(slow hip hop music) - Welcome to another episode of Curious Mike. I'm here with my guy. Why don't you introduce yourself to the people? - My name's Josh Findley. I'm a retired special agent from Homeland Security. - Got you. And the way this interview came about is actually kind of unique.

You ran into my brother on a plane and I guess you guys had the most interesting conversation and he texted me right when he landed. He texted our family group chat and was like, "I just met the most interesting guy. "He had the craziest stories. "Like Mike, you need to get him on your podcast." So how did you, so you and my brother just were sitting next to each other on the airplane?

How'd that go? - Yeah, I was flying from Portland to Washington, D.C. with a layover in Chicago and Jontae's team had just played in Portland the night before and they were flying to Chicago and he was sitting next to me and I just recently retired. When we were on the plane, I'd probably been less than two weeks that I'd retired and it's kind of nice that I get to talk about stuff now 'cause when you're working for the government, there's a lot of stuff you can't talk about and so we started talking and I was telling him some stories and he was asking me questions and he was like, "Dude, my brother just had this girl "who's a survivor of human trafficking on his podcast.

"I think you'd be great for that." And so we talked about that and I was like, "Yeah, dude, I'd be happy to do it." And I had no clue that you were his brother. So all I knew him was as Jontae at that point. - Right, that's awesome. Nah, I was super excited to talk to you.

For the people listening and for honestly me, what exactly is Homeland Security? I know I've heard the name but what exactly is that job? - So there's, it would be similar to what you would think as an FBI agent, right? So after 2001, 9/11, the government reorganized and created the Department of Homeland Security in 2003.

So it has many different factions. The Secret Service is under Homeland Security, the Border Patrol, Customs, all those are under Homeland Security. Well, prior to 2003, there had been special agents for US Customs, there'd been special agents for immigration, there'd been all these different special agents in Homeland Security.

So they brought them together to be one group which eventually became Homeland Security Investigations. And it brought together all those authorities to investigate crimes. And so it has one of the broadest set of authorities to investigate crimes in the US. - How did you find yourself wanting to be in that line of work?

- So ever since I was a kid, I thought I wanted to be an FBI agent. I ended up joining the Army, became a military policeman. And then I switched over to something that's called the Army Criminal Investigation Division, Army CID that does felony investigations, which then kind of led me into being a civilian federal agent.

I started off with the Treasury Department and then switched over to Homeland Security. And then that's when I started working with child exploitation cases. And it's interesting, everybody's like, why would Homeland Security ever investigate child exploitation? And I'll just clarify this up front that, so what was referred to as child pornography has been kind of reclassified as child sexual abuse material, as it is better for the morale of survivors of exploitation.

And so if I say CSAM or any of those kinds of things that I'm talking about what you or many of your followers would think of as child pornography, would be CSAM. So historically, CSAM would come into the United States through the mail. And so it would get intercepted by U.S.

Customs Service. And it would be usually worked with Postal Service and Customs Service. And so that's how Homeland Security kind of became a leader in CSAM investigations. - Talk about your first story where you really realized like, man, this world is straight up evil. Well, actually, before we get into that, I wanna talk about when you decide to be a Homeland Security and be in the line of work, what is the things that you have to like sign or the things that you have to say, I'm not gonna speak on like, 'cause you said this is one of your first interviews since you've retired.

- It is. - Is there things that you are not allowed to like, what's the-- - So there are things that I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement about that are ongoing criminal investigations that I was involved in prior to my retirement. I'm allowed to talk about things that have gone through the court system and stuff like that.

Then I was involved in some undercover things that if I were to talk about them, I think it would put myself and my family in jeopardy, so I wouldn't talk about those. - Right, wow. Yeah, I wanna get into some of that later. But yeah, talk about that first story where you were like, man, like this job is insane, but also the world that I live in like needs this.

The world that I live in is evil. - And I can remember the first time that my eyes were completely open to it. And this was a young girl. She was 10 and 11. She was sexually abused by her father. It was recorded, put out on the internet. Some detectives in Canada found these images and were able to use clues in the background of the images like a cup and a sweatshirt and those kind of things, and they found out that she was located in Northwest, Pacific Northwest.

And so we started looking for her there. So we searched for her for two years, and finally we were able to figure out who she was based largely on the fact that she had reported sex abuse by her father to a local police department. He had fled the country and he was featured on the media, and that's kinda how we ended up linking those things together.

But through that process, when a victim is identified of child sexual abuse material, they are allowed to be notified by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children every time someone is caught with their image. Now, not every police department, not every federal agency, not everybody submits all their images to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, but a lot of 'em do.

And so after we were able to identify her, I started calculating how many times someone was caught with her image. So the images were submitted. Someone was caught possessing her images of her being raped as a 10-year-old. It was six times a day, every four hours. So if you can imagine being a 16 or 17-year-old girl, having the worst moments of your life, being raped by your father, and knowing that men are being caught, on the average, of every four hours.

- Yeah. - To walk out into a grocery store, to walk into an elevator with three grown men, and wonder which one of those has seen you. And that's the first time that, when I did that calculation, it's the first time it really opened my eyes to how screwed up this is.

- Yeah, that fetish, or whatever you want to call it, for that to be something that grown men would want to consume is really, honestly, strange. Have you come to any conclusions on why that has even become a thing in our society? What feeds that desire for grown men, not only to want to abuse young women, but to even consume it?

Like, have you guys figured that out at all? - So, I think there's two general issues. One is pornography and pornography addictions. - Yeah. - I know you've had a recent guest that talked about that, and you talked about it with her, that once someone has seen a certain type of pornography for so long, then they seek something new, something different, and those kind of things, or something taboo, something that's wrong.

