I think that ranks top five most traumatic freshman experiences. In senior year, you realize, "Oh my gosh, I need to find a job. I'm going to move out of this place. Am I going to have friends?" One Christian after another, after we're having a conversation, we're like, "They just are hungry for this training." They have mentors, but then just being able to articulate their faith.

All right. Hello, and welcome to the official, unofficial AX2Network podcast, where we are launching lifelong kingdom workers from every college town. I'm Steven. I'm Isaiah. And today we are with Ben and Helen. Hello. Hi. Do you guys do this all the time? Do you guys wear matching sweater? I just happen to wear the same sweater.

Every third day, because I just rotate through my sweater. Is it the AX2Net sweater? Is that what it is? No, no, no. No, it's just a sweater. Yeah, it's a sweater that we got together. That sounded funny. at the same time. All right. Well, we're going to be talking about AX2Net today, but before we jump into that, this sort of new ministry that we're exploring, just tell us a bit about yourself.

Why don't you guys introduce yourselves? Maybe what year you graduated, where you graduated from, who are some of your peers around our network, and what you're doing in ministry right now? Yeah. So, graduated class of 2001, UC Berkeley. Some of my peers around the network would be like Dan Chang in Minnesota, Henry Chen in Austin, Gary Chang up in Davis, and then I think actually everyone else is here in Berkeley.

Oh, that's fun. Cool, cool, yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, I'm Helen, also class of 2001. Some of my friends in the network. Chi Sun Choi. There's Sarah Chu, who's at UIUC. Susan Iskandara, who's at Madison. Mia Wong, who's on the East Coast. And I think, yeah, the rest are here in California, at least.

Sandra and Davis. And then your younger sister is here. She's in Silicon Valley, yeah. Cool, yeah. All right. And then, so, we're kind of, um, we're in the Fit Lit program, which is, uh, Leads in training. Leads in training, yeah. So, one year, we're about six months in, yeah.

So, we've been here in Berkeley. We were in Irvine for four years. What were you doing in Irvine? We're leading the youth ministry down there. So, that was a lot of fun. Can you actually, like, maybe just briefly go over, like, your ministry resume since graduating? Like, what were the ministries you should spend?

It's long. It's, like, 24 years. Yeah, tell us a little bit. So, um, for me, I, after we graduated, I joined college ministry for a year, and then I went on missions for a year. Where? I went to Tashkent, which is in Uzbekistan. Wow. Yeah. Spent a year there.

I came back. Um, I was part of our practice ministry for a little bit, and then jumped back into college, was in college until... Practice is, uh, young adult. Right, right. Our young adult ministry, post-grad ministry. And then, um, 2014, Yeah. Um, we joined our element ministry, which is our youth group, here in Berkeley.

And then we did four years of element, and then we jumped over to... Who are some of the element kids? Oh, boy. I remember from this. Graduating class, that 12th grade class was Anna King. Wow. When we first joined, class of 2018. Yeah, Amy Lu, Beatrice. Yeah. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of them.

They're, like, everywhere now. They're everywhere. Spread out. Yeah, many of them doing youth ministry, too. And then our last class was Christine Lee. Okay. Oh, I take that back. It was Daniel Choi, so... Oh, Daniel Choi. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. 2022. Okay. 2022, yeah. Yeah. And then we went and we joined that first group that, um, started AYM, Area Youth Ministry.

Oh, wow. So reaching, reaching, reaching youth kids outside. Oh, gee. Wow. Yeah, we got to be part of that. That was fun. Two years up here in Berkeley, and then we moved down to Irvine and kind of helped, um, kind of get more kind of youth ministry traction down there in Southern California.

I remember when you guys moved to Irvine, like, that was, that was shocking. because you guys have been in Berkeley for so long. Yeah. And then Helen was such a crucial part of, like, ASP, life, and then we were all like, "Wait, are you guys really moving?" Yeah, we're so excited, though.

We spent all this church training. We were like... It was during the pandemic. Yeah, we moved in 2020. August of 2020. Oh, wow. We just started. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So our kids were like, "Yeah, let's go!" "Get me out of here!" "Get me out of here!" Yeah. Irvine's a better place to move to during the pandemic, but, yeah.

You guys overlapped in college ministry, right? Yeah, yeah. In my senior, oh, we, like... Yeah, your senior year and then the first year out. And then we did Kairos, first year out. Kairos. Yeah. That was 2012. Oh, you were part of Kairos that senior, our senior year? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, and you were part of Klaes' that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. Goodness. That was... That was great. It was fun. A lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. All right, so, um, so, now you've signed up for the Fitlit program, and through that, you guys are doing this new thing called Acts 2 Next.

Wait, wait, are you guys the oldest of the Fitlits? We are. You are? Yeah. By just a couple months, because my peer Jen Kim is... One of the Fitlits, I won't say who, but one of the Fitlits that got interviewed on this podcast. Okay. The only one hour! So that you guys are, like, the mom and dad of, like, you guys are always, like, we're...

Well, she's clearly the mom. That's her presence, right? I'm just the oldest. I'm married to mom, so I must be dad. Step dad, I guess. It is kind of fun, though, because it's, like, in the Fitlits group, there's, like, these, like, families, you know? So it's, um, there's, like, older couples, and then it's kind of a middle level, and then the young ones.

