Kat Emrick on Surviving Human Trafficking, Finding Forgiveness, and Conspiracy vs. Reality
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat hip hop music)
00:00:03.240 | - Hi, welcome back to another episode of Curious Mike.
00:00:13.380 | I'm here with my friend, Kat.
00:00:15.560 | Really excited to have you on.
00:00:17.000 | You know, this topic is something that I believe
00:00:20.360 | needs to be kind of like spoke about more,
00:00:23.240 | brought into the light a little bit more.
00:00:25.640 | So I appreciate your bravery, like, and everything,
00:00:27.740 | and sharing your story, and being vulnerable.
00:00:30.700 | So why don't we start, like, early childhood.
00:00:33.240 | Like, what was your first memories growing up?
00:00:35.380 | How was your childhood, and all that?
00:00:38.000 | - My childhood was kind of spotty.
00:00:39.840 | My memories are a little spotty back then.
00:00:42.600 | My dad wasn't around much, so I think that's sort of
00:00:45.880 | what led me to what we're going to speak about.
00:00:49.600 | I was super emotional as a kid, very needy for affection.
00:00:54.080 | And my mom had went through, like,
00:00:56.860 | domestic violence situation while I was growing up.
00:00:59.820 | I was like a baby.
00:01:00.660 | My sister was a little older.
00:01:02.420 | My dad used to, like, abuse my mom, and hit her.
00:01:05.520 | And my mom had a daughter after my older sister.
00:01:10.340 | So my sister, Mary Kay, was a little bit older than me.
00:01:13.860 | My mom was pregnant with me when she passed away,
00:01:16.780 | which made my mom decide to finally leave my dad,
00:01:20.140 | because he wasn't, like, supportive.
00:01:21.780 | And she was dealing with domestic violence.
00:01:24.020 | So, after that happened--
00:01:26.920 | - And what age were you around this time?
00:01:29.400 | - My mom was pregnant with me.
00:01:31.040 | - Oh, around this time with her?
00:01:32.040 | - When she passed, yeah.
00:01:33.220 | So, that's why everyone says I'm super emotional,
00:01:36.040 | because my mom was so sad, her whole pregnancy.
00:01:39.320 | But yeah, she passed, and my mom left,
00:01:42.560 | and then she was a single mom for a while.
00:01:45.160 | She got remarried a couple times.
00:01:47.080 | It just, it was a little inconsistent.
00:01:49.280 | We moved a lot.
00:01:50.420 | We didn't stay in one place for a long time.
00:01:52.960 | And she sent me to live with my aunt and uncle,
00:01:56.040 | once or twice, because they had, like, a nuclear family,
00:02:00.640 | like a traditional mom-dad.
00:02:02.800 | They were more well-off than we were.
00:02:05.600 | So I had experiences there, and then they told me
00:02:09.040 | that I had to go back to my mom's,
00:02:10.400 | because my cousin got pregnant at 15.
00:02:13.820 | So, I went back to my mom's,
00:02:15.320 | and that's kind of where everything started.
00:02:18.440 | - And you went back there around what age?
00:02:20.200 | What age is this?
00:02:21.380 | - 13.
00:02:22.220 | - Around 13? - 14, yeah.
00:02:23.460 | - Gotcha. - Yeah.
00:02:24.940 | So, yeah, I moved back with my mom,
00:02:27.200 | and she worked all the time.
00:02:28.660 | She was never home.
00:02:30.100 | So I wasn't getting the emotional support
00:02:32.940 | that I needed at that age.
00:02:34.620 | Like, I very much needed guidance,
00:02:37.020 | and she didn't have a choice but to work, obviously.
00:02:39.760 | So, that's when everything kind of went left.
00:02:43.940 | - So, okay, so you said you were around 13 or so.
00:02:47.880 | You know, mom's working, and you're kind of independent
00:02:51.580 | at a very young age, for the most part.
00:02:53.100 | - Yeah.
00:02:54.500 | - So, like, when was the first time
00:02:57.380 | you got approached by a man inappropriately?
00:03:02.380 | - I was young.
00:03:04.300 | I was, like, that was up with my aunt and uncle.
00:03:06.320 | - Oh, that was back in the day.
00:03:07.160 | - It started happening, like, 11, 12.
00:03:08.660 | - So, this is just something that, like,
00:03:10.220 | all of childhood, you were kind of exposed to a little bit?
00:03:12.860 | - Yeah, I was kind of, like,
00:03:14.260 | I remember, like, construction workers, like,
00:03:16.340 | hitting on me and my friends,
00:03:17.460 | and we were, like, 11.
00:03:18.700 | - Just 'cause you guys were,
00:03:19.860 | had so much freedom and was out doing your thing?
00:03:21.740 | - Yeah, wearing shorts and, like,
00:03:23.000 | a tank top in the summertime,
00:03:24.300 | and it was very sexualized from a very young age.
00:03:27.360 | I don't know if it's just where I'm from.
00:03:29.020 | Like, I don't know if it's, like, small town syndrome,
00:03:32.140 | but it was crazy.
00:03:33.620 | So, I think, and then not having a dad.
00:03:36.520 | - Right, just for the protection,
00:03:38.260 | or brothers for the protection.
00:03:39.900 | - Yeah, like, I just wanted acceptance, I think.
00:03:42.860 | - Yeah.
00:03:43.700 | - So, I started, like, running away from home
00:03:45.420 | because my mom wasn't around,
00:03:46.880 | and she wouldn't listen to what I needed.
00:03:50.240 | So, I started running away, like,
00:03:52.100 | first started running away to Southwest Detroit
00:03:54.540 | with, like, friends that I'd met in school,
00:03:57.060 | and skipped school all the time,
00:03:59.820 | and eventually ended up moving from Southwest Detroit
00:04:03.460 | out to the West Side.
00:04:04.980 | - With your mom?
00:04:05.980 | - No, just running away.
00:04:08.140 | - Oh, wow.
00:04:08.980 | - Like, I would just hop on a bus
00:04:10.180 | and go into the city by myself.
00:04:13.660 | - And your mom, is she reaching out?
00:04:15.540 | - She had no idea, 'cause she was at work all the time.
00:04:17.840 | - That's crazy.
00:04:18.680 | Okay, so you're doing that.
00:04:20.320 | You're running away from home and things like that.
00:04:23.160 | So, now, kinda, you're in your teenage years.
00:04:25.000 | Get into, kinda, the whole story about everything.
00:04:28.600 | - Yeah, running away to the West Side.
00:04:31.280 | I suck out like a sore thumb.
00:04:33.760 | So, I made a friend there.
00:04:36.840 | Me and her ended up, like, becoming friends,
00:04:39.440 | and just, like, hanging out with people in the neighborhood.
00:04:42.760 | I stayed with her and her boyfriend at the time,
00:04:45.400 | and I thought it was just, like, I'm free,
00:04:48.440 | like, I have, I can do whatever I want.
00:04:50.680 | Like, I thought it was cool.
00:04:52.680 | And in the neighborhood, like,
00:04:54.840 | I think I started to see, like, the darkness.
00:04:57.860 | Like, we would walk down the street,
00:04:59.220 | and, like, guys would try to holler at us,
00:05:01.160 | and if we, like, didn't respond positively,
00:05:04.760 | they would squirt you with, like, pee.
00:05:07.640 | Like, they would fill squirt guns with urine.
00:05:10.080 | - Yeah.
00:05:10.920 | - And spray you.
00:05:11.920 | - I heard that on one of your podcasts,
00:05:13.280 | and I was just thinking to myself, where does that happen?
00:05:15.440 | Like, I've never, you said Southwest Detroit, right?
00:05:17.720 | - No, this was on the West Side.
00:05:18.920 | - West Side.
00:05:19.760 | Like, I've never heard of that,
00:05:20.600 | of guys just having water guns with pee just red-hot.
00:05:24.000 | - Premeditated, I don't know.
00:05:25.800 | - Yeah, crazy.
00:05:26.640 | - They're just trying to cause trouble, I guess.
00:05:28.120 | But, yeah.
00:05:29.080 | So, that was, like, oh, okay,
00:05:30.560 | this isn't just, like, fun and games.
00:05:32.360 | Like, it's actually not okay.
00:05:35.520 | And I went to Coney Island to get, like,
00:05:38.500 | chili cheese fries, 'cause they knew me,
00:05:40.440 | and, like, if I couldn't pay,
00:05:41.600 | they would just, like, hook me up anyway.
00:05:44.040 | And this guy walks in, and he introduces himself,
00:05:49.040 | buys my, pays for my food.
