How to build a brand from the ground up through Research, Strategy, Identity and Design

00:00:00.000 | - You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs, where we give you practical insights into jobs and

00:00:10.920 | careers.

00:00:11.920 | Today, we're joined by Sarah Burley and Gareth Strange.

00:00:14.240 | How are you guys doing?

00:00:16.040 | - Good, thanks, Tim.

00:00:17.880 | - Very well.

00:00:18.880 | - All right, so I worked with you at a previous company in everything around a topic of brand.

00:00:23.360 | Can you tell me a little bit about what you're doing today?

00:00:26.920 | - Well, today is bank holiday in the UK, and so we're in true kind of working-for-yourself

00:00:35.240 | style, trying to catch up and hit some deadlines today, and we're going away with work next

00:00:40.580 | week, actually, so we're sort of working towards that, so it's a lot of fun.

00:00:46.280 | - So you and I, we got introduced to each other at a previous company, where you're

00:00:50.040 | an agency, and you're dealing with everything brand.

00:00:52.440 | Can you tell us a little bit about John and Jane and what your roles are?

00:00:55.960 | - Yeah, sure, so John and Jane is a tiny design and branding studio in Wales.

00:01:05.160 | We started it seven and a half years ago now, so the name John and Jane is basically us

00:01:09.360 | two.

00:01:10.360 | It's our middle names, but it was also a concept around kind of wanting to put the work first

00:01:14.960 | and let the names take a backseat, kind of like slightly linked to John and Jane Doe,

00:01:20.400 | but yeah, we set up seven and a half years ago to do branding, design, strategy, and

00:01:26.360 | Sarah's skillset of being very good with discovery and very good with the strategy side of things,

00:01:32.800 | and I take care more of the visual side, so our skillsets complement each other really

00:01:36.160 | well.

00:01:37.160 | So over the last seven and a half years, we've been working with lots of different types

00:01:40.440 | of clients, from tiny little businesses to big tech companies, and it's been fun so far.

00:01:48.000 | So I'm kind of curious, so just for historical speaking for everyone, so it's been many years

00:01:54.240 | since we've worked together.

00:01:56.360 | Early this calendar, actually last calendar year, I went through a period of unemployment,

00:02:03.360 | and so I was just trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and from that time of self-discovery,

00:02:09.320 | this podcast idea was born, and I'm kind of curious, before I even got it off the ground,

00:02:16.080 | what is it that you saw that made you want to get involved?

00:02:19.000 | Because I can tell you guys, I was really struggling with that final 10% of getting

00:02:24.640 | this thing off the ground, and your involvement was so impactful that I hit that reset button

00:02:31.280 | on that intended launch date.

00:02:32.840 | So can you just tell me a little bit about why you decided to work with me, and what

00:02:37.040 | did you see that you thought you could provide some help and value?

00:02:40.040 | Well, obviously, like you said, we worked together at your previous agency, and we collaborated

00:02:47.120 | on quite cool brand new projects there, and always enjoyed working with you, and the collaboration

00:02:53.920 | was always good.

00:02:55.280 | So obviously, we've linked on LinkedIn, and I think it comes back to that thing of being

00:03:01.680 | almost open with the process a little bit, which I think designers are well-known for

00:03:06.720 | kind of keeping everything buried down, but when you are open to the community, and you

00:03:10.800 | share your struggles, and it's not just all a big show reel, you kind of open up the conversation

00:03:16.600 | for other people to come in.

00:03:17.600 | And I think as a designer sometimes, for me, when something like with John and Jane, as

00:03:21.480 | soon as John and Jane had a logo, it kind of felt real then.

00:03:24.280 | So when you kind of shared a video, I think it was a video or a post, talking about your

00:03:30.280 | process, you've got this idea for the podcast, you've got the set of colors that you want

00:03:35.200 | to work with, but you felt the typography wasn't quite right.

00:03:38.040 | And straightaway, I could see how we could potentially help you.

00:03:42.480 | And the idea of collaborating again, was obviously very appealing.

00:03:45.800 | So I reached out, and yeah, the rest is history.

00:03:50.720 | Yeah, I think when we chatted about it internally, as we sort of saw your story progress, really.

00:03:57.360 | And I think like Gareth said, he obviously straightaway had ideas visually about how

00:04:01.940 | we could potentially help you provide some sort of assets, because that's obviously what

00:04:05.680 | you were sort of talking about and looking for.

00:04:08.600 | And then also, we just had a lot of time for what you were doing, we loved the fact that

00:04:13.360 | you were, like Gareth said, being very open and transparent.

00:04:16.840 | And I think, as you mentioned multiple times on your podcast, job market can be pretty

00:04:21.880 | scary and quite isolating, quite cold.

00:04:24.000 | And I think, you know, over the years, we've sort of always been really interested in that

00:04:29.080 | community side of sharing that kind of genuine experience, because let's be honest, there's

00:04:32.500 | a lot of kind of gloss and getting underneath that, I think it's so helpful for other people

00:04:37.420 | and really rewarding and helpful for ourselves, let's be honest, like, you know, sharing that

00:04:41.860 | genuine experience.

00:04:42.860 | So I think from a copy and messaging perspective, as well, it was like, not not easy, but we

00:04:48.620 | were kind of really feeling it.

00:04:49.620 | So we had some ideas.

00:04:50.620 | And we thought, well, you know, maybe, maybe we can collaborate and help in some way.

00:04:57.180 | Yeah.

00:04:58.180 | So what you're referring to was, you know, during that time, I'd released a video, talking

00:05:02.440 | about what I'm struggling with.

00:05:05.140 | And there was a video specifically where I had reached out to the community and be like,

00:05:08.920 | hey, look, if you guys need any help during this period, where we're all searching for

00:05:12.840 | jobs, like hit me up as a sounding board.

00:05:15.040 | And that turned into some insights I discovered that time where people were just struggling

00:05:20.200 | on reinventing themselves or seeing if their, their skills can transition to other fields

00:05:25.240 | because they were not getting anything out there and on job market.

00:05:28.080 | And so, yeah, I think I think you're right, that the authenticity to tone and how that

00:05:34.280 | is a baseline for brand and building credibility is really important.

00:05:38.720 | And I'm kind of curious for in your guys' point of view, like, what makes a good brand

00:05:43.400 | and we can talk to how that applied to the work we did together.

00:05:46.880 | But in general, like, what are you what are you typically looking for?

00:05:50.440 | You know, what is that process where you are able to evaluate maybe someone's brand presence

00:05:56.580 | or just whatever those elements are?

00:05:58.360 | And then what steps do you take to kind of start putting some, maybe a process or workflow

00:06:05.520 | around kind of getting that to a better place?

00:06:08.080 | Yeah.

00:06:09.080 | Brand is a funny one, really, I think if you asked 100 people what branding is, you'd probably

00:06:15.560 | get dozens of different answers.

00:06:18.340 | And it's a quote that we love, and we refer to when we're doing workshops all the time,

00:06:21.840 | and we're branding, there's only one thing that matters, and that's everything.

00:06:27.020 | And it's, and it's, it's kind of true, it's like a brand can go and spend a fortune building,

00:06:32.240 | building an amazing visual brand, an amazing service, and that can all be torn down with

00:06:39.060 | like one bad customer service, potentially, and that could change the whole brand in someone

00:06:43.820 | in that one person's mind immediately.

00:06:46.200 | So I think when we're working with brands, and we're trying to discover, like brands

00:06:49.520 | that we want to work with, brands that we want to help, it comes down to, I think a

00:06:55.280 | lot of the time is purpose.

00:06:56.280 | What are they trying to do?

00:06:57.280 | Is there a real goal at the heart of it?

00:06:58.280 | Is there a concept that we can kind of lean to?

00:06:59.280 | Is there a story we can, we can, we can cling on to?

00:07:00.280 | Yeah.

00:07:01.280 | And I think that's the kind of going towards the sort of USP, you know, and that's obviously

00:07:02.280 | part of the discovery process, is always trying to figure that out, whether it's one person

00:07:04.360 | or, you know, a large organisational business.

00:07:20.400 | And I think that's a really key thing.

00:07:21.400 | But I think that that saying we like, it kind of does work across the board, because even

00:07:27.400 | speaking, like in terms of design, and like the visual offering, every single little thing

00:07:32.360 | matters.

