Bogleheads® Chapter Series – Mad Fientist Discusses Financial Independence

00:00:00.000 | Welcome to the Bogleheads Chapter Series.

00:00:04.120 | This episode was hosted by the Bogleheads Starting Out Life Stage Chapter and recorded

00:00:08.400 | August 30th, 2021.

00:00:11.340 | It features the blogger Matt Fientist discussing achieving the dream of financial independence.

00:00:17.820 | Bogleheads are investors who follow John Bogle's philosophy for attaining financial independence.

00:00:22.800 | This recording is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment

00:00:26.880 | advice.

00:00:29.600 | Brandon, great to see you.

00:00:31.280 | Thanks a lot for having me.

00:00:34.440 | Thanks for being here.

00:00:36.060 | We are so grateful that you're taking the time.

00:00:38.560 | A lot of folks know that you were a software developer, you retired at 34, having reached

00:00:43.560 | financial independence.

00:00:45.280 | So we're going to talk about the highs and lows of financial independence, but also get

00:00:50.600 | to know you as a person, talk about some of your influences, how you've evolved during

00:00:57.680 | early retirement, and wherever the conversation takes us.

00:01:01.060 | So I want to be sensitive to some of the audience knowing your material really well, both written

00:01:06.600 | and podcast, and some of the audience being less familiar.

00:01:10.020 | So we'll navigate that balance so as to not be too redundant, as well as to not address

00:01:17.800 | what you're known for and specialized about.

00:01:21.620 | So again, as Miriam mentioned, we have a national audience here from coast to coast.

00:01:27.080 | And for the audience, you and I will chat for about an hour.

00:01:30.040 | And then during the chat, we're collecting, the team is collecting questions via the chat

00:01:35.720 | function.

00:01:37.120 | And we'll address those after your and my conversation concludes.

00:01:43.840 | So with that, I also want to encourage folks who aren't yet familiar with Brandon's website

00:01:48.960 | to read the blogs, listen to the podcast, there's so much there.

00:01:54.720 | A lot of it might sound familiar, covered in the space, but a lot of it is uniquely

00:02:00.000 | Brandon or med-scientist related, a lot of tax efficiency stuff.

00:02:03.960 | And Brandon has also been a guest on other podcasts like Choose FI and Afford Anything

00:02:08.880 | so you can find additional insights from Brandon as a guest, not just on his podcast.

00:02:17.000 | With that, let's dive in.

00:02:20.200 | Anything you want to say before we get started, Brandon?

00:02:22.120 | No, no.

00:02:23.120 | Looking forward to it.

00:02:24.120 | Excellent.

00:02:25.120 | So we'll begin with something that you often end with on your podcast, which is you ask

00:02:31.720 | your guests who are leaders in the FI space or often the self-improvement space, you ask

00:02:37.360 | them what's one piece of financial advice you would give towards financial independence.

00:02:42.960 | So I ask you that question.

00:02:44.480 | Yeah.

00:02:45.480 | Well, yeah, that's a question I love to ask because there's so many different answers

00:02:48.800 | I've gotten over the years.

00:02:49.920 | But for me, I would say experiment, which being the med-scientist, I probably wouldn't

00:02:56.080 | have said that when I started the med-scientist.

00:02:57.560 | So it's not me just saying that because it fits with my science theme or anything, but

00:03:02.840 | it's really the truth.

00:03:03.840 | Because if I've learned anything over the past 10 years of doing this and really thinking

00:03:09.400 | about it hard, it's that we're really bad at knowing what we really, really want.

00:03:14.520 | And the only way to find out is to try things, hopefully try them at a low cost, low commitment

00:03:22.000 | sort of situation so that you don't get yourself into a situation where you can't reverse that

00:03:27.040 | choice.

00:03:28.160 | But it's really about experimenting because especially for me, I'm a naturally frugal

00:03:34.960 | guy and spending has been a big focus of mine recently and after post-fi to figure out what

00:03:45.720 | is the best use of money.

00:03:47.960 | And now that it's not as tight anymore, what's actually going to make me happier and what's

00:03:54.440 | not really going to move the needle and things like that.

00:03:56.360 | So yeah, experimenting and just realizing that you don't have to be right right away

00:04:02.320 | because you are probably pretty bad at actually figuring out what you really want to do or

00:04:07.240 | what you want to be or what you want to spend your money on.

00:04:09.920 | Excellent.

00:04:10.920 | Yeah, it's so great to hear.

00:04:13.040 | And there's so much there that I'd like for us to follow up on.

00:04:18.080 | One is when you say experiment, try it out.

00:04:21.280 | There are tons of people that we hear about who, whether they're planning for financial

00:04:25.520 | independence, early retirement, or just retirement in general, they dream about this next phase

00:04:31.640 | of life, they plan the savings part of it, but then when they get there, they're kind

00:04:37.280 | of absent the social structure or interaction or meaning.

00:04:41.120 | How do you suggest people, building on what you said about experimenting, how do you suggest

00:04:46.200 | people fill that void in advance?

00:04:48.880 | Sure.

00:04:49.880 | Yeah.

00:04:50.880 | No.

00:04:51.880 | So I'm sure a lot of people out there are probably similar to what I was, where I blamed

00:04:54.960 | my job for the reason I wasn't living the life that I thought would make me happiest

00:04:59.000 | and wasn't doing the things that I thought I really wanted to do with my life.

00:05:02.360 | Like it was such an easy scapegoat.

00:05:04.680 | And only after leaving the job and then trying to do all those things that I thought I wanted

00:05:10.000 | to do, I realized it wasn't my job holding me back.

00:05:13.200 | I was very lucky.

00:05:14.200 | I was a software developer and the technologies I used allowed me to be very productive very

00:05:19.840 | quickly.

00:05:20.840 | So I could get my work done.

00:05:21.840 | And a quarter of the time that some other teams that I worked amongst were able to do

00:05:26.880 | it.

00:05:27.880 | But the timescales were never tight and I had plenty of free time.

00:05:32.160 | So it was only once that I removed that easy scapegoat, did I realize that actually I could

00:05:38.480 | have been doing all of these things with a job and I would have then not had to also

00:05:46.120 | try to figure out all these crazy post-fi things that come up that you never even expect

00:05:50.520 | because I would have still been working.

00:05:52.680 | So yeah, I would say one, yeah, just try to remove the easy scapegoats of your job and

00:06:00.720 | start trying to do these things that you really think you're going to do post-fi because one,

00:06:06.440 | some things aren't big enough to really get you out of the bed in the morning.

00:06:09.720 | Like I remember I thought like, oh, I'll learn a new language and then that way when we travel

00:06:14.600 | to wherever in the world, I'll be able to, you know, know this new language is going

00:06:18.840 | to be amazing.

00:06:20.400 | You know, like when you don't have anyone forcing you to get out of bed in the morning

00:06:23.960 | to conjugate verbs, it's harder to force yourself to do that and you're not exactly leaping

00:06:30.240 | out of bed to do that either.