00:05:51.720 | And he was like, "I have it somewhere you can stay.
00:05:54.320 | "You can come, you know, it's cool.
00:05:56.360 | "Like, I'll take care of you."
00:05:57.680 | And I'm like, okay, because I had no idea.
00:06:01.320 | It was, like, a thing.
00:06:02.480 | I didn't know it existed.
00:06:04.200 | I didn't know, like, pimps were a thing.
00:06:06.280 | - Random guy walks in the restaurant.
00:06:08.200 | Random guy walks in and just pays for your food.
00:06:09.880 | - I had known somebody was looking for me for a while,
00:06:12.000 | because, like, I made friends
00:06:14.640 | with the guys in the neighborhood,
00:06:15.800 | but, like, they weren't really my friends.
00:06:17.560 | They were just, like, scouting for him, I think.
00:06:20.300 | And they were like, "Oh, James is looking for you.
00:06:22.000 | "Like, he's, like, you know, next time you come around."
00:06:25.320 | Like, so I think they were just telling him
00:06:27.480 | where I was, essentially.
00:06:28.760 | So, yeah, he ended up picking me up.
00:06:31.460 | I went to the house with him in Brightmoor.
00:06:34.580 | And I walk in, and there's, like, a bunch of girls my age
00:06:37.760 | that looked like me.
00:06:39.480 | And I don't know, I was just like, "What is going on?"
00:06:43.800 | - Was it, like, as soon as you walked in there,
00:06:45.560 | where you did your, like, alarm go off in your head,
00:06:47.920 | or were you just kind of, like, you had no idea?
00:06:50.520 | - No. - You were just kind of naive
00:06:51.440 | to everything at that point? - Very naive, unfortunately.
00:06:54.680 | So, like, the girls were really welcoming and nice,
00:06:57.680 | and there was no, like, warnings.
00:06:59.400 | There was no, like, bad feeling.
00:07:02.240 | He didn't give me any bad vibes at all.
00:07:05.160 | So I think when that part revealed itself,
00:07:08.760 | I was, like, shocked, because I wasn't expecting it.
00:07:11.800 | Like, I thought this person just wanted to help.
00:07:14.840 | But again, I'm naive.
00:07:16.000 | I wasn't raised in, like, a bad neighborhood.
00:07:18.460 | I wasn't raised around people
00:07:19.580 | that I needed to, like, figure out.
00:07:21.980 | So things kind of, like, were cool for a couple weeks.
00:07:25.840 | He took me shopping, bought me clothes,
00:07:28.360 | like, took me to get my tongue pierced.
00:07:30.680 | Like, I was doing all these things,
00:07:33.020 | and I was just like, "Oh, this is so fun,"
00:07:35.240 | not realizing, like, that was a debt I was accruing.
00:07:39.040 | So that, like, when I finally, like, saw him,
00:07:44.200 | like, the real him, we were, I was going up.
00:07:47.240 | There's, like, an attic space.
00:07:48.420 | I was, like, going up there,
00:07:49.760 | and he stopped me on the stairs
00:07:51.240 | and pushed me down on my back,
00:07:54.160 | and was like, "Oh, I have to test you out
00:07:56.160 | "before you start working.
00:07:57.260 | "Like, you have to pay off all the stuff that I got you."
00:08:00.680 | And I was like, "What?
00:08:01.520 | "What do you mean?
00:08:02.500 | "Like, I have to pay it back.
00:08:04.120 | "Like, I'll give it back to you."
00:08:05.600 | Like, I didn't realize that's not how it works.
00:08:07.480 | You can't just be like, "Here, take your clothes back.
00:08:10.300 | "I'm gonna go home."
00:08:11.680 | - Yeah.
00:08:12.520 | And this was the first time you saw him switch, like--
00:08:15.640 | - Just completely switch, yeah.
00:08:17.320 | Different person.
00:08:18.280 | Like, the first time I saw in a man's eyes
00:08:21.760 | that he wasn't there.
00:08:23.480 | - Right.
00:08:24.320 | - Like, it's, like, blink.
00:08:26.600 | So it was like, if you're, like, crying
00:08:28.000 | and you're, like, begging them
00:08:28.980 | to not do what they're gonna do,
00:08:30.480 | like, they don't hear you.
00:08:32.400 | - Right. - Because they're just--
00:08:33.580 | - And how many months into the situation
00:08:35.660 | living with him was-- - It was a couple weeks.
00:08:37.360 | - Okay, so he was nice those couple weeks,
00:08:39.020 | buying you things, and then-- - Yeah.
00:08:41.060 | - That first situation happens.
00:08:42.660 | - Yep.
00:08:43.500 | And then, yeah, he sexually assaulted me on the stairs.
00:08:47.900 | And I didn't fight back, I was quiet,
00:08:50.900 | because you're kinda, like, in shock.
00:08:53.540 | And I found out he had done that to all the girls.
00:08:55.820 | Like, all the girls he would rotate.
00:08:58.180 | Later, I figured that out.
00:09:00.140 | But, like, his son was around.
00:09:01.780 | He was, like, three or four.
00:09:03.420 | His baby mama was around.
00:09:05.780 | So she knew what was going on,
00:09:07.300 | but nobody warned me, or warned anyone.
00:09:10.500 | So it was crazy.
00:09:12.580 | - So these girls are living with you for two weeks,
00:09:15.500 | and they never said a word about it.
00:09:17.740 | I wonder, did they feel like they were indebted to him,
00:09:21.140 | or were they just scared?
00:09:22.800 | Or what are you thinking?
00:09:23.640 | - Probably scared.
00:09:25.380 | And some of them, I think, like, kind of, like, accepted
00:09:28.280 | this was their life.
00:09:30.860 | - Just what they had gotten into.
00:09:31.780 | - Yeah, so they were, like, making the most of it.
00:09:34.060 | - Right.
00:09:34.900 | - Like, we would goof off, and, like,
00:09:36.260 | hang out, and drink, and smoke,
00:09:38.220 | and, like, it was just, like, our new normal, you know?
00:09:42.180 | - And how long did this kinda thing go on,
00:09:45.140 | just in the house with him?
00:09:47.220 | - In the house, not long.
00:09:48.980 | - Okay.
00:09:49.820 | - So once he, like, kinda made that clear,
00:09:53.460 | he would start taking me with him, like, out.
00:09:56.900 | So there was him and this other guy with dreads.
00:09:58.780 | I don't remember his name.
00:10:00.220 | But he drove, like, a Bronco.
00:10:01.580 | I specifically remember the Bronco.
00:10:03.900 | And they would take us, like, outside of the city.
00:10:06.880 | So we would do, like, in-calls with, like,
00:10:09.980 | people in suburbs, like, my neighborhood.
00:10:12.380 | We went to, like, neighborhoods right around my neighborhood
00:10:14.520 | where my mom was.
00:10:16.620 | And they would just send us in the house.
00:10:18.340 | Nobody would be with you.
00:10:19.600 | You'd go in, like, 13, 14-year-old girls.
00:10:22.860 | There'd be a guy there waiting,
00:10:25.180 | and then you would have to do whatever he asked you to do,
00:10:28.420 | and then leave.
00:10:30.020 | - So at this point, you guys are 13 and 14-year-old.
00:10:32.620 | - Mm-hmm.
00:10:33.460 | - See, I didn't realize you were that young.
00:10:38.540 | And so, at this point, you know what it is,
00:10:41.100 | and you're just, like, living his life.
00:10:43.940 | Was there, like, did you come up with any,
00:10:47.140 | so you're going into these houses by yourself.
00:10:49.240 | Are you trying to come up with any plans to escape,
00:10:52.980 | or are you just kind of accepting it,
00:10:54.540 | or how did that process go for you?
00:10:56.180 | - I think it was, there was one time,
00:10:58.180 | me and a girl tried to get away.
00:11:01.660 | There was, like, a neighbor who was,
00:11:03.580 | I think it was one house down, maybe two.
00:11:06.100 | But she was, like, an older lady,
00:11:07.500 | and we would always talk to her.
00:11:08.700 | Like, she was cool with James,
00:11:10.020 | so I wasn't sure if it was, like,
00:11:12.300 | a safe place to go and talk.
00:11:14.860 | But she was like, "Yeah, like,
00:11:15.940 | "you guys need to come over here,
00:11:17.300 | "like, four in the morning when everyone's sleeping,
00:11:19.560 | "and my son will come and pick you up
00:11:21.980 | "and take you out of here."
