RPF0214-Jay_Fleischman

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00:00:13.840 | Holiday today. I bring a lot of different types of content to you here on the show and

00:00:18.320 | Some days it's fun and it's light and some days it's technical

00:00:21.780 | but

00:00:23.840 | Very rarely do I succeed in bringing together?

00:00:26.960 | Really awesome technical content presented in a really fun and interesting format. But today

00:00:31.280 | today radicals

00:00:34.240 | I'm pretty excited. I think i've succeeded

00:00:36.560 | If you have student loans, or if you have anybody with student loans, or excuse me, you know anybody with student loans

00:00:43.440 | Make sure that before you make any changes or do anything with those student loans you first listen to today's show

00:00:51.840 | *Music*

00:00:53.840 | Welcome to the radical personal finance podcast, my name is joshua sheets and i'm your host. Thank you for listening

00:01:13.040 | I appreciate your being here today. I've got an education for you. You already got the schooling

00:01:17.600 | Now let's have an education on student loans

00:01:20.880 | I get excited when I get to learn something and I learned a bunch

00:01:25.680 | During the course of conducting today's interview. My guest is jay fleishman. He's an expert on student loans. You're gonna love this

00:01:33.920 | It's a real treat to be able to talk with somebody who's an expert and who can just give you great ideas

00:01:45.280 | wrapped up in really actionable

00:01:48.320 | In a really actionable way and today's interview is really going to be a treat for you

00:01:51.840 | I think you're really going to enjoy it. You're going to want to grab a pen and paper and this is a show

00:01:54.640 | You're going to want to listen to uh more than once if you

00:01:57.600 | Have student loans, especially I know that I personally

00:02:01.600 | Am have list i'm going to listen to this show

00:02:04.720 | A couple of times to make sure that i've fully grasped the information even though I conducted the actual interview

00:02:10.400 | But my guest is a man named jay fleishman

00:02:12.320 | Jay is an attorney as you'll hear in just a moment and also he hosts a podcast called the student loan show

00:02:18.160 | And he reached out to me and offered to come on the show

00:02:20.080 | He's a listener of the show and and i'm so glad that I had him on was a great interview

00:02:24.240 | Grab a pen grab a piece of paper get ready to take notes and

00:02:27.840 | Enjoy learning about some radical strategies that you can use to help you with your student loan

00:02:35.040 | Jay welcome to the radical personal finance podcast. I appreciate you being with me today. Thanks for having me joshua

00:02:41.760 | It's nice to have a subject matter expert on the show and I hope to dig a little bit into

00:02:48.320 | Issues surrounding student loans, but i'd like to start with just an introduction

00:02:52.100 | Would you be willing to share a little bit about your background and history?

00:02:55.600 | And specifically as it relates to your involvement with the topic of student loans

00:02:59.200 | Sure, I have been a consumer protection attorney since the end of 1995

00:03:05.220 | uh primarily

00:03:08.140 | focusing on the field of consumer bankruptcy protection, so that was really where I I

00:03:13.920 | tell people I grew up as a bankruptcy lawyer and

00:03:17.760 | I I

00:03:20.720 | Did only bankruptcy work for a very very long time and then about four years ago

00:03:26.560 | I finally had it up to here with

00:03:28.800 | Not knowing what to tell my clients who had student loan problems because for the most part student loans cannot

00:03:35.200 | Be resolved through a bankruptcy proceeding and at that point I became

00:03:42.540 | uh acquainted with

00:03:44.200 | Another attorney by the name of joshua cohen who is a student loan attorney

00:03:48.880 | And he practices out of vermont. He was in connecticut at the time and

00:03:54.560 | I sat down and had lunch with him one day and he agreed to spill his secrets to me and I agreed to

00:04:01.360 | Do my best work, uh for for people who had student loan problems and ever since then really i've been

00:04:08.880 | doing

00:04:10.720 | Pretty much entirely student loan resolution

00:04:13.300 | Uh federal student loans as well as private student loans on behalf of of ordinary borrowers. So you have a national practice then

00:04:21.040 | Working across the country or specific to one location. I I handle federal student loan resolution

00:04:27.940 | nationwide

00:04:30.000 | Private student loan resolution. I only handle in new york and california because those are

00:04:37.120 | Those loans are primarily going to deal with state-based questions and those are the only two states where i'm admitted to practice law

00:04:44.320 | so

00:04:45.840 | Let's start with the differences between private and federal student loans pretend that i'm interested in going to college and i've decided i'm going to borrow

00:04:53.920 | Some loans to pay for my college tuition bills and i've got offers for private loans

00:05:00.640 | And i've got offers for federal loans

00:05:03.040 | How would I start to approach that process and what should I be aware of on the back end?

00:05:08.160 | Especially as a prudent consumer a prudent borrower knowing knowing that there's always a risk that I might have some trouble

00:05:14.960 | Paying these things off on their pre-agreed upon terms

00:05:18.480 | Well federal student loans can only be taken out directly from the u.s

00:05:24.400 | Department of education and that's been the case for the past six years

00:05:29.120 | In order to be able to get federal student loans. You need to file your fafsa

00:05:34.420 | Fsa, uh anybody who's gone through

00:05:38.640 | Undergraduate or graduate school has gone through that process. It's an online form it

00:05:44.560 | Enables the government to determine your eligibility for federal financial aid

00:05:49.840 | uh from there

00:05:52.400 | Um, that's that's really the entry point for it

00:05:56.800 | Um federal student loans are always going to be fixed rate

00:06:01.360 | They are always going to be at rates that are mandated

00:06:05.300 | every year

00:06:08.240 | By the federal government so that your federal student loan that you take out for fall semester of 2015

00:06:14.340 | Is the same federal student loan that i'm going to take out for fall semester of 2015

00:06:20.580 | Same rate same term same repayment options

00:06:23.680 | um

00:06:25.520 | That's always going to be

00:06:27.520 | the first

00:06:29.120 | Money that you want to take if you're taking student loans the reason for that is

00:06:35.200 | First of all, they're fixed rate as I said

00:06:37.840 | Second of all federal student loans are not credit based

00:06:42.480 | So if you take out a loan for your own education, there is no credit check

00:06:48.720 | It doesn't matter if you've got good credit or bad credit

00:06:52.160 | You're still going to get the same loan and you're still going to get the same rate

00:06:55.920 | in addition federal student loans

00:06:58.720 | Come with a variety of repayment options

00:07:02.240 | Um, you've got your standard repayment. That's 10 years. You've got your extended repayment

00:07:07.680 | You've got your extended graduated repayment. You've got income-based repayment options. You've got deferment

00:07:13.140 | You've got forbearance options. You've got a whole host of different ways that you can structure

00:07:19.220 | your repayment

00:07:22.640 | Private student loans are no different than any other private bank loan

00:07:27.920 | You go in you negotiate a rate with your bank. Most of them are going to come with variable interest rates

00:07:35.520 | Most of them are going to require co-signers because they are all going to be credit based

00:07:42.240 | In addition, there are no repayment options

00:07:46.400 | in other words if it's

00:07:49.420 | A $25,000 loan that you're going to have to pay off within 10 years

00:07:53.740 | That's what you've got. Those are the terms of your loan just like any other bank loan

00:07:59.740 | You don't have any income-based repayment options. You don't have any debt forgiveness options loan discharge options

00:08:06.460 | um

00:08:08.120 | Disability options you've you've got no protections

00:08:11.360 | um

00:08:13.980 | That are outside what you would normally have in any other bank loan

00:08:18.300 | With regard to the private loans are do those face the same?

00:08:22.780 | Lack of ability to discharge in a bankruptcy proceeding as the federal loans do yes, they do and that's really

00:08:31.420 | That's really the sticking point

00:08:34.060 | um federal student loans because they there are so many repayment options the fact that you can't

00:08:40.760 | Discharge them in a bankruptcy proceeding for the most part there

00:08:44.920 | There are circumstances where you can discharge a student loan in bankruptcy, but for the most part

00:08:49.720 | They're going to survive

00:08:52.120 | um, the fact that the federal student loans are going to survive bankruptcy

00:08:56.380 | is not

00:08:58.920 | As big of a problem given the fact that the federal government offers so many repayment options

00:09:05.720 | private student loans

00:09:07.800 | No repayment options. No real ability to discharge those student loans. You're you're getting the worst of both worlds

00:09:15.240 | What's the fact pattern that seems to emerge if you were going to look across your client base in the cases that you handle?

00:09:21.880 | What would you say is probably the most common scenario that you wind up with where somebody has a lot of student loans?

00:09:28.440 | And now they're facing

00:09:29.720 | A litigation event and really struggling what happened in those those cases?

00:09:37.160 | What you're dealing with in large measure is

00:09:40.120 | people who took out

00:09:43.000 | The maximum amount that they were allowed to take

00:09:46.760 | in the hopes that they're

00:09:49.800 | That their employment was going to be okay that they were going to graduate from school

00:09:55.080 | They were going to get their degree or their certification

00:09:57.660 | They were going to get a job that was going to pay them enough to repay the student loans

00:10:03.380 | Reality is that that's not the case. That's not the economy that we live in and an undergraduate education

00:10:10.280 | Doesn't guarantee you

00:10:13.060 | Doesn't guarantee you anything anymore

00:10:15.540 | Do you find then that many of your clients are just kind of what i'll call

00:10:20.180 | Stereotypical undergraduate graduates they went to school went to college. They spent I don't know

00:10:25.860 | $15,000 a year and they got $60,000 student loans and graduated with a traditional bachelor's degree

00:10:30.660 | Or do you find that you're dealing with clients who?

00:10:33.300 | Decided to go to law school and quit after year two or decided to go to dentistry school and quit

00:10:37.460 | part way through

00:10:39.460 | No, no for the most part. It is folks who have gone through an undergraduate education

00:10:44.360 | Come out the other end with the expectation that they'd be able to get a job and that that job was going to pay them enough

00:10:51.060 | To not only provide for a living wage, but also provide for the ability to repay that student loan debt

00:10:59.300 | Very very infrequently. Have I seen somebody who has begun?

