(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome back to another episode of Curious Mike. I'm here with my friend Kat. Really excited to have you on. You know, this topic is something that I believe needs to be kind of like spoke about more, brought into the light a little bit more. So I appreciate your bravery like in everything and sharing your story and being vulnerable.

So why don't we start like early childhood, like what was your first memories growing up? How was your childhood and all that? - My childhood was kind of spotty. My memories are a little spotty back then. My dad wasn't around much. So I think that's sort of what led me to what we're going to speak about.

I was super emotional as a kid, very needy for affection. And my mom had went through like domestic violence situation while I was growing up. I was like a baby. My sister was a little older. My dad used to like abuse my mom and hit her. And my mom had a daughter after my older sister.

So my sister, Mary Kay, was a little bit older than me. My mom was pregnant with me when she passed away, which made my mom decide to finally leave my dad because he wasn't like supportive. And she was dealing with domestic violence. So after that happened. - What age were you around this time?

- My mom was pregnant with me. - Oh, around this time with her? - When she passed, yeah. So that's why everyone says I'm super emotional because my mom was so sad, her whole pregnancy. But yeah, she passed and my mom left. And then she was a single mom for a while.

She got remarried a couple of times. It just, it was a little inconsistent. We moved a lot. We didn't stay in one place for a long time. And she sent me to live with my aunt and uncle once or twice. And because they had like a nuclear family, like a traditional mom, dad.

They were more well off than we were. So I had experiences there. And then they told me that I had to go back to my mom's because my cousin got pregnant at 15. So I went back to my mom's and that's kind of where everything started. - And you went back there around what age?

What age is this? - 13, 14. - Around 13? - Yeah. - Gotcha. - Yeah. So yeah, I moved back with my mom and she worked all the time. She was never home. So I wasn't getting the emotional support that I needed at that age. Like I very much needed guidance and she didn't have a choice but to work, obviously.

So that's when everything kind of went left. - So, okay. So you said you were around 13 or so. You know, mom's working and you're kind of independent at a very young age for the most part. - Yeah. - So like when was the first time you got approached by a man inappropriately?

- I was young. I was like, that was up with my aunt and uncle. It started happening. - Back in the day. - Like 11, 12. - So this is just something that like all of childhood you were kind of exposed to a little bit. - Yeah, it was kind of like, I remember like construction workers like hitting on me and my friends when we were like 11.

- Just 'cause you guys were, had so much freedom. - We were just out. - We were just out doing your thing. - Yeah, wearing shorts and like a tank top in the summertime. And it was very sexualized from a very young age. I don't know if it's just where I'm from.

Like, I don't know if it's like small town syndrome but it was crazy. So I think, and then not having a dad. - Right, just for the protection or brothers for their protection. - Yeah, like I just wanted acceptance, I think. - Yeah. - So I started like running away from home because my mom wasn't around and she wouldn't listen to what I needed.

So I started running away, like first started running away to Southwest Detroit with like friends that I'd met in school and skipped school all the time. And eventually ended up moving from Southwest Detroit out to the West side. - With your mom? - No, just running away. - Oh wow.

- Like I would just hop on a bus and go into the city by myself. - And your mom, is she reaching out? - She had no idea cause she was at work all the time. - That's crazy. Okay, so you're doing that, you're running away from home and things like that.

So now kind of you're in your teenage years, get into kind of the whole story about everything. - Yeah, running away to the West side, I suck out like a sore thumb. So I made a friend there, me and her ended up like becoming friends and just like hanging out with people in the neighborhood.

I stayed with her and her boyfriend at the time. And I thought it was just like, I'm free, like I have what I can do whatever I want. Like I thought it was cool. And in the neighborhood, like I think I started to see like the darkness. Like we would walk down the street and like guys would try to holler at us.

And if we like didn't respond positively, they would squirt you with like pee. Like they would fill squirt guns with urine and spray you. - I heard that on one of your podcasts I was just thinking to myself, where does that happen? Like I've never, you said Southwest Detroit, right?

- No, this was on the West side. - West side, like I've never heard of that. Guys just having water guns with pee. - Premeditated, I don't know. They're just trying to cause trouble, I guess. But yeah, so that was like, okay, this isn't just like fun and games.

Like it's actually not okay. And I went to Coney Island to get like chili cheese fries 'cause they knew me and like, if I couldn't pay, they would just like hook me up anyway. And this guy walks in and he introduces himself, buys my, pays for my food. And he was like, I have somewhere you can stay.

