Ep.14 - New Ministry

00:00:00.000 | I think that ranks top five most traumatic freshman experiences.

00:00:03.600 | In senior year, you realize, "Oh my gosh, I need to find a job.

00:00:07.120 | I'm going to move out of this place. Am I going to have friends?"

00:00:10.560 | One Christian after another, after we're having a conversation,

00:00:13.760 | we're like, "They just are hungry for this training."

00:00:17.040 | They have mentors, but then just being able to articulate their faith.

00:00:27.040 | All right. Hello, and welcome to the official, unofficial AX2Network podcast,

00:00:31.040 | where we are launching lifelong kingdom workers from every college town.

00:00:33.760 | I'm Steven. I'm Isaiah.

00:00:34.960 | And today we are with Ben and Helen.

00:00:37.120 | Hello.

00:00:37.680 | Hi.

00:00:38.320 | Do you guys do this all the time?

00:00:39.360 | Do you guys wear matching sweater?

00:00:41.040 | I just happen to wear the same sweater.

00:00:43.120 | Every third day, because I just rotate through my sweater.

00:00:46.000 | Is it the AX2Net sweater? Is that what it is?

00:00:47.760 | No, no, no.

00:00:48.400 | No, it's just a sweater.

00:00:49.200 | Yeah, it's a sweater that we got together.

00:00:51.200 | That sounded funny.

00:00:56.080 | at the same time.

00:00:57.040 | All right.

00:00:58.640 | Well, we're going to be talking about AX2Net today,

00:01:00.560 | but before we jump into that, this sort of new ministry that we're exploring,

00:01:05.520 | just tell us a bit about yourself.

00:01:06.480 | Why don't you guys introduce yourselves?

00:01:07.680 | Maybe what year you graduated, where you graduated from,

00:01:11.680 | who are some of your peers around our network,

00:01:13.600 | and what you're doing in ministry right now?

00:01:16.160 | Yeah.

00:01:17.040 | So, graduated class of 2001, UC Berkeley.

00:01:20.480 | Some of my peers around the network would be like Dan Chang in Minnesota,

00:01:23.280 | Henry Chen in Austin, Gary Chang up in Davis,

00:01:29.760 | and then I think actually everyone else is here in Berkeley.

00:01:33.360 | Oh, that's fun.

00:01:34.800 | Cool, cool, yeah.

00:01:35.840 | Oh, okay.

00:01:37.280 | Oh, I'm Helen, also class of 2001.

00:01:40.560 | Some of my friends in the network.

00:01:42.960 | Chi Sun Choi.

00:01:44.400 | There's Sarah Chu, who's at UIUC.

00:01:49.280 | Susan Iskandara, who's at Madison.

00:01:52.480 | Mia Wong, who's on the East Coast.

00:01:53.840 | And I think, yeah, the rest are here in California, at least.

00:01:58.160 | Sandra and Davis.

00:01:59.600 | And then your younger sister is here.

00:02:02.000 | She's in Silicon Valley, yeah.

00:02:03.840 | Cool, yeah.

00:02:04.880 | All right.

00:02:05.360 | And then, so, we're kind of, um, we're in the Fit Lit program, which is, uh,

00:02:09.600 | Leads in training.

00:02:10.880 | Leads in training, yeah.

00:02:12.080 | So, one year, we're about six months in, yeah.

00:02:14.400 | So, we've been here in Berkeley.

00:02:15.520 | We were in Irvine for four years.

00:02:17.040 | What were you doing in Irvine?

00:02:18.080 | We're leading the youth ministry down there.

00:02:19.760 | So, that was a lot of fun.

00:02:20.960 | Can you actually, like, maybe just briefly go over, like, your ministry resume since graduating?

00:02:26.080 | Like, what were the ministries you should spend?

00:02:27.520 | It's long.

00:02:28.080 | It's, like, 24 years.

00:02:28.960 | Yeah, tell us a little bit.

00:02:30.800 | So, um, for me, I, after we graduated, I joined college ministry for a year,

00:02:35.120 | and then I went on missions for a year.

00:02:36.960 | Where?

00:02:37.440 | I went to Tashkent, which is in Uzbekistan.

00:02:39.600 | Wow.

00:02:40.080 | Yeah.

00:02:40.880 | Spent a year there.

00:02:42.640 | I came back.

00:02:43.200 | Um, I was part of our practice ministry for a little bit, and then jumped back into college,

00:02:47.200 | was in college until...

00:02:48.640 | Practice is, uh, young adult.

00:02:50.320 | Right, right.

00:02:50.880 | Our young adult ministry, post-grad ministry.

00:02:52.640 | And then, um, 2014,

00:02:55.600 | Yeah.

00:02:56.560 | Um, we joined our element ministry, which is our youth group,

00:02:59.840 | here in Berkeley.

00:03:00.560 | And then we did four years of element, and then we jumped over to...

00:03:03.920 | Who are some of the element kids?

00:03:05.440 | Oh, boy.

00:03:06.000 | I remember from this.

00:03:07.280 | Graduating class, that 12th grade class was Anna King.

00:03:10.480 | Wow.

00:03:11.200 | When we first joined, class of 2018.

00:03:13.200 | Yeah, Amy Lu, Beatrice.

00:03:15.760 | Yeah.

00:03:16.320 | Oh, yeah, there's a lot of them.

00:03:17.280 | They're, like, everywhere now.

00:03:18.240 | They're everywhere.

00:03:18.960 | Spread out.

00:03:19.680 | Yeah, many of them doing youth ministry, too.

00:03:21.200 | And then our last class was Christine Lee.

00:03:23.920 | Okay.

00:03:24.880 | Oh, I take that back.

00:03:25.840 | It was Daniel Choi, so...

00:03:26.880 | Oh, Daniel Choi.

00:03:27.440 | Yeah.

00:03:27.840 | Yeah.

00:03:28.320 | Oh, wow.

00:03:28.880 | Yeah.

00:03:29.440 | 2022.

00:03:29.920 | Okay.

00:03:30.400 | 2022, yeah.

00:03:31.280 | Yeah.

00:03:31.840 | And then we went and we joined that first group that, um, started AYM, Area Youth Ministry.

00:03:36.880 | Oh, wow.

00:03:37.440 | So reaching, reaching, reaching youth kids outside.

00:03:39.600 | Oh, gee.

00:03:40.400 | Wow.

00:03:41.040 | Yeah, we got to be part of that.

00:03:42.160 | That was fun.

00:03:43.440 | Two years up here in Berkeley, and then we moved down to Irvine and kind of helped, um,

00:03:48.400 | kind of get more kind of youth ministry traction down there in Southern California.

00:03:56.080 | I remember when you guys moved to Irvine, like, that was, that was shocking.

00:04:00.080 | because you guys have been in Berkeley for so long.

00:04:01.920 | Yeah.

00:04:02.240 | And then Helen was such a crucial part of, like, ASP, life, and then we were all like,

00:04:06.320 | "Wait, are you guys really moving?"

00:04:07.200 | Yeah, we're so excited, though.

00:04:08.000 | We spent all this church training.

00:04:08.880 | We were like...

00:04:10.000 | It was during the pandemic.

00:04:11.040 | Yeah, we moved in 2020.

00:04:12.400 | August of 2020.

00:04:13.600 | Oh, wow.

00:04:14.400 | We just started.

00:04:15.360 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:16.400 | So our kids were like, "Yeah, let's go!"

00:04:18.560 | "Get me out of here!"

00:04:19.760 | "Get me out of here!"

00:04:20.640 | Yeah.

00:04:21.440 | Irvine's a better place to move to during the pandemic, but, yeah.

00:04:24.560 | You guys overlapped in college ministry, right?

00:04:28.160 | Yeah, yeah.

00:04:28.560 | In my senior, oh, we, like...

00:04:29.680 | Yeah, your senior year and then the first year out.

00:04:32.400 | And then we did Kairos, first year out.

00:04:33.840 | Kairos.

00:04:34.640 | Yeah.

00:04:35.040 | That was 2012.

00:04:36.160 | Oh, you were part of Kairos that senior, our senior year?

00:04:38.160 | Yeah.

00:04:38.640 | Yeah, yeah.

