ATHLLC7751614384

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.040 | - Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks,

00:00:04.880 | a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel.

00:00:07.480 | If you're new here, I'm your host, Chris Hutchins,

00:00:09.360 | and one of the areas I love optimizing the most

00:00:11.720 | is my travel.

00:00:13.040 | So today we're gonna talk about everything you need to know

00:00:15.940 | for a trip to France,

00:00:17.120 | the world's most popular tourist destination.

00:00:19.840 | We'll dig into some of the unique off the beaten path spots,

00:00:22.540 | talk about how to have lunch like a local,

00:00:24.440 | and we'll run through all the top regions to visit

00:00:26.680 | with a deep dive on Paris.

00:00:28.540 | I've been to France about five times,

00:00:30.360 | but I couldn't think of a better guest to join me

00:00:32.600 | than Lindsay Tramuta, who's been living there since 2006.

00:00:36.200 | She's a culture and travel journalist

00:00:37.800 | who's written for the New York Times, Eater, Food & Wine,

00:00:40.360 | Condé Nast Traveler, and a lot more.

00:00:42.460 | She's also written a bunch of books about Paris,

00:00:44.440 | The New Paris, The New Parisienne,

00:00:46.500 | including a restaurant guide,

00:00:47.920 | and even has her own podcast called The New Paris Podcast.

00:00:51.200 | So whether you're thinking about your first trip to France

00:00:53.360 | or you already know you'll be going back,

00:00:55.200 | I think you'll love this episode.

00:00:57.000 | So let's jump in right after this.

00:00:59.200 | I love helping you answer all the toughest questions

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00:01:06.000 | but sometimes it's helpful to talk to other people

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00:02:32.160 | Lindsey, thank you for being here.

00:02:35.960 | Thanks for having me.

00:02:37.200 | I am excited.

00:02:38.240 | France is one of the most popular, not one,

00:02:40.360 | it is the most popular tourist destination in the world.

00:02:43.520 | I expect most people listening have either been,

00:02:46.160 | considered going, or even have a trip on the horizon.

00:02:48.940 | So I'm gonna start us off.

00:02:49.920 | I have two questions for you.

00:02:50.880 | One, why do you think France is number one?

00:02:53.680 | And what do you think the 100 million people

00:02:55.920 | who come each year might be missing when they go?

00:02:58.360 | That's a very good starter question.

00:03:00.120 | I think the sort of enduring popularity

00:03:02.560 | has to do with the way France continues

00:03:05.460 | to enter popular culture.

00:03:07.780 | So whether it's through books, through film,

00:03:09.840 | through television shows, I mean,

00:03:11.880 | generations of this sort of myth-making

00:03:14.220 | and fantasy building about France as a destination

00:03:18.160 | really goes far deeper than a lot of other cultures.

00:03:20.980 | Also, you have to remember the long relationship

00:03:22.760 | between the US, obviously France is a global destination,

00:03:25.840 | but when we think about how much it appeals

00:03:28.240 | to Americans in particular,

00:03:30.120 | that relates to the long history between the two countries.

00:03:34.760 | And essentially France was one of America's first allies.

00:03:38.600 | And so I think all of that combined

00:03:41.600 | creates a sort of attachment and a fantasy

00:03:46.600 | for people even who might be armchair travelers,

00:03:49.380 | but who know that the one day that they do get on the road

00:03:51.920 | and are able to come to Europe,

00:03:54.040 | this is probably gonna be one of the first places they come.

00:03:57.180 | And I would say Italy probably has some of this appeal

00:03:59.640 | as well because of the way, especially the Italian diaspora

00:04:02.720 | having such reach around the world.

00:04:05.120 | But actually the one thing I did come across

00:04:07.200 | in some of the research I've done over the years

00:04:09.120 | is that because France doesn't have

00:04:11.160 | a huge immigrant community in the United States,

00:04:13.920 | for example, there's a bit more mystery involved.

00:04:17.400 | And so I think that plays a role as well.

00:04:19.440 | There's a sort of mystery for the average person as to,

00:04:22.520 | well, what is France really like?

00:04:24.320 | We've seen the films, we've heard the stories,

00:04:26.560 | but what is it really like?

00:04:27.760 | And I think that is a compelling draw.

00:04:30.660 | As for what people are missing,

00:04:32.160 | really if you're focused entirely on a bucket list,

00:04:35.020 | that's already, I think, gonna lead you down a direction

00:04:38.840 | of being potentially disappointed.

00:04:41.000 | I mean, I think the kind of version of travel

00:04:43.480 | that I like to promote and that I engage in myself

00:04:46.040 | is really trying to see some of the historic things,

00:04:49.360 | but then quickly add in whatever a local might do.

00:04:52.640 | And I know that sounds sort of like,

00:04:53.960 | yeah, how local can you really get?

00:04:55.580 | But I think if you're researching your trip

00:04:58.160 | in the right places and listening to the right people,

00:05:00.520 | you'll get that more local experience

00:05:02.360 | because ultimately I wanna know where the people

00:05:05.240 | who are like me in Paris go when they're in Rome

00:05:08.360 | or Sydney or Tokyo.

00:05:10.280 | From my interactions with people who have traveled heavily,

00:05:13.820 | if you try to do too much also on a first trip

00:05:16.600 | or on any trip to Paris or to the rest of France,

00:05:19.440 | I think you'll get easily overwhelmed

00:05:21.120 | and then kind of bogged down by all of the things you saw

00:05:24.800 | and almost incapable of remembering

00:05:27.380 | sort of what the highlights were.

00:05:28.800 | So I think it's about going slower

00:05:31.320 | and figuring out what the perfect blend is

00:05:33.360 | between sort of marquee sites and landmarks and experiences

00:05:38.360 | and then those that are maybe a little bit less expected

00:05:41.120 | and more atypical.

00:05:42.680 | - I love that.

00:05:43.520 | I've actually gotten, I think, more feedback from listeners

00:05:45.800 | that the thing they want,

00:05:47.360 | and we were connected by Brandon Presser,

00:05:50.080 | who I've had two episodes with,

00:05:51.040 | and we actually talked about planning a trip.

00:05:53.440 | So you don't know this yet, I'm springing this on you,

00:05:55.320 | but it's like every time we do one of these episodes,

00:05:57.020 | I was like, what if after we actually organize

00:05:59.960 | an amazing trip together for people in the community

00:06:03.240 | to potentially go to this place

00:06:04.600 | and do some of these things?

00:06:05.920 | And the feedback I got was that everyone loved the idea

00:06:08.720 | of traveling/feeling like a local experience.

00:06:12.160 | That is the thing that I think this audience resonates with.

00:06:14.760 | So I'm so glad you're here because you value that greatly.

00:06:18.600 | - Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:19.440 | And I see the travelers who are sort of like,

00:06:21.640 | oh yeah, even the way they frame the conversation

00:06:24.320 | around what they've done, it's we did this city,

00:06:27.360 | we did that museum.

00:06:28.640 | It's like, are you doing what?

00:06:30.360 | I mean, like, are you just checking it off a list

00:06:32.240 | or are you experiencing it?

00:06:33.680 | And so I think those words are very important too,

00:06:35.680 | the way we sort of dismiss like,

00:06:37.360 | yeah, been there, done that.

00:06:38.560 | I think that's a very reductive way of looking at traveling

00:06:41.240 | to any kind of destination.

00:06:42.920 | - So we're gonna get into a lot of that stuff.

00:06:44.640 | And I'm very excited.

00:06:45.680 | But first off, for people who haven't experienced France,

00:06:49.520 | whether that means they've never been

00:06:51.120 | or whether they did the kind of thing,

00:06:52.640 | which I'm certainly guilty of early in my life of,

00:06:56.000 | let's go to a city, let's try to do it in two days.

00:06:58.600 | Let's go to the like top five sites.

00:07:00.600 | I've had that trip.

00:07:01.640 | I don't love that trip anymore,

00:07:02.920 | but I've certainly been there.

00:07:04.360 | So maybe give some highlights.

00:07:06.080 | What do you think makes a trip to France so much different

00:07:10.000 | than other places in the world?

00:07:11.240 | Whether it's people or food or culture,

00:07:13.000 | like get people a little bit whet their appetite

00:07:15.440 | for where we're gonna go with this conversation.

00:07:17.280 | - What I think is even astounding to me

00:07:20.080 | as someone who's lived here for 16 years

00:07:22.040 | is how each region really feels so different.

00:07:25.040 | So yes, you're in the same country.

00:07:27.160 | There's a semblance of shared values, of course,

00:07:30.200 | across the country.

00:07:31.240 | But beyond that, geographically, gastronomically,

00:07:35.160 | in so many other ways, culturally,

00:07:37.920 | each region really feels like it could be

00:07:39.640 | almost its own country.

00:07:40.800 | But the great thing is that it is so easy

00:07:42.720 | to get around here through trains.

00:07:45.240 | Most of everything you wanna see and do

00:07:47.320 | can be accessed either by train or by a quick flight.

00:07:50.360 | And that's kind of a huge gift.

00:07:52.040 | Obviously, you're in the US.

00:07:53.160 | I grew up in the US and everything is such an ordeal.

00:07:56.520 | It's such an expense.

00:07:57.840 | It takes ages to get most places.

00:08:00.840 | And then once you're there,

00:08:01.680 | you kind of are also like,

00:08:03.160 | I gotta maximize my time here.

00:08:04.720 | And I think the ability to engage in like much slower travel

00:08:09.360 | is all the more possible here.

00:08:11.080 | So I would say one of the compelling reasons, I think,

00:08:13.800 | or one of the gifts of France really,

00:08:15.520 | is that you can start in the north

00:08:17.800 | and go east, west, or straight to the south,

00:08:20.640 | and every experience you have

00:08:22.040 | is going to feel slightly different

00:08:23.480 | because they're really their own little mini cultures

00:08:26.000 | and microcultures.

00:08:27.000 | And so that's why one of the things

00:08:28.360 | that sort of occurred to me through COVID

00:08:30.160 | when I couldn't go very far

00:08:32.440 | was just how lucky I was to have all of this on my doorstep.

00:08:35.200 | And in that case, I was taking less trains,

00:08:37.480 | but I would get in the car with my husband

00:08:38.880 | and we would go on more road trips.

00:08:40.480 | And I think if you're someone who also likes

00:08:42.960 | the idea of renting a car and driving across France,

00:08:45.520 | that's also possible.

00:08:47.000 | To give you an example,

00:08:47.840 | my husband just went on a rock climbing trip.

00:08:49.480 | He's away right now and drove six hours,

00:08:52.400 | arrives and he's already got in a session last night

00:08:55.000 | after a six hour car ride.

00:08:56.640 | And I mean, obviously the size of the country

00:08:58.440 | allows you to do that,

00:08:59.440 | but whether you live here or you're just visiting,

00:09:01.840 | that is something that means

00:09:02.800 | you can actually do quite a lot

00:09:04.760 | and have very different experiences in one trip.

00:09:07.960 | - The one new parable I adhere to on any trip

00:09:11.000 | is travel like you're coming back for sure.