You can come, you know, it's cool. Like I'll take care of you. And I'm like, okay, because I had no idea. It was like a thing. I didn't know it existed. I didn't know like pimps were a thing. - Random guy walks in the restaurant, random guy walks in and just pays for your food.

- I had known somebody was looking for me for a while because like I made friends with the guys in the neighborhood, but like they weren't really my friends. They were just like scouting for him, I think. And they were like, oh, James is looking for you. Like he's like, you know, next time you come around.

Like, so I think they were just telling him where I was essentially. So yeah, he ended up picking me up. I went to the house with him in Brightmoor and I walk in and there's like a bunch of girls my age that looks like me. And I don't know, it was just like, what is going on?

- Was it like, as soon as you walked in there, where you did your like alarm go off in your head or were you just kind of like, you had no idea? - No. - You're just kind of naive to everything. - Very naive, unfortunately. So like the girls were really welcoming and nice and there was no like warnings.

There was no like bad feeling. He didn't give me any bad vibes at all. So I think when that part revealed itself, I was like shocked because I wasn't expecting it. Like I thought this person just wanted to help. But again, I'm naive. I wasn't raised in like a bad neighborhood.

I wasn't raised around people that I needed to like figure out. So things kind of like were cool for a couple of weeks. He took me shopping, bought me clothes, like took me to get my tongue pierced. Like I was doing all these things and I was just like, oh, this is so fun.

Not realizing like that was a debt I was accruing. So that, like when I finally like saw him, like the real him, we were, I was going up, there's like an attic space. I was like going up there and he stopped me on the stairs and pushed me down on my back and was like, oh, I have to test you out before you start working.

Like you have to pay off all the stuff that I got you. And I was like, what, what do you mean? Like I have to pay it back. Like I'll give it back to you. Like I didn't realize that's not how it works. You can't just be like, here, take your clothes back.

I'm gonna go home. - Yeah. So that was the first time you saw him switch. - Like completely switch, yeah. Different person. Like the first time I saw in a man's eyes that he wasn't there. - Right. - Like it's like blink. So it was like, if you're like crying and you're like begging them to not do what they're gonna do, like they don't hear you because they're just.

- And how many months into the situation living with him? - It was a couple of weeks. - Okay, so he was nice those couple of weeks buying you things and then that first situation happens. - Yep. And then, yeah, he sexually assaulted me on the stairs and I didn't fight back.

I was quiet because you're kind of like in shock. And I found out he had done that to all the girls. Like all the girls he would rotate. Later I figured that out. But like his son was around, he was like three or four. His baby mama was around.

So she knew what was going on but nobody warned me or warned anyone. So it was crazy. - So these girls are living with you for two weeks and they never said a word about it. I wonder, did they feel like they were indebted to him or were they just scared or what are you thinking?

- Probably scared. And some of them I think like kind of like accepted this was their life. - Just what they had gotten into. - So they were like making the most of it. - Right. - Like we would goof off and like hang out and drink and smoke and like, it was just like our new normal, you know?

- And how long did this kind of thing go on just in the house with him? - In the house, not long. - Okay. - So once he like kind of made that clear, he would start taking me with him, like out. So there was him and this other guy with dreads.

I don't remember his name. But he drove like a Bronco. I specifically remember the Bronco. And they would take us like outside of the city. So we would do like in-calls with like people in suburbs, like my neighborhood. We went to like neighborhoods right around my neighborhood where my mom was.

And they would just send us in the house. Nobody would be with you. You'd go in like 13, 14 year old girls. There'd be a guy there waiting. And then you would have to do whatever he asked you to do and then leave. - So at this point, you guys are 13 and 14 years old.

See, I didn't realize you were that young. And so at this point, you know what it is and you're just like living his life. Was there like, did you come up with any... So you're going into these houses by yourself. Are you trying to come up with any plans to escape or are you just kind of accepting it or how did that process go for you?

- I think it was, there was one time me and a girl tried to get away. There was like a neighbor who was, I think it was one house down, maybe two. But she was like an older lady. And we would always talk to her. Like she was cool with James.

So I wasn't sure if it was like a safe place to go and talk. But she was like, yeah, like you guys need to come over here like four in the morning when everyone's sleeping and my son will come and pick you up and take you out of here.

We're like, cool, like we're gonna do it. So the next morning we get up early, we're like sneaking out the door to go over there. And she let us in, she's like smoking crack. She's like offering us crack. And then I was like, this is like not, this is not what I thought it was.