00:04:39.280 | Oh, and you were part of Klaes' that?

00:04:40.480 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:41.120 | That's right.

00:04:41.760 | Yeah.

00:04:42.320 | Goodness.

00:04:42.880 | That was...

00:04:44.080 | That was great.

00:04:45.040 | It was fun.

00:04:45.600 | A lot of fun.

00:04:46.320 | Yeah, yeah.

00:04:47.440 | All right, so, um, so, now you've signed up for the Fitlit program, and through that,

00:04:51.200 | you guys are doing this new thing called Acts 2 Next.

00:04:53.920 | Wait, wait, are you guys the oldest of the Fitlits?

00:04:56.000 | We are.

00:04:56.480 | You are?

00:04:56.960 | Yeah.

00:04:57.680 | By just a couple months, because my peer Jen Kim is...

00:04:59.680 | One of the Fitlits, I won't say who, but one of the Fitlits that got interviewed on this podcast.

00:05:04.160 | Okay.

00:05:05.200 | The only one hour!

00:05:07.120 | So that you guys are, like, the mom and dad of, like, you guys are always, like, we're...

00:05:12.080 | Well, she's clearly the mom.

00:05:13.760 | That's her presence, right?

00:05:15.280 | I'm just the oldest.

00:05:17.040 | I'm married to mom, so I must be dad.

00:05:20.080 | Step dad, I guess.

00:05:22.320 | It is kind of fun, though, because it's, like, in the Fitlits group, there's, like, these, like, families, you know?

00:05:28.960 | So it's, um, there's, like, older couples, and then it's kind of a middle level, and then the young ones.

00:05:35.280 | It's, like, about a decade, right?

00:05:36.560 | Yeah, so the youngest out of the sisters, we're 15 years apart.

00:05:40.800 | Oh, wow.

00:05:41.440 | Yeah.

00:05:42.000 | So it's kind of neat being in the Fitlits group.

00:05:43.280 | 15 years apart.

00:05:44.160 | Wow.

00:05:44.720 | Yeah.

00:05:45.280 | So for when, like, you've been doing bivocational ministry for a long time.

00:05:50.720 | Well, tell us the story of, like, how you decided to go full-time at this point in your life.

00:05:56.560 | Like, how'd you feel when you got the invite and things like that?

00:06:00.640 | Well, she really wanted to.

00:06:02.720 | I wanted to.

00:06:03.520 | And I actually have been working for a church for, like, I think this is my 16th year.

00:06:08.640 | Oh, okay.

00:06:09.120 | When my first child, when he was born, that was the year that I went full-time.

00:06:13.200 | But for Ben, it was...

00:06:13.920 | I was a little bit more resistant.

00:06:15.360 | I didn't, I didn't think, so my excuse, personally, was I don't think I can cut it.

00:06:21.280 | And I saw all of our full-time leads and the way they lived, and I just felt like that's not who I am.

00:06:30.640 | But then when I dug into that, and so I had some conversations with my leaders,

00:06:34.800 | and I remember feeling like, oh, I just changed jobs, and it's hard to find a job.

00:06:39.040 | And I had all these kind of, like, surface-level excuses.

00:06:41.200 | But then when it came down to it, it was kind of like, oh, I don't think I'm ready to surrender.

00:06:45.120 | You know?

00:06:46.160 | And that was the key word.

00:06:47.600 | So, like, even like this past year, as I was thinking about this past year, my key word was,

00:06:51.600 | God's really challenging me to surrender.

00:06:54.400 | And in the end, it's not about competence or whether you're cut out for something.

00:06:59.040 | You know, it's, it's just about whether you're willing to be surrendered or not.

00:07:02.560 | And then, and so that was kind of the struggle that I went through during that time, had conversations.

00:07:08.960 | And personally, what really moved me was seeing our foreign mission teams being sent out.

00:07:14.480 | And because I knew some of those people, and I knew some of the challenges that they were facing as they made that decision to go.

00:07:21.920 | And I was just in tears watching the foreign mission commissioning service.

00:07:28.320 | And that was right around the time I was, like, deciding, initially, deciding not to do this full-time training program.

00:07:35.360 | And then I just felt like, man, um, I, I see them surrender and I see their joy.

00:07:41.920 | And, um, what am I doing?

00:07:44.240 | I felt really challenged by that.

00:07:45.840 | So I kind of struggled with that.

00:07:46.960 | It was about a week and a half or so of really kind of praying and wrestling with myself and realizing,

00:07:53.040 | oh boy, that's kind of where I'm at.

00:07:55.280 | Like, I mean, Irvine is a comfortable city, you know, and, uh,

00:07:58.560 | And I had a great setup there.

00:08:05.200 | I loved what I was doing.

00:08:06.560 | And, um, and then to hear kind of being like, take, to take that next step.

00:08:11.920 | I think that was really challenging for me.

00:08:13.280 | Yeah.

00:08:13.760 | And I think, um, different things, conversations happen.

00:08:17.680 | And I was like, man, that's the proper response at this time for me is, is to go ahead and say yes.

00:08:23.360 | Wow.

00:08:24.160 | Thank you for sharing that.

00:08:24.960 | That's a good word.

00:08:25.600 | Yeah.

00:08:26.160 | I feel like, I often feel like different points in my life.

00:08:29.120 | Like God is calling me to a little surrender that I'm not ready for yet.

00:08:32.240 | Like that's kind of, that's always been, that's kind of been a recurring motif and stuff.

00:08:35.120 | So, but, um, but, um, before, I mean, let's, let's dive into your,

00:08:38.160 | both of your stories a little bit.

00:08:39.360 | Like, um, you know, how'd you come to our church?

00:08:41.120 | Um, and, and yeah, what made you stick around?

00:08:44.240 | How'd you become Christian?

00:08:45.120 | Like all that.

00:08:45.680 | Spiritual background.

00:08:46.400 | Yeah, spiritual background a little bit.

00:08:47.360 | Yeah.

00:08:47.760 | Just, like, it's relevant.

00:08:49.520 | Yeah.

00:08:50.400 | Sure.

00:08:50.640 | I, so I, uh, came to our church, um, through an invite.

00:08:54.880 | Okay.

00:08:55.280 | Okay.

00:08:56.080 | So one of my best friends from high school was roommates with Amy Tung, who's also one of

00:09:00.240 | my peers.

00:09:01.040 | Okay.

00:09:01.600 | And, um, they were roommates.

00:09:03.440 | So then, and I was a spring admit, so I didn't have-

00:09:06.240 | Spring admit meaning you started, your first semester was in the spring semester.

00:09:09.520 | Yes.

00:09:09.920 | But then I took extension courses in the fall.

00:09:12.080 | Okay.

00:09:12.080 | Got it.

00:09:12.400 | But then I didn't have like housing in the dorms.

00:09:14.560 | So then I was constantly over at their dorm.

00:09:17.440 | Um, and so I, I was like church hopping.

00:09:20.160 | Yeah.

00:09:20.800 | Um, and then Jin Kim, I think he's also one of our peers.

00:09:24.000 | He had friends on that floor.

00:09:25.120 | So he had mentioned like, oh, I go, you know, to this church.

00:09:27.600 | You can, you know, he invited us, but I didn't really go.

00:09:31.360 | Um, and then, uh, yeah, event, we eventually, um, went with some of our dorm friends, who's

00:09:36.560 | also some, he, they go to our church, Henry and Dan were some of our friends from dorms.

00:09:40.720 | And it was, um, it was freshman year winter.

00:09:45.920 | Welcome back freshman after the winter break, like a freshman dinner thing.

00:09:51.120 | Welcome back.

00:09:51.920 | Yeah.

00:09:52.160 | Welcome back.

00:09:52.720 | And then we all went like eight of us went, um, with dorm friends.

00:09:56.800 | And then, um, because we're all dorm friends.

00:09:58.960 | It's funny.

00:09:59.760 | Yeah.

00:10:00.080 | Just kind of friends.

00:10:00.960 | Well, Amy's from Saratoga.

00:10:03.280 | So like, you know, the connections and then, uh, we went and then we had dinner.

00:10:07.200 | It was zone C back then, uh, had great dinner.

00:10:10.240 | And then the post activity was a bowling bonanza.

