France: Experience the World’s Most Popular Destination Like a Local

00:00:00.000 | you're trying to help someone think about constructing their

00:00:02.320 | their kind of two week itinerary to France, how would you think

00:00:04.920 | about breaking it out? And, you know, of all the places you just

00:00:07.760 | mentioned, are there some highlights you think are great

00:00:09.880 | for a first trip?

00:00:11.080 | Well, you know, the the feedback I get from people is that, you

00:00:14.160 | know, if they fly directly into Paris, it makes sense to sort of

00:00:17.480 | start there, get acclimated, take your time, you know, it's a

00:00:22.440 | great place to just sort of walk around. So if you're if you're

00:00:25.160 | heavily jet lagged, and you're sort of gearing up for maybe

00:00:28.200 | even a more active trip in the next places you're going, it's

00:00:30.840 | good to sort of ease in with Paris. And you know, if you're

00:00:34.360 | if it's a lot easier to adjust, if you know, all you have to do

00:00:37.320 | is walk out your apartment or hotel door and you know, stumble

00:00:40.320 | upon a restaurant, you don't have to go very far, in other

00:00:42.760 | words, to sort of get yourself get yourself going when you

00:00:48.640 | arrive. So I would say spending a handful of days, at least

00:00:51.800 | three or at least four days in Paris would be ideal, to be

00:00:54.960 | honest, before making making your way elsewhere. And I think

00:00:58.720 | for a first time visitor, it makes it honestly makes sense to

00:01:04.040 | do one of two things going to Normandy because of the sort of

00:01:07.600 | cultural awareness that exists, or skipping that and going

00:01:11.880 | directly to the south of France, because you know, that's sort

00:01:14.200 | of one of the other iconic experiences, and something that

00:01:17.480 | is so very different from the Parisian experience.

00:01:20.320 | Hello, and welcome to another episode of all the hacks show

00:01:23.600 | about upgrading your life, money and travel. One of the areas I

00:01:26.800 | love to optimize is travel. And today we're going to talk about

00:01:30.080 | everything you need to know for a trip to France, the world's

00:01:33.160 | most popular tourist destination. We'll dig into some

00:01:36.000 | unique off the beaten path spots in Paris, talk about how to

00:01:39.280 | have lunch like a local and run through all the top regions to

00:01:42.200 | visit. I've been to France about five times now, but I couldn't

00:01:45.360 | think of a better guest to join me than Lindsay Tramuta, who's

00:01:48.800 | been living there since 2006. She's a culture and travel

00:01:52.120 | journalist who's written for the New York Times, eater food

00:01:55.120 | and wine, Condé Nast, traveler and more. She's also written a

00:01:58.360 | bunch of books on Paris, including the new Paris and the

00:02:01.480 | new Parisienne, including a restaurant guide, and even has

00:02:05.200 | her own podcast called the new Paris podcast. So whether you're

00:02:08.360 | thinking about your first trip to France, or you already know

00:02:10.840 | you'll be back there, I think you'll love this episode. So

00:02:13.840 | let's jump in. Oh, and don't forget, if you're enjoying this,

00:02:17.120 | please hit the thumbs up and the subscribe button. It would

00:02:19.440 | really help this channel. Thanks so much.

00:02:22.360 | Lindsay, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me.

00:02:24.880 | Yeah, I am excited. France is one of the most popular not not

00:02:28.480 | one. It is the most popular tourist destination in the

00:02:31.160 | world. I expect most people listening have either been

00:02:34.640 | considered going or even have a trip on the horizon. So I'm

00:02:37.880 | going to start us off. I have two questions for you. One, why

00:02:40.600 | do you think France is number one? And what do you think the

00:02:43.520 | 100 million people who come each year might be missing when they

00:02:46.320 | go?

00:02:47.200 | That's a very good starter question. I think the sort of

00:02:50.720 | enduring popularity has to do with the way France continues to

00:02:55.280 | enter popular culture. So whether it's through through

00:02:58.440 | books, through film, through television shows, I mean,

00:03:02.360 | generations of this sort of myth making and and fantasy

00:03:06.120 | building about France as a destination, really goes far

00:03:11.000 | deeper than a lot of other cultures. Also, I think the

00:03:14.040 | really goes far deeper than a lot of other cultures. Also,

00:03:17.240 | you have to remember the long relationship between the US if

00:03:19.800 | we're obviously France is a global destination. But when we

00:03:23.680 | think about how much it appeals to Americans in particular, you

00:03:27.280 | know, that relates to the long history between the two

00:03:31.400 | countries. And, you know, essentially, France was one of

00:03:35.160 | America's first allies. And so I think all of that combined

00:03:39.480 | creates a sort of attachment, and a fantasy for people even

00:03:45.560 | who, you know, might be armchair travelers, but who know that the

00:03:48.040 | one day that they do, you know, sort of get on the road and are

00:03:50.800 | able to come to Europe, this is probably going to be one of the

00:03:54.720 | first places they come. And I would say Italy probably has

00:03:57.560 | some of this appeal as well, because of the way, you know,

00:03:59.840 | especially the Italian diaspora, having such, such reach around

00:04:05.680 | the world. But actually, the one thing I did come across in

00:04:09.400 | some of the research I've done over the years is that because

00:04:12.800 | France doesn't have a huge immigrant community in the

00:04:15.960 | United States, for example, there's, there's a bit more

00:04:19.680 | mystery involved. And so I think that plays a role as well.

00:04:22.960 | There's a there's a sort of mystery for the average person

00:04:26.080 | as to well, what is France really like, you know, we've

00:04:28.520 | seen this, we've, we've seen the, the films, we've heard the

00:04:31.760 | stories, what is it really like, and I think that is a compelling

00:04:35.720 | draw. As for what people are missing. Really, if you if you

00:04:40.480 | if you're focused entirely on a bucket list, that's already, I

00:04:44.560 | think, going to lead you down a direction of being potentially

00:04:48.560 | disappointed. I mean, I think the kind of version of travel

00:04:52.680 | that I like to promote and that I, you know, that I engage in

00:04:56.440 | myself is really trying to see some of the historic things, but

00:05:00.480 | then quickly add in whatever a local might do. And I know that

00:05:04.080 | sounds sort of like, yeah, how local can you really get? But I

00:05:06.840 | think if you're researching with, you're researching your

00:05:10.120 | trip, in the right places and listening to the right people,

00:05:13.760 | you'll get that more local experience. Because ultimately,

00:05:16.800 | I want to know where, you know, yeah, where the people who are

00:05:20.840 | like me in Paris go when they're in, you know, Rome or, or Sydney

00:05:27.040 | or Tokyo. And I, I think that from from my interactions with

00:05:32.560 | people who have traveled heavily, if you try to do too

00:05:35.560 | much, also, on a first trip, or on any trip to Paris, or to the

00:05:40.560 | rest of France, I think you'll get easily overwhelmed, and then

00:05:43.280 | kind of bogged down by all of the things you saw and almost

00:05:47.440 | incapable of, of remembering sort of what the highlights

00:05:50.880 | were. So I think it's about going slower, and figuring out

00:05:54.720 | what the perfect blend is between, you know, sort of

00:05:57.720 | marquee sites and landmarks and experiences, and then those that

00:06:02.000 | are maybe a little bit less expected and more atypical.

00:06:04.920 | I love that. I've actually gotten, I think, more feedback

00:06:08.520 | from listeners that the thing they want. And, you know, we

00:06:11.960 | were connected by Brandon Presser, who we've had two

00:06:14.960 | episodes with, and we actually talked about planning a trip. So

00:06:18.080 | you don't know this yet. I'm springing this on you. But it's

00:06:20.000 | like, every time we do one of these episodes, I was like, what

00:06:22.360 | if after we actually organize an amazing trip together for

00:06:26.400 | people in the community to potentially go to this place and

00:06:29.240 | do some of these things. And the feedback I got was that

00:06:32.000 | everyone loved the idea of traveling slash like, feeling

00:06:35.920 | like a local experience. Like that is the thing that I think

00:06:38.080 | this audience resonates with. So you I'm so glad you're here

00:06:41.640 | because you you value that greatly.

00:06:44.160 | Absolutely. And I see I see the travelers who are sort of like,

00:06:47.840 | Oh, yeah, I mean, we, even the way they frame the conversation

00:06:52.240 | around what they've done, it's, we did this, this city, we did

00:06:56.360 | that museum, it's like, are you doing what I mean, like, are you

00:06:59.280 | just checking it off a list? Or are you experiencing it? And so

00:07:02.520 | I think those words are very important to the way we sort of

00:07:04.960 | dismiss like, yeah, been there done that I think that's a very

00:07:08.120 | reductive way of looking at traveling to any kind of

00:07:10.480 | destination.

00:07:11.120 | Yeah, so we're gonna get into a lot of that stuff. And I'm very

00:07:15.040 | excited. So but first off, you know, for people who haven't

00:07:19.400 | experienced France, whether that means they've never been or

00:07:22.480 | whether they did the kind of thing, which I'm certainly

00:07:25.400 | guilty of early in my life of, let's go to a city, let's try to

00:07:28.480 | do it in two days. Let's go to the like, top five sites

00:07:31.720 | bouncing, like, I've had that trip. I don't love that trip

00:07:34.360 | anymore. But I've certainly been there. So maybe give some

00:07:37.560 | highlights. What what do you think makes a trip to France so

00:07:41.680 | much different than other places in the world, whether it's

00:07:44.080 | people or food or culture, like, you know, kind of get get people

00:07:46.960 | a little bit, a little bit wet their appetite for for where

00:07:50.280 | we're going to go with this conversation?

00:07:51.880 | Well, you know, what I think is even astounding to me as someone

00:07:55.640 | who's lived here for 16 years is how each region really feels so

00:07:59.760 | different. So yes, you're in the same country, there's this, you

00:08:03.000 | know, a semblance of shared values, of course, across the

00:08:06.160 | country. And, you know, but beyond that, geographically,

00:08:10.320 | gastronomically, in, in so many other ways, culturally, each

00:08:18.000 | region really feels like it could be it's almost its own

00:08:20.480 | country. And but the great thing is that it is so easy to get

00:08:23.520 | around here, through trains. Obviously, there's most of

00:08:28.400 | everything you want to see and do can be accessed either on by

00:08:31.440 | train or by by a quick flight. And, and that's kind of a huge

00:08:36.240 | gift, especially when you you know, obviously, you're in the

00:08:38.440 | US, I grew up in the US, and everything is such an ordeal.

00:08:42.000 | It's such a, it's such an expense. It takes ages to get

00:08:46.360 | most places. And then once you're there, you kind of are

00:08:49.360 | also like, I got to maximize my time here. And I think the

00:08:53.360 | ability to, to engage in like much slower travel is all the

00:08:57.880 | more possible here. So I would say one of the compelling

00:09:00.920 | reasons I think one of the gifts of France really is that you can

00:09:05.480 | start in the north and go east, west or straight to the south.

00:09:10.000 | And every experience you have is going to feel slightly different

00:09:12.800 | because they're really their own, you know, their own little

00:09:16.440 | mini cultures and microcultures. And, and so that's why, you

00:09:20.400 | know, one of the things that sort of occurred to me through

00:09:22.440 | COVID, when I couldn't go very far, was just how lucky I was to

00:09:26.560 | have all of this on my doorstep, you know, and in that case, you

00:09:29.320 | know, what's taking less trains, but I would get in the, in the

00:09:31.840 | car with my husband, and we would go on more road trips. And

00:09:34.400 | I think if you're someone who also likes to, you know, the

00:09:37.760 | idea of renting a car and driving across France, that's

00:09:40.440 | also possible. And, you know, to give you an example, my husband

00:09:43.880 | just went on a rock climbing trip. I mean, he's, he's away

00:09:46.880 | right now and drove six hours, arrives, and he's already, you

00:09:50.880 | know, already got in a session last night after, you know, a

00:09:53.800 | six hour car ride. And I mean, it just, obviously, the size of

00:09:56.760 | the country allows you to do that. But when you live here,

00:09:59.920 | whether you live here, or you're just visiting, I mean, that that

00:10:02.120 | is something that means you can actually do quite a lot and have

00:10:05.240 | very different experiences in one trip.

