- You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs, where we give you practical insights into jobs and careers. Today, we're joined by Sarah Burley and Gareth Strange. How are you guys doing? - Good, thanks, Tim. - Very well. - All right, so I worked with you at a previous company in everything around a topic of brand.

Can you tell me a little bit about what you're doing today? - Well, today is bank holiday in the UK, and so we're in true kind of working-for-yourself style, trying to catch up and hit some deadlines today, and we're going away with work next week, actually, so we're sort of working towards that, so it's a lot of fun.

- So you and I, we got introduced to each other at a previous company, where you're an agency, and you're dealing with everything brand. Can you tell us a little bit about John and Jane and what your roles are? - Yeah, sure, so John and Jane is a tiny design and branding studio in Wales.

We started it seven and a half years ago now, so the name John and Jane is basically us two. It's our middle names, but it was also a concept around kind of wanting to put the work first and let the names take a backseat, kind of like slightly linked to John and Jane Doe, but yeah, we set up seven and a half years ago to do branding, design, strategy, and Sarah's skillset of being very good with discovery and very good with the strategy side of things, and I take care more of the visual side, so our skillsets complement each other really well.

So over the last seven and a half years, we've been working with lots of different types of clients, from tiny little businesses to big tech companies, and it's been fun so far. So I'm kind of curious, so just for historical speaking for everyone, so it's been many years since we've worked together.

Early this calendar, actually last calendar year, I went through a period of unemployment, and so I was just trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and from that time of self-discovery, this podcast idea was born, and I'm kind of curious, before I even got it off the ground, what is it that you saw that made you want to get involved?

Because I can tell you guys, I was really struggling with that final 10% of getting this thing off the ground, and your involvement was so impactful that I hit that reset button on that intended launch date. So can you just tell me a little bit about why you decided to work with me, and what did you see that you thought you could provide some help and value?

Well, obviously, like you said, we worked together at your previous agency, and we collaborated on quite cool brand new projects there, and always enjoyed working with you, and the collaboration was always good. So obviously, we've linked on LinkedIn, and I think it comes back to that thing of being almost open with the process a little bit, which I think designers are well-known for kind of keeping everything buried down, but when you are open to the community, and you share your struggles, and it's not just all a big show reel, you kind of open up the conversation for other people to come in.

And I think as a designer sometimes, for me, when something like with John and Jane, as soon as John and Jane had a logo, it kind of felt real then. So when you kind of shared a video, I think it was a video or a post, talking about your process, you've got this idea for the podcast, you've got the set of colors that you want to work with, but you felt the typography wasn't quite right.

And straightaway, I could see how we could potentially help you. And the idea of collaborating again, was obviously very appealing. So I reached out, and yeah, the rest is history. Yeah, I think when we chatted about it internally, as we sort of saw your story progress, really. And I think like Gareth said, he obviously straightaway had ideas visually about how we could potentially help you provide some sort of assets, because that's obviously what you were sort of talking about and looking for.

And then also, we just had a lot of time for what you were doing, we loved the fact that you were, like Gareth said, being very open and transparent. And I think, as you mentioned multiple times on your podcast, job market can be pretty scary and quite isolating, quite cold.

And I think, you know, over the years, we've sort of always been really interested in that community side of sharing that kind of genuine experience, because let's be honest, there's a lot of kind of gloss and getting underneath that, I think it's so helpful for other people and really rewarding and helpful for ourselves, let's be honest, like, you know, sharing that genuine experience.

So I think from a copy and messaging perspective, as well, it was like, not not easy, but we were kind of really feeling it. So we had some ideas. And we thought, well, you know, maybe, maybe we can collaborate and help in some way. Yeah. So what you're referring to was, you know, during that time, I'd released a video, talking about what I'm struggling with.

And there was a video specifically where I had reached out to the community and be like, hey, look, if you guys need any help during this period, where we're all searching for jobs, like hit me up as a sounding board. And that turned into some insights I discovered that time where people were just struggling on reinventing themselves or seeing if their, their skills can transition to other fields because they were not getting anything out there and on job market.

And so, yeah, I think I think you're right, that the authenticity to tone and how that is a baseline for brand and building credibility is really important. And I'm kind of curious for in your guys' point of view, like, what makes a good brand and we can talk to how that applied to the work we did together.

But in general, like, what are you what are you typically looking for? You know, what is that process where you are able to evaluate maybe someone's brand presence or just whatever those elements are? And then what steps do you take to kind of start putting some, maybe a process or workflow around kind of getting that to a better place?

Yeah. Brand is a funny one, really, I think if you asked 100 people what branding is, you'd probably get dozens of different answers. And it's a quote that we love, and we refer to when we're doing workshops all the time, and we're branding, there's only one thing that matters, and that's everything.

And it's, and it's, it's kind of true, it's like a brand can go and spend a fortune building, building an amazing visual brand, an amazing service, and that can all be torn down with like one bad customer service, potentially, and that could change the whole brand in someone in that one person's mind immediately.

So I think when we're working with brands, and we're trying to discover, like brands that we want to work with, brands that we want to help, it comes down to, I think a lot of the time is purpose. What are they trying to do? Is there a real goal at the heart of it?

Is there a concept that we can kind of lean to? Is there a story we can, we can, we can cling on to? Yeah. And I think that's the kind of going towards the sort of USP, you know, and that's obviously part of the discovery process, is always trying to figure that out, whether it's one person or, you know, a large organisational business.