00:10:12.880 | And personally, I really love bowling.

00:10:15.760 | I had my own bowling ball with my name on it.

00:10:20.240 | Yeah, I was on this father daughter bowling league.

00:10:22.080 | What?

00:10:22.640 | You seen a bowling league?

00:10:23.680 | Father daughter bowling league.

00:10:24.640 | Have you seen her bowling?

00:10:25.600 | I feel like I've only beaten her once in my league.

00:10:27.200 | Oh, really?

00:10:27.920 | What's your highest score?

00:10:28.640 | What's the highest score you've got?

00:10:30.000 | I forget, like 162 or something like that.

00:10:32.320 | 162?

00:10:33.040 | That's pretty good.

00:10:33.920 | Oh, wow.

00:10:34.480 | Okay.

00:10:35.040 | It's more about consistency.

00:10:36.240 | Yeah.

00:10:36.640 | Yeah.

00:10:37.200 | But, um, anyways, so then everyone was like, ah, I don't know if we're going to stay.

00:10:40.400 | We're like, okay, Dan Chang, make the decision.

00:10:42.080 | Are we going to all stay and go bowling?

00:10:44.320 | Well, it was like a group decision.

00:10:45.600 | It was like, yeah.

00:10:46.480 | And then, Dan wasn't even Christian at that time, right?

00:10:49.280 | Dan Chang.

00:10:50.320 | Yeah, he was not.

00:10:51.120 | But he was coming out and then secretly inside, I was like, I hope he says yes.

00:10:55.280 | And then he's like, sure, yeah, let's go.

00:10:59.920 | So we all went.

00:11:00.880 | And then it's just, I personally had a blast.

00:11:03.040 | And the rest of his history, he stayed.

00:11:07.360 | Wait, so you were church hopping, but I heard you were Mormon.

00:11:11.280 | I was.

00:11:11.920 | Is that true?

00:11:12.400 | Yes.

00:11:12.880 | I grew up Mormon.

00:11:13.680 | But you're church hopping at like Protestant churches?

00:11:17.120 | Yes.

00:11:17.840 | So I grew up Mormon.

00:11:19.280 | My dad was like a missionary and a bishop and everything.

00:11:22.080 | So we were really involved.

00:11:23.200 | Wow.

00:11:23.680 | And then we stopped going my seventh grade year.

00:11:25.920 | Oh, okay.

00:11:26.400 | And then didn't go to church for a couple of years.

00:11:29.760 | And then 10th grade, we followed my aunt, who's a devout Christian.

00:11:33.520 | She immigrated from Paraguay.

00:11:36.080 | Came to live with us.

00:11:38.240 | And we followed her to church, a Presbyterian church.

00:11:42.160 | So since 10th grade, I did go to like a church.

00:11:48.320 | And I grew up very, like, goody two-shoes.

00:11:50.720 | My younger sister was the rebellious one.

00:11:53.280 | And so even though.

00:11:55.200 | I feel like we need to have a podcast.

00:11:56.560 | Yeah, she might need to come and defend herself.

00:11:59.200 | But so, you know, I did dutifully go to church.

00:12:04.400 | But I hated my experience.

00:12:05.760 | So freshman year, I was thinking, okay, I don't need to go to church

00:12:10.320 | because my parents are not with me to make me go.

00:12:13.440 | But then freshman year, my mom called me every Sunday.

00:12:17.040 | Oh my gosh.

00:12:17.840 | Wow.

00:12:18.320 | Are you at church?

00:12:19.360 | Oh, did you go to church?

00:12:21.360 | So then out of guilt, I just needed to find a church.

00:12:24.720 | Oh wow.

00:12:25.200 | So that's why I was like church hopping.

00:12:26.960 | Yeah, yeah.

00:12:27.440 | Yeah, so freshman year, that's how I found our church.

00:12:31.920 | And then started going to the fellowship.

00:12:33.600 | And then, you know, the church.

00:12:34.960 | So then how did a goody two-shoes become Christian?

00:12:39.280 | Yeah, yeah.

00:12:41.360 | And even though I didn't like my church experience,

00:12:46.080 | I called myself Christian.

00:12:47.760 | So even when we came to our church, I called myself Christian.

00:12:50.400 | But I was definitely afraid that anyone would ask me about anything about my testimony

00:12:55.520 | or anything about Bible or gospel because I didn't know.

00:12:59.360 | Wow.

00:13:00.240 | You knew you didn't know.

00:13:02.240 | Like, that's why you're afraid, I guess.

00:13:03.680 | Yeah, yeah.

00:13:04.880 | And then I think people just assumed, like, oh, she's a good girl, you know,

00:13:09.040 | goes to church, must be Christian, you know, kind of thing.

00:13:11.680 | Yeah.

00:13:13.120 | And I decided to actually stay at our church junior year after mission trip.

00:13:18.400 | It was our first mission trip to Japan and Korea.

00:13:20.560 | Is that the really long one?

00:13:22.960 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:24.400 | I think like 70 of us went to Japan.

00:13:26.560 | That sounds fun.

00:13:27.680 | And with Pastor Ed and Kelly.

00:13:29.360 | And my first experience, a bunch of my peers went together.

00:13:33.360 | And I remember coming back like, I could do this for the rest of my life, like with my friends.

00:13:39.760 | Yeah.

00:13:40.960 | So I think after that, I wanted to stick around.

00:13:43.520 | Junior year was also when I made a decision to become a real Christian.

00:13:49.760 | Yeah, because freshman year called myself Christian, but I knew I was a fake.

00:13:55.040 | And then that's when I took Course 101.

00:13:58.480 | So sophomore year, I just stopped calling myself a Christian.

00:14:01.680 | I just asked a lot of questions.

00:14:03.680 | And it's very brave stuff.

00:14:05.920 | Yeah.

00:14:06.880 | And I felt really free because I'm like, hey, I don't know.

00:14:09.920 | And I want to ask a lot of the questions that I've been wanting to ask.

00:14:13.280 | And then it wasn't until junior year.

00:14:15.840 | Actually, it's kind of an interesting story.

00:14:19.200 | Like it was seeing myself as a sinner that I had a really hard time with.

00:14:23.920 | But then, you know, that's the central thing, you know.

00:14:29.200 | So then my leader at that time is like, okay, I want you to keep a journal and call it your IT journal.

00:14:34.640 | Impure thoughts journal.

00:14:36.240 | She's like, you just for a week.

00:14:39.360 | I just want you to write every impure thought, everything, like anything.

00:14:44.720 | Wow.

00:14:45.520 | Be specific.

00:14:46.400 | And then, so I took that, you know, being the dutiful person that I am.

00:14:50.080 | Yeah, I feel like most people are like, yeah, I'm good.

00:14:51.840 | I did that.

00:14:54.320 | Wow.

00:14:54.720 | And I like made sure no one, you know, got it or anything.

00:14:58.480 | And then she said, bring that to prayer meeting.

00:15:01.600 | So I remember very distinctly, First Press, I brought that to prayer meeting.

00:15:07.280 | She said, I want you to read that and then just pray.

00:15:11.280 | And I started reading it, like, out loud with my head into the bench.

00:15:15.200 | And I was like, in tears.

00:15:19.680 | Because I'm like, I'm a wicked, broken, messed up sinner.

00:15:24.880 | Wow.

00:15:25.200 | And I think that's very distinctly when I realized, like, I'm a sinner and I need forgiveness.

00:15:30.960 | And so, yeah, that was junior year.

00:15:33.920 | And I think that from there, it's just the process of lordship and sanctification, I think, became.

00:15:41.440 | Wow.

00:15:42.560 | That reminds me of that, you know.

00:15:43.760 | Do you still have that journal?

00:15:44.720 | Can I see?

00:15:46.720 | I burned that.

00:15:47.920 | I thought it was worth asking.

00:15:49.920 | After you can see, just like, symbolically burn it, you know, all paid for.

00:15:52.880 | I've never heard of an IT journal.

00:15:54.640 | Was that like a thing that people did back then?

00:15:56.560 | No.

00:15:56.720 | Or it was just, your leader just came up with that just for you?

00:15:59.120 | Yeah.

00:15:59.600 | Like, I guess, I don't know, but.

