RPF0284-Job_Free_with_Jake

00:00:00.000 | Today in radical personal finance we talk with Jake the Silas and we talked about his brand new book called job free four ways

00:00:05.640 | To quit the rat race and achieve financial freedom on your terms

00:00:09.240 | If you're interested in achieving financial independence and financial freedom, this is a must listen to interview and a must-read book

00:00:15.920 | Because you need to know your options before you begin

00:00:19.280 | This is a great place to start

00:00:23.960 | You

00:00:25.960 | Welcome to the radical personal finance podcast. My name is Joshua sheets and I'm your host. Thank you for being with me today today

00:00:44.280 | We got a good one for you. We love to talk about financial independence on the radical personal finance podcast

00:00:49.360 | Love to talk about all the different ways that you can accomplish this goal

00:00:53.120 | But I always in the past with kind of missing the framework. I didn't quite have the framework

00:00:59.240 | Well, Jake the Silas gives us the framework and we've got to choose your own adventure so you can decide what's right for you. I

00:01:07.280 | First saw Jake give these four options in a presentation a long time ago

00:01:16.240 | But I and I asked him to come on and do an interview but he wanted to wait because he was writing a book

00:01:20.600 | On the subject. Well that book is out now. I'm thrilled to bring the interview in the discussion to you

00:01:25.160 | You're gonna enjoy the content today because we're not just talking about the book. We're talking about the subject

00:01:29.700 | so in many ways today's show will serve as a little mini course a mini course on the

00:01:34.200 | different options that you have

00:01:36.040 | so many people get fixated on

00:01:38.000 | their one way that they know of to create financial independence and they forget about the other options and I think Jake's done a great

00:01:44.280 | Job of bringing together all your different options so that you can figure out which path is going to fit you

00:01:49.920 | Most of us are pursuing this goal of financial independence and financial freedom

00:01:54.360 | I am but we're probably pursuing it in different ways and it'll be valuable

00:01:59.480 | I think to you to to know the different ways for a play the interview for you cover in a sponsors for today's show sponsored

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00:03:37.040 | Thank you to the sponsors. And now here is the interview with Jake

00:03:41.760 | Jake welcome back to radical personal finance. Hi Joshua. It's a pleasure to be here

00:03:48.040 | So first question is I see we're talking on Skype. I see from

00:03:52.440 | Your Skype location that you are in I guess Panama City Panama right now. Is that right?

00:03:57.800 | Yeah, that's right in sunny Panama and loving it here

00:04:00.920 | so quick personal update as I understand it you and you and your girlfriend you guys have

00:04:06.340 | Sold everything you digitized everything you hit the road and you're doing the full-time vagabond thing. Is that right?

00:04:12.920 | yep, that's it the last it's been a

00:04:15.760 | Progressive project over the last couple of years, you know

00:04:19.280 | We we started spending six months abroad each winter to get away from the cold of England

00:04:25.200 | And we were coming back to England and we just decided, you know

00:04:28.480 | let's just go for it and and sell the flat get rid of all of our stuff and

00:04:33.000 | And slow travel the world. And so that's what we've chosen to do. It's been a really liberating process. It's been

00:04:40.800 | I've learned a huge amount through getting rid of all my stuff and

00:04:44.400 | becoming minimalist and and choosing this lifestyle and the first place that we've chosen is Panama and we actually got here and like it so

00:04:53.080 | Much that we're gonna stick around here for a while and and check it out, you know more because there's just so much going on

00:04:59.320 | Here, it's really dynamic. It's an amazing city and it's a very much a

00:05:02.960 | Place with a lot of innovation and entrepreneurship and growth. And so yeah, that's where we're calling home for the moment

00:05:10.360 | So I was picturing that you'd gone on a multiple country tour, but you flew from England to Panama and and there you stay

00:05:18.080 | Well, yeah, because our plan has always been not really to go, you know from hotel to hotel

00:05:23.440 | But rather to actually live in different countries for at least six months and then you know

00:05:29.840 | See how we feel and move on from there

00:05:32.320 | And so we're doing slow travel because that way, you know

00:05:37.400 | You really get to feel what it's like to live somewhere you get to meet people locally and and actually experience life in a place

00:05:44.160 | Otherwise it can become a bit of a blur and that was our experience when we were staying in Mexico

00:05:49.280 | We were staying in places for at least a couple of months sometimes longer and one, you know

00:05:54.120 | One of one year we went from place to place every couple of months in another year

00:05:57.520 | We just stayed in one place for six months

00:05:59.520 | So that's the way that we like to do it because it gives us more of an insight

00:06:02.800 | Into you know, what life is like in different places

00:06:05.920 | And so the first place is gonna be Panama and you know

00:06:08.800 | We're just gonna play it by ear and see how it goes

00:06:10.480 | I read when I read travel logs seems like people who go out on traveling the first six months or a year

00:06:16.760 | They just go go go go go go go and then if they're still on the road

00:06:19.400 | They start to slow down and say why did we go so fast?

00:06:21.680 | So maybe it's just the personality a thing at the moment

00:06:25.000 | I'm like, how would you stay in one city when there's so many places to go but here past that initial

00:06:29.920 | Frantic phase and you're into the to the to the regular phase. It sounds like yeah

00:06:35.200 | The first time we did a couple of long long term travel trips

00:06:39.280 | We we were doing more of the frantic phase

00:06:41.480 | we went all the way down through Latin America through Argentina and then back up through Chile and

00:06:46.920 | It was great. It was really good fun

00:06:49.120 | But it's more of a holiday than than living and you know

00:06:52.400 | We we both have lots of things that we want to be getting on with as well

00:06:56.240 | My wife runs a personal development website and I'm writing and doing my podcast and stuff

00:07:01.960 | So, you know, that's the the plan is to actually experience life on the ground and we've already met some really nice people here in Panama

00:07:08.180 | So it's definitely working out the way we like it final question practically speaking

00:07:12.200 | So if you're staying that much time like what is selling all your stuff mean?

00:07:16.280 | I mean how many suitcases do you have?

00:07:17.920 | Do you have things that you're shipping from each house or are you?

00:07:21.200 | Really still in we only have a couple of suitcases worth of stuff phase

00:07:24.520 | No, we've we're down to

00:07:27.080 | two bags each so one hold luggage bag and one cabin bag and

00:07:32.200 | everything I own fits in in those two bags and

00:07:36.680 | so, you know that we just got rid of everything and it was it was

00:07:40.160 | Incredibly liberating because I realized traveling that most of the stuff we were putting in storage. I didn't even think about I didn't miss and

00:07:47.720 | You know war obviously renting furnished places

00:07:51.100 | and you can rent great apartments with all the furniture that you need and everything and we're staying in a place that has a pool and

00:07:57.360 | Everything we could need for a nice comfortable life here. But you know all of my

00:08:04.200 | Photographs and my data and my projects they all live in the cloud now

00:08:08.320 | anyway

00:08:08.720 | or in encrypted drives in the cloud or on you know and places that I can access from the internet and

00:08:14.000 | So really we just have some clothes and and our laptops

00:08:18.000 | That's it. It's great

00:08:19.960 | I've listened to some of your shows on the practical

00:08:21.960 | things you learned of downsizing and we've made a lot of progress in our family we sold our big house got rid of a lot

00:08:26.720 | of stuff there and

00:08:28.200 | I've got a giant bin full of photos and I keep thinking

00:08:31.640 | Okay, am I gonna follow through and get these things digitized?

00:08:34.640 | I got a giant pen of old CDs and I gotta go through and digitize and get rid of all that stuff

00:08:40.160 | And my CDs aren't even the music which is easy if they were just music. I just dump them

00:08:45.720 | They're all personal development stuff, which a little harder to stream on on on Pandora

00:08:50.160 | But but it's inspiring and who knows maybe we'll join you someday

00:08:54.080 | So I want to talk about this book that you have recently published. I'm very excited for it

00:08:58.080 | I remember you gave a speech on this topic and I had reached out to you

00:09:02.480 | I guess I was probably a year ago now and I said listen

00:09:04.040 | I want to interview you specifically on the topic and you said wait for the book

00:09:07.160 | So the book is here and so we can do it. So what's the name of your book and what's it about?

00:09:10.920 | So the book is called job free and it's about four ways to quit the rat race

00:09:16.880 | achieve financial freedom on your own terms and

00:09:20.640 | So what I'm doing is really describing

00:09:24.320 | different approaches to getting out of unfulfilling jobs and finding a way to live free of jobs and

00:09:31.160 | That's the this sort of aim of the book is to to really provide an overview of the different approaches that you can take

00:09:38.400 | both based on my own experience having gone through entrepreneurship and building and selling a business and

00:09:43.720 | Also based on all the people that I've interviewed who found different ways to live job free

00:09:48.760 | I love the topic and I wish I'd written the book. I'm just gonna steal it from now on

00:09:53.760 | It's it's on my required reading list

00:09:55.760 | I think your brain and my brain works similarly in some ways where we'd like to categorize things and it's not

00:10:01.280 | What annoys me about the finance world as people always say this is the way you have to do it and I look and say

00:10:06.660 | Well, that's one way and that can work well for this type of person in these circumstances

00:10:10.720 | But here's another way who can which can work better and I think that's what you've effectively

00:10:13.880 | Done with this book is you've outlined

00:10:17.760 | Here are the four different ways to quit the rat race and achieve financial freedom on your term on your terms and you can choose

00:10:25.080 | Which of these is appropriate for you here are advantages and disadvantages

00:10:28.160 | so the book is a perfect introductory text for anyone who is interested in

00:10:34.920 | Just develop anyone who's interested in in

00:10:38.720 | Figuring out the different approaches and then figuring out what's right for them

00:10:42.560 | So what are the four ways to actually accomplish this goal of quitting the rat race?

