Have you ever considered a career as a product manager? Or are you like me, and you question if you have enough technical product knowledge to even qualify? Perhaps you feel intimidated because you haven't managed a full lifecycle of a product before, or you're unfamiliar with how to forecast revenue.

The thing about product management is that it means different things to different companies. It can vary by company size. And there are different entry points to get your foot in. So you should never stop yourself short when it comes to exploring what is the best opportunity for you. I don't know about you, but the best way to learn about what it means to be a product manager is to get actual, practical advice from someone doing the job right now, today.

Someone to give you the real talk on what to expect, insights on the highs and the lows, and an inside perspective on what hiring managers are looking for. This person also needs to have credibility, which comes from having personally managed a diverse portfolio of products for different companies across hardware and software.

So today, we're going to have a conversation with Kevin Ngo. He's a program lead on Google's Chrome OS and creator of Flowmask, which won the Biden administration's mask challenge in 2021. In this interview, he's going to cover a lot of practical topics, including how to build and prioritize your roadmap, the importance of knowing when to let something go, and what skills are important to succeed.

And you know what? It may not be what you think. All right, let's get started. Hey, guys. Today, we're talking about product management. And with us is Kevin Ngo. Kevin, how are you doing? Hey, Tim. How's it going? Good. Kevin, I'll be honest. I've really been looking forward to this conversation because product management is probably the one field that I've always wondered if I should make a career shift to because I've worked in digital marketing my whole life and essentially manage the lifecycle of a website as a product.

And so I kind of always wondered, do my skill sets translate? But I've always hesitated because in my mind, I really hold product management almost maybe too high of a bar above me. And so I kind of rule myself out. And I'm just kind of thinking right now with everyone entering the job market because of layoffs and whatnot, there might be a lot of people in my position who have the skills needed to make a shift to it, but I may be hesitant.

And so I'd just love to kind of hear more about that because, again, I think they have a lot to learn from what you get to say. And so can you help us understand what you've done with product management, what you've worked with, what products you've managed, and then kind of where you are today?

Yeah, absolutely. So first off, thanks for having me. I've been excited to join your podcast, obviously enthusiastic about sharing some of the experience I've had here in the Silicon Valley. And oddly enough, I was laid off in 2001 as a software engineer, as a very young software engineer. And I went back to school for my MBA and ended up pivoting to product management at a time where it wasn't as popular of a role.

I didn't feel like too many people knew what product management was. And so I think it's a great opportunity for people who are interested in pivoting their careers from what they're doing today. I personally am incredibly biased because I think it's the best job in the world. I tell everyone I meet to become a product manager.

I've gotten the chance to do some incredible stuff, travel the world, and see my products come to life. And nothing gives me more pride than seeing stuff out in the real world. So absolutely, I would highly recommend that. So can you share some examples of products you've managed? Because I think everyone's dying to know.

You and I, we met at Logitech, so I know about that. But yeah, tell us a little bit about what you've done. Yeah, for sure. It's been quite a wide range of things. But I would say, historically, I've done primarily accessories and peripherals for starting with the iPod, making accessories for that, then shifting to iPhone when that launched, working directly with Apple on their MFI program, transitioning to Logitech, working on PC accessories, then through webcams, then moving over to Barnes & Noble Nook when the e-reader industry was just firing up.

I helped them scale an accessories business from $0 to $100 million in 24 months, transitioning to Motorola from there, continuing on my hardware journey, then kind of shifting over to more hardware/software. An intersection that I've had over the years is an intersection that I found that I truly love.

So it's a place that-- I was at this augmented reality company called Meta as their head of product there, where we're doing futuristic headsets with augmented reality, seeing holograms, and getting all the software applications to run to power that stuff. And then for the first time ever, doing full software at a company called Elementum, where we were trying to develop supply chain cloud-based applications.