00:07:33.360 | And the type of choice, you know, affects everything, the colour affects everything,

00:07:37.680 | feeling, you know, represents a million things.

00:07:40.940 | And I think the same could be said in terms of discovery, and that process that you mentioned,

00:07:45.560 | because, you know, when that's what we can obviously do every day, and looking at a person

00:07:50.360 | or a group or a large organisation, we feel like, you know, our jobs is to filling that

00:07:56.320 | down into that kind of real essence of what they're, not only what their purpose is, but

00:08:01.220 | I think also what they do, and who they are, because we, you know, we have that second

00:08:06.040 | snapshot.

00:08:07.040 | And that's what branding helps us do, is to communicate in just a couple of seconds what

00:08:10.600 | you're all about.

00:08:11.600 | So we see that as our job, really, and it is literally starting really, really wide,

00:08:15.200 | and just to sink down into that.

00:08:16.200 | And I think that's the going back to the that video you put out, I think that one of the

00:08:22.040 | reasons was a few reasons we wanted to kind of reach out and help where we possibly could,

00:08:27.400 | because obviously, the past collaboration, but also, it was that sense of community was

00:08:31.180 | that sense that you you find yourself in that spot, where you were looking to then make

00:08:36.340 | connections and help others as well.

00:08:38.340 | And it kind of reminds me of a remind both of us a little bit of Creative Mornings, that

00:08:42.340 | it's a global event, but Sarah actually started the Cardiff chapter about 10 years ago.

00:08:46.620 | And it was all about just bringing people together and idea sharing and giving, giving

00:08:53.220 | back to the community, really, and yeah, so community has always been an important thing

00:08:57.540 | for us.

00:08:58.540 | Yeah.

00:08:59.540 | And yeah, quite often, that will come into the brand.

00:09:01.280 | And as you know, you know, that's a huge thing now, even, you know, if you're selling a product

00:09:05.420 | or clothes or anything, or online platforms, it's, it's, it's, that community and building

00:09:12.020 | community has gotten more and more important, and more and more prevalent, hasn't it, that

00:09:16.300 | speak, and storytelling, all those sorts of things.

00:09:18.620 | And I think they've always been there, but I just think that we're getting more and more

00:09:22.140 | sort of explicit terms for things, because the branding world is maturing, almost, you

00:09:26.660 | know, service, and these roles that we all have, which, to be honest, for a while, nobody

00:09:31.260 | really knew who, you know, what these specialisms were called, but of course, they're kind of

00:09:35.540 | starting to come clear now.

00:09:37.220 | And those processes are starting to become a bit more recognisable, and, you know, and

00:09:44.220 | standardised, really.

00:09:45.220 | And people aren't so surprised anymore, if you do speak about a discovery session, or,

00:09:49.820 | you know, that part of the branding process, rather than just having a logo, for example,

00:09:53.940 | people are a lot more enfei with that process, and understand that there's a bit more to

00:09:57.460 | it than that.

00:09:58.460 | Yeah, you know, it's interesting, you're, you're coming about distilling things down

00:10:03.340 | to a core, that's easily understandable is really important, because that's where I struggled

00:10:10.140 | in the beginning.

00:10:11.140 | So, like, I had this idea in my head of what I want this thing to be, but I couldn't put

00:10:17.220 | words to it, right.

00:10:19.260 | And I remember in our first discovery session, you guys are real quick, you guys asked so

00:10:23.380 | many good questions, ranging from my vision, my and my purpose, my mission, and what I'm

00:10:29.820 | trying to do with this, what kind of takeaways do you want my audience to be getting from

00:10:34.800 | these videos, both from an emotional point of view, as well as professional.

00:10:39.300 | And you took all that, and you distilled it down to a single problem or mission statement

00:10:46.620 | that characterized exactly what was going on between my ears.

00:10:49.980 | And that was so helpful.

00:10:51.580 | You know, I think a lot of companies, they, actually, the larger the company, the more

00:10:55.900 | personalities you have there, and a lot of influence on to what messaging is, the problem

00:11:00.120 | is then that you have so many perspectives, it's hard to boil it down to one single statement

00:11:04.860 | that can then be the foundation to build a brand.

00:11:07.660 | And it was cool to see that happen firsthand, and you totally got it.

00:11:12.740 | And I posted that on LinkedIn, because I was so excited about it, and it got a lot of reaction,

00:11:17.900 | you know, and people are like, "Oh, that's so cool."

00:11:19.500 | And like, "No, I totally get it."

00:11:22.420 | And the other way I've operationalized that is when I bring in additional guests, I usually

00:11:27.660 | I have like a letter that's sent out, and that's made its way into the letter, because

00:11:32.020 | it's articulating what I'm thinking in my vision and getting alignment.

00:11:37.060 | And I'm kind of curious, you guys, because there's setting the message or messaging,

00:11:44.880 | and then there's taking that and then applying, let's say, visual or stylings to it through

00:11:49.660 | like a, like you guys went through like a mood board exercise.

00:11:52.380 | And up to that point, all I knew was that the, I guess the keywords that are important

00:11:59.380 | to me was like authenticity, professionalism, and then like relatability and transparency/genuine,

00:12:07.620 | right?

00:12:09.300 | And the only work I'd done after that point was thinking through colors.

00:12:14.580 | And so the color I had kind of doubled down on was like blue, right?

00:12:20.540 | If anyone in the B2B is wondering like, why everyone uses blue, like, why did Dell use

00:12:25.100 | blue?

00:12:26.100 | Why did IBM use blue?

00:12:27.100 | And like, like LinkedIn uses blue?

00:12:28.100 | It's because blue represents confidence, right?

00:12:30.740 | And credibility.

00:12:31.740 | And that's why those companies use it.

00:12:33.540 | And the, so I decided I wanted blue, although I was testing between blue and purple, because

00:12:39.700 | I didn't know.

00:12:40.900 | And the other color I wanted was orange, only because if you look at the color wheel, they're

00:12:46.160 | opposite ends of the spectrum.

00:12:47.520 | So the contrast really well.

00:12:49.220 | And as a web marketer, I know that when it comes to like user engagement on websites,

00:12:55.100 | like, like a orange accent over blue tests really, really well, right?

00:13:00.460 | A lot of click through.

00:13:01.460 | But that's literally it.

00:13:02.540 | I struggled with the icon, a logo.

00:13:05.220 | It looks very cartoony in the beginning because I was looking at all the other podcasts out

00:13:09.260 | there.

00:13:10.260 | They look really fun and whatnot.

00:13:11.260 | So that's, I tried to emulate that, but just nothing was hitting the mark.

00:13:14.740 | So can you break down your process?

00:13:16.260 | Like when you saw that, what was your reaction?

00:13:19.540 | Was it positive or negative?

00:13:21.220 | And what kind of led you down the path of where you end up leading the design direction?

00:13:27.060 | When we, the question is, when we first saw like what you had put together?

00:13:31.020 | Yeah.

00:13:32.020 | Like, what was your, like, was it like an adverse reaction or we're like, okay, now

00:13:34.580 | we knew, we know where we need to take this thing.

00:13:37.300 | Well, I think it's just, I think it's potential.

00:13:40.380 | I think we saw potential, I think in what you told us and what you were actually doing,

00:13:44.180 | it was so much potential to the project.

00:13:46.540 | But I think a lot of the basics were there.

00:13:48.900 | I think the color palette is, it was really strong and I think just kind of like, just

00:13:53.900 | tinkering with that a little bit and, and just all those things, all those things we

00:13:59.220 | learned, authentic, friendly, I think your personality has to come across that you are

00:14:03.340 | the personality of the podcast.

00:14:04.940 | And it's obvious that you've had experience within and around branding as you have over

00:14:09.940 | the years.

00:14:10.940 | So I think you bring that information to this process as well, which is really helpful.

00:14:14.820 | It means actually you are 10 steps ahead of perhaps where somebody who hasn't had that

00:14:19.140 | experience is.

00:14:20.140 | So that's always helpful.

00:14:21.140 | Yeah.

00:14:22.140 | You might feel like maybe the end product needs some, you know, a bit of bit more work, but

00:14:25.780 | I mean that you're still 10 steps ahead.

00:14:28.260 | So I think for us, any input like that, it's always helpful.

