Josh Findley on Working Undercover for Homeland Security & Saving Sex Trafficking Victims

00:00:00.000 | (slow hip hop music)

00:00:03.080 | - Welcome to another episode of Curious Mike.

00:00:10.860 | I'm here with my guy.

00:00:11.780 | Why don't you introduce yourself to the people?

00:00:13.780 | - My name's Josh Findley.

00:00:15.820 | I'm a retired special agent from Homeland Security.

00:00:18.580 | - Got you.

00:00:19.500 | And the way this interview came about

00:00:21.780 | is actually kind of unique.

00:00:23.140 | You ran into my brother on a plane

00:00:26.100 | and I guess you guys had the most interesting conversation

00:00:29.420 | and he texted me right when he landed.

00:00:31.180 | He texted our family group chat and was like,

00:00:32.980 | "I just met the most interesting guy.

00:00:34.560 | "He had the craziest stories.

00:00:36.280 | "Like Mike, you need to get him on your podcast."

00:00:38.180 | So how did you, so you and my brother just

00:00:40.700 | were sitting next to each other on the airplane?

00:00:41.900 | How'd that go?

00:00:42.740 | - Yeah, I was flying from Portland to Washington, D.C.

00:00:47.340 | with a layover in Chicago and Jontae's team

00:00:50.980 | had just played in Portland the night before

00:00:53.340 | and they were flying to Chicago

00:00:54.980 | and he was sitting next to me

00:00:56.540 | and I just recently retired.

00:00:58.940 | When we were on the plane, I'd probably been

00:01:01.860 | less than two weeks that I'd retired

00:01:03.980 | and it's kind of nice that I get to talk about stuff now

00:01:07.460 | 'cause when you're working for the government,

00:01:10.520 | there's a lot of stuff you can't talk about

00:01:12.460 | and so we started talking and I was telling him some stories

00:01:17.460 | and he was asking me questions and he was like,

00:01:20.920 | "Dude, my brother just had this girl

00:01:24.000 | "who's a survivor of human trafficking on his podcast.

00:01:28.120 | "I think you'd be great for that."

00:01:30.060 | And so we talked about that and I was like,

00:01:32.880 | "Yeah, dude, I'd be happy to do it."

00:01:35.020 | And I had no clue that you were his brother.

00:01:37.780 | So all I knew him was as Jontae at that point.

00:01:41.620 | - Right, that's awesome.

00:01:42.980 | Nah, I was super excited to talk to you.

00:01:45.460 | For the people listening and for honestly me,

00:01:47.780 | what exactly is Homeland Security?

00:01:49.300 | I know I've heard the name but what exactly is that job?

00:01:53.140 | - So there's, it would be similar

00:01:56.660 | to what you would think as an FBI agent, right?

00:01:58.940 | So after 2001, 9/11, the government reorganized

00:02:03.940 | and created the Department of Homeland Security in 2003.

00:02:08.700 | So it has many different factions.

00:02:10.140 | The Secret Service is under Homeland Security,

00:02:12.400 | the Border Patrol, Customs,

00:02:15.140 | all those are under Homeland Security.

00:02:18.220 | Well, prior to 2003, there had been special agents

00:02:22.060 | for US Customs, there'd been special agents for immigration,

00:02:25.700 | there'd been all these different special agents

00:02:27.380 | in Homeland Security.

00:02:28.820 | So they brought them together to be one group

00:02:31.540 | which eventually became Homeland Security Investigations.

00:02:35.340 | And it brought together all those authorities

00:02:38.680 | to investigate crimes.

00:02:40.180 | And so it has one of the broadest set of authorities

00:02:42.740 | to investigate crimes in the US.

00:02:44.620 | - How did you find yourself wanting

00:02:47.420 | to be in that line of work?

00:02:48.960 | - So ever since I was a kid,

00:02:50.380 | I thought I wanted to be an FBI agent.

00:02:53.500 | I ended up joining the Army, became a military policeman.

00:02:58.180 | And then I switched over to something that's called

00:03:01.340 | the Army Criminal Investigation Division,

00:03:03.820 | Army CID that does felony investigations,

00:03:06.480 | which then kind of led me

00:03:08.700 | into being a civilian federal agent.

00:03:10.500 | I started off with the Treasury Department

00:03:13.260 | and then switched over to Homeland Security.

00:03:15.780 | And then that's when I started working

00:03:19.340 | with child exploitation cases.

00:03:21.460 | And it's interesting, everybody's like,

00:03:24.540 | why would Homeland Security ever investigate

00:03:27.940 | child exploitation?

00:03:30.420 | And I'll just clarify this up front that,

00:03:34.700 | so what was referred to as child pornography

00:03:39.700 | has been kind of reclassified

00:03:42.060 | as child sexual abuse material,

00:03:44.420 | as it is better for the morale of survivors of exploitation.

00:03:49.420 | And so if I say CSAM or any of those kinds of things

00:03:57.360 | that I'm talking about what you or many of your followers

00:04:01.900 | would think of as child pornography, would be CSAM.

00:04:05.700 | So historically, CSAM would come into the United States

00:04:10.700 | through the mail.

00:04:12.380 | And so it would get intercepted by U.S. Customs Service.

00:04:15.380 | And it would be usually worked with Postal Service

00:04:18.300 | and Customs Service.

00:04:19.640 | And so that's how Homeland Security

00:04:23.020 | kind of became a leader in CSAM investigations.

00:04:26.940 | - Talk about your first story

00:04:30.700 | where you really realized like,

00:04:32.860 | man, this world is straight up evil.

00:04:35.180 | Well, actually, before we get into that,

00:04:36.980 | I wanna talk about when you decide to be a Homeland Security

00:04:41.860 | and be in the line of work,

00:04:43.140 | what is the things that you have to like sign

00:04:46.580 | or the things that you have to say,

00:04:48.540 | I'm not gonna speak on like,

00:04:50.580 | 'cause you said this is one of your first interviews

00:04:52.020 | since you've retired.

00:04:52.860 | - It is.

00:04:53.680 | - Is there things that you are not allowed to like,

00:04:56.020 | what's the--

00:04:56.980 | - So there are things that I had to sign

00:04:59.540 | a non-disclosure agreement about

00:05:01.540 | that are ongoing criminal investigations

00:05:05.260 | that I was involved in prior to my retirement.

00:05:08.220 | I'm allowed to talk about things

00:05:09.540 | that have gone through the court system

00:05:12.100 | and stuff like that.

00:05:13.140 | Then I was involved in some undercover things

00:05:18.740 | that if I were to talk about them,

00:05:21.140 | I think it would put myself and my family in jeopardy,

00:05:23.460 | so I wouldn't talk about those.

00:05:25.060 | - Right, wow.

00:05:26.220 | Yeah, I wanna get into some of that later.

00:05:27.860 | But yeah, talk about that first story

00:05:29.260 | where you were like, man, like this job is insane,

00:05:32.220 | but also the world that I live in like needs this.

00:05:36.260 | The world that I live in is evil.

00:05:38.340 | - And I can remember the first time

00:05:43.340 | that my eyes were completely open to it.

00:05:45.980 | And this was a young girl.

00:05:49.740 | She was 10 and 11.

00:05:51.500 | She was sexually abused by her father.

00:05:54.980 | It was recorded, put out on the internet.

00:05:57.980 | Some detectives in Canada found these images

00:06:00.780 | and were able to use clues in the background of the images

00:06:03.660 | like a cup and a sweatshirt and those kind of things,

00:06:07.320 | and they found out that she was located

00:06:08.820 | in Northwest, Pacific Northwest.

00:06:12.180 | And so we started looking for her there.

00:06:14.380 | So we searched for her for two years,

00:06:16.660 | and finally we were able to figure out who she was

00:06:20.460 | based largely on the fact that she had reported sex abuse

00:06:26.300 | by her father to a local police department.

00:06:28.460 | He had fled the country and he was featured on the media,

00:06:33.860 | and that's kinda how we ended up

00:06:35.380 | linking those things together.

00:06:37.100 | But through that process,

00:06:39.460 | when a victim is identified of child sexual abuse material,

00:06:45.580 | they are allowed to be notified

00:06:49.300 | by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children

00:06:53.380 | every time someone is caught with their image.

00:06:55.960 | Now, not every police department,

00:06:57.720 | not every federal agency,

00:06:58.880 | not everybody submits all their images

00:07:01.080 | to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children,

00:07:04.940 | but a lot of 'em do.

00:07:07.600 | And so after we were able to identify her,

00:07:12.600 | I started calculating how many times

00:07:16.080 | someone was caught with her image.

00:07:18.740 | So the images were submitted.

00:07:20.100 | Someone was caught possessing her images

00:07:22.180 | of her being raped as a 10-year-old.

00:07:24.600 | It was six times a day, every four hours.

00:07:30.140 | So if you can imagine being a 16 or 17-year-old girl,

00:07:35.140 | having the worst moments of your life,

00:07:37.240 | being raped by your father,

00:07:38.700 | and knowing that men are being caught, on the average,

00:07:44.500 | of every four hours.

00:07:47.940 | - Yeah.

00:07:48.780 | - To walk out into a grocery store,

00:07:50.500 | to walk into an elevator with three grown men,

00:07:53.460 | and wonder which one of those has seen you.

00:07:57.020 | And that's the first time that,

00:07:59.460 | when I did that calculation,

00:08:01.260 | it's the first time it really opened my eyes

00:08:02.740 | to how screwed up this is.

00:08:04.900 | - Yeah, that fetish, or whatever you want to call it,

00:08:09.180 | for that to be something that grown men would want to consume

00:08:12.300 | is really, honestly, strange.

00:08:14.620 | Have you come to any conclusions

00:08:16.140 | on why that has even become a thing in our society?

00:08:20.180 | What feeds that desire for grown men,

00:08:23.860 | not only to want to abuse young women,

00:08:28.060 | but to even consume it?

00:08:29.620 | Like, have you guys figured that out at all?

00:08:32.140 | - So, I think there's two general issues.

00:08:36.860 | One is pornography and pornography addictions.

00:08:39.620 | - Yeah.

