Welcome to the Bogleheads Chapter Series. This episode was hosted by the Bogleheads Starting Out Life Stage Chapter and recorded August 30th, 2021. It features the blogger Matt Fientist discussing achieving the dream of financial independence. Bogleheads are investors who follow John Bogle's philosophy for attaining financial independence. This recording is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice.

Brandon, great to see you. Thanks a lot for having me. Thanks for being here. We are so grateful that you're taking the time. A lot of folks know that you were a software developer, you retired at 34, having reached financial independence. So we're going to talk about the highs and lows of financial independence, but also get to know you as a person, talk about some of your influences, how you've evolved during early retirement, and wherever the conversation takes us.

So I want to be sensitive to some of the audience knowing your material really well, both written and podcast, and some of the audience being less familiar. So we'll navigate that balance so as to not be too redundant, as well as to not address what you're known for and specialized about.

So again, as Miriam mentioned, we have a national audience here from coast to coast. And for the audience, you and I will chat for about an hour. And then during the chat, we're collecting, the team is collecting questions via the chat function. And we'll address those after your and my conversation concludes.

So with that, I also want to encourage folks who aren't yet familiar with Brandon's website to read the blogs, listen to the podcast, there's so much there. A lot of it might sound familiar, covered in the space, but a lot of it is uniquely Brandon or med-scientist related, a lot of tax efficiency stuff.

And Brandon has also been a guest on other podcasts like Choose FI and Afford Anything so you can find additional insights from Brandon as a guest, not just on his podcast. With that, let's dive in. Anything you want to say before we get started, Brandon? No, no. Looking forward to it.

Excellent. So we'll begin with something that you often end with on your podcast, which is you ask your guests who are leaders in the FI space or often the self-improvement space, you ask them what's one piece of financial advice you would give towards financial independence. So I ask you that question.

Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a question I love to ask because there's so many different answers I've gotten over the years. But for me, I would say experiment, which being the med-scientist, I probably wouldn't have said that when I started the med-scientist. So it's not me just saying that because it fits with my science theme or anything, but it's really the truth.

Because if I've learned anything over the past 10 years of doing this and really thinking about it hard, it's that we're really bad at knowing what we really, really want. And the only way to find out is to try things, hopefully try them at a low cost, low commitment sort of situation so that you don't get yourself into a situation where you can't reverse that choice.

But it's really about experimenting because especially for me, I'm a naturally frugal guy and spending has been a big focus of mine recently and after post-fi to figure out what is the best use of money. And now that it's not as tight anymore, what's actually going to make me happier and what's not really going to move the needle and things like that.

So yeah, experimenting and just realizing that you don't have to be right right away because you are probably pretty bad at actually figuring out what you really want to do or what you want to be or what you want to spend your money on. Excellent. Yeah, it's so great to hear.

And there's so much there that I'd like for us to follow up on. One is when you say experiment, try it out. There are tons of people that we hear about who, whether they're planning for financial independence, early retirement, or just retirement in general, they dream about this next phase of life, they plan the savings part of it, but then when they get there, they're kind of absent the social structure or interaction or meaning.

How do you suggest people, building on what you said about experimenting, how do you suggest people fill that void in advance? Sure. Yeah. No. So I'm sure a lot of people out there are probably similar to what I was, where I blamed my job for the reason I wasn't living the life that I thought would make me happiest and wasn't doing the things that I thought I really wanted to do with my life.

Like it was such an easy scapegoat. And only after leaving the job and then trying to do all those things that I thought I wanted to do, I realized it wasn't my job holding me back. I was very lucky. I was a software developer and the technologies I used allowed me to be very productive very quickly.

So I could get my work done. And a quarter of the time that some other teams that I worked amongst were able to do it. But the timescales were never tight and I had plenty of free time. So it was only once that I removed that easy scapegoat, did I realize that actually I could have been doing all of these things with a job and I would have then not had to also try to figure out all these crazy post-fi things that come up that you never even expect because I would have still been working.

So yeah, I would say one, yeah, just try to remove the easy scapegoats of your job and start trying to do these things that you really think you're going to do post-fi because one, some things aren't big enough to really get you out of the bed in the morning.

Like I remember I thought like, oh, I'll learn a new language and then that way when we travel to wherever in the world, I'll be able to, you know, know this new language is going to be amazing. You know, like when you don't have anyone forcing you to get out of bed in the morning to conjugate verbs, it's harder to force yourself to do that and you're not exactly leaping out of bed to do that either.

So the more you can like get started on these things while you're still in the grind, the daily grind, I think the way better off you're going to be because one, you're going to have momentum, you're going to sort of like come across these challenges that have nothing to do with your job earlier and start to work through them and realize, hey, actually it's not my job that's holding me back.