00:11:04.020 | a graduate degree and

00:11:06.980 | For one reason or another hasn't been able to to complete it

00:11:10.180 | it's pretty heartbreaking because when you go back and look I think it seems to be different, but

00:11:15.700 | You start researching a little bit. I'll just call it the student loan scandal. I've read a few

00:11:21.540 | I've read a few pieces on it

00:11:24.100 | There's some pretty shady stuff that's happened in the dishing out of these loans and i'm not ready to

00:11:29.460 | Build a legal case at the moment, but there's at least enough shady stuff that i've read about and it's heartbreaking because

00:11:35.620 | I've sat there as a financial planner. I haven't sat there as a bankruptcy attorney

00:11:40.100 | But i've sat there as a financial planner kind of looking at the balance sheet and here i've faced a husband and wife and one of

00:11:46.820 | them has

00:11:48.420 | My experience sixty thousand dollars for a soft kind of fuzzy undergraduate degree and

00:11:54.020 | You know communications or counseling or something and I work in making thirty five thousand dollars a year and that

00:12:00.500 | That bachelor's degree

00:12:04.020 | I'm all for being a well-educated well-rounded person

00:12:06.900 | But speaking on financial terms that bachelor's degree had no impact on their life whatsoever

00:12:12.520 | And they wandered in foolishly to this situation. It's a heartbreaking

00:12:17.800 | scenario to be in well sure and

00:12:21.540 | I mean think back to when you were 18 years old and going to college. I was

00:12:24.900 | Well, no you were 18

00:12:28.260 | And there we go. That's nice

00:12:30.340 | You were just a normal 18 year old and your parents probably said you've got to go to college because that's what you do

00:12:37.060 | Because you're gonna have a better life. You're gonna make more money and the world's gonna be far better for you. So

00:12:42.420 | your parents

00:12:44.980 | Inadvertently

00:12:46.900 | Had drunk the kool-aid you drank the kool-aid you came out on the other end of it thinking a degree itself

00:12:54.660 | Was going to be your ticket to a better financial situation

00:12:59.080 | not

00:13:00.880 | Necessarily making a determination in advance of what that degree was going to be, you know, I went into

00:13:07.300 | I went into college in 1987

00:13:10.100 | And I went into college and on day one. I declared a major

00:13:16.340 | I was an economics major from day one

00:13:19.140 | Just a few weeks after that was when the market crashed and I was still an economics major and that's what I was going to be

00:13:28.580 | And nobody told me that

00:13:34.100 | You need to make sure that the major that you're going to choose

00:13:40.500 | Is going to be something that's got a financial

00:13:46.240 | Trajectory or a career trajectory that's going to take you where you where you need to be

00:13:52.160 | Because if you're going to be a communications major an english literature major or a history major

00:13:59.260 | Unless you've got a plan to go to grad school of some sort

00:14:04.140 | That's not really a marketable

00:14:07.820 | Set of skills that you're going to walk out with right. You're just not um

00:14:13.100 | And a lot of what's happened in the student loan market you talk about the student loan scam a lot of this happened

00:14:19.740 | because of the changes in the bankruptcy code in

00:14:23.580 | 2005 up until 2005 you were able to discharge

00:14:27.900 | private student loans

00:14:30.540 | Just like any other debt any credit card or personal loan or what have you?

00:14:35.420 | in october of 2005 october 17

00:14:40.120 | 2005 was when the bankruptcy law was changed and

00:14:43.400 | It was amended to roll private student loans in the same way that federal student loans were rolled in now at the same time

00:14:52.640 | You had the mortgage market was was still going full swing right I mean everybody was still buying houses

00:15:00.040 | But what was happening was the mortgage market was in such a state that

00:15:05.640 | most if not all of the prime

00:15:10.040 | lending candidates

00:15:12.040 | had already

00:15:14.200 | had already entered the mortgage market and

00:15:16.840 | Because the mortgages were all securitized

00:15:19.840 | The investors were starting to dig deeper and deeper and deeper into the subprime

00:15:25.840 | Arena to be able to get more people into the system to be able to create

00:15:31.280 | more of these securitized trusts to be able to get a

00:15:34.960 | continued rate of return

00:15:38.160 | When that started running out the Wall Street?

00:15:41.920 | financial institutions

00:15:44.480 | realized that they could

00:15:46.480 | securitize private student loans the exact same way that they securitized mortgages and

00:15:54.320 | Like mortgages there was very little risk of downside in

00:16:00.040 | the mortgage market the thinking was

00:16:04.040 | There's very little risk of downside because what's the worst that can happen we get the house back

00:16:09.200 | That's the worst that can happen and if the value of the house goes down a little bit fine

00:16:14.120 | We take a short we take a small loss

00:16:16.600 | But we're never gonna lose our shirt that that was the thinking behind

00:16:21.160 | Behind the way that the risk was put together

00:16:23.840 | For student loans it was very similar. What's the risk of loss in a private student loan?

00:16:30.440 | Well, they don't pay and then we sue and then we get a judgment

00:16:33.880 | And we get a garnishment there we freeze bank accounts or we put liens on real property

00:16:39.200 | But they can't go into bankruptcy and discharge the obligation so we've got a very small amount of downside

00:16:46.880 | That's really when the private student loan market took off

00:16:51.240 | because all of the financial institutions were able to securitize those student loans and

00:17:00.400 | Be able to create additional investment vehicles for people who are hungry for them

00:17:06.040 | So suddenly you had this limitless market now when you've got a limitless market for money

00:17:13.080 | Then you turn over and you look at

00:17:15.680 | the

00:17:17.920 | You look at higher education you look at the standard

00:17:21.260 | Colleges and universities, but you also look at the for-profit

00:17:29.040 | market the the ITT's the Corinthians the

00:17:33.000 | the Phoenix all of those folks and

00:17:35.800 | They sit down and they realize well, wait a minute we can increase

00:17:40.720 | Our tuition to any amount of money that we want

00:17:45.360 | Because we know that a student walking in can always get a private student loan

00:17:53.880 | we know that we can part of the sales package is

00:17:58.640 | You don't have to worry about any of the money

00:18:00.800 | All you have to do is take out a loan and you'll pay it back later when you're making all this money after your graduation

00:18:07.320 | So they start increasing

00:18:09.680 | their tuition to

00:18:12.680 | Ridiculous numbers that's that's when you start seeing this hockey stick of the increase in tuition

00:18:20.400 | So one feeds the other that's the great student loan scam and everybody was complicit in it

00:18:27.040 | Do

00:18:29.040 | you

00:18:30.480 | Have do you have an opinion on the involvement?

00:18:33.120 | As far as different people's the involvement in influence over getting that law changed

00:18:39.240 | Yeah, I've got a tremendous

00:18:43.520 | I'm kind of opening you up kind of just I'm just interested in hearing you talk about it because it really

00:18:48.720 | Frustrates me from that perspective, but I'm interested in your perspective on the actual political and legal maneuverings

00:18:55.200 | that resulted in that. Oh my god. Well, the the political maneuverings had been going on for years

00:19:02.000 | They've been trying to get the bankruptcy code changed for years. I started practicing I

00:19:08.920 | started practicing bankruptcy

00:19:11.720 | In December of 1995 and the code had just been changed in 94

00:19:15.920 | So I believe that the most that I

00:19:23.440 | Believe that the political landscape started shifting in

00:19:26.720 | 1998 that was when they started trying to get the law changed so it took them from 98 to

00:19:33.300 | 2005

00:19:35.240 | To get this thing changed

00:19:37.240 | It was there was an enormous amount of money behind it

00:19:42.480 | financial interests were

00:19:45.160 | Tremendous pressure was

00:19:47.160 | enormous

00:19:48.920 | I'm very active in the National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys. So I was watching a lot of

00:19:55.480 | the the lobbying efforts that NACPA was undertaking to

00:20:01.200 | to bring to light the stories of the consumer because

00:20:06.840 | the banner that the that the banking

00:20:10.280 | that the financial institutions were waving was

00:20:15.520 | there there are very few people who are

00:20:19.080 | honestly going into bankruptcy and the bankruptcy system is

00:20:24.360 | rife with abuse

00:20:27.200 | That's that's what they said. That's what they said it was

00:20:31.840 | People who file for bankruptcy are dishonest. They're trying to pull one over on the system. They're deadbeats

00:20:39.720 | They're dragging down the rest of the economy. We need to be able to curtail their ability

00:20:45.520 | to seek the protection of the bankruptcy court court that was that was what they came out with and

00:20:51.360 | It president Clinton fought against it and and he his administration was was

00:21:00.160 | tremendous

00:21:02.000 | for the consumer

00:21:04.000 | and then later administrations and you know, the winds changed

00:21:09.680 | And ultimately they were able to get it passed. Now. The thing is with respect to student loans

00:21:15.840 | Nobody was watching that provision

00:21:21.160 | except for the consumer bankruptcy attorneys

00:21:25.080 | We were the only ones who were watching that specific provision

00:21:30.720 | section 523 a 8 of the US Bankruptcy Code

00:21:35.480 | we were the only ones that were talking about the change were the only ones that were watching the change and

00:21:41.800 | Nobody else was paying attention to it. The press didn't talk about it. It was impossible to get a story in

00:21:50.520 | because it didn't fit with the story of

00:21:55.520 | dishonest people filing for bankruptcy

00:21:58.120 | because that would have changed the story to

00:22:00.520 | Poor students who just want a better life and look at the short end of the stick that they're getting.