00:08:40.460 | - I know you've had a recent guest that talked about that,

00:08:42.340 | and you talked about it with her,

00:08:43.860 | that once someone has seen a certain type of pornography

00:08:47.580 | for so long, then they seek something new,

00:08:49.940 | something different, and those kind of things,

00:08:53.100 | or something taboo, something that's wrong.

00:08:56.860 | So, that's one way.

00:08:58.180 | And then pedophilia is the other way,

00:09:00.380 | that men who are just absolutely attracted to children,

00:09:05.020 | and that with the onset of the internet,

00:09:10.020 | giving people the ability to be anonymous

00:09:13.300 | and hang out in chat rooms and have conversations

00:09:16.220 | that they would never have in public,

00:09:18.060 | like, made it spread like wildfire.

00:09:22.540 | - So, was this the main area of focus

00:09:25.060 | that you and your team were involved in?

00:09:28.340 | - Yeah.

00:09:29.180 | So, for about 20 years, I was focused

00:09:32.300 | on child sexual abuse investigations

00:09:35.020 | on a day-to-day basis.

00:09:38.620 | - Which, you know, the message that I wanna get across

00:09:41.900 | to people, and the reason I've had multiple guests

00:09:44.060 | on here speaking on this specific issue

00:09:46.900 | is because it may not seem like it's the biggest issue

00:09:50.500 | in our world today, but almost a million children

00:09:53.380 | go missing a year, and no one knows.

00:09:55.780 | No one really speaks on it.

00:09:57.580 | I don't know if it's not on the news

00:10:00.020 | because it's a sensitive subject.

00:10:02.900 | I don't know if it's not on the news

00:10:03.980 | because the same people that run these big media outlets

00:10:07.820 | are also the same people that are sometimes involved

00:10:10.220 | in these pedophilia rings.

00:10:11.220 | I don't know, but the reason that I think it's important

00:10:13.580 | to speak on is because, man, this is happening

00:10:15.620 | every single day.

00:10:16.460 | Like, you know, you can leave your kid

00:10:19.340 | in a grocery store for five seconds.

00:10:21.740 | They can get snatched up, you know?

00:10:23.060 | So I think it's just bringing awareness to it.

00:10:26.020 | I know you have a lot of things to speak on,

00:10:28.820 | and we're gonna speak on a lot of things in this interview,

00:10:31.140 | but, you know, working undercover like that,

00:10:34.500 | were there ever any scary situations,

00:10:36.980 | or was it scary at all being undercover like that?

00:10:40.740 | You said there's been things that you didn't speak on

00:10:43.100 | because you were worried about the safety of your family.

00:10:47.740 | You know, speak on that whole thing a little bit.

00:10:50.660 | - So I did a lot of undercover stuff,

00:10:52.500 | and I wanna circle back with you at some point

00:10:54.540 | about, like, kids getting abducted.

00:10:56.380 | But, so throughout my career,

00:11:00.140 | I think my first time I did an undercover deal

00:11:03.060 | was in 1996, like a drug deal.

00:11:05.480 | I have done undercover things into white supremacy groups,

00:11:11.940 | selling arms overseas.

00:11:16.040 | Into different organizations, I've sold children,

00:11:21.040 | I've bought children, all those things.

00:11:24.600 | So when it comes to, like, the fringe organizations,

00:11:30.580 | that's, like, where I wouldn't wanna talk about it

00:11:34.220 | because, you know, those people have long memories.

00:11:37.900 | - Wow, okay, you talk about, so undercover,

00:11:41.100 | a lot of times you are obviously enacting

00:11:45.100 | like you're a part of something that you're not,

00:11:46.780 | and that's how you catch the people.

00:11:48.380 | What is the process of buying or selling a child?

00:11:51.500 | - So, like, purchasing a child,

00:11:54.660 | like some of your previous guests have talked about,

00:11:57.820 | it's almost as easy as doing online stuff.

00:12:00.300 | And so to be able to go online

00:12:04.180 | and look through these different sites

00:12:06.500 | that advertise daily, you know,

00:12:10.540 | new to your area, this much an hour,

00:12:12.660 | these are the services, I mean, it's super easy to find.

00:12:16.740 | And we would go on there, we would comb those websites,

00:12:20.380 | looking for phone numbers, looking for pictures,

00:12:22.900 | all those kind of things where we could determine

00:12:24.900 | if there was a child, and we'd set up a date

00:12:27.100 | and then try to arrest the trafficker.

00:12:30.500 | We did one of those operations and we were able,

00:12:33.260 | and it wasn't designed as, like,

00:12:35.460 | a prostitution thing to arrest the girl.

00:12:37.660 | It was to identify her and get her into victim services

00:12:40.940 | and those kind of things.

00:12:42.500 | And then to try to follow up and arrest the traffickers.

00:12:46.220 | And there's one operation I remember,

00:12:50.420 | it was one of the first ones I did,

00:12:51.980 | that we identified, I think it's eight people in one night.

00:12:56.220 | And of those eight people,

00:12:58.740 | six of them were previously documented

00:13:04.660 | survivors of child sex abuse.

00:13:06.820 | So you see how it feeds into each other.

00:13:11.100 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:12.820 | - And then--

00:13:13.660 | - So you're saying the same people

00:13:14.580 | that were participating in this type of stuff,

00:13:18.220 | this same thing happened to them when they were younger?

00:13:20.620 | - No, no, no, sorry, the victims that we identified,

00:13:23.140 | eight of 'em, the people who find themselves

00:13:25.380 | being victimized by human traffickers

00:13:27.420 | often are the survivors of child sex abuse.

00:13:30.380 | - Oh, got you.

00:13:32.300 | Wow, that's crazy.

00:13:34.380 | So some of the more mainstream kind of things

00:13:39.580 | that have hit the news in terms of that whole

00:13:43.020 | child trafficking has been the Wayfair thing

00:13:45.540 | and the Pizzagate thing, so-called conspiracy theories.

00:13:49.220 | You as an undercover guy,

00:13:51.580 | how plausible are those mega things

00:13:55.180 | where they're selling a piece of furniture

00:13:57.860 | but it's disguised as a child, things like that?

00:14:00.420 | - So, and I hope I'm not offensive to you at all,

00:14:04.300 | but it's complete bullshit and it wastes our time.

00:14:08.380 | Because Congressional people hear that,

00:14:11.300 | news media hears that, and then our agency

00:14:16.300 | gets all these requests dumped into like,

00:14:18.580 | why aren't you doing more about this,

00:14:19.980 | why aren't you doing more about that?

00:14:21.300 | And we're answering these questions

00:14:23.260 | instead of actually going out and doing our job

00:14:26.420 | and finding kids that are being abused.

00:14:28.540 | Because unfortunately, like I was saying,

00:14:32.740 | most of the time, this isn't an abduction off the street.

00:14:38.300 | That, if, do you know who Elizabeth Smart is?

00:14:43.300 | Have you heard of that story?

00:14:46.820 | - I haven't.

00:14:47.660 | - So, it was in the late '90s, early 2000s,

00:14:51.460 | girl kidnapped from her house.

00:14:52.960 | For years, one of the top stories in the media,

00:14:58.900 | a girl being kidnapped in Utah.

00:15:01.520 | - Yeah.

00:15:02.980 | - If there's a girl in Denver today

00:15:05.460 | who got snatched out of a grocery store,

00:15:08.540 | what would the local police's response be?

00:15:11.140 | - I don't know, you tell me.

00:15:13.420 | - It would be helicopters, there'd be news media.

00:15:16.060 | - You think?

00:15:16.900 | - Every cop in, around, like,

00:15:19.740 | would be searching for this kid.

00:15:21.260 | - So, what about the Amber Alerts on your phone?

00:15:23.580 | - So, most of the Amber Alerts on your phone

00:15:25.900 | are parental abductions.

00:15:27.700 | So, there's a disagreement between parents

00:15:30.060 | and one parent who shouldn't have the kid takes the child.

00:15:32.740 | - Gotcha.

00:15:33.740 | - That's probably 90% of the Amber Alerts.

00:15:36.040 | If you look at missing kids in, like,

00:15:39.580 | the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children,

00:15:42.500 | probably 98% of them are runaways.

00:15:44.680 | And the perception that kids are getting,

00:15:50.860 | you know, trafficked on Wayfair and stuff like that,

00:15:54.180 | it diminishes our capacity to respond

00:15:56.860 | to what I believe is the true problem,

00:15:59.720 | which is kids are getting abused by their father,

00:16:04.720 | their priest, their coach, their, that,

00:16:07.800 | and it sets them into a downward spiral of drug addiction,

00:16:12.480 | going into being trafficked.

00:16:14.480 | Like, you know, Kat described a traumatic home life

00:16:18.580 | led her into seeking things in other places,

00:16:21.480 | and she got conned in by a trafficker,

00:16:27.080 | and that's 99% of the problem.

00:16:30.280 | - Okay, so now let's, yeah,

00:16:31.480 | let's circle back a little bit to the,

00:16:33.380 | just the statistics that come out

00:16:36.260 | about all the missing children, you know,

00:16:38.920 | year after year, not only in the United States,

00:16:41.200 | but worldwide.

00:16:42.100 | So, you kind of are making a sound right now,

00:16:46.260 | like, if that does happen, it's such an anomaly,

00:16:48.440 | and, like, the police react, like, so, like, forcefully,

00:16:52.520 | and, you know, they get their, you know,

00:16:53.880 | the helicopters and things,

00:16:54.800 | but, like, when I'm looking up these stats,

00:16:56.760 | it seems like it's happening a lot more

00:16:58.680 | than people are giving it credit for.

00:17:00.420 | What are your thoughts on that?

00:17:01.680 | - So, I think that statistics drive money,

00:17:06.680 | and you can make a statistic say what you want it to say,

00:17:12.560 | and as far as kids not getting abducted off the streets,

00:17:18.360 | I'm specifically talking about the US,

00:17:21.160 | and most civilized countries,

00:17:23.060 | that, in a heartbeat,

00:17:25.460 | there would be an enormous law enforcement response.

00:17:28.820 | Like, I don't know if you have any other friends or cops,

00:17:30.780 | just ask 'em, what would happen

00:17:32.420 | if a kid got reported abducted, not missing?