It's, like, about a decade, right? Yeah, so the youngest out of the sisters, we're 15 years apart. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's kind of neat being in the Fitlits group. 15 years apart. Wow. Yeah. So for when, like, you've been doing bivocational ministry for a long time. Well, tell us the story of, like, how you decided to go full-time at this point in your life.

Like, how'd you feel when you got the invite and things like that? Well, she really wanted to. I wanted to. And I actually have been working for a church for, like, I think this is my 16th year. Oh, okay. When my first child, when he was born, that was the year that I went full-time.

But for Ben, it was... I was a little bit more resistant. I didn't, I didn't think, so my excuse, personally, was I don't think I can cut it. And I saw all of our full-time leads and the way they lived, and I just felt like that's not who I am.

But then when I dug into that, and so I had some conversations with my leaders, and I remember feeling like, oh, I just changed jobs, and it's hard to find a job. And I had all these kind of, like, surface-level excuses. But then when it came down to it, it was kind of like, oh, I don't think I'm ready to surrender.

You know? And that was the key word. So, like, even like this past year, as I was thinking about this past year, my key word was, God's really challenging me to surrender. And in the end, it's not about competence or whether you're cut out for something. You know, it's, it's just about whether you're willing to be surrendered or not.

And then, and so that was kind of the struggle that I went through during that time, had conversations. And personally, what really moved me was seeing our foreign mission teams being sent out. And because I knew some of those people, and I knew some of the challenges that they were facing as they made that decision to go.

And I was just in tears watching the foreign mission commissioning service. And that was right around the time I was, like, deciding, initially, deciding not to do this full-time training program. And then I just felt like, man, um, I, I see them surrender and I see their joy. And, um, what am I doing?

I felt really challenged by that. So I kind of struggled with that. It was about a week and a half or so of really kind of praying and wrestling with myself and realizing, oh boy, that's kind of where I'm at. Like, I mean, Irvine is a comfortable city, you know, and, uh, And I had a great setup there.

I loved what I was doing. And, um, and then to hear kind of being like, take, to take that next step. I think that was really challenging for me. Yeah. And I think, um, different things, conversations happen. And I was like, man, that's the proper response at this time for me is, is to go ahead and say yes.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. That's a good word. Yeah. I feel like, I often feel like different points in my life. Like God is calling me to a little surrender that I'm not ready for yet. Like that's kind of, that's always been, that's kind of been a recurring motif and stuff.

So, but, um, but, um, before, I mean, let's, let's dive into your, both of your stories a little bit. Like, um, you know, how'd you come to our church? Um, and, and yeah, what made you stick around? How'd you become Christian? Like all that. Spiritual background. Yeah, spiritual background a little bit.

Yeah. Just, like, it's relevant. Yeah. Sure. I, so I, uh, came to our church, um, through an invite. Okay. Okay. So one of my best friends from high school was roommates with Amy Tung, who's also one of my peers. Okay. And, um, they were roommates. So then, and I was a spring admit, so I didn't have- Spring admit meaning you started, your first semester was in the spring semester.

Yes. But then I took extension courses in the fall. Okay. Got it. But then I didn't have like housing in the dorms. So then I was constantly over at their dorm. Um, and so I, I was like church hopping. Yeah. Um, and then Jin Kim, I think he's also one of our peers.

He had friends on that floor. So he had mentioned like, oh, I go, you know, to this church. You can, you know, he invited us, but I didn't really go. Um, and then, uh, yeah, event, we eventually, um, went with some of our dorm friends, who's also some, he, they go to our church, Henry and Dan were some of our friends from dorms.

And it was, um, it was freshman year winter. Welcome back freshman after the winter break, like a freshman dinner thing. Welcome back. Yeah. Welcome back. And then we all went like eight of us went, um, with dorm friends. And then, um, because we're all dorm friends. It's funny. Yeah.

Just kind of friends. Well, Amy's from Saratoga. So like, you know, the connections and then, uh, we went and then we had dinner. It was zone C back then, uh, had great dinner. And then the post activity was a bowling bonanza. And personally, I really love bowling. I had my own bowling ball with my name on it.

Yeah, I was on this father daughter bowling league. What? You seen a bowling league? Father daughter bowling league. Have you seen her bowling? I feel like I've only beaten her once in my league. Oh, really? What's your highest score? What's the highest score you've got? I forget, like 162 or something like that.

162? That's pretty good. Oh, wow. Okay. It's more about consistency. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, anyways, so then everyone was like, ah, I don't know if we're going to stay. We're like, okay, Dan Chang, make the decision. Are we going to all stay and go bowling? Well, it was like a group decision.

It was like, yeah. And then, Dan wasn't even Christian at that time, right? Dan Chang. Yeah, he was not. But he was coming out and then secretly inside, I was like, I hope he says yes. And then he's like, sure, yeah, let's go. So we all went. And then it's just, I personally had a blast.

And the rest of his history, he stayed. Wait, so you were church hopping, but I heard you were Mormon. I was. Is that true? Yes. I grew up Mormon. But you're church hopping at like Protestant churches? Yes. So I grew up Mormon. My dad was like a missionary and a bishop and everything.