00:09:14.160 | Because I feel like early on my idea was,

00:09:17.120 | gosh, there's so many places in the world to go to.

00:09:19.520 | Every time I go somewhere,

00:09:20.800 | I have to act as if I'm never coming back.

00:09:22.560 | I literally 180'd my perspective

00:09:24.760 | of make sure I do everything,

00:09:26.640 | cram it all in 'cause I might not be back

00:09:28.640 | to let's just assume I'm absolutely coming back

00:09:31.200 | and have a good experience.

00:09:32.560 | - I think that's the right mindset.

00:09:34.240 | - And culture is an interesting one

00:09:35.800 | because I think it's not something

00:09:37.080 | that easily fits on a checklist,

00:09:39.040 | but it's something that when you really experience it,

00:09:41.920 | it's so memorable.

00:09:42.840 | So I had a conversation with Rolf Potts

00:09:45.080 | who wrote a book called "Vagabonding"

00:09:46.800 | and I can't remember if this was in the pre-talk

00:09:49.000 | or in the episode,

00:09:49.840 | but he said he was talking to someone who went to France

00:09:52.200 | and was so frustrated that all they wanted to do

00:09:55.120 | was they wanted to experience the culture of France.

00:09:57.440 | And they went to a cafe and they sat out on the sidewalk,

00:10:00.680 | people were walking by and two hours later,

00:10:03.800 | they still hadn't been able to eat and get their bill.

00:10:06.080 | And they were so frustrated because all they wanted to do

00:10:08.280 | was leave the cafe to go experience the culture of France.

00:10:11.640 | And he's like, "You just missed it."

00:10:13.480 | Like sitting at a cafe,

00:10:15.360 | taking two hours to eat your lunch

00:10:17.080 | is literally experiencing the culture of this country,

00:10:20.120 | yet you were so focused on trying to go do things.

00:10:22.800 | So my new thing is relax, slow down,

00:10:25.320 | experience what's there, don't plan too much.

00:10:27.840 | - When you're racing to get to the next,

00:10:29.440 | I don't know, museum visit or food tour or whatever,

00:10:32.000 | that's when you miss some of the most memorable moments

00:10:34.840 | also because of the people you're gonna be exposed to,

00:10:37.760 | whether it's the person sitting at the table next to you

00:10:39.520 | or the strangers walking by.

00:10:41.200 | And also France has the idea of the flaneur,

00:10:43.480 | so someone who strolls aimlessly,

00:10:46.720 | really with no destination.

00:10:48.040 | And it's strolling is almost an inadequate word

00:10:50.520 | for the idea because it truly means

00:10:52.240 | that you are at one with the sidewalk,

00:10:54.440 | with the city, with the natural motion of the city.

00:10:57.320 | You're seeing things you don't usually see,

00:10:59.160 | whether it's like the guy managing the Ferris wheel

00:11:01.560 | in one of the parks to someone selling chestnuts

00:11:04.440 | at the Metro exit, your eyes are open.

00:11:06.440 | And because you're not trying to get anywhere,

00:11:08.960 | you're seeing the city, your place or wherever

00:11:11.960 | in a way you don't usually see it.

00:11:13.320 | So this idea of the flaneur is something

00:11:15.360 | that I think is naturally appealing to travelers

00:11:17.800 | if they're prepared to sort of set the bucket list aside,

00:11:22.320 | set the checklist aside and just be.

00:11:24.400 | And so if it means you miss one of the museums,

00:11:26.920 | like you'll be fine.

00:11:28.240 | I think you'll still get a good sense

00:11:29.920 | of both what this place is and how rich it is.

00:11:33.720 | - Okay, so here's what I thought.

00:11:35.080 | Let's talk high level first,

00:11:36.520 | just about generally structuring a trip

00:11:38.480 | because it's a big country.

00:11:39.920 | If someone has limited time, they can't do everything.

00:11:42.360 | And let's talk after that a little bit

00:11:43.680 | about the culture of the people

00:11:45.000 | and then dive into some specific places.

00:11:46.800 | So high level, someone's thinking, I wanna go to France.

00:11:49.880 | Let's just talk about when to come the different seasons.

00:11:52.840 | And I'm sure there's an argument for all of them.

00:11:54.800 | So what kind of experiences you'd have

00:11:56.680 | and maybe how long you need and we'll go from there.

00:11:59.240 | - I mean, obviously anybody who has two weeks

00:12:01.800 | to spend in France, that's kind of ideal.

00:12:04.160 | But I know people who are able to still go slowly,

00:12:07.840 | but have a week or five to seven days

00:12:11.400 | and visit a couple of places.

00:12:13.000 | Obviously it's slightly more challenging

00:12:14.800 | and invariably they wish they had spent more time,

00:12:16.920 | but whatever, if you don't have two weeks, that's fine.

00:12:19.600 | I would say the period of the year

00:12:21.440 | is actually more important

00:12:22.840 | than necessarily the duration of time.

00:12:25.360 | The summer is getting increasingly more expensive

00:12:29.160 | for one, it's also extremely hot and dry.

00:12:33.120 | I mean, France is a victim of climate change

00:12:36.680 | just like every destination.

00:12:37.960 | But what we're seeing now is increasing periods of drought.

00:12:40.720 | So last summer I was traveling in the Louberon

00:12:43.240 | which is inland in Provence

00:12:45.560 | and there were serious forest fires all over the region.

00:12:49.000 | And that continued well throughout the summer.

00:12:51.720 | So there are things that change

00:12:53.000 | in what you can and can't do,

00:12:54.240 | obviously when you're in those parts of France

00:12:56.080 | when that's happening.

00:12:57.560 | But that also means that the probability

00:12:59.400 | of encountering a heat wave when you're here

00:13:01.400 | during the summer is increasing.

00:13:03.040 | And that's even true in Paris.

00:13:04.440 | To be frank, like last summer was extremely hot,

00:13:07.000 | a series of days going well over,

00:13:09.600 | I guess about 40 degrees centigrade as well,

00:13:11.480 | like over a hundred degrees

00:13:13.200 | or almost a hundred degrees Fahrenheit.

00:13:14.840 | And when you don't have a lot of AC,

00:13:16.440 | like you feel that in a really significant way.

00:13:19.360 | So summer for me is not the ideal time to come.

00:13:23.640 | If that's the only period of time you have,

00:13:25.400 | then I would maybe guide you toward cooler locations

00:13:28.960 | in France, like the Western coast where Brittany is,

00:13:31.600 | potentially Northern parts of France or Alsace.

00:13:34.320 | But even there they can get extremely,

00:13:37.280 | have a series of days that are extremely hot.

00:13:39.240 | Spring, I'm sitting in Paris right now.

00:13:41.480 | We are May 18th and the weather has been erratic,

00:13:44.920 | not very warm, very rainy since March.

00:13:48.520 | And every year is a bit different.

00:13:49.960 | So really we can't speak of sort of like any kind of trend

00:13:53.000 | for spring anymore.

00:13:54.320 | But the period of the year that seems to be

00:13:56.280 | the most reliable is like September, October.

00:13:58.880 | So if you're able to sort of wait out

00:14:00.720 | the summer travel period

00:14:01.920 | and go when most people are back to work,

00:14:04.840 | then you'll have sort of like

00:14:05.960 | the best of the country to yourself.

00:14:08.080 | And that's true even in big cities where yes,

00:14:10.280 | things are back into action,

00:14:11.760 | but you've got restaurants that are all back open

00:14:14.000 | from their summer holiday.

00:14:15.360 | You have all the new sort of museum exhibits

00:14:17.720 | and gallery openings and cultural events happening.

00:14:21.120 | And so it's kind of a sweet spot.

00:14:23.080 | Christmas too is actually a really lovely time

00:14:25.920 | because a lot of locals are gonna be with their families

00:14:29.360 | wherever you're traveling,

00:14:30.760 | but business really keeps going

00:14:33.040 | between Christmas and New Year's.

00:14:34.400 | So I'd say the worst time of the year,

00:14:36.040 | I think to be in France is New Year's day

00:14:37.840 | because literally nothing is open.

00:14:40.240 | And I think even if you're in a hotel,

00:14:41.880 | you might even have the restaurant,

00:14:43.800 | in-house restaurant that's closed.

00:14:45.360 | But aside from that,

00:14:46.400 | the fall is a really great time to come.

00:14:49.080 | So my advice is really,

00:14:50.640 | whether you have five days or two weeks,

00:14:52.400 | the more important question is, when can you come?

00:14:54.840 | - I think I've done five trips

00:14:56.240 | and I haven't had a bad trip yet.

00:14:57.800 | Obviously I kept coming back.

00:14:58.880 | Most recently was last December we came

00:15:01.720 | and we had that Christmas experience.

00:15:03.200 | We went to the Christmas markets.

00:15:04.760 | It's just wonderful.

00:15:05.880 | Like, I don't think there's a bad time,

00:15:07.560 | but I think there is a better time.

00:15:09.120 | - Yes, that's a very optimistic way of looking at it.

00:15:12.000 | - And let's talk generally about the regions.

00:15:14.640 | I think people know Paris,

00:15:16.080 | whether they've been there or not.

00:15:17.080 | They've obviously seen it in the movies.

00:15:18.760 | I think I've done a disservice to the country of France

00:15:21.200 | by spending too much of my travels to Paris

00:15:24.560 | and then some in the South.

00:15:26.000 | But even I feel like I need a little bit of an education

00:15:29.040 | on high level.

00:15:30.400 | What are the kinds of regions of places

00:15:32.040 | people might want to consider going to outside of Paris?

00:15:34.920 | - Well, you have the Loire Valley,

00:15:36.080 | which is very green, very fairytale-esque,

00:15:40.080 | known for its chateau,

00:15:41.320 | known for its incredible diversity of wines.

00:15:45.040 | Also, if you're someone who happens to be interested

00:15:46.680 | in natural wine,

00:15:47.560 | it was sort of like the birthplace

00:15:49.000 | of natural wine in France.

00:15:50.160 | So there are a lot of very interesting producers.

00:15:52.920 | You have Burgundy,

00:15:54.120 | which is sort of the next great spot to be right now,

00:15:57.240 | especially if you like wine.

00:15:59.080 | There's a whole wine route that you can take

00:16:02.160 | that really leads you through sort of

00:16:03.280 | the key winemaking towns in Burgundy.

00:16:05.680 | Then you have Alsace,

00:16:07.600 | which is on the border with Germany,

00:16:10.120 | and Strasbourg is the key city there.

00:16:11.960 | And it's very picturesque.

00:16:13.000 | It's really lovely.

00:16:14.080 | Christmas is a particularly,

00:16:15.640 | like the end of your holidays.

00:16:16.760 | It's almost a spectacle.

00:16:18.160 | - It's amazing.

00:16:19.000 | I forgot that I had been there until you just said that.

00:16:21.360 | I was like, "Oh my gosh, we went there for the holidays."

00:16:23.480 | It's so charming.

00:16:25.280 | My wife's like, "Can we go back?"

00:16:27.000 | - Charming is the word.

