you're trying to help someone think about constructing their their kind of two week itinerary to France, how would you think about breaking it out? And, you know, of all the places you just mentioned, are there some highlights you think are great for a first trip? Well, you know, the the feedback I get from people is that, you know, if they fly directly into Paris, it makes sense to sort of start there, get acclimated, take your time, you know, it's a great place to just sort of walk around.

So if you're if you're heavily jet lagged, and you're sort of gearing up for maybe even a more active trip in the next places you're going, it's good to sort of ease in with Paris. And you know, if you're if it's a lot easier to adjust, if you know, all you have to do is walk out your apartment or hotel door and you know, stumble upon a restaurant, you don't have to go very far, in other words, to sort of get yourself get yourself going when you arrive.

So I would say spending a handful of days, at least three or at least four days in Paris would be ideal, to be honest, before making making your way elsewhere. And I think for a first time visitor, it makes it honestly makes sense to do one of two things going to Normandy because of the sort of cultural awareness that exists, or skipping that and going directly to the south of France, because you know, that's sort of one of the other iconic experiences, and something that is so very different from the Parisian experience.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of all the hacks show about upgrading your life, money and travel. One of the areas I love to optimize is travel. And today we're going to talk about everything you need to know for a trip to France, the world's most popular tourist destination.

We'll dig into some unique off the beaten path spots in Paris, talk about how to have lunch like a local and run through all the top regions to visit. I've been to France about five times now, but I couldn't think of a better guest to join me than Lindsay Tramuta, who's been living there since 2006.

She's a culture and travel journalist who's written for the New York Times, eater food and wine, Condé Nast, traveler and more. She's also written a bunch of books on Paris, including the new Paris and the new Parisienne, including a restaurant guide, and even has her own podcast called the new Paris podcast.

So whether you're thinking about your first trip to France, or you already know you'll be back there, I think you'll love this episode. So let's jump in. Oh, and don't forget, if you're enjoying this, please hit the thumbs up and the subscribe button. It would really help this channel.

Thanks so much. Lindsay, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I am excited. France is one of the most popular not not one. It is the most popular tourist destination in the world. I expect most people listening have either been considered going or even have a trip on the horizon.

So I'm going to start us off. I have two questions for you. One, why do you think France is number one? And what do you think the 100 million people who come each year might be missing when they go? That's a very good starter question. I think the sort of enduring popularity has to do with the way France continues to enter popular culture.

So whether it's through through books, through film, through television shows, I mean, generations of this sort of myth making and and fantasy building about France as a destination, really goes far deeper than a lot of other cultures. Also, I think the really goes far deeper than a lot of other cultures.

Also, you have to remember the long relationship between the US if we're obviously France is a global destination. But when we think about how much it appeals to Americans in particular, you know, that relates to the long history between the two countries. And, you know, essentially, France was one of America's first allies.

And so I think all of that combined creates a sort of attachment, and a fantasy for people even who, you know, might be armchair travelers, but who know that the one day that they do, you know, sort of get on the road and are able to come to Europe, this is probably going to be one of the first places they come.

And I would say Italy probably has some of this appeal as well, because of the way, you know, especially the Italian diaspora, having such, such reach around the world. But actually, the one thing I did come across in some of the research I've done over the years is that because France doesn't have a huge immigrant community in the United States, for example, there's, there's a bit more mystery involved.

And so I think that plays a role as well. There's a there's a sort of mystery for the average person as to well, what is France really like, you know, we've seen this, we've, we've seen the, the films, we've heard the stories, what is it really like, and I think that is a compelling draw.

As for what people are missing. Really, if you if you if you're focused entirely on a bucket list, that's already, I think, going to lead you down a direction of being potentially disappointed. I mean, I think the kind of version of travel that I like to promote and that I, you know, that I engage in myself is really trying to see some of the historic things, but then quickly add in whatever a local might do.

And I know that sounds sort of like, yeah, how local can you really get? But I think if you're researching with, you're researching your trip, in the right places and listening to the right people, you'll get that more local experience. Because ultimately, I want to know where, you know, yeah, where the people who are like me in Paris go when they're in, you know, Rome or, or Sydney or Tokyo.

And I, I think that from from my interactions with people who have traveled heavily, if you try to do too much, also, on a first trip, or on any trip to Paris, or to the rest of France, I think you'll get easily overwhelmed, and then kind of bogged down by all of the things you saw and almost incapable of, of remembering sort of what the highlights were.

So I think it's about going slower, and figuring out what the perfect blend is between, you know, sort of marquee sites and landmarks and experiences, and then those that are maybe a little bit less expected and more atypical. I love that. I've actually gotten, I think, more feedback from listeners that the thing they want.

And, you know, we were connected by Brandon Presser, who we've had two episodes with, and we actually talked about planning a trip. So you don't know this yet. I'm springing this on you. But it's like, every time we do one of these episodes, I was like, what if after we actually organize an amazing trip together for people in the community to potentially go to this place and do some of these things.

And the feedback I got was that everyone loved the idea of traveling slash like, feeling like a local experience. Like that is the thing that I think this audience resonates with. So you I'm so glad you're here because you you value that greatly. Absolutely. And I see I see the travelers who are sort of like, Oh, yeah, I mean, we, even the way they frame the conversation around what they've done, it's, we did this, this city, we did that museum, it's like, are you doing what I mean, like, are you just checking it off a list?

Or are you experiencing it? And so I think those words are very important to the way we sort of dismiss like, yeah, been there done that I think that's a very reductive way of looking at traveling to any kind of destination. Yeah, so we're gonna get into a lot of that stuff.

And I'm very excited. So but first off, you know, for people who haven't experienced France, whether that means they've never been or whether they did the kind of thing, which I'm certainly guilty of early in my life of, let's go to a city, let's try to do it in two days.

Let's go to the like, top five sites bouncing, like, I've had that trip. I don't love that trip anymore. But I've certainly been there. So maybe give some highlights. What what do you think makes a trip to France so much different than other places in the world, whether it's people or food or culture, like, you know, kind of get get people a little bit, a little bit wet their appetite for for where we're going to go with this conversation?

Well, you know, what I think is even astounding to me as someone who's lived here for 16 years is how each region really feels so different. So yes, you're in the same country, there's this, you know, a semblance of shared values, of course, across the country. And, you know, but beyond that, geographically, gastronomically, in, in so many other ways, culturally, each region really feels like it could be it's almost its own country.

And but the great thing is that it is so easy to get around here, through trains. Obviously, there's most of everything you want to see and do can be accessed either on by train or by by a quick flight. And, and that's kind of a huge gift, especially when you you know, obviously, you're in the US, I grew up in the US, and everything is such an ordeal.

It's such a, it's such an expense. It takes ages to get most places. And then once you're there, you kind of are also like, I got to maximize my time here. And I think the ability to, to engage in like much slower travel is all the more possible here.

So I would say one of the compelling reasons I think one of the gifts of France really is that you can start in the north and go east, west or straight to the south. And every experience you have is going to feel slightly different because they're really their own, you know, their own little mini cultures and microcultures.

And, and so that's why, you know, one of the things that sort of occurred to me through COVID, when I couldn't go very far, was just how lucky I was to have all of this on my doorstep, you know, and in that case, you know, what's taking less trains, but I would get in the, in the car with my husband, and we would go on more road trips.

And I think if you're someone who also likes to, you know, the idea of renting a car and driving across France, that's also possible. And, you know, to give you an example, my husband just went on a rock climbing trip. I mean, he's, he's away right now and drove six hours, arrives, and he's already, you know, already got in a session last night after, you know, a six hour car ride.

And I mean, it just, obviously, the size of the country allows you to do that. But when you live here, whether you live here, or you're just visiting, I mean, that that is something that means you can actually do quite a lot and have very different experiences in one trip.

Yeah, the one new parable I adhere to on any trip is travel like you're coming back for sure. Because I feel like early on my idea was gosh, there's so many places in the world to go to. Every time I go somewhere, I have to act as if I'm never coming back.

