(upbeat music) - You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs, where we give you practical insights into jobs and careers. I'm Tim Chen, and today we're talking about how to be a digital designer. For the majority of my career, my focus has been on delivering the best web experiences for our customers.

And I do this by owning the user experience and design of websites for major brands, like LinkedIn, Logitech, Cisco, Fortinet, and NetApp. Now, when it comes to opinions about what good web design is, you'll often hear someone say, "Oh, just go make your website look like Apple." Now, Apple does have fantastic and stunning-looking marketing material and industrial product designs.

However, you as an outsider have very limited view into what parts of the website actually performs well. So just borrowing their design doesn't mean it'll succeed for you. I'm a firm believer that every pixel has to have a purpose. It doesn't matter if it's a decision about color or typography.

It doesn't matter if it's an illustration or photography, or a philosophical debate on how simple or complex to make a webpage because you have too much to say. Everything you decide to put on a website should be done intentionally. A good web design engages a visitor, compels them to take action with the least amount of clicks possible, and can be backed by data.

I have a huge amount of respect and love for the field of digital design and user experience. It truly is as much science as it is art. So if you've ever considered a career in digital design, or you're curious how to transition to different opportunities within the field, then this episode is for you.

Today, we're going to have a conversation with Janelle Chandler. She's the VP of creative and user experience at Qualified Digital. In this video, she's going to give us practical insights about topics like the differences between UX and visual design, tips to ensure web development builds what you designed, and then we're going to talk about Janelle's own career journey and how she deals with criticism and imposter syndrome.

All right, let's get started. Hey guys, today we're going to talk about everything around how to be a creative and how to be a designer. Joining us today is Janelle Chandler. Janelle, how are you doing? - I'm good, Tim, how are you? - I'm doing really good. Janelle, I've always really deeply admired and respected how you do your craft.

Of course, quality of work and your creativity, your range is all there, but I think at the end of the day, what always resonates with me is you as a human. Like you're an empathetic individual, you're just cool to work with, and that really kind of resonates in your design, quite frankly.

So can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now and how long you've been doing it and maybe your journey to how you got here? - Yeah, so right now I work for a startup agency called Qualified Digital, and I'm VP of Creative End User Experience.

So that means like a lot of different things, but if I kind of boil it down, like you said, the main part is quality of work that comes out of the agency. So we do website designs, mobile app designs, any kind of digital experience, and like really creating a beautiful experience that's meaningful.

So that's like one part. And then the second part is I'm more, a little more focused right now on like creating teams, building teams, building culture within the creative teams, and sort of how that kind of levels up to the business and how that sort of magic all happens.

- And so let's actually talk about that a little bit before we get to your journey, 'cause I think building a team and what you look for is really important. And quite frankly, design as a category is really, really broad with many applications. And so can you maybe tell us about like the common types of design that you interact with or that you personally execute, and then what maybe you're looking for in designers?

They could be from early career to very senior. - Yeah, so the type of design for this agency specifically, it kind of boils down into user experience and then visual design. And then there's like subcategories within those. So typically they don't mix, but sometimes you also might have a hybrid person.

But for user experience, these are the type of people who, I kind of relate it to our architecture. They like to draw the blueprints. They're into the requirements, the spec work, the functionality, like how are we going to make a plan to build this? So kind of like job titles in those would be like a UX researcher, a UX designer, sometimes product designer.

And then on the visual side, which is more my sweet spot, you'll have your visual designers, your branding designers. So we're more responsible for the look and feel, the typography, the color, also the experience too. Like when you're scrolling through a site, do things change, do colors change? How is the type read?

So those are kind of the two different groupings. Personally where I sit is sort of in the middle. I like to figure out the plan and I also like to make it feel good, come alive, like you're really experiencing it from start to finish. And then I think your second question was around the level of talent.