00:10:47.640 | Right. So the four ways that I've found

00:10:51.680 | I mean every everyone's journey is different and I've interviewed a lot of people on my podcast and read different people's stories and

00:10:58.280 | some people combine different

00:11:00.400 | approaches, but I think it's helpful to think of four fundamental approaches that you can kind of take bits from and

00:11:07.720 | So the different approaches that I've found are I call them extreme saving

00:11:12.760 | Which is very much in the tradition of the sort of Joe Dominguez your money or your life

00:11:17.840 | You know

00:11:18.720 | You have a job and you save and save more than 50% ideally 75%

00:11:22.920 | So you can get to the point of financial independence and then you live job free because you can just quit your job and live

00:11:29.760 | From your investments. So that's one approach, but there are other approaches, too

00:11:34.040 | I mean there's an approach called unjobbing which is an approach which is to say well

00:11:39.520 | I don't want to work for somebody else. I don't want a job that's unfulfilling

00:11:42.880 | I want to do work that is meaningful to me and I find it fulfilling every day that brings me joy and

00:11:49.760 | Happiness and sometimes that kind of work doesn't pay as much as a you know, a job that is less fulfilling

00:11:56.920 | So people who take the unjobbing route are often freelancers or they have multiple side hustles and different projects

00:12:03.680 | But they choose often to live very frugally in order to do work. So it really brings them

00:12:09.240 | Joy, and that way it's not like a job

00:12:12.560 | So that's the second one

00:12:14.600 | The third one is really the idea of having a lifestyle business and this is where you choose to develop a business

00:12:21.480 | That's going to give you income

00:12:22.920 | So that you have the freedom to live as you choose and a lot of the people who choose

00:12:27.360 | location independent lifestyles and have online businesses that give them an income and allow them to

00:12:33.520 | You know not have to go to work every day not have to commute and do all those things

00:12:37.160 | but just live from that kind of income choose this approach and

00:12:40.880 | property would be another typical example of a lifestyle business and

00:12:44.880 | lastly is

00:12:46.960 | The idea of having a startup and this was my route and that's where rather than build a business that is going to just give

00:12:54.040 | you income often as a solopreneur often which is what a lot of the lifestyle entrepreneurs are a

00:12:59.800 | Startup is where you're really focusing on building the value in a business. You're building an enterprise

00:13:04.760 | That's going to grow it's going to have a massive impact and ultimately it's going to have value as a business so that you can

00:13:12.160 | Potentially one day sell your business and then use that

00:13:15.720 | Financial independence to give you the freedom to do whatever you want with your time. And so those are the four different routes

00:13:22.640 | It's basically

00:13:24.200 | extreme saving

00:13:26.520 | Lifestyle businesses and startups. I want to hang some examples on these so people can understand

00:13:31.360 | I'll do the first one you do the next three of try to just mention some examples of popular media personalities

00:13:36.400 | The first one is the dominant theme in this kind of personal finance early retirement financial independence space the extreme savings

00:13:43.060 | so you mentioned Joe Dominguez Vicky Robbins with

00:13:45.280 | Just blanked on the book

00:13:48.680 | Well money or your money or your life

00:13:51.320 | Also popularized mr. Money mustache the leading figure in the online space Jacob

00:13:56.920 | Yeah

00:13:57.120 | Lund Fisker early retirement extreme also guests that we've had on the show many many guests from this situation ranging from Joe

00:14:04.160 | Rebel spy from the money mustache forum. We just had him on

00:14:07.760 | many many of my guests have been in this extreme savings perspective where everything is based upon the

00:14:15.160 | Based upon the savings rate. I feel like this one is currently a little bit over representative

00:14:20.720 | Give some examples of popular or somewhat known

00:14:24.680 | personalities that fit the other three the other three categories

00:14:28.640 | Sure. Well, I mean, let's take for example

00:14:32.200 | Lifestyle businesses. I mean, I think this is really where you see

00:14:36.480 | things like Tim Ferriss is for our work week was a book that was

00:14:40.980 | highly influential in getting people to think about this type of approach and a lot of

00:14:46.320 | People used that book even though Tim himself did various things including selling a business. He really popularized this idea of

00:14:53.640 | focusing on having a business that's going to give you income so you can live as you want and

00:14:58.680 | The the approach has been taken by a lot of the people who pursue

00:15:03.560 | Lots sort of travel based entrepreneurship

00:15:07.160 | There's a book called

00:15:09.840 | Building a freedom business and all the authors name actually slips my mind for a moment

00:15:14.960 | But there's different different people have taken that approach. So that's lifestyle businesses. Then if you think about startups

00:15:22.000 | My experience was through building a startup

00:15:25.600 | But a person who's written a really nice book about that approach is Derek Sivers

00:15:29.360 | And he built the business CD baby and eventually sold it for 20 million and he now lives

00:15:34.920 | From you know the income that he made from from selling that business and does various other projects, right?

00:15:40.960 | And and and so that's some examples there, but there's also this thing called unjobbing and there's lots of people living

00:15:47.040 | Sort of unjobbing style lifestyles the person I think is really most

00:15:51.920 | Representative of this is a guy called Michael Fogler who actually wrote a book called unjobbing and he writes about his own experience

00:15:59.080 | He was trained as a classical guitarist

00:16:01.360 | and he tried for many years to get a job as a teaching position as a classical guitarist and

00:16:07.040 | He found after many years that he hadn't been able to get a full-time appointment doing that

00:16:11.560 | But he'd made money just doing lots of other things

00:16:14.480 | You know various side hustles and part-time work and this and that and eventually he realized he just didn't want a full-time job

00:16:20.880 | And so he pursued that lifestyle living as frugally as he could

00:16:25.960 | So that so that he could then pursue things that were meaningful to him and he did various things

00:16:31.000 | He was a peace activist and then he did some writing various other things that brought him fulfillment

00:16:36.800 | The startup idea I think is the most historically popular

00:16:42.040 | This was the this was the way that when I was young and I was talking with my brothers about how we were gonna get

00:16:47.000 | Rich it was okay. We're gonna build a big business and then

00:16:49.720 | As you said Ferris pop I think did more to popularize the idea of the lifestyle business just build a business that's big enough

00:16:56.560 | But it's fuzz on flexible terms anyone else that's well developed

00:17:00.480 | Then extreme savings has been somewhat developed especially over the last few years with with the rise of personal finance blocks

00:17:07.160 | but this unjobbing one, this is still I think the

00:17:09.840 | Not the black hole, but this is the one that I don't I don't really connect with very very much

00:17:17.040 | I guess the closest I get is sometimes when I read books on how to sail full-time and they talk about well pull into port

00:17:22.720 | And do this little do this little deal here and do this little deal there

00:17:26.840 | Are people talking about this as an attractive option?

00:17:29.960 | well, I think it really depends on on what is important to you and

00:17:35.040 | You know for me and I think for a lot of your listeners to financial independence

00:17:40.480 | Is something that I thought was a really important goal to have?

00:17:44.320 | To know that I could have the financial independence to do whatever I wanted with my time

00:17:49.000 | The downside from unjobbing is that you don't have that financial independence. So you're gonna have to continue

00:17:55.960 | You know making a living somehow

00:17:58.480 | Through the process of unjobbing but there are lifestyles like that that you describe that some people

00:18:04.120 | Want to travel and they choose to go and work on cruise ships or whatever because that gives them the lifestyle that they want

00:18:10.800 | to do other things like travel and and and that they find fulfilling or

00:18:15.520 | People who work, you know as in musician as musicians or in jobs that you know

00:18:21.440 | You may not actually be earning as much as you could in other ways

00:18:25.120 | But if you find it fulfilling then that's fine

00:18:27.840 | the other way to think about it, I think is really just if you I think you can be a very successful and job

00:18:33.080 | But if you have highly valued skills and you're able to freelance, you know

00:18:38.240 | If you have good connections with an industry

00:18:39.920 | So a friend of mine worked for many years as a management consultant and he loved the work

00:18:45.160 | He found it very fulfilling but it's one of the industries where it is

00:18:48.840 | Totally full-on you work very long hours you work very intensively and you do earn fairly good money as an employee

00:18:55.560 | But what he found was that when he had enough industry contacts, he was able to get to the point where he could do

00:19:01.600 | freelance work on his own as a freelance consultant on one or two projects a month just

00:19:09.080 | Working for equivalent of a couple of days a week and it was work that he enjoyed

00:19:13.800 | But he didn't need to do all of the stress and hassle of being within a firm and having the constant pressure that goes with

00:19:20.560 | the employee status

00:19:22.320 | Tell us the Elliot Hulse story. What was his path?