00:22:06.400 | I think this is an issue that I was dead wrong on in the past when I was younger I

00:22:11.680 | very much had the perspective of

00:22:14.960 | you know, I very much had the perspective of the story of people are abusing the bankruptcy code and

00:22:21.320 | I don't remember the specific influences of that, but I very strongly had that

00:22:27.400 | that perspective and I remember I think I remember even when that law changed in in '05

00:22:34.600 | Kind of being very much in the pro. Yeah, finally, you know somebody cracking down on this bankruptcy

00:22:40.600 | This on all these these these these people these unethical people who are out declaring bankruptcy

00:22:47.040 | I had that impression

00:22:49.040 | I think I was flat out wrong on that and I've learned over the last 10 years

00:22:53.760 | My experience has been I'm sure you know as a financial plan with limited exposure

00:22:58.520 | I'm sure that there have been a few I'm sure there are some people who abuse the bankruptcy system

00:23:03.680 | But my experience has been most of the people that I've done financial counseling with who have been in that situation

00:23:09.080 | Hasn't been through abuse. It may have been through foolish decisions

00:23:13.640 | Oftentimes it was due through I mean and I'd love for you to comment on the primary reasons

00:23:18.960 | but things you know medical events unexpected medical events loss of business things like that and

00:23:24.400 | when I started studying it and I realized how

00:23:27.440 | important there's a strong argument to be made for how important the the

00:23:32.400 | Relatively and again correct me in a moment and anything I've gotten wrong here

00:23:36.280 | But on how the relatively liberal bankruptcy provisions of the United States as compared to many other countries

00:23:42.520 | How important that has been to the growth of economy the ability of an entrepreneur?

00:23:47.240 | especially and an individual to kind of reset and be able to start over again and not be stuck with

00:23:54.000 | Charles Dickens version of a debtor's prison for the rest of their life

00:23:58.240 | Yeah, it's it bankruptcy is a financial is a financial safety net and

00:24:04.400 | It's always been that way or in the modern iteration of the bankruptcy laws

00:24:10.800 | it's been a financial safety net that allows you to

00:24:17.240 | Take a risk and start a business

00:24:19.840 | it allows you to

00:24:23.000 | Think beyond where you are and and yeah, there are some people who just make bad financial decisions and

00:24:31.400 | Like I said, I've been a bankruptcy lawyer since the end of 1995

00:24:35.600 | there have been there have been those people that come in and sit down in front of me and I just

00:24:42.120 | We look at each other and we say yeah, you know, that wasn't the smartest move you've ever made but

00:24:47.440 | But that doesn't happen

00:24:50.320 | all that often at all and and and this was something that I

00:24:56.800 | Didn't realize when I set off on my career path

00:25:01.440 | I

00:25:03.720 | Didn't realize just how infrequently

00:25:09.720 | Bad decision-making comes into play

00:25:12.480 | One of the big reasons for people to go into bankruptcy is love it's amazing

00:25:21.360 | Family members co-signing for cars for other family members

00:25:27.720 | I've I've had more than my fair share of

00:25:33.320 | Grandparents were brought into bankruptcy only because they co-signed for a grandchild's

00:25:40.000 | automobile first car out and now what we're seeing is a

00:25:45.400 | Lot of the people who are being brought down by private student loans our grandparents

00:25:52.240 | Because because private student loans again, they're credit based

00:25:57.000 | Now if you look at an 18 year old and then you look at their parents

00:26:02.760 | well, their parents probably don't have great credit because they've just been through the ringer of

00:26:07.400 | 0809 10 11 12 the whole recession

00:26:11.680 | They've they've had diminished income they have

00:26:16.040 | Diminished value of their assets. Maybe they went through financial hardship on their own

00:26:21.920 | so who do you look to you look to the grandparents you look to the

00:26:27.480 | The retiree who's got a stable income who probably owns their house

00:26:32.880 | Outright if not darn close to it who isn't making any major financial investments right now

00:26:39.480 | There's there's no new money going out. They're the stable one

00:26:43.360 | So the grandchild goes to the grandparent ask them to co-sign the student loan because they're the ones with the best credit in the family

00:26:50.680 | Then the kid comes out of school

00:26:53.160 | I I have a client in my office who has a hundred and forty six

00:26:58.760 | thousand dollars in

00:27:01.840 | private student loans

00:27:03.840 | Wow that she co-signed for her granddaughter

00:27:08.320 | who had hoped it to you know live in the American Dream and

00:27:13.880 | Now my client is is on on

00:27:19.360 | the other side of the V as I say she's

00:27:22.920 | been dragged into court by National Collegiate Student Loan Trust who is

00:27:28.400 | The large or the largest

00:27:33.320 | private student loan trust out there

00:27:36.640 | being sued for

00:27:39.600 | $146,000

00:27:41.600 | Wow that's

00:27:44.080 | That's a tough

00:27:46.920 | As a tough situation to be in yeah

00:27:49.640 | And so I want to talk about some specific advice and then if we have time

00:27:55.360 | And it's back into even that situation that you're in with that with that client

00:27:59.680 | But let's start kind of a little bit farther back and try to help people avoid

00:28:03.760 | avoid

00:28:06.720 | Let's try to help people avoid that and the comment I have to throw in one of my one of my favorite Bible verses on

00:28:12.480 | the subject

00:28:13.920 | Proverbs on co-signing I just I love this because I love the language of it

00:28:18.520 | but I'll read it my child if you co-sign a loan for a friend or

00:28:23.120 | Guarantee the debt of someone you hardly know if you've trapped yourself by your agreement and are caught by what you said

00:28:28.600 | Quick get out of it

00:28:30.800 | If you possibly can you've placed yourself at your friends mercy now swallow your pride go and beg to have your name erased

00:28:40.880 | So in my mind, that's a good place to start for a co-signing that's from from Proverbs 6 6

00:28:47.080 | But I just had to throw that in because it's one of my it's one of the simplest things to avoid

00:28:51.960 | but yet that

00:28:55.000 | Heart of compassion that starts to tug at our heartstrings of saying I really love this person

00:29:00.400 | I want them to get a good education. I want them to have a nice car

00:29:03.680 | I want them to be able to buy this house their life is gonna be

00:29:06.720 | Improved but I tell you the number at least my observation the number of times it works out

00:29:10.760 | Well are far fewer many fewer than the times it works out poorly

00:29:15.720 | Yeah, let's start at the beginning and assume that I have gone to school

00:29:21.760 | I have made some I've taken out student loans and I've gotten out of school

00:29:27.760 | I've got some student loans. I've got a you know, I've got a car payment. I've got a mortgage

00:29:32.240 | I've got ten thousand bucks of credit card debt. So

00:29:36.360 | Median income doing all right, you know, my wife and I are both working

00:29:40.160 | But then all of a sudden we find out that we're having a kid and then fast-forward a few months

00:29:44.720 | She has a difficult pregnancy and she's on bedrest. She loses her job. We have a child

00:29:50.480 | maybe the child has some special needs and so she's not gonna be able to work and now I'm kind of stuck and

00:29:56.640 | The month is more than the money and I I'm still sort of making it but I recognize that

00:30:02.960 | Things are gonna go wrong here

00:30:06.000 | What if you had the opportunity to give somebody some advice at that situation where the plan?

00:30:10.880 | Isn't working out quite as well as it was supposed to be and we're we can see that we're gonna start to have some problems

00:30:16.480 | Knowing what you know, what would you want to proactively do in that situation?

00:30:21.560 | Well talk about stacking the deck against somebody in that fact. I had to give a little bit

00:30:27.480 | You gotta make it difficult, right?

00:30:30.240 | I'm waiting for you to tell me that they're tied to the train tracks

00:30:35.080 | And you know the train is approaching I I I'm actually going to back out

00:30:41.000 | From that fact pattern because I'm I I'm gonna tell you what to do the day you graduate from college

00:30:48.280 | Okay, because I like that even better. There's there's one thing that you can do on that day

00:30:54.880 | You know when you graduate from college you get a six-month

00:30:59.600 | Window until you have to start paying your student loans, right? Yes federal student loans. You get us you get a six-month window

00:31:05.880 | You don't have to take that six-month window

00:31:09.040 | You can elect to put yourself into repayment

00:31:13.680 | immediately now

00:31:16.600 | Bear with me

00:31:18.160 | When you bring yourself into repayment

00:31:20.480 | The first thing you do for your federal student loans is you get yourself into one of the income based

00:31:28.800 | repayment plans now for new graduates

00:31:31.600 | It is different than for people who graduated some time ago, and I'll I'll review the two the two

00:31:38.200 | The two options for new graduates. It's called pay as you earn or new IBR

00:31:46.000 | It allows you to set your student loan payments at ten percent of your

00:31:53.920 | disposable adjusted gross income

00:31:58.200 | And

00:32:00.200 | Disposable adjusted gross income is household adjusted gross income from the bottom line of your tax return

00:32:07.800 | Post post retirement contributions. Yep bottom line. I'm on last class. Okay. Yep last line at the 1040

00:32:16.760 | minus

00:32:19.080 | 150 percent of the poverty level for a household of your size

00:32:25.800 | Okay, so if now

00:32:29.200 | Now if you think about it when you come out of college

00:32:33.080 | What is more than likely going to be your adjusted gross income for the year immediately prior?