And I think that's a really key thing. But I think that that saying we like, it kind of does work across the board, because even speaking, like in terms of design, and like the visual offering, every single little thing matters. And the type of choice, you know, affects everything, the colour affects everything, feeling, you know, represents a million things.

And I think the same could be said in terms of discovery, and that process that you mentioned, because, you know, when that's what we can obviously do every day, and looking at a person or a group or a large organisation, we feel like, you know, our jobs is to filling that down into that kind of real essence of what they're, not only what their purpose is, but I think also what they do, and who they are, because we, you know, we have that second snapshot.

And that's what branding helps us do, is to communicate in just a couple of seconds what you're all about. So we see that as our job, really, and it is literally starting really, really wide, and just to sink down into that. And I think that's the going back to the that video you put out, I think that one of the reasons was a few reasons we wanted to kind of reach out and help where we possibly could, because obviously, the past collaboration, but also, it was that sense of community was that sense that you you find yourself in that spot, where you were looking to then make connections and help others as well.

And it kind of reminds me of a remind both of us a little bit of Creative Mornings, that it's a global event, but Sarah actually started the Cardiff chapter about 10 years ago. And it was all about just bringing people together and idea sharing and giving, giving back to the community, really, and yeah, so community has always been an important thing for us.

Yeah. And yeah, quite often, that will come into the brand. And as you know, you know, that's a huge thing now, even, you know, if you're selling a product or clothes or anything, or online platforms, it's, it's, it's, that community and building community has gotten more and more important, and more and more prevalent, hasn't it, that speak, and storytelling, all those sorts of things.

And I think they've always been there, but I just think that we're getting more and more sort of explicit terms for things, because the branding world is maturing, almost, you know, service, and these roles that we all have, which, to be honest, for a while, nobody really knew who, you know, what these specialisms were called, but of course, they're kind of starting to come clear now.

And those processes are starting to become a bit more recognisable, and, you know, and standardised, really. And people aren't so surprised anymore, if you do speak about a discovery session, or, you know, that part of the branding process, rather than just having a logo, for example, people are a lot more enfei with that process, and understand that there's a bit more to it than that.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, you're, you're coming about distilling things down to a core, that's easily understandable is really important, because that's where I struggled in the beginning. So, like, I had this idea in my head of what I want this thing to be, but I couldn't put words to it, right.

And I remember in our first discovery session, you guys are real quick, you guys asked so many good questions, ranging from my vision, my and my purpose, my mission, and what I'm trying to do with this, what kind of takeaways do you want my audience to be getting from these videos, both from an emotional point of view, as well as professional.

And you took all that, and you distilled it down to a single problem or mission statement that characterized exactly what was going on between my ears. And that was so helpful. You know, I think a lot of companies, they, actually, the larger the company, the more personalities you have there, and a lot of influence on to what messaging is, the problem is then that you have so many perspectives, it's hard to boil it down to one single statement that can then be the foundation to build a brand.

And it was cool to see that happen firsthand, and you totally got it. And I posted that on LinkedIn, because I was so excited about it, and it got a lot of reaction, you know, and people are like, "Oh, that's so cool." And like, "No, I totally get it." And the other way I've operationalized that is when I bring in additional guests, I usually I have like a letter that's sent out, and that's made its way into the letter, because it's articulating what I'm thinking in my vision and getting alignment.

And I'm kind of curious, you guys, because there's setting the message or messaging, and then there's taking that and then applying, let's say, visual or stylings to it through like a, like you guys went through like a mood board exercise. And up to that point, all I knew was that the, I guess the keywords that are important to me was like authenticity, professionalism, and then like relatability and transparency/genuine, right?

And the only work I'd done after that point was thinking through colors. And so the color I had kind of doubled down on was like blue, right? If anyone in the B2B is wondering like, why everyone uses blue, like, why did Dell use blue? Why did IBM use blue?

And like, like LinkedIn uses blue? It's because blue represents confidence, right? And credibility. And that's why those companies use it. And the, so I decided I wanted blue, although I was testing between blue and purple, because I didn't know. And the other color I wanted was orange, only because if you look at the color wheel, they're opposite ends of the spectrum.

So the contrast really well. And as a web marketer, I know that when it comes to like user engagement on websites, like, like a orange accent over blue tests really, really well, right? A lot of click through. But that's literally it. I struggled with the icon, a logo. It looks very cartoony in the beginning because I was looking at all the other podcasts out there.

They look really fun and whatnot. So that's, I tried to emulate that, but just nothing was hitting the mark. So can you break down your process? Like when you saw that, what was your reaction? Was it positive or negative? And what kind of led you down the path of where you end up leading the design direction?

When we, the question is, when we first saw like what you had put together? Yeah. Like, what was your, like, was it like an adverse reaction or we're like, okay, now we knew, we know where we need to take this thing. Well, I think it's just, I think it's potential.

I think we saw potential, I think in what you told us and what you were actually doing, it was so much potential to the project. But I think a lot of the basics were there. I think the color palette is, it was really strong and I think just kind of like, just tinkering with that a little bit and, and just all those things, all those things we learned, authentic, friendly, I think your personality has to come across that you are the personality of the podcast.

And it's obvious that you've had experience within and around branding as you have over the years. So I think you bring that information to this process as well, which is really helpful. It means actually you are 10 steps ahead of perhaps where somebody who hasn't had that experience is.

So that's always helpful. Yeah. You might feel like maybe the end product needs some, you know, a bit of bit more work, but I mean that you're still 10 steps ahead. So I think for us, any input like that, it's always helpful. But I think your, your like ideas around color theory as well, were like well informed, is that you've got blue, which is a very trusted, very corporate color.

