The LA Kings holiday pack is back the perfect gift for the hockey fan in your life a three-game pack starts at just $159 and includes a holiday blanket buy today and you'll receive an additional game for free Don't miss out visit la kings.com Holiday today. I bring a lot of different types of content to you here on the show and Some days it's fun and it's light and some days it's technical but Very rarely do I succeed in bringing together?

Really awesome technical content presented in a really fun and interesting format. But today today radicals I'm pretty excited. I think i've succeeded If you have student loans, or if you have anybody with student loans, or excuse me, you know anybody with student loans Make sure that before you make any changes or do anything with those student loans you first listen to today's show *Music* Welcome to the radical personal finance podcast, my name is joshua sheets and i'm your host.

Thank you for listening I appreciate your being here today. I've got an education for you. You already got the schooling Now let's have an education on student loans I get excited when I get to learn something and I learned a bunch During the course of conducting today's interview. My guest is jay fleishman.

He's an expert on student loans. You're gonna love this It's a real treat to be able to talk with somebody who's an expert and who can just give you great ideas wrapped up in really actionable In a really actionable way and today's interview is really going to be a treat for you I think you're really going to enjoy it.

You're going to want to grab a pen and paper and this is a show You're going to want to listen to uh more than once if you Have student loans, especially I know that I personally Am have list i'm going to listen to this show A couple of times to make sure that i've fully grasped the information even though I conducted the actual interview But my guest is a man named jay fleishman Jay is an attorney as you'll hear in just a moment and also he hosts a podcast called the student loan show And he reached out to me and offered to come on the show He's a listener of the show and and i'm so glad that I had him on was a great interview Grab a pen grab a piece of paper get ready to take notes and Enjoy learning about some radical strategies that you can use to help you with your student loan Jay welcome to the radical personal finance podcast.

I appreciate you being with me today. Thanks for having me joshua It's nice to have a subject matter expert on the show and I hope to dig a little bit into Issues surrounding student loans, but i'd like to start with just an introduction Would you be willing to share a little bit about your background and history?

And specifically as it relates to your involvement with the topic of student loans Sure, I have been a consumer protection attorney since the end of 1995 uh primarily focusing on the field of consumer bankruptcy protection, so that was really where I I tell people I grew up as a bankruptcy lawyer and I I Did only bankruptcy work for a very very long time and then about four years ago I finally had it up to here with Not knowing what to tell my clients who had student loan problems because for the most part student loans cannot Be resolved through a bankruptcy proceeding and at that point I became uh acquainted with Another attorney by the name of joshua cohen who is a student loan attorney And he practices out of vermont.

He was in connecticut at the time and I sat down and had lunch with him one day and he agreed to spill his secrets to me and I agreed to Do my best work, uh for for people who had student loan problems and ever since then really i've been doing Pretty much entirely student loan resolution Uh federal student loans as well as private student loans on behalf of of ordinary borrowers.

So you have a national practice then Working across the country or specific to one location. I I handle federal student loan resolution nationwide Private student loan resolution. I only handle in new york and california because those are Those loans are primarily going to deal with state-based questions and those are the only two states where i'm admitted to practice law so Let's start with the differences between private and federal student loans pretend that i'm interested in going to college and i've decided i'm going to borrow Some loans to pay for my college tuition bills and i've got offers for private loans And i've got offers for federal loans How would I start to approach that process and what should I be aware of on the back end?

Especially as a prudent consumer a prudent borrower knowing knowing that there's always a risk that I might have some trouble Paying these things off on their pre-agreed upon terms Well federal student loans can only be taken out directly from the u.s Department of education and that's been the case for the past six years In order to be able to get federal student loans.

You need to file your fafsa Fsa, uh anybody who's gone through Undergraduate or graduate school has gone through that process. It's an online form it Enables the government to determine your eligibility for federal financial aid uh from there Um, that's that's really the entry point for it Um federal student loans are always going to be fixed rate They are always going to be at rates that are mandated every year By the federal government so that your federal student loan that you take out for fall semester of 2015 Is the same federal student loan that i'm going to take out for fall semester of 2015 Same rate same term same repayment options um That's always going to be the first Money that you want to take if you're taking student loans the reason for that is First of all, they're fixed rate as I said Second of all federal student loans are not credit based So if you take out a loan for your own education, there is no credit check It doesn't matter if you've got good credit or bad credit You're still going to get the same loan and you're still going to get the same rate in addition federal student loans Come with a variety of repayment options Um, you've got your standard repayment.

That's 10 years. You've got your extended repayment You've got your extended graduated repayment. You've got income-based repayment options. You've got deferment You've got forbearance options. You've got a whole host of different ways that you can structure your repayment Private student loans are no different than any other private bank loan You go in you negotiate a rate with your bank.

Most of them are going to come with variable interest rates Most of them are going to require co-signers because they are all going to be credit based In addition, there are no repayment options in other words if it's A $25,000 loan that you're going to have to pay off within 10 years That's what you've got.

Those are the terms of your loan just like any other bank loan You don't have any income-based repayment options. You don't have any debt forgiveness options loan discharge options um Disability options you've you've got no protections um That are outside what you would normally have in any other bank loan With regard to the private loans are do those face the same?

Lack of ability to discharge in a bankruptcy proceeding as the federal loans do yes, they do and that's really That's really the sticking point um federal student loans because they there are so many repayment options the fact that you can't Discharge them in a bankruptcy proceeding for the most part there There are circumstances where you can discharge a student loan in bankruptcy, but for the most part They're going to survive um, the fact that the federal student loans are going to survive bankruptcy is not As big of a problem given the fact that the federal government offers so many repayment options private student loans No repayment options.

No real ability to discharge those student loans. You're you're getting the worst of both worlds What's the fact pattern that seems to emerge if you were going to look across your client base in the cases that you handle? What would you say is probably the most common scenario that you wind up with where somebody has a lot of student loans?

And now they're facing A litigation event and really struggling what happened in those those cases? What you're dealing with in large measure is people who took out The maximum amount that they were allowed to take in the hopes that they're That their employment was going to be okay that they were going to graduate from school They were going to get their degree or their certification They were going to get a job that was going to pay them enough to repay the student loans Reality is that that's not the case.

That's not the economy that we live in and an undergraduate education Doesn't guarantee you Doesn't guarantee you anything anymore Do you find then that many of your clients are just kind of what i'll call Stereotypical undergraduate graduates they went to school went to college. They spent I don't know $15,000 a year and they got $60,000 student loans and graduated with a traditional bachelor's degree Or do you find that you're dealing with clients who?