00:10:07.680 | Yeah, the one new parable I adhere to on any trip is travel

00:10:13.120 | like you're coming back for sure. Because I feel like early

00:10:16.840 | on my idea was gosh, there's so many places in the world to go

00:10:19.600 | to. Every time I go somewhere, I have to act as if I'm never

00:10:23.520 | coming back. Like I literally 180 my perspective of make sure

00:10:28.120 | I do everything cram it all in because I might not be back to

00:10:31.520 | let's just assume I'm absolutely coming back and have a good

00:10:34.200 | experience and, and so got the right mindset. Yeah. And culture

00:10:39.520 | is is an interesting one, because I think it's it's not

00:10:42.000 | something that easily fits on a checklist. But it's something

00:10:44.960 | that when you really experience it, it's so memorable. So I had

00:10:49.480 | a conversation with Rolf Potts, who wrote a book called

00:10:51.400 | vagabonding. And I can't remember if this was in the

00:10:54.400 | pre talk or in the episode, but he said he was talking to

00:10:57.200 | someone who went to France and was so frustrated that all they

00:11:00.880 | wanted to do was they wanted to experience the culture of

00:11:03.160 | France. And they went to a cafe, and they sat out on the

00:11:06.280 | sidewalk, people were walking by. And two hours later, they

00:11:10.320 | still hadn't been able to eat and get their bill. And they

00:11:12.680 | were so frustrated, because all they wanted to do was leave the

00:11:15.200 | cafe to go experience the culture of France. And he's

00:11:18.320 | like, you just missed it. Like sitting at a cafe, taking two

00:11:22.400 | hours to eat your lunch is literally experiencing the

00:11:25.160 | culture of this country. Yet you were so focused on trying to go

00:11:28.760 | do things. So my new thing is relax, slow down, experience

00:11:32.320 | what's there. Don't plan too much.

00:11:34.160 | Absolutely. I mean, also, that's how you, you know, when you're

00:11:38.200 | when you're racing to get to the next, I don't know, museum

00:11:40.640 | visit, or food tour, or whatever, that's when you miss

00:11:43.040 | some of the most memorable moments, also, because of the

00:11:46.280 | people you're going to be exposed to, whether it's the

00:11:48.600 | person sitting at the table next to you, or sort of the, you

00:11:51.200 | know, the strangers walking by, but I mean, and also France has

00:11:54.000 | the idea of the flaneur. So someone who strolls aimlessly,

00:11:58.560 | really with no destination, and it and strolling is is almost an

00:12:02.160 | inadequate word for the idea, because it truly means that you

00:12:05.240 | are at, you are one at one with the with the with, with the

00:12:09.200 | sidewalk with with the city with the, the natural motion of the

00:12:13.520 | city, you're, you're seeing things you don't usually see,

00:12:16.360 | whether it's like, you know, the guy managing the Ferris wheel in

00:12:19.240 | one of the parks to someone selling chestnuts on the, you

00:12:22.440 | know, at the metro exit, but like, you're fine, your eyes are

00:12:24.960 | open. And because you're not trying to get anywhere, you're

00:12:28.120 | seeing the city in a way or city or place or wherever, in a way,

00:12:32.280 | you don't usually see it. So this idea of the flaneur is

00:12:35.360 | something that I think is very, is naturally appealing to

00:12:38.960 | travelers, if if they're prepared to sort of set the

00:12:43.440 | bucket list aside, set the checklist aside and just be and

00:12:46.640 | so if it means you miss one of the museums, like, you'll be

00:12:49.960 | fine. I think you'll still get a good sense of both what this

00:12:53.520 | place is and how rich it is.

00:12:55.360 | Yeah. Okay. So here's my thought. Let's talk high level

00:12:58.760 | first just about generally structuring a trip because it's

00:13:01.800 | a big country. If someone has limited time, they can't do

00:13:04.160 | everything. And let's talk after that a little bit about the

00:13:07.440 | culture, the people and then dive into some specific places.

00:13:10.200 | So high level, someone's thinking, I want to go to France,

00:13:13.240 | let's just talk about when when to come the different seasons.

00:13:17.120 | And, you know, I'm sure there's an argument for all of them. So

00:13:19.920 | so what kind of experiences you'd have and, and maybe how

00:13:22.720 | long, how long you need, and, and we'll go from there.

00:13:25.640 | I mean, obviously, anybody who has two weeks to spend in

00:13:28.960 | France, I mean, that's, that's kind of ideal. But I know people

00:13:32.720 | who are able to still go slowly, but have, you know, a week or

00:13:38.040 | five to seven days, and, and, and visit a couple of places.

00:13:42.800 | Obviously, it's it's slightly more challenging. And

00:13:45.400 | invariably, they wish they had spent more time. But you know,

00:13:47.880 | whatever, if you don't have two weeks, that's fine. I would say

00:13:50.960 | the period of the year is actually more important than

00:13:54.240 | necessarily the duration of time. The summer is getting

00:13:58.640 | increasingly more expensive, for one. It's also extremely hot

00:14:05.200 | and dry. I mean, France in, you know, is a victim of, of climate

00:14:10.400 | change, just like every destination. But what we're

00:14:13.280 | seeing now is increasing periods of drought. So last summer, I

00:14:17.360 | was traveling in the Louberon, which is inland in Provence. And

00:14:21.880 | there were serious forest fires all over the region. And that

00:14:26.400 | continued well throughout the summer. And so there are things

00:14:29.440 | that change and what you can and can't do, obviously, when you're

00:14:32.040 | in in those parts of France when that's happening. But that also

00:14:36.240 | means that, you know, the the probability of encountering a

00:14:39.120 | heatwave when you're here during the summer is increasing. And

00:14:42.440 | that's even true in Paris, to be frank, like last summer was

00:14:45.080 | extremely hot. A series of days going well over, I guess, 40

00:14:50.560 | degrees centigrade is what like over 100 degrees, or almost 100

00:14:54.520 | degrees Fahrenheit. And when you don't have a lot of AC, like you

00:14:57.680 | feel that in a really significant way. So summer for

00:15:02.200 | me, is not the ideal time to come. If that's the only period

00:15:07.720 | of time you have, then I would maybe guide you toward cooler

00:15:11.440 | locations in France, like the coast, the western coast where

00:15:14.800 | Brittany is, potentially northern parts of France or

00:15:19.000 | Alsace. But you know, even there, they can get extremely

00:15:22.880 | have a series of days that are extremely hot. Spring, I mean,

00:15:27.000 | I'm sitting in Paris right now we are May 18. And the weather

00:15:30.760 | has been erratic, not very warm, very rainy since March. And

00:15:37.120 | every year is a bit different. So really, we can't speak of

00:15:40.000 | sort of like any kind of trend for spring anymore. But the

00:15:43.240 | period of the year that seems to be the most reliable is like

00:15:46.400 | September, October. So if you're able to sort of wait out the

00:15:50.160 | summer travel period and go when most people are back to work,

00:15:54.200 | then you'll have sort of like the best of the country to

00:15:57.520 | yourself. And that's true, even in big cities where yes, things

00:16:01.600 | are back into into action. But you've got restaurants that are

00:16:04.720 | all back open from their summer holiday, you have all the new

00:16:07.600 | sort of museum exhibits and gallery openings and cultural

00:16:11.680 | events happening. And so it's kind of a sweet spot. Christmas

00:16:15.040 | too, is actually a really lovely time because, you know, a lot of

00:16:19.080 | Parisians are sorry, I know, I keep referring to Paris, I mean,

00:16:22.680 | a lot of locals are going to be with their families wherever

00:16:25.680 | you're traveling. But business really keeps going between

00:16:30.240 | Christmas and New Year's. So I'd say the worst time of the year,

00:16:32.800 | I think to be in France is New Year's Day, because literally

00:16:35.720 | nothing is open. And I think even if you're in a hotel, you

00:16:39.440 | might even have, you know, the the restaurant in house

00:16:42.360 | restaurant that's closed. But aside from that, you know, that

00:16:45.680 | the the fall is a really great time to come. So my my advice is

00:16:50.640 | really, you know, whether you have five days or two weeks, the

00:16:53.320 | more important question is, when can you come?

00:16:55.440 | Yeah, well, you could make a good trip. I think I've done

00:16:59.040 | five trips. And I haven't had a bad trip yet. Obviously, I kept

00:17:01.880 | coming back. More most recently was last year, last December, we

00:17:06.440 | came. And we had that Christmas experience. We went to the

00:17:09.640 | Christmas markets. You know, it was it's just wonderful. Like, I

00:17:13.360 | don't think there's a bad time. But I think there is a better

00:17:15.600 | time. And so that's a very optimistic way of looking at

00:17:19.280 | it. Yeah, so and let's talk generally about the regions. I

00:17:23.400 | think people know Paris, whether they've been there or not.

00:17:26.120 | They've obviously seen in the movies. I think I've done a

00:17:28.520 | disservice to the country of France by spending too much of

00:17:31.440 | my travels to Paris, and then some in the south. But even I

00:17:36.160 | feel like I need a little bit of an education on high level, what

00:17:39.640 | are the kinds of regions of places people might want to

00:17:41.960 | consider going to outside of Paris?

00:17:44.040 | Well, you have the Loire Valley, which is very green, very

00:17:47.800 | fairytale esque, known for a chateau known for its incredible

00:17:53.120 | diversity of wines. Also, if you're someone who happens to be

00:17:57.080 | interested in natural wine, it was sort of like the birthplace

00:17:59.800 | of natural wine in France. So there are a lot of very

00:18:02.320 | interesting producers. You have Burgundy, which is sort of the

00:18:07.080 | the the next great spot to be right now. Especially if you

00:18:11.800 | like wine. There's a whole wine route that you can take, that

00:18:18.560 | really leads you through sort of the key towns, winemaking towns

00:18:21.800 | in Burgundy. Then you have, you know, Alsace, which is on the

00:18:26.960 | border with Germany. And you know, Strasbourg is the is the

00:18:30.800 | key city there. And it's very picturesque. It's really

00:18:32.960 | lovely. Christmas is a particularly like the end of

00:18:36.560 | your holiday is obviously a very, very sort of. It's

00:18:42.920 | amazing. I forgot that I had been there until you just said

00:18:46.400 | that. Oh, my gosh, we went there for the holidays. It's so

00:18:49.520 | charming. My wife is the word we go back. And Paris, honestly,

00:18:54.200 | when you compare the Paris way of celebrating the end of year

00:18:58.600 | to what happens in Strasbourg, you're like the Parisians

00:19:02.040 | depressed because they're, you know, the level of festivity is

00:19:05.120 | very tame. So. So, you know, that's that's that. But it's

00:19:08.480 | also beautiful right now, too. It's very green. Brittany, as I

00:19:12.120 | mentioned before, very wild, very, you know, obviously

00:19:17.960 | incredible seafood, beautiful towns. Then you have Normandy,

00:19:22.720 | which is sort of like almost between Brittany and and Ile de

00:19:26.640 | France, the region where Paris is. And you have, you know, the

00:19:29.520 | D-Day beaches, you have lots of beautiful small towns, you have

00:19:34.200 | the you can you can go to the ocean. And then on a completely

00:19:39.280 | different register, you have the Basque Coast, the western

00:19:42.400 | southwestern France, almost getting down into northern

00:19:46.160 | Spain, where you have San Sebastian and Bilbao. And so a

00:19:51.200 | lot of people will do that route. Actually, they'll fly

00:19:53.600 | into maybe Biarritz and visit Bayonne, Biarritz, Saint-Jean

00:19:58.520 | de Luz. There are also big surf towns, which is really quite

00:20:03.120 | special. If you're into that kind of like, you know, ocean

00:20:06.920 | sport kind of adventure, but also very good food and then

00:20:12.000 | heading down even further into the into Spanish Basque

00:20:16.520 | country. Obviously, you mentioned Provence, but you

00:20:20.720 | have Provence sort of like south where Marseille and Avignon is

00:20:24.600 | and then you have the Riviera south, which is very, you know,

00:20:29.160 | very glitzy, very glam. I don't love all of it. I think some of

00:20:33.080 | it is very overly sceny. Saint-Tropez is like my least

00:20:36.880 | favorite place in France, just like Cannes. I think they're

00:20:40.560 | completely overrated. But if you have a lot of money to spend, I

00:20:45.280 | would say between the two go to Saint-Tropez because there's

00:20:47.920 | some absolutely spectacular hotels. But as a general rule,

00:20:52.520 | like they're not, they kind of let you down. They're kind of

00:20:55.960 | like the Vegas of France in some ways. And then the Alps, I mean,

00:21:00.280 | gosh, some of the some of the most incredible experiences I've

00:21:04.000 | had were in the mountains and not only in the winter when

00:21:06.760 | there's snow. So you know, I've been to areas around Mugev during

00:21:11.720 | the summer and done amazing hikes. And then you go back in

00:21:14.360 | this in the in the winter. And yes, like a lot of Europe,

00:21:18.280 | there's less and less snow during the winter to for proper

00:21:22.160 | skiing. And so that's, again, another environmental reality.