So we were really involved. Wow. And then we stopped going my seventh grade year. Oh, okay. And then didn't go to church for a couple of years. And then 10th grade, we followed my aunt, who's a devout Christian. She immigrated from Paraguay. Came to live with us. And we followed her to church, a Presbyterian church.

So since 10th grade, I did go to like a church. And I grew up very, like, goody two-shoes. My younger sister was the rebellious one. And so even though. I feel like we need to have a podcast. Yeah, she might need to come and defend herself. But so, you know, I did dutifully go to church.

But I hated my experience. So freshman year, I was thinking, okay, I don't need to go to church because my parents are not with me to make me go. But then freshman year, my mom called me every Sunday. Oh my gosh. Wow. Are you at church? Oh, did you go to church?

So then out of guilt, I just needed to find a church. Oh wow. So that's why I was like church hopping. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so freshman year, that's how I found our church. And then started going to the fellowship. And then, you know, the church. So then how did a goody two-shoes become Christian?

Yeah, yeah. And even though I didn't like my church experience, I called myself Christian. So even when we came to our church, I called myself Christian. But I was definitely afraid that anyone would ask me about anything about my testimony or anything about Bible or gospel because I didn't know.

Wow. You knew you didn't know. Like, that's why you're afraid, I guess. Yeah, yeah. And then I think people just assumed, like, oh, she's a good girl, you know, goes to church, must be Christian, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. And I decided to actually stay at our church junior year after mission trip.

It was our first mission trip to Japan and Korea. Is that the really long one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like 70 of us went to Japan. That sounds fun. And with Pastor Ed and Kelly. And my first experience, a bunch of my peers went together. And I remember coming back like, I could do this for the rest of my life, like with my friends.

Yeah. So I think after that, I wanted to stick around. Junior year was also when I made a decision to become a real Christian. Yeah, because freshman year called myself Christian, but I knew I was a fake. And then that's when I took Course 101. So sophomore year, I just stopped calling myself a Christian.

I just asked a lot of questions. And it's very brave stuff. Yeah. And I felt really free because I'm like, hey, I don't know. And I want to ask a lot of the questions that I've been wanting to ask. And then it wasn't until junior year. Actually, it's kind of an interesting story.

Like it was seeing myself as a sinner that I had a really hard time with. But then, you know, that's the central thing, you know. So then my leader at that time is like, okay, I want you to keep a journal and call it your IT journal. Impure thoughts journal.

She's like, you just for a week. I just want you to write every impure thought, everything, like anything. Wow. Be specific. And then, so I took that, you know, being the dutiful person that I am. Yeah, I feel like most people are like, yeah, I'm good. I did that.

Wow. And I like made sure no one, you know, got it or anything. And then she said, bring that to prayer meeting. So I remember very distinctly, First Press, I brought that to prayer meeting. She said, I want you to read that and then just pray. And I started reading it, like, out loud with my head into the bench.

And I was like, in tears. Because I'm like, I'm a wicked, broken, messed up sinner. Wow. And I think that's very distinctly when I realized, like, I'm a sinner and I need forgiveness. And so, yeah, that was junior year. And I think that from there, it's just the process of lordship and sanctification, I think, became.

Wow. That reminds me of that, you know. Do you still have that journal? Can I see? I burned that. I thought it was worth asking. After you can see, just like, symbolically burn it, you know, all paid for. I've never heard of an IT journal. Was that like a thing that people did back then?

No. Or it was just, your leader just came up with that just for you? Yeah. Like, I guess, I don't know, but. It was probably externally. Yeah, because you were so good, you needed to do that. Wow. I mean, it's that whole, you know, imagine if there was a projection of all your thoughts.

Yes. For everyone to see. But just a literal exercise of that. And she was like, write names, write thoughts, just everything. Wow. But you actually did it, I think that's. Yeah. That's, yeah. That's crazy. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But how about, how about Ben? Like how did, you know, what's your story?

Yeah. So, um, my parents became Christian when I was two. Okay. And they were, uh, zealous. Um, and so I was the kid who grew up in church at church, you know, we're there like every other day, um, all night, you know, whatever, um, for various things. I, I, I remember kind of getting cynical about the church towards the end of high school because I, I just kind of started to feel like, oh, it's just the same thing as, as school.

Like every, it's just a popularity game. You know, people think you're spiritual if you're up on the, up in the front. Um, so I joined praise band, um, to do that to like, but then, you know, kind of recognized, uh, it was, my experience was pretty shallow. Um, and I remember thinking as I graduated from high school, headed to college, um, if my church experience in college is the same as this, I don't know if I want to stick around.

Um, and then I came across our church because, um, one of my high school friends, um, is Annie Song, we went to the same high school, same peer class, same graduating class. Her older brother, Jim, uh, who's in our DMV church now. He, um, he was a senior, uh, my freshman year.

And, um, so I had met him a few times, um, just various like stuff. And then, um, and then when it came time for Cal day, which is the kind of like the orient, not orientation. It's like, it's like the day that the school tries to get you to come to their school after they've accepted you.

So UC Berkeley came up. I stayed with Jim, um, and I had a blast that weekend. I stayed over at Dana house, which is our bros ministry house. Um, uh, that was the year that we, um, our church started impact. So the very first impact spring fest, um, which was kind of like a, a week long, um, like enrichment for, um, yeah, inner city, Oakland kids.

