Today in radical personal finance we talk with Jake the Silas and we talked about his brand new book called job free four ways To quit the rat race and achieve financial freedom on your terms If you're interested in achieving financial independence and financial freedom, this is a must listen to interview and a must-read book Because you need to know your options before you begin This is a great place to start You Welcome to the radical personal finance podcast.

My name is Joshua sheets and I'm your host. Thank you for being with me today today We got a good one for you. We love to talk about financial independence on the radical personal finance podcast Love to talk about all the different ways that you can accomplish this goal But I always in the past with kind of missing the framework.

I didn't quite have the framework Well, Jake the Silas gives us the framework and we've got to choose your own adventure so you can decide what's right for you. I First saw Jake give these four options in a presentation a long time ago But I and I asked him to come on and do an interview but he wanted to wait because he was writing a book On the subject.

Well that book is out now. I'm thrilled to bring the interview in the discussion to you You're gonna enjoy the content today because we're not just talking about the book. We're talking about the subject so in many ways today's show will serve as a little mini course a mini course on the different options that you have so many people get fixated on their one way that they know of to create financial independence and they forget about the other options and I think Jake's done a great Job of bringing together all your different options so that you can figure out which path is going to fit you Most of us are pursuing this goal of financial independence and financial freedom I am but we're probably pursuing it in different ways and it'll be valuable I think to you to to know the different ways for a play the interview for you cover in a sponsors for today's show sponsored number one is trade King trade King is the official brokerage sponsor of radical personal finance basically works like this if you have any interest in trading stocks or if you have any interest In creating your own super cheap portfolio Open an account with trade King four dollar ninety five cent trades And if you open it through our special referral link, not only will that help them to track my performance?

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And now here is the interview with Jake Jake welcome back to radical personal finance. Hi Joshua. It's a pleasure to be here So first question is I see we're talking on Skype. I see from Your Skype location that you are in I guess Panama City Panama right now. Is that right?

Yeah, that's right in sunny Panama and loving it here so quick personal update as I understand it you and you and your girlfriend you guys have Sold everything you digitized everything you hit the road and you're doing the full-time vagabond thing. Is that right? yep, that's it the last it's been a Progressive project over the last couple of years, you know We we started spending six months abroad each winter to get away from the cold of England And we were coming back to England and we just decided, you know let's just go for it and and sell the flat get rid of all of our stuff and And slow travel the world.

And so that's what we've chosen to do. It's been a really liberating process. It's been I've learned a huge amount through getting rid of all my stuff and becoming minimalist and and choosing this lifestyle and the first place that we've chosen is Panama and we actually got here and like it so Much that we're gonna stick around here for a while and and check it out, you know more because there's just so much going on Here, it's really dynamic.

It's an amazing city and it's a very much a Place with a lot of innovation and entrepreneurship and growth. And so yeah, that's where we're calling home for the moment So I was picturing that you'd gone on a multiple country tour, but you flew from England to Panama and and there you stay Well, yeah, because our plan has always been not really to go, you know from hotel to hotel But rather to actually live in different countries for at least six months and then you know See how we feel and move on from there And so we're doing slow travel because that way, you know You really get to feel what it's like to live somewhere you get to meet people locally and and actually experience life in a place Otherwise it can become a bit of a blur and that was our experience when we were staying in Mexico We were staying in places for at least a couple of months sometimes longer and one, you know One of one year we went from place to place every couple of months in another year We just stayed in one place for six months So that's the way that we like to do it because it gives us more of an insight Into you know, what life is like in different places And so the first place is gonna be Panama and you know We're just gonna play it by ear and see how it goes I read when I read travel logs seems like people who go out on traveling the first six months or a year They just go go go go go go go and then if they're still on the road They start to slow down and say why did we go so fast?

So maybe it's just the personality a thing at the moment I'm like, how would you stay in one city when there's so many places to go but here past that initial Frantic phase and you're into the to the to the regular phase. It sounds like yeah The first time we did a couple of long long term travel trips We we were doing more of the frantic phase we went all the way down through Latin America through Argentina and then back up through Chile and It was great.

It was really good fun But it's more of a holiday than than living and you know We we both have lots of things that we want to be getting on with as well My wife runs a personal development website and I'm writing and doing my podcast and stuff So, you know, that's the the plan is to actually experience life on the ground and we've already met some really nice people here in Panama So it's definitely working out the way we like it final question practically speaking So if you're staying that much time like what is selling all your stuff mean?

I mean how many suitcases do you have? Do you have things that you're shipping from each house or are you? Really still in we only have a couple of suitcases worth of stuff phase No, we've we're down to two bags each so one hold luggage bag and one cabin bag and everything I own fits in in those two bags and so, you know that we just got rid of everything and it was it was Incredibly liberating because I realized traveling that most of the stuff we were putting in storage.

I didn't even think about I didn't miss and You know war obviously renting furnished places and you can rent great apartments with all the furniture that you need and everything and we're staying in a place that has a pool and Everything we could need for a nice comfortable life here.

But you know all of my Photographs and my data and my projects they all live in the cloud now anyway or in encrypted drives in the cloud or on you know and places that I can access from the internet and So really we just have some clothes and and our laptops That's it.

It's great I've listened to some of your shows on the practical things you learned of downsizing and we've made a lot of progress in our family we sold our big house got rid of a lot of stuff there and I've got a giant bin full of photos and I keep thinking Okay, am I gonna follow through and get these things digitized?

I got a giant pen of old CDs and I gotta go through and digitize and get rid of all that stuff And my CDs aren't even the music which is easy if they were just music. I just dump them They're all personal development stuff, which a little harder to stream on on on Pandora But but it's inspiring and who knows maybe we'll join you someday So I want to talk about this book that you have recently published.

I'm very excited for it I remember you gave a speech on this topic and I had reached out to you I guess I was probably a year ago now and I said listen I want to interview you specifically on the topic and you said wait for the book So the book is here and so we can do it.

So what's the name of your book and what's it about? So the book is called job free and it's about four ways to quit the rat race achieve financial freedom on your own terms and So what I'm doing is really describing different approaches to getting out of unfulfilling jobs and finding a way to live free of jobs and That's the this sort of aim of the book is to to really provide an overview of the different approaches that you can take both based on my own experience having gone through entrepreneurship and building and selling a business and Also based on all the people that I've interviewed who found different ways to live job free I love the topic and I wish I'd written the book.

