Kat Emrick on Surviving Human Trafficking, Finding Forgiveness, and Conspiracy vs. Reality
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.580 | - Hi, welcome back to another episode of Curious Mike.
00:00:13.360 | I'm here with my friend Kat.
00:00:15.520 | Really excited to have you on.
00:00:16.960 | You know, this topic is something that I believe
00:00:20.320 | needs to be kind of like spoke about more,
00:00:23.200 | brought into the light a little bit more.
00:00:25.600 | So I appreciate your bravery like in everything
00:00:27.700 | and sharing your story and being vulnerable.
00:00:30.680 | So why don't we start like early childhood,
00:00:33.220 | like what was your first memories growing up?
00:00:35.380 | How was your childhood and all that?
00:00:38.020 | - My childhood was kind of spotty.
00:00:39.820 | My memories are a little spotty back then.
00:00:42.580 | My dad wasn't around much.
00:00:44.580 | So I think that's sort of what led me
00:00:47.100 | to what we're going to speak about.
00:00:49.620 | I was super emotional as a kid, very needy for affection.
00:00:54.060 | And my mom had went through like domestic violence situation
00:00:59.020 | while I was growing up.
00:00:59.840 | I was like a baby.
00:01:00.680 | My sister was a little older.
00:01:02.420 | My dad used to like abuse my mom and hit her.
00:01:05.520 | And my mom had a daughter after my older sister.
00:01:10.340 | So my sister, Mary Kay, was a little bit older than me.
00:01:13.860 | My mom was pregnant with me when she passed away,
00:01:16.780 | which made my mom decide to finally leave my dad
00:01:20.140 | because he wasn't like supportive.
00:01:21.780 | And she was dealing with domestic violence.
00:01:24.020 | So after that happened.
00:01:27.460 | - What age were you around this time?
00:01:29.380 | - My mom was pregnant with me.
00:01:31.060 | - Oh, around this time with her?
00:01:31.900 | - When she passed, yeah.
00:01:33.220 | So that's why everyone says I'm super emotional
00:01:36.060 | because my mom was so sad, her whole pregnancy.
00:01:39.320 | But yeah, she passed and my mom left.
00:01:42.560 | And then she was a single mom for a while.
00:01:45.180 | She got remarried a couple of times.
00:01:47.080 | It just, it was a little inconsistent.
00:01:49.300 | We moved a lot.
00:01:50.420 | We didn't stay in one place for a long time.
00:01:52.980 | And she sent me to live with my aunt and uncle
00:01:56.060 | once or twice.
00:01:57.740 | And because they had like a nuclear family,
00:02:00.660 | like a traditional mom, dad.
00:02:02.860 | They were more well off than we were.
00:02:05.620 | So I had experiences there.
00:02:07.220 | And then they told me that I had to go back to my mom's
00:02:10.420 | because my cousin got pregnant at 15.
00:02:13.860 | So I went back to my mom's
00:02:15.380 | and that's kind of where everything started.
00:02:18.500 | - And you went back there around what age?
00:02:20.260 | What age is this?
00:02:21.420 | - 13, 14. - Around 13?
00:02:22.900 | - Yeah. - Gotcha.
00:02:23.900 | - Yeah.
00:02:24.960 | So yeah, I moved back with my mom
00:02:27.240 | and she worked all the time.
00:02:28.700 | She was never home.
00:02:30.140 | So I wasn't getting the emotional support
00:02:32.980 | that I needed at that age.
00:02:34.660 | Like I very much needed guidance
00:02:37.060 | and she didn't have a choice but to work, obviously.
00:02:39.780 | So that's when everything kind of went left.
00:02:43.980 | - So, okay.
00:02:45.220 | So you said you were around 13 or so.
00:02:47.920 | You know, mom's working and you're kind of independent
00:02:51.620 | at a very young age for the most part.
00:02:53.100 | - Yeah.
00:02:54.540 | - So like when was the first time
00:02:57.420 | you got approached by a man inappropriately?
00:03:02.420 | - I was young.
00:03:04.340 | I was like, that was up with my aunt and uncle.
00:03:06.380 | It started happening. - Back in the day.
00:03:07.380 | - Like 11, 12.
00:03:08.700 | - So this is just something that like all of childhood
00:03:11.220 | you were kind of exposed to a little bit.
00:03:12.900 | - Yeah, it was kind of like,
00:03:14.300 | I remember like construction workers
00:03:16.140 | like hitting on me and my friends
00:03:17.500 | when we were like 11.
00:03:18.740 | - Just 'cause you guys were,
00:03:19.900 | had so much freedom. - We were just out.
00:03:20.740 | - We were just out doing your thing.
00:03:21.780 | - Yeah, wearing shorts and like a tank top
00:03:23.620 | in the summertime.
00:03:24.460 | And it was very sexualized from a very young age.
00:03:27.400 | I don't know if it's just where I'm from.
00:03:29.060 | Like, I don't know if it's like small town syndrome
00:03:32.180 | but it was crazy.
00:03:33.660 | So I think, and then not having a dad.
00:03:36.580 | - Right, just for the protection
00:03:38.300 | or brothers for their protection.
00:03:39.940 | - Yeah, like I just wanted acceptance, I think.
00:03:42.900 | - Yeah.
00:03:43.740 | - So I started like running away from home
00:03:45.460 | because my mom wasn't around
00:03:46.920 | and she wouldn't listen to what I needed.
00:03:50.260 | So I started running away,
00:03:51.860 | like first started running away to Southwest Detroit
00:03:54.540 | with like friends that I'd met in school
00:03:57.060 | and skipped school all the time.
00:03:59.820 | And eventually ended up moving from Southwest Detroit
00:04:03.460 | out to the West side.
00:04:04.980 | - With your mom?
00:04:05.980 | - No, just running away.
00:04:08.140 | - Oh wow.
00:04:08.980 | - Like I would just hop on a bus
00:04:10.180 | and go into the city by myself.
00:04:13.660 | - And your mom, is she reaching out?
00:04:15.540 | - She had no idea cause she was at work all the time.
00:04:17.840 | - That's crazy.
00:04:18.680 | Okay, so you're doing that,
00:04:20.320 | you're running away from home and things like that.
00:04:23.160 | So now kind of you're in your teenage years,
00:04:25.000 | get into kind of the whole story about everything.
00:04:28.600 | - Yeah, running away to the West side,
00:04:31.280 | I suck out like a sore thumb.
00:04:33.760 | So I made a friend there,
00:04:36.840 | me and her ended up like becoming friends
00:04:39.440 | and just like hanging out with people in the neighborhood.
00:04:42.760 | I stayed with her and her boyfriend at the time.
00:04:45.400 | And I thought it was just like, I'm free,
00:04:48.420 | like I have what I can do whatever I want.
00:04:50.700 | Like I thought it was cool.
00:04:52.680 | And in the neighborhood,
00:04:54.620 | like I think I started to see like the darkness.
00:04:57.860 | Like we would walk down the street
00:04:59.220 | and like guys would try to holler at us.
00:05:01.140 | And if we like didn't respond positively,
00:05:04.780 | they would squirt you with like pee.
00:05:07.660 | Like they would fill squirt guns with urine and spray you.
00:05:11.940 | - I heard that on one of your podcasts
00:05:13.300 | I was just thinking to myself, where does that happen?
00:05:15.440 | Like I've never, you said Southwest Detroit, right?
00:05:17.720 | - No, this was on the West side.
00:05:18.920 | - West side, like I've never heard of that.
00:05:21.000 | Guys just having water guns with pee.
00:05:23.480 | - Premeditated, I don't know.
00:05:26.040 | They're just trying to cause trouble, I guess.
00:05:28.080 | But yeah, so that was like, okay,
00:05:30.540 | this isn't just like fun and games.
00:05:32.320 | Like it's actually not okay.
00:05:35.480 | And I went to Coney Island to get like chili cheese fries
00:05:39.440 | 'cause they knew me and like, if I couldn't pay,
00:05:41.560 | they would just like hook me up anyway.
