Lex Fridman plays chess with Demis Hassabis
00:00:00.000 | You probably need to have multiple agents running in your head.
00:00:04.240 | So one agent is how do I play good chess?
00:00:08.600 | Yeah.
00:00:08.920 | Second agent, how do I play not too good of chess?
00:00:12.760 | And third agent is how do I help Lex move correctly?
00:00:16.720 | Okay.
00:00:19.320 | We have five minutes each.
00:00:20.640 | Uh, it looks like I've got, you've given me white Lex, which is nice of you.
00:00:24.000 | Uh, we'll, we'll start the clock.
00:00:25.920 | So my clock's counting down.
00:00:27.400 | Okay.
00:00:29.760 | Non-standard.
00:00:30.600 | Yeah.
00:00:30.880 | The English opening, you know, I'm English, so I have to do that.
00:00:33.280 | So, you know, you press the clock when you're, when you've done your move.
00:00:36.480 | That's a good starting move.
00:00:37.680 | Very solid Lex.
00:00:38.680 | Oh, that's not good.
00:00:39.840 | Yeah.
00:00:40.040 | No, this is good.
00:00:41.080 | This is very solid.
00:00:41.960 | Okay.
00:00:42.400 | We're quite far away from the, uh, from the board.
00:00:45.760 | Yeah.
00:00:47.760 | I'll press your clock for you.
00:00:48.720 | Don't worry.
00:00:49.160 | Are we far away from the English opening at this?
00:00:55.440 | No, this is a, this is a good line.
00:00:56.960 | You're playing very, um, very standard.
00:00:59.840 | You have to get used to the one.
00:01:01.240 | They always do the funny thing where, uh,
00:01:03.680 | very nice.
00:01:06.640 | You have to take, uh, you have to take notes of actually what move you've taken.
00:01:12.120 | Yes.
00:01:12.600 | Uh, yeah, that's a good, always a good plan.
00:01:16.800 | Keeping the King safe.
00:01:17.960 | I'm going to do the same.
00:01:19.320 | Play very well so far.
00:01:20.760 | We just, we just say, I mean, you made your mistakes at this point.
00:01:23.400 | Nothing so far.
00:01:24.280 | This is, I'm not gonna, I'm like, Oh, here's the Bishop Knight swap that we
00:01:27.760 | were talking about earlier, right?
00:01:28.880 | The tension you creating the tension in the creative tension in the game,
00:01:31.640 | the tension, relieving the tension.
00:01:33.120 | Exactly.
00:01:33.640 | All right.
00:01:34.960 | Now it gets harder.
00:01:38.160 | Now you have to come up with your middle game plan.
00:01:40.360 | Would you say you did a very good opening, but you're in a, you're
00:01:45.200 | in a, you're in a fine position so far.
00:01:47.000 | Yeah.
00:01:47.440 | Very nice.
00:01:48.160 | Very nice.
00:01:49.640 | What's your strongest opener opening game or end game?
00:01:54.440 | Well, I would say probably the middle game middle game.
00:01:57.320 | So this kind of, this kind of point.
00:01:59.160 | Very good.
00:02:02.800 | Very good.
00:02:03.400 | Very aggressive.
00:02:04.240 | Very aggressive.
00:02:05.280 | Lex.
00:02:05.720 | If I could sacrifice pieces, I really would.
00:02:12.000 | That's not a good move.
00:02:14.520 | Is it?
00:02:14.760 | No, that's a good move.
00:02:15.720 | That's a very nice move.
00:02:17.120 | Are you afraid of using the Queen?
00:02:21.160 | Yeah, the Queen, you know, you've got to be careful when you use the Queen.
00:02:26.160 | I need to complicate the game a little bit for you.
00:02:28.080 | You're doing too well.
00:02:29.400 | Lex.
00:02:29.720 | Oh, am I losing a piece here?
00:02:31.560 | No, you're not losing a piece.
00:02:33.240 | You're doing okay.
00:02:34.000 | Actually.
00:02:34.480 | I'm going to take it anyway.
00:02:36.680 | It's only a pawn.
00:02:41.600 | It's how it starts.
00:02:44.200 | Only a pawn.
00:02:44.560 | That's how it starts, but it's only a pawn.
00:02:46.120 | Very good.
00:02:48.600 | This is not.
00:02:52.800 | Still a pawn.
00:02:53.400 | Only a pawn.
00:02:54.080 | Sorry.
00:02:55.360 | I have to.
00:02:56.080 | I don't feel comfortable with you having a Queen on the board.
00:03:00.720 | Takes the Queens off.
00:03:02.560 | Less dangerous.
00:03:03.360 | Makes you feel safer.
00:03:04.680 | So now we're in the end game now.
00:03:05.840 | So you're on better territory.
00:03:07.240 | What's the definition of an end game?
00:03:08.720 | Well, the Queen's coming off is usually the beginning of the end game.
00:03:12.160 | It's not the only part of the end game, but it's one bit of the end game.
00:03:16.360 | See, that's a pretty cool idea what you've done there.
