What Qualifies as Worldly Music?
00:00:00.000 | (soft music)
00:00:02.420 | - Hello, this is Pastor John.
00:00:05.080 | I get to start this episode by talking
00:00:07.440 | about another Pastor John, John Newton.
00:00:10.440 | Newton was a key leader in England in the 18th century,
00:00:15.260 | as you know, the author of the incredibly popular hymn,
00:00:19.680 | "Amazing Grace."
00:00:21.220 | Newton was a former captain of a slave trading ship
00:00:25.120 | and was dramatically converted from this life of sin
00:00:29.080 | and eventually helped William Wilberforce
00:00:31.880 | in the British slave trade.
00:00:33.760 | So I wanted to take a moment to introduce you
00:00:36.760 | to a new book about a part of Newton's life
00:00:39.580 | that goes overlooked.
00:00:41.000 | His 40 plus years in pastoral ministry
00:00:45.720 | and the amazing ministry of writing letters
00:00:49.100 | to people in need.
00:00:50.900 | The book is written by Tony Reinke,
00:00:52.600 | the host of this podcast.
00:00:54.740 | Tony calls his book "Pastoral Synthesis."
00:00:58.400 | He wants you to be pastored by John Newton.
00:01:01.080 | And so he gathered up all of Newton's many published letters
00:01:05.480 | about a thousand of them in various collections,
00:01:09.120 | many of them preserved in old, rare, fragile volumes
00:01:13.140 | in libraries around the world.
00:01:14.800 | He found them, studied them,
00:01:17.240 | and then identified Newton's key answers
00:01:20.820 | to the perennial questions of the Christian life.
00:01:24.360 | And then Tony wrote all his findings
00:01:27.040 | into a guided tour of Newton's thought.
00:01:30.660 | It's a kind of "Ask Pastor John Newton."
00:01:34.840 | The book releases this week.
00:01:36.720 | It's titled "Newton on the Christian Life to Live as Christ."
00:01:41.640 | I commend it very highly.
00:01:44.000 | (upbeat music)
00:01:53.200 | - Levi, a podcast listener in Indiana,
00:01:55.600 | writes in, "Pastor John,
00:01:57.320 | on whether or not to listen to music
00:01:58.800 | that includes themes of sexual immorality,
00:02:01.000 | materialism, and other forms of worldliness,
00:02:03.880 | is this a decision of individual conviction
00:02:06.460 | or is this music categorically sinful?"
00:02:09.720 | I know many people who say that it is a matter of conscience
00:02:12.140 | for individuals to determine for themselves.
00:02:15.040 | I would love your biblical thoughts on this.
00:02:17.680 | - The first thing that comes to my mind
00:02:19.400 | that needs to be addressed is a cynic,
00:02:23.400 | maybe, or I don't know what you'd call them,
00:02:26.360 | a Christian who thinks good grief.
00:02:29.000 | Don't we have bigger fish to fry
00:02:31.480 | than talking about what kind of music we listen to?
00:02:34.960 | Don't you guys know that people are suffering in the world?
00:02:39.320 | And here we are squabbling about music.
00:02:43.160 | So that person is looking over my shoulder
00:02:47.400 | as I contemplate whether even to answer this question.
00:02:50.160 | And my answer to that person,
00:02:53.000 | as a means to getting toward an answer to the question,
00:02:56.080 | is we always deal with lesser things
00:03:00.600 | for the sake of greater things.
00:03:02.760 | A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
00:03:06.440 | That's why you're concerned about a little leaven.
00:03:09.520 | - Right, exactly.
00:03:10.720 | - You don't say, "Oh, little leavens don't matter."
00:03:12.720 | Well, Paul says, "They matter because big lumps matter."
00:03:15.720 | So yeah, I'm all into big lumps.
00:03:18.080 | I want my life to count for big things and not little things.
00:03:21.880 | Little things affect big things,
00:03:24.960 | especially when kids are growing up.
00:03:27.200 | Most things feel little at one level.
00:03:30.320 | What's the root?
00:03:33.000 | Here's a second question I would ask to this person
00:03:35.280 | who just told me, "Don't waste your time on this question."