00:17:36.100 | So, so many kids are reported missing

00:17:38.860 | because they didn't come home that night,

00:17:41.480 | and a lot of times, that's never cleared off the books

00:17:45.820 | if they come back in three days,

00:17:47.420 | 'cause the parent doesn't report,

00:17:48.740 | oh, you know, my child ran away,

00:17:50.940 | and so then, that's a statistic for a missing child,

00:17:54.060 | 'cause it never got resolved.

00:17:55.680 | And so, people look for statistics because,

00:17:59.380 | and unfortunately, there's a lot of money that flows to it

00:18:03.380 | because of people like you who are genuinely concerned

00:18:07.260 | and wanna do something about it,

00:18:09.020 | and when people are genuinely concerned

00:18:11.220 | and they wanna contribute,

00:18:12.760 | then there's always people who come in

00:18:14.780 | and start these charities or non-profits,

00:18:17.620 | and they spin out new statistics to raise money.

00:18:21.700 | And so, you just have to be really careful

00:18:24.220 | on what organizations you try to donate to or support

00:18:29.220 | that are actually, I think,

00:18:32.140 | combating the real problems of child exploitation.

00:18:36.040 | - Gotcha.

00:18:37.080 | Sound of Freedom was a movie that came out recently,

00:18:39.460 | and it really caught a lot of people's attention.

00:18:42.940 | There was a positive and negative response to that movie.

00:18:47.200 | How kind of accurate is that,

00:18:50.200 | and what were your kind of thoughts

00:18:51.940 | on that movie as a whole?

00:18:54.260 | - So, my thoughts on the movie as a whole was

00:18:56.740 | it was a good movie.

00:18:57.740 | Having worked the job,

00:19:00.720 | I was able to see that it was a movie.

00:19:04.060 | You know what I mean?

00:19:04.900 | - Yeah.

00:19:05.740 | - If you watched a movie about your career last year

00:19:09.980 | and winning a championship,

00:19:11.640 | there'd be a lot of things that were left out,

00:19:13.360 | there'd be some things that maybe were changed a little bit

00:19:16.940 | or those kind of things.

00:19:18.680 | One of the things that I wish they had done better

00:19:21.960 | in the movie was that they portrayed Tim Ballard,

00:19:26.600 | who was an HSI agent.

00:19:28.360 | They portrayed him as doing every step

00:19:32.060 | of the investigations.

00:19:33.640 | And we are so dependent on being a part of a team

00:19:38.640 | that there's forensic interview specialists

00:19:41.760 | that interview children.

00:19:43.120 | There are analysts that run things for you.

00:19:46.300 | There are interview people.

00:19:48.540 | There are polygraph people.

00:19:50.100 | All these different parts of the team

00:19:51.940 | that work really, really well together.

00:19:54.460 | And for the purposes of that movie,

00:19:57.060 | the producers made it look like

00:19:59.900 | he did every one of those steps.

00:20:01.540 | - He was the hero and he was the only hero.

00:20:04.020 | - Yeah, and he did great things.

00:20:06.140 | And his non-profit, Operation Underground Railroad,

00:20:11.140 | is still out there today,

00:20:12.540 | still trying to help kids all over the world.

00:20:16.200 | I really endorse their mission

00:20:20.720 | and what they're trying to do.

00:20:22.280 | But at the end of the day, that was a movie.

00:20:27.220 | It was based on a true story.

00:20:29.120 | And I wish Tim all the luck in the world.

00:20:34.360 | And I know he's left Operation Underground Railroad now

00:20:37.340 | and is doing some new things.

00:20:39.040 | But yeah, I thought it was a great movie.

00:20:42.360 | It brought awareness.

00:20:43.680 | But it did tend to focus on

00:20:47.160 | that child abduction end of things,

00:20:49.520 | where the real problem is kids getting abused

00:20:54.520 | by people they know every day.

00:20:56.920 | - Yeah, people they trust.

00:20:59.200 | - Yes.

00:21:00.040 | - Teachers, coaches, like you said.

00:21:01.520 | Even cousins, uncles.

00:21:03.800 | - Yes, I've had all of those.

00:21:05.660 | - Dang.

00:21:09.640 | So you're under Homeland Security.

00:21:14.040 | I was recently watching an interview

00:21:16.480 | by Joe Rogan, actually.

00:21:17.960 | And he was talking about how Homeland Security

00:21:22.080 | is the team that invaded Diddy's house.

00:21:24.800 | - Yes.

00:21:26.960 | - Do you have any knowledge on why they went

00:21:29.920 | to his house and invaded it?

00:21:31.120 | And do you have any knowledge on that situation?

00:21:33.680 | - I have no direct knowledge of the investigation.

00:21:36.800 | So I have not taken a part in it.

00:21:39.480 | And if I had, I would not be able to say it

00:21:42.760 | because it's an ongoing criminal investigation.

00:21:44.760 | - Yeah, right.

00:21:45.600 | - But what I can say is that I believe

00:21:50.240 | it involved sex trafficking of minors.

00:21:53.660 | That the reason it seemed like an overwhelming response

00:21:59.640 | to a search warrant, like why you bring,

00:22:02.300 | deals with the people he has around protecting him

00:22:08.280 | and his property, their criminal histories,

00:22:11.280 | things like that.

00:22:12.320 | So if you have a security guard that has

00:22:15.680 | a previous homicide conviction and he's armed,

00:22:18.760 | well, the cops are gonna treat the search warrant

00:22:21.400 | in a different way.

00:22:22.360 | I can tell you that the level of probable cause

00:22:28.200 | that would go into getting the higher executives

00:22:32.740 | at Homeland Security had to sign off on that.

00:22:35.000 | Judge had to sign off on that.

00:22:37.480 | The prosecutor's office had to sign off on that.

00:22:40.560 | And knowing that it would be someone

00:22:43.440 | that's gonna be high profile,

00:22:45.320 | it's gonna be able to hire 20 defense attorneys

00:22:47.720 | to try to pick everything apart,

00:22:49.480 | that it would have to be a pretty solid affidavit

00:22:53.320 | and allegation.

00:22:54.160 | - For them to even go after him like that.

00:22:55.760 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:22:56.880 | - So the idea of Hollywood and kind of these people

00:23:01.080 | with these pedophilia rings and things like that,

00:23:06.000 | and that that truly takes place.

00:23:08.200 | You got the Jeffrey Epstein case.

00:23:09.880 | What are your thoughts on kind of the,

00:23:11.680 | 'cause that also is kind of a conspiracy

00:23:13.600 | that people think that kind of these higher up people

00:23:15.640 | are involved in these pedophilia rings.

00:23:17.680 | And then you got the Jeffrey Epstein case

00:23:19.440 | and kind of the defendants in his case,

00:23:22.240 | which were a lot of really well-known individuals

00:23:25.360 | and things like that.

00:23:26.200 | Like, what are your thoughts on that?

00:23:27.800 | - Oh, there's corruption.

00:23:29.120 | Like, I have no doubt about that.

00:23:31.280 | That case is just wrought with problems.

00:23:35.440 | Like, I had no involvement in it, none whatsoever, but--

00:23:40.440 | - But you've seen enough to know that that's--

00:23:44.400 | - Yeah, it stinks.

00:23:45.960 | Like, yeah.

00:23:46.800 | My question is this.

00:23:48.920 | How do you charge Jelaine Maxwell in human trafficking

00:23:54.640 | when you can't prove who she trafficked a human to?

00:23:59.920 | You have to have an end user, right?

00:24:02.240 | To follow this, right?

00:24:03.880 | So if I was gonna sell drugs,

00:24:06.360 | you would have to prove that I sold them to a person, right?

00:24:08.720 | So if I'm gonna traffic a person,

00:24:10.040 | you'd have to prove that I sold it to a person.

00:24:11.800 | - Yeah.

00:24:13.400 | - What in any documents came out

00:24:15.000 | of who these kids were trafficked to?

00:24:17.760 | - So you're saying you think it's false?

00:24:19.600 | - No, I think they absolutely trafficked kids.

00:24:22.360 | And I think that there's--

00:24:24.800 | - Oh, you're saying the people on the receiving end,

00:24:27.840 | that's the people we need to be going after as well?

00:24:29.400 | - Yes, yes, the people who are having sex

00:24:32.040 | with the 14-year-olds or the 16-year-olds,

00:24:34.440 | paying for it, flying to an island.

00:24:36.440 | Like, to cross out of our country

00:24:40.080 | with the intent to have sex with a child is a felony.

00:24:42.960 | You're gonna do 10 years.

00:24:44.120 | - Yeah.

00:24:44.960 | - Like, do you, is the idea

00:24:46.840 | that there's these very powerful people,

00:24:48.600 | whether it's politicians,

00:24:49.720 | whether it's Hollywood movie stars,

00:24:53.280 | or, you know, different people of that caliber

00:24:56.640 | that are really into this type of stuff,

00:24:58.840 | do you think that to be the case?

00:25:01.840 | - I don't think so.

00:25:04.280 | So I think that there is, like, true pedophilia,

00:25:09.120 | so, is prepubescent, right?

00:25:12.200 | That's 11 or under.

00:25:13.760 | And I think most of the people in the Epstein case,

00:25:16.680 | the P. Diddy case, you know, whatever,

00:25:19.320 | are probably gonna be in that 14 to 18 range,

00:25:23.560 | which is more called hemophilia,

00:25:25.400 | that somebody after the onset of puberty,

00:25:28.640 | but still a child.

00:25:30.400 | So I think that's, in those circles,

00:25:32.680 | what the problem, or what their focus is,

00:25:35.840 | what they're trying to get access to.

00:25:38.360 | And I think in the actual pedophilia,

00:25:44.840 | the raping of children is a completely different thing,

00:25:47.240 | and I don't think there are big rings

00:25:49.440 | where that's happening,

00:25:50.360 | where people are trafficking in two-year-olds,

00:25:53.600 | or one-month-olds, or those kind of things.

00:25:56.520 | - Right.

00:25:57.640 | Okay, so, 'cause I actually, you know,

00:26:00.320 | just being around, I kind of think the opposite.