00:16:27.960 | And Paris, honestly,

00:16:28.840 | when you compare the Paris way of celebrating

00:16:31.680 | the end of year to what happens in Strasbourg,

00:16:34.280 | you're like, "Are the Parisians depressed?"

00:16:36.160 | Because the level of festivity is very tame,

00:16:38.560 | but it's also beautiful right now, too.

00:16:39.880 | It's very green.

00:16:40.840 | Brittany, as I mentioned before, very wild,

00:16:44.000 | obviously incredible seafood, beautiful towns.

00:16:47.200 | Then you have Normandy, which is sort of like

00:16:49.200 | almost between Brittany and Ile-de-France,

00:16:51.920 | the region where Paris is.

00:16:53.400 | And you have the D-Day beaches.

00:16:54.960 | You have lots of beautiful small towns.

00:16:57.720 | You can go to the ocean.

00:16:59.520 | And then on a completely different register,

00:17:01.360 | you have the Basque Coast, southwestern France,

00:17:04.040 | almost getting down into northern Spain,

00:17:06.320 | where you have San Sebastian and Bilbao.

00:17:09.240 | And so a lot of people will do that route, actually.

00:17:11.200 | They'll fly into maybe Biarritz

00:17:13.360 | and visit Bayonne, Biarritz, Saint-Jean-de-Luz.

00:17:16.440 | There are also big surf towns,

00:17:17.960 | which is really quite special

00:17:19.360 | if you're into that kind of like ocean sport

00:17:22.520 | kind of adventure, but also very good food.

00:17:25.920 | And then heading down even further

00:17:27.640 | into Spanish Basque country.

00:17:30.000 | Obviously, you mentioned Provence,

00:17:31.800 | but you have Provence sort of like south

00:17:34.160 | where Marseille and Avignon is.

00:17:36.000 | And then you have the Riviera south,

00:17:38.320 | which is very glitzy, very glam.

00:17:40.240 | I don't love all of it.

00:17:41.400 | I think some of it is very overly sceny.

00:17:44.240 | Saint-Tropez is like my least favorite place in France,

00:17:47.400 | just like Cannes.

00:17:48.280 | I think they're completely overrated.

00:17:49.920 | But if you have a lot of money to spend,

00:17:52.160 | I would say between the two, go to Saint-Tropez

00:17:54.400 | because there are some absolutely spectacular hotels.

00:17:57.480 | But as a general rule, they kind of let you down.

00:18:00.080 | They're kind of like the Vegas of France in some ways.

00:18:02.320 | And then the Alps, I mean, gosh,

00:18:04.040 | some of the most incredible experiences I've had

00:18:07.480 | were in the mountains

00:18:08.400 | and not only in the winter when there's snow.

00:18:10.320 | So I've been to areas around Meugeve during the summer

00:18:13.760 | and done amazing hikes.

00:18:15.000 | And then you go back in the winter

00:18:16.400 | and yes, like a lot of Europe,

00:18:19.000 | there's less and less snow during the winter

00:18:20.920 | for proper skiing.

00:18:21.920 | And so that's, again, another environmental reality.

00:18:25.160 | But the benefit of someplace like Meugeve

00:18:27.040 | is that it's lower altitude.

00:18:28.440 | And so even if you can't have

00:18:29.800 | the incredible ski slope experience,

00:18:31.600 | you have at least a village and another vibe

00:18:34.680 | that's quite special with the chalets

00:18:36.680 | and you can go snowshoeing.

00:18:39.120 | There's just like, whatever you want to do in this country,

00:18:41.320 | you can probably do it

00:18:42.640 | and have very different cuisine along the way.

00:18:46.000 | I'm glad you mentioned cuisine

00:18:47.080 | 'cause that's kind of like a core tenant

00:18:48.760 | of my style of travel.

00:18:50.520 | But before we go too far down that path,

00:18:52.120 | I'm thinking, gosh, you just described like,

00:18:54.400 | I don't know, 10 trips.

00:18:55.880 | And that's a good thing, right?

00:18:56.880 | Like all I can think about now

00:18:58.120 | is we should probably just move there for a few months.

00:19:00.080 | You know, it's like, why not?

00:19:01.160 | And what I want to know is,

00:19:02.400 | okay, so someone's now like,

00:19:03.480 | wow, I was going to take this trip.

00:19:05.000 | Is Paris a must add on a trip if you haven't been?

00:19:08.040 | Or I mean, you live there, you didn't mention it,

00:19:10.640 | I assume because I've said outside of Paris.

00:19:12.600 | To me, it's like inconceivable not to come to Paris

00:19:14.720 | at least once, because I think it's so important,

00:19:16.640 | even if for sort of a generalized understanding of France

00:19:20.000 | and how it functions.

00:19:21.320 | For better or for worse,

00:19:22.320 | it's a country that has centered everything

00:19:24.400 | around Paris, really.

00:19:25.600 | And that has to do with the way the monarchy was,

00:19:28.520 | the way the royal court had set things up,

00:19:30.360 | the way that they perceived,

00:19:31.800 | not only the economic center,

00:19:33.240 | but the cultural center of the country

00:19:35.800 | was necessarily in Paris.

00:19:37.440 | And so they kind of still have this weird thing

00:19:40.160 | where it's like Paris is the golden child

00:19:42.520 | and then everywhere else is the rest of France.

00:19:45.120 | Obviously, people don't view it that way

00:19:48.320 | on an everyday level, but you do get the sense,

00:19:50.280 | especially when you're going to museums

00:19:51.880 | and you're digging into that history on a visit to Paris,

00:19:54.680 | you see how important Paris has always been.

00:19:57.800 | In the US, obviously you have the original colonies

00:20:00.720 | that were super important,

00:20:01.840 | New York, Philadelphia, Virginia, okay.

00:20:03.800 | But Paris is like on another level.

00:20:06.520 | And so I think for you to contextualize

00:20:08.880 | the way the country functions,

00:20:10.760 | of course, if that's interesting to you,

00:20:12.200 | I mean, I think it's kind of crucial

00:20:13.640 | to have an understanding of a country

00:20:15.240 | if you're gonna visit and go beyond just like,

00:20:17.920 | again, checking off a list,

00:20:19.160 | but really getting under the surface of a place.

00:20:21.520 | It's helpful to at least know

00:20:24.200 | whether it's in a day or two,

00:20:25.480 | have had some sort of experience

00:20:27.040 | that contextualizes Paris and the rest of France.

00:20:30.320 | And just from a cultural, historical,

00:20:32.720 | architectural perspective and a culinary perspective,

00:20:35.160 | like you'd be missing out.

00:20:37.040 | You'd be missing out on a truly exceptional

00:20:40.680 | and fascinating and dynamic experience

00:20:43.680 | by overlooking Paris.

00:20:46.440 | - I don't disagree having been there plenty of times,

00:20:48.600 | and we're gonna spend some time on Paris.

00:20:50.440 | I imagine the average person's not gonna be able

00:20:51.880 | to go to all the places you mentioned.

00:20:53.600 | If you wanna try the cuisines of those places,

00:20:55.920 | I imagine Paris is the place outside of any region

00:20:58.680 | to find exposure to other styles in life

00:21:01.920 | and food in one place.

00:21:03.680 | - That's very true.

00:21:04.640 | The destination that is maybe least represented in Paris

00:21:07.640 | is Marseille, and that's a whole other breed onto itself.

00:21:10.320 | But cities like Paris and even Lyon,

00:21:12.360 | you can probably find a fair amount

00:21:14.960 | of all the other regional cuisines

00:21:17.120 | to varying degrees of excellence and expertise.

00:21:20.640 | But no, honestly, Paris is the ideal place

00:21:22.720 | to get that exposure.

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00:24:06.120 | So if someone's coming for, like you said,

00:24:07.980 | two weeks would be great.

00:24:09.020 | Let's assume they've got 10, 14 days.

00:24:11.500 | Paris is in there.

00:24:12.480 | How many days do you think,

00:24:14.220 | you could obviously spend all two weeks there,

00:24:15.860 | but if you're trying to help someone

00:24:16.820 | think about constructing their two-week itinerary to France,

00:24:19.800 | how would you think about breaking it out?

00:24:21.380 | And of all the places you just mentioned,

00:24:23.140 | are there some highlights you think are great

00:24:24.860 | for a first trip?

00:24:26.100 | The feedback I get from people is that

00:24:27.780 | if they fly directly into Paris,

00:24:29.580 | it makes sense to sort of start there,

00:24:32.240 | get acclimated, take your time.

00:24:34.660 | It's a great place to just sort of walk around.

00:24:36.700 | So if you're heavily jet lagged

00:24:38.160 | and you're sort of gearing up for

00:24:40.040 | maybe even a more active trip

00:24:41.500 | in the next places you're going,

00:24:42.740 | it's good to sort of ease in with Paris.

00:24:45.240 | It's a lot easier to adjust

00:24:46.560 | if all you have to do is walk out your apartment

00:24:48.820 | or hotel door and stumble upon a restaurant.

00:24:50.760 | You don't have to go very far, in other words,

00:24:52.860 | to sort of get yourself going when you arrive.

00:24:55.860 | So I would say spending a handful of days,

00:24:57.900 | at least four days in Paris would be ideal, to be honest,

00:25:00.660 | before making your way elsewhere.

00:25:02.120 | And I think for a first time visitor,

00:25:04.800 | it honestly makes sense to do one of two things,

00:25:07.300 | going to Normandy because of the sort of

00:25:10.060 | cultural awareness that exists,

00:25:11.660 | especially if you're someone who had

00:25:14.500 | family active in the war,

00:25:16.620 | Normandy is kind of a crucial stopping point.

00:25:19.740 | And even if you're not interested

00:25:21.300 | in the World War II experience,

00:25:23.340 | you have such beautiful landscapes,

00:25:25.700 | such incredible food,

00:25:27.060 | that it would make sense,

00:25:28.220 | as this is still relatively close to Paris,

00:25:30.740 | I can drive, I could take a train,

00:25:32.380 | I could experience some things,

00:25:33.660 | and then either come back to Paris or move on from there.

00:25:36.620 | But I think it's a good sort of

00:25:38.540 | first step outside of Paris,

00:25:40.580 | or skipping that and going directly to the South of France,

00:25:43.180 | because that's sort of one of the other iconic experiences

00:25:46.740 | and something that is so very different

00:25:48.420 | from the Parisian experience.

00:25:50.300 | So if the idea is you're gonna sort of

00:25:51.620 | mix the vibes during your trip,

00:25:53.580 | being by the Mediterranean is honestly spectacular

00:25:57.300 | and opens up a whole other world

00:25:59.540 | in terms of understanding France and how it functions.

00:26:02.100 | Certainly if you're more of an outdoorsy person,

00:26:04.860 | I would say going from Paris to Provence

00:26:07.260 | or Paris to the mountains would make great sense

00:26:11.100 | because there's so much you can do,

00:26:12.460 | whether it's, like I said, summer or winter.

00:26:15.140 | And I would say the Basque country

00:26:16.980 | is probably better for people who have been a few times

00:26:19.820 | only because it's a very different experience.