00:03:37.920 | What's the root of Christ dishonoring indifference
00:03:43.120 | to the poor and the suffering,
00:03:46.440 | temporal suffering, eternal suffering?
00:03:48.120 | What's the root of that in adults or kids, wherever?
00:03:53.120 | 'Cause that's what this person
00:03:54.440 | presumes to be concerned about.
00:03:55.800 | And I wanna know, what's the root of that kind of Christ
00:03:58.840 | dishonoring indifference?
00:04:03.880 | And the root is Christlessness,
00:04:06.800 | the absence of Christ
00:04:08.720 | as the supreme treasure of our affections,
00:04:11.720 | the absence of His word as a controlling force in our lives.
00:04:15.840 | That's the source of Christ dishonoring indifference
00:04:19.880 | to suffering.
00:04:21.240 | And where does that kind of non-Christ-treasuring heart
00:04:26.000 | come from?
00:04:27.440 | Well, it doesn't come from anywhere.
00:04:29.200 | We're born with it.
00:04:30.440 | Jesus' out-of-the-heart-come murder, adultery,
00:04:34.600 | sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander,
00:04:37.600 | all that stuff is selfishness.
00:04:40.480 | And big acts of selfishness
00:04:43.320 | grow in the soil of selfishness.
00:04:46.560 | So what about music?
00:04:48.880 | What about tending the garden of your heart with music?
00:04:53.600 | What about the ways we tend the soil of our soul
00:04:58.040 | that determine what kinds of things grow in it?
00:05:02.240 | There is such a thing as worldly music.
00:05:07.120 | One of the marks of worldly music
00:05:09.560 | is the exaltation in a worldly view of life.
00:05:14.560 | A worldly view of life is a life that leaves Christ out
00:05:19.520 | and approves of what He disapproves.
00:05:22.960 | That's worldly.
00:05:24.080 | Worldly isn't a sound.
00:05:25.360 | Worldly is leaving Christ out.
00:05:28.240 | That's why it's called worldly and not Christly.
00:05:30.920 | Worldly, and it approves of what He disapproves.
00:05:34.680 | It's called worldly because it treasures the world
00:05:37.600 | above the one who made the world.
00:05:39.400 | It revels in the very self-centeredness
00:05:42.800 | that gives rise to the miseries of the world.
00:05:46.520 | And what does God say about this?
00:05:49.880 | Here's a few texts.
00:05:51.200 | Romans 12, "Do not be conformed to this world,
00:05:54.320 | "but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,
00:05:56.720 | "that you may by testing discern what is the will of God,
00:05:59.560 | "what is good and acceptable and perfect."
00:06:02.240 | So my question is, is the transformation of our minds
00:06:06.240 | helped by soaking them in sin-celebrating world,
00:06:11.240 | the world we're trying not to be conformed to?
00:06:14.880 | Don't be conformed to the sin-celebrating,
00:06:19.880 | Christ-omitting world.
00:06:23.480 | And I think the answer's patent, garbage in, garbage out.
00:06:28.160 | If you soak your mind in the Christlessness of the world,
00:06:34.700 | you will be less Christ-full.
00:06:37.900 | Is the music of the world a helpful path
00:06:41.980 | to renewing your mind to love what the world does not love?
00:06:46.980 | That's the key question.
00:06:48.620 | Or Matthew 5, 8, "Blessed are the pure in heart,
00:06:52.220 | "for they shall see God."
00:06:53.620 | Is our pursuit of purity helped
00:06:57.780 | by enjoying the way the world enjoys impurity?
00:07:02.660 | Or Colossians 3, 1, "If then you have been raised
00:07:06.780 | "with Christ, seek the things that are above,
00:07:08.840 | "set your mind on things that are above,
00:07:10.440 | "not on things that are on the earth."
00:07:11.900 | Does the music that exalts in Christless feeling
00:07:16.580 | and Christless thinking and Christless acting,
00:07:20.660 | does it help us set the mind on Christ?
00:07:25.660 | Paul's concern is that we have the mind of Christ,
00:07:29.980 | that we love what he loves, we hate what he hates,
00:07:33.340 | we enjoy what he enjoys.
00:07:35.540 | Does the music we listen to help that happen?