It's for me, like personally, it was my self-doubt and some of the artistic things I wanted to do. And yeah, if you, if you just start early and don't think like, I think the other problem is like, it's like for me back then it was a finish line. Everything was going to be great after that finish line and everything wasn't working prior to that finish line.

And I think that was the definitely wrong way to do it. I think the more you can view it as just a spectrum where every dollar you're saving is adding to that power that you have to, you know, take more time off or follow that passion projects to another level and things like that.

I think the better off you'll be and then the less crazy FI or post-FI life would be after because it's not going to be just like flipping a switch. It's going to be this gradual progression into, oh, actually now I have the power to have unlimited free time and now I know how to deal with that and use it properly because I've practiced along the way as I've incrementally got more free time.

So that's, that's how I would view it just as a spectrum, not as a goal line. Excellent. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of someone interviewed Michael Phelps and in, I think one of the Olympic runs his goggles failed and water got in his eyes and he had to do the whole thing closed with eyes closed and they interviewed him after and said, how was he able to perform at such a high level?

And he said, he did that in his head over and over again. So it reminds me of how you're saying prepare. So following up on a few of the things you mentioned, so you mentioned passion project. I think your followers will know that you pursued FI to record and release your own music and you were able to do that.

So huge congrats again there. And you know, I know you're, you're modest. So I'll let folks know that the release went really well and had success on the charts. Why don't you tell us a bit more about that? How it was to pursue this lifelong goal and you know, how's it been since?

Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned the charts and like, I'd love to, I'd love that to be because the music was so amazing and it just got played on radio everywhere. Actually it was just the mad scientist audience had grown so big over 10 years and I'd never asked them to do anything.

And I asked them to buy the album and they, and thousands of them did. And yeah, it was a ridiculous, a ridiculous one week on the charts. And then it was, yeah, that was, that was done. But yeah, that was, yeah, that was the main goal. That was again, like I've, I've mentioned a bit earlier that I blamed my job for holding me back on that for so long.

But it was only once I quit my job and had all the time in the world to pursue it that I realized it was way more than that. It was, it was really just a ton of self doubt. I never thought I could actually do it. So I was not even trying to do it because I thought if I tried and then failed, I'd lose the dream forever.

But and I never wanted to do that because I was like, I really need to write and release an album one day. So I didn't want to lose the dream. But trying every time I tried, just made it so much more evident that I would never actually be able to do it.

So that's why I just put off doing it. So I never made progress. And it took me till three and a half years after I left my job, before, you know, I finally got fed up. And I was like, look, this is the whole reason I was wanting to have all this free time.

And in the first years after leaving my job, I filled it with, you know, Mad Fientist stuff, I filled it with fun stuff, I was saying yes to everything, because I couldn't have all this time. And I was like, I need to just really get serious about this. And it was brutal.

But I, it was actually Atomic Habits by James Clear. I read his book, got to speak to him on my podcast, which was amazing. And it was that coupled with another book called Ultra Learning. And then there was a music specific one that I, it was just an ebook, but it was actually phenomenal.

So if any musicians out there care, I'll send you a link to that, because it's not a very big book. But it was very instrumental in me actually making progress. And all of that at the end of the day, just boiled down to like putting in the time. So sitting in the chair and being uncomfortable and just forcing yourself to do that.

And trying to not focus on what you produce by the end of that day. Just focusing on okay, I put five hours into the chair, and it was all mostly productive, you know, like, I would lose confidence, I would lose willpower. And by the end of the day, I was like watching YouTube tutorials, which, you know, was not really productive, but I could sort of make it seem productive for my five hours, at least.

So anyway, it took all of that. And then the pandemic hit. And then I just locked myself inside for 15 months, because Scotland was very locked down. My wife's Scottish, and we live in Edinburgh, or we did at that time. And just locked myself inside, and never truly believed that I would do it.

And until it came out, and still don't really believe it. But I listened to it. And I'm like, I'm really proud of it. It was definitely the most challenging thing I've ever tried to do. And it meant so much to me. So yeah, you'll listen to it. It's not like Grammy Award winning stuff.

It's like my weird, like synthesizer, like experimental synth pop stuff that I loved growing up. So it's a really weird genre of music. But it's, yeah, my only goal line was that I was comfortable enough with it to release it. And I did. So that it's, that was the highlight, and was the whole reason I wanted to pursue Phi in the first place.

And like I said before, I didn't actually need to be Phi to do it. But I sort of did as well, because that took away all my excuses. Yeah. Well, congrats again on achieving that. It's tremendous. And I'm not typically a synth pop listener, but absolutely enjoyed your music.