00:21:26.040 | But the benefit of someplace like Mugev is that it's lower

00:21:30.040 | altitude. And so even if you can't do like incredible have

00:21:35.200 | the incredible ski slope experience, you have at least a

00:21:37.760 | village and another vibe that's quite special with the chalets

00:21:42.560 | and you can go snowshoeing. So you don't there's just like

00:21:47.600 | whatever you want to do in this country, you can probably do it

00:21:50.280 | and have very different cuisine along the way.

00:21:53.440 | I'm glad you mentioned cuisine because that's kind of like a

00:21:56.200 | core tenant of my style of travel. But before we go too far

00:21:59.720 | down that path, I'm thinking, gosh, you just described like, I

00:22:02.960 | don't know, 10 trips, realistically. No, and that's a

00:22:06.560 | good thing, right? Like, all I can think about now is we should

00:22:08.960 | probably just move there for a few months. Like, why not? And

00:22:13.280 | what I want to know is, okay, so someone's now like, wow, it's

00:22:15.720 | gonna take this trip. Is Paris a must add on a trip if you

00:22:19.240 | haven't been or I mean, you live there, like should someone even

00:22:22.760 | you didn't mention it, I assume because I mentioned, you know,

00:22:25.320 | we said, outside of Paris, but

00:22:28.120 | to me, it's like inconceivable not to come to Paris at least

00:22:30.680 | once, because I think it's so important, even if for sort of a

00:22:33.560 | generalized understanding of France and how it functions, for

00:22:37.400 | better or for worse, it's a country that has been that has

00:22:40.280 | centered everything around Paris, really. And that has to

00:22:43.280 | do with the way the way the monarchy was, the way the royal

00:22:49.000 | court had set things up the way that they perceived sort of the

00:22:52.800 | set the not only the economic center, but the cultural center

00:22:57.040 | of the of the country was necessarily in Paris. And so

00:23:00.200 | they kind of still have this weird thing where it's like

00:23:03.000 | Paris is the is the is the is the golden child, and then

00:23:07.080 | everywhere else is sort of like, you know, the rest of France.

00:23:10.960 | Obviously, people don't view it that way, on an everyday level,

00:23:15.760 | but you do get the sense, especially when you're going to

00:23:17.600 | museums, and you're, and you're digging into that history on a

00:23:20.800 | visit to Paris, you see how important Paris has always been,

00:23:24.760 | you know, in the US, obviously, you have, you know, the the

00:23:27.280 | former, the original colonies that were were super important,

00:23:32.160 | New York, Philadelphia, Virginia, okay. But Paris is

00:23:38.000 | like on another level. And so I think for you to contextualize

00:23:41.400 | the way the country functions, and of course, if that's

00:23:44.560 | interesting to you, I mean, I think it's kind of crucial to

00:23:46.880 | have an understanding of a, of a country, if you're going to

00:23:49.160 | visit, you know, and go beyond just sort of like, again,

00:23:53.240 | checking off a list, but really getting under the surface of a

00:23:55.640 | place, it's helpful to at least know, whether it's in a day or

00:24:00.160 | two have had some sort of experience that contextualizes

00:24:03.400 | Paris and the rest of and the rest of France, and just from a

00:24:07.440 | cultural, historical, architectural perspective, and a

00:24:11.440 | culinary perspective, like, you'd be missing out, you'd be

00:24:14.520 | missing out on a truly exceptional and fascinating and

00:24:19.760 | dynamic experience by overlooking Paris.

00:24:23.280 | I don't disagree having been there plenty of times, and we're

00:24:26.080 | going to spend some time on Paris. I imagine it's also

00:24:29.000 | probably true that I imagine the average person's not gonna be

00:24:32.040 | able to go to all the places you mentioned. If you want to try

00:24:34.560 | the cuisines of those places, I imagine Paris is the place

00:24:37.640 | outside of any region to find exposure to other other styles

00:24:42.680 | in life and food in one place.

00:24:45.200 | That's very true. I'd say maybe the the place where you have

00:24:49.720 | maybe the or sorry, the city or the the destination that is

00:24:55.720 | maybe least represented in Paris is Marseille and that's a that's

00:24:58.960 | a whole other breed unto itself. But cities like Paris and even

00:25:03.080 | Lyon, you can probably find, you know, a fair amount of all the

00:25:08.320 | other regional cuisines to varying degrees of, you know,

00:25:13.240 | excellence and expertise. But no, honestly, Paris is the ideal

00:25:17.800 | place to get that exposure.

00:25:19.600 | So if someone's coming for you, like you said, two weeks would

00:25:22.000 | be great. Let's assume they've got, you know, 1014 days. Paris

00:25:25.880 | is in there. How many days do you think, you know, you could

00:25:29.720 | obviously spend all two weeks there. But if you're trying to

00:25:31.560 | help someone think about constructing their their kind of

00:25:34.000 | two week itinerary to France, how would you think about

00:25:36.320 | breaking it out? And, you know, of all the places you just

00:25:38.920 | mentioned, are there some highlights you think are great

00:25:41.040 | for a first trip?

00:25:42.240 | Well, you know, the the feedback I get from people is that, you

00:25:45.360 | know, if they fly directly into Paris, it makes sense to sort

00:25:48.560 | of start there, get acclimated, take your time, you know, it's a

00:25:53.600 | great place to just sort of walk around. So if you're if you're

00:25:56.320 | heavily jet lagged, and you're sort of gearing up for maybe

00:25:59.400 | even a more active trip in the next places you're going, it's

00:26:02.040 | good to sort of ease in with Paris. And you know, if you're

00:26:05.560 | if it's a lot easier to adjust, if you know, all you have to do

00:26:08.480 | is walk out your apartment or hotel door and you know, stumble

00:26:11.520 | upon a restaurant, you don't have to go very far. In other

00:26:13.960 | words, to sort of get yourself get yourself going when you

00:26:19.840 | arrive. So I would say spending a handful of days at least three

00:26:23.160 | or at least four days in Paris would be ideal to be honest,

00:26:26.640 | before making making your way elsewhere. And I think for a

00:26:30.400 | first time visitor, it makes it honestly makes sense to do one

00:26:35.800 | of two things going to Normandy because of the sort of cultural

00:26:40.440 | awareness that exists, especially if you're you know,

00:26:43.040 | if you're someone who had family active in the war, Normandy is

00:26:48.600 | sort of like, kind of a crucial stopping point. And even if

00:26:54.560 | you're not interested in in in sort of the World War Two

00:26:57.560 | experience, you, you have such beautiful landscapes, such

00:27:03.360 | incredible food that it would, it would make sense as sort of

00:27:06.320 | like, this is this is still relatively close to Paris, I can

00:27:10.360 | drive, I could take a train, I could experience some things.

00:27:12.840 | And then either come back to Paris or move on from there. But

00:27:15.920 | I think it's a good sort of first step outside of Paris, or

00:27:19.920 | skipping that and going directly to the south of France, because

00:27:22.800 | you know, that's sort of one of the other iconic experiences,

00:27:25.760 | and something that is so very different from the Parisian

00:27:28.880 | experience. So if the idea is you're going to sort of mix the

00:27:31.880 | vibes during your trip, you know, being by the Mediterranean

00:27:35.720 | is is honestly spectacular and, and and opens up a whole other

00:27:41.560 | world in terms of understanding France and how it functions.

00:27:46.120 | Certainly, if you're more of an outdoorsy person, I would say,

00:27:51.480 | you know, going from Paris to Provence or Paris to the

00:27:56.280 | mountains would make great sense, because there's so much

00:27:59.360 | you can do, whether it's, you know, like I said, summer or

00:28:02.080 | winter. And, and I would say that the Basque country is

00:28:07.160 | probably better for people who have been a few times only

00:28:10.080 | because it's, it's a it's a very different experience. It's it's

00:28:16.160 | more like the people who go to Portugal, I think, and go, you

00:28:19.760 | know, surfing in in seaside towns in Portugal, or accustomed

00:28:23.760 | to surfing in California. That's kind of the vibe there. And I

00:28:28.320 | don't know that you're getting sort of Yes, it's a it's a sort

00:28:30.960 | of a true French experience. But I don't think on a first trip

00:28:35.480 | that that's, that's sort of the introduction I would I would

00:28:39.640 | recommend. Okay, I want to get to the south of France places

00:28:44.280 | because you mentioned a few not to go but let's pause for a

00:28:46.560 | second there. Any places you think that someone might be

00:28:50.360 | hearing about when they're planning their trip that are

00:28:52.520 | kind of overhyped, or maybe kind of emerging and

00:28:55.640 | underappreciated? I would say still Britney remains like very

00:29:00.200 | there's sort of like a cursory kind of coverage that exists

00:29:07.360 | around Britney for whatever reason, Britney in the Basque

00:29:09.760 | country, honestly, those are the two places. So again, all on the

00:29:12.760 | sort of Western, all the western coast of France that for

00:29:18.120 | whatever reason, I think maybe just in the being in the shadow

00:29:21.960 | of some of these more cinematic places, don't get the kind of

00:29:27.880 | exposure that they deserve, but they are magnificent. And

00:29:31.040 | honestly, they especially in Britney, you'll feel like you're

00:29:33.720 | you know, there's probably more in common with like, the Isle of

00:29:37.800 | Jersey and and and like the experience on the on the English

00:29:43.320 | coast than with else other places in France. So it has this

00:29:47.640 | very wild, very natural, totally other other worldly almost

00:29:54.200 | experience that it that it that it offers and the landscapes are

00:29:57.120 | just absolutely breathtaking. And it deserves to be, I think,

00:30:01.760 | more frequented by by foreigners, simply because it's

00:30:05.520 | also very, it's one of the few places that remains pretty cool

00:30:09.560 | even during the summer. So we have the heat wave, it's sort of

00:30:12.400 | like always the one place we look on the map to be like,

00:30:14.920 | okay, what was the max temperature in Britney in the

00:30:18.240 | week of heat wave, and it usually is the only place in the

00:30:21.040 | entire country that is like, acceptable, like summer

00:30:24.080 | acceptable.

00:30:24.720 | So maybe a good place to add on if it's a hot summer.

00:30:27.920 | Absolutely.

00:30:29.400 | And finally, any mistakes you think people make when they're

00:30:32.400 | planning their trip that you're like, hey, just before we get

00:30:34.520 | into any more details, don't do XYZ.

00:30:37.080 | One of the things that is, I mean, this is a common American

00:30:42.840 | trait, I think is packing like five suitcases and trying to

00:30:46.160 | then go a whole number of places and have to drag this all this

00:30:50.880 | stuff along. And I think that it does that it does a disservice

00:30:54.120 | because accommodations are almost always smaller than what

00:30:57.880 | they're used to in the States. And that must be true in other

00:31:01.040 | countries like Australia, where things are just bigger. And then

00:31:05.400 | trying to then take all that stuff and go to too many places

00:31:08.600 | in one trip. I think people are like, I need to maximize my

00:31:11.600 | time, I get like two seconds of vacation. I get it. But think

00:31:15.600 | smaller. Think about ease of travel. Think about, you know,

00:31:19.720 | this is a very old country. France is very old, much older

00:31:23.600 | than perhaps where you're from. And and the infrastructure tends

00:31:28.920 | to be narrower. And so when you come on your trip with 70

00:31:32.200 | suitcases full of stuff you don't need, or won't even, you

00:31:35.640 | know, remove from the suitcase, it seems like you're just sort

00:31:38.040 | of carrying dead weight. And that's going to be something you

00:31:41.240 | have to drag to every place you go. So sort of this combo of

00:31:45.320 | like overpacking and overpacking your trip with too many

00:31:48.920 | destinations.