I'm just gonna steal it from now on It's it's on my required reading list I think your brain and my brain works similarly in some ways where we'd like to categorize things and it's not What annoys me about the finance world as people always say this is the way you have to do it and I look and say Well, that's one way and that can work well for this type of person in these circumstances But here's another way who can which can work better and I think that's what you've effectively Done with this book is you've outlined Here are the four different ways to quit the rat race and achieve financial freedom on your term on your terms and you can choose Which of these is appropriate for you here are advantages and disadvantages so the book is a perfect introductory text for anyone who is interested in Just develop anyone who's interested in in Figuring out the different approaches and then figuring out what's right for them So what are the four ways to actually accomplish this goal of quitting the rat race?

Right. So the four ways that I've found I mean every everyone's journey is different and I've interviewed a lot of people on my podcast and read different people's stories and some people combine different approaches, but I think it's helpful to think of four fundamental approaches that you can kind of take bits from and So the different approaches that I've found are I call them extreme saving Which is very much in the tradition of the sort of Joe Dominguez your money or your life You know You have a job and you save and save more than 50% ideally 75% So you can get to the point of financial independence and then you live job free because you can just quit your job and live From your investments.

So that's one approach, but there are other approaches, too I mean there's an approach called unjobbing which is an approach which is to say well I don't want to work for somebody else. I don't want a job that's unfulfilling I want to do work that is meaningful to me and I find it fulfilling every day that brings me joy and Happiness and sometimes that kind of work doesn't pay as much as a you know, a job that is less fulfilling So people who take the unjobbing route are often freelancers or they have multiple side hustles and different projects But they choose often to live very frugally in order to do work.

So it really brings them Joy, and that way it's not like a job So that's the second one The third one is really the idea of having a lifestyle business and this is where you choose to develop a business That's going to give you income So that you have the freedom to live as you choose and a lot of the people who choose location independent lifestyles and have online businesses that give them an income and allow them to You know not have to go to work every day not have to commute and do all those things but just live from that kind of income choose this approach and property would be another typical example of a lifestyle business and lastly is The idea of having a startup and this was my route and that's where rather than build a business that is going to just give you income often as a solopreneur often which is what a lot of the lifestyle entrepreneurs are a Startup is where you're really focusing on building the value in a business.

You're building an enterprise That's going to grow it's going to have a massive impact and ultimately it's going to have value as a business so that you can Potentially one day sell your business and then use that Financial independence to give you the freedom to do whatever you want with your time.

And so those are the four different routes It's basically extreme saving Lifestyle businesses and startups. I want to hang some examples on these so people can understand I'll do the first one you do the next three of try to just mention some examples of popular media personalities The first one is the dominant theme in this kind of personal finance early retirement financial independence space the extreme savings so you mentioned Joe Dominguez Vicky Robbins with Just blanked on the book Well money or your money or your life Also popularized mr.

Money mustache the leading figure in the online space Jacob Yeah Lund Fisker early retirement extreme also guests that we've had on the show many many guests from this situation ranging from Joe Rebel spy from the money mustache forum. We just had him on many many of my guests have been in this extreme savings perspective where everything is based upon the Based upon the savings rate.

I feel like this one is currently a little bit over representative Give some examples of popular or somewhat known personalities that fit the other three the other three categories Sure. Well, I mean, let's take for example Lifestyle businesses. I mean, I think this is really where you see things like Tim Ferriss is for our work week was a book that was highly influential in getting people to think about this type of approach and a lot of People used that book even though Tim himself did various things including selling a business.

He really popularized this idea of focusing on having a business that's going to give you income so you can live as you want and The the approach has been taken by a lot of the people who pursue Lots sort of travel based entrepreneurship There's a book called Building a freedom business and all the authors name actually slips my mind for a moment But there's different different people have taken that approach.

So that's lifestyle businesses. Then if you think about startups My experience was through building a startup But a person who's written a really nice book about that approach is Derek Sivers And he built the business CD baby and eventually sold it for 20 million and he now lives From you know the income that he made from from selling that business and does various other projects, right?

And and and so that's some examples there, but there's also this thing called unjobbing and there's lots of people living Sort of unjobbing style lifestyles the person I think is really most Representative of this is a guy called Michael Fogler who actually wrote a book called unjobbing and he writes about his own experience He was trained as a classical guitarist and he tried for many years to get a job as a teaching position as a classical guitarist and He found after many years that he hadn't been able to get a full-time appointment doing that But he'd made money just doing lots of other things You know various side hustles and part-time work and this and that and eventually he realized he just didn't want a full-time job And so he pursued that lifestyle living as frugally as he could So that so that he could then pursue things that were meaningful to him and he did various things He was a peace activist and then he did some writing various other things that brought him fulfillment The startup idea I think is the most historically popular This was the this was the way that when I was young and I was talking with my brothers about how we were gonna get Rich it was okay.

We're gonna build a big business and then As you said Ferris pop I think did more to popularize the idea of the lifestyle business just build a business that's big enough But it's fuzz on flexible terms anyone else that's well developed Then extreme savings has been somewhat developed especially over the last few years with with the rise of personal finance blocks but this unjobbing one, this is still I think the Not the black hole, but this is the one that I don't I don't really connect with very very much I guess the closest I get is sometimes when I read books on how to sail full-time and they talk about well pull into port And do this little do this little deal here and do this little deal there Are people talking about this as an attractive option?

well, I think it really depends on on what is important to you and You know for me and I think for a lot of your listeners to financial independence Is something that I thought was a really important goal to have? To know that I could have the financial independence to do whatever I wanted with my time The downside from unjobbing is that you don't have that financial independence.

So you're gonna have to continue You know making a living somehow Through the process of unjobbing but there are lifestyles like that that you describe that some people Want to travel and they choose to go and work on cruise ships or whatever because that gives them the lifestyle that they want to do other things like travel and and and that they find fulfilling or People who work, you know as in musician as musicians or in jobs that you know You may not actually be earning as much as you could in other ways But if you find it fulfilling then that's fine the other way to think about it, I think is really just if you I think you can be a very successful and job But if you have highly valued skills and you're able to freelance, you know If you have good connections with an industry So a friend of mine worked for many years as a management consultant and he loved the work He found it very fulfilling but it's one of the industries where it is Totally full-on you work very long hours you work very intensively and you do earn fairly good money as an employee But what he found was that when he had enough industry contacts, he was able to get to the point where he could do freelance work on his own as a freelance consultant on one or two projects a month just Working for equivalent of a couple of days a week and it was work that he enjoyed But he didn't need to do all of the stress and hassle of being within a firm and having the constant pressure that goes with the employee status Tell us the Elliot Hulse story.