So at QD, because we're so small, we tend to right now hire like senior level designers and above just because the work is so in depth and fast paced, it's very hard to train. But we'll hire from like a senior or a lead director level to VP level. And basically that means you know how to work on a project from start to finish, your client facing, all the ins and outs.

So you're really focused on the challenge at hand versus the process. You're focused on what's the best experience I'm making for this customer versus you know, like how do I get from A to B? You're focused on more of the challenge. - So that's an interesting space to be hiring for 'cause a resume can look really, really good, right?

But you don't really know what you're gonna get until you see it in practice, especially at the senior levels. Like how long have they been away from doing actual hands-on work, right? So how do you go through and kind of process that, evaluate a talent and the whole gamut?

- Okay, it's super hard, super hard right now too because like, so we're hiring too. So the pool of talent out there ranges from people who are in the weeds of work to you know, senior talent who hasn't actually designed anything for years. And also now that we're into like AI, like we've even seen portfolios that are literally done by AI.

And it's like, "Hey, you're cheating now." (laughing) What we look for is well, with every creative person, you have to have a portfolio and you're not judged solely on your portfolio. You're going to have to explain your role, your contribution and that will determine like what level you're at at the agency for us.

So if you're talking more high level, you orchestrated the team, you may be too senior for us. If you orchestrated the team and you're also in the weeds, you're in Figma, you're in, no one uses sketch anymore, but like you know the lingo, you know how to do things.

You're kind of on the right track for us. Our agency is like, no matter what your level is, you're still gonna be the individual contributor. And a lot of people here really like that because you don't lose your craft. It's a lot of responsibility, but you're still in the weeds with everyone else.

You're taking out the trash too. - Yeah, I think that's a really, really good perspective. I think, I agree with you actually, not even just in design. Right now, as I'm looking at roles I'm consulting, it's very similar things. Like you gotta walk the walk and talk the talk, right?

And then oftentimes, like even working with you, like you lead the strategy, you kind of do the framework, but like even for you to be able to effectively handle it off to someone, like you're always creating a really high quality template for someone to follow. So there really is that practical application of the job to make the process more efficient.

- Yeah, and we're seeing that too, like I'm seeing that specifically with new clients that we're having, even old clients that we're having, even just the way the industry, like design and tech is shaping. Like back in the day, you used to have creative directors who would probably spend months with you just talking vision and that's all they did.

And they had their team like execute. Now that doesn't fly. Like you have to be talking vision and then let's see your output and your output has to also be quality with a great team that also contributes to that. So it's definitely changing a lot. - Yeah, and earlier you were talking about obviously leading us into all the different types of creative you use, like user experience, UX, usability and design.

Now, how easy is it, not easy is the wrong word, but how feasible is it for someone to change disciplines? So let's say you're not at the web production level. Let's say you are, let's say a web designer or maybe you're an application design for software, let's say. How easy is it to take that skill and translate over into web design or usability or UX?

'Cause the disciplines are a little different, right? So they're a little nuanced. - They're different mindset, but the foundation at its core is the same. Like, regardless of what type of designer you are, you're creating something for a user. Whether you're a like user experience person, you're an advocate for the user, that's your focus.

Same thing with like visual design, motion design, whatever it is, like you're doing this for the actual user to enjoy the experience. So foundation is the same. A lot of people do sort of either overlap or in different times of their career will be like, like I know me personally, I started out visual design.

I probably did that for like six years and got sick of it. I was like, I'm just tired and switched completely over to UX. You just pick up more skills and tools. And then eventually I moved back to visual design and it was sort of a hybrid. You can switch around, you can change.

It's actually more beneficial for the company and yourself to be able to speak like holistically about things, but it is a different mindset. Because you're going from like straight blueprints to like, I'll speak in like architecture terms, but like you're going from like blueprints to designing the interior of the house.

Different mechanics, but foundation is pretty much the same. - And so actually, if you don't mind, just maybe defining it for the user, like classical visual design versus UX, like what's the difference? - Yeah, so, okay, I like talking about this because I think we've talked a little bit.