00:03:18.920 | I'll take off your knight now.
00:03:21.000 | I think the internet's going to disagree with that.
00:03:25.240 | Now you see this is an interesting dynamic position with your Bishop and my
00:03:28.360 | knight, but my knight's in a good, good strong spot there.
00:03:31.720 | So you're attacking the Bishop, my, the Bishop is not.
00:03:35.800 | So what do I do with this Bishop?
00:03:37.240 | Yeah.
00:03:37.640 | Maybe I need some other kind of way.
00:03:39.640 | All right.
00:03:40.080 | Yeah.
00:03:40.360 | But then you're going to attack there.
00:03:44.720 | I don't know.
00:03:45.320 | I think I'm just running scared.
00:03:49.160 | You're running scared now.
00:03:49.960 | Fear can't run.
00:03:50.880 | Can't run it.
00:03:54.080 | Um, okay.
00:03:55.960 | Yeah, that's not, is that, that's the only one.
00:04:02.280 | All right.
00:04:05.240 | It feels like there's not much to do here.
00:04:08.760 | Well, you've got to, you have to have to come at something good here.
00:04:11.320 | Oh boy.
00:04:13.240 | And the time is running out.
00:04:14.440 | Time's running out.
00:04:15.320 | Escape.
00:04:17.080 | That's a good escape for your King.
00:04:18.360 | I'm going to come here now.
00:04:19.480 | Yeah.
00:04:20.360 | There's nothing else.
00:04:21.680 | There's nothing else.
00:04:22.600 | Take another, get another one of your Pawns.
00:04:24.320 | I feel like there's some smart move that I'm totally missing.
00:04:27.840 | Yeah.
00:04:29.680 | That seems reasonable.
00:04:30.640 | But I'm not going to take a second Pawn.
00:04:32.080 | Okay.
00:04:33.000 | That's what you mean?
00:04:33.800 | Yeah.
00:04:34.080 | I'm going to go here.
00:04:38.520 | Maybe just eat away at the, eat away at your stuff.
00:04:42.720 | All right.
00:04:43.480 | Yeah.
00:04:48.800 | This is not, this is slowly, slowly constricting you.
00:04:52.200 | Yeah.
00:04:53.360 | It's like, you're going to take all your Pawns.
00:04:54.760 | You play very well though.
00:04:57.000 | Lex, you haven't made any major mistakes, but it's just slow, slow, slow death.
00:05:00.400 | The internet, honestly, we'll very much disagree, but, um, let's see this.
00:05:06.280 | A slow death is better than, than a fast death.
00:05:08.880 | Embarrassing.
00:05:10.640 | In the beginning, I said, didn't get checked.
00:05:12.200 | Well, I'm going to go for it.
00:05:13.040 | I'm going to go for it.
00:05:13.720 | I'm going to go for it.
00:05:14.360 | I'm going to go for it.
00:05:15.000 | I'm going to go for it.
00:05:15.560 | I'm going to go for it.
00:05:16.080 | I'm going to go for it.
00:05:16.600 | I'm going to go for it.
00:05:17.080 | I didn't get checked in the first few minutes.
00:05:18.880 | This feels very constrained.
00:05:20.360 | Yeah.
00:05:20.520 | You're very uncomfortable.
00:05:21.880 | Constrained.
00:05:22.480 | I feel like Alpha zero.
00:05:23.840 | Um, is that, that would be the defined?
00:05:26.400 | Yeah.
00:05:26.640 | Kind of controlled, uh, controlled end.
00:05:29.360 | You know, the interesting thing is the willingness to sacrifice pieces by Alpha zero.
00:05:34.600 | That's so beautiful.
00:05:35.560 | It is beautiful.
00:05:36.400 | See, so now I'm going to make use of all these Pawns I've taken.
00:05:39.560 | Um, would you say your Alpha zero is much better than you?
00:05:46.920 | At sacrificing pieces?
00:05:48.160 | Oh yeah.
00:05:48.560 | Intentionally.
00:05:50.080 | I sometimes, you know, lose them by mistake, but Alpha zero is planning to lose them.
00:05:54.600 | It feels extremely constraining.
00:06:01.080 | Yeah.
00:06:01.320 | How close are you to checkmate?
00:06:02.240 | Is there any way for me out of this?
00:06:03.760 | No, really?
00:06:04.360 | No.
00:06:04.600 | So these pieces can't.
00:06:05.960 | Yeah.
00:06:06.200 | I'm getting basically all your pieces are getting constrained.
00:06:08.360 | I'm just going to march these Pawns down here or bring this Rook to help out.
00:06:12.360 | Okay.
00:06:13.120 | So if I take this Knight with the Rook.
00:06:15.560 | Yeah, you could do that.
00:06:16.480 | That would be a final sort of hope.
00:06:18.680 | My Knights, you see how strong my Knight's been in this game compared to your Bishop.
00:06:22.600 | Yeah.
00:06:23.040 | As we were talking earlier.
00:06:23.840 | He's already done the damage.
00:06:24.480 | Yeah.