00:26:03.280 | I kind of think there are a lot of people

00:26:05.880 | that you would never suspect,

00:26:07.280 | and they're powerful people that have a great background,

00:26:09.680 | and they will come off as super clean-cut or whatever,

00:26:12.640 | but on the side, they're involved in some crazy things.

00:26:15.520 | Ryan Garcia, the boxer, recently came out

00:26:17.800 | and talked about how the bohemian growth,

00:26:22.800 | I don't know if you know what that is.

00:26:23.680 | - I don't.

00:26:24.960 | - It's basically, yeah,

00:26:26.200 | he said he was brought into the woods and forced to watch.

00:26:31.200 | You know, some people might call him crazy, whatever.

00:26:33.840 | The bohemian growth is a real place,

00:26:35.640 | and kind of forced to watch, you know,

00:26:37.200 | people partaking, you know, this type of stuff with children,

00:26:41.680 | and he said himself, he was raped as a young child.

00:26:45.080 | But I think it's interesting,

00:26:48.400 | talking to someone who works certain of these cases.

00:26:52.280 | And I don't know if it's that these people

00:26:53.840 | are so high up and so protected

00:26:56.640 | that they get away with it,

00:26:57.800 | and you know, the people that are kind of messy with it,

00:27:00.200 | and the ones that are kind of like,

00:27:02.680 | leave too many things behind are the ones that get caught.

00:27:05.280 | But I kind of think it goes a lot higher

00:27:07.240 | and deeper than people suspect.

00:27:09.360 | - I think that, you know,

00:27:14.360 | absolute power corrupts absolutely, right?

00:27:17.480 | - Yeah.

00:27:18.320 | - And I think that powerful people

00:27:23.360 | corrupt other powerful people.

00:27:25.880 | I think, you know, the Epstein thing

00:27:27.720 | was probably an intelligence operation

00:27:31.360 | that he collected evidence of this,

00:27:36.920 | and it was, you know,

00:27:38.320 | given to different intelligence agencies

00:27:40.120 | to further their mission,

00:27:41.440 | and to further push people in power

00:27:44.840 | to make decisions that were beneficial to 'em.

00:27:47.120 | I absolutely believe that.

00:27:48.520 | - Do you think Epstein,

00:27:50.700 | is the story that he killed himself?

00:27:52.360 | - Yeah, that's the story.

00:27:53.560 | - Do you think that's what happened?

00:27:54.640 | - No.

00:27:55.480 | - Do you think he knew too much, and they killed him?

00:27:57.520 | - Yeah, there's too many anomalies there.

00:28:01.480 | You know, one of your most high-profile people

00:28:04.640 | would be arrested, right?

00:28:06.040 | Then you look at Dr. Michael Baden,

00:28:09.680 | looking at the autopsy,

00:28:11.120 | that it wasn't a typical hanging.

00:28:13.120 | I've worked suicides, I've worked hangings.

00:28:14.960 | I know what ligature marks are.

00:28:16.580 | Like, I know all those things.

00:28:18.760 | It's not gonna be on your, you know,

00:28:20.320 | high-owed bone, and it's,

00:28:23.740 | the cameras didn't work that night.

00:28:27.200 | Both guards fell asleep.

00:28:28.560 | Like, how many coincidences before you're like,

00:28:32.000 | probably wasn't a coincidence?

00:28:33.440 | - Yeah.

00:28:34.680 | So, what do you think you need to,

00:28:37.160 | like, how much do you need to know

00:28:39.380 | for them to come get you?

00:28:41.120 | I know there's been individuals in the past

00:28:43.480 | that just know too much,

00:28:44.760 | and it's a risk that they'll expose too much,

00:28:46.940 | so they'll just kinda shut up.

00:28:49.520 | First of all, who does the shutting up,

00:28:51.840 | and what are the type of stuff that you need to, like,

00:28:55.720 | know for them to even go to those lengths?

00:28:58.800 | - I have absolutely no clue.

00:29:00.200 | I can tell you it's definitely not

00:29:01.760 | the men and women of Homeland Security Investigations

00:29:04.280 | that we're out there to do our jobs every day,

00:29:07.280 | and to help people.

00:29:08.120 | - Well, I'm thinking more it's, like,

00:29:09.200 | the people that are involved higher up.

00:29:10.560 | Like, I don't know if it's, like, government,

00:29:13.520 | like, I don't know if it's, like,

00:29:16.800 | the same type of people that are involved

00:29:18.880 | that would, but I know, like you said,

00:29:20.920 | if you know too much, your life could be in danger.

00:29:22.760 | Like, you said, like, even you were scared at times,

00:29:25.640 | you know, and you didn't wanna reveal too much

00:29:27.760 | when you were working the job for fear of your life.

00:29:29.960 | Like, who would you be afraid of?

00:29:32.360 | - So, in undercover situations, it's criminal organizations,

00:29:35.880 | and I'll start this off by saying

00:29:39.240 | I never worked an undercover job

00:29:42.040 | on a motorcycle gang in my whole life.

00:29:44.840 | I know several people who have,

00:29:46.880 | but if that gets out, that the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang

00:29:49.680 | figures out that you were an undercover,

00:29:51.560 | like, they're gonna hurt you and your family.

00:29:53.600 | - Yeah. - So.

00:29:54.440 | - Wow.

00:29:56.240 | That's crazy.

00:29:58.080 | Man, I got a lot of questions just about, like,

00:30:02.640 | what it is being an undercover kinda agent.

00:30:06.200 | What's, like, one of your biggest kinda stories?

00:30:08.440 | I wanna hear, like, a specific story

00:30:10.120 | of where, like, you had to pretend to be someone,

00:30:14.480 | and you, like, tell me one of your big stories.

00:30:17.680 | - I don't know, do you wanna hear something

00:30:18.880 | related to, like, human trafficking, or?

00:30:20.400 | - Anything, anything that's kinda like a crazy story

00:30:23.240 | as someone who is now retired that you can,

00:30:26.880 | yeah, talk about.

00:30:28.280 | - So, I have one case where a guy met a couple online,

00:30:31.880 | and he was in an online chat room, and he found a couple,

00:30:34.760 | or a guy who was looking to purchase access

00:30:38.560 | to have sex with a kid.

00:30:40.120 | And so, he started chatting with the guy,

00:30:43.680 | and in our agency, you can chat online undercover,

00:30:47.240 | but in order to actually physically meet,

00:30:49.080 | you have to be certified, you have to go through training,

00:30:51.000 | all those kinda things.

00:30:52.120 | So, he passed it off to me.

00:30:53.800 | So, I started talking with this guy,

00:30:56.800 | and he was into having sex with what he perceived

00:31:01.800 | to be my six-year-old daughter,

00:31:04.840 | and he wanted to bring his wife along

00:31:07.560 | so they could both have sex with her and film it.

00:31:10.440 | And so, I, one of the things that I would do

00:31:15.160 | if I'm having an undercover phone call

00:31:17.360 | would be I would jump in a car with another agent,

00:31:20.800 | I would have them turn their phone off,

00:31:22.640 | and I would just say, "Drive,"

00:31:24.640 | and I'll have my conversation.

00:31:26.440 | And then, if I needed to stop or think,

00:31:28.600 | or something like, you know, I would just honk the horn.

00:31:30.800 | I'd be like, "Oh, man, this guy just cut me off in traffic.

00:31:32.600 | "You know, he just gave me that chance."

00:31:35.160 | So, I talked with this guy, and he starts telling me

00:31:37.280 | about how he's been abusing his nine-year-old niece.

00:31:40.960 | And so, we end up making a date for him to come

00:31:45.960 | and molest my daughter.

00:31:48.600 | And so, he drives from Oregon into Washington State

00:31:53.200 | with his wife, with cameras, and weed, and toys.

00:31:57.680 | And then, once they arrived at the hotel,

00:32:01.240 | then they were arrested and taken to jail.

00:32:06.080 | - That's crazy.

00:32:07.840 | - And his nine-year-old niece was rescued

00:32:10.120 | and no longer subject to his abuse.

00:32:12.360 | - I feel like, man, it...

00:32:15.680 | So, how long does someone do time for something like that?

00:32:19.040 | Is he still behind bars?

00:32:20.600 | - Man, he's gonna be getting close.

00:32:24.160 | I think he got 25 years.

00:32:25.760 | - 25 years as well as the wife, or what?

00:32:28.160 | - The wife got much less.

00:32:30.520 | The court found that she had kind of a diminished capacity

00:32:34.240 | and that he was taking advantage of her.

00:32:35.800 | So, she got less time.

00:32:36.960 | - That is so crazy.

00:32:39.680 | I have interviewed a group

00:32:42.080 | called the Child Rescue Coalition.

00:32:44.120 | - CRC, yeah, I know him well.

00:32:45.600 | - I don't know if you're aware of that.

00:32:46.440 | - Bill Wiltsy, the founder of the CRC, is a former...

00:32:49.840 | - Is that who we interviewed?

00:32:51.080 | Is that who we interviewed?

00:32:51.920 | - Yeah, CRC.

00:32:52.840 | - But, like, who was the lady?

00:32:53.840 | - I think her dad was the founder.

00:32:55.560 | Carly was her dad.

00:32:57.080 | - I know Bill.

00:32:58.040 | I know Glenn Pounder.

00:32:59.280 | - Bill, we talked on the phone once.

00:33:00.480 | - Yeah, so he was a detective in Albany, Oregon

00:33:03.840 | before he went and founded the CRC.

00:33:06.880 | Good group.

00:33:07.720 | I've worked with many of them.

00:33:09.280 | I think I heard you talk about that

00:33:12.200 | on one of your other podcasts.

00:33:13.520 | - Yeah, so they were just telling me the technology

00:33:15.560 | they use to kind of go into the dark web

00:33:18.440 | and these places on the internet

00:33:20.360 | that are kind of hard to reach

00:33:21.800 | and they'll find all the information.

00:33:23.640 | Where the traffickers think things are untraceable,

00:33:28.160 | they can get that information.

00:33:30.480 | And they kind of were talking about how

00:33:32.480 | they will give all this information to the police

00:33:36.560 | of even like straight up like addresses,

00:33:38.600 | like go investigate this place.