Decided to go to law school and quit after year two or decided to go to dentistry school and quit part way through No, no for the most part. It is folks who have gone through an undergraduate education Come out the other end with the expectation that they'd be able to get a job and that that job was going to pay them enough To not only provide for a living wage, but also provide for the ability to repay that student loan debt Very very infrequently.

Have I seen somebody who has begun? a graduate degree and For one reason or another hasn't been able to to complete it it's pretty heartbreaking because when you go back and look I think it seems to be different, but You start researching a little bit. I'll just call it the student loan scandal.

I've read a few I've read a few pieces on it There's some pretty shady stuff that's happened in the dishing out of these loans and i'm not ready to Build a legal case at the moment, but there's at least enough shady stuff that i've read about and it's heartbreaking because I've sat there as a financial planner.

I haven't sat there as a bankruptcy attorney But i've sat there as a financial planner kind of looking at the balance sheet and here i've faced a husband and wife and one of them has My experience sixty thousand dollars for a soft kind of fuzzy undergraduate degree and You know communications or counseling or something and I work in making thirty five thousand dollars a year and that That bachelor's degree I'm all for being a well-educated well-rounded person But speaking on financial terms that bachelor's degree had no impact on their life whatsoever And they wandered in foolishly to this situation.

It's a heartbreaking scenario to be in well sure and I mean think back to when you were 18 years old and going to college. I was Well, no you were 18 And there we go. That's nice You were just a normal 18 year old and your parents probably said you've got to go to college because that's what you do Because you're gonna have a better life.

You're gonna make more money and the world's gonna be far better for you. So your parents Inadvertently Had drunk the kool-aid you drank the kool-aid you came out on the other end of it thinking a degree itself Was going to be your ticket to a better financial situation not Necessarily making a determination in advance of what that degree was going to be, you know, I went into I went into college in 1987 And I went into college and on day one.

I declared a major I was an economics major from day one Just a few weeks after that was when the market crashed and I was still an economics major and that's what I was going to be And nobody told me that You need to make sure that the major that you're going to choose Is going to be something that's got a financial Trajectory or a career trajectory that's going to take you where you where you need to be Because if you're going to be a communications major an english literature major or a history major Unless you've got a plan to go to grad school of some sort That's not really a marketable Set of skills that you're going to walk out with right.

You're just not um And a lot of what's happened in the student loan market you talk about the student loan scam a lot of this happened because of the changes in the bankruptcy code in 2005 up until 2005 you were able to discharge private student loans Just like any other debt any credit card or personal loan or what have you?

in october of 2005 october 17 2005 was when the bankruptcy law was changed and It was amended to roll private student loans in the same way that federal student loans were rolled in now at the same time You had the mortgage market was was still going full swing right I mean everybody was still buying houses But what was happening was the mortgage market was in such a state that most if not all of the prime lending candidates had already had already entered the mortgage market and Because the mortgages were all securitized The investors were starting to dig deeper and deeper and deeper into the subprime Arena to be able to get more people into the system to be able to create more of these securitized trusts to be able to get a continued rate of return When that started running out the Wall Street?

financial institutions realized that they could securitize private student loans the exact same way that they securitized mortgages and Like mortgages there was very little risk of downside in the mortgage market the thinking was There's very little risk of downside because what's the worst that can happen we get the house back That's the worst that can happen and if the value of the house goes down a little bit fine We take a short we take a small loss But we're never gonna lose our shirt that that was the thinking behind Behind the way that the risk was put together For student loans it was very similar.

What's the risk of loss in a private student loan? Well, they don't pay and then we sue and then we get a judgment And we get a garnishment there we freeze bank accounts or we put liens on real property But they can't go into bankruptcy and discharge the obligation so we've got a very small amount of downside That's really when the private student loan market took off because all of the financial institutions were able to securitize those student loans and Be able to create additional investment vehicles for people who are hungry for them So suddenly you had this limitless market now when you've got a limitless market for money Then you turn over and you look at the You look at higher education you look at the standard Colleges and universities, but you also look at the for-profit market the the ITT's the Corinthians the the Phoenix all of those folks and They sit down and they realize well, wait a minute we can increase Our tuition to any amount of money that we want Because we know that a student walking in can always get a private student loan we know that we can part of the sales package is You don't have to worry about any of the money All you have to do is take out a loan and you'll pay it back later when you're making all this money after your graduation So they start increasing their tuition to Ridiculous numbers that's that's when you start seeing this hockey stick of the increase in tuition So one feeds the other that's the great student loan scam and everybody was complicit in it Do you Have do you have an opinion on the involvement?

As far as different people's the involvement in influence over getting that law changed Yeah, I've got a tremendous I'm kind of opening you up kind of just I'm just interested in hearing you talk about it because it really Frustrates me from that perspective, but I'm interested in your perspective on the actual political and legal maneuverings that resulted in that.

Oh my god. Well, the the political maneuverings had been going on for years They've been trying to get the bankruptcy code changed for years. I started practicing I started practicing bankruptcy In December of 1995 and the code had just been changed in 94 So I believe that the most that I Believe that the political landscape started shifting in 1998 that was when they started trying to get the law changed so it took them from 98 to 2005 To get this thing changed It was there was an enormous amount of money behind it financial interests were Tremendous pressure was enormous I'm very active in the National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys.

So I was watching a lot of the the lobbying efforts that NACPA was undertaking to to bring to light the stories of the consumer because the banner that the that the banking that the financial institutions were waving was there there are very few people who are honestly going into bankruptcy and the bankruptcy system is rife with abuse That's that's what they said.

That's what they said it was People who file for bankruptcy are dishonest. They're trying to pull one over on the system. They're deadbeats They're dragging down the rest of the economy. We need to be able to curtail their ability to seek the protection of the bankruptcy court court that was that was what they came out with and It president Clinton fought against it and and he his administration was was tremendous for the consumer and then later administrations and you know, the winds changed And ultimately they were able to get it passed.

Now. The thing is with respect to student loans Nobody was watching that provision except for the consumer bankruptcy attorneys We were the only ones who were watching that specific provision section 523 a 8 of the US Bankruptcy Code we were the only ones that were talking about the change were the only ones that were watching the change and Nobody else was paying attention to it.

The press didn't talk about it. It was impossible to get a story in because it didn't fit with the story of dishonest people filing for bankruptcy because that would have changed the story to Poor students who just want a better life and look at the short end of the stick that they're getting.

I think this is an issue that I was dead wrong on in the past when I was younger I very much had the perspective of you know, I very much had the perspective of the story of people are abusing the bankruptcy code and I don't remember the specific influences of that, but I very strongly had that that perspective and I remember I think I remember even when that law changed in in '05 Kind of being very much in the pro.