00:32:41.280 | It's gonna be really low isn't it right? It's gonna be either

00:32:45.400 | You know, maybe you'll maybe you work part-time

00:32:48.520 | Maybe you made minimum wage maybe a little over that maybe it's zero

00:32:54.080 | So if you put yourself into IBR or pay as you earn that day

00:32:58.880 | You're paying for for new loans pays you earn is 10% old IBR is 15%

00:33:06.440 | 10% of zero is

00:33:09.120 | zero

00:33:10.800 | Exactly. You can be in repayment at zero dollars a month

00:33:15.800 | That's right. Yep, and you recertify once a year

00:33:20.400 | so at the end

00:33:23.960 | That why do you want to get yourself into one of these income based repayment options because for newer loans the 10%

00:33:31.000 | Repayment option at the end of 20 years of repayment

00:33:34.920 | The unpaid balance is discharged for old loans

00:33:40.360 | 25 years the unpaid balance is discharged

00:33:44.160 | We're talking only about federal loans here, right only federal loans and is discharged without regard to the size of the balance

00:33:52.840 | without regard to the size of the balance now just a caveat as

00:33:57.840 | Of right now the way that the regs are written

00:34:01.080 | That is going to trigger a 1099

00:34:04.800 | but but number one

00:34:08.240 | That's 20 or 25 years down the road and number two. You only pay taxes on

00:34:15.040 | On

00:34:18.240 | Debt settlement income to the extent that you're solvent when you get the 1099

00:34:24.600 | So if you're in solvent 20 or 25 years from now, and it's not that hard to be in solvent

00:34:31.120 | If you're planning 20 or 25 years in advance

00:34:34.040 | You may not even have to pay taxes, but that's that's kicking the can very far down the road

00:34:39.760 | In addition if you come out of school and you work in public service

00:34:47.320 | federal government state government

00:34:49.320 | municipal government or a 501 c3 not-for-profit

00:34:54.040 | regardless of the kind of work that you do

00:34:56.880 | after

00:34:59.280 | 120 timely monthly payments

00:35:01.680 | The unpaid balance is forgiven no 1099 and it's only 10 years

00:35:08.320 | Okay, okay, so here's the scenario so my show is called the radical personal finance

00:35:16.800 | So here's my plan

00:35:18.800 | I've decided that I need to build a social network that is strong

00:35:23.280 | So I'm going to choose to go to an Ivy League school. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of I don't have a lot of

00:35:28.120 | Background I'm gonna max out the federal loan system with as many loans as I can get from the federal loan system

00:35:34.960 | I'm gonna go ahead and set up my Ivy League school and I'm gonna focus on building my social network

00:35:39.960 | once I get out I'm going to establish my own 501 c3 to

00:35:45.440 | To you know be the change that I wish to see in the world

00:35:48.760 | And it's gonna take me at least 10 years to build this thing and because I'm good at living cheap

00:35:54.160 | I don't really need to even though I'm the executive director. I don't need to bring that much out of it as

00:35:59.240 | salary towards me which keeps my

00:36:02.960 | my

00:36:05.240 | household adjusted gross income

00:36:07.160 | Relatively low and I am gonna go ahead and since I am the executive director

00:36:11.840 | I am gonna go ahead and put in place a pension plan

00:36:15.280 | And establish that and I'm gonna defer the maximum contribution to that pension plan for the first 10 years of running that

00:36:21.360 | Organization while we get things going because we believe that it's in the best interest of all of our

00:36:26.680 | constituents that the employees of the

00:36:29.600 | Of the nonprofit not-for-profit organization be able to defer the maximum amount of money their retirement accounts

00:36:35.160 | It's my plan working

00:36:37.760 | So long as you are employed full-time by that 501 c3

00:36:43.080 | Sounds like a great plan to me. I like it. This is good

00:36:46.880 | So keep going. Yeah, absolutely. So that that's your federal money and

00:36:52.560 | By the way, you should be maxing your federal money

00:36:57.120 | If you're good, like I said at the beginning if you're gonna take money take the federal first

00:37:01.680 | It's the cheapest it gives you the most options and what's the current interest rate on federal student loans at the moment?

00:37:08.680 | They just announced

00:37:10.800 | Hang on. They just announced what the rate was going to be for July

00:37:17.040 | This ballpark is fine. No, I want to give you the real number

00:37:21.920 | The real number is

00:37:31.800 | 1.29% for direct subsidized and

00:37:34.560 | 5.84 for unsubsidized. Let me explain the difference between subsidized and

00:37:41.240 | Unsubsidized it's important

00:37:44.680 | Subsidized student loans the federal government pays the interest while you are in school

00:37:52.640 | Unsubsidized student loans

00:37:57.960 | Interest accrues from the minute that you take out the loan

00:38:01.160 | So if you take out a five thousand dollar loan, you're gonna owe more than five thousand dollars on graduation day

00:38:08.000 | If it's unsubsidized if it's subsidized on graduation day, you'll owe five thousand dollars

00:38:14.440 | Okay, so there's there's that difference

00:38:17.880 | But as you can see the rates are fairly low and they're fixed once you take out the loan

00:38:26.800 | The interest rate remains the same until it is paid off

00:38:31.040 | For the federal loans for the private student loans. They are all variable

00:38:37.020 | every note that I've seen has

00:38:41.040 | The interest rate adjusting on a monthly basis

00:38:45.520 | You have no income based repayment options

00:38:52.560 | You have no discharge options. You've got no forgiveness options

00:38:57.320 | what that means is your first money as

00:39:01.960 | between federal or private if you can bring your IBR payment down or

00:39:09.200 | Your pays you earn payment down

00:39:12.240 | every other

00:39:15.080 | dollar

00:39:16.160 | Goes to pay the private student loans

00:39:20.920 | Because you want to get rid of them as quickly as you can right now

00:39:26.240 | If you can't make the private student loan payment, let's talk about that

00:39:33.200 | What happens if you can't make the payment, right?

00:39:36.800 | Don't make partial payments doesn't help you it doesn't

00:39:42.840 | Make the lender like you the lender isn't a person. They're an institution

00:39:49.160 | Okay, if you can't make the full payment

00:39:52.000 | Then you can't make the full payment

00:39:54.760 | private student loans as I said earlier

00:39:57.880 | There is no difference between a private student loan and a bank loan or credit card. So what happens is

00:40:05.320 | You miss a payment you go into

00:40:09.240 | default

00:40:11.200 | After 180 days they charge off the account, which is just an accounting term. It doesn't mean that you don't owe the money

00:40:19.200 | Once they charge off the account

00:40:21.200 | You go to a collection agency. You go to a second tier collection agency and then ultimately you find yourself

00:40:29.200 | with a lawyer contacting you

00:40:32.040 | now and

00:40:34.280 | This this very state by state

00:40:36.280 | There is a statute of limitations a time limitation

00:40:41.580 | for the private student lender

00:40:44.800 | to file legal action against you once you go into default and

00:40:51.000 | That amount of time is going to vary state by state

00:40:56.800 | So you want to talk to somebody you want to talk to a lawyer in your state to find out how much time they have?

00:41:04.920 | Not every private student loan is going to file a lawsuit against you

00:41:13.800 | Some of them will sometimes they will sometimes they won't there's no way of knowing but if you can't make the payments

00:41:21.680 | You can't make the payments right

00:41:26.400 | you know at that stage of the game what I tell my clients if they come to me and they're

00:41:32.720 | Three years past you on their private student loans and they say I want to I want to settle the student loan. I want to

00:41:40.280 | deal with the collection agency or I want to start making payments again because

00:41:44.760 | Because I I don't want it past you on my on my credit anymore

00:41:50.160 | What I tell my clients is at that point the damage is already done

00:41:55.780 | your credit score is already shot you've already got the collection on your credit report and

00:42:01.360 | until such time as

00:42:06.240 | Somebody files legal action against you if you're that far past due

00:42:10.720 | You're gonna get a better

00:42:13.440 | settlement deal in

00:42:15.600 | litigation than you will

00:42:17.880 | through a regular collections process

00:42:20.340 | So wait for litigation to start on their end

00:42:23.960 | Is that what you're saying?

00:42:25.000 | Yeah

00:42:25.500 | If you're that far behind and it's not easily caught up then go ahead and just wait for litigation and then go ahead get

00:42:31.480 | Representation and and go and fight it there. Yeah, absolutely

00:42:35.760 | You're dealing because you're dealing with a lawyer instead of dealing with a collection agency. There's a very different mindset

00:42:42.600 | And as I tell my clients all the time when you're just in collections

00:42:48.120 | Everything is voluntary

00:42:50.760 | You ask them for documentation or information whether they give it to you or not. It's all voluntary

00:42:56.000 | You ask them for a settlement whether they agree to it or not. It's all voluntary on the flip side. They ask you for money

00:43:03.520 | It's all voluntary

00:43:05.120 | You bring it into court suddenly you've got discovery. You've got disclosure rules. You've got rules of evidence

00:43:11.640 | they've got to be able to prove a

00:43:13.960 | whole host of things in order to get

00:43:17.600 | over every legal hurdle to prove the case and to prove the amount of money that you owe and

00:43:24.240 | That they're even collecting in a timely fashion

00:43:27.920 | and when you're in

00:43:31.200 | When you're in that litigation the collection agency's attorney is there

00:43:35.840 | Obviously if you have assets then I would assume their goal is to attach your assets

00:43:41.840 | But is there more likely goal considering you probably don't have money. You probably had something happen

00:43:47.280 | Is there more likely goal garnishment of wages? Is that what they're working towards?

00:43:50.760 | Is their goal of the successful lawsuit against you?

00:43:53.920 | They're working towards all of it. Some states don't allow wage garnishment some states really

00:44:00.300 | Yeah, some states don't have wage garnishment. I believe I believe if memory serves correctly that Texas does not have wage garnishment

00:44:07.700 | There are some states that have unlimited homestead, which means that they cannot put a lien against your real estate

00:44:15.760 | Florida has unlimited homestead. Texas has unlimited homestead other states have limited homesteads

00:44:23.000 | In some states a judgment is automatically a lien against real estate in other states

00:44:29.640 | They need to jump through some extra hoops to be able to get the lien put on some states have higher wage garnishment

00:44:36.160 | some states in in in community property states a

00:44:42.120 | Judgment can be executed against all community property assets. What that means is if you're married in

00:44:51.320 | the state of California

00:44:54.240 | What's yours is mine and what's mine is yours which means that my wife's income

00:44:59.360 | Is in the absence of a prenuptial or postnuptial agreement my wife's income is community property

00:45:05.740 | So if I owe money on a private student loan

00:45:10.380 | They sue me they get a judgment against me. They can execute against my wife's wages. They can garnish my wife's paycheck

00:45:18.700 | I don't it's you know

00:45:28.400 | Be a lot simple, I guess it's always a lot simpler if you pay him up pay it pay things off early

00:45:32.640 | When you get into this world

00:45:37.000 | you know, I used to be leery of attorneys and then I had a client who was a bankruptcy attorney and

00:45:41.400 | I started talking to him about some of these details and from then on I learned what I didn't know and from then on I

00:45:48.640 | Just said cut and I would send so many people I said you're in trouble here called call the bankruptcy attorney

00:45:53.880 | And there is a reason you want good representation to come out ahead in these situations

00:45:59.400 | yeah, and and what's really interesting is

00:46:03.880 | because and and we talked earlier about those

00:46:08.360 | Securitization scheme and and how the assets and how the debts get transferred and poured over into these investment vehicles

00:46:15.500 | What we're finding is that the paperwork is just as shoddy in

00:46:22.200 | student loans as it was in the mortgage market which which means that

00:46:28.480 | it's never a slam-dunk case on either side of the fence if if you're defending the lawsuit and

00:46:35.840 | Either you know enough about the lay of the land or your attorney knows enough about the lay of the land

00:46:43.000 | you really have a lot of leverage to be able to

00:46:49.640 | Negotiate some pretty favorable settlements in some situations

00:46:53.680 | Because it's it's not a slam-dunk case on the part of the lenders

00:46:59.520 | Are you getting have you had any cases where because of paperwork?