00:33:39.920 | But it's kind of like, it's not on the back burner,

00:33:43.200 | but the police force,

00:33:45.480 | like there's not enough people working this specific issue.

00:33:48.560 | So a lot of cases are dragged out

00:33:50.800 | and just kind of like got to when they can get to 'em.

00:33:54.160 | You know what I mean?

00:33:55.000 | - Yeah.

00:33:55.960 | - Do you feel like enough is being done

00:33:58.600 | for this specific issue?

00:33:59.800 | - Absolutely not, I definitely don't think so.

00:34:02.440 | And I know exactly what you're talking about.

00:34:04.440 | So we can take a photo down into what we call a hash ID,

00:34:09.440 | which is if you just think of a fingerprint

00:34:13.880 | that we can identify that photo from any other photo, right?

00:34:17.760 | And so that's with this alphanumeric code.

00:34:20.760 | And so one of the things that CRC does

00:34:22.840 | is they'll track who's trading these images of CSAM, right?

00:34:29.120 | And so it's millions.

00:34:32.060 | So cops don't have enough time to work it.

00:34:34.040 | So if you're in Fort Smith, Arkansas,

00:34:39.040 | and you get a lead that one guy had three images of CSAM

00:34:45.280 | on his computer on November 9th,

00:34:49.200 | like is that the priority

00:34:51.520 | or is it the robbery at the gas station

00:34:54.520 | that's going on right now?

00:34:55.680 | You know what I mean?

00:34:56.640 | - Yeah.

00:34:57.480 | - With, and I don't mean this to be political at all,

00:35:02.080 | but with the defund the police movement

00:35:04.880 | and taking funds away from cops,

00:35:07.640 | they didn't take it away from patrol units.

00:35:09.920 | They took it away from specialized units.

00:35:12.120 | - Right.

00:35:12.960 | - Because that's what's expendable.

00:35:14.880 | 'Cause what the community expects

00:35:17.200 | is you to respond when I call, right?

00:35:19.520 | That's number one job.

00:35:21.160 | Now this three CSAM image thing,

00:35:24.560 | that can be gotten to later, right?

00:35:26.320 | - Yeah.

00:35:27.160 | - So when the police department shrunk,

00:35:30.520 | they took from all those specialized units,

00:35:33.280 | drug units, child exploitation units,

00:35:35.840 | all those things to fill in the patrol jobs.

00:35:38.920 | So it really took it away from the specialized things

00:35:43.920 | and we don't have enough people to go out and do it.

00:35:47.360 | - Man, that's crazy.

00:35:48.200 | Yeah, when they were showing me the technology,

00:35:49.840 | like she was showing me in her computer

00:35:51.600 | how she could type in Denver

00:35:53.160 | and it shows all the dots or whatever

00:35:55.280 | where some stuff is going on

00:35:57.440 | that police haven't necessarily got to yet.

00:35:59.400 | But she was typing in every city

00:36:00.680 | and I was like, man, this is crazy.

00:36:02.480 | And she would just show me the scale

00:36:03.880 | of how big this problem is.

00:36:06.640 | - And so we triaged those cases though, right?

00:36:11.080 | - Yeah.

00:36:11.920 | - I'll tell you a good story

00:36:15.520 | that will make you feel better, right?

00:36:18.600 | We had an undercover agent in North Carolina.

00:36:24.400 | He was on a chat room and engaged with a guy

00:36:27.920 | who said he was abusing his two-year-old daughter

00:36:30.480 | and sent the undercover pictures of it.

00:36:33.120 | So you have to go through a lot of steps

00:36:36.040 | from you have a name of someone online

00:36:39.760 | to getting to doing a search warrant on their house, right?

00:36:43.520 | So you have to figure out what internet service provider

00:36:47.840 | is funding this person who's chatting, right?

00:36:50.700 | Get their name, do background on them,

00:36:52.600 | all those kind of things.

00:36:53.440 | Well, we found out that that guy was in Oregon.

00:36:56.200 | So he sends it out to us.

00:36:57.360 | So then we have to do a search warrant application,

00:37:00.520 | go to judges, go to all those kind of things.

00:37:02.760 | We did all that, arrested the guy, rescued his daughter.

00:37:10.280 | She was wearing the same clothes

00:37:11.840 | that she was in when she was abused.

00:37:13.600 | It took seven hours and 26 minutes

00:37:15.880 | to get from when he abused her and sent the picture

00:37:19.120 | for him to be in handcuffs

00:37:20.440 | and her to be in the back of a police car.

00:37:23.520 | So it does work, but we have to triage those, right?

00:37:27.600 | That is the allegation of a child actively being abused

00:37:31.480 | and everybody dropped everything, right?

00:37:34.820 | When it's, you know, this 19 year old kid

00:37:39.480 | has three images of 17 year olds on his computer

00:37:42.560 | that are actually CSAM because they're under 18.

00:37:45.280 | Like that's not gonna get investigated.

00:37:46.760 | It's not gonna be gone out on.

00:37:49.440 | But that's again, where you can play with statistics.

00:37:52.480 | - On average, when you do catch these guys,

00:37:55.840 | like I feel like that sentence should be a while.

00:38:00.840 | Is it normally like a long time?

00:38:04.880 | Like that's a-

00:38:06.360 | - My biggest sentence was 270 years.

00:38:10.160 | - What was that for specifically?

00:38:11.940 | - This guy abused several young children

00:38:19.560 | the youngest of which were two years old

00:38:22.000 | and he would torture them.

00:38:25.960 | So just think of like the worst prisoner of war movie

00:38:30.960 | torturing somebody, he would do that to two-year-old babies

00:38:36.160 | and then rape them.

00:38:37.640 | - That's crazy.

00:38:39.160 | I can't believe people like that exist.

00:38:43.240 | I always think that no human being

00:38:45.760 | in their rational mind,

00:38:46.800 | I don't know if you're a religious person.

00:38:48.280 | - I am.

00:38:49.120 | - But I feel like that's almost like,

00:38:51.080 | that's a demonic activity.

00:38:53.680 | Like you can't do that as a rational human.

00:38:55.880 | You gotta have like a demon in you or something, I think.

00:38:58.760 | Like the stuff that you see would make me lose hope

00:39:02.360 | for some of these people.

00:39:03.920 | But I look at some of these people

00:39:04.760 | and I almost feel bad because it's like you,

00:39:07.200 | how did you get to this point

00:39:09.040 | where that's like pleasurable to you?

00:39:10.800 | You know what I mean?

00:39:11.640 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:39:12.560 | I have no clue and I'll tell you what does give you hope

00:39:16.120 | is getting to see victims, survivors of this abuse

00:39:21.120 | come out of it and be better people.

00:39:25.440 | And I've seen that and that's really inspiring.

00:39:30.440 | Cat is a beautiful example of somebody coming out of abuse

00:39:35.440 | and turning things around.

00:39:38.240 | It doesn't happen enough and most of them,

00:39:41.400 | most of them, it torments them their whole lives

00:39:44.560 | and they always struggle with those demons.

00:39:48.560 | - Yeah, man, so you watched the Cat episode

00:39:53.000 | and I asked her a lot of questions

00:39:55.240 | about this whole type of topic

00:39:57.040 | which she didn't really have answers for, that you do.

00:40:00.720 | Were there any things that you had to do

00:40:04.480 | that you do, were there anything in that interview

00:40:09.320 | that you kind of want to touch on in terms of like,

00:40:12.200 | yeah, that you saw or the questions that were asked?

00:40:14.760 | - So first of all, the first thing I thought

00:40:17.080 | was I wanted to give her a hug, right?

00:40:19.400 | And be like, hey, I'm sorry if law enforcement let you down.

00:40:24.400 | I'm sorry if you perceive the law enforcement let you down

00:40:27.000 | and that's never our intent.

00:40:28.400 | But one of the things that I saw in that interview

00:40:34.200 | was like when she actually finally did go and tell the police

00:40:37.840 | and they asked her for a written statement

00:40:40.200 | that she didn't want to provide a written statement.

00:40:43.600 | She wasn't at that point yet in her healing

00:40:45.600 | and I get that, right?

00:40:46.800 | For police officers that are investigating sex trafficking,

00:40:51.880 | oftentimes a victim survivor will be being re-victimized

00:40:58.400 | by somebody new before they can even file charges

00:41:03.560 | on the first person that victimized them.

00:41:06.560 | And then they don't cooperate.

00:41:08.640 | They don't show up for court.

00:41:09.680 | They don't do this.

00:41:10.840 | So it's frustrating for those cops

00:41:14.200 | 'cause they want to do the right thing.

00:41:15.920 | They want to put somebody in jail.

00:41:17.620 | They want to get the victim services.

00:41:20.600 | But because of what those victims got going on in their lives

00:41:23.800 | and their minds and those things,

00:41:25.400 | they're just not able to put themselves in that situation.

00:41:28.560 | They find themselves back in drugs,

00:41:30.400 | back in being trafficked, all those things.

00:41:33.620 | So it's almost like this revolving door

00:41:36.340 | and it's really difficult for police officers.

00:41:38.500 | And so they really have to lock somebody in

00:41:40.660 | on their statement and they're like,

00:41:42.940 | hey, this is what you're gonna testify to.

00:41:44.380 | You're gonna show up for court, right?

00:41:45.980 | Because how many times can you get burned

00:41:47.500 | and somebody get let off

00:41:49.920 | and then you're just throwing your hands up?

00:41:51.840 | Like, what do you do?

00:41:53.540 | - Yeah.

00:41:54.380 | Yeah, that's, I mean, so they,

00:41:58.140 | so it's better if they can pretty much cooperate in-

00:42:02.020 | - It's huge.

00:42:03.220 | And I had, it was a really weird case.

00:42:07.600 | I got asked to do an undercover deal

00:42:10.520 | with a girl who was being trafficked.

00:42:12.700 | And I knew her.

00:42:17.100 | I knew her mom and I knew her grandma.

00:42:19.260 | And so-

00:42:20.580 | - So you had to act like you were gonna buy this girl

00:42:22.340 | that you knew pretty much?

00:42:23.680 | - I had back out of it.

00:42:25.380 | I couldn't do it.