00:11:24.380 | Really cool, like, we're gonna do it.
00:11:26.840 | So the next morning, we get up early,
00:11:29.180 | we're, like, sneaking out the door to go over there,
00:11:32.180 | and she let us in.
00:11:33.880 | She's, like, smoking crack.
00:11:36.140 | She's, like, offering us crack.
00:11:37.980 | And then I was like, this is, like, not,
00:11:40.580 | this is not what I thought it was.
00:11:41.980 | Like, this is not a safe place.
00:11:44.240 | Her son comes and picks us up,
00:11:46.300 | takes us to his house,
00:11:47.740 | and then essentially informs us
00:11:49.460 | that we are now going to be working for him.
00:11:52.140 | So it was not, like--
00:11:55.280 | - Yeah, so she was on the same--
00:11:56.120 | - She was hustling me, or hustling us, basically,
00:11:58.760 | to try to get her son doing what James was doing.
00:12:03.040 | - Okay, so did James ever find out and you guys--
00:12:06.220 | - We ended up going back.
00:12:07.440 | Like, we ended up, like, leaving that guy's house
00:12:09.800 | because he wasn't as organized, he wasn't organized.
00:12:13.280 | James, like, had people circling the block all the time,
00:12:15.860 | so if we walked outside, we knew people were watching us.
00:12:19.080 | Like, they would just roll by all day.
00:12:21.040 | But this guy didn't, so we just took off
00:12:24.480 | and went back.
00:12:25.700 | - Okay, so during this time,
00:12:27.900 | obviously you're not having a lot of communication
00:12:29.780 | like with your mom.
00:12:31.020 | Is she worried, or is she, at this point,
00:12:33.780 | you know, you had gone away from the house so many times?
00:12:36.840 | - She was looking for me.
00:12:38.300 | - The entire time?
00:12:39.140 | - In the beginning, well, the whole time.
00:12:41.540 | There was a lot that transpired before James,
00:12:44.260 | like, when I was running away.
00:12:46.180 | Like, I was with this one guy that was in his 30s,
00:12:48.980 | and we would, like, sleep outside
00:12:50.640 | in downtown Detroit in Hart Plaza, like, wintertime,
00:12:54.560 | because I just, like, didn't wanna be home.
00:12:56.680 | Like, I had some sort of thing with my mom.
00:12:59.440 | I don't know what it was.
00:13:00.320 | I'm trying to figure that out in therapy now.
00:13:02.500 | But there were so many instances where I ran away
00:13:05.760 | and was doing, like, stupid things.
00:13:08.880 | In this situation, though, she was looking,
00:13:11.280 | she was telling the police, there were reports made,
00:13:14.320 | and they wouldn't do anything.
00:13:15.680 | Like, they weren't, like, "She's a runaway.
00:13:18.200 | "She's a runaway."
00:13:19.040 | Like, it's not like I was a missing person.
00:13:21.060 | I was running away.
00:13:22.500 | - Right.
00:13:23.340 | - So they weren't taking it very seriously.
00:13:24.900 | But she did end up finding me.
00:13:26.940 | We can get to that, but.
00:13:28.060 | - Right.
00:13:28.900 | Okay, so yeah, continue kind of with the story from there.
00:13:31.340 | So this is kind of becoming a thing.
00:13:33.740 | James is taking you out with him,
00:13:35.140 | and it's this whole system going on.
00:13:38.260 | So then, yeah, go from there.
00:13:39.960 | - We went to, we were doing outcalls at houses,
00:13:44.020 | and then we would do hotel stuff as well.
00:13:46.580 | So he would get two hotel rooms.
00:13:49.020 | He would take us all there.
00:13:50.100 | We would all, like, mob into one room.
00:13:52.340 | And then the other room was used for, like, clients,
00:13:55.260 | people that came to, like, see us or whatever.
00:13:58.500 | I was in, I had, like, a bleeding disorder.
00:14:01.080 | When I was a teenager, I was taking this birth control,
00:14:03.180 | and I had an adverse reaction.
00:14:04.700 | So I was, like, heavily bleeding,
00:14:06.960 | and it wouldn't stop for weeks.
00:14:09.080 | Like, I was, like, pale.
00:14:10.900 | And he ended up having me meet this,
00:14:14.700 | it was at the Knight's Inn, I believe,
00:14:16.620 | in Sterling Heights or something.
00:14:19.140 | He had me go in this room,
00:14:20.860 | and there was this guy in there.
00:14:23.700 | And he was a doctor, I found out.
00:14:27.180 | And I had to sleep with him,
00:14:28.900 | and he ended up giving me a prescription
00:14:31.000 | for the birth control I needed to stop the bleeding.
00:14:34.220 | So it was, like, (laughs)
00:14:35.820 | - Yeah, what type of messed up stuff is that?
00:14:37.220 | - Crazy, yeah.
00:14:39.340 | And then downtown Detroit, I remember,
00:14:41.020 | the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup that year.
00:14:44.420 | I don't remember what year it was,
00:14:46.000 | but everybody was outside.
00:14:47.940 | Like, all these people wearing wings jerseys.
00:14:50.180 | And we were in a hotel downtown,
00:14:53.100 | and me and this girl, Camille,
00:14:55.100 | and these two guys walk in.
00:14:58.020 | They asked for two girls.
00:15:00.020 | And they were, like, my uncle's age.
00:15:03.580 | Like, they just reminded me of my family members.
00:15:07.500 | And they had wedding rings on, and I was just,
00:15:11.460 | I think at that point, you're, like, nowhere is safe.
00:15:14.660 | You can't trust anybody.
00:15:16.400 | Like, if you have a doctor. - Yeah, 'cause you married guys.
00:15:18.100 | - Married guys, you have.
00:15:20.340 | Anybody you could think of, like,
00:15:21.740 | and I remember leaving some of the houses
00:15:23.480 | and being, like, that guy was so nice.
00:15:25.500 | But, like, you wouldn't believe, like, what he was doing.
00:15:29.580 | - What he's doing on the side. - Like, low-key, yeah.
00:15:31.560 | So the trust issues were,
00:15:34.900 | at that point, you're just, like, accepting.
00:15:36.580 | Like, you can't trust anyone.
00:15:38.620 | - Yeah. - At all.
00:15:40.220 | And we were at this, like, Red Roof Inn,
00:15:42.060 | and it was a rule, you can't leave the room
00:15:44.820 | or talk to anyone.
00:15:46.060 | In the lobby, I'm sure he paid the hotel managers off
00:15:49.420 | or something.
00:15:50.260 | Like, they knew what was going on.
00:15:52.140 | And there was a family down there,
00:15:53.300 | and I was talking to the dad.
00:15:54.780 | And I wasn't, like, telling on him or anything.
00:15:58.780 | But I walked back up in the room,
00:16:00.220 | and Camille was in the room,
00:16:01.300 | and she was, like, looking at me.
00:16:03.340 | And she just kinda, like, does this,
00:16:05.180 | like, letting me know something's up,
00:16:06.620 | but I didn't know what it was.
00:16:08.460 | And I closed the door behind me,
00:16:09.600 | and he popped out and, like, hit me in my face.
00:16:12.600 | - James. - Like, cold-cocked me
00:16:13.760 | in my face.
00:16:14.800 | - This is James. - Yeah.
00:16:15.800 | - Okay. - I think he was in, like,
00:16:17.360 | his late 30s or 40s at this time,
00:16:20.720 | and he was, like, kind of a bigger dude,
00:16:22.160 | probably close to 200 pounds.
00:16:24.300 | And I was not prepared for getting hit in the face.
00:16:28.240 | But that was the first time he, like, physically,
00:16:30.200 | like, hit me.
00:16:31.900 | But he did it to the other girls all the time.
00:16:34.080 | Like, he would, you would just see it.
00:16:36.020 | - And it's not like this guy was bipolar.
00:16:38.880 | Like, sometimes he was nice.
00:16:40.560 | Sometimes he, when he flipped a switch on the stairs
00:16:43.320 | that one day, he never went back to, like, being--
00:16:45.520 | - No, he did.
00:16:46.440 | - He did, it was back and forth.
00:16:47.720 | - It was like, he's nice, unless he's not.
00:16:50.320 | Like, unless he's, there's something that's triggering him,
00:16:54.800 | or he wants you to know he's serious,
00:16:57.160 | like, it would shift.
00:16:59.300 | So you would always try to, like, be good.
00:17:01.640 | - Right. - So you didn't have
00:17:03.000 | to see that, because it was, like, terrifying.