00:05:44.080 | And this guy walks in and he introduces himself,
00:05:49.080 | buys my, pays for my food.
00:05:51.760 | And he was like, I have somewhere you can stay.
00:05:54.400 | You can come, you know, it's cool.
00:05:56.440 | Like I'll take care of you.
00:05:57.720 | And I'm like, okay, because I had no idea.
00:06:01.320 | It was like a thing.
00:06:02.520 | I didn't know it existed.
00:06:04.240 | I didn't know like pimps were a thing.
00:06:06.280 | - Random guy walks in the restaurant,
00:06:08.200 | random guy walks in and just pays for your food.
00:06:09.960 | - I had known somebody was looking for me for a while
00:06:12.000 | because like I made friends with the guys
00:06:15.200 | in the neighborhood, but like they weren't really my friends.
00:06:17.560 | They were just like scouting for him, I think.
00:06:20.320 | And they were like, oh, James is looking for you.
00:06:22.040 | Like he's like, you know, next time you come around.
00:06:25.320 | Like, so I think they were just telling him
00:06:27.480 | where I was essentially.
00:06:28.760 | So yeah, he ended up picking me up.
00:06:31.460 | I went to the house with him in Brightmoor and I walk in
00:06:36.000 | and there's like a bunch of girls my age that looks like me.
00:06:39.520 | And I don't know, it was just like, what is going on?
00:06:43.800 | - Was it like, as soon as you walked in there,
00:06:45.560 | where you did your like alarm go off in your head
00:06:47.920 | or were you just kind of like, you had no idea?
00:06:50.520 | - No.
00:06:51.360 | - You're just kind of naive to everything.
00:06:52.200 | - Very naive, unfortunately.
00:06:54.680 | So like the girls were really welcoming and nice
00:06:57.700 | and there was no like warnings.
00:06:59.400 | There was no like bad feeling.
00:07:02.240 | He didn't give me any bad vibes at all.
00:07:05.160 | So I think when that part revealed itself,
00:07:08.760 | I was like shocked because I wasn't expecting it.
00:07:11.800 | Like I thought this person just wanted to help.
00:07:14.840 | But again, I'm naive.
00:07:16.000 | I wasn't raised in like a bad neighborhood.
00:07:18.460 | I wasn't raised around people
00:07:19.580 | that I needed to like figure out.
00:07:22.000 | So things kind of like were cool for a couple of weeks.
00:07:25.840 | He took me shopping, bought me clothes,
00:07:28.360 | like took me to get my tongue pierced.
00:07:30.680 | Like I was doing all these things and I was just like,
00:07:33.680 | oh, this is so fun.
00:07:35.220 | Not realizing like that was a debt I was accruing.
00:07:39.020 | So that, like when I finally like saw him,
00:07:44.180 | like the real him, we were, I was going up,
00:07:47.200 | there's like an attic space.
00:07:48.380 | I was like going up there and he stopped me on the stairs
00:07:51.220 | and pushed me down on my back and was like,
00:07:55.300 | oh, I have to test you out before you start working.
00:07:57.300 | Like you have to pay off all the stuff that I got you.
00:08:00.620 | And I was like, what, what do you mean?
00:08:02.540 | Like I have to pay it back.
00:08:04.180 | Like I'll give it back to you.
00:08:05.580 | Like I didn't realize that's not how it works.
00:08:07.460 | You can't just be like, here, take your clothes back.
00:08:10.380 | I'm gonna go home.
00:08:11.680 | - Yeah.
00:08:12.660 | So that was the first time you saw him switch.
00:08:14.900 | - Like completely switch, yeah.
00:08:17.340 | Different person.
00:08:18.300 | Like the first time I saw in a man's eyes
00:08:21.760 | that he wasn't there.
00:08:23.500 | - Right.
00:08:24.340 | - Like it's like blink.
00:08:26.600 | So it was like, if you're like crying
00:08:28.020 | and you're like begging them to not do
00:08:29.620 | what they're gonna do, like they don't hear you
00:08:32.420 | because they're just.
00:08:33.580 | - And how many months into the situation living with him?
00:08:36.260 | - It was a couple of weeks.
00:08:37.380 | - Okay, so he was nice those couple of weeks
00:08:39.060 | buying you things and then that first situation happens.
00:08:42.700 | - Yep.
00:08:43.540 | And then, yeah, he sexually assaulted me on the stairs
00:08:47.940 | and I didn't fight back.
00:08:50.240 | I was quiet because you're kind of like in shock.
00:08:53.580 | And I found out he had done that to all the girls.
00:08:55.860 | Like all the girls he would rotate.
00:08:58.180 | Later I figured that out.
00:09:00.180 | But like his son was around, he was like three or four.
00:09:03.460 | His baby mama was around.
00:09:05.820 | So she knew what was going on
00:09:07.340 | but nobody warned me or warned anyone.
00:09:10.580 | So it was crazy.
00:09:12.620 | - So these girls are living with you for two weeks
00:09:15.540 | and they never said a word about it.
00:09:17.780 | I wonder, did they feel like they were indebted to him
00:09:21.180 | or were they just scared or what are you thinking?
00:09:23.540 | - Probably scared.
00:09:25.420 | And some of them I think like kind of like accepted
00:09:28.340 | this was their life.
00:09:30.900 | - Just what they had gotten into.
00:09:31.940 | - So they were like making the most of it.
00:09:34.060 | - Right.
00:09:34.900 | - Like we would goof off and like hang out
00:09:36.860 | and drink and smoke and like,
00:09:38.940 | it was just like our new normal, you know?
00:09:42.180 | - And how long did this kind of thing go on
00:09:45.140 | just in the house with him?
00:09:47.220 | - In the house, not long.
00:09:48.980 | - Okay.
00:09:49.820 | - So once he like kind of made that clear,
00:09:53.460 | he would start taking me with him, like out.
00:09:56.900 | So there was him and this other guy with dreads.
00:09:58.800 | I don't remember his name.
00:10:00.220 | But he drove like a Bronco.
00:10:01.580 | I specifically remember the Bronco.
00:10:03.900 | And they would take us like outside of the city.
00:10:06.900 | So we would do like in-calls with like people in suburbs,
00:10:10.980 | like my neighborhood.
00:10:12.400 | We went to like neighborhoods right around my neighborhood
00:10:14.540 | where my mom was.
00:10:16.620 | And they would just send us in the house.
00:10:18.340 | Nobody would be with you.
00:10:19.620 | You'd go in like 13, 14 year old girls.
00:10:22.880 | There'd be a guy there waiting.
00:10:25.180 | And then you would have to do whatever he asked you to do
00:10:28.420 | and then leave.
00:10:30.060 | - So at this point, you guys are 13 and 14 years old.
00:10:32.740 | See, I didn't realize you were that young.
00:10:38.540 | And so at this point, you know what it is
00:10:41.100 | and you're just like living his life.
00:10:43.940 | Was there like, did you come up with any...
00:10:47.140 | So you're going into these houses by yourself.
00:10:49.240 | Are you trying to come up with any plans to escape
00:10:52.980 | or are you just kind of accepting it
00:10:54.520 | or how did that process go for you?
00:10:56.180 | - I think it was, there was one time
00:10:58.180 | me and a girl tried to get away.
00:11:01.680 | There was like a neighbor who was,
00:11:03.580 | I think it was one house down, maybe two.
00:11:06.100 | But she was like an older lady.
00:11:07.500 | And we would always talk to her.
00:11:08.700 | Like she was cool with James.
00:11:10.020 | So I wasn't sure if it was like a safe place to go and talk.
00:11:14.860 | But she was like, yeah, like you guys need to come over here
00:11:17.380 | like four in the morning when everyone's sleeping
00:11:19.640 | and my son will come and pick you up
00:11:22.060 | and take you out of here.
00:11:24.380 | We're like, cool, like we're gonna do it.
00:11:26.820 | So the next morning we get up early,
00:11:29.180 | we're like sneaking out the door to go over there.
00:11:32.180 | And she let us in, she's like smoking crack.