00:26:22.220 | It's more like the people who go to Portugal,

00:26:24.940 | I think, and go surfing in seaside towns in Portugal

00:26:28.100 | or are accustomed to surfing in California.

00:26:31.060 | That's kind of the vibe there.

00:26:32.700 | Yes, it's sort of a true French experience,

00:26:35.060 | but I don't think on a first trip

00:26:36.980 | that's the introduction I would recommend.

00:26:39.980 | - Okay, I wanna get to the South of France places

00:26:42.820 | 'cause you mentioned a few not to go,

00:26:44.020 | but let's pause for a second there.

00:26:45.980 | Any places you think that someone might be hearing about

00:26:49.020 | when they're planning their trip that are kind of overhyped

00:26:51.580 | or maybe kind of emerging and underappreciated?

00:26:54.380 | - I would say still Brittany remains like very,

00:26:57.900 | there's sort of like a cursory kind of coverage

00:27:01.380 | that exists around Brittany for whatever reason.

00:27:03.620 | Brittany and the Basque country, honestly,

00:27:05.140 | those are the two places.

00:27:06.340 | So again, all the Western coast of France

00:27:08.900 | that for whatever reason,

00:27:11.420 | I think maybe just being in the shadow

00:27:13.220 | of some of these more cinematic places

00:27:15.700 | don't get the kind of exposure that they deserve,

00:27:19.060 | but they are magnificent, especially in Brittany.

00:27:21.980 | There's probably more in common with like the Isle of Jersey

00:27:26.020 | and like the experience on the English coast

00:27:29.260 | than with other places in France.

00:27:31.300 | So it has this very wild, very natural,

00:27:34.220 | totally other worldly almost experience that it offers.

00:27:38.060 | And the landscapes are just absolutely breathtaking.

00:27:40.300 | And it deserves to be, I think, more frequented by foreigners

00:27:44.420 | simply because it's one of the few places

00:27:46.100 | that remains pretty cool even during the summer.

00:27:48.540 | So when we have the heat wave,

00:27:50.100 | it's sort of like always the one place we look on the map

00:27:52.340 | to be like, what was the max temperature in Brittany

00:27:54.620 | in the week of heat wave?

00:27:55.620 | And it usually is the only place in the entire country

00:27:58.380 | that is like summer acceptable.

00:27:59.780 | - So maybe a good place to add on if it's a hot summer.

00:28:02.100 | And finally, any mistakes you think people make

00:28:04.260 | when they're planning their trip that you're like,

00:28:05.820 | hey, just before we get into any more details,

00:28:07.980 | don't do X, Y, Z?

00:28:09.860 | - One of the things, I mean,

00:28:11.500 | this is a common American trait, I think,

00:28:15.020 | is packing like five suitcases

00:28:16.780 | and trying to then go a whole number of places

00:28:20.620 | and have to drag all this stuff along.

00:28:22.860 | And I think that it does a disservice

00:28:24.580 | because accommodations are almost always smaller

00:28:27.140 | than what they're used to in the States.

00:28:28.820 | And that must be true in other countries like Australia

00:28:31.380 | where things are just bigger.

00:28:32.500 | And then trying to then take all that stuff

00:28:34.860 | and go to too many places in one trip.

00:28:37.180 | I think people are like, I need to maximize my time,

00:28:39.500 | I get like two seconds of vacation, I get it.

00:28:42.220 | But think smaller, think about ease of travel,

00:28:45.220 | think about France is very old,

00:28:47.180 | much older than perhaps where you're from

00:28:49.420 | and the infrastructure tends to be narrower.

00:28:52.020 | And so when you come on your trip with 70 suitcases

00:28:55.260 | full of stuff you don't need

00:28:56.500 | or won't even remove from the suitcase,

00:28:58.820 | it seems like you're just sort of carrying dead weight

00:29:01.340 | and that's gonna be something you have to drag

00:29:03.580 | to every place you go.

00:29:04.940 | So it's sort of this combo of like overpacking your trip

00:29:07.940 | with too many destinations.

00:29:09.500 | - I think there's something that even it's taken me

00:29:11.420 | as someone who likes to save money, time to process.

00:29:14.980 | But there are some countries

00:29:15.820 | where you can't buy a lot of things

00:29:17.460 | that you might be accustomed to.

00:29:19.260 | France is not one of those countries.

00:29:21.100 | Even the simple thing, like we don't buy diapers.

00:29:24.020 | There's a lot of things.

00:29:25.180 | You didn't bring a jacket

00:29:26.540 | 'cause you didn't think it was gonna get that cold.

00:29:28.060 | There are lots of places that you can go buy a jacket,

00:29:30.500 | other things.

00:29:31.340 | So it's not a country where it's hard

00:29:33.820 | to augment what you packed.

00:29:35.580 | And so I would say, keep that in mind

00:29:38.140 | as you're thinking about

00:29:38.980 | how much you actually need to bring.

00:29:40.660 | - Also, I have to add this

00:29:42.340 | because this is a common thing that comes up.

00:29:44.340 | I mean, even from my own father who was like baffled

00:29:46.620 | when I was like, you do not need dress shoes.

00:29:49.060 | We're not going to like a two

00:29:51.740 | or three Michelin starred restaurant.

00:29:53.620 | Every single person who comes to Paris

00:29:56.300 | or almost anywhere in this country wears sneakers.

00:29:58.940 | I mean, it's like a sneaker culture now.

00:30:00.380 | So this idea that you have to have

00:30:01.860 | this excessively formal wear to go out to a restaurant

00:30:04.940 | means you're packing lots of stuff you don't need

00:30:07.100 | because that is just not the way people go out.

00:30:09.740 | - And I will even say,

00:30:11.180 | I have been to one, two

00:30:12.580 | or three Michelin star restaurant in France.

00:30:14.260 | And I didn't bring a jacket

00:30:15.740 | and they had jackets to borrow.

00:30:17.260 | It didn't fit perfectly,

00:30:18.660 | but I met the requirement without having to pack a jacket.

00:30:21.980 | And so even that,

00:30:23.460 | there is sometimes ways to skirt around that requirement.

00:30:26.260 | - Totally.

00:30:27.100 | It's very rare to get turned away at this point

00:30:28.580 | because there's usually sort of a solution.

00:30:30.380 | But the footwear in particular,

00:30:31.860 | since that adds a lot of weight to your suitcase,

00:30:34.380 | I just want to be like,

00:30:35.220 | go easy on the like fancy footwear.

00:30:37.540 | You won't need it.

00:30:39.180 | - All right.

00:30:40.020 | You talked about slowing down.

00:30:41.580 | It's where you might meet people.

00:30:43.060 | How do you describe the culture?

00:30:44.060 | I think France has a bit of a reputation

00:30:45.860 | in some people's minds for attitude and people.

00:30:49.020 | Talk about like what you've experienced.

00:30:50.620 | You've lived there 16 years.

00:30:52.340 | Like how would you describe the people

00:30:54.140 | and the culture in France?

00:30:55.180 | - This is overall a people that are very curious,

00:30:59.180 | very cultured, very in tune with the land.

00:31:03.220 | I'd say the average person knows probably more about food

00:31:06.460 | and where it comes from than other people I've met

00:31:08.940 | or that I grew up with.

00:31:10.140 | They tend to lean quite intellectual,

00:31:12.980 | a little bit philosophical.

00:31:14.420 | Yes, they can have a bit of an attitude.

00:31:16.460 | They can have a bit of a cynical outlook on life.

00:31:19.260 | And I think part of that has to do

00:31:20.420 | with sort of falling from greatness historically.

00:31:22.660 | You were the great superpower, you had the kings,

00:31:24.700 | then you had the revolution.

00:31:25.700 | And then from there, you also had de Gaulle

00:31:28.140 | who told you that they were a great people.

00:31:30.300 | And then you sort of slide out of being

00:31:32.460 | this sort of superpower

00:31:33.900 | and they have a lot of soft power, obviously.

00:31:35.740 | I mean, this is the culture that produces

00:31:37.380 | and exports a staggering number of high-end products, right?

00:31:41.940 | From this incredible artisanal know-how

00:31:44.580 | when it comes to fashion and handbag and food products

00:31:48.220 | and sort of all sorts of things.

00:31:50.340 | But it's no longer the diplomatic or political power

00:31:52.820 | that it used to be.

00:31:53.660 | And so I think some of that is like,

00:31:54.820 | they have this bit of a chip on their shoulder of like,

00:31:56.980 | well, we were historically great and powerful.

00:32:00.340 | And I think that's something

00:32:01.180 | that comes into play quite a lot,

00:32:02.540 | especially as I often analyze

00:32:04.020 | like the way the politics worked here

00:32:05.860 | and the way people perceive some of their rights

00:32:08.460 | and that they should always have them

00:32:10.060 | or not have them or whatever.

00:32:11.420 | All the debates that exist on what they should

00:32:13.860 | or shouldn't be given without any fight,

00:32:16.500 | I think all leads back to sort of their trajectory

00:32:19.100 | as a culture, as a country.

00:32:20.660 | So they're very proud people.

00:32:21.780 | Obviously they have a lot to be proud about.

00:32:23.260 | They've contributed a great number of artistic

00:32:27.220 | and gastronomic innovations in the world,

00:32:29.900 | but also architecturally.

00:32:30.980 | I mean, Paris in particular was a complete innovator

00:32:34.180 | when it came to urban planning within Europe

00:32:37.380 | in the 17th and 18th centuries.

00:32:39.420 | So that narrative or the perspective of Paris and France

00:32:42.820 | as sort of this global innovator

00:32:45.340 | kind of got lost along the way

00:32:46.980 | because other cultures picked up the pace

00:32:49.020 | or out-innovated them.

00:32:51.500 | But this is a culture that I think is very proud

00:32:53.620 | of all the things that its people,

00:32:54.940 | its greatest minds have done for the world.

00:32:57.300 | And also it's a culture that I think struggles

00:32:59.500 | with certainly some of the ills of its past.

00:33:02.300 | Is there any other country

00:33:03.460 | that has properly come to terms with their past?

00:33:05.420 | Probably not.

00:33:06.260 | But this is like an ongoing part of their existence

00:33:08.980 | and you get that sense

00:33:10.780 | that they're still grappling with some things.

00:33:13.500 | Depending on where you go,

00:33:14.460 | that'll be more or less palpable.

00:33:16.580 | But I'm sure some of your listeners

00:33:19.460 | will have heard or seen videos

00:33:21.780 | of the protests that we had since the beginning of the year

00:33:24.460 | on the pension reform.

00:33:25.660 | And you can't dissociate something like that happening

00:33:28.420 | and the outpouring of passionate critique or resistance.

00:33:33.420 | You can't associate that

00:33:35.820 | with the way the culture functions overall.

00:33:38.260 | I mean, they fight for their rights

00:33:40.180 | and that's quite admirable.

00:33:41.700 | And if that means that like your route to a museum

00:33:44.660 | gets disrupted, like, yeah,

00:33:45.980 | that's kind of part of what you come for in a way.

00:33:48.020 | You're seeing a people that are really still fighting

00:33:50.180 | for the rights they wanna protect

00:33:52.940 | and the rights that they feel that they still deserve.