Like I literally 180 my perspective of make sure I do everything cram it all in because I might not be back to let's just assume I'm absolutely coming back and have a good experience and, and so got the right mindset. Yeah. And culture is is an interesting one, because I think it's it's not something that easily fits on a checklist.

But it's something that when you really experience it, it's so memorable. So I had a conversation with Rolf Potts, who wrote a book called vagabonding. And I can't remember if this was in the pre talk or in the episode, but he said he was talking to someone who went to France and was so frustrated that all they wanted to do was they wanted to experience the culture of France.

And they went to a cafe, and they sat out on the sidewalk, people were walking by. And two hours later, they still hadn't been able to eat and get their bill. And they were so frustrated, because all they wanted to do was leave the cafe to go experience the culture of France.

And he's like, you just missed it. Like sitting at a cafe, taking two hours to eat your lunch is literally experiencing the culture of this country. Yet you were so focused on trying to go do things. So my new thing is relax, slow down, experience what's there. Don't plan too much.

Absolutely. I mean, also, that's how you, you know, when you're when you're racing to get to the next, I don't know, museum visit, or food tour, or whatever, that's when you miss some of the most memorable moments, also, because of the people you're going to be exposed to, whether it's the person sitting at the table next to you, or sort of the, you know, the strangers walking by, but I mean, and also France has the idea of the flaneur.

So someone who strolls aimlessly, really with no destination, and it and strolling is is almost an inadequate word for the idea, because it truly means that you are at, you are one at one with the with the with, with the sidewalk with with the city with the, the natural motion of the city, you're, you're seeing things you don't usually see, whether it's like, you know, the guy managing the Ferris wheel in one of the parks to someone selling chestnuts on the, you know, at the metro exit, but like, you're fine, your eyes are open.

And because you're not trying to get anywhere, you're seeing the city in a way or city or place or wherever, in a way, you don't usually see it. So this idea of the flaneur is something that I think is very, is naturally appealing to travelers, if if they're prepared to sort of set the bucket list aside, set the checklist aside and just be and so if it means you miss one of the museums, like, you'll be fine.

I think you'll still get a good sense of both what this place is and how rich it is. Yeah. Okay. So here's my thought. Let's talk high level first just about generally structuring a trip because it's a big country. If someone has limited time, they can't do everything. And let's talk after that a little bit about the culture, the people and then dive into some specific places.

So high level, someone's thinking, I want to go to France, let's just talk about when when to come the different seasons. And, you know, I'm sure there's an argument for all of them. So so what kind of experiences you'd have and, and maybe how long, how long you need, and, and we'll go from there.

I mean, obviously, anybody who has two weeks to spend in France, I mean, that's, that's kind of ideal. But I know people who are able to still go slowly, but have, you know, a week or five to seven days, and, and, and visit a couple of places. Obviously, it's it's slightly more challenging.

And invariably, they wish they had spent more time. But you know, whatever, if you don't have two weeks, that's fine. I would say the period of the year is actually more important than necessarily the duration of time. The summer is getting increasingly more expensive, for one. It's also extremely hot and dry.

I mean, France in, you know, is a victim of, of climate change, just like every destination. But what we're seeing now is increasing periods of drought. So last summer, I was traveling in the Louberon, which is inland in Provence. And there were serious forest fires all over the region.

And that continued well throughout the summer. And so there are things that change and what you can and can't do, obviously, when you're in in those parts of France when that's happening. But that also means that, you know, the the probability of encountering a heatwave when you're here during the summer is increasing.

And that's even true in Paris, to be frank, like last summer was extremely hot. A series of days going well over, I guess, 40 degrees centigrade is what like over 100 degrees, or almost 100 degrees Fahrenheit. And when you don't have a lot of AC, like you feel that in a really significant way.

So summer for me, is not the ideal time to come. If that's the only period of time you have, then I would maybe guide you toward cooler locations in France, like the coast, the western coast where Brittany is, potentially northern parts of France or Alsace. But you know, even there, they can get extremely have a series of days that are extremely hot.

Spring, I mean, I'm sitting in Paris right now we are May 18. And the weather has been erratic, not very warm, very rainy since March. And every year is a bit different. So really, we can't speak of sort of like any kind of trend for spring anymore. But the period of the year that seems to be the most reliable is like September, October.

So if you're able to sort of wait out the summer travel period and go when most people are back to work, then you'll have sort of like the best of the country to yourself. And that's true, even in big cities where yes, things are back into into action. But you've got restaurants that are all back open from their summer holiday, you have all the new sort of museum exhibits and gallery openings and cultural events happening.

And so it's kind of a sweet spot. Christmas too, is actually a really lovely time because, you know, a lot of Parisians are sorry, I know, I keep referring to Paris, I mean, a lot of locals are going to be with their families wherever you're traveling. But business really keeps going between Christmas and New Year's.

So I'd say the worst time of the year, I think to be in France is New Year's Day, because literally nothing is open. And I think even if you're in a hotel, you might even have, you know, the the restaurant in house restaurant that's closed. But aside from that, you know, that the the fall is a really great time to come.

So my my advice is really, you know, whether you have five days or two weeks, the more important question is, when can you come? Yeah, well, you could make a good trip. I think I've done five trips. And I haven't had a bad trip yet. Obviously, I kept coming back.

More most recently was last year, last December, we came. And we had that Christmas experience. We went to the Christmas markets. You know, it was it's just wonderful. Like, I don't think there's a bad time. But I think there is a better time. And so that's a very optimistic way of looking at it.

Yeah, so and let's talk generally about the regions. I think people know Paris, whether they've been there or not. They've obviously seen in the movies. I think I've done a disservice to the country of France by spending too much of my travels to Paris, and then some in the south.

But even I feel like I need a little bit of an education on high level, what are the kinds of regions of places people might want to consider going to outside of Paris? Well, you have the Loire Valley, which is very green, very fairytale esque, known for a chateau known for its incredible diversity of wines.

Also, if you're someone who happens to be interested in natural wine, it was sort of like the birthplace of natural wine in France. So there are a lot of very interesting producers. You have Burgundy, which is sort of the the the next great spot to be right now. Especially if you like wine.

There's a whole wine route that you can take, that really leads you through sort of the key towns, winemaking towns in Burgundy. Then you have, you know, Alsace, which is on the border with Germany. And you know, Strasbourg is the is the key city there. And it's very picturesque.

It's really lovely. Christmas is a particularly like the end of your holiday is obviously a very, very sort of. It's amazing. I forgot that I had been there until you just said that. Oh, my gosh, we went there for the holidays. It's so charming. My wife is the word we go back.

And Paris, honestly, when you compare the Paris way of celebrating the end of year to what happens in Strasbourg, you're like the Parisians depressed because they're, you know, the level of festivity is very tame. So. So, you know, that's that's that. But it's also beautiful right now, too. It's very green.

Brittany, as I mentioned before, very wild, very, you know, obviously incredible seafood, beautiful towns. Then you have Normandy, which is sort of like almost between Brittany and and Ile de France, the region where Paris is. And you have, you know, the D-Day beaches, you have lots of beautiful small towns, you have the you can you can go to the ocean.

And then on a completely different register, you have the Basque Coast, the western southwestern France, almost getting down into northern Spain, where you have San Sebastian and Bilbao. And so a lot of people will do that route. Actually, they'll fly into maybe Biarritz and visit Bayonne, Biarritz, Saint-Jean de Luz.

There are also big surf towns, which is really quite special. If you're into that kind of like, you know, ocean sport kind of adventure, but also very good food and then heading down even further into the into Spanish Basque country. Obviously, you mentioned Provence, but you have Provence sort of like south where Marseille and Avignon is and then you have the Riviera south, which is very, you know, very glitzy, very glam.

I don't love all of it. I think some of it is very overly sceny. Saint-Tropez is like my least favorite place in France, just like Cannes. I think they're completely overrated. But if you have a lot of money to spend, I would say between the two go to Saint-Tropez because there's some absolutely spectacular hotels.

