How To Be A Creative: UX Design Vs Digital Design

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.580 | - You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs,

00:00:08.960 | where we give you practical insights into jobs and careers.

00:00:12.700 | I'm Tim Chen, and today we're talking about

00:00:15.200 | how to be a digital designer.

00:00:17.920 | For the majority of my career,

00:00:19.240 | my focus has been on delivering

00:00:20.720 | the best web experiences for our customers.

00:00:23.640 | And I do this by owning the user experience

00:00:25.580 | and design of websites for major brands,

00:00:27.800 | like LinkedIn, Logitech, Cisco, Fortinet, and NetApp.

00:00:31.080 | Now, when it comes to opinions

00:00:34.080 | about what good web design is,

00:00:36.320 | you'll often hear someone say,

00:00:37.840 | "Oh, just go make your website look like Apple."

00:00:40.400 | Now, Apple does have fantastic and stunning-looking

00:00:44.040 | marketing material and industrial product designs.

00:00:47.400 | However, you as an outsider have very limited view

00:00:51.360 | into what parts of the website actually performs well.

00:00:54.200 | So just borrowing their design

00:00:56.120 | doesn't mean it'll succeed for you.

00:00:57.920 | I'm a firm believer that every pixel has to have a purpose.

00:01:03.180 | It doesn't matter if it's a decision

00:01:04.660 | about color or typography.

00:01:07.020 | It doesn't matter if it's an illustration or photography,

00:01:10.200 | or a philosophical debate on how simple or complex

00:01:13.360 | to make a webpage because you have too much to say.

00:01:16.160 | Everything you decide to put on a website

00:01:18.400 | should be done intentionally.

00:01:21.240 | A good web design engages a visitor,

00:01:23.840 | compels them to take action

00:01:25.480 | with the least amount of clicks possible,

00:01:27.820 | and can be backed by data.

00:01:29.620 | I have a huge amount of respect and love

00:01:32.800 | for the field of digital design and user experience.

00:01:35.680 | It truly is as much science as it is art.

00:01:38.480 | So if you've ever considered a career in digital design,

00:01:42.720 | or you're curious how to transition

00:01:44.100 | to different opportunities within the field,

00:01:46.200 | then this episode is for you.

00:01:48.520 | Today, we're going to have a conversation

00:01:50.400 | with Janelle Chandler.

00:01:52.160 | She's the VP of creative and user experience

00:01:54.160 | at Qualified Digital.

00:01:56.240 | In this video, she's going to give us practical insights

00:01:58.960 | about topics like the differences

00:02:00.880 | between UX and visual design,

00:02:03.360 | tips to ensure web development builds what you designed,

00:02:06.760 | and then we're going to talk about Janelle's

00:02:08.240 | own career journey and how she deals with criticism

00:02:11.480 | and imposter syndrome.

00:02:13.480 | All right, let's get started.

00:02:15.200 | Hey guys, today we're going to talk about everything

00:02:17.460 | around how to be a creative and how to be a designer.

00:02:20.460 | Joining us today is Janelle Chandler.

00:02:22.340 | Janelle, how are you doing?

00:02:23.700 | - I'm good, Tim, how are you?

00:02:25.360 | - I'm doing really good.

00:02:26.620 | Janelle, I've always really deeply admired

00:02:29.940 | and respected how you do your craft.

00:02:33.220 | Of course, quality of work and your creativity,

00:02:35.700 | your range is all there, but I think at the end of the day,

00:02:38.940 | what always resonates with me is you as a human.

00:02:41.100 | Like you're an empathetic individual,

00:02:43.020 | you're just cool to work with,

00:02:44.180 | and that really kind of resonates

00:02:45.900 | in your design, quite frankly.

00:02:47.660 | So can you tell us a little bit about

00:02:48.940 | what you're doing right now and how long

00:02:50.980 | you've been doing it and maybe your journey

00:02:52.340 | to how you got here?

00:02:53.700 | - Yeah, so right now I work for a startup agency

00:02:58.700 | called Qualified Digital,

00:03:00.580 | and I'm VP of Creative End User Experience.

00:03:03.980 | So that means like a lot of different things,

00:03:07.060 | but if I kind of boil it down, like you said,

00:03:11.100 | the main part is quality of work

00:03:13.700 | that comes out of the agency.

00:03:16.460 | So we do website designs, mobile app designs,

00:03:20.340 | any kind of digital experience,

00:03:22.540 | and like really creating a beautiful experience

00:03:26.420 | that's meaningful.

00:03:27.340 | So that's like one part.

00:03:29.100 | And then the second part is I'm more,

00:03:33.140 | a little more focused right now on like creating teams,

00:03:36.980 | building teams, building culture within the creative teams,

00:03:40.460 | and sort of how that kind of levels up to the business

00:03:45.580 | and how that sort of magic all happens.

00:03:48.540 | - And so let's actually talk about that a little bit

00:03:51.100 | before we get to your journey,

00:03:52.060 | 'cause I think building a team and what you look for

00:03:55.260 | is really important.

00:03:56.340 | And quite frankly, design as a category

00:03:58.700 | is really, really broad with many applications.

00:04:01.540 | And so can you maybe tell us about like the common types

00:04:04.460 | of design that you interact with

00:04:07.020 | or that you personally execute,

00:04:08.460 | and then what maybe you're looking for in designers?

00:04:11.540 | They could be from early career to very senior.

00:04:15.980 | - Yeah, so the type of design for this agency specifically,

00:04:20.980 | it kind of boils down into user experience

00:04:24.860 | and then visual design.

00:04:26.460 | And then there's like subcategories within those.

00:04:29.780 | So typically they don't mix,

00:04:32.660 | but sometimes you also might have a hybrid person.

00:04:36.300 | But for user experience,

00:04:38.300 | these are the type of people who,

00:04:41.140 | I kind of relate it to our architecture.

00:04:43.220 | They like to draw the blueprints.

00:04:45.100 | They're into the requirements, the spec work,

00:04:49.140 | the functionality, like how are we going to make a plan

00:04:53.380 | to build this?

00:04:55.020 | So kind of like job titles in those would be

00:04:57.820 | like a UX researcher, a UX designer,

00:05:01.780 | sometimes product designer.

00:05:05.620 | And then on the visual side, which is more my sweet spot,

00:05:09.700 | you'll have your visual designers, your branding designers.

00:05:14.620 | So we're more responsible for the look and feel,

00:05:19.340 | the typography, the color, also the experience too.

00:05:23.940 | Like when you're scrolling through a site,

00:05:26.140 | do things change, do colors change?

00:05:28.460 | How is the type read?

00:05:30.660 | So those are kind of the two different groupings.

00:05:33.780 | Personally where I sit is sort of in the middle.

00:05:36.340 | I like to figure out the plan

00:05:38.340 | and I also like to make it feel good, come alive,

00:05:41.860 | like you're really experiencing it from start to finish.

00:05:45.180 | And then I think your second question was around

00:05:49.580 | the level of talent.