Like, this is not a safe place. Her son comes and picks us up and takes us to his house. And then essentially informs us that we are now going to be working for him. So it was not like. - Yeah, so she was on the same thing. - She was hustling me or hustling us basically to try to get her son doing what James was doing.

- Okay, so did James ever find out and you guys. - We ended up going back. Like we ended up like leaving that guy's house because he wasn't as organized. He wasn't organized. James like had people circling the block all the time. So if we walked outside, we knew people were watching us.

Like they would just roll by all day, but this guy didn't. So we just took off and went back. - Okay, so during this time, obviously you're not having a lot of communication like with your mom. Is she worried or is she at this point, you had gone away from the house so many times.

- She was looking for me. - The entire time? - In the beginning, well, the whole time. There was a lot that transpired before James. Like when I was running away, like I was with this one guy that was in his thirties and we would like sleep outside in downtown Detroit in Hart Plaza, like wintertime.

Because I just like, didn't want to be home. Like I had some sort of thing with my mom. I don't know what it was. I'm trying to figure that out in therapy now. But there were so many instances where I ran away and was doing like stupid things. In this situation though, she was looking, she was telling the police, there were reports made and they wouldn't do anything.

Like they weren't like, she's a runaway. She's a runaway. Like it's not like I was a missing person. I was running away. - Right. - So they weren't taking it very seriously. But she did end up finding me. We can get to that, but. - Right, okay. So yeah, continue kind of with the story from there.

So this is kind of becoming a thing. James is taking you out with him and it's this whole system going on. So then yeah, go from there. - We went to, we were doing outcalls at houses and then we would do hotel stuff as well. So he would get two hotel rooms.

He would take us all there. We would all like mob into one room. And then the other room was used for like clients, people that came to like see us or whatever. I was in, I had like a bleeding disorder. When I was a teenager, I was taking this birth control and I had an adverse reaction.

So I was like heavily bleeding and it wouldn't stop for weeks. Like I was like pale. And he ended up having me meet this, it was at the Knight's Inn, I believe, in Sterling Heights or something. He had me go in this room and there was this guy in there and he was a doctor, I found out, and I had to sleep with him.

And he ended up giving me a prescription for the birth control I needed to stop the bleeding. So it was like-- - Yeah, what type of messed up stuff is that? - Crazy, yeah. And then downtown Detroit, I remember the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup that year. I don't remember what year it was, but everybody was outside.

Like all these people wearing wings jerseys and we were in a hotel downtown and me and this girl, Camille, and these two guys walk in. They asked for two girls and they were like my uncle's age. Like they just reminded me of my family members and they had wedding rings on and I was just, I think at that point, you're like nowhere is safe.

You can't trust anybody. Like if you have a doctor, you have married guys, you have anybody you could think of. And I remember leaving some of the houses and being like that guy was so nice, but you wouldn't believe what he was doing. - What he's doing on the side.

- Like low key, yeah. So the trust issues were, at that point you're just accepting, you can't trust anyone at all. And we were at this Red Roof Inn and it was a rule you can't leave the room or talk to anyone. And in the lobby, I'm sure he paid the hotel managers off or something.

Like they knew what was going on. And there was a family down there and I was talking to the dad. And I wasn't like telling on him or anything, but I walked back up in the room and Camille was in the room and she was like looking at me and she just kind of like does this, like letting me know something's up, but I didn't know what it was.

And I closed the door behind me and he popped out and like hit me in my face. Like cold cocked me in my face. - This is James. - Yeah. I think he was in like his late 30s or 40s at this time. And he was like kind of a bigger dude, probably close to 200 pounds.

And I was not prepared for getting hit in the face. But that was the first time he like physically like hit me. But he did it to the other girls all the time. Like you would just see it. - And it's not like this guy was bipolar. Like sometimes he was nice.

Sometimes when he flipped a switch on the stairs that one day he never went back to like being. - No, he did. - He did it back and forth. - It was like, he's nice unless he's not. Like unless there's something that's triggering him or he wants you to know he's serious, like it would shift.

So you would always try to like be good. So you didn't have to see that because it was like terrifying. So you had to just be like obedient and do what he asked. - And his son was always with him. And I remember from a very young age, always like thinking about his son.

So it'd be like, I can't say anything. I can't do anything. I can't act crazy or be like disobedient in front of his kid because then his kid would see him hitting a woman. And then his kid is gonna grow up and do the same thing. - I think it's very admirable that that was your thoughts during that time.