00:14:31.420 | But I think your, your like ideas around color theory as well, were like well informed, is

00:14:37.380 | that you've got blue, which is a very trusted, very corporate color.

00:14:40.020 | You are talking about corporate jobs a lot of the time, but then you've got that orange,

00:14:43.940 | which is a much like in terms of color theory, it's a happy, positive, creative color.

00:14:48.700 | And you're bringing all that to, to this as well.

00:14:51.860 | So, and again, like you said, they are opposite ends of the spectrum.

00:14:55.740 | They contrast really well.

00:14:57.260 | And I just think we're doing like, like you've done a lot of digital marketing and web stuff

00:15:02.580 | and just A/B testing.

00:15:03.580 | We've done a lot of that over the years as well.

00:15:06.020 | And it's so interesting.

00:15:07.020 | You put something up blue and then you put something up orange and it just outperforms.

00:15:10.660 | And it's just, it's, I guess it just must be something to do with that color that just

00:15:15.180 | attracts people a little bit more.

00:15:16.820 | But then when you've got both of them, you can kind of dial up and dial down and like

00:15:20.940 | you can use both colors.

00:15:22.300 | So it's, yeah, I think when we, when we saw it, it was like, it all made a lot of sense.

00:15:26.460 | But we just thought with the right typography, tweaking of the colors and identity that,

00:15:30.740 | I think you had a strong idea for the identity as well, which we kind of just helped nurture

00:15:34.380 | a little bit.

00:15:35.380 | You also have some great photographs, which is massively helpful, you know, that they

00:15:39.740 | felt, they felt like you, they felt like talking to you as it were, and your personality came

00:15:43.860 | through.

00:15:44.860 | And that's a big part of it.

00:15:45.860 | I think we, we asked you to go and take these photographs and we just said, have fun with

00:15:49.820 | it, get your personality across and you didn't, you didn't hold back.

00:15:52.620 | It's like, it's quite a difficult thing to do, isn't it?

00:15:55.100 | But you like, obviously starting off this, it's not like a big professional photo shoot

00:15:59.340 | or anything, but the photos you've got, I think you've, I was looking at the podcast

00:16:02.980 | on Apple podcast the other day and it just makes me so happy just seeing the cover and

00:16:08.140 | all the episodes there.

00:16:09.140 | I think you've done a great job.

00:16:10.980 | That was such a painful exercise because I am, I am not photogenic at all.

00:16:17.220 | So it, it took me a long time to get to something where I was like, oh, this is probably worth

00:16:20.780 | sending to them.

00:16:21.780 | And I, going through all, all my blinks, you know, and like the weird, awkward, like, it's

00:16:26.540 | like, it's like talented and nice.

00:16:28.580 | It's like Ricky Bobby has like his hands, I was like, I don't know what to do with my

00:16:31.340 | hands.

00:16:32.340 | It's pretty much that, but like in picture form.

00:16:34.500 | Yeah.

00:16:35.500 | So can you walk us through, maybe like the practical steps, you know, you mentioned things

00:16:39.140 | like having a strong perspective on your approach to typography or colors or how you turn that

00:16:46.020 | into a digital expression or whatever that looks like, right?

00:16:51.680 | What, what do you go with, like, what's your thinking process as you're choosing these?

00:16:55.220 | Like, like maybe walk us through how you think about fonts, you know, or colors or any of

00:16:59.940 | those elements that build up to your ultimate, you know, is your strategy or visuals?

00:17:04.020 | Well, I think like, especially, you know, using yourself as an example, I think that

00:17:12.100 | discovery and that sort of conversation and figuring out kind of what your manifesto is.

00:17:16.360 | I think that that's where, well, that's the really sort of magical part of branding that

00:17:20.780 | we really enjoy working on together, isn't it?

00:17:22.660 | Because I think we collate all that information together, you know, but then there, there

00:17:27.100 | is that crossover point where maybe it's all up on the wall or the words, and then of course,

00:17:32.580 | it's translating that, as you say, into these sort of deliverables.

00:17:35.300 | But, you know, in your, your case, you know, the type is kind of blurry, there's nothing's

00:17:41.260 | too sharp, nothing's too shiny, which is a direct sort of reference and translation to

00:17:47.340 | our messaging, which is, you know, life's not a straight line, you know, job, your job

00:17:52.620 | kind of career can be a mess, and that's okay, you know, humans are messy.

00:17:57.740 | And so, you know, it's just bringing those sort of conceptual parts to it as well.

00:18:01.940 | But, and that's kind of where I feel like then, of course, you formalise the type choices,

00:18:06.300 | the colour choices, and translate that into the design style.

00:18:10.420 | Yeah, obviously, when it comes to typography and colours, it's all very subjective design.

00:18:14.940 | But I think that's one thing that, why I love working with Sarah so much, she's so good

00:18:19.420 | at like drawing all that information out in a way that makes sense.

00:18:22.900 | And just being part of those workshops, whether it's like a workshop with yourself, which

00:18:27.420 | is obviously a very small business, or where we have to go and do multiple workshops across

00:18:32.700 | multiple departments across multiple cities.

00:18:36.020 | It's the process.

00:18:37.020 | And I think that's, we've got that process that we know and trust.

00:18:39.780 | When Sarah gives me that information, it is about then kind of making the right choices,

00:18:44.460 | what typeface is going to reflect your personality or the brand's personality in its best possible

00:18:48.820 | way.

00:18:49.820 | And like Sarah said, we've got like a court wall here, and when we're working, we might

00:18:53.660 | put stuff up.

00:18:54.660 | But what I tend to do is I sometimes like save logos or save typefaces to my screensaver

00:19:01.300 | on my phone.

00:19:02.300 | I'll just look at it for the next couple of days, just let it like sink in.

00:19:04.380 | Living with it.

00:19:05.380 | Yeah, just living with it.

00:19:06.380 | And then, and then you go, oh, maybe that's not quite right, and you move on.

00:19:09.860 | And until you make a final decision, and just like we presented your brand, we always present

00:19:14.500 | just one concept, because we've gone through all these motions, like trying dozens of typefaces

00:19:19.660 | out, trying to find that right typeface that represents the brand, the way that we feel

00:19:24.820 | works best.

00:19:25.820 | So when we present, we present confidently just that one concept, because if you present

00:19:32.240 | like three concepts, sometimes it can like confuse the client, they can say, oh, we like

00:19:36.780 | one, two, and maybe a little bit of three, and then you start having like a down kind

00:19:40.700 | of brand.

00:19:41.700 | So I think it's our process to like, sit with it, live with it, and then just confidently

00:19:46.460 | present what we believe is the best solution for that brand.

00:19:49.820 | I didn't know that.

00:19:51.300 | And that's, that's fascinating.

00:19:53.940 | When I was on the design that the agency side of the world, like earlier in my career, I

00:19:57.780 | did what you just suggested at the end, which is like, let's provide something that's a

00:20:02.340 | design concept that's like out of the world, kind of crazy borderline can't execute one

00:20:07.980 | super conservative, and something conservative, conservative, or maybe medium that they would

00:20:14.380 | most likely land on, and you hope that they pick elements of the others and kind of bring

00:20:18.220 | it to the middle.

00:20:19.220 | But you're talking about going in, like guns blazing with double downing on one single

00:20:24.420 | concept, which I think is really, really brave.

00:20:26.500 | You know, can you share some examples of maybe like a maybe a, a client where like that worked

00:20:32.780 | really, really well, and just took off?

00:20:34.660 | Or maybe some examples were like, that did not fly?

00:20:38.020 | And what did that look like?

00:20:39.020 | The good thing is, it's a process that is that we've developed, I think I worked with

00:20:44.660 | past agencies where the three or four concepts, which was the way, and what we always found

00:20:50.460 | as an internal team would be like, we like that concept, we hope they go with that concept,

00:20:54.660 | that's the best concept.

00:20:55.660 | And maybe they go with another concept, or they would go with, and sometimes like a mashup

00:21:00.380 | of two concepts or three concepts.

00:21:02.500 | So I think we it was something I tried years ago, when I was just doing a little bit of

00:21:06.820 | freelancing on the side of my, my nine to five job.

00:21:09.660 | And it went so well, and it just made a lot of sense to me.

00:21:13.460 | So so we've been doing it since we started John and Jane and touch wood, I'd say I'd

00:21:18.700 | say probably like nine times out of 10, the client signs off that first approach.

