How To Be A Successful Product Manager: Insights from a Google expert

00:00:00.000 | [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:03.440 | Have you ever considered a career as a product manager?

00:00:10.320 | Or are you like me, and you question

00:00:12.120 | if you have enough technical product knowledge to even

00:00:14.600 | qualify?

00:00:16.320 | Perhaps you feel intimidated because you

00:00:18.520 | haven't managed a full lifecycle of a product before,

00:00:21.280 | or you're unfamiliar with how to forecast revenue.

00:00:25.840 | The thing about product management

00:00:27.260 | is that it means different things to different companies.

00:00:31.280 | It can vary by company size.

00:00:33.160 | And there are different entry points to get your foot in.

00:00:35.720 | So you should never stop yourself

00:00:37.040 | short when it comes to exploring what is

00:00:39.020 | the best opportunity for you.

00:00:41.700 | I don't know about you, but the best way

00:00:43.360 | to learn about what it means to be a product manager

00:00:45.640 | is to get actual, practical advice from someone doing

00:00:48.080 | the job right now, today.

00:00:50.880 | Someone to give you the real talk on what to expect,

00:00:54.380 | insights on the highs and the lows,

00:00:56.800 | and an inside perspective on what hiring managers are

00:00:59.780 | looking for.

00:01:00.800 | This person also needs to have credibility, which

00:01:03.080 | comes from having personally managed

00:01:04.760 | a diverse portfolio of products for different companies

00:01:07.460 | across hardware and software.

00:01:10.280 | So today, we're going to have a conversation with Kevin Ngo.

00:01:13.720 | He's a program lead on Google's Chrome OS

00:01:16.160 | and creator of Flowmask, which won the Biden administration's

00:01:19.640 | mask challenge in 2021.

00:01:22.760 | In this interview, he's going to cover

00:01:24.360 | a lot of practical topics, including

00:01:26.560 | how to build and prioritize your roadmap,

00:01:29.560 | the importance of knowing when to let something go,

00:01:33.360 | and what skills are important to succeed.

00:01:35.840 | And you know what?

00:01:36.820 | It may not be what you think.

00:01:38.640 | All right, let's get started.

00:01:40.360 | Hey, guys.

00:01:41.160 | Today, we're talking about product management.

00:01:43.300 | And with us is Kevin Ngo.

00:01:44.720 | Kevin, how are you doing?

00:01:45.880 | Hey, Tim.

00:01:46.380 | How's it going?

00:01:47.200 | Good.

00:01:47.680 | Kevin, I'll be honest.

00:01:48.720 | I've really been looking forward to this conversation

00:01:51.040 | because product management is probably the one field

00:01:55.240 | that I've always wondered if I should make a career shift to

00:01:57.680 | because I've worked in digital marketing my whole life

00:02:00.240 | and essentially manage the lifecycle of a website

00:02:02.680 | as a product.

00:02:03.600 | And so I kind of always wondered,

00:02:04.980 | do my skill sets translate?

00:02:07.200 | But I've always hesitated because in my mind,

00:02:09.400 | I really hold product management almost maybe too high

00:02:12.960 | of a bar above me.

00:02:14.120 | And so I kind of rule myself out.

00:02:15.860 | And I'm just kind of thinking right now

00:02:17.480 | with everyone entering the job market because of layoffs

00:02:20.800 | and whatnot, there might be a lot of people in my position

00:02:23.800 | who have the skills needed to make a shift to it,

00:02:27.240 | but I may be hesitant.

00:02:28.440 | And so I'd just love to kind of hear more about that

00:02:30.880 | because, again, I think they have a lot to learn from what

00:02:32.600 | you get to say.

00:02:33.640 | And so can you help us understand

00:02:35.800 | what you've done with product management,

00:02:38.120 | what you've worked with, what products you've managed,

00:02:40.520 | and then kind of where you are today?

00:02:42.880 | Yeah, absolutely.

00:02:44.040 | So first off, thanks for having me.

00:02:47.080 | I've been excited to join your podcast, obviously

00:02:51.960 | enthusiastic about sharing some of the experience

00:02:55.120 | I've had here in the Silicon Valley.

00:02:56.840 | And oddly enough, I was laid off in 2001

00:03:00.880 | as a software engineer, as a very young software engineer.

00:03:03.920 | And I went back to school for my MBA

00:03:08.000 | and ended up pivoting to product management

00:03:13.120 | at a time where it wasn't as popular of a role.

00:03:18.560 | I didn't feel like too many people

00:03:19.920 | knew what product management was.

00:03:21.400 | And so I think it's a great opportunity for people

00:03:26.760 | who are interested in pivoting their careers from what

00:03:30.400 | they're doing today.

00:03:32.000 | I personally am incredibly biased

00:03:34.160 | because I think it's the best job in the world.

00:03:37.080 | I tell everyone I meet to become a product manager.

00:03:41.120 | I've gotten the chance to do some incredible stuff,

00:03:44.680 | travel the world, and see my products come to life.

00:03:47.560 | And nothing gives me more pride than seeing stuff out

00:03:50.960 | in the real world.

00:03:51.920 | So absolutely, I would highly recommend that.

00:03:56.400 | So can you share some examples of products you've managed?

00:03:58.960 | Because I think everyone's dying to know.

00:04:00.720 | You and I, we met at Logitech, so I know about that.