And since then, I've been at Google doing program management on the Chromebook team. So that is a freaking amazing history. And the question that comes to mind right away is those products, while they share similarities, they're also very, very different, right? And going from software and hardware. And one of the things that I've always told myself-- or actually, the reason why I told myself I couldn't do these job roles is because maybe I didn't have the full, deep, technical knowledge of said product to be able to do that.

But you're kind of illustrating to me that you've somehow been able to shift into each of these categories and probably become an expert while you're on the job. Absolutely. Can you help us understand, what is that mindset? When you shift and going to a completely new and foreign product category, how do you do that?

Yeah, it's funny, because I don't think I am truly an expert at an engineering level. But I can kind of hold my own. And we're talking categories that range from RF devices to audio products, where you have to understand frequency response, to image quality with webcams, to now a lot of the stuff I'm doing at Google, where there's a lot of interactions with Chrome OS and operating system.

Though, I think the one commonality that I've realized over the years, and it's something that I'm trying to champion, somehow instill in my kids, is a level of entrepreneurial spirit. And I feel like if you embody that sense of entrepreneurial spirit, you can figure stuff out, no matter what you're thrown into.

And leveraging that hustle of figuring stuff out, learning, being enthusiastic about learning because you're excited about this category that you're diving into, I'm 100% confident, Tim, you can do it as well. I think anyone can do it, honestly, because I've proven that I can transition from very different industries and categories and learning new things and kind of becoming almost an expert at all of them.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, I think product management is one of the most incredible roles out there in the world, and it gives everyone an opportunity to flex their entrepreneurial spirit. Yeah, and I think we'll save this part of the conversation for later in the video, because we want to definitely dive deep into the skills you require, or even the aptitude, and maybe job experience, or indirect, right?

And how do you make yourself stand out? Because things like entrepreneurial spirit, it reads kind of weird on paper. And so it's like, how do you get that to come out in an interview, for example? So let's definitely talk about that. But before we get there, maybe let's set the baseline here for a second.

So product management, I'll use myself as an example. My view or understanding of product management is actually probably very minimal compared to the breadth that is the field. And I think that limited view actually cuts off all the opportunities for me, because I don't even know what to look for.

So can you help us understand, first of all, what are the key responsibilities and challenges you face as a product manager? And can you help us understand maybe the breadth of the field? Yeah, I think every company has their own definition of what a product manager is. Historically for me, and a lot of the companies I've been at, has positioned it more as you are a mini GM, general manager within your domain of portfolio of products that you own, and do whatever it takes to make it successful.

So I think that definitely is something that happens often. But you get into fields that are more like technical product manager, where you kind of need that engineering background, engine features. But I would say the overall general definition of what product management should be is understanding the marketplace, understanding the market opportunity, knowing who your competitors are, figuring out a strategy that allows your company to enter the market and be successful at it.

But more than anything, is balancing the business aspects, but also embracing the user experience, and really putting yourself in the shoes of the user, or understanding data that helps you drive your product features and capabilities to delivering something that is delightful, that people love to use, and want to use it every single day, and become obsessed over your product.

That's essentially what product managers should be doing, in addition to writing product requirements documents, working with engineering teams, and program management teams to execute and deliver. I mean, it isn't for the faint hearted, I got to say, because there's a lot of stuff happening at the same time all the time.

But you're never going to be bored. I can promise you that. Yeah, that's such a good point. And actually, I really appreciate that walkthrough and breakdown, because it helps me understand, there's some things that you said there that I feel really comfortable with. And there's some things that might be a little foreign to me, right?

And there's an aspect of it where I can probably bring some of that with me, and somebody can learn on the job. I think the areas of things are like, how do you forecast or project opportunity, or forecast revenue or growth based on a feature that you create? How do you get that down to a science?

If I'm going to add a feature to a product, how do I project that the return on that investment of development would yield x return for a company? How do you think about that? Yeah, it's definitely not easy. I haven't seen any company, honestly, be successful at it. I've had some struggles with forecasting as good as the team is.