Um, and so they were up every night, just like prepping for it. And I got to see that. Yeah. And then they hosted me and I just, I mean, I'm a high school senior, you know, I've never been hosted in this way. Yeah. And I, I just had such a blast.

Yeah. I remember having really fond memories and, and then they're Christian, you know, so kind of like brought that back. And then when it was time, uh, to come to college, I realized that, well, I had a really bad case of senioritis my senior year of high school. And so, um, I received housing, but I forgot to pay the deposit.

And so I lost housing and I didn't know anything about like, oh, you can rent an apartment or anything like that. And so then in desperation, I called Jim and he's the only person I knew. And I said, Hey, uh, do you know anyone who can like, I can crash with for, you know, housing and dining said they can give me housing in about a month after school starts.

So I said, I just need a month. And then, so then he deliberated with his roommates. It was going to be a senior year. They wanted to use their place for ministry and all this kind of stuff. And then they decided to take me in. So, um, so I slept not in their closet, but in front of their closet.

I set up my bed, like, so then in order for them to get their clothes, they have to reach over my, my, you know, sleeping body, you know, kind of thing. So it was a huge inconvenience for them. I don't think I fully appreciated it at that time, but I'm so thankful.

And then all of them, they go to our church and Sunday morning is hard to wake up, you know, and, um, they have a car and they're driving to church. And so I catch a ride. And I mean, I church hopped for like all of one week after that.

I'm like, I like these guys. But I also felt like, um, well, two things, um, the church that I was attending back at home, they heard that I had checked out our church and actually the, one of the older guys took me aside and he said, Hey, um, I'm not sure about that church.

They're really different. I said, Oh, how are they different? He goes, um, I think they're really conservative was what he said. Okay. And he kind of with, you know, essentially kind of said, you know, they're very different from us. So I don't think you're going to like them. And in my head, I was like, okay, okay.

But then in my head, I was like, maybe I'm going to check this out. Because I really didn't like the church. So I was like, if it's different from this, man, I might actually like it. Give me a shot. So yeah, so that was kind of, and, um, yeah, so then I, I stuck.

And then I started calling our church home, um, freshman year, first semester. Okay. So after Thanksgiving break, I was like, mom, I'm going home. And she was not happy. Well, that's surprising. Because I heard that one of your very first experiences at our church was somewhat traumatic. What? And of certain sports outing.

Yeah. So I get asked about this question, the story a lot. Maybe this is an opportunity to set the record straight. Yeah. Yeah. Because when I heard it for the first time, you like fell and you dislocated both your shoulders. Yeah. But that's not true. That's actually not true, but it's not that far from true.

It's only half true. So it was the, um, so I'm living with these guys. It's the first week of school and our church, you know, our group is having like all sorts of welcome activities. And one of them was a sports night. Yeah. And, um, somebody had, uh, uh, left, um, a pair of basketball shorts on my bed.

And I never had owned, I don't play sports. I was never like that growing up. So, um, I was like so excited. Like, wow. I have a pair of basketball. I just took it for myself. Finders keepers. So later guys are worth my shorts. But then, um, the problem was it was like an X large or a double X large.

I forget. And it didn't have a drawstring. Oh. So it was fine when I'm walking around at home, it's pajamas or whatever. But then I decided sports night. I get to wear my new, kind of new shorts. Go. And, um, the, the game was capture the flag. And you actually wear flag football flags.

Oh, that's great. Freshman versus seniors. And, um, we know where this is going. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, I'm not very athletic. And yet, um, I got it in my head that if I run really fast, maybe I can get to that safe zone where the flags are. And as I'm running, um, I start and then full speed, top speed, like, two miles an hour.

He was a math lead, not a math lead. Were you a math major? No, I wasn't. But it was like middle school math competition. Anyway, yeah, so I'm running. And then some, uh, senior sister, and I remember it was a girl. And I don't know who it was, though, thankfully.

Okay, yeah, probably Ellen. I don't think so, but I have my, yeah, anyway. Uh, comes and, you know, pulls my flag. And that's normal. Yeah. Except my shorts are underneath that flag. Yeah. And she pulled the shorts, too. Oh! And the shorts go all the way down to my ankles.

And... Oh, she must have been mortified. Hopefully she, oh. I don't know if she noticed. Oh, she didn't notice? I may, I don't know, but... Caught up in the moment. But then I am going as fast as my little body can go, right? Yeah. So all that momentum, shorts at your ankles.

And then I fall over, face down on the, on the, on the turf field. And I had this problem where I would dislocate my shoulders, starting from middle school. Too much math. And so, um, so then when I landed, I landed on one of my shoulders and one of my shoulders popped out.

Oh! So then I'm, so, so then at this point, people usually ask me, "Hey, how come you didn't just pull your shorts up with your other hand?" And I said, "Have you ever dislocated your shoulder?" So I'm holding my shoulder, um, face down, thankfully, but my shorts are at my ankles.

And then I had a, um, a guy who was kind of like, um, like an older guy who was kind of reaching out to me. Is this massively built football player kind of, kind of guy. And, um, he saw it from, I guess, wherever he was, sidelines or something.