00:17:05.600 | - Yeah. - So you had to just be,
00:17:08.480 | like, obedient, and do what he asked.
00:17:10.940 | And his son was always with him,
00:17:14.140 | and I remember from a very young age,
00:17:15.720 | always, like, thinking about his son.
00:17:18.800 | - Yeah. - So it'd be like,
00:17:19.640 | I can't say anything, I can't do anything,
00:17:21.380 | I can't act crazy, or be, like, disobedient
00:17:25.040 | in front of his kid, because then his kid
00:17:26.640 | would see him hitting a woman.
00:17:29.360 | And then his kid is gonna grow up and do the same thing.
00:17:32.000 | - I think it's very admirable that that was your thoughts
00:17:34.240 | during that time, you know what I mean?
00:17:35.720 | - Yeah. - Like, actually thinking
00:17:36.560 | about this guy's kid, instead of, you know,
00:17:39.080 | throwing a tantrum, and--
00:17:40.800 | - There's no, yeah, there's no point in doing that.
00:17:43.560 | - Okay, so that incident happened,
00:17:46.040 | and did this become, like, a regular thing,
00:17:48.080 | or what went on from there?
00:17:50.840 | - What do you mean, like, going--
00:17:51.880 | - From him hitting you.
00:17:53.380 | - No, I don't remember him hitting me again after that,
00:17:57.100 | because there was no reason to.
00:17:59.120 | It was just quiet.
00:18:00.360 | - It was quiet the entire time.
00:18:01.200 | - Didn't do anything, yeah, and I was staying at his,
00:18:05.640 | we were back at the house.
00:18:06.840 | I remember going out, I was with some guy.
00:18:09.000 | He was dropping me off.
00:18:10.480 | We had just, like, did stuff.
00:18:13.760 | And my mom, like, I didn't realize it was my mom,
00:18:17.120 | but we pulled up on this, like, side street.
00:18:20.000 | And I see a blue Sunfire parked,
00:18:22.340 | and the interior light is on, and I see, like, a white lady.
00:18:27.000 | And I was like, that's weird.
00:18:28.720 | And then I was like, that's my mom.
00:18:31.040 | So as soon as I saw her, and she saw me,
00:18:34.360 | she, like, locked in, and, like, turned her mom voice on.
00:18:38.120 | It was like, Catherine Michelle, get in this car right now.
00:18:41.280 | So I got in the car and told her what,
00:18:44.440 | I didn't tell her what happened.
00:18:46.600 | I didn't tell her, actually,
00:18:47.600 | until I was, like, in my late 20s.
00:18:49.640 | Like, the--
00:18:51.260 | - The extent of everything.
00:18:52.100 | - The extent of it.
00:18:53.420 | And she, anyway, she took me
00:18:55.440 | to the police station down the street.
00:18:57.760 | And the cops were just very, like, dismissive,
00:19:00.360 | and were like, well, you probably
00:19:02.440 | should just, like, leave it alone.
00:19:03.800 | Like, you don't know who he is.
00:19:05.640 | It's not safe.
00:19:07.240 | My mom's like, there's a house full
00:19:08.640 | of girls underage over there.
00:19:10.120 | Like, my daughter is telling you this,
00:19:11.680 | and you're not doing anything.
00:19:12.860 | They're like, well, it's not that simple.
00:19:15.240 | And it was just not, I just wanted to go home.
00:19:18.800 | - So that's one question I have for you.
00:19:20.640 | So why do you think that, like,
00:19:24.560 | law enforcement and everything is so dismissive of the,
00:19:27.480 | and one of the reasons I wanted you to get on this podcast
00:19:29.640 | is 'cause I feel like this issue is so under-talked about.
00:19:32.840 | And I remember looking it up on Google or something,
00:19:36.080 | the amount of times this happens to kids underage,
00:19:40.160 | but, you know, people in general is, like, crazy,
00:19:43.640 | but it's not a mainstream talked-about thing.
00:19:46.240 | And I feel like even, you know, you go to law enforcement,
00:19:49.160 | you tell them what's going on, and they don't act on it.
00:19:51.600 | Have you thought about why you think that is?
00:19:54.460 | - I don't know.
00:19:55.300 | I honestly, I'm sure it's, like, hard to develop a case,
00:19:59.540 | but the fact that he just got arrested
00:20:02.580 | and put in prison, I don't wanna say for sure.
00:20:05.520 | I think it was, like, 2012-ish, or '13 maybe.
00:20:09.960 | I'll have to look it up.
00:20:10.800 | But he was locked up, and he's still in prison.
00:20:12.680 | He's eligible for parole in 2028.
00:20:15.160 | But between the time this happened to me and that time,
00:20:18.580 | like, how many girls did he affect?
00:20:21.920 | Like, because the cops were dragging their feet,
00:20:24.160 | or, like, oh, we're building a case.
00:20:25.720 | For how many years?
00:20:26.720 | Like, how many girls are sacrificed
00:20:28.320 | so that you can get a case?
00:20:29.480 | Like, come on. - Right.
00:20:30.840 | - It just doesn't make sense.
00:20:32.040 | - It doesn't make sense at all.
00:20:33.040 | - And the runaway aspect, like,
00:20:34.840 | the human trafficking stuff is so focused
00:20:38.180 | on the very extreme cases.
00:20:41.520 | Like, three-year-olds, four-year-olds,
00:20:43.560 | like, being trafficked across countries and, like, all that,
00:20:47.000 | which is a huge issue, don't get me wrong.
00:20:49.440 | But domestically, like, the teenage girls
00:20:52.200 | that are running away, that are at risk
00:20:55.320 | because they're rebelling, or they don't have a dad,
00:20:57.600 | or their parents are on drugs, or whatever,
00:21:00.080 | or they just need a little bit more attention emotionally
00:21:02.640 | from their parents, they're being trafficked,
00:21:06.120 | and nobody's talking about it because it's,
00:21:08.320 | if they get picked up on the street,
00:21:09.560 | they get arrested and booked for prostitution.
00:21:11.880 | - Right. - And they're 14 and 15.
00:21:13.880 | So it's just crazy to me.
00:21:17.520 | - It's unbelievable.
00:21:19.240 | So your mom sees you, she has you get in the car.
00:21:23.480 | Did this guy come back after you at all,
00:21:26.040 | or did he just leave it completely alone
00:21:27.840 | once your mom got you? - Left it.
00:21:30.040 | Left it alone, and I, like, dealt with, like, guilt
00:21:33.800 | because I left girls behind.
00:21:35.480 | - Yeah.
00:21:36.680 | - Like, I don't know what happened to them.
00:21:37.960 | I don't know where they are.
00:21:39.360 | Like, he had another house where he kept older women,
00:21:42.680 | but I don't know, I never met any of them.
00:21:45.040 | I just remember pulling up there, he would run drugs in,
00:21:48.400 | and come back out, and we would leave.
00:21:50.600 | - Okay. - But everyone,
00:21:51.600 | like, it's hearsay, but everyone was like,
00:21:53.440 | that's where he keeps the girls that, like,
00:21:56.200 | were no longer teenagers, they're addicted to substances
00:21:59.040 | because that's how he would get girls to, like, stay,
00:22:02.080 | essentially, they would rely on him for drugs.
00:22:05.000 | And then he just kind of hid them away,
00:22:06.960 | and I think those women were working, like, the street
00:22:10.360 | where we were doing, like, private in-calls.
00:22:13.000 | - Private, you know. - Yeah.
00:22:14.200 | - Yeah, that makes sense.
00:22:15.640 | So how many years after you get out of this situation
00:22:20.360 | is he finally, they build a case, and they arrest him?
00:22:23.200 | - Year, like, so long, like, over a decade.
00:22:26.200 | - And what did they get him for?
00:22:27.960 | 'Cause you just said he's out for parole, 2028?
00:22:30.440 | - 2028, he's out for parole.
00:22:32.960 | It was, like, prostitution, solicitate, like, all the,
00:22:37.960 | everything was, everything he got in trouble for
00:22:40.440 | was for, like, prostitution-related crimes.
00:22:44.040 | - And that's a--
00:22:45.360 | - Like, I have all of his court transcripts
00:22:47.080 | that I'm sifting through right now, but that's it.
00:22:49.840 | There was no rape on there, which really bothered me.
00:22:53.440 | - Right. - 'Cause I had reached out
00:22:54.600 | to a detective in Southfield,
00:22:55.960 | 'cause that's where he got caught up.
00:22:58.240 | And I was like, "Hey, I had interactions with this man.