But as a general rule, like they're not, they kind of let you down. They're kind of like the Vegas of France in some ways. And then the Alps, I mean, gosh, some of the some of the most incredible experiences I've had were in the mountains and not only in the winter when there's snow.

So you know, I've been to areas around Mugev during the summer and done amazing hikes. And then you go back in this in the in the winter. And yes, like a lot of Europe, there's less and less snow during the winter to for proper skiing. And so that's, again, another environmental reality.

But the benefit of someplace like Mugev is that it's lower altitude. And so even if you can't do like incredible have the incredible ski slope experience, you have at least a village and another vibe that's quite special with the chalets and you can go snowshoeing. So you don't there's just like whatever you want to do in this country, you can probably do it and have very different cuisine along the way.

I'm glad you mentioned cuisine because that's kind of like a core tenant of my style of travel. But before we go too far down that path, I'm thinking, gosh, you just described like, I don't know, 10 trips, realistically. No, and that's a good thing, right? Like, all I can think about now is we should probably just move there for a few months.

Like, why not? And what I want to know is, okay, so someone's now like, wow, it's gonna take this trip. Is Paris a must add on a trip if you haven't been or I mean, you live there, like should someone even you didn't mention it, I assume because I mentioned, you know, we said, outside of Paris, but to me, it's like inconceivable not to come to Paris at least once, because I think it's so important, even if for sort of a generalized understanding of France and how it functions, for better or for worse, it's a country that has been that has centered everything around Paris, really.

And that has to do with the way the way the monarchy was, the way the royal court had set things up the way that they perceived sort of the set the not only the economic center, but the cultural center of the of the country was necessarily in Paris. And so they kind of still have this weird thing where it's like Paris is the is the is the is the golden child, and then everywhere else is sort of like, you know, the rest of France.

Obviously, people don't view it that way, on an everyday level, but you do get the sense, especially when you're going to museums, and you're, and you're digging into that history on a visit to Paris, you see how important Paris has always been, you know, in the US, obviously, you have, you know, the the former, the original colonies that were were super important, New York, Philadelphia, Virginia, okay.

But Paris is like on another level. And so I think for you to contextualize the way the country functions, and of course, if that's interesting to you, I mean, I think it's kind of crucial to have an understanding of a, of a country, if you're going to visit, you know, and go beyond just sort of like, again, checking off a list, but really getting under the surface of a place, it's helpful to at least know, whether it's in a day or two have had some sort of experience that contextualizes Paris and the rest of and the rest of France, and just from a cultural, historical, architectural perspective, and a culinary perspective, like, you'd be missing out, you'd be missing out on a truly exceptional and fascinating and dynamic experience by overlooking Paris.

I don't disagree having been there plenty of times, and we're going to spend some time on Paris. I imagine it's also probably true that I imagine the average person's not gonna be able to go to all the places you mentioned. If you want to try the cuisines of those places, I imagine Paris is the place outside of any region to find exposure to other other styles in life and food in one place.

That's very true. I'd say maybe the the place where you have maybe the or sorry, the city or the the destination that is maybe least represented in Paris is Marseille and that's a that's a whole other breed unto itself. But cities like Paris and even Lyon, you can probably find, you know, a fair amount of all the other regional cuisines to varying degrees of, you know, excellence and expertise.

But no, honestly, Paris is the ideal place to get that exposure. So if someone's coming for you, like you said, two weeks would be great. Let's assume they've got, you know, 1014 days. Paris is in there. How many days do you think, you know, you could obviously spend all two weeks there.

But if you're trying to help someone think about constructing their their kind of two week itinerary to France, how would you think about breaking it out? And, you know, of all the places you just mentioned, are there some highlights you think are great for a first trip? Well, you know, the the feedback I get from people is that, you know, if they fly directly into Paris, it makes sense to sort of start there, get acclimated, take your time, you know, it's a great place to just sort of walk around.

So if you're if you're heavily jet lagged, and you're sort of gearing up for maybe even a more active trip in the next places you're going, it's good to sort of ease in with Paris. And you know, if you're if it's a lot easier to adjust, if you know, all you have to do is walk out your apartment or hotel door and you know, stumble upon a restaurant, you don't have to go very far.

In other words, to sort of get yourself get yourself going when you arrive. So I would say spending a handful of days at least three or at least four days in Paris would be ideal to be honest, before making making your way elsewhere. And I think for a first time visitor, it makes it honestly makes sense to do one of two things going to Normandy because of the sort of cultural awareness that exists, especially if you're you know, if you're someone who had family active in the war, Normandy is sort of like, kind of a crucial stopping point.

And even if you're not interested in in in sort of the World War Two experience, you, you have such beautiful landscapes, such incredible food that it would, it would make sense as sort of like, this is this is still relatively close to Paris, I can drive, I could take a train, I could experience some things.

And then either come back to Paris or move on from there. But I think it's a good sort of first step outside of Paris, or skipping that and going directly to the south of France, because you know, that's sort of one of the other iconic experiences, and something that is so very different from the Parisian experience.

So if the idea is you're going to sort of mix the vibes during your trip, you know, being by the Mediterranean is is honestly spectacular and, and and opens up a whole other world in terms of understanding France and how it functions. Certainly, if you're more of an outdoorsy person, I would say, you know, going from Paris to Provence or Paris to the mountains would make great sense, because there's so much you can do, whether it's, you know, like I said, summer or winter.

And, and I would say that the Basque country is probably better for people who have been a few times only because it's, it's a it's a very different experience. It's it's more like the people who go to Portugal, I think, and go, you know, surfing in in seaside towns in Portugal, or accustomed to surfing in California.

That's kind of the vibe there. And I don't know that you're getting sort of Yes, it's a it's a sort of a true French experience. But I don't think on a first trip that that's, that's sort of the introduction I would I would recommend. Okay, I want to get to the south of France places because you mentioned a few not to go but let's pause for a second there.

Any places you think that someone might be hearing about when they're planning their trip that are kind of overhyped, or maybe kind of emerging and underappreciated? I would say still Britney remains like very there's sort of like a cursory kind of coverage that exists around Britney for whatever reason, Britney in the Basque country, honestly, those are the two places.

So again, all on the sort of Western, all the western coast of France that for whatever reason, I think maybe just in the being in the shadow of some of these more cinematic places, don't get the kind of exposure that they deserve, but they are magnificent. And honestly, they especially in Britney, you'll feel like you're you know, there's probably more in common with like, the Isle of Jersey and and and like the experience on the on the English coast than with else other places in France.

So it has this very wild, very natural, totally other other worldly almost experience that it that it that it offers and the landscapes are just absolutely breathtaking. And it deserves to be, I think, more frequented by by foreigners, simply because it's also very, it's one of the few places that remains pretty cool even during the summer.

So we have the heat wave, it's sort of like always the one place we look on the map to be like, okay, what was the max temperature in Britney in the week of heat wave, and it usually is the only place in the entire country that is like, acceptable, like summer acceptable.

So maybe a good place to add on if it's a hot summer. Absolutely. And finally, any mistakes you think people make when they're planning their trip that you're like, hey, just before we get into any more details, don't do XYZ. One of the things that is, I mean, this is a common American trait, I think is packing like five suitcases and trying to then go a whole number of places and have to drag this all this stuff along.

And I think that it does that it does a disservice because accommodations are almost always smaller than what they're used to in the States. And that must be true in other countries like Australia, where things are just bigger. And then trying to then take all that stuff and go to too many places in one trip.

I think people are like, I need to maximize my time, I get like two seconds of vacation. I get it. But think smaller. Think about ease of travel. Think about, you know, this is a very old country. France is very old, much older than perhaps where you're from. And and the infrastructure tends to be narrower.

And so when you come on your trip with 70 suitcases full of stuff you don't need, or won't even, you know, remove from the suitcase, it seems like you're just sort of carrying dead weight. And that's going to be something you have to drag to every place you go.