00:05:52.180 | So at QD, because we're so small,

00:05:58.020 | we tend to right now hire like senior level designers

00:06:02.460 | and above just because the work is so in depth

00:06:07.180 | and fast paced, it's very hard to train.

00:06:09.900 | But we'll hire from like a senior

00:06:12.620 | or a lead director level to VP level.

00:06:17.100 | And basically that means you know how to work

00:06:21.060 | on a project from start to finish,

00:06:23.500 | your client facing, all the ins and outs.

00:06:27.900 | So you're really focused on the challenge at hand

00:06:31.840 | versus the process.

00:06:33.220 | You're focused on what's the best experience

00:06:36.780 | I'm making for this customer

00:06:41.340 | versus you know, like how do I get from A to B?

00:06:45.980 | You're focused on more of the challenge.

00:06:48.780 | - So that's an interesting space to be hiring for

00:06:51.740 | 'cause a resume can look really, really good, right?

00:06:54.940 | But you don't really know what you're gonna get

00:06:57.020 | until you see it in practice,

00:06:58.360 | especially at the senior levels.

00:06:59.740 | Like how long have they been away

00:07:01.480 | from doing actual hands-on work, right?

00:07:03.540 | So how do you go through and kind of process that,

00:07:06.220 | evaluate a talent and the whole gamut?

00:07:09.400 | - Okay, it's super hard, super hard right now too

00:07:12.600 | because like, so we're hiring too.

00:07:15.920 | So the pool of talent out there ranges

00:07:19.240 | from people who are in the weeds of work

00:07:22.680 | to you know, senior talent

00:07:25.400 | who hasn't actually designed anything for years.

00:07:29.680 | And also now that we're into like AI,

00:07:32.080 | like we've even seen portfolios

00:07:34.040 | that are literally done by AI.

00:07:37.340 | And it's like, "Hey, you're cheating now."

00:07:39.340 | (laughing)

00:07:42.400 | What we look for is well, with every creative person,

00:07:46.580 | you have to have a portfolio

00:07:48.640 | and you're not judged solely on your portfolio.

00:07:52.160 | You're going to have to explain your role,

00:07:54.480 | your contribution and that will determine

00:07:58.360 | like what level you're at at the agency for us.

00:08:02.040 | So if you're talking more high level,

00:08:04.920 | you orchestrated the team, you may be too senior for us.

00:08:09.040 | If you orchestrated the team and you're also in the weeds,

00:08:12.480 | you're in Figma, you're in, no one uses sketch anymore,

00:08:16.200 | but like you know the lingo, you know how to do things.

00:08:21.200 | You're kind of on the right track for us.

00:08:24.680 | Our agency is like, no matter what your level is,

00:08:29.280 | you're still gonna be the individual contributor.

00:08:33.080 | And a lot of people here really like that

00:08:36.780 | because you don't lose your craft.

00:08:39.280 | It's a lot of responsibility,

00:08:40.780 | but you're still in the weeds with everyone else.

00:08:43.360 | You're taking out the trash too.

00:08:46.040 | - Yeah, I think that's a really, really good perspective.

00:08:48.720 | I think, I agree with you actually,

00:08:50.520 | not even just in design.

00:08:52.200 | Right now, as I'm looking at roles I'm consulting,

00:08:54.760 | it's very similar things.

00:08:55.840 | Like you gotta walk the walk and talk the talk, right?

00:08:58.640 | And then oftentimes, like even working with you,

00:09:01.120 | like you lead the strategy, you kind of do the framework,

00:09:03.220 | but like even for you to be able to effectively

00:09:05.300 | handle it off to someone,

00:09:06.240 | like you're always creating a really high quality template

00:09:08.940 | for someone to follow.

00:09:09.780 | So there really is that practical application of the job

00:09:13.140 | to make the process more efficient.

00:09:15.400 | - Yeah, and we're seeing that too,

00:09:17.280 | like I'm seeing that specifically with new clients

00:09:20.960 | that we're having, even old clients that we're having,

00:09:23.640 | even just the way the industry,

00:09:26.200 | like design and tech is shaping.

00:09:28.940 | Like back in the day, you used to have creative directors

00:09:33.320 | who would probably spend months with you just talking vision

00:09:38.320 | and that's all they did.

00:09:40.000 | And they had their team like execute.

00:09:42.380 | Now that doesn't fly.

00:09:43.960 | Like you have to be talking vision

00:09:46.800 | and then let's see your output

00:09:48.500 | and your output has to also be quality

00:09:51.400 | with a great team that also contributes to that.

00:09:54.560 | So it's definitely changing a lot.

00:09:58.600 | - Yeah, and earlier you were talking about

00:10:00.600 | obviously leading us into all the different types

00:10:02.680 | of creative you use, like user experience, UX,

00:10:04.840 | usability and design.

00:10:06.720 | Now, how easy is it, not easy is the wrong word,

00:10:09.840 | but how feasible is it for someone to change disciplines?

00:10:13.120 | So let's say you're not at the web production level.

00:10:15.960 | Let's say you are, let's say a web designer

00:10:18.200 | or maybe you're an application design

00:10:20.240 | for software, let's say.

00:10:21.720 | How easy is it to take that skill

00:10:23.840 | and translate over into web design or usability or UX?

00:10:26.480 | 'Cause the disciplines are a little different, right?

00:10:28.480 | So they're a little nuanced.

00:10:30.160 | - They're different mindset,

00:10:32.600 | but the foundation at its core is the same.

00:10:36.240 | Like, regardless of what type of designer you are,

00:10:40.420 | you're creating something for a user.

00:10:43.160 | Whether you're a like user experience person,

00:10:47.640 | you're an advocate for the user, that's your focus.

00:10:50.680 | Same thing with like visual design, motion design,

00:10:53.600 | whatever it is, like you're doing this

00:10:56.480 | for the actual user to enjoy the experience.

00:10:59.400 | So foundation is the same.

00:11:01.300 | A lot of people do sort of either overlap

00:11:05.520 | or in different times of their career will be like,

00:11:09.320 | like I know me personally, I started out visual design.

00:11:12.560 | I probably did that for like six years and got sick of it.

00:11:16.400 | I was like, I'm just tired

00:11:18.120 | and switched completely over to UX.

00:11:20.640 | You just pick up more skills and tools.

00:11:25.200 | And then eventually I moved back to visual design

00:11:28.140 | and it was sort of a hybrid.

00:11:29.680 | You can switch around, you can change.

00:11:33.840 | It's actually more beneficial for the company

00:11:37.000 | and yourself to be able to speak like holistically

00:11:40.520 | about things, but it is a different mindset.

00:11:46.520 | Because you're going from like straight blueprints

00:11:50.920 | to like, I'll speak in like architecture terms,

00:11:55.920 | but like you're going from like blueprints

00:11:58.680 | to designing the interior of the house.

00:12:01.320 | Different mechanics, but foundation is pretty much the same.

00:12:05.240 | - And so actually, if you don't mind,

00:12:06.560 | just maybe defining it for the user,

00:12:08.320 | like classical visual design versus UX,

00:12:11.280 | like what's the difference?