00:11:36.140 | She's like offering us crack.
00:11:37.980 | And then I was like, this is like not,
00:11:40.580 | this is not what I thought it was.
00:11:41.980 | Like, this is not a safe place.
00:11:44.220 | Her son comes and picks us up and takes us to his house.
00:11:47.740 | And then essentially informs us
00:11:49.460 | that we are now going to be working for him.
00:11:53.400 | So it was not like.
00:11:55.000 | - Yeah, so she was on the same thing.
00:11:56.140 | - She was hustling me or hustling us basically
00:11:58.800 | to try to get her son doing what James was doing.
00:12:03.080 | - Okay, so did James ever find out and you guys.
00:12:06.280 | - We ended up going back.
00:12:07.480 | Like we ended up like leaving that guy's house
00:12:09.840 | because he wasn't as organized.
00:12:11.680 | He wasn't organized.
00:12:13.320 | James like had people circling the block all the time.
00:12:15.880 | So if we walked outside, we knew people were watching us.
00:12:19.120 | Like they would just roll by all day, but this guy didn't.
00:12:22.980 | So we just took off and went back.
00:12:25.740 | - Okay, so during this time,
00:12:27.940 | obviously you're not having a lot of communication
00:12:29.820 | like with your mom.
00:12:31.060 | Is she worried or is she at this point,
00:12:33.800 | you had gone away from the house so many times.
00:12:36.880 | - She was looking for me.
00:12:38.340 | - The entire time?
00:12:39.180 | - In the beginning, well, the whole time.
00:12:41.580 | There was a lot that transpired before James.
00:12:44.280 | Like when I was running away,
00:12:46.200 | like I was with this one guy that was in his thirties
00:12:49.020 | and we would like sleep outside in downtown Detroit
00:12:52.000 | in Hart Plaza, like wintertime.
00:12:54.600 | Because I just like, didn't want to be home.
00:12:56.680 | Like I had some sort of thing with my mom.
00:12:59.460 | I don't know what it was.
00:13:00.320 | I'm trying to figure that out in therapy now.
00:13:02.520 | But there were so many instances where I ran away
00:13:05.760 | and was doing like stupid things.
00:13:08.900 | In this situation though, she was looking,
00:13:11.280 | she was telling the police, there were reports made
00:13:14.320 | and they wouldn't do anything.
00:13:15.680 | Like they weren't like, she's a runaway.
00:13:18.280 | She's a runaway.
00:13:19.120 | Like it's not like I was a missing person.
00:13:21.040 | I was running away.
00:13:22.500 | - Right.
00:13:23.340 | - So they weren't taking it very seriously.
00:13:24.880 | But she did end up finding me.
00:13:26.920 | We can get to that, but.
00:13:28.040 | - Right, okay.
00:13:28.880 | So yeah, continue kind of with the story from there.
00:13:31.320 | So this is kind of becoming a thing.
00:13:33.720 | James is taking you out with him
00:13:35.120 | and it's this whole system going on.
00:13:38.240 | So then yeah, go from there.
00:13:39.960 | - We went to, we were doing outcalls at houses
00:13:44.000 | and then we would do hotel stuff as well.
00:13:46.560 | So he would get two hotel rooms.
00:13:48.960 | He would take us all there.
00:13:50.080 | We would all like mob into one room.
00:13:52.320 | And then the other room was used for like clients,
00:13:55.240 | people that came to like see us or whatever.
00:13:58.480 | I was in, I had like a bleeding disorder.
00:14:01.080 | When I was a teenager, I was taking this birth control
00:14:03.180 | and I had an adverse reaction.
00:14:04.700 | So I was like heavily bleeding
00:14:06.960 | and it wouldn't stop for weeks.
00:14:09.080 | Like I was like pale.
00:14:10.900 | And he ended up having me meet this,
00:14:14.680 | it was at the Knight's Inn, I believe,
00:14:16.600 | in Sterling Heights or something.
00:14:19.140 | He had me go in this room and there was this guy in there
00:14:23.720 | and he was a doctor, I found out,
00:14:27.160 | and I had to sleep with him.
00:14:28.880 | And he ended up giving me a prescription
00:14:31.000 | for the birth control I needed to stop the bleeding.
00:14:34.200 | So it was like--
00:14:35.800 | - Yeah, what type of messed up stuff is that?
00:14:37.200 | - Crazy, yeah.
00:14:39.360 | And then downtown Detroit,
00:14:40.440 | I remember the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup that year.
00:14:44.420 | I don't remember what year it was,
00:14:46.000 | but everybody was outside.
00:14:47.920 | Like all these people wearing wings jerseys
00:14:50.200 | and we were in a hotel downtown
00:14:53.120 | and me and this girl, Camille,
00:14:55.120 | and these two guys walk in.
00:14:58.040 | They asked for two girls and they were like my uncle's age.
00:15:03.040 | Like they just reminded me of my family members
00:15:07.480 | and they had wedding rings on and I was just,
00:15:11.460 | I think at that point, you're like nowhere is safe.
00:15:14.640 | You can't trust anybody.
00:15:16.480 | Like if you have a doctor, you have married guys,
00:15:18.960 | you have anybody you could think of.
00:15:21.800 | And I remember leaving some of the houses
00:15:23.520 | and being like that guy was so nice,
00:15:25.540 | but you wouldn't believe what he was doing.
00:15:29.600 | - What he's doing on the side.
00:15:30.440 | - Like low key, yeah.
00:15:31.600 | So the trust issues were,
00:15:34.960 | at that point you're just accepting,
00:15:37.200 | you can't trust anyone at all.
00:15:40.280 | And we were at this Red Roof Inn
00:15:42.080 | and it was a rule you can't leave the room
00:15:44.840 | or talk to anyone.
00:15:46.120 | And in the lobby,
00:15:47.520 | I'm sure he paid the hotel managers off or something.
00:15:50.120 | Like they knew what was going on.
00:15:52.180 | And there was a family down there
00:15:53.360 | and I was talking to the dad.
00:15:54.820 | And I wasn't like telling on him or anything,
00:15:58.800 | but I walked back up in the room
00:16:00.280 | and Camille was in the room and she was like looking at me
00:16:03.400 | and she just kind of like does this,
00:16:05.240 | like letting me know something's up,
00:16:06.660 | but I didn't know what it was.
00:16:08.480 | And I closed the door behind me
00:16:09.640 | and he popped out and like hit me in my face.
00:16:12.640 | Like cold cocked me in my face.
00:16:14.840 | - This is James. - Yeah.
00:16:16.600 | I think he was in like his late 30s or 40s at this time.
00:16:20.760 | And he was like kind of a bigger dude,
00:16:22.200 | probably close to 200 pounds.
00:16:24.340 | And I was not prepared for getting hit in the face.
00:16:28.280 | But that was the first time he like physically like hit me.
00:16:31.940 | But he did it to the other girls all the time.
00:16:34.120 | Like you would just see it.
00:16:36.040 | - And it's not like this guy was bipolar.
00:16:38.920 | Like sometimes he was nice.
00:16:40.560 | Sometimes when he flipped a switch on the stairs
00:16:43.340 | that one day he never went back to like being.
00:16:45.520 | - No, he did.
00:16:46.480 | - He did it back and forth.
00:16:47.760 | - It was like, he's nice unless he's not.
00:16:50.320 | Like unless there's something that's triggering him
00:16:54.840 | or he wants you to know he's serious, like it would shift.
00:16:59.320 | So you would always try to like be good.
00:17:02.120 | So you didn't have to see that
00:17:03.760 | because it was like terrifying.
00:17:06.120 | So you had to just be like obedient and do what he asked.
00:17:12.800 | - And his son was always with him.
00:17:14.160 | And I remember from a very young age,
00:17:15.760 | always like thinking about his son.
00:17:19.120 | So it'd be like, I can't say anything.
00:17:20.720 | I can't do anything.
00:17:21.560 | I can't act crazy or be like disobedient in front of his kid
00:17:25.920 | because then his kid would see him hitting a woman.