00:31:49.720 | I think there's something that it's even it's taken me as

00:31:53.040 | someone who likes to save money, time to process. But there are

00:31:56.760 | some countries where you can't buy a lot of things that you

00:31:59.280 | might be accustomed to. France is not one of those countries.

00:32:02.400 | So, you know, even the simple thing, like, we don't we don't

00:32:06.400 | buy diapers, like you could go buy like, there's a lot of

00:32:09.720 | things you didn't bring a jacket because you didn't think it was

00:32:12.240 | gonna get that cold. There are lots of places that you can go

00:32:14.520 | buy a jacket, you know, other things. So it's not a country

00:32:19.200 | where it's hard to augment what you packed. And so I would say,

00:32:23.020 | keep that in mind, as you're thinking about how much you

00:32:25.780 | actually need to bring.

00:32:26.860 | Also, I have to add this because this is a common thing that

00:32:30.620 | comes up. I mean, even from my own father, who was like

00:32:33.820 | baffled when I was like, you do not need dress shoes. We're not

00:32:37.140 | going to like, a two or three Michelin star restaurant, every

00:32:42.700 | single person who comes to Paris or almost anywhere in this

00:32:46.460 | country wear sneakers or I mean, it's like a sneaker culture now.

00:32:51.420 | So this idea that you have to have this excessively formal

00:32:54.180 | wear to go out to a restaurant means you're packing lots of

00:32:57.740 | stuff you don't need because that is just not the way people

00:33:00.380 | go out.

00:33:00.940 | And I will even say, I have been to one, two or three Michelin

00:33:05.780 | star restaurant in France. And I didn't bring a jacket and they

00:33:08.580 | had jackets to borrow. Yeah, it was like, it didn't fit

00:33:11.940 | perfectly. But I met the requirement without having to

00:33:14.860 | pack a jacket. Right. And so even that there is sometimes

00:33:19.060 | ways to skirt around that requirement.

00:33:21.180 | Totally. It's very rare to get turned away at this point,

00:33:23.540 | because there's usually sort of a solution. But, but the footwear

00:33:26.740 | in particular, since that adds a lot of weight to your your

00:33:29.580 | suitcase, I just want to be like, go go easy on the like

00:33:33.180 | fancy footwear, you won't need it.

00:33:35.220 | All right. Well, so that brings to a kind of another section of

00:33:39.220 | kind of the people, the culture. You talked about, you know,

00:33:42.780 | slowing down, it's where you might meet people. Let's talk a

00:33:45.540 | little bit. How do you describe the culture? I think France has

00:33:47.540 | a bit of a reputation in some people's minds for attitude and

00:33:51.140 | and and people talk about like, what you've experienced, you've

00:33:54.380 | lived there 16 years, like what, how would you describe the

00:33:57.660 | people in the culture in France?

00:33:58.940 | This is a this is a overall a people that are very curious,

00:34:04.700 | very cultured, very, very in tune with the land, I'd say the

00:34:10.980 | average person knows probably more about, you know, like, food

00:34:15.180 | and where it comes from, then then other people I've met, or

00:34:18.780 | that I grew up with, they tend to lean quite intellectual, a

00:34:24.580 | little bit philosophical, they, yes, they have, they can have a

00:34:28.940 | bit of an attitude, they can have a bit of a cynical outlook

00:34:32.460 | on on life. And I think part of that has to do with sort of

00:34:35.180 | falling from greatness, historically, you know, like you

00:34:37.460 | have the you were the great superpower, you had the kings,

00:34:39.780 | then you had the revolution. And, you know, and then from

00:34:42.820 | there, you also had, you know, de Gaulle, who who told you we

00:34:46.900 | were great, you know, that they were great people. And, and then

00:34:50.220 | you sort of slide out of being the sort of superpower, and they

00:34:53.860 | have a lot of soft power, obviously, I mean, this is the

00:34:55.940 | culture that produces and exports that a staggering number

00:35:00.980 | of of high end products, right from from this incredible

00:35:07.060 | artisanal know how when it comes to fashion and handbags and, and

00:35:12.460 | food products, and, you know, sort of all sorts of things, but

00:35:15.860 | it's no longer the diplomatic or political power that it used to

00:35:18.660 | be. And so I think some of that is like they, they have this bit

00:35:21.460 | of a chip on their shoulder of like, well, we were historically

00:35:24.940 | great and powerful. And I think that's something that comes into

00:35:27.940 | play quite a lot, especially as I often analyze, like, the way

00:35:31.460 | the politics works here, and the way people perceive some of

00:35:35.260 | their rights, and that they should always have them or not

00:35:37.860 | have them or, you know, whatever, all the debates that

00:35:39.980 | exist on, on, on sort of what they should or shouldn't be be

00:35:45.540 | given with, you know, without any any fight, I think all leads

00:35:50.580 | back to sort of their trajectory as a culture as a country. So

00:35:55.140 | they're very proud people, obviously, they have a lot to be

00:35:57.020 | proud about, they've contributed a great number of artistic and

00:36:02.140 | gastronomic innovations in the world, but also architecturally,

00:36:07.060 | I mean, Paris, in particular, was was a complete innovator

00:36:11.220 | when it came to urban planning within Europe in the, you know,

00:36:15.540 | what the 17th and 18th century. So I think that's that narrative

00:36:21.020 | or the perspective of Paris and France as sort of this global

00:36:25.340 | innovator kind of got lost along the way, because other cultures

00:36:28.820 | sort of picked up the picked up the pace or, you know, out

00:36:32.860 | innovated them. But, but this is a culture that I think is very

00:36:36.460 | proud of all the things that that the that its people, its

00:36:40.100 | minds, its greatest minds have have done for the world. And

00:36:44.260 | also, it's a culture that I think struggles with certainly

00:36:48.380 | some of the ills of its past. I mean, what other culture? What

00:36:51.860 | other country? I mean, is there any other country that has sort

00:36:54.660 | of like properly come to terms with their past? Probably not.

00:36:57.420 | But this is like an ongoing part of their existence. And you get

00:37:01.420 | that sense that, you know, they're still grappling with

00:37:05.100 | some things. And depending on where you go, that'll be more or

00:37:08.060 | less palpable. But you know, I'm sure some of your listeners will

00:37:12.900 | have heard or seen videos of the protests that we had in, you

00:37:17.220 | know, since the beginning of the year on the pension reform. And

00:37:19.860 | like, you can't dissociate something like that happening

00:37:23.100 | and, and the and the outpouring of, you know, passionate

00:37:27.620 | critique or resistance. You can't associate that with the

00:37:33.220 | way the culture functions overall. I mean, this is a they

00:37:35.980 | fight for their rights. And that's quite admirable. And if

00:37:38.780 | that means that, like, you know, your route to a museum gets

00:37:41.980 | disrupted, like, yeah, that's, that's kind of part of what you

00:37:44.740 | come for, in a way you're seeing a people that are really still

00:37:47.500 | fighting for the rights that they they want to protect and

00:37:51.460 | the rights that they feel that they still deserve. And and I

00:37:55.300 | think you feel that in a way that you might not feel it to

00:37:57.700 | the same extent in other European nations.

00:38:00.940 | And is it easy to meet people? Right? That's a good background

00:38:04.380 | on kind of who they are. But what kind of local experiences

00:38:08.220 | when it comes to personal interactions? Do you think, you

00:38:11.580 | know, American or foreign or traveling to France can expect?

00:38:14.660 | I think as long as you're comfortable or not comfortable,

00:38:19.700 | but at least willing to engage with locals, they'll, they'll

00:38:23.700 | engage with you. I mean, if you if you try to speak a few words

00:38:27.620 | in French, you know, just to be like, you know, hey, I can't,

00:38:31.620 | you know, I speak very little French, I speak English, can I

00:38:34.660 | talk to you in English, and then you go from there, like, and

00:38:37.420 | then you engage them on whatever they're drinking, or, you know,

00:38:40.420 | what they recommend in the neighborhood, people are warm,

00:38:43.260 | people want to have that engagement with people, with

00:38:46.980 | with travelers. And I think the problem arises when you when

00:38:53.780 | travelers sort of assume that they need to be sort of

00:38:57.980 | experience the sitting city alongside or city or country,

00:39:01.340 | whatever, alongside of the people, but without actually

00:39:04.020 | trying to connect with them. I think that that does a

00:39:06.940 | disservice to the experience. And then you're missing

00:39:09.820 | something that's sort of integral to the experience. And

00:39:13.060 | it could be as simple as like, you know, let's say you're

00:39:14.820 | having a wine tasting in Burgundy, and you're like, you

00:39:17.340 | know what, I'd love to know what you recommend, where do you go

00:39:20.580 | when you're not at work? Or where do you go when you're you

00:39:22.900 | know, with your family, trying to get a sense of their version

00:39:26.940 | of the place. And it usually allows them to relax, and it

00:39:30.940 | gives them the chance to sort of provide for your trip, you

00:39:34.660 | know, if they can make a difference in your trip, that

00:39:36.860 | sort of is a is a gift to them. And so I get the sense that

00:39:41.460 | there's this this love of sharing that you just need to

00:39:44.420 | tap into, but it's there.

00:39:45.900 | I never thought about this until just this moment. But there's

00:39:49.020 | such a stark difference between asking someone like, where's

00:39:52.060 | the best x versus what do you think the best x is? And it

00:39:55.180 | seems like a strategy, maybe anywhere in the world, but

00:39:57.780 | especially in France might be to make all of your conversations

00:40:00.580 | very personal to the person you're talking to.

00:40:02.620 | You nailed it. That is exactly what it is. I mean, the French

00:40:05.420 | want to feel like you're you're inquiring them because it's

00:40:09.540 | them. And not just that they happen to be a body that lives

00:40:13.700 | in proximity to some other stuff. And I think I think

00:40:17.380 | that's a that's an accurate way of assessing what they

00:40:22.820 | appreciate, just like they don't expect you to be fluent, you

00:40:26.380 | don't need to like get bent out of shape that you can't have a

00:40:28.460 | full on conversation with them. But they do really appreciate

00:40:31.780 | you trying, whether it's with just the sort of salutations or

00:40:35.060 | asking, you know, where's the bathroom like, just try

00:40:37.980 | any topics that if you find yourself at a bar having a

00:40:41.540 | conversation that you're like, just just don't bring these

00:40:43.900 | things up. They don't lead lend well, you know, to a

00:40:47.380 | conversation in France.

00:40:48.580 | I think talk about wealth is very taboo, especially given the

00:40:53.180 | disparities that exist between the you know, sort of the old

00:40:55.900 | ultra wealthy and the far less wealthy. I would say, stay

00:41:01.820 | clear of politics. I mean, if you ask people about about the

00:41:05.140 | president. I mean, you're not you don't live in the country.

00:41:09.340 | So you know, you don't have that much of a maybe a stake, but it

00:41:13.620 | can get kind of heated. And I think then you run the risk of

00:41:17.100 | them asking, especially if you're from the US, that will

00:41:19.860 | veer right back into sort of our or the American political

00:41:23.100 | system. And if that's not something you're really in the

00:41:25.060 | mood to start debating, then like just keep politics off the

00:41:28.540 | table.

00:41:29.020 | Okay, I like it. And we haven't talked a little bit about, you

00:41:32.940 | know, broadly people and who it makes sense to travel with. We

00:41:37.740 | went with kids. How is France easy for someone with lots of

00:41:41.900 | children to travel around? We were only in Paris. But let's

00:41:44.900 | talk about the people are people warm and welcoming to children

00:41:47.300 | being around? What's your perspective?