I do a lot of mentorship for bootcampers and they don't know what to call themselves a lot of times. So I define it by the deliverables at hand. So user experience, you'll do things from personas, researching audience types, wireframes. You'll probably make like low fidelity prototypes. You'll do user testing, sort of just the research aspect of it.

Visual design is all of the things that you can see, like the pretty stuff, the fonts, the colors, sometimes the logos, the way you experience a page, the transitions, the motion. So it's all about the front end, the visual aspect of it. - Yeah, I want to double down on that 'cause I totally love what you said about distinguishing like UX as the blueprint foundation.

Like I'm not a designer by trade at all. Like if anyone pays me to design, like they're in serious trouble. But the principles of UX, like I definitely utilize from a web marketing strategy point of view. Like the tools I use, you're gonna laugh, it used to be MS Paint drawing 16 bit colors.

And then like now I'm like using PowerPoint or like Google Slides, right? But the idea of like putting your thoughts on a paper in a way that conveys hierarchy of content and importance in lieu of design is really important. 'Cause again, that's the strategy piece of it where you say, hey, look, to your point earlier, here's the customer I'm going after.

Here's what I believe they're interested in, whether it's top tasks or whatnot, organizing content in a way that you believe delivers on those top tasks. And then that can be as high or low fidelity as possible. I usually keep them as low fidelity as possible so people don't confuse it as design.

And even then some people have confused it as design. I'm like, dude, if you think our website's gonna look like this, like we're in trouble. Yeah, so like with the clients that you've worked with on the agency side, like what's the best way of communicating like business and like site user like requirements that kind of ends up lending itself into UX and design?

And do you often agree with your clients or do you kind of lead them in a different direction? - Yeah, so geez, I would say majority of the time the clients are really focused on the business. They have their own like goals and like KPIs and nine times out of 10, it's different than what the user wants.

So it's always kind of like a battle in terms of, like we were just working on a navigation project and the client was like, this is how I see us laying out the products. It made sense from a business point of view, but to a customer, they're not gonna know the lingo.

They don't know the like code words or abbreviations. Like it just doesn't make sense. So there's like a few ways we kind of go about it, but one is really testing like, cool, you want your idea. Like you said, we keep it low fidelity wireframes. We'll mock it up.

Sure, this is what you requested, cool. But this is what we recommend coming from a user point of view. Like how I sort of define user experiences, like you are always the advocate for the user. There's gonna be a lot of different opinions coming your way, block it out.

It's all about the user. And when you put it to a test, that's when you can kind of see like, does option A work, does option B work and let the data really speak for itself. 'Cause once you have the data, it's straight facts and no one has an opinion.

Once they see facts, they're like, cool, we'll go with option B or, you know, whatever the sort of determination or result is. - So you said two things there I love and I wanna kind of double down on them. First one is around being an advocate of the customer.

I can't tell you how many times, even see on the client side where like the product marketing team or whomever brand, like they have a really strong opinion on what they believe the customer wants. And like, they believe they're being customer centric and that's probably informed by customer research or feedback from sales.

So there's a part of that is true, but it's always then stuffed with what you want put in there, right? And it's kind of helping them navigate, kind of deciphering what truly is important to the customer, like the top three things as opposed to the 50. And like global navigation, go to any website, you'll see like, if you wanna learn what a company is all about, look at global nav.

You know, I think I've worked with brands previously where it's like solutions and products, they almost read the same, right? And so I literally did an open card sort and like people were confused. Like, what am I looking at? So like, that's just like to your point, data definitely speaks volumes.

Now, I do wanna ask you a question about measurement because again, clients will always say, I want Apple. It's like, well, not everyone should design a website that looks like Apple, nor is it appropriate for your customer base. But like, you don't know how a certain design element on Apple actually performs.