Yeah, finally, you know somebody cracking down on this bankruptcy This on all these these these these people these unethical people who are out declaring bankruptcy I had that impression I think I was flat out wrong on that and I've learned over the last 10 years My experience has been I'm sure you know as a financial plan with limited exposure I'm sure that there have been a few I'm sure there are some people who abuse the bankruptcy system But my experience has been most of the people that I've done financial counseling with who have been in that situation Hasn't been through abuse.

It may have been through foolish decisions Oftentimes it was due through I mean and I'd love for you to comment on the primary reasons but things you know medical events unexpected medical events loss of business things like that and when I started studying it and I realized how important there's a strong argument to be made for how important the the Relatively and again correct me in a moment and anything I've gotten wrong here But on how the relatively liberal bankruptcy provisions of the United States as compared to many other countries How important that has been to the growth of economy the ability of an entrepreneur?

especially and an individual to kind of reset and be able to start over again and not be stuck with Charles Dickens version of a debtor's prison for the rest of their life Yeah, it's it bankruptcy is a financial is a financial safety net and It's always been that way or in the modern iteration of the bankruptcy laws it's been a financial safety net that allows you to Take a risk and start a business it allows you to Think beyond where you are and and yeah, there are some people who just make bad financial decisions and Like I said, I've been a bankruptcy lawyer since the end of 1995 there have been there have been those people that come in and sit down in front of me and I just We look at each other and we say yeah, you know, that wasn't the smartest move you've ever made but But that doesn't happen all that often at all and and and this was something that I Didn't realize when I set off on my career path I Didn't realize just how infrequently Bad decision-making comes into play One of the big reasons for people to go into bankruptcy is love it's amazing Family members co-signing for cars for other family members I've I've had more than my fair share of Grandparents were brought into bankruptcy only because they co-signed for a grandchild's automobile first car out and now what we're seeing is a Lot of the people who are being brought down by private student loans our grandparents Because because private student loans again, they're credit based Now if you look at an 18 year old and then you look at their parents well, their parents probably don't have great credit because they've just been through the ringer of 0809 10 11 12 the whole recession They've they've had diminished income they have Diminished value of their assets.

Maybe they went through financial hardship on their own so who do you look to you look to the grandparents you look to the The retiree who's got a stable income who probably owns their house Outright if not darn close to it who isn't making any major financial investments right now There's there's no new money going out.

They're the stable one So the grandchild goes to the grandparent ask them to co-sign the student loan because they're the ones with the best credit in the family Then the kid comes out of school I I have a client in my office who has a hundred and forty six thousand dollars in private student loans Wow that she co-signed for her granddaughter who had hoped it to you know live in the American Dream and Now my client is is on on the other side of the V as I say she's been dragged into court by National Collegiate Student Loan Trust who is The large or the largest private student loan trust out there being sued for $146,000 Wow that's That's a tough As a tough situation to be in yeah And so I want to talk about some specific advice and then if we have time And it's back into even that situation that you're in with that with that client But let's start kind of a little bit farther back and try to help people avoid avoid Let's try to help people avoid that and the comment I have to throw in one of my one of my favorite Bible verses on the subject Proverbs on co-signing I just I love this because I love the language of it but I'll read it my child if you co-sign a loan for a friend or Guarantee the debt of someone you hardly know if you've trapped yourself by your agreement and are caught by what you said Quick get out of it If you possibly can you've placed yourself at your friends mercy now swallow your pride go and beg to have your name erased So in my mind, that's a good place to start for a co-signing that's from from Proverbs 6 6 But I just had to throw that in because it's one of my it's one of the simplest things to avoid but yet that Heart of compassion that starts to tug at our heartstrings of saying I really love this person I want them to get a good education.

I want them to have a nice car I want them to be able to buy this house their life is gonna be Improved but I tell you the number at least my observation the number of times it works out Well are far fewer many fewer than the times it works out poorly Yeah, let's start at the beginning and assume that I have gone to school I have made some I've taken out student loans and I've gotten out of school I've got some student loans.

I've got a you know, I've got a car payment. I've got a mortgage I've got ten thousand bucks of credit card debt. So Median income doing all right, you know, my wife and I are both working But then all of a sudden we find out that we're having a kid and then fast-forward a few months She has a difficult pregnancy and she's on bedrest.

She loses her job. We have a child maybe the child has some special needs and so she's not gonna be able to work and now I'm kind of stuck and The month is more than the money and I I'm still sort of making it but I recognize that Things are gonna go wrong here What if you had the opportunity to give somebody some advice at that situation where the plan?

Isn't working out quite as well as it was supposed to be and we're we can see that we're gonna start to have some problems Knowing what you know, what would you want to proactively do in that situation? Well talk about stacking the deck against somebody in that fact. I had to give a little bit You gotta make it difficult, right?

I'm waiting for you to tell me that they're tied to the train tracks And you know the train is approaching I I I'm actually going to back out From that fact pattern because I'm I I'm gonna tell you what to do the day you graduate from college Okay, because I like that even better.

There's there's one thing that you can do on that day You know when you graduate from college you get a six-month Window until you have to start paying your student loans, right? Yes federal student loans. You get us you get a six-month window You don't have to take that six-month window You can elect to put yourself into repayment immediately now Bear with me When you bring yourself into repayment The first thing you do for your federal student loans is you get yourself into one of the income based repayment plans now for new graduates It is different than for people who graduated some time ago, and I'll I'll review the two the two The two options for new graduates.

It's called pay as you earn or new IBR It allows you to set your student loan payments at ten percent of your disposable adjusted gross income And Disposable adjusted gross income is household adjusted gross income from the bottom line of your tax return Post post retirement contributions. Yep bottom line.

I'm on last class. Okay. Yep last line at the 1040 minus 150 percent of the poverty level for a household of your size Okay, so if now Now if you think about it when you come out of college What is more than likely going to be your adjusted gross income for the year immediately prior?

It's gonna be really low isn't it right? It's gonna be either You know, maybe you'll maybe you work part-time Maybe you made minimum wage maybe a little over that maybe it's zero So if you put yourself into IBR or pay as you earn that day You're paying for for new loans pays you earn is 10% old IBR is 15% 10% of zero is zero Exactly.

You can be in repayment at zero dollars a month That's right. Yep, and you recertify once a year so at the end That why do you want to get yourself into one of these income based repayment options because for newer loans the 10% Repayment option at the end of 20 years of repayment The unpaid balance is discharged for old loans 25 years the unpaid balance is discharged We're talking only about federal loans here, right only federal loans and is discharged without regard to the size of the balance without regard to the size of the balance now just a caveat as Of right now the way that the regs are written That is going to trigger a 1099 but but number one That's 20 or 25 years down the road and number two.