So, that's one way. And then pedophilia is the other way, that men who are just absolutely attracted to children, and that with the onset of the internet, giving people the ability to be anonymous and hang out in chat rooms and have conversations that they would never have in public, like, made it spread like wildfire.

- So, was this the main area of focus that you and your team were involved in? - Yeah. So, for about 20 years, I was focused on child sexual abuse investigations on a day-to-day basis. - Which, you know, the message that I wanna get across to people, and the reason I've had multiple guests on here speaking on this specific issue is because it may not seem like it's the biggest issue in our world today, but almost a million children go missing a year, and no one knows.

No one really speaks on it. I don't know if it's not on the news because it's a sensitive subject. I don't know if it's not on the news because the same people that run these big media outlets are also the same people that are sometimes involved in these pedophilia rings.

I don't know, but the reason that I think it's important to speak on is because, man, this is happening every single day. Like, you know, you can leave your kid in a grocery store for five seconds. They can get snatched up, you know? So I think it's just bringing awareness to it.

I know you have a lot of things to speak on, and we're gonna speak on a lot of things in this interview, but, you know, working undercover like that, were there ever any scary situations, or was it scary at all being undercover like that? You said there's been things that you didn't speak on because you were worried about the safety of your family.

You know, speak on that whole thing a little bit. - So I did a lot of undercover stuff, and I wanna circle back with you at some point about, like, kids getting abducted. But, so throughout my career, I think my first time I did an undercover deal was in 1996, like a drug deal.

I have done undercover things into white supremacy groups, selling arms overseas. Into different organizations, I've sold children, I've bought children, all those things. So when it comes to, like, the fringe organizations, that's, like, where I wouldn't wanna talk about it because, you know, those people have long memories. - Wow, okay, you talk about, so undercover, a lot of times you are obviously enacting like you're a part of something that you're not, and that's how you catch the people.

What is the process of buying or selling a child? - So, like, purchasing a child, like some of your previous guests have talked about, it's almost as easy as doing online stuff. And so to be able to go online and look through these different sites that advertise daily, you know, new to your area, this much an hour, these are the services, I mean, it's super easy to find.

And we would go on there, we would comb those websites, looking for phone numbers, looking for pictures, all those kind of things where we could determine if there was a child, and we'd set up a date and then try to arrest the trafficker. We did one of those operations and we were able, and it wasn't designed as, like, a prostitution thing to arrest the girl.

It was to identify her and get her into victim services and those kind of things. And then to try to follow up and arrest the traffickers. And there's one operation I remember, it was one of the first ones I did, that we identified, I think it's eight people in one night.

And of those eight people, six of them were previously documented survivors of child sex abuse. So you see how it feeds into each other. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And then-- - So you're saying the same people that were participating in this type of stuff, this same thing happened to them when they were younger?

- No, no, no, sorry, the victims that we identified, eight of 'em, the people who find themselves being victimized by human traffickers often are the survivors of child sex abuse. - Oh, got you. Wow, that's crazy. So some of the more mainstream kind of things that have hit the news in terms of that whole child trafficking has been the Wayfair thing and the Pizzagate thing, so-called conspiracy theories.

You as an undercover guy, how plausible are those mega things where they're selling a piece of furniture but it's disguised as a child, things like that? - So, and I hope I'm not offensive to you at all, but it's complete bullshit and it wastes our time. Because Congressional people hear that, news media hears that, and then our agency gets all these requests dumped into like, why aren't you doing more about this, why aren't you doing more about that?

And we're answering these questions instead of actually going out and doing our job and finding kids that are being abused. Because unfortunately, like I was saying, most of the time, this isn't an abduction off the street. That, if, do you know who Elizabeth Smart is? Have you heard of that story?

- I haven't. - So, it was in the late '90s, early 2000s, girl kidnapped from her house. For years, one of the top stories in the media, a girl being kidnapped in Utah. - Yeah. - If there's a girl in Denver today who got snatched out of a grocery store, what would the local police's response be?

- I don't know, you tell me. - It would be helicopters, there'd be news media. - You think? - Every cop in, around, like, would be searching for this kid. - So, what about the Amber Alerts on your phone? - So, most of the Amber Alerts on your phone are parental abductions.

So, there's a disagreement between parents and one parent who shouldn't have the kid takes the child. - Gotcha. - That's probably 90% of the Amber Alerts. If you look at missing kids in, like, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, probably 98% of them are runaways. And the perception that kids are getting, you know, trafficked on Wayfair and stuff like that, it diminishes our capacity to respond to what I believe is the true problem, which is kids are getting abused by their father, their priest, their coach, their, that, and it sets them into a downward spiral of drug addiction, going into being trafficked.

Like, you know, Kat described a traumatic home life led her into seeking things in other places, and she got conned in by a trafficker, and that's 99% of the problem. - Okay, so now let's, yeah, let's circle back a little bit to the, just the statistics that come out about all the missing children, you know, year after year, not only in the United States, but worldwide.

So, you kind of are making a sound right now, like, if that does happen, it's such an anomaly, and, like, the police react, like, so, like, forcefully, and, you know, they get their, you know, the helicopters and things, but, like, when I'm looking up these stats, it seems like it's happening a lot more than people are giving it credit for.

What are your thoughts on that? - So, I think that statistics drive money, and you can make a statistic say what you want it to say, and as far as kids not getting abducted off the streets, I'm specifically talking about the US, and most civilized countries, that, in a heartbeat, there would be an enormous law enforcement response.