00:21:22.980 | I don't think it's necessarily the easiest thing to do, because I think when we that's

00:21:28.660 | not to complain about it.

00:21:29.820 | And I think that's, that's why we do it, but to have that one solo, and sort of executed,

00:21:35.220 | I think our job, then is to completely sell that and explain every sort of reason and

00:21:40.060 | rationale why it's like that.

00:21:41.580 | And to be honest, usually, well, that's, that's the job is to make that impressive enough

00:21:47.020 | and as sort of rational enough that actually people feel really good, people feel really

00:21:52.860 | seen.

00:21:53.860 | And then actually, when you present the solution, they feel actually, yes, you've really like

00:21:58.580 | looked after, you know, because brand is people's babies, essentially, it's an expression of

00:22:03.620 | them.

00:22:04.620 | We appreciate that's a huge responsibility.

00:22:05.620 | So we just try and honor that really, and, and really kind of, and essentially, that

00:22:10.780 | is selling it isn't it back, you know, which we that that that process is quite magical,

00:22:16.380 | I think, if people are really impressed and excited, then that's our job done, then that's

00:22:21.660 | we do have one client who she's moved jobs about three times in the last five, five years

00:22:27.460 | or so.

00:22:28.460 | And whenever she moves jobs, she brings us in to rebrand the company.

00:22:32.620 | And she refers to it, it's like having a baby, so she was like, I'm ready to have a baby.

00:22:36.460 | And it's like, that's actually when she's like, got into a new job or something like

00:22:41.260 | that.

00:22:42.260 | So it's obviously people do care.

00:22:43.260 | And we care about it a hell of a lot as well.

00:22:45.340 | And just making sure we do a good job.

00:22:47.580 | But the good thing is, as well, that with that approach, it's it's not it can be seen

00:22:52.580 | as quite risky.

00:22:53.580 | But like, like I said, we've probably got half a dozen, a dozen concepts in the background,

00:22:58.380 | anyway.

00:22:59.380 | So if they don't like that one concept, which, which we would be confident that they would

00:23:03.180 | feel it was right, we can say, give us a couple of days, we've got a bunch of other concepts,

00:23:07.060 | and we can put something else together fairly quickly as well, because they are, they are

00:23:10.940 | there.

00:23:11.940 | So we've got those those concepts.

00:23:12.940 | Yeah.

00:23:13.940 | I was actually wondering, Tim, about yourself.

00:23:14.940 | So obviously, you've been some agency side, you've been kind of lots of sides, actually

00:23:20.140 | watching the branding process and watching campaigns launch and web design, like, did

00:23:24.820 | it feel different having to creating a brand around yourself rather than sort of with other

00:23:31.340 | businesses?

00:23:32.340 | It was very, very different, and very enjoyable process and very, very scary.

00:23:39.180 | When you guys are selling me the pitch, the visual one was really cool.

00:23:42.820 | Could you so your pitch included this, you did the vision statement, you showed exposition

00:23:51.500 | on color, you explored the concept of a black and white or grayscale photo approach, which

00:24:00.660 | I'd never previously considered.

00:24:03.540 | You showed different elements of the background that goes, like right now, everyone sees there

00:24:08.260 | is a blue and the orange slides in.

00:24:11.100 | But like, it looks like now, now we landed, it was like, like, like a text, like a speech

00:24:16.020 | text bubble, whatever.

00:24:17.020 | Oops, I hit my microphone.

00:24:18.660 | But you gave me like multiple examples of what that would look like.

00:24:22.220 | And there's ones where it was like a, like a fade or a blur.

00:24:24.860 | And there's the typefaces, like you're talking about, like, things are confident, yet there's

00:24:29.700 | a lot of things are unsettled.

00:24:31.420 | And you showed typefaces that kind of broke apart towards the end, I kind of think kind

00:24:36.260 | of faded.

00:24:37.260 | And then, then you showed the logos on hats, a poster, you know, all these tangible things

00:24:45.020 | and made it feel very real.

00:24:46.980 | And that was the first time I was like, oh, like, this can actually be like a real thing,

00:24:50.660 | like seeing it out in the wild.

00:24:52.740 | You know, I haven't done the hat thing yet, it's on my list.

00:24:56.620 | But that was really, really cool.

00:24:58.460 | And that really hit home for me.

00:25:00.580 | And it made me and now the baby, there's the brand, it feels like it's something that can

00:25:06.980 | actually happen.

00:25:07.980 | And that's what got me over that last hump, where I knew I was like, you know what, this

00:25:11.980 | is totally worth doing a reset.

00:25:15.900 | It was totally worth a potential awkward conversation where I already had a designer and you're

00:25:21.360 | coming in essentially undoing all of it.

00:25:24.700 | But it was worth it.

00:25:26.420 | That's kind of like what I was processing at the time.

00:25:28.060 | Yeah.

00:25:29.060 | Yeah, it's not always easy.

00:25:30.060 | And that goes to show even just, you know, on your own doing your own podcast, there's

00:25:35.980 | always some politics to deal with.

00:25:38.620 | I feel like that's a huge part of the discovery phase of a rebrand or a new brand as well.

00:25:44.700 | It's always emotional.

00:25:45.700 | It's always because even if it's a sort of established brand, and you're going to change

00:25:50.380 | it, that's really tricky because people love the old brand, or maybe love some parts of

00:25:54.780 | the old brand, it just doesn't feel right to change it.

00:25:57.060 | So you're up against that, you know, so there's always a lot of politics or kind of, yeah,

00:26:04.180 | I think that the discovery phase can help with that though, because it can really help

00:26:07.860 | everyone to put their view forward and have some part in shaping it.

00:26:14.140 | And that helps people adopt it then, of course, and love it and think of it as their own.

00:26:18.220 | So, you know, it's turning those challenges around, I think, and I appreciate that's tricky

00:26:22.940 | when, you know, you've maybe done design work, but we obviously have to often work with other

00:26:27.660 | designers and perhaps feed into that, maybe suggest changes as they do with us.

00:26:31.260 | I mean, it's not like, you know, you have to be able to take that kind of to a very

00:26:35.300 | less collaboration.

00:26:36.300 | It's not personal.

00:26:37.300 | It's like, I think that's something that all designers need to learn is that it's like,

00:26:40.100 | because you do get quite attached to your work.

00:26:41.980 | And when someone has constructive feedback, it's not personal.

00:26:46.020 | And obviously, we all just want the best outcome for any project.

00:26:50.740 | So can we shift the conversation a little bit about just the industry or career path

00:26:55.220 | that is everything to do with brand, you know, like, can you just help me understand like

00:26:59.900 | your path and journey to here, right, because, you know, most of the designers I work with

00:27:06.820 | are your, you know, design creatives, UI, UX type.

00:27:10.760 | The skill set for brand is a little different, because there's a lot of strategy around that.

00:27:14.020 | And I think I'm assuming a lot of that has to come with personal experience to be able

00:27:17.740 | to have a conversation on brand, because there's a lot of things that go beyond that, right?

00:27:22.540 | Like, you're looking at personas, you're looking at your audience, there's so much more to

00:27:25.940 | it.

00:27:26.940 | So can you just help me understand like, your just your career path, like how did you what

00:27:30.100 | led you here?

00:27:31.100 | And like, what, when you decided to go to this branch, specifically of creative?

00:27:37.660 | I think, I think, like, we just touched upon earlier, I think this industry is kind of

00:27:42.900 | grown up quite a lot in the last, I'd say, it's been 15 years, I've probably been working

00:27:47.020 | in that.

00:27:48.020 | Previous to that, after university, I ended up kind of working in logistics, just because

00:27:51.580 | that was the job I could get at the time, but actually, that I really am a strong believer

00:27:56.660 | in transferable skills.

00:27:57.660 | And I think any job you have, you can glean, learn a lot if you have the kind of right

00:28:02.620 | mindset and take that on to many other roles in the future.

00:28:07.020 | And I think in terms of kind of studio management, and project planning, and things like that,

00:28:11.020 | you know, logistics is great grounding, so that's unknowingly really helped.

00:28:15.900 | But, but yeah, I think in the last 15 years, you know, our industry has kind of developed

00:28:23.140 | and, like I said, you know, there's roles there and there's processes there that have

00:28:28.100 | kind of really started to take shape.