So you can't necessarily emulate that without data, right? And so, as you're going through and creating design, how do you build in the practice of testing and research and kind of optimizing? Is that part of your normal, your engagement with your client and are they, do they usually push back 'cause they just wanna design something and they're done with it?

Like, how do you approach that? - Yeah, it always depends on the client. I would say a lot of times, clients want things done quickly. They wanna see something fast. They have a vision. They're like, cool, you're the expert, give me feedback. But at the same time, even what we do recommend is coming from a place of maybe only experience and not what the actual customer wants.

So there's two ways you can go about it. The proper way is when you're in the UX phase, you're testing, you're iterating, you're getting that feedback early on. So when you go into design, when you go to build it, it's, you have all your factual data, you have all your requirements, you're just building it based on a spec.

That never really happens. So what we typically do is we build through experience and sort of goals and then at the end, we test. We'll do like A/B testing, we'll do user testing and then sort of refine and modify. We got the big website out, we got the navigation out, we got the big push out.

And once everyone's on the same page that it's not a, we hit this button, it's launched, peace out. It's an ever evolving thing. It makes more sense. And then now we're getting real time feedback. Now we can just continue to iterate. That's usually how most projects sort of go.

- So I got a question I got to ask you. So there's always a humorous to me transition between what a creative delivers versus what's in it being built by a web development. - Yeah. - So how do you, or any, is there a tool or a methodology you use or process to ensure that the highest likelihood of what you design is what is it being built?

Is there any tips for designers to help you transition? - Yeah, the biggest tip I can say is always involve development early in the process. Like your development team, it like, well, I'll just say kudos to our development team because they have a design background. So it makes life easier.

If you don't have that, development needs to happen. Like they need to have a seat at the table at the UX phase. They need to understand what's going on. And also like how I sort of think of creative too is it's not just the creative team. Developers are creative, strategy is creative, data is creative.

So involve them at the beginning because they're going to have ideas on how a cool experience is from the development point of view. So including them early in the process, having them in design review so that they can say, hey, Red Flag, I don't know if I can build that or now's a good time for me to start researching how to build it exactly how you want.

So that would be like tip number one. Number two is Figma is a great tool for design and development collaboration. It gives them code. It allows us to prototype things. A lot of sites right now like are not static. They have motion and movement. And as designers, we used to like say, hey, can you make this like squiggle or whatever?

And the developer is like, I don't know what that means. Now we can like really animate things quickly and be like, hey, is this something that you can do? And you're sort of collaborating in real time with the developer. So that's how you kind of break that barrier from seeing a nice, beautiful comp to what we sort of call developer ready, which is like, hey, what is this?

It doesn't look anything like it. - Yeah. - Helps like smooth all that over. - Yeah, that's a really, really good point. I think bringing development early on, I can think of a lot of the examples where that's actually really, really important. So for example, like these days people want elegant design and sometimes elegant design is more flowy in nature and maybe there you build depth by having layers, maybe the copy and elements sit differently.

But if you're a design developer and you think of the world in terms of horizontal blades, in terms of responsive design, that little edge you wanted to fly out now breaks into another blade. And now that actually physically can't be built that way. And so you're right. Like there's a lot of these creative elements where you just need to fair with development.

Like what can we build? And also be responsive. I always gotta keep mobile in mind, right? You gotta bring them to the table and figure that out. - Yeah, and that collaboration is key. I think one project we worked on together, 'cause you were talking about blades, we designed where it, I think the design had like an angle and it was like, how do you make a nice seamless angle when you have sections on a page?

So if I just delivered the design to the developer, they would have been like, there's no way I can do this. But when you have two heads sort of thinking, it's like, cool, in design, I can kind of fake it. And this one sort of section, like let's have the strip kind of align down here.

And then the other one, bring it up a little higher. So it faked it in the way that the design still looked good. And we were able to have like the different sections. So that like design dev collaboration definitely needs to happen early on in the process. - Cool.