You know what I mean? Like actually thinking about this guy's kid instead of, you know, throwing a tantrum and. - There's no, yeah, there's no point in doing that. - Okay, so that incident happened then did this become like a regular thing or what went on from there? - What do you mean like going?

- From him hitting you. - No, I don't remember him hitting me again after that because there was no reason to. It was just quiet. - It was quiet the entire time. - Didn't do anything, yeah. And I was staying at his, we were back at the house. I remember going out, I was with some guy.

He was dropping me off. We had just like did stuff. And my mom, like I didn't realize it was my mom, but we pulled up on this like side street and I see a blue Sunfire parked and the interior light is on. And I see like a white lady and I was like, that's weird.

And then I was like, that's my mom. So as soon as I saw her and she saw me, she like locked in and like turned her mom voice on. It was like, Catherine Michelle, get in this car right now. So I got in the car and told her what, I didn't tell her what happened.

I didn't tell her actually until I was like in my late 20s, like the-- - The extent of everything. - The extent of it. And she, anyway, she took me to the police station down the street and the cops were just very like dismissive and were like, well, you probably should just like leave it alone.

Like you don't know who he is. It's not safe. My mom's like, there's a house full of girls underage over there. Like my daughter is telling you this and you're not doing anything. They're like, well, it's not that simple. And it was just not, I just wanted to go home.

- So that's one question I have for you. So why do you think that like law enforcement and everything is so dismissive of the, and one of the reasons I wanted you to get on this podcast is 'cause I feel like this issue is so under talked about. And I remember looking it up on Google or something, the amount of times this happens to kids underage, but you know, people in general is like crazy, but it's not a mainstream talked about thing.

And I feel like even, you know, you go to law enforcement, you tell them what's going on and they don't act on it. Have you thought about why you think that is? - I don't know. I honestly, I'm sure it's like hard to develop a case, but the fact that he just got arrested and put in prison, I don't want to say for sure.

I think it was like 2012 ish or 13, maybe. I'll have to look it up, but he was locked up and he's still in prison. He's eligible for parole in 2028. But between the time this happened to me and that time, like how many girls did he affect? Like because the cops were dragging their feet or like, oh, we're building a case for how many years?

Like how many girls are sacrificed so that you can get a case? Like, come on. It just doesn't make sense. - It doesn't make sense at all. And the runaway aspect, like the human trafficking stuff is so focused on the very extreme cases, like three-year-olds, four-year-olds, like being trafficked across countries and like all that, which is a huge issue, don't get me wrong.

But domestically, like the teenage girls that are running away, that are at risk because they're rebelling or they don't have a dad or their parents are on drugs or whatever, but they just need a little bit more attention emotionally from their parents. They're being trafficked and nobody's talking about it because if they get picked up on the street, they get arrested and booked for prostitution.

- Right. - And they're 14 and 15. So it's just crazy to me. - It's unbelievable. So your mom sees you, she has you get in the car. Did this guy come back after you at all or did he just leave it completely alone once your mom got you?

- Left it alone and I like dealt with like guilt because I left girls behind. - Yeah. - Like, I don't know what happened to them. I don't know where they are. Like he had another house where he kept older women that I don't know, I never met any of them.

I just remember pulling up there, he would run drugs in and come back out and we would leave. - Okay. - But everyone, like it's hearsay, but everyone was like, that's where he keeps the girls that like were no longer teenagers. They're addicted to substances because that's how he would get girls to like stay.

Essentially, they would rely on him for drugs. And then he just kind of hid them away. And I think those women were working like the street where we were doing like private in-calls. - Private, yeah, that makes sense. So how many years after you get out of this situation is he finally, they build a case and they arrest him?

- Year, like so long, like over a decade. - And what did they get him for? 'Cause you just said he's out for parole, 2028. - 2028 he's out for parole. It was like prostitution solicitate, like all the, everything he got in trouble for was for like prostitution related crimes.

- And that's a... - Like I have all of his court transcripts that I'm sifting through right now, but that's it. There was no rape on there, which really bothered me. - Right. - 'Cause I had reached out to a detective in Southfield 'cause that's where he got caught up.

And I was like, "Hey, I had interactions with this man. He raped me when I was a young teen. What is the statute of limitations?" And she was very, it's like, almost like they don't wanna deal with it 'cause it's so much paperwork. She's like, "Well, you need to write down every single thing that happened the whole time you were with him and send it to me." And I wasn't like at a place in my healing journey where I could sit down and write everything down step-by-step, like that's a lot, it takes a lot.