You are talking about corporate jobs a lot of the time, but then you've got that orange, which is a much like in terms of color theory, it's a happy, positive, creative color. And you're bringing all that to, to this as well. So, and again, like you said, they are opposite ends of the spectrum.

They contrast really well. And I just think we're doing like, like you've done a lot of digital marketing and web stuff and just A/B testing. We've done a lot of that over the years as well. And it's so interesting. You put something up blue and then you put something up orange and it just outperforms.

And it's just, it's, I guess it just must be something to do with that color that just attracts people a little bit more. But then when you've got both of them, you can kind of dial up and dial down and like you can use both colors. So it's, yeah, I think when we, when we saw it, it was like, it all made a lot of sense.

But we just thought with the right typography, tweaking of the colors and identity that, I think you had a strong idea for the identity as well, which we kind of just helped nurture a little bit. You also have some great photographs, which is massively helpful, you know, that they felt, they felt like you, they felt like talking to you as it were, and your personality came through.

And that's a big part of it. I think we, we asked you to go and take these photographs and we just said, have fun with it, get your personality across and you didn't, you didn't hold back. It's like, it's quite a difficult thing to do, isn't it? But you like, obviously starting off this, it's not like a big professional photo shoot or anything, but the photos you've got, I think you've, I was looking at the podcast on Apple podcast the other day and it just makes me so happy just seeing the cover and all the episodes there.

I think you've done a great job. That was such a painful exercise because I am, I am not photogenic at all. So it, it took me a long time to get to something where I was like, oh, this is probably worth sending to them. And I, going through all, all my blinks, you know, and like the weird, awkward, like, it's like, it's like talented and nice.

It's like Ricky Bobby has like his hands, I was like, I don't know what to do with my hands. It's pretty much that, but like in picture form. Yeah. So can you walk us through, maybe like the practical steps, you know, you mentioned things like having a strong perspective on your approach to typography or colors or how you turn that into a digital expression or whatever that looks like, right?

What, what do you go with, like, what's your thinking process as you're choosing these? Like, like maybe walk us through how you think about fonts, you know, or colors or any of those elements that build up to your ultimate, you know, is your strategy or visuals? Well, I think like, especially, you know, using yourself as an example, I think that discovery and that sort of conversation and figuring out kind of what your manifesto is.

I think that that's where, well, that's the really sort of magical part of branding that we really enjoy working on together, isn't it? Because I think we collate all that information together, you know, but then there, there is that crossover point where maybe it's all up on the wall or the words, and then of course, it's translating that, as you say, into these sort of deliverables.

But, you know, in your, your case, you know, the type is kind of blurry, there's nothing's too sharp, nothing's too shiny, which is a direct sort of reference and translation to our messaging, which is, you know, life's not a straight line, you know, job, your job kind of career can be a mess, and that's okay, you know, humans are messy.

And so, you know, it's just bringing those sort of conceptual parts to it as well. But, and that's kind of where I feel like then, of course, you formalise the type choices, the colour choices, and translate that into the design style. Yeah, obviously, when it comes to typography and colours, it's all very subjective design.

But I think that's one thing that, why I love working with Sarah so much, she's so good at like drawing all that information out in a way that makes sense. And just being part of those workshops, whether it's like a workshop with yourself, which is obviously a very small business, or where we have to go and do multiple workshops across multiple departments across multiple cities.

It's the process. And I think that's, we've got that process that we know and trust. When Sarah gives me that information, it is about then kind of making the right choices, what typeface is going to reflect your personality or the brand's personality in its best possible way. And like Sarah said, we've got like a court wall here, and when we're working, we might put stuff up.

But what I tend to do is I sometimes like save logos or save typefaces to my screensaver on my phone. I'll just look at it for the next couple of days, just let it like sink in. Living with it. Yeah, just living with it. And then, and then you go, oh, maybe that's not quite right, and you move on.

And until you make a final decision, and just like we presented your brand, we always present just one concept, because we've gone through all these motions, like trying dozens of typefaces out, trying to find that right typeface that represents the brand, the way that we feel works best. So when we present, we present confidently just that one concept, because if you present like three concepts, sometimes it can like confuse the client, they can say, oh, we like one, two, and maybe a little bit of three, and then you start having like a down kind of brand.

So I think it's our process to like, sit with it, live with it, and then just confidently present what we believe is the best solution for that brand. I didn't know that. And that's, that's fascinating. When I was on the design that the agency side of the world, like earlier in my career, I did what you just suggested at the end, which is like, let's provide something that's a design concept that's like out of the world, kind of crazy borderline can't execute one super conservative, and something conservative, conservative, or maybe medium that they would most likely land on, and you hope that they pick elements of the others and kind of bring it to the middle.

But you're talking about going in, like guns blazing with double downing on one single concept, which I think is really, really brave. You know, can you share some examples of maybe like a maybe a, a client where like that worked really, really well, and just took off? Or maybe some examples were like, that did not fly?

And what did that look like? The good thing is, it's a process that is that we've developed, I think I worked with past agencies where the three or four concepts, which was the way, and what we always found as an internal team would be like, we like that concept, we hope they go with that concept, that's the best concept.

And maybe they go with another concept, or they would go with, and sometimes like a mashup of two concepts or three concepts. So I think we it was something I tried years ago, when I was just doing a little bit of freelancing on the side of my, my nine to five job.