There are always so many forces in place that you just can't predict, whether it's the economy or a competitor launches something better. So from a forecasting standpoint, there are multiple ways of looking at it. There is the bottoms up of what customers have agreed to buy such and such product.

Maybe it's an existing product that you're refreshing or a new product that you're entering. So your sales team needs to determine what they think they can do. Or you can also look at if you're a completely new company starting out of sizing the market, what is the total addressable market?

And what do you think you can do based on that slice of pie that you're aiming for and trying to compute what your potential opportunity is within that market space? So forecasting, I say, is one of the hardest things. And I don't think any company has truly perfected it from what I've seen.

Would you say your business school experience, obviously that helps with a lot of things you just talked about here, is in what areas do you feel like that really contributed to your current success versus what aspects of product marketing can you succeed without having had that education? I contribute a lot of my introduction to product management due to the MBA because, honestly, coming out as a computer science major, you know nothing about marketing.

You barely scratch the surface on emotional intelligence, any of that. Finance, looking at financial statements, things like that for the very first time. Yeah, we're really good at math. But do you know how to look at a financial statement or control cash flow, things like that? Those are all skills that you learn going through an MBA program.

And it gives you a taste of everything a product manager touches, which I think was the best crash course for me because I fell in love with marketing the moment I took my first marketing class. And unfortunately, that didn't happen until I was going through for my MBA. And then I learned about what it takes to motivate people from a management standpoint.

So again, you're going to be working cross-functionally. How do you get your engineering team, program management team, your sales team to all want to put in their energy and time into making your product successful? Thinking about finance, how to run a breakeven point. I didn't really learn that until later on from a sizing standpoint of all the money we're spending to develop products.

So these things are so valuable. And they were tools that I gained, again, not being experts at, but at least getting a flavor of it so that when it does happen in the job, I'm like, I've seen that before. It's not foreign to me. I think I can handle this is the type of attitude I come into it.

Yeah, that's really good. It actually kind of makes me think of, like you mentioned before, it's essentially like you're owning your own company, end to end. And it reminds me of my brother, who is a dentist. And he wanted to start his own practice. And as a dentist, you're focused on one discipline.

But learning how to build a business requires exercising of muscles that he didn't even know existed. And for him, he had to learn it on the job. It was kind of painful, like people management, the financial aspect of stuff. So I think you're right. I think going into product management, it is probably good for anyone considering this field to do the due diligence of what it actually means to own a full product, end to end, and uncover those areas of study.

And to your point, you can either go through an MBA, or if people don't have the financial means to do that, there's a lot of content available out there, resources available for you to do that. Kevin, I'm kind of wondering, as you're looking at-- because we're talking about forecasting and doing competitive, right?

There's always going to be a long list of stuff that you want to develop. It could be a reaction to a new feature or service that a competitor announced. It could be a reaction to maybe something that your senior executive stakeholders are focused on and the roadmap they develop.

And then there's probably roadmaps informed by customers, right? Or by the sales team or technical sales. How do you go about prioritizing which ones to do first? Man, that is a really tough question. I think some of that comes with experience. And in those situations, kind of focus on the user.

Because if I develop a product that the user absolutely loves, everything else you describe kind of falls into place. That isn't easy, though, because if you're working in tech, tech changes so quickly. How do you maintain and stay ahead of things? It's not easy. And one of the things I've-- I think one of the best lessons I've ever learned in product management-- and I see this failure often with product managers-- is this desire to launch because they have been so emotionally invested in a product that they can't let go when it's time to kill a project.

I've-- more than anyone, I've been guilty of that. But there was an instance where we were developing a new set of headphones. And we just couldn't get the ergonomics perfect. We couldn't get the curvature of the style and design that we wanted. And we were in development for a year.

And at the time, I wanted to push forward. And my boss asked me, do you still love it as much as we did the first day when we conceived of this idea and the design and everything? And I-- there was a lot of soul searching. And I said, I don't anymore.