00:04:02.880 | But yeah, tell us a little bit about what you've done.

00:04:06.360 | Yeah, for sure.

00:04:08.440 | It's been quite a wide range of things.

00:04:11.080 | But I would say, historically, I've

00:04:13.040 | done primarily accessories and peripherals

00:04:16.360 | for starting with the iPod, making accessories for that,

00:04:22.400 | then shifting to iPhone when that launched,

00:04:26.520 | working directly with Apple on their MFI program,

00:04:32.240 | transitioning to Logitech, working on PC accessories,

00:04:35.840 | then through webcams, then moving over

00:04:40.200 | to Barnes & Noble Nook when the e-reader industry was just

00:04:44.200 | firing up.

00:04:45.880 | I helped them scale an accessories business

00:04:48.840 | from $0 to $100 million in 24 months, transitioning

00:04:53.800 | to Motorola from there, continuing on my hardware

00:04:56.960 | journey, then kind of shifting over to more hardware/software.

00:05:02.320 | An intersection that I've had over the years

00:05:04.120 | is an intersection that I found that I truly love.

00:05:07.960 | So it's a place that--

00:05:10.080 | I was at this augmented reality company called Meta

00:05:12.680 | as their head of product there, where

00:05:16.080 | we're doing futuristic headsets with augmented reality,

00:05:20.520 | seeing holograms, and getting all the software applications

00:05:23.760 | to run to power that stuff.

00:05:26.320 | And then for the first time ever,

00:05:29.360 | doing full software at a company called Elementum,

00:05:33.240 | where we were trying to develop supply chain

00:05:37.080 | cloud-based applications.

00:05:40.080 | And since then, I've been at Google doing program management

00:05:43.560 | on the Chromebook team.

00:05:45.400 | So that is a freaking amazing history.

00:05:48.800 | And the question that comes to mind right away

00:05:51.920 | is those products, while they share similarities,

00:05:56.760 | they're also very, very different, right?

00:05:58.840 | And going from software and hardware.

00:06:01.840 | And one of the things that I've always told myself--

00:06:05.040 | or actually, the reason why I told myself

00:06:06.640 | I couldn't do these job roles is because maybe I

00:06:08.640 | didn't have the full, deep, technical knowledge

00:06:11.480 | of said product to be able to do that.

00:06:13.840 | But you're kind of illustrating to me

00:06:15.400 | that you've somehow been able to shift

00:06:17.360 | into each of these categories and probably become an expert

00:06:19.840 | while you're on the job.

00:06:20.920 | Absolutely.

00:06:21.640 | Can you help us understand, what is that mindset?

00:06:23.800 | When you shift and going to a completely new and foreign

00:06:26.600 | product category, how do you do that?

00:06:28.560 | Yeah, it's funny, because I don't

00:06:30.720 | think I am truly an expert at an engineering level.

00:06:35.200 | But I can kind of hold my own.

00:06:37.240 | And we're talking categories that range from RF devices

00:06:43.520 | to audio products, where you have to understand frequency

00:06:47.000 | response, to image quality with webcams,

00:06:50.840 | to now a lot of the stuff I'm doing at Google,

00:06:54.320 | where there's a lot of interactions with Chrome OS

00:06:57.040 | and operating system.

00:06:58.600 | Though, I think the one commonality

00:07:01.480 | that I've realized over the years,

00:07:03.920 | and it's something that I'm trying to champion,

00:07:07.000 | somehow instill in my kids, is a level

00:07:11.080 | of entrepreneurial spirit.

00:07:13.440 | And I feel like if you embody that sense

00:07:18.040 | of entrepreneurial spirit, you can figure stuff out,

00:07:21.840 | no matter what you're thrown into.

00:07:24.240 | And leveraging that hustle of figuring stuff out,

00:07:29.800 | learning, being enthusiastic about learning because you're

00:07:32.320 | excited about this category that you're diving into,

00:07:37.960 | I'm 100% confident, Tim, you can do it as well.

00:07:41.600 | I think anyone can do it, honestly,

00:07:43.160 | because I've proven that I can transition

00:07:46.760 | from very different industries and categories

00:07:50.800 | and learning new things and kind of becoming

00:07:54.360 | almost an expert at all of them.

00:07:56.840 | Yeah.

00:07:57.440 | Yeah, yeah.

00:08:00.040 | Again, I think product management

00:08:01.480 | is one of the most incredible roles out there in the world,

00:08:04.600 | and it gives everyone an opportunity

00:08:06.560 | to flex their entrepreneurial spirit.

00:08:10.120 | Yeah, and I think we'll save this part of the conversation

00:08:13.240 | for later in the video, because we want to definitely dive deep

00:08:15.920 | into the skills you require, or even the aptitude,

00:08:19.720 | and maybe job experience, or indirect, right?

00:08:21.960 | And how do you make yourself stand out?

00:08:23.560 | Because things like entrepreneurial spirit,

00:08:26.160 | it reads kind of weird on paper.

00:08:27.840 | And so it's like, how do you get that to come out

00:08:29.520 | in an interview, for example?

00:08:30.400 | So let's definitely talk about that.

00:08:31.840 | But before we get there, maybe let's set the baseline here

00:08:34.680 | for a second.

00:08:35.560 | So product management, I'll use myself as an example.