Like, I don't know if you have any other friends or cops, just ask 'em, what would happen if a kid got reported abducted, not missing? So, so many kids are reported missing because they didn't come home that night, and a lot of times, that's never cleared off the books if they come back in three days, 'cause the parent doesn't report, oh, you know, my child ran away, and so then, that's a statistic for a missing child, 'cause it never got resolved.

And so, people look for statistics because, and unfortunately, there's a lot of money that flows to it because of people like you who are genuinely concerned and wanna do something about it, and when people are genuinely concerned and they wanna contribute, then there's always people who come in and start these charities or non-profits, and they spin out new statistics to raise money.

And so, you just have to be really careful on what organizations you try to donate to or support that are actually, I think, combating the real problems of child exploitation. - Gotcha. Sound of Freedom was a movie that came out recently, and it really caught a lot of people's attention.

There was a positive and negative response to that movie. How kind of accurate is that, and what were your kind of thoughts on that movie as a whole? - So, my thoughts on the movie as a whole was it was a good movie. Having worked the job, I was able to see that it was a movie.

You know what I mean? - Yeah. - If you watched a movie about your career last year and winning a championship, there'd be a lot of things that were left out, there'd be some things that maybe were changed a little bit or those kind of things. One of the things that I wish they had done better in the movie was that they portrayed Tim Ballard, who was an HSI agent.

They portrayed him as doing every step of the investigations. And we are so dependent on being a part of a team that there's forensic interview specialists that interview children. There are analysts that run things for you. There are interview people. There are polygraph people. All these different parts of the team that work really, really well together.

And for the purposes of that movie, the producers made it look like he did every one of those steps. - He was the hero and he was the only hero. - Yeah, and he did great things. And his non-profit, Operation Underground Railroad, is still out there today, still trying to help kids all over the world.

I really endorse their mission and what they're trying to do. But at the end of the day, that was a movie. It was based on a true story. And I wish Tim all the luck in the world. And I know he's left Operation Underground Railroad now and is doing some new things.

But yeah, I thought it was a great movie. It brought awareness. But it did tend to focus on that child abduction end of things, where the real problem is kids getting abused by people they know every day. - Yeah, people they trust. - Yes. - Teachers, coaches, like you said.

Even cousins, uncles. - Yes, I've had all of those. - Dang. So you're under Homeland Security. I was recently watching an interview by Joe Rogan, actually. And he was talking about how Homeland Security is the team that invaded Diddy's house. - Yes. - Do you have any knowledge on why they went to his house and invaded it?

And do you have any knowledge on that situation? - I have no direct knowledge of the investigation. So I have not taken a part in it. And if I had, I would not be able to say it because it's an ongoing criminal investigation. - Yeah, right. - But what I can say is that I believe it involved sex trafficking of minors.

That the reason it seemed like an overwhelming response to a search warrant, like why you bring, deals with the people he has around protecting him and his property, their criminal histories, things like that. So if you have a security guard that has a previous homicide conviction and he's armed, well, the cops are gonna treat the search warrant in a different way.

I can tell you that the level of probable cause that would go into getting the higher executives at Homeland Security had to sign off on that. Judge had to sign off on that. The prosecutor's office had to sign off on that. And knowing that it would be someone that's gonna be high profile, it's gonna be able to hire 20 defense attorneys to try to pick everything apart, that it would have to be a pretty solid affidavit and allegation.

- For them to even go after him like that. - Yeah, yeah. - So the idea of Hollywood and kind of these people with these pedophilia rings and things like that, and that that truly takes place. You got the Jeffrey Epstein case. What are your thoughts on kind of the, 'cause that also is kind of a conspiracy that people think that kind of these higher up people are involved in these pedophilia rings.

And then you got the Jeffrey Epstein case and kind of the defendants in his case, which were a lot of really well-known individuals and things like that. Like, what are your thoughts on that? - Oh, there's corruption. Like, I have no doubt about that. That case is just wrought with problems.

Like, I had no involvement in it, none whatsoever, but-- - But you've seen enough to know that that's-- - Yeah, it stinks. Like, yeah. My question is this. How do you charge Jelaine Maxwell in human trafficking when you can't prove who she trafficked a human to? You have to have an end user, right?

To follow this, right? So if I was gonna sell drugs, you would have to prove that I sold them to a person, right? So if I'm gonna traffic a person, you'd have to prove that I sold it to a person. - Yeah. - What in any documents came out of who these kids were trafficked to?

- So you're saying you think it's false? - No, I think they absolutely trafficked kids. And I think that there's-- - Oh, you're saying the people on the receiving end, that's the people we need to be going after as well? - Yes, yes, the people who are having sex with the 14-year-olds or the 16-year-olds, paying for it, flying to an island.

Like, to cross out of our country with the intent to have sex with a child is a felony. You're gonna do 10 years. - Yeah. - Like, do you, is the idea that there's these very powerful people, whether it's politicians, whether it's Hollywood movie stars, or, you know, different people of that caliber that are really into this type of stuff, do you think that to be the case?

- I don't think so. So I think that there is, like, true pedophilia, so, is prepubescent, right? That's 11 or under. And I think most of the people in the Epstein case, the P. Diddy case, you know, whatever, are probably gonna be in that 14 to 18 range, which is more called hemophilia, that somebody after the onset of puberty, but still a child.

So I think that's, in those circles, what the problem, or what their focus is, what they're trying to get access to. And I think in the actual pedophilia, the raping of children is a completely different thing, and I don't think there are big rings where that's happening, where people are trafficking in two-year-olds, or one-month-olds, or those kind of things.

- Right. Okay, so, 'cause I actually, you know, just being around, I kind of think the opposite. I kind of think there are a lot of people that you would never suspect, and they're powerful people that have a great background, and they will come off as super clean-cut or whatever, but on the side, they're involved in some crazy things.