So thanks again for getting it out there. So a few things. One is a lot of folks in the Fi space, you know, we'll talk about, of course, saving and investing and reducing your living expenses and increasing your savings rate. And I think folks, you know, interested in pursuing it have a lot of access to that information.

A more common underlying message that surfaces is a lot of this is about happiness, right? So can you elaborate on what happiness is, you know, like for you, or what success means to you? And for this audience, the Bogleheads famously are not defined by fancy house or fancy car, even though many of them could easily afford that, sometimes many times over.

So yeah, what does success mean to you and how has it been in early retirement? Yeah. Well, success is to me, those personal wins, like I can think back over the last 10 years and the things I'm most proud of are things that, you know, I haven't shouted about or told, you know, anybody about really, and it's just those, like knowing how hard I worked on that album and all of the hurdles that I had to overcome that, like, that's what I'm super proud of.

And getting on the Billboard charts for a week is funny and just adds to the ridiculousness of my life in a great way. Like it's so funny to think about every time I think about it, but that's nothing. It's thinking back at all those things that I had to overcome and yeah, happiness is a tricky one because I had a great comment on my last post and it was, I was sort of talking about happiness and like finding new sources of motivation after five, because people like me who think about money since I was a, you know, a kid, I was there, my parents were throwing quarters in the deep end of the pool and I would spend all day like finding money and I just loved it.

So for somebody who's where money has been so important for so long, for now that to not matter anymore because I don't want the fancy house or the fancy cars or I don't want to waste money in any way and things like that. So that's been really interesting to try to come to grips with that and find new sources of motivation because now I don't have to do anything.

And as I said in like my most recent post, it's like a lot of the really fun things have a lot of discomfort up front, but now that I don't have money driving me through that initial discomfort, I'm worried that I'm missing out on some like longer term fun in some areas just because, you know, I'm like, well, I don't want to do that.

I don't have to do that because I don't need to earn another dollar or whatever. So yeah, happiness is a tricky one. And in that, so this goes back to the comment I was going to mention. So it was, I thought it was really insightful. The guy had said, I think as humans, we always need something to be uncomfortable with or unhappy about or striving for something better.

And he brought up the fact that like, you know, there's a lot of maybe I'm not too big in the rest of the Phi community anymore just because I've been working on the music stuff. But apparently in the Phi community, there's lots of like divorces happening and things and people reach Phi and then, you know, they need that unhappiness.

So they find it in their partner or things like that. And I can see how that happens because, you know, I could throw everything at my job and be like, that's why my boss is making me mad. My colleagues are making me mad and that's why I'm unhappy. But then when you can control everything and do whatever you want, then you either have to come to accept that, oh, it's just you that's finding those things to be unhappy about or angry about, or you, you know, sometimes sadly maybe put it on the person closest to you or the people around you.

So yeah, so it's still one that I haven't figured out yet and I'm like, that's not to say like I feel so lucky and I'm definitely happier now having been able to pursue all these things that I've always wanted to and, you know, not have the stresses of money or worrying about, you know, the markets are tanking or anything like that.

But yeah, it's not a golden ticket to just happiness and rainbows, which I think early me when I was pursuing it, I put that on FI, I was like, well, yeah, I'll be happy when I'm FI. So I'll just be miserable now and just grind it out. And again, going back to the advice that I was given earlier is like, yeah, don't put off happiness until the finish line either.

Don't put off, you know, pursuing your things that you want to do. Don't put off thinking about what post FI life is going to look like because yeah, when you cross the finish line, it's just at the end of the day, it's just a slightly higher number on the screen and it really maybe is more anticlimactic than you may expect it to be.

Got it. Yeah. Very insightful stuff. So two particular things. So let's say a two part question, one building on your comments. One is this concept of enough, right? You and I know people in the FI space and life in general who had earned a lot, can still earn a lot and really adjusted this mindset to just say, you know, any additional money has very little marginal value.

Why, why am I needing to work or seeking work? But there are also people who either enjoy what they do. Maybe they're entrepreneurs or some people are paid really well, just like the rat race, but enjoy accumulating, enjoy watching their portfolios grow. And you know, within the FI community, there's this one more year syndrome, right?

People don't feel comfortable. Can you elaborate on how you achieve this, I'll call it a Zen like state of you have enough, right? We know someone who, who says any additional money he gets, he gives to charity. And I just feel like that's such an enlightened state, right? Like we're socialized, like apart from societal influence on the importance of money, there's a practical importance.

So that's one. And then the second you spoke about relationships and specifically in the FI community, can you elaborate on yours to the extent you're comfortable, what it's like being, because you mentioned publicly, Jill still works. She loves what she does. You guys converged in this journey and you know, what has that been like to be?

