising trust fund kids. They are not trust fund kids. I mean, my parents didn't grow up in plumbing, you know, with plumbing.

My husband works now. I am working part time now. But like I do not see us with like generational wealth that my kids never have to work. They're going to have to work. And so to me, I think it's yes and, it's grades and knowing how to scoop caramel corn.

Right. So I think it's got to be a both thing. Yeah. I mean, I've been through this and I think my kids feel incredibly secure. They have food security. They have housing security. They have clothing security. I mean, by no means. I mean, they are living a really, just the fact that they have a good education, live in a safe town and have food to eat.

They feel really good. But it's like they also have to understand what it means to work. Because honestly, Sam, who doesn't want to work? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, time and money. When you have too much of both, bad things happen. Mm-hmm. So it's like, I want my kids working.

I want my kids to be able to support themselves, not rely on anybody but themselves. And I will give them the education and the experiences to launch them to do that. But they're going to have to do that because what's the alternative? Right. Well, you mentioned generational wealth and that's a subject that I have touched upon before.

What do you think is the definition, your definition of generational wealth? I mean, to me, generational wealth is when you literally have a $10 million trust fund on your 21st birthday. And you have the interest off that that you never have to work. I mean, that to me is true generational wealth.

Okay. I mean, certainly when my husband and I die, we'll have something nice to give to our kids as a boost. But like, you know, and I am one of the very few that are going to be able to educate their kids and them not have debt. That's going to be their, they're going to be so fortunate going into this world without debt.

That's my gift to them. But short of that, you know, it's not like there's a trust fund they're living off of. So to me, generational wealth is kind of a trust fund situation. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high there. And I'm definitely privileged because like I said, I will pay for their education, which is a lot more than most people.

So they're coming into this world with privilege, but not generational wealth. Got it. I don't think you're far off on the 10 million because I ran a multi-thousand person survey to say, what is generational wealth? The number one vote actually is 10 million plus followed by 5 million. Those are the choices.

Then I did 3 million, 2 million, 1 million. And that makes sense for higher cost of living areas, about 10 million. Because you can earn actually now with 5% treasury bond yields, 500,000 off 10 million invested risk-free. And again, it's all, Sam, what do you need? And, you know, going back to, you know, my Goldman days, like I never bought into the things.

I mean, I was a laughingstock because I showed up on my first day with a suit from TJ Maxx and shoes from Payless. And the year I made MD, you know, my friend at Goldman's, I go treat yourself to something nice. I went to Marshall's and I bought myself a puffer jacket to a hundred bucks.

So like things never did it for me. And I have no judgments. Some people, things do it for them. Some people love handbags. To me, I'm fine going to Coach Outlet for 180 bucks. Some people really think of their Chanel bags as a work of art. So to me, things have never done it for me.

So like for me to leave and not have to work is yes, it's a gift because I made a lot of money, but it's also because I don't have that lifestyle. I don't have to feed the beast. Yeah, feed the beast. There's so many people in those big areas need to feed.

They need the private schools. They need the luxury cars. They need the private jets. They need the three vacation homes. I don't have a beast to feed other than my stop and shop bill. Right, right, right. Now, yeah, the burn as they say, high burn rates for folks who work on Wall Street.

So what if your daughters went to college and Goldman Sachs courted them? Would you want them to work at Goldman Sachs? I'd really want them to do what they wanted to do. You know, I mean, you know, my parents, I really wanted to be a social worker and my parents and I love them and I understand where they were coming from.

They said, no, like you're not going to make $20,000 a year. Like go have a job, make your money, then go make $20,000 a year. You know, I appreciate that they were coming from a place where they did not have the security. I mean, they didn't even have plumbing.

You know, they had outhouses when they were growing up. So, um, so for me, because of what I've done in my generation, you know, I want to make it very clear to my kids. This is what, you know, my parents never gave me a good education on money, except that I always felt like we didn't have enough.

Right. But it's like, even with my little anecdote with Dunkin Donuts, I want my kids to understand this is what a home costs. This is what an apartment is safe area costs. And it starts with getting a job and an hourly wage. And then you say, Hmm, do I want those Lululemon pants?