00:17:29.400 | And then his kid is gonna grow up and do the same thing.
00:17:32.040 | - I think it's very admirable
00:17:33.060 | that that was your thoughts during that time.
00:17:35.240 | You know what I mean?
00:17:36.080 | Like actually thinking about this guy's kid
00:17:37.600 | instead of, you know, throwing a tantrum and.
00:17:40.840 | - There's no, yeah, there's no point in doing that.
00:17:43.560 | - Okay, so that incident happened
00:17:46.080 | then did this become like a regular thing
00:17:48.080 | or what went on from there?
00:17:50.840 | - What do you mean like going?
00:17:51.920 | - From him hitting you.
00:17:53.380 | - No, I don't remember him hitting me again after that
00:17:57.120 | because there was no reason to.
00:17:59.360 | It was just quiet.
00:18:00.360 | - It was quiet the entire time.
00:18:01.440 | - Didn't do anything, yeah.
00:18:02.680 | And I was staying at his, we were back at the house.
00:18:06.840 | I remember going out, I was with some guy.
00:18:09.000 | He was dropping me off.
00:18:10.480 | We had just like did stuff.
00:18:13.760 | And my mom, like I didn't realize it was my mom,
00:18:17.120 | but we pulled up on this like side street
00:18:20.000 | and I see a blue Sunfire parked
00:18:22.340 | and the interior light is on.
00:18:24.800 | And I see like a white lady and I was like, that's weird.
00:18:28.720 | And then I was like, that's my mom.
00:18:31.040 | So as soon as I saw her and she saw me,
00:18:34.360 | she like locked in and like turned her mom voice on.
00:18:38.080 | It was like, Catherine Michelle, get in this car right now.
00:18:41.280 | So I got in the car and told her what,
00:18:44.440 | I didn't tell her what happened.
00:18:46.600 | I didn't tell her actually until I was like in my late 20s,
00:18:49.640 | like the--
00:18:51.240 | - The extent of everything.
00:18:52.080 | - The extent of it.
00:18:53.400 | And she, anyway, she took me to the police station
00:18:56.560 | down the street and the cops were just very like dismissive
00:19:00.340 | and were like, well, you probably should just
00:19:02.800 | like leave it alone.
00:19:03.800 | Like you don't know who he is.
00:19:05.640 | It's not safe.
00:19:07.240 | My mom's like, there's a house full of girls
00:19:09.160 | underage over there.
00:19:10.120 | Like my daughter is telling you this
00:19:11.700 | and you're not doing anything.
00:19:12.880 | They're like, well, it's not that simple.
00:19:15.240 | And it was just not, I just wanted to go home.
00:19:18.800 | - So that's one question I have for you.
00:19:20.640 | So why do you think that like law enforcement
00:19:25.320 | and everything is so dismissive of the,
00:19:27.480 | and one of the reasons I wanted you to get on this podcast
00:19:29.680 | is 'cause I feel like this issue is so under talked about.
00:19:32.840 | And I remember looking it up on Google or something,
00:19:36.080 | the amount of times this happens to kids underage,
00:19:40.160 | but you know, people in general is like crazy,
00:19:43.640 | but it's not a mainstream talked about thing.
00:19:46.240 | And I feel like even, you know, you go to law enforcement,
00:19:49.160 | you tell them what's going on and they don't act on it.
00:19:51.600 | Have you thought about why you think that is?
00:19:54.440 | - I don't know.
00:19:55.280 | I honestly, I'm sure it's like hard to develop a case,
00:19:59.540 | but the fact that he just got arrested and put in prison,
00:20:03.560 | I don't want to say for sure.
00:20:05.540 | I think it was like 2012 ish or 13, maybe.
00:20:09.960 | I'll have to look it up,
00:20:10.800 | but he was locked up and he's still in prison.
00:20:12.680 | He's eligible for parole in 2028.
00:20:15.160 | But between the time this happened to me and that time,
00:20:18.580 | like how many girls did he affect?
00:20:21.920 | Like because the cops were dragging their feet
00:20:24.160 | or like, oh, we're building a case for how many years?
00:20:26.720 | Like how many girls are sacrificed
00:20:28.320 | so that you can get a case?
00:20:29.480 | Like, come on.
00:20:30.840 | It just doesn't make sense.
00:20:32.040 | - It doesn't make sense at all.
00:20:33.000 | And the runaway aspect,
00:20:34.400 | like the human trafficking stuff
00:20:36.720 | is so focused on the very extreme cases,
00:20:41.540 | like three-year-olds, four-year-olds,
00:20:43.560 | like being trafficked across countries and like all that,
00:20:47.000 | which is a huge issue, don't get me wrong.
00:20:49.460 | But domestically, like the teenage girls
00:20:52.200 | that are running away, that are at risk
00:20:55.320 | because they're rebelling or they don't have a dad
00:20:57.600 | or their parents are on drugs or whatever,
00:21:00.080 | but they just need a little bit more attention emotionally
00:21:02.640 | from their parents.
00:21:04.380 | They're being trafficked and nobody's talking about it
00:21:07.400 | because if they get picked up on the street,
00:21:09.520 | they get arrested and booked for prostitution.
00:21:11.840 | - Right.
00:21:12.680 | - And they're 14 and 15.
00:21:13.820 | So it's just crazy to me.
00:21:17.800 | - It's unbelievable.
00:21:19.200 | So your mom sees you, she has you get in the car.
00:21:23.440 | Did this guy come back after you at all
00:21:26.000 | or did he just leave it completely alone once your mom got you?
00:21:30.000 | - Left it alone and I like dealt with like guilt
00:21:33.800 | because I left girls behind.
00:21:35.500 | - Yeah.
00:21:36.720 | - Like, I don't know what happened to them.
00:21:38.000 | I don't know where they are.
00:21:39.380 | Like he had another house where he kept older women
00:21:42.680 | that I don't know, I never met any of them.
00:21:45.080 | I just remember pulling up there,
00:21:46.520 | he would run drugs in and come back out and we would leave.
00:21:50.600 | - Okay.
00:21:51.440 | - But everyone, like it's hearsay,
00:21:52.480 | but everyone was like, that's where he keeps the girls
00:21:54.920 | that like were no longer teenagers.
00:21:57.600 | They're addicted to substances
00:21:59.080 | because that's how he would get girls to like stay.
00:22:02.120 | Essentially, they would rely on him for drugs.
00:22:05.040 | And then he just kind of hid them away.
00:22:07.000 | And I think those women were working like the street
00:22:10.400 | where we were doing like private in-calls.
00:22:13.040 | - Private, yeah, that makes sense.
00:22:15.680 | So how many years after you get out of this situation
00:22:20.400 | is he finally, they build a case and they arrest him?
00:22:23.240 | - Year, like so long, like over a decade.
00:22:26.240 | - And what did they get him for?
00:22:28.000 | 'Cause you just said he's out for parole, 2028.
00:22:30.480 | - 2028 he's out for parole.
00:22:33.000 | It was like prostitution solicitate,
00:22:36.720 | like all the, everything he got in trouble for
00:22:40.480 | was for like prostitution related crimes.
00:22:44.080 | - And that's a...
00:22:45.400 | - Like I have all of his court transcripts
00:22:47.120 | that I'm sifting through right now, but that's it.
00:22:49.880 | There was no rape on there, which really bothered me.
00:22:53.480 | - Right.
00:22:54.320 | - 'Cause I had reached out to a detective in Southfield
00:22:56.000 | 'cause that's where he got caught up.
00:22:58.280 | And I was like, "Hey, I had interactions with this man.
00:23:00.680 | He raped me when I was a young teen.
00:23:03.240 | What is the statute of limitations?"
00:23:05.540 | And she was very, it's like,
00:23:07.480 | almost like they don't wanna deal with it
00:23:09.280 | 'cause it's so much paperwork.
00:23:11.520 | She's like, "Well, you need to write down
00:23:12.860 | every single thing that happened
00:23:14.000 | the whole time you were with him and send it to me."