00:47:04.800 | Irregularities will use the politically correct term that you've had a complete discharge of the debt I

00:47:10.000 | have had

00:47:12.720 | situations where

00:47:17.360 | What what what will happen is

00:47:20.160 | I'll get to the point where I've done full discovery on the case

00:47:25.200 | And I've recognized that there are holes in the case and that they don't have they don't have a slam-dunk whatsoever

00:47:32.040 | I'll go back to my client let my client know but my clients position is

00:47:37.360 | nine times out of ten going to be

00:47:40.120 | Well, even if there's a hole in their case they could still conceivably win

00:47:47.200 | right

00:47:48.960 | Because they could it it all comes down to a judge and it all comes down to it what an individual

00:47:54.760 | human being is going to rule whether or not those holes in their case and whether or not the lapse in chain of

00:48:03.040 | ownership of that debt is

00:48:05.240 | Enough to defeat the case on its face

00:48:08.120 | my clients

00:48:10.640 | to a person have all at that juncture said to me I

00:48:15.800 | Don't want to take the risk. I'm not willing to take any risk whatsoever

00:48:19.600 | But we have enough

00:48:22.360 | Leverage that we can settle it far more aggressively than might otherwise be the case

00:48:31.800 | So I I took a really long time to say no

00:48:36.880 | I I have not gotten to the point where I have done a complete discharge of

00:48:43.280 | that private student loan in a litigation context because

00:48:47.740 | Every one of my clients has recognized that

00:48:51.960 | Sometimes it doesn't matter who's wrong or right?

00:48:54.960 | Sometimes it just matters whether the judge had a bad cup of coffee that morning, right?

00:49:00.200 | Yeah, and that makes sense

00:49:02.280 | I mean when you get if you can negotiate an aggressive settlement at some point in time

00:49:06.120 | the the reality is the borrower borrowed the money and that also

00:49:11.680 | Satisfies some of the the moral obligation to repay and if you can negotiate a fair settlement

00:49:17.720 | Where both parties interests are protected then I I can understand why most I can understand why most people would

00:49:25.500 | Would make that choice back to the deferral

00:49:29.200 | I want to ask a question when you're originally talking about

00:49:32.040 | The decision to make right when you graduate from college and I'm glad that you shared that

00:49:36.920 | Because that's not something that I've ever known to advise people, but I I like that advice

00:49:42.080 | Is there if you don't take advantage of that deferral?

00:49:45.720 | Is there any way to save that and for example use that six month deferral in the future if you?

00:49:51.000 | Ran into financial stress or anything like that

00:49:53.160 | there there are

00:49:56.160 | There are financial hardship forbearance is that that you can engage in

00:50:03.800 | Depending upon depending on based upon just like okay. We saved that six month

00:50:07.680 | Scenario that's a one-day thing no no that's user to lose it, but but again bear in mind if if

00:50:14.320 | Let's say you lose your job and

00:50:18.320 | Now you've got no income and you were making

00:50:21.800 | $75,000 a year before your student loan payment was

00:50:25.600 | $480 a month you lose your job

00:50:28.400 | What do you do if you're on?

00:50:31.640 | Income based repayment or pays you earn you pick up the phone and you call your servicer

00:50:36.840 | And you say I just lost my job. I want to recertify my IBR now and

00:50:42.680 | You can read and you can reformulate

00:50:45.880 | The amount of money that's due on a monthly basis without

00:50:49.960 | using a forbearance or deferment

00:50:53.440 | I've got it. Yeah, go ahead good if you've got a zero dollar income then

00:51:01.840 | You ratchet your payments down to 10% of zero dollars right okay, right?

00:51:07.560 | So that what you shared it's incredibly valuable, and I want to manage the time of our interview here

00:51:15.760 | I've got a question that came in from a listener, but I want to make sure that if you have for example additional

00:51:21.840 | Suggestions in the same line that you started to answer my question from here's what you do from college

00:51:26.860 | That you that you continue with that. Do you have an additional?

00:51:31.440 | Recommend do you have additional recommendations for the scenario?

00:51:35.040 | I outlined or for that college student who's gone ahead and followed that initial advice in

00:51:39.800 | Give additional recommendations along that line I do to to to a limited extent if you've got private student loans

00:51:47.920 | You want to be able to go back to the lender and find out what their procedure?

00:51:53.760 | for a

00:51:55.680 | co-borrower release is a lot of lenders offer the ability to get a

00:52:02.080 | co-borrower release under certain situations

00:52:05.600 | under certain circumstances for example

00:52:08.940 | Sally may one of the Sally May loans has

00:52:14.440 | the ability to get your co-borrower release if you've made two years worth of regular payments and

00:52:21.360 | You're financially able to handle the loan on your own now of course that's gonna

00:52:25.120 | Bring a lot of other things into play for example your your income level and your assets and things like that

00:52:30.760 | but you want to try to set yourself up for that because

00:52:34.880 | Ideally, I'm sure you'd like to let grandma off the hook right if you can I'm sure grandma would like that too

00:52:41.880 | So that's really the next thing that that I would recommend

00:52:48.640 | Unfortunately, there's very little that can be done with respect to a private student loan so the best advice is

00:52:56.600 | Take as much money as you possibly can and pay that thing down as quickly as you can

00:53:02.980 | And and I know that that's that's advice. That's non advice

00:53:08.240 | But that's really the best that that anybody's gonna be able to tell you to do that having been said once you once you secure

00:53:16.280 | employment

00:53:17.840 | Once you've gotten on your on your feet financially

00:53:20.680 | Assuming that you're making your private student loan payments in a timely manner

00:53:25.080 | There are places where you can refinance your private student loans now that didn't exist even two or three years ago

00:53:32.920 | There are companies like

00:53:34.560 | SoFi is is is a big one that's in the market

00:53:37.320 | But there are tons of companies out there that are now helping people refinance their private student loans

00:53:43.480 | So if you're if you're making those payments on a timely basis

00:53:48.320 | That's gonna make you that much more attractive as a borrower for refinance on the student loan debt

00:53:54.040 | Even potentially even companies like

00:53:58.960 | The

00:54:03.520 | I'm blanking prosper prosper and lending Club. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like that even

00:54:08.440 | even if you could get an unsecured loan through that system and maybe it would be better in some regards if the terms could be

00:54:14.480 | Negotiated to be better than the private student loan at least that way you transition that debt away from a non bankruptable debt to a bankrupt

00:54:21.480 | Double debt which you know my in my mind is a win

00:54:24.480 | Absolutely, there's not a big as long as there's not a big cost a big big additional interest cost to do so

00:54:31.400 | sure, absolutely and

00:54:33.640 | there there have been people who have

00:54:36.920 | paid off their private student loans with their credit cards using a zero balance interest rate it just and

00:54:43.600 | Whether that's a smart move or a non smart move

00:54:46.360 | To your point it takes it out of the non discharge ability provision at the bankruptcy code for student loans

00:54:54.120 | I'd like to go into

00:54:56.760 | Your area of expertise with regard to somebody is in bankruptcy or is is in distress what could be done?

00:55:04.320 | But I want to lead into it with this question

00:55:06.760 | And I'd like you to answer this question and then give any other generalized advice around it

00:55:11.480 | This is a question from a list and I actually answered it on a show a few weeks ago

00:55:14.880 | I didn't focus specifically on the management of the student loan issue

00:55:19.340 | I focused on answering the investment question

00:55:21.840 | But even after the facts on my audience wrote in so Joshua you missed it you missed you here were a couple of ideas that

00:55:26.400 | You didn't cover so here's the here's the the short question from a listener listener said I read

00:55:32.480 | It says right now. I need help with the crazy student loan issue

00:55:34.960 | I'm currently paying almost $600 a month for a

00:55:38.200 | $102,000 student loan at 7% a couple of key things

00:55:43.160 | My credit is shot due to a bankruptcy filed last year the loan is with the Nelnet through the Department of Education

00:55:50.360 | The question is should I pay down the loan or find an investment that will pay me $600 to offset the payment?