What was his path? So Elliot Hulse is another person who I think represents a similar approach to the unjobbing approach. He's very much someone who who's interested in ways of Finding out how you can work on things that are fulfilling to you and he's basically a YouTube personality He has a couple of YouTube channels.

He's a strength trainer and his approach is is very much about He runs a business And a gym and teaches people to become the strongest versions of themselves as he puts it And basically what it is is a whole kind of philosophy of life built around his strength training, which is not just In terms of exercise, but also in terms of what it means to be the strongest version of yourself And the reason I think he's interesting from the unjobbing perspective is that he's talked a lot About how important it is to him to not be constrained by some unfulfilling job and to find a way to make it work In doing what is fulfilling to him and that's actually what he's done He's actually very successful in his business and he he's also got a page called the non-job Manifesto, which he talks about this idea of finding a way to work outside the job paradigm So whereas Michael Fogler who wrote the book?

Unjobbing is an example of someone who lives very very frugally because that allows him to do the things that he wants to Elliot Hulse is an example of someone who's built a business around what he's truly passionate about And so it's not really work to him because he really enjoys doing it, but it's also a very successful business I'm not extensively familiar with Elliot Hulse's work but I do know that I saw a presentation from him at one point that that dramatically affected me and He was talking about simply Not accepting any other alternative and just being willing to do whatever it takes and to utilize the resources that many people ignore And his point and I think this may have been reality in his story Correct me after I share the story, please but his point was that in today's world if you got to go down and live in the homeless shelter and get food stamps to get your groceries and get handouts in the homeless shelter and then go and Build your business using the free computer at the local library and get a you know, so that you can you know in his case you you You live in the you live like a homeless person or wherever you can get so that you can have the two hundred dollars You need to go buy a camera and again edit the videos of the local library and publish them online That just be determined and don't settle for nothing Don't don't settle for it and in hearing somebody present that it made me think to myself and it was a real encouragement to me To realize that that was simply a mental shift that I was willing if I were willing to do that I could make the mental shift that I'm gonna make this work Even if it means I wind up totally broke even if it means I wind up living on food stamps Even if it means I wind up You know again using the library Why not use those resources and get rid of my excuses and it was scary Because I realized that the major things that were holding me back are just were excuses But it was also really inspiring because I just realized yes in today's modern world use the use the the the social safety net that our Societies have evidently decided is important use that to get what you want out of life Yeah, and I think there are some similarities between some of this kind of philosophical ideas behind the extreme saving movement and undropping and what a lot of people who are interested in undropping talk about is how the Consumer culture that we're in can really prevent you from doing what you want with your life if you just take as a default assumption that you need to have a nice house with a big mortgage and you know, all of the Consumer goods that make you feel like you fit in to these surroundings you know both the extreme savers and the unjobbers have really emphasized that These things come at an enormous cost to your freedom if you want to save for financial independence And if that's what's really meaningful for you Then you can take a look at what you're spending your money on and realize a lot of that stuff is not Getting you to where you want to go in terms of one day achieving financial independence So the way the extreme savers go is say right I'm gonna live super frugally and I'm gonna put away 75% of my income so that I one day I will be just living off my Investments and then I will do whatever I want and the unjobbers say right I'm not gonna take on this massive mortgage and you know All of these other things that are more about keeping up with my neighbors What I'm gonna do is say the thing that really matters to me is to work on what I'm passionate about And if that means I'm gonna live super frugally for a while or even with longer term That doesn't matter because what's important to me is what's gonna what I'm gonna find fulfilling and yes Elliot Holson in the in the book I talk about the interview I did with him where he describes how he talked to his wife about this when he started his business He was saying, you know, if this doesn't work out we might be living in the car But this is something that he they talked through and they they wanted to work out How important was it and what did they what were they willing to sacrifice?

I think a lot of times it's so easy to just take the default Symbols of success, which is the big house the nice car and all of these other things and think right Well, of course, I need those because otherwise I'd be a loser And so what I want is I want those and I also want a business that's really exciting and fulfilling to me Or I want to be able to travel and so on and so forth and the key there is to say well really You know, how fulfilling is it to you to have that luxury car or that nice house?

Is it really fulfilling or is it something that you're giving yourself in order to make up for the dreariness? Of the job that you have in order to pay for that stuff Seems like so many of the chains that keep people And not everybody who's working a job living in a mainstream lifestyle many people and I get emails from listeners Sometimes I try to remind me and it's important reminders Not everybody who's living in a house with a white picket fence with a three-year-old car working a corporate job They're not living in chains.

Okay, so but there are but there are some people who are Just want to recognize that not everyone needs to pursue These paths but so many of the chains that keep some people stuck in a place. They don't want to be are mental They're not actual they don't actually exist.

They're mental chains and it comes down to a scale of Priority a ranking of priorities. I have a I have a $5,000 car and have a $500 car and I like to drive my little $500 car there are times when I recognize it's not socially appropriate I like to drive it because it gets me down the road and I often my wife and I were with some friends recently and there's a young couple and We were in there.

They had a beautiful house two brand new cars in the in the driveway and We don't talk about money. It's not that kind of relationship I know enough about their financial situation to know that they are not wealthy They are enjoying their they're spending their income and I just looked at and I said it's it's not at all Attractive to me anymore and my self-worth is now sufficient that I can happily pull up in their driveway in my $500 car and Happily enjoy the beauty of this nice house and go away with I don't have any envy.

I don't have any jealousy I have if anything a sense of Compassion because they're stuck and I'm not it's a mental chain though. It's not a it's not a physical thing It's a mental ability to cross over that hurdle to be okay with with your life choices Yeah, I think I really resonate with everything that you've said there and I think it's really important to you just pick up on the first thing you said to make the point that I don't consider jobs to be inherently bad or Deloitative or like a bad way to live and in fact jobs are incredibly important and helpful especially in the early stages of your career for gaining experience gaining contacts, whatever your plans are whether it's to start your own business or Work towards financial independence through extreme saving or whatever So I think it's really important because sometimes when people want to break out they they can really get a bit polarized between seeing that sort of typical if you like job lifestyle as being Inherently bad and then their way as being the only true path and my book is not about that It's about really just challenging the default assumptions You if you if you are happy in your job and you're having a great time and you enjoy spending your money in the way That you're spending it great.