00:23:16.360 | And I wasn't like at a place in my healing journey
00:23:19.320 | where I could sit down and write everything down
00:23:22.000 | step-by-step, like that's a lot, it takes a lot.
00:23:24.360 | I'd rather talk about it, but that's not really an option.
00:23:27.300 | - So all this happens, you go back with your mom
00:23:32.600 | and you said you didn't really tell her
00:23:33.680 | the extent of things.
00:23:34.680 | Like what was your life like for those next,
00:23:38.080 | like how did you move on from this?
00:23:40.040 | Was there, like what happened after this?
00:23:43.240 | - I pretended it didn't happen.
00:23:46.000 | - Really, and you're what age at the time?
00:23:48.320 | - I was like 15, 16, well, I met my son's dad
00:23:53.720 | when I was 16.
00:23:54.640 | So when I came back with my mom,
00:23:56.260 | she sent me to alternative education,
00:23:58.480 | like an adult education with all the bad kids.
00:24:02.720 | So I met this girl there and we used to go
00:24:05.440 | to River Rouge all the time,
00:24:06.680 | which is like on South of Detroit.
00:24:09.000 | And I met her cousin, he was 24, I was 16.
00:24:14.000 | And I got pregnant like a month
00:24:17.240 | or two months after we met.
00:24:18.720 | - Is this guy a good dude?
00:24:21.180 | - No.
00:24:23.300 | I raise my kids by myself, he's not involved.
00:24:26.280 | - Really?
00:24:27.120 | - But yeah, he was like a good dad for a while.
00:24:30.480 | And then I left because he was emotionally abusive.
00:24:34.560 | So I left once I like grew up
00:24:36.680 | and like realized this is not okay.
00:24:39.020 | And after that, he is not involved.
00:24:43.280 | He pays $46 a week in child support.
00:24:46.200 | - This dude does?
00:24:47.920 | - For two kids, yeah.
00:24:50.060 | - Well, you are a warrior.
00:24:52.680 | Yeah, I wanna like bring some attention to this
00:24:56.940 | because so I'm sure all these things that come out
00:25:00.060 | like the "Sound of Freedom" movie and all these things,
00:25:02.940 | I'm sure they hit a little different
00:25:04.860 | for you being kind of like in that situation.
00:25:08.120 | The other day I was on a Zoom call
00:25:10.060 | with Child Rescue Coalition.
00:25:13.300 | I don't know if you know what that is.
00:25:14.580 | They're a nonprofit for,
00:25:16.300 | but they were walking me through
00:25:17.540 | how they developed a software to like figure out these guys
00:25:21.360 | who are creating material and they're able to track them.
00:25:25.760 | They give all this information to law enforcement.
00:25:27.840 | All law enforcement has to do is go
00:25:30.280 | and look at these cases.
00:25:31.940 | Look at the, and they can,
00:25:35.360 | all they gotta do is call the Comcast or whoever it is
00:25:38.240 | and get the physical address.
00:25:39.600 | But they, so many cases are left like on--
00:25:42.880 | - They don't even follow through on it.
00:25:44.000 | - They don't even like--
00:25:44.840 | - It's so frustrating.
00:25:45.660 | - To believe like how much this issue is like ignored.
00:25:49.920 | Like it's one of the most prevalent like crimes
00:25:53.400 | that is not really talked about.
00:25:55.080 | And I was asking them the same question,
00:25:57.440 | like why do you think it's not more mainstream?
00:26:00.760 | Why do you think when "Sound of Freedom" comes out,
00:26:02.580 | some of the mainstream media outlets
00:26:04.920 | are kind of like pushing back on this movie?
00:26:07.960 | I just couldn't wrap my head around it.
00:26:10.360 | Do you have like any thoughts on why you think that is?
00:26:14.240 | - I haven't seen "Sound of Freedom."
00:26:17.120 | I just spoke about this actually last week.
00:26:19.120 | I did a podcast with this man I met in prison
00:26:22.520 | doing a basketball program.
00:26:23.760 | We went to prison and between the lines
00:26:26.160 | and played basketball with the inmates.
00:26:28.720 | And he has a podcast and we spoke about "Sound of Freedom"
00:26:32.320 | and how there are certain undertones in the movie.
00:26:37.320 | Think that for me, these movies are great for awareness,
00:26:42.320 | but it very much like makes me feel
00:26:44.880 | like a wayfair type of situation.
00:26:47.160 | I don't know if you remember that like media storm
00:26:49.840 | where they were like, "They're shipping kids in cabinets."
00:26:53.260 | It was crazy.
00:26:54.740 | - Do you not believe in that or do you think that happened?
00:26:57.400 | - No, I'm so, I just feel like it was such a conspiracy.
00:27:01.640 | - So the conspiracy side of all this,
00:27:03.400 | you know, these rich white dudes that are, you know,
00:27:08.080 | getting these kids and doing this crazy stuff,
00:27:09.960 | you don't really believe in that side of it?
00:27:12.120 | - I do 'cause there were rich white dudes buying me, so yeah.
00:27:16.800 | I mean, that's another huge problem.
00:27:18.800 | Why aren't the men who are purchasing children,
00:27:22.520 | why aren't they going to prison?
00:27:24.760 | - Yeah.
00:27:25.600 | - Why is my pimp in prison for all those years?
00:27:30.600 | I mean, he deserves it.
00:27:32.440 | But all the men that purchased me
00:27:34.760 | and the girls that were with me, like, where are they at?
00:27:37.720 | They're just out like living their life.
00:27:39.800 | It's a supply and demand situation, so.
00:27:42.920 | - They may have a whole family, whole kids.
00:27:45.280 | - They have no idea.
00:27:46.120 | - And they have no idea
00:27:47.200 | that these guys are going to hotels.
00:27:49.080 | - Yeah.
00:27:49.920 | - Did you ever, in your mind, like,
00:27:52.600 | want to expose these individuals that you met
00:27:56.760 | or was there no--
00:27:57.600 | - If I knew who they were, I would put them on blast.
00:28:00.220 | If they have daughters and their daughters have sleepovers,
00:28:04.480 | like, these are the things I think about.
00:28:06.720 | So you are married, I always pay attention
00:28:09.640 | to like rings or if they're putting something
00:28:12.000 | in their pocket when they come in.
00:28:14.040 | It's their ring, usually.
00:28:16.280 | And I'm like, I'm not stupid.
00:28:17.800 | Like, you start to like learn game really quickly
00:28:21.400 | 'cause you have to.
00:28:22.840 | And I would just think about that.
00:28:24.040 | Like, if you have a daughter at home
00:28:26.000 | or if you have a son or whatever,
00:28:27.880 | like, what are you doing at home?
00:28:30.880 | Does your wife know what's going on?
00:28:32.400 | Or you're not using protection
00:28:35.040 | with the children you're sleeping with
00:28:36.480 | and neither are 15 other men who are doing the same thing.
00:28:39.680 | And then you're taking those things back to your family.
00:28:42.920 | It's just crazy to me.
00:28:44.840 | - It's really hard to talk about, honestly,
00:28:49.280 | just because it can happen to so many people.
00:28:52.160 | So many people don't grow up in a stable household
00:28:54.440 | and I feel like those are the kind of the environments
00:28:57.800 | that it can happen.
00:28:58.640 | But even like, you know, I've heard so many stories
00:29:01.160 | about even like kids at a park or something
00:29:06.720 | and their parent turns their head for a second
00:29:09.080 | and it just, I just don't understand
00:29:13.600 | why it's not like pushed more of it as an issue.
00:29:18.600 | That's the thing that I kind of like,
00:29:22.920 | when we had the opportunity to speak about,
00:29:24.520 | that was the thing that I kind of wanted to get across
00:29:27.840 | is like, this is like a mainstream issue
00:29:31.000 | but it's getting pushed to the back burner.
00:29:32.320 | And that's why I think like the conspiracy side of it,
00:29:35.200 | like why, is it the same people in power you think
00:29:37.680 | that are doing it?