So sort of this combo of like overpacking and overpacking your trip with too many destinations. I think there's something that it's even it's taken me as someone who likes to save money, time to process. But there are some countries where you can't buy a lot of things that you might be accustomed to.

France is not one of those countries. So, you know, even the simple thing, like, we don't we don't buy diapers, like you could go buy like, there's a lot of things you didn't bring a jacket because you didn't think it was gonna get that cold. There are lots of places that you can go buy a jacket, you know, other things.

So it's not a country where it's hard to augment what you packed. And so I would say, keep that in mind, as you're thinking about how much you actually need to bring. Also, I have to add this because this is a common thing that comes up. I mean, even from my own father, who was like baffled when I was like, you do not need dress shoes.

We're not going to like, a two or three Michelin star restaurant, every single person who comes to Paris or almost anywhere in this country wear sneakers or I mean, it's like a sneaker culture now. So this idea that you have to have this excessively formal wear to go out to a restaurant means you're packing lots of stuff you don't need because that is just not the way people go out.

And I will even say, I have been to one, two or three Michelin star restaurant in France. And I didn't bring a jacket and they had jackets to borrow. Yeah, it was like, it didn't fit perfectly. But I met the requirement without having to pack a jacket. Right. And so even that there is sometimes ways to skirt around that requirement.

Totally. It's very rare to get turned away at this point, because there's usually sort of a solution. But, but the footwear in particular, since that adds a lot of weight to your your suitcase, I just want to be like, go go easy on the like fancy footwear, you won't need it.

All right. Well, so that brings to a kind of another section of kind of the people, the culture. You talked about, you know, slowing down, it's where you might meet people. Let's talk a little bit. How do you describe the culture? I think France has a bit of a reputation in some people's minds for attitude and and and people talk about like, what you've experienced, you've lived there 16 years, like what, how would you describe the people in the culture in France?

This is a this is a overall a people that are very curious, very cultured, very, very in tune with the land, I'd say the average person knows probably more about, you know, like, food and where it comes from, then then other people I've met, or that I grew up with, they tend to lean quite intellectual, a little bit philosophical, they, yes, they have, they can have a bit of an attitude, they can have a bit of a cynical outlook on on life.

And I think part of that has to do with sort of falling from greatness, historically, you know, like you have the you were the great superpower, you had the kings, then you had the revolution. And, you know, and then from there, you also had, you know, de Gaulle, who who told you we were great, you know, that they were great people.

And, and then you sort of slide out of being the sort of superpower, and they have a lot of soft power, obviously, I mean, this is the culture that produces and exports that a staggering number of of high end products, right from from this incredible artisanal know how when it comes to fashion and handbags and, and food products, and, you know, sort of all sorts of things, but it's no longer the diplomatic or political power that it used to be.

And so I think some of that is like they, they have this bit of a chip on their shoulder of like, well, we were historically great and powerful. And I think that's something that comes into play quite a lot, especially as I often analyze, like, the way the politics works here, and the way people perceive some of their rights, and that they should always have them or not have them or, you know, whatever, all the debates that exist on, on, on sort of what they should or shouldn't be be given with, you know, without any any fight, I think all leads back to sort of their trajectory as a culture as a country.

So they're very proud people, obviously, they have a lot to be proud about, they've contributed a great number of artistic and gastronomic innovations in the world, but also architecturally, I mean, Paris, in particular, was was a complete innovator when it came to urban planning within Europe in the, you know, what the 17th and 18th century.

So I think that's that narrative or the perspective of Paris and France as sort of this global innovator kind of got lost along the way, because other cultures sort of picked up the picked up the pace or, you know, out innovated them. But, but this is a culture that I think is very proud of all the things that that the that its people, its minds, its greatest minds have have done for the world.

And also, it's a culture that I think struggles with certainly some of the ills of its past. I mean, what other culture? What other country? I mean, is there any other country that has sort of like properly come to terms with their past? Probably not. But this is like an ongoing part of their existence.

And you get that sense that, you know, they're still grappling with some things. And depending on where you go, that'll be more or less palpable. But you know, I'm sure some of your listeners will have heard or seen videos of the protests that we had in, you know, since the beginning of the year on the pension reform.

And like, you can't dissociate something like that happening and, and the and the outpouring of, you know, passionate critique or resistance. You can't associate that with the way the culture functions overall. I mean, this is a they fight for their rights. And that's quite admirable. And if that means that, like, you know, your route to a museum gets disrupted, like, yeah, that's, that's kind of part of what you come for, in a way you're seeing a people that are really still fighting for the rights that they they want to protect and the rights that they feel that they still deserve.

And and I think you feel that in a way that you might not feel it to the same extent in other European nations. And is it easy to meet people? Right? That's a good background on kind of who they are. But what kind of local experiences when it comes to personal interactions?

Do you think, you know, American or foreign or traveling to France can expect? I think as long as you're comfortable or not comfortable, but at least willing to engage with locals, they'll, they'll engage with you. I mean, if you if you try to speak a few words in French, you know, just to be like, you know, hey, I can't, you know, I speak very little French, I speak English, can I talk to you in English, and then you go from there, like, and then you engage them on whatever they're drinking, or, you know, what they recommend in the neighborhood, people are warm, people want to have that engagement with people, with with travelers.

And I think the problem arises when you when travelers sort of assume that they need to be sort of experience the sitting city alongside or city or country, whatever, alongside of the people, but without actually trying to connect with them. I think that that does a disservice to the experience.

And then you're missing something that's sort of integral to the experience. And it could be as simple as like, you know, let's say you're having a wine tasting in Burgundy, and you're like, you know what, I'd love to know what you recommend, where do you go when you're not at work?

Or where do you go when you're you know, with your family, trying to get a sense of their version of the place. And it usually allows them to relax, and it gives them the chance to sort of provide for your trip, you know, if they can make a difference in your trip, that sort of is a is a gift to them.

And so I get the sense that there's this this love of sharing that you just need to tap into, but it's there. I never thought about this until just this moment. But there's such a stark difference between asking someone like, where's the best x versus what do you think the best x is?

And it seems like a strategy, maybe anywhere in the world, but especially in France might be to make all of your conversations very personal to the person you're talking to. You nailed it. That is exactly what it is. I mean, the French want to feel like you're you're inquiring them because it's them.

And not just that they happen to be a body that lives in proximity to some other stuff. And I think I think that's a that's an accurate way of assessing what they appreciate, just like they don't expect you to be fluent, you don't need to like get bent out of shape that you can't have a full on conversation with them.

But they do really appreciate you trying, whether it's with just the sort of salutations or asking, you know, where's the bathroom like, just try any topics that if you find yourself at a bar having a conversation that you're like, just just don't bring these things up. They don't lead lend well, you know, to a conversation in France.

I think talk about wealth is very taboo, especially given the disparities that exist between the you know, sort of the old ultra wealthy and the far less wealthy. I would say, stay clear of politics. I mean, if you ask people about about the president. I mean, you're not you don't live in the country.

So you know, you don't have that much of a maybe a stake, but it can get kind of heated. And I think then you run the risk of them asking, especially if you're from the US, that will veer right back into sort of our or the American political system.

And if that's not something you're really in the mood to start debating, then like just keep politics off the table. Okay, I like it. And we haven't talked a little bit about, you know, broadly people and who it makes sense to travel with. We went with kids. How is France easy for someone with lots of children to travel around?

We were only in Paris. But let's talk about the people are people warm and welcoming to children being around? What's your perspective? They absolutely can be warm and welcoming to children. However, if you know that you have children who are like really ill behaved, just good luck, because the French are not going to hold back.

If you're on a train and your kids are going absolutely ballistic, you'll hear from some people who are like, you know, you're disturbing us, you need to get a hold on your kids. And it won't be in the way that I think, you know, like, again, I can only speak to Americans, but the way the Americans tend to handle those kinds of situations, but they'll, they'll give you like horrible side eye, they might scoff at you, they might also if they're older, they might definitely try to like, parent for you.