00:06:33.280 | So the more you can like get started on these things while you're still in the grind, the

00:06:38.000 | daily grind, I think the way better off you're going to be because one, you're going to have

00:06:41.880 | momentum, you're going to sort of like come across these challenges that have nothing

00:06:46.800 | to do with your job earlier and start to work through them and realize, hey, actually it's

00:06:50.920 | not my job that's holding me back.

00:06:52.160 | It's for me, like personally, it was my self-doubt and some of the artistic things I wanted to

00:06:56.240 | do.

00:06:57.240 | And yeah, if you, if you just start early and don't think like, I think the other problem

00:07:03.280 | is like, it's like for me back then it was a finish line.

00:07:07.200 | Everything was going to be great after that finish line and everything wasn't working

00:07:11.760 | prior to that finish line.

00:07:13.680 | And I think that was the definitely wrong way to do it.

00:07:16.040 | I think the more you can view it as just a spectrum where every dollar you're saving

00:07:20.520 | is adding to that power that you have to, you know, take more time off or follow that

00:07:26.080 | passion projects to another level and things like that.

00:07:29.720 | I think the better off you'll be and then the less crazy FI or post-FI life would be

00:07:36.140 | after because it's not going to be just like flipping a switch.

00:07:39.200 | It's going to be this gradual progression into, oh, actually now I have the power to

00:07:43.540 | have unlimited free time and now I know how to deal with that and use it properly because

00:07:48.360 | I've practiced along the way as I've incrementally got more free time.

00:07:52.080 | So that's, that's how I would view it just as a spectrum, not as a goal line.

00:07:56.360 | Excellent.

00:07:57.360 | Yeah.

00:07:58.360 | That makes a lot of sense.

00:07:59.360 | It reminds me of someone interviewed Michael Phelps and in, I think one of the Olympic

00:08:04.760 | runs his goggles failed and water got in his eyes and he had to do the whole thing closed

00:08:10.200 | with eyes closed and they interviewed him after and said, how was he able to perform

00:08:14.220 | at such a high level?

00:08:15.220 | And he said, he did that in his head over and over again.

00:08:18.420 | So it reminds me of how you're saying prepare.

00:08:21.180 | So following up on a few of the things you mentioned, so you mentioned passion project.

00:08:25.440 | I think your followers will know that you pursued FI to record and release your own

00:08:31.900 | music and you were able to do that.

00:08:33.780 | So huge congrats again there.

00:08:36.540 | And you know, I know you're, you're modest.

00:08:40.080 | So I'll let folks know that the release went really well and had success on the charts.

00:08:44.980 | Why don't you tell us a bit more about that?

00:08:47.540 | How it was to pursue this lifelong goal and you know, how's it been since?

00:08:52.900 | Yeah.

00:08:53.900 | Yeah.

00:08:54.900 | So you mentioned the charts and like, I'd love to, I'd love that to be because the music

00:08:58.060 | was so amazing and it just got played on radio everywhere.

00:09:00.980 | Actually it was just the mad scientist audience had grown so big over 10 years and I'd never

00:09:04.500 | asked them to do anything.

00:09:05.600 | And I asked them to buy the album and they, and thousands of them did.

00:09:09.440 | And yeah, it was a ridiculous, a ridiculous one week on the charts.

00:09:13.360 | And then it was, yeah, that was, that was done.

00:09:16.440 | But yeah, that was, yeah, that was the main goal.

00:09:18.920 | That was again, like I've, I've mentioned a bit earlier that I blamed my job for holding

00:09:23.680 | me back on that for so long.

00:09:26.340 | But it was only once I quit my job and had all the time in the world to pursue it that

00:09:29.920 | I realized it was way more than that.

00:09:32.360 | It was, it was really just a ton of self doubt.

00:09:35.320 | I never thought I could actually do it.

00:09:37.220 | So I was not even trying to do it because I thought if I tried and then failed, I'd

00:09:42.800 | lose the dream forever.

00:09:45.160 | But and I never wanted to do that because I was like, I really need to write and release

00:09:49.580 | an album one day.

00:09:52.380 | So I didn't want to lose the dream.

00:09:54.000 | But trying every time I tried, just made it so much more evident that I would never actually

00:09:59.080 | be able to do it.

00:10:00.080 | So that's why I just put off doing it.

00:10:01.160 | So I never made progress.

00:10:03.000 | And it took me till three and a half years after I left my job, before, you know, I finally

00:10:10.320 | got fed up.

00:10:11.320 | And I was like, look, this is the whole reason I was wanting to have all this free time.

00:10:15.600 | And in the first years after leaving my job, I filled it with, you know, Mad Fientist stuff,

00:10:19.720 | I filled it with fun stuff, I was saying yes to everything, because I couldn't have all

00:10:23.560 | this time.

00:10:24.560 | And I was like, I need to just really get serious about this.

00:10:28.640 | And it was brutal.

00:10:30.760 | But I, it was actually Atomic Habits by James Clear.

00:10:34.360 | I read his book, got to speak to him on my podcast, which was amazing.

00:10:39.600 | And it was that coupled with another book called Ultra Learning.

00:10:46.720 | And then there was a music specific one that I, it was just an ebook, but it was actually

00:10:51.200 | phenomenal.

00:10:52.560 | So if any musicians out there care, I'll send you a link to that, because it's not a very

00:10:57.160 | big book.

00:10:58.160 | But it was very instrumental in me actually making progress.

00:11:03.320 | And all of that at the end of the day, just boiled down to like putting in the time.

00:11:07.600 | So sitting in the chair and being uncomfortable and just forcing yourself to do that.

00:11:12.120 | And trying to not focus on what you produce by the end of that day.

00:11:16.480 | Just focusing on okay, I put five hours into the chair, and it was all mostly productive,

00:11:22.000 | you know, like, I would lose confidence, I would lose willpower.

00:11:25.240 | And by the end of the day, I was like watching YouTube tutorials, which, you know, was not

00:11:29.200 | really productive, but I could sort of make it seem productive for my five hours, at least.

00:11:35.480 | So anyway, it took all of that.

00:11:36.920 | And then the pandemic hit.

00:11:40.800 | And then I just locked myself inside for 15 months, because Scotland was very locked down.

00:11:47.040 | My wife's Scottish, and we live in Edinburgh, or we did at that time.

00:11:50.640 | And just locked myself inside, and never truly believed that I would do it.

00:11:56.840 | And until it came out, and still don't really believe it.

00:12:00.480 | But I listened to it.

00:12:01.480 | And I'm like, I'm really proud of it.

00:12:04.360 | It was definitely the most challenging thing I've ever tried to do.

00:12:08.720 | And it meant so much to me.

00:12:09.840 | So yeah, you'll listen to it.

00:12:10.840 | It's not like Grammy Award winning stuff.

00:12:12.600 | It's like my weird, like synthesizer, like experimental synth pop stuff that I loved

00:12:17.760 | growing up.

00:12:18.760 | So it's a really weird genre of music.

00:12:21.560 | But it's, yeah, my only goal line was that I was comfortable enough with it to release

00:12:28.640 | it.

00:12:29.800 | And I did.