00:33:54.940 | And I think you feel that in a way

00:33:56.500 | that you might not feel it to the same extent

00:33:58.300 | in other European nations.

00:34:00.020 | That's a good background on who they are,

00:34:02.380 | but what kind of local experiences

00:34:04.620 | when it comes to personal interactions

00:34:06.940 | do you think American or foreigner

00:34:08.660 | traveling to France can expect?

00:34:10.740 | I think as long as you're willing to engage with locals,

00:34:14.660 | they'll engage with you.

00:34:15.740 | I mean, if you try to speak a few words in French

00:34:17.980 | just to be like, hey, I speak very little French,

00:34:20.740 | I speak English, can I talk to you in English?

00:34:22.620 | And then you go from there

00:34:23.740 | and then you engage them on whatever they're drinking

00:34:25.900 | or what they recommend in the neighborhood.

00:34:28.060 | People are warm.

00:34:28.980 | People want to have that engagement with people,

00:34:31.820 | with travelers.

00:34:33.100 | And I think the problem arises

00:34:35.340 | when travelers sort of assume

00:34:36.940 | that they need to be sort of experience the city

00:34:40.660 | alongside of the people,

00:34:41.900 | but without actually trying to connect with them.

00:34:44.540 | I think that does a disservice to the experience.

00:34:46.540 | And then you're missing something

00:34:48.020 | that's sort of integral to the experience.

00:34:49.780 | And it could be as simple as like,

00:34:50.940 | let's say you're having a wine tasting in Burgundy

00:34:53.260 | and you're like, you know what?

00:34:54.740 | I'd love to know what you recommend.

00:34:56.620 | Where do you go when you're not at work?

00:34:58.300 | Or where do you go when you're with your family?

00:35:01.020 | Trying to get a sense of their version of the place

00:35:04.740 | and it usually allows them to relax

00:35:07.180 | and it gives them the chance

00:35:08.660 | to sort of provide for your trip.

00:35:10.860 | If they can make a difference in your trip,

00:35:12.780 | sort of as a gift to them.

00:35:14.340 | And so I get the sense that there's this love of sharing

00:35:17.300 | that you just need to tap into, but it's there.

00:35:19.780 | - I never thought about this until just this moment,

00:35:21.700 | but there's such a stark difference

00:35:23.340 | between asking someone like,

00:35:24.940 | where's the best X versus what do you think the best X is?

00:35:28.300 | And it seems like a strategy,

00:35:30.060 | maybe anywhere in the world, but especially in France

00:35:31.940 | might be to make all of your conversations

00:35:33.900 | very personal to the person you're talking to.

00:35:36.420 | - You nailed it.

00:35:37.260 | That is exactly what it is.

00:35:38.260 | I mean, the French wanna feel like you're inquiring them

00:35:41.980 | because it's them and not just that they happen to be

00:35:45.460 | a body that lives in proximity to some other stuff.

00:35:48.860 | I think that's an accurate way of assessing

00:35:53.700 | what they appreciate.

00:35:55.020 | Just like they don't expect you to be fluent.

00:35:57.660 | You don't need to like get bent out of shape

00:35:59.220 | that you can't have a full on conversation with them,

00:36:01.460 | but they do really appreciate you trying,

00:36:04.060 | whether it's with just the sort of salutations

00:36:06.100 | or asking where's the bathroom, like just try.

00:36:09.220 | - Any topics that if you find yourself at a bar

00:36:11.500 | having a conversation that you're like,

00:36:12.940 | just don't bring these things up,

00:36:14.300 | they don't lend well to a conversation in France.

00:36:17.500 | - I think talk about wealth is very taboo,

00:36:19.980 | especially given the disparities that exist

00:36:22.300 | between the ultra wealthy and the far less wealthy.

00:36:25.900 | I would say, stay clear of politics.

00:36:28.140 | I mean, if you ask people about the president,

00:36:30.460 | you don't live in the country,

00:36:31.460 | so you don't have that much of maybe a stake,

00:36:34.460 | but it can get kind of heated.

00:36:35.860 | And I think then you run the risk of them asking,

00:36:38.460 | especially if you're from the US,

00:36:40.220 | that will veer right back into sort of

00:36:42.180 | the American political system.

00:36:43.740 | And if that's not something you're really in the mood

00:36:45.460 | to start debating, then like,

00:36:46.900 | just keep politics off the table.

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00:39:54.860 | We haven't talked a little bit about broadly people

00:39:57.500 | and who it makes sense to travel with.

00:39:59.220 | We went with kids.

00:40:00.340 | Is France easy for someone with lots of children

00:40:03.380 | to travel around?

00:40:04.220 | We were only in Paris.

00:40:05.060 | Are people warm and welcoming to children being around?

00:40:07.700 | What's your perspective?

00:40:09.020 | They absolutely can be warm and welcoming to children.

00:40:11.380 | However, if you know that you have children

00:40:13.900 | who are like really ill-behaved, just good luck.

00:40:16.860 | Because the French are not going to hold back.

00:40:19.820 | If you're on a train and your kids

00:40:21.340 | are going absolutely ballistic,

00:40:23.020 | you'll hear from some people who are like,

00:40:24.500 | you're disturbing us, you need to get a hold on your kids.

00:40:26.900 | Again, I can only speak to Americans,

00:40:28.300 | but the way the Americans tend to handle

00:40:30.260 | those kinds of situations,

00:40:31.460 | they'll give you like horrible side eye.

00:40:34.140 | They might scoff at you.

00:40:35.620 | If they're older, they might definitely

00:40:37.180 | try to like parent for you.

00:40:39.980 | And I just think there are certain places,

00:40:42.220 | given there's a lot going on,

00:40:43.580 | especially in a city like Paris,

00:40:44.980 | there are a lot of people, there's a lot of noise,

00:40:46.700 | there's a lot of people trying to move quickly.

00:40:49.220 | No, we're not quite like New York,

00:40:50.700 | but people are still trying to get to where they need to go.

00:40:52.900 | And if you're traveling with like a bunch of kids

00:40:54.980 | and they're rowdy and you don't have a hold on them,

00:40:57.580 | yeah, I think it's going to be stressful for everyone,

00:41:00.180 | yourself included.

00:41:01.660 | I also think that in Paris, especially,

00:41:03.820 | you don't see a lot of very, very young kids at restaurants.

00:41:07.340 | I think parents tend to, here,

00:41:09.220 | they take them out to the parks,

00:41:10.340 | they go to kid-focused places,

00:41:13.220 | and maybe during the day they'll take their kid to a cafe

00:41:15.540 | for a snack or a hot chocolate or something.

00:41:17.380 | But in the evening, that tends to be sort of like

00:41:19.180 | parents' time.

00:41:20.660 | So almost all of my friends who have kids,

00:41:23.340 | it's extremely rare that they go out

00:41:25.940 | with their children to dinner.

00:41:27.820 | So that might mean if you're really looking

00:41:30.220 | to have a special meal without the kids,

00:41:32.180 | maybe you need to have a plan for a babysitter.

00:41:34.060 | And there are locals and resources

00:41:35.820 | where you can figure that out,

00:41:36.940 | or maybe you have an older child

00:41:38.180 | who can watch the younger child, I don't know.

00:41:40.660 | But it's totally possible.

00:41:42.580 | All of France can be super fun with kids,

00:41:44.540 | but just know that it depends on your children.

00:41:47.300 | And I think you need to be honest with yourself

00:41:48.820 | about what kind of kids you have.

00:41:50.700 | - I will say we went out to dinner almost exclusively

00:41:54.220 | with a six-month-old and a two-year-old,

00:41:57.900 | and were greeted warmly.

00:42:00.100 | - They must be very well-behaved, too.

00:42:02.340 | - I would say as well-behaved as children that age could be,

00:42:06.020 | but it went pretty well.

00:42:07.060 | So, great.

00:42:08.340 | And then, what about food?

00:42:10.140 | Are there culinary experiences that people need

00:42:12.420 | to be having on any trip to France, specific ones?

00:42:15.500 | - What I would say is that people who come to Paris

00:42:18.540 | specifically, because Paris is really the place

00:42:20.340 | you could have a whole host of culinary experiences,

00:42:24.660 | some of which are traditionally French,

00:42:26.740 | and then the rest are a very modern interpretation

00:42:30.100 | of what it means to eat in Paris today.

00:42:32.740 | And that might be blended with Southeast Asian food,

00:42:35.260 | it might be blended with Mediterranean cuisine,

00:42:38.420 | and Mediterranean cuisine could mean

00:42:39.900 | from sort of the Levantine parts of the world

00:42:43.260 | to the Italian and French coast.

00:42:46.140 | So, it really depends on what you're sort of looking for.

00:42:50.060 | I would say, if you're gonna go to a place like Paris,

00:42:52.500 | if you're gonna go to a place like Marseille,

00:42:54.460 | where there are multiple cultural influences,

00:42:57.500 | it behooves you to sort of say,

00:42:58.940 | I'm gonna have some very classically

00:43:00.300 | French bistro experiences,

00:43:02.500 | I might have a neo-bistro experience,

00:43:04.260 | which is very contemporary, very inventive,

00:43:06.020 | very market-driven, and I'm also going to have

00:43:08.740 | some of the other kinds of diasporic cuisines

00:43:11.540 | that are very present in these places,

00:43:13.260 | because they sort of all make up the fabric of the place.

00:43:15.860 | That's the important thing to keep in mind.

00:43:17.900 | Obviously, when you go to regions

00:43:19.340 | that haven't really expanded their international influences,

00:43:23.780 | it makes sense to go with whatever is there.

00:43:26.100 | Places where it's very seafood-heavy,

00:43:28.220 | and it's all very local,

00:43:29.340 | and whatever the local vegetables are,

00:43:31.100 | like, do that, have that experience.

00:43:33.700 | But certainly, like you mentioned, which was a great point,

00:43:36.780 | if you have limited time,

00:43:37.820 | and you're not gonna get to a lot of regions,

00:43:40.060 | there's quite a lot of choice in Paris alone

00:43:43.140 | to have sort of a smattering of those regional flavors.

00:43:47.580 | - That's great.

00:43:48.420 | And is there a source someone could use,

00:43:50.780 | whether it's an app, a site,

00:43:52.340 | to find reliably good ratings or places to eat?

00:43:56.140 | At least my experience, TripAdvisor is not that.

00:43:58.500 | What do the locals use?

00:43:59.780 | Is it just word of mouth?

00:44:01.140 | - It's word of mouth, but also we use,

00:44:03.420 | so it's le, and then fooding.

00:44:05.580 | I don't know what to call them.

00:44:06.500 | They're a little bit more of a niche eater.com, maybe,

00:44:10.020 | that's in English as well.

00:44:11.580 | And so if you type in, let's say,

00:44:13.540 | obviously Paris is super represented,

00:44:15.380 | Marseille, the big cities.

00:44:16.900 | But if you even type in, like, I'm going to Megève,

00:44:20.540 | which is obviously a much smaller destination,

00:44:24.540 | they too will probably have a few recommendations.