And I just think, you know, there are certain places given there's a lot going on, especially in a city like Paris, there are a lot of people, there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of people trying to move quickly. No, we're not quite like New York. But you know, people are still trying to go, you know, get to where they need to go.

And if you're traveling with like a bunch of kids, and they're rowdy, and you don't have a hold on them. Yeah, I think that's going to be it's going to be stressful for everyone, yourself included. I also think that in Paris, especially you don't see a lot of very, very young kids at restaurants, I think parents tend to hear, you know, they take them out to the parks, they go to kid focused places.

And maybe during the day, they'll take their kid to a cafe for a you know, a snack or a hot chocolate or something. But in the evening, that tends to be sort of like parents time. So almost all of my friends who have kids, it's extremely rare that they go out with their children to dinner.

So that might mean, if you're really looking to have a special meal without the kids, maybe you need to have a plan for a babysitter. And there are, you know, locals and resources where you can figure figure that out. Or maybe you have an older child who can watch the younger child, I don't know.

But it's totally possible in Paris is really all of France's, it can be super fun with kids. But just know that it depends on your children. And I think you need to be honest with yourself about what kind of kids you have. Yeah, I will say we went out to dinner, almost exclusively with a six month old and a two year old.

And you know, we're, we're greeted warmly. So they must be very well behaved, too. I would say as well behaved as children that age could be. But but it went pretty well. So great. And then what about food? Let's talk right before we get I want to go into Paris and then rest of the country, but high level.

Are there culinary experiences that people need to be having on any trip to France specific ones? What I would say is that people who come to Paris specifically, because Paris is really the place where you're going to have you could have like a whole host of culinary experiences, some of which, you know, are traditionally French, and then the rest are a very modern interpretation of what it means to eat in Paris today.

And that might be blended with Southeast Asian food, it might be blended with Mediterranean cuisine, and Mediterranean cuisine could mean from sort of the Levantine parts of the world to the Italian and French coast. So it really depends on what you're you're sort of looking for, I would say, get it, if you're going to go to a place like Paris, if you're going to go to a place like Marseille, where there are multiple cultural influences, it behooves you to sort of say, I'm going to have some very classically French bistro experiences, I might have a neo bistro experience, which is very contemporary, very inventive, very market driven.

And I'm also going to have some of the other kinds of diasporic cuisines that are very present in these places, because they sort of all make up the fabric of the place. And I think that's the that's the important thing to keep in mind. Obviously, when you go to regions that are, you know, haven't really expanded their international influences, it makes sense to, you know, to go with whatever is there, places where it's very seafood heavy, and it's all very local, and you know, whatever the local vegetables are, like, do that, have that experience.

But, but but certainly, like you mentioned, which was a which was a great point, if you have limited time, and you're not going to get to a lot of regions, there's quite a lot of of choice in Paris alone, to have sort of a smattering of those regional flavors.

That's great. And is there a source someone could use, whether it's an app, a site to find, you know, reliably good ratings or places to eat? I don't think at least my experience TripAdvisor is not that. What do the locals use to is it just word of mouth? It's word of mouth, but also we use le fooding.

So it's le and then fooding. And they they they're sort of like, I don't know what to call them. They're sort of like, a little bit more of a niche eater calm, maybe. That's in English as well. And so if you type in, let's say, obviously, Paris is super represented, Marseille, the big cities.

But if you even type in, like, I'm going to Megev, which is obviously a much smaller, smaller destination, they too will probably have a few recommendations. So I would say it's a it's sort of a, it's a gauge of quality. Also kind of vibe, I think, you know, the places that end up in le fooding are both good and also have a certain atmosphere.

And and I think that for to have a little bit more of an insidery pool of suggestions, that's a better idea than getting, you know, like Joe from whatever city in America who said he liked this place that he found randomly, like, I don't know, you know, that's that's the difficulty with TripAdvisor and places that sort of just accumulate traveler opinions.

I mean, I think if you're looking for where the locals go, definitely go to a site that is run also by by locals and local journalists. I would say Instagram can be helpful as well. And if you're looking, you know, specifically for Paris, like I have my own digital guide to Paris, I also, you know, obviously wrote a book, but the the more updated version is a digital sort of, yeah, it's like a PDF you get, and you can use it and you can put things on your Google Map, there is a connected Google Map.

And so there are people who do that, which I think is helpful. If you're looking, if you, if you sort of sense that someone is a trustworthy voice, you know, they might have something already built in for you to either use or purchase or whatever, that could give you kind of a whittled down but sharp, curated list of places to eat.

And then if you're obviously a Michelin person, that's, you know, if you're looking for sort of the fine dining, I mean, that remains still like a, you know, a very acceptable guide to planning your your eating, it's just, you know, might empty your wallet after a while. Well, your guide is fantastic.

I'm going to link to that in the show notes, people can check that out and know where to get it. Couple logistic things. timing, what time do people eat? Do you need reservations? Any kind of logistical guides for eating? Yes. So depending on where you go, I mean, obviously, it can vary.

But for the most part, you're not really going to be with other people until at least seven, 730. Seven is super early, that's like almost early bird here. There are a few places that do all day service, you know, sort of like the nonstop groceries, but that that only gives you a certain type of food, obviously, like it's, it's, it's like, a small percentage of, you know, your options.

So don't don't figure that you're going to have, you know, an ambience and get to start eating before 738. In other parts of France, you know, that might be a little bit, you know, there might be second seatings that are at 9pm. But for the most part, especially when you get into small towns, it's probably going to be 730.

And they stop serving at 10 or 1030. So I think you need to keep that in mind if you need an afternoon snack. Also, the other thing people sometimes forget is that they don't necessarily serve lunch everywhere through the entire afternoon. So you know, if it opens at 12 or 1230 for lunch, it may close by 3pm for lunch service.

So that's something you definitely need to plan and in big cities with, you know, some, some pretty, pretty trendy or just like generally really beloved establishments reserving ahead is better. But if you arrive and you're in a hotel, and you speak to your concierge, you know, they can also try to help get you in so that you don't need to completely plan everything in advance.

My general recommendation is try to book a few things, and then leave the rest up to sort of improv. In some places, I find that if you see a place that looks crowded, and it looks like it's not a bunch of tourists, it's probably a good spot. Yeah, worry about it.

Is that advice apply that usually bears out? I mean, popular could also mean though that depending on the time of day could mean you're in an area with a lot of companies and people are on their lunch break, and they go to a certain place because it's convenient, inexpensive, and fine, but like, maybe wouldn't be great in the evening.

So and that's not something you're necessarily going to know if you don't really know a city and sort of where the business districts are. But for the most part, yeah, I mean, if you if you don't get the sense that it's like all English speaking, by the same token, there are a bunch of very excellent restaurants in Paris, for example, where there are, because they've been written about so much, they actually have a largely English speaking clientele, but are also good.

So it depends if you want to have that, you know, that chef or those owners experience while also being seated with other English speakers. To me, it's like, only a thing on occasion I'll do because, you know, if I'm really into trying or supporting that, that, you know, chef or restaurant owner, but I do find it a bit jarring to be in a place, you know, where like, potentially, maybe my husband and I are the only ones speaking French.

So in general, I personally, when I travel, try to avoid those scenarios. Because I'm never going to really do the research to find out. But like, is it really worth me going, you know, like, that's already a bit off putting. Okay, you mentioned Paris. So let's let's dive in, because I want to make sure we get to some some details.

You know, Paris incredibly well, you've written books about Paris in multiple languages. It's it's impressive. Let's talk about someone planning there. You said, you know, at least three or four could be a week, days in Paris. Well, in terms of staying, I think the the first question to ask is what neighborhood do you really want to be planted in?

Because that can determine the rest of your, your itinerary, essentially, I mean, no, nothing is really that far to get to. And if you're going to use public transport, I mean, you could be on the in the 11th arrondissement where I live and still, you know, go to the Fondation Louis Vuitton, which is, you know, on the western extremities of the city.