I wanna transition a little bit, just kind of hear a little bit about your journey. Like, did you have a traditional like linear path to where you got here? Is it kind of like choose your own adventure? Kind of like mine was certainly like this, to where you got to where you are.

Are there any kind of like roadblocks you had to overcome and any kind of lessons you can share with the public here? - Yeah, so I think mine was like all over the place. So I started out, I actually started out in engineering, partially, like not even development, like building bridges, like engineering and totally not for me.

And then I moved into architecture, which is why I probably use a lot of architecture references. That's sort of, and that relates to like a lot of UX and wireframes, but that's kind of how I started. I worked at a lot of architecture firms. So that's sort of my background.

And then I would say from there, I just, I knew I wanted to do something creative. I knew I wanted to be in design. Back then there wasn't anything called like user experience. It was just like web design and stuff like that. But I think where I kind of moved around a lot was within different industries of design.

So I worked in fashion, product, tech, finance, like literally anything you can think of and just seeing how design worked there. I'd say that probably the bigger lessons for me was like, I would say, I was always the type of sort of kid who was like, just put my head down and really work.

Like I would try to outwork everyone. First one in, last one out, just really at work. And I was like, cool, I'm introverted, I'm shy. I don't wanna talk, I'm just gonna keep my head down and work. And I realized over time, that only gets you so far. Stops being about, at times it stops being about what you know, but who you know to help guide you, to help open doors, to help even just elevate your own craft.

I'd say that's probably one of the biggest lessons I've learned. And then also, I think too, just kind of like sharing in design world sometimes, like you get a design and you go do your own thing and you share it at the end. And you're like, cool, this is what I did.

Sharing along the way and like involving people in your process, it really elevates and pushes your design and pushes you to think differently. If you see someone else with the same thing, you're like, cool, what am I gonna do next? But you have to share, you have to be open, you have to be collaborative to do that.

So I would say those are probably like the two biggest things I've learned along the way. - Yeah, and I think even reading between the lines there, you have to be good with receiving constructive criticism too, right? 'Cause like, again, like whether it's you kind of breaking through a mental block or kind of having someone work with you through that, or the design just doesn't meet someone else's standards.

Like you have to be able to take that feedback in to adjust, right? - Yeah, so, okay, I think receiving feedback when I first, so designers typically are very sensitive because they put their passion and their all into feedback or into their work. I'm not really like that. And I think school I went to.

So I went to School of Visual Arts in New York. This school is like, in order to teach there, you have to be a working professional. So you're getting critiqued by like people who potentially can be your boss. Also a lot of great artists came out of this school.

Like, you know, a lot of famous people, but the way that they critiqued was like, they were not shy, they were really blunt. Some people like cry during critiques and what it really established was for you to be able to give your all in your work, but then take a step back when you're being reviewed and actually see different perspectives and listen and understand without feeling an emotional attachment to it.

Through my experience, that's very hard for designers because they're so passionate. But if you're able to sort of separate yourself and be like, okay, this is the work, it's not a reflection of me, you'll be very successful. I'm still practicing that. I'm sure every designer is still practicing that.

But what that also allows you to do too is become more collaborative. It allows you to see things from a different light and a different perspective. And a lot of times that's what creativity is too. - Yeah, I remember when I was at LinkedIn, there was one saying that was always so cheesy, but it's so true.

It's like, they literally say like feedback is a gift. - It is. - But it's also like a double-edged sword too, right? But I think once you get in the habit of soliciting that feedback, that puts you a little more in the control of the feedback loop, as opposed to someone bombarding you from the side and critiquing your screen.

I think you're right. There's an element of productivity where you can control that and then you can prep yourself for that. But you're right. People who are passionate about the work, musicians alike, right? It's also very, very subjective, by the way, right? And so somebody that's kind of, the way I do things is there's critique and then there's their opinion and then there's truth.