00:55:56.760 | Right now the $600 is preventing me from moving forward on anything financial

00:56:01.240 | I'm expecting a lump sum of money in February like

00:56:04.440 | $60,000 and I'd love to invest it where I can earn six hundred dollars or more a month to offset the payment any ideas

00:56:10.640 | How would you answer that within the context of managing the student loan intelligently? Oh

00:56:14.560 | And I remember the question and I remember the follow-up that was

00:56:19.440 | Are you listening to the show? Yeah, that was okay was 191. I think right right right when you did the follow-up

00:56:25.080 | and and

00:56:27.680 | the point that your listener brought up about the

00:56:30.640 | The tax benefit of the $600 and the tax deductibility of the of the student loan. I thought was a useful one

00:56:37.660 | with respect to first first of all, we know that this is a

00:56:42.920 | federal student loan, so we

00:56:46.320 | know that

00:56:48.640 | Income based repayment is an option at least in theory

00:56:52.480 | So that's the first thing that I would look at to bring down that payment. That's the first thing that I would look at

00:56:58.360 | as

00:57:00.280 | to whether or not we

00:57:02.280 | Now the question is should I pay down the student loan using the windfall or should I invest it? That was the question

00:57:09.240 | I answered that I don't know in this scenario

00:57:11.520 | My advice was pay down the loan because the risk the the type of investment that would return

00:57:17.000 | Six just the question of okay. I got $60,000. You would need a 12%

00:57:22.280 | consistent monthly dividend essentially to be able to pay off the loan under those payments and if you calculate the

00:57:29.440 | Amount of time it would take to pay off the loan

00:57:31.560 | At $600 a month at $102,000 student loan at 7% you're looking at like 60 years of repayment

00:57:37.280 | So my observation was don't pay in this situation

00:57:41.300 | I would focus a hundred percent on paying down the student loan if you have a high income and I just put the

00:57:46.820 | $60,000 against it or if you have a bad income a low income

00:57:51.060 | then I'd invest the

00:57:52.740 | $60,000 potentially just keep the loan at minimum payments and focus on building up a high income

00:57:58.020 | Maybe starting a business buying a subway franchise, etc

00:58:00.560 | something like that to try to

00:58:02.480 | Generate enough capital where you can throw off a hundred thousand dollars of profit in a few years and wipe the thing out

00:58:08.160 | But as far as actually managing the loan, do you do you have any intelligent ideas that could help him? I

00:58:14.360 | Wouldn't pay down the loan. Okay

00:58:19.120 | The reason why I wouldn't pay down the loan it will there are a couple of reasons first of all

00:58:22.940 | I would look into income based repayment and pays you earn first because that's going to bring that loan payment in line with your income

00:58:31.860 | Second of all, you've got the tax deductibility of at least a portion of the money that you're paying

00:58:37.480 | On your student loan annually, so there's there's that but third of all and this is this is the main reason

00:58:44.800 | Why I wouldn't pay down that student loan

00:58:47.740 | You just came out of bankruptcy

00:58:49.740 | So your credit shot that that to me is

00:58:53.100 | That's that's the key part of that entire question

00:58:57.580 | If you just came out of bankruptcy and your credit is shot if you run into a financial

00:59:03.780 | event of any sort

00:59:06.620 | at this stage of the game, you've got no means of financing that and

00:59:10.620 | So that windfall at least a portion of that windfall

00:59:15.100 | I would think that you'd want to have that available to you because if you need the money

00:59:20.340 | You're not gonna have any other way of borrowing it, right?

00:59:23.820 | Because you just came out of bankruptcy

00:59:25.300 | So you want to have at least some of that windfall available in addition to your point that well if there's a financial

00:59:32.340 | Event then you want to know that you think that you've minimized the risk with respect to the student loan

00:59:40.220 | Remember if there's a financial event you can ratchet your payment down on those student loans

00:59:45.760 | income based repayment and pay as you earn

00:59:48.820 | change the conversation with respect to federal loans from how much do you owe and

00:59:55.740 | It changes it to how much is your payment?

00:59:59.420 | Because suddenly you don't care about how much you owe quite as much as you used to

01:00:08.100 | Because you've got that you've those payments are far more

01:00:12.340 | Malleable than they were in the old days

01:00:16.100 | The 7% interest rate is that a higher rate because of the bankruptcy event

01:00:23.060 | No, no

01:00:25.860 | federal student loan interest rates

01:00:28.060 | Very year by year based upon when you took the loan out

01:00:32.780 | But once you take the loan out it is set in stone for the remaining

01:00:37.300 | Life of that loan the only time that your federal student loan interest rate changes is if you have multiple

01:00:44.340 | loans at multiple interest rates

01:00:47.380 | And you consolidate through the US Department of Education direct loan program in that case the interest rate

01:00:54.940 | Becomes a weighted average of the interest rates of the loans that are consolidated

01:01:01.460 | Do you have advice regarding consolidating loans versus not consolidating loans

01:01:06.420 | You get one bite at the apple for consolidation of your federal student loans

01:01:11.820 | You only get one bite at the apple. It is a saving grace if you are ever in

01:01:18.900 | default

01:01:21.220 | it is a quick and dirty way of getting yourself out of default and

01:01:25.780 | Out of any enforcement mechanisms that the US Department of Education has against

01:01:31.380 | Defaulted student loan borrowers that's administrative wage offset tax refund offset

01:01:37.140 | Regular litigation legal action, so I don't like

01:01:43.140 | consolidating federal student loans

01:01:46.380 | Because I like keeping it in my back pocket. I never knew that that's a useful tip

01:01:53.700 | Yep

01:01:55.700 | So if you are I you know I've got three loans

01:01:59.820 | I've been paying them, but I had a hiccup. I got laid off again my wife got pregnant now. She's back

01:02:04.340 | Okay, we can pick it up. We've been in default

01:02:06.340 | So you're saying that I've been in behind four months if I go ahead and consolidate

01:02:11.660 | Does that improve that situation?

01:02:14.500 | Because it wipes the default or what how does it help me?

01:02:17.460 | Okay, let's talk about default

01:02:20.980 | Federal student loans go into default when they are 270 days past you okay?

01:02:25.660 | That's default anything prior to that is delinquency, so let's let's say that you're

01:02:32.900 | 370 days past you because I want you in default for the purposes of this conversation

01:02:37.740 | There are two ways of getting your federal student loans out of default one is rehabilitation

01:02:43.620 | The other is consolidation you get one bite at the apple for each one

01:02:49.540 | Okay, so you can consolidate

01:02:51.540 | your your

01:02:54.100 | defaulted federal student loans, and you're out of default in

01:02:57.660 | 30 to 90 days somewhere in that range okay, or

01:03:02.460 | You can rehabilitate which is also one bite at the apple it involves making nine

01:03:09.620 | Monthly payments within a 10 month period of time

01:03:15.420 | To the debt collector that is handling the federal student loan at the end of the nine months

01:03:21.900 | At the end of the nine payments rather because it could conceivably be ten months at the end of the nine payments

01:03:29.340 | Your loan comes out of default and goes back into active status

01:03:35.340 | The fact that you were in default on your federal student loan gets taken off of your credit report

01:03:44.940 | Nice like that yeah, you only get one bite at the apple for that also in

01:03:51.900 | Terms of because the next question becomes well how much would those monthly payments be the monthly payments are the?

01:04:00.860 | reasonable and affordable monthly payments

01:04:03.940 | reasonable and affordable under current regulations are

01:04:08.420 | Deemed to be the amount that the payment would be if you were in IBR or pay as you earn

01:04:16.020 | so

01:04:18.020 | let's say you're in default and

01:04:20.740 | You are

01:04:23.340 | unemployed

01:04:25.140 | still unemployed

01:04:26.660 | That is the best time to rehabilitate your student loan because under reasonable and affordable

01:04:32.700 | It's you can't have a zero dollar a month

01:04:36.620 | Rehabilitation payment it's got to be at least five bucks a month

01:04:39.540 | So if you're unemployed

01:04:42.460 | You can rehabilitate your student loans at five bucks a month make nine monthly payments of five bucks

01:04:50.260 | $45 in total

01:04:53.060 | Brings you out of default into active repayment you elect IBR or pay as you earn

01:04:59.380 | You're unemployed, and you're making payments at zero dollars a month

01:05:04.060 | You can actually do that and I've done it

01:05:07.220 | Yeah, I like I gotta go listen to your entire podcast

01:05:12.180 | I like this at you and I you and I have brains that probably work similarly like I like these little angles that you've been

01:05:18.100 | Able to come up with you know my my knowledge of student loans is is extremely limited

01:05:23.420 | And so I'm glad to have some of these ideas that you've been sharing with us super useful. I'm happy to help

01:05:29.500 | I'm happy to happy to share the information with your listeners Joshua

01:05:33.060 | Are there any other broad based pieces of advice that you would have for somebody in?

01:05:38.300 | Various stages of problems in addition to what you've covered so far

01:05:42.460 | I have one piece of advice for student loan borrowers and

01:05:47.900 | That is to stay away from the companies that you see online

01:05:55.460 | Or on late-night TV these student loan

01:06:00.580 | validation companies or student loan counselors

01:06:03.860 | There have been more than a few of them that the government has taken down in recent months

01:06:11.460 | Because they are scamming people out of money when it comes to federal student loans

01:06:16.540 | You can do your own IBR

01:06:19.660 | You can do your own pay as you earn they're both two-page forms

01:06:24.340 | you can get them directly from the US Department of Education you can call your servicer and

01:06:30.460 | Most of the time they'll do that. They'll do it for you over the phone

01:06:33.940 | You can rehabilitate yours your defaulted federal student loan on your own and it doesn't cost you any money

01:06:40.980 | You can do a federal student loan consolidation on your own doesn't cost you any money

01:06:47.020 | You don't have to spend money to do it

01:06:50.880 | There are some people who will come to me for example and say look I know I don't need anybody to do it

01:06:58.580 | I know I don't have to spend any money on it at all, but I don't want the hassle

01:07:03.380 | I don't have the time. I'm afraid of making a mistake. Can I hire you to do it? Yeah, I'm happy to do it

01:07:09.620 | but the amount of money that I charge is a

01:07:12.980 | It's it's a fraction because I recognize that my value is in my knowledge

01:07:20.820 | Not necessarily in

01:07:23.140 | Typing out a two-page form and in fact, I do everything humanly possible to dissuade people from hiring me for that

01:07:29.140 | Because I gotta tell you I think it's a waste of money

01:07:31.500 | The value

01:07:35.540 | comes in in dealing with anybody

01:07:38.640 | When it's a private student loan and you're in default

01:07:42.980 | That's when there's real value in hiring somebody to do something for you

01:07:49.660 | That person should always be a lawyer because if you're going into litigation

01:07:53.780 | Only a lawyer can represent you and it ideally should be somebody who's local to you

01:07:59.400 | Because if if you're being hauled into your local court and your lawyer isn't local

01:08:06.380 | You've got to start asking questions about how that lawyer is going to effectively manage

01:08:11.760 | Your your defense, right?