And she said, yes, because if you don't love it, think about the ramifications of bringing a product to market where you don't love anymore, and you're just the grind of delivering. The customer probably won't love it as much as you do. And then we're going to buy inventory. It's going to sit-- it's going to tie up cash flow.

If it doesn't sell because it's whatever, like many, many months past due, so now it's a little bit outdated, then we're going to have to slash our cost, which means that we're going to take a hit on margins and profitability, which then ties up cash flow to do other things, right?

If you were to bet on other projects, wouldn't that be a better use of your cash flow? So that was a really good lesson. And funny enough, I think it was about three or six months later, she asked me, hey, do you remember that project? And I was like, yeah, it was the best decision we ever made.

And we never looked back. I think those are some of the hard lessons that product managers need to learn, because it's like giving birth to a baby. You've been coddling it for so long. And it's hard to let go, but sometimes you just have to. But when you do, you're able to move on and have clarity again as to what you should be doing, what you know can be more successful.

It's easy to say this. It is really hard to actually execute on it. And I hope all those product managers out there are listening intently, because the ramifications of not letting go can be detrimental to your business. Yeah, that's such a good point. And I've actually never thought about that way.

And it makes me actually wonder. So I'm going to use marketing as an example, but I would love to see the product equivalent of this. There are times where, let's say we're running a campaign, or we are trying to promote a specific report or asset, and after staring at the same thing for six months, even though it started at a place where we're really passionate about it and the customers love it, for example, we get kind of almost lazy in taking it for granted.

In some cases, kind of getting tired of it, whereas our customers are probably seeing it for the first time. So they're excited about it, but our freshness is gone. And I'm kind of wondering, when you are looking at a product, especially a product that's very mature, let's say, how do you ever run into a hurdle where you have to maybe reinvigorate your passion?

And let's say, for instance, for example, a solution here is not to pull the record and bail out and find another product. Let's say you need to stay within the product to continue to be successful. How do you kind of re-engage and rediscover the passion if you've been doing the same thing for, let's say, 10 to 15 years?

So first off, maybe a little bit about my personality. I wake up every morning with that passion. It's never lost. But passion for a project that's kind of just dragging, I could see that. Yeah, I think it comes down to what your mission is from the get-go. A mission that you and your team have a strong passion for.

With that, the drive shouldn't be gone, even if your customers are seeing it for the first time and you guys have been working on it for some time. But think about how to continue to innovate. Think about how to leapfrog the market. Think about how to take advantage of maybe the head start that you've got if customers are loving it and everyone's seeing it for the first time.

How do you continue to push that envelope so that number two and number three are so far behind where you guys are? I see that quite a bit with a lot of the Apple stuff that's launching with their earphones. When they launched the AirPods, so far ahead of everyone else in terms of the quality and getting audio to hit both ears and for everyone else to catch up and getting that form factor very tiny and small at that performance that they got with the noise cancellation.

I mean, they're leaps and bounds ahead of everyone. And even with the Apple Watch, people trying to catch up, they're so far ahead. If you do have that lead, and yeah, it might feel a little stale because it's something you've been working on for some time, but go back to the mission that you're focused on.

Think about the mission that you and your team are dedicated to and use that as your North Star versus this is just one project that's kind of dragging. I love that. And I think if you tie that with something you said earlier, which is focused on the customer, I think that's where you can derive a lot of innovation because customer needs are always changing.

And again, if you're trying to deliver the best experience for a customer and they're evolving with age groups as well, it shouldn't ever be boring. Your desire to stay ahead is critical. And actually, I'm kind of even wondering, how do you go about looking at potential of a feature or product or is a category that may not exist yet?

And you probably have all of these pie-in-the-sky ideas. How do you go grab maybe the one that you feel like, hey, this might actually be something based on what you're seeing from industry trends or technology trends. Can you give some examples of that or even one? Yeah. In those situations, I think it's really good to test with your people within your circle and gauge, is there some level of excitement behind something that's never been seen before?