00:44:26.980 | So I would say a gauge of quality,

00:44:30.820 | also kind of vibe.

00:44:32.220 | I think the places that end up in le fooding are both good

00:44:34.940 | and also have a certain atmosphere.

00:44:36.860 | And I think that to have a little bit more

00:44:38.780 | of an insidery pool of suggestions,

00:44:41.820 | that's a better idea than getting, like,

00:44:44.460 | Joe from whatever city in America

00:44:48.020 | who said he liked this place that he found randomly.

00:44:51.300 | That's the difficulty with TripAdvisor

00:44:52.860 | and places that sort of just accumulate traveler opinions.

00:44:57.180 | I mean, I think if you're looking

00:44:58.100 | for where the locals go,

00:44:59.340 | you definitely go to a site that is run

00:45:01.580 | also by locals and local journalists.

00:45:03.780 | I would say Instagram can be helpful as well.

00:45:06.300 | And if you're looking, you know, specifically for Paris,

00:45:08.540 | like I have my own digital guide to Paris.

00:45:10.580 | I also obviously wrote a book,

00:45:11.980 | but the more updated version,

00:45:13.820 | it's like a PDF you get and you can use it

00:45:15.820 | and you can put things on your Google map.

00:45:17.300 | There is a connected Google map.

00:45:18.620 | And so there are people who do that,

00:45:20.100 | which I think is helpful.

00:45:21.740 | If you sort of sense that someone is a trustworthy voice,

00:45:25.860 | they might have something already built in for you

00:45:28.700 | to either use or purchase or whatever

00:45:31.500 | that could give you kind of a whittled down,

00:45:33.500 | but sharp curated list of places to eat.

00:45:36.660 | And then if you're obviously a Michelin person,

00:45:38.700 | if you're looking for sort of the fine dining,

00:45:40.380 | I mean, that remains still like a very acceptable guide

00:45:45.140 | to planning your eating.

00:45:46.220 | It's just might empty your wallet after a while.

00:45:48.900 | - Well, your guide is fantastic.

00:45:50.740 | I'm gonna link to that in the show notes.

00:45:51.940 | People can check that out and know where to get it.

00:45:53.980 | Couple of logistic things, timing.

00:45:55.980 | What time do people eat?

00:45:56.980 | Do you need reservations?

00:45:58.340 | Any kind of logistical guides for eating?

00:46:01.180 | - Yes, so depending on where you go,

00:46:03.180 | I mean, obviously it can vary,

00:46:05.460 | but for the most part,

00:46:06.620 | you're not really gonna be with other people

00:46:08.460 | until at least seven, 7.30.

00:46:10.220 | Seven is super early.

00:46:11.740 | That's like almost early bird here.

00:46:13.260 | There are a few places that do all day service,

00:46:16.500 | sort of like the nonstop groceries,

00:46:18.740 | but that only gives you a certain type of food, obviously.

00:46:21.020 | It's like a small percentage of your options.

00:46:24.380 | So don't figure that you're gonna have an ambiance

00:46:27.740 | and get to start eating before 7.38.

00:46:31.420 | In other parts of France,

00:46:32.500 | there might be second seatings that are at 9 p.m.,

00:46:34.900 | but for the most part,

00:46:35.900 | especially when you get into small towns,

00:46:37.820 | it's probably going to be 7.30

00:46:40.260 | and they stop serving at 10 or 10.30.

00:46:42.700 | So I think you need to keep that in mind

00:46:44.260 | if you need an afternoon snack.

00:46:46.140 | Also, the other thing people sometimes forget

00:46:47.780 | is that they don't necessarily serve lunch everywhere

00:46:51.060 | through the entire afternoon.

00:46:52.780 | So if it opens at 12 or 12.30 for lunch,

00:46:55.180 | it may close by 3 p.m. for lunch service.

00:46:58.740 | So that's something you definitely need to plan.

00:47:00.460 | And in big cities with some pretty trendy

00:47:04.020 | or just like generally really beloved establishments,

00:47:07.140 | reserving ahead is better.

00:47:08.780 | But if you arrive and you're in a hotel

00:47:10.740 | and you speak to your concierge,

00:47:12.220 | they can also try to help get you in

00:47:13.860 | so that you don't need to completely plan

00:47:15.380 | everything in advance.

00:47:16.660 | My general recommendation is try to book a few things

00:47:19.980 | and then leave the rest up to sort of improv.

00:47:23.460 | In some places, I find that

00:47:24.980 | if you see a place that looks crowded

00:47:26.820 | and it looks like it's not a bunch of tourists,

00:47:28.460 | it's probably a good spot.

00:47:30.140 | Don't worry about it.

00:47:31.100 | Does that advice apply?

00:47:33.260 | That usually bears out.

00:47:34.340 | I mean, popular could also mean though

00:47:36.820 | that depending on the time of day,

00:47:38.340 | it could mean you're in an area with a lot of companies

00:47:40.900 | and people are on their lunch break

00:47:43.140 | and they go to a certain place

00:47:44.300 | because it's convenient, inexpensive, and fine,

00:47:48.140 | but like maybe wouldn't be great in the evening.

00:47:50.380 | And that's not something you're necessarily gonna know

00:47:51.940 | if you don't really know a city

00:47:53.460 | and sort of where the business districts are.

00:47:56.140 | But for the most part, yeah.

00:47:57.340 | If you don't get the sense

00:47:58.180 | that it's like all English-speaking,

00:47:59.900 | by the same token,

00:48:00.900 | there are a bunch of very excellent restaurants in Paris,

00:48:03.220 | for example, where there are,

00:48:05.140 | because they've been written about so much,

00:48:07.180 | they actually have a largely English-speaking clientele

00:48:10.660 | but are also good.

00:48:12.380 | So it depends if you want to have that chef

00:48:14.460 | or those owners experience

00:48:16.820 | while also being seated with other English speakers.

00:48:19.540 | To me, it's like only a thing on occasion I'll do

00:48:22.580 | because I'm really into trying or supporting that chef

00:48:25.820 | or restaurant owner,

00:48:26.660 | but I do find it a bit jarring to be in a place

00:48:29.260 | where like potentially maybe my husband and I

00:48:31.740 | are the only ones speaking French.

00:48:33.380 | So in general, I personally, when I travel,

00:48:35.700 | try to avoid those scenarios

00:48:37.420 | because I'm never gonna really do the research

00:48:39.060 | to find out, but like, is it really worth me going?

00:48:41.540 | Like, that's already a bit off-putting.

00:48:44.780 | - Okay, you mentioned Paris.

00:48:45.820 | Let's dive in 'cause I wanna make sure

00:48:47.460 | we get to some details.

00:48:49.460 | You know Paris incredibly well.

00:48:50.620 | You've written books about Paris in multiple languages.

00:48:53.060 | It's impressive.

00:48:54.740 | Let's talk about someone planning there.

00:48:56.540 | You said, you know, at least three or four,

00:48:58.180 | could be a week, days in Paris.

00:49:00.140 | - Well, in terms of staying,

00:49:01.780 | I think the first question to ask

00:49:03.780 | is what neighborhood do you really wanna be planted in?

00:49:05.740 | Because that can determine

00:49:07.580 | the rest of your itinerary essentially.

00:49:09.900 | I mean, no, nothing is really that far to get to.

00:49:12.020 | And if you're gonna use public transport,

00:49:13.540 | you could be in the 11th arrondissement where I live

00:49:15.820 | and still go to the Fondation Louis Vuitton,

00:49:18.700 | which is on the Western extremities of the city.

00:49:21.220 | So it's not impossible, but I think you need to know

00:49:23.620 | sort of what you're gonna do the most of.

00:49:25.820 | Are you gonna be going to a lot of museums?

00:49:27.820 | Are you really keen on being near the river?

00:49:29.820 | That would dictate sort of

00:49:31.740 | what neighborhoods I would recommend to you.

00:49:33.300 | And once you've narrowed down

00:49:34.980 | what neighborhood you wanna be in,

00:49:36.260 | and then you can go into sort of,

00:49:38.020 | okay, do you want an apartment?

00:49:39.660 | Airbnbs are getting way more expensive.

00:49:41.900 | At this point, some people think that hotels

00:49:43.820 | are back to being sort of the greatest value,

00:49:45.740 | and you can also get a lot of boutique hotels,

00:49:47.900 | which are really charming, really interesting,

00:49:49.860 | great views, great services,

00:49:51.660 | and put you sort of in the heart of the action.

00:49:53.380 | I know a lot of people who stay in the Saint-Germain area

00:49:56.300 | because it's close to a lot of things.

00:49:58.100 | It's near the river.

00:49:59.380 | It's very charming.

00:50:00.380 | It's very picturesque.

00:50:01.580 | But for the best food experiences, it's not there.

00:50:05.140 | So I think the person who's planning needs to think like,

00:50:08.780 | okay, am I the food traveler

00:50:10.780 | who really just wants to go to all the best restaurants?

00:50:13.220 | In which case, there's a huge concentration of them

00:50:16.380 | in Eastern Paris.

00:50:17.740 | Maybe it's best I stay sort of right bank

00:50:20.660 | over by Bestie or near Oberkampf or in the Marais, at least,

00:50:25.660 | because at least that is sort of getting you closer.

00:50:28.300 | If that's not your thing and you really are like,

00:50:30.220 | I want to go antique shopping and go to museums

00:50:32.900 | and be in the pure center of the city,

00:50:36.420 | then I'd say, yeah, you could stay in the first,

00:50:38.580 | you could stay in the sixth, you could stay in the fifth,

00:50:41.260 | but it might not be the most dynamic in the evening.

00:50:44.420 | Generally, I think that the seventh

00:50:46.300 | is one of the more boring places to stay.

00:50:48.860 | It's very sleepy, it's very residential,

00:50:50.620 | so yes, that's closer to the Eiffel Tower,

00:50:52.660 | but you don't need to seat in your backyard

00:50:56.180 | to have a wonderful experience.

00:50:58.340 | - I just realized we both have been to Paris,

00:51:00.140 | you've lived there 16 years, I've been there a bunch.

00:51:02.260 | For anyone who doesn't know, Paris is structured-

00:51:04.780 | - Like a snail, it's a snail.

00:51:06.420 | - 20 arrondissements.

00:51:07.540 | - Yes, exactly.

00:51:08.700 | - And they kind of circle around from the center,

00:51:11.020 | so one being dead center going clockwise around to 20.

00:51:14.660 | So just if you hear references to the seventh and the fifth,

00:51:17.740 | you could just search Paris map

00:51:19.620 | and you'll see all of these numbers

00:51:21.060 | highlighting the regions.

00:51:22.020 | - Yes, it's true.

00:51:22.860 | I often forget that this is not the most common knowledge.

00:51:26.580 | I take that for granted, so good thing you reminded people.

00:51:29.340 | At the end of the day, if you're like,

00:51:30.580 | "I struggled to find a place and this is what I could find

00:51:33.860 | "and it was in the 15th arrondissement,"

00:51:35.500 | you'll be fine and you'll probably

00:51:36.660 | have a really lovely experience, but it's not ideal, right?