01:08:16.700 | You made an easy transition for me I was just gonna ask you how do

01:08:21.580 | bankruptcy attorneys and

01:08:24.660 | If you're working specifically with with student loan

01:08:27.620 | Litigation, how do you guys set your fees and how can someone expect that to actually work as far as the financial?

01:08:36.340 | Benefit, you know that your client for example. Oh

01:08:39.260 | $140,000. How do you set your fees?

01:08:42.860 | I do not set my fees based upon the amount of money that they owe. Okay, I

01:08:47.140 | That's and that's universal for the most part for federal student loan stuff

01:08:54.900 | That's all flat fee

01:08:56.940 | and it tends to be

01:08:58.980 | Again incredibly low

01:09:01.860 | It's I do it more as a public service than anything else

01:09:07.100 | For litigation defense that also tends to be a flat fee. Obviously, it's more expensive than

01:09:12.500 | than doing an IBR application I

01:09:17.020 | Personally set it as a flat fee because I know that my clients

01:09:22.580 | Need to have some certainty in how much they're getting into

01:09:28.900 | It it it just doesn't make sense

01:09:33.380 | Arch a client on an hourly basis as far as I'm concerned and that's based upon what my normal hourly basis is

01:09:39.060 | I

01:09:40.580 | Know that other lawyers do it on an hourly basis

01:09:43.420 | There are some lawyers that do it flat fee different different strokes for different folks. I think that the most important thing for

01:09:50.260 | for a borrower to look at is

01:09:53.220 | Who the person is what kind of experience they have what kind of training they have?

01:10:00.740 | What organizations they're active members of not just I'm a member of ABC Bar Association, but what are they active in?

01:10:08.500 | You know, what sort of continuing education are they undertaking?

01:10:14.740 | Spend some time. That's that's what the internet is for spend some time

01:10:20.460 | Getting to know your potential service providers before you even pick up the phone and talk to somebody

01:10:29.540 | Two final questions one continuing the theme of the debt help

01:10:34.880 | Companies, this is an area of financial advice that I've really

01:10:38.820 | struggled to know what the right answer is and I've just kind of been forced to go based and kind of parrot the answer

01:10:43.960 | That I've heard from some other people, but if somebody's in a situation that's broader than student loans

01:10:49.660 | They may be that may or may not include student loan defaults, but it's broader than student loans and they're struggling

01:10:56.340 | And they're trying to decide. Okay. I need some help. I need some consumer credit counseling

01:11:00.740 | Do you have any?

01:11:03.660 | Perspective you can give on the layout of the of the landscape, you know

01:11:08.620 | For example National Consumer Credit Counseling affiliate

01:11:11.580 | I was at is that the name their affiliate of the national organization or the private kind of where are the gotchas in that?

01:11:18.060 | Business basically is what I'm asking. Oh

01:11:20.060 | Goodness there. There are so few of these companies that I like

01:11:26.520 | And and it is so unfortunate

01:11:28.520 | as

01:11:31.000 | Far as credit counseling is concerned credit counselors will typically deal with only limited types of debts

01:11:37.920 | For example

01:11:41.680 | the one company that I tend to send people to does work with

01:11:46.420 | credit card debts and now they deal with

01:11:49.400 | now they deal with student loans, but

01:11:53.540 | They're not going to be able to deal with say

01:11:55.740 | Repossessions or foreclosure avoidance, you know

01:12:01.860 | That's that's as close as I can really tell you

01:12:05.940 | You want a company that's been around for a while. You want a company that ideally is a member of

01:12:12.220 | NFCC which is the National Foundation for credit counseling

01:12:16.780 | Anybody that my rule of thumb is

01:12:22.460 | any company that

01:12:24.460 | advertises on

01:12:26.460 | Television after 10 o'clock at night or during what would normally be business hours. Don't call them

01:12:33.220 | Just don't

01:12:35.900 | That's my rule of thumb and and it it tends to serve my clients pretty well

01:12:41.580 | There are a lot of fly-by-night companies a lot of a lot of the

01:12:49.900 | And I'm using my air quotes here the credit counseling companies became

01:12:54.700 | loan modification companies during the during the the mortgage meltdown or

01:13:01.180 | short-sale companies and now they've become student loan companies and you know, they're

01:13:07.300 | it's the same people over and over and over again and

01:13:10.740 | they just

01:13:12.860 | They slap a new ribbon on it

01:13:14.860 | money attracts good people and it attracts scum and

01:13:19.580 | differentiating

01:13:21.060 | Between them is always a constant challenge for us. No question about it. No question about it. Your best bet is really

01:13:28.940 | to talk to some the first person that anybody should talk to is somebody who's got a license in

01:13:35.620 | something whether it's a certified financial planner like you are or a lawyer like I am or a

01:13:42.260 | CPA or an enrolled agent because they're likely going to know somebody who is

01:13:49.420 | reputable as

01:13:50.660 | Opposed to just shooting blind on this stuff

01:13:53.020 | Last question is actually a business question and it has to do with the impact of your podcast on your legal practice

01:14:02.580 | I'm not sure how long you've been doing your podcast, but it seems like you've got quite a number of episodes here and

01:14:08.380 | I'm interested to know what the

01:14:11.180 | Impact has been of actually creating your show and how it's helped or hurt your business

01:14:18.780 | Here's something that you don't know about me. I

01:14:21.020 | Started podcasting in 2005 really? Yeah, I had a show called the dad podcast

01:14:27.620 | I was the dad podcast or the debt podcast. Yeah, okay. See you BT got a podcast

01:14:33.420 | And it ran from the beginning of 2005

01:14:38.660 | Until I want to say March 2006

01:14:42.060 | And it was designed

01:14:45.860 | Really for me more than anybody else's means for me to try to understand

01:14:51.580 | The new bankruptcy law that was being rolled out in 2005

01:14:55.000 | And so I figured that the best way to learn about it was to talk about it. So and at that time

01:15:03.540 | Podcasting did enormous things for my practice. It helped me secure speaking engagements it drove

01:15:11.660 | Not necessarily

01:15:15.700 | Direct clients, but it drove a lot of referrals from other professionals

01:15:20.860 | And that was in the baby days of podcasting. I mean it it was

01:15:25.260 | the wild wild frontier

01:15:28.620 | Now the student loan show I do the student loan show and I'm launching another show

01:15:35.860 | with a colleague of mine at consumer ledger, which is

01:15:40.660 | a personal finance site that I was

01:15:44.620 | Running on and off with with another consumer bankruptcy attorney

01:15:48.180 | But the student loan show really has done a lot for my practice actually again more through referrals

01:15:56.220 | and more through speaking engagements and more through just generally

01:16:02.660 | elevating

01:16:05.460 | Elevating my profile in the community. I

01:16:09.900 | Think that podcasting is phenomenal. I do my favorite thing about your site

01:16:13.940 | You've got this thing right on your site says have a question

01:16:16.220 | You put your name your email enter your question and you have a drop-down means has answered on the show

01:16:20.900 | And then you have the I want a one-on-one analysis

01:16:23.980 | This is brilliant because it allows potential

01:16:28.180 | Clients of yours to ask you their question and you can respond number one

01:16:33.460 | You get a great you go to gate you get you get a great capture form here

01:16:37.540 | That is low that is low risk because I'm just submitting it for the show

01:16:41.840 | You get consistent material for your show to be able to answer these questions and obviously you have their email address

01:16:48.100 | So if you don't want answered on the show

01:16:49.260 | You can write out a paragraph back to them and even if they do or don't click one-on-one analysis

01:16:54.780 | You're still getting the lead either way you can respond and you can help them and then if they're a right fit for your service

01:17:00.580 | You can and your help, you know

01:17:01.980 | You might just send them to go fill out this form and is what you need

01:17:04.540 | Which is simple and easy for you to do or if you say I can help you and here's what you should consider or here's

01:17:09.060 | How you do it yourself?

01:17:10.020 | This is a brilliant setup here for you as far as very friendly consumer friendly marketing. I think this is awesome

01:17:16.900 | Everybody should be doing this

01:17:19.660 | Every personal service provider, that's what I'm convinced. I've got a couple of attorney friends of mine

01:17:25.340 | I've been trying to convince them to start a podcast and for many reasons

01:17:30.220 | But when you get into such a specialized area and more and more, I think we all need to be practicing

01:17:35.460 | I'm kind of doing the hard road here trying to be the generalist and it shows when I answer questions

01:17:39.540 | Incompletely because of my lack of knowledge in a specialist area

01:17:43.140 | But I'm trying to kind of be the broad based strokes here and see if this works this works

01:17:47.940 | but as far as an actual service provider, this is I

01:17:51.540 | Just want everyone to go to

01:17:54.500 | studentloanshow.com and you know, listen to the show if you have an interest in learning more

01:17:59.460 | But at least just look at this have a question format because this is some of the most consumer friendly

01:18:04.700 | Marketing I can imagine doing and I hope it's bringing you clients like gangbusters. It is. Thank you. I

01:18:12.220 | Enjoy online marketing I do

01:18:16.340 | And if you look at my law firm website, which is consumer help central.com. I did that one entirely on my own

01:18:24.780 | I

01:18:27.500 | enjoy

01:18:28.940 | Putting things together that make sense for my potential clients and you're doing hard work. You're doing this five days a week

01:18:35.980 | You're doing every day. That's but that's bananas, you know, that is but you know what? So here's a specific example

01:18:43.260 | as

01:18:45.020 | Far as why I'm doing it. I

01:18:47.020 | For years. I always loved listening to financial radio and the biggest influence was Dave Ramsey

01:18:52.260 | And he really encouraged me and I owe him a real debt of gratitude one of these days. I'm gonna meet him

01:18:57.900 | I really want to interview him. I just haven't haven't asked for it yet

01:19:01.380 | But one of these days I want to meet him and express that to him personally

01:19:03.940 | But as I've gone on even the thing that you said about consolidating student loans