00:08:38.760 | My view or understanding of product management

00:08:41.240 | is actually probably very minimal compared

00:08:44.360 | to the breadth that is the field.

00:08:46.800 | And I think that limited view actually

00:08:49.600 | cuts off all the opportunities for me,

00:08:51.360 | because I don't even know what to look for.

00:08:53.160 | So can you help us understand, first of all,

00:08:56.000 | what are the key responsibilities and challenges

00:08:58.960 | you face as a product manager?

00:09:00.600 | And can you help us understand maybe the breadth of the field?

00:09:03.840 | Yeah, I think every company has their own definition

00:09:07.560 | of what a product manager is.

00:09:09.800 | Historically for me, and a lot of the companies I've been at,

00:09:14.280 | has positioned it more as you are a mini GM, general manager

00:09:21.240 | within your domain of portfolio of products that you own,

00:09:26.080 | and do whatever it takes to make it successful.

00:09:29.800 | So I think that definitely is something that happens often.

00:09:34.000 | But you get into fields that are more like technical product

00:09:38.000 | manager, where you kind of need that engineering background,

00:09:42.240 | engine features.

00:09:43.320 | But I would say the overall general definition

00:09:49.520 | of what product management should be

00:09:51.240 | is understanding the marketplace,

00:09:54.840 | understanding the market opportunity,

00:09:57.360 | knowing who your competitors are,

00:10:00.000 | figuring out a strategy that allows your company

00:10:03.640 | to enter the market and be successful at it.

00:10:07.560 | But more than anything, is balancing the business aspects,

00:10:12.480 | but also embracing the user experience,

00:10:16.200 | and really putting yourself in the shoes of the user,

00:10:18.920 | or understanding data that helps you drive your product

00:10:23.120 | features and capabilities to delivering something that

00:10:26.080 | is delightful, that people love to use,

00:10:29.000 | and want to use it every single day,

00:10:31.200 | and become obsessed over your product.

00:10:34.240 | That's essentially what product managers should be doing,

00:10:37.240 | in addition to writing product requirements documents,

00:10:40.520 | working with engineering teams, and program management teams

00:10:44.120 | to execute and deliver.

00:10:46.120 | I mean, it isn't for the faint hearted,

00:10:51.120 | I got to say, because there's a lot of stuff happening

00:10:54.240 | at the same time all the time.

00:10:55.760 | But you're never going to be bored.

00:10:59.360 | I can promise you that.

00:11:01.360 | Yeah, that's such a good point.

00:11:03.520 | And actually, I really appreciate

00:11:04.880 | that walkthrough and breakdown, because it

00:11:07.480 | helps me understand, there's some things that you said there

00:11:10.480 | that I feel really comfortable with.

00:11:11.760 | And there's some things that might be a little foreign

00:11:14.000 | to me, right?

00:11:14.800 | And there's an aspect of it where

00:11:16.960 | I can probably bring some of that with me,

00:11:18.840 | and somebody can learn on the job.

00:11:20.280 | I think the areas of things are like,

00:11:22.600 | how do you forecast or project opportunity,

00:11:25.160 | or forecast revenue or growth based on a feature

00:11:28.400 | that you create?

00:11:29.440 | How do you get that down to a science?

00:11:31.280 | If I'm going to add a feature to a product,

00:11:34.240 | how do I project that the return on that investment

00:11:37.200 | of development would yield x return for a company?

00:11:39.320 | How do you think about that?

00:11:41.520 | Yeah, it's definitely not easy.

00:11:46.120 | I haven't seen any company, honestly, be successful at it.

00:11:52.800 | I've had some struggles with forecasting

00:11:54.840 | as good as the team is.

00:11:58.560 | There are always so many forces in place

00:12:03.240 | that you just can't predict, whether it's

00:12:05.560 | the economy or a competitor launches something better.

00:12:10.280 | So from a forecasting standpoint,

00:12:12.360 | there are multiple ways of looking at it.

00:12:14.080 | There is the bottoms up of what customers have agreed

00:12:18.360 | to buy such and such product.

00:12:20.400 | Maybe it's an existing product that you're refreshing

00:12:23.360 | or a new product that you're entering.

00:12:24.960 | So your sales team needs to determine

00:12:27.720 | what they think they can do.

00:12:29.240 | Or you can also look at if you're a completely new company

00:12:33.640 | starting out of sizing the market,

00:12:36.560 | what is the total addressable market?

00:12:38.120 | And what do you think you can do based on that slice of pie

00:12:42.040 | that you're aiming for and trying to compute

00:12:46.040 | what your potential opportunity is within that market space?

00:12:49.400 | So forecasting, I say, is one of the hardest things.

00:12:54.960 | And I don't think any company has truly perfected it

00:12:57.600 | from what I've seen.

00:12:59.320 | Would you say your business school experience,

00:13:03.280 | obviously that helps with a lot of things

00:13:05.480 | you just talked about here, is in what areas

00:13:07.800 | do you feel like that really contributed

00:13:09.800 | to your current success versus what aspects of product

00:13:13.240 | marketing can you succeed without having

00:13:15.120 | had that education?

00:13:18.280 | I contribute a lot of my introduction

00:13:22.960 | to product management due to the MBA

00:13:25.840 | because, honestly, coming out as a computer science major,

00:13:32.160 | you know nothing about marketing.