00:12:30.800 | So that it's, that was the highlight, and was the whole reason I wanted to pursue Phi

00:12:37.040 | in the first place.

00:12:38.040 | And like I said before, I didn't actually need to be Phi to do it.

00:12:41.240 | But I sort of did as well, because that took away all my excuses.

00:12:44.360 | Yeah.

00:12:45.360 | Well, congrats again on achieving that.

00:12:47.320 | It's tremendous.

00:12:48.360 | And I'm not typically a synth pop listener, but absolutely enjoyed your music.

00:12:54.160 | So thanks again for getting it out there.

00:12:56.680 | So a few things.

00:12:59.400 | One is a lot of folks in the Fi space, you know, we'll talk about, of course, saving

00:13:04.120 | and investing and reducing your living expenses and increasing your savings rate.

00:13:08.360 | And I think folks, you know, interested in pursuing it have a lot of access to that information.

00:13:14.080 | A more common underlying message that surfaces is a lot of this is about happiness, right?

00:13:21.220 | So can you elaborate on what happiness is, you know, like for you, or what success means

00:13:28.580 | to you?

00:13:29.580 | And for this audience, the Bogleheads famously are not defined by fancy house or fancy car,

00:13:34.600 | even though many of them could easily afford that, sometimes many times over.

00:13:39.040 | So yeah, what does success mean to you and how has it been in early retirement?

00:13:45.720 | Yeah.

00:13:46.720 | Well, success is to me, those personal wins, like I can think back over the last 10 years

00:13:53.160 | and the things I'm most proud of are things that, you know, I haven't shouted about or

00:13:57.040 | told, you know, anybody about really, and it's just those, like knowing how hard I worked

00:14:01.680 | on that album and all of the hurdles that I had to overcome that, like, that's what

00:14:06.520 | I'm super proud of.

00:14:07.520 | And getting on the Billboard charts for a week is funny and just adds to the ridiculousness

00:14:12.040 | of my life in a great way.

00:14:14.840 | Like it's so funny to think about every time I think about it, but that's nothing.

00:14:20.620 | It's thinking back at all those things that I had to overcome and yeah, happiness is a

00:14:26.600 | tricky one because I had a great comment on my last post and it was, I was sort of talking

00:14:35.160 | about happiness and like finding new sources of motivation after five, because people like

00:14:40.280 | me who think about money since I was a, you know, a kid, I was there, my parents were

00:14:44.920 | throwing quarters in the deep end of the pool and I would spend all day like finding money

00:14:48.440 | and I just loved it.

00:14:50.000 | So for somebody who's where money has been so important for so long, for now that to

00:14:54.000 | not matter anymore because I don't want the fancy house or the fancy cars or I don't want

00:14:59.040 | to waste money in any way and things like that.

00:15:01.720 | So that's been really interesting to try to come to grips with that and find new sources

00:15:06.720 | of motivation because now I don't have to do anything.

00:15:09.760 | And as I said in like my most recent post, it's like a lot of the really fun things have

00:15:15.000 | a lot of discomfort up front, but now that I don't have money driving me through that

00:15:21.920 | initial discomfort, I'm worried that I'm missing out on some like longer term fun in some areas

00:15:27.280 | just because, you know, I'm like, well, I don't want to do that.

00:15:30.360 | I don't have to do that because I don't need to earn another dollar or whatever.

00:15:33.600 | So yeah, happiness is a tricky one.

00:15:37.060 | And in that, so this goes back to the comment I was going to mention.

00:15:41.600 | So it was, I thought it was really insightful.

00:15:44.000 | The guy had said, I think as humans, we always need something to be uncomfortable with or

00:15:50.960 | unhappy about or striving for something better.

00:15:55.600 | And he brought up the fact that like, you know, there's a lot of maybe I'm not too big

00:16:01.200 | in the rest of the Phi community anymore just because I've been working on the music stuff.

00:16:05.840 | But apparently in the Phi community, there's lots of like divorces happening and things

00:16:09.600 | and people reach Phi and then, you know, they need that unhappiness.

00:16:15.560 | So they find it in their partner or things like that.

00:16:17.920 | And I can see how that happens because, you know, I could throw everything at my job and

00:16:24.540 | be like, that's why my boss is making me mad.

00:16:27.100 | My colleagues are making me mad and that's why I'm unhappy.

00:16:30.000 | But then when you can control everything and do whatever you want, then you either have

00:16:36.000 | to come to accept that, oh, it's just you that's finding those things to be unhappy

00:16:40.240 | about or angry about, or you, you know, sometimes sadly maybe put it on the person closest to

00:16:46.560 | you or the people around you.

00:16:49.640 | So yeah, so it's still one that I haven't figured out yet and I'm like, that's not to

00:16:56.420 | say like I feel so lucky and I'm definitely happier now having been able to pursue all

00:17:01.260 | these things that I've always wanted to and, you know, not have the stresses of money or

00:17:05.060 | worrying about, you know, the markets are tanking or anything like that.

00:17:09.560 | But yeah, it's not a golden ticket to just happiness and rainbows, which I think early

00:17:15.060 | me when I was pursuing it, I put that on FI, I was like, well, yeah, I'll be happy when

00:17:20.020 | I'm FI.

00:17:21.020 | So I'll just be miserable now and just grind it out.

00:17:23.900 | And again, going back to the advice that I was given earlier is like, yeah, don't put

00:17:29.600 | off happiness until the finish line either.

00:17:32.460 | Don't put off, you know, pursuing your things that you want to do.

00:17:35.100 | Don't put off thinking about what post FI life is going to look like because yeah, when

00:17:39.420 | you cross the finish line, it's just at the end of the day, it's just a slightly higher

00:17:42.660 | number on the screen and it really maybe is more anticlimactic than you may expect it

00:17:48.180 | to be.

00:17:49.180 | Got it.

00:17:50.180 | Yeah.

00:17:51.180 | Very insightful stuff.

00:17:52.420 | So two particular things.

00:17:54.380 | So let's say a two part question, one building on your comments.

00:17:58.840 | One is this concept of enough, right?

00:18:01.000 | You and I know people in the FI space and life in general who had earned a lot, can

00:18:06.940 | still earn a lot and really adjusted this mindset to just say, you know, any additional

00:18:13.760 | money has very little marginal value.

00:18:15.980 | Why, why am I needing to work or seeking work?

00:18:21.000 | But there are also people who either enjoy what they do.

00:18:24.080 | Maybe they're entrepreneurs or some people are paid really well, just like the rat race,

00:18:28.700 | but enjoy accumulating, enjoy watching their portfolios grow.

00:18:33.360 | And you know, within the FI community, there's this one more year syndrome, right?

00:18:37.900 | People don't feel comfortable.

00:18:39.520 | Can you elaborate on how you achieve this, I'll call it a Zen like state of you have

00:18:45.760 | enough, right?

00:18:46.760 | We know someone who, who says any additional money he gets, he gives to charity.

00:18:50.500 | And I just feel like that's such an enlightened state, right?

00:18:53.760 | Like we're socialized, like apart from societal influence on the importance of money, there's

00:18:59.260 | a practical importance.