00:42:26.220 | - Yeah, you had just had someone else do it?

00:42:27.460 | - Yeah, and so we ended up contacting her,

00:42:30.840 | interviewing her.

00:42:31.940 | She's doing really well right now.

00:42:34.900 | But you could see the progression

00:42:39.500 | of just her going from one abuser to another abuser

00:42:42.140 | to another abuser.

00:42:43.380 | And how many times her family tried to pull her out

00:42:47.620 | and took her away from it

00:42:49.180 | and she would just slide back to it.

00:42:51.600 | - Yeah.

00:42:53.180 | Yeah, when I was talking to Kat,

00:42:54.740 | what really caught my attention was the fact that,

00:42:57.140 | you know, the dude who was doing the selling,

00:43:00.700 | he got caught.

00:43:02.140 | All those men with weird fetishes

00:43:04.740 | that buy these young women,

00:43:06.580 | they, a lot of times, get away with it.

00:43:09.020 | And they could be just regular married guys

00:43:11.620 | with a family at home that are showing up to,

00:43:14.780 | you know, a hotel room to molest a kid or whatever.

00:43:17.600 | Is there a lot of so-called like normal people

00:43:20.940 | with normal lives that are involved in this type of stuff?

00:43:25.460 | - So, and one of the reasons that's so difficult

00:43:29.080 | is because once we know a 14-year-old's being trafficked,

00:43:33.640 | we have to do everything to stop it, right?

00:43:35.660 | It's not like you can see how many.

00:43:37.700 | And so, the amount of, you know,

00:43:40.860 | different layers they put to protect themselves

00:43:43.140 | on who they trafficked the person to

00:43:46.440 | versus the protections that the people

00:43:48.820 | who the 14-year-old got trafficked to took,

00:43:51.380 | it makes it really hard to go back and do those.

00:43:55.420 | - To retrace kind of the conversation

00:43:57.620 | they had with what people?

00:43:58.820 | - Yeah, and, you know, having, you know,

00:44:00.980 | been undercover as someone who's purchasing that,

00:44:05.180 | it's just so sad.

00:44:07.540 | Like, it was funny, like,

00:44:10.180 | I would just sit in a room and talk to 'em.

00:44:13.220 | Like, you know, it's like $300 for an hour or whatever.

00:44:18.140 | And they wanted to do everything but have sex.

00:44:22.420 | And if they thought they could get away

00:44:24.700 | with just talking to you for an hour,

00:44:26.960 | they would just be like, this is, you know, easy money.

00:44:29.740 | - So, you had to talk to the children?

00:44:31.380 | - Yeah, the girls, like, as an undercover.

00:44:33.580 | But, so, a lot of times when you, you know,

00:44:37.820 | identify yourself as police, all those kind of things,

00:44:39.900 | then they clam up.

00:44:41.340 | But if you're a John and you're just sitting there

00:44:43.300 | and you're asking them about their life,

00:44:45.340 | then they're willing to tell you anything

00:44:47.980 | to not have to perform a sex act.

00:44:50.700 | So, they'll sit there and talk to you.

00:44:52.300 | So, it's a completely consensual conversation.

00:44:55.220 | So, there's no rights violations or anything like that.

00:44:58.980 | So, I would try to get as much,

00:45:00.960 | if we're gonna meet with, you know, girls that night,

00:45:03.320 | why don't I sit in the room with 'em

00:45:04.700 | and talk to 'em for 30 or 45 minutes

00:45:06.940 | and see how much information I can gain from them

00:45:09.900 | before the police come in and they arrest the pimp outside,

00:45:14.020 | all those kind of things.

00:45:15.140 | Because she might be more willing

00:45:16.480 | to tell me a lot of information.

00:45:18.340 | Or if not, I can get a lot of information.

00:45:20.540 | But then when she's interviewed by a forensic specialist,

00:45:24.060 | then they're gonna be able to use a lot of that information

00:45:26.100 | and have a lot more knowledge

00:45:27.040 | when they try to engage with her and get her services.

00:45:30.980 | - So, as an undercover agent,

00:45:33.260 | why can't you, you know, meet with these children that you,

00:45:37.100 | is this talking to 'em in person or is it online?

00:45:40.640 | - In person.

00:45:41.480 | - So, like, why can't you just walk into a room

00:45:43.360 | and see that this guy has these children and on the spot?

00:45:47.100 | - So, they do it all, it's like all outcalls.

00:45:48.900 | So, we'll either set up a house or a hotel room

00:45:51.800 | and those kind of things.

00:45:54.020 | The child will come to the front door.

00:45:58.520 | There's a car sitting, you know, three blocks away.

00:46:01.920 | You got a surveillance team watching that.

00:46:03.980 | Bring the kid in.

00:46:04.820 | And then you have to make sure that they're there

00:46:06.620 | to, you know, perform a sex act.

00:46:08.580 | - You have to, like, get certified proof.

00:46:10.680 | - Right, so you're just making all those steps.

00:46:12.700 | And so, my thought when doing that was, like,

00:46:14.700 | why not get as much information while I can?

00:46:16.860 | 'Cause the car's sitting there outside,

00:46:18.820 | like, nothing's gonna happen, so.

00:46:21.260 | - Dang, that is crazy to me.

00:46:23.980 | I had a 16-year-old girl with a pistol in her pocket.

00:46:26.340 | I was pretty sure she was gonna try to rob me, so.

00:46:29.500 | - Really?

00:46:30.340 | - Yeah.

00:46:31.700 | - Dude, that is a crazy job to work in, like, that is.

00:46:36.260 | Do you have a lot of trauma, like, now about that?

00:46:38.580 | Or it just, like, not?

00:46:40.080 | - I don't have a lot of trauma about it.

00:46:44.980 | I know a lot of people who have done what I do

00:46:50.420 | have a lot of trauma.

00:46:53.540 | I feel fortunate.

00:46:54.660 | I feel like I have a great family.

00:46:57.100 | I have great friends that understand what I go through.

00:47:00.020 | - Yeah, we need people like you, you know what I mean?

00:47:01.900 | Like, if there was no guys like you willing

00:47:03.940 | to put themselves in these situations, you know,

00:47:07.640 | we wouldn't rescue these kids in the first place.

00:47:11.100 | What is your thought on corrupt cops?

00:47:14.620 | Is there, or corrupt, like, special agents?

00:47:17.660 | I've always wondered that because, like, you know,

00:47:20.220 | you hear the stories about the same guys

00:47:21.860 | that are supposed to be, you know, saving people

00:47:23.620 | are also involved in the same thing

00:47:25.100 | that they're trying to help, or whatever.

00:47:26.620 | Is that common, or no?

00:47:28.140 | Have you seen that?

00:47:28.980 | - I've never seen that.

00:47:29.940 | I mean, I've seen corruption.

00:47:31.700 | Like, you know, I work for the Treasury Department

00:47:36.700 | and see people that would, you know,

00:47:38.740 | inappropriately access IRS data, or whatever,

00:47:42.020 | you know, on their ex-spouse, or something like that, right?

00:47:44.840 | That's corruption.

00:47:46.020 | I haven't seen any widespread corruption.

00:47:49.940 | I know that it occurs.

00:47:51.140 | I'm not naive to that fact.

00:47:53.300 | In the federal government, I think it happens way, way less

00:47:57.260 | than in certain, like, local police departments.

00:47:59.660 | I know people in local police departments

00:48:02.820 | where there has been some widespread corruption.

00:48:05.400 | And it's disheartening, it becomes a culture.

00:48:10.180 | With the federal government,

00:48:11.580 | the prerequisites in getting into it,

00:48:15.160 | the amount of training, the amount of moving around,

00:48:18.060 | the amount of just time it takes to get it done,

00:48:21.060 | is, I think, you know, restrictive.

00:48:24.020 | A lot of smaller police departments, you know,

00:48:25.980 | they're hiring somebody for $40,000 a year.

00:48:28.400 | Federal agents make it $120,000 a year, you know?

00:48:31.140 | So, it's a lot easier to fall into corruption

00:48:35.580 | when you're in tough times yourself.

00:48:37.740 | - Yeah.

00:48:39.140 | I mean, yeah.

00:48:40.460 | I totally agree with that.

00:48:42.420 | What is the way that these people communicate

00:48:47.260 | to where it's untraceable?

00:48:48.380 | Is it through the door?

00:48:49.260 | 'Cause I think a lot of people have these,

00:48:50.900 | like, these thoughts about the dark web.

00:48:53.000 | Like, what can you communicate on with someone

00:48:56.180 | to where you can never be traced?

00:48:57.860 | - So, the dark web was,

00:49:01.180 | do you know why the dark web exists?

00:49:03.860 | - I mean, I'll say is I've gotten on the dark web

00:49:06.380 | before I had a brother who somehow downloaded the server.

00:49:08.860 | I'm not a tech-savvy dude,

00:49:10.180 | but he somehow got me on the dark web.

00:49:12.460 | And, like, the stuff that was accessible on there,

00:49:14.140 | and the links you could click,

00:49:16.420 | it was crazy. - Drugs, fake IDs, girls,

00:49:18.580 | all that kind of stuff.

00:49:19.420 | - It was the craziest stuff.

00:49:20.460 | Like, I remember clicking one link

00:49:23.620 | where it was just, like, I just wanted to see.

00:49:25.460 | It was, like, I think it was, like,

00:49:29.120 | there was all these different links,

00:49:29.980 | and one of them was, like, videos about,

00:49:32.060 | I don't even know, suicide videos,

00:49:34.900 | just stuff that could never be on the regular internet,

00:49:36.820 | or it might be, like, torturing videos,

00:49:38.300 | or, you know, you can buy, like, guns or whatever it is.

00:49:42.580 | But I couldn't believe the stuff that was on there.

00:49:44.740 | But is that the avenue these guys use to communicate,

00:49:48.420 | or what?

00:49:49.260 | - I would say probably less than 50% of 'em use the dark web.

00:49:54.300 | The dark web was created by the US government.

00:49:58.580 | And what it was created for was

00:50:02.900 | to allow, like, dissidents in Iran or in China

00:50:07.900 | to be able to communicate without it being traced

00:50:11.060 | or intercepted by those foreign governments, right?