You only pay taxes on On Debt settlement income to the extent that you're solvent when you get the 1099 So if you're in solvent 20 or 25 years from now, and it's not that hard to be in solvent If you're planning 20 or 25 years in advance You may not even have to pay taxes, but that's that's kicking the can very far down the road In addition if you come out of school and you work in public service federal government state government municipal government or a 501 c3 not-for-profit regardless of the kind of work that you do after 120 timely monthly payments The unpaid balance is forgiven no 1099 and it's only 10 years Okay, okay, so here's the scenario so my show is called the radical personal finance So here's my plan I've decided that I need to build a social network that is strong So I'm going to choose to go to an Ivy League school.

Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of I don't have a lot of Background I'm gonna max out the federal loan system with as many loans as I can get from the federal loan system I'm gonna go ahead and set up my Ivy League school and I'm gonna focus on building my social network once I get out I'm going to establish my own 501 c3 to To you know be the change that I wish to see in the world And it's gonna take me at least 10 years to build this thing and because I'm good at living cheap I don't really need to even though I'm the executive director.

I don't need to bring that much out of it as salary towards me which keeps my my household adjusted gross income Relatively low and I am gonna go ahead and since I am the executive director I am gonna go ahead and put in place a pension plan And establish that and I'm gonna defer the maximum contribution to that pension plan for the first 10 years of running that Organization while we get things going because we believe that it's in the best interest of all of our constituents that the employees of the Of the nonprofit not-for-profit organization be able to defer the maximum amount of money their retirement accounts It's my plan working So long as you are employed full-time by that 501 c3 Sounds like a great plan to me.

I like it. This is good So keep going. Yeah, absolutely. So that that's your federal money and By the way, you should be maxing your federal money If you're good, like I said at the beginning if you're gonna take money take the federal first It's the cheapest it gives you the most options and what's the current interest rate on federal student loans at the moment?

They just announced Hang on. They just announced what the rate was going to be for July This ballpark is fine. No, I want to give you the real number The real number is 1.29% for direct subsidized and 5.84 for unsubsidized. Let me explain the difference between subsidized and Unsubsidized it's important Subsidized student loans the federal government pays the interest while you are in school Unsubsidized student loans Interest accrues from the minute that you take out the loan So if you take out a five thousand dollar loan, you're gonna owe more than five thousand dollars on graduation day If it's unsubsidized if it's subsidized on graduation day, you'll owe five thousand dollars Okay, so there's there's that difference But as you can see the rates are fairly low and they're fixed once you take out the loan The interest rate remains the same until it is paid off For the federal loans for the private student loans.

They are all variable every note that I've seen has The interest rate adjusting on a monthly basis You have no income based repayment options You have no discharge options. You've got no forgiveness options what that means is your first money as between federal or private if you can bring your IBR payment down or Your pays you earn payment down every other dollar Goes to pay the private student loans Because you want to get rid of them as quickly as you can right now If you can't make the private student loan payment, let's talk about that What happens if you can't make the payment, right?

Don't make partial payments doesn't help you it doesn't Make the lender like you the lender isn't a person. They're an institution Okay, if you can't make the full payment Then you can't make the full payment private student loans as I said earlier There is no difference between a private student loan and a bank loan or credit card.

So what happens is You miss a payment you go into default After 180 days they charge off the account, which is just an accounting term. It doesn't mean that you don't owe the money Once they charge off the account You go to a collection agency. You go to a second tier collection agency and then ultimately you find yourself with a lawyer contacting you now and This this very state by state There is a statute of limitations a time limitation for the private student lender to file legal action against you once you go into default and That amount of time is going to vary state by state So you want to talk to somebody you want to talk to a lawyer in your state to find out how much time they have?

Not every private student loan is going to file a lawsuit against you Some of them will sometimes they will sometimes they won't there's no way of knowing but if you can't make the payments You can't make the payments right you know at that stage of the game what I tell my clients if they come to me and they're Three years past you on their private student loans and they say I want to I want to settle the student loan.

I want to deal with the collection agency or I want to start making payments again because Because I I don't want it past you on my on my credit anymore What I tell my clients is at that point the damage is already done your credit score is already shot you've already got the collection on your credit report and until such time as Somebody files legal action against you if you're that far past due You're gonna get a better settlement deal in litigation than you will through a regular collections process So wait for litigation to start on their end Is that what you're saying?

Yeah If you're that far behind and it's not easily caught up then go ahead and just wait for litigation and then go ahead get Representation and and go and fight it there. Yeah, absolutely You're dealing because you're dealing with a lawyer instead of dealing with a collection agency. There's a very different mindset And as I tell my clients all the time when you're just in collections Everything is voluntary You ask them for documentation or information whether they give it to you or not.

It's all voluntary You ask them for a settlement whether they agree to it or not. It's all voluntary on the flip side. They ask you for money It's all voluntary You bring it into court suddenly you've got discovery. You've got disclosure rules. You've got rules of evidence they've got to be able to prove a whole host of things in order to get over every legal hurdle to prove the case and to prove the amount of money that you owe and That they're even collecting in a timely fashion and when you're in When you're in that litigation the collection agency's attorney is there Obviously if you have assets then I would assume their goal is to attach your assets But is there more likely goal considering you probably don't have money.

You probably had something happen Is there more likely goal garnishment of wages? Is that what they're working towards? Is their goal of the successful lawsuit against you? They're working towards all of it. Some states don't allow wage garnishment some states really Yeah, some states don't have wage garnishment. I believe I believe if memory serves correctly that Texas does not have wage garnishment There are some states that have unlimited homestead, which means that they cannot put a lien against your real estate Florida has unlimited homestead.

Texas has unlimited homestead other states have limited homesteads In some states a judgment is automatically a lien against real estate in other states They need to jump through some extra hoops to be able to get the lien put on some states have higher wage garnishment some states in in in community property states a Judgment can be executed against all community property assets.

What that means is if you're married in the state of California What's yours is mine and what's mine is yours which means that my wife's income Is in the absence of a prenuptial or postnuptial agreement my wife's income is community property So if I owe money on a private student loan They sue me they get a judgment against me.