00:19:00.740 | So that's one.

00:19:01.800 | And then the second you spoke about relationships and specifically in the FI community, can

00:19:07.160 | you elaborate on yours to the extent you're comfortable, what it's like being, because

00:19:11.660 | you mentioned publicly, Jill still works.

00:19:13.700 | She loves what she does.

00:19:16.180 | You guys converged in this journey and you know, what has that been like to be?

00:19:23.440 | And I'll talk about like gender roles or societal, you know, pressures or influences to be the,

00:19:28.460 | the spouse who's not working and to be a guy in, you know, not working in, in our society.

00:19:34.780 | Sure.

00:19:35.780 | Oh yeah.

00:19:36.780 | I really don't feel like I've reached any Zen like state sadly, but I'm more, I'm working

00:19:41.660 | towards it.

00:19:43.300 | Again, like I think the big thing for me was never feeling like I needed to impress anyone

00:19:49.380 | with money.

00:19:50.380 | And I think that just gives you such a huge advantage where like, I would rather people

00:19:53.020 | think I was poorer than I am because I just had a, you know, a middle-class upbringing

00:19:58.660 | like you know, like times were always tight and I, my identity is so tied to that.

00:20:05.360 | So to then either go into the next societal brackets you know, upper class or something

00:20:11.360 | would just be a total identity.

00:20:14.060 | I would just, yeah, I don't think my brain could handle it.

00:20:17.060 | So I'm always, so I'm lucky in that sense where I've never felt the need to impress

00:20:20.380 | people with flashy anything.

00:20:24.900 | I wouldn't say I'm Zen yet because you mentioned charity, like I still can't give money away.

00:20:33.780 | I'm not wasting it and that's why I have such a hard trouble spending it because I don't

00:20:37.820 | want to waste it.

00:20:38.900 | And I know one day I'm going to be at that stage where I can make better use of it.

00:20:44.220 | So in this meantime where I still have this psychological hangup, I, yeah, I just, I'm

00:20:51.760 | protecting it so that I don't waste it away and have some sort of lifestyle inflation

00:20:56.460 | that causes me to not to be able to give it away.

00:20:59.100 | But there's still part of me that I guess just has this scarcity mindset like, oh, like

00:21:04.460 | I got to keep it all just in case something really bad happens or, and I don't know where

00:21:09.220 | that comes from.

00:21:10.220 | Like I said, maybe it was because times were so tight growing up and I never felt like

00:21:14.620 | we were deprived of anything, but you know, there was, you know, every penny was accounted

00:21:18.700 | for and I still feel that in that my mindset hasn't caught up with the actual situation

00:21:23.980 | yet.

00:21:24.980 | So, so yeah, so a long way to go on the Zen part.

00:21:27.860 | To get to the spouse part, yes, my wife was complete opposite end of the spectrum for

00:21:32.980 | me.

00:21:33.980 | She wasn't, she never spent money to like impress other people.

00:21:37.620 | So I don't think it was like that far, but she never, she just didn't care about money.

00:21:40.960 | So if it was in their, her account, she would spend it and if it wasn't, she wouldn't want

00:21:45.260 | to think, think too much about it.

00:21:47.060 | Whereas I was like, you know, spreadsheets for everything and go into, you know, knowing

00:21:52.260 | what I bought at this store versus this store and all that stuff.

00:21:55.520 | So yeah, thankfully we've come together and she's a lot more conscious of spending and

00:22:01.520 | money and I'm not as crazy about it, which has worked out great.

00:22:07.240 | And as you said, she's, she loves her job.

00:22:09.500 | She's an optometrist.

00:22:10.860 | She can't think of anything else she'd want to do, but she's also seen the benefits of

00:22:15.980 | having savings.

00:22:16.980 | So to go to COVID at the beginning of the pandemic in Scotland, her thing, people weren't

00:22:25.660 | taking it as seriously as we felt needed to be, you know, things needed to be taken care

00:22:31.020 | of.

00:22:32.060 | So she was able to just say, look, I'm not, I'm just not coming in.

00:22:35.980 | And then she, yeah, she was off for the first three or four months of the pandemic because

00:22:40.700 | she was worried about giving this to her elderly patients and she didn't think the PPE was

00:22:44.780 | all in the right state.

00:22:45.940 | And then once that came back, she was able to go back.

00:22:48.500 | And then for the past like six months, we've been traveling to the States since we were

00:22:52.220 | finally able to, and we've been able to see friends and family.

00:22:56.980 | So she's obviously not worked that time.

00:22:58.820 | So she's seen the benefits of that.

00:23:02.900 | And obviously I've seen the benefits of not being so crazy with money.

00:23:06.480 | So thankfully we have met in the middle and I think we've both made each other better

00:23:10.660 | with our relationships with money.

00:23:13.380 | But as far as her working and me not, one, like this is going to sound crazy cause I'm,

00:23:21.220 | you know, I've been writing about financial independence on the internet since 2012, but

00:23:26.980 | I really don't like talking about it to people I know in real life.

00:23:30.620 | So I still just say I'm a software developer that works from home, which is technically

00:23:34.500 | true because I write software for the Mad Scientist website.

00:23:39.220 | But yeah, I feel really weird talking about that in person.

00:23:43.340 | So yeah, I'm at home, but I was at home before we, before I even hit FI and again, I don't

00:23:51.780 | think it bothers me that, even if that wasn't the case and I was, if all of our friends

00:23:59.840 | thought I was just unemployed and she was working, yeah, I don't know how I would feel

00:24:05.100 | about that.

00:24:06.100 | I don't think, I would hope I wouldn't care that much because again, like the things that

00:24:10.860 | drive me or the personal things that I accomplish that, you know, I still don't, I don't tell

00:24:16.380 | anybody, anybody about anyway.

00:24:19.740 | So I think I'd, I'd hope that I would be okay with that.

00:24:22.140 | But you know, like I said, it's harder to, reality is often way different than you imagine

00:24:28.100 | it would be.

00:24:29.100 | So yeah, but so far I haven't had any issue.

00:24:31.020 | Cause again, I just mostly tell people I'm a, I work from home for myself as a software

00:24:35.420 | developer.

00:24:36.420 | Excellent.

00:24:37.420 | Great to hear.

00:24:38.420 | So that spawns another two part question.

00:24:41.520 | One is COVID and I know historically you said you saved enough, but your, you know, passive

00:24:50.340 | income stream was sufficient that you didn't need to withdraw from your portfolio.

00:24:55.300 | And I know that this audience would be very curious about your withdrawal strategy.

00:25:00.260 | So maybe if you can elaborate, maybe during COVID you needed to test it or how you envision

00:25:06.280 | it if you haven't needed to test it.

00:25:08.620 | And then within the, you know, the actual FI experience, if you could talk more about

00:25:16.900 | the highs and lows of it.

00:25:18.220 | So what surprised you?

00:25:20.020 | Were you blindsided by anything?

00:25:21.700 | Were there some disappointing surprises and then some like phenomenal surprises you didn't

00:25:27.980 | even consider?