00:19:25.920 | So Elliot Hulse is another person who I think represents a similar approach to the unjobbing approach. He's very much

00:19:34.360 | someone who who's interested in ways of

00:19:38.880 | Finding out how you can work on things that are fulfilling to you and he's basically a YouTube personality

00:19:44.360 | He has a couple of YouTube channels. He's a strength trainer and his approach is is very much about

00:19:50.240 | He runs a business

00:19:52.800 | And a gym and teaches people to become the strongest versions of themselves as he puts it

00:19:57.880 | And basically what it is is a whole kind of philosophy of life built around his strength training, which is not just

00:20:03.760 | In terms of exercise, but also in terms of what it means to be the strongest version of yourself

00:20:08.800 | And the reason I think he's interesting from the unjobbing perspective is that he's talked a lot

00:20:12.840 | About how important it is to him to not be constrained by some unfulfilling job and to find a way to make it work

00:20:21.280 | In doing what is fulfilling to him and that's actually what he's done

00:20:24.560 | He's actually very successful in his business and he he's also got a page called the non-job

00:20:31.600 | Manifesto, which he talks about this idea of finding a way to work outside the job paradigm

00:20:36.920 | So whereas Michael Fogler who wrote the book?

00:20:39.320 | Unjobbing is an example of someone who lives very very frugally because that allows him to do the things that he wants to

00:20:45.120 | Elliot Hulse is an example of someone who's built a business around what he's truly passionate about

00:20:49.640 | And so it's not really work to him because he really enjoys doing it, but it's also a very successful business

00:20:54.520 | I'm not extensively familiar with Elliot Hulse's work

00:20:57.560 | but I do know that I saw a presentation from him at one point that that dramatically affected me and

00:21:03.760 | He was talking about simply

00:21:06.800 | Not accepting any other alternative and just being willing to do whatever it takes and to utilize the resources that many people ignore

00:21:14.360 | And his point and I think this may have been reality in his story

00:21:18.440 | Correct me after I share the story, please

00:21:21.480 | but his point was that in today's world if you got to go down and live in the homeless shelter and

00:21:27.800 | get food stamps to get your groceries and get handouts in the homeless shelter and then go and

00:21:33.800 | Build your business using the free computer at the local library and get a you know, so that you can you know in his case

00:21:41.200 | you you

00:21:43.320 | You live in the you live like a homeless person or wherever you can get so that you can have the two hundred dollars

00:21:49.840 | You need to go buy a camera and again edit the videos of the local library and publish them online

00:21:54.160 | That just be determined and don't settle for nothing

00:21:57.360 | Don't don't settle for it and in hearing somebody present that it made me think to myself and it was a real encouragement to me

00:22:03.560 | To realize that that was simply a mental shift that I was willing if I were willing to do that

00:22:08.520 | I could make the mental shift that I'm gonna make this work

00:22:12.600 | Even if it means I wind up totally broke even if it means I wind up living on food stamps

00:22:18.060 | Even if it means I wind up

00:22:20.060 | You know again using the library

00:22:23.320 | Why not use those resources and get rid of my excuses and it was scary

00:22:27.560 | Because I realized that the major things that were holding me back are just were excuses

00:22:31.820 | But it was also really inspiring because I just realized yes in today's modern world

00:22:36.360 | use the

00:22:38.720 | use the the the social safety net that our

00:22:43.080 | Societies have evidently decided is important use that to get what you want out of life

00:22:48.880 | Yeah, and I think there are some similarities between

00:22:52.080 | some of this kind of philosophical ideas behind the extreme saving movement and

00:22:57.040 | undropping and what a lot of people who are interested in undropping talk about is how the

00:23:02.680 | Consumer culture that we're in can really prevent you from doing what you want with your life

00:23:09.400 | if you just take as a default assumption that you need to have a nice house with a big mortgage and you know,

00:23:17.100 | all of the

00:23:18.480 | Consumer goods that make you feel like you fit in to these surroundings

00:23:22.200 | you know both the extreme savers and the unjobbers have really emphasized that

00:23:26.880 | These things come at an enormous cost to your freedom if you want to save for financial independence

00:23:33.020 | And if that's what's really meaningful for you

00:23:35.300 | Then you can take a look at what you're spending your money on and realize a lot of that stuff is not

00:23:41.160 | Getting you to where you want to go in terms of one day achieving financial independence

00:23:46.100 | So the way the extreme savers go is say right I'm gonna live super frugally and I'm gonna put away

00:23:51.060 | 75% of my income so that I one day I will be just living off my

00:23:55.360 | Investments and then I will do whatever I want and the unjobbers say right

00:23:59.320 | I'm not gonna take on this massive mortgage and you know

00:24:03.180 | All of these other things that are more about keeping up with my neighbors

00:24:06.680 | What I'm gonna do is say the thing that really matters to me is to work on what I'm passionate about

00:24:11.380 | And if that means I'm gonna live super frugally for a while or even with longer term

00:24:16.220 | That doesn't matter because what's important to me is what's gonna what I'm gonna find fulfilling and yes Elliot Holson in the in the book

00:24:22.100 | I talk about the interview I did with him where he describes how he talked to his wife about this when he started his business

00:24:27.520 | He was saying, you know, if this doesn't work out we might be living in the car

00:24:31.580 | But this is something that he they talked through and they they wanted to work out

00:24:35.440 | How important was it and what did they what were they willing to sacrifice?

00:24:39.020 | I think a lot of times it's so easy to just take the default

00:24:44.500 | Symbols of success, which is the big house the nice car and all of these other things and think right

00:24:51.740 | Well, of course, I need those because otherwise I'd be a loser

00:24:54.540 | And so what I want is I want those and I also want a business that's really exciting and fulfilling to me

00:25:00.620 | Or I want to be able to travel and so on and so forth and the key there is to say well really

00:25:05.820 | You know, how fulfilling is it to you to have that luxury car or that nice house?

00:25:11.660 | Is it really fulfilling or is it something that you're giving yourself in order to make up for the dreariness?

00:25:18.780 | Of the job that you have in order to pay for that stuff

00:25:22.100 | Seems like so many of the chains that keep people

00:25:25.520 | And not everybody who's working a job living in a mainstream lifestyle many people and I get emails from listeners

00:25:31.420 | Sometimes I try to remind me and it's important reminders

00:25:33.840 | Not everybody who's living in a house with a white picket fence with a three-year-old car working a corporate job

00:25:38.480 | They're not living in chains. Okay, so but there are but there are some people who are

00:25:42.260 | Just want to recognize that not everyone needs to pursue

00:25:45.460 | These paths but so many of the chains that keep some people stuck in a place. They don't want to be are mental

00:25:52.980 | They're not actual they don't actually exist. They're mental chains and it comes down to a scale of

00:26:02.140 | Priority a ranking of priorities. I have a I have a $5,000 car and have a $500 car and I like to drive my little

00:26:08.800 | $500 car there are times when I recognize it's not socially appropriate

00:26:12.000 | I like to drive it because it gets me down the road and I often my wife and I were with some friends recently and

00:26:18.160 | there's a young couple and

00:26:20.160 | We were in there. They had a beautiful house two brand new cars in the in the driveway and

00:26:25.520 | We don't talk about money. It's not that kind of relationship

00:26:28.920 | I know enough about their financial situation to know that they are not wealthy

00:26:32.200 | They are enjoying their they're spending their income and I just looked at and I said it's it's not at all

00:26:39.680 | Attractive to me anymore and my self-worth is now

00:26:42.680 | sufficient that I can happily pull up in their driveway in my $500 car and

00:26:48.280 | Happily enjoy the beauty of this nice house and go away with I don't have any envy. I don't have any jealousy

00:26:55.360 | I have if anything a sense of

00:26:58.680 | Compassion because they're stuck and I'm not it's a mental chain though. It's not a it's not a physical thing

00:27:04.920 | It's a mental ability to cross over that hurdle to be okay with

00:27:09.020 | with your life choices

00:27:11.840 | Yeah, I think I really resonate with everything that you've said there and I think it's really important to you just pick up on the

00:27:18.100 | first thing you said to make the point that I don't consider jobs to be inherently bad or

00:27:24.880 | Deloitative or like a bad way to live and in fact jobs are incredibly important and helpful

00:27:31.280 | especially in the early stages of your career for gaining experience gaining contacts, whatever your plans are whether it's to

00:27:38.240 | start your own business or

00:27:40.800 | Work towards financial independence through extreme saving or whatever

00:27:44.080 | So I think it's really important because sometimes when people want to break out

00:27:47.680 | they they can really get a bit polarized between seeing that sort of