And it went so well, and it just made a lot of sense to me. So so we've been doing it since we started John and Jane and touch wood, I'd say I'd say probably like nine times out of 10, the client signs off that first approach. I don't think it's necessarily the easiest thing to do, because I think when we that's not to complain about it.

And I think that's, that's why we do it, but to have that one solo, and sort of executed, I think our job, then is to completely sell that and explain every sort of reason and rationale why it's like that. And to be honest, usually, well, that's, that's the job is to make that impressive enough and as sort of rational enough that actually people feel really good, people feel really seen.

And then actually, when you present the solution, they feel actually, yes, you've really like looked after, you know, because brand is people's babies, essentially, it's an expression of them. We appreciate that's a huge responsibility. So we just try and honor that really, and, and really kind of, and essentially, that is selling it isn't it back, you know, which we that that that process is quite magical, I think, if people are really impressed and excited, then that's our job done, then that's we do have one client who she's moved jobs about three times in the last five, five years or so.

And whenever she moves jobs, she brings us in to rebrand the company. And she refers to it, it's like having a baby, so she was like, I'm ready to have a baby. And it's like, that's actually when she's like, got into a new job or something like that. So it's obviously people do care.

And we care about it a hell of a lot as well. And just making sure we do a good job. But the good thing is, as well, that with that approach, it's it's not it can be seen as quite risky. But like, like I said, we've probably got half a dozen, a dozen concepts in the background, anyway.

So if they don't like that one concept, which, which we would be confident that they would feel it was right, we can say, give us a couple of days, we've got a bunch of other concepts, and we can put something else together fairly quickly as well, because they are, they are there.

So we've got those those concepts. Yeah. I was actually wondering, Tim, about yourself. So obviously, you've been some agency side, you've been kind of lots of sides, actually watching the branding process and watching campaigns launch and web design, like, did it feel different having to creating a brand around yourself rather than sort of with other businesses?

It was very, very different, and very enjoyable process and very, very scary. When you guys are selling me the pitch, the visual one was really cool. Could you so your pitch included this, you did the vision statement, you showed exposition on color, you explored the concept of a black and white or grayscale photo approach, which I'd never previously considered.

You showed different elements of the background that goes, like right now, everyone sees there is a blue and the orange slides in. But like, it looks like now, now we landed, it was like, like, like a text, like a speech text bubble, whatever. Oops, I hit my microphone. But you gave me like multiple examples of what that would look like.

And there's ones where it was like a, like a fade or a blur. And there's the typefaces, like you're talking about, like, things are confident, yet there's a lot of things are unsettled. And you showed typefaces that kind of broke apart towards the end, I kind of think kind of faded.

And then, then you showed the logos on hats, a poster, you know, all these tangible things and made it feel very real. And that was the first time I was like, oh, like, this can actually be like a real thing, like seeing it out in the wild. You know, I haven't done the hat thing yet, it's on my list.

But that was really, really cool. And that really hit home for me. And it made me and now the baby, there's the brand, it feels like it's something that can actually happen. And that's what got me over that last hump, where I knew I was like, you know what, this is totally worth doing a reset.

It was totally worth a potential awkward conversation where I already had a designer and you're coming in essentially undoing all of it. But it was worth it. That's kind of like what I was processing at the time. Yeah. Yeah, it's not always easy. And that goes to show even just, you know, on your own doing your own podcast, there's always some politics to deal with.

I feel like that's a huge part of the discovery phase of a rebrand or a new brand as well. It's always emotional. It's always because even if it's a sort of established brand, and you're going to change it, that's really tricky because people love the old brand, or maybe love some parts of the old brand, it just doesn't feel right to change it.

So you're up against that, you know, so there's always a lot of politics or kind of, yeah, I think that the discovery phase can help with that though, because it can really help everyone to put their view forward and have some part in shaping it. And that helps people adopt it then, of course, and love it and think of it as their own.

So, you know, it's turning those challenges around, I think, and I appreciate that's tricky when, you know, you've maybe done design work, but we obviously have to often work with other designers and perhaps feed into that, maybe suggest changes as they do with us. I mean, it's not like, you know, you have to be able to take that kind of to a very less collaboration.

It's not personal. It's like, I think that's something that all designers need to learn is that it's like, because you do get quite attached to your work. And when someone has constructive feedback, it's not personal. And obviously, we all just want the best outcome for any project. So can we shift the conversation a little bit about just the industry or career path that is everything to do with brand, you know, like, can you just help me understand like your path and journey to here, right, because, you know, most of the designers I work with are your, you know, design creatives, UI, UX type.

The skill set for brand is a little different, because there's a lot of strategy around that. And I think I'm assuming a lot of that has to come with personal experience to be able to have a conversation on brand, because there's a lot of things that go beyond that, right?

Like, you're looking at personas, you're looking at your audience, there's so much more to it. So can you just help me understand like, your just your career path, like how did you what led you here? And like, what, when you decided to go to this branch, specifically of creative?

I think, I think, like, we just touched upon earlier, I think this industry is kind of grown up quite a lot in the last, I'd say, it's been 15 years, I've probably been working in that. Previous to that, after university, I ended up kind of working in logistics, just because that was the job I could get at the time, but actually, that I really am a strong believer in transferable skills.

And I think any job you have, you can glean, learn a lot if you have the kind of right mindset and take that on to many other roles in the future. And I think in terms of kind of studio management, and project planning, and things like that, you know, logistics is great grounding, so that's unknowingly really helped.