00:29:39.120 | Or what do you think the police officers kind of like knew
00:29:42.120 | who this guy was and they just kind of were involved?
00:29:44.840 | - They knew who he was 'cause they warned my mom.
00:29:47.000 | But I don't know like how, as far as like,
00:29:52.000 | I think about like Jeffrey Epstein or whatever.
00:29:56.800 | - I was gonna ask you about that.
00:29:57.640 | - And like the documentaries about him
00:30:00.000 | and how, and the woman that was with him,
00:30:03.460 | how all of it is so focused on them
00:30:06.320 | and not what the damage they did has done
00:30:11.660 | to the people that were affected.
00:30:14.720 | So we have to like live with it forever.
00:30:17.040 | I have to get therapy.
00:30:18.520 | I have to figure out how to make my life work as a mom
00:30:21.460 | and business owner and how I interact with the public.
00:30:24.520 | You know, for years I couldn't go outside by myself
00:30:26.720 | at night, like I would have full on panic attack.
00:30:29.440 | If a man was anywhere behind me,
00:30:32.160 | like full on fight or flight, like I'd be shaking.
00:30:35.280 | - Yeah.
00:30:36.120 | - And it's taken so long to get past it
00:30:40.040 | and it's not really fair.
00:30:42.120 | - It's not, it's not fair at all.
00:30:43.640 | I mean, I think that part of the putting this kind of
00:30:47.480 | at least stopping it a little bit is kind of going after
00:30:50.720 | these guys who just think that because they have money
00:30:53.840 | or because they can do these things to these children,
00:30:57.800 | women in general, but obviously like it's so many people
00:31:01.640 | that are affected by it, even like there's so many people
00:31:04.000 | that don't talk about it 'til they're way older,
00:31:07.040 | but like it may have happened by an uncle
00:31:10.320 | or someone else when they're young.
00:31:12.920 | How have you been able to find like any sort of healing
00:31:16.840 | like from this?
00:31:18.480 | - Well, the interview last year was a big step for me.
00:31:22.200 | I didn't talk about that side of things ever.
00:31:25.900 | So there's like, well, I'm a single mom,
00:31:28.780 | obviously like starting to date and like carrying the weight
00:31:32.800 | of what I did as a teenager is hard because like,
00:31:36.520 | regardless of if it's my fault or not,
00:31:38.280 | or if it was consensual or not,
00:31:40.320 | I was like, I have like bodies like at 36,
00:31:44.680 | like between the age of like 13 and 15,
00:31:47.680 | like there were a lot of people like sexually.
00:31:52.120 | So I think the shame tied in with that,
00:31:54.620 | I didn't want to talk about, I didn't tell my mom,
00:31:56.900 | like I didn't want her to think about me
00:31:59.020 | as like being promiscuous or being a prostitute essentially.
00:32:04.020 | Like I don't want to be put into that category,
00:32:08.320 | not that there's anything wrong with it.
00:32:09.800 | People that consensually do it
00:32:11.100 | and want to do it on their own, that's their own thing.
00:32:13.520 | But when you're a kid,
00:32:15.780 | I don't think it fits in the same category.
00:32:17.960 | You're not working, it's not your job.
00:32:21.440 | So I think in dating and like trying to build my confidence
00:32:26.200 | and like feel empowered when I'm interacting with men,
00:32:30.180 | I kind of had to just be like, this is like me,
00:32:33.060 | this is what happened.
00:32:34.660 | This is my history, it's part of who I am.
00:32:36.460 | It's why I do a lot of things I do.
00:32:38.820 | So it's important that people know that.
00:32:41.740 | And yeah, I don't, that's just, it took a long time.
00:32:45.680 | And when my mom finally saw the interview,
00:32:47.240 | she like lost her mind.
00:32:50.900 | - Yeah, I'm sure.
00:32:51.740 | - She was like, I had no idea.
00:32:53.060 | And I'm just like, I didn't want you to think
00:32:54.320 | I was like dirty.
00:32:56.160 | - How did she react to that interview?
00:32:58.840 | - She was hurt.
00:33:00.000 | - Just, I'm sure she felt like, yeah.
00:33:04.080 | - People came for her.
00:33:05.400 | - Yeah, I'm sure she felt guilty about things as well.
00:33:10.240 | - But I ran it, like I don't blame her.
00:33:12.360 | She did the best she could with what she had.
00:33:14.200 | She was severely abused, lost a child,
00:33:16.680 | never went to therapy.
00:33:18.080 | Wasn't, I feel like our parents' generation,
00:33:22.160 | they aren't as in touch with that.
00:33:24.120 | It's more of like a forget it and move on.
00:33:27.320 | Don't live in the past kind of thing.
00:33:29.560 | When you don't realize your past is always with you.
00:33:32.120 | It like affects everything that you do.
00:33:34.340 | - Right.
00:33:35.400 | So there's a such thing as called like generational
00:33:37.880 | kind of like curses or generational traumas
00:33:41.260 | where maybe the parent of a child is doing something,
00:33:45.840 | but the child sees it and then they grow up
00:33:47.560 | and the same thing happens to them
00:33:48.680 | or they do the same thing.
00:33:52.480 | - Like obviously, you know, speaking about a healing
00:33:54.840 | from it and things like that, you've broken that.
00:33:57.840 | But was that, do you think because of how your father
00:34:01.600 | treated your mom that in turn like affected you to,
00:34:06.600 | do you think, how do you think that all went together?
00:34:09.420 | - Yeah, I still deal with dad stuff.
00:34:11.880 | So I'm not really great at relationships.
00:34:16.880 | I'm just like always waiting for the person to bail
00:34:20.400 | at any given moment.
00:34:22.080 | I'm never like comfortable and content.
00:34:24.360 | I'm always on the edge of my seat
00:34:26.440 | waiting for the shoe to drop.
00:34:28.400 | They'll be like, "Oh, I like you so much."
00:34:30.040 | And I'm like, "Just wait until you see like the trauma stuff
00:34:34.280 | or I talk about that."
00:34:35.440 | Like, and then they can't handle it and they dip.
00:34:38.280 | And then I'm like, "Oh, I was right."
00:34:39.600 | Like they left.
00:34:40.740 | So it's almost like this cycle of, I do self-sabotage.
00:34:45.340 | I've had like good relationships that I just,
00:34:48.420 | it's almost like you don't know how to act
00:34:50.840 | when somebody is like genuinely into you or being nice
00:34:54.200 | or treating you nicely.
00:34:56.600 | It's kind of like, why are you being nice to me?
00:34:58.960 | Because like James did that and look what happens.
00:35:02.800 | So I'm just like, what's the motive?
00:35:05.480 | - Has any of this, 'cause I know like people go
00:35:10.200 | through trauma in different ways.
00:35:11.760 | A lot of people's trauma doesn't relate to yours at all.
00:35:15.160 | I feel like people react in like one of two ways.
00:35:17.720 | Sometimes it draws them kind of like,
00:35:20.840 | "Oh, I have to go to God with this and let him heal me
00:35:24.640 | or else I'll never be whole again.
00:35:26.120 | I'll never feel whole."
00:35:27.440 | And then some people it's like,
00:35:29.060 | "Because such bad things happened to me
00:35:31.040 | and I see so much bad in the world.
00:35:33.280 | I want nothing to do with God or anything."
00:35:36.680 | How did you kind of react to all this in terms of that?
00:35:40.280 | - Religion or God in general?
00:35:43.040 | - Just God in general, I would say.
00:35:44.480 | 'Cause I think like people that have been through a lot,
00:35:47.440 | regardless of what it is,
00:35:49.360 | they either like lean on God
00:35:52.360 | and that's the only thing that kind of like helps them
00:35:54.680 | or they want nothing to do with God
00:35:57.360 | just 'cause they see all the bad in the world.
00:36:00.480 | - That's hard for me.
00:36:02.300 | - I'm sure it is.
00:36:03.280 | - I definitely went through a spell
00:36:05.960 | where I was like trying to figure out what I was.