00:27:53.560 | typical if you like job lifestyle as being

00:27:55.760 | Inherently bad and then their way as being the only true path and my book is not about that

00:28:02.120 | It's about really just challenging the default assumptions

00:28:06.200 | You if you if you are happy in your job and you're having a great time and you enjoy spending your money in the way

00:28:11.380 | That you're spending it great. The problem is if you have taken on those assumptions

00:28:15.840 | typically through schooling especially because we're all

00:28:19.960 | Trained to be employees all of our teachers are lifelong employees and they never teach

00:28:25.360 | Anything else except how to get a job and keep a job

00:28:28.800 | So if you just brought up with those assumptions

00:28:31.560 | Then it can get you to the point where without knowing it

00:28:36.320 | You have lost the opportunities for freedom that you really could take simply because you've not been you know

00:28:42.840 | Able to break out of that paradigm

00:28:45.600 | So that's what I'm hoping that this can help do is to give people as you said

00:28:49.840 | Especially in the beginning stages a real overview of the different options that are open

00:28:55.160 | outside the realm of getting and keeping a good job the

00:28:59.400 | entrepreneurial options and other options that are about living job free which you're not going to get taught in school and

00:29:06.000 | Which you're not going to get taught by university lecturers

00:29:08.680 | That so that those type of options are open to all of us and we live in such an amazing

00:29:13.520 | Time of opportunity to pursue those options and the sad thing is a lot of people just by default

00:29:19.880 | Take on these assumptions and get into that lifestyle where before they know it. They've got huge debts

00:29:26.360 | they've got a massive mortgage to pay off and they're living on, you know, consumer debt and

00:29:30.960 | Paying for things with credit cards and then once you've taken on all of those responsibilities

00:29:36.580 | It's it's much harder to really break out of it

00:29:39.860 | Which of these four paths to financial freedom is the easiest?

00:29:43.840 | Well, I think it depends a lot on your character on what you want and on what's gonna make you happy

00:29:52.980 | I mean for example, I think in some ways if you're really stuck and you don't know what to do

00:29:59.860 | Then the default option I would suggest is to go for the extreme saving route, you know save

00:30:06.840 | Money if you don't yet know what what kind of business you could start or if you don't have the skills

00:30:11.840 | or you don't have the contacts then

00:30:14.560 | Saving is great because first of all, you can just continue along that path and continue until you gradually build up

00:30:23.120 | more and more levels of financial freedom, but also

00:30:26.360 | It gives you the capital to then start your own business or do other things when you do have that in mind and when you do

00:30:34.380 | Have that approach so, you know, I think if you're really stuck I would suggest that the saving route is

00:30:39.240 | The one to go for but then again, it depends on your on your character. I was always

00:30:44.660 | Really excited by the idea of entrepreneurship that to me was not just a goal

00:30:50.520 | Finally to achieve financial independence, but that seemed like an amazing awesome opportunity a great adventure that I wanted to do

00:30:59.020 | and so the doing of it was a very fulfilling thing for me, too and

00:31:04.140 | You know

00:31:04.720 | in fact

00:31:05.280 | the the mentor that I met very early in my teen years who I

00:31:10.200 | Sort of looked up to was an entrepreneur and I wanted to I saw what he was doing and he had a very clear plan

00:31:16.280 | To achieve financial independence through entrepreneurship. So that was a path to me. That was very

00:31:21.520 | Tangible I could see that it's possible

00:31:24.580 | I could see other people doing it and I wanted to follow it other people just

00:31:27.880 | Don't like the idea of being an entrepreneur and for them it wouldn't be the right path

00:31:32.600 | So I think that you know as I say, I think in terms of like a default choice

00:31:36.600 | I would say the savings if you you know, if you can't think of anything that you want to do

00:31:40.400 | otherwise, that's the easiest one to do because

00:31:42.960 | even though it's quite hard to live the lifestyle of

00:31:46.560 | Extreme frugality. It's relatively straightforward what you actually have to do. You know, it's it's not it's not very complicated

00:31:53.920 | You've just you've got to make the savings and that's it

00:31:56.880 | Which of the four paths is the most certain?

00:32:01.880 | Well again, I would say that the savings route is the one that's most certain because it has the least

00:32:07.160 | entrepreneurial

00:32:09.680 | risk involved

00:32:11.400 | Having said that the issue with the savings route and you and I have talked about this before is that it's got a limited upside

00:32:18.820 | Because there are just limits to how much you're going to be able to save

00:32:24.640 | from a job and

00:32:27.160 | There are constraints that when you get into entrepreneurship and you build a business the potential upside

00:32:32.960 | You know, it's it's bigger and that reflects the fact that it's riskier, too

00:32:37.280 | so it the the the safest route because it's most under your control is to go for

00:32:44.480 | extreme saving in a job where you are

00:32:47.320 | Able to you know have a fairly steady career and you're just really focused on the things that you control which is getting your own

00:32:54.240 | Spending really really under control and and putting away as much as you can if you do that

00:32:59.520 | Then you can gradually slowly work your way towards financial independence, but you're not going to be

00:33:04.940 | Getting nearly as much potential upside for example as if you would do if you become a successful entrepreneur

00:33:11.280 | Yeah, I feel like I love having the four discrete categories because it's useful to

00:33:18.040 | It's useful for people to look at and see

00:33:22.000 | Oh there are multiple ways and the reason I ask you about the most certain and the easiest to start with is I think the hardest

00:33:28.080 | one to start with and I agree with you it's hard to say and in the string the hardest one to start is with is

00:33:32.840 | The idea of launching a startup because if you have the idea of launching a startup at least this is my personal experience

00:33:39.000 | Goal is I'm gonna launch a startup. I'm gonna build a big business and I'm gonna sell it out for five million bucks

00:33:44.080 | Well, you're often looking at ideas and they've got to be big

00:33:48.700 | And so it's very frustrating when you're looking around saying what's that idea? What's that idea? What's the idea and

00:33:54.280 | Sometimes you don't have the idea. Sometimes the idea comes later

00:33:58.440 | And so what I spent time doing and I wasted several years by not having the clarity of starting with extreme savings

00:34:05.960 | I wasted time constantly looking. What's that big idea and

00:34:09.320 | Now in retrospect what I think about your four

00:34:15.040 | Categories I almost see them as for as a numbered path to starting

00:34:19.420 | So the number one thing is extreme savings because if you have an income

00:34:23.560 | Then focus on saving as much of that income as is practical for your circumstance

00:34:28.580 | Now there will be people who will not pursue this because they say I'm just not willing to live that frugal lifestyle

00:34:35.460 | But many people are and especially many younger people so extreme savings gives you

00:34:41.860 | Multiple things most especially gives you cash which allows you to more easily make a transition to unjobbing if you would like

00:34:48.580 | It's a lot easier to go and move into transient employment

00:34:51.680 | If you've got you know, some several thousand dollars at the minimum in the bank

00:34:55.720 | So you can be a little bit more comfortable with the fact that okay sometime over the next few months

00:35:00.080 | I've got a I've got to get a job or I've got to get a temporary gig of some kind

00:35:04.220 | So extreme savings leads naturally into unjobbing

00:35:07.940 | unjobbing might lead naturally into your discovering and building a lifestyle business and

00:35:12.820 | Also extreme savings is the foundation for your lifestyle business gives you the ability to take the risk on starting a new business and then

00:35:21.220 | What might happen is your lifestyle business might have to transition into a startup something that could grow now

00:35:27.820 | Not all lifestyle businesses can scale

00:35:29.820 | but what I think can happen and

00:35:34.100 | I'll use you used right in the first of your paragraph on

00:35:37.580 | Lifestyle business use the example of Pat Flynn founder of smart passive income. Yeah, so I think Pat started with this and his story

00:35:46.660 | I'm finding that the path that he's taking is kind of similar to where I'm at

00:35:52.060 | His story was he started smart passive income. He started to build a lifestyle business

00:35:56.820 | But at this point he could shut the whole thing down and live on live on savings

00:36:00.600 | But the lifestyle business has become a much bigger business and that's what I'm finding with radical personal finance at this time

00:36:06.000 | I could with my family sell all our stuff

00:36:08.600 | Take my cell phone and a little microphone and create my podcast all around the world and I could make enough for us to move

00:36:14.160 | Down and live with you in Panama City, but what I'm finding is I don't really want to do that anymore now

00:36:19.280 | I want to build something that's bigger that has a bigger impact and it's not so much the financial motivation

00:36:24.880 | It's more of about well, I guess I didn't want to actually quit

00:36:29.280 | Yeah, absolutely

00:36:30.920 | and I think I mean this is

00:36:33.000 | That's Pat is a great example and I used him as one of the examples for lifestyle business because that transition is very clear

00:36:40.200 | He was working for an architectural firm and he had a blog and he started to monetize that

00:36:45.560 | Well, actually he was made redundant from his architectural firm and he needed a job

00:36:49.880 | So cute how you Brit say that he was made redundant. He was fired

00:36:53.560 | Very cute and politically correct

00:36:57.600 | I always I like that turn of phrase you guys use

00:37:00.800 | Yeah, so he say he had to get income and he was able to monetize this blog and that was able that's

00:37:08.920 | Really was something that a lot of people found helpful because it was a blog that was about

00:37:14.320 | Passing an exam that a lot of other people were working towards and so this blog was very helpful

00:37:19.720 | He was able to monetize it and then he had products spinning off it and as you say that

00:37:24.200 | Created this passive income lifestyle this lifestyle business and now he's clearly making a lot more

00:37:30.600 | Than he would need to to pick to carry on and in a way he's doing it because he just loves doing it

00:37:36.160 | And I think it's true

00:37:37.840 | Also that if you want to do a startup

00:37:40.200 | Then you have to think about the startup in terms of not this is going to be my ticket to financial independence

00:37:46.600 | But am I gonna find this a filling as something to do?