00:23:00.600 | "He raped me when I was a young teen.
00:23:03.160 | "What is the statute of limitations?"
00:23:05.520 | And she was very, it's like,
00:23:07.480 | almost like they don't wanna deal with it,
00:23:09.280 | 'cause it's so much paperwork.
00:23:11.500 | She's like, "Well, you need to write down
00:23:12.780 | "every single thing that happened
00:23:13.920 | "the whole time you were with him and send it to me."
00:23:16.360 | And I wasn't, like, at a place in my healing journey
00:23:19.320 | where I could sit down and write everything down,
00:23:22.000 | step-by-step, like, that's a lot, it takes a lot.
00:23:24.360 | I'd rather talk about it, but that's not really an option.
00:23:27.360 | - So, all this happens, you go back with your mom,
00:23:32.600 | and you said you didn't really tell her
00:23:33.680 | the extent of things.
00:23:34.700 | Like, what was your life like for those next,
00:23:38.080 | like, how did you move on from this?
00:23:40.040 | Was there, like, what happened after this?
00:23:43.240 | - I pretended it didn't happen.
00:23:46.000 | - Really, and you're what age at the time?
00:23:48.320 | - I was, like, 15, 16, well, I met my son's dad
00:23:53.720 | when I was 16, so when I came back with my mom,
00:23:56.260 | she sent me to alternative education,
00:23:58.480 | like an adult education, with all the bad kids.
00:24:02.160 | - Yeah.
00:24:03.000 | - So, I met this girl there, and we used to go
00:24:05.440 | to River Rouge all the time,
00:24:06.680 | which is, like, on south of Detroit.
00:24:09.000 | And I met her cousin, he was 24, I was 16,
00:24:14.000 | and I got pregnant, like, a month or two months
00:24:17.800 | after we met.
00:24:19.560 | - Is this guy a good dude?
00:24:21.200 | - No.
00:24:23.300 | I raise my kids by myself, he's not involved.
00:24:26.280 | - Really?
00:24:27.120 | - But, yeah, he was, like, a good dad for a while,
00:24:30.480 | and then I left, because he was emotionally abusive.
00:24:34.080 | - Yeah.
00:24:34.920 | - So, I left once I, like, grew up,
00:24:36.680 | and, like, realized this is not okay.
00:24:39.020 | And after that, he is not involved.
00:24:43.280 | He pays $46 a week in child support.
00:24:46.200 | - This dude does?
00:24:47.920 | - For two kids, yeah.
00:24:50.060 | - Well, you are a warrior.
00:24:52.680 | Yeah, I wanna, like, bring some attention to this,
00:24:56.940 | because, so, I'm sure all these things that come out,
00:25:00.040 | like the Sound of Freedom movie and all these things,
00:25:02.940 | I'm sure they hit a little different
00:25:04.860 | for you being kinda, like, in that situation.
00:25:08.120 | The other day, I was on a Zoom call
00:25:10.060 | with Child Rescue Coalition.
00:25:13.300 | I don't know if you know what that is.
00:25:14.580 | - Yeah.
00:25:15.420 | - They're a non-profit for,
00:25:16.300 | but they were walking me through how they developed
00:25:18.180 | the software to, like, figure out these guys
00:25:21.360 | who are, you know, creating material,
00:25:24.200 | and they're able to track them.
00:25:25.760 | They give all this information to law enforcement.
00:25:27.840 | All law enforcement has to do is go
00:25:30.280 | and look at these cases, look at the,
00:25:34.480 | and they can, all they gotta do is call the Comcast
00:25:37.600 | or whoever it is and get the physical address,
00:25:39.600 | but they, so many cases are left, like, on--
00:25:42.680 | - They don't even follow through on it.
00:25:44.000 | - They don't even, like--
00:25:44.840 | - It's so frustrating.
00:25:45.660 | - To believe, like, how much this issue is, like, ignored.
00:25:49.920 | Like, it's one of the most prevalent, like, crimes
00:25:53.400 | that is not really talked about,
00:25:55.120 | and I was asking them the same question, like,
00:25:58.320 | why do you think it's not more mainstream?
00:26:00.760 | Why do you think when "Sound of Freedom" comes out,
00:26:02.580 | some of the mainstream media outlets
00:26:04.920 | are kinda, like, pushing back on this movie?
00:26:07.960 | I just couldn't wrap my head around it.
00:26:10.360 | Do you have, like, any thoughts on why you think that is?
00:26:14.240 | - I, this, I haven't seen "Sound of Freedom."
00:26:17.120 | I just spoke about this, actually, last week.
00:26:19.120 | I did a podcast with this man I met in prison
00:26:22.520 | doing a basketball program.
00:26:23.760 | We went to a prison between the lines
00:26:26.160 | and played basketball with the inmates,
00:26:28.720 | and he has a podcast, and we spoke about "Sound of Freedom"
00:26:32.320 | and how there are certain undertones in the movie.
00:26:37.320 | I think that, for me, these movies are great for awareness,
00:26:42.320 | but it very much, like, makes me feel, like,
00:26:45.400 | a Wayfair type of situation.
00:26:47.160 | I don't know if you remember that, like, media storm
00:26:49.860 | where, like, they were, like,
00:26:50.720 | they're shipping kids in cabinets.
00:26:53.280 | It was crazy, and--
00:26:55.040 | - Do you not believe in that,
00:26:55.880 | or do you think that happened, or not?
00:26:57.040 | - I, no, I'm so, I just feel like it was such a conspiracy.
00:27:01.640 | - So the conspiracy side of all this, you know,
00:27:03.600 | these rich, white dudes that are, you know,
00:27:08.080 | getting these kids and doing this crazy stuff,
00:27:09.960 | you don't really believe in that side of it?
00:27:12.120 | - I do, 'cause there were rich, white dudes buying me.
00:27:15.600 | - Yeah. - So, yeah.
00:27:16.800 | I mean, that's another huge problem.
00:27:18.800 | Why aren't the men who are purchasing children,
00:27:22.520 | why aren't they going to prison?
00:27:24.740 | - Yeah.
00:27:25.580 | - Why is my pimp in prison for all those years?
00:27:30.580 | I mean, he deserves it, but all the men that purchased me
00:27:34.760 | and the girls that were with me, like, where are they at?
00:27:37.720 | They're just out, like, living their life.
00:27:39.760 | - It's a supply and demand situation, so.
00:27:42.920 | - They may have a whole family, whole kids.
00:27:45.280 | - They have no idea.
00:27:46.120 | - And they're, no idea that these guys
00:27:48.160 | are going to hotels. - Yeah.
00:27:49.800 | - Did you ever, in your mind, like,
00:27:52.580 | want to expose these individuals that you met,
00:27:56.760 | or was there no-- - If I knew who they were,
00:27:58.440 | I would put them on blast.
00:28:00.200 | If they have daughters and their daughters have sleepovers,
00:28:04.480 | like, these are the things I think about.
00:28:06.720 | So, you are married, I always pay attention
00:28:09.640 | to, like, rings, or if they're putting something
00:28:12.000 | in their pocket when they come in.
00:28:14.040 | It's their ring, usually.
00:28:16.280 | And I'm like, I'm not stupid.
00:28:17.800 | Like, you start to, like, learn game really quickly,
00:28:21.400 | 'cause you have to.
00:28:22.840 | And I would just think about that, like,
00:28:24.600 | if you have a daughter at home,
00:28:26.000 | or if you have a son, or whatever, like,
00:28:29.000 | what are you doing at home?
00:28:30.840 | Does your wife know what's going on?
00:28:32.400 | Or you're not using protection
00:28:35.040 | with the children you're sleeping with,
00:28:36.480 | and neither are 15 other men who are doing the same thing,
00:28:39.700 | and then you're taking those things back to your family,
00:28:41.680 | or, it's just crazy to me.
00:28:44.800 | - It's really hard to talk about, honestly,
00:28:49.280 | just because it can happen to so many people.
00:28:52.180 | So many people don't grow up in a stable household,
00:28:54.440 | and I feel like those are the, kind of,
00:28:57.000 | the environments that it can happen.
00:28:58.520 | But even, like, you know, I've heard so many stories
00:29:01.180 | about even, like, kids at a park or something,
00:29:06.700 | and their parent turns their head for a second,
00:29:09.020 | and it just, I just don't understand
00:29:13.580 | why it's not, like, pushed more of it as an issue.