00:41:49.660 | They absolutely can be warm and welcoming to children. However,

00:41:53.460 | if you know that you have children who are like really

00:41:56.140 | ill behaved, just good luck, because the French are not going

00:41:59.980 | to hold back. If you're on a train and your kids are going

00:42:03.340 | absolutely ballistic, you'll hear from some people who are

00:42:06.060 | like, you know, you're disturbing us, you need to get a

00:42:07.660 | hold on your kids. And it won't be in the way that I think, you

00:42:10.580 | know, like, again, I can only speak to Americans, but the way

00:42:15.140 | the Americans tend to handle those kinds of situations, but

00:42:17.660 | they'll, they'll give you like horrible side eye, they might

00:42:21.060 | scoff at you, they might also if they're older, they might

00:42:24.300 | definitely try to like, parent for you. And I just think, you

00:42:30.180 | know, there are certain places given there's a lot going on,

00:42:32.860 | especially in a city like Paris, there are a lot of people,

00:42:35.060 | there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of people trying to move

00:42:37.860 | quickly. No, we're not quite like New York. But you know,

00:42:40.620 | people are still trying to go, you know, get to where they need

00:42:43.340 | to go. And if you're traveling with like a bunch of kids, and

00:42:46.460 | they're rowdy, and you don't have a hold on them. Yeah, I

00:42:49.340 | think that's going to be it's going to be stressful for

00:42:51.500 | everyone, yourself included. I also think that in Paris,

00:42:56.700 | especially you don't see a lot of very, very young kids at

00:43:00.180 | restaurants, I think parents tend to hear, you know, they

00:43:04.540 | take them out to the parks, they go to kid focused places. And

00:43:08.500 | maybe during the day, they'll take their kid to a cafe for a

00:43:11.140 | you know, a snack or a hot chocolate or something. But in

00:43:13.220 | the evening, that tends to be sort of like parents time. So

00:43:16.980 | almost all of my friends who have kids, it's extremely rare

00:43:21.060 | that they go out with their children to dinner. So that

00:43:24.860 | might mean, if you're really looking to have a special meal

00:43:27.940 | without the kids, maybe you need to have a plan for a babysitter.

00:43:30.660 | And there are, you know, locals and resources where you can

00:43:33.060 | figure figure that out. Or maybe you have an older child who can

00:43:35.740 | watch the younger child, I don't know. But it's totally possible

00:43:39.900 | in Paris is really all of France's, it can be super fun

00:43:43.220 | with kids. But just know that it depends on your children. And I

00:43:46.620 | think you need to be honest with yourself about what kind of kids

00:43:48.780 | you have.

00:43:49.260 | Yeah, I will say we went out to dinner, almost exclusively with

00:43:54.020 | a six month old and a two year old. And you know, we're, we're

00:43:59.140 | greeted warmly. So

00:44:01.220 | they must be very well behaved, too.

00:44:02.860 | I would say as well behaved as children that age could be. But

00:44:08.780 | but it went pretty well. So great. And then what about food?

00:44:13.580 | Let's talk right before we get I want to go into Paris and then

00:44:16.020 | rest of the country, but high level. Are there culinary

00:44:19.180 | experiences that people need to be having on any trip to France

00:44:22.300 | specific ones?

00:44:23.220 | What I would say is that people who come to Paris specifically,

00:44:28.580 | because Paris is really the place where you're going to

00:44:30.300 | have you could have like a whole host of culinary experiences,

00:44:35.580 | some of which, you know, are traditionally French, and then

00:44:39.540 | the rest are a very modern interpretation of what it means

00:44:43.100 | to eat in Paris today. And that might be blended with Southeast

00:44:47.340 | Asian food, it might be blended with Mediterranean cuisine, and

00:44:52.060 | Mediterranean cuisine could mean from sort of the Levantine parts

00:44:55.900 | of the world to the Italian and French coast. So it really

00:45:02.220 | depends on what you're you're sort of looking for, I would

00:45:05.540 | say, get it, if you're going to go to a place like Paris, if

00:45:08.540 | you're going to go to a place like Marseille, where there are

00:45:11.260 | multiple cultural influences, it behooves you to sort of say, I'm

00:45:15.420 | going to have some very classically French bistro

00:45:17.980 | experiences, I might have a neo bistro experience, which is very

00:45:20.980 | contemporary, very inventive, very market driven. And I'm also

00:45:23.740 | going to have some of the other kinds of diasporic cuisines that

00:45:28.700 | are very present in these places, because they sort of all

00:45:31.140 | make up the fabric of the place. And I think that's the that's

00:45:34.620 | the important thing to keep in mind. Obviously, when you go to

00:45:37.260 | regions that are, you know, haven't really expanded their

00:45:42.540 | international influences, it makes sense to, you know, to go

00:45:45.580 | with whatever is there, places where it's very seafood heavy,

00:45:50.060 | and it's all very local, and you know, whatever the local

00:45:52.620 | vegetables are, like, do that, have that experience. But, but

00:45:57.540 | but certainly, like you mentioned, which was a which was

00:45:59.820 | a great point, if you have limited time, and you're not

00:46:02.420 | going to get to a lot of regions, there's quite a lot of

00:46:05.580 | of choice in Paris alone, to have sort of a smattering of

00:46:10.180 | those regional flavors.

00:46:12.420 | That's great. And is there a source someone could use,

00:46:16.460 | whether it's an app, a site to find, you know, reliably good

00:46:20.220 | ratings or places to eat? I don't think at least my

00:46:24.380 | experience TripAdvisor is not that. What do the locals use to

00:46:28.780 | is it just word of mouth?

00:46:30.140 | It's word of mouth, but also we use le fooding. So it's le and

00:46:35.660 | then fooding. And they they they're sort of like, I don't

00:46:39.500 | know what to call them. They're sort of like, a little bit more

00:46:42.500 | of a niche eater calm, maybe. That's in English as well. And

00:46:48.900 | so if you type in, let's say, obviously, Paris is super

00:46:52.580 | represented, Marseille, the big cities. But if you even type in,

00:46:55.740 | like, I'm going to Megev, which is obviously a much smaller,

00:47:00.740 | smaller destination, they too will probably have a few

00:47:04.340 | recommendations. So I would say it's a it's sort of a, it's a

00:47:08.380 | gauge of quality. Also kind of vibe, I think, you know, the

00:47:13.300 | places that end up in le fooding are both good and also have a

00:47:16.060 | certain atmosphere. And and I think that for to have a little

00:47:22.500 | bit more of an insidery pool of suggestions, that's a better

00:47:27.460 | idea than getting, you know, like Joe from whatever city in

00:47:32.860 | America who said he liked this place that he found randomly,

00:47:36.780 | like, I don't know, you know, that's that's the difficulty

00:47:39.460 | with TripAdvisor and places that sort of just accumulate traveler

00:47:44.940 | opinions. I mean, I think if you're looking for where the

00:47:46.820 | locals go, definitely go to a site that is run also by by

00:47:51.180 | locals and local journalists. I would say Instagram can be

00:47:54.420 | helpful as well. And if you're looking, you know, specifically

00:47:58.300 | for Paris, like I have my own digital guide to Paris, I also,

00:48:01.500 | you know, obviously wrote a book, but the the more updated

00:48:04.180 | version is a digital sort of, yeah, it's like a PDF you get,

00:48:09.060 | and you can use it and you can put things on your Google Map,

00:48:11.420 | there is a connected Google Map. And so there are people who do

00:48:13.980 | that, which I think is helpful. If you're looking, if you, if

00:48:17.300 | you sort of sense that someone is a trustworthy voice, you

00:48:21.460 | know, they might have something already built in for you to

00:48:24.900 | either use or purchase or whatever, that could give you

00:48:28.180 | kind of a whittled down but sharp, curated list of places to

00:48:31.780 | eat. And then if you're obviously a Michelin person,

00:48:35.860 | that's, you know, if you're looking for sort of the fine

00:48:37.660 | dining, I mean, that remains still like a, you know, a very

00:48:42.100 | acceptable guide to planning your your eating, it's just, you

00:48:46.580 | know, might empty your wallet after a while.

00:48:48.740 | Well, your guide is fantastic. I'm going to link to that in the

00:48:51.740 | show notes, people can check that out and know where to get

00:48:54.180 | it. Couple logistic things. timing, what time do people eat?

00:48:59.260 | Do you need reservations? Any kind of logistical guides for

00:49:03.020 | eating?

00:49:03.500 | Yes. So depending on where you go, I mean, obviously, it can

00:49:08.540 | vary. But for the most part, you're not really going to be

00:49:11.580 | with other people until at least seven, 730. Seven is super

00:49:15.220 | early, that's like almost early bird here. There are a few

00:49:18.860 | places that do all day service, you know, sort of like the

00:49:21.700 | nonstop groceries, but that that only gives you a certain type of

00:49:24.940 | food, obviously, like it's, it's, it's like, a small

00:49:28.260 | percentage of, you know, your options. So don't don't figure

00:49:32.980 | that you're going to have, you know, an ambience and get to

00:49:36.460 | start eating before 738. In other parts of France, you know,

00:49:41.980 | that might be a little bit, you know, there might be second

00:49:46.540 | seatings that are at 9pm. But for the most part, especially

00:49:49.580 | when you get into small towns, it's probably going to be 730.

00:49:53.540 | And they stop serving at 10 or 1030. So I think you need to

00:49:57.620 | keep that in mind if you need an afternoon snack. Also, the other

00:50:01.020 | thing people sometimes forget is that they don't necessarily

00:50:03.500 | serve lunch everywhere through the entire afternoon. So you

00:50:07.580 | know, if it opens at 12 or 1230 for lunch, it may close by 3pm

00:50:11.900 | for lunch service. So that's something you definitely need to

00:50:14.860 | plan and in big cities with, you know, some, some pretty, pretty

00:50:20.500 | trendy or just like generally really beloved establishments

00:50:24.780 | reserving ahead is better. But if you arrive and you're in a

00:50:28.420 | hotel, and you speak to your concierge, you know, they can

00:50:31.140 | also try to help get you in so that you don't need to

00:50:33.220 | completely plan everything in advance. My general

00:50:35.820 | recommendation is try to book a few things, and then leave the

00:50:39.260 | rest up to sort of improv.

00:50:41.740 | In some places, I find that if you see a place that looks

00:50:45.460 | crowded, and it looks like it's not a bunch of tourists, it's

00:50:48.060 | probably a good spot. Yeah, worry about it. Is that advice

00:50:52.060 | apply that usually bears out? I mean, popular could also mean

00:50:56.660 | though that depending on the time of day could mean you're

00:50:59.220 | in an area with a lot of companies and people are on

00:51:02.180 | their lunch break, and they go to a certain place because it's

00:51:04.940 | convenient, inexpensive, and fine, but like, maybe wouldn't

00:51:09.300 | be great in the evening. So and that's not something you're

00:51:12.460 | necessarily going to know if you don't really know a city and

00:51:15.180 | sort of where the business districts are. But for the most

00:51:18.940 | part, yeah, I mean, if you if you don't get the sense that

00:51:20.780 | it's like all English speaking, by the same token, there are a

00:51:23.860 | bunch of very excellent restaurants in Paris, for

00:51:25.900 | example, where there are, because they've been written

00:51:28.660 | about so much, they actually have a largely English speaking

00:51:32.100 | clientele, but are also good. So it depends if you want to have

00:51:36.500 | that, you know, that chef or those owners experience while

00:51:40.780 | also being seated with other English speakers. To me, it's

00:51:43.860 | like, only a thing on occasion I'll do because, you know, if

00:51:47.500 | I'm really into trying or supporting that, that, you know,

00:51:50.060 | chef or restaurant owner, but I do find it a bit jarring to be

00:51:53.260 | in a place, you know, where like, potentially, maybe my

00:51:56.900 | husband and I are the only ones speaking French. So in general,

00:52:01.460 | I personally, when I travel, try to avoid those scenarios.

00:52:04.060 | Because I'm never going to really do the research to find

00:52:07.140 | out. But like, is it really worth me going, you know, like,

00:52:10.420 | that's already a bit off putting.

00:52:12.420 | Okay, you mentioned Paris. So let's let's dive in, because I

00:52:15.460 | want to make sure we get to some some details. You know, Paris

00:52:18.980 | incredibly well, you've written books about Paris in multiple

00:52:21.300 | languages. It's it's impressive. Let's talk about someone

00:52:25.260 | planning there. You said, you know, at least three or four

00:52:27.940 | could be a week, days in Paris.

00:52:30.940 | Well, in terms of staying, I think the the first question to

00:52:35.780 | ask is what neighborhood do you really want to be planted in?

00:52:37.980 | Because that can determine the rest of your, your itinerary,

00:52:42.300 | essentially, I mean, no, nothing is really that far to get to.