00:16:01.520 | It was probably externally.

00:16:02.560 | Yeah, because you were so good, you needed to do that.

00:16:04.960 | Wow.

00:16:05.520 | I mean, it's that whole, you know, imagine if there was a projection of all your thoughts.

00:16:09.760 | Yes.

00:16:10.160 | For everyone to see.

00:16:11.120 | But just a literal exercise of that.

00:16:13.360 | And she was like, write names, write thoughts, just everything.

00:16:17.440 | Wow.

00:16:18.080 | But you actually did it, I think that's.

00:16:19.360 | Yeah.

00:16:19.680 | That's, yeah.

00:16:20.400 | That's crazy.

00:16:21.200 | Wow.

00:16:21.680 | Yeah.

00:16:22.080 | Yeah.

00:16:22.240 | But how about, how about Ben?

00:16:23.840 | Like how did, you know, what's your story?

00:16:25.360 | Yeah.

00:16:25.680 | So, um, my parents became Christian when I was two.

00:16:28.560 | Okay.

00:16:28.960 | And they were, uh, zealous.

00:16:30.800 | Um, and so I was the kid who grew up in church at church, you know, we're there like

00:16:38.000 | every other day, um, all night, you know, whatever, um, for various things.

00:16:43.680 | I, I, I remember kind of getting cynical about the church towards the end of high school because I,

00:16:50.320 | I just kind of started to feel like, oh, it's just the same thing as, as school.

00:16:55.840 | Like every, it's just a popularity game.

00:16:57.680 | You know, people think you're spiritual if you're up on the, up in the front.

00:17:00.960 | Um, so I joined praise band, um, to do that to like, but then, you know, kind of recognized,

00:17:08.560 | uh, it was, my experience was pretty shallow.

00:17:11.600 | Um, and I remember thinking as I graduated from high school, headed to college, um,

00:17:19.040 | if my church experience in college is the same as this, I don't know if I want to stick around.

00:17:23.760 | Um, and then I came across our church because, um, one of my high school friends, um,

00:17:33.600 | is Annie Song, we went to the same high school, same peer class, same graduating class.

00:17:39.280 | Her older brother, Jim, uh, who's in our DMV church now.

00:17:42.560 | He, um, he was a senior, uh, my freshman year.

00:17:46.960 | And, um, so I had met him a few times, um, just various like stuff.

00:17:52.480 | And then, um, and then when it came time for Cal day,

00:17:55.600 | which is the kind of like the orient, not orientation.

00:17:58.080 | It's like, it's like the day that the school tries to get you to come to their school

00:18:01.360 | after they've accepted you.

00:18:02.240 | So UC Berkeley came up.

00:18:03.760 | I stayed with Jim, um, and I had a blast that weekend.

00:18:08.160 | I stayed over at Dana house, which is our bros ministry house.

00:18:10.960 | Um, uh, that was the year that we, um, our church started impact.

00:18:16.320 | So the very first impact spring fest, um, which was kind of like a, a week long,

00:18:22.880 | um, like enrichment for, um, yeah, inner city, Oakland kids.

00:18:27.040 | Um, and so they were up every night, just like prepping for it.

00:18:31.440 | And I got to see that.

00:18:32.560 | Yeah.

00:18:33.040 | And then they hosted me and I just, I mean, I'm a high school senior, you know,

00:18:36.160 | I've never been hosted in this way.

00:18:37.120 | Yeah.

00:18:37.840 | And I, I just had such a blast.

00:18:39.600 | Yeah.

00:18:39.920 | I remember having really fond memories and, and then they're Christian, you know,

00:18:43.600 | so kind of like brought that back.

00:18:45.760 | And then when it was time, uh, to come to college, I realized that, well, I had a really

00:18:50.400 | bad case of senioritis my senior year of high school.

00:18:53.040 | And so, um, I received housing, but I forgot to pay the deposit.

00:18:59.280 | And so I lost housing and I didn't know anything about like, oh, you can rent an

00:19:05.840 | apartment or anything like that.

00:19:07.120 | And so then in desperation, I called Jim and he's the only person I knew.

00:19:11.280 | And I said, Hey, uh, do you know anyone who can like, I can crash with for, you know,

00:19:17.760 | housing and dining said they can give me housing in about a month after school starts.

00:19:21.040 | So I said, I just need a month.

00:19:22.960 | And then, so then he deliberated with his roommates.

00:19:24.880 | It was going to be a senior year.

00:19:25.920 | They wanted to use their place for ministry and all this kind of stuff.

00:19:28.800 | And then they decided to take me in.

00:19:30.480 | So, um, so I slept not in their closet, but in front of their closet.

00:19:37.120 | I set up my bed, like, so then in order for them to get their clothes, they have to reach over

00:19:41.040 | my, my, you know, sleeping body, you know, kind of thing.

00:19:44.400 | So it was a huge inconvenience for them.

00:19:47.040 | I don't think I fully appreciated it at that time, but I'm so thankful.

00:19:52.000 | And then all of them, they go to our church and Sunday morning is hard to wake up, you know,

00:19:56.480 | and, um, they have a car and they're driving to church.

00:20:00.080 | And so I catch a ride.

00:20:01.600 | And I mean, I church hopped for like all of one week after that.

00:20:04.960 | I'm like, I like these guys.

00:20:06.240 | But I also felt like, um, well, two things, um, the church that I was attending back at home,

00:20:13.600 | they heard that I had checked out our church and actually the, one of the older guys took me

00:20:18.880 | aside and he said, Hey, um, I'm not sure about that church.

00:20:22.640 | They're really different.

00:20:23.440 | I said, Oh, how are they different?

00:20:25.200 | He goes, um, I think they're really conservative was what he said.

00:20:30.080 | Okay.

00:20:30.400 | And he kind of with, you know, essentially kind of said, you know, they're very different from us.

00:20:36.240 | So I don't think you're going to like them.

00:20:37.360 | And in my head, I was like, okay, okay.

00:20:40.400 | But then in my head, I was like, maybe I'm going to check this out.

00:20:43.360 | Because I really didn't like the church.

00:20:44.720 | So I was like, if it's different from this, man, I might actually like it.

00:20:48.000 | Give me a shot.

00:20:48.720 | So yeah, so that was kind of, and, um, yeah, so then I, I stuck.

00:20:53.440 | And then I started calling our church home, um, freshman year, first semester.

00:20:57.120 | Okay.

00:20:57.600 | So after Thanksgiving break, I was like, mom, I'm going home.

00:21:00.320 | And she was not happy.

00:21:02.320 | Well, that's surprising.

00:21:05.920 | Because I heard that one of your very first experiences at our church was somewhat traumatic.

00:21:11.280 | What?

00:21:13.360 | And of certain sports outing.

00:21:15.440 | Yeah.

00:21:17.440 | So I get asked about this question, the story a lot.

00:21:19.520 | Maybe this is an opportunity to set the record straight.

00:21:22.480 | Yeah.

00:21:22.800 | Yeah.

00:21:23.040 | Because when I heard it for the first time, you like fell and you dislocated both your shoulders.

00:21:28.160 | Yeah.

00:21:28.560 | But that's not true.

00:21:29.280 | That's actually not true, but it's not that far from true.

00:21:32.080 | It's only half true.

00:21:33.280 | So it was the, um, so I'm living with these guys.

00:21:36.400 | It's the first week of school and our church, you know, our group is having like all sorts of

00:21:40.720 | welcome activities.

00:21:41.440 | And one of them was a sports night.

00:21:42.720 | Yeah.

00:21:42.960 | And, um, somebody had, uh, uh, left, um, a pair of basketball shorts on my bed.

00:21:51.120 | And I never had owned, I don't play sports.

00:21:54.080 | I was never like that growing up.

00:21:56.320 | So, um, I was like so excited.

00:21:58.800 | Like, wow.

00:21:59.280 | I have a pair of basketball.

00:22:00.240 | I just took it for myself.

00:22:02.000 | Finders keepers.

00:22:03.680 | So later guys are worth my shorts.

00:22:04.960 | But then, um, the problem was it was like an X large or a double X large.

00:22:09.040 | I forget.

00:22:09.600 | And it didn't have a drawstring.

00:22:10.720 | Oh.