00:37:49.600 | I mean the same goes for any lifestyle business really because you don't know whether or not you ever will have a business that

00:37:55.440 | Does successfully get to the point of being?

00:37:57.960 | Valuable enough to sell and even then whether or not you'll be able to successfully negotiate a sale and find find a buyer

00:38:04.240 | But it so it depends on what you're gonna find for filling in doing it as well

00:38:08.360 | And in the same with a lifestyle business

00:38:10.920 | You know it might be that it's much harder to make money in one particular

00:38:15.080 | Industry that you want to start your lifestyle business in and you don't necessarily know that it's gonna be a four-hour workweek

00:38:20.560 | You know most lifestyle businesses are not four-hour workweeks

00:38:23.680 | They are much more than that and it in a way that that has become a little bit of a myth sometimes

00:38:29.320 | It's not easy to to get a lifestyle to get a business providing you with that regular income on

00:38:35.040 | So little work per week so the question you have got to ask yourself is are you gonna?

00:38:40.280 | Enjoy it anyway are you gonna find it fulfilling to have this business?

00:38:43.800 | Even if you're working a lot more than four hours a week

00:38:45.840 | And if you are then that's fine because you know you're not gonna

00:38:49.480 | You're not gonna lose doing the business because it's gonna be interesting to you anyway

00:38:53.320 | Pretend that I am reading your book, and I'm a 40 year old man or woman and I'm

00:39:00.480 | Middle income middle America, or I guess it could be middle Europe whatever middle middle class, and I'm sitting there saying well

00:39:08.440 | I got you know

00:39:10.000 | $20,000 in my 401k

00:39:12.000 | But beyond that I don't really have that much

00:39:15.040 | How do I sit down and analyze my situation to fit, but I really want to be financially independent

00:39:20.280 | How do I sit down and analyze my financial my my sit my?

00:39:22.760 | My path to figure out which of these approaches is best for me

00:39:28.080 | Well, that's a really good question, and it's interesting that you start with a 40 year old because I think you know the easier case

00:39:35.720 | Is and the people who are gain gonna gain most from my book are people who are the 20 year olds?

00:39:42.040 | Right because they have a lot more

00:39:44.040 | Ahead of them to choose freely as to which path they're going to take in different

00:39:49.840 | parts of their life

00:39:51.000 | And they may well find that there are some periods in your 20s where extreme saving makes a lot of sense because you don't have

00:39:56.520 | A lot of experience and then later on you can branch into other things with the 40 year old

00:40:01.240 | I think you have to look at where you're at and what you already have in terms of you know

00:40:07.200 | Your own human capital really I'll give you an example that I mentioned before the the friend of mine

00:40:12.840 | Who was a management consultant, and he was in his mid-30s when it got to the point where he had such good

00:40:19.720 | industry connections that he was able to go freelance and

00:40:24.320 | He was able to make good money and be there for the birth of his son and for the first couple of years of his

00:40:31.200 | son's life

00:40:31.840 | And you know be be much basically be like a stay-at-home dad and yet do a bit of work here and there

00:40:38.080 | So for that period of his life undropping was great. You know it's a really good opportunity

00:40:43.760 | he was able to build on all of the

00:40:46.720 | Experience and industry contacts that he'd already gained by that time in his career

00:40:52.040 | It would have been totally different if he had zero contacts and no you know no chance

00:40:57.360 | So I think for that 40 year old you've got to ask yourself

00:40:59.880 | Well, what have you got and where you know?

00:41:01.960 | What's realistic from where you can go from here because you can start extreme saving at any point in your life

00:41:06.960 | You know it's just it's actually down to you to decide to make the lifestyle changes to start doing the extreme saving if you do

00:41:14.480 | It really intensively then in 10 years you can get to the point of financial independence

00:41:18.760 | So that 40 year old you know even even though it's actually starting out later within 10 years

00:41:25.040 | They could potentially replicate the kind of pattern that people like Jacob Lung Fisker and Mr.

00:41:30.120 | Money moustache and other people have done there are lots of people that age pursuing that approach

00:41:34.040 | But you could also say well as a 40 year old what have you got in terms of your?

00:41:39.400 | Insights into this industry that you work in what business could you start you know what what could be the opportunities?

00:41:46.240 | And it depends where you're at in terms of things like your kids what other financial responsibilities you have you know you once you get?

00:41:53.920 | To that age you've got a lot you're a lot more locked in to the previous decisions that you've made

00:41:57.640 | So I hope that my book can be most helpful to people who have

00:42:02.360 | Two younger people who are thinking about their approaches, but I think at any age you can it's still possible

00:42:08.680 | To change your direction, and you can still make incredible changes within you know

00:42:14.120 | What is within a lifetime of relatively short amount of time?

00:42:17.680 | so pretend you're counseling me again same scenario continuing on and

00:42:22.840 | I'm saying Jake I'm 40 years old and I was meeting with my financial advisor

00:42:27.000 | And I just doing a review of my 401k

00:42:29.000 | And I need to be saving more money in my 401k for retirement

00:42:33.600 | Because I'm gonna be 65 soon and my fear Jake is if I leave this job. I'm gonna lose my 401k and

00:42:40.520 | Things are very very uncertain. What do I do about my retirement?

00:42:45.480 | Well, I mean this is again a really

00:42:50.840 | important question that each person has to decide their own approach to risk and to

00:42:57.400 | Rewards you know it for me. I started

00:43:01.880 | Entrepreneurship when I had nothing to lose I had no money

00:43:07.160 | Well actually I had some savings that I put into the business that I'd

00:43:10.680 | Accumulated through my work, but I didn't have any kids

00:43:13.720 | I didn't have a wife and I was able to just go for it

00:43:17.540 | And I knew that after five or five years or so if it hadn't worked out well

00:43:23.240 | Then I would just go and get a job and it wouldn't be such a big deal

00:43:26.160 | And I would have still have all of that runway ahead of me

00:43:29.400 | I think it really depends for the person who's 14 who's really worried about their retirement and

00:43:35.640 | If they're very risk averse then you know the least risky route is always going to be the extreme savings route

00:43:42.640 | Because that route is always going to be the route that you you you stay and take advantage of whatever career position that you have

00:43:49.940 | But it depends how important it is to you to be job free

00:43:53.440 | That's what my book is about is about being job free and about living outside of a job and having the freedom

00:44:00.220 | To to be your own boss to not have somebody else to answer to to decide for yourself

00:44:05.020 | How you want to live for some people that's really important

00:44:09.080 | And it's worth taking some risks for and so you have to you have to decide for yourself

00:44:14.140 | How risk averse you are and whether or not you've left things to a point where you really need to focus first on saving

00:44:19.940 | For a while before you do anything else. So I would always say it's got to be an individual decision

00:44:25.420 | I was very focused on entrepreneurship and I was really willing to just go for it on the understanding that well

00:44:32.300 | I could just lose five years of my life on something that doesn't ultimately work out

00:44:35.700 | But I'll learn a huge amount in the process and that's that's fine. I'm fine with that

00:44:39.780 | I didn't mind the risk of failure and I didn't mind the fact that you know

00:44:45.220 | That would then be I the end of five years a project that was just done

00:44:48.780 | Other people find that really really challenging and in some ways that fear of failure is actually what stops a lot of other people

00:44:56.460 | from from really trying I

00:44:58.460 | Have a show title on my list of shows to create haven't done it yet. But the the title is

00:45:05.460 | Don't ask yourself the question of what will you do when you retire?

00:45:09.380 | ask yourself the question, what would you do if you could never retire and

00:45:13.580 | The idea is why don't we focus first on instead of talking about retiring comfortably?

00:45:20.420 | Why don't we talk about working comfortably?