And I have to work 10 hours in front of a hot thing of caramel corn. You know, when you start to really decide what's important and what's not, you know, to me, a sweater is a sweater, leggings or leggings. It doesn't matter what the name says on them. Um, so to me, it's getting very clear on what kind of life they want to lead, what their passions are.

And it's all about that money, that flexibility pie. And you know what? I actually spoke with a woman from Columbia who's starting at Goldman next month and said, I read your book. I don't want to go. And I said, no, you should go see for yourself. And you know, she said, well, I have a lot of student debt.

I'm like, well, make a contract. You're going to go work there for a year. And then you see what happens again. And you work for another year. And maybe at some point you feel like I've saved enough. I paid down my debt. Now I want to follow my passion.

Right. So there's like, I think the most important thing is to tell these kids you have flexibility and you can change. So it's like, if that's what you want to do and that's what rings your bell, go for it. And if it's not what rings your bell, but you want to really save money because you want to fund a startup, then suck it up for two years.

It's your choice. It's your choice. And if you want to do something and you want to work for a non-profit and you're not going to have a lot of money, well, you might have to live at home for a while and you're welcome to. But if you want to live in the swanky apartment, then you might have to make different decisions.

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like being practical does make sense and accumulating enough wealth to have some security so you can do more of what you want. I mean, that's what I did for 13 years. I worked in finance and then I decided, hey, let's go focus on Financial Samurai and write a book as well.

Seems like it's a more helpful thing to do for society to help people with their finances for free. 100%. And you're more fulfilled and you're probably not making what you made a credit twist, but maybe you are, but maybe you weren't that first year. Right? I am making more than I ever thought possible, but I have low expectations and I'm happy.

Yeah, it's just kind of crazy. Nowadays, I think about it as a parent, what is the future of work going to be like? Is it college and then a job or is it you don't have to go to college? You can create a brand online and make money that way.

There's so many infinite ways to make money now. I hope more people are open minded to that. And the trade business, you know, one of my husband's best friends is an electrician and does incredibly well for himself. Oh, yeah. Incredibly well for himself. So there's so many different ways to do it.

And really, I think at the end of the day, it's getting clear of what you really need. And if you're in a situation where you're feeding the beast, is the output worth what you're getting? And I guess for me, the output, the money I was getting wasn't worth what it was costing me emotionally with my husband, with my kids.

Right. Have your kids read your book? I have a seven and an 11. Oh, she just turned eight. So I have an eight and 11 year olds. They're like, listen, the whole thing. My 14 year olds haven't. But they basically know what the big mic drop moments were, which was, you know, almost getting a divorce from my husband because of an infidelity.

And, you know, we're very clear about it. And it's like marriage isn't easy. No. You know, if people have been married long enough, stuff happens. Yes. You know, there is some sort of breach of trust. Maybe someone has a gambling problem, a spending problem, an addiction or infidelity. And so to me, it's all about what you make of it.

And like for me and my marriage, and I said to the girls, I say, you know, Daddy and I got married. I was 28 and I was focused on registering for China and glassware and all that nonsense, not even understanding what marriage was about. And when we almost got a divorce, it was like we can play this three ways.

We can divorce. We can pretend nothing's wrong and muscle through and get divorced when our youngest goes off to college or we can rebuild it and start again. And so I felt like I almost recommitted to my marriage at 38, where I really understood what it means to be married.

Yeah. And that's real and that's life, you know. And I can't tell you how many people I've heard from Sam who've read my book who have said, Jamie, I wish I had had that conversation with my wife or my husband because we are divorced now. Because the lifestyle and the money and the career cost them everything.

So although I'm kind of baring my soul, I don't think my story is that unique. I think it's I think it's a I mean, I was impressed that you shared that side of the story. And it was very raw. And I thought I really appreciate it. You know, when you're spending 60 hours a week working around your colleagues and you go traveling trips, it's just it's an inevitability that you develop these relationships with people.

And you know, who knows? Life is complicated. Listen, you know, I can't tell you I was raised by an Italian grandmother. I mean, I graduated college with morals, values, like family was the most important family is the most important thing. And so if it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone.

I think the reason why my husband was able to forgive me is because he knew me when I was 22. He saw the unraveling of me. He saw what that environment did to me. And so I think he knew that it wasn't about him. It was about me just grasping at straws I was so miserable.