Ryan Garcia, the boxer, recently came out and talked about how the bohemian growth, I don't know if you know what that is. - I don't. - It's basically, yeah, he said he was brought into the woods and forced to watch. You know, some people might call him crazy, whatever.

The bohemian growth is a real place, and kind of forced to watch, you know, people partaking, you know, this type of stuff with children, and he said himself, he was raped as a young child. But I think it's interesting, talking to someone who works certain of these cases. And I don't know if it's that these people are so high up and so protected that they get away with it, and you know, the people that are kind of messy with it, and the ones that are kind of like, leave too many things behind are the ones that get caught.

But I kind of think it goes a lot higher and deeper than people suspect. - I think that, you know, absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? - Yeah. - And I think that powerful people corrupt other powerful people. I think, you know, the Epstein thing was probably an intelligence operation that he collected evidence of this, and it was, you know, given to different intelligence agencies to further their mission, and to further push people in power to make decisions that were beneficial to 'em.

I absolutely believe that. - Do you think Epstein, is the story that he killed himself? - Yeah, that's the story. - Do you think that's what happened? - No. - Do you think he knew too much, and they killed him? - Yeah, there's too many anomalies there. You know, one of your most high-profile people would be arrested, right?

Then you look at Dr. Michael Baden, looking at the autopsy, that it wasn't a typical hanging. I've worked suicides, I've worked hangings. I know what ligature marks are. Like, I know all those things. It's not gonna be on your, you know, high-owed bone, and it's, the cameras didn't work that night.

Both guards fell asleep. Like, how many coincidences before you're like, probably wasn't a coincidence? - Yeah. So, what do you think you need to, like, how much do you need to know for them to come get you? I know there's been individuals in the past that just know too much, and it's a risk that they'll expose too much, so they'll just kinda shut up.

First of all, who does the shutting up, and what are the type of stuff that you need to, like, know for them to even go to those lengths? - I have absolutely no clue. I can tell you it's definitely not the men and women of Homeland Security Investigations that we're out there to do our jobs every day, and to help people.

- Well, I'm thinking more it's, like, the people that are involved higher up. Like, I don't know if it's, like, government, like, I don't know if it's, like, the same type of people that are involved that would, but I know, like you said, if you know too much, your life could be in danger.

Like, you said, like, even you were scared at times, you know, and you didn't wanna reveal too much when you were working the job for fear of your life. Like, who would you be afraid of? - So, in undercover situations, it's criminal organizations, and I'll start this off by saying I never worked an undercover job on a motorcycle gang in my whole life.

I know several people who have, but if that gets out, that the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang figures out that you were an undercover, like, they're gonna hurt you and your family. - Yeah. - So. - Wow. That's crazy. Man, I got a lot of questions just about, like, what it is being an undercover kinda agent.

What's, like, one of your biggest kinda stories? I wanna hear, like, a specific story of where, like, you had to pretend to be someone, and you, like, tell me one of your big stories. - I don't know, do you wanna hear something related to, like, human trafficking, or? - Anything, anything that's kinda like a crazy story as someone who is now retired that you can, yeah, talk about.

- So, I have one case where a guy met a couple online, and he was in an online chat room, and he found a couple, or a guy who was looking to purchase access to have sex with a kid. And so, he started chatting with the guy, and in our agency, you can chat online undercover, but in order to actually physically meet, you have to be certified, you have to go through training, all those kinda things.

So, he passed it off to me. So, I started talking with this guy, and he was into having sex with what he perceived to be my six-year-old daughter, and he wanted to bring his wife along so they could both have sex with her and film it. And so, I, one of the things that I would do if I'm having an undercover phone call would be I would jump in a car with another agent, I would have them turn their phone off, and I would just say, "Drive," and I'll have my conversation.

And then, if I needed to stop or think, or something like, you know, I would just honk the horn. I'd be like, "Oh, man, this guy just cut me off in traffic. "You know, he just gave me that chance." So, I talked with this guy, and he starts telling me about how he's been abusing his nine-year-old niece.

And so, we end up making a date for him to come and molest my daughter. And so, he drives from Oregon into Washington State with his wife, with cameras, and weed, and toys. And then, once they arrived at the hotel, then they were arrested and taken to jail. - That's crazy.

- And his nine-year-old niece was rescued and no longer subject to his abuse. - I feel like, man, it... So, how long does someone do time for something like that? Is he still behind bars? - Man, he's gonna be getting close. I think he got 25 years. - 25 years as well as the wife, or what?

- The wife got much less. The court found that she had kind of a diminished capacity and that he was taking advantage of her. So, she got less time. - That is so crazy. I have interviewed a group called the Child Rescue Coalition. - CRC, yeah, I know him well.

- I don't know if you're aware of that. - Bill Wiltsy, the founder of the CRC, is a former... - Is that who we interviewed? Is that who we interviewed? - Yeah, CRC. - But, like, who was the lady? - I think her dad was the founder. Carly was her dad.

- I know Bill. I know Glenn Pounder. - Bill, we talked on the phone once. - Yeah, so he was a detective in Albany, Oregon before he went and founded the CRC. Good group. I've worked with many of them. I think I heard you talk about that on one of your other podcasts.

- Yeah, so they were just telling me the technology they use to kind of go into the dark web and these places on the internet that are kind of hard to reach and they'll find all the information. Where the traffickers think things are untraceable, they can get that information.

And they kind of were talking about how they will give all this information to the police of even like straight up like addresses, like go investigate this place. But it's kind of like, it's not on the back burner, but the police force, like there's not enough people working this specific issue.