I'd rather talk about it, but that's not really an option. - So all this happens, you go back with your mom and you said you didn't really tell her the extent of things. Like what was your life like for those next, like how did you move on from this?

Was there, like what happened after this? - I pretended it didn't happen. - Really, and you're what age at the time? - I was like 15, 16, well, I met my son's dad when I was 16. So when I came back with my mom, she sent me to alternative education, like an adult education with all the bad kids.

So I met this girl there and we used to go to River Rouge all the time, which is like on South of Detroit. And I met her cousin, he was 24, I was 16. And I got pregnant like a month or two months after we met. - Is this guy a good dude?

- No. I raise my kids by myself, he's not involved. - Really? - But yeah, he was like a good dad for a while. And then I left because he was emotionally abusive. So I left once I like grew up and like realized this is not okay. And after that, he is not involved.

He pays $46 a week in child support. - This dude does? - For two kids, yeah. - Well, you are a warrior. Yeah, I wanna like bring some attention to this because so I'm sure all these things that come out like the "Sound of Freedom" movie and all these things, I'm sure they hit a little different for you being kind of like in that situation.

The other day I was on a Zoom call with Child Rescue Coalition. I don't know if you know what that is. They're a nonprofit for, but they were walking me through how they developed a software to like figure out these guys who are creating material and they're able to track them.

They give all this information to law enforcement. All law enforcement has to do is go and look at these cases. Look at the, and they can, all they gotta do is call the Comcast or whoever it is and get the physical address. But they, so many cases are left like on-- - They don't even follow through on it.

- They don't even like-- - It's so frustrating. - To believe like how much this issue is like ignored. Like it's one of the most prevalent like crimes that is not really talked about. And I was asking them the same question, like why do you think it's not more mainstream?

Why do you think when "Sound of Freedom" comes out, some of the mainstream media outlets are kind of like pushing back on this movie? I just couldn't wrap my head around it. Do you have like any thoughts on why you think that is? - I haven't seen "Sound of Freedom." I just spoke about this actually last week.

I did a podcast with this man I met in prison doing a basketball program. We went to prison and between the lines and played basketball with the inmates. And he has a podcast and we spoke about "Sound of Freedom" and how there are certain undertones in the movie. Think that for me, these movies are great for awareness, but it very much like makes me feel like a wayfair type of situation.

I don't know if you remember that like media storm where they were like, "They're shipping kids in cabinets." It was crazy. - Do you not believe in that or do you think that happened? - No, I'm so, I just feel like it was such a conspiracy. - So the conspiracy side of all this, you know, these rich white dudes that are, you know, getting these kids and doing this crazy stuff, you don't really believe in that side of it?

- I do 'cause there were rich white dudes buying me, so yeah. I mean, that's another huge problem. Why aren't the men who are purchasing children, why aren't they going to prison? - Yeah. - Why is my pimp in prison for all those years? I mean, he deserves it.

But all the men that purchased me and the girls that were with me, like, where are they at? They're just out like living their life. It's a supply and demand situation, so. - They may have a whole family, whole kids. - They have no idea. - And they have no idea that these guys are going to hotels.

- Yeah. - Did you ever, in your mind, like, want to expose these individuals that you met or was there no-- - If I knew who they were, I would put them on blast. If they have daughters and their daughters have sleepovers, like, these are the things I think about.

So you are married, I always pay attention to like rings or if they're putting something in their pocket when they come in. It's their ring, usually. And I'm like, I'm not stupid. Like, you start to like learn game really quickly 'cause you have to. And I would just think about that.

Like, if you have a daughter at home or if you have a son or whatever, like, what are you doing at home? Does your wife know what's going on? Or you're not using protection with the children you're sleeping with and neither are 15 other men who are doing the same thing.

And then you're taking those things back to your family. It's just crazy to me. - It's really hard to talk about, honestly, just because it can happen to so many people. So many people don't grow up in a stable household and I feel like those are the kind of the environments that it can happen.

But even like, you know, I've heard so many stories about even like kids at a park or something and their parent turns their head for a second and it just, I just don't understand why it's not like pushed more of it as an issue. That's the thing that I kind of like, when we had the opportunity to speak about, that was the thing that I kind of wanted to get across is like, this is like a mainstream issue but it's getting pushed to the back burner.