And I'll talk about like gender roles or societal, you know, pressures or influences to be the, the spouse who's not working and to be a guy in, you know, not working in, in our society. Sure. Oh yeah. I really don't feel like I've reached any Zen like state sadly, but I'm more, I'm working towards it.

Again, like I think the big thing for me was never feeling like I needed to impress anyone with money. And I think that just gives you such a huge advantage where like, I would rather people think I was poorer than I am because I just had a, you know, a middle-class upbringing like you know, like times were always tight and I, my identity is so tied to that.

So to then either go into the next societal brackets you know, upper class or something would just be a total identity. I would just, yeah, I don't think my brain could handle it. So I'm always, so I'm lucky in that sense where I've never felt the need to impress people with flashy anything.

I wouldn't say I'm Zen yet because you mentioned charity, like I still can't give money away. I'm not wasting it and that's why I have such a hard trouble spending it because I don't want to waste it. And I know one day I'm going to be at that stage where I can make better use of it.

So in this meantime where I still have this psychological hangup, I, yeah, I just, I'm protecting it so that I don't waste it away and have some sort of lifestyle inflation that causes me to not to be able to give it away. But there's still part of me that I guess just has this scarcity mindset like, oh, like I got to keep it all just in case something really bad happens or, and I don't know where that comes from.

Like I said, maybe it was because times were so tight growing up and I never felt like we were deprived of anything, but you know, there was, you know, every penny was accounted for and I still feel that in that my mindset hasn't caught up with the actual situation yet.

So, so yeah, so a long way to go on the Zen part. To get to the spouse part, yes, my wife was complete opposite end of the spectrum for me. She wasn't, she never spent money to like impress other people. So I don't think it was like that far, but she never, she just didn't care about money.

So if it was in their, her account, she would spend it and if it wasn't, she wouldn't want to think, think too much about it. Whereas I was like, you know, spreadsheets for everything and go into, you know, knowing what I bought at this store versus this store and all that stuff.

So yeah, thankfully we've come together and she's a lot more conscious of spending and money and I'm not as crazy about it, which has worked out great. And as you said, she's, she loves her job. She's an optometrist. She can't think of anything else she'd want to do, but she's also seen the benefits of having savings.

So to go to COVID at the beginning of the pandemic in Scotland, her thing, people weren't taking it as seriously as we felt needed to be, you know, things needed to be taken care of. So she was able to just say, look, I'm not, I'm just not coming in.

And then she, yeah, she was off for the first three or four months of the pandemic because she was worried about giving this to her elderly patients and she didn't think the PPE was all in the right state. And then once that came back, she was able to go back.

And then for the past like six months, we've been traveling to the States since we were finally able to, and we've been able to see friends and family. So she's obviously not worked that time. So she's seen the benefits of that. And obviously I've seen the benefits of not being so crazy with money.

So thankfully we have met in the middle and I think we've both made each other better with our relationships with money. But as far as her working and me not, one, like this is going to sound crazy cause I'm, you know, I've been writing about financial independence on the internet since 2012, but I really don't like talking about it to people I know in real life.

So I still just say I'm a software developer that works from home, which is technically true because I write software for the Mad Scientist website. But yeah, I feel really weird talking about that in person. So yeah, I'm at home, but I was at home before we, before I even hit FI and again, I don't think it bothers me that, even if that wasn't the case and I was, if all of our friends thought I was just unemployed and she was working, yeah, I don't know how I would feel about that.

I don't think, I would hope I wouldn't care that much because again, like the things that drive me or the personal things that I accomplish that, you know, I still don't, I don't tell anybody, anybody about anyway. So I think I'd, I'd hope that I would be okay with that.

But you know, like I said, it's harder to, reality is often way different than you imagine it would be. So yeah, but so far I haven't had any issue. Cause again, I just mostly tell people I'm a, I work from home for myself as a software developer. Excellent. Great to hear.

So that spawns another two part question. One is COVID and I know historically you said you saved enough, but your, you know, passive income stream was sufficient that you didn't need to withdraw from your portfolio. And I know that this audience would be very curious about your withdrawal strategy.

So maybe if you can elaborate, maybe during COVID you needed to test it or how you envision it if you haven't needed to test it. And then within the, you know, the actual FI experience, if you could talk more about the highs and lows of it. So what surprised you?

Were you blindsided by anything? Were there some disappointing surprises and then some like phenomenal surprises you didn't even consider? Sure. So the first thing I haven't had to withdraw with Joe working and with the side income that has grown probably over the last three or four years, I guess when, whenever FI really took off, I guess that was maybe 2018 when it seemed to be in mainstream media and stuff.