So how do I cut through all that critique to find the nugget of truth? And I'll hold onto that, right? And then let the other stuff, don't bother me emotionally. Sometimes I need to go out for a walk to decompress. There's methods, but yeah, you're totally right. I'm kind of curious for people who are looking to maybe explore transitioning into the creative field, right?

Do you have examples of people who maybe come from non-traditional backgrounds and whether it's the mindset carries over or whatever? Can you give some examples of that? - Yeah, there's a few people who I've sort of mentored just when they were transitioning from a completely different industry into design and also their fears about, does this make sense?

So I think one girl I'm thinking of, she was a teacher, high school teacher, and she was just really interested in how to build websites, how to make websites in the creative point of view, totally, completely different than teaching high school students. So she thought, but a lot of those skills are transferable when you're presenting, when you're thinking about how to explain complex, I don't know, mathematic equations to high schoolers or to children.

It's a lot about understanding the audience and the user. That's what user experience is, knowing how to talk to people, knowing how to present. All of the sort of foundational stuff, of course, you gotta learn it, bootcamp, school, sure, that's teachable but the way that you understand, talk to users, she was doing that already.

So it made, it was a tool that she could just use and leverage to kind of set her apart. Teaching was one. I also had someone who was into psychology. I was like, come on, you don't think psychology can transfer? You're always trying to be in the mind and the psyche of a user.

I was like, shoot, just go ahead and do it. I mean, a lot of skills kind of transfer. There was a football player who, hard work ethic, like a lot of things can transfer and really the teachable stuff, you can just learn online. - Yeah, even to turn that on its head, I agree with everything you say.

Like if we define a good designer as someone who has a good sense of who their audience is, has an idea of what they're looking for and it creates a vehicle of which it pleases them to engage, that skill set can translate outside of design as well. You know, like if you're going to go into product marketing where you're trying, or even customer marketing, where you're trying to figure out like, what is it that my customers truly care about and how do I deliver something that matters to them?

Like these all actually matter. As a matter of fact, you might even find niches within each of these marketing roles where having a sense of a creative eye as well as having that mindset might be the aspect that they're missing. And so I think for people who are looking at transitioning careers, like if you feel like you've been in a career and creative your whole life and move out, I don't want you to feel discouraged from doing that.

'Cause as a matter of fact, you are a lot closer than you might realize, but to your point, Janelle, you got to put in some of the work, whether you're within creative or externally, but again, that's teachable, right? So I like how you framed that. - Yeah, even in part of my career, I got really burnt out in design.

I didn't, it was like a lot going on. I just didn't even feel like I wanted to be a designer and I switched to product management. Like I was an engagement manager. I don't know why I did that, but like I had a lot of fun, but even a lot of those skills were transferable because when you're in a management position, especially at an agency, it's really valuable to be able to talk about all of the different, like not industries, but all of the different aspects of the business.

So I was a project manager and I could talk about development without the dev team being there. Not in detail, but you know, like I could talk about design. I could talk about how everything sort of connects. So it really does, like all these skills are really transferable. Even now, like my role right now is leadership.

I can now look at the business in a different way and be like, cool, there's a bunch of problems in the organization that we can be more efficient at. Here are my user groups. How do we get from point A to point C in a seamless way? Like you can take a lot of these tools and apply it literally anywhere.

- Yeah, I totally agree. Like skills absolutely build over time. I remember early in my career, I didn't have the experience to lean on. And so I got, and actually to age myself, I graduated college during like a 2000.com bubble burst. So like marketing was literally the last role people were hiring from.

And I took random jobs at like coffee shops or like I've also did like content entry. I was even in a call center, like calling people at like eight in the morning on a Saturday saying that they overdrafted their bank account by like $2. Now they owe 20, like you get a lot of angry people.

But I think that the key point is if every single experience or project you work on, you have to have a sense of true North in terms of what you want to gain out of that experience. And as long as you're learning something that no job experience is ever beneath you or non applicable to you.