00:28:31.700 | And so I yeah.

00:28:33.820 | So yeah, your journey has been kind of like, you went into logistics, you had a Sarah started

00:28:39.540 | a sandwich shop when she was like 19.

00:28:41.700 | And then she's like, kind of went into a digital agency, and you've ended up in design and

00:28:46.260 | branding.

00:28:47.260 | But mine was a lot more linear.

00:28:48.260 | Like, I think at about the age of about 12, I did a logo for my friend's mum.

00:28:54.340 | And I said I wanted to be a graphic designer.

00:28:57.420 | I wasn't sure what a graphic designer was, but I just wanted to be a graphic designer.

00:29:00.340 | So I like drawing, I like being on a computer.

00:29:03.100 | So those two skills felt like they went together quite well.

00:29:07.100 | So I studied art and IT, and went off to university, studied graphic design and became a graphic

00:29:13.900 | designer, worked at a couple of studios, and ended up here.

00:29:16.800 | But I think I think it was the thing that kind of when we first started working together

00:29:21.500 | was with Creative Mornings.

00:29:23.260 | I think I think as well, for me, it all started around content.

00:29:26.460 | So I did my degree, then I studied again, and I studied on I kind of refocused in on

00:29:31.900 | literature and writing.

00:29:32.900 | I love that side of things.

00:29:34.900 | So and then I kind of started working in the design industry.

00:29:39.140 | And I think for me, it's been really interesting to see how that kind of content and strategy

00:29:43.140 | piece has become more of a part, an official part, and an accepted part of branding, you

00:29:49.740 | know, and that kind of bringing meaning and, you know, reason for things and design decisions.

00:29:55.380 | Because I do think that's where that that power comes from with branding.

00:29:59.260 | And when you see really good branding, that's what it's all about.

00:30:02.180 | So yeah, watching that kind of develop has been really interesting.

00:30:05.980 | And I've worked in content and marketing, and again, I think I was I was watching one

00:30:11.500 | of your other podcasts where you're speaking to someone, it's like, is specialism better

00:30:15.420 | or generalism?

00:30:16.420 | And I think, you know, these roles have been crossing over for years.

00:30:20.900 | And, and yeah, so my, my line hasn't been quite so straight, despite being around kind

00:30:25.500 | of design and web design and publishing for a really long time, but I think they do all

00:30:29.860 | feed into this process.

00:30:30.860 | And I think I think that writing element, like you said, the manifesto, or the kind

00:30:34.980 | of the overarching, just it's a paragraph or a couple of paragraphs, but it distills

00:30:39.180 | that brand down.

00:30:40.180 | Whenever Sarah writes that for a branding presentation, it always like gets me excited.

00:30:45.300 | And I always insist that Sarah reads it out.

00:30:47.860 | I do think it is so so powerful to set up.

00:30:51.820 | I think when when, like, a big logo gets released in the media, like one over here, a little

00:30:58.100 | while back was the Olympics in 2012, they put it in the newspaper, and it just got slated.

00:31:05.180 | Because I think when people don't understand the story behind it, they, the initial reaction

00:31:09.260 | is people don't like change, if like, Facebook changes its interface, nobody likes it.

00:31:14.040 | But if through that presentation for the brand presentation we gave to you, and we always

00:31:19.020 | we always give to any brand that we've, we've been working with, once you kind of share

00:31:23.580 | that story, you share that message, and you share that kind of process thing where you've

00:31:26.900 | got to that logo, it's almost like letting people in on the joke, and then they get it.

00:31:30.580 | And I think it just, it goes down so much better, and people just have a better understanding.

00:31:34.980 | Yeah, I don't see it, I do, I do, I think you're right, it's letting people in on that,

00:31:39.420 | for sure, and being almost completely transparent in our thinking, but I think as well as that

00:31:43.740 | for me, and it's just being practiced, and I, I still like any creative thing, I'm sure

00:31:48.700 | you think every time, you don't always start a project going, "Oh my god, I'm gonna nail

00:31:52.100 | this straight away."

00:31:53.100 | You know, you always think, "Oh, this is hard," you know, but that's obviously the challenge

00:31:57.340 | of it, but it's just practice, you know, constantly looking and trying to glean, and what I feel

00:32:03.340 | like it's not letting people in on the joke, it's reflecting back every, as much as what

00:32:07.820 | they've shared with you as possible, and then making something really beautiful and useful

00:32:13.380 | off the back of that, really, so that's, it's like a reflect, I see that's what my job is,

00:32:18.140 | to reflect back, really, and, and puts it into some sort of sense for people to...

00:32:24.140 | It must be really interesting from your, from your end, kind of like, obviously, if you've

00:32:28.620 | got a brand, then you've got to then translate that for product, you've got to translate

00:32:32.660 | it for web, there's so many, like, once you've got that central hub of a brand, it's like

00:32:36.780 | so many areas for it to kind of, so many channels for it to go off on.

00:32:40.940 | Yeah, I mean...

00:32:41.940 | How do you find that?

00:32:42.940 | You know, so it's, it might look like my current job, and actually, the previous three, I would

00:32:47.660 | say, it would be similar, where the brand has been set, meaning there is a palette,

00:32:54.940 | there is the, there's the brand guidelines, they have all been set.

00:33:00.700 | And in all three instances, I feel like the way the web reflects that brand was very limited.

00:33:08.540 | So in, at Rubrik, for example, they had a really strong brand presence, the website

00:33:14.780 | just didn't do it justice.

00:33:16.000 | So in that instance, we were able to do a complete redesign.

00:33:19.100 | Not everyone has the has the luxury of doing a complete replatform.

00:33:24.380 | My company after that at A10 Networks, that one, the brand felt a little more old school.

00:33:32.500 | And that's where I was like, we didn't have budget to do a complete replatform or redesign.

00:33:36.940 | And so the question was, what incremental changes can I make on a website to make it

00:33:41.780 | feel more relevant in a way that I feel like it should be that would engage audiences without

00:33:47.580 | it being a redesign or rehaul, right?

00:33:50.300 | And so that's looking at hero banners, and how can I maybe change that or when I'm looking

00:33:55.020 | at I, the first thing I changed was the icon language.

00:33:58.140 | It's like, hard edges to round edges, you know, solid fill versus non, right?

00:34:04.220 | And, and the challenge with that one was not having the budget to execute at scale.

00:34:09.840 | You have some, you have some mixes and matches of contrasting styles, but it was moving towards

00:34:18.620 | where I want to go.

00:34:19.620 | And my current company, like Fortinet, we've got a great brand.

00:34:23.980 | And the challenge from the website was the execution of it was a little limited.

00:34:30.420 | And that is an example where a website for a company our size, you have to design with

00:34:37.500 | scale in mind from the get go.

00:34:40.420 | And that leads itself to things like templates.

00:34:43.100 | Well, the challenge is, if you go into it thinking templatization, and without a full

00:34:51.540 | view into the user experience, again, I wasn't there when the decisions were made, they're

00:34:55.820 | just just me reflecting on what I see and what I have to work with.

00:35:00.580 | I feel the brand expression is limited.

00:35:02.740 | And so you see, the full range of colors that is in our brand doesn't exist on .com.

00:35:08.620 | We see the primary colors, you see some of the secondary, but the tertiary hardly exists.

00:35:14.060 | And all the wonderful accent colors that are in a secondary palette just aren't there.

00:35:18.460 | And so I think my, my challenge now is, how do I take what I believe to be an incremental

00:35:25.620 | approach and surgically go in and change things categorically.

00:35:31.140 | And so I'm doing an exposition on all hero banners, and when it's done, it needs to roll

00:35:36.980 | out overnight.

00:35:38.600 | And so there's, and then same thing with icons, like once I do it, it's great.

00:35:41.740 | But now you have like, thousands of pages.

00:35:45.160 | And then all of those in the icon library for web is a lot more expansive than typically

00:35:49.740 | what comms uses.

00:35:51.100 | And so the work to recreate is pretty, pretty significant.

00:35:54.140 | So those are things I'm looking at.

00:35:56.260 | And we're making some, we're making some changes.

00:35:59.620 | I'm, I'm a data nerd, so I'm testing things all the darn time.