So then the MADFINES has started earning more income than we spend. So I can't speak to that. My plan was always to, you know, do the safe withdrawal rates, just I'd never imagined I would increase it with inflation as allowed for. I felt that I would be very flexible in my withdrawals.

Since we don't have a lot of fixed costs, a lot of our spending is just discretionary. So the plan was to just tighten up and down years and then go back to three and a half percent was my floor withdrawal rates, but then 4% plus and better years potentially.

So yeah, 3.5% was my target and that's still what I base all of our spending on now. I'm actually, like I said, I'm trying to loosen up with spending because I'm still the frugal college student I was 20 years ago and I'm trying to break out of that. I spoke to Ramit Sethi about that on my podcast and I'm hopefully going to get him back because I feel like I've made some strides in that slightly, but now I'm trying to force myself to spend that 3.5% withdrawal, which we've been shy of ever since we hit five.

So yeah, I wish I could talk more, but like I said, I don't have any first-hand experience, so I'm not going to go on about what I theoretically would do, because that doesn't really help anybody. And then the second question, the surprise is, yeah, one is losing money as a source of motivation.

That wasn't what I expected. I always thought, wow, just do fun stuff with it. But as part of that experimentation I told you about earlier, we experimented one year and we traveled the whole year and we ate out four or five nights a week and we tried all that stuff and realized it's actually way more fun when it's special and you get to look forward to it over a few months and you plan for it.

Same with eating out. It's like, well, if it's a Friday night thing, then you're looking forward to Friday night. So we've tried a lot of that stuff. So I guess pre-fi, I would have thought that, oh, if we had extra money, this is going to be great. We could go do even more fun stuff.

But through experimentation, I feel like we've got the sweet spot and more is not necessarily better. In a lot of cases, it's worse. So that was a big surprise and that's still something I'm trying to come to grips with. I haven't even talked to you about this, Glory, but I realized now that my cheapness was the only thing keeping my eating in check when we're traveling.

So when we go somewhere, sightseeing is just the stuff I do in between eating and drinking and tasting all the foods and trying all the different stuff. And on these past trips, ever since we've been able to travel since COVID, I've just gone crazy. And I realized that the only thing that was keeping that in check was my frugality and my cheapness.

And now that that's not there, it's like, well, I'd need some self-control, I guess, when it comes to food and drinks. So yeah, it's things like that you don't really think about, but then, yeah, they rear their head when your situation changes. So that was a surprise. I think just the peace of mind has been fantastic.

Like I said, I still feel like a teenager. So the thought of my car breaking down still gives me some stress and anxiety. But having enough and then having more than enough has eased that and been like, okay, we can handle the car breaking or an unexpected repair and things like that, that I think has really drastically improved my baseline, just at easeness, I guess.

So that's been fantastic. And then I'm trying to think if there's anything else that's been really, yeah, no, those are some of the big ones. If anything comes up when we're talking, I'll be sure to add it. But yeah, those are the big ones. And then, yeah, just realizing that all your excuses before, all the blame I was placing on my job was just totally misplaced and it was all the internal stuff and stuff that I still had to deal with, yeah, just the self-doubt and the motivation, the procrastination, all that stuff.

Yeah, it wasn't my job. So those are the big ones. Got it. So thanks for sharing, especially some of these vulnerable topics like what you're opening up about, a lot of it's personal. So some of the things, I think it's funny to hear your comments about Ramit for a lot of folks in the space, there are diehard mustachians, folks who read Mr.

Money Mustache and whose blog changed their lives. And then Ramit, I would joke to myself, I really value his content as well. But in my head, I think of him as somewhat of the anti-mustachian. So I understand that you felt liberated to some extent. I'd love to hear more about what you've grown to enjoy spending on.

You mentioned food. And then I'd also love to hear about the evolution of travel. It sounds like we all want to travel. It's a very common primary goal, and then some people travel a lot. So it sounds like your ambition for travel has kind of perhaps changed. So I'd love to hear more about that.

And then on the topic of travel and living abroad, how has being financially independent, living abroad, how do you feel that would differ from living in the States? I think a lot of people in the FI space consider moving abroad, and they try to optimize where they're going to live, either travel around or settle.

So your thoughts on those. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'll address the anti-mustachian Ramit, which I thought too, and that's why I was so excited to get him on my show, because I was like, yeah, you are the opposite ends of the spectrum. I think they say a lot of the same things in just different ways.

But I think having both in your year is great, and I was lucky to talk to both of them. And again, I'm going to be going back to Ramit, because I feel like I'm naturally like Mr. Money Mustache. That's my natural inclination, I guess. So having Ramit there, challenging all that stuff that, yeah, me listening to MMM is like an echo chamber.