00:22:11.200 | So it was fine when I'm walking around at home, it's pajamas or whatever.

00:22:14.880 | But then I decided sports night.

00:22:16.560 | I get to wear my new, kind of new shorts.

00:22:19.600 | Go.

00:22:20.800 | And, um, the, the game was capture the flag.

00:22:23.760 | And you actually wear flag football flags.

00:22:26.480 | Oh, that's great.

00:22:26.800 | Freshman versus seniors.

00:22:28.400 | And, um, we know where this is going.

00:22:30.240 | Yeah.

00:22:31.200 | So, um, so yeah, I'm not very athletic.

00:22:34.880 | And yet, um, I got it in my head that if I run really fast, maybe I can get to that safe zone where the flags are.

00:22:41.200 | And as I'm running, um, I start and then full speed, top speed, like, two miles an hour.

00:22:48.800 | He was a math lead, not a math lead.

00:22:52.880 | Were you a math major?

00:22:55.760 | No, I wasn't.

00:22:57.280 | But it was like middle school math competition.

00:22:59.360 | Anyway, yeah, so I'm running.

00:23:01.200 | And then some, uh, senior sister, and I remember it was a girl.

00:23:05.680 | And I don't know who it was, though, thankfully.

00:23:07.440 | Okay, yeah, probably Ellen.

00:23:08.880 | I don't think so, but I have my, yeah, anyway.

00:23:12.880 | Uh, comes and, you know, pulls my flag.

00:23:15.520 | And that's normal.

00:23:17.040 | Yeah.

00:23:17.520 | Except my shorts are underneath that flag.

00:23:19.360 | Yeah.

00:23:19.840 | And she pulled the shorts, too.

00:23:20.960 | Oh!

00:23:21.360 | And the shorts go all the way down to my ankles.

00:23:24.320 | And...

00:23:25.920 | Oh, she must have been mortified.

00:23:27.040 | Hopefully she, oh.

00:23:28.000 | I don't know if she noticed.

00:23:29.040 | Oh, she didn't notice?

00:23:30.560 | I may, I don't know, but...

00:23:31.840 | Caught up in the moment.

00:23:33.200 | But then I am going as fast as my little body can go, right?

00:23:35.840 | Yeah.

00:23:36.400 | So all that momentum, shorts at your ankles.

00:23:39.040 | And then I fall over, face down on the, on the, on the turf field.

00:23:43.680 | And I had this problem where I would dislocate my shoulders, starting from middle school.

00:23:47.280 | Too much math.

00:23:49.120 | And so, um, so then when I landed, I landed on one of my shoulders and one of my shoulders popped out.

00:23:53.600 | Oh!

00:23:54.320 | So then I'm, so, so then at this point, people usually ask me, "Hey, how come you didn't just

00:23:59.040 | pull your shorts up with your other hand?"

00:24:01.200 | And I said, "Have you ever dislocated your shoulder?"

00:24:04.320 | So I'm holding my shoulder, um, face down, thankfully, but my shorts are at my ankles.

00:24:10.960 | And then I had a, um, a guy who was kind of like, um, like an older guy who was kind of reaching out to me.

00:24:16.160 | Is this massively built football player kind of, kind of guy.

00:24:19.040 | And, um, he saw it from, I guess, wherever he was, sidelines or something.

00:24:23.600 | And then he ran.

00:24:24.480 | And he, very, I, I imagine.

00:24:27.120 | I had to save you.

00:24:27.760 | I was face down, so I don't actually see it, but I can also see it as like a, as it was a movie.

00:24:32.800 | Yeah.

00:24:33.120 | And he's running, and he's running parallel to my, my prone body.

00:24:36.720 | And he grabs my shorts in, in one swift motion.

00:24:40.320 | And he grabs it and pulls it up.

00:24:43.040 | But the man's really strong.

00:24:46.160 | And he actually lifts me off the ground by my shorts.

00:24:54.160 | And so, oh my gosh, I never heard that part of this.

00:24:56.960 | Oh man.

00:24:57.520 | I, I didn't know what a wedgie was.

00:24:58.960 | But now you do.

00:25:00.800 | Now you do.

00:25:01.440 | And so then, um.

00:25:02.080 | It was a baptism by fire.

00:25:03.520 | Is this Charlie?

00:25:03.840 | No, no, it's Henry.

00:25:05.360 | And, oh my god, oh yeah.

00:25:07.440 | Yeah, and then, and then he proceeded to declare in a loud voice.

00:25:11.280 | He gathered a group of guys around to say, there is, there is nothing to see here.

00:25:15.840 | Which made everybody who, who didn't notice anything, suddenly trying to look.

00:25:21.360 | Anyway, um.

00:25:22.800 | I was not there.

00:25:23.600 | Yeah, okay.

00:25:24.080 | Yeah, thankfully.

00:25:24.880 | Which is why this has happened.

00:25:26.000 | Yeah.

00:25:26.240 | I think if I were there, I would've been like, oh my gosh.

00:25:29.680 | Yeah.

00:25:31.920 | Wow.

00:25:32.320 | It's providence.

00:25:32.960 | Yeah.

00:25:33.520 | I think that ranks top five most traumatic freshman experience.

00:25:37.280 | Yeah.

00:25:37.520 | I didn't realize that was your freshman year.

00:25:38.240 | Not even at our church.

00:25:38.960 | Just freshman year.

00:25:39.680 | That was freshman year.

00:25:40.400 | Freshman year, like during welcome week.

00:25:41.760 | First week.

00:25:41.920 | During welcome week, yeah.

00:25:42.960 | Wow.

00:25:43.520 | Wow.

00:25:44.000 | That's traumatic.

00:25:44.720 | But you're here.

00:25:45.520 | I'm still here.

00:25:46.320 | You're here.

00:25:46.960 | 27 years later, just telling the story.

00:25:50.000 | Yeah.

00:25:50.560 | That is an awesome story.

00:25:52.560 | Yeah, so let that set the record straight.

00:25:54.400 | Yeah.

00:25:54.720 | Wow.

00:25:55.280 | That clarifies a lot of things.

00:25:56.320 | Yeah.

00:25:56.720 | That was worse than that.

00:25:57.440 | Does that also explain a lot of things?

00:25:59.040 | Yeah, actually.

00:26:00.880 | But we're talking about becoming Christian and why you stay in our church and everything.

00:26:04.880 | Oh, yeah.

00:26:05.360 | Okay.

00:26:05.920 | We can do that really quick.

00:26:06.640 | We spent a lot of time.

00:26:08.320 | Yeah.

00:26:08.800 | Anyway, so you know how they say like if you're really well-churched, sometimes you have to be

00:26:15.520 | unsaved in order to become saved?

00:26:17.280 | Yeah.

00:26:17.600 | So that was me.

00:26:18.160 | I thought I knew so much.

00:26:20.960 | But the whole aspect of sin, my personal sinfulness was kind of just a theoretical thing.

00:26:25.920 | Until freshman year, winter retreat, the pastor preached on Luke 15.

00:26:32.800 | And I was like, oh, I'm not the younger son.

00:26:36.240 | I'm not rebellious like that.

00:26:37.360 | But man, when he started preaching on the older son, that really hit me.

00:26:41.600 | Because all my life, I had been in the father's house.

00:26:44.640 | But there were so many ways in which I did not understand the father's heart.

00:26:47.760 | Yeah.

00:26:48.320 | And so I didn't understand the father's heart for me.

00:26:51.840 | I didn't understand the father's heart for his lost children.

00:26:54.720 | And I didn't understand that the father wanted a relationship with me.

00:27:01.360 | And so all of that, and that was my rebellion.

00:27:05.200 | You know, there externally, but internally, like far, far away.

00:27:10.080 | Yeah.

00:27:10.800 | And so that really broke me.

00:27:12.480 | That's when I made a clear salvation decision.

00:27:16.560 | That's when I said, oh, now I get it.

00:27:18.560 | Now I understand why Jesus needs to be my savior.

00:27:20.480 | After that, it was kind of a struggle for lordship though.

00:27:24.480 | Because some of those truths that I believed and I carried growing up was so deep in me.

00:27:30.960 | And just the personal lack of reflection and personal lack of depth.