00:25:28.980 | Sure.

00:25:29.980 | So the first thing I haven't had to withdraw with Joe working and with the side income

00:25:36.180 | that has grown probably over the last three or four years, I guess when, whenever FI really

00:25:45.060 | took off, I guess that was maybe 2018 when it seemed to be in mainstream media and stuff.

00:25:50.320 | So then the MADFINES has started earning more income than we spend.

00:25:54.500 | So I can't speak to that.

00:25:55.500 | My plan was always to, you know, do the safe withdrawal rates, just I'd never imagined

00:26:02.540 | I would increase it with inflation as allowed for.

00:26:07.180 | I felt that I would be very flexible in my withdrawals.

00:26:12.500 | Since we don't have a lot of fixed costs, a lot of our spending is just discretionary.

00:26:17.300 | So the plan was to just tighten up and down years and then go back to three and a half

00:26:22.100 | percent was my floor withdrawal rates, but then 4% plus and better years potentially.

00:26:29.980 | So yeah, 3.5% was my target and that's still what I base all of our spending on now.

00:26:35.900 | I'm actually, like I said, I'm trying to loosen up with spending because I'm still the frugal

00:26:42.220 | college student I was 20 years ago and I'm trying to break out of that.

00:26:46.340 | I spoke to Ramit Sethi about that on my podcast and I'm hopefully going to get him back because

00:26:50.460 | I feel like I've made some strides in that slightly, but now I'm trying to force myself

00:26:57.180 | to spend that 3.5% withdrawal, which we've been shy of ever since we hit five.

00:27:07.260 | So yeah, I wish I could talk more, but like I said, I don't have any first-hand experience,

00:27:12.780 | so I'm not going to go on about what I theoretically would do, because that doesn't really help

00:27:18.340 | anybody.

00:27:19.340 | And then the second question, the surprise is, yeah, one is losing money as a source

00:27:27.600 | of motivation.

00:27:30.900 | That wasn't what I expected.

00:27:32.620 | I always thought, wow, just do fun stuff with it.

00:27:39.820 | But as part of that experimentation I told you about earlier, we experimented one year

00:27:43.900 | and we traveled the whole year and we ate out four or five nights a week and we tried

00:27:49.020 | all that stuff and realized it's actually way more fun when it's special and you get

00:27:53.300 | to look forward to it over a few months and you plan for it.

00:27:57.460 | Same with eating out.

00:27:58.460 | It's like, well, if it's a Friday night thing, then you're looking forward to Friday night.

00:28:02.420 | So we've tried a lot of that stuff.

00:28:04.220 | So I guess pre-fi, I would have thought that, oh, if we had extra money, this is going to

00:28:09.260 | be great.

00:28:10.260 | We could go do even more fun stuff.

00:28:12.900 | But through experimentation, I feel like we've got the sweet spot and more is not necessarily

00:28:20.020 | better.

00:28:21.020 | In a lot of cases, it's worse.

00:28:22.500 | So that was a big surprise and that's still something I'm trying to come to grips with.

00:28:27.660 | I haven't even talked to you about this, Glory, but I realized now that my cheapness was the

00:28:36.740 | only thing keeping my eating in check when we're traveling.

00:28:39.760 | So when we go somewhere, sightseeing is just the stuff I do in between eating and drinking

00:28:46.340 | and tasting all the foods and trying all the different stuff.

00:28:51.140 | And on these past trips, ever since we've been able to travel since COVID, I've just

00:28:55.500 | gone crazy.

00:28:56.500 | And I realized that the only thing that was keeping that in check was my frugality and

00:28:59.900 | my cheapness.

00:29:01.100 | And now that that's not there, it's like, well, I'd need some self-control, I guess,

00:29:05.780 | when it comes to food and drinks.

00:29:08.660 | So yeah, it's things like that you don't really think about, but then, yeah, they rear their

00:29:17.100 | head when your situation changes.

00:29:20.140 | So that was a surprise.

00:29:22.660 | I think just the peace of mind has been fantastic.

00:29:27.980 | Like I said, I still feel like a teenager.

00:29:29.900 | So the thought of my car breaking down still gives me some stress and anxiety.

00:29:37.240 | But having enough and then having more than enough has eased that and been like, okay,

00:29:43.220 | we can handle the car breaking or an unexpected repair and things like that, that I think

00:29:49.860 | has really drastically improved my baseline, just at easeness, I guess.

00:29:56.660 | So that's been fantastic.

00:29:58.660 | And then I'm trying to think if there's anything else that's been really, yeah, no, those are

00:30:05.500 | some of the big ones.

00:30:06.500 | If anything comes up when we're talking, I'll be sure to add it.

00:30:10.660 | But yeah, those are the big ones.

00:30:12.580 | And then, yeah, just realizing that all your excuses before, all the blame I was placing

00:30:17.580 | on my job was just totally misplaced and it was all the internal stuff and stuff that

00:30:23.060 | I still had to deal with, yeah, just the self-doubt and the motivation, the procrastination, all

00:30:29.300 | that stuff.

00:30:30.300 | Yeah, it wasn't my job.

00:30:31.380 | So those are the big ones.

00:30:32.860 | Got it.

00:30:33.940 | So thanks for sharing, especially some of these vulnerable topics like what you're opening

00:30:39.980 | up about, a lot of it's personal.

00:30:42.080 | So some of the things, I think it's funny to hear your comments about Ramit for a lot

00:30:46.020 | of folks in the space, there are diehard mustachians, folks who read Mr. Money Mustache and whose

00:30:51.820 | blog changed their lives.

00:30:54.300 | And then Ramit, I would joke to myself, I really value his content as well.

00:30:59.860 | But in my head, I think of him as somewhat of the anti-mustachian.

00:31:04.500 | So I understand that you felt liberated to some extent.

00:31:08.340 | I'd love to hear more about what you've grown to enjoy spending on.

00:31:12.820 | You mentioned food.

00:31:14.100 | And then I'd also love to hear about the evolution of travel.

00:31:17.380 | It sounds like we all want to travel.

00:31:19.860 | It's a very common primary goal, and then some people travel a lot.

00:31:24.540 | So it sounds like your ambition for travel has kind of perhaps changed.

00:31:30.700 | So I'd love to hear more about that.

00:31:32.360 | And then on the topic of travel and living abroad, how has being financially independent,

00:31:40.060 | living abroad, how do you feel that would differ from living in the States?

00:31:43.940 | I think a lot of people in the FI space consider moving abroad, and they try to optimize where

00:31:49.700 | they're going to live, either travel around or settle.

00:31:52.100 | So your thoughts on those.

00:31:53.660 | Yeah, sure.

00:31:54.660 | Yeah, I'll address the anti-mustachian Ramit, which I thought too, and that's why I was

00:32:00.500 | so excited to get him on my show, because I was like, yeah, you are the opposite ends

00:32:05.420 | of the spectrum.

00:32:06.420 | I think they say a lot of the same things in just different ways.

00:32:09.980 | But I think having both in your year is great, and I was lucky to talk to both of them.

00:32:17.700 | And again, I'm going to be going back to Ramit, because I feel like I'm naturally like Mr.