So it's like I'm not really getting anything out of that. But Ramit challenges me, and as far as some of the stuff that has helped me not be so crazy with the spending, which I believe you asked me, but I'm not sure if you want me to talk about something else, I believe that was part of the question about Ramit.

It was reframing things. So one of the things that's helped is like $10 to me is just as valuable as it was when I was a college student. It's in my mind, it's the same. It's like, that's $10. I'm not going to waste $10, or I'm going to save $10 if I can.

So the trick that I've been doing recently is anytime I'm like freaking out about a expense that I think I really shouldn't be freaking out about, I calculate what that expense is like in my college years, because that's where my brain feels like still is with money. So taking my net worth back in 2000, and dividing it by my net worth now, and then timesing it by the expense that I'm worried about, and then it'll be like, oh, that's a nickel.

You're actually stressing out about a nickel in college times. So that's been helpful. And then forcing myself to spend what the portfolio should allow me to spend has been really nice, because it's made me a lot more generous, which is something I've always wanted to be. But I always was, like I said before, I'm always like, oh, every penny I need to squeeze it tight in case anything happens.

Whereas now this year, it's like going out to dinner with my family. It's like, hurry up and try to pay before anybody else even has a chance, and same with drinks with friends and things like that. So that's been really nice, because it's like, well, I've got to spend it this year.

I'm forcing myself to spend that much, and there's no way I'm going to do that naturally, because like I said, I feel like we've dialed in our spending quite well. So anything more is just going to be maybe not as useful or not bring as much happiness. So then, yeah, doing those things day to day has been really nice, just because before I would have maybe stressed about that.

You got to dinner with friends, and somebody orders the fancy cocktail, and you're drinking water. And then you're like, oh, and that's the mindset I was in when I was a student. I want to get out of that, and now the times have changed. Forcing myself to spend that this year.

And again, I'm not wasting any money, because like I said, I don't want to waste money. I want to protect it in case one day I definitely will be giving it away. And the third thing that's helped with that is also allowing myself to enjoy investment. So rather than just dump all my money into Vanguard index funds, which is what I've done for the last 20 years, instead, I'm thinking about buying a house, for example.

So to me, that's an ultimate luxury. It's not really a great investment, but I think it's a luxury that I'm really looking forward to right now, and my wife is as well. So in my mind, as I think about it as an investment, rather than me spending on myself, which that makes it a lot easier to accept.

So I think that's something we're going to do over the next few months, is buy a house in Scotland, and hopefully make it really comfortable and nice and all of that. And then for the music stuff, it's like, instead of buying the cheapest synthesizer that'll let me make the sounds, I buy the one that's going to hold its value the best, and it's going to maybe be a future classic that is going to maybe even go up in value.

So that's helping me spend a bit more in the near term, but then hopefully getting a lot of enjoyment out of it, and then maybe even making it an investment where I'm, if not making money, at least not losing money. And that's been helpful in mentally being able to spend on myself a little bit more.

And I'm sorry, but I forgot the second question. Living abroad versus being FI in the States. Sure. Yeah. So luckily, so that was one thing I never skimped on when we were in our 20s, and I'm thankful for that. We did travel. I was really good at travel hacking.

That's like, I love doing stuff like that. That's like having spreadsheets and plans, and that's like how my brain loves to be all the time. So travel hacking was just right in my wheelhouse. So we visited, I think, 50 countries over our lifetime so far, and we had great, great trips, and it didn't break the bank.

But obviously, yeah, especially since now that COVID has sort of made travel a bit less fun where I'm so glad I didn't skimp on that when we were younger. But now, I don't know if it's because I'm older, I'm turning 40 this year. I don't know. I feel like I've got that out of my system.

I feel like it's out of my system. And now, we just flip-flop back between Scotland and America because my wife's family is in Scotland and my family is in America. And luckily, those are two great, beautiful, rich places that have so much to offer that you can continue to explore for a lifetime and not get bored with them.

So we're always so excited to do that. But now, I think our travel is more based around people. So it's not, "All right, which country could we go to to see these things or eat these foods or whatever?" It's now like, "All right, where could we go to see these people and have fun with them?" So that's been a huge shift.

So I think travel is going to decrease for us in the future as well. It's just going to be mainly just bouncing between those two places. As far as how that impacts Fi, I know travel in my 20s was very impactful in showing me that what I thought was normal in America was actually extremely extravagant.

And there's a lot of really unfortunate situations out there where people are really struggling to get by. And that allowed me to keep my spending in check, I think, and never feel like I deserved nicer things or anything like that. So that was huge. Just having given me the mindset to save so much money over those years.