The problem is if you have taken on those assumptions typically through schooling especially because we're all Trained to be employees all of our teachers are lifelong employees and they never teach Anything else except how to get a job and keep a job So if you just brought up with those assumptions Then it can get you to the point where without knowing it You have lost the opportunities for freedom that you really could take simply because you've not been you know Able to break out of that paradigm So that's what I'm hoping that this can help do is to give people as you said Especially in the beginning stages a real overview of the different options that are open outside the realm of getting and keeping a good job the entrepreneurial options and other options that are about living job free which you're not going to get taught in school and Which you're not going to get taught by university lecturers That so that those type of options are open to all of us and we live in such an amazing Time of opportunity to pursue those options and the sad thing is a lot of people just by default Take on these assumptions and get into that lifestyle where before they know it.

They've got huge debts they've got a massive mortgage to pay off and they're living on, you know, consumer debt and Paying for things with credit cards and then once you've taken on all of those responsibilities It's it's much harder to really break out of it Which of these four paths to financial freedom is the easiest?

Well, I think it depends a lot on your character on what you want and on what's gonna make you happy I mean for example, I think in some ways if you're really stuck and you don't know what to do Then the default option I would suggest is to go for the extreme saving route, you know save Money if you don't yet know what what kind of business you could start or if you don't have the skills or you don't have the contacts then Saving is great because first of all, you can just continue along that path and continue until you gradually build up more and more levels of financial freedom, but also It gives you the capital to then start your own business or do other things when you do have that in mind and when you do Have that approach so, you know, I think if you're really stuck I would suggest that the saving route is The one to go for but then again, it depends on your on your character.

I was always Really excited by the idea of entrepreneurship that to me was not just a goal Finally to achieve financial independence, but that seemed like an amazing awesome opportunity a great adventure that I wanted to do and so the doing of it was a very fulfilling thing for me, too and You know in fact the the mentor that I met very early in my teen years who I Sort of looked up to was an entrepreneur and I wanted to I saw what he was doing and he had a very clear plan To achieve financial independence through entrepreneurship.

So that was a path to me. That was very Tangible I could see that it's possible I could see other people doing it and I wanted to follow it other people just Don't like the idea of being an entrepreneur and for them it wouldn't be the right path So I think that you know as I say, I think in terms of like a default choice I would say the savings if you you know, if you can't think of anything that you want to do otherwise, that's the easiest one to do because even though it's quite hard to live the lifestyle of Extreme frugality.

It's relatively straightforward what you actually have to do. You know, it's it's not it's not very complicated You've just you've got to make the savings and that's it Which of the four paths is the most certain? Well again, I would say that the savings route is the one that's most certain because it has the least entrepreneurial risk involved Having said that the issue with the savings route and you and I have talked about this before is that it's got a limited upside Because there are just limits to how much you're going to be able to save from a job and There are constraints that when you get into entrepreneurship and you build a business the potential upside You know, it's it's bigger and that reflects the fact that it's riskier, too so it the the the safest route because it's most under your control is to go for extreme saving in a job where you are Able to you know have a fairly steady career and you're just really focused on the things that you control which is getting your own Spending really really under control and and putting away as much as you can if you do that Then you can gradually slowly work your way towards financial independence, but you're not going to be Getting nearly as much potential upside for example as if you would do if you become a successful entrepreneur Yeah, I feel like I love having the four discrete categories because it's useful to It's useful for people to look at and see Oh there are multiple ways and the reason I ask you about the most certain and the easiest to start with is I think the hardest one to start with and I agree with you it's hard to say and in the string the hardest one to start is with is The idea of launching a startup because if you have the idea of launching a startup at least this is my personal experience Goal is I'm gonna launch a startup.

I'm gonna build a big business and I'm gonna sell it out for five million bucks Well, you're often looking at ideas and they've got to be big And so it's very frustrating when you're looking around saying what's that idea? What's that idea? What's the idea and Sometimes you don't have the idea.

Sometimes the idea comes later And so what I spent time doing and I wasted several years by not having the clarity of starting with extreme savings I wasted time constantly looking. What's that big idea and Now in retrospect what I think about your four Categories I almost see them as for as a numbered path to starting So the number one thing is extreme savings because if you have an income Then focus on saving as much of that income as is practical for your circumstance Now there will be people who will not pursue this because they say I'm just not willing to live that frugal lifestyle But many people are and especially many younger people so extreme savings gives you Multiple things most especially gives you cash which allows you to more easily make a transition to unjobbing if you would like It's a lot easier to go and move into transient employment If you've got you know, some several thousand dollars at the minimum in the bank So you can be a little bit more comfortable with the fact that okay sometime over the next few months I've got a I've got to get a job or I've got to get a temporary gig of some kind So extreme savings leads naturally into unjobbing unjobbing might lead naturally into your discovering and building a lifestyle business and Also extreme savings is the foundation for your lifestyle business gives you the ability to take the risk on starting a new business and then What might happen is your lifestyle business might have to transition into a startup something that could grow now Not all lifestyle businesses can scale but what I think can happen and I'll use you used right in the first of your paragraph on Lifestyle business use the example of Pat Flynn founder of smart passive income.

Yeah, so I think Pat started with this and his story I'm finding that the path that he's taking is kind of similar to where I'm at His story was he started smart passive income. He started to build a lifestyle business But at this point he could shut the whole thing down and live on live on savings But the lifestyle business has become a much bigger business and that's what I'm finding with radical personal finance at this time I could with my family sell all our stuff Take my cell phone and a little microphone and create my podcast all around the world and I could make enough for us to move Down and live with you in Panama City, but what I'm finding is I don't really want to do that anymore now I want to build something that's bigger that has a bigger impact and it's not so much the financial motivation It's more of about well, I guess I didn't want to actually quit Yeah, absolutely and I think I mean this is That's Pat is a great example and I used him as one of the examples for lifestyle business because that transition is very clear He was working for an architectural firm and he had a blog and he started to monetize that Well, actually he was made redundant from his architectural firm and he needed a job So cute how you Brit say that he was made redundant.