00:52:44.980 | And if you're going to use public transport, I mean, you

00:52:46.860 | could be on the in the 11th arrondissement where I live and

00:52:49.900 | still, you know, go to the Fondation Louis Vuitton, which

00:52:53.340 | is, you know, on the western extremities of the city. So it's

00:52:57.300 | not it's not impossible. But I think you need to know sort of

00:52:59.900 | what you what you're going to do the most of. Are you going to be

00:53:03.380 | going to a lot of museums? Are you really keen on being near

00:53:07.500 | the river that would dictate sort of what neighborhoods I

00:53:10.820 | would recommend to you. And once you've narrowed down what

00:53:13.500 | neighborhood you want to be in, and then you can go into sort

00:53:16.180 | of, okay, do you want an apartment, Airbnbs are getting

00:53:18.820 | way more expensive. At this point, some people think that

00:53:21.580 | hotels are back to being sort of the greatest value. And you can

00:53:24.460 | also get a lot of boutique hotels, which are really, you

00:53:27.460 | know, really charming, really interesting, great views, great

00:53:30.220 | services, and put you sort of in the heart of the action. I, you

00:53:35.420 | know, I know a lot of people who stay in the in the St Germain

00:53:39.220 | area, because it's like, you know, it's, it's close to a lot

00:53:42.300 | of things. It's good. It's near the river. It's very charming.

00:53:45.540 | It's very picturesque. But for the best food experiences, it's

00:53:50.500 | it's it's not there. So I think the person who's planning needs

00:53:55.940 | to think like, okay, am I the food traveler who really just

00:53:58.980 | wants to go to all the best restaurants, in which case

00:54:02.020 | there's a huge concentration of them in eastern Paris. Maybe

00:54:07.540 | it's best I stay sort of right bank over by bestie or near

00:54:12.660 | Oberkampf or, or in the Marais, at least, you know, because at

00:54:17.620 | least that is, you know, sort of getting you closer. If that's

00:54:20.980 | not your thing, and you really are like, I want to go antique

00:54:23.340 | shopping and go to museums and be in the pure center of the

00:54:28.180 | city, then I'd say yeah, you could stay in the first, you

00:54:30.900 | could stay in the sixth, you could stay in the fifth. But it

00:54:34.660 | might not be the most sort of like dynamic in the evening.

00:54:38.020 | Generally, I think that the seventh is one of the more

00:54:41.900 | boring places to stay. It's very sleepy. It's very residential.

00:54:45.820 | So yes, that's closer to the Eiffel Tower. But like, you

00:54:49.300 | don't need to seat in your backyard to have a, you know, a

00:54:52.900 | wonderful experience.

00:54:54.020 | I just realized we both have been to Paris, you've lived

00:54:56.620 | there 16 years, I've been there a bunch. For anyone who doesn't

00:54:59.340 | know, Paris is structured with about about how many like a

00:55:03.140 | snail, it's a snail 20 hour on these mall. Yes. Circle around

00:55:07.420 | from the center. So one being dead center going clockwise

00:55:10.540 | around 20. So just if you hear if you hear references to the

00:55:14.900 | seventh and the fifth, there, you could just search Paris map

00:55:18.260 | and you'll see all of these numbers highlighting the

00:55:20.220 | regions. Yes, it's true. I often forget that this is not, you

00:55:25.140 | know, the most common knowledge. I take that for granted. So good

00:55:29.420 | thing you reminded people. You know, at the end of the day, if

00:55:33.740 | you're like, I struggled to find a place and this is what I could

00:55:37.060 | find. And it was in the 15,000 D small, you'll be fine. And

00:55:39.700 | you'll probably have a really lovely experience. But it's not

00:55:42.820 | ideal, right? So there are just neighborhoods where you're going

00:55:45.860 | to get really like you're in the get the sense that you're in the

00:55:48.500 | heart of things that you're close to things that, you know,

00:55:51.340 | you could be it could be practical, given the type of

00:55:54.660 | trip you want to have.

00:55:55.820 | Is there a place that you'd put if you're like, I want to have,

00:55:59.060 | I want to feel like I'm staying somewhere where I'm surrounded

00:56:01.900 | by locals, I'm having a local experience. I'm close enough to

00:56:05.260 | things, but I'm okay trekking to the sites. I'm okay trekking to

00:56:08.340 | the best restaurants. But I just kind of want like a fun,

00:56:11.500 | interesting neighborhood with, you know, good cafe, I can go

00:56:15.060 | relax, but just feel like I'm not in the in the mix of it. Is

00:56:17.580 | there a place you'd you'd throw out?

00:56:19.100 | Yeah, I would say, my part of town, you know, you could you

00:56:23.740 | could you could stay near. It's funny, because we tend to think

00:56:28.660 | of things in terms of like their metro neighborhoods. So like

00:56:31.180 | Sharon, where there's a lot of good food for those listening

00:56:34.540 | who have been here and who might know Paris, it's not far from

00:56:36.980 | the restaurant septim, which is, you know, sort of like now,

00:56:39.860 | totally beloved. You could stay, you could stay in Belleville,

00:56:45.340 | which is hugely dynamic and super diverse and super

00:56:48.740 | interesting. And that gets you close to a park that I really

00:56:52.020 | love called the boot show. So either in Belleville, or further

00:56:56.300 | up into the 19,000 small would be would be wonderful. And you

00:57:00.500 | could easily get on the metro and get right back into the

00:57:02.780 | center of the center of things. And then on the flip side, if

00:57:06.180 | you want sort of a very calm, calm and quiet experience, then

00:57:12.260 | yeah, I would say the fifth and sixth, deeper in sort of closer

00:57:17.180 | to like Luxembourg gardens is probably going to be more of a

00:57:20.100 | tranquil, serene, relaxing kind of experience that isn't

00:57:25.420 | necessarily, you know, right in the middle, but will be lovely.

00:57:30.780 | And just to for everyone's awareness, I don't want to go

00:57:33.900 | in and say, here are the 50 sites, like we don't need to

00:57:36.260 | list off all the the tourist destinations that everyone can

00:57:39.140 | find in any guide or anything like that. But I would love to

00:57:42.260 | tap on what are what are a few things? Because like you said,

00:57:45.740 | we don't want to plan your whole trip for you. We want to just

00:57:47.580 | give you some inspiration. Are there a few things in Paris that

00:57:50.820 | you think aren't the obvious attractions or activities that

00:57:55.420 | someone should put on their list to check out? Maybe they're not

00:57:59.300 | good for everyone. But for some people worth sharing?

00:58:03.740 | Yeah, I think people who are overwhelmed by the Louvre,

00:58:07.500 | especially which I know I am. There are plenty of smaller

00:58:11.340 | museums. This is sort of the city of smaller museums, and

00:58:14.340 | also what you would call a house museum. So sort of the the

00:58:18.700 | private former private home of a very, you know, prolific writer

00:58:23.260 | artist. And there are several that I think are worth visiting

00:58:27.060 | the Musee de Montmartre, which is in the 18th. So if you're

00:58:31.520 | going to go up toward the Sackraker Cathedral, or

00:58:34.500 | Basilica in that neighborhood, so the 18th arrondissement,

00:58:38.900 | that's a fantastic, small, really intimate museum. And I

00:58:42.980 | believe they have a nice in inner garden. You also have the

00:58:46.540 | Gustave Moreau Museum. And similarly, it's so beautiful.

00:58:50.380 | It's it's quite small, really inexpensive entry fee, and and

00:58:54.780 | is focused on it was the former home of the of the artist

00:58:59.060 | Gustave Moreau. And so all of it is sort of rewritten, not

00:59:03.500 | recreated, but sort of frozen in time as though it's how he left

00:59:07.900 | it and his works are displayed. And there's this really iconic

00:59:10.420 | spiral staircase, it's really beautiful. And that's a much

00:59:13.500 | smaller, less overwhelming experience. And then for

00:59:16.580 | something bigger, but still, still completely worth visiting

00:59:20.500 | is the Carnavalet Museum, which is in the Marais, and it's the

00:59:23.580 | City of Paris Museum, essentially. And so you have all

00:59:27.300 | of the works, all of the exhibits are related to the

00:59:30.620 | history of Paris. And and that is just sort of a non negotiable

00:59:33.820 | for me, but it often doesn't make the list for people when

00:59:37.460 | they when they come and they're doing, you know, the Louvre, the

00:59:40.060 | Musee d'Orsay and some of the other big classics. And then

00:59:43.620 | finally, I would say if you're really into contemporary art,

00:59:46.780 | you could go the gallery route, which is a little bit more

00:59:49.740 | intimidating, and I think a little bit less sort of easy to

00:59:53.300 | navigate. Or you could go to the Pinot collection, which is again

00:59:57.980 | one of you know, one of France's billionaires who has a private

01:00:01.100 | institution, but it's in a really spectacular building

01:00:04.380 | quite in the center of city, not not far from the river. That's a

01:00:08.700 | that's a that's a very unique experience.

01:00:10.660 | Yeah, we we because we had kids skipped out on all of the art.

01:00:14.860 | So I have nothing to add here. But the Cité des Sciences

01:00:18.660 | Museum. Oh, for kids. Yeah, that's great. Absolutely. Like,

01:00:22.460 | you know, I wish our kids nap schedule allowed us to be there

01:00:24.900 | longer, but I will give it a plug there. It might be the best

01:00:28.540 | kids science museum I've ever been to, which I can't say I've

01:00:31.900 | been to a lot, but it was awesome. The park around it was

01:00:35.180 | awesome. Easy to get to. So that's my one plug.

01:00:38.780 | That's a good plug. And also, I would say, another spot that's

01:00:42.780 | also very good for adults and kids is the it's called the

01:00:47.180 | Musée de la chasse et la nature. It's the hunting the

01:00:49.980 | nature and hunting museum, which sounds like kind of like it

01:00:52.500 | could be a little bit grim. But actually, it's super well done.

01:00:55.860 | It's beautiful. And for kids who are like interested in seeing

01:00:59.820 | animals and, you know, paintings of animals in their in the

01:01:03.820 | natural environment, that's a good choice or the Natural

01:01:06.180 | History Museum, which is in the Jardin des Plantes, which is one

01:01:09.380 | of the gardens and there you'll have like, you know, dinosaur

01:01:11.700 | bones and, and fossils and all sorts of stuff that's like

01:01:15.700 | really good for for kids.

01:01:17.460 | Any other kind of like unique, weird tour kind of stuff,

01:01:22.020 | whether it's like at a market or or is that catacombs that or is

01:01:25.540 | that just overrated or stuff in that vein? That's maybe not not

01:01:29.260 | the museums that we're kind of typically told about, but but

01:01:32.500 | kind of cool, maybe other other experiences.

01:01:35.700 | I do think the catacombs is a really unique experience. You

01:01:38.940 | really have to be someone who's not afraid of closed quarters

01:01:43.980 | and closed spaces. I think you also sort of have to plan ahead

01:01:47.860 | because I know that if you go too late in the afternoon, you

01:01:50.700 | may hit a point where they're not actually letting anyone in

01:01:54.540 | anymore. And so you just sort of waited in line. It's very cool,

01:01:58.780 | though. I mean, I think that's something you're not going to

01:02:00.540 | get in a whole lot of cities, other cities. And then beyond

01:02:05.420 | that, I think there's some sort of unusual tours you can you can

01:02:09.620 | get on that are sort of like, taking you through a specific

01:02:13.540 | history. So it might be like, you know, a Paris under the

01:02:17.780 | occupation or something like a women, the women of Paris tour.

01:02:24.100 | So there are things that are sort of not necessarily super

01:02:27.260 | unusual, but just not your general overview kind of

01:02:31.580 | experiences that that are, you know, that are worth looking

01:02:35.100 | into.

01:02:35.460 | And where where do these good experiences exist? Is Airbnb

01:02:40.060 | experiences a place to find them? Is there a better local

01:02:42.820 | site? Is there a, you know, a, I don't know, a blog that talks

01:02:46.340 | about things?

01:02:46.980 | No, that's a very good question. I would say, Airbnb experiences,

01:02:51.460 | I think are only going to get you so far, they might be okay.