But, but yeah, I think in the last 15 years, you know, our industry has kind of developed and, like I said, you know, there's roles there and there's processes there that have kind of really started to take shape. And so I yeah. So yeah, your journey has been kind of like, you went into logistics, you had a Sarah started a sandwich shop when she was like 19.

And then she's like, kind of went into a digital agency, and you've ended up in design and branding. But mine was a lot more linear. Like, I think at about the age of about 12, I did a logo for my friend's mum. And I said I wanted to be a graphic designer.

I wasn't sure what a graphic designer was, but I just wanted to be a graphic designer. So I like drawing, I like being on a computer. So those two skills felt like they went together quite well. So I studied art and IT, and went off to university, studied graphic design and became a graphic designer, worked at a couple of studios, and ended up here.

But I think I think it was the thing that kind of when we first started working together was with Creative Mornings. I think I think as well, for me, it all started around content. So I did my degree, then I studied again, and I studied on I kind of refocused in on literature and writing.

I love that side of things. So and then I kind of started working in the design industry. And I think for me, it's been really interesting to see how that kind of content and strategy piece has become more of a part, an official part, and an accepted part of branding, you know, and that kind of bringing meaning and, you know, reason for things and design decisions.

Because I do think that's where that that power comes from with branding. And when you see really good branding, that's what it's all about. So yeah, watching that kind of develop has been really interesting. And I've worked in content and marketing, and again, I think I was I was watching one of your other podcasts where you're speaking to someone, it's like, is specialism better or generalism?

And I think, you know, these roles have been crossing over for years. And, and yeah, so my, my line hasn't been quite so straight, despite being around kind of design and web design and publishing for a really long time, but I think they do all feed into this process.

And I think I think that writing element, like you said, the manifesto, or the kind of the overarching, just it's a paragraph or a couple of paragraphs, but it distills that brand down. Whenever Sarah writes that for a branding presentation, it always like gets me excited. And I always insist that Sarah reads it out.

I do think it is so so powerful to set up. I think when when, like, a big logo gets released in the media, like one over here, a little while back was the Olympics in 2012, they put it in the newspaper, and it just got slated. Because I think when people don't understand the story behind it, they, the initial reaction is people don't like change, if like, Facebook changes its interface, nobody likes it.

But if through that presentation for the brand presentation we gave to you, and we always we always give to any brand that we've, we've been working with, once you kind of share that story, you share that message, and you share that kind of process thing where you've got to that logo, it's almost like letting people in on the joke, and then they get it.

And I think it just, it goes down so much better, and people just have a better understanding. Yeah, I don't see it, I do, I do, I think you're right, it's letting people in on that, for sure, and being almost completely transparent in our thinking, but I think as well as that for me, and it's just being practiced, and I, I still like any creative thing, I'm sure you think every time, you don't always start a project going, "Oh my god, I'm gonna nail this straight away." You know, you always think, "Oh, this is hard," you know, but that's obviously the challenge of it, but it's just practice, you know, constantly looking and trying to glean, and what I feel like it's not letting people in on the joke, it's reflecting back every, as much as what they've shared with you as possible, and then making something really beautiful and useful off the back of that, really, so that's, it's like a reflect, I see that's what my job is, to reflect back, really, and, and puts it into some sort of sense for people to...

It must be really interesting from your, from your end, kind of like, obviously, if you've got a brand, then you've got to then translate that for product, you've got to translate it for web, there's so many, like, once you've got that central hub of a brand, it's like so many areas for it to kind of, so many channels for it to go off on.

Yeah, I mean... How do you find that? You know, so it's, it might look like my current job, and actually, the previous three, I would say, it would be similar, where the brand has been set, meaning there is a palette, there is the, there's the brand guidelines, they have all been set.

And in all three instances, I feel like the way the web reflects that brand was very limited. So in, at Rubrik, for example, they had a really strong brand presence, the website just didn't do it justice. So in that instance, we were able to do a complete redesign. Not everyone has the has the luxury of doing a complete replatform.

My company after that at A10 Networks, that one, the brand felt a little more old school. And that's where I was like, we didn't have budget to do a complete replatform or redesign. And so the question was, what incremental changes can I make on a website to make it feel more relevant in a way that I feel like it should be that would engage audiences without it being a redesign or rehaul, right?

And so that's looking at hero banners, and how can I maybe change that or when I'm looking at I, the first thing I changed was the icon language. It's like, hard edges to round edges, you know, solid fill versus non, right? And, and the challenge with that one was not having the budget to execute at scale.

You have some, you have some mixes and matches of contrasting styles, but it was moving towards where I want to go. And my current company, like Fortinet, we've got a great brand. And the challenge from the website was the execution of it was a little limited. And that is an example where a website for a company our size, you have to design with scale in mind from the get go.

And that leads itself to things like templates. Well, the challenge is, if you go into it thinking templatization, and without a full view into the user experience, again, I wasn't there when the decisions were made, they're just just me reflecting on what I see and what I have to work with.

I feel the brand expression is limited. And so you see, the full range of colors that is in our brand doesn't exist on .com. We see the primary colors, you see some of the secondary, but the tertiary hardly exists. And all the wonderful accent colors that are in a secondary palette just aren't there.

And so I think my, my challenge now is, how do I take what I believe to be an incremental approach and surgically go in and change things categorically. And so I'm doing an exposition on all hero banners, and when it's done, it needs to roll out overnight. And so there's, and then same thing with icons, like once I do it, it's great.