00:36:10.000 | Like, am I like a Buddhist?
00:36:12.240 | Am I, I was vegan for so long.
00:36:13.840 | I was sober for 10 years.
00:36:15.560 | Like, I was so afraid I was gonna be like my dad
00:36:17.760 | so I didn't touch anything.
00:36:20.080 | And I couldn't find anything that like aligned
00:36:23.560 | with how I feel about things.
00:36:26.440 | But I have like had moments where I'm curious about it
00:36:31.760 | or I want to know more.
00:36:33.160 | But I haven't actually, like,
00:36:36.040 | since my grandfather passed away,
00:36:37.720 | I don't think I've like spoken to God
00:36:41.020 | or tried to get assistance in that way.
00:36:46.020 | Because like my life is very much like you,
00:36:49.020 | like I have to do it.
00:36:51.180 | That's just what it is.
00:36:52.260 | People are like, oh, you're a great mom.
00:36:53.900 | Like, you don't have to do that.
00:36:55.700 | Yeah, I do because my son's dad is not there.
00:36:59.380 | Like they're young men.
00:37:00.580 | I have to like try to show them
00:37:02.580 | how to like keep it moving
00:37:04.780 | regardless of what you're going through.
00:37:06.780 | And I don't feel like I can rely on anyone
00:37:10.020 | outside of myself.
00:37:11.860 | So when it comes to God,
00:37:13.540 | it's very hard for me to like put my trust in that source
00:37:18.540 | because I don't see it or feel it in my life.
00:37:24.580 | - That's understandable.
00:37:26.580 | Do you feel like,
00:37:28.380 | what do you feel like your purpose is
00:37:30.100 | at this point in your life?
00:37:30.940 | Do you feel like your story,
00:37:32.260 | I mean, obviously you've touched so many people.
00:37:34.380 | I mean, all you gotta do is look in the comments
00:37:35.880 | of your interviews and see so many people
00:37:37.860 | that either relate to your story or, you know,
00:37:40.540 | want to help out.
00:37:42.320 | Do you feel like through everything that's bad,
00:37:46.100 | it has shaped your purpose at all now in life or?
00:37:49.300 | - Yeah, I know what it is.
00:37:50.340 | I know what my purpose is.
00:37:51.940 | It's like crazy 'cause I've figured it out finally.
00:37:55.380 | And it involved going to prison, which was wild.
00:38:00.380 | So I was the only girl that went
00:38:02.260 | and I went with a really good friend of mine.
00:38:05.420 | And going into a place that is all men
00:38:09.620 | who have all done, I mean,
00:38:13.220 | bad things in some capacity, right?
00:38:15.800 | Things that are illegal or haven't
00:38:17.300 | and they're there, you know, not having to be.
00:38:20.500 | Like that was so big for me and so overwhelming emotionally
00:38:25.500 | because I wasn't prepared for how I was gonna feel.
00:38:29.060 | Everyone's like, you're crazy.
00:38:30.300 | They're gonna like be inappropriate.
00:38:31.940 | They're gonna cross boundaries.
00:38:33.140 | And it was not like that at all.
00:38:34.580 | Like they were so respectful and I felt safe.
00:38:38.120 | And we were just out in the open,
00:38:39.820 | like hanging out, talking, learning about each other.
00:38:41.900 | I even had a pimp come up to me after our last game,
00:38:45.540 | like the last day.
00:38:47.060 | It was like, hey, I'm here for pimping and pandering.
00:38:49.580 | Like I just wanted to introduce myself.
00:38:52.380 | And it was great.
00:38:53.260 | It was like a full circle moment for me.
00:38:56.020 | So my view on this issue is like very much
00:39:00.860 | a like societal systemic issue.
00:39:03.940 | So my pimp, like I can only assume he grew up in Detroit.
00:39:08.540 | There's no opportunity in the city at that time.
00:39:11.420 | It is desolate, like despair.
00:39:14.560 | There's not even like a target.
00:39:16.620 | You have to go outside the city to get like anything.
00:39:19.260 | So imagine just like being trapped in a city.
00:39:23.180 | You have no means of like getting out
00:39:25.060 | or going to school.
00:39:26.700 | Like all the schools were closing down.
00:39:28.280 | There's no recreation centers for kids.
00:39:31.440 | So you're growing up with this issue
00:39:32.820 | and you're seeing men in your community sell drugs
00:39:35.140 | or pimp or whatever they're doing.
00:39:37.500 | And that's just like what you do.
00:39:40.060 | Like it's a societal thing.
00:39:42.740 | So I don't view him as like a bad person
00:39:46.300 | because I'm like he, that's all he knew.
00:39:49.140 | He was surviving.
00:39:51.180 | - I think that takes incredible strength and compassion,
00:39:54.480 | but you are right.
00:39:56.820 | I mean, any, I feel like any community where, you know,
00:40:00.900 | the members of the community get into,
00:40:03.420 | I mean, this is kind of a separate issue.
00:40:05.060 | I feel like, you know, no matter how bad the community is,
00:40:08.740 | there's no really justification for that.
00:40:12.620 | But when it comes to like, you know,
00:40:14.540 | the violence in communities or selling drugs
00:40:16.760 | or some of these other things, you're right.
00:40:18.700 | It is very systemic.
00:40:21.100 | - It's environmental.
00:40:21.940 | It's like what you see, like nurture, nature.
00:40:24.500 | Like did you, did he have a dad?
00:40:26.820 | Probably not.
00:40:28.300 | Like there's just so many elements that come into play.
00:40:30.700 | And yes, he was a grown man and continued to do it.
00:40:32.780 | And he should be in prison, absolutely.
00:40:35.380 | I just tried to find the humanity in the situation
00:40:39.500 | and understand the psychology.
00:40:41.060 | Like, why did it happen?
00:40:42.660 | So I'm not like, this person's just evil.
00:40:44.380 | He's just bad.
00:40:45.780 | 'Cause I don't think that he was born,
00:40:47.500 | he wasn't born that way.
00:40:49.500 | - So you would say you in your heart
00:40:50.940 | are fully forgiving this individual?
00:40:52.540 | - Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:40:53.940 | And I would like, I'm hoping to sit with him one day,
00:40:57.500 | like go before he gets paroled and sit and talk to him.
00:41:00.540 | That's the goal.
00:41:01.980 | But that's also why I went to the prison
00:41:03.820 | because like these men are like, they're still human.
00:41:08.820 | And I think if more women that were survivors
00:41:12.380 | or people that have survived crime would like sit down
00:41:16.180 | and like build like some sort of human connection
00:41:20.100 | with the other side, like there could be so much healing
00:41:22.820 | that can take place.
00:41:24.260 | You know what I mean?
00:41:25.100 | - And just forgiveness in general and people see that
00:41:28.380 | and more people feel the courage to do that.
00:41:30.340 | - Yeah, yeah.
00:41:31.340 | - So that is what you view now as your purpose.
00:41:33.500 | - Yeah. - I think that's huge.
00:41:34.500 | - Yeah, and awareness, definitely.
00:41:37.020 | For teen girls, like that's my focus.
00:41:40.740 | - How do you think young girls can avoid?
00:41:42.940 | I mean, obviously some people, it just happens.
00:41:46.020 | They can't avoid it.
00:41:46.860 | How would you warn people or kind of like,
00:41:51.180 | how can they avoid it, you think?
00:41:53.420 | - It's hard because I don't put it on the teen girls.
00:41:56.500 | - Of course not.
00:41:57.620 | - I put it on the parents or the guardians.
00:41:59.940 | So I feel like it starts like much younger than that.
00:42:04.140 | So if your daughters are like,
00:42:07.180 | you're noticing they're like in their head
00:42:08.740 | or they're depressed or they're in their room all the time
00:42:11.380 | or they're always like on their device,
00:42:12.900 | like talking to God knows who, right?
00:42:16.140 | Like you have to find a way to connect with them
00:42:18.700 | and reach them in a way that's not like authoritative
00:42:22.860 | or you're not like telling them what to do.