00:12:13.240 | - Yeah, so, okay, I like talking about this

00:12:15.280 | because I think we've talked a little bit.

00:12:18.520 | I do a lot of mentorship for bootcampers

00:12:21.720 | and they don't know what to call themselves a lot of times.

00:12:25.120 | So I define it by the deliverables at hand.

00:12:30.040 | So user experience, you'll do things from personas,

00:12:34.280 | researching audience types, wireframes.

00:12:42.220 | You'll probably make like low fidelity prototypes.

00:12:46.300 | You'll do user testing,

00:12:48.620 | sort of just the research aspect of it.

00:12:54.020 | Visual design is all of the things that you can see,

00:12:57.360 | like the pretty stuff, the fonts, the colors,

00:13:01.500 | sometimes the logos, the way you experience a page,

00:13:08.180 | the transitions, the motion.

00:13:11.180 | So it's all about the front end, the visual aspect of it.

00:13:16.180 | - Yeah, I want to double down on that

00:13:19.100 | 'cause I totally love what you said

00:13:20.780 | about distinguishing like UX as the blueprint foundation.

00:13:24.500 | Like I'm not a designer by trade at all.

00:13:26.260 | Like if anyone pays me to design,

00:13:28.060 | like they're in serious trouble.

00:13:29.460 | But the principles of UX,

00:13:31.140 | like I definitely utilize

00:13:32.540 | from a web marketing strategy point of view.

00:13:33.980 | Like the tools I use, you're gonna laugh,

00:13:37.020 | it used to be MS Paint drawing 16 bit colors.

00:13:39.540 | And then like now I'm like using PowerPoint

00:13:41.420 | or like Google Slides, right?

00:13:42.900 | But the idea of like putting your thoughts on a paper

00:13:45.540 | in a way that conveys hierarchy of content and importance

00:13:49.180 | in lieu of design is really important.

00:13:51.020 | 'Cause again, that's the strategy piece of it

00:13:52.860 | where you say, hey, look, to your point earlier,

00:13:54.820 | here's the customer I'm going after.

00:13:56.500 | Here's what I believe they're interested in,

00:13:58.340 | whether it's top tasks or whatnot,

00:14:00.540 | organizing content in a way that you believe

00:14:02.340 | delivers on those top tasks.

00:14:04.180 | And then that can be as high or low fidelity as possible.

00:14:06.820 | I usually keep them as low fidelity as possible

00:14:08.740 | so people don't confuse it as design.

00:14:10.580 | And even then some people have confused it as design.

00:14:13.820 | I'm like, dude, if you think our website's

00:14:15.820 | gonna look like this, like we're in trouble.

00:14:18.420 | Yeah, so like with the clients that you've worked with

00:14:21.060 | on the agency side, like what's the best way

00:14:23.500 | of communicating like business

00:14:25.260 | and like site user like requirements

00:14:28.140 | that kind of ends up lending itself into UX and design?

00:14:31.580 | And do you often agree with your clients

00:14:34.300 | or do you kind of lead them in a different direction?

00:14:36.860 | - Yeah, so geez, I would say majority of the time

00:14:41.860 | the clients are really focused on the business.

00:14:45.540 | They have their own like goals and like KPIs

00:14:49.860 | and nine times out of 10,

00:14:51.740 | it's different than what the user wants.

00:14:53.980 | So it's always kind of like a battle in terms of,

00:14:58.620 | like we were just working on a navigation project

00:15:02.740 | and the client was like, this is how I see us

00:15:06.340 | laying out the products.

00:15:08.100 | It made sense from a business point of view,

00:15:11.340 | but to a customer, they're not gonna know the lingo.

00:15:15.140 | They don't know the like code words or abbreviations.

00:15:19.140 | Like it just doesn't make sense.

00:15:21.220 | So there's like a few ways we kind of go about it,

00:15:25.620 | but one is really testing like, cool, you want your idea.

00:15:31.220 | Like you said, we keep it low fidelity wireframes.

00:15:34.060 | We'll mock it up.

00:15:35.420 | Sure, this is what you requested, cool.

00:15:38.340 | But this is what we recommend

00:15:40.060 | coming from a user point of view.

00:15:42.300 | Like how I sort of define user experiences,

00:15:46.620 | like you are always the advocate for the user.

00:15:49.860 | There's gonna be a lot of different opinions

00:15:53.580 | coming your way, block it out.

00:15:56.380 | It's all about the user.

00:15:57.980 | And when you put it to a test,

00:16:00.460 | that's when you can kind of see like,

00:16:02.580 | does option A work, does option B work

00:16:05.020 | and let the data really speak for itself.

00:16:07.580 | 'Cause once you have the data, it's straight facts

00:16:11.140 | and no one has an opinion.

00:16:13.180 | Once they see facts, they're like, cool,

00:16:14.820 | we'll go with option B or, you know,

00:16:17.500 | whatever the sort of determination or result is.

00:16:21.140 | - So you said two things there I love

00:16:22.660 | and I wanna kind of double down on them.

00:16:24.140 | First one is around being an advocate of the customer.

00:16:27.420 | I can't tell you how many times,

00:16:29.060 | even see on the client side where like

00:16:31.420 | the product marketing team or whomever brand,

00:16:33.860 | like they have a really strong opinion

00:16:35.460 | on what they believe the customer wants.

00:16:37.620 | And like, they believe they're being customer centric

00:16:39.740 | and that's probably informed by customer research

00:16:41.980 | or feedback from sales.

00:16:42.900 | So there's a part of that is true,

00:16:45.500 | but it's always then stuffed with what you want

00:16:48.340 | put in there, right?

00:16:49.180 | And it's kind of helping them navigate,

00:16:51.460 | kind of deciphering what truly is important to the customer,

00:16:55.140 | like the top three things as opposed to the 50.

00:16:57.420 | And like global navigation, go to any website,

00:17:00.100 | you'll see like, if you wanna learn

00:17:01.980 | what a company is all about, look at global nav.

00:17:03.820 | You know, I think I've worked with brands previously

00:17:06.220 | where it's like solutions and products,

00:17:07.540 | they almost read the same, right?

00:17:09.620 | And so I literally did an open card sort

00:17:11.740 | and like people were confused.

00:17:12.740 | Like, what am I looking at?

00:17:13.580 | So like, that's just like to your point,

00:17:14.980 | data definitely speaks volumes.

00:17:16.500 | Now, I do wanna ask you a question about measurement

00:17:18.620 | because again, clients will always say, I want Apple.

00:17:22.460 | It's like, well, not everyone should design a website

00:17:24.300 | that looks like Apple,

00:17:25.140 | nor is it appropriate for your customer base.

00:17:27.340 | But like, you don't know how a certain design element

00:17:30.420 | on Apple actually performs.

00:17:31.820 | So you can't necessarily emulate that without data, right?

00:17:34.660 | And so, as you're going through and creating design,

00:17:37.860 | how do you build in the practice of testing and research

00:17:42.460 | and kind of optimizing?