And that's why I think like the conspiracy side of it, like why, is it the same people in power you think that are doing it? Or what do you think the police officers kind of like knew who this guy was and they just kind of were involved? - They knew who he was 'cause they warned my mom.

But I don't know like how, as far as like, I think about like Jeffrey Epstein or whatever. - I was gonna ask you about that. - And like the documentaries about him and how, and the woman that was with him, how all of it is so focused on them and not what the damage they did has done to the people that were affected.

So we have to like live with it forever. I have to get therapy. I have to figure out how to make my life work as a mom and business owner and how I interact with the public. You know, for years I couldn't go outside by myself at night, like I would have full on panic attack.

If a man was anywhere behind me, like full on fight or flight, like I'd be shaking. - Yeah. - And it's taken so long to get past it and it's not really fair. - It's not, it's not fair at all. I mean, I think that part of the putting this kind of at least stopping it a little bit is kind of going after these guys who just think that because they have money or because they can do these things to these children, women in general, but obviously like it's so many people that are affected by it, even like there's so many people that don't talk about it 'til they're way older, but like it may have happened by an uncle or someone else when they're young.

How have you been able to find like any sort of healing like from this? - Well, the interview last year was a big step for me. I didn't talk about that side of things ever. So there's like, well, I'm a single mom, obviously like starting to date and like carrying the weight of what I did as a teenager is hard because like, regardless of if it's my fault or not, or if it was consensual or not, I was like, I have like bodies like at 36, like between the age of like 13 and 15, like there were a lot of people like sexually.

So I think the shame tied in with that, I didn't want to talk about, I didn't tell my mom, like I didn't want her to think about me as like being promiscuous or being a prostitute essentially. Like I don't want to be put into that category, not that there's anything wrong with it.

People that consensually do it and want to do it on their own, that's their own thing. But when you're a kid, I don't think it fits in the same category. You're not working, it's not your job. So I think in dating and like trying to build my confidence and like feel empowered when I'm interacting with men, I kind of had to just be like, this is like me, this is what happened.

This is my history, it's part of who I am. It's why I do a lot of things I do. So it's important that people know that. And yeah, I don't, that's just, it took a long time. And when my mom finally saw the interview, she like lost her mind.

- Yeah, I'm sure. - She was like, I had no idea. And I'm just like, I didn't want you to think I was like dirty. - How did she react to that interview? - She was hurt. - Just, I'm sure she felt like, yeah. - People came for her.

- Yeah, I'm sure she felt guilty about things as well. - But I ran it, like I don't blame her. She did the best she could with what she had. She was severely abused, lost a child, never went to therapy. Wasn't, I feel like our parents' generation, they aren't as in touch with that.

It's more of like a forget it and move on. Don't live in the past kind of thing. When you don't realize your past is always with you. It like affects everything that you do. - Right. So there's a such thing as called like generational kind of like curses or generational traumas where maybe the parent of a child is doing something, but the child sees it and then they grow up and the same thing happens to them or they do the same thing.

- Like obviously, you know, speaking about a healing from it and things like that, you've broken that. But was that, do you think because of how your father treated your mom that in turn like affected you to, do you think, how do you think that all went together? - Yeah, I still deal with dad stuff.

So I'm not really great at relationships. I'm just like always waiting for the person to bail at any given moment. I'm never like comfortable and content. I'm always on the edge of my seat waiting for the shoe to drop. They'll be like, "Oh, I like you so much." And I'm like, "Just wait until you see like the trauma stuff or I talk about that." Like, and then they can't handle it and they dip.

And then I'm like, "Oh, I was right." Like they left. So it's almost like this cycle of, I do self-sabotage. I've had like good relationships that I just, it's almost like you don't know how to act when somebody is like genuinely into you or being nice or treating you nicely.

It's kind of like, why are you being nice to me? Because like James did that and look what happens. So I'm just like, what's the motive? - Has any of this, 'cause I know like people go through trauma in different ways. A lot of people's trauma doesn't relate to yours at all.

I feel like people react in like one of two ways. Sometimes it draws them kind of like, "Oh, I have to go to God with this and let him heal me or else I'll never be whole again. I'll never feel whole." And then some people it's like, "Because such bad things happened to me and I see so much bad in the world.

I want nothing to do with God or anything." How did you kind of react to all this in terms of that? - Religion or God in general? - Just God in general, I would say. 'Cause I think like people that have been through a lot, regardless of what it is, they either like lean on God and that's the only thing that kind of like helps them or they want nothing to do with God just 'cause they see all the bad in the world.