He was fired Very cute and politically correct I always I like that turn of phrase you guys use Yeah, so he say he had to get income and he was able to monetize this blog and that was able that's Really was something that a lot of people found helpful because it was a blog that was about Passing an exam that a lot of other people were working towards and so this blog was very helpful He was able to monetize it and then he had products spinning off it and as you say that Created this passive income lifestyle this lifestyle business and now he's clearly making a lot more Than he would need to to pick to carry on and in a way he's doing it because he just loves doing it And I think it's true Also that if you want to do a startup Then you have to think about the startup in terms of not this is going to be my ticket to financial independence But am I gonna find this a filling as something to do?

I mean the same goes for any lifestyle business really because you don't know whether or not you ever will have a business that Does successfully get to the point of being? Valuable enough to sell and even then whether or not you'll be able to successfully negotiate a sale and find find a buyer But it so it depends on what you're gonna find for filling in doing it as well And in the same with a lifestyle business You know it might be that it's much harder to make money in one particular Industry that you want to start your lifestyle business in and you don't necessarily know that it's gonna be a four-hour workweek You know most lifestyle businesses are not four-hour workweeks They are much more than that and it in a way that that has become a little bit of a myth sometimes It's not easy to to get a lifestyle to get a business providing you with that regular income on So little work per week so the question you have got to ask yourself is are you gonna?

Enjoy it anyway are you gonna find it fulfilling to have this business? Even if you're working a lot more than four hours a week And if you are then that's fine because you know you're not gonna You're not gonna lose doing the business because it's gonna be interesting to you anyway Pretend that I am reading your book, and I'm a 40 year old man or woman and I'm Middle income middle America, or I guess it could be middle Europe whatever middle middle class, and I'm sitting there saying well I got you know $20,000 in my 401k But beyond that I don't really have that much How do I sit down and analyze my situation to fit, but I really want to be financially independent How do I sit down and analyze my financial my my sit my?

My path to figure out which of these approaches is best for me Well, that's a really good question, and it's interesting that you start with a 40 year old because I think you know the easier case Is and the people who are gain gonna gain most from my book are people who are the 20 year olds?

Right because they have a lot more Ahead of them to choose freely as to which path they're going to take in different parts of their life And they may well find that there are some periods in your 20s where extreme saving makes a lot of sense because you don't have A lot of experience and then later on you can branch into other things with the 40 year old I think you have to look at where you're at and what you already have in terms of you know Your own human capital really I'll give you an example that I mentioned before the the friend of mine Who was a management consultant, and he was in his mid-30s when it got to the point where he had such good industry connections that he was able to go freelance and He was able to make good money and be there for the birth of his son and for the first couple of years of his son's life And you know be be much basically be like a stay-at-home dad and yet do a bit of work here and there So for that period of his life undropping was great.

You know it's a really good opportunity he was able to build on all of the Experience and industry contacts that he'd already gained by that time in his career It would have been totally different if he had zero contacts and no you know no chance So I think for that 40 year old you've got to ask yourself Well, what have you got and where you know?

What's realistic from where you can go from here because you can start extreme saving at any point in your life You know it's just it's actually down to you to decide to make the lifestyle changes to start doing the extreme saving if you do It really intensively then in 10 years you can get to the point of financial independence So that 40 year old you know even even though it's actually starting out later within 10 years They could potentially replicate the kind of pattern that people like Jacob Lung Fisker and Mr.

Money moustache and other people have done there are lots of people that age pursuing that approach But you could also say well as a 40 year old what have you got in terms of your? Insights into this industry that you work in what business could you start you know what what could be the opportunities?

And it depends where you're at in terms of things like your kids what other financial responsibilities you have you know you once you get? To that age you've got a lot you're a lot more locked in to the previous decisions that you've made So I hope that my book can be most helpful to people who have Two younger people who are thinking about their approaches, but I think at any age you can it's still possible To change your direction, and you can still make incredible changes within you know What is within a lifetime of relatively short amount of time?

so pretend you're counseling me again same scenario continuing on and I'm saying Jake I'm 40 years old and I was meeting with my financial advisor And I just doing a review of my 401k And I need to be saving more money in my 401k for retirement Because I'm gonna be 65 soon and my fear Jake is if I leave this job.

I'm gonna lose my 401k and Things are very very uncertain. What do I do about my retirement? Well, I mean this is again a really important question that each person has to decide their own approach to risk and to Rewards you know it for me. I started Entrepreneurship when I had nothing to lose I had no money Well actually I had some savings that I put into the business that I'd Accumulated through my work, but I didn't have any kids I didn't have a wife and I was able to just go for it And I knew that after five or five years or so if it hadn't worked out well Then I would just go and get a job and it wouldn't be such a big deal And I would have still have all of that runway ahead of me I think it really depends for the person who's 14 who's really worried about their retirement and If they're very risk averse then you know the least risky route is always going to be the extreme savings route Because that route is always going to be the route that you you you stay and take advantage of whatever career position that you have But it depends how important it is to you to be job free That's what my book is about is about being job free and about living outside of a job and having the freedom To to be your own boss to not have somebody else to answer to to decide for yourself How you want to live for some people that's really important And it's worth taking some risks for and so you have to you have to decide for yourself How risk averse you are and whether or not you've left things to a point where you really need to focus first on saving For a while before you do anything else.

So I would always say it's got to be an individual decision I was very focused on entrepreneurship and I was really willing to just go for it on the understanding that well I could just lose five years of my life on something that doesn't ultimately work out But I'll learn a huge amount in the process and that's that's fine.

I'm fine with that I didn't mind the risk of failure and I didn't mind the fact that you know That would then be I the end of five years a project that was just done Other people find that really really challenging and in some ways that fear of failure is actually what stops a lot of other people from from really trying I Have a show title on my list of shows to create haven't done it yet.

But the the title is Don't ask yourself the question of what will you do when you retire? ask yourself the question, what would you do if you could never retire and The idea is why don't we focus first on instead of talking about retiring comfortably? Why don't we talk about working comfortably?