And then he ran. And he, very, I, I imagine. I had to save you. I was face down, so I don't actually see it, but I can also see it as like a, as it was a movie. Yeah. And he's running, and he's running parallel to my, my prone body.

And he grabs my shorts in, in one swift motion. And he grabs it and pulls it up. But the man's really strong. And he actually lifts me off the ground by my shorts. And so, oh my gosh, I never heard that part of this. Oh man. I, I didn't know what a wedgie was.

But now you do. Now you do. And so then, um. It was a baptism by fire. Is this Charlie? No, no, it's Henry. And, oh my god, oh yeah. Yeah, and then, and then he proceeded to declare in a loud voice. He gathered a group of guys around to say, there is, there is nothing to see here.

Which made everybody who, who didn't notice anything, suddenly trying to look. Anyway, um. I was not there. Yeah, okay. Yeah, thankfully. Which is why this has happened. Yeah. I think if I were there, I would've been like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. It's providence. Yeah. I think that ranks top five most traumatic freshman experience.

Yeah. I didn't realize that was your freshman year. Not even at our church. Just freshman year. That was freshman year. Freshman year, like during welcome week. First week. During welcome week, yeah. Wow. Wow. That's traumatic. But you're here. I'm still here. You're here. 27 years later, just telling the story.

Yeah. That is an awesome story. Yeah, so let that set the record straight. Yeah. Wow. That clarifies a lot of things. Yeah. That was worse than that. Does that also explain a lot of things? Yeah, actually. But we're talking about becoming Christian and why you stay in our church and everything.

Oh, yeah. Okay. We can do that really quick. We spent a lot of time. Yeah. Anyway, so you know how they say like if you're really well-churched, sometimes you have to be unsaved in order to become saved? Yeah. So that was me. I thought I knew so much. But the whole aspect of sin, my personal sinfulness was kind of just a theoretical thing.

Until freshman year, winter retreat, the pastor preached on Luke 15. And I was like, oh, I'm not the younger son. I'm not rebellious like that. But man, when he started preaching on the older son, that really hit me. Because all my life, I had been in the father's house.

But there were so many ways in which I did not understand the father's heart. Yeah. And so I didn't understand the father's heart for me. I didn't understand the father's heart for his lost children. And I didn't understand that the father wanted a relationship with me. And so all of that, and that was my rebellion.

You know, there externally, but internally, like far, far away. Yeah. And so that really broke me. That's when I made a clear salvation decision. That's when I said, oh, now I get it. Now I understand why Jesus needs to be my savior. After that, it was kind of a struggle for lordship though.

Because some of those truths that I believed and I carried growing up was so deep in me. And just the personal lack of reflection and personal lack of depth. Like that, that was, that was a challenge to really kind of continue to muck through. And, you know, so that the rest of my college experience was really an exercise of trying to get deeper, you know, be a little bit less shallow, be more thoughtful, recognize my sinfulness a little bit more.

But yeah, that's kind of how that happened. And really it was like the first year after college where I experienced, I think in some ways that first step of like genuine lordship. And, you know, they say that after college is kind of when the rubber finally hits the road.

Yeah, you're like writing checks. Yeah, yeah, you're writing checks and now you have to finally cash them. And I realized, wow, I don't have much stored up in the bank. And so I think that was an experience of really struggling with, okay, what do I really believe? And what does, what does that implication for my life?

So I spent that year in Tashkent. I initially went, I remember my first thought of why I wanted to go, I just wanted to get away. I wanted to get away from all these people that I thought had all these expectations for me. And I just wanted some space to like, just try to live my life for God and to really wrestle with God and some of these truths that I was kind of realizing about myself.

And I think that's essentially what happened because there was time and space to read, to pray, to kind of struggle and wrestle. And I didn't have this, you know, a lot of people that I was so like face saving in front of, not, they weren't there with me per se.

So I think that was a really, man, God really used that time to kind of show me. And that's, I made a Lordship decision while I was, so it was kind of odd, like, here's a missionary. Becoming a Christian. Yay. Finally. Actually that, that year that he was gone, because I mean, I liked him, but I don't think he knew that I liked you.

But during that time, it was first year after one year of college staff. And then I was, um, just running on empty, like I was doing all the right things, but just feeling really hollow. And then that second year, um, I think was when I really was able to struggle with that and did a lot of reading and flexing and praying.

And, um, that, I think that's when I also made a, um, Lordship decision. Yeah. So you're saying it helped that he was away or? That, that probably helped too. That's part of the struggle. Angst. Yeah. Yeah. Just distraction and everything gone. Um, yeah. Well, that's interesting because you guys both had like, um, a moment, like in your college, you know, I feel like there's always these windows of opportunity where people may have a new spiritual openness or a new spiritual understanding of who they are and before God.

And there's like a significant move that happens there, but then post-grad, like after you graduate, there's another moment, another window of opportunity there as well. Well, that where there's like openness and kind of like a who am I and a re-examining of everything. Right. Yeah. Which is a good segue into today's topic.

Perfect. Yeah. Acts 2 next, which is a new, kind of a new ministry for, that we started and something that the FitLit you guys have been trying to tackle. So, um, because I think so far it's been sort of your college student and then your staff. And I think what we're seeing is, okay, but those first three years, it is this very kind of tumultuous, tumultuous kind of interesting time or lots changing and you're trying to adapt to this new reality after you graduate and next is sort of a, in some ways like a response to that.