00:17:44.100 | Is that part of your normal, your engagement with your client

00:17:46.900 | and are they, do they usually push back

00:17:48.620 | 'cause they just wanna design something

00:17:50.460 | and they're done with it?

00:17:51.300 | Like, how do you approach that?

00:17:52.660 | - Yeah, it always depends on the client.

00:17:55.780 | I would say a lot of times,

00:17:57.940 | clients want things done quickly.

00:18:02.100 | They wanna see something fast.

00:18:03.420 | They have a vision.

00:18:04.300 | They're like, cool, you're the expert, give me feedback.

00:18:07.100 | But at the same time, even what we do recommend

00:18:10.780 | is coming from a place of maybe only experience

00:18:14.580 | and not what the actual customer wants.

00:18:18.980 | So there's two ways you can go about it.

00:18:21.740 | The proper way is when you're in the UX phase,

00:18:24.860 | you're testing, you're iterating,

00:18:27.140 | you're getting that feedback early on.

00:18:28.980 | So when you go into design, when you go to build it,

00:18:33.980 | it's, you have all your factual data,

00:18:36.620 | you have all your requirements,

00:18:38.260 | you're just building it based on a spec.

00:18:41.260 | That never really happens.

00:18:42.940 | So what we typically do is we build through experience

00:18:47.940 | and sort of goals and then at the end, we test.

00:18:54.020 | We'll do like A/B testing, we'll do user testing

00:18:58.060 | and then sort of refine and modify.

00:19:00.820 | We got the big website out, we got the navigation out,

00:19:03.620 | we got the big push out.

00:19:05.300 | And once everyone's on the same page that it's not a,

00:19:09.300 | we hit this button, it's launched, peace out.

00:19:14.020 | It's an ever evolving thing.

00:19:15.860 | It makes more sense.

00:19:17.180 | And then now we're getting real time feedback.

00:19:19.620 | Now we can just continue to iterate.

00:19:22.100 | That's usually how most projects sort of go.

00:19:26.180 | - So I got a question I got to ask you.

00:19:28.380 | So there's always a humorous to me transition

00:19:33.380 | between what a creative delivers

00:19:36.460 | versus what's in it being built by a web development.

00:19:39.220 | - Yeah.

00:19:40.060 | - So how do you, or any, is there a tool

00:19:43.420 | or a methodology you use or process to ensure

00:19:46.500 | that the highest likelihood of what you design

00:19:49.340 | is what is it being built?

00:19:50.500 | Is there any tips for designers to help you transition?

00:19:53.780 | - Yeah, the biggest tip I can say

00:19:55.740 | is always involve development early in the process.

00:19:59.100 | Like your development team, it like,

00:20:02.900 | well, I'll just say kudos to our development team

00:20:05.580 | because they have a design background.

00:20:07.100 | So it makes life easier.

00:20:08.820 | If you don't have that, development needs to happen.

00:20:14.140 | Like they need to have a seat at the table at the UX phase.

00:20:18.100 | They need to understand what's going on.

00:20:20.100 | And also like how I sort of think of creative too

00:20:25.100 | is it's not just the creative team.

00:20:27.460 | Developers are creative, strategy is creative,

00:20:30.620 | data is creative.

00:20:31.980 | So involve them at the beginning

00:20:34.820 | because they're going to have ideas

00:20:36.380 | on how a cool experience is

00:20:39.740 | from the development point of view.

00:20:42.780 | So including them early in the process,

00:20:45.620 | having them in design review

00:20:47.100 | so that they can say, hey, Red Flag,

00:20:49.580 | I don't know if I can build that

00:20:50.940 | or now's a good time for me to start researching

00:20:54.020 | how to build it exactly how you want.

00:20:56.980 | So that would be like tip number one.

00:20:59.140 | Number two is Figma is a great tool

00:21:03.420 | for design and development collaboration.

00:21:06.980 | It gives them code.

00:21:08.780 | It allows us to prototype things.

00:21:11.340 | A lot of sites right now like are not static.

00:21:15.780 | They have motion and movement.

00:21:18.300 | And as designers, we used to like say,

00:21:22.700 | hey, can you make this like squiggle or whatever?

00:21:25.340 | And the developer is like, I don't know what that means.

00:21:28.780 | Now we can like really animate things quickly

00:21:32.340 | and be like, hey, is this something that you can do?

00:21:34.740 | And you're sort of collaborating

00:21:36.420 | in real time with the developer.

00:21:39.060 | So that's how you kind of break that barrier

00:21:41.700 | from seeing a nice, beautiful comp

00:21:45.140 | to what we sort of call developer ready,

00:21:47.620 | which is like, hey, what is this?

00:21:49.460 | It doesn't look anything like it.

00:21:50.900 | - Yeah.

00:21:51.740 | - Helps like smooth all that over.

00:21:53.740 | - Yeah, that's a really, really good point.

00:21:55.460 | I think bringing development early on,

00:21:58.220 | I can think of a lot of the examples

00:21:59.580 | where that's actually really, really important.

00:22:01.140 | So for example, like these days people want elegant design

00:22:04.140 | and sometimes elegant design is more flowy in nature

00:22:06.340 | and maybe there you build depth by having layers,

00:22:09.740 | maybe the copy and elements sit differently.

00:22:12.340 | But if you're a design developer

00:22:14.500 | and you think of the world

00:22:15.340 | in terms of horizontal blades,

00:22:16.940 | in terms of responsive design,

00:22:19.780 | that little edge you wanted to fly out

00:22:22.340 | now breaks into another blade.

00:22:23.820 | And now that actually physically can't be built that way.

00:22:26.020 | And so you're right.

00:22:26.860 | Like there's a lot of these creative elements

00:22:28.300 | where you just need to fair with development.

00:22:29.540 | Like what can we build?

00:22:31.260 | And also be responsive.

00:22:32.260 | I always gotta keep mobile in mind, right?

00:22:34.740 | You gotta bring them to the table and figure that out.

00:22:36.820 | - Yeah, and that collaboration is key.

00:22:38.500 | I think one project we worked on together,

00:22:41.620 | 'cause you were talking about blades,

00:22:43.100 | we designed where it,

00:22:45.380 | I think the design had like an angle

00:22:49.140 | and it was like, how do you make a nice seamless angle

00:22:52.620 | when you have sections on a page?

00:22:54.820 | So if I just delivered the design to the developer,

00:22:57.500 | they would have been like, there's no way I can do this.

00:23:00.580 | But when you have two heads sort of thinking,

00:23:03.020 | it's like, cool, in design, I can kind of fake it.

00:23:06.460 | And this one sort of section,

00:23:09.860 | like let's have the strip kind of align down here.

00:23:13.140 | And then the other one, bring it up a little higher.

00:23:15.340 | So it faked it in the way

00:23:17.780 | that the design still looked good.

00:23:19.860 | And we were able to have like the different sections.

00:23:22.460 | So that like design dev collaboration

00:23:26.420 | definitely needs to happen early on in the process.

00:23:30.020 | - Cool.