But as far as now, I just became a British citizen on July 1st, which was really exciting after so long and so many applications trying to get it. So now we don't have to worry about visas and stuff. But obviously, the healthcare thing, that's a huge weight off my chest now.

I guess it's like the national healthcare, National Health Service is fantastic in Scotland. So there are benefits in places. It's probably more difficult to pursue Fi there, just because of the higher taxes and things like that. And there's less loopholes, which is what my whole site was built on back in the earlier days was just finding interesting loopholes for early retirees or future early retirees.

So there's a lot less of that. But then there's a bigger social safety net. So you have a lot more stuff covered as well. So yeah, I don't know if that exactly answers your question, but hopefully it's helpful. Yeah, that was very helpful. Thanks. So a few things. In what you said, one is that you're considering buying a house, I'm certain that the Boglehead audience would like to hear more about, especially given how analytical you are, and how, you know, you commented, it's not necessarily a good investment, or it's often not a good investment.

But also, if you could talk about on top of that, share your thoughts. So you mentioned you were considering buying real estate as a part time investment. So you mentioned, you know, like a unit near a ski resort that you could you could use personally when you in ski season, and then you could rent it out when you're not using it.

And then COVID happened. So obviously, that changed. But how are your your thoughts going forward on that? Does it still interest you? And then can you elaborate on your purchase analysis and how you decided where you're currently leaning? Sure. Yeah, no. So that that plan is pretty much out the window.

And again, that's always me coming back to my default, which is like, how could I optimize this for the numbers as perfectly as possible? And that that whole plan of having two places, one in Scotland, one in America. And the thought was that we would buy in places that the peak tourist season was pretty much opposite.

So we could live in the non high peak tourist place while we rent out the peak tourist place, and then use that money to pay for the other one and then vice versa. And it was all a numbers thing in it. And that's again, it's just old habits die hard, I'm trying to get out of making numbers only decisions, which is where Ramit comes in, where he's like, there's more than a spreadsheet and you have to live outside the spreadsheet.

And, you know, sometimes decisions should be more than just like optimizing numbers. So I realized like, all the stress that could come from renting things out, and, and, and at least I know myself well enough to know that that would just cause a huge amount of stress because yeah, I'm an introverted guy, and I do enjoy interacting with people.

But yeah, conflict with people that I just know that if I'm a landlord, I'm not going to be too happy, and I'll probably be a lot more stressed. So it would just add a lot of negative things. And yeah, the numbers may be great. But yeah, I don't think would actually benefit.

So so now the idea is to just buy a base in Scotland, you know, finally get to enjoy some of our stuff that has been we just literally today, Jill and I were in that closet, I'm at my dad's house, going through that closet, because there's boxes in there that we haven't seen since we moved out of Vermont, like six years ago or something.

So yeah, being reunited with all that stuff is going to be nice. And then we can just store it all in Scotland. And then when we come to the states, and yeah, if we want to go skiing, we can just rent an Airbnb or if we want to, you know, come to Pittsburgh and see all of my family here, we can just rent an apartment in the city or I think it'll allow us to be a lot more flexible in the states.

And then in Scotland, we'll have a home base to go back to. And that's when I can, you know, the idea is to like, yeah, Scotland will be the place where we can get stuff done and see Jill's family and just really spend time with them. And Jill can work if she wants to pick up some shifts and things like that.

And in the states, we can just use that time to see people here and have fun and do things like skiing and visiting friends. So so yeah, it's changed quite a lot. And then as far as the end of the analysis for buying a place in Scotland, not really not really looking at it numbers based trying not to at least we know where we want to be, we know the type of property we want.

Thankfully, it hasn't popped up yet, because we're in the states for we're not going to be back in Scotland till mid October. So hopefully, we can deal with that when we get back. But yeah, I think it's hopefully, hopefully just going to be the property that decides it and not any crazy number analysis for me and I can just, I have some money set aside.

It's like for that. And yeah, hopefully, we just find a property that that works and then try to be homeowners again after renting for so long now. That sounds fantastic. It's a another example of optimizing for happiness. So I'm sensitive of the group's time, I think we have about four or five minutes before we go to the group's questions.

So as you and I wrap up, even though clearly, we could, you know, keep talking about so many different things. And I think folks, you know, find a lot of this practical and insightful. On that note, you've commented that you're, you're not in this five space to be evangelical, you started the blog to kind of keep yourself accountable, right with an external motivator.

And it helps people who are already interested in the journey. So this question is really like for a lot of bogal heads, they're the beacon in their community, whether it's a social circle or family, people come to them for guidance and advice. What have you seen in the space, because there's so much advice out there, right?