But maybe you guys could just explain what is Acts 2 next, um, and kind of what was the impetus, at least in your understanding, because you guys have been doing a lot of stuff with Acts 2 next. Yeah, I think, um, I think, okay, so what is Acts 2 next?

Acts 2 next is, um, a ministry that tries to, um, that is reaching out to people from senior year of college through maybe the third year out of college. Um, and that group of people, perhaps many of them did not go through four years of our college ministry, or some of them did, but they, you know, they're kind of in and out.

And for one, one reason or another, um, a year or two after graduation, they're not really quite ready to like join our staff team or they like us, but they're kind of distant, they're busy, you know, whatever. Yeah. And so it's kind of a group of folks that we really want to, um, minister to and pour into and raise them up.

Well, one, you know, share the gospel with and become Christian, of course, but then if they are Christian, then we want to raise them up to see a particular picture of Christian life as their life as a minister. Um, and by doing that, we can, it's kind of like a slightly, I don't want to say it negatively, but I do, you know, a slower on ramp into our staff life.

Yeah. I don't think that's the same negative either. I think some people appreciate that because they're like, I'm not, it's almost, you know, I'm not ready for like zero to a hundred. Yeah. But if I, you know, have a longer on ramp. I want some time to like kind of get to know you guys and figure out this is what I want to do.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's also, I think what we've been seeing is, um, some people just have more time after college. Yeah. Just causes our, when we were in college, it was just like, like you never studied, you just, we were just like, you don't go to college and you're just like, woo, you know, but nowadays it's so competitive, people are like joining all kinds of clubs and stuff.

It's a little bit different and it's like after college, that's kind of when people go, Oh, what was all that for? Yeah. I now have all this time. What am I doing with it? And so maybe for a lot of people, those existential questions that they're asking that maybe some more people used to ask freshman year.

of college or sophomore year of college. Yeah. Or they're, they're not, their head's still down through all the way through college. They're not really asking those questions until maybe their first or second year out of college or maybe even at the tail end of senior year. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. And I feel like maybe in the past, the way we did ministry and stuff was sort of like, okay, if you're not asking those right now, like you don't really fit in anywhere. And then if you're asking it later, you don't really fit anywhere either, you know? And so it's kind of too late.

We don't have like a way to like, yeah, you know, I mean, you minister to a lot of your, um, I remember you minister to a lot of your friends, your senior year, right? So it's kind of like that picture, but that's kind of, I feel like that was rare at our church.

Yeah. I mean, I do think sort of the prevailing wisdom, at least when we were undergrads is college is when you have time and it's when you should think about these things. Cause when you graduate, it's just too busy. And I mean, it is busy when you graduate, but I think college has just changed now.

So now that calculus is kind of, it's shifted. So now it's like, no, maybe when you graduate is the time, it's time. And then I mean, with the job market as it is, some people got some, um, long period before they even start work. So yeah. Yeah. Another aspect is, um, like college, you kind of have community already there, like dorm life or clubs.

Um, and then, you know, like you're studying to get out, but then senior year you realize, oh my gosh, like I need to find a job. I like, I'm going to move out of this place. Like, am I going to have friends? Like all my friends are going to other places for jobs, like I'm moving by myself.

So I think senior year after that kind of like, um, rat race grind is going to halt soon. Then they're asking all these questions. Yeah. And it's hard to make friends once you graduate. Oh yeah. It's not as easy as college for sure. Yeah. There's so much of the campus that just serves that up for you.

Yeah. And so then they graduate and they feel bereft, you know, they might have a great job in it, but they're in a new city and they don't have any family or friends there. And like coworkers are not the same kind of friends that like, you know, so, um, I think one, one other thing is like in general, people are a lot less connected.

Yeah. Right. And so the fastest growing household is household one. Yeah. So then they don't have anyone to like even ask a basic question. Like, like everything is, all of your answers come online from these like, you know, faceless articles. And, um, and I think people are, are really hungry for connection during that period too.

Yeah. So actually next is sort of coming in and filling that need, I guess. That's a, that's definitely the felt need. Trying to figure out what shape this needs to be. Yeah. To, to kind of meet that need. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what, what have you guys been doing?

Like, what, what have you guys been engaging in trying to shape this new ministry or, or give shape to it? And what are the things you guys, what are the things you guys have primarily been doing to do that? Yeah. So, um, everyone who is like trying to head up an acts to next group in our church across our network.

Um, if you ask them and there's like 12 people, you'll get 12 different answers right now. Everyone's just kind of feeling things out. All they know is this is kind of the age range and whatever, like, but for us, um, because, um, we're a lot more mobile this year.

Um, so one of the things that we've been kind of doing is, uh, we've been hitting campuses. Um, so we've been going on various trips for one reason or another. Um, but, uh, yeah, so we call them ERTs evangelistic road trips. Um, we spent a good chunk of time in New York.

Um, we went through a couple of campuses in the Midwest. Um, we went to Atlanta, um, about a month ago. And, um, and then, uh, some of the, um, some of our folks went to, um, Southern California. So I think for us, one of the things that we're trying to tackle is, um, understand, uh, as a senior in college, like, what do you feel like you need as you project your future?