00:50:14.460 | So that's why it was created,

00:50:16.060 | and you have your user,

00:50:17.340 | and then you have these nodes that it goes through.

00:50:20.460 | Like, it's complicated.

00:50:22.060 | But the biggest way,

00:50:27.060 | and probably something we haven't even touched on yet,

00:50:30.700 | is these people are acting,

00:50:32.660 | is on online platforms where kids are at.

00:50:35.940 | They're stalking kids on, you know, all these different,

00:50:41.180 | you know, I don't wanna throw any certain one out there,

00:50:45.300 | but there's all these different pages, you know,

00:50:47.540 | where kids congregate and they stay things and do things.

00:50:51.380 | And that's where they're going,

00:50:54.580 | and they're getting kids to produce material.

00:50:56.380 | And one of the biggest trends,

00:50:58.380 | one of the biggest upsetting things

00:50:59.780 | is what's called sextortion,

00:51:01.780 | which is getting a kid to take a nude photo,

00:51:04.740 | pretending to be a kid their same age

00:51:06.860 | and be in love with them.

00:51:08.340 | And then they send the photo,

00:51:09.900 | and then they find out that that's an adult male.

00:51:13.140 | And now that they have one nude photo,

00:51:14.740 | they say, "I'm gonna send this to all your friends,

00:51:17.940 | "everybody in your school.

00:51:19.180 | "Gonna give it to your parents, your church,

00:51:20.980 | "if you don't take more nude photos for me."

00:51:23.860 | And so then they force these kids

00:51:25.780 | into abusing themselves for their pleasure

00:51:29.660 | on these online platforms.

00:51:31.220 | - Dang, yeah.

00:51:32.060 | I remember talking to the CRC and they were like,

00:51:34.380 | you know, these guys will even go on,

00:51:36.540 | say, like a Fortnite video game or whatever it is

00:51:39.140 | where kids just get on and, you know, get cool with them,

00:51:43.020 | make them feel comfortable,

00:51:44.180 | and then the, like, stuff can start to happen.

00:51:47.300 | - I, I'll tell a personal story.

00:51:50.700 | I have, in my family, we call,

00:51:53.980 | my cousin's kids call me uncle,

00:51:55.900 | and I call them my nieces and nephews.

00:51:58.140 | Probably about 15 years ago,

00:52:04.140 | I got a call from my niece

00:52:07.020 | and said that there's a creepy guy at my house.

00:52:09.900 | So it's like eight o'clock in the morning.

00:52:12.900 | I grab my gun, jump in my truck, head to her house.

00:52:16.500 | Nobody's there.

00:52:18.140 | I go knock on the door.

00:52:19.460 | She opens the door.

00:52:20.300 | I talk to her and I say, "What's going on?"

00:52:22.340 | She's like, "I met this guy online."

00:52:24.420 | And I was like, "Why does he know your address?"

00:52:28.500 | She's like, "Well, I gave him my address."

00:52:30.380 | And I'm like, "Oh, first problem, right?"

00:52:33.540 | And, you know, this guy had started out

00:52:36.140 | pretending he was, like, 26,

00:52:38.660 | and she was, like, 17 or whatever, 16.

00:52:41.060 | And so they started this relationship.

00:52:44.660 | Well, by the time it got to the end

00:52:46.460 | when he showed up at the house,

00:52:47.580 | it's a 53-year-old dude, and she doesn't let him in.

00:52:51.300 | And so I'm talking to her,

00:52:52.820 | and she gets a message from the guy.

00:52:56.500 | And he says, "It's okay, baby.

00:52:58.020 | "We can just have phone sex instead."

00:53:00.940 | And so I was like, "No, tell him to come back.

00:53:04.240 | "Tell him you were in the shower and come back."

00:53:06.500 | So this six-foot-three, 350-pound, 53-year-old

00:53:11.500 | shows up at my aunt's door

00:53:14.260 | to have sex with my 16-year-old niece.

00:53:17.020 | - And you got him right there.

00:53:19.100 | - Oh, yeah.

00:53:20.100 | Yeah, we had a talk.

00:53:22.060 | I called the police, and while we waited for them to come,

00:53:25.340 | we had a discussion about how sorry he was.

00:53:29.180 | And I told him, "Yeah, you're only sorry

00:53:31.900 | "'cause you got caught."

00:53:33.500 | - And he went to jail?

00:53:34.900 | - Yeah.

00:53:36.500 | - Dang, man.

00:53:37.860 | Did she say how her and that dude met?

00:53:42.940 | - It was on just an internet chat program.

00:53:45.980 | But no matter who you are,

00:53:51.820 | this is where kids are getting abused,

00:53:54.460 | is by people they trust, right?

00:53:56.820 | And pedophiles are creating trust online to abuse your kids.

00:54:01.820 | - Have you ever had to shoot one of these dudes?

00:54:04.540 | - No, I've never shot anybody in my life.

00:54:06.620 | - Really?

00:54:07.460 | - Yeah.

00:54:08.300 | - You're lucky.

00:54:09.140 | - Yep.

00:54:09.980 | - Yeah, our team security was telling me a story,

00:54:11.620 | 'cause they also, the guy that does our team security

00:54:14.900 | also had to do some undercover stuff just here in Denver

00:54:17.820 | with like normal, I don't think it was,

00:54:19.820 | it definitely wasn't child trafficking,

00:54:21.500 | but it was prostitution, and he would, you know, undercover,

00:54:24.620 | like he was meeting up with these girls,

00:54:26.020 | and then he would, same type of thing,

00:54:27.660 | and he was telling me some of those stories.

00:54:29.220 | So yeah, I bet there's some crazy situations

00:54:34.780 | you ran into.

00:54:36.020 | - There are, there are.

00:54:37.060 | - Well, how old are you now?

00:54:38.300 | - I'm 50 years old.

00:54:40.140 | - So you were just, this is time to give this up.

00:54:42.300 | - Well, I became eligible to retire at 50.

00:54:45.380 | - Yeah.

00:54:46.220 | - And so on the very first day I was eligible to retire,

00:54:49.180 | I retired, and I took three new jobs

00:54:53.740 | within 10 days of retiring.

00:54:56.340 | So I work for the Indomitian Sioux Family Foundation,

00:55:01.260 | and a company called, or a non-profit

00:55:05.500 | called Operation Light Shine,

00:55:07.100 | and Operation Light Shine works with the Thiebaud Foundation

00:55:10.140 | to build out centers and pay for cops

00:55:13.100 | to get the best technology,

00:55:14.740 | and to pay for the salaries of cops

00:55:16.700 | to work together in collaboration centers

00:55:19.300 | to combat the problem of child exploitation.

00:55:23.500 | And then I took a job with a private company

00:55:26.660 | who does facial recognition technology,

00:55:30.300 | and through my career I can absolutely say

00:55:34.700 | that I'm aware of over 1,000 children

00:55:39.060 | that were identified by using this technology.

00:55:41.820 | And so I was really excited to get to go work

00:55:43.940 | for that company too.

00:55:45.060 | - Yeah, that's awesome.

00:55:47.700 | Is there any, 'cause my big thing that I like to talk about

00:55:50.980 | is just the things that go on in this world,

00:55:53.900 | the conspiracy theories, I guess is what you would say.

00:55:57.100 | Is there any that you are kind of like

00:56:01.300 | knowledgeable or passionate about,

00:56:02.580 | or some things that you didn't really get to speak on

00:56:04.620 | during your career that you can tell us about,

00:56:09.260 | or things like that?

00:56:11.380 | - No.

00:56:13.660 | - Things that'll blow our mind?

00:56:14.660 | - No.

00:56:15.860 | - The world is what it seems.

00:56:18.340 | - No, it isn't, but there's none that I can comment on.

00:56:22.020 | - But there's things you know?

00:56:23.900 | - Yes, absolutely.

00:56:25.060 | - You just can't talk about 'em for, what,

00:56:27.100 | more safety on your family's side,

00:56:30.100 | or is it things that you just--

00:56:31.460 | - No, it's ongoing.

00:56:33.140 | - Oh, ongoing things. - Investigation, yeah, yeah.

00:56:34.940 | - Got you.

00:56:35.780 | - Yeah.

00:56:36.820 | - Well, when it's not, well, I need to hear,

00:56:39.460 | I need to hear stuff off camera.

00:56:41.220 | (laughing)

00:56:42.300 | But man, no, I really appreciate you getting on here.

00:56:45.260 | And you know, this, as someone who this issue,

00:56:50.860 | for some reason, it's always kind of like,

00:56:54.100 | it's something that's kind of touched my heart.

00:56:55.580 | I appreciate you doing your job and helping so many people,

00:56:59.380 | and kind of sharing your story.

00:57:02.220 | And yeah, man, I wish you all the best in retirement.

00:57:06.060 | I wish you, you know, a lot of peace,

00:57:08.620 | and a lot of joy in the rest of your life.

00:57:10.100 | - I appreciate it.

00:57:11.220 | - Yeah, man, is there anything else

00:57:12.620 | you wanna get off your chest?

00:57:13.740 | Or I feel like we covered a lot.

00:57:15.180 | I feel like that--

00:57:16.020 | - Yeah, if you ever wanna have me back,

00:57:16.980 | if you come up with like, 10 more guests,

00:57:18.660 | and you got questions that you wanna kind of

00:57:20.100 | wrap back around to, or maybe some of these investigations

00:57:23.020 | we can get over with, and we can talk again.

00:57:24.820 | - 100% man, thank you.

00:57:26.260 | Curious Mike out.

00:57:27.460 | (upbeat music)

00:57:30.580 | Thank you, bro.

00:57:31.700 | - Wait, I have some questions.

00:57:33.580 | One, the guy that was abusing the two-year-olds,

00:57:37.020 | how did he get two-year-olds?

00:57:39.460 | - Mom was an alcoholic and a prostitute.

00:57:41.700 | She would go out and drink and run tricks,

00:57:45.740 | and he offered to stay back there with her babies,

00:57:48.860 | two-year-olds.

00:57:49.700 | - He would just like, babysit people's kids?

00:57:50.940 | 'Cause it wasn't just those kids.