They can execute against my wife's wages. They can garnish my wife's paycheck I don't it's you know Be a lot simple, I guess it's always a lot simpler if you pay him up pay it pay things off early When you get into this world you know, I used to be leery of attorneys and then I had a client who was a bankruptcy attorney and I started talking to him about some of these details and from then on I learned what I didn't know and from then on I Just said cut and I would send so many people I said you're in trouble here called call the bankruptcy attorney And there is a reason you want good representation to come out ahead in these situations yeah, and and what's really interesting is because and and we talked earlier about those Securitization scheme and and how the assets and how the debts get transferred and poured over into these investment vehicles What we're finding is that the paperwork is just as shoddy in student loans as it was in the mortgage market which which means that it's never a slam-dunk case on either side of the fence if if you're defending the lawsuit and Either you know enough about the lay of the land or your attorney knows enough about the lay of the land you really have a lot of leverage to be able to Negotiate some pretty favorable settlements in some situations Because it's it's not a slam-dunk case on the part of the lenders Are you getting have you had any cases where because of paperwork?

Irregularities will use the politically correct term that you've had a complete discharge of the debt I have had situations where What what what will happen is I'll get to the point where I've done full discovery on the case And I've recognized that there are holes in the case and that they don't have they don't have a slam-dunk whatsoever I'll go back to my client let my client know but my clients position is nine times out of ten going to be Well, even if there's a hole in their case they could still conceivably win right Because they could it it all comes down to a judge and it all comes down to it what an individual human being is going to rule whether or not those holes in their case and whether or not the lapse in chain of ownership of that debt is Enough to defeat the case on its face my clients to a person have all at that juncture said to me I Don't want to take the risk.

I'm not willing to take any risk whatsoever But we have enough Leverage that we can settle it far more aggressively than might otherwise be the case So I I took a really long time to say no I I have not gotten to the point where I have done a complete discharge of that private student loan in a litigation context because Every one of my clients has recognized that Sometimes it doesn't matter who's wrong or right?

Sometimes it just matters whether the judge had a bad cup of coffee that morning, right? Yeah, and that makes sense I mean when you get if you can negotiate an aggressive settlement at some point in time the the reality is the borrower borrowed the money and that also Satisfies some of the the moral obligation to repay and if you can negotiate a fair settlement Where both parties interests are protected then I I can understand why most I can understand why most people would Would make that choice back to the deferral I want to ask a question when you're originally talking about The decision to make right when you graduate from college and I'm glad that you shared that Because that's not something that I've ever known to advise people, but I I like that advice Is there if you don't take advantage of that deferral?

Is there any way to save that and for example use that six month deferral in the future if you? Ran into financial stress or anything like that there there are There are financial hardship forbearance is that that you can engage in Depending upon depending on based upon just like okay.

We saved that six month Scenario that's a one-day thing no no that's user to lose it, but but again bear in mind if if Let's say you lose your job and Now you've got no income and you were making $75,000 a year before your student loan payment was $480 a month you lose your job What do you do if you're on?

Income based repayment or pays you earn you pick up the phone and you call your servicer And you say I just lost my job. I want to recertify my IBR now and You can read and you can reformulate The amount of money that's due on a monthly basis without using a forbearance or deferment I've got it.

Yeah, go ahead good if you've got a zero dollar income then You ratchet your payments down to 10% of zero dollars right okay, right? So that what you shared it's incredibly valuable, and I want to manage the time of our interview here I've got a question that came in from a listener, but I want to make sure that if you have for example additional Suggestions in the same line that you started to answer my question from here's what you do from college That you that you continue with that.

Do you have an additional? Recommend do you have additional recommendations for the scenario? I outlined or for that college student who's gone ahead and followed that initial advice in Give additional recommendations along that line I do to to to a limited extent if you've got private student loans You want to be able to go back to the lender and find out what their procedure?

for a co-borrower release is a lot of lenders offer the ability to get a co-borrower release under certain situations under certain circumstances for example Sally may one of the Sally May loans has the ability to get your co-borrower release if you've made two years worth of regular payments and You're financially able to handle the loan on your own now of course that's gonna Bring a lot of other things into play for example your your income level and your assets and things like that but you want to try to set yourself up for that because Ideally, I'm sure you'd like to let grandma off the hook right if you can I'm sure grandma would like that too So that's really the next thing that that I would recommend Unfortunately, there's very little that can be done with respect to a private student loan so the best advice is Take as much money as you possibly can and pay that thing down as quickly as you can And and I know that that's that's advice.

That's non advice But that's really the best that that anybody's gonna be able to tell you to do that having been said once you once you secure employment Once you've gotten on your on your feet financially Assuming that you're making your private student loan payments in a timely manner There are places where you can refinance your private student loans now that didn't exist even two or three years ago There are companies like SoFi is is is a big one that's in the market But there are tons of companies out there that are now helping people refinance their private student loans So if you're if you're making those payments on a timely basis That's gonna make you that much more attractive as a borrower for refinance on the student loan debt Even potentially even companies like The I'm blanking prosper prosper and lending Club.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like that even even if you could get an unsecured loan through that system and maybe it would be better in some regards if the terms could be Negotiated to be better than the private student loan at least that way you transition that debt away from a non bankruptable debt to a bankrupt Double debt which you know my in my mind is a win Absolutely, there's not a big as long as there's not a big cost a big big additional interest cost to do so sure, absolutely and there there have been people who have paid off their private student loans with their credit cards using a zero balance interest rate it just and Whether that's a smart move or a non smart move To your point it takes it out of the non discharge ability provision at the bankruptcy code for student loans I'd like to go into Your area of expertise with regard to somebody is in bankruptcy or is is in distress what could be done?

But I want to lead into it with this question And I'd like you to answer this question and then give any other generalized advice around it This is a question from a list and I actually answered it on a show a few weeks ago I didn't focus specifically on the management of the student loan issue I focused on answering the investment question But even after the facts on my audience wrote in so Joshua you missed it you missed you here were a couple of ideas that You didn't cover so here's the here's the the short question from a listener listener said I read It says right now.

I need help with the crazy student loan issue I'm currently paying almost $600 a month for a $102,000 student loan at 7% a couple of key things My credit is shot due to a bankruptcy filed last year the loan is with the Nelnet through the Department of Education The question is should I pay down the loan or find an investment that will pay me $600 to offset the payment?

Right now the $600 is preventing me from moving forward on anything financial I'm expecting a lump sum of money in February like $60,000 and I'd love to invest it where I can earn six hundred dollars or more a month to offset the payment any ideas How would you answer that within the context of managing the student loan intelligently?

Oh And I remember the question and I remember the follow-up that was Are you listening to the show? Yeah, that was okay was 191. I think right right right when you did the follow-up and and the point that your listener brought up about the The tax benefit of the $600 and the tax deductibility of the of the student loan.