00:29:18.580 | That's the thing that I, kind of, like,
00:29:22.900 | when we had the opportunity to speak about,
00:29:24.500 | that was the thing that I, kind of, wanted to get across,
00:29:27.820 | is, like, this is, like, a mainstream issue,
00:29:30.980 | but it's getting pushed to the back burner.
00:29:32.300 | And that's why I think, like,
00:29:33.120 | the conspiracy side of it,
00:29:35.140 | like, why, is it the same people in power,
00:29:37.220 | you think, that are doing it?
00:29:39.100 | Or what, do you think the police officers,
00:29:40.740 | kind of, like, knew who this guy was,
00:29:42.980 | and they just, kind of, were involved?
00:29:44.740 | - They knew who he was, 'cause they warned my mom,
00:29:46.940 | but I don't know, like, how,
00:29:51.180 | as far as, like, I think about, like,
00:29:55.160 | Jeffrey Epstein or whatever.
00:29:56.820 | - I was gonna ask you about that.
00:29:57.660 | - And, like, the documentaries about him,
00:29:59.960 | and how, and the woman that was with him,
00:30:03.420 | how all of it is so focused on them,
00:30:06.340 | and not what the damage they did
00:30:10.960 | has done to the people that were affected.
00:30:14.660 | So, we have to, like, live with it forever.
00:30:16.980 | I have to get therapy.
00:30:18.480 | I have to figure out how to make my life work as a mom,
00:30:21.420 | and business owner, and how I interact with the public.
00:30:24.460 | You know, for years,
00:30:25.300 | I couldn't go outside by myself at night.
00:30:27.060 | Like, I would have full-on panic attack.
00:30:29.420 | If a man was anywhere behind me,
00:30:32.120 | like, full-on fight or flight.
00:30:33.940 | Like, I'd be shaking.
00:30:35.220 | - Yeah.
00:30:36.100 | - And it's taken so long to get past it,
00:30:40.020 | and it's not really fair.
00:30:42.060 | - It's not fair at all.
00:30:43.580 | I mean, I think that part of the putting this kind of,
00:30:47.460 | at least stopping it a little bit,
00:30:49.660 | is kind of going after these guys
00:30:51.700 | who just think that because they have money,
00:30:53.820 | or because they can do these things to these children,
00:30:57.780 | women in general.
00:30:59.700 | But obviously, like, it's so many people
00:31:01.600 | that are affected by it.
00:31:02.440 | Even, like, there's so many people
00:31:04.000 | that don't talk about it 'til they're way older,
00:31:07.040 | but, like, it may have happened by an uncle,
00:31:10.320 | or someone else when they're young.
00:31:12.880 | How have you been able to find, like,
00:31:15.560 | any sort of healing, like, from this?
00:31:18.480 | - Well, the interview last year was a big step for me.
00:31:22.200 | I didn't talk about that side of things ever.
00:31:25.900 | So, there's, like, well, I'm a single mom, obviously,
00:31:29.300 | like, starting to date, and, like,
00:31:31.520 | carrying the weight of what I did as a teenager is hard,
00:31:35.920 | because, like, regardless of if it's my fault or not,
00:31:38.300 | or if it was consensual or not,
00:31:40.320 | I was like, I have, like, bodies.
00:31:43.420 | Like, at 36, like, between the age of, like, 13 and 15,
00:31:47.680 | like, there were a lot of people, like, sexually.
00:31:52.120 | So, I think the shame tied in with that,
00:31:54.640 | I didn't wanna talk about.
00:31:55.920 | I didn't tell my mom, like,
00:31:57.760 | I didn't want her to think about me as, like,
00:32:00.280 | being promiscuous or being a prostitute, essentially.
00:32:05.080 | Like, I don't wanna be put into that category.
00:32:08.340 | Not that there's anything wrong with it.
00:32:09.800 | People that consensually do it
00:32:11.100 | and want to do it on their own, that's their own thing.
00:32:13.520 | But when you're a kid,
00:32:15.780 | I don't think it fits in the same category.
00:32:17.940 | You're not working. - No, of course not.
00:32:20.520 | - It's not your job.
00:32:21.440 | So, I think in dating and, like,
00:32:24.800 | trying to build my confidence and, like,
00:32:26.440 | feel empowered when I'm interacting with men,
00:32:30.180 | I kind of had to just be like, this is, like, me.
00:32:33.080 | This is what happened.
00:32:34.640 | This is my history.
00:32:35.480 | It's part of who I am.
00:32:36.440 | It's why I do a lot of things I do.
00:32:38.820 | So, it's important that people know that.
00:32:41.740 | And yeah, I don't, that's just, it took a long time.
00:32:45.680 | And when my mom finally saw the interview,
00:32:47.240 | she, like, lost her mind.
00:32:50.900 | - Yeah, I'm sure.
00:32:51.740 | - She was like, I had no idea.
00:32:53.040 | And I'm just like,
00:32:53.880 | I didn't want you to think I was, like, dirty.
00:32:56.200 | - How did she react to that interview?
00:32:58.880 | - She was hurt.
00:33:00.040 | - Just, I'm sure she felt like, yeah.
00:33:04.120 | - People came for her.
00:33:05.440 | - Yeah, I'm sure she felt, you know,
00:33:07.600 | guilty about things as well.
00:33:10.280 | - But I ran, like, I don't blame her.
00:33:12.400 | She did the best she could with what she had.
00:33:14.240 | She was severely abused, lost a child,
00:33:16.720 | never went to therapy.
00:33:18.120 | Wasn't, I feel like, our parents' generation,
00:33:22.200 | they aren't as in touch with that.
00:33:24.160 | It's more of, like, a forget it and move on.
00:33:27.320 | Don't live in the past kind of thing.
00:33:29.560 | When you don't realize your past is always with you,
00:33:32.120 | it, like, affects everything that you do.
00:33:34.340 | - Right.
00:33:35.380 | So there's a such thing as called, like, generational,
00:33:37.880 | kind of, like, curses or generational, you know, traumas,
00:33:41.260 | where, you know, maybe the parent of a child
00:33:44.860 | is doing something, but the child sees it,
00:33:46.840 | and then they grow up, and the same thing happens to them,
00:33:48.680 | or they do the same thing.
00:33:51.680 | - Are you, like, obviously, you know,
00:33:53.680 | speaking about a healing from it and things like that,
00:33:56.300 | you've broken that, but was that, do you think,
00:33:59.780 | because of how your father treated your mom,
00:34:02.460 | that, in turn, like, affected you to,
00:34:06.800 | do you think, how do you think that all went together?
00:34:09.420 | - Yeah, I still deal with dad stuff.
00:34:11.860 | So, I am not really great at relationships.
00:34:16.860 | I am just, like, always waiting for the person to bail
00:34:20.400 | at any given moment.
00:34:22.100 | I'm never, like, comfortable and content.
00:34:24.380 | I'm always on the edge of my seat,
00:34:26.460 | waiting for the shoe to drop.
00:34:28.400 | They'll be, like, oh, I like you so much,
00:34:29.900 | but, and I'm, like, just wait until you see, like,
00:34:33.280 | the trauma stuff, or I talk about that, like,
00:34:35.720 | and then they can't handle it, and they dip,
00:34:38.280 | and then I'm, like, oh, I was right, like, they left.
00:34:41.680 | So it's almost, like, this cycle of, I do self-sabotage.
00:34:45.340 | I've had, like, good relationships that I just,
00:34:48.420 | it's almost, like, you don't know how to act
00:34:50.860 | when somebody's, like, genuinely into you,
00:34:52.800 | or being nice, or treating you nicely.
00:34:56.600 | It's kind of, like, why are you being nice to me?
00:34:58.940 | Because, like, James did that.
00:35:01.220 | - Yeah, yeah. - And look what happens.
00:35:02.820 | So I'm just, like, what's the motive?
00:35:05.460 | - Has any of this, 'cause I know, like, you know,
00:35:09.740 | people go through trauma in different ways.
00:35:11.740 | A lot of people's trauma doesn't relate to yours at all.
00:35:15.140 | I feel like people react in, like, one of two ways.
00:35:17.740 | Sometimes it draws them kind of, like,
00:35:20.920 | oh, I have to go to God with this, and let him heal me,
00:35:24.660 | or else I'll never be whole again, I'll never feel whole.
00:35:27.460 | And then some people, it's, like,
00:35:29.140 | because such bad things happened to me,
00:35:31.060 | and I see so much bad in the world,
00:35:33.300 | I want nothing to do with God or anything.
00:35:36.700 | How did you kind of react to all this, in terms of that?
00:35:40.300 | - Religion, or God in general?