Because the constant theme that I see is people who are financially independent Very few of them stop working and so this idea that you must be financially independent in order to make the transition is I think it's false and by having these different paths You can I guess feel more confident about some of the decisions and then that was where I was kind of bringing in another aspect is retirement There are multiple paths to financial freedom and then even in and of itself retirement is it doesn't have to be done even if you don't actually have to be financially free to Build a little more of a lifestyle of freedom and and sometimes you might even go backward I had a client of mine who taught me this lesson and I've got a The way he taught it to me was I came to do financial planning and I was working on his portfolio But his portfolio wasn't very big but what he was doing is he had shut down a fairly successful business and Transitioned into an employee role in the same industry and then he was planning and When I first met him and he later did it he was planning to transition from Working as the employee in this business to going back to college as a guy in his mid-40s Going back to college and then getting a job working as a teacher because he loved history and he wanted to teach he wanted to teach high school history and he wanted to choose choose teaching so that he would have time to travel and Because teaching was something that he wanted to do and he could do it for a very long period of time and so he was making this transition from Kind of the the ends the ideal the big business back to employee and then back to totally different job because the job would would create more of a lifestyle for him and When you see all the different paths It blows so many holes in the standard US American approach of work a job 40 years and retire at 65 That it's I wonder why anybody but once that path anymore Yeah, absolutely and that's why I Chose to focus on the concept of being job free rather than the concept of being financially independent because although financial independence is great It's not the only path to being job free and you can live a fulfilling wonderful life You know not being financially independent if you find ways of making ends meet That you know make you happy and that give you fulfillment because that ultimately that's the goal Financial freedom for me really is about not having to work in a job that you don't enjoy And if you don't have to work in a job that you that you don't like Then you have the freedom to do what you want with your time whether that is more Work that earns a lot of money or work that is fulfilling and doesn't earn so much money and in many ways you know it that's the key is that get breaking out of the paradigm of success being essentially Continually earning more and more until you get to the point where you're playing golf as a retiree because ultimately By that time first of all, you know, I don't like golf But by that time, you know You don't have the chance to really enjoy it because you've been stressed out All the way through your career trying to ultimately earn more and more money and I have seen that happen I've seen people get into that mindset where success is defined by how many toys you have and how much money you have and For me, you know when I sold my business I became a director in the international company that bought my business and I could have continued working there and earning a lot of Money and I could have built from that and gone on within the corporate world to you know a higher level corporate job and so forth, but I just didn't want to and I When I stopped working when I actually then at the end of the earn out period after I'd helped integrate my company you know, I stopped working to do things like travel and write books and do podcasts and These all of these things Involved me taking a massive cut in income that I could have had if I'd stayed in that corporate world But I didn't need it because that that money Wasn't ultimately gonna be nearly as fulfilling to me as the lifestyle of traveling the world with my wife Seeing all of the amazing beautiful things that there are to see, you know expressing my thoughts and hopefully being able to help other people through my books find freedom in their own way and these are the things that Bring meaning to my life.

So why should I continue earning more? You know when I I have enough to do whatever I want Tell us the story of your friend Peter and what you learned by interacting with him and observing his life well Peter's story is one that I tell it in the book and and I found that a lot of people have really connected to it because Probably because I wanted to explain that I I did have a mentor when I was growing up I I met someone when I was a teenager.

I was really trying to understand politics I was asking my parents lots of questions that they weren't able to understand They weren't able to answer and my mother suggested that I speak to this guy called Peter who'd previously been active in the same political group as her and I went to talk to him and and he would had become totally disillusioned with politics and he was Building a business.

He was an entrepreneur and we became good friends And I asked him what his goals in life were After after knowing him for a bit and he was very clear and explicit with me that he planned to build a business get to the point of being a millionaire and then retire and Just do whatever he wanted which probably wouldn't be very much more than just reading interesting books and and you know having philosophical Conversations these are the kinds of things that he ultimately wanted to do I found that such an incredible thing to hear at that age because This was somebody who clearly planned to be a success in his chosen field and then he was just gonna quit and be a successful dropout and I'd not heard anyone talk about that and and the other thing that really impressed me was that This wasn't just a dream that you wanted to be a millionaire he was seriously planning it and he was absolutely going for it and Everything that he was doing with building his own business was leaning towards this goal and he was serious about implementing it you know, this wasn't just idle talk and that also made a huge impression on me because I I From took from that that you know, it's okay to take this seriously and to believe in doing it And not just to treat it like oh, wouldn't it be nice one day, you know And so that made a huge impression on me and in many ways Slowly it took time for it all to sort of sink in and I spent a lot of time in university I did postgraduate studies and eventually I did it even did a PhD But when I left university, I started my own business and I very much was following in his path he was an inspiration to me and I was following in this idea to that I could live a life free of jobs I could build my own business work for myself and then I could also at some point just Retire early or do whatever I want with my time What was interesting to me?

So that was my mentor and in many ways by writing this book I'm hoping that other people can can see Lots of stories of people who've done this and this is one of the things about the book is to present not just Peter's story But different stories from other people who have interviewed of who've done this in their own way But an interesting thing happened with Peter which is that later on?

After I'd been working very hard and building my own business. I finally managed to meet up with Peter again I hadn't seen him for a long time because I'd borrowed money from him to start my business. He'd been incredibly supportive and What I found when I met up with him again is that he was now a multi-millionaire He'd blown way past his original dream of becoming a millionaire.

He was still making more and more money he was incredibly successful living in a mansion and he was incredibly unhappy and You know what happens that he had his goals had changed and he became more and more interested in the sort of more like outward shows of success Having the luxury car having the mansion Having lots and lots of women that he was seeing and lots of lots of women who were interested in him He gave up on love and he just wanted to you know, basically sleep with lots of beautiful women Which he was able to do because there were always lots of people who are interested in someone who's obviously very rich and successful like that, but what I saw was that he was unhappy and that his life, you know was not fulfilling to him and That made a huge impression on me too because I never gave up on his original dream Which it was always a big inspiration to me and I think it's really important to ask yourself How much is enough and what you really want?

Do you want money or do you want freedom? And for me, it was always freedom and money is just a means to achieve more freedom in life and so, you know, I Had a mentor who was a great inspiration to me and who also was an inspiration again in a way because he changed course and our Lives went in the end went in different parts, but I still learned a huge amount from it I'd like to ask you a philosophical question you You're writing these this book and and Exploring these concepts which are expressing the fact that money as a goal in and of itself is rarely fulfilling Rather it's a tool and then you've described the story of you walking away from it but philosophically I believe that Although you write in the book that at 13 years old you were trying to become a Marxist at this point I would say that philosophically you see the value of a capitalist economy and I'm curious.