I thought was a useful one with respect to first first of all, we know that this is a federal student loan, so we know that Income based repayment is an option at least in theory So that's the first thing that I would look at to bring down that payment.

That's the first thing that I would look at as to whether or not we Now the question is should I pay down the student loan using the windfall or should I invest it? That was the question I answered that I don't know in this scenario My advice was pay down the loan because the risk the the type of investment that would return Six just the question of okay.

I got $60,000. You would need a 12% consistent monthly dividend essentially to be able to pay off the loan under those payments and if you calculate the Amount of time it would take to pay off the loan At $600 a month at $102,000 student loan at 7% you're looking at like 60 years of repayment So my observation was don't pay in this situation I would focus a hundred percent on paying down the student loan if you have a high income and I just put the $60,000 against it or if you have a bad income a low income then I'd invest the $60,000 potentially just keep the loan at minimum payments and focus on building up a high income Maybe starting a business buying a subway franchise, etc something like that to try to Generate enough capital where you can throw off a hundred thousand dollars of profit in a few years and wipe the thing out But as far as actually managing the loan, do you do you have any intelligent ideas that could help him?

I Wouldn't pay down the loan. Okay The reason why I wouldn't pay down the loan it will there are a couple of reasons first of all I would look into income based repayment and pays you earn first because that's going to bring that loan payment in line with your income Second of all, you've got the tax deductibility of at least a portion of the money that you're paying On your student loan annually, so there's there's that but third of all and this is this is the main reason Why I wouldn't pay down that student loan You just came out of bankruptcy So your credit shot that that to me is That's that's the key part of that entire question If you just came out of bankruptcy and your credit is shot if you run into a financial event of any sort at this stage of the game, you've got no means of financing that and So that windfall at least a portion of that windfall I would think that you'd want to have that available to you because if you need the money You're not gonna have any other way of borrowing it, right?

Because you just came out of bankruptcy So you want to have at least some of that windfall available in addition to your point that well if there's a financial Event then you want to know that you think that you've minimized the risk with respect to the student loan Remember if there's a financial event you can ratchet your payment down on those student loans income based repayment and pay as you earn change the conversation with respect to federal loans from how much do you owe and It changes it to how much is your payment?

Because suddenly you don't care about how much you owe quite as much as you used to Because you've got that you've those payments are far more Malleable than they were in the old days The 7% interest rate is that a higher rate because of the bankruptcy event No, no federal student loan interest rates Very year by year based upon when you took the loan out But once you take the loan out it is set in stone for the remaining Life of that loan the only time that your federal student loan interest rate changes is if you have multiple loans at multiple interest rates And you consolidate through the US Department of Education direct loan program in that case the interest rate Becomes a weighted average of the interest rates of the loans that are consolidated Do you have advice regarding consolidating loans versus not consolidating loans You get one bite at the apple for consolidation of your federal student loans You only get one bite at the apple.

It is a saving grace if you are ever in default it is a quick and dirty way of getting yourself out of default and Out of any enforcement mechanisms that the US Department of Education has against Defaulted student loan borrowers that's administrative wage offset tax refund offset Regular litigation legal action, so I don't like consolidating federal student loans Because I like keeping it in my back pocket.

I never knew that that's a useful tip Yep So if you are I you know I've got three loans I've been paying them, but I had a hiccup. I got laid off again my wife got pregnant now. She's back Okay, we can pick it up. We've been in default So you're saying that I've been in behind four months if I go ahead and consolidate Does that improve that situation?

Because it wipes the default or what how does it help me? Okay, let's talk about default Federal student loans go into default when they are 270 days past you okay? That's default anything prior to that is delinquency, so let's let's say that you're 370 days past you because I want you in default for the purposes of this conversation There are two ways of getting your federal student loans out of default one is rehabilitation The other is consolidation you get one bite at the apple for each one Okay, so you can consolidate your your defaulted federal student loans, and you're out of default in 30 to 90 days somewhere in that range okay, or You can rehabilitate which is also one bite at the apple it involves making nine Monthly payments within a 10 month period of time To the debt collector that is handling the federal student loan at the end of the nine months At the end of the nine payments rather because it could conceivably be ten months at the end of the nine payments Your loan comes out of default and goes back into active status The fact that you were in default on your federal student loan gets taken off of your credit report Nice like that yeah, you only get one bite at the apple for that also in Terms of because the next question becomes well how much would those monthly payments be the monthly payments are the?

reasonable and affordable monthly payments reasonable and affordable under current regulations are Deemed to be the amount that the payment would be if you were in IBR or pay as you earn so let's say you're in default and You are unemployed still unemployed That is the best time to rehabilitate your student loan because under reasonable and affordable It's you can't have a zero dollar a month Rehabilitation payment it's got to be at least five bucks a month So if you're unemployed You can rehabilitate your student loans at five bucks a month make nine monthly payments of five bucks $45 in total Brings you out of default into active repayment you elect IBR or pay as you earn You're unemployed, and you're making payments at zero dollars a month You can actually do that and I've done it Yeah, I like I gotta go listen to your entire podcast I like this at you and I you and I have brains that probably work similarly like I like these little angles that you've been Able to come up with you know my my knowledge of student loans is is extremely limited And so I'm glad to have some of these ideas that you've been sharing with us super useful.

I'm happy to help I'm happy to happy to share the information with your listeners Joshua Are there any other broad based pieces of advice that you would have for somebody in? Various stages of problems in addition to what you've covered so far I have one piece of advice for student loan borrowers and That is to stay away from the companies that you see online Or on late-night TV these student loan validation companies or student loan counselors There have been more than a few of them that the government has taken down in recent months Because they are scamming people out of money when it comes to federal student loans You can do your own IBR You can do your own pay as you earn they're both two-page forms you can get them directly from the US Department of Education you can call your servicer and Most of the time they'll do that.

They'll do it for you over the phone You can rehabilitate yours your defaulted federal student loan on your own and it doesn't cost you any money You can do a federal student loan consolidation on your own doesn't cost you any money You don't have to spend money to do it There are some people who will come to me for example and say look I know I don't need anybody to do it I know I don't have to spend any money on it at all, but I don't want the hassle I don't have the time.

I'm afraid of making a mistake. Can I hire you to do it? Yeah, I'm happy to do it but the amount of money that I charge is a It's it's a fraction because I recognize that my value is in my knowledge Not necessarily in Typing out a two-page form and in fact, I do everything humanly possible to dissuade people from hiring me for that Because I gotta tell you I think it's a waste of money The value comes in in dealing with anybody When it's a private student loan and you're in default That's when there's real value in hiring somebody to do something for you That person should always be a lawyer because if you're going into litigation Only a lawyer can represent you and it ideally should be somebody who's local to you Because if if you're being hauled into your local court and your lawyer isn't local You've got to start asking questions about how that lawyer is going to effectively manage Your your defense, right?