00:45:22.420 | Because the constant theme that I see is people who are financially independent

00:45:27.020 | Very few of them stop working

00:45:29.700 | and so this idea that you must be financially independent in order to make the transition is

00:45:36.140 | I think it's false and

00:45:38.420 | by having these different paths

00:45:41.300 | You can I guess feel more confident about some of the decisions and then that was where I was kind of bringing in another aspect

00:45:47.860 | is

00:45:48.700 | retirement

00:45:50.460 | There are multiple paths to financial freedom and then even in and of itself retirement is it doesn't have to be done

00:45:56.060 | even if you don't actually have to be financially free to

00:45:59.340 | Build a little more of a lifestyle of freedom and and sometimes you might even go backward

00:46:04.340 | I had a client of mine who taught me this lesson and I've got a

00:46:07.780 | The way he taught it to me was I came to do financial planning and I was working on his portfolio

00:46:13.420 | But his portfolio wasn't very big

00:46:15.860 | but what he was doing is he had shut down a fairly successful business and

00:46:20.420 | Transitioned into an employee role in the same industry and then he was planning

00:46:25.100 | and

00:46:26.180 | When I first met him and he later did it he was planning to transition from

00:46:30.460 | Working as the employee in this business to going back to college as a guy in his mid-40s

00:46:35.540 | Going back to college and then getting a job working as a teacher

00:46:39.260 | because he loved history and he wanted to teach he wanted to teach high school history and

00:46:44.420 | he wanted to

00:46:46.700 | choose choose teaching so that he would have time to travel and

00:46:49.900 | Because teaching was something that he wanted to do and he could do it for a very long period of time

00:46:53.740 | and so he was making this transition from

00:46:56.820 | Kind of the the ends the ideal the big business back to employee and then back to totally different job

00:47:03.740 | because the job would would create more of a lifestyle for him and

00:47:07.380 | When you see all the different paths

00:47:10.980 | It blows so many holes in the standard US American approach of work a job 40 years and retire at 65

00:47:18.540 | That it's I wonder why anybody but once that path anymore

00:47:23.220 | Yeah, absolutely

00:47:24.220 | and that's why I

00:47:26.220 | Chose to focus on the concept of being job free rather than the concept of being financially independent because although financial independence is great

00:47:34.620 | It's not the only path to being job free and you can live a fulfilling wonderful life

00:47:39.300 | You know not being financially independent if you find ways of making ends meet

00:47:44.260 | That you know make you happy and that give you fulfillment because that ultimately that's the goal

00:47:48.780 | Financial freedom for me really is about not having to work in a job that you don't enjoy

00:47:54.100 | And if you don't have to work in a job that you that you don't like

00:47:57.500 | Then you have the freedom to do what you want with your time whether that is more

00:48:02.100 | Work that earns a lot of money or work that is fulfilling and doesn't earn so much money and in many ways

00:48:08.620 | you know it that's the key is that get breaking out of the paradigm of success being essentially

00:48:14.380 | Continually earning more and more until you get to the point where you're playing golf as a retiree because ultimately

00:48:18.940 | By that time first of all, you know, I don't like golf

00:48:22.420 | But by that time, you know

00:48:26.780 | You don't have the chance to really enjoy it because you've been stressed out

00:48:30.180 | All the way through your career trying to ultimately earn more and more money and I have seen that happen

00:48:35.860 | I've seen people get into that mindset where success is defined by how many toys you have and how much money you have and

00:48:43.820 | For me, you know when I sold my business

00:48:45.660 | I became a director in the international company that bought my business and I could have continued working there and earning a lot of

00:48:51.860 | Money and I could have built from that and gone on within the corporate world to you know

00:48:56.380 | a higher level corporate job and so forth, but I just didn't want to and I

00:49:00.180 | When I stopped working when I actually then at the end of the earn out period after I'd helped integrate my company

00:49:07.620 | you know, I stopped working to do things like travel and write books and do podcasts and

00:49:13.940 | These all of these things

00:49:15.940 | Involved me taking a massive cut in income that I could have had if I'd stayed in that corporate world

00:49:22.060 | But I didn't need it because that that money

00:49:24.100 | Wasn't ultimately gonna be nearly as fulfilling to me as the lifestyle of traveling the world with my wife

00:49:30.660 | Seeing all of the amazing beautiful things that there are to see, you know

00:49:34.540 | expressing my

00:49:35.740 | thoughts and hopefully being able to help other people through my books find freedom in their own way and these are the things that

00:49:42.260 | Bring meaning to my life. So why should I continue earning more? You know when I I have enough to do whatever I want

00:49:49.100 | Tell us the story of your friend Peter and what you learned by interacting with him and observing his life

00:49:55.940 | well Peter's story is one that I tell it in the book and

00:50:01.060 | and I found that a lot of people have really connected to it because

00:50:04.340 | Probably because I wanted to explain that I I did have a mentor when I was growing up

00:50:09.820 | I I met someone when I was a teenager. I was really trying to understand politics

00:50:14.820 | I was asking my parents lots of questions that they weren't able to understand

00:50:18.300 | They weren't able to answer and my mother suggested that I speak to this guy called Peter who'd previously been active in

00:50:23.540 | the same political group as her and

00:50:25.820 | I went to talk to him and and he would had become totally disillusioned with politics and he was

00:50:31.620 | Building a business. He was an entrepreneur and we became good friends

00:50:36.500 | And I asked him what his goals in life were

00:50:40.820 | After after knowing him for a bit and he was very clear and explicit with me that he planned to

00:50:46.620 | build a business get to the point of being a millionaire and

00:50:50.180 | then retire and

00:50:52.980 | Just do whatever he wanted which probably wouldn't be very much more than just reading interesting books and and you know having philosophical

00:50:59.380 | Conversations these are the kinds of things that he ultimately wanted to do

00:51:02.700 | I found that such an incredible thing to hear

00:51:06.340 | at that age because

00:51:08.980 | This was somebody who clearly planned to be a success in his chosen field

00:51:13.300 | and then he was just gonna quit and be a successful dropout and

00:51:16.780 | I'd not heard anyone talk about that and and the other thing that really impressed me was that

00:51:22.180 | This wasn't just a dream that you wanted to be a millionaire

00:51:25.300 | he was seriously planning it and he was absolutely going for it and

00:51:30.420 | Everything that he was doing with building his own business was leaning towards this goal and he was serious about implementing it

00:51:36.140 | you know, this wasn't just idle talk and that also made a huge impression on me because I I

00:51:41.300 | From took from that that you know, it's okay to take this seriously and to believe in doing it

00:51:48.260 | And not just to treat it like oh, wouldn't it be nice one day, you know

00:51:52.540 | And so that made a huge impression on me and in many ways

00:51:56.540 | Slowly it took time for it all to sort of sink in and I spent a lot of time in university

00:52:00.940 | I did postgraduate studies and eventually I did it even did a PhD

00:52:03.780 | But when I left university, I started my own business and I very much was following in his path

00:52:11.340 | he was an inspiration to me and

00:52:13.340 | I was following in this idea to that I could live a life free of jobs

00:52:18.740 | I could build my own business work for myself and then I could also at some point just

00:52:24.140 | Retire early or do whatever I want with my time

00:52:26.900 | What was interesting to me? So that was my mentor and in many ways by writing this book

00:52:32.740 | I'm hoping that other people can can see

00:52:35.140 | Lots of stories of people who've done this and this is one of the things about the book is to present not just Peter's story

00:52:41.580 | But different stories from other people who have interviewed of who've done this in their own way

00:52:45.940 | But an interesting thing happened with Peter which is that later on?

00:52:51.780 | After I'd been working very hard and building my own business. I finally managed to meet up with Peter again

00:52:56.860 | I hadn't seen him for a long time because I'd borrowed money from him to start my business. He'd been incredibly supportive and

00:53:02.820 | What I found when I met up with him again is that he was now a multi-millionaire

00:53:09.420 | He'd blown way past his original dream of becoming a millionaire. He was still making more and more money

00:53:14.700 | he was incredibly successful living in a mansion and he was incredibly unhappy and

00:53:20.460 | You know what happens that he had his goals had changed and he became more and more interested in

00:53:27.100 | the sort of more like

00:53:30.900 | outward shows of success

00:53:33.460 | Having the luxury car having the mansion

00:53:35.460 | Having lots and lots of women that he was seeing and lots of lots of women who were interested in him

00:53:41.140 | He gave up on love and he just wanted to you know, basically

00:53:44.660 | sleep with lots of beautiful women

00:53:47.300 | Which he was able to do because there were always lots of people who are interested in someone who's obviously very rich and successful

00:53:52.740 | like that, but what I saw was that he was unhappy and that his life, you know was not fulfilling to him and

00:53:58.740 | That made a huge impression on me too because I never gave up on his original dream

00:54:04.940 | Which it was always a big inspiration to me and I think it's really important to ask yourself

00:54:10.100 | How much is enough and what you really want? Do you want money or do you want freedom?

00:54:14.700 | And for me, it was always freedom and money is just a means to achieve more freedom in life

00:54:21.740 | and so, you know, I

00:54:23.740 | Had a mentor who was a great inspiration to me and who also was an inspiration again in a way because he changed course and our

00:54:30.940 | Lives went in the end went in different parts, but I still learned a huge amount from it

00:54:34.940 | I'd like to ask you a philosophical question

00:54:37.540 | you

00:54:41.620 | You're writing these this book and and

00:54:44.020 | Exploring these concepts which are expressing the fact that money as a goal in and of itself is rarely fulfilling

00:54:52.660 | Rather it's a tool and then you've described the story of you walking away from it

00:54:57.620 | but philosophically

00:55:00.180 | I believe that

00:55:01.780 | Although you write in the book that at 13 years old you were trying to become a Marxist at this point

00:55:06.460 | I would say that philosophically you see the value of a capitalist economy

00:55:11.620 | and

00:55:13.380 | I'm curious. How do you integrate this these seemingly?