So a lot of cases are dragged out and just kind of like got to when they can get to 'em. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - Do you feel like enough is being done for this specific issue? - Absolutely not, I definitely don't think so. And I know exactly what you're talking about.

So we can take a photo down into what we call a hash ID, which is if you just think of a fingerprint that we can identify that photo from any other photo, right? And so that's with this alphanumeric code. And so one of the things that CRC does is they'll track who's trading these images of CSAM, right?

And so it's millions. So cops don't have enough time to work it. So if you're in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and you get a lead that one guy had three images of CSAM on his computer on November 9th, like is that the priority or is it the robbery at the gas station that's going on right now?

You know what I mean? - Yeah. - With, and I don't mean this to be political at all, but with the defund the police movement and taking funds away from cops, they didn't take it away from patrol units. They took it away from specialized units. - Right. - Because that's what's expendable.

'Cause what the community expects is you to respond when I call, right? That's number one job. Now this three CSAM image thing, that can be gotten to later, right? - Yeah. - So when the police department shrunk, they took from all those specialized units, drug units, child exploitation units, all those things to fill in the patrol jobs.

So it really took it away from the specialized things and we don't have enough people to go out and do it. - Man, that's crazy. Yeah, when they were showing me the technology, like she was showing me in her computer how she could type in Denver and it shows all the dots or whatever where some stuff is going on that police haven't necessarily got to yet.

But she was typing in every city and I was like, man, this is crazy. And she would just show me the scale of how big this problem is. - And so we triaged those cases though, right? - Yeah. - I'll tell you a good story that will make you feel better, right?

We had an undercover agent in North Carolina. He was on a chat room and engaged with a guy who said he was abusing his two-year-old daughter and sent the undercover pictures of it. So you have to go through a lot of steps from you have a name of someone online to getting to doing a search warrant on their house, right?

So you have to figure out what internet service provider is funding this person who's chatting, right? Get their name, do background on them, all those kind of things. Well, we found out that that guy was in Oregon. So he sends it out to us. So then we have to do a search warrant application, go to judges, go to all those kind of things.

We did all that, arrested the guy, rescued his daughter. She was wearing the same clothes that she was in when she was abused. It took seven hours and 26 minutes to get from when he abused her and sent the picture for him to be in handcuffs and her to be in the back of a police car.

So it does work, but we have to triage those, right? That is the allegation of a child actively being abused and everybody dropped everything, right? When it's, you know, this 19 year old kid has three images of 17 year olds on his computer that are actually CSAM because they're under 18.

Like that's not gonna get investigated. It's not gonna be gone out on. But that's again, where you can play with statistics. - On average, when you do catch these guys, like I feel like that sentence should be a while. Is it normally like a long time? Like that's a- - My biggest sentence was 270 years.

- What was that for specifically? - This guy abused several young children the youngest of which were two years old and he would torture them. So just think of like the worst prisoner of war movie torturing somebody, he would do that to two-year-old babies and then rape them. - That's crazy.

I can't believe people like that exist. I always think that no human being in their rational mind, I don't know if you're a religious person. - I am. - But I feel like that's almost like, that's a demonic activity. Like you can't do that as a rational human. You gotta have like a demon in you or something, I think.

Like the stuff that you see would make me lose hope for some of these people. But I look at some of these people and I almost feel bad because it's like you, how did you get to this point where that's like pleasurable to you? You know what I mean?

- Yeah, yeah. I have no clue and I'll tell you what does give you hope is getting to see victims, survivors of this abuse come out of it and be better people. And I've seen that and that's really inspiring. Cat is a beautiful example of somebody coming out of abuse and turning things around.

It doesn't happen enough and most of them, most of them, it torments them their whole lives and they always struggle with those demons. - Yeah, man, so you watched the Cat episode and I asked her a lot of questions about this whole type of topic which she didn't really have answers for, that you do.

Were there any things that you had to do that you do, were there anything in that interview that you kind of want to touch on in terms of like, yeah, that you saw or the questions that were asked? - So first of all, the first thing I thought was I wanted to give her a hug, right?

And be like, hey, I'm sorry if law enforcement let you down. I'm sorry if you perceive the law enforcement let you down and that's never our intent. But one of the things that I saw in that interview was like when she actually finally did go and tell the police and they asked her for a written statement that she didn't want to provide a written statement.

She wasn't at that point yet in her healing and I get that, right? For police officers that are investigating sex trafficking, oftentimes a victim survivor will be being re-victimized by somebody new before they can even file charges on the first person that victimized them. And then they don't cooperate.

They don't show up for court. They don't do this. So it's frustrating for those cops 'cause they want to do the right thing. They want to put somebody in jail. They want to get the victim services. But because of what those victims got going on in their lives and their minds and those things, they're just not able to put themselves in that situation.

They find themselves back in drugs, back in being trafficked, all those things. So it's almost like this revolving door and it's really difficult for police officers. And so they really have to lock somebody in on their statement and they're like, hey, this is what you're gonna testify to. You're gonna show up for court, right?

Because how many times can you get burned and somebody get let off and then you're just throwing your hands up? Like, what do you do? - Yeah. Yeah, that's, I mean, so they, so it's better if they can pretty much cooperate in- - It's huge. And I had, it was a really weird case.

I got asked to do an undercover deal with a girl who was being trafficked. And I knew her. I knew her mom and I knew her grandma. And so- - So you had to act like you were gonna buy this girl that you knew pretty much? - I had back out of it.

I couldn't do it. - Yeah, you had just had someone else do it? - Yeah, and so we ended up contacting her, interviewing her. She's doing really well right now. But you could see the progression of just her going from one abuser to another abuser to another abuser. And how many times her family tried to pull her out and took her away from it and she would just slide back to it.