So it's not it's not impossible. But I think you need to know sort of what you what you're going to do the most of. Are you going to be going to a lot of museums? Are you really keen on being near the river that would dictate sort of what neighborhoods I would recommend to you.

And once you've narrowed down what neighborhood you want to be in, and then you can go into sort of, okay, do you want an apartment, Airbnbs are getting way more expensive. At this point, some people think that hotels are back to being sort of the greatest value. And you can also get a lot of boutique hotels, which are really, you know, really charming, really interesting, great views, great services, and put you sort of in the heart of the action.

I, you know, I know a lot of people who stay in the in the St Germain area, because it's like, you know, it's, it's close to a lot of things. It's good. It's near the river. It's very charming. It's very picturesque. But for the best food experiences, it's it's it's not there.

So I think the person who's planning needs to think like, okay, am I the food traveler who really just wants to go to all the best restaurants, in which case there's a huge concentration of them in eastern Paris. Maybe it's best I stay sort of right bank over by bestie or near Oberkampf or, or in the Marais, at least, you know, because at least that is, you know, sort of getting you closer.

If that's not your thing, and you really are like, I want to go antique shopping and go to museums and be in the pure center of the city, then I'd say yeah, you could stay in the first, you could stay in the sixth, you could stay in the fifth.

But it might not be the most sort of like dynamic in the evening. Generally, I think that the seventh is one of the more boring places to stay. It's very sleepy. It's very residential. So yes, that's closer to the Eiffel Tower. But like, you don't need to seat in your backyard to have a, you know, a wonderful experience.

I just realized we both have been to Paris, you've lived there 16 years, I've been there a bunch. For anyone who doesn't know, Paris is structured with about about how many like a snail, it's a snail 20 hour on these mall. Yes. Circle around from the center. So one being dead center going clockwise around 20.

So just if you hear if you hear references to the seventh and the fifth, there, you could just search Paris map and you'll see all of these numbers highlighting the regions. Yes, it's true. I often forget that this is not, you know, the most common knowledge. I take that for granted.

So good thing you reminded people. You know, at the end of the day, if you're like, I struggled to find a place and this is what I could find. And it was in the 15,000 D small, you'll be fine. And you'll probably have a really lovely experience. But it's not ideal, right?

So there are just neighborhoods where you're going to get really like you're in the get the sense that you're in the heart of things that you're close to things that, you know, you could be it could be practical, given the type of trip you want to have. Is there a place that you'd put if you're like, I want to have, I want to feel like I'm staying somewhere where I'm surrounded by locals, I'm having a local experience.

I'm close enough to things, but I'm okay trekking to the sites. I'm okay trekking to the best restaurants. But I just kind of want like a fun, interesting neighborhood with, you know, good cafe, I can go relax, but just feel like I'm not in the in the mix of it.

Is there a place you'd you'd throw out? Yeah, I would say, my part of town, you know, you could you could you could stay near. It's funny, because we tend to think of things in terms of like their metro neighborhoods. So like Sharon, where there's a lot of good food for those listening who have been here and who might know Paris, it's not far from the restaurant septim, which is, you know, sort of like now, totally beloved.

You could stay, you could stay in Belleville, which is hugely dynamic and super diverse and super interesting. And that gets you close to a park that I really love called the boot show. So either in Belleville, or further up into the 19,000 small would be would be wonderful. And you could easily get on the metro and get right back into the center of the center of things.

And then on the flip side, if you want sort of a very calm, calm and quiet experience, then yeah, I would say the fifth and sixth, deeper in sort of closer to like Luxembourg gardens is probably going to be more of a tranquil, serene, relaxing kind of experience that isn't necessarily, you know, right in the middle, but will be lovely.

And just to for everyone's awareness, I don't want to go in and say, here are the 50 sites, like we don't need to list off all the the tourist destinations that everyone can find in any guide or anything like that. But I would love to tap on what are what are a few things?

Because like you said, we don't want to plan your whole trip for you. We want to just give you some inspiration. Are there a few things in Paris that you think aren't the obvious attractions or activities that someone should put on their list to check out? Maybe they're not good for everyone.

But for some people worth sharing? Yeah, I think people who are overwhelmed by the Louvre, especially which I know I am. There are plenty of smaller museums. This is sort of the city of smaller museums, and also what you would call a house museum. So sort of the the private former private home of a very, you know, prolific writer artist.

And there are several that I think are worth visiting the Musee de Montmartre, which is in the 18th. So if you're going to go up toward the Sackraker Cathedral, or Basilica in that neighborhood, so the 18th arrondissement, that's a fantastic, small, really intimate museum. And I believe they have a nice in inner garden.

You also have the Gustave Moreau Museum. And similarly, it's so beautiful. It's it's quite small, really inexpensive entry fee, and and is focused on it was the former home of the of the artist Gustave Moreau. And so all of it is sort of rewritten, not recreated, but sort of frozen in time as though it's how he left it and his works are displayed.

And there's this really iconic spiral staircase, it's really beautiful. And that's a much smaller, less overwhelming experience. And then for something bigger, but still, still completely worth visiting is the Carnavalet Museum, which is in the Marais, and it's the City of Paris Museum, essentially. And so you have all of the works, all of the exhibits are related to the history of Paris.

And and that is just sort of a non negotiable for me, but it often doesn't make the list for people when they when they come and they're doing, you know, the Louvre, the Musee d'Orsay and some of the other big classics. And then finally, I would say if you're really into contemporary art, you could go the gallery route, which is a little bit more intimidating, and I think a little bit less sort of easy to navigate.

Or you could go to the Pinot collection, which is again one of you know, one of France's billionaires who has a private institution, but it's in a really spectacular building quite in the center of city, not not far from the river. That's a that's a that's a very unique experience.

Yeah, we we because we had kids skipped out on all of the art. So I have nothing to add here. But the Cité des Sciences Museum. Oh, for kids. Yeah, that's great. Absolutely. Like, you know, I wish our kids nap schedule allowed us to be there longer, but I will give it a plug there.

It might be the best kids science museum I've ever been to, which I can't say I've been to a lot, but it was awesome. The park around it was awesome. Easy to get to. So that's my one plug. That's a good plug. And also, I would say, another spot that's also very good for adults and kids is the it's called the Musée de la chasse et la nature.

It's the hunting the nature and hunting museum, which sounds like kind of like it could be a little bit grim. But actually, it's super well done. It's beautiful. And for kids who are like interested in seeing animals and, you know, paintings of animals in their in the natural environment, that's a good choice or the Natural History Museum, which is in the Jardin des Plantes, which is one of the gardens and there you'll have like, you know, dinosaur bones and, and fossils and all sorts of stuff that's like really good for for kids.

Any other kind of like unique, weird tour kind of stuff, whether it's like at a market or or is that catacombs that or is that just overrated or stuff in that vein? That's maybe not not the museums that we're kind of typically told about, but but kind of cool, maybe other other experiences.

I do think the catacombs is a really unique experience. You really have to be someone who's not afraid of closed quarters and closed spaces. I think you also sort of have to plan ahead because I know that if you go too late in the afternoon, you may hit a point where they're not actually letting anyone in anymore.

And so you just sort of waited in line. It's very cool, though. I mean, I think that's something you're not going to get in a whole lot of cities, other cities. And then beyond that, I think there's some sort of unusual tours you can you can get on that are sort of like, taking you through a specific history.

So it might be like, you know, a Paris under the occupation or something like a women, the women of Paris tour. So there are things that are sort of not necessarily super unusual, but just not your general overview kind of experiences that that are, you know, that are worth looking into.

And where where do these good experiences exist? Is Airbnb experiences a place to find them? Is there a better local site? Is there a, you know, a, I don't know, a blog that talks about things? No, that's a very good question. I would say, Airbnb experiences, I think are only going to get you so far, they might be okay.

But I think they I, for one thing, the problem is that, you know, people don't spend a lot on those. And so you sort of get what you pay for. I think that there are a couple of things you can do if you're interested in in, you know, wine tastings, there are a couple of outlets of sort of let me start again.