Yeah. And, um, it's interesting because a lot of them are saying, you know, I think career, there's a lot of things out there. No, there's no one to tell me how to do relationships. I don't know how to keep, am I going to lose my friend? Like this whole question of friends, like, I think that's a big need, but it's also kind of, you know, um, it, it's not something that, um, people are talking about a whole lot.

Um, so I think that's, so we go out, we, we collect some data, we do surveys. Um, we try to make some good connections with people. Sometimes we will go to a campus and we'll just, um, have like Bible studies, like, uh, like a 50, Hey, you interested in a 15 minute Bible study.

Um, and then we'll just kind of go through maybe like the rich full text and Luke or something like that. And just kind of peak, see where people's spiritual interest is, especially as like seniors in college. And then, um, and talk to a lot of people and as we do that, I think, um, the people with whom we've had really good connections on their campus, we can actually continue that conversation when we come back home.

And so whether it's like, uh, sometimes we'll invite them to our coaching session, uh, we'll invite them to a webinar about job search or something like that. Other times it's just straight up like, Hey, um, you want to chat about that thing that you shared with me about when, when I was out there.

And then they'll set up like a 30 minute meeting. And some of those conversations have been kind of ongoing. Um, I think there's even like, um, kind of course, one-on-one Bible study evangelistic kind of, um, things that are starting up. So that's some of the things that we've seen.

So you've been more in like a, almost like a data gathering, surveying, and then like an online kind of that this is taking. Yeah. What, what are some things you've been learning through that? I mean, you've seen a variety of campuses different in each context, or is there like some, some similarities that are sort of popping up?

Yeah, definitely. Um, there's a variety, uh, some of the campuses and these are generalities of course. And you know, you can, I don't know, I don't know that we are such a great data collection, you know, organization, but from our experiences, um, there are some campuses where we were overwhelmed by the number of people who are spiritually interested in the other places where people are just kind of more, you know, tepid.

Um, and it's, it's interesting that, um, uh, you would feel that way. You would think that like people are all so different and they're all kind of evenly spread up, but it's, it's not, you know, and it's like a campus culture, like there's a campus culture, uh, openness or maybe hostility or like blase or whatever.

So that's definitely true. Yeah. I think, um, just talking to college students at campuses, these new campuses, like we meet Christians, um, plugged in, you know, they're being discipled, but, um, like one Christian after another, we've, after we're having conversations, we're like, they just are hungry for just training or they have mentors, but then like just being able to articulate their faith or, um, being trained in apologetics, like it's not something that they're regularly getting, like they might be reading the Bible, but in terms of, um, being able to persuade or being able to articulate and, um, explain Christianity or just these different questions, like that's a need that we saw or, um, yeah.

So, or there's a campus that as we were doing the surveys, we see that many of them have never heard the gospel, you know? So, um, I think just going, having these times where we can, we're surveying and just having conversations and we're kind of armed with just different questions that we might ask on a campus, um, it's, it's been very eye-opening, um, recently because we, we tried to, uh, we kind of distilled it down to three different areas or topics, uh, for X2NEX, like career, um, and then adulting or adulthood, and then faith.

So, um, on our website, we kind of categorized in that way. And on, for the web, we try to, on a regular basis, um, have something to, uh, uh, that caters to each of those, um, areas. Um, but I think for postgrads, many of them, like, they might be graduating from grad school or they have a job, but, um, it seems like they just want an older, stable.

A lot of them talk about just wanting somebody to talk to. Talk to, like, just a mental, like, am I going in the right direction? Like, what, from your experience, like, how has it been? Or, you know, like that kind of conversation. Whereas in, like, juniors and seniors that we're meeting on campus, like, who are going to graduate, like, they're kind of like, how do I write a resume?

You know? It's like that, those kind of needs. Yeah. Um, that's interesting. So those three topics, I think, um, in terms of, like, drawing somebody in with one of those topics, I actually think that from what we've seen, um, like, we, we put on these webinars, um, online and, um, the career type of webinars, even though they said, oh, we're good on career.

We really want adulthood or those kinds of topics. People don't sign up for those. People sign up for the career ones. So I think that's just an easier step in lower barrier. Yeah. And then I think the adulthood, they want to, they want to talk to someone who they can kind of trust.

Yeah. So it's kind of hard to come in cold to something like that. And then faith for sure. Right. Someone that you've had a really good conversation with. So I think that's kind of the progression that we're kind of starting to feel. Um, but, uh, even a totally cold contact, let's say they received a survey for 30 seconds and then they got a candy bar out of it or something and we never see them again.

But one of the things is if somehow we can get them into some kind of a coaching conversation, um, those conversations tend to be very personal, you know, and, and they reveal a lot about themselves and you reveal, and then there's a connection there. And, um, I think people, because people are so hungry for connection, I think, um, if that can happen, then, um, then you can really start to build that relationship.