- Yeah. Yeah, when I was talking to Kat, what really caught my attention was the fact that, you know, the dude who was doing the selling, he got caught. All those men with weird fetishes that buy these young women, they, a lot of times, get away with it. And they could be just regular married guys with a family at home that are showing up to, you know, a hotel room to molest a kid or whatever.

Is there a lot of so-called like normal people with normal lives that are involved in this type of stuff? - So, and one of the reasons that's so difficult is because once we know a 14-year-old's being trafficked, we have to do everything to stop it, right? It's not like you can see how many.

And so, the amount of, you know, different layers they put to protect themselves on who they trafficked the person to versus the protections that the people who the 14-year-old got trafficked to took, it makes it really hard to go back and do those. - To retrace kind of the conversation they had with what people?

- Yeah, and, you know, having, you know, been undercover as someone who's purchasing that, it's just so sad. Like, it was funny, like, I would just sit in a room and talk to 'em. Like, you know, it's like $300 for an hour or whatever. And they wanted to do everything but have sex.

And if they thought they could get away with just talking to you for an hour, they would just be like, this is, you know, easy money. - So, you had to talk to the children? - Yeah, the girls, like, as an undercover. But, so, a lot of times when you, you know, identify yourself as police, all those kind of things, then they clam up.

But if you're a John and you're just sitting there and you're asking them about their life, then they're willing to tell you anything to not have to perform a sex act. So, they'll sit there and talk to you. So, it's a completely consensual conversation. So, there's no rights violations or anything like that.

So, I would try to get as much, if we're gonna meet with, you know, girls that night, why don't I sit in the room with 'em and talk to 'em for 30 or 45 minutes and see how much information I can gain from them before the police come in and they arrest the pimp outside, all those kind of things.

Because she might be more willing to tell me a lot of information. Or if not, I can get a lot of information. But then when she's interviewed by a forensic specialist, then they're gonna be able to use a lot of that information and have a lot more knowledge when they try to engage with her and get her services.

- So, as an undercover agent, why can't you, you know, meet with these children that you, is this talking to 'em in person or is it online? - In person. - So, like, why can't you just walk into a room and see that this guy has these children and on the spot?

- So, they do it all, it's like all outcalls. So, we'll either set up a house or a hotel room and those kind of things. The child will come to the front door. There's a car sitting, you know, three blocks away. You got a surveillance team watching that. Bring the kid in.

And then you have to make sure that they're there to, you know, perform a sex act. - You have to, like, get certified proof. - Right, so you're just making all those steps. And so, my thought when doing that was, like, why not get as much information while I can?

'Cause the car's sitting there outside, like, nothing's gonna happen, so. - Dang, that is crazy to me. I had a 16-year-old girl with a pistol in her pocket. I was pretty sure she was gonna try to rob me, so. - Really? - Yeah. - Dude, that is a crazy job to work in, like, that is.

Do you have a lot of trauma, like, now about that? Or it just, like, not? - I don't have a lot of trauma about it. I know a lot of people who have done what I do have a lot of trauma. I feel fortunate. I feel like I have a great family.

I have great friends that understand what I go through. - Yeah, we need people like you, you know what I mean? Like, if there was no guys like you willing to put themselves in these situations, you know, we wouldn't rescue these kids in the first place. What is your thought on corrupt cops?

Is there, or corrupt, like, special agents? I've always wondered that because, like, you know, you hear the stories about the same guys that are supposed to be, you know, saving people are also involved in the same thing that they're trying to help, or whatever. Is that common, or no?

Have you seen that? - I've never seen that. I mean, I've seen corruption. Like, you know, I work for the Treasury Department and see people that would, you know, inappropriately access IRS data, or whatever, you know, on their ex-spouse, or something like that, right? That's corruption. I haven't seen any widespread corruption.

I know that it occurs. I'm not naive to that fact. In the federal government, I think it happens way, way less than in certain, like, local police departments. I know people in local police departments where there has been some widespread corruption. And it's disheartening, it becomes a culture. With the federal government, the prerequisites in getting into it, the amount of training, the amount of moving around, the amount of just time it takes to get it done, is, I think, you know, restrictive.

A lot of smaller police departments, you know, they're hiring somebody for $40,000 a year. Federal agents make it $120,000 a year, you know? So, it's a lot easier to fall into corruption when you're in tough times yourself. - Yeah. I mean, yeah. I totally agree with that. What is the way that these people communicate to where it's untraceable?

Is it through the door? 'Cause I think a lot of people have these, like, these thoughts about the dark web. Like, what can you communicate on with someone to where you can never be traced? - So, the dark web was, do you know why the dark web exists? - I mean, I'll say is I've gotten on the dark web before I had a brother who somehow downloaded the server.

I'm not a tech-savvy dude, but he somehow got me on the dark web. And, like, the stuff that was accessible on there, and the links you could click, it was crazy. - Drugs, fake IDs, girls, all that kind of stuff. - It was the craziest stuff. Like, I remember clicking one link where it was just, like, I just wanted to see.

It was, like, I think it was, like, there was all these different links, and one of them was, like, videos about, I don't even know, suicide videos, just stuff that could never be on the regular internet, or it might be, like, torturing videos, or, you know, you can buy, like, guns or whatever it is.

But I couldn't believe the stuff that was on there. But is that the avenue these guys use to communicate, or what? - I would say probably less than 50% of 'em use the dark web. The dark web was created by the US government. And what it was created for was to allow, like, dissidents in Iran or in China to be able to communicate without it being traced or intercepted by those foreign governments, right?