00:35:43.060 | - Just God in general, I would say.
00:35:44.500 | 'Cause I think, like, people that have been through a lot,
00:35:47.460 | regardless of what it is, they either, like, you know,
00:35:51.460 | lean on God, and that's the only thing
00:35:52.940 | that kind of, like, helps them,
00:35:54.700 | or they want nothing to do with God,
00:35:57.380 | just 'cause they see all the bad in the world.
00:36:00.500 | - That's hard for me.
00:36:02.300 | - I'm sure it is.
00:36:03.300 | - I definitely went through a spell
00:36:05.980 | where I was, like, trying to figure out what I was.
00:36:10.020 | Like, am I, like, a Buddhist?
00:36:12.260 | Am I, I was vegan for so long, I was sober for 10 years.
00:36:15.580 | Like, I was so afraid I was gonna be, like,
00:36:17.340 | my dad, so I didn't touch anything.
00:36:20.100 | And I couldn't find anything that, like,
00:36:22.780 | aligned with how I feel about things.
00:36:26.420 | But I have, like, had moments where I'm curious about it,
00:36:31.740 | or I want to know more, but I haven't actually, like,
00:36:36.060 | since my grandfather passed away,
00:36:37.740 | I don't think I've, like, spoken to God,
00:36:41.020 | or tried to get assistance in that way.
00:36:46.100 | Because, like, my life is very much, like, you,
00:36:49.020 | like, I have to do it.
00:36:50.740 | - Yeah.
00:36:51.580 | - That's just what it is.
00:36:52.420 | People are like, "Oh, you're a great mom.
00:36:53.900 | Like, you don't have to do that."
00:36:55.700 | Yeah, I do, because my son's dad is not there.
00:36:59.380 | Like, they're young men.
00:37:00.580 | I have to, like, try to show them
00:37:02.580 | how to, like, keep it moving,
00:37:04.780 | regardless of what you're going through.
00:37:06.780 | And I don't feel like I can rely
00:37:09.380 | on anyone outside of myself.
00:37:11.860 | So when it comes to God,
00:37:13.540 | it's very hard for me to, like, put my trust
00:37:17.100 | in that source.
00:37:19.220 | - Yeah.
00:37:20.060 | - Because I don't see it or feel it in my life.
00:37:24.540 | - That's understandable.
00:37:26.540 | Do you feel like,
00:37:28.340 | what do you feel like your purpose is
00:37:30.060 | at this point in your life?
00:37:30.900 | Do you feel like your story,
00:37:32.220 | I mean, obviously you've touched so many people.
00:37:34.340 | I mean, all you gotta do is look in the comments
00:37:35.860 | of your interviews and see so many people
00:37:37.820 | that either relate to your story or, you know,
00:37:40.500 | want to help out.
00:37:42.260 | Do you feel like through everything that's bad,
00:37:46.020 | it has shaped your purpose at all now in life, or?
00:37:49.220 | - Yeah, I know what it is.
00:37:50.260 | I know what my purpose is.
00:37:51.860 | It's, like, crazy, 'cause I've figured it out finally.
00:37:55.300 | And it involved going to prison,
00:37:58.380 | which was wild.
00:38:00.580 | So I was the only girl that went.
00:38:02.260 | And I went with a really good friend of mine.
00:38:05.340 | And going into a place that is all men,
00:38:09.620 | who have all done,
00:38:12.020 | I mean, bad things in some capacity, right?
00:38:15.740 | Things that are illegal or haven't,
00:38:17.220 | and they're there, you know, not having to be.
00:38:20.420 | Like, that was so big for me,
00:38:22.980 | and so overwhelming emotionally,
00:38:25.700 | because I wasn't prepared for how I was gonna feel.
00:38:28.980 | Everyone's like, "You're crazy.
00:38:30.140 | "They're gonna, like, be inappropriate.
00:38:31.780 | "They're gonna cross boundaries."
00:38:33.060 | And it was not like that at all.
00:38:34.500 | Like, they were so respectful, and I felt safe.
00:38:38.060 | And we were just out in the open,
00:38:39.740 | like, hanging out, talking, learning about each other.
00:38:41.820 | I even had a pimp come up to me after our last game,
00:38:45.500 | like, the last day.
00:38:47.020 | It was like, "Hey, I'm here for pimping and pandering.
00:38:49.460 | "Like, I just wanted to introduce myself."
00:38:52.340 | And it was great.
00:38:53.180 | It was like a full circle moment for me.
00:38:55.140 | - Yeah.
00:38:55.980 | - So my view on this issue
00:38:59.820 | is, like, very much a, like, societal, systemic issue.
00:39:03.900 | So my pimp, like, I can only assume he grew up in Detroit.
00:39:08.500 | There's no opportunity in the city at that time.
00:39:11.380 | It is desolate, like, despair.
00:39:14.540 | There's not even, like, a target.
00:39:16.580 | You have to go outside the city to get, like, anything.
00:39:20.140 | So imagine just, like, being trapped in a city.
00:39:23.140 | You have no means of, like, getting out
00:39:25.020 | or going to school.
00:39:26.660 | Like, all the schools were closing down.
00:39:28.260 | There's no recreation centers for kids.
00:39:31.420 | So you're growing up with this issue,
00:39:32.780 | and you're seeing men in your communities sell drugs
00:39:35.100 | or pimp or whatever they're doing.
00:39:37.460 | And that's just, like, what you do.
00:39:40.020 | Like, it's a societal thing.
00:39:42.700 | So I don't view him as, like, a bad person,
00:39:46.260 | because I'm, like, he, that's all he knew.
00:39:49.100 | He was surviving.
00:39:51.140 | - I think that takes incredible strength and compassion.
00:39:54.420 | But you are right.
00:39:56.780 | I mean, any, I feel like any community where, you know,
00:40:00.860 | the members of the community get into,
00:40:03.380 | I mean, this is kind of a separate issue.
00:40:05.020 | I feel like, you know, no matter how bad the community is,
00:40:08.700 | there's no really justification for that.
00:40:12.780 | But when it comes to, like, you know,
00:40:14.500 | the violence in communities or selling drugs
00:40:16.700 | or some of these other things, you're right.
00:40:18.660 | It is very systemic.
00:40:21.020 | - It's environmental.
00:40:21.860 | It's, like, what you see.
00:40:23.020 | Like, nurture, nature.
00:40:24.460 | Like, did he have a dad?
00:40:26.780 | Probably not.
00:40:27.700 | - Right.
00:40:28.540 | - Like, there's just so many elements that come into play.
00:40:30.660 | And yes, he was a grown man and continued to do it.
00:40:32.740 | And he should be in prison, absolutely.
00:40:35.340 | I just tried to find the humanity in the situation
00:40:39.460 | and understand the psychology.
00:40:41.020 | Like, why did it happen?
00:40:42.620 | So I'm not like, this person's just evil.
00:40:44.340 | He's just bad.
00:40:45.740 | 'Cause I don't think that he was born,
00:40:47.460 | he wasn't born that way.
00:40:49.460 | - So you would say you in your heart
00:40:50.940 | are fully forgiving this individual?
00:40:52.540 | - Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:40:53.900 | And I would like, I'm hoping to sit with him one day.
00:40:57.460 | Like, go before he gets paroled and sit and talk to him.
00:41:00.500 | That's the goal.
00:41:01.980 | But that's why, also why I went to the prison.
00:41:03.820 | Because these men are like, they're still human.
00:41:08.820 | And I think if more women that were survivors
00:41:12.380 | or people that have survived crime would sit down
00:41:16.180 | and build some sort of human connection with the other side,
00:41:21.180 | like, there could be so much healing that can take place.
00:41:24.260 | You know what I mean?
00:41:25.100 | - Just forgiveness in general.
00:41:26.420 | And people see that and more people
00:41:29.300 | feel the courage to do that.
00:41:30.380 | - Yeah, yeah.
00:41:31.340 | - So that is what you view now as your purpose?
00:41:33.500 | - Yeah. - I think that's huge.
00:41:34.500 | - Yeah, and awareness, definitely.
00:41:37.020 | For teen girls, like, that's my focus.
00:41:40.740 | - How do you think young girls can avoid,
00:41:42.980 | I mean, obviously some people, it just happens.
00:41:46.020 | They can't avoid it.
00:41:46.860 | How would you warn people or kind of like,
00:41:51.180 | how can they avoid it, you think?
00:41:53.420 | - It's hard because I don't put it on the teen girls.
00:41:56.500 | - Of course not.
00:41:57.620 | - I put it on the parents or the guardians.