00:42:26.460 | Like, it's hard for parents to do that.
00:42:28.700 | But like, if my daughter is throwing a tantrum
00:42:30.820 | and I'm getting like frustrated,
00:42:33.580 | I will just grab her up and hug her
00:42:36.460 | and it immediately diffuses the situation.
00:42:38.700 | Like she's not throwing a tantrum anymore.
00:42:41.220 | It's crazy.
00:42:42.540 | Like, instead of like pushing your kids away
00:42:45.300 | and like telling them to like stop acting that way
00:42:48.100 | or you're grounded, I'm taking this, I'm taking that,
00:42:50.300 | like bring them in and give them affection
00:42:52.660 | and spend time with them and talk to them
00:42:54.740 | and like get to know them on like a human level because--
00:42:57.940 | - I think that's crazy you say that
00:42:59.180 | 'cause even like my childhood,
00:43:01.660 | like my parents like talk about this now,
00:43:04.980 | like with me, like I was the rebel of all the children,
00:43:07.940 | like always getting my phone taken.
00:43:10.860 | I got my phone taken for a year one time.
00:43:12.900 | Like who gets their phone taken for a year?
00:43:16.620 | But like I talked to my parents about it now,
00:43:19.940 | I was like, because you guys didn't let me like do stuff
00:43:24.580 | and instead I was always grounded,
00:43:25.620 | you were taking my phone and this and that,
00:43:26.580 | it just made me want to rebel more.
00:43:28.500 | Like I never like ran away far,
00:43:30.780 | but I mean, Sierra will tell you,
00:43:32.100 | like there was a couple of times I did,
00:43:33.620 | like I was so mad that they were making me do,
00:43:36.940 | and they kind of recognize that now,
00:43:38.660 | but I think like for me and my kids,
00:43:40.660 | I think about how I parent my kids
00:43:42.060 | and it's yeah, it's more exactly what you say.
00:43:44.220 | It's like, instead of telling these kids,
00:43:46.940 | no, you can't do this, stay in line, this and that,
00:43:49.460 | all that's going to do is make them kind of rebel more,
00:43:51.740 | but when you can--
00:43:52.580 | - Also hide things.
00:43:54.180 | - Yeah.
00:43:55.020 | So if you're like taking their,
00:43:56.700 | like I don't take their devices.
00:43:58.420 | If I'm going to do something,
00:43:59.580 | like my son like backtalking me
00:44:01.460 | or not doing what he's supposed to be doing,
00:44:03.180 | I'll just like shut the internet off.
00:44:05.780 | I'm not going to like take something
00:44:07.220 | that like I bought him a PC for his 18th birthday,
00:44:09.220 | it was like $2,000 computer.
00:44:11.820 | And I wouldn't take that from him.
00:44:14.540 | Like so many people, like his dad has taken so much from him
00:44:17.100 | like stolen money from him, like birthday money.
00:44:21.020 | And I would never do that.
00:44:22.580 | So I think as a parent,
00:44:23.660 | just like making sure you're aware
00:44:25.460 | of what's going on in your house.
00:44:27.540 | The internet is a dangerous place, straight up.
00:44:30.020 | Social media, crazy.
00:44:32.300 | I'm just monitoring all the time as much as I can
00:44:34.820 | without it being in a way that's like,
00:44:37.700 | I'm going to watch what you're doing.
00:44:39.420 | It's more like creating an environment
00:44:40.940 | where your kids are comfortable talking to you about things
00:44:43.380 | and not feeling like they're going to get in trouble
00:44:45.100 | or judged or whatever.
00:44:47.460 | Like if I mess up and I'm like snap at my kids
00:44:50.500 | or I'm my temper's short that day.
00:44:52.500 | And I say something like out of left field
00:44:54.740 | that I shouldn't have said,
00:44:56.140 | I will sit with them and be like,
00:44:57.380 | I'm sorry that I said that.
00:44:59.820 | I'm having a rough day.
00:45:00.780 | I lost control of my emotions and I apologize.
00:45:04.140 | Like I didn't mean that.
00:45:06.300 | So they know like, okay, well she's taking accountability.
00:45:08.980 | So like, it feels more like a mutual relationship
00:45:13.020 | instead of like you're on top all the time.
00:45:17.060 | - Right.
00:45:17.900 | - Yeah.
00:45:19.180 | - Well, I mean, yeah,
00:45:20.740 | I feel like obviously through all the bad,
00:45:24.380 | you've come to a place where like this is,
00:45:27.300 | people like you is what this situation in the world needs
00:45:30.740 | and like people with your bravery and courage
00:45:33.180 | and vulnerability like for this kind of issue.
00:45:37.060 | And I don't know, I mean, obviously we live in a,
00:45:39.940 | this is an evil world and a lot of bad things go on,
00:45:43.100 | but I feel like you sharing your story
00:45:47.860 | is just, it's important.
00:45:49.780 | Like it really is.
00:45:50.700 | And I just, I feel like you individually,
00:45:54.220 | like I really hope God makes himself real to you.
00:45:57.540 | I've never like prayed for anybody on a podcast
00:46:02.540 | and it's not because I would pray for you
00:46:04.340 | because I like feel, I mean,
00:46:06.140 | obviously I feel terrible about what happened to you,
00:46:08.260 | but it's more just all you went through,
00:46:10.660 | like God is gonna use your story
00:46:12.740 | in a way that is like really powerful for a lot of people
00:46:16.540 | that you save a lot of lives.
00:46:18.580 | You give people courage to talk up about their situation.
00:46:22.140 | So I just wanted to ask you if I could pray for you.
00:46:24.820 | And then I wanted to invite you to church on Sunday
00:46:27.020 | 'cause you said you haven't been to church for a while.
00:46:28.460 | - I haven't been to church since I was like 12.
00:46:30.860 | - So let's go Sunday.
00:46:31.980 | So yeah, if you're good with it,
00:46:34.540 | I just wanted to end this podcast
00:46:35.660 | just praying for you, if that's cool.
00:46:36.500 | - Yeah, that's totally fine.
00:46:38.140 | - All right.
00:46:39.740 | Dear Lord, thank you for Kat.
00:46:41.380 | I wanna thank you.
00:46:43.220 | Just the woman she is, Lord,
00:46:44.900 | and I just wanna thank you for the healing
00:46:46.340 | that you've brought about in her life
00:46:48.420 | and giving her the vulnerability
00:46:49.860 | and the courage to share her story.
00:46:51.660 | Just thank you for the woman she is.
00:46:55.020 | I ask that you make yourself real to her.
00:46:57.260 | Heal her in ways that she didn't even know was possible.
00:47:01.500 | Show yourself to her, make her whole,
00:47:05.580 | give her complete confidence and wholeness in herself,
00:47:09.020 | and just help her realize that the things
00:47:10.660 | that happened to her are not her fault.
00:47:13.620 | There's no shame, there's no guilt there.
00:47:16.700 | You take that all on yourself,
00:47:18.740 | and just please show her that.
00:47:20.380 | We love you and we appreciate you,
00:47:23.780 | and we thank you that even though terrible things happen
00:47:26.420 | to all of us, that you somehow can turn that
00:47:29.860 | into a beautiful story.
00:47:31.900 | In Jesus' name, amen.
00:47:33.020 | Cool. - Thank you.
00:47:35.660 | - Well, I appreciate you being on this podcast so much.
00:47:39.300 | This was for sure one of my favorite episodes
00:47:41.020 | just because this is just an issue
00:47:43.100 | that I've always been passionate about.
00:47:44.980 | I was always confused why I wasn't kind of brought
00:47:47.220 | to the light a little bit more,
00:47:48.300 | so it means a lot to me that you were willing
00:47:50.700 | to get on here, and I thank you.
00:47:51.540 | - Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:47:53.220 | - Of course.
00:47:54.060 | - Hopefully lots of people see and behave differently.
00:47:57.980 | That's all I can hope for.
00:47:59.260 | - 100%. - Yeah.
00:48:00.540 | (upbeat music)
00:48:03.120 | (upbeat music)