So that's why it was created, and you have your user, and then you have these nodes that it goes through. Like, it's complicated. But the biggest way, and probably something we haven't even touched on yet, is these people are acting, is on online platforms where kids are at. They're stalking kids on, you know, all these different, you know, I don't wanna throw any certain one out there, but there's all these different pages, you know, where kids congregate and they stay things and do things.

And that's where they're going, and they're getting kids to produce material. And one of the biggest trends, one of the biggest upsetting things is what's called sextortion, which is getting a kid to take a nude photo, pretending to be a kid their same age and be in love with them.

And then they send the photo, and then they find out that that's an adult male. And now that they have one nude photo, they say, "I'm gonna send this to all your friends, "everybody in your school. "Gonna give it to your parents, your church, "if you don't take more nude photos for me." And so then they force these kids into abusing themselves for their pleasure on these online platforms.

- Dang, yeah. I remember talking to the CRC and they were like, you know, these guys will even go on, say, like a Fortnite video game or whatever it is where kids just get on and, you know, get cool with them, make them feel comfortable, and then the, like, stuff can start to happen.

- I, I'll tell a personal story. I have, in my family, we call, my cousin's kids call me uncle, and I call them my nieces and nephews. Probably about 15 years ago, I got a call from my niece and said that there's a creepy guy at my house. So it's like eight o'clock in the morning.

I grab my gun, jump in my truck, head to her house. Nobody's there. I go knock on the door. She opens the door. I talk to her and I say, "What's going on?" She's like, "I met this guy online." And I was like, "Why does he know your address?" She's like, "Well, I gave him my address." And I'm like, "Oh, first problem, right?" And, you know, this guy had started out pretending he was, like, 26, and she was, like, 17 or whatever, 16.

And so they started this relationship. Well, by the time it got to the end when he showed up at the house, it's a 53-year-old dude, and she doesn't let him in. And so I'm talking to her, and she gets a message from the guy. And he says, "It's okay, baby.

"We can just have phone sex instead." And so I was like, "No, tell him to come back. "Tell him you were in the shower and come back." So this six-foot-three, 350-pound, 53-year-old shows up at my aunt's door to have sex with my 16-year-old niece. - And you got him right there.

- Oh, yeah. Yeah, we had a talk. I called the police, and while we waited for them to come, we had a discussion about how sorry he was. And I told him, "Yeah, you're only sorry "'cause you got caught." - And he went to jail? - Yeah. - Dang, man.

Did she say how her and that dude met? - It was on just an internet chat program. But no matter who you are, this is where kids are getting abused, is by people they trust, right? And pedophiles are creating trust online to abuse your kids. - Have you ever had to shoot one of these dudes?

- No, I've never shot anybody in my life. - Really? - Yeah. - You're lucky. - Yep. - Yeah, our team security was telling me a story, 'cause they also, the guy that does our team security also had to do some undercover stuff just here in Denver with like normal, I don't think it was, it definitely wasn't child trafficking, but it was prostitution, and he would, you know, undercover, like he was meeting up with these girls, and then he would, same type of thing, and he was telling me some of those stories.

So yeah, I bet there's some crazy situations you ran into. - There are, there are. - Well, how old are you now? - I'm 50 years old. - So you were just, this is time to give this up. - Well, I became eligible to retire at 50. - Yeah.

- And so on the very first day I was eligible to retire, I retired, and I took three new jobs within 10 days of retiring. So I work for the Indomitian Sioux Family Foundation, and a company called, or a non-profit called Operation Light Shine, and Operation Light Shine works with the Thiebaud Foundation to build out centers and pay for cops to get the best technology, and to pay for the salaries of cops to work together in collaboration centers to combat the problem of child exploitation.

And then I took a job with a private company who does facial recognition technology, and through my career I can absolutely say that I'm aware of over 1,000 children that were identified by using this technology. And so I was really excited to get to go work for that company too.

- Yeah, that's awesome. Is there any, 'cause my big thing that I like to talk about is just the things that go on in this world, the conspiracy theories, I guess is what you would say. Is there any that you are kind of like knowledgeable or passionate about, or some things that you didn't really get to speak on during your career that you can tell us about, or things like that?

- No. - Things that'll blow our mind? - No. - The world is what it seems. - No, it isn't, but there's none that I can comment on. - But there's things you know? - Yes, absolutely. - You just can't talk about 'em for, what, more safety on your family's side, or is it things that you just-- - No, it's ongoing.

- Oh, ongoing things. - Investigation, yeah, yeah. - Got you. - Yeah. - Well, when it's not, well, I need to hear, I need to hear stuff off camera. (laughing) But man, no, I really appreciate you getting on here. And you know, this, as someone who this issue, for some reason, it's always kind of like, it's something that's kind of touched my heart.

I appreciate you doing your job and helping so many people, and kind of sharing your story. And yeah, man, I wish you all the best in retirement. I wish you, you know, a lot of peace, and a lot of joy in the rest of your life. - I appreciate it.

- Yeah, man, is there anything else you wanna get off your chest? Or I feel like we covered a lot. I feel like that-- - Yeah, if you ever wanna have me back, if you come up with like, 10 more guests, and you got questions that you wanna kind of wrap back around to, or maybe some of these investigations we can get over with, and we can talk again.

- 100% man, thank you. Curious Mike out. (upbeat music) Thank you, bro. - Wait, I have some questions. One, the guy that was abusing the two-year-olds, how did he get two-year-olds? - Mom was an alcoholic and a prostitute. She would go out and drink and run tricks, and he offered to stay back there with her babies, two-year-olds.

- He would just like, babysit people's kids? 'Cause it wasn't just those kids. - Just her kids. Like, he kind of had like, a friendship relationship with her. He actually did kidnap one girl off of a playground outside of his apartment building and abuse her, but then he let her go, and she went home and didn't tell anybody.