00:27:35.680 | Like that, that was, that was a challenge to really kind of continue to muck through.

00:27:40.400 | And, you know, so that the rest of my college experience was really an exercise of trying to

00:27:47.200 | get deeper, you know, be a little bit less shallow,

00:27:50.240 | be more thoughtful, recognize my sinfulness a little bit more.

00:27:52.960 | But yeah, that's kind of how that happened.

00:27:56.560 | And really it was like the first year after college where I experienced, I think in some

00:28:03.520 | ways that first step of like genuine lordship.

00:28:07.680 | And, you know, they say that after college is kind of when the rubber finally hits the road.

00:28:13.360 | Yeah, you're like writing checks.

00:28:14.480 | Yeah, yeah, you're writing checks and now you have to finally cash them.

00:28:17.920 | And I realized, wow, I don't have much stored up in the bank.

00:28:21.840 | And so I think that was an experience of really struggling with, okay, what do I really believe?

00:28:30.080 | And what does, what does that implication for my life?

00:28:32.640 | So I spent that year in Tashkent.

00:28:35.520 | I initially went, I remember my first thought of why I wanted to go, I just wanted to get away.

00:28:41.360 | I wanted to get away from all these people that I thought had all these expectations for me.

00:28:46.560 | And I just wanted some space to like, just try to live my life for God and to really wrestle

00:28:52.080 | with God and some of these truths that I was kind of realizing about myself.

00:28:55.520 | And I think that's essentially what happened because there was time and space to read,

00:29:00.400 | to pray, to kind of struggle and wrestle. And I didn't have this, you know,

00:29:05.440 | a lot of people that I was so like face saving in front of, not, they weren't there with me per se.

00:29:11.040 | So I think that was a really, man, God really used that time to kind of show me.

00:29:16.080 | And that's, I made a Lordship decision while I was, so it was kind of odd, like, here's a missionary.

00:29:23.280 | Becoming a Christian. Yay. Finally.

00:29:27.200 | Actually that, that year that he was gone, because I mean, I liked him,

00:29:32.000 | but I don't think he knew that I liked you.

00:29:33.360 | But during that time, it was first year after one year of college staff.

00:29:38.960 | And then I was, um, just running on empty, like I was doing all the right things,

00:29:43.840 | but just feeling really hollow. And then that second year, um, I think was when I really was able to

00:29:50.640 | struggle with that and did a lot of reading and flexing and praying.

00:29:55.120 | And, um, that, I think that's when I also made a, um, Lordship decision.

00:29:59.520 | Yeah. So you're saying it helped that he was away or?

00:30:02.880 | That, that probably helped too.

00:30:04.560 | That's part of the struggle.

00:30:05.440 | Angst.

00:30:06.560 | Yeah.

00:30:07.440 | Yeah.

00:30:08.320 | Just distraction and everything gone.

00:30:11.120 | Um, yeah.

00:30:12.480 | Well, that's interesting because you guys both had like, um, a moment, like in your college,

00:30:18.000 | you know, I feel like there's always these windows of opportunity where people may have a new spiritual

00:30:23.120 | openness or a new spiritual understanding of who they are and before God.

00:30:26.400 | And there's like a significant move that happens there, but then post-grad, like after you graduate,

00:30:31.520 | there's another moment, another window of opportunity there as well.

00:30:34.400 | Well, that where there's like openness and kind of like a who am I and a re-examining of everything.

00:30:38.880 | Right.

00:30:39.520 | Yeah.

00:30:39.520 | Which is a good segue into today's topic.

00:30:41.600 | Perfect.

00:30:42.080 | Yeah.

00:30:42.400 | Acts 2 next, which is a new, kind of a new ministry for, that we started and something

00:30:48.320 | that the FitLit you guys have been trying to tackle.

00:30:51.120 | So, um, because I think so far it's been sort of your college student and then your staff.

00:30:56.240 | And I think what we're seeing is, okay, but those first three years, it is this very kind of

00:31:00.640 | tumultuous, tumultuous kind of interesting time or lots changing and you're trying to adapt

00:31:06.560 | to this new reality after you graduate and next is sort of a, in some ways like a response to that.

00:31:12.240 | But maybe you guys could just explain what is Acts 2 next, um, and kind of what was the impetus,

00:31:17.680 | at least in your understanding, because you guys have been doing a lot of stuff with Acts 2 next.

00:31:20.880 | Yeah, I think, um, I think, okay, so what is Acts 2 next?

00:31:27.440 | Acts 2 next is, um, a ministry that tries to, um, that is reaching out to

00:31:36.160 | people from senior year of college through maybe the third year out of college.

00:31:41.680 | Um, and that group of people, perhaps many of them did not go through four years of our college ministry,

00:31:49.840 | or some of them did, but they, you know, they're kind of in and out.

00:31:52.720 | And for one, one reason or another, um, a year or two after graduation, they're not really quite

00:31:58.960 | ready to like join our staff team or they like us, but they're kind of distant, they're busy, you know,

00:32:03.840 | whatever. Yeah. And so it's kind of a group of folks that we really want to, um, minister to

00:32:09.360 | and pour into and raise them up. Well, one, you know, share the gospel with and become Christian,

00:32:14.880 | of course, but then if they are Christian, then we want to raise them up to see a particular picture

00:32:20.080 | of Christian life as their life as a minister. Um, and by doing that, we can, it's kind of like a

00:32:27.040 | slightly, I don't want to say it negatively, but I do, you know, a slower on ramp into our staff life.

00:32:32.880 | Yeah. I don't think that's the same negative either. I think some people appreciate that

00:32:36.000 | because they're like, I'm not, it's almost, you know, I'm not ready for like zero to a hundred.

00:32:39.600 | Yeah. But if I, you know, have a longer on ramp.

00:32:41.440 | I want some time to like kind of get to know you guys and figure out this is what I want to do.

00:32:44.720 | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's also, I think what we've been seeing is, um,

00:32:48.960 | some people just have more time after college.

00:32:51.520 | Yeah. Just causes our, when we were in college, it was just like, like you never studied, you just,

00:32:55.920 | we were just like, you don't go to college and you're just like, woo, you know, but nowadays

00:33:02.320 | it's so competitive, people are like joining all kinds of clubs and stuff. It's a little bit different

00:33:06.000 | and it's like after college, that's kind of when people go, Oh, what was all that for?

00:33:10.240 | Yeah. I now have all this time. What am I doing with it? And so maybe for a lot of people,

00:33:14.800 | those existential questions that they're asking that maybe some more people used to ask freshman year.

00:33:20.400 | of college or sophomore year of college. Yeah. Or they're, they're not, their head's still down

00:33:25.920 | through all the way through college. They're not really asking those questions until maybe their

00:33:29.120 | first or second year out of college or maybe even at the tail end of senior year. Yeah. You know?

00:33:34.000 | Yeah. And I feel like maybe in the past, the way we did ministry and stuff was sort of like,

00:33:38.080 | okay, if you're not asking those right now, like you don't really fit in anywhere. And then if you're

00:33:42.160 | asking it later, you don't really fit anywhere either, you know? And so it's kind of too late. We don't have

00:33:46.480 | like a way to like, yeah, you know, I mean, you minister to a lot of your, um, I remember you

00:33:52.480 | minister to a lot of your friends, your senior year, right? So it's kind of like that picture,

00:33:56.800 | but that's kind of, I feel like that was rare at our church. Yeah. I mean, I do think sort of the

00:34:01.520 | prevailing wisdom, at least when we were undergrads is college is when you have time and it's when you

00:34:06.160 | should think about these things. Cause when you graduate, it's just too busy. And I mean, it is busy when

00:34:10.560 | you graduate, but I think college has just changed now. So now that calculus is kind of, it's shifted.

00:34:15.040 | So now it's like, no, maybe when you graduate is the time, it's time. And then I mean, with the job

00:34:20.000 | market as it is, some people got some, um, long period before they even start work. So yeah.

00:34:25.520 | Yeah. Another aspect is, um, like college, you kind of have community already there,

00:34:31.360 | like dorm life or clubs. Um, and then, you know, like you're studying to get out, but then senior

00:34:38.720 | year you realize, oh my gosh, like I need to find a job. I like, I'm going to move out of this place.