00:13:33.920 | You barely scratch the surface on emotional intelligence,

00:13:38.560 | any of that.

00:13:40.200 | Finance, looking at financial statements,

00:13:43.320 | things like that for the very first time.

00:13:46.240 | Yeah, we're really good at math.

00:13:47.880 | But do you know how to look at a financial statement

00:13:51.480 | or control cash flow, things like that?

00:13:56.360 | Those are all skills that you learn

00:13:57.920 | going through an MBA program.

00:13:59.680 | And it gives you a taste of everything

00:14:04.000 | a product manager touches, which I think

00:14:06.920 | was the best crash course for me because I fell in love

00:14:10.760 | with marketing the moment I took my first marketing class.

00:14:13.360 | And unfortunately, that didn't happen

00:14:15.840 | until I was going through for my MBA.

00:14:19.160 | And then I learned about what it takes

00:14:21.600 | to motivate people from a management standpoint.

00:14:24.160 | So again, you're going to be working cross-functionally.

00:14:26.800 | How do you get your engineering team, program management team,

00:14:29.760 | your sales team to all want to put in their energy and time

00:14:35.120 | into making your product successful?

00:14:38.400 | Thinking about finance, how to run a breakeven point.

00:14:43.000 | I didn't really learn that until later on from a sizing

00:14:48.400 | standpoint of all the money we're

00:14:50.000 | spending to develop products.

00:14:51.560 | So these things are so valuable.

00:14:54.360 | And they were tools that I gained, again,

00:14:58.200 | not being experts at, but at least getting a flavor of it

00:15:02.120 | so that when it does happen in the job,

00:15:05.200 | I'm like, I've seen that before.

00:15:07.600 | It's not foreign to me.

00:15:08.760 | I think I can handle this is the type of attitude

00:15:13.760 | I come into it.

00:15:15.520 | Yeah, that's really good.

00:15:16.600 | It actually kind of makes me think of,

00:15:18.400 | like you mentioned before, it's essentially

00:15:20.160 | like you're owning your own company, end to end.

00:15:22.800 | And it reminds me of my brother, who is a dentist.

00:15:25.760 | And he wanted to start his own practice.

00:15:27.400 | And as a dentist, you're focused on one discipline.

00:15:30.120 | But learning how to build a business

00:15:32.320 | requires exercising of muscles that he didn't even

00:15:34.320 | know existed.

00:15:35.240 | And for him, he had to learn it on the job.

00:15:37.880 | It was kind of painful, like people management,

00:15:40.200 | the financial aspect of stuff.

00:15:41.520 | So I think you're right.

00:15:42.520 | I think going into product management,

00:15:44.560 | it is probably good for anyone considering this field

00:15:47.760 | to do the due diligence of what it actually

00:15:49.920 | means to own a full product, end to end,

00:15:53.120 | and uncover those areas of study.

00:15:54.920 | And to your point, you can either go through an MBA,

00:15:57.640 | or if people don't have the financial means to do that,

00:16:00.120 | there's a lot of content available out there,

00:16:02.800 | resources available for you to do that.

00:16:05.880 | Kevin, I'm kind of wondering, as you're looking at--

00:16:09.520 | because we're talking about forecasting

00:16:11.160 | and doing competitive, right?

00:16:13.000 | There's always going to be a long list of stuff

00:16:15.400 | that you want to develop.

00:16:16.640 | It could be a reaction to a new feature or service

00:16:20.000 | that a competitor announced.

00:16:21.840 | It could be a reaction to maybe something

00:16:24.720 | that your senior executive stakeholders are focused on

00:16:27.280 | and the roadmap they develop.

00:16:28.600 | And then there's probably roadmaps

00:16:29.960 | informed by customers, right?

00:16:31.640 | Or by the sales team or technical sales.

00:16:34.400 | How do you go about prioritizing which ones to do first?

00:16:40.520 | Man, that is a really tough question.

00:16:42.400 | I think some of that comes with experience.

00:16:48.240 | And in those situations, kind of focus on the user.

00:16:55.280 | Because if I develop a product that the user absolutely loves,

00:17:00.840 | everything else you describe kind of falls into place.

00:17:03.600 | That isn't easy, though, because if you're

00:17:09.800 | working in tech, tech changes so quickly.

00:17:13.200 | How do you maintain and stay ahead of things?

00:17:17.000 | It's not easy.

00:17:17.880 | And one of the things I've--

00:17:20.360 | I think one of the best lessons I've ever

00:17:22.080 | learned in product management-- and I

00:17:24.080 | see this failure often with product managers--

00:17:28.320 | is this desire to launch because they

00:17:33.200 | have been so emotionally invested in a product

00:17:37.000 | that they can't let go when it's time to kill a project.

00:17:42.120 | I've-- more than anyone, I've been guilty of that.

00:17:46.000 | But there was an instance where we were developing

00:17:50.080 | a new set of headphones.

00:17:52.000 | And we just couldn't get the ergonomics perfect.

00:17:56.280 | We couldn't get the curvature of the style and design

00:17:59.920 | that we wanted.

00:18:00.600 | And we were in development for a year.

00:18:04.320 | And at the time, I wanted to push forward.

00:18:08.280 | And my boss asked me, do you still

00:18:12.480 | love it as much as we did the first day

00:18:14.640 | when we conceived of this idea and the design and everything?