It's, it's not so hard. It's that initial first step. That's interesting. Yeah. So it seems like it calls for something like kind of hybrid where like the lower barrier entry, maybe just clear add value. It's just like a clear thing, but then what people really are gunning for is they want to talk to someone face to face, slightly older, get some, I think in that interpersonal, just want to be heard, like someone to hear them out, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The challenge is figuring out how do you get there, I guess. Yeah. Yes. And then kind of also like what kind of minister do you need to be to, to be able to engage in this industry is like patient, you know, a lot of wisdom, you know, um, good listener, probably helps if you're a little older, like not just, you know, one or two years out of college.

Yeah. Yeah. And not like maybe so hungry for them to like join something, but to just really, or for them to even like you. Yeah. You just want to bless them. Yeah. I think people can, can tell if you don't hear that or not. Any thoughts on how, I mean, this is very new.

Um, but as you, as we see kind of envision it going forward, any thoughts on how it affects sort of the way we think about college ministry and like, I don't know. I mean, chances are you guys will be back in college ministry at some point. Um, any thoughts on like, okay, given that we have this next group, it makes me think about college ministry differently in some way.

I think it could be, um, like if I were a college staff, college minister, I think it can be alleviating in some ways. Um, because I mean, it's always true that you feel nervous. You feel nervous about the people that you're trying to raise up. You're reaching out to them.

You're pouring into them and you're, you want to bless them, but at the same time, you really hope that they'll catch the vision. They'll join us, you know, all this, all this kind of stuff, this kind of high bar stuff. And, um, I remember feeling that way when I was doing college ministry, like feeling like nervous, man, I don't know if these people are going to become those kinds of people.

And then you feel down on yourself or you feel insecure and all these kinds of, I think a lot of that could be alleviated. If you know that let's give them more time, like, because like by the time like second semester junior year rolls around, you're like, oh shoot, you know, where is this person?

And like, but, um, you know, you have more time. Um, even like with our networks of spread apart now, um, even if they don't stay here in my city, but they go somewhere else, then I think we'll have a chance to like continue to minister to them even after college at a pace that they are okay with, you know?

And I think that's kind of like, I think that would be the, the relieving thing, um, for let's say a college minister. It would require a lot more like trust and surrender kind of like what we did earlier, you know, and, and prayer. I think God's actually still working.

Yeah. I think something that I learned, um, cause I felt that when I was in college ministry, but then when I was doing youth ministry, like once they graduated, graduate high school, like who knows where they're going to go. But it was very clear to me as a youth minister that during their years in high school, like I want to share the gospel with them, love on them.

Um, hopefully they'll become a Christian. Um, but even if they don't become a Christian in high school, like positive experience of Christianity, you know, and of Christians and, um, and then hopefully in college they'll, you know, seek God and become a Christian, but ultimately it's about like saving souls.

And so I feel like with Acts 2 next and kind of like a slower on-ramp, like as a college minister, I don't have to have that kind of pressure, like, you know, like they need to make it become a Christian and just be disciple and stay at our church, like kind of thing.

But, um, the goal is okay. Yeah. I just want to pray for them and share the gospel with them. And, um, that's, hopefully they'll become a Christian, but it's, it doesn't have to happen in those four years, you know, that little window. Um, and so I'm going to do my best as a college minister to, you know, share the gospel with them and answer their questions and get them there.

But yeah, I think that it's alleviating that kind of pressure. Yeah. Yeah. So just, I mean, what I'm hearing is like maybe that timetable has shifted, it's delayed a little bit now and that's okay, you know, or elongated, elongated. Yeah. And like, instead of like really just trying to focus on this person and, and, and create a lot of pressure or situation around that, I can actually step back in the space and I can meet other people.

I can, I can widen the group of people that I'm concerned with and I'm keeping up to date with. And then I think one thing that's kind of interesting is that, um, like we can do that. Like we don't like, there might be other ministries where like it, you have to make use of those four years, you know, because like you're, you're student driven or whatever, or, you know, like you have to produce a certain amount of like collegiate staff at the end of it, you know, before they graduate, you know, you have to get them.

But for us, it's like, well, we're network and we're not going anywhere. And you know, we, we have plenty of working people and we're, we're also doing ministry. And so, um, we, we actually might be, we have a unique, maybe a approach to this that, um, some other collegiate ministries don't.

And, um, I think all that, I think the, you know, the thing that's really hopeful for this ministry and maybe we're not there yet because we're only six months in, but is to have a place for say a new grad or two years out to be able to minister to their coworker.

And I mean, that's always been the case, but they came in and then bring them in to, because into our community and to our church and even start to see them grow and we can challenge them to serve, give them service opportunities. And through that, I think, um, that was kind of lacking, you know, that avenue in to our church once you graduate, once you graduated was kind of lacking.

So I think that's, that's exciting because where we are, there's a ton of people that are coming in to our areas. You know, they might've graduated from some place that we're not, but then they end up in one of our cities. Oh man, we should do a podcast with those people and just ask them their experiences.

Yeah. That's pretty exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So it's different for our church. It's new. We're in like a pioneering phase where you have 12 different groups are doing 12 different things, very natural for a pioneering phase, but, uh, but I'm very hopeful that this will turn into something. And so, um, I think everyone's excited to hear whether or not you're doing an x2nex at your local ministry or not.

I think we're all very excited for, for this. Yeah. So thank you guys so much. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Thank you. And, uh, like, subscribe, tune in to future episodes, but thank you guys for being on this podcast. Thank you. We'll see you next time.