00:51:40.300 | So there are just neighborhoods where you're gonna get

00:51:42.700 | the sense that you're in the heart of things,

00:51:44.140 | that you're close to things, that it could be practical

00:51:46.820 | given the type of trip you want to have.

00:51:49.460 | - Is there a place that you'd put if you're like,

00:51:51.180 | "I wanna feel like I'm staying somewhere

00:51:52.660 | "where I'm surrounded by locals,

00:51:54.740 | "I'm having a local experience,

00:51:56.260 | "I'm close enough to things,

00:51:57.540 | "but I'm okay trekking to the sites,

00:51:59.380 | "I'm okay trekking to the best restaurants,

00:52:01.460 | "but I just kinda want a fun, interesting neighborhood

00:52:04.380 | "with good cafe, I can go relax,

00:52:06.220 | "but just feel like I'm not in the mix of it."

00:52:08.060 | Is there a place you'd throw out?

00:52:09.460 | - Yeah, I would say my part of town.

00:52:12.580 | It's funny 'cause we tend to think of things

00:52:14.140 | in terms of their metro neighborhoods,

00:52:15.900 | so like Charon, where there's a lot of good food.

00:52:18.220 | For those listening who have been here

00:52:19.820 | and who might know Paris,

00:52:20.820 | it's not far from the restaurant Septime,

00:52:22.820 | which is sort of like now totally beloved.

00:52:25.580 | You could stay in Belleville,

00:52:26.900 | which is hugely dynamic and super diverse

00:52:29.860 | and super interesting.

00:52:31.020 | And that gets you close to a park that I really love

00:52:33.300 | called the Butte Chaumont.

00:52:34.380 | So either in Belleville or further up

00:52:36.900 | into the 19th arrondissement would be wonderful

00:52:40.140 | and you could easily get on the metro

00:52:41.540 | and get right back in the center of things.

00:52:43.860 | And then on the flip side,

00:52:44.980 | if you want sort of a very calm and quiet experience,

00:52:47.940 | then yeah, I would say the 5th and 6th deeper in,

00:52:51.620 | sort of closer to like Luxembourg Gardens

00:52:53.740 | is probably gonna be more of a tranquil,

00:52:56.340 | serene, relaxing kind of experience

00:52:58.380 | that isn't necessarily right in the middle,

00:53:00.740 | but will be lovely.

00:53:02.340 | - Okay, and just for everyone's awareness,

00:53:04.500 | I don't wanna go in and say, "Here are the 50 sites."

00:53:06.940 | Like we don't need to list off all the tourist destinations

00:53:09.740 | that everyone can find in any guide or anything like that.

00:53:12.420 | But I would love to tap on, "What are a few things?"

00:53:15.180 | Because like you said,

00:53:16.020 | we don't wanna plan your whole trip for you.

00:53:17.300 | We wanna just give you some inspiration.

00:53:19.020 | Are there a few things in Paris that you think

00:53:22.100 | aren't the obvious attractions or activities

00:53:25.220 | that someone should put on their list to check out?

00:53:28.940 | Maybe they're not good for everyone,

00:53:30.540 | but for some people, worth sharing.

00:53:33.660 | - Yeah, people who are overwhelmed by the Louvre,

00:53:36.380 | especially, which I know I am,

00:53:38.140 | there are plenty of smaller museums.

00:53:40.100 | This is sort of the city of smaller museums

00:53:42.540 | and also what you would call a house museum.

00:53:45.220 | So the former private home of a very prolific writer, artist.

00:53:50.060 | And there are several that I think are worth visiting.

00:53:52.140 | The Musée de Montmartre, which is in the 18th.

00:53:56.100 | So if you're gonna go up toward the Sacré-Cœur Cathedral

00:53:59.460 | or Basilica in that neighborhood,

00:54:01.700 | so the 18th Arrondissement,

00:54:03.620 | that's a fantastic, small, really intimate museum.

00:54:06.420 | And I believe they have a nice inner garden.

00:54:08.820 | You also have the Gustave Moreau Museum.

00:54:12.020 | And similarly, it's so beautiful.

00:54:13.500 | It's quite small, really inexpensive entry fee,

00:54:16.620 | and is focused on, it was the former home

00:54:19.660 | of the artist Gustave Moreau.

00:54:21.420 | And so all of it is sort of not recreated,

00:54:23.100 | but sort of frozen in time as though it's how he left it.

00:54:26.220 | And his works are displayed

00:54:27.460 | and there's this really iconic spiral staircase

00:54:29.460 | that's really beautiful.

00:54:30.380 | And that's a much smaller, less overwhelming experience.

00:54:33.420 | And then for something bigger,

00:54:34.500 | but still completely worth visiting

00:54:36.380 | is the Carnavalet Museum, which is in the Marais.

00:54:38.620 | And it's the city of Paris museum, essentially.

00:54:41.820 | And so you have all of the works,

00:54:43.580 | all of the exhibits are related to the history of Paris.

00:54:47.180 | And that is just sort of a non-negotiable for me,

00:54:49.220 | but it often doesn't make the list for people

00:54:52.020 | when they come and they're doing the Louvre,

00:54:53.820 | the Musée d'Orsay, and some of the other big classics.

00:54:57.100 | And then finally, I would say,

00:54:58.140 | if you're really into contemporary art,

00:55:00.740 | you could go the gallery route,

00:55:02.260 | which is a little bit more intimidating,

00:55:03.660 | and I think a little bit less sort of easy to navigate,

00:55:06.460 | or you could go to the Pinot Collection,

00:55:08.900 | which is one of France's billionaires

00:55:10.660 | who has a private institution,

00:55:12.580 | but it's in a really spectacular building,

00:55:15.140 | quite in the center of city, not far from the river.

00:55:17.900 | That's a very unique experience.

00:55:19.860 | - Because we had kids, skipped out on all of the art.

00:55:22.060 | So I have nothing to add here,

00:55:23.460 | but the Cité des Sciences Museum.

00:55:26.500 | - Oh, for kids, yeah, that's great.

00:55:27.820 | - Absolutely.

00:55:28.900 | I wish our kids' nap schedule allowed us to be there longer,

00:55:31.740 | but I will give it a plug there.

00:55:33.460 | It might be the best kids' science museum I've ever been to,

00:55:36.980 | which I can't say I've been to a lot, but it was awesome.

00:55:39.940 | The park around it was awesome, easy to get to.

00:55:42.700 | So that's my one plug.

00:55:43.940 | - That's a good plug.

00:55:45.020 | And also I would say another spot

00:55:47.220 | that's also very good for adults and kids

00:55:49.340 | is the, it's called the Musée de la Chasse et la Nature.

00:55:52.300 | It's the nature and hunting museum,

00:55:54.020 | which sounds like it could be a little bit grim,

00:55:55.780 | but actually it's super well done.

00:55:57.660 | It's beautiful.

00:55:58.860 | And for kids who are like interested in seeing animals

00:56:02.060 | and paintings of animals in the natural environment,

00:56:04.940 | that's a good choice.

00:56:05.780 | Or the Natural History Museum,

00:56:07.660 | which is in the Jardin des Plantes,

00:56:09.300 | which is one of the gardens.

00:56:10.380 | And there you'll have like dinosaur bones and fossils

00:56:13.220 | and all sorts of stuff that's like really good for kids.

00:56:16.100 | - Any other kind of like unique, weird tour kind of stuff,

00:56:19.740 | whether it's like at a market,

00:56:21.100 | not the museums that we're kind of typically told about,

00:56:24.140 | but kind of cool other experiences?

00:56:26.660 | - I do think the Catacombs is a really unique experience.

00:56:29.460 | You really have to be someone

00:56:30.620 | who's not afraid of closed quarters and closed spaces.

00:56:35.420 | You also sort of have to plan ahead

00:56:36.860 | because I know that if you go too late in the afternoon,

00:56:39.540 | you may hit a point

00:56:41.420 | where they're not actually letting anyone in anymore.

00:56:43.940 | And so you've just sort of waited in line.

00:56:45.980 | It's very cool though.

00:56:47.060 | I mean, I think that's something you're not gonna get

00:56:48.740 | in a whole lot of other cities.

00:56:50.420 | And then beyond that,

00:56:51.260 | I think there's some sort of unusual tours you can get on

00:56:54.900 | that are taking you through a specific history.

00:56:57.300 | So it might be like Paris under the Occupation

00:57:00.340 | or something like the Women of Paris tour.

00:57:04.020 | There are things that are sort of

00:57:05.420 | not necessarily super unusual,

00:57:07.220 | but just not your general overview kind of experiences

00:57:11.620 | that are worth looking into.

00:57:13.780 | - Where do these good experiences exist?

00:57:16.300 | Is Airbnb Experiences a place to find them?

00:57:18.540 | Is there a better local site?

00:57:20.140 | Is there a blog that talks about things?

00:57:22.500 | - No, that's a very good question.

00:57:23.740 | I would say Airbnb Experiences,

00:57:25.660 | I think are only gonna get you so far.

00:57:27.220 | They might be okay,

00:57:28.260 | but I for one think the problem

00:57:29.900 | is that people don't spend a lot on those.

00:57:32.540 | And so you sort of get what you pay for.

00:57:34.780 | If you're really into wine tastings, for example,

00:57:36.740 | there are certain specialists, for example, certain spaces.

00:57:39.420 | There's the Cave du Louvre,

00:57:40.740 | there's Cave Woman Wines,

00:57:42.340 | and she runs different events in her wine shop.

00:57:45.500 | You sort of have to be specific when you're looking.

00:57:47.380 | But if you're looking for a service

00:57:49.060 | that has multiple types of tours or experiences,

00:57:51.820 | I think it's good to look at, for example, Context Travel,

00:57:54.540 | which is a company that runs experiences and tours

00:57:57.580 | in a variety of different cities in the world

00:57:59.820 | and have very good docents and very good themes.

00:58:02.940 | And I think in general,

00:58:04.540 | the quality of the experience is very high.

00:58:07.020 | In Paris specifically, you also have Paris by Mouth,

00:58:10.020 | which are obviously, as the name suggests, food-focused tours.

00:58:13.220 | And then there are a bunch of independent,

00:58:14.740 | smaller run kind of experiences in food.

00:58:18.260 | I mean, food is really the area

00:58:19.540 | where we're like bursting at the seams with options.

00:58:22.380 | But I would say either you get recommendations

00:58:25.740 | from let's say like a travel planner

00:58:27.660 | who has connections with certain key guides,

00:58:31.220 | or I, for one, do a couple of tours upon request

00:58:34.820 | that are based on my books, but I don't do this full time.

00:58:37.100 | So it's sort of like an upon request thing.

00:58:39.420 | If you're looking for something

00:58:40.260 | that you can sort of jump on last minute,

00:58:42.180 | you need to sort of find bigger companies.

00:58:45.180 | Get Your Guide also has some

00:58:47.220 | that I think are gonna be a little bit more qualitative

00:58:50.180 | than an Airbnb experience.

00:58:52.220 | - Okay.

00:58:53.100 | Food keeps coming up as a theme.

00:58:54.460 | So I'll just ask you to throw out any places you love

00:58:57.580 | that people should just check out.