00:18:18.720 | And I-- there was a lot of soul searching.

00:18:21.960 | And I said, I don't anymore.

00:18:25.320 | And she said, yes, because if you don't love it,

00:18:28.440 | think about the ramifications of bringing a product to market

00:18:31.760 | where you don't love anymore, and you're just

00:18:34.720 | the grind of delivering.

00:18:37.320 | The customer probably won't love it as much as you do.

00:18:42.360 | And then we're going to buy inventory.

00:18:44.440 | It's going to sit--

00:18:45.520 | it's going to tie up cash flow.

00:18:47.960 | If it doesn't sell because it's whatever,

00:18:50.520 | like many, many months past due, so now it's

00:18:54.640 | a little bit outdated, then we're

00:18:56.640 | going to have to slash our cost, which

00:18:59.920 | means that we're going to take a hit on margins

00:19:02.640 | and profitability, which then ties up cash flow

00:19:06.040 | to do other things, right?

00:19:08.680 | If you were to bet on other projects,

00:19:10.880 | wouldn't that be a better use of your cash flow?

00:19:12.880 | So that was a really good lesson.

00:19:15.000 | And funny enough, I think it was about three or six months

00:19:18.760 | later, she asked me, hey, do you remember that project?

00:19:22.040 | And I was like, yeah, it was the best decision we ever made.

00:19:25.280 | And we never looked back.

00:19:28.000 | I think those are some of the hard lessons

00:19:29.880 | that product managers need to learn,

00:19:32.000 | because it's like giving birth to a baby.

00:19:34.560 | You've been coddling it for so long.

00:19:37.720 | And it's hard to let go, but sometimes you just have to.

00:19:42.080 | But when you do, you're able to move on and have clarity again

00:19:46.560 | as to what you should be doing, what

00:19:48.520 | you know can be more successful.

00:19:52.520 | It's easy to say this.

00:19:54.600 | It is really hard to actually execute on it.

00:19:58.360 | And I hope all those product managers out there

00:20:02.520 | are listening intently, because the ramifications of not letting

00:20:07.240 | go can be detrimental to your business.

00:20:11.160 | Yeah, that's such a good point.

00:20:13.240 | And I've actually never thought about that way.

00:20:15.280 | And it makes me actually wonder.

00:20:18.480 | So I'm going to use marketing as an example,

00:20:21.000 | but I would love to see the product equivalent of this.

00:20:23.880 | There are times where, let's say we're running a campaign,

00:20:27.400 | or we are trying to promote a specific report or asset,

00:20:31.920 | and after staring at the same thing for six months,

00:20:36.480 | even though it started at a place where we're really

00:20:38.680 | passionate about it and the customers love it, for example,

00:20:41.720 | we get kind of almost lazy in taking it for granted.

00:20:46.160 | In some cases, kind of getting tired of it,

00:20:48.040 | whereas our customers are probably

00:20:49.600 | seeing it for the first time.

00:20:50.800 | So they're excited about it, but our freshness

00:20:53.320 | is gone.

00:20:54.440 | And I'm kind of wondering, when you are looking at a product,

00:20:57.640 | especially a product that's very mature, let's say,

00:21:01.720 | how do you ever run into a hurdle

00:21:03.600 | where you have to maybe reinvigorate your passion?

00:21:06.440 | And let's say, for instance, for example, a solution here

00:21:10.200 | is not to pull the record and bail out and find

00:21:13.120 | another product.

00:21:13.920 | Let's say you need to stay within the product

00:21:15.720 | to continue to be successful.

00:21:17.160 | How do you kind of re-engage and rediscover

00:21:20.280 | the passion if you've been doing the same thing

00:21:22.400 | for, let's say, 10 to 15 years?

00:21:23.560 | So first off, maybe a little bit about my personality.

00:21:30.640 | I wake up every morning with that passion.

00:21:34.880 | It's never lost.

00:21:36.440 | But passion for a project that's kind of just dragging,

00:21:41.400 | I could see that.

00:21:44.240 | Yeah, I think it comes down to what your mission is

00:21:48.640 | from the get-go.

00:21:51.360 | A mission that you and your team have a strong passion for.

00:22:00.040 | With that, the drive shouldn't be gone,

00:22:04.480 | even if your customers are seeing it for the first time

00:22:06.760 | and you guys have been working on it for some time.

00:22:08.880 | But think about how to continue to innovate.

00:22:11.080 | Think about how to leapfrog the market.

00:22:13.880 | Think about how to take advantage of maybe the head

00:22:18.080 | start that you've got if customers are loving it

00:22:20.320 | and everyone's seeing it for the first time.

00:22:22.600 | How do you continue to push that envelope so that number two

00:22:25.800 | and number three are so far behind where you guys are?

00:22:29.960 | I see that quite a bit with a lot of the Apple stuff

00:22:33.240 | that's launching with their earphones.

00:22:35.160 | When they launched the AirPods, so far ahead of everyone else

00:22:40.600 | in terms of the quality and getting audio to hit both ears

00:22:49.040 | and for everyone else to catch up and getting that form factor

00:22:52.440 | very tiny and small at that performance that they got

00:22:55.160 | with the noise cancellation.

00:22:57.200 | I mean, they're leaps and bounds ahead of everyone.

00:23:00.040 | And even with the Apple Watch, people trying to catch up,

00:23:03.920 | they're so far ahead.