An example is I do some of my own personal projects and I was one of the first to develop a respirator mask for kids. And it's never been seen before and it was a super hard challenge because there was nothing to reference. But knowing that there was a need for it and a desire for it with all the wildfire smoke we get here in California, it was something that I was testing with a lot of parents to see and gauge, is this something they would be interested in?

And then obviously working closely with kids to see if this is something that they would wear, if it's going to help protect them. And it's making sure that you're keeping them involved. I had, again, hustling to get things through. I created a small Facebook group with close moms and dads that are friends of mine and making sure that they're very open and honest about their feedback.

So as I went through the development cycle, it was great to get their feedback as to whether the cost was too high, if I addressed their protection concerns, and then obviously making sure that the kids were involved in testing and trying it out. So things that have never been done before are, I think, one of the most challenging because there's nothing to reference against and learn from where their pitfalls are.

Obviously, there were masks out there, but those things weren't even in the same playing field as what we were looking to develop. Yeah, and just for everyone viewing, you're referring to Flowmask. Is that right? No, absolutely. Yeah, and everyone, there's going to be-- actually, Kevin and I are going to do a separate video going specifically into Flowmask.

I think it's a really interesting study on taking a product from conception to market, starting a new business from the ground up, and being award winning. And he's very-- you're not touting your own horn here, but I'll give you all the credibility. Shout out there. So make sure you guys subscribe to this because you'll want to see that video when it comes out.

There's going to be a lot to be learned because I'm actually even interested in even things like branding and naming of the product, as well as, again, you just mentioned now, getting feedback and research with your customers. So that's fantastic. I can't wait to get there. Can we just pivot a little bit?

Earlier, we had talked about skills and aptitudes that you've experienced on the job. Can you maybe outline, when you're looking to hire someone to be a product manager on your team, from a entry level all the way up to senior? What hard or soft skills are you looking for?

You mentioned attitude earlier, the hustle and entrepreneurial. But is there anything else you're looking for? Yeah, for sure. I think it's really important to make sure that person has interest in the category that you're working on. If there is no passion, then it's going to be a challenge. So that's number one.

Number two would be, do they have that entrepreneurial spirit? Do they think like an entrepreneur? Because an entrepreneur will find any crack to capitalize on and take advantage of to be successful. I oftentimes ask, share a product that you love and why. And if they're going about the approach methodically, the way a product manager would, then I can see that they've got some of that skill set and sense in it.

I think one of the other challenges I try to look for is someone with grit. Because of every project I've ever developed, and I've done over 100 hardware projects over the last 20 years, that last 5% of getting it to ship and launched in the marketplace is probably harder than the 95% it took to get there.

Can you tell us about that? Yeah, tell us more about that. Yeah, the finishing touches, making sure that you met every qualification and expectation that you had originally when you developed it. Can you do it at scale to manufacture at high volumes? Can you do it in a way where the cost structure is feasible so you're getting the proper yield rate that you're aiming for?

All these things have to come into place. And just making sure that, again, at the end, do you still love it from the day you originally conceived of it? And making sure that that sense of feeling is still there. And making sure that you're able to get it across the finish line so that you can bring it to the world and let everyone else experience what you've been working on for the last all-plus months.

So how do you distinguish yourself, whether it's on a resume or cover letter? Because, again, there's going to be a lot of resumes that look the same, right? Because you have a job description. You try to match that, right? But how do you set yourself apart to even get that first interview with you?

That's a really good question. Obviously, the recruiters have to do a lot of digging ahead of time. But I share kind of an overview of what I'm looking for when we do talk about roles. And everything I just described to you are things I'm looking for. It's less about the school.

But it's more about the attitude. It's more about the right level of experience that we're looking for in terms of if it's going to be more of a technical role, where they do need to have some level of technical knowledge. I think that's going to be important. Like, you can't just jump into hardware without knowing how products are made.