00:36:04.140 | And thank, and thankfully, the, the brand elements that we're testing in conjunction

00:36:09.820 | with different UI and UX layouts, it's, it's resulting in much higher conversion.

00:36:16.140 | So that the challenge now is rolling that out at scale.

00:36:21.020 | So yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of where we are.

00:36:23.300 | I am hoping that just as a marketing person, like with the next year to two, I would love

00:36:29.220 | to see us do a brand update or refresh, you know, not moving too far from the center of

00:36:33.540 | who we are, but maybe just giving some more flexibility.

00:36:37.380 | And I remember when I was at Rubrik, the, when we did that redesign, the first exercise

00:36:42.180 | was a, a, an exploration on who we were as an archetype for the company.

00:36:50.140 | Are we a renegade company still?

00:36:52.620 | Are we a thought leader, right?

00:36:54.780 | Are, are we the friendly type?

00:36:57.060 | Right, there's all those archetypes.

00:36:58.940 | And once you land on that, then we realize, oh, shoot, you know, as a brand for Rubrik,

00:37:03.020 | like in the beginning, they were renegades, they're, they're, they came out, guns a blazing,

00:37:07.940 | and they're doing all these crazy fun things.

00:37:09.980 | But now it's like, when I joined the company, it's like, they're a multi-million dollar

00:37:13.660 | company.

00:37:14.660 | And like, now they have customers and they're, they can't go as intentionally crazy, even

00:37:18.700 | though like, like John, the, the VP of marketing, he had a brilliant creative mind.

00:37:24.300 | But then like, now it's like the archetype for the company, it's a little different now,

00:37:28.460 | right?

00:37:29.460 | And now you're a leader and you as a leader, and that kind of, you guys actually came in

00:37:33.900 | around the same time because we did that redesign.

00:37:36.860 | We also did Rubrik forward, you guys are hugely involved in like redesigning that whole look

00:37:41.620 | and approach, which is really, really cool to see your, your impact on that.

00:37:45.500 | And I actually borrowed some of that for the website as well.

00:37:47.900 | But yeah, that's just kind of like where I am on the client side of just, how do we do

00:37:52.260 | more with less in today's market, but also elevate the brand at the same time.

00:37:58.260 | It sounds like a wise move, to be honest, because like all brands, they've got, they've

00:38:03.020 | got to keep evolving.

00:38:04.020 | And then the business evolves.

00:38:05.540 | And especially with businesses like Rubrik, it's so fast, isn't it?

00:38:11.020 | Like there is...

00:38:12.020 | Fast and fast.

00:38:13.020 | Yeah.

00:38:14.020 | Like a lot.

00:38:15.020 | And it's moving really quickly.

00:38:16.020 | And things do change.

00:38:17.020 | You go from this like quirky little startup to, we, we, one of our big clients over the

00:38:22.100 | last few years, we did so much work with them.

00:38:25.140 | They had their IPO and everything changed.

00:38:27.980 | It was like they took everything in house, everything had to be safer.

00:38:32.500 | And I get it.

00:38:33.500 | They've got, they've got new goals, they've got new objectives to...

00:38:37.620 | New limitations as well.

00:38:38.620 | Yeah.

00:38:39.620 | When that comes, new limitations.

00:38:40.620 | But I think what you're doing there with kind of just evolving the little things and, and

00:38:46.060 | especially on the web, testing them.

00:38:48.180 | That's the tricky thing, isn't it?

00:38:50.100 | Is like keep making, you know, maturing like that and being very careful in a way, but

00:38:57.420 | also keeping that heart and that sort of core of who you are and, and at least communicating

00:39:02.220 | some personality.

00:39:03.220 | Because if you're not careful, you can lose some of that personality, can't you?

00:39:07.300 | You're getting that big and, you know, things are getting really standardized.

00:39:10.620 | It's quite hard, I think, to keep that personalization.

00:39:13.420 | But then you see some companies really leaning into it.

00:39:17.020 | And like you'd think of Salesforce and Einstein and all the little characters they've got,

00:39:21.740 | they just, they lean in and people obviously love it and it's obviously very successful

00:39:26.980 | for them.

00:39:27.980 | So yeah, it's, I suppose it's always a, it's always decisions to be made and you kind of

00:39:33.580 | start a brand new launch.

00:39:35.420 | But at every, every year, every couple of months, there's avenues you can go down there

00:39:40.260 | where you can go safer or you can go down the adventurous route.

00:39:43.060 | So yeah, brands are always going to keep moving and evolving.

00:39:46.300 | But Rubrik is fascinating.

00:39:48.080 | So like Odin Kilmer, so he's like the VP of design of product, I, I still, you know,

00:39:53.560 | keep in touch with him.

00:39:54.560 | And, you know, when I joined Rubrik, one of their decisions was, hey, like, from a branding

00:39:59.780 | point of view, we want our product to stand out.

00:40:02.500 | And so when you look at it like a server rack, you see black, black, black, black, black,

00:40:06.420 | and you see white, like white as Rubrik, right?

00:40:09.020 | Actually, actually, funny enough, Fortinet's product is also white, our FortiGates, which

00:40:12.780 | is fantastic.

00:40:13.780 | So, but what they realized was, you know, people are sitting in front of these screens,

00:40:17.980 | like they'd like the terminals every day.

00:40:21.260 | And when you walk by the terminal, you don't know what product it is, because they all

00:40:25.740 | look the same, right, that the UI interface.

00:40:28.420 | And so Odin came in, and he was like, when someone walks by this terminal, I want that

00:40:34.900 | software experience to be distinctly Rubrik.

00:40:39.260 | And I remember in the very beginning, like he, he pulled me into the process, which was

00:40:42.820 | really fun.

00:40:43.820 | I was like, oh, I felt like honored, right.

00:40:46.380 | And yeah, we went through a mood board exercise and everything and putting on color.

00:40:52.380 | And his takeaway was, they made a decision that they wanted the product experience to

00:40:57.580 | feel distinctly consumer, which is a huge departure from what most people see.

00:41:05.260 | So that was really, really cool.

00:41:06.620 | And so now like, it changed their color palette, the uses of transparency versus not, and their

00:41:12.660 | their icon choices, and, and then also taking accessibility into consideration.

00:41:18.940 | And you're looking at these screens for eight, 10 hours a day.

00:41:22.220 | So you can't have colors are too bright, because it burns the brain.

00:41:26.940 | So I think that's a good example.

00:41:27.940 | Like you're taking your your brand, and you're executing it all the way down to product where

00:41:32.580 | sometimes like the brand feels like a marketing thing.

00:41:36.540 | And it can be disjointed from product, and it was really cool seeing them do that.

00:41:40.780 | I would actually love to see that in my current company.

00:41:43.780 | And I think most companies in my, my B2B companies would probably agree with that, right?

00:41:49.100 | Like, you see all this cool stuff in marketing, how do we make the brand experience similar?

00:41:53.140 | Exactly.

00:41:54.140 | That's the ideal of the aim, isn't it, is that kind of coherency, really, from every

00:41:58.580 | touch point, like you said, you know, whether it be customer service to kind of the actual

00:42:02.340 | product itself, you know, the online presence is socially tone voice, and that's the aim,

00:42:07.220 | isn't it?

00:42:08.220 | You know, this, like you say, it's always changing, there's no such thing as perfect.

00:42:11.460 | So I think it's just all aiming for that, really, is the only way forward, otherwise

00:42:15.780 | it's terrifying, and petrified, you can't, you know, perfection doesn't exist.

00:42:21.860 | So do you have any advice for someone who is maybe they're already a, they're a digital

00:42:28.220 | design or, or, or anything in the field, what would they need to think about to break into

00:42:35.220 | this industry more, or maybe catapult, catapult, you know, themselves, like, is there any advice

00:42:41.060 | you would give to somebody?

00:42:43.820 | I think, from from a, from a designer's point of view, if you're a young designer, a student

00:42:48.840 | or graduate, or somebody who's just looking to change their career completely, I think,

00:42:54.220 | I think, similar to what you did, I think share your work, I think the more you put

00:42:57.900 | out there, the more comes back, because if you're silent, then there's nothing for people

00:43:03.260 | to respond to.

00:43:04.260 | So I think put your work out there, even if at the beginning, like, you're not thinking

00:43:08.900 | this is not strong enough.