00:23:06.320 | If you do have that lead, and yeah, it

00:23:08.400 | might feel a little stale because it's

00:23:09.960 | something you've been working on for some time,

00:23:11.920 | but go back to the mission that you're focused on.

00:23:14.200 | Think about the mission that you and your team

00:23:16.400 | are dedicated to and use that as your North Star

00:23:19.920 | versus this is just one project that's kind of dragging.

00:23:23.960 | I love that.

00:23:25.000 | And I think if you tie that with something

00:23:26.920 | you said earlier, which is focused on the customer,

00:23:29.960 | I think that's where you can derive a lot of innovation

00:23:32.200 | because customer needs are always changing.

00:23:34.000 | And again, if you're trying to deliver the best

00:23:35.960 | experience for a customer and they're

00:23:37.920 | evolving with age groups as well,

00:23:40.120 | it shouldn't ever be boring.

00:23:42.840 | Your desire to stay ahead is critical.

00:23:45.400 | And actually, I'm kind of even wondering,

00:23:47.080 | how do you go about looking at potential of a feature

00:23:51.960 | or product or is a category that may not exist yet?

00:23:55.880 | And you probably have all of these pie-in-the-sky ideas.

00:23:59.840 | How do you go grab maybe the one that you feel like, hey,

00:24:03.280 | this might actually be something based

00:24:05.880 | on what you're seeing from industry trends

00:24:07.560 | or technology trends.

00:24:08.520 | Can you give some examples of that or even one?

00:24:10.800 | Yeah.

00:24:13.280 | In those situations, I think it's

00:24:15.000 | really good to test with your people within your circle

00:24:20.480 | and gauge, is there some level of excitement

00:24:25.480 | behind something that's never been seen before?

00:24:27.440 | An example is I do some of my own personal projects

00:24:34.880 | and I was one of the first to develop a respirator

00:24:38.560 | mask for kids.

00:24:40.040 | And it's never been seen before and it was a super hard

00:24:44.440 | challenge because there was nothing to reference.

00:24:49.760 | But knowing that there was a need for it

00:24:52.400 | and a desire for it with all the wildfire smoke

00:24:54.800 | we get here in California, it was something

00:24:58.360 | that I was testing with a lot of parents

00:25:00.280 | to see and gauge, is this something

00:25:02.400 | they would be interested in?

00:25:03.560 | And then obviously working closely with kids

00:25:05.400 | to see if this is something that they would wear,

00:25:07.560 | if it's going to help protect them.

00:25:10.840 | And it's making sure that you're keeping them involved.

00:25:17.600 | I had, again, hustling to get things through.

00:25:21.760 | I created a small Facebook group with close moms and dads

00:25:27.760 | that are friends of mine and making sure

00:25:29.760 | that they're very open and honest about their feedback.

00:25:33.640 | So as I went through the development cycle,

00:25:36.560 | it was great to get their feedback as to whether the cost

00:25:39.720 | was too high, if I addressed their protection concerns,

00:25:45.440 | and then obviously making sure that the kids were involved

00:25:48.120 | in testing and trying it out.

00:25:50.200 | So things that have never been done before

00:25:53.720 | are, I think, one of the most challenging

00:25:55.680 | because there's nothing to reference against and learn

00:25:58.640 | from where their pitfalls are.

00:26:01.000 | Obviously, there were masks out there,

00:26:03.080 | but those things weren't even in the same playing field

00:26:06.400 | as what we were looking to develop.

00:26:08.920 | Yeah, and just for everyone viewing,

00:26:10.640 | you're referring to Flowmask.

00:26:11.800 | Is that right?

00:26:12.280 | No, absolutely.

00:26:13.240 | Yeah, and everyone, there's going to be--

00:26:15.320 | actually, Kevin and I are going to do a separate video

00:26:17.560 | going specifically into Flowmask.

00:26:19.320 | I think it's a really interesting study

00:26:21.000 | on taking a product from conception to market,

00:26:24.440 | starting a new business from the ground up,

00:26:26.600 | and being award winning.

00:26:28.000 | And he's very-- you're not touting your own horn here,

00:26:31.280 | but I'll give you all the credibility.

00:26:32.840 | Shout out there.

00:26:33.560 | So make sure you guys subscribe to this

00:26:35.360 | because you'll want to see that video when it comes out.

00:26:36.800 | There's going to be a lot to be learned because I'm actually

00:26:39.000 | even interested in even things like branding and naming

00:26:41.720 | of the product, as well as, again,

00:26:44.000 | you just mentioned now, getting feedback and research

00:26:46.280 | with your customers.

00:26:47.880 | So that's fantastic.

00:26:49.160 | I can't wait to get there.

00:26:51.280 | Can we just pivot a little bit?

00:26:52.680 | Earlier, we had talked about skills and aptitudes

00:26:56.480 | that you've experienced on the job.

00:26:58.400 | Can you maybe outline, when you're

00:27:00.280 | looking to hire someone to be a product manager on your team,

00:27:05.000 | from a entry level all the way up to senior?

00:27:08.560 | What hard or soft skills are you looking for?

00:27:11.440 | You mentioned attitude earlier, the hustle and entrepreneurial.

00:27:15.480 | But is there anything else you're looking for?

00:27:17.680 | Yeah, for sure.