How do you integrate this these seemingly? opposing Philosophies the one idea being in capitalism by pursuing our own economic self-interest and by building our fortunes We are we're motivated by that. That's commonly how it's perceived with the other being well if we build our happiness and Do that than that then we've got enough.

How do you integrate these two seemingly opposing philosophies? Well, you know, I think so yeah, you're right just just to explain I the reason I originally wanted to Ask Peter lots of questions was that I was trying to understand socialism My parents were socialist and I wanted to be one too and I was reading Karl Marx's Das Kapital and trying to make sense of it and Peter was actually someone who was incredibly well read and and so and had previously been Interested a Marxist and been interested in all this stuff and it was through our conversations that I realized that none of that stuff made Any sense not only was it logically flawed but also incredibly destructive ideology and Peter recognized that too Which is something that I really admired But see he had the integrity When we talked about it under questioning to to acknowledge the faults in the arguments and to acknowledge how destructive they were But I also think that that does not mean that You know Entrepreneurship is all about Grabbing as much as you can and that you know, the one with the most toys wins So to speak what I see it as is it's the opportunity to live freely Which it means that you choose for yourself what is important in terms of what you consume, you know, if you want to consume Luxury goods if that's what makes you happy do it.

I don't think there's anything evil or wrong with that Personally, I just don't think it's a very wise choice given it the cost benefits for myself It doesn't make any sense. You know, I I have never owned a car and I don't miss it and Up until the time when I was financially independent.

I never owned any property I only stayed in a small rented apartment and I eventually bought a place once I once I'd sold my business But I didn't miss it. It wasn't important to me. And so what I see is as really what's so exciting about entrepreneurship and about the ability to Be an entrepreneur on the market and provide value to others is you can choose at what level you find Fulfillment if you find fulfillment having a tiny Lifestyle business that brings you just enough income to live in a low-cost place like Mexico or somewhere else And you know and you're having a great time Good for you.

I think that's a wonderful way to live if you want to build You know the next billion dollar business and that's what you think is gonna be super exciting Then fine good for you, too I think it's it's a question of your choice and your freedom and nobody It's not a question of you know on the one hand everyone has to We have to collectivize everything and and and you know Nobody should have anything more than anyone else on the other hand somehow a free market approach is more that oh You just everyone's got to grab as much as they possibly can I think in in the in the?

the freedom that matters to me is the freedom to choose for yourself and for everyone to have the choice of the Lifestyle that makes most sense to them and I think money is an incredibly valuable tool But not the end in itself. And so that that's sort of how I see that philosophical difference yeah, I think that's a good point and and That's where the distinction Where when you get into political philosophy and political ideology?

Many times I've seen that the wealthiest people tend to be extremely generous and what is frustrating to people who especially who are wealthy is That it's it's it's when it's their choice to be generous taxation is not charity taxation is Staffed at the end of a gun and so regardless of whether it's taxation to support the president's White House in the United States or Whatever the equivalent is in the UK or whether it's taxation to support the global war machine or whether it's taxation to give to the poor person down the street The reason doesn't matter.

It wasn't a voluntary choice. So that's very different than generosity and charity Which many many people find at least many people wealth people who I've worked with they find a deep sense of meaning and purpose behind that so often people just see those political ideologies or those philosophies as The whole idea of capitalism is to get as much money as you can.

Well, that's that's not true It's it's the freedom of choice as you describe go ahead. Yeah, not only that but also the thing that's really exciting to me Is that being an entrepreneur and you know, most of these job free lifestyles have some element of entrepreneurship in them You know that is about providing value.

That's how the world gets better that these are positive Non-political things that you can do to make a real impact on the world Not only is it great to achieve as much freedom as you can in your own life to find fulfillment But I see true entrepreneurship the kind where you you know You're a genuine entrepreneur providing value to others as how the world gets better That is how we have all of the great benefits of all of the innovation and you know Amazing things that the power our lifestyle today is through entrepreneurs it's entrepreneurs that brought those things to the world because Everything through entrepreneurship is voluntary and one of the great benefits to me of living a job-free lifestyle Is that you get to choose according to your own ethics?

How you make money and what you think is the right way to live? Derek Sivers makes this point in his book about his business that when you start your own business You're creating your own little utopia. It's up to you to decide how people should be treated You know what you consider to be decent and the right way to live and you you can do it You can choose to do good in your own way by providing value voluntarily And you don't have to you know put up with any nonsense from an employer who may have a vision That's different to yours who you may think they don't have as much integrity as you if you have any If there's any question of the integrity of the business It's down to you and it's your responsibility to do that and that's both a challenge and a wonderful opportunity.

Yeah, that's You've said it well and that's what's so frustrating to me about most modern political conversation is What has happened in our modern era is we've come to the point where? People often say well the way that we make change is I force my desired change on everyone else and then everything will be fine Instead of people saying I'm just gonna go make change.

That's why I one of the reasons why I love entrepreneurship There's a famous story forget the guy's name in this business, but there was the guy who? CEO of a company up in the Northwest Pacific Northwest in the United States who? Cut his salary his his very high salary and cut his salary down to seventy five thousand dollars Increased all of us employees wages massively and he had all the all the news Great, you know all the these laudatory news Stories about how wonderful the CEO was for this decision and I fully supported his actions but what made me so frustrated and watching the scenarios like that was that Everyone automatically wanted to use that as a Reason to employ violence against everyone else or the threat of violence and say well, that's why you should do that So instead of saying hey, let this guy lead by example and good for him.

It's his money. He made the choice It's automatically well, we've got a cap all the other CEOs pays. We got a cap everyone else We've got to automatically take our perspective and up and and force it on to everyone else and it's a major It's a major problem in the modern society that we automatically Think of using force and saying I'm gonna force everyone else to do what I think is right instead of simply saying I'm just gonna go do it.

I'm gonna show you how I do it I'm gonna run my business the way that I want to run it And if you want to see change you go run your business the way that you want to run it Yeah, I think anytime you see a problem in the world The the most productive question you can ask is how could I?

create a venture that would voluntarily Help this problem be solved and you know, if if you're if you're right, then you've seen entrepreneurial Opportunity if you see that there's a pain point in the way that people live and that it could be made better You know, you could save people time.

You could save people Heartache you could save people whatever it is. Then there's an entrepreneurial opportunity there and the really the the way with real Integrity to try and help is to actually do it voluntarily which which ultimately means start your own business and and help people And if you do help people they'll pay for it and it will fund the business and it will you know Fund the whole venture forward in terms of making an impact on the world.