00:43:09.900 | And I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome in the creative industry, anyway, and people

00:43:13.300 | think this isn't good enough.

00:43:14.300 | And you're almost comparing, there's a quote from Gavin Stranger's book, isn't it?

00:43:18.820 | It's like, don't compare your behind the scenes of other people's showreels.

00:43:22.420 | And I always, I always kind of think about that a little bit, like, you see these perfectly

00:43:26.180 | curated kind of case studies and things, but, but share the process, share your work, and

00:43:31.980 | try and get out and meet fellow creatives at in-person events, or, and don't be afraid

00:43:37.580 | to reach out to people as well, because when people email us, asking for advice, we always,

00:43:43.340 | I think it is difficult to get back to lots of students and lots of people, we always

00:43:48.220 | try and get back with at least some help or maybe meet them for a coffee and try and,

00:43:52.980 | and try and offer, offer some feedback.

00:43:54.900 | Yeah.

00:43:55.900 | And I think from something I've kind of, we've learned in the years as well is maybe if you

00:44:00.540 | are currently working as a designer, or, you know, content strategist, or copywriter, what

00:44:05.700 | have you.

00:44:06.700 | And I think sometimes you can be drawn to these sort of creative events, and you meet

00:44:10.340 | fellow creatives, which is really lovely and really important.

00:44:13.100 | But I think sort of we've learned almost by accident really over the years is, if you're

00:44:17.260 | maybe interested in one sort of industry, or one cause, or what have you, you, I think

00:44:23.460 | there's something to be said for immersing yourself in that and actually learning about

00:44:26.860 | that and maybe offering some help in that area.

00:44:29.500 | So for me, that was Creative Mornings, because I love seeing creatives kind of have room

00:44:34.740 | to play and create things and share that experience.

00:44:37.900 | But maybe if it was, you know, for example, we've done work with sort of housing associations

00:44:42.380 | where, you know, it's a really quite gratifying work, because you're kind of helping build

00:44:47.780 | community and provide solutions for people.

00:44:50.900 | And, you know, just thinking about it from an industry perspective, rather than thinking,

00:44:55.820 | right, I want to do the copywriting, it's like, what do you want to write about?

00:44:58.700 | And also, how can you make yourself useful?

00:45:00.820 | Because I think those then maybe case studies that are really quite powerful, and you get

00:45:04.860 | more work perhaps in that area as well.

00:45:07.100 | I do think, yeah, if you if you put out tech work, there's probably going to be tech companies

00:45:11.420 | that get in touch with you.

00:45:12.420 | If you put out food and drink brands, it's going to so so even if like, I think in the

00:45:17.460 | beginning, what a lot of people do is they build fictional brands to build a portfolio.

00:45:22.580 | So it's put out what you want to come back.

00:45:24.980 | I always remember when I was when I was young, when I was, I think I was a student, I did

00:45:30.740 | a drawing of Bob Dylan with like a super wavy curly hair, kind of inspired by the Milton

00:45:35.780 | Glazer kind of style a little bit.

00:45:37.260 | And I posted it.

00:45:38.260 | And I think I had about four inquiries from like, corporate companies asking me to draw

00:45:43.260 | their their C suite in that style, I've got doing a children's book illustrating a children's

00:45:49.980 | book in that style.

00:45:50.980 | And it's just it's great, like it was just like a very quick doodle of Bob Dylan I put

00:45:56.340 | on Instagram, I think it was.

00:45:58.020 | And yes, so just surprising what comes back when he puts it out there.

00:46:00.940 | It's a really good example, actually, because I think as well, like thinking about different

00:46:04.460 | industry, but also think about style.

00:46:05.460 | So maybe if you do want to work in a certain style, or write a certain, you know, put it

00:46:09.620 | out there.

00:46:10.620 | It comes back.

00:46:11.620 | And yeah, I think that that's one thing I think we was trying to do, like, you know,

00:46:16.340 | working with Rubrik and other tech companies, I think sometimes you can go in thinking this

00:46:20.540 | is what they want the prescribes, sort of luck and feel of a tech company.

00:46:24.500 | But I think what can be so gratifying for everybody involved is to actually do something

00:46:29.660 | completely different, especially if it's a campaign, so you've got a bit of artistic

00:46:33.300 | freedom.

00:46:34.300 | And, and just, you know, bring something that you think would not fit in the tech space

00:46:38.660 | can just make those those campaigns.

00:46:41.300 | If you do a Google search for cybersecurity, and go to Google Images, the things that will

00:46:46.380 | come up will be very dark images with flashing long exposure blue lights, like it'll be cables,

00:46:52.420 | they'll be kind of, it'll probably be like people in hoodies looking like hats and things

00:46:58.740 | like that.

00:46:59.740 | Whereas I think our approach to Rubrik has been some of the Rubrik projects we've done

00:47:04.340 | have just been crazy.

00:47:05.340 | Really, I think we worked on you with the review on the forward brand, where we kind

00:47:09.580 | of had that like, kind of arty kind of like, rig of like buildings in Chicago.

00:47:15.980 | But we've recently just done a campaign with Rubrik, which they came to us, and it's illustrations

00:47:22.280 | all around characters that are kind of loosely based on Lord of the Rings characters.

00:47:26.980 | And they're like drawn in this really kind of like graphically kind of style.

00:47:30.740 | And it's so far removed from what you'd expect from cybersecurity.

00:47:34.620 | So I think I think we've actually, when we first had John and Jane about six months in,

00:47:40.040 | we had we had a couple of staff at the time, and we sat down and we did a workshop of us

00:47:44.340 | for ourselves.

00:47:45.340 | And what came out of it was, our mission was to do something different.

00:47:48.780 | So when we get a project, look around what what the industry is currently doing, and

00:47:54.180 | what's expected in that industry, and try and take a different direction, which I think

00:47:59.740 | that's when a company gets out of their comfort zone.

00:48:01.980 | That's when you get out of your comfort zone, and you can experiment and try new things.

00:48:05.220 | And I think that's when the most interesting things happen as well, from a creative point

00:48:09.740 | of view.

00:48:10.740 | Yeah, I agree with all of that.

00:48:11.740 | You know, I think, to add on top of that great advice, I think my takeaway is as a creative,

00:48:16.940 | you know, if you discover an industry or an area that you're passionate about, allow yourself

00:48:23.620 | to pour into it, and then showcase that work, right, and hopefully that work is showcased

00:48:28.340 | in a way that shows kind of the diversity of skill sets, because obviously, that's what's

00:48:31.660 | going to get the attention first.

00:48:33.740 | I think when it comes to the interview process, or actually even utilizing social, that part

00:48:39.340 | that I don't think it's talked about enough, which is like, when I'm making a hire for

00:48:42.620 | design creatives, I like how Zoom just did a thumbs up there.

00:48:45.380 | I don't know who in product chose to do that.

00:48:49.500 | So the process of how you align or arrive at the end, it becomes really, really important,

00:48:55.780 | right?

00:48:56.780 | Because there's a difference between someone who just gets instruction, and just output

00:49:00.740 | something, and the output can be fantastic, or misses the mark, but if they understand

00:49:04.620 | your process on how you receive a instruction, and then you turn that into something, like

00:49:13.580 | the questions that you're asking, the things you're deliberating over, as you approach

00:49:17.840 | to the final design, that is really, really important.

00:49:21.540 | It's a difference between an end result that is a very solid and bold and color, or something

00:49:27.820 | that looks really flashy and trendy, or something very conservative, like understanding how

00:49:32.780 | you make decisions to arrive there, and your interview process helps them understand if

00:49:37.540 | you're going to join the company, you're going to provide a little more perspective before

00:49:42.220 | the end result, right?

00:49:43.220 | I think that's something that in a world of social, I wish people would do more of that,

00:49:48.260 | you know, like, here's the behind the scenes on how I approached this project or problem,

00:49:52.540 | or here's where we started, and it's something very, very different, and here's why, right?

00:49:58.400 | Or even like, breaking down like, hey, if it's an exercise in type font, even helping

00:50:04.460 | people understanding the thickness versus the thinness of a font, or how smooth or how

00:50:11.120 | hard it is, and how that ties into a decision on brand, helping people understand that is

00:50:16.740 | really, really important.

00:50:17.740 | And I think with things like LinkedIn, where there's like, there's like video mediums to

00:50:21.700 | do that.