00:27:20.000 | I think it's really important to make sure

00:27:22.080 | that person has interest in the category

00:27:25.160 | that you're working on.

00:27:26.600 | If there is no passion, then it's going to be a challenge.

00:27:30.160 | So that's number one.

00:27:31.400 | Number two would be, do they have

00:27:34.480 | that entrepreneurial spirit?

00:27:37.600 | Do they think like an entrepreneur?

00:27:39.600 | Because an entrepreneur will find any crack

00:27:43.720 | to capitalize on and take advantage of to be successful.

00:27:49.240 | I oftentimes ask, share a product that you love and why.

00:27:54.920 | And if they're going about the approach methodically,

00:27:59.640 | the way a product manager would, then

00:28:02.120 | I can see that they've got some of that skill set and sense

00:28:06.520 | in it.

00:28:08.880 | I think one of the other challenges

00:28:10.400 | I try to look for is someone with grit.

00:28:13.680 | Because of every project I've ever developed,

00:28:17.880 | and I've done over 100 hardware projects

00:28:20.640 | over the last 20 years, that last 5%

00:28:24.320 | of getting it to ship and launched in the marketplace

00:28:27.840 | is probably harder than the 95% it took to get there.

00:28:32.760 | Can you tell us about that?

00:28:33.880 | Yeah, tell us more about that.

00:28:35.200 | Yeah, the finishing touches, making sure

00:28:37.720 | that you met every qualification and expectation

00:28:41.400 | that you had originally when you developed it.

00:28:43.920 | Can you do it at scale to manufacture at high volumes?

00:28:48.200 | Can you do it in a way where the cost structure is feasible

00:28:53.360 | so you're getting the proper yield rate

00:28:54.920 | that you're aiming for?

00:28:56.840 | All these things have to come into place.

00:28:59.960 | And just making sure that, again, at the end,

00:29:02.360 | do you still love it from the day

00:29:03.880 | you originally conceived of it?

00:29:05.920 | And making sure that that sense of feeling is still there.

00:29:12.760 | And making sure that you're able to get it across the finish

00:29:15.240 | line so that you can bring it to the world

00:29:17.440 | and let everyone else experience what

00:29:19.120 | you've been working on for the last all-plus months.

00:29:22.800 | So how do you distinguish yourself,

00:29:25.400 | whether it's on a resume or cover letter?

00:29:27.320 | Because, again, there's going to be a lot of resumes

00:29:29.160 | that look the same, right?

00:29:30.240 | Because you have a job description.

00:29:32.080 | You try to match that, right?

00:29:33.280 | But how do you set yourself apart

00:29:34.720 | to even get that first interview with you?

00:29:38.280 | That's a really good question.

00:29:41.120 | Obviously, the recruiters have to do

00:29:42.920 | a lot of digging ahead of time.

00:29:44.960 | But I share kind of an overview of what

00:29:47.840 | I'm looking for when we do talk about roles.

00:29:51.480 | And everything I just described to you

00:29:54.440 | are things I'm looking for.

00:29:56.680 | It's less about the school.

00:29:59.520 | But it's more about the attitude.

00:30:01.320 | It's more about the right level of experience

00:30:04.120 | that we're looking for in terms of if it's

00:30:06.960 | going to be more of a technical role, where

00:30:09.880 | they do need to have some level of technical knowledge.

00:30:13.360 | I think that's going to be important.

00:30:14.880 | Like, you can't just jump into hardware

00:30:16.920 | without knowing how products are made.

00:30:18.840 | I think that's going to be really challenging.

00:30:20.720 | Unless you're going to come in as an associate product

00:30:23.000 | manager, yeah, it totally makes sense.

00:30:24.800 | But then again, I go to, well, have you

00:30:28.000 | managed a business before?

00:30:31.120 | Do you have some of those skills?

00:30:33.960 | Obviously, during the interview, it'll

00:30:35.560 | be really important to see how strong

00:30:39.920 | is their emotional intelligence in solving

00:30:41.760 | some of these problems, potential conflicts

00:30:44.520 | with colleagues and your cross-functional teams.

00:30:47.800 | That is so critical to success as a product manager.

00:30:52.680 | But specifically on the resume, that's a tough one.

00:30:57.520 | It's going to be making sure that--

00:30:59.280 | I guess I look more for things that show me that you've

00:31:06.520 | been running a business.

00:31:07.600 | I feel like if you've been doing that,

00:31:09.880 | you can figure everything else out.

00:31:11.400 | And kind of going back to the very first question

00:31:13.880 | you asked of the fact that you don't

00:31:16.480 | feel like your background is geared

00:31:19.320 | towards product management, I have never

00:31:21.960 | met product managers with the exact same background.

00:31:25.000 | It's not like a computer science programmer that

00:31:27.920 | had a computer science degree.

00:31:32.120 | Product managers come from all walks of life.

00:31:34.120 | And I think that's one of the beauties of the role

00:31:36.520 | is that you can have people coming from biology or QA,

00:31:42.240 | people who come from customer support.

00:31:46.080 | I've seen people from all walks of life

00:31:49.000 | and all prior job experiences step right into the role

00:31:53.200 | and be successful because it's the little bits of experience

00:31:57.600 | they brought from their previous job that adds on

00:32:00.360 | to what product management is.

00:32:02.440 | And that's why I love product management so much.