01:02:54.100 | But I think they I, for one thing, the problem is that, you

01:03:00.900 | know, people don't spend a lot on those. And so you sort of get

01:03:04.260 | what you pay for. I think that there are a couple of things you

01:03:07.820 | can do if you're interested in in, you know, wine tastings,

01:03:10.820 | there are a couple of outlets of sort of let me start again. If

01:03:17.940 | you're really into wine tastings, for example, there are

01:03:19.900 | certain specialists, for example, certain spaces,

01:03:22.460 | there's the cave du Louvre, there's cavewoman wines, and she

01:03:25.660 | runs different events in her in her wine shop. I think there,

01:03:29.940 | you know, you sort of have to be specific when you're looking.

01:03:32.020 | But if you're looking for a service that has multiple types

01:03:35.420 | of tours, or experiences, I think it's good to look at, for

01:03:38.540 | example, Context Travel, which is a company that runs

01:03:42.260 | experiences and tours in a variety of different cities in

01:03:45.180 | the world and have very good docents and very good themes.

01:03:48.780 | And, you know, I think in general, the quality of the

01:03:52.300 | experience is very high. In Paris, specifically, you also

01:03:55.980 | have Paris by mouth, which are obviously as the name suggests,

01:03:59.700 | food, food focused tours, and then there are a bunch of

01:04:01.740 | independent smaller run kind of experiences in food. I mean,

01:04:08.180 | food is really the the area where we're like, bursting at

01:04:10.980 | the seams with options. But, but I would say, you know, either

01:04:16.580 | you get recommendations from, let's say, like a travel

01:04:18.700 | planner, who has connections with certain key guides, or, or,

01:04:24.780 | you know, I for one, do a couple of tours upon requests that are

01:04:28.540 | based on my book. So but I don't do this full time. So it's sort

01:04:31.180 | of like an upon request thing. If you're looking for something

01:04:33.900 | you can sort of jump on at last minute, you need to sort of find

01:04:38.500 | bigger companies get your guide also has some that I think are

01:04:42.060 | going to be a little bit more qualitative than than an Airbnb

01:04:47.180 | experience. Food keeps coming up as a theme. So I'll just ask

01:04:50.220 | you to throw out any places you love that people should just

01:04:53.420 | check out. I know, I know there's an unlimited number of

01:04:55.660 | places you haven't been to them all. But I bet. I bet you have

01:04:58.860 | some places where you're like, here's some some spots that I'd

01:05:01.860 | recommend eating at. And I know people love getting the kind of

01:05:06.300 | local recommendation. So yeah, I'll give you a couple. Actually

01:05:11.060 | in the seventh hour on the small, which I know I kind of

01:05:12.900 | disparaged earlier, but like the key place is let me show. And

01:05:17.460 | that is just truly excellent, consistently. You know, the

01:05:23.860 | chef owner has been doing it for nearly 20 years. It has an

01:05:28.660 | incredible vibe. The portions are large there. It's excellent,

01:05:34.060 | excellent, excellent food. A bits. There's a bit of a

01:05:37.140 | southwestern French inflection. Just just really spectacular.

01:05:42.420 | Definitely need to book ahead. The other experience I would say

01:05:45.620 | is going into the market these on phone Rouge, which is the

01:05:48.300 | oldest covered market in Paris, and hitting up some of those

01:05:51.020 | stands. But if you want something that's like open all

01:05:53.740 | day nonstop. There's a stand in particular in the market called

01:05:58.020 | les enfants du marché. And it's seafood, good meats, excellent

01:06:05.580 | natural wine, like there's a Japanese chef, but it's all

01:06:08.940 | French product. It's an incredible vibe. There's a great

01:06:12.220 | playlist. And they really run from like noon until the market

01:06:16.900 | closes. So, you know, if you stumble in at 4pm, you know, you

01:06:20.540 | can at least have something to eat. And it may be the only

01:06:22.940 | stand open, but it'll be super fun. And you know, there's like

01:06:25.780 | kind of a young, really, really exciting vibe there. And the

01:06:29.300 | food, the quality of the food is just spectacular.

01:06:31.700 | And and there is an excellent park for children right outside.

01:06:35.460 | Like one or two blocks away. You're right, which we went to.

01:06:39.940 | And but my advice to parents in the parks, don't be alarmed if

01:06:44.180 | the park closes very promptly and very quickly. I think in the

01:06:48.500 | US, it's kind of like at night people leave. In France, I've

01:06:51.180 | had there was a whistle. And and at the exact moment the park

01:06:54.900 | closed within maybe one to two minutes, the entire park had

01:06:59.140 | vacated, the doors had been locked, and everyone was gone.

01:07:01.220 | And I was caught off guard thinking, well, the sun's still

01:07:04.100 | out, we could just keep playing. It was like, when the park

01:07:06.500 | closes, you leave. But that park is right next to that market and

01:07:10.500 | was excellent.

01:07:11.060 | Yeah, the Carol do Tom and there's a there's like a big

01:07:14.300 | cultural center over there, too. So that that's a great area to

01:07:17.300 | walk around in general. But yeah, I think it's kind of like

01:07:20.500 | the guards are like, I got my shift is over. I want to go

01:07:23.700 | home. Get out of the park. I would say also. So Mia is a

01:07:32.740 | great place. In St. Germain trying to give you some options

01:07:36.340 | here geographically is a is a great sort of modern modern

01:07:42.020 | bistro. That's really lovely. And then, oh boy, there's like

01:07:47.340 | coffee shops everywhere, like good quality coffee shops, you

01:07:50.940 | do need to just if that's something that's important to

01:07:52.980 | you, it's something that's important to me, you have to

01:07:54.740 | make sure you have the list because if you go into any old

01:07:57.140 | corner cafe, you'll probably have a really disgusting cup of

01:07:59.740 | coffee.

01:08:01.700 | Is that list on your guide or where?

01:08:03.700 | No, it's a separate guide I am currently working on. But a lot

01:08:07.700 | of it is also on my my Instagram page, for example. And in my

01:08:10.940 | first book, there's a whole chapter on quality quality

01:08:14.460 | coffee and the difference between cafe culture and coffee

01:08:17.020 | culture. So if you want to sort of get the the foundation for

01:08:20.900 | why it's historically been bad, that gives you a nice primer.

01:08:24.220 | But yeah, I think the market the market is a really great place

01:08:27.540 | because also it'll give you lots of options. That's that's the

01:08:31.500 | covered market. And then there are the pop up markets that are

01:08:33.660 | several times a week in different neighborhoods.

01:08:35.540 | Definitely look, look into that. I mean, you can even Google open

01:08:39.380 | air food markets in Paris. And you know, it's a great place to

01:08:43.700 | go get a bunch of ingredients and cheeses and go to a park and

01:08:48.500 | have a picnic.

01:08:49.140 | Love that. Any What about people that are looking for some baked

01:08:53.340 | goods? Any suggestions? Or a couple bakeries?

01:08:57.020 | I cannot I literally am physically incapable of giving

01:09:00.300 | just a couple like it's just tremendous. I mean, if there's

01:09:04.020 | one that I can recommend that is has several locations that might

01:09:08.220 | be easy for people. Pierre Hermé is the is the you know, the

01:09:12.580 | star, he's been called the Picasso of pastry. And so

01:09:15.740 | obviously, he has like, multiple locations. And and his stuff is

01:09:20.820 | his stuff is incredible. But you know, I would also say, you

01:09:25.340 | know, some of the neighborhood bakeries are really where the

01:09:29.060 | the huge talent is these days. And one of my favorites is

01:09:32.020 | utopi. I mean, we say utopi, but it's spelled like utopia. But

01:09:36.820 | with an E at the end,

01:09:37.820 | is it near open door or opened? No, there's an open comp. I

01:09:43.340 | can't remember.

01:09:43.740 | Overcome. Yes, over. Yes, yes. That's exactly in your word.

01:09:47.340 | Yes, we tried to go there. It was like the line was

01:09:49.860 | ridiculous. Yeah, the line. I mean, that'll tell you something

01:09:52.180 | if you go on a Sunday morning, forget it, you're going to be

01:09:53.980 | waiting in a line. But the the pastries are excellent. I would

01:09:57.260 | say mamish is another one. They have a location in the 10th and

01:10:00.820 | one in the ninth. I want this small and it's really, really

01:10:04.700 | excellent. And then for the rest, I mean, you just got to

01:10:08.340 | connect with me and you know, get my list.

01:10:10.740 | Yeah, definitely connect with Lindsay, getting around subway,

01:10:15.340 | I found easy, there's there's no real need to do anything else.

01:10:18.500 | I don't think we ever took a taxi or an Uber or anything at

01:10:21.980 | all. We took the train from the airport. Any other things people

01:10:27.220 | should think about when it comes to transportation?

01:10:29.020 | Um, be mindful of the e scooters, they will be phased

01:10:34.620 | out. However, at the end of August, because the city voted

01:10:37.660 | to get rid of them. They were a bit of a problem. Just like the

01:10:43.180 | lack of enforcement of rules is a problem. But anyway, that's

01:10:45.700 | that's for another conversation. So yeah, I would say you just

01:10:48.740 | while they're still sort of operating, you need to be

01:10:50.580 | mindful when you're walking around because they zip and come

01:10:54.780 | out of nowhere. But you really can either walk everywhere or

01:10:58.020 | take the metro. And, you know, if you're if you're someone,

01:11:01.060 | rarely do I encounter people who are like, I love the bus, I'm

01:11:04.460 | going to try to figure out the bus, the bus is like not very

01:11:06.820 | efficient, only because they're, there's a lot of construction in

01:11:11.860 | the city. And so even though they have their own lane,

01:11:13.620 | they're often delayed. And they don't, they don't run as

01:11:17.420 | frequently as the metro. So you're going to spend a lot more

01:11:19.300 | time waiting around. But walk, metro, and if you're really

01:11:24.100 | courageous, you can take one of the, you know, the bikes, the

01:11:27.660 | city bike share program or the like Uber jump things. They're

01:11:32.660 | sort of all over the place. But there's really very little need

01:11:36.420 | to take a cab unless you're like stumbling home drunk after a

01:11:41.420 | great meal. But even then the metro is probably still

01:11:43.980 | operating.

01:11:44.740 | We didn't talk actually about about drinking and nightlife.

01:11:48.100 | What's the the vibe like for bars, you know, that kind of

01:11:52.580 | stuff after dinner?

01:11:54.380 | I mean, cocktails are still very much a fixture of the of the of

01:11:59.460 | the dining and nightlife landscape. I would say wine bars

01:12:03.100 | also are sort of treated almost as, as destinations like

01:12:08.180 | cocktail bars. And so especially if you're into certain types of

01:12:11.660 | wine, like natural wine or organic wine, there's like, you

01:12:14.700 | know, a slew of those kinds of bars. And even hotel bars, I

01:12:19.020 | mean, they they definitely are still the more expensive type of

01:12:21.820 | experience. But there are some that are still very iconic,

01:12:24.780 | whether it's, you know, the Hemingway bar at the Ritz, or

01:12:29.460 | the Ambassador in the the Creon Hotel at Place de la Concorde. I

01:12:34.300 | mean, these are places that are just so sumptuous in terms of

01:12:37.180 | their interiors that like, if you really want that vibe, and

01:12:40.140 | you don't mind spending maybe 25 euros on a cocktail, like go

01:12:43.060 | there. Otherwise, there's really no need to spend a whole lot of

01:12:46.260 | money. And also, if you're into beer, there are some craft beer

01:12:49.420 | bars, too. So you sort of we have we have all of the things.

01:12:52.740 | You can stay out late, but not too late, because the city

01:12:55.820 | basically all these all these places close, I think around one

01:12:59.380 | o'clock.

01:12:59.860 | And and you know, you mentioned the footing, but where would you

01:13:03.100 | find a good cocktail bar? Like, where would you go to find that?

01:13:07.100 | Is it just I mean, Google Maps ratings, I find have become more

01:13:10.420 | and more reliable. But is that is that a source or what would

01:13:13.500 | Google ratings, but actually the footing also lists cocktail

01:13:16.340 | bars. So you've got both restaurants and cocktails. And

01:13:19.260 | then there's some specialists. There's Forrest Collins, who has

01:13:23.460 | a website and blog. I think her her nickname is 52 martinis. But

01:13:28.540 | her her her podcast is has a different name. But essentially,

01:13:33.220 | if you if you Google 52, martinis and Paris cocktails,

01:13:36.420 | you'll sort of get her expert list. And she sort of made that

01:13:39.300 | her, her niche here. But but for a more general view, the footing

01:13:44.980 | has a great list.