00:50:22.700 | And again, if you're trying to get yourself out there, don't limit yourself to just the

00:50:26.480 | work you produced.

00:50:28.020 | I think the method is really, really important.

00:50:31.140 | Yeah.

00:50:32.140 | And sometimes it is sometimes just getting out there as well.

00:50:36.100 | And if you're, if you're looking at your own brand, for example, and you look at some of

00:50:39.860 | the biggest companies in the world, some of the biggest social media companies, like Twitter,

00:50:43.780 | if you look, even Apple, if you look back at their original logo, it's like, unrecognizable

00:50:50.140 | to where they, because like we said, brands have to evolve.

00:50:53.900 | And yeah, I think, I think putting yourself out there is, it does take a bit of bravery

00:50:59.580 | and a bit of vulnerability as well, but I think it's, I think it's worth it.

00:51:04.660 | Cool.

00:51:05.660 | Sarah, Gareth, it was great having you on.

00:51:07.660 | It was really enjoyable conversation, but hoping you can come back again, you know,

00:51:10.440 | we need to talk about your, that your, your passion on t-shirts for soccer, football, but

00:51:14.860 | actually I have one last fun question I was asking you, I intentionally didn't prepare

00:51:23.380 | you for this.

00:51:24.380 | Cause I'm just kind of curious.

00:51:26.620 | So you're, you mentioned earlier, you're a small company, but you're working with your

00:51:30.220 | spouse or partner.

00:51:32.340 | What is that like?

00:51:33.340 | Cause like, I like when I have a hard day at work, I try not to take that home with

00:51:37.060 | me, but you guys are living it together.

00:51:39.700 | Right?

00:51:40.700 | Like, so what does that look like?

00:51:42.580 | I think, I think we literally share your amusement about it because we never started this seven

00:51:50.260 | years ago thinking, oh yeah, we'll be doing this for a good 10 years now.

00:51:53.700 | Well, let's do it as long as we can do it and then like chill out and not do that and

00:51:58.220 | go and get a job somewhere else because obviously those boundaries are really, really important.

00:52:02.100 | So I'd say that's obviously where it's tricky because obviously a lot of us bring our work

00:52:07.420 | home at night, but obviously cause we're both across all the work, it's really easy to just

00:52:11.620 | talk about work all the time.

00:52:13.540 | But I think, you know, on the other hand, you know, on the plus side that there is that

00:52:18.380 | kind of working relationship that has been about, you know, nearly a decade.

00:52:23.700 | So it's when we do present and when projects do go really well and, you know, that can

00:52:29.420 | be really, really sort of lovely thing to share actually.

00:52:33.460 | Yeah.

00:52:34.460 | It's like, I think, I think just like in work when you have a big win, it's a big win as

00:52:39.100 | well.

00:52:40.100 | Yeah.

00:52:41.100 | I do think there is, there has to be a line.

00:52:42.100 | We, we, we often refer to ourselves in third person and it's like, we call it Gareth and

00:52:45.860 | Sarah and John and Jane, but I think we have to like, make sure we kind of get that, that

00:52:54.380 | separation there.

00:52:55.380 | And, and I think this, there's certainly things that help, like we've got a dog and we get,

00:53:00.700 | we take the dog for a big walk every single day and just, just making sure you do the

00:53:05.460 | basic things as well, like go, go and do some exercise and do yoga and things like that.

00:53:10.340 | Yeah.

00:53:11.340 | I think like with colleagues it's really, really key, isn't it, that you do have maybe

00:53:14.260 | some honest conversations sometimes, but I think perhaps working in this scenario, I

00:53:18.020 | think you have to do that by times a hundred, you have to be honest and you have to like,

00:53:22.860 | you know, because it's, it is otherwise can be quite intense.

00:53:26.060 | There's no, no point and you can't just let things build up because, you know, there's

00:53:30.220 | work to do.

00:53:32.220 | You've got to kind of keep on top of that and, and yeah, I think, yeah, it is a tricky,

00:53:38.820 | tricky one.

00:53:39.820 | And I think a lot of people like friends and family, they're all kind of like, how are

00:53:43.900 | you doing?

00:53:44.900 | But I don't know.

00:53:45.900 | It is a nature as well, I think, cause like my daughter, like with Create the Mornings,

00:53:51.380 | you know, we work together there, there'll be family members coming in to help and actually

00:53:55.900 | we really enjoy that.

00:53:56.900 | I know they say never work with your family or your friends even, but actually in our

00:54:01.700 | experience, that's always been really, really nice, isn't it?

00:54:04.100 | So far.

00:54:05.100 | So far.

00:54:06.100 | Yeah.

00:54:07.100 | Brothers come in and children and you know, everyone has something to offer, don't they?

00:54:10.660 | And I think those people that are closest to you, you know, you experience, I'm sure like

00:54:14.680 | when you share your work things and your problems, they've got that unique take on it cause they

00:54:19.260 | know you so well.

00:54:20.260 | So yeah, they can be helpful.

00:54:21.260 | Do you think you can do it too?

00:54:24.260 | Oh man, it's, it's tough.

00:54:27.540 | I probably could.

00:54:29.160 | My wife is pretty fantastic and I think knowing when to relinquish a control or a decision

00:54:38.500 | and I think being able to have humility and swallow pride where it's needed and pick and

00:54:45.720 | choose when you need to really argue for your point of view versus knowing when to let something

00:54:50.800 | go is probably, would probably be the hardest part, especially if you're, if you're each

00:54:55.880 | individually really strong in your points of view.

00:55:00.680 | Someone has a give and take.

00:55:01.680 | But I think the part about walking the dog, like having a break point and then like work

00:55:07.140 | is now over.

00:55:08.620 | Now we're going to, no longer John and Jane, we're Susan and Gareth, right?

00:55:12.320 | I tell you, actually one straight line we do have that's really clear and has always

00:55:16.480 | been the case is when it goes to creative and visuals, you have final say and when it

00:55:22.400 | comes to maybe a strapline or the messaging, I have final say, so they're in a line in

00:55:27.600 | the middle.

00:55:28.600 | So it's like, we can obviously feed into it, both of us, but the decision, if we are having

00:55:35.160 | an argument is yours or mine in most places.

00:55:38.240 | Yeah.

00:55:39.240 | I think it's good.

00:55:40.240 | You need to agree on how the tiebreaker is going to happen, right?

00:55:44.160 | Yeah.

00:55:45.160 | I think it'd be way more difficult if we were both designers.

00:55:48.420 | I think when I was in university, I thought one day I'll start my own business with one

00:55:51.920 | of my designer friends.

00:55:53.340 | I think that would be hell.

00:55:54.960 | I just choose designers with strong opinions, kind of trying to figure something out.

00:55:59.440 | At least Sarah and I, our skill sets complement one another other than the same skillset going

00:56:06.720 | head to head.

00:56:08.400 | So there's it is.

00:56:09.400 | So whoever's listening, you guys need some help for branding or having a digital agency.

00:56:13.320 | Like I totally recommend John and Jane.

00:56:14.960 | How can they find you guys?

00:56:16.220 | Your website or what have you?

00:56:18.640 | Yeah, the best place to find us would be johnandjane.agency.

00:56:22.880 | And we're probably most active on Instagram and LinkedIn, the two kind of platforms that

00:56:27.720 | we've...

00:56:28.720 | I think you've got to pick your battles when you're small.

00:56:30.720 | So I think they're the two that we've got on our social platforms.

00:56:35.200 | And Instagram, is it also just John and Jane?

00:56:37.560 | Or...

00:56:38.560 | It's actually...

00:56:39.560 | Because our logo kind of looks like a name, we couldn't get John and Jane.

00:56:42.560 | So for them, I think it is John and number eight, Jane.

00:56:46.360 | John and Jane.

00:56:47.360 | Cool.

00:56:48.360 | Well, thanks, guys, for being on the episode and hopefully we'll be talking again soon.

00:56:51.480 | Thanks so much for having us, Tim.

00:56:53.240 | Thanks so much, Tim.

00:56:54.240 | Cheers.

00:56:54.480 | See you.

00:56:54.980 | Bye.

00:56:55.480 | (upbeat music)

00:56:58.060 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

How to build a brand from the ground up through Research, Strategy, Identity and Design

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