If you're really into wine tastings, for example, there are certain specialists, for example, certain spaces, there's the cave du Louvre, there's cavewoman wines, and she runs different events in her in her wine shop. I think there, you know, you sort of have to be specific when you're looking. But if you're looking for a service that has multiple types of tours, or experiences, I think it's good to look at, for example, Context Travel, which is a company that runs experiences and tours in a variety of different cities in the world and have very good docents and very good themes.

And, you know, I think in general, the quality of the experience is very high. In Paris, specifically, you also have Paris by mouth, which are obviously as the name suggests, food, food focused tours, and then there are a bunch of independent smaller run kind of experiences in food. I mean, food is really the the area where we're like, bursting at the seams with options.

But, but I would say, you know, either you get recommendations from, let's say, like a travel planner, who has connections with certain key guides, or, or, you know, I for one, do a couple of tours upon requests that are based on my book. So but I don't do this full time.

So it's sort of like an upon request thing. If you're looking for something you can sort of jump on at last minute, you need to sort of find bigger companies get your guide also has some that I think are going to be a little bit more qualitative than than an Airbnb experience.

Food keeps coming up as a theme. So I'll just ask you to throw out any places you love that people should just check out. I know, I know there's an unlimited number of places you haven't been to them all. But I bet. I bet you have some places where you're like, here's some some spots that I'd recommend eating at.

And I know people love getting the kind of local recommendation. So yeah, I'll give you a couple. Actually in the seventh hour on the small, which I know I kind of disparaged earlier, but like the key place is let me show. And that is just truly excellent, consistently. You know, the chef owner has been doing it for nearly 20 years.

It has an incredible vibe. The portions are large there. It's excellent, excellent, excellent food. A bits. There's a bit of a southwestern French inflection. Just just really spectacular. Definitely need to book ahead. The other experience I would say is going into the market these on phone Rouge, which is the oldest covered market in Paris, and hitting up some of those stands.

But if you want something that's like open all day nonstop. There's a stand in particular in the market called les enfants du marché. And it's seafood, good meats, excellent natural wine, like there's a Japanese chef, but it's all French product. It's an incredible vibe. There's a great playlist. And they really run from like noon until the market closes.

So, you know, if you stumble in at 4pm, you know, you can at least have something to eat. And it may be the only stand open, but it'll be super fun. And you know, there's like kind of a young, really, really exciting vibe there. And the food, the quality of the food is just spectacular.

And and there is an excellent park for children right outside. Like one or two blocks away. You're right, which we went to. And but my advice to parents in the parks, don't be alarmed if the park closes very promptly and very quickly. I think in the US, it's kind of like at night people leave.

In France, I've had there was a whistle. And and at the exact moment the park closed within maybe one to two minutes, the entire park had vacated, the doors had been locked, and everyone was gone. And I was caught off guard thinking, well, the sun's still out, we could just keep playing.

It was like, when the park closes, you leave. But that park is right next to that market and was excellent. Yeah, the Carol do Tom and there's a there's like a big cultural center over there, too. So that that's a great area to walk around in general. But yeah, I think it's kind of like the guards are like, I got my shift is over.

I want to go home. Get out of the park. I would say also. So Mia is a great place. In St. Germain trying to give you some options here geographically is a is a great sort of modern modern bistro. That's really lovely. And then, oh boy, there's like coffee shops everywhere, like good quality coffee shops, you do need to just if that's something that's important to you, it's something that's important to me, you have to make sure you have the list because if you go into any old corner cafe, you'll probably have a really disgusting cup of coffee.

Is that list on your guide or where? No, it's a separate guide I am currently working on. But a lot of it is also on my my Instagram page, for example. And in my first book, there's a whole chapter on quality quality coffee and the difference between cafe culture and coffee culture.

So if you want to sort of get the the foundation for why it's historically been bad, that gives you a nice primer. But yeah, I think the market the market is a really great place because also it'll give you lots of options. That's that's the covered market. And then there are the pop up markets that are several times a week in different neighborhoods.

Definitely look, look into that. I mean, you can even Google open air food markets in Paris. And you know, it's a great place to go get a bunch of ingredients and cheeses and go to a park and have a picnic. Love that. Any What about people that are looking for some baked goods?

Any suggestions? Or a couple bakeries? I cannot I literally am physically incapable of giving just a couple like it's just tremendous. I mean, if there's one that I can recommend that is has several locations that might be easy for people. Pierre Hermé is the is the you know, the star, he's been called the Picasso of pastry.

And so obviously, he has like, multiple locations. And and his stuff is his stuff is incredible. But you know, I would also say, you know, some of the neighborhood bakeries are really where the the huge talent is these days. And one of my favorites is utopi. I mean, we say utopi, but it's spelled like utopia.

But with an E at the end, is it near open door or opened? No, there's an open comp. I can't remember. Overcome. Yes, over. Yes, yes. That's exactly in your word. Yes, we tried to go there. It was like the line was ridiculous. Yeah, the line. I mean, that'll tell you something if you go on a Sunday morning, forget it, you're going to be waiting in a line.

But the the pastries are excellent. I would say mamish is another one. They have a location in the 10th and one in the ninth. I want this small and it's really, really excellent. And then for the rest, I mean, you just got to connect with me and you know, get my list.

Yeah, definitely connect with Lindsay, getting around subway, I found easy, there's there's no real need to do anything else. I don't think we ever took a taxi or an Uber or anything at all. We took the train from the airport. Any other things people should think about when it comes to transportation?

Um, be mindful of the e scooters, they will be phased out. However, at the end of August, because the city voted to get rid of them. They were a bit of a problem. Just like the lack of enforcement of rules is a problem. But anyway, that's that's for another conversation.

So yeah, I would say you just while they're still sort of operating, you need to be mindful when you're walking around because they zip and come out of nowhere. But you really can either walk everywhere or take the metro. And, you know, if you're if you're someone, rarely do I encounter people who are like, I love the bus, I'm going to try to figure out the bus, the bus is like not very efficient, only because they're, there's a lot of construction in the city.

And so even though they have their own lane, they're often delayed. And they don't, they don't run as frequently as the metro. So you're going to spend a lot more time waiting around. But walk, metro, and if you're really courageous, you can take one of the, you know, the bikes, the city bike share program or the like Uber jump things.

They're sort of all over the place. But there's really very little need to take a cab unless you're like stumbling home drunk after a great meal. But even then the metro is probably still operating. We didn't talk actually about about drinking and nightlife. What's the the vibe like for bars, you know, that kind of stuff after dinner?

I mean, cocktails are still very much a fixture of the of the of the dining and nightlife landscape. I would say wine bars also are sort of treated almost as, as destinations like cocktail bars. And so especially if you're into certain types of wine, like natural wine or organic wine, there's like, you know, a slew of those kinds of bars.

And even hotel bars, I mean, they they definitely are still the more expensive type of experience. But there are some that are still very iconic, whether it's, you know, the Hemingway bar at the Ritz, or the Ambassador in the the Creon Hotel at Place de la Concorde. I mean, these are places that are just so sumptuous in terms of their interiors that like, if you really want that vibe, and you don't mind spending maybe 25 euros on a cocktail, like go there.

Otherwise, there's really no need to spend a whole lot of money. And also, if you're into beer, there are some craft beer bars, too. So you sort of we have we have all of the things. You can stay out late, but not too late, because the city basically all these all these places close, I think around one o'clock.

And and you know, you mentioned the footing, but where would you find a good cocktail bar? Like, where would you go to find that? Is it just I mean, Google Maps ratings, I find have become more and more reliable. But is that is that a source or what would Google ratings, but actually the footing also lists cocktail bars.

So you've got both restaurants and cocktails. And then there's some specialists. There's Forrest Collins, who has a website and blog. I think her her nickname is 52 martinis. But her her her podcast is has a different name. But essentially, if you if you Google 52, martinis and Paris cocktails, you'll sort of get her expert list.