- That's hard for me. - I'm sure it is. - I definitely went through a spell where I was like trying to figure out what I was. Like, am I like a Buddhist? Am I, I was vegan for so long. I was sober for 10 years. Like, I was so afraid I was gonna be like my dad so I didn't touch anything.

And I couldn't find anything that like aligned with how I feel about things. But I have like had moments where I'm curious about it or I want to know more. But I haven't actually, like, since my grandfather passed away, I don't think I've like spoken to God or tried to get assistance in that way.

Because like my life is very much like you, like I have to do it. That's just what it is. People are like, oh, you're a great mom. Like, you don't have to do that. Yeah, I do because my son's dad is not there. Like they're young men. I have to like try to show them how to like keep it moving regardless of what you're going through.

And I don't feel like I can rely on anyone outside of myself. So when it comes to God, it's very hard for me to like put my trust in that source because I don't see it or feel it in my life. - That's understandable. Do you feel like, what do you feel like your purpose is at this point in your life?

Do you feel like your story, I mean, obviously you've touched so many people. I mean, all you gotta do is look in the comments of your interviews and see so many people that either relate to your story or, you know, want to help out. Do you feel like through everything that's bad, it has shaped your purpose at all now in life or?

- Yeah, I know what it is. I know what my purpose is. It's like crazy 'cause I've figured it out finally. And it involved going to prison, which was wild. So I was the only girl that went and I went with a really good friend of mine. And going into a place that is all men who have all done, I mean, bad things in some capacity, right?

Things that are illegal or haven't and they're there, you know, not having to be. Like that was so big for me and so overwhelming emotionally because I wasn't prepared for how I was gonna feel. Everyone's like, you're crazy. They're gonna like be inappropriate. They're gonna cross boundaries. And it was not like that at all.

Like they were so respectful and I felt safe. And we were just out in the open, like hanging out, talking, learning about each other. I even had a pimp come up to me after our last game, like the last day. It was like, hey, I'm here for pimping and pandering.

Like I just wanted to introduce myself. And it was great. It was like a full circle moment for me. So my view on this issue is like very much a like societal systemic issue. So my pimp, like I can only assume he grew up in Detroit. There's no opportunity in the city at that time.

It is desolate, like despair. There's not even like a target. You have to go outside the city to get like anything. So imagine just like being trapped in a city. You have no means of like getting out or going to school. Like all the schools were closing down. There's no recreation centers for kids.

So you're growing up with this issue and you're seeing men in your community sell drugs or pimp or whatever they're doing. And that's just like what you do. Like it's a societal thing. So I don't view him as like a bad person because I'm like he, that's all he knew.

He was surviving. - I think that takes incredible strength and compassion, but you are right. I mean, any, I feel like any community where, you know, the members of the community get into, I mean, this is kind of a separate issue. I feel like, you know, no matter how bad the community is, there's no really justification for that.

But when it comes to like, you know, the violence in communities or selling drugs or some of these other things, you're right. It is very systemic. - It's environmental. It's like what you see, like nurture, nature. Like did you, did he have a dad? Probably not. Like there's just so many elements that come into play.

And yes, he was a grown man and continued to do it. And he should be in prison, absolutely. I just tried to find the humanity in the situation and understand the psychology. Like, why did it happen? So I'm not like, this person's just evil. He's just bad. 'Cause I don't think that he was born, he wasn't born that way.

- So you would say you in your heart are fully forgiving this individual? - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I would like, I'm hoping to sit with him one day, like go before he gets paroled and sit and talk to him. That's the goal. But that's also why I went to the prison because like these men are like, they're still human.

And I think if more women that were survivors or people that have survived crime would like sit down and like build like some sort of human connection with the other side, like there could be so much healing that can take place. You know what I mean? - And just forgiveness in general and people see that and more people feel the courage to do that.

- Yeah, yeah. - So that is what you view now as your purpose. - Yeah. - I think that's huge. - Yeah, and awareness, definitely. For teen girls, like that's my focus. - How do you think young girls can avoid? I mean, obviously some people, it just happens. They can't avoid it.

How would you warn people or kind of like, how can they avoid it, you think? - It's hard because I don't put it on the teen girls. - Of course not. - I put it on the parents or the guardians. So I feel like it starts like much younger than that.

So if your daughters are like, you're noticing they're like in their head or they're depressed or they're in their room all the time or they're always like on their device, like talking to God knows who, right? Like you have to find a way to connect with them and reach them in a way that's not like authoritative or you're not like telling them what to do.