You made an easy transition for me I was just gonna ask you how do bankruptcy attorneys and If you're working specifically with with student loan Litigation, how do you guys set your fees and how can someone expect that to actually work as far as the financial? Benefit, you know that your client for example.

Oh $140,000. How do you set your fees? I do not set my fees based upon the amount of money that they owe. Okay, I That's and that's universal for the most part for federal student loan stuff That's all flat fee and it tends to be Again incredibly low It's I do it more as a public service than anything else For litigation defense that also tends to be a flat fee.

Obviously, it's more expensive than than doing an IBR application I Personally set it as a flat fee because I know that my clients Need to have some certainty in how much they're getting into It it it just doesn't make sense Arch a client on an hourly basis as far as I'm concerned and that's based upon what my normal hourly basis is I Know that other lawyers do it on an hourly basis There are some lawyers that do it flat fee different different strokes for different folks.

I think that the most important thing for for a borrower to look at is Who the person is what kind of experience they have what kind of training they have? What organizations they're active members of not just I'm a member of ABC Bar Association, but what are they active in?

You know, what sort of continuing education are they undertaking? Spend some time. That's that's what the internet is for spend some time Getting to know your potential service providers before you even pick up the phone and talk to somebody Two final questions one continuing the theme of the debt help Companies, this is an area of financial advice that I've really struggled to know what the right answer is and I've just kind of been forced to go based and kind of parrot the answer That I've heard from some other people, but if somebody's in a situation that's broader than student loans They may be that may or may not include student loan defaults, but it's broader than student loans and they're struggling And they're trying to decide.

Okay. I need some help. I need some consumer credit counseling Do you have any? Perspective you can give on the layout of the of the landscape, you know For example National Consumer Credit Counseling affiliate I was at is that the name their affiliate of the national organization or the private kind of where are the gotchas in that?

Business basically is what I'm asking. Oh Goodness there. There are so few of these companies that I like And and it is so unfortunate as Far as credit counseling is concerned credit counselors will typically deal with only limited types of debts For example the one company that I tend to send people to does work with credit card debts and now they deal with now they deal with student loans, but They're not going to be able to deal with say Repossessions or foreclosure avoidance, you know That's that's as close as I can really tell you You want a company that's been around for a while.

You want a company that ideally is a member of NFCC which is the National Foundation for credit counseling Anybody that my rule of thumb is any company that advertises on Television after 10 o'clock at night or during what would normally be business hours. Don't call them Just don't That's my rule of thumb and and it it tends to serve my clients pretty well There are a lot of fly-by-night companies a lot of a lot of the And I'm using my air quotes here the credit counseling companies became loan modification companies during the during the the mortgage meltdown or short-sale companies and now they've become student loan companies and you know, they're it's the same people over and over and over again and they just They slap a new ribbon on it money attracts good people and it attracts scum and differentiating Between them is always a constant challenge for us.

No question about it. No question about it. Your best bet is really to talk to some the first person that anybody should talk to is somebody who's got a license in something whether it's a certified financial planner like you are or a lawyer like I am or a CPA or an enrolled agent because they're likely going to know somebody who is reputable as Opposed to just shooting blind on this stuff Last question is actually a business question and it has to do with the impact of your podcast on your legal practice I'm not sure how long you've been doing your podcast, but it seems like you've got quite a number of episodes here and I'm interested to know what the Impact has been of actually creating your show and how it's helped or hurt your business Here's something that you don't know about me.

I Started podcasting in 2005 really? Yeah, I had a show called the dad podcast I was the dad podcast or the debt podcast. Yeah, okay. See you BT got a podcast And it ran from the beginning of 2005 Until I want to say March 2006 And it was designed Really for me more than anybody else's means for me to try to understand The new bankruptcy law that was being rolled out in 2005 And so I figured that the best way to learn about it was to talk about it.

So and at that time Podcasting did enormous things for my practice. It helped me secure speaking engagements it drove Not necessarily Direct clients, but it drove a lot of referrals from other professionals And that was in the baby days of podcasting. I mean it it was the wild wild frontier Now the student loan show I do the student loan show and I'm launching another show with a colleague of mine at consumer ledger, which is a personal finance site that I was Running on and off with with another consumer bankruptcy attorney But the student loan show really has done a lot for my practice actually again more through referrals and more through speaking engagements and more through just generally elevating Elevating my profile in the community.

I Think that podcasting is phenomenal. I do my favorite thing about your site You've got this thing right on your site says have a question You put your name your email enter your question and you have a drop-down means has answered on the show And then you have the I want a one-on-one analysis This is brilliant because it allows potential Clients of yours to ask you their question and you can respond number one You get a great you go to gate you get you get a great capture form here That is low that is low risk because I'm just submitting it for the show You get consistent material for your show to be able to answer these questions and obviously you have their email address So if you don't want answered on the show You can write out a paragraph back to them and even if they do or don't click one-on-one analysis You're still getting the lead either way you can respond and you can help them and then if they're a right fit for your service You can and your help, you know You might just send them to go fill out this form and is what you need Which is simple and easy for you to do or if you say I can help you and here's what you should consider or here's How you do it yourself?

This is a brilliant setup here for you as far as very friendly consumer friendly marketing. I think this is awesome Everybody should be doing this Every personal service provider, that's what I'm convinced. I've got a couple of attorney friends of mine I've been trying to convince them to start a podcast and for many reasons But when you get into such a specialized area and more and more, I think we all need to be practicing I'm kind of doing the hard road here trying to be the generalist and it shows when I answer questions Incompletely because of my lack of knowledge in a specialist area But I'm trying to kind of be the broad based strokes here and see if this works this works but as far as an actual service provider, this is I Just want everyone to go to studentloanshow.com and you know, listen to the show if you have an interest in learning more But at least just look at this have a question format because this is some of the most consumer friendly Marketing I can imagine doing and I hope it's bringing you clients like gangbusters.

It is. Thank you. I Enjoy online marketing I do And if you look at my law firm website, which is consumer help central.com. I did that one entirely on my own I enjoy Putting things together that make sense for my potential clients and you're doing hard work. You're doing this five days a week You're doing every day.

That's but that's bananas, you know, that is but you know what? So here's a specific example as Far as why I'm doing it. I For years. I always loved listening to financial radio and the biggest influence was Dave Ramsey And he really encouraged me and I owe him a real debt of gratitude one of these days.