00:23:30.860 | I wanna transition a little bit,

00:23:32.020 | just kind of hear a little bit about your journey.

00:23:33.540 | Like, did you have a traditional like linear path

00:23:36.740 | to where you got here?

00:23:38.060 | Is it kind of like choose your own adventure?

00:23:40.180 | Kind of like mine was certainly like this,

00:23:42.580 | to where you got to where you are.

00:23:43.740 | Are there any kind of like roadblocks you had to overcome

00:23:46.580 | and any kind of lessons you can share with the public here?

00:23:49.100 | - Yeah, so I think mine was like all over the place.

00:23:53.420 | So I started out, I actually started out in engineering,

00:23:57.380 | partially, like not even development,

00:24:00.660 | like building bridges, like engineering

00:24:04.260 | and totally not for me.

00:24:07.100 | And then I moved into architecture,

00:24:08.860 | which is why I probably use a lot of architecture references.

00:24:12.140 | That's sort of, and that relates to like a lot of UX

00:24:17.020 | and wireframes, but that's kind of how I started.

00:24:19.700 | I worked at a lot of architecture firms.

00:24:23.100 | So that's sort of my background.

00:24:25.900 | And then I would say from there,

00:24:28.580 | I just, I knew I wanted to do something creative.

00:24:33.220 | I knew I wanted to be in design.

00:24:36.020 | Back then there wasn't anything called like user experience.

00:24:40.980 | It was just like web design and stuff like that.

00:24:44.820 | But I think where I kind of moved around a lot

00:24:49.700 | was within different industries of design.

00:24:52.500 | So I worked in fashion, product, tech, finance,

00:24:57.500 | like literally anything you can think of

00:25:01.940 | and just seeing how design worked there.

00:25:04.740 | I'd say that probably the bigger lessons for me was like,

00:25:08.940 | I would say, I was always the type of sort of kid

00:25:17.060 | who was like, just put my head down and really work.

00:25:23.460 | Like I would try to outwork everyone.

00:25:26.580 | First one in, last one out, just really at work.

00:25:29.420 | And I was like, cool, I'm introverted, I'm shy.

00:25:33.180 | I don't wanna talk, I'm just gonna keep my head down

00:25:36.020 | and work.

00:25:37.100 | And I realized over time, that only gets you so far.

00:25:42.100 | Stops being about, at times it stops being about

00:25:46.660 | what you know, but who you know to help guide you,

00:25:51.100 | to help open doors, to help even just elevate

00:25:56.100 | your own craft.

00:25:58.380 | I'd say that's probably one of the biggest lessons

00:26:01.740 | I've learned.

00:26:03.460 | And then also, I think too, just kind of like sharing

00:26:08.460 | in design world sometimes, like you get a design

00:26:15.260 | and you go do your own thing and you share it at the end.

00:26:19.180 | And you're like, cool, this is what I did.

00:26:21.460 | Sharing along the way and like involving people

00:26:24.540 | in your process, it really elevates and pushes your design

00:26:29.540 | and pushes you to think differently.

00:26:31.860 | If you see someone else with the same thing,

00:26:33.700 | you're like, cool, what am I gonna do next?

00:26:35.380 | But you have to share, you have to be open,

00:26:38.300 | you have to be collaborative to do that.

00:26:41.860 | So I would say those are probably like the two biggest

00:26:45.740 | things I've learned along the way.

00:26:47.260 | - Yeah, and I think even reading between the lines there,

00:26:50.860 | you have to be good with receiving constructive criticism

00:26:53.900 | too, right?

00:26:55.300 | 'Cause like, again, like whether it's you kind of breaking

00:26:58.020 | through a mental block or kind of having someone work

00:27:01.300 | with you through that, or the design just doesn't meet

00:27:03.740 | someone else's standards.

00:27:04.700 | Like you have to be able to take that feedback in

00:27:07.060 | to adjust, right?

00:27:08.460 | - Yeah, so, okay, I think receiving feedback when I first,

00:27:12.940 | so designers typically are very sensitive

00:27:17.180 | because they put their passion and their all into feedback

00:27:20.620 | or into their work.

00:27:22.260 | I'm not really like that.

00:27:23.740 | And I think school I went to.

00:27:27.780 | So I went to School of Visual Arts in New York.

00:27:31.860 | This school is like, in order to teach there,

00:27:36.060 | you have to be a working professional.

00:27:37.780 | So you're getting critiqued by like people

00:27:40.780 | who potentially can be your boss.

00:27:43.140 | Also a lot of great artists came out of this school.

00:27:47.620 | Like, you know, a lot of famous people,

00:27:49.980 | but the way that they critiqued was like,

00:27:52.740 | they were not shy, they were really blunt.

00:27:56.100 | Some people like cry during critiques

00:27:58.860 | and what it really established was for you to be able

00:28:03.860 | to give your all in your work,

00:28:07.140 | but then take a step back when you're being reviewed

00:28:09.540 | and actually see different perspectives

00:28:12.100 | and listen and understand without feeling

00:28:15.740 | an emotional attachment to it.

00:28:17.580 | Through my experience, that's very hard for designers

00:28:22.980 | because they're so passionate.

00:28:24.540 | But if you're able to sort of separate yourself

00:28:27.700 | and be like, okay, this is the work,

00:28:30.260 | it's not a reflection of me, you'll be very successful.

00:28:35.260 | I'm still practicing that.

00:28:37.980 | I'm sure every designer is still practicing that.

00:28:40.740 | But what that also allows you to do too

00:28:42.820 | is become more collaborative.

00:28:44.660 | It allows you to see things from a different light

00:28:47.420 | and a different perspective.

00:28:49.140 | And a lot of times that's what creativity is too.

00:28:53.140 | - Yeah, I remember when I was at LinkedIn,

00:28:54.660 | there was one saying that was always so cheesy,

00:28:58.060 | but it's so true.

00:28:59.260 | It's like, they literally say like feedback is a gift.

00:29:02.420 | - It is.

00:29:04.340 | - But it's also like a double-edged sword too, right?

00:29:06.100 | But I think once you get in the habit

00:29:08.100 | of soliciting that feedback,

00:29:10.260 | that puts you a little more in the control

00:29:11.940 | of the feedback loop,

00:29:13.900 | as opposed to someone bombarding you from the side

00:29:17.420 | and critiquing your screen.

00:29:18.780 | I think you're right.

00:29:20.100 | There's an element of productivity

00:29:21.580 | where you can control that

00:29:22.900 | and then you can prep yourself for that.

00:29:25.020 | But you're right.

00:29:26.260 | People who are passionate about the work,

00:29:27.740 | musicians alike, right?

00:29:28.860 | It's also very, very subjective, by the way, right?

00:29:32.980 | And so somebody that's kind of,

00:29:35.580 | the way I do things is there's critique

00:29:38.620 | and then there's their opinion and then there's truth.

00:29:41.780 | So how do I cut through all that critique

00:29:44.380 | to find the nugget of truth?

00:29:45.420 | And I'll hold onto that, right?

00:29:46.580 | And then let the other stuff,

00:29:47.900 | don't bother me emotionally.