00:55:17.060 | opposing

00:55:19.380 | Philosophies the one idea being in capitalism by pursuing our own economic self-interest and by building our fortunes

00:55:25.260 | We are we're motivated by that. That's commonly how it's perceived with the other being well if we build our happiness and

00:55:32.540 | Do that than that then we've got enough. How do you integrate these two seemingly opposing philosophies?

00:55:39.300 | Well, you know, I think so yeah, you're right just just to explain I the reason I originally wanted to

00:55:46.660 | Ask Peter lots of questions was that I was trying to understand socialism

00:55:51.420 | My parents were socialist and I wanted to be one too and I was reading Karl Marx's Das Kapital and trying to make sense of it

00:55:57.300 | and Peter was actually someone who was incredibly well read and and so and had previously been

00:56:04.180 | Interested a Marxist and been interested in all this stuff and it was through our conversations that I realized that none of that stuff made

00:56:10.620 | Any sense not only was it logically flawed but also incredibly destructive ideology and Peter recognized that too

00:56:16.860 | Which is something that I really admired

00:56:18.580 | But see he had the integrity

00:56:20.260 | When we talked about it under questioning to to acknowledge the faults in the arguments and to acknowledge how destructive they were

00:56:25.940 | But I also think that that does not mean that

00:56:29.180 | You know

00:56:31.940 | Entrepreneurship is all about

00:56:33.940 | Grabbing as much as you can and that you know, the one with the most toys wins

00:56:38.380 | So to speak what I see it as is it's the opportunity to live freely

00:56:43.420 | Which it means that you choose for yourself what is important in terms of what you consume, you know, if you want to consume

00:56:50.980 | Luxury goods if that's what makes you happy do it. I don't think there's anything evil or wrong with that

00:56:58.180 | Personally, I just don't think it's a very wise choice given it the cost benefits for myself

00:57:03.460 | It doesn't make any sense. You know, I I have

00:57:06.740 | never owned a car and I don't miss it and

00:57:10.660 | Up until the time when I was financially independent. I never owned any property

00:57:16.900 | I only stayed in a small rented apartment and I eventually bought a place once I once I'd sold my business

00:57:23.860 | But I didn't miss it. It wasn't important to me. And so what I see is as really what's so

00:57:29.980 | exciting about

00:57:32.460 | entrepreneurship and about the ability to

00:57:35.260 | Be an entrepreneur on the market and provide value to others is you can choose at what level you find

00:57:43.900 | Fulfillment if you find fulfillment having a tiny

00:57:49.380 | Lifestyle business that brings you just enough income to live in a low-cost place like Mexico or somewhere else

00:57:56.460 | And you know and you're having a great time

00:57:58.460 | Good for you. I think that's a wonderful way to live if you want to build

00:58:03.780 | You know the next billion dollar business and that's what you think is gonna be super exciting

00:58:09.140 | Then fine good for you, too

00:58:11.460 | I think it's it's a question of your choice and your freedom and nobody

00:58:17.140 | It's not a question of you know on the one hand

00:58:19.260 | everyone has to

00:58:22.340 | We have to collectivize everything and and and you know

00:58:26.620 | Nobody should have anything more than anyone else on the other hand somehow a free market approach is more that oh

00:58:31.540 | You just everyone's got to grab as much as they possibly can I think in in the in the?

00:58:36.180 | the freedom that matters to me is the freedom to choose for yourself and for everyone to have the choice of the

00:58:42.460 | Lifestyle that makes most sense to them and I think money is an incredibly valuable tool

00:58:47.060 | But not the end in itself. And so that that's sort of how I see that philosophical difference

00:58:53.640 | yeah, I think that's a good point and and

00:58:55.640 | That's where the distinction

00:58:58.620 | Where when you get into political philosophy and political ideology?

00:59:01.740 | Many times I've seen that the wealthiest people tend to be extremely generous and what is frustrating to people who especially who are wealthy is

00:59:12.220 | That it's it's it's when it's their choice to be generous taxation is not charity

00:59:17.980 | taxation is

00:59:20.980 | Staffed at the end of a gun and so regardless of whether it's taxation to support

00:59:26.180 | the president's White House in the United States or

00:59:29.660 | Whatever the equivalent is in the UK or whether it's taxation to support the global war machine or whether it's taxation to give to the poor

00:59:37.340 | person down the street

00:59:39.020 | The reason doesn't matter. It wasn't a voluntary choice. So that's very different than

00:59:44.460 | generosity and charity

00:59:46.700 | Which many many people find at least many people wealth people who I've worked with they find a deep sense of meaning and purpose

00:59:54.260 | behind that so often people just see those political ideologies or those philosophies as

01:00:00.380 | The whole idea of capitalism is to get as much money as you can. Well, that's that's not true

01:00:05.180 | It's it's the freedom of choice as you describe go ahead. Yeah, not only that but also the thing that's really exciting to me

01:00:11.500 | Is that being an entrepreneur and you know, most of these job free lifestyles have some element of entrepreneurship in them

01:00:17.980 | You know that is about providing value. That's how the world gets better that these are positive

01:00:24.660 | Non-political things that you can do to make a real impact on the world

01:00:29.900 | Not only is it great to achieve as much freedom as you can in your own life to find fulfillment

01:00:36.220 | But I see true entrepreneurship the kind where you you know

01:00:40.780 | You're a genuine entrepreneur providing value to others as how the world gets better

01:00:45.020 | That is how we have all of the great benefits of all of the innovation and you know

01:00:50.180 | Amazing things that the power our lifestyle today is through entrepreneurs

01:00:54.260 | it's entrepreneurs that brought those things to the world because

01:00:56.780 | Everything through entrepreneurship is voluntary and one of the great benefits to me of living a job-free lifestyle

01:01:03.220 | Is that you get to choose according to your own ethics?

01:01:07.660 | How you make money and what you think is the right way to live?

01:01:11.780 | Derek Sivers makes this point in his book about his business that when you start your own business

01:01:17.140 | You're creating your own little utopia. It's up to you to decide how people should be treated

01:01:22.820 | You know what you consider to be decent and the right way to live and you you can do it

01:01:28.260 | You can choose to do good in your own way by providing value voluntarily

01:01:33.980 | And you don't have to you know put up with any nonsense from an employer who may have a vision

01:01:40.300 | That's different to yours who you may think they don't have as much integrity as you if you have any

01:01:46.060 | If there's any question of the integrity of the business

01:01:48.940 | It's down to you and it's your responsibility to do that and that's both a challenge and a wonderful opportunity. Yeah, that's

01:01:56.780 | You've said it well and that's what's so frustrating to me about most modern political conversation is

01:02:06.340 | What has happened in our modern era is we've come to the point where?

01:02:11.180 | People often say well the way that we make change is I force my desired change on everyone else and then everything will be fine

01:02:18.140 | Instead of people saying I'm just gonna go make change. That's why I one of the reasons why I love entrepreneurship

01:02:23.620 | There's a famous story forget the guy's name in this business, but there was the guy who?

01:02:26.780 | CEO of a company up in the Northwest Pacific Northwest in the United States who?

01:02:31.620 | Cut his salary his his very high salary and cut his salary down to seventy five thousand dollars

01:02:38.140 | Increased all of us employees wages massively and he had all the all the news

01:02:42.500 | Great, you know all the these laudatory news

01:02:45.900 | Stories about how wonderful the CEO was for this decision and I fully supported his actions

01:02:52.300 | but what made me so frustrated and watching the scenarios like that was that

01:02:56.940 | Everyone automatically wanted to use that as a

01:03:01.740 | Reason to employ violence against everyone else or the threat of violence and say well, that's why you should do that

01:03:10.220 | So instead of saying hey, let this guy lead by example and good for him. It's his money. He made the choice

01:03:15.180 | It's automatically well, we've got a cap all the other CEOs pays. We got a cap everyone else

01:03:19.740 | We've got to automatically take our perspective and up and and force it on to everyone else and it's a major

01:03:25.220 | It's a major problem in the modern society that we automatically

01:03:29.100 | Think of using force and saying I'm gonna force everyone else to do what I think is right instead of simply saying

01:03:34.620 | I'm just gonna go do it. I'm gonna show you how I do it

01:03:37.460 | I'm gonna run my business the way that I want to run it

01:03:39.460 | And if you want to see change you go run your business the way that you want to run it

01:03:43.980 | Yeah, I think anytime you see a problem in the world

01:03:48.020 | The the most productive question you can ask is how could I?