So I'm thinking like even as an early career, let's say you're a production artist and you're like, oh man, I'm just doing, I'm just stamping out templates and they feel very transactional. Well, you could think about, hey, how can I do this more efficiently? Or is there a way to optimize a template?

You just by doing that and change that mindset, you are by the way, not only separating yourself from the rest of your peer group, but you're gaining skills to do that, right? And I think people will notice that. And I think that kind of thing carries through your whole career.

- A hundred percent, a hundred percent. - So Janelle, I got a question for you. So one piece of advice for a early career creative and one piece of advice for someone who's senior, who's looking at growing a career. It's like, what advice would you give to them? - Okay, early career.

The advice I would probably give is, learn and absorb as much as you can from all aspects, inside your field, outside your field, just find where your interests are, learn and absorb as much as you can and take notes and keep them somewhere. For a senior person, I would say, I think for me, I would say balance, learning balance, probably 'cause I struggled with that a lot, but learning to balance and prioritizing the things that are meaningful to you.

- I love that. I agree with all that. I'm like nodding my head. I'm like, yeah, you're like talking to me. How do you read my mind? Transitioning actually out of the world for design a little bit. Like I think earlier I started off this conversation, like totally like throwing compliments away, but it's totally genuine where like, I really expect you as just a human being.

And there's an aspect of like bringing your true, authentic self to work. But even before you can do that, you kind of have to discover that a little bit. And so I'm kind of wondering like, how did you discover your sense of self? Like what did that journey look like?

And then at what point did you feel like that, who you were like outside of work was the same person at work? - I feel like I'm still on that journey. - Okay. - I think for me, like I kind of mentioned this too. I'm like super introverted and I'm super quiet.

So I think for me, whenever I go somewhere, a new company, whatever it is, even outside, like I'm meeting new people, I'm sort of just this sort of quiet person that observes. And then once I start to feel comfortable, I'm like, cool, it's me. Like, woo, like you'll get the full version.

But I think it takes time and a certain space and like your people in order to feel comfortable enough to, you know, like not have to be your authentic self. I think to work wise, like I dealt with like a lot of imposter syndrome. So I couldn't even be able to feel like my authentic self.

So I did a lot of things. Like I went back to school, I joined groups, I joined like clubs or whatever to talk these things out with people who felt the same way. And I was like, cool, I just can be open about this stuff. 'Cause everyone's feeling like this.

It's not just me, I'm not in this alone. And as soon as I started to do that, everyone was like, yeah, I feel the same way. And it became such a safer environment that, yeah, like, cool, if you call me like, you know, on the weekend, I'm the same person as you see me on Monday, except maybe I'm just more sleepy.

It takes time, it definitely takes time. It definitely takes practice. I'm still learning how to just even be more open and authentic and like, it's also just knowing yourself too. And that's a different journey for everyone. - Yeah, the imposter syndrome is a big one. And I absolutely went through it.

I don't know if I share this story with you, Janelle. Like when I was interviewing at LinkedIn, so I was being brought on to be their senior web marketing manager. That was a title where like LinkedIn had just acquired lynda.com and they're trying to launch LinkedIn Learning. And so there's all this stuff, right?

I remember during my interview, like all the way up to the VP who was interviewing me, like they asked questions that were like way in the weeds. And I was like, oh my God, like, they know how, like they could probably do my job and it's not their title.

And when I started working, it was the same way. It's like, oh man, everyone is super smart. And like, I bet you any of these people who like I'm talking to you can probably just come and do my job. And for that first year, I was like really miserable.

I self-inflicted wounds to myself a lot. There were some areas that were legitimately areas of improvement though. Like earlier I mentioned, find the truth nuggets within criticism. Like my area was like analytics. I love analytics now, but back then it was like, I was never the one pulling the data, I was the one using the data.