Like, it's hard for parents to do that. But like, if my daughter is throwing a tantrum and I'm getting like frustrated, I will just grab her up and hug her and it immediately diffuses the situation. Like she's not throwing a tantrum anymore. It's crazy. Like, instead of like pushing your kids away and like telling them to like stop acting that way or you're grounded, I'm taking this, I'm taking that, like bring them in and give them affection and spend time with them and talk to them and like get to know them on like a human level because-- - I think that's crazy you say that 'cause even like my childhood, like my parents like talk about this now, like with me, like I was the rebel of all the children, like always getting my phone taken.

I got my phone taken for a year one time. Like who gets their phone taken for a year? But like I talked to my parents about it now, I was like, because you guys didn't let me like do stuff and instead I was always grounded, you were taking my phone and this and that, it just made me want to rebel more.

Like I never like ran away far, but I mean, Sierra will tell you, like there was a couple of times I did, like I was so mad that they were making me do, and they kind of recognize that now, but I think like for me and my kids, I think about how I parent my kids and it's yeah, it's more exactly what you say.

It's like, instead of telling these kids, no, you can't do this, stay in line, this and that, all that's going to do is make them kind of rebel more, but when you can-- - Also hide things. - Yeah. So if you're like taking their, like I don't take their devices.

If I'm going to do something, like my son like backtalking me or not doing what he's supposed to be doing, I'll just like shut the internet off. I'm not going to like take something that like I bought him a PC for his 18th birthday, it was like $2,000 computer.

And I wouldn't take that from him. Like so many people, like his dad has taken so much from him like stolen money from him, like birthday money. And I would never do that. So I think as a parent, just like making sure you're aware of what's going on in your house.

The internet is a dangerous place, straight up. Social media, crazy. I'm just monitoring all the time as much as I can without it being in a way that's like, I'm going to watch what you're doing. It's more like creating an environment where your kids are comfortable talking to you about things and not feeling like they're going to get in trouble or judged or whatever.

Like if I mess up and I'm like snap at my kids or I'm my temper's short that day. And I say something like out of left field that I shouldn't have said, I will sit with them and be like, I'm sorry that I said that. I'm having a rough day.

I lost control of my emotions and I apologize. Like I didn't mean that. So they know like, okay, well she's taking accountability. So like, it feels more like a mutual relationship instead of like you're on top all the time. - Right. - Yeah. - Well, I mean, yeah, I feel like obviously through all the bad, you've come to a place where like this is, people like you is what this situation in the world needs and like people with your bravery and courage and vulnerability like for this kind of issue.

And I don't know, I mean, obviously we live in a, this is an evil world and a lot of bad things go on, but I feel like you sharing your story is just, it's important. Like it really is. And I just, I feel like you individually, like I really hope God makes himself real to you.

I've never like prayed for anybody on a podcast and it's not because I would pray for you because I like feel, I mean, obviously I feel terrible about what happened to you, but it's more just all you went through, like God is gonna use your story in a way that is like really powerful for a lot of people that you save a lot of lives.

You give people courage to talk up about their situation. So I just wanted to ask you if I could pray for you. And then I wanted to invite you to church on Sunday 'cause you said you haven't been to church for a while. - I haven't been to church since I was like 12.

- So let's go Sunday. So yeah, if you're good with it, I just wanted to end this podcast just praying for you, if that's cool. - Yeah, that's totally fine. - All right. Dear Lord, thank you for Kat. I wanna thank you. Just the woman she is, Lord, and I just wanna thank you for the healing that you've brought about in her life and giving her the vulnerability and the courage to share her story.

Just thank you for the woman she is. I ask that you make yourself real to her. Heal her in ways that she didn't even know was possible. Show yourself to her, make her whole, give her complete confidence and wholeness in herself, and just help her realize that the things that happened to her are not her fault.

There's no shame, there's no guilt there. You take that all on yourself, and just please show her that. We love you and we appreciate you, and we thank you that even though terrible things happen to all of us, that you somehow can turn that into a beautiful story. In Jesus' name, amen.

Cool. - Thank you. - Well, I appreciate you being on this podcast so much. This was for sure one of my favorite episodes just because this is just an issue that I've always been passionate about. I was always confused why I wasn't kind of brought to the light a little bit more, so it means a lot to me that you were willing to get on here, and I thank you.

- Yeah, thank you for having me. - Of course. - Hopefully lots of people see and behave differently. That's all I can hope for. - 100%. - Yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)