00:32:23.060 | Money Mustache.

00:32:24.740 | That's my natural inclination, I guess.

00:32:27.200 | So having Ramit there, challenging all that stuff that, yeah, me listening to MMM is like

00:32:34.100 | an echo chamber.

00:32:35.100 | So it's like I'm not really getting anything out of that.

00:32:37.300 | But Ramit challenges me, and as far as some of the stuff that has helped me not be so

00:32:44.780 | crazy with the spending, which I believe you asked me, but I'm not sure if you want me

00:32:50.300 | to talk about something else, I believe that was part of the question about Ramit.

00:32:55.780 | It was reframing things.

00:32:57.980 | So one of the things that's helped is like $10 to me is just as valuable as it was when

00:33:05.420 | I was a college student.

00:33:07.820 | It's in my mind, it's the same.

00:33:09.060 | It's like, that's $10.

00:33:10.060 | I'm not going to waste $10, or I'm going to save $10 if I can.

00:33:15.040 | So the trick that I've been doing recently is anytime I'm like freaking out about a expense

00:33:21.420 | that I think I really shouldn't be freaking out about, I calculate what that expense is

00:33:26.860 | like in my college years, because that's where my brain feels like still is with money.

00:33:33.660 | So taking my net worth back in 2000, and dividing it by my net worth now, and then timesing

00:33:42.920 | it by the expense that I'm worried about, and then it'll be like, oh, that's a nickel.

00:33:48.420 | You're actually stressing out about a nickel in college times.

00:33:53.580 | So that's been helpful.

00:33:58.060 | And then forcing myself to spend what the portfolio should allow me to spend has been

00:34:04.140 | really nice, because it's made me a lot more generous, which is something I've always wanted

00:34:09.860 | to be.

00:34:10.860 | But I always was, like I said before, I'm always like, oh, every penny I need to squeeze

00:34:14.380 | it tight in case anything happens.

00:34:17.460 | Whereas now this year, it's like going out to dinner with my family.

00:34:20.420 | It's like, hurry up and try to pay before anybody else even has a chance, and same with

00:34:24.580 | drinks with friends and things like that.

00:34:26.140 | So that's been really nice, because it's like, well, I've got to spend it this year.

00:34:29.580 | I'm forcing myself to spend that much, and there's no way I'm going to do that naturally,

00:34:34.140 | because like I said, I feel like we've dialed in our spending quite well.

00:34:37.960 | So anything more is just going to be maybe not as useful or not bring as much happiness.

00:34:47.660 | So then, yeah, doing those things day to day has been really nice, just because before

00:34:51.820 | I would have maybe stressed about that.

00:34:53.140 | You got to dinner with friends, and somebody orders the fancy cocktail, and you're drinking

00:34:56.620 | water.

00:34:57.620 | And then you're like, oh, and that's the mindset I was in when I was a student.

00:35:01.540 | I want to get out of that, and now the times have changed.

00:35:05.420 | Forcing myself to spend that this year.

00:35:07.380 | And again, I'm not wasting any money, because like I said, I don't want to waste money.

00:35:10.500 | I want to protect it in case one day I definitely will be giving it away.

00:35:17.620 | And the third thing that's helped with that is also allowing myself to enjoy investment.

00:35:26.180 | So rather than just dump all my money into Vanguard index funds, which is what I've done

00:35:32.340 | for the last 20 years, instead, I'm thinking about buying a house, for example.

00:35:41.700 | So to me, that's an ultimate luxury.

00:35:43.400 | It's not really a great investment, but I think it's a luxury that I'm really looking

00:35:49.220 | forward to right now, and my wife is as well.

00:35:51.860 | So in my mind, as I think about it as an investment, rather than me spending on myself, which that

00:35:58.520 | makes it a lot easier to accept.

00:36:02.480 | So I think that's something we're going to do over the next few months, is buy a house

00:36:05.280 | in Scotland, and hopefully make it really comfortable and nice and all of that.

00:36:10.760 | And then for the music stuff, it's like, instead of buying the cheapest synthesizer

00:36:15.980 | that'll let me make the sounds, I buy the one that's going to hold its value the best,

00:36:22.520 | and it's going to maybe be a future classic that is going to maybe even go up in value.

00:36:27.920 | So that's helping me spend a bit more in the near term, but then hopefully getting a lot

00:36:33.160 | of enjoyment out of it, and then maybe even making it an investment where I'm, if not

00:36:41.060 | making money, at least not losing money.

00:36:43.080 | And that's been helpful in mentally being able to spend on myself a little bit more.

00:36:52.360 | And I'm sorry, but I forgot the second question.

00:36:56.320 | Living abroad versus being FI in the States.

00:36:59.400 | Sure.

00:37:00.400 | Yeah.

00:37:01.400 | So luckily, so that was one thing I never skimped on when we were in our 20s, and I'm

00:37:05.800 | thankful for that.

00:37:06.800 | We did travel.

00:37:07.800 | I was really good at travel hacking.

00:37:09.640 | That's like, I love doing stuff like that.

00:37:12.240 | That's like having spreadsheets and plans, and that's like how my brain loves to be all

00:37:16.680 | the time.

00:37:17.680 | So travel hacking was just right in my wheelhouse.

00:37:20.200 | So we visited, I think, 50 countries over our lifetime so far, and we had great, great

00:37:29.160 | trips, and it didn't break the bank.

00:37:31.480 | But obviously, yeah, especially since now that COVID has sort of made travel a bit less

00:37:36.720 | fun where I'm so glad I didn't skimp on that when we were younger.

00:37:41.320 | But now, I don't know if it's because I'm older, I'm turning 40 this year.

00:37:47.600 | I don't know.

00:37:48.600 | I feel like I've got that out of my system.

00:37:53.160 | I feel like it's out of my system.

00:37:54.800 | And now, we just flip-flop back between Scotland and America because my wife's family is in

00:37:59.760 | Scotland and my family is in America.

00:38:03.040 | And luckily, those are two great, beautiful, rich places that have so much to offer that

00:38:08.640 | you can continue to explore for a lifetime and not get bored with them.

00:38:14.340 | So we're always so excited to do that.

00:38:16.160 | But now, I think our travel is more based around people.

00:38:19.520 | So it's not, "All right, which country could we go to to see these things or eat these

00:38:24.340 | foods or whatever?"

00:38:25.400 | It's now like, "All right, where could we go to see these people and have fun with them?"

00:38:30.320 | So that's been a huge shift.

00:38:32.560 | So I think travel is going to decrease for us in the future as well.

00:38:37.280 | It's just going to be mainly just bouncing between those two places.

00:38:41.440 | As far as how that impacts Fi, I know travel in my 20s was very impactful in showing me

00:38:49.600 | that what I thought was normal in America was actually extremely extravagant.

00:38:54.600 | And there's a lot of really unfortunate situations out there where people are really struggling

00:39:00.160 | to get by.

00:39:01.420 | And that allowed me to keep my spending in check, I think, and never feel like I deserved

00:39:06.760 | nicer things or anything like that.