I think that's going to be really challenging. Unless you're going to come in as an associate product manager, yeah, it totally makes sense. But then again, I go to, well, have you managed a business before? Do you have some of those skills? Obviously, during the interview, it'll be really important to see how strong is their emotional intelligence in solving some of these problems, potential conflicts with colleagues and your cross-functional teams.

That is so critical to success as a product manager. But specifically on the resume, that's a tough one. It's going to be making sure that-- I guess I look more for things that show me that you've been running a business. I feel like if you've been doing that, you can figure everything else out.

And kind of going back to the very first question you asked of the fact that you don't feel like your background is geared towards product management, I have never met product managers with the exact same background. It's not like a computer science programmer that had a computer science degree.

Product managers come from all walks of life. And I think that's one of the beauties of the role is that you can have people coming from biology or QA, people who come from customer support. I've seen people from all walks of life and all prior job experiences step right into the role and be successful because it's the little bits of experience they brought from their previous job that adds on to what product management is.

And that's why I love product management so much. That's a great response. And I think you called out a lot of things that are really important. I think construction of your resume that allows you to even tell a story is really important. And you might think, oh, well, I'm limited to bullet points.

Well, what you share those bullet points or the data you unveiled to tell the story in itself illustrates your level of confidence or capability there. And so I would definitely spend some time looking at that. Because again, to your point, you got to somehow tell the story without telling the story.

Unlike a cover letter, right? And maybe the cover letter or your portfolio is where you can, again, dive a little deeper into that. So I just got one more question for you, Kevin. For someone who's a current practitioner as a PM, what does growth opportunity look like to them?

You've evolved from product management to program management at Google. What's the potential of a product manager? I think oftentimes, product managers end up spinning off and starting their own thing. They're so well-rounded in terms of knowing how to work with different groups and knowing how to identify market opportunities.

Oftentimes, I've seen a lot of product managers kind of start their own business. But growth opportunities, it's massive. Because you're learning to be a mini-CEO within your company and learning all the skill sets that are required to drive a business to success. So whether you want to stay in that same industry or if you want to transition out to another company that does something that you can bring your skill set to and help them grow that business, I almost feel like you have this core set of skills that allow you to make businesses successful.

Doesn't matter what business it is. And you can just parachute that person in, and they'll figure out how to make that business thrive. So I definitely see that as being part of it. But it's a skill set that is constantly evolving. And it's never ending in terms of the knowledge base that you can gain.

So even for myself, I continue to obsess over the user experience and think about, what can I do better for the user? How can I reduce the number of steps it takes to maybe, say, set up a peripheral? Those little things, all the way to when I was at Logitech, we had the customer support number at the very back of the user manual.

And it's like, why is it back there and not at the front? Little things like that. Thinking differently, I think, is a pretty big thing. And that's another thing about product management is that you're allowed to have this massive creative space to push the envelope. And you're wearing the hat that gives you that authority as well.

But obviously, you want to make sure everyone else is willing to join you for the ride. Well, Kevin, this was great. And I just want to thank you for your time. There's so much that we learned from you today. And I think for people who are considering this as a new field or current practitioners, there's a lot of really good advice you gave there.

So I just want to thank you for your time. Just to remind everybody, Flowmask is definitely something we want to talk about in depth. You'll want to stick around for that. And so make sure you like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell, so you'll be notified when that's available.

Thanks a lot, Kevin. Thanks, Sam. Appreciate it. Thank you. Oh, one more question, Kevin. If you're open to it, how can people find you? How can they find their way to Flowmask or anything else? Yeah, if you guys want to check out Flowmask, you can visit our website at f-l-o-m-a-s-k dot com.

I'm obviously on LinkedIn. So feel free to reach out to me there. But yeah, I'd be happy to engage and give back to all those new budding product managers that are looking to do a career pivot. Thanks a lot, Kevin. Yep, thanks, too. See you later. you