And she sort of made that her, her niche here. But but for a more general view, the footing has a great list. One thing that I've done in Paris and all of France is you can also get a bottle of wine, get some cheese gets a bit like just sit in a park.

So maybe talk about how to craft what would you do to craft just like a nice one of those experiences that maybe doesn't need a restaurant. That's a that's a great, a great option that honestly, I do on the regular, especially as we're getting into these. As you and I were talking about when we first jumped on on the chat, it was, you know, I was I was commenting on how it is, you know, set almost 730 here and it's still bright and light and in the heart of summer, you can go to the Canal Saint Martin or by the river and you know, you'll have light until well after 10pm.

So that makes it perfect for a picnic. But I would say, avoid the like student thing, which is going to like the supermarket and buying a supermarket bottle of wine, like go to go to a wine cellar or wine shop, make it a special thing. Figure out what region or what, you know, what kind of wine you want to drink red, white, orange, sparkling, whatever.

Figure out the region and then maybe ask the the the wine expert what they recommend pairing with it, what kinds of cheeses then go to the cheesemonger. I mean, so yeah, you can't do this too late at night, because obviously the shops close. But if you plan for it, you can really get some, you know, tremendous products and then sit outside and then see other people, mostly locals doing the same thing.

Love that it actually reminded me I had a good friend who gave me a couple recommendations from his recent trip. He said on the cheese side, from Audrey Lauren Dubois is like, oh, yeah, the place to a couple other random ones. He suggested were the Paris Philharmonic or Philharmonic.

He had to go out. Yeah, to go out. These are all all a bit across the board. But I was like, it just made me think to look it up. And the other is there's a street artist named invader, which has these great space invader. Yeah. And there's a cool app called flash invaders, where you can kind of collect all of them all over there all over France, like 1000s and 1000s over 1000 of these kind of space invader piece of art just in Paris.

And he said, you know, not only was it fun for him, but it was super fun for his kids to have a thing to like, go around Paris and collect and earn some points. And it kind of made the experience of wandering around the city, which might often make children kind of bored, it got them very excited.

And so those were his three tips. It keeps them very engaged, but also the adults because I have my husband does flash, does the app and plays the game. And, and I have several friends that do this. And then those with kids definitely do it with their kids. And so it's sort of like fun for everyone.

And the incentive is just to like gain a lot of points and then beat each other, or just be ranked higher than one another. But you know, what's interesting about it is in places like Versailles, or Fontainebleau, which have royal heritage, the mosaic tiles in the invaders themselves, or the, you know, whatever they're called, are very clever.

I mean, they're related to the place in many in many instances, especially in like smaller towns. So you'll have like, I think there's one of Napoleon somewhere. And so so it does create also sort of like semi educational, but also it's fun. Yeah, no, that's one thing where I was like, I really missed out on that on my trip.

He had one more recommendation, which is kind of in line with what you just mentioned with Versailles, which is, we talked about the broader regions of France, we talked about Paris, if someone's in Paris, and they're looking to go somewhere, but not too far. Are there some kind of day trips, or maybe overnight trips that you'd say someone should tack on?

And maybe that's how we'll leave people today? Yeah, I mean, Versailles is definitely the common one, but it's very overwhelming. And depending on when you go, it might be literally like everyone and their mother and their grandmother is there. And it can feel I know, it feels very dense and overwhelming.

But Fontainebleau is the other one that I would recommend because you get the chateau, you get the connection to, you know, it used to be the hunting lodge. I mean, lodge is a is a small word for what what it actually is, which is like essentially a palace, but it's where the kings would all go to when they were hunting and sort of a getaway.

And it's attached to this really lovely city, a town called Fontainebleau and you can have a meal, you can spend the night, you can go to the go to see the chateau. And then if you're an outdoorsy person, you can go to the forest, which is attached, like, you know, within walking distance or a quick a quick ride, which so it's called the Fontainebleau forest, and it is an internationally renowned destination for bouldering.

So like I said, my husband's a boulder and rock climber. This has been ever since I've known him the place he goes almost every weekend, but you you come across people who just want to hike. You can go walk around and pick a spot and then picnic. It really is a wonderful outdoor place.

So I would say for a day trip or an overnight, think about Fontainebleau. Awesome. The other one, my friend suggested was Puy de Fou. For wine. Well, no, he said it was kind of like a Oh, the amusement park. There's this amusement park that he enjoyed as a as an adult and thought was super interesting.

Children enjoyed and was like, this was the highlight. This was for him. It was the day trip highlight of the entire trip. And that's so interesting. It's thought it was the most amazing thing they've ever done. And he's like, and I loved it, too. I don't know if you've been there.

Well, no, I don't have any first day. And I also don't have kids. So like my that I it's not like my first instinct to go to a place like that. But that's very good to know. And I would say that's a much better idea than going to Disney, which is like very underwhelming when you've when or if you've experienced Disney in the US.

So skip Disney. Yeah, but Puy de Fou, I'm like, I've looked at the website and there's like people jumping in fire. And he described it as like, a mix of a show and a carnival and a renaissance fair. Yeah, with excellent food, which just kind of goes back to France is not going to have their own French amusement park with bad food.

And he I don't know, he just had wonderful things to say about it. So Ethan, thank you. Thank you for that tip and others. And that and then last thing, as people are getting around. We said Metro in Paris, is it train? Is it flights? How do you think about just kind of we, if people go back to the beginning of this and think, I'm going to add one or two regions, I'm going to do a day trip to Fontainebleau.

Is it all train? Or how do you think people should think logistically about getting around? I think that if you're gonna if you're gonna go somewhere and then be trying to see a lot of things in another region, you can get there by train. Most likely, I mean, they're, to be honest, you could do everything by train, it just might take you a while.

So places that are not on the high speed rail line, you can still access by train. But so imagine, let's say you're going to spend a whole week in Normandy, for example, I would say you could get there by train, but then you want to be able to pick up a car.

And so that might not make a lot of sense, given where maybe rental car rental spots are. So you know, from a place like Paris, you could rent a car and drive to Normandy or drive to some of these places if you plan on trying to discover a lot of things.

The Loire Valley is a place where you could actually do a like a bike trip, and discover the region entirely by bike because they have something like I don't know if it's like 800 miles of bike paths in this in the entire region. So it's sort of set up for that kind of experience.

And if you're going in to Provence, and you're not going to be staying in cities, and you're going to be going into villages and trying to drive around and see as much as you can see, you will need a car. But there, I'd say you could take a train from Paris, and then rent a car when you get down there near the train stations like Avignon, for example, or Aix-en-Provence or Marseille, and you can rent a car and then go from there.

The places where people tend to fly simply because it, you know, it can be faster or more direct is to like to Nice, to Biarritz and the western the southwestern coast. But there are very few places. You know, if you're, if you're not in any rush, and you like a long train ride, use the train system.

This has been so awesome. You know, so I feel like we didn't even come close to tapping all of your knowledge. But you share a lot on social, you have a digital restaurant guide, we're going to link to it in the show notes. You've even written books, if you want to listen, you know, so there's a lot of stuff you've done, but where can people find all of it?

And can they reach out and ask questions? Absolutely. So I think the easiest is probably just to find me on at Lindsey Tramuta calm, because then you can find my socials, you can find, you know, my newsletter, sign up, you can find my podcast, sign up, you can do it, find all the things you can find me from there.

And I'd be I'd be happy to chat. Any parting advice for someone thinking about a trip to France before we before we sign off? The only thing I would say is do a little bit of research, don't just come and be like, I'm going to wing everything, because I think that's where people get disappointed, especially when it comes with food, do a little bit of planning, and then leave the rest up to sort of, you know, whatever, whatever you feel like doing, whatever the mood into, you know, leads you to choose, but there is a minimum amount of planning that's really necessary to ensure you'll have the experience you deserve to have.

I look forward to doing that planning for the next trip. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks, Chris. I really enjoyed it. A bientot!