01:13:46.100 | One thing that I've done in Paris and all of France is you

01:13:49.980 | can also get a bottle of wine, get some cheese gets a bit like

01:13:53.540 | just sit in a park. So maybe talk about how to craft what

01:13:57.220 | would you do to craft just like a nice one of those experiences

01:14:00.340 | that maybe doesn't need a restaurant.

01:14:01.940 | That's a that's a great, a great option that honestly, I do on

01:14:07.500 | the regular, especially as we're getting into these. As you and I

01:14:11.980 | were talking about when we first jumped on on the chat, it was,

01:14:15.220 | you know, I was I was commenting on how it is, you know, set

01:14:17.900 | almost 730 here and it's still bright and light and in the

01:14:21.700 | heart of summer, you can go to the Canal Saint Martin or by the

01:14:24.460 | river and you know, you'll have light until well after 10pm. So

01:14:28.660 | that makes it perfect for a picnic. But I would say, avoid

01:14:31.660 | the like student thing, which is going to like the supermarket

01:14:36.060 | and buying a supermarket bottle of wine, like go to go to a wine

01:14:39.300 | cellar or wine shop, make it a special thing. Figure out what

01:14:44.180 | region or what, you know, what kind of wine you want to drink

01:14:46.900 | red, white, orange, sparkling, whatever. Figure out the region

01:14:52.940 | and then maybe ask the the the wine expert what they recommend

01:14:57.860 | pairing with it, what kinds of cheeses then go to the

01:14:59.980 | cheesemonger. I mean, so yeah, you can't do this too late at

01:15:02.140 | night, because obviously the shops close. But if you plan for

01:15:06.020 | it, you can really get some, you know, tremendous products and

01:15:08.980 | then sit outside and then see other people, mostly locals

01:15:12.500 | doing the same thing.

01:15:13.860 | Love that it actually reminded me I had a good friend who gave

01:15:17.620 | me a couple recommendations from his recent trip. He said on the

01:15:21.020 | cheese side, from Audrey Lauren Dubois is like, oh, yeah, the

01:15:25.780 | place to a couple other random ones. He suggested were the

01:15:28.860 | Paris Philharmonic or Philharmonic. He had to go out.

01:15:32.860 | Yeah, to go out. These are all all a bit across the board. But

01:15:36.340 | I was like, it just made me think to look it up. And the

01:15:38.940 | other is there's a street artist named invader, which has these

01:15:41.940 | great space invader. Yeah. And there's a cool app called flash

01:15:46.460 | invaders, where you can kind of collect all of them all over

01:15:49.900 | there all over France, like 1000s and 1000s over 1000 of

01:15:54.100 | these kind of space invader piece of art just in Paris. And

01:15:57.260 | he said, you know, not only was it fun for him, but it was super

01:15:59.940 | fun for his kids to have a thing to like, go around Paris and

01:16:04.020 | collect and earn some points. And it kind of made the

01:16:06.500 | experience of wandering around the city, which might often make

01:16:10.140 | children kind of bored, it got them very excited. And so those

01:16:14.100 | were his three tips.

01:16:15.220 | It keeps them very engaged, but also the adults because I have

01:16:18.500 | my husband does flash, does the app and plays the game. And, and

01:16:24.100 | I have several friends that do this. And then those with kids

01:16:27.340 | definitely do it with their kids. And so it's sort of like

01:16:29.140 | fun for everyone. And the incentive is just to like gain a

01:16:31.540 | lot of points and then beat each other, or just be ranked higher

01:16:34.700 | than one another. But you know, what's interesting about it is

01:16:37.580 | in places like Versailles, or Fontainebleau, which have royal

01:16:42.060 | heritage, the mosaic tiles in the invaders themselves, or the,

01:16:48.100 | you know, whatever they're called, are very clever. I mean,

01:16:52.260 | they're related to the place in many in many instances,

01:16:55.380 | especially in like smaller towns. So you'll have like, I

01:16:58.940 | think there's one of Napoleon somewhere. And so so it does

01:17:03.220 | create also sort of like semi educational, but also it's fun.

01:17:06.500 | Yeah, no, that's one thing where I was like, I really missed out

01:17:09.300 | on that on my trip. He had one more recommendation, which is

01:17:11.900 | kind of in line with what you just mentioned with Versailles,

01:17:13.900 | which is, we talked about the broader regions of France, we

01:17:16.260 | talked about Paris, if someone's in Paris, and they're looking to

01:17:19.740 | go somewhere, but not too far. Are there some kind of day

01:17:23.300 | trips, or maybe overnight trips that you'd say someone should

01:17:25.860 | tack on? And maybe that's how we'll leave people today?

01:17:28.380 | Yeah, I mean, Versailles is definitely the common one, but

01:17:32.420 | it's very overwhelming. And depending on when you go, it

01:17:34.700 | might be literally like everyone and their mother and their

01:17:37.340 | grandmother is there. And it can feel I know, it feels very dense

01:17:40.580 | and overwhelming. But Fontainebleau is the other one

01:17:44.500 | that I would recommend because you get the chateau, you get the

01:17:47.580 | connection to, you know, it used to be the hunting lodge. I mean,

01:17:53.300 | lodge is a is a small word for what what it actually is, which

01:17:56.740 | is like essentially a palace, but it's where the kings would

01:17:59.980 | all go to when they were hunting and sort of a getaway. And it's

01:18:04.660 | attached to this really lovely city, a town called Fontainebleau

01:18:08.100 | and you can have a meal, you can spend the night, you can go to

01:18:10.460 | the go to see the chateau. And then if you're an outdoorsy

01:18:13.140 | person, you can go to the forest, which is attached, like,

01:18:16.060 | you know, within walking distance or a quick a quick

01:18:19.820 | ride, which so it's called the Fontainebleau forest, and it is

01:18:24.180 | an internationally renowned destination for bouldering. So

01:18:28.460 | like I said, my husband's a boulder and rock climber. This

01:18:31.100 | has been ever since I've known him the place he goes almost

01:18:33.740 | every weekend, but you you come across people who just want to

01:18:36.900 | hike. You can go walk around and pick a spot and then picnic. It

01:18:42.220 | really is a wonderful outdoor place. So I would say for a day

01:18:45.900 | trip or an overnight, think about Fontainebleau.

01:18:48.740 | Awesome. The other one, my friend suggested was Puy de Fou.

01:18:52.900 | For wine.

01:18:54.780 | Well, no, he said it was kind of like a

01:18:57.740 | Oh, the amusement park.

01:18:59.380 | There's this amusement park that he enjoyed as a as an adult and

01:19:03.300 | thought was super interesting. Children enjoyed and was like,

01:19:05.900 | this was the highlight. This was for him. It was the day trip

01:19:09.700 | highlight of the entire trip. And that's so interesting. It's

01:19:12.500 | thought it was the most amazing thing they've ever done. And

01:19:14.420 | he's like, and I loved it, too. I don't know if you've been

01:19:16.500 | there. Well, no, I don't have any first day.

01:19:18.220 | And I also don't have kids. So like my that I it's not like my

01:19:21.860 | first instinct to go to a place like that. But that's very good

01:19:26.260 | to know. And I would say that's a much better idea than going to

01:19:28.540 | Disney, which is like very underwhelming when you've when

01:19:32.220 | or if you've experienced Disney in the US. So skip Disney.

01:19:37.020 | Yeah, but Puy de Fou, I'm like, I've looked at the website and

01:19:39.860 | there's like people jumping in fire. And he described it as

01:19:43.340 | like, a mix of a show and a carnival and a renaissance

01:19:47.500 | fair. Yeah, with excellent food, which just kind of goes back to

01:19:52.260 | France is not going to have their own French amusement park

01:19:54.900 | with bad food. And he I don't know, he just had wonderful

01:19:58.420 | things to say about it. So Ethan, thank you. Thank you for

01:20:01.220 | that tip and others. And that and then last thing, as people

01:20:05.460 | are getting around. We said Metro in Paris, is it train? Is

01:20:09.620 | it flights? How do you think about just kind of we, if people

01:20:12.540 | go back to the beginning of this and think, I'm going to add one

01:20:14.620 | or two regions, I'm going to do a day trip to Fontainebleau. Is

01:20:18.300 | it all train? Or how do you think people should think

01:20:20.460 | logistically about getting around?

01:20:21.940 | I think that if you're gonna if you're gonna go somewhere and

01:20:24.900 | then be trying to see a lot of things in another region, you

01:20:29.980 | can get there by train. Most likely, I mean, they're, to be

01:20:34.980 | honest, you could do everything by train, it just might take you

01:20:37.380 | a while. So places that are not on the high speed rail line, you

01:20:42.820 | can still access by train. But so imagine, let's say you're

01:20:46.660 | going to spend a whole week in Normandy, for example, I would

01:20:50.180 | say you could get there by train, but then you want to be

01:20:52.500 | able to pick up a car. And so that might not make a lot of

01:20:54.740 | sense, given where maybe rental car rental spots are. So you

01:20:59.300 | know, from a place like Paris, you could rent a car and drive

01:21:01.340 | to Normandy or drive to some of these places if you plan on

01:21:03.740 | trying to discover a lot of things. The Loire Valley is a

01:21:08.100 | place where you could actually do a like a bike trip, and

01:21:11.140 | discover the region entirely by bike because they have something

01:21:14.500 | like I don't know if it's like 800 miles of bike paths in this

01:21:18.060 | in the entire region. So it's sort of set up for that kind of

01:21:21.540 | experience. And if you're going in to Provence, and you're not

01:21:26.060 | going to be staying in cities, and you're going to be going

01:21:28.900 | into villages and trying to drive around and see as much as

01:21:31.580 | you can see, you will need a car. But there, I'd say you

01:21:34.700 | could take a train from Paris, and then rent a car when you get

01:21:37.860 | down there near the train stations like Avignon, for

01:21:40.460 | example, or Aix-en-Provence or Marseille, and you can rent a

01:21:44.500 | car and then go from there. The places where people tend to fly

01:21:48.780 | simply because it, you know, it can be faster or more direct is

01:21:52.820 | to like to Nice, to Biarritz and the western the southwestern

01:21:58.700 | coast. But there are very few places. You know, if you're, if

01:22:03.740 | you're not in any rush, and you like a long train ride, use the

01:22:06.860 | train system.

01:22:07.580 | This has been so awesome. You know, so I feel like we didn't

01:22:11.140 | even come close to tapping all of your knowledge. But you share

01:22:15.020 | a lot on social, you have a digital restaurant guide, we're

01:22:17.700 | going to link to it in the show notes. You've even written

01:22:20.260 | books, if you want to listen, you know, so there's a lot of

01:22:23.060 | stuff you've done, but where can people find all of it? And can

01:22:27.180 | they reach out and ask questions?

01:22:28.460 | Absolutely. So I think the easiest is probably just to find

01:22:31.380 | me on at Lindsey Tramuta calm, because then you can find my

01:22:34.380 | socials, you can find, you know, my newsletter, sign up, you can

01:22:37.900 | find my podcast, sign up, you can do it, find all the things

01:22:40.340 | you can find me from there. And I'd be I'd be happy to chat.

01:22:43.980 | Any parting advice for someone thinking about a trip to France

01:22:47.460 | before we before we sign off?

01:22:49.540 | The only thing I would say is do a little bit of research, don't

01:22:52.900 | just come and be like, I'm going to wing everything, because I

01:22:55.500 | think that's where people get disappointed, especially when it

01:22:58.060 | comes with food, do a little bit of planning, and then leave the

01:23:01.020 | rest up to sort of, you know, whatever, whatever you feel like

01:23:05.300 | doing, whatever the mood into, you know, leads you to choose,

01:23:09.220 | but there is a minimum amount of planning that's really necessary

01:23:12.380 | to ensure you'll have the experience you deserve to have.

01:23:15.180 | I look forward to doing that planning for the next trip. Thank

01:23:18.460 | you so much for being here. Thanks, Chris. I really enjoyed

01:23:20.940 | it.

01:23:21.440 | A bientot!

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