00:34:44.000 | Like, am I going to have friends? Like all my friends are going to other places for jobs,

00:34:47.920 | like I'm moving by myself. So I think senior year after that kind of like, um, rat race grind is going

00:34:55.600 | to halt soon. Then they're asking all these questions. Yeah. And it's hard to make friends once you

00:35:00.240 | graduate. Oh yeah. It's not as easy as college for sure. Yeah. There's so much of the campus that

00:35:03.760 | just serves that up for you. Yeah. And so then they graduate and they feel bereft, you know,

00:35:08.000 | they might have a great job in it, but they're in a new city and they don't have any family or friends

00:35:12.160 | there. And like coworkers are not the same kind of friends that like, you know, so, um, I think one,

00:35:19.520 | one other thing is like in general, people are a lot less connected. Yeah. Right. And so the fastest

00:35:24.400 | growing household is household one. Yeah. So then they don't have anyone to like even ask a basic

00:35:29.360 | question. Like, like everything is, all of your answers come online from these like, you know,

00:35:36.080 | faceless articles. And, um, and I think people are, are really hungry for connection during that period too.

00:35:43.440 | Yeah. So actually next is sort of coming in and filling that need, I guess. That's a,

00:35:47.840 | that's definitely the felt need. Trying to figure out what shape this needs to be.

00:35:52.160 | Yeah. To, to kind of meet that need. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what, what have you guys been doing? Like,

00:35:57.760 | what, what have you guys been engaging in trying to shape this new ministry or, or give shape to it? And

00:36:03.920 | what are the things you guys, what are the things you guys have primarily been doing to do that?

00:36:07.920 | Yeah. So, um, everyone who is like trying to head up an acts to next group in our church across our

00:36:16.880 | network. Um, if you ask them and there's like 12 people, you'll get 12 different answers right now.

00:36:23.040 | Everyone's just kind of feeling things out. All they know is this is kind of the age range and whatever,

00:36:28.640 | like, but for us, um, because, um, we're a lot more mobile this year. Um,

00:36:36.880 | so one of the things that we've been kind of doing is, uh, we've been hitting campuses. Um,

00:36:42.800 | so we've been going on various trips for one reason or another. Um, but, uh, yeah,

00:36:48.800 | so we call them ERTs evangelistic road trips. Um, we spent a good chunk of time in New York. Um,

00:36:55.280 | we went through a couple of campuses in the Midwest. Um, we went to Atlanta, um, about a month ago.

00:37:00.800 | And, um, and then, uh, some of the, um, some of our folks went to, um, Southern California. So

00:37:07.760 | I think for us, one of the things that we're trying to tackle is, um, understand, uh, as a senior in

00:37:16.080 | college, like, what do you feel like you need as you project your future? Yeah. And, um, it's interesting

00:37:21.520 | because a lot of them are saying, you know, I think career, there's a lot of things out there.

00:37:26.720 | No, there's no one to tell me how to do relationships. I don't know how to keep,

00:37:31.760 | am I going to lose my friend? Like this whole question of friends, like, I think that's a big need,

00:37:35.920 | but it's also kind of, you know, um, it, it's not something that, um, people are talking about a whole

00:37:42.000 | lot. Um, so I think that's, so we go out, we, we collect some data, we do surveys. Um, we try to make

00:37:48.560 | some good connections with people. Sometimes we will go to a campus and we'll just, um, have like Bible

00:37:53.360 | studies, like, uh, like a 50, Hey, you interested in a 15 minute Bible study. Um, and then we'll just

00:38:00.160 | kind of go through maybe like the rich full text and Luke or something like that. And just kind of peak,

00:38:05.120 | see where people's spiritual interest is, especially as like seniors in college. And then, um,

00:38:10.960 | and talk to a lot of people and as we do that, I think, um, the people with whom we've had really

00:38:18.640 | good connections on their campus, we can actually continue that conversation when we come back home.

00:38:23.760 | And so whether it's like, uh, sometimes we'll invite them to our coaching session, uh, we'll invite

00:38:29.200 | them to a webinar about job search or something like that. Other times it's just straight up like,

00:38:33.760 | Hey, um, you want to chat about that thing that you shared with me about when, when I was out there.

00:38:38.240 | And then they'll set up like a 30 minute meeting. And some of those conversations have been kind of

00:38:42.960 | ongoing. Um, I think there's even like, um, kind of course, one-on-one Bible study evangelistic kind of,

00:38:48.640 | um, things that are starting up. So that's some of the things that we've seen.

00:38:52.480 | So you've been more in like a, almost like a data gathering, surveying, and then like an online

00:38:56.640 | kind of that this is taking. Yeah. What, what are some things you've been learning through that? I mean,

00:39:01.360 | you've seen a variety of campuses different in each context, or is there like some, some similarities

00:39:05.840 | that are sort of popping up? Yeah, definitely. Um, there's a variety, uh, some of the campuses

00:39:14.240 | and these are generalities of course. And you know, you can, I don't know, I don't know that we are such a

00:39:20.720 | great data collection, you know, organization, but from our experiences, um, there are some campuses

00:39:28.320 | where we were overwhelmed by the number of people who are spiritually interested in the other places

00:39:35.280 | where people are just kind of more, you know, tepid. Um, and it's, it's interesting that, um, uh,

00:39:43.360 | you would feel that way. You would think that like people are all so different and they're all kind of

00:39:47.200 | evenly spread up, but it's, it's not, you know, and it's like a campus culture, like there's a campus

00:39:51.440 | culture, uh, openness or maybe hostility or like blase or whatever. So that's definitely true.

00:39:58.800 | Yeah. I think, um, just talking to college students at campuses, these new campuses, like we meet

00:40:05.200 | Christians, um, plugged in, you know, they're being discipled, but, um, like one Christian after another,

00:40:12.160 | we've, after we're having conversations, we're like, they just are hungry for just training or they have

00:40:18.320 | mentors, but then like just being able to articulate their faith or, um, being trained in apologetics,

00:40:24.080 | like it's not something that they're regularly getting, like they might be reading the Bible, but

00:40:28.080 | in terms of, um, being able to persuade or being able to articulate and, um, explain Christianity or just

00:40:35.840 | these different questions, like that's a need that we saw or, um, yeah. So, or there's a campus that as

00:40:41.920 | we were doing the surveys, we see that many of them have never heard the gospel, you know? So, um, I think

00:40:47.920 | just going, having these times where we can, we're surveying and just having conversations and we're kind of

00:40:53.680 | armed with just different questions that we might ask on a campus, um, it's, it's been very eye-opening,

00:40:59.680 | um, recently because we, we tried to, uh, we kind of distilled it down to three different areas or topics,

00:41:08.320 | uh, for X2NEX, like career, um, and then adulting or adulthood, and then faith. So, um, on our website,

00:41:16.160 | we kind of categorized in that way. And on, for the web, we try to, on a regular basis, um, have something

00:41:23.840 | to, uh, uh, that caters to each of those, um, areas. Um, but I think for postgrads, many of them, like,

00:41:33.120 | they might be graduating from grad school or they have a job, but, um, it seems like they just want an

00:41:38.640 | older, stable. A lot of them talk about just wanting somebody to talk to. Talk to, like, just a mental,

00:41:44.800 | like, am I going in the right direction? Like, what, from your experience, like, how has it been? Or,

00:41:51.040 | you know, like that kind of conversation. Whereas in, like, juniors and seniors that we're meeting on

00:41:55.120 | campus, like, who are going to graduate, like, they're kind of like, how do I write a resume? You

00:41:58.880 | know? It's like that, those kind of needs. Yeah. Um, that's interesting. So those three topics,

00:42:05.200 | I think, um, in terms of, like, drawing somebody in with one of those topics, I actually think that

00:42:11.920 | from what we've seen, um, like, we, we put on these webinars, um, online and, um, the career type of

00:42:19.680 | webinars, even though they said, oh, we're good on career. We really want adulthood or those kinds of

00:42:25.040 | topics. People don't sign up for those. People sign up for the career ones. So I think that's just an

00:42:30.720 | easier step in lower barrier. Yeah. And then I think the adulthood, they want to, they want to

00:42:35.440 | talk to someone who they can kind of trust. Yeah. So it's kind of hard to come in cold to something

00:42:39.440 | like that. And then faith for sure. Right. Someone that you've had a really good conversation with.