00:06:24.680 | It's done all the damage.
00:06:25.680 | Yeah.
00:06:26.760 | You can get rid of him now, but I think he's already, it's already done all the damage.
00:06:30.360 | Oh, and my time ran out.
00:06:31.680 | And your time ran out.
00:06:32.760 | We're going to finish this anyway.
00:06:34.880 | Finish the game anyway.
00:06:35.880 | It's time ran out.
00:06:37.480 | So you've lost once, but we can, we can lose two times.
00:06:39.800 | Um, yeah.
00:06:41.280 | Take that.
00:06:43.040 | But now I'm going to get, take advantage of your back rank weakness.
00:06:47.440 | Right.
00:06:49.960 | And, uh, right.
00:06:54.600 | And then this Pawn structure, and you're going to bring out the other Rook.
00:06:57.120 | I'm going to bring the other Rook.
00:06:58.000 | Finally going to swing the other Rook into the game.
00:07:00.000 | Check.
00:07:05.760 | I'm just going to keep writing.
00:07:08.480 | How many moves would you estimate here?
00:07:11.760 | Uh, it's going to be about 10 from here.
00:07:13.760 | I'm going to swap your Rook off.
00:07:15.880 | Your final defensive piece.
00:07:20.120 | I'm going to take.
00:07:20.880 | Is that?
00:07:22.520 | No, that's, that's fine.
00:07:23.920 | Well, you can, I'll check you here.
00:07:25.960 | Oh,
00:07:28.040 | yeah.
00:07:29.920 | And he's just marched that.
00:07:33.520 | I'm going to march this Pawn to the end now.
00:07:35.200 | Well, I think this is a good, you played well.
00:07:39.640 | Honor to have been defeated so gracefully.
00:07:42.600 | You played very, very well.
00:07:44.000 | I was impressed.
00:07:44.880 | I was impressed.
00:07:45.680 | You, you did, you did great.
00:07:46.880 | I didn't ask you, what do you think is the most beautiful thing you've seen?
00:07:50.080 | AlphaZero do?
00:07:50.880 | Oh, yes.
00:07:51.520 | Personally.
00:07:52.080 | Yes.
00:07:52.400 | So there was actually.
00:07:53.680 | The most beautiful game that I've seen AlphaZero plays is being dubbed the
00:07:57.960 | Immortals Zogzwang game by, uh, uh, Akadamato on the, one of YouTube, brilliant
00:08:03.880 | YouTube, uh, commentators.
00:08:06.080 | Uh, uh, and he, it was, uh, AlphaZero playing Stockfish and, um, sacrificing
00:08:13.480 | a load of pieces to, uh, get Stockfish as all of the Stockfish's major pieces,
00:08:18.520 | Queen and two rooks stuck in the corner, basically seal them up like in a two.
00:08:22.600 | And Zogzwang means, uh, that, uh, any move that the player makes will
00:08:27.640 | make their position worse.
00:08:29.080 | And, um, it's never been done to Stockfish before and AlphaZero
00:08:32.400 | did it super elegantly.
00:08:33.520 | Through sacrificing.
00:08:34.920 | Sacrificing pieces.
00:08:35.960 | Yeah.
00:08:36.160 | It's a beautiful video online on it.
00:08:37.640 | And thank you for giving me and signing this book.
00:08:40.600 | Game.
00:08:40.880 | You're welcome.
00:08:42.000 | Uh, what's, what is the book?
00:08:44.200 | The book was written by, um, the British chess champion and, uh, and, uh,
00:08:50.000 | woman international master, Natasha Reagan and Matthew Sadler.
00:08:52.720 | Uh, and we get, I known them both for years, for my chess days as a kid.
00:08:57.280 | And, um, when they heard about AlphaZero, uh, before we released it, they, they,
00:09:03.440 | they wanted to come in and try it out and we gave them full behind the scenes access
00:09:06.920 | to it.
00:09:07.280 | And then, um, Matthew Sadler said to me, it's like discovering the notebooks of a,
00:09:12.240 | of a, of a hidden champion that no one knew about.
00:09:15.120 | And he then wrote this book about all of the different ideas that AlphaZero had.
00:09:19.760 | And the cool thing is in there, in that book, so this is, it's a chess book, but
00:09:23.360 | also the first few chapters about, about how we built AlphaZero, our journey towards
00:09:27.520 | it.
00:09:27.680 | And then Magnus Carlsen was one of the first people we gave the book to.
00:09:31.640 | And he, uh, he sort of publicly said it was very useful to him and he's incorporated a
00:09:36.720 | lot of the ideas into his own play.
00:09:38.240 | The new ideas, you could say created by AlphaZero.
00:09:41.920 | AlphaZero.
00:09:42.000 | Tilex, a fellow explorer of the mysteries of the universe.
00:09:45.560 | Demis, that, thank you so much.
00:09:48.320 | You're very much.
00:09:48.880 | Thank you for everything you do.
00:09:50.120 | Thank you.
00:09:55.120 | [BLANK_AUDIO]