But now you have like, thousands of pages. And then all of those in the icon library for web is a lot more expansive than typically what comms uses. And so the work to recreate is pretty, pretty significant. So those are things I'm looking at. And we're making some, we're making some changes.

I'm, I'm a data nerd, so I'm testing things all the darn time. And thank, and thankfully, the, the brand elements that we're testing in conjunction with different UI and UX layouts, it's, it's resulting in much higher conversion. So that the challenge now is rolling that out at scale. So yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of where we are.

I am hoping that just as a marketing person, like with the next year to two, I would love to see us do a brand update or refresh, you know, not moving too far from the center of who we are, but maybe just giving some more flexibility. And I remember when I was at Rubrik, the, when we did that redesign, the first exercise was a, a, an exploration on who we were as an archetype for the company.

Are we a renegade company still? Are we a thought leader, right? Are, are we the friendly type? Right, there's all those archetypes. And once you land on that, then we realize, oh, shoot, you know, as a brand for Rubrik, like in the beginning, they were renegades, they're, they're, they came out, guns a blazing, and they're doing all these crazy fun things.

But now it's like, when I joined the company, it's like, they're a multi-million dollar company. And like, now they have customers and they're, they can't go as intentionally crazy, even though like, like John, the, the VP of marketing, he had a brilliant creative mind. But then like, now it's like the archetype for the company, it's a little different now, right?

And now you're a leader and you as a leader, and that kind of, you guys actually came in around the same time because we did that redesign. We also did Rubrik forward, you guys are hugely involved in like redesigning that whole look and approach, which is really, really cool to see your, your impact on that.

And I actually borrowed some of that for the website as well. But yeah, that's just kind of like where I am on the client side of just, how do we do more with less in today's market, but also elevate the brand at the same time. It sounds like a wise move, to be honest, because like all brands, they've got, they've got to keep evolving.

And then the business evolves. And especially with businesses like Rubrik, it's so fast, isn't it? Like there is... Fast and fast. Yeah. Like a lot. And it's moving really quickly. And things do change. You go from this like quirky little startup to, we, we, one of our big clients over the last few years, we did so much work with them.

They had their IPO and everything changed. It was like they took everything in house, everything had to be safer. And I get it. They've got, they've got new goals, they've got new objectives to... New limitations as well. Yeah. When that comes, new limitations. But I think what you're doing there with kind of just evolving the little things and, and especially on the web, testing them.

That's the tricky thing, isn't it? Is like keep making, you know, maturing like that and being very careful in a way, but also keeping that heart and that sort of core of who you are and, and at least communicating some personality. Because if you're not careful, you can lose some of that personality, can't you?

You're getting that big and, you know, things are getting really standardized. It's quite hard, I think, to keep that personalization. But then you see some companies really leaning into it. And like you'd think of Salesforce and Einstein and all the little characters they've got, they just, they lean in and people obviously love it and it's obviously very successful for them.

So yeah, it's, I suppose it's always a, it's always decisions to be made and you kind of start a brand new launch. But at every, every year, every couple of months, there's avenues you can go down there where you can go safer or you can go down the adventurous route.

So yeah, brands are always going to keep moving and evolving. But Rubrik is fascinating. So like Odin Kilmer, so he's like the VP of design of product, I, I still, you know, keep in touch with him. And, you know, when I joined Rubrik, one of their decisions was, hey, like, from a branding point of view, we want our product to stand out.

And so when you look at it like a server rack, you see black, black, black, black, black, and you see white, like white as Rubrik, right? Actually, actually, funny enough, Fortinet's product is also white, our FortiGates, which is fantastic. So, but what they realized was, you know, people are sitting in front of these screens, like they'd like the terminals every day.

And when you walk by the terminal, you don't know what product it is, because they all look the same, right, that the UI interface. And so Odin came in, and he was like, when someone walks by this terminal, I want that software experience to be distinctly Rubrik. And I remember in the very beginning, like he, he pulled me into the process, which was really fun.

I was like, oh, I felt like honored, right. And yeah, we went through a mood board exercise and everything and putting on color. And his takeaway was, they made a decision that they wanted the product experience to feel distinctly consumer, which is a huge departure from what most people see.

So that was really, really cool. And so now like, it changed their color palette, the uses of transparency versus not, and their their icon choices, and, and then also taking accessibility into consideration. And you're looking at these screens for eight, 10 hours a day. So you can't have colors are too bright, because it burns the brain.

So I think that's a good example. Like you're taking your your brand, and you're executing it all the way down to product where sometimes like the brand feels like a marketing thing. And it can be disjointed from product, and it was really cool seeing them do that. I would actually love to see that in my current company.

And I think most companies in my, my B2B companies would probably agree with that, right? Like, you see all this cool stuff in marketing, how do we make the brand experience similar? Exactly. That's the ideal of the aim, isn't it, is that kind of coherency, really, from every touch point, like you said, you know, whether it be customer service to kind of the actual product itself, you know, the online presence is socially tone voice, and that's the aim, isn't it?

You know, this, like you say, it's always changing, there's no such thing as perfect. So I think it's just all aiming for that, really, is the only way forward, otherwise it's terrifying, and petrified, you can't, you know, perfection doesn't exist. So do you have any advice for someone who is maybe they're already a, they're a digital design or, or, or anything in the field, what would they need to think about to break into this industry more, or maybe catapult, catapult, you know, themselves, like, is there any advice you would give to somebody?

I think, from from a, from a designer's point of view, if you're a young designer, a student or graduate, or somebody who's just looking to change their career completely, I think, I think, similar to what you did, I think share your work, I think the more you put out there, the more comes back, because if you're silent, then there's nothing for people to respond to.