00:42:43.520 | So I think that's kind of the progression that we're kind of starting to feel. Um, but, uh,

00:42:51.120 | even a totally cold contact, let's say they received a survey for 30 seconds and then they got a candy

00:42:56.480 | bar out of it or something and we never see them again. But one of the things is if somehow we can

00:43:03.440 | get them into some kind of a coaching conversation, um, those conversations tend to be very personal,

00:43:08.800 | you know, and, and they reveal a lot about themselves and you reveal, and then there's a connection there.

00:43:13.200 | And, um, I think people, because people are so hungry for connection, I think, um, if that can happen,

00:43:19.600 | then, um, then you can really start to build that relationship. It's, it's not so hard. It's that initial

00:43:26.000 | first step. That's interesting. Yeah. So it seems like it calls for something like kind of hybrid

00:43:30.000 | where like the lower barrier entry, maybe just clear add value. It's just like a clear thing,

00:43:34.480 | but then what people really are gunning for is they want to talk to someone face to face,

00:43:38.720 | slightly older, get some, I think in that interpersonal, just want to be heard, like someone to hear them out,

00:43:44.480 | you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The challenge is figuring out how do you get there, I guess. Yeah. Yes.

00:43:49.280 | And then kind of also like what kind of minister do you need to be to, to be able to engage in this industry is

00:43:55.520 | like patient, you know, a lot of wisdom, you know, um, good listener, probably helps if you're a little

00:44:02.720 | older, like not just, you know, one or two years out of college. Yeah. Yeah. And not like maybe so hungry

00:44:08.320 | for them to like join something, but to just really, or for them to even like you. Yeah. You just want to

00:44:13.280 | bless them. Yeah. I think people can, can tell if you don't hear that or not. Any thoughts on how,

00:44:19.680 | I mean, this is very new. Um, but as you, as we see kind of envision it going forward, any thoughts on

00:44:24.800 | how it affects sort of the way we think about college ministry and like, I don't know. I mean,

00:44:29.520 | chances are you guys will be back in college ministry at some point. Um, any thoughts on like,

00:44:33.200 | okay, given that we have this next group, it makes me think about college ministry differently in some way.

00:44:38.800 | I think it could be, um, like if I were a college staff, college minister, I think it can be alleviating

00:44:47.760 | in some ways. Um, because I mean, it's always true that you feel nervous. You feel nervous about

00:44:58.320 | the people that you're trying to raise up. You're reaching out to them. You're pouring into them and

00:45:03.040 | you're, you want to bless them, but at the same time, you really hope that they'll catch the vision.

00:45:09.120 | They'll join us, you know, all this, all this kind of stuff, this kind of high bar stuff. And, um,

00:45:15.680 | I remember feeling that way when I was doing college ministry, like feeling like nervous, man,

00:45:19.600 | I don't know if these people are going to become those kinds of people. And then you feel down on

00:45:25.040 | yourself or you feel insecure and all these kinds of, I think a lot of that could be alleviated.

00:45:28.880 | If you know that let's give them more time, like, because like by the time like second semester junior

00:45:36.240 | year rolls around, you're like, oh shoot, you know, where is this person? And like, but, um, you know,

00:45:41.440 | you have more time. Um, even like with our networks of spread apart now, um, even if they don't stay

00:45:47.840 | here in my city, but they go somewhere else, then I think we'll have a chance to like continue to

00:45:53.440 | minister to them even after college at a pace that they are okay with, you know? And I think that's kind

00:45:59.280 | of like, I think that would be the, the relieving thing, um, for let's say a college minister.

00:46:05.040 | It would require a lot more like trust and surrender kind of like what we did earlier,

00:46:11.200 | you know, and, and prayer. I think God's actually still working.

00:46:14.240 | Yeah. I think something that I learned, um, cause I felt that when I was in college ministry,

00:46:19.680 | but then when I was doing youth ministry, like once they graduated, graduate high school,

00:46:25.200 | like who knows where they're going to go. But it was very clear to me as a youth minister that

00:46:29.920 | during their years in high school, like I want to share the gospel with them, love on them. Um,

00:46:35.840 | hopefully they'll become a Christian. Um, but even if they don't become a Christian in high school, like

00:46:42.080 | positive experience of Christianity, you know, and of Christians and, um, and then hopefully in college

00:46:48.160 | they'll, you know, seek God and become a Christian, but ultimately it's about like saving souls. And so

00:46:54.480 | I feel like with Acts 2 next and kind of like a slower on-ramp, like as a college minister, I don't have to

00:47:02.400 | have that kind of pressure, like, you know, like they need to make it become a Christian and just be

00:47:08.080 | disciple and stay at our church, like kind of thing. But, um, the goal is okay. Yeah. I just want to

00:47:14.400 | pray for them and share the gospel with them. And, um, that's, hopefully they'll become a Christian,

00:47:20.640 | but it's, it doesn't have to happen in those four years, you know, that little window. Um, and so I'm

00:47:27.280 | going to do my best as a college minister to, you know, share the gospel with them and answer their

00:47:33.040 | questions and get them there. But yeah, I think that it's alleviating that kind of pressure.

00:47:38.400 | Yeah. Yeah. So just, I mean, what I'm hearing is like maybe that timetable has shifted,

00:47:42.400 | it's delayed a little bit now and that's okay, you know, or elongated, elongated. Yeah. And like,

00:47:48.320 | instead of like really just trying to focus on this person and, and, and create a lot of pressure

00:47:54.080 | or situation around that, I can actually step back in the space and I can meet other people. I can,

00:47:58.000 | I can widen the group of people that I'm concerned with and I'm keeping up to date with. And then I think

00:48:02.240 | one thing that's kind of interesting is that, um, like we can do that. Like we don't like,

00:48:06.880 | there might be other ministries where like it, you have to make use of those four years, you know,

00:48:10.720 | because like you're, you're student driven or whatever, or, you know, like you have to produce

00:48:16.000 | a certain amount of like collegiate staff at the end of it, you know, before they graduate,

00:48:20.000 | you know, you have to get them. But for us, it's like, well, we're network and we're not going anywhere.

00:48:24.400 | And you know, we, we have plenty of working people and we're, we're also doing ministry. And so,

00:48:28.640 | um, we, we actually might be, we have a unique, maybe a approach to this that, um, some other

00:48:34.720 | collegiate ministries don't. And, um, I think all that, I think the, you know, the thing that's really

00:48:40.160 | hopeful for this ministry and maybe we're not there yet because we're only six months in, but is to

00:48:46.160 | have a place for say a new grad or two years out to be able to minister to their coworker.

00:48:53.120 | And I mean, that's always been the case, but they came in and then bring them in to,

00:48:58.000 | because into our community and to our church and even start to see them grow and we can challenge

00:49:03.840 | them to serve, give them service opportunities. And through that, I think, um, that was kind of lacking,

00:49:10.240 | you know, that avenue in to our church once you graduate, once you graduated was kind of lacking.

00:49:16.080 | So I think that's, that's exciting because where we are, there's a ton of people that are

00:49:21.840 | coming in to our areas. You know, they might've graduated from some place that we're not,

00:49:26.800 | but then they end up in one of our cities. Oh man, we should do a podcast with those people

00:49:31.440 | and just ask them their experiences. Yeah. That's pretty exciting.

00:49:34.320 | Yeah. Yeah. So it's different for our church. It's new. We're in like a pioneering phase where

00:49:38.720 | you have 12 different groups are doing 12 different things, very natural for a pioneering phase,

00:49:42.720 | but, uh, but I'm very hopeful that this will turn into something. And so, um, I think everyone's

00:49:46.800 | excited to hear whether or not you're doing an x2nex at your local ministry or not. I think we're all

00:49:51.520 | very excited for, for this. Yeah. So thank you guys so much. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Thank you.

00:49:56.880 | And, uh, like, subscribe, tune in to future episodes, but thank you guys for being on this podcast.

00:50:01.680 | Thank you.

00:50:02.340 | We'll see you next time.

Ep.14 - New Ministry - Acts2 Next

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