This is in fact For me the most fulfilling aspect of entrepreneurship, you know, the financial independence is wonderful But I suggest that whether it's a lifestyle business or a startup I think if you do it because you are excited about making a difference You know and in your case Joshua You are obviously excited about helping people achieve a better control of their finances and more financial freedom Then the money is great.

But every day that you do this you're really living your purpose Which is a wonderful way to live. Yeah, Jake as you were writing and researching and now finishing the publication of this book What was probably the biggest? Change in your mindset What was the thing that stood out to you as you were going through and editing and editing and editing where you said wow I didn't quite see that before I started this project, but now I really I really see this point.

I think what changed for me is that I Through doing this research, you know I I started from a position of being an entrepreneur and I very much was in the start up route and I saw Or that as I mentioned before my mentor The person I looked up to had taken this route I saw that as freedom and what I realized the more people I interviewed on my podcast of voluntary life and Found that the more I found that there were other people who would achieve their own sense of freedom and their own job-free lifestyle In different ways the more I realized that you know, this is not it's not just my way There are other ways to do this and the more I realized also how often there isn't that much overlap between these different communities of people who have found ways to live job free I think your podcast is an interesting one because you speak about all of these different approaches with different people But often you know, there's there is not that much overlap for example between start-up entrepreneurs and extreme savers I think in many ways those two communities don't really know each other and they don't I don't think that the extreme savers have much Of an insight as to what it is like to be a start-up entrepreneur And I don't think the start-up entrepreneurs have much of an insight as to what it is like to be an extreme saver And yet in many ways I think they share many similar values and many opportunities to learn from each other and I certainly found that I learned a huge amount by looking at these other approaches and Seeing you know the the the ways that you can find freedom and so now I like to to pick and choose and take from all of these approaches the things that are meaningful to me and Philosophically I can learn a huge amount from all of them But that's what happened to me through doing the research for the book Was it really opened my mind to the different options that are out there?

I Love the book. I'll just as a Absolute endorsement here. Oh Jake sent me an advance review copy and I sent him back a little blurb for his publicity And i'll just read my blurb. Here's what I sent him. I said this book is a required introductory text for anyone who is interested in achieving financial independence You will save years of misdirected work If you begin with a clear plan and jake's book provides the outlined plan that you need the book is really really good It's very concise The estimated length on amazon is 96 pages The price is great right now on amazon.

I'll put a direct link to the book through it radical personal finance.com slash job free So radical personal finance.com slash job free or i'll put that link in the the notes and blog post for today's post But it's it's 3.99 on kindle right now, and it's also part of the kindle unlimited package So if you are a subscriber to kindle unlimited, uh, get over to job free and check the book out.

I'd love to see The book, uh really grow and rise in popularity because I think you've written something that's incredibly useful Uh, jake and again, it's it's for anyone who's interested in financial independence Take a I don't know. What do you think it takes an hour to read hour and a half?

I mean, it's not it's 100 pages. So um Take yeah, you can read it. You can read it in in an afternoon if you if you want if you're interested I've had people who've told me that actually that they just read it in one sitting because they were really interested Yeah, you can and it's it's just so clear to provide those outlines because it provides The choice that that people need And exactly the point that that you've said throughout this interview many times people say well this path is the right one and and and and they don't recognize that There are many paths and so for some people extreme savings.

That's all they need some people unjobbing is all they need I've gone through the transition. I started with the goal of creating lifestyle business um now i'm Moving on to kind of the startup world And and you can pursue all of them, but but the key is by having them identified in your mind.

You will be empowered uh with The ability to look at your own situation and judge what's best for you. So jake I thank you for writing the book Uh, thank you for coming on the show. Uh also mentioned. Let's see. You've got the podcast. Is it the voluntary life.com?

I think you would the yes. Okay. So the voluntary life.com podcast the voluntary life podcast Um, and if you're interested in in a really great Insight into somebody who's living the financially independent lifestyle, uh, check out jake's podcast as well Thank you so much. Joshua. It's been really fun talking to you Your homework now is to take the information in today's show and to think about your different options Expect those options to change When I started I had done a little bit of savings but not extreme savings and I was primarily focusing on building the lifestyle business Now that i've built the lifestyle business and that's starting to to function now I'm looking at saying well, am I really creating a startup or am I just building a bigger business?

I don't know But if you think about these different options I believe you can use all of them at different points in your life depending on where you are and having them Firmly in mind will help you You know unjobbing you want to go travel the world don't have a lot of money figure out an unjobbing gig that you can do so I hope you can gain inspiration from the different stories and the different strategies And then you can design whichever one of these strategies is the best for you I strongly urge you to go and check out jake's book.

It's well worth the money From the time I recorded the interview today. I was trying to figure out whether the cost has changed I'll link on the show notes and blog post for today's show through to the book on amazon Uh, that'll be an affiliate link So if you use that I get a commission for selling you the book.

Thank you for that, by the way Uh, but it just check the check the current price, but it's well worth reading this is this book is officially on my list of Must read books when building out a plan for for financial independence because it'll save you a lot of time It'll save you possibly years.

I know I would have been saved years if I had read this book in the beginning So if you have any interest at all in financial freedom financial independence Make sure to read the book and save yourself some serious time check out. Uh, jake's all of jake's information his podcast his website Jake does a really good job.

His show is not very commercial. His website is not very commercial He already made some money. I'm sure he makes money on a few things here and there but he's writing these books He's traveling the world. He's really he puts his money where his mouth is and in the world of internet marketing I find that refreshing i'd rather listen to guys like jake than the latest guru to sell you Sell you the latest greatest system So check out all this information at thevoluntarylife.com If this show has been valuable to you i'd appreciate your support on patreon You can find all the details of that at radicalpersonalfinance.com/patron Thank you to the new patrons who have signed up in the last few days.

I appreciate your supporting me Radicalpersonalfinance.com/patron for all that information and I will be back with you soon Hey there treasure hunters and bargain seekers, are you on the lookout for a local thrift store that has it all look no further Pix exchange is your thrifting paradise right here in the heart of torrents Pix exchange offers a wide variety of new and used clothing shoes new scrubs Uniforms new and used furniture all at low prices Don't miss out on the ultimate thrifting experience at our pix exchange parking lot anniversary sale at our torrents location Visit pix exchange hhh.org for more details