So I think put your work out there, even if at the beginning, like, you're not thinking this is not strong enough. And I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome in the creative industry, anyway, and people think this isn't good enough. And you're almost comparing, there's a quote from Gavin Stranger's book, isn't it?

It's like, don't compare your behind the scenes of other people's showreels. And I always, I always kind of think about that a little bit, like, you see these perfectly curated kind of case studies and things, but, but share the process, share your work, and try and get out and meet fellow creatives at in-person events, or, and don't be afraid to reach out to people as well, because when people email us, asking for advice, we always, I think it is difficult to get back to lots of students and lots of people, we always try and get back with at least some help or maybe meet them for a coffee and try and, and try and offer, offer some feedback.

Yeah. And I think from something I've kind of, we've learned in the years as well is maybe if you are currently working as a designer, or, you know, content strategist, or copywriter, what have you. And I think sometimes you can be drawn to these sort of creative events, and you meet fellow creatives, which is really lovely and really important.

But I think sort of we've learned almost by accident really over the years is, if you're maybe interested in one sort of industry, or one cause, or what have you, you, I think there's something to be said for immersing yourself in that and actually learning about that and maybe offering some help in that area.

So for me, that was Creative Mornings, because I love seeing creatives kind of have room to play and create things and share that experience. But maybe if it was, you know, for example, we've done work with sort of housing associations where, you know, it's a really quite gratifying work, because you're kind of helping build community and provide solutions for people.

And, you know, just thinking about it from an industry perspective, rather than thinking, right, I want to do the copywriting, it's like, what do you want to write about? And also, how can you make yourself useful? Because I think those then maybe case studies that are really quite powerful, and you get more work perhaps in that area as well.

I do think, yeah, if you if you put out tech work, there's probably going to be tech companies that get in touch with you. If you put out food and drink brands, it's going to so so even if like, I think in the beginning, what a lot of people do is they build fictional brands to build a portfolio.

So it's put out what you want to come back. I always remember when I was when I was young, when I was, I think I was a student, I did a drawing of Bob Dylan with like a super wavy curly hair, kind of inspired by the Milton Glazer kind of style a little bit.

And I posted it. And I think I had about four inquiries from like, corporate companies asking me to draw their their C suite in that style, I've got doing a children's book illustrating a children's book in that style. And it's just it's great, like it was just like a very quick doodle of Bob Dylan I put on Instagram, I think it was.

And yes, so just surprising what comes back when he puts it out there. It's a really good example, actually, because I think as well, like thinking about different industry, but also think about style. So maybe if you do want to work in a certain style, or write a certain, you know, put it out there.

It comes back. And yeah, I think that that's one thing I think we was trying to do, like, you know, working with Rubrik and other tech companies, I think sometimes you can go in thinking this is what they want the prescribes, sort of luck and feel of a tech company.

But I think what can be so gratifying for everybody involved is to actually do something completely different, especially if it's a campaign, so you've got a bit of artistic freedom. And, and just, you know, bring something that you think would not fit in the tech space can just make those those campaigns.

If you do a Google search for cybersecurity, and go to Google Images, the things that will come up will be very dark images with flashing long exposure blue lights, like it'll be cables, they'll be kind of, it'll probably be like people in hoodies looking like hats and things like that.

Whereas I think our approach to Rubrik has been some of the Rubrik projects we've done have just been crazy. Really, I think we worked on you with the review on the forward brand, where we kind of had that like, kind of arty kind of like, rig of like buildings in Chicago.

But we've recently just done a campaign with Rubrik, which they came to us, and it's illustrations all around characters that are kind of loosely based on Lord of the Rings characters. And they're like drawn in this really kind of like graphically kind of style. And it's so far removed from what you'd expect from cybersecurity.

So I think I think we've actually, when we first had John and Jane about six months in, we had we had a couple of staff at the time, and we sat down and we did a workshop of us for ourselves. And what came out of it was, our mission was to do something different.

So when we get a project, look around what what the industry is currently doing, and what's expected in that industry, and try and take a different direction, which I think that's when a company gets out of their comfort zone. That's when you get out of your comfort zone, and you can experiment and try new things.

And I think that's when the most interesting things happen as well, from a creative point of view. Yeah, I agree with all of that. You know, I think, to add on top of that great advice, I think my takeaway is as a creative, you know, if you discover an industry or an area that you're passionate about, allow yourself to pour into it, and then showcase that work, right, and hopefully that work is showcased in a way that shows kind of the diversity of skill sets, because obviously, that's what's going to get the attention first.

I think when it comes to the interview process, or actually even utilizing social, that part that I don't think it's talked about enough, which is like, when I'm making a hire for design creatives, I like how Zoom just did a thumbs up there. I don't know who in product chose to do that.

So the process of how you align or arrive at the end, it becomes really, really important, right? Because there's a difference between someone who just gets instruction, and just output something, and the output can be fantastic, or misses the mark, but if they understand your process on how you receive a instruction, and then you turn that into something, like the questions that you're asking, the things you're deliberating over, as you approach to the final design, that is really, really important.

It's a difference between an end result that is a very solid and bold and color, or something that looks really flashy and trendy, or something very conservative, like understanding how you make decisions to arrive there, and your interview process helps them understand if you're going to join the company, you're going to provide a little more perspective before the end result, right?