And certain things resonate with some people more than others, obviously, what have you seen be most effective for the folks that want to improve, they want to save better, they want to invest better, but they find it so incredibly challenging? Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's tough. It's a tough one for me, just because it has come so naturally, like I said before, it's just been such a focus in my life for some reason, for so long.

I guess it would have to just go back to tracking and really, like, so this is probably a good actual example. So I have another personal spreadsheet, where I just in a cell, just one column will have like all the thing, all the big purchases I made that year.

And then another column will have, and it doesn't like all the spreadsheet purists are gonna be like, you don't need a spreadsheet for that. But I just love working with cells. So then I'll have another column, that's the highlights of the year. And I think, like, obviously, if I was struggling with that, I think that would be really beneficial to keep those lists, you know, your big purchases, and then your highlights, and then revisit it in future years.

And, you know, tracking your spending is obviously huge. And I think like, yeah, tracking your spending, and then tracking these big purchases, I think would be the first step because I feel like a lot of people maybe are just, you know, buying what other people think, or they see other people doing that, and they're buying and it's really not adding to their happiness in any way.

So I think writing those things down, and then looking back on it, be like, Oh, actually, those things weren't really that important, or that trip wasn't that great. Or eating out wasn't that great. So yeah, but again, though, I'm like I said, I'm, I'm so naturally focused on this stuff that it's a bit harder for me to think about what would be really beneficial.

But I think, even now, as I'm trying to come to grips with my new spending patterns, it's been helpful for me. And it's something Yeah, that I still do. So it's just recording all the all the big purchases, all the highlights, and then trying to figure out, what does that mean for what I actually enjoy or get value out of?

Great. Yeah, that's, it's definitely helpful to hear. And for folks who who don't know, mad scientist compiled a PDF of the one piece of advice answers that he got from his podcast guests. So that's available at mad scientist slash advice, I believe you go to that, enter your email, you'll get that PDF, basically instantly.

So in closing, before we turn it over to audience questions, you mentioned James clear as atomic habits. I think that's a universal favorite. Everyone I know that's read it just kind of swears by it on top of the other habit books out there that preceded it. Very practical. And you mentioned ultra learning any other books you recommend or documentaries, especially for the bogal head crowd doesn't need to be finance related could be, you know, spanning life.

Yeah. Um, so JL Collins, the author of The Simple Path to Wealth, he was my second podcast guest way back in 2012, way before The Simple Path to Wealth. And he had recommended how to obtain freedom in an unfree world, Harry Brown. And there's a lot in that book that are, you know, like, I definitely don't agree with it all.

My wife particularly had big issues with some of it. But it did make you think a little bit differently about the boxes you put yourself in and the constraints that are all self imposed, pretty much, I would say in a lot of cases. And you know, back then 2012, you know, fire wasn't as big of a thing and definitely wasn't anywhere near mainstream, like it got to be in 2018, or things like that.

So that helped just, yeah, with my mindset at like, oh, actually, society doesn't know best and these other people don't know best and the things that I think I'm restricted by aren't actually restrictions, they're just my own mental restrictions. And I can actually do anything that I really want.

So that was I would say that was a pretty impactful non financial book. Early Retirement Extreme, that was what got me into this in the first place I saw in 2011. I think it was that J.D. Roth on Get Rich Slowly had interviewed or had written a book review of Early Retirement Extreme.

And that that reads like a academic book. But there's a lot of a lot of great stuff in there that, you know, I've read it at least three times, and finally got to speak to Jacob just last year, which was a which was a big thrill for me, because he was the thing that he was the guy that made the light bulb go off in my head.

So yeah, Early Retirement Extreme is still still one of my favorites. So those two, I would, I would give as something to check out with an open mind. And yeah, it's not they're not Bibles. But yeah, they'll hopefully get you thinking. Fantastic. Well, thanks again. I meant to mention earlier, when we're talking about relationships that your wife, Jill has a guest post on your blog, and also a podcast conversation that if folks haven't listened to, I highly recommend those very engaging, very just warm and enjoyable.

So with that, Brandon, thanks again, you're, you know, we're still continuing, but I want to turn it over to Miriam, Carol, and Manny, and the folks who are running the questions on the chat. And those folks will be asking the questions from the audience. Oh, yeah. Before you move over.

Thanks a lot, Gorrie. It's always a pleasure to chat with you. And yeah, we'll see you back in Edinburgh soon. Love that. And likewise. Thank you, Gorrie. Thank you, Mad Scientist. That was a wonderful, wonderful discussion. I enjoyed it very much. I'm going to remove you from spotlight. So hold on here while I do that.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.