01:03:53.980 | create a venture that would voluntarily

01:03:57.860 | Help this problem be solved and you know, if if you're if you're right, then you've seen entrepreneurial

01:04:04.820 | Opportunity if you see that there's a pain point in the way that people live and that it could be made better

01:04:11.140 | You know, you could save people time. You could save people

01:04:13.700 | Heartache you could save people whatever it is. Then there's an entrepreneurial opportunity there and the really the the way with real

01:04:22.460 | Integrity to try and help is to actually do it voluntarily which which ultimately means start your own business and and help people

01:04:29.780 | And if you do help people they'll pay for it and it will fund the business and it will you know

01:04:34.220 | Fund the whole venture forward in terms of making an impact on the world. This is in fact

01:04:38.980 | For me the most fulfilling aspect of entrepreneurship, you know, the financial independence is wonderful

01:04:44.220 | But I suggest that whether it's a lifestyle business or a startup

01:04:48.500 | I think if you do it because you are excited about making a difference

01:04:53.420 | You know and in your case Joshua

01:04:55.620 | You are obviously excited about helping people achieve a better control of their finances and more financial freedom

01:05:01.420 | Then the money is great. But every day that you do this you're really living your purpose

01:05:07.740 | Which is a wonderful way to live. Yeah, Jake as you were writing and researching and now finishing the publication of this book

01:05:15.060 | What was probably the biggest?

01:05:17.580 | Change in your mindset

01:05:19.860 | What was the thing that stood out to you as you were going through and editing and editing and editing where you said wow

01:05:24.580 | I didn't quite see that before I started this project, but now I really I really see this point. I

01:05:31.180 | think what changed for me is that I

01:05:36.060 | Through doing this research, you know

01:05:37.820 | I I started from a position of being an entrepreneur and I very much was in the start up route and I saw

01:05:45.020 | Or that as I mentioned before my mentor

01:05:48.100 | The person I looked up to had taken this route I saw that as

01:05:54.060 | freedom and what I realized the more people I interviewed on my podcast of voluntary life and

01:06:00.700 | Found that the more I found that there were other people who would achieve their own sense of freedom and their own job-free lifestyle

01:06:06.660 | In different ways the more I realized that you know, this is not it's not just my way

01:06:10.940 | There are other ways to do this and the more I realized also how often there isn't that much overlap between these different

01:06:17.380 | communities of people who have found ways to live job free

01:06:20.860 | I think your podcast is an interesting one because you speak about all of these different approaches with different people

01:06:26.580 | But often you know, there's there is not that much overlap for example between start-up entrepreneurs and extreme savers

01:06:33.540 | I think in many ways those two communities don't really know each other and they don't I don't think that the extreme savers have much

01:06:39.740 | Of an insight as to what it is like to be a start-up entrepreneur

01:06:42.620 | And I don't think the start-up entrepreneurs have much of an insight as to what it is like to be an extreme saver

01:06:47.460 | And yet in many ways

01:06:48.980 | I think they share many similar values and many opportunities to learn from each other and I certainly found

01:06:54.660 | that I learned a huge amount by looking at these other approaches and

01:06:58.260 | Seeing you know the the the ways that you can find freedom

01:07:01.860 | and so now I like to to pick and choose and take from all of these approaches the things that are meaningful to me and

01:07:08.420 | Philosophically I can learn a huge amount from all of them

01:07:11.300 | But that's what happened to me through doing the research for the book

01:07:14.260 | Was it really opened my mind to the different options that are out there? I

01:07:18.620 | Love the book. I'll just as a

01:07:22.660 | Absolute endorsement here. Oh Jake sent me an advance review copy and I sent him back a little blurb for his publicity

01:07:27.780 | And i'll just read my blurb. Here's what I sent him. I said this book is a required introductory text for anyone who is interested in achieving

01:07:35.940 | financial independence

01:07:37.860 | You will save years of misdirected work

01:07:39.860 | If you begin with a clear plan and jake's book provides the outlined plan that you need the book is really really good

01:07:46.580 | It's very concise

01:07:48.740 | The estimated length on amazon is 96 pages

01:07:52.180 | The price is great right now on amazon. I'll put a direct link to the book through it radical personal finance.com slash job free

01:07:59.860 | So radical personal finance.com slash job free or i'll put that link in the the notes and blog post for today's post

01:08:05.780 | But it's it's 3.99 on kindle right now, and it's also part of the kindle unlimited package

01:08:11.780 | So if you are a subscriber to kindle unlimited, uh, get over to job free and check the book out. I'd love to see

01:08:18.020 | The book, uh really grow and rise in popularity because I think you've written something that's incredibly useful

01:08:22.980 | Uh, jake and again, it's it's for anyone who's interested in financial independence

01:08:27.240 | Take a I don't know. What do you think it takes an hour to read hour and a half?

01:08:30.900 | I mean, it's not it's 100 pages. So

01:08:32.980 | um

01:08:33.940 | Take yeah, you can read it. You can read it in in an afternoon if you if you want if you're interested

01:08:37.860 | I've had people who've told me that actually that they just read it in one sitting because they were really interested

01:08:42.100 | Yeah, you can and it's it's just so

01:08:44.340 | clear to provide those outlines

01:08:47.380 | because it provides

01:08:49.380 | The choice that that people need

01:08:52.660 | And exactly the point that that you've said throughout this interview many times people say well this path is the right one and and and

01:08:59.460 | and they don't recognize that

01:09:01.780 | There are many paths and so for some people extreme savings. That's all they need some people unjobbing is all they need

01:09:07.540 | I've gone through the transition. I started with the goal of creating lifestyle business

01:09:12.180 | um now i'm

01:09:14.500 | Moving on to kind of the startup world

01:09:17.220 | And and you can pursue all of them, but but the key is by having them identified in your mind. You will be empowered

01:09:22.580 | uh with

01:09:25.140 | The ability to look at your own situation and judge what's best for you. So jake I thank you for writing the book

01:09:30.900 | Uh, thank you for coming on the show. Uh also mentioned. Let's see. You've got the podcast. Is it the voluntary life.com?

01:09:36.900 | I think you would the yes. Okay. So the voluntary life.com

01:09:39.620 | podcast the voluntary life podcast

01:09:42.020 | Um, and if you're interested in in a really great

01:09:44.900 | Insight into somebody who's living the financially independent lifestyle, uh, check out jake's podcast as well

01:09:49.940 | Thank you so much. Joshua. It's been really fun talking to you

01:09:53.540 | Your homework now is to take the information in today's show and to think about your different options

01:09:59.720 | Expect those options to change

01:10:05.060 | When I started I had done a little bit of savings but not extreme savings and I was primarily focusing on building the lifestyle business

01:10:12.740 | Now that i've built the lifestyle business and that's starting to to function now

01:10:16.740 | I'm looking at saying well, am I really creating a startup or am I just building a bigger business? I don't know

01:10:21.380 | But if you think about these different options

01:10:23.060 | I believe you can use all of them at different points in your life depending on where you are and having them

01:10:28.100 | Firmly in mind will help you

01:10:31.140 | You know unjobbing you want to go travel the world don't have a lot of money figure out an unjobbing gig that you can do

01:10:35.860 | so

01:10:37.940 | I hope you can gain inspiration from the different stories and the different strategies

01:10:42.020 | And then you can design whichever one of these strategies is the best for you

01:10:45.140 | I strongly urge you to go and check out jake's book. It's well worth the money

01:10:49.540 | From the time I recorded the interview today. I was trying to figure out whether the cost has changed

01:10:54.580 | I'll link on the show notes and blog post for today's show through to the book on amazon

01:10:59.140 | Uh, that'll be an affiliate link

01:11:00.660 | So if you use that I get a commission for selling you the book. Thank you for that, by the way

01:11:04.260 | Uh, but it just check the check the current price, but it's well worth reading

01:11:08.500 | this is this book is officially on my list of

01:11:11.460 | Must read books when building out a plan for for financial independence because it'll save you a lot of time

01:11:17.380 | It'll save you possibly years. I know I would have been saved years if I had read this book in the beginning

01:11:22.740 | So if you have any interest at all in financial freedom financial independence

01:11:25.480 | Make sure to read the book and save yourself some serious time check out. Uh, jake's all of jake's information his podcast his website

01:11:33.220 | Jake does a really good job. His show is not very commercial. His website is not very commercial

01:11:37.300 | He already made some money. I'm sure he makes money on a few things here and there but he's writing these books

01:11:41.620 | He's traveling the world. He's really he puts his money where his mouth is and in the world of internet marketing

01:11:45.860 | I find that refreshing i'd rather listen to guys like jake than the latest guru to sell you

01:11:50.340 | Sell you the latest greatest system

01:11:52.420 | So check out all this information at thevoluntarylife.com

01:11:54.420 | If this show has been valuable to you i'd appreciate your support on patreon

01:11:58.180 | You can find all the details of that at radicalpersonalfinance.com/patron

01:12:01.860 | Thank you to the new patrons who have signed up in the last few days. I appreciate your supporting me

01:12:07.060 | Radicalpersonalfinance.com/patron for all that information and I will be back with you soon

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