So now I got to pull my own data. It's like, oh my God, if I pull the wrong data, then I'm screwed, right? And I would present and people would like catch mistakes on the fly. Like that didn't make sense. Or this conclusion like didn't align with what's like, like slide three slides ago on a site, small tiny print, like I don't know how to remember that.

And I really struggled that. And to your point, there was a part of it where I had to just embrace being okay with being vulnerable. I had to just acknowledge that, hey, like first off to your point, I need to get some help. I kind of got some peers to validate whatever.

Someone actually reminded me when this was really helpful. They're like, people hired you because of what's between your ears and your hands as a creative, right? And it's unique to you and they hired you because you're good. And they're so they're not the one who's telling you that you can't do it.

It's you, right? And so like, you kind of have to have that level of self-awareness, kind of get over that. But I think in the Bay Area, like it's imposter syndrome, especially here is like a huge deal. - Yeah, I think I kind of mentioned this before. Like I got burnt out and I switched to becoming an engagement manager.

I was also dealing with a lot of imposter syndrome. I was like, I can't do this. We were getting, I was working at a small startup and in the beginning we were getting like these, you know, smaller clients. It was cool, it was awesome. But once we started getting like these fortune 500 company clients, the conversations I was like, I don't know, this is like foreign language.

I do not know what anybody is talking about here. I was anything, any question I asked, I felt like I was just completely stupid. And I was like, I don't, creative is just not for me. Like maybe let me just, especially it being so subjective. I was like, I can't do this.

I'm gonna become a engagement manager where like, you know, I can just organize stuff and like learn. And a lot of it had to do with one being burnt out, but also too, yeah, it was imposter syndrome. I didn't, and it was only me giving myself this feedback. - Yeah.

- We are really long. I'm still not even over imposter syndrome, but it took me a really long time to learn that it was myself and how to quiet that noise. 'Cause like anytime you start something new, like even if it's a new role or you get a promotion, like imposter syndrome is for real.

Like, you're like, man, can I do this? But it's like, how do you just really quiet the noise? And like you said, they hired you for a reason. They picked you for a reason. You're here for a reason. You're gonna have perspectives and experiences that literally no one else has had.

And that's why, that alone is why you're here. So just like really embrace that. - I would never believe for a second that you're going through aspects of imposter syndrome now, because you're so freaking amazing. I think that's what's important for you to realize. Like the people you're working with are all dealing with their stuff.

And I think when it comes to being like compassionate and empathetic with people, that's where I think that's where the real relationships are made and where you make a difference, right? 'Cause like even speaking with you and kind of figuring like, hey, what are you working through? Like, what are you challenged with?

How can I walk alongside you to get over that? Or maybe it's just me being proactive and giving you verbal confirmation and encouragement. That may be all you need to kind of get over a mini hump that you're experiencing that day. Like, is it kind of something you experience every day as well?

- Oh my gosh, all the time. I think it's more so, it used to be about the work and like presenting it and feeling like I wasn't, I just wasn't good enough to do it. I think now it's changed into when I'm leading and coaching a team, it's like, are you guys sure you want my opinion on it?

You know, or even like sometimes I might have to coach, like, you know, an executive person. I'm like, me, you want my opinion? Like, are you sure? But it's like, you know, I kind of just always go back. Like, we all have very super unique experiences and we just sort of have to, that's why we have a seat at the table or we're coming to make a seat at the table.

Yeah, I totally experience it every day. But a lot of times I just have to be like, is this the truth? Is this how you're feeling? Is this an emotion? Yes, then just quiet that noise because it's, for me, I'm like, it's not gonna go away. It's always gonna be there.

All my self-doubt is gonna be there. I'm human, but like, I just have to quiet it and just speak from my, we were talking about authentic self in my experiences. - Yeah. Well, Janelle, I just want to thank you for this time. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think there's a lot to be learned from what you said.

There's a lot of wisdom in your experience. So just thank you for taking your time with us. - Thank you for having me, Tim. - All right, talk to you later. - All right. - Okay, bye. (gentle music)