00:07:39.860 | Or Colossians 3, 5, and 8, "Put to death, therefore,
00:07:43.180 | "what is earthly in you, sexual immorality, impurity,
00:07:46.020 | "passion, evil desire, covetousness, which is idolatry.
00:07:49.220 | "Put them all away, anger, wrath, malice, slander,
00:07:52.340 | "obscene talk from your mouth."
00:07:54.580 | We are to be actively putting to death
00:07:58.780 | in our hearts all things that we be prone to
00:08:03.220 | that are sinful.
00:08:04.940 | Does feeding these inclinations
00:08:08.260 | that we are supposed to kill help us kill them?
00:08:13.500 | Or should we starve them instead of nourishing them?
00:08:18.320 | 2 Peter 2, "Many will follow their sensuality,
00:08:23.320 | "and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed."
00:08:27.460 | The fact is, many who listen to Christ omitting sensuality
00:08:32.460 | are made more sensual.
00:08:37.380 | Our sensitivities to sin are made more dull,
00:08:40.420 | and we are at home more and more with the world
00:08:44.820 | and not with heaven, not with Christ, not with his way,
00:08:47.780 | not with his kingdom, and not with his joy.
00:08:51.420 | Proverbs 13, 20, "Whoever walks with the wise
00:08:55.140 | "will become wise, but the companion of fools
00:08:57.920 | "will suffer harm."
00:08:59.860 | 1 Corinthians 15, "Do not be deceived.
00:09:02.260 | "Bad company corrupts good morals."
00:09:05.580 | And the issue here is not whether you're free to go
00:09:08.700 | among the world and bear witness
00:09:11.220 | to the supreme beauty of Christ anywhere in the world,
00:09:14.040 | among the world, and among the unbelieving,
00:09:16.100 | and among the sensual.
00:09:17.340 | The issue is whether we are at home enjoying ourselves
00:09:21.880 | with the way the world thinks.
00:09:23.660 | Let me say that again.
00:09:24.980 | The issue is whether we are at home
00:09:28.500 | and enjoying ourselves with the way the world thinks.
00:09:33.500 | I'm listening right now to Richard Wernbrandt's
00:09:38.780 | "Tortured for Christ," written 40 years ago.
00:09:42.660 | He was imprisoned as a Romanian pastor
00:09:44.920 | during the Communist takeover in Romania.
00:09:46.820 | For 14 years, he was in jail and tortured.
00:09:49.540 | And just yesterday, just yesterday, I heard him say,
00:09:54.700 | this is a rough quote, I couldn't find it on the tape.
00:09:56.740 | I tried to go back and find it, so I'm paraphrasing.
00:09:58.700 | Many of those who were willing to deny their faith
00:10:02.620 | and accept the Communist rule were put in charge
00:10:04.900 | of the state-approved church.
00:10:06.580 | And he said, "They often listen to worldly music."
00:10:11.060 | That was his phrase.
00:10:11.900 | "They often listen to worldly music."
00:10:13.820 | And then he said, took me off guard, he said,
00:10:16.180 | "We too played worldly music, very loud,
00:10:21.180 | "so that it would cover our Bible discussions
00:10:24.040 | "in the underground church and make the Communists
00:10:27.160 | "think that we were like others."
00:10:30.300 | So I would just say, if that's your plan,
00:10:33.280 | listen to worldly music.
00:10:34.700 | - Nice little spin on the topic.
00:10:36.020 | Thank you, Pastor John.
00:10:37.140 | And speaking of music, beautiful and edifying music,
00:10:40.380 | special thanks to cellist Patricia White
00:10:43.180 | for her beautiful rendition of "Amazing Grace"
00:10:46.260 | off her album "Be Still My Soul,"
00:10:48.520 | which we are using in this episode.
00:10:50.980 | And thank you to Pastor John for promoting my new book here
00:10:53.440 | and for writing the foreword to it.
00:10:55.180 | You can read Pastor John's foreword
00:10:56.540 | and find more information about the book
00:10:58.180 | at desiringgod.org/newton.
00:11:01.260 | I'm your host Tony Reinke.
00:11:03.180 | We'll be back tomorrow.
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