00:32:05.600 | That's a great response.

00:32:06.680 | And I think you called out a lot of things

00:32:09.480 | that are really important.

00:32:10.600 | I think construction of your resume

00:32:13.000 | that allows you to even tell a story is really important.

00:32:16.000 | And you might think, oh, well, I'm

00:32:17.400 | limited to bullet points.

00:32:18.440 | Well, what you share those bullet points

00:32:20.920 | or the data you unveiled to tell the story in itself

00:32:24.600 | illustrates your level of confidence or capability there.

00:32:27.400 | And so I would definitely spend some time looking at that.

00:32:30.040 | Because again, to your point, you

00:32:31.400 | got to somehow tell the story without telling the story.

00:32:34.440 | Unlike a cover letter, right?

00:32:35.720 | And maybe the cover letter or your portfolio

00:32:37.840 | is where you can, again, dive a little deeper into that.

00:32:41.640 | So I just got one more question for you, Kevin.

00:32:43.920 | For someone who's a current practitioner as a PM,

00:32:48.120 | what does growth opportunity look like to them?

00:32:50.640 | You've evolved from product management

00:32:53.040 | to program management at Google.

00:32:54.840 | What's the potential of a product manager?

00:32:56.840 | I think oftentimes, product managers

00:33:01.840 | end up spinning off and starting their own thing.

00:33:04.880 | They're so well-rounded in terms of knowing

00:33:07.800 | how to work with different groups

00:33:09.760 | and knowing how to identify market opportunities.

00:33:13.840 | Oftentimes, I've seen a lot of product managers

00:33:16.880 | kind of start their own business.

00:33:20.280 | But growth opportunities, it's massive.

00:33:23.000 | Because you're learning to be a mini-CEO within your company

00:33:27.360 | and learning all the skill sets that

00:33:30.720 | are required to drive a business to success.

00:33:34.240 | So whether you want to stay in that same industry

00:33:38.600 | or if you want to transition out to another company that

00:33:43.360 | does something that you can bring your skill set to

00:33:46.840 | and help them grow that business,

00:33:49.920 | I almost feel like you have this core set of skills that

00:33:56.160 | allow you to make businesses successful.

00:33:58.400 | Doesn't matter what business it is.

00:33:59.960 | And you can just parachute that person in,

00:34:02.720 | and they'll figure out how to make that business thrive.

00:34:05.600 | So I definitely see that as being part of it.

00:34:09.680 | But it's a skill set that is constantly evolving.

00:34:13.640 | And it's never ending in terms of the knowledge base

00:34:18.240 | that you can gain.

00:34:19.040 | So even for myself, I continue to obsess over the user

00:34:22.720 | experience and think about, what can I do better for the user?

00:34:26.080 | How can I reduce the number of steps

00:34:28.160 | it takes to maybe, say, set up a peripheral?

00:34:33.080 | Those little things, all the way to when I was at Logitech,

00:34:36.560 | we had the customer support number

00:34:38.440 | at the very back of the user manual.

00:34:40.360 | And it's like, why is it back there and not at the front?

00:34:43.800 | Little things like that.

00:34:47.320 | Thinking differently, I think, is a pretty big thing.

00:34:49.800 | And that's another thing about product management

00:34:52.400 | is that you're allowed to have this massive creative space

00:34:55.640 | to push the envelope.

00:34:57.280 | And you're wearing the hat that gives you that authority

00:35:01.760 | as well.

00:35:02.320 | But obviously, you want to make sure everyone else is

00:35:06.120 | willing to join you for the ride.

00:35:09.200 | Well, Kevin, this was great.

00:35:10.520 | And I just want to thank you for your time.

00:35:12.320 | There's so much that we learned from you today.

00:35:14.360 | And I think for people who are considering this

00:35:17.080 | as a new field or current practitioners,

00:35:19.120 | there's a lot of really good advice you gave there.

00:35:21.240 | So I just want to thank you for your time.

00:35:23.040 | Just to remind everybody, Flowmask

00:35:25.680 | is definitely something we want to talk about in depth.

00:35:27.960 | You'll want to stick around for that.

00:35:29.520 | And so make sure you like, subscribe,

00:35:31.440 | and hit the notification bell, so you'll

00:35:33.200 | be notified when that's available.

00:35:35.120 | Thanks a lot, Kevin.

00:35:36.320 | Thanks, Sam.

00:35:37.080 | Appreciate it.

00:35:37.760 | Thank you.

00:35:38.240 | Oh, one more question, Kevin.

00:35:39.640 | If you're open to it, how can people find you?

00:35:41.640 | How can they find their way to Flowmask or anything else?

00:35:45.960 | Yeah, if you guys want to check out Flowmask,

00:35:48.000 | you can visit our website at f-l-o-m-a-s-k dot com.

00:35:54.720 | I'm obviously on LinkedIn.

00:35:56.400 | So feel free to reach out to me there.

00:35:59.520 | But yeah, I'd be happy to engage and give back

00:36:03.680 | to all those new budding product managers that

00:36:06.600 | are looking to do a career pivot.

00:36:09.560 | Thanks a lot, Kevin.

00:36:10.480 | Yep, thanks, too.

00:36:11.280 | See you later.

00:36:12.840 | you

00:36:14.900 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

How To Be A Successful Product Manager: Insights from a Google expert

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