So we only knew that he did it because of the pictures. He abused the nine-year-old older sister of the two-year-olds. He would feed her, like, cough syrup, and get her to fall asleep, and then abuse her. I forget who else he abused, but-- - Oh, it was so disgusting.

- Did you hear about the Drake and Josh documentary? The Nickelodeon, have you seen that? - I haven't seen it yet. - The Nickelodeon documentary, just about how many of those dudes, and how many of those dudes in that, that man, they were, like, the guy at Drake and Josh, that dude was getting molested.

But like, a lot of 'em in Nickelodeon were like, doing that to these kids on these child shows. It was like a big thing. Like, a lot of these kids are messed up now. - How is it that? - That's why I think it's so much bigger. Like, that's why I think there's higher things that are running some weird organized ring type stuff.

- I wonder if it's organized, or if they just like-- - Hunter Biden. - That's the son of Joe Biden, right? You wanna know a crazy story about him? - Yeah. - This dude, 'cause I know a girl, right, who was telling me about these sex parties in L.A.

This dude got kicked out of this sex party in L.A. She was telling me, kind of, what goes on, how they're doing, like, all this. You walk from room to room, and you see different celebrities, and different politicians. You know, a lot of 'em have the masks on. But, you know, the girl I was talking to is pretty famous, and she was telling me what goes on at these sex parties in L.A.

That same dude, Hunter Biden, was at the same one, and he got kicked out of the sex party, or the sex, like, club, because he, I guess one of the rules is you have to ask before you touch, and he was, like, disrespecting the women in there, or whatever.

But, yeah, that's a bad guy right there. Yeah, he is, and he's got some younger people than were 18 on the list there, too. - Really? - Yeah. - Okay, I have more questions. 'Cause you were in the Pacific Northwest, right? - Yes, ma'am. - This guy that I knew, 'cause at the time I had a boyfriend up there, and his father worked at his church.

He worked at the church. He worked with, like, college-age students. Like, he was, like, a seemingly great guy. Had a YouTube talking about God, talking about Jesus, da-da-da-da-da. - A year or two now ago, he got arrested for, have you heard of Isaac Chirac? He got arrested for trafficking girls into Seattle.

He was, like, someone, like, we kicked it with. Like, we knew him. He was, like, normal, nice, like, worshiped Jesus. - Really? - Yes. - I arrested a guy who, he molested his daughter. She was, like, 10 or 11. He got sent to prison for 10 years. He got out, joined a church, got on the missionary group for the church, went to Africa, found a lady there to marry who had two daughters and started abusing both of her daughters in Kenya.

- So people just really use the church as a cover, which leads me to my last question. Why do you think it's so prevalent with, like, Catholic priests? - I have no clue. Like, I think that's just child rape. You know what I mean? I don't think they're filming it, they're doing anything.

I haven't had any investigations into the Catholic church, but I totally agree with you. And I think it's just, like, once that kind of infection starts and you keep those people on and they bring on other people, it's like, just, uh-- - So do you think it's like-- - You're right, though, bro, it is the porn, because, like, you get desensitized to normal stuff and you need weird stuff.

And then, I bet you that's how a lot of this stuff happens. - Also, like, the Catholic priest, do you think that there's a part of it that's, like, because of the job where they're not allowed to get married, they're not allowed to have sex with women? - Yeah, it is.

They, they, they-- - Yeah. - It's gotta be, they can't-- - It's gotta be. - Yeah, it's gotta be. They're supposed to be celibate for life, but those people who are supposed to be celibate, they end up doing wild stuff. - Yeah. That's always the most wild ones are the ones that are the quietest, shy ones.

- It's just wild to me that this is such a, like, you would think this is, like, a freak issue that only, like, a very few number of people deal with, but, like you said, it's just so widespread and I think that's the scariest part. - Oh. - Like, our.

- That was good, man. I thought it was good. What'd you think, Cedric? - Yeah, I thought it was good. I thought you, I thought it was, like, super natural to just blow everything up. - Yeah, I did too. Good, good, good. - You're good at talking. - Oh, try being an undercover for a few years.

- Oh yeah, you gotta-- - You gotta, like, bullshit yourself out of a few situations. - Give your P's and Q's. - I have something that's called essential tremor syndrome. It's been getting worse as I get older, so I'll shake. - Yeah. - And, uh, and so, when I'm under a lot of stress, it gets really bad.

Like, it'll be really noticeable. And so, I had to, I had to buy a bunch of fentanyl last year. So I had to go meet this dude to buy, you know, a couple thousand pills of fentanyl. And I'm like, fuck, I'm just gonna be shaking like a motherfucker. So I'm texting with him beforehand.

I'm like, hey dude, I can't do this shit 'cause I have early onset Parkinson's and it'll fuck with my medication, stuff like that. And I just threw it in this, like, subtle text. And so then, when I went, I noticed myself shaking. I'm like, it's fucking Parkinson's, man. This shit's gonna be bad.

And I'm just like, it's not, it's not Parkinson's at all, but it's like, you know what I mean? Let me use my weakness as my strength. Like, who's thinking that somebody's gonna be at the top and has Parkinson's? - Right. - Right. - Nah, dude, I bet it is crazy having to work undercover and just, like, put on that persona.

Like, you're one of these freaks, you know? - Yes. - Like, they have to watch every minute of it. - You're literally an actor. You're like a professional actor. - I would just take confessions that I got 'cause I love to do interviews. I would interview, and so I had a bunch of people that I interviewed and they would confess everything to me and tell me all about it.

Like, the guy from Africa, he confessed everything. - Yeah. - And so I would just make their story my own. And I would just, that would be my story.