00:57:51.940 | - Just her kids.

00:57:52.820 | Like, he kind of had like,

00:57:54.100 | a friendship relationship with her.

00:57:56.700 | He actually did kidnap one girl off of a playground

00:58:00.580 | outside of his apartment building and abuse her,

00:58:02.940 | but then he let her go,

00:58:04.700 | and she went home and didn't tell anybody.

00:58:06.540 | So we only knew that he did it because of the pictures.

00:58:09.660 | He abused the nine-year-old older sister

00:58:11.940 | of the two-year-olds.

00:58:13.540 | He would feed her, like, cough syrup,

00:58:15.580 | and get her to fall asleep, and then abuse her.

00:58:18.420 | I forget who else he abused, but--

00:58:20.940 | - Oh, it was so disgusting.

00:58:22.260 | - Did you hear about the Drake and Josh documentary?

00:58:25.500 | The Nickelodeon, have you seen that?

00:58:27.740 | - I haven't seen it yet.

00:58:29.180 | - The Nickelodeon documentary,

00:58:33.220 | just about how many of those dudes,

00:58:34.780 | and how many of those dudes in that,

00:58:37.980 | that man, they were, like, the guy at Drake and Josh,

00:58:40.660 | that dude was getting molested.

00:58:42.380 | But like, a lot of 'em in Nickelodeon

00:58:44.580 | were like, doing that to these kids on these child shows.

00:58:48.300 | It was like a big thing.

00:58:49.140 | Like, a lot of these kids are messed up now.

00:58:50.980 | - How is it that?

00:58:52.500 | - That's why I think it's so much bigger.

00:58:54.300 | Like, that's why I think there's higher things

00:58:56.940 | that are running some weird organized ring type stuff.

00:59:01.020 | - I wonder if it's organized, or if they just like--

00:59:02.740 | - Hunter Biden.

00:59:04.420 | - That's the son of Joe Biden, right?

00:59:06.100 | You wanna know a crazy story about him?

00:59:08.820 | - Yeah.

00:59:09.660 | - This dude, 'cause I know a girl, right,

00:59:11.860 | who was telling me about these sex parties in L.A.

00:59:16.500 | This dude got kicked out of this sex party in L.A.

00:59:20.020 | She was telling me, kind of, what goes on,

00:59:21.820 | how they're doing, like, all this.

00:59:23.460 | You walk from room to room,

00:59:24.500 | and you see different celebrities,

00:59:25.540 | and different politicians.

00:59:26.780 | You know, a lot of 'em have the masks on.

00:59:28.220 | But, you know, the girl I was talking to is pretty famous,

00:59:30.300 | and she was telling me what goes on

00:59:31.380 | at these sex parties in L.A.

00:59:33.300 | That same dude, Hunter Biden, was at the same one,

00:59:35.540 | and he got kicked out of the sex party,

00:59:38.260 | or the sex, like, club, because he,

00:59:40.740 | I guess one of the rules is you have to ask before you touch,

00:59:42.940 | and he was, like, disrespecting the women in there,

00:59:44.860 | or whatever.

00:59:45.700 | But, yeah, that's a bad guy right there.

00:59:47.780 | Yeah, he is, and he's got some younger people

00:59:50.940 | than were 18 on the list there, too.

00:59:54.540 | - Really?

00:59:55.380 | - Yeah.

00:59:56.220 | - Okay, I have more questions.

00:59:57.260 | 'Cause you were in the Pacific Northwest, right?

00:59:58.780 | - Yes, ma'am.

00:59:59.620 | - This guy that I knew,

01:00:01.300 | 'cause at the time I had a boyfriend up there,

01:00:04.540 | and his father worked at his church.

01:00:07.420 | He worked at the church.

01:00:08.260 | He worked with, like, college-age students.

01:00:09.700 | Like, he was, like, a seemingly great guy.

01:00:12.100 | Had a YouTube talking about God,

01:00:13.580 | talking about Jesus, da-da-da-da-da.

01:00:15.540 | - A year or two now ago, he got arrested for,

01:00:18.580 | have you heard of Isaac Chirac?

01:00:20.340 | He got arrested for trafficking girls into Seattle.

01:00:22.860 | He was, like, someone, like, we kicked it with.

01:00:24.620 | Like, we knew him.

01:00:25.460 | He was, like, normal, nice, like, worshiped Jesus.

01:00:27.740 | - Really?

01:00:28.580 | - Yes.

01:00:29.420 | - I arrested a guy who, he molested his daughter.

01:00:32.820 | She was, like, 10 or 11.

01:00:34.420 | He got sent to prison for 10 years.

01:00:36.500 | He got out, joined a church,

01:00:39.140 | got on the missionary group for the church,

01:00:41.340 | went to Africa, found a lady there

01:00:44.540 | to marry who had two daughters

01:00:46.740 | and started abusing both of her daughters in Kenya.

01:00:50.180 | - So people just really use the church as a cover,

01:00:53.660 | which leads me to my last question.

01:00:55.500 | Why do you think it's so prevalent

01:00:56.900 | with, like, Catholic priests?

01:00:58.660 | - I have no clue.

01:01:01.500 | Like, I think that's just child rape.

01:01:04.700 | You know what I mean?

01:01:05.540 | I don't think they're filming it, they're doing anything.

01:01:07.300 | I haven't had any investigations into the Catholic church,

01:01:10.580 | but I totally agree with you.

01:01:12.140 | And I think it's just, like,

01:01:14.260 | once that kind of infection starts

01:01:16.820 | and you keep those people on

01:01:18.740 | and they bring on other people, it's like, just, uh--

01:01:23.300 | - So do you think it's like--

01:01:24.660 | - You're right, though, bro, it is the porn,

01:01:26.620 | because, like, you get desensitized to normal stuff

01:01:31.540 | and you need weird stuff.

01:01:33.020 | And then, I bet you that's how a lot of this stuff happens.

01:01:35.180 | - Also, like, the Catholic priest,

01:01:37.100 | do you think that there's a part of it

01:01:38.540 | that's, like, because of the job

01:01:39.940 | where they're not allowed to get married,

01:01:41.140 | they're not allowed to have sex with women?

01:01:42.300 | - Yeah, it is.

01:01:43.300 | They, they, they-- - Yeah.

01:01:45.380 | - It's gotta be, they can't-- - It's gotta be.

01:01:47.380 | - Yeah, it's gotta be.

01:01:48.780 | They're supposed to be celibate for life,

01:01:50.820 | but those people who are supposed to be celibate,

01:01:52.740 | they end up doing wild stuff.

01:01:54.180 | - Yeah.

01:01:55.300 | That's always the most wild ones

01:01:57.500 | are the ones that are the quietest, shy ones.

01:02:00.420 | - It's just wild to me that this is such a,

01:02:02.540 | like, you would think this is, like, a freak issue

01:02:04.420 | that only, like, a very few number of people deal with,

01:02:07.660 | but, like you said, it's just so widespread

01:02:09.620 | and I think that's the scariest part.

01:02:11.740 | - Oh. - Like, our.

01:02:13.740 | - That was good, man.

01:02:14.580 | I thought it was good.

01:02:15.420 | What'd you think, Cedric?

01:02:16.260 | - Yeah, I thought it was good.

01:02:17.100 | I thought you, I thought it was, like,

01:02:18.020 | super natural to just blow everything up.

01:02:19.540 | - Yeah, I did too.

01:02:20.700 | Good, good, good.

01:02:21.860 | - You're good at talking.

01:02:23.660 | - Oh, try being an undercover for a few years.

01:02:26.980 | - Oh yeah, you gotta-- - You gotta, like,

01:02:27.820 | bullshit yourself out of a few situations.

01:02:29.900 | - Give your P's and Q's.

01:02:31.140 | - I have something that's called

01:02:32.300 | essential tremor syndrome.

01:02:33.940 | It's been getting worse as I get older, so I'll shake.

01:02:36.260 | - Yeah. - And, uh,

01:02:38.060 | and so, when I'm under a lot of stress,

01:02:40.260 | it gets really bad.

01:02:41.340 | Like, it'll be really noticeable.

01:02:43.420 | And so, I had to, I had to buy a bunch of fentanyl last year.

01:02:48.420 | So I had to go meet this dude to buy, you know,

01:02:51.180 | a couple thousand pills of fentanyl.

01:02:53.300 | And I'm like, fuck, I'm just gonna be shaking

01:02:55.220 | like a motherfucker.

01:02:56.260 | So I'm texting with him beforehand.

01:02:58.300 | I'm like, hey dude, I can't do this shit

01:03:01.020 | 'cause I have early onset Parkinson's

01:03:03.740 | and it'll fuck with my medication, stuff like that.

01:03:06.140 | And I just threw it in this, like, subtle text.

01:03:08.380 | And so then, when I went, I noticed myself shaking.

01:03:10.820 | I'm like, it's fucking Parkinson's, man.

01:03:12.740 | This shit's gonna be bad.

01:03:13.900 | And I'm just like, it's not, it's not Parkinson's at all,

01:03:16.900 | but it's like, you know what I mean?

01:03:18.300 | Let me use my weakness as my strength.

01:03:19.940 | Like, who's thinking that somebody's gonna be at the top

01:03:21.980 | and has Parkinson's?

01:03:22.820 | - Right. - Right.

01:03:24.060 | - Nah, dude, I bet it is crazy

01:03:27.500 | having to work undercover and just, like,

01:03:29.380 | put on that persona.

01:03:30.420 | Like, you're one of these freaks, you know?

01:03:33.300 | - Yes. - Like, they have to watch

01:03:34.860 | every minute of it.

01:03:35.700 | - You're literally an actor.

01:03:36.660 | You're like a professional actor.

01:03:37.900 | - I would just take confessions that I got

01:03:39.780 | 'cause I love to do interviews.

01:03:41.340 | I would interview, and so I had a bunch of people

01:03:43.300 | that I interviewed and they would confess everything to me

01:03:45.100 | and tell me all about it.

01:03:46.380 | Like, the guy from Africa, he confessed everything.

01:03:49.940 | - Yeah.

01:03:50.780 | - And so I would just make their story my own.

01:03:53.380 | And I would just, that would be my story.