00:41:59.940 | So I feel like it starts much younger than that.
00:42:04.180 | So if your daughters are like,
00:42:07.180 | you're noticing they're like in their head
00:42:08.780 | or they're depressed or they're in their room all the time
00:42:11.380 | or they're always like on their device,
00:42:12.900 | like talking to God knows who, right?
00:42:16.140 | Like you have to find a way to connect with them
00:42:18.740 | and reach them in a way that's not like authoritative
00:42:22.900 | or you're not like telling them what to do.
00:42:26.500 | Like, it's hard for parents to do that.
00:42:28.740 | But like, if my daughter is throwing a tantrum
00:42:30.860 | and I'm getting like frustrated,
00:42:33.620 | I will just grab her up and hug her
00:42:36.500 | and it immediately diffuses the situation.
00:42:38.740 | Like she's not throwing a tantrum anymore.
00:42:41.240 | It's crazy.
00:42:42.580 | Like, instead of like pushing your kids away
00:42:45.340 | and like telling them to like stop acting that way
00:42:48.140 | or you're grounded, I'm taking this, I'm taking that,
00:42:50.340 | like bring them in and give them affection
00:42:52.700 | and spend time with them and talk to them
00:42:54.780 | and like get to know them on like a human level because--
00:42:57.980 | - I think that's crazy you say that
00:42:59.220 | 'cause even like my childhood,
00:43:01.700 | like my parents like talk about this now,
00:43:05.020 | like with me, like I was the rebel of all the children,
00:43:08.000 | like always getting my phone taken.
00:43:10.900 | I got my phone taken for a year one time.
00:43:13.740 | Like who gets their phone taken for a year?
00:43:16.620 | But like I talked to my parents about it now,
00:43:19.980 | I was like, because you guys didn't let me like do stuff
00:43:24.620 | and instead I was always grounded,
00:43:25.660 | you were taking my phone and this and that,
00:43:26.620 | it just made me want to rebel more.
00:43:28.500 | Like I never like ran away far,
00:43:30.780 | but I mean, Sierra will tell you,
00:43:32.100 | like there was a couple of times I did,
00:43:33.620 | like I was so mad that they were making me do,
00:43:36.940 | and they kind of recognize that now,
00:43:38.660 | but I think like for me and my kids,
00:43:40.640 | I think about how I parent my kids
00:43:42.040 | and it's yeah, it's more exactly what you say.
00:43:44.200 | It's like instead of telling these kids,
00:43:46.940 | no, you can't do this, stay in line, this and that,
00:43:49.460 | all that's gonna do is make them kind of rebel more,
00:43:51.740 | but when you can--
00:43:52.580 | - Also hide things.
00:43:54.180 | - Yeah.
00:43:55.020 | So if you're like taking their,
00:43:56.700 | like I don't take their devices.
00:43:58.420 | If I'm gonna do something,
00:43:59.580 | like my son like backtalking me
00:44:01.460 | or not doing what he's supposed to be doing,
00:44:03.220 | I'll just like shut the internet off.
00:44:05.820 | I'm not gonna like take something
00:44:07.260 | that like I bought him a PC for his 18th birthday,
00:44:09.260 | it was like $2,000 computer.
00:44:11.840 | And I wouldn't take that from him.
00:44:14.540 | Like so many people, like his dad has taken so much from him
00:44:17.140 | like stolen money from him, like birthday money,
00:44:21.060 | and I would never do that.
00:44:22.620 | So I think as a parent,
00:44:23.700 | just like making sure you're aware
00:44:25.500 | of what's going on in your house.
00:44:27.580 | The internet is a dangerous place, straight up.
00:44:30.060 | Social media, crazy.
00:44:32.340 | I'm just monitoring all the time as much as I can
00:44:34.860 | without it being in a way that's like,
00:44:37.740 | I'm gonna watch what you're doing.
00:44:39.460 | It's more like creating an environment
00:44:40.980 | where your kids are comfortable talking to you about things
00:44:43.420 | and not feeling like they're gonna get in trouble
00:44:45.140 | or judged or whatever.
00:44:47.500 | Like if I mess up and I'm like snap at my kids
00:44:50.540 | or I'm my temper's short that day,
00:44:52.540 | and I say something like out of left field
00:44:54.820 | that I shouldn't have said,
00:44:56.180 | I will sit with them and be like,
00:44:57.420 | I'm sorry that I said that.
00:44:59.860 | I'm having a rough day.
00:45:00.820 | I lost control of my emotions and I apologize.
00:45:04.180 | Like I didn't mean that.
00:45:06.340 | So they know like, okay, well, she's taking accountability.
00:45:09.000 | So like, it feels more like a mutual relationship
00:45:13.080 | instead of like you're on top all the time.
00:45:17.100 | - Right. - Yeah.
00:45:19.220 | - Well, I mean, yeah, I feel like obviously
00:45:23.300 | through all the bad, you've come to a place
00:45:25.500 | where like this is, people like you
00:45:27.940 | is what this situation in the world needs
00:45:30.780 | and like people with your bravery and courage
00:45:33.200 | and vulnerability like for this kind of issue.
00:45:37.060 | And I don't know, I mean, obviously we live in a,
00:45:39.980 | this is an evil world and a lot of bad things go on,
00:45:43.120 | but I feel like you sharing your story
00:45:47.900 | is just, it's important.
00:45:49.820 | Like it really is.
00:45:50.760 | And I just, I feel like you individually,
00:45:54.280 | like I really hope God makes himself real to you.
00:45:57.600 | I've never like prayed for anybody on a podcast
00:46:02.580 | and it's not because I would pray for you
00:46:04.380 | because I like feel, I mean, obviously I feel terrible
00:46:07.180 | about what happened to you,
00:46:08.300 | but it's more just all you went through,
00:46:10.700 | like God is gonna use your story
00:46:12.780 | in a way that is like really powerful for a lot of people
00:46:16.580 | that you save a lot of lives.
00:46:18.580 | You give people courage to talk up about their situation.
00:46:22.180 | So I just wanted to ask you if I could pray for you
00:46:24.860 | and then I wanted to invite you to church on Sunday
00:46:27.060 | 'cause you said you haven't been to church for a while.
00:46:28.500 | - I haven't been to church since I was like 12.
00:46:30.900 | - So let's go Sunday.
00:46:32.000 | So yeah, if you're good with that,
00:46:34.580 | I just wanted to end this podcast
00:46:35.700 | just praying for you, if that's cool.
00:46:36.620 | - Yeah, that's totally fine.
00:46:38.180 | - All right.
00:46:39.780 | Dear Lord, thank you for Kat.
00:46:41.420 | I wanna thank you.
00:46:43.260 | Just the woman she is, Lord,
00:46:44.920 | and I just wanna thank you for the healing
00:46:46.380 | that you've brought about in her life
00:46:48.460 | and giving her the vulnerability
00:46:49.900 | and the courage to share her story.
00:46:51.700 | Just thank you for the woman she is.
00:46:55.060 | I ask that you make yourself real to her.
00:46:57.300 | Heal her in ways that she didn't even know was possible.
00:47:01.520 | Show yourself to her, make her whole,
00:47:05.620 | give her complete confidence and wholeness in herself,
00:47:09.060 | and just help her realize that the things
00:47:10.700 | that happened to her are not her fault.
00:47:13.660 | There's no shame, there's no guilt there.
00:47:16.740 | You take that all on yourself,
00:47:18.780 | and just please show her that.
00:47:20.380 | We love you and we appreciate you,
00:47:23.820 | and we thank you that even though terrible things happen
00:47:26.460 | to all of us, that you somehow can turn that
00:47:29.880 | into a beautiful story.
00:47:31.940 | In Jesus' name, amen.
00:47:33.080 | Cool. - Thank you.
00:47:35.700 | - Well, I appreciate you being on this podcast so much.
00:47:39.340 | This was for sure one of my favorite episodes
00:47:41.060 | just because this is just an issue
00:47:43.140 | that I've always been passionate about.
00:47:45.020 | I was always confused why it wasn't kind of brought
00:47:47.240 | to the light a little bit more,
00:47:48.340 | so it means a lot to me that you were willing
00:47:50.740 | to get on here, and I thank you.
00:47:51.580 | - Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:47:53.260 | - Of course.
00:47:54.100 | - Hopefully lots of people see and behave differently.
00:47:58.020 | That's all I can hope for.
00:47:59.300 | - 100%. - Yeah.
00:48:00.580 | (upbeat music)
00:48:03.160 | (upbeat music)