01:19:08.420 | That is different than Dave's advice was and I made a mistake now

01:19:12.700 | I were perceived looking back at my own student loans because what Dave had told me was

01:19:18.060 | Consolidate your student loans. And so I dutifully at that phase of my life

01:19:22.700 | I dutifully went out and I had taken out I had three student loans through Sally Mae for college and

01:19:27.540 | I went ahead and consolidated them and then I was working because Dave said to consolidate them and I didn't you know

01:19:32.500 | I hadn't even graduated yet, but I just kind of did it right away even while I was still in school and

01:19:36.900 | Thankfully, I'm it worked out fine

01:19:38.660 | I worked like like a crazy man my senior year in college and actually wrote a check to Sally Mae two weeks before I

01:19:43.460 | Graduated and paid them all off before I graduated which was one of my personal financial goals

01:19:47.260 | But little things when I go back and start to dig into subjects more deeply little things

01:19:54.900 | Matter and what just the just the tips that you gave there of number one about consolidation and number two about

01:20:02.060 | The the discussion of go ahead and set this up on an income based repayment plan. Those tips are gonna save

01:20:08.340 | several dozen people in this audience a

01:20:11.060 | Tremendous amount of money and when we have the time in this kind of format to get into these things

01:20:16.860 | In detail and some of them then the primary impact not most mainstream consumers are not going to listen to my show

01:20:24.080 | It's too in-depth

01:20:24.940 | It's too much

01:20:25.780 | But the hardcore people will and then that allows me to multiply the information because then you know listener Ed and listener Jane

01:20:34.180 | They'll take that and their their niece or their nephew is getting ready to say

01:20:38.900 | Hey, listen, let me teach you a little financial tip here that you need to apply to your situation and we can accomplish just an incredible

01:20:44.820 | Change so I'm just kind of creating the I'm kind of creating the job

01:20:48.860 | I want to have but I also it's it's kind of that mixture of mission and

01:20:53.540 | you

01:20:55.540 | Know it's in it for their stuff in it for me, too

01:20:57.680 | I'm building a business that I want to have them building a lifestyle business

01:21:01.020 | but there's also a little bit of impact and when we get to the point of

01:21:04.560 | You know that even back to the student loan scam the crap that's been pulled in the past with all that marketing

01:21:11.440 | I'm I don't want that to happen again, and it'll you know Bush administration did that one, you know Clinton, whatever

01:21:19.280 | Obama administration, but there be another administration there be another thing and we're little by little with independent media

01:21:25.340 | We're slowly breaking the information logjam

01:21:28.680 | and if you look at it

01:21:30.440 | it's got people running scared because it's harder and harder for the banksters to control the narrative of

01:21:35.620 | You know when you've got five companies that own all the media media

01:21:39.740 | Brands then that's pretty easy for those companies to manipulate the narrative in a way that benefits them

01:21:45.580 | But we've got an ability to change that and that change is gonna lead to good things all all across the board

01:21:50.640 | So that's a long-winded way of saying I think what you're doing and what I'm doing is important and it's worth doing

01:21:56.420 | I I think you're absolutely right and I think that I think that independent media is so important, especially now and

01:22:03.740 | You're you're starting to see the bigger media conglomerates starting to look at this platform

01:22:11.420 | And starting to ask the question of okay, what can we do to get involved in it?

01:22:16.500 | I mean look and and I like NPR so I I've got no gripes with them

01:22:21.380 | They're entertaining. They're informative NPR had an upfront this year. I

01:22:26.420 | That blew my mind the fact that a mainstream media company is running an advertiser

01:22:35.020 | upfront for their

01:22:38.220 | podcasters for their podcasts that

01:22:40.660 | That's a complete sea change that shows that there is there's

01:22:47.060 | Money, and when there's money there's media which is why being out in front of it

01:22:52.280 | Like you are and like I am and like so many other small time podcasters are I think that's so incredibly

01:23:00.500 | important because

01:23:02.180 | We're running out of time to build traction. All right, so build it now, right?

01:23:06.500 | Yeah, are you are you going to?

01:23:09.340 | Podcast movement I am planning to but I haven't bought a ticket my wife and I are expecting a baby at the end of this month

01:23:15.900 | And I'm doing my schedule. Thank you. I'm keeping my schedule flexible

01:23:20.140 | Just waiting depending on that, you know

01:23:22.620 | Everything could everything could be smooth and easy and it's no problem for me to jump on an airplane or jump in the car and

01:23:27.820 | Head up to Texas or there could be a need for me to be in Florida during that time

01:23:32.180 | So I'm keeping my travel schedule open. Yeah, I'm actually gonna miss podcast movement because I'm doing I run the student

01:23:39.940 | Loan law workshop with Joshua Cohen who I mentioned at the top so that weekend

01:23:45.220 | We're actually in Vegas doing a training so I can't do podcast movement. I will be at FinCon though

01:23:51.340 | I'll be there as well. I'm actually speaking at FinCon. Are you really?

01:23:55.980 | Me so we'll get a chance to meet up there. That'd be awesome. Sounds good to me Joshua. Thanks for

01:24:00.900 | Sitting and talking to me and letting me do this. Yeah, it was a lot of fun real quick as we go

01:24:05.820 | Just tell us about what your show is about what the subjects cover and tell us about your services where people can find you

01:24:11.100 | Do your advertisement here so that people who would like to talk to you can find you easily

01:24:14.940 | Okay, I am a student loan lawyer and consumer bankruptcy attorney operating in the state of California as well as in the state of New

01:24:23.220 | York, my law firm is Shava and Fleischman. You don't need to spell it. You can just go to consumer help central.com

01:24:29.900 | That's my law firm website. My podcast is the student loan show. It's at student loan show.com

01:24:36.700 | I talk about all the same stuff that we talked about today

01:24:39.500 | I really tried my best to break down all of your student loan questions in a way that's

01:24:45.620 | Understandable and that's actionable so that this way you can be in a better financial position with respect to your student loans

01:24:52.780 | Jay, this has been awesome. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Joshua

01:24:55.900 | Pretty cool. I

01:24:59.380 | Told you you'd like it. I know that I'm gonna be going over and

01:25:02.500 | Checking out Jay's show and listening to all of his back catalog of content

01:25:07.320 | That's my plan to make sure that I brush up even my knowledge. I have a responsibility

01:25:11.100 | Given the position that I have with radical personal finance to be an expert in

01:25:15.740 | Well to be at least not more knowledgeable in this area than I am

01:25:18.740 | So I'm gonna use Jay's show to to kind of move me forward in that area

01:25:23.140 | So go over and check it out student loan show calm

01:25:25.380 | Also, check out all of his other sites and work links are in the show notes for today's episode

01:25:29.380 | Share the information in today's show with somebody. I hope that will be

01:25:33.800 | You know help somebody else. I've realized that I've made mistakes and I've probably given bad

01:25:39.420 | Advice to other people so let's help avoid that and let's help people make smarter decisions with their student loans

01:25:46.780 | Thank you all so much for listening for today to closing announcements here. Number one new

01:25:51.980 | Affiliate relationship I've recently established you heard there at the very end of the interview

01:25:57.760 | You heard Jay mention a company called so fi so fi is short for social finance. It's a company that's working to

01:26:05.460 | Change how student loan refinancing works now

01:26:09.680 | You heard Jay talk about some details of when you would want to refinance when you wouldn't want to refinance. I

01:26:15.580 | Recently was researching so fi as a potential affiliate relationship on the show and I did establish an affiliate link with so fi

01:26:23.300 | I plan a full comprehensive show on the topic going through some of the different people for consolidation

01:26:29.660 | I don't have that outline prepared yet where I'm ready to bring it to you

01:26:32.300 | So feel free to wait but or if you would like to potentially consider refinancing some of your loans

01:26:37.920 | If you do some research on so fi won't go into it in any depth right now

01:26:42.300 | But if you do some research on so fi and if they seem to be a good fit for you go to first radical personal finance

01:26:49.520 | comm slash

01:26:51.020 | student loans

01:26:52.420 | And you'll find a link there radical personal finance comm slash student loans

01:26:56.500 | If you use my affiliate link, I get a hundred bucks and you get a hundred bucks that helps me out

01:27:00.740 | Makes a little bit of a commission, which is really useful

01:27:04.860 | Second so check that out more details coming in a future show

01:27:09.060 | Also, thank you so much for each one and every one of you who supports the show directly as a patron if you don't

01:27:14.580 | Why not radical personal finance comm slash patron radical personal finance comm slash

01:27:21.580 | Patron, thank you for listening to today's show. Please subscribe to the podcast with our free mobile app

01:27:28.380 | So you don't miss a single episode

01:27:30.380 | Just search the App Store on your device for radical personal finance and you'll find our free app

01:27:35.820 | If you have received value from the content of this show

01:27:38.900 | Please consider becoming a patron your financial support is how I pay the bills for the show and how I plan to grow our content

01:27:45.500 | You can support the show with as little as a dollar a month or as much as you feel the content is worth

01:27:50.180 | Details are at radical personal finance comm slash patron

01:27:55.180 | If you'd like to contact me personally

01:27:57.020 | My email address is Joshua at radical personal finance comm or connect with the show on twitter at radical PF and at facebook.com

01:28:05.060 | Slash radical personal finance. This show is intended to provide entertainment

01:28:09.340 | education and

01:28:11.700 | Financial enlightenment, but your situation is unique and I cannot deliver any actionable advice without knowing anything about you

01:28:19.660 | Please develop a team of professional advisors who you find to be caring

01:28:24.700 | competent and trustworthy and

01:28:27.220 | Consult them because they are the ones who can understand your specific needs your specific goals and provide

01:28:34.960 | Specific answers to your questions. I've done my absolute best to be clear and accurate in today's show

01:28:40.840 | But I'm one person and I make mistakes if you spot a mistake in something

01:28:45.360 | I've said, please come by the show page and comment so we can all learn together

01:28:49.080 | Until tomorrow. Thanks for being here

RPF0214-Jay_Fleischman_Interview