00:29:49.500 | Sometimes I need to go out for a walk to decompress.

00:29:51.780 | There's methods, but yeah, you're totally right.

00:29:54.460 | I'm kind of curious for people who are looking

00:29:57.540 | to maybe explore transitioning

00:29:59.220 | into the creative field, right?

00:30:03.300 | Do you have examples of people

00:30:04.540 | who maybe come from non-traditional backgrounds

00:30:07.460 | and whether it's the mindset carries over or whatever?

00:30:11.380 | Can you give some examples of that?

00:30:13.180 | - Yeah, there's a few people who I've sort of mentored

00:30:18.260 | just when they were transitioning

00:30:20.780 | from a completely different industry into design

00:30:24.580 | and also their fears about, does this make sense?

00:30:28.580 | So I think one girl I'm thinking of,

00:30:33.580 | she was a teacher, high school teacher,

00:30:38.180 | and she was just really interested in how to build websites,

00:30:42.940 | how to make websites in the creative point of view,

00:30:45.540 | totally, completely different

00:30:48.060 | than teaching high school students.

00:30:50.940 | So she thought, but a lot of those skills are transferable

00:30:55.940 | when you're presenting,

00:30:57.660 | when you're thinking about how to explain complex,

00:31:02.420 | I don't know, mathematic equations

00:31:05.220 | to high schoolers or to children.

00:31:07.660 | It's a lot about understanding the audience and the user.

00:31:12.100 | That's what user experience is,

00:31:14.300 | knowing how to talk to people, knowing how to present.

00:31:17.340 | All of the sort of foundational stuff, of course,

00:31:20.740 | you gotta learn it, bootcamp, school, sure, that's teachable

00:31:25.740 | but the way that you understand, talk to users,

00:31:31.180 | she was doing that already.

00:31:34.460 | So it made, it was a tool that she could just use

00:31:38.100 | and leverage to kind of set her apart.

00:31:41.140 | Teaching was one.

00:31:42.500 | I also had someone who was into psychology.

00:31:46.460 | I was like, come on,

00:31:47.740 | you don't think psychology can transfer?

00:31:50.340 | You're always trying to be in the mind

00:31:52.420 | and the psyche of a user.

00:31:53.740 | I was like, shoot, just go ahead and do it.

00:31:56.140 | I mean, a lot of skills kind of transfer.

00:31:59.500 | There was a football player who, hard work ethic,

00:32:04.500 | like a lot of things can transfer

00:32:07.860 | and really the teachable stuff, you can just learn online.

00:32:11.660 | - Yeah, even to turn that on its head,

00:32:13.900 | I agree with everything you say.

00:32:15.460 | Like if we define a good designer

00:32:18.220 | as someone who has a good sense of who their audience is,

00:32:21.740 | has an idea of what they're looking for

00:32:24.180 | and it creates a vehicle of which it pleases them to engage,

00:32:29.180 | that skill set can translate outside of design as well.

00:32:32.820 | You know, like if you're going to go into product marketing

00:32:35.700 | where you're trying, or even customer marketing,

00:32:37.580 | where you're trying to figure out like,

00:32:38.980 | what is it that my customers truly care about

00:32:40.540 | and how do I deliver something that matters to them?

00:32:42.100 | Like these all actually matter.

00:32:43.980 | As a matter of fact, you might even find niches

00:32:45.860 | within each of these marketing roles

00:32:47.700 | where having a sense of a creative eye

00:32:50.660 | as well as having that mindset

00:32:52.220 | might be the aspect that they're missing.

00:32:54.540 | And so I think for people

00:32:55.580 | who are looking at transitioning careers,

00:32:57.780 | like if you feel like you've been in a career

00:33:00.740 | and creative your whole life and move out,

00:33:03.100 | I don't want you to feel discouraged from doing that.

00:33:05.300 | 'Cause as a matter of fact,

00:33:06.140 | you are a lot closer than you might realize,

00:33:08.860 | but to your point, Janelle,

00:33:09.700 | you got to put in some of the work,

00:33:10.660 | whether you're within creative or externally,

00:33:13.140 | but again, that's teachable, right?

00:33:15.140 | So I like how you framed that.

00:33:17.180 | - Yeah, even in part of my career,

00:33:19.500 | I got really burnt out in design.

00:33:22.220 | I didn't, it was like a lot going on.

00:33:25.500 | I just didn't even feel like I wanted to be a designer

00:33:29.380 | and I switched to product management.

00:33:32.020 | Like I was an engagement manager.

00:33:33.580 | I don't know why I did that,

00:33:35.300 | but like I had a lot of fun,

00:33:37.380 | but even a lot of those skills were transferable

00:33:40.060 | because when you're in a management position,

00:33:43.060 | especially at an agency,

00:33:45.020 | it's really valuable to be able to talk about

00:33:47.660 | all of the different, like not industries,

00:33:52.660 | but all of the different aspects of the business.

00:33:55.060 | So I was a project manager

00:33:57.420 | and I could talk about development

00:33:58.940 | without the dev team being there.

00:34:01.220 | Not in detail, but you know,

00:34:02.940 | like I could talk about design.

00:34:05.500 | I could talk about how everything sort of connects.

00:34:07.980 | So it really does,

00:34:09.820 | like all these skills are really transferable.

00:34:11.940 | Even now, like my role right now is leadership.

00:34:15.780 | I can now look at the business in a different way

00:34:19.460 | and be like, cool,

00:34:20.820 | there's a bunch of problems in the organization

00:34:24.260 | that we can be more efficient at.

00:34:26.940 | Here are my user groups.

00:34:28.660 | How do we get from point A to point C in a seamless way?

00:34:32.460 | Like you can take a lot of these tools

00:34:35.620 | and apply it literally anywhere.

00:34:38.020 | - Yeah, I totally agree.

00:34:39.300 | Like skills absolutely build over time.

00:34:41.700 | I remember early in my career,

00:34:43.620 | I didn't have the experience to lean on.

00:34:45.340 | And so I got, and actually to age myself,

00:34:48.220 | I graduated college during like a 2000.com bubble burst.

00:34:51.180 | So like marketing was literally the last role

00:34:53.820 | people were hiring from.

00:34:54.900 | And I took random jobs at like coffee shops

00:34:57.380 | or like I've also did like content entry.

00:35:00.460 | I was even in a call center,

00:35:02.100 | like calling people at like eight in the morning

00:35:04.940 | on a Saturday saying that they overdrafted

00:35:07.300 | their bank account by like $2.

00:35:08.500 | Now they owe 20, like you get a lot of angry people.

00:35:11.180 | But I think that the key point is

00:35:13.980 | if every single experience or project you work on,

00:35:18.620 | you have to have a sense of true North

00:35:20.500 | in terms of what you want to gain out of that experience.

00:35:23.180 | And as long as you're learning something

00:35:25.220 | that no job experience is ever beneath you

00:35:27.780 | or non applicable to you.