I think that's something that in a world of social, I wish people would do more of that, you know, like, here's the behind the scenes on how I approached this project or problem, or here's where we started, and it's something very, very different, and here's why, right? Or even like, breaking down like, hey, if it's an exercise in type font, even helping people understanding the thickness versus the thinness of a font, or how smooth or how hard it is, and how that ties into a decision on brand, helping people understand that is really, really important.

And I think with things like LinkedIn, where there's like, there's like video mediums to do that. And again, if you're trying to get yourself out there, don't limit yourself to just the work you produced. I think the method is really, really important. Yeah. And sometimes it is sometimes just getting out there as well.

And if you're, if you're looking at your own brand, for example, and you look at some of the biggest companies in the world, some of the biggest social media companies, like Twitter, if you look, even Apple, if you look back at their original logo, it's like, unrecognizable to where they, because like we said, brands have to evolve.

And yeah, I think, I think putting yourself out there is, it does take a bit of bravery and a bit of vulnerability as well, but I think it's, I think it's worth it. Cool. Sarah, Gareth, it was great having you on. It was really enjoyable conversation, but hoping you can come back again, you know, we need to talk about your, that your, your passion on t-shirts for soccer, football, but actually I have one last fun question I was asking you, I intentionally didn't prepare you for this.

Cause I'm just kind of curious. So you're, you mentioned earlier, you're a small company, but you're working with your spouse or partner. What is that like? Cause like, I like when I have a hard day at work, I try not to take that home with me, but you guys are living it together.

Right? Like, so what does that look like? I think, I think we literally share your amusement about it because we never started this seven years ago thinking, oh yeah, we'll be doing this for a good 10 years now. Well, let's do it as long as we can do it and then like chill out and not do that and go and get a job somewhere else because obviously those boundaries are really, really important.

So I'd say that's obviously where it's tricky because obviously a lot of us bring our work home at night, but obviously cause we're both across all the work, it's really easy to just talk about work all the time. But I think, you know, on the other hand, you know, on the plus side that there is that kind of working relationship that has been about, you know, nearly a decade.

So it's when we do present and when projects do go really well and, you know, that can be really, really sort of lovely thing to share actually. Yeah. It's like, I think, I think just like in work when you have a big win, it's a big win as well.

Yeah. I do think there is, there has to be a line. We, we, we often refer to ourselves in third person and it's like, we call it Gareth and Sarah and John and Jane, but I think we have to like, make sure we kind of get that, that separation there.

And, and I think this, there's certainly things that help, like we've got a dog and we get, we take the dog for a big walk every single day and just, just making sure you do the basic things as well, like go, go and do some exercise and do yoga and things like that.

Yeah. I think like with colleagues it's really, really key, isn't it, that you do have maybe some honest conversations sometimes, but I think perhaps working in this scenario, I think you have to do that by times a hundred, you have to be honest and you have to like, you know, because it's, it is otherwise can be quite intense.

There's no, no point and you can't just let things build up because, you know, there's work to do. You've got to kind of keep on top of that and, and yeah, I think, yeah, it is a tricky, tricky one. And I think a lot of people like friends and family, they're all kind of like, how are you doing?

But I don't know. It is a nature as well, I think, cause like my daughter, like with Create the Mornings, you know, we work together there, there'll be family members coming in to help and actually we really enjoy that. I know they say never work with your family or your friends even, but actually in our experience, that's always been really, really nice, isn't it?

So far. So far. Yeah. Brothers come in and children and you know, everyone has something to offer, don't they? And I think those people that are closest to you, you know, you experience, I'm sure like when you share your work things and your problems, they've got that unique take on it cause they know you so well.

So yeah, they can be helpful. Do you think you can do it too? Oh man, it's, it's tough. I probably could. My wife is pretty fantastic and I think knowing when to relinquish a control or a decision and I think being able to have humility and swallow pride where it's needed and pick and choose when you need to really argue for your point of view versus knowing when to let something go is probably, would probably be the hardest part, especially if you're, if you're each individually really strong in your points of view.

Someone has a give and take. But I think the part about walking the dog, like having a break point and then like work is now over. Now we're going to, no longer John and Jane, we're Susan and Gareth, right? I tell you, actually one straight line we do have that's really clear and has always been the case is when it goes to creative and visuals, you have final say and when it comes to maybe a strapline or the messaging, I have final say, so they're in a line in the middle.

So it's like, we can obviously feed into it, both of us, but the decision, if we are having an argument is yours or mine in most places. Yeah. I think it's good. You need to agree on how the tiebreaker is going to happen, right? Yeah. I think it'd be way more difficult if we were both designers.

I think when I was in university, I thought one day I'll start my own business with one of my designer friends. I think that would be hell. I just choose designers with strong opinions, kind of trying to figure something out. At least Sarah and I, our skill sets complement one another other than the same skillset going head to head.

So there's it is. So whoever's listening, you guys need some help for branding or having a digital agency. Like I totally recommend John and Jane. How can they find you guys? Your website or what have you? Yeah, the best place to find us would be johnandjane.agency. And we're probably most active on Instagram and LinkedIn, the two kind of platforms that we've...

I think you've got to pick your battles when you're small. So I think they're the two that we've got on our social platforms. And Instagram, is it also just John and Jane? Or... It's actually... Because our logo kind of looks like a name, we couldn't get John and Jane.

So for them, I think it is John and number eight, Jane. John and Jane. Cool. Well, thanks, guys, for being on the episode and hopefully we'll be talking again soon. Thanks so much for having us, Tim. Thanks so much, Tim. Cheers. See you. Bye. (upbeat music)