I'm gonna meet him I really want to interview him. I just haven't haven't asked for it yet But one of these days I want to meet him and express that to him personally But as I've gone on even the thing that you said about consolidating student loans That is different than Dave's advice was and I made a mistake now I were perceived looking back at my own student loans because what Dave had told me was Consolidate your student loans.

And so I dutifully at that phase of my life I dutifully went out and I had taken out I had three student loans through Sally Mae for college and I went ahead and consolidated them and then I was working because Dave said to consolidate them and I didn't you know I hadn't even graduated yet, but I just kind of did it right away even while I was still in school and Thankfully, I'm it worked out fine I worked like like a crazy man my senior year in college and actually wrote a check to Sally Mae two weeks before I Graduated and paid them all off before I graduated which was one of my personal financial goals But little things when I go back and start to dig into subjects more deeply little things Matter and what just the just the tips that you gave there of number one about consolidation and number two about The the discussion of go ahead and set this up on an income based repayment plan.

Those tips are gonna save several dozen people in this audience a Tremendous amount of money and when we have the time in this kind of format to get into these things In detail and some of them then the primary impact not most mainstream consumers are not going to listen to my show It's too in-depth It's too much But the hardcore people will and then that allows me to multiply the information because then you know listener Ed and listener Jane They'll take that and their their niece or their nephew is getting ready to say Hey, listen, let me teach you a little financial tip here that you need to apply to your situation and we can accomplish just an incredible Change so I'm just kind of creating the I'm kind of creating the job I want to have but I also it's it's kind of that mixture of mission and you Know it's in it for their stuff in it for me, too I'm building a business that I want to have them building a lifestyle business but there's also a little bit of impact and when we get to the point of You know that even back to the student loan scam the crap that's been pulled in the past with all that marketing I'm I don't want that to happen again, and it'll you know Bush administration did that one, you know Clinton, whatever Obama administration, but there be another administration there be another thing and we're little by little with independent media We're slowly breaking the information logjam and if you look at it it's got people running scared because it's harder and harder for the banksters to control the narrative of You know when you've got five companies that own all the media media Brands then that's pretty easy for those companies to manipulate the narrative in a way that benefits them But we've got an ability to change that and that change is gonna lead to good things all all across the board So that's a long-winded way of saying I think what you're doing and what I'm doing is important and it's worth doing I I think you're absolutely right and I think that I think that independent media is so important, especially now and You're you're starting to see the bigger media conglomerates starting to look at this platform And starting to ask the question of okay, what can we do to get involved in it?

I mean look and and I like NPR so I I've got no gripes with them They're entertaining. They're informative NPR had an upfront this year. I That blew my mind the fact that a mainstream media company is running an advertiser upfront for their podcasters for their podcasts that That's a complete sea change that shows that there is there's Money, and when there's money there's media which is why being out in front of it Like you are and like I am and like so many other small time podcasters are I think that's so incredibly important because We're running out of time to build traction.

All right, so build it now, right? Yeah, are you are you going to? Podcast movement I am planning to but I haven't bought a ticket my wife and I are expecting a baby at the end of this month And I'm doing my schedule. Thank you. I'm keeping my schedule flexible Just waiting depending on that, you know Everything could everything could be smooth and easy and it's no problem for me to jump on an airplane or jump in the car and Head up to Texas or there could be a need for me to be in Florida during that time So I'm keeping my travel schedule open.

Yeah, I'm actually gonna miss podcast movement because I'm doing I run the student Loan law workshop with Joshua Cohen who I mentioned at the top so that weekend We're actually in Vegas doing a training so I can't do podcast movement. I will be at FinCon though I'll be there as well.

I'm actually speaking at FinCon. Are you really? Me so we'll get a chance to meet up there. That'd be awesome. Sounds good to me Joshua. Thanks for Sitting and talking to me and letting me do this. Yeah, it was a lot of fun real quick as we go Just tell us about what your show is about what the subjects cover and tell us about your services where people can find you Do your advertisement here so that people who would like to talk to you can find you easily Okay, I am a student loan lawyer and consumer bankruptcy attorney operating in the state of California as well as in the state of New York, my law firm is Shava and Fleischman.

You don't need to spell it. You can just go to consumer help central.com That's my law firm website. My podcast is the student loan show. It's at student loan show.com I talk about all the same stuff that we talked about today I really tried my best to break down all of your student loan questions in a way that's Understandable and that's actionable so that this way you can be in a better financial position with respect to your student loans Jay, this has been awesome.

Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Joshua Pretty cool. I Told you you'd like it. I know that I'm gonna be going over and Checking out Jay's show and listening to all of his back catalog of content That's my plan to make sure that I brush up even my knowledge.

I have a responsibility Given the position that I have with radical personal finance to be an expert in Well to be at least not more knowledgeable in this area than I am So I'm gonna use Jay's show to to kind of move me forward in that area So go over and check it out student loan show calm Also, check out all of his other sites and work links are in the show notes for today's episode Share the information in today's show with somebody.

I hope that will be You know help somebody else. I've realized that I've made mistakes and I've probably given bad Advice to other people so let's help avoid that and let's help people make smarter decisions with their student loans Thank you all so much for listening for today to closing announcements here.

Number one new Affiliate relationship I've recently established you heard there at the very end of the interview You heard Jay mention a company called so fi so fi is short for social finance. It's a company that's working to Change how student loan refinancing works now You heard Jay talk about some details of when you would want to refinance when you wouldn't want to refinance.

I Recently was researching so fi as a potential affiliate relationship on the show and I did establish an affiliate link with so fi I plan a full comprehensive show on the topic going through some of the different people for consolidation I don't have that outline prepared yet where I'm ready to bring it to you So feel free to wait but or if you would like to potentially consider refinancing some of your loans If you do some research on so fi won't go into it in any depth right now But if you do some research on so fi and if they seem to be a good fit for you go to first radical personal finance comm slash student loans And you'll find a link there radical personal finance comm slash student loans If you use my affiliate link, I get a hundred bucks and you get a hundred bucks that helps me out Makes a little bit of a commission, which is really useful Second so check that out more details coming in a future show Also, thank you so much for each one and every one of you who supports the show directly as a patron if you don't Why not radical personal finance comm slash patron radical personal finance comm slash Patron, thank you for listening to today's show.

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I've done my absolute best to be clear and accurate in today's show But I'm one person and I make mistakes if you spot a mistake in something I've said, please come by the show page and comment so we can all learn together Until tomorrow. Thanks for being here