00:35:29.980 | So I'm thinking like even as an early career,

00:35:32.180 | let's say you're a production artist

00:35:34.020 | and you're like, oh man, I'm just doing,

00:35:35.380 | I'm just stamping out templates

00:35:37.100 | and they feel very transactional.

00:35:38.460 | Well, you could think about,

00:35:39.820 | hey, how can I do this more efficiently?

00:35:42.140 | Or is there a way to optimize a template?

00:35:44.500 | You just by doing that and change that mindset,

00:35:47.420 | you are by the way, not only separating yourself

00:35:49.700 | from the rest of your peer group,

00:35:52.180 | but you're gaining skills to do that, right?

00:35:53.980 | And I think people will notice that.

00:35:55.740 | And I think that kind of thing

00:35:57.020 | carries through your whole career.

00:35:58.620 | - A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

00:36:01.020 | - So Janelle, I got a question for you.

00:36:02.260 | So one piece of advice for a early career creative

00:36:06.380 | and one piece of advice for someone who's senior,

00:36:08.660 | who's looking at growing a career.

00:36:10.260 | It's like, what advice would you give to them?

00:36:12.980 | - Okay, early career.

00:36:15.220 | The advice I would probably give is,

00:36:19.500 | learn and absorb as much as you can from all aspects,

00:36:25.700 | inside your field, outside your field,

00:36:28.260 | just find where your interests are,

00:36:31.420 | learn and absorb as much as you can

00:36:34.420 | and take notes and keep them somewhere.

00:36:36.700 | For a senior person, I would say,

00:36:41.840 | I think for me, I would say balance, learning balance,

00:36:50.980 | probably 'cause I struggled with that a lot,

00:36:57.300 | but learning to balance and prioritizing the things

00:37:00.860 | that are meaningful to you.

00:37:03.540 | - I love that.

00:37:06.380 | I agree with all that.

00:37:08.020 | I'm like nodding my head.

00:37:08.860 | I'm like, yeah, you're like talking to me.

00:37:10.260 | How do you read my mind?

00:37:12.220 | Transitioning actually out of the world

00:37:14.020 | for design a little bit.

00:37:14.860 | Like I think earlier I started off this conversation,

00:37:17.740 | like totally like throwing compliments away,

00:37:20.620 | but it's totally genuine where like,

00:37:22.540 | I really expect you as just a human being.

00:37:24.660 | And there's an aspect of like bringing your true,

00:37:27.500 | authentic self to work.

00:37:29.340 | But even before you can do that,

00:37:30.700 | you kind of have to discover that a little bit.

00:37:32.740 | And so I'm kind of wondering like,

00:37:34.380 | how did you discover your sense of self?

00:37:37.700 | Like what did that journey look like?

00:37:39.260 | And then at what point did you feel like that,

00:37:41.900 | who you were like outside of work was the same person

00:37:44.900 | at work?

00:37:45.740 | - I feel like I'm still on that journey.

00:37:48.920 | - Okay.

00:37:52.020 | - I think for me, like I kind of mentioned this too.

00:37:56.620 | I'm like super introverted and I'm super quiet.

00:38:00.420 | So I think for me, whenever I go somewhere,

00:38:04.780 | a new company, whatever it is, even outside,

00:38:07.860 | like I'm meeting new people,

00:38:09.740 | I'm sort of just this sort of quiet person that observes.

00:38:13.820 | And then once I start to feel comfortable,

00:38:16.260 | I'm like, cool, it's me.

00:38:17.820 | Like, woo, like you'll get the full version.

00:38:21.060 | But I think it takes time and a certain space

00:38:25.660 | and like your people in order to feel comfortable enough

00:38:30.060 | to, you know, like not have to be your authentic self.

00:38:35.060 | I think to work wise, like I dealt with like a lot

00:38:41.600 | of imposter syndrome.

00:38:44.060 | So I couldn't even be able to feel like my authentic self.

00:38:48.600 | So I did a lot of things.

00:38:49.740 | Like I went back to school, I joined groups,

00:38:52.740 | I joined like clubs or whatever to talk these things out

00:38:56.500 | with people who felt the same way.

00:38:58.500 | And I was like, cool, I just can be open about this stuff.

00:39:02.140 | 'Cause everyone's feeling like this.

00:39:04.100 | It's not just me, I'm not in this alone.

00:39:06.980 | And as soon as I started to do that,

00:39:09.380 | everyone was like, yeah, I feel the same way.

00:39:11.220 | And it became such a safer environment that,

00:39:16.260 | yeah, like, cool, if you call me like, you know,

00:39:19.480 | on the weekend, I'm the same person

00:39:20.960 | as you see me on Monday,

00:39:22.240 | except maybe I'm just more sleepy.

00:39:24.020 | It takes time, it definitely takes time.

00:39:28.000 | It definitely takes practice.

00:39:30.040 | I'm still learning how to just even be more open

00:39:33.920 | and authentic and like, it's also just knowing yourself too.

00:39:38.040 | And that's a different journey for everyone.

00:39:41.240 | - Yeah, the imposter syndrome is a big one.

00:39:44.940 | And I absolutely went through it.

00:39:46.560 | I don't know if I share this story with you, Janelle.

00:39:47.840 | Like when I was interviewing at LinkedIn,

00:39:51.960 | so I was being brought on

00:39:53.640 | to be their senior web marketing manager.

00:39:55.760 | That was a title where like LinkedIn

00:39:57.880 | had just acquired lynda.com

00:39:59.560 | and they're trying to launch LinkedIn Learning.

00:40:01.760 | And so there's all this stuff, right?

00:40:04.960 | I remember during my interview,

00:40:06.520 | like all the way up to the VP who was interviewing me,

00:40:10.160 | like they asked questions that were like way in the weeds.

00:40:14.160 | And I was like, oh my God, like, they know how,

00:40:16.800 | like they could probably do my job

00:40:19.720 | and it's not their title.

00:40:21.160 | And when I started working, it was the same way.

00:40:23.360 | It's like, oh man, everyone is super smart.

00:40:25.480 | And like, I bet you any of these people

00:40:27.560 | who like I'm talking to you

00:40:28.640 | can probably just come and do my job.

00:40:30.960 | And for that first year, I was like really miserable.

00:40:34.280 | I self-inflicted wounds to myself a lot.

00:40:36.840 | There were some areas

00:40:38.080 | that were legitimately areas of improvement though.

00:40:40.200 | Like earlier I mentioned,

00:40:41.560 | find the truth nuggets within criticism.

00:40:44.280 | Like my area was like analytics.

00:40:46.600 | I love analytics now,

00:40:47.480 | but back then it was like,

00:40:48.960 | I was never the one pulling the data,

00:40:50.840 | I was the one using the data.

00:40:51.880 | So now I got to pull my own data.

00:40:53.000 | It's like, oh my God, if I pull the wrong data,

00:40:54.440 | then I'm screwed, right?

00:40:56.160 | And I would present

00:40:57.000 | and people would like catch mistakes on the fly.

00:40:59.800 | Like that didn't make sense.