I was employing all these coping mechanisms just to cope, just to kind of escape how unhappy I was, when inevitably what I really need to escape was Goldman Sachs. And you know, once I did that, you know, everything just turned around. Right. No, that's that's really, really great to hear.

You know, as an author, you have these great characters, and you have these antagonists and protagonists. Have you what was the decision to? I mean, I guess I know, but I would like to hear from you. What was your decision to anonymize them? And, you know, if you really wanted to?

Well, I think you do. If you want to change the culture further and help more women. What is the I guess the thought process regarding outing them and saying, like, these are the people who did these bad things? I mean, what what would the backlash be, I guess? Yeah.

For me. So the only characters in my book that are the real names are me and my family. I felt very strongly to anonymize for a couple reasons. One, this book was not about shaming anyone. Okay, I don't want to ruin any lives. Okay. Because you know what, Sam, just like my husband forgave me.

I show some grace to all the people that wronged me just as I hope that people I wrong show me grace. When you're in that environment. The it just brings out the worst in people. Yeah. So it was not about pointing out people. And honestly, if any of those guys read my book, they know who they are.

Sure. Of course. I'm sure they read your book. My colleagues read the book, they know who those people are. Right. So it was more about so that was one reason. The other reason is, I actually some of my characters are composites. Like some of the guys are based on, you know, two of the guys are based on four or five guys, because as I was writing, you know, you talked about this earlier, as I was writing the book, I started just reading a couple books a week.

And what I realized I hated about books when there's too many characters. Like, wait, who's that? Like, you know what, it'll just be easier to track for the reader if I just kind of built. Yeah, it was kind of for for consumption of the reader. And then also, I'm not shaming them.

And, and you know, it was very important for me when I wrote the book to not only talk about what was done to me, but what I did. I feel like some I've read a lot of memoirs in this process. And, and I sometimes feel that some memoirs fall short, and like, don't really go there.

And I was like, you know what, if I'm going to go there, I'm going to go there. If I'm going to shine a light on what really happens in these organizations, I have to shine a light as brightly on myself, as I do the other people, because then that would be disingenuous.

And to me, it's like, if I'm going to go there, I'm going to go there. Yeah. So yeah, that's why I felt. So that's why I felt like I wanted to be very clear about what I did. And, and I didn't feel it necessary to, to to name names.

And I'll be honest with you, everyone has Vito and Jerry's in their career. Everyone has people that look like them. Yeah. Again, I feel like as humans, we're more similar than different. Yeah, like our stories are more similar than different. So I don't think by not naming them, it if I don't think it changed the effect.

Right? No, that's a great answer. Thanks for sharing that. Because then it also just creates more tension, more drama, more wars and more he said, she said that is, you know, but I really appreciate that. I didn't want it to be about that. Yeah. I didn't want to be about, I didn't want it to be about like dragging people through the mud.

I wanted to be about the whole, and again, we were all part of it, you know, we're all part of it. And like I said, some of the guys who did some really wretched things to me, it's like, who knows what they were going through, right? Their marriage was falling apart.

Yeah. Who knows if they were on drugs? Who knows if they were functioning alcoholics? Like, so it's so hard. I, you know, those were not my the best years of my life. I hope I am not judged for my behavior as a managing director at Goldman Sachs. And so I think that kind of grace and understanding if I can receive it from my husband that I have to be able to give it to.

Right, right. Fascinating times, fascinating book. I really love Bully Market. I hope everyone picks it up. It's if you want a summer book to read on the beach or on the plane. I mean, it is one of the best books I've ever read. Jamie, thank you so much for your time.

It's been really awesome. And I hope you write more books. I hope this book turns into a TV show or, you know, HBO special. Let's put it out to the universe. I'm so pleased that you're so enthusiastic about it because, you know, a lot of people would look at the title and, you know, think, oh, you know, maybe it's not for me.

But it definitely has kind of a novel feel because it's just the story of, you know, and as we know, you know, nowadays there's such an appetite for real stories, right? I mean, the documentaries and stuff. It's like who needs to make up characters in life? We are so rich with, you know, interesting characters who needs fiction.

Yeah. Well, thanks again for your time. And I hope we connect again. Yes, me too. Thank Thank you. Okay, thanks. Bye for now.