00:39:09.080 | So that was huge.

00:39:10.080 | Just having given me the mindset to save so much money over those years.

00:39:15.140 | But as far as now, I just became a British citizen on July 1st, which was really exciting

00:39:22.060 | after so long and so many applications trying to get it.

00:39:26.360 | So now we don't have to worry about visas and stuff.

00:39:28.560 | But obviously, the healthcare thing, that's a huge weight off my chest now.

00:39:32.040 | I guess it's like the national healthcare, National Health Service is fantastic in Scotland.

00:39:38.640 | So there are benefits in places.

00:39:43.920 | It's probably more difficult to pursue Fi there, just because of the higher taxes and

00:39:48.000 | things like that.

00:39:49.000 | And there's less loopholes, which is what my whole site was built on back in the earlier

00:39:54.480 | days was just finding interesting loopholes for early retirees or future early retirees.

00:39:59.600 | So there's a lot less of that.

00:40:02.320 | But then there's a bigger social safety net.

00:40:04.920 | So you have a lot more stuff covered as well.

00:40:07.520 | So yeah, I don't know if that exactly answers your question, but hopefully it's helpful.

00:40:11.800 | Yeah, that was very helpful.

00:40:13.200 | Thanks.

00:40:14.200 | So a few things.

00:40:15.200 | In what you said, one is that you're considering buying a house, I'm certain that the Boglehead

00:40:19.880 | audience would like to hear more about, especially given how analytical you are, and how, you

00:40:25.000 | know, you commented, it's not necessarily a good investment, or it's often not a good

00:40:28.880 | investment.

00:40:29.880 | But also, if you could talk about on top of that, share your thoughts.

00:40:35.080 | So you mentioned you were considering buying real estate as a part time investment.

00:40:40.080 | So you mentioned, you know, like a unit near a ski resort that you could you could use

00:40:46.680 | personally when you in ski season, and then you could rent it out when you're not using

00:40:50.840 | it.

00:40:51.840 | And then COVID happened.

00:40:52.840 | So obviously, that changed.

00:40:53.840 | But how are your your thoughts going forward on that?

00:40:57.520 | Does it still interest you?

00:40:58.760 | And then can you elaborate on your purchase analysis and how you decided where you're

00:41:04.600 | currently leaning?

00:41:05.600 | Sure.

00:41:06.600 | Yeah, no.

00:41:07.600 | So that that plan is pretty much out the window.

00:41:10.040 | And again, that's always me coming back to my default, which is like, how could I optimize

00:41:15.040 | this for the numbers as perfectly as possible?

00:41:18.040 | And that that whole plan of having two places, one in Scotland, one in America.

00:41:23.640 | And the thought was that we would buy in places that the peak tourist season was pretty much

00:41:29.080 | opposite.

00:41:30.080 | So we could live in the non high peak tourist place while we rent out the peak tourist place,

00:41:35.960 | and then use that money to pay for the other one and then vice versa.

00:41:38.880 | And it was all a numbers thing in it.

00:41:40.920 | And that's again, it's just old habits die hard, I'm trying to get out of making numbers

00:41:45.320 | only decisions, which is where Ramit comes in, where he's like, there's more than a spreadsheet

00:41:50.080 | and you have to live outside the spreadsheet.

00:41:52.240 | And, you know, sometimes decisions should be more than just like optimizing numbers.

00:41:58.280 | So I realized like, all the stress that could come from renting things out, and, and, and

00:42:07.440 | at least I know myself well enough to know that that would just cause a huge amount of

00:42:10.600 | stress because yeah, I'm an introverted guy, and I do enjoy interacting with people.

00:42:15.960 | But yeah, conflict with people that I just know that if I'm a landlord, I'm not going

00:42:21.400 | to be too happy, and I'll probably be a lot more stressed.

00:42:25.540 | So it would just add a lot of negative things.

00:42:27.280 | And yeah, the numbers may be great.

00:42:28.760 | But yeah, I don't think would actually benefit.

00:42:32.520 | So so now the idea is to just buy a base in Scotland, you know, finally get to enjoy some

00:42:39.800 | of our stuff that has been we just literally today, Jill and I were in that closet, I'm

00:42:44.520 | at my dad's house, going through that closet, because there's boxes in there that we haven't

00:42:50.000 | seen since we moved out of Vermont, like six years ago or something.

00:42:53.960 | So yeah, being reunited with all that stuff is going to be nice.

00:42:57.340 | And then we can just store it all in Scotland.

00:42:59.620 | And then when we come to the states, and yeah, if we want to go skiing, we can just rent

00:43:02.580 | an Airbnb or if we want to, you know, come to Pittsburgh and see all of my family here,

00:43:07.140 | we can just rent an apartment in the city or I think it'll allow us to be a lot more

00:43:11.100 | flexible in the states.

00:43:13.700 | And then in Scotland, we'll have a home base to go back to.

00:43:16.460 | And that's when I can, you know, the idea is to like, yeah, Scotland will be the place

00:43:20.820 | where we can get stuff done and see Jill's family and just really spend time with them.

00:43:26.540 | And Jill can work if she wants to pick up some shifts and things like that.

00:43:30.300 | And in the states, we can just use that time to see people here and have fun and do things

00:43:35.140 | like skiing and visiting friends.

00:43:36.900 | So so yeah, it's changed quite a lot.

00:43:38.780 | And then as far as the end of the analysis for buying a place in Scotland, not really

00:43:45.500 | not really looking at it numbers based trying not to at least we know where we want to be,

00:43:50.600 | we know the type of property we want.

00:43:52.740 | Thankfully, it hasn't popped up yet, because we're in the states for we're not going to

00:43:57.660 | be back in Scotland till mid October.

00:44:00.880 | So hopefully, we can deal with that when we get back.

00:44:03.220 | But yeah, I think it's hopefully, hopefully just going to be the property that decides

00:44:07.420 | it and not any crazy number analysis for me and I can just, I have some money set aside.

00:44:13.740 | It's like for that.

00:44:16.100 | And yeah, hopefully, we just find a property that that works and then try to be homeowners

00:44:20.880 | again after renting for so long now.

00:44:24.520 | That sounds fantastic.

00:44:25.520 | It's a another example of optimizing for happiness.

00:44:29.800 | So I'm sensitive of the group's time, I think we have about four or five minutes before

00:44:34.500 | we go to the group's questions.

00:44:36.660 | So as you and I wrap up, even though clearly, we could, you know, keep talking about so

00:44:40.600 | many different things.

00:44:42.720 | And I think folks, you know, find a lot of this practical and insightful.

00:44:48.000 | On that note, you've commented that you're, you're not in this five space to be evangelical,

00:44:54.960 | you started the blog to kind of keep yourself accountable, right with an external motivator.

00:45:00.760 | And it helps people who are already interested in the journey.

00:45:04.620 | So this question is really like for a lot of bogal heads, they're the beacon in their

00:45:08.480 | community, whether it's a social circle or family, people come to them for guidance and

00:45:12.520 | advice.

00:45:13.520 | What have you seen in the space, because there's so much advice out there, right?