00:41:01.440 | Or this conclusion like didn't align with what's like,

00:41:04.040 | like slide three slides ago on a site,

00:41:06.560 | small tiny print, like I don't know how to remember that.

00:41:09.120 | And I really struggled that.

00:41:10.640 | And to your point,

00:41:11.920 | there was a part of it where I had to just embrace

00:41:14.680 | being okay with being vulnerable.

00:41:16.320 | I had to just acknowledge that,

00:41:18.680 | hey, like first off to your point,

00:41:20.200 | I need to get some help.

00:41:21.040 | I kind of got some peers to validate whatever.

00:41:23.760 | Someone actually reminded me when this was really helpful.

00:41:26.000 | They're like, people hired you

00:41:28.560 | because of what's between your ears

00:41:30.280 | and your hands as a creative, right?

00:41:31.680 | And it's unique to you

00:41:34.080 | and they hired you because you're good.

00:41:36.720 | And they're so they're not the one

00:41:37.560 | who's telling you that you can't do it.

00:41:38.680 | It's you, right?

00:41:39.520 | And so like, you kind of have to have

00:41:41.720 | that level of self-awareness,

00:41:43.640 | kind of get over that.

00:41:44.480 | But I think in the Bay Area,

00:41:46.360 | like it's imposter syndrome,

00:41:48.000 | especially here is like a huge deal.

00:41:50.640 | - Yeah, I think I kind of mentioned this before.

00:41:53.240 | Like I got burnt out

00:41:55.320 | and I switched to becoming an engagement manager.

00:41:59.120 | I was also dealing with a lot of imposter syndrome.

00:42:02.040 | I was like, I can't do this.

00:42:04.760 | We were getting,

00:42:06.000 | I was working at a small startup

00:42:08.200 | and in the beginning we were getting like these,

00:42:10.960 | you know, smaller clients.

00:42:12.200 | It was cool, it was awesome.

00:42:13.360 | But once we started getting like

00:42:15.400 | these fortune 500 company clients,

00:42:18.800 | the conversations I was like,

00:42:20.400 | I don't know, this is like foreign language.

00:42:22.880 | I do not know what anybody is talking about here.

00:42:26.240 | I was anything, any question I asked,

00:42:28.400 | I felt like I was just completely stupid.

00:42:30.720 | And I was like, I don't,

00:42:32.320 | creative is just not for me.

00:42:33.640 | Like maybe let me just,

00:42:35.680 | especially it being so subjective.

00:42:37.960 | I was like, I can't do this.

00:42:39.280 | I'm gonna become a engagement manager where like,

00:42:44.040 | you know, I can just organize stuff and like learn.

00:42:47.960 | And a lot of it had to do with one being burnt out,

00:42:51.480 | but also too, yeah, it was imposter syndrome.

00:42:54.720 | I didn't, and it was only me giving myself this feedback.

00:42:58.040 | - Yeah.

00:42:58.880 | - We are really long.

00:42:59.800 | I'm still not even over imposter syndrome,

00:43:02.160 | but it took me a really long time to learn

00:43:05.360 | that it was myself and how to quiet that noise.

00:43:09.920 | 'Cause like anytime you start something new,

00:43:11.920 | like even if it's a new role or you get a promotion,

00:43:14.880 | like imposter syndrome is for real.

00:43:17.880 | Like, you're like, man, can I do this?

00:43:19.720 | But it's like, how do you just really quiet the noise?

00:43:22.880 | And like you said, they hired you for a reason.

00:43:25.600 | They picked you for a reason.

00:43:27.240 | You're here for a reason.

00:43:28.440 | You're gonna have perspectives and experiences

00:43:33.080 | that literally no one else has had.

00:43:35.480 | And that's why, that alone is why you're here.

00:43:39.480 | So just like really embrace that.

00:43:42.440 | - I would never believe for a second

00:43:46.080 | that you're going through aspects of imposter syndrome now,

00:43:49.600 | because you're so freaking amazing.

00:43:51.720 | I think that's what's important for you to realize.

00:43:54.480 | Like the people you're working with

00:43:56.520 | are all dealing with their stuff.

00:43:59.320 | And I think when it comes to being like compassionate

00:44:02.160 | and empathetic with people,

00:44:03.840 | that's where I think that's where the real relationships

00:44:07.120 | are made and where you make a difference, right?

00:44:08.480 | 'Cause like even speaking with you and kind of figuring like,

00:44:11.600 | hey, what are you working through?

00:44:12.960 | Like, what are you challenged with?

00:44:14.560 | How can I walk alongside you to get over that?

00:44:16.240 | Or maybe it's just me being proactive

00:44:19.040 | and giving you verbal confirmation and encouragement.

00:44:22.320 | That may be all you need to kind of get over a mini hump

00:44:25.560 | that you're experiencing that day.

00:44:26.600 | Like, is it kind of something

00:44:28.000 | you experience every day as well?

00:44:30.000 | - Oh my gosh, all the time.

00:44:31.960 | I think it's more so, it used to be about the work

00:44:36.720 | and like presenting it and feeling like I wasn't,

00:44:41.720 | I just wasn't good enough to do it.

00:44:45.680 | I think now it's changed into

00:44:47.960 | when I'm leading and coaching a team,

00:44:50.320 | it's like, are you guys sure you want my opinion on it?

00:44:55.320 | You know, or even like sometimes I might have to coach,

00:44:59.520 | like, you know, an executive person.

00:45:02.200 | I'm like, me, you want my opinion?

00:45:04.720 | Like, are you sure?

00:45:06.200 | But it's like, you know, I kind of just always go back.

00:45:09.160 | Like, we all have very super unique experiences

00:45:13.920 | and we just sort of have to,

00:45:16.720 | that's why we have a seat at the table

00:45:19.040 | or we're coming to make a seat at the table.

00:45:21.520 | Yeah, I totally experience it every day.

00:45:25.040 | But a lot of times I just have to be like,

00:45:28.120 | is this the truth?

00:45:29.560 | Is this how you're feeling?

00:45:31.920 | Is this an emotion?

00:45:33.840 | Yes, then just quiet that noise

00:45:36.680 | because it's, for me, I'm like, it's not gonna go away.

00:45:39.200 | It's always gonna be there.

00:45:41.320 | All my self-doubt is gonna be there.

00:45:43.120 | I'm human, but like, I just have to quiet it

00:45:46.240 | and just speak from my,

00:45:48.440 | we were talking about authentic self in my experiences.

00:45:52.000 | - Yeah.

00:45:52.880 | Well, Janelle, I just want to thank you for this time.

00:45:54.760 | I really enjoyed this conversation.

00:45:56.080 | I think there's a lot to be learned from what you said.

00:45:58.640 | There's a lot of wisdom in your experience.

00:45:59.920 | So just thank you for taking your time with us.

00:46:02.480 | - Thank you for having me, Tim.

00:46:04.280 | - All right, talk to you later.

00:46:05.600 | - All right.

00:46:06.440 | - Okay, bye.

00:46:07.440 | (gentle music)

00:46:10.040 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

How To Be A Creative: UX Design Vs Digital Design

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