00:45:16.900 | And certain things resonate with some people more than others, obviously, what have you

00:45:21.400 | seen be most effective for the folks that want to improve, they want to save better,

00:45:27.240 | they want to invest better, but they find it so incredibly challenging?

00:45:31.560 | Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's tough.

00:45:35.740 | It's a tough one for me, just because it has come so naturally, like I said before, it's

00:45:39.600 | just been such a focus in my life for some reason, for so long.

00:45:44.880 | I guess it would have to just go back to tracking and really, like, so this is probably a good

00:45:52.920 | actual example.

00:45:53.920 | So I have another personal spreadsheet, where I just in a cell, just one column will have

00:46:02.880 | like all the thing, all the big purchases I made that year.

00:46:06.060 | And then another column will have, and it doesn't like all the spreadsheet purists are

00:46:11.160 | gonna be like, you don't need a spreadsheet for that.

00:46:12.660 | But I just love working with cells.

00:46:14.860 | So then I'll have another column, that's the highlights of the year.

00:46:18.860 | And I think, like, obviously, if I was struggling with that, I think that would be really beneficial

00:46:25.100 | to keep those lists, you know, your big purchases, and then your highlights, and then revisit

00:46:31.660 | it in future years.

00:46:32.900 | And, you know, tracking your spending is obviously huge.

00:46:36.780 | And I think like, yeah, tracking your spending, and then tracking these big purchases, I think

00:46:40.820 | would be the first step because I feel like a lot of people maybe are just, you know,

00:46:46.740 | buying what other people think, or they see other people doing that, and they're buying

00:46:50.060 | and it's really not adding to their happiness in any way.

00:46:53.720 | So I think writing those things down, and then looking back on it, be like, Oh, actually,

00:46:57.620 | those things weren't really that important, or that trip wasn't that great.

00:47:02.020 | Or eating out wasn't that great.

00:47:03.300 | So yeah, but again, though, I'm like I said, I'm, I'm so naturally focused on this stuff

00:47:09.660 | that it's a bit harder for me to think about what would be really beneficial.

00:47:14.800 | But I think, even now, as I'm trying to come to grips with my new spending patterns, it's

00:47:21.100 | been helpful for me.

00:47:22.420 | And it's something Yeah, that I still do.

00:47:24.300 | So it's just recording all the all the big purchases, all the highlights, and then trying

00:47:29.420 | to figure out, what does that mean for what I actually enjoy or get value out of?

00:47:35.100 | Great.

00:47:36.100 | Yeah, that's, it's definitely helpful to hear.

00:47:38.260 | And for folks who who don't know, mad scientist compiled a PDF of the one piece of advice

00:47:47.260 | answers that he got from his podcast guests.

00:47:49.980 | So that's available at mad scientist slash advice, I believe you go to that, enter your

00:47:54.780 | email, you'll get that PDF, basically instantly.

00:47:58.100 | So in closing, before we turn it over to audience questions, you mentioned James clear as atomic

00:48:02.820 | habits.

00:48:03.820 | I think that's a universal favorite.

00:48:06.840 | Everyone I know that's read it just kind of swears by it on top of the other habit books

00:48:11.220 | out there that preceded it.

00:48:14.060 | Very practical.

00:48:15.060 | And you mentioned ultra learning any other books you recommend or documentaries, especially

00:48:20.740 | for the bogal head crowd doesn't need to be finance related could be, you know, spanning

00:48:24.700 | life.

00:48:25.700 | Yeah.

00:48:26.700 | Um, so JL Collins, the author of The Simple Path to Wealth, he was my second podcast guest

00:48:32.540 | way back in 2012, way before The Simple Path to Wealth.

00:48:37.140 | And he had recommended how to obtain freedom in an unfree world, Harry Brown.

00:48:44.500 | And there's a lot in that book that are, you know, like, I definitely don't agree with

00:48:47.780 | it all.

00:48:49.780 | My wife particularly had big issues with some of it.

00:48:53.460 | But it did make you think a little bit differently about the boxes you put yourself in and the

00:49:00.860 | constraints that are all self imposed, pretty much, I would say in a lot of cases.

00:49:07.580 | And you know, back then 2012, you know, fire wasn't as big of a thing and definitely wasn't

00:49:13.780 | anywhere near mainstream, like it got to be in 2018, or things like that.

00:49:18.540 | So that helped just, yeah, with my mindset at like, oh, actually, society doesn't know

00:49:26.100 | best and these other people don't know best and the things that I think I'm restricted

00:49:32.120 | by aren't actually restrictions, they're just my own mental restrictions.

00:49:36.980 | And I can actually do anything that I really want.

00:49:41.340 | So that was I would say that was a pretty impactful non financial book.

00:49:46.740 | Early Retirement Extreme, that was what got me into this in the first place I saw in 2011.

00:49:51.300 | I think it was that J.D. Roth on Get Rich Slowly had interviewed or had written a book

00:49:59.820 | review of Early Retirement Extreme.

00:50:02.140 | And that that reads like a academic book.

00:50:06.020 | But there's a lot of a lot of great stuff in there that, you know, I've read it at least

00:50:10.460 | three times, and finally got to speak to Jacob just last year, which was a which was a big

00:50:16.020 | thrill for me, because he was the thing that he was the guy that made the light bulb go

00:50:19.860 | off in my head.

00:50:22.220 | So yeah, Early Retirement Extreme is still still one of my favorites.

00:50:25.340 | So those two, I would, I would give as something to check out with an open mind.

00:50:31.100 | And yeah, it's not they're not Bibles.

00:50:33.180 | But yeah, they'll hopefully get you thinking.

00:50:35.620 | Fantastic.

00:50:36.620 | Well, thanks again.

00:50:37.620 | I meant to mention earlier, when we're talking about relationships that your wife, Jill has

00:50:43.620 | a guest post on your blog, and also a podcast conversation that if folks haven't listened

00:50:50.500 | to, I highly recommend those very engaging, very just warm and enjoyable.

00:50:56.660 | So with that, Brandon, thanks again, you're, you know, we're still continuing, but I want

00:51:02.600 | to turn it over to Miriam, Carol, and Manny, and the folks who are running the questions

00:51:09.040 | on the chat.

00:51:10.260 | And those folks will be asking the questions from the audience.

00:51:12.980 | Oh, yeah.

00:51:13.980 | Before you move over.

00:51:14.980 | Thanks a lot, Gorrie.

00:51:15.980 | It's always a pleasure to chat with you.

00:51:16.980 | And yeah, we'll see you back in Edinburgh soon.

00:51:19.020 | Love that.

00:51:20.020 | And likewise.

00:51:21.020 | Thank you, Gorrie.

00:51:22.020 | Thank you, Mad Scientist.

00:51:24.780 | That was a wonderful, wonderful discussion.

00:51:27.300 | I enjoyed it very much.

00:51:29.340 | I'm going to remove you from spotlight.

00:51:32.180 | So hold on here while I do that.

00:51:38.580 | Thank you.

00:51:43.220 | Thank you.

00:51:47.780 | Thank you.

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