00:58:58.900 | I know there's an unlimited number of places.

00:59:00.660 | You haven't been to them all,

00:59:01.540 | but I bet you have some places where you're like,

00:59:04.100 | here's some spots that I'd recommend eating at.

00:59:06.540 | And I know people love getting

00:59:07.980 | the kind of local recommendation.

00:59:09.940 | - So yeah, I'll give you a couple.

00:59:11.740 | Actually in the seventh arrondissement,

00:59:13.260 | which I know I kind of disparaged earlier,

00:59:15.020 | but like the key place is La Migeon,

00:59:17.580 | and that is just truly excellent consistently.

00:59:22.300 | The chef owner has been doing it for nearly 20 years.

00:59:25.580 | It has an incredible vibe.

00:59:27.340 | The portions are large.

00:59:28.820 | It's excellent, excellent, excellent food.

00:59:31.180 | There's a bit of a Southwestern French inflection,

00:59:34.380 | just really spectacular.

00:59:36.220 | Definitely need to book ahead.

00:59:37.460 | The other experience I would say

00:59:38.740 | is going into the Marché des Enfants Rouges,

00:59:40.940 | which is the oldest covered market in Paris

00:59:42.980 | and hitting up some of those stands.

00:59:44.540 | But if you want something that's like open all day nonstop,

00:59:48.020 | there's a stand in particular in the market

00:59:50.100 | called Les Enfants du Marché,

00:59:52.540 | and it's seafood, good meats, excellent natural wine.

00:59:57.540 | There's a Japanese chef, but it's all French product.

01:00:01.100 | It's an incredible vibe.

01:00:02.380 | There's a great playlist,

01:00:03.500 | and they really run from like noon until the market closes.

01:00:08.140 | So if you stumble in at 4 p.m.,

01:00:10.140 | you know you can at least have something to eat,

01:00:12.020 | and it may be the only stand open,

01:00:13.620 | but it'll be super fun.

01:00:14.620 | You know, there's like kind of a young,

01:00:16.260 | really exciting vibe there.

01:00:17.620 | Quality of the food is just spectacular.

01:00:19.540 | And there is an excellent park for children right outside,

01:00:22.660 | like one or two blocks away, which we went to.

01:00:25.860 | But my advice to parents in the parks,

01:00:27.660 | don't be alarmed if the park closes

01:00:30.180 | very promptly and very quickly.

01:00:32.100 | In the U.S., it's kind of like at night, people leave.

01:00:34.380 | In France, I've had, there was a whistle,

01:00:36.260 | and at the exact moment the park closed,

01:00:38.780 | within maybe one to two minutes,

01:00:41.700 | the entire park had vacated,

01:00:43.060 | the doors had been locked, and everyone was gone.

01:00:44.900 | And I was caught off guard thinking,

01:00:46.500 | well, the sun's still out, we could just keep playing.

01:00:48.780 | It was like, when the park closes, you leave.

01:00:51.180 | But that park is right next to that market,

01:00:53.540 | and was excellent.

01:00:54.500 | - Yeah, the Carreau du Temple,

01:00:55.780 | there's like a big cultural center over there too.

01:00:57.700 | So that's a great area to walk around in general.

01:00:59.820 | But yeah, I think it's kind of like the guards are like,

01:01:01.820 | my shift is over, I want to go home.

01:01:04.260 | Get out of the park.

01:01:05.100 | I would say also,

01:01:07.100 | Semilla is a great place in Saint-Germain.

01:01:10.100 | I'm trying to give you some options here geographically.

01:01:12.180 | It's a great sort of modern bistro that's really lovely.

01:01:16.180 | And then, oh boy, there's like coffee shops everywhere,

01:01:20.460 | like good quality coffee shops.

01:01:22.180 | If that's something that's important to you,

01:01:23.460 | it's something that's important to me.

01:01:24.740 | You have to make sure you have the list,

01:01:26.340 | because if you go into any old corner cafe,

01:01:28.340 | you'll probably have a really disgusting cup of coffee.

01:01:30.660 | - Is that list on your guide?

01:01:32.380 | - No, it's a separate guide I am currently working on,

01:01:34.780 | but a lot of it is also on my Instagram page, for example.

01:01:38.180 | And in my first book,

01:01:39.140 | there's a whole chapter on quality coffee

01:01:41.940 | and the difference between cafe culture and coffee culture.

01:01:44.420 | So if you want to sort of get the foundation

01:01:46.700 | for why it's historically been bad,

01:01:48.540 | that gives you a nice primer.

01:01:50.660 | But yeah, I think the market is a really great place

01:01:52.460 | because also it'll give you lots of options.

01:01:55.780 | That's the covered market.

01:01:56.740 | And then there are the pop-up markets

01:01:58.020 | that are several times a week in different neighborhoods.

01:02:00.300 | Definitely look into that.

01:02:01.700 | I mean, you can even Google

01:02:03.220 | open air food markets in Paris.

01:02:06.260 | It's a great place to go get a bunch of ingredients

01:02:09.140 | and cheeses and go to a park and have a picnic.

01:02:12.580 | - Love that.

01:02:13.420 | What about people that are looking for some baked goods?

01:02:16.580 | Any suggestions for a couple of bakeries?

01:02:19.620 | - I literally am physically incapable

01:02:21.300 | of giving just a couple.

01:02:22.420 | Like it's just tremendous.

01:02:24.060 | I mean, if there's one that I can recommend

01:02:26.940 | that has several locations that might be easy for people,

01:02:30.180 | Pierre Hermé is the star.

01:02:32.380 | He's been called the Picasso of pastry.

01:02:34.740 | And so obviously he has like multiple locations.

01:02:37.980 | His stuff is incredible.

01:02:39.220 | But you know, I would also say

01:02:40.740 | some of the neighborhood bakeries

01:02:42.100 | are really where the huge talent is these days.

01:02:44.500 | And one of my favorites is Utopie.

01:02:47.180 | I mean, we say Utopie, but it's spelled like Utopia,

01:02:50.220 | but with an E at the end.

01:02:51.500 | - Is it near Open Conf?

01:02:52.660 | I can't remember the name of the sub.

01:02:53.820 | - Yes, that's exactly near where it is.

01:02:56.820 | - We tried to go there.

01:02:57.660 | It was like, the line was ridiculous.

01:02:59.260 | - I mean, that'll tell you something.

01:03:00.380 | If you go on a Sunday morning, forget it.

01:03:01.860 | You're going to be waiting in a line,

01:03:02.820 | but the pastries are excellent.

01:03:04.460 | I would say Mamiche is another one.

01:03:06.740 | They have a location in the 10th

01:03:08.140 | and one in the 9th arrondissement,

01:03:10.740 | and it's really excellent.

01:03:12.420 | And then for the rest,

01:03:13.260 | I mean, you just got to connect with me and get my list.

01:03:16.100 | - Definitely connect with Lindsay.

01:03:17.780 | Getting around.

01:03:18.900 | Subway, I found easy.

01:03:20.580 | There's no real need to do anything else.

01:03:22.580 | I don't think we ever took a taxi

01:03:24.300 | or an Uber or anything at all.

01:03:25.980 | We took the train from the airport.

01:03:27.660 | Any other things people should think about

01:03:29.660 | when it comes to transportation?

01:03:31.100 | - Be mindful of the e-scooters.

01:03:34.020 | They will be phased out.

01:03:35.100 | However, at the end of August,

01:03:36.580 | because the city voted to get rid of them,

01:03:39.260 | they were a bit of a problem,

01:03:40.900 | just like the lack of enforcement of rules is a problem.

01:03:43.300 | But anyway, that's for another conversation.

01:03:45.220 | So yeah, I would say while they're still sort of operating,

01:03:47.700 | you need to be mindful when you're walking around

01:03:49.580 | because they zip and come out of nowhere.

01:03:53.020 | But you really can either walk everywhere

01:03:54.860 | or take the Metro.

01:03:55.780 | And rarely do I encounter people who are like,

01:03:58.620 | I love the bus.

01:03:59.660 | I'm going to try to figure out the bus.

01:04:01.260 | The bus is like not very efficient

01:04:03.300 | only because there's a lot of construction in the city.

01:04:07.220 | And so even though they have their own lane,

01:04:08.700 | they're often delayed

01:04:10.100 | and they don't run as frequently as the Metro.

01:04:11.740 | So you're going to spend a lot more time waiting around,

01:04:13.820 | but walk Metro.

01:04:15.420 | And if you're really courageous,

01:04:16.540 | you can take one of the bikes,

01:04:18.180 | the city bike share program or the like Uber jump things.

01:04:22.620 | They're sort of all over the place,

01:04:24.260 | but there's really very little need to take a cab

01:04:27.300 | unless you're like stumbling home drunk after a great meal.

01:04:32.300 | But even then the Metro is probably still operating.

01:04:35.100 | - We didn't talk actually about drinking and nightlife.

01:04:37.260 | What's the vibe like for bars after dinner,

01:04:41.620 | cocktails, that kind of stuff.

01:04:43.180 | - Cocktails are still very much a fixture

01:04:45.660 | of the dining and nightlife landscape.

01:04:48.180 | I would say wine bars also are sort of treated

01:04:51.460 | almost as destinations like cocktail bars,

01:04:54.140 | especially if you're into certain types of wine,

01:04:56.420 | like natural wine or organic wine.

01:04:58.380 | There's like a slew of those kinds of bars

01:05:00.980 | and even hotel bars.

01:05:02.140 | I mean, they definitely are still

01:05:03.260 | the more expensive type of experience,

01:05:05.380 | but there are some that are still very iconic,

01:05:07.700 | whether it's the Hemingway bar at the Ritz

01:05:09.860 | or the Ambassador in the Criant Hotel

01:05:14.060 | at Place de la Concorde.

01:05:15.260 | I mean, these are places that are just so sumptuous

01:05:17.300 | in terms of their interiors that like,

01:05:18.780 | if you really want that vibe

01:05:20.620 | and you don't mind spending maybe 25 euros on a cocktail,

01:05:23.260 | like go there.

01:05:24.220 | Otherwise there's really no need

01:05:25.540 | to spend a whole lot of money.

01:05:26.700 | And also if you're into beer,

01:05:28.420 | there are some craft beer bars too.

01:05:30.020 | We have all of the things.

01:05:31.420 | You can stay out late, but not too late

01:05:33.180 | 'cause all these places close,

01:05:34.540 | I think around one o'clock.

01:05:36.140 | - You mentioned Le Fooding,

01:05:37.460 | but where would you find a good cocktail bar?

01:05:40.140 | Google Maps ratings, I find,

01:05:41.460 | have become more and more reliable,

01:05:42.980 | but is that a source or what would you do?

01:05:44.980 | - Google ratings,

01:05:45.820 | but actually Le Fooding also lists cocktail bars.

01:05:48.380 | So you've got both restaurants and cocktails

01:05:50.740 | and then there are some specialists.

01:05:52.540 | There's Forrest Collins who has a website and blog.

01:05:56.420 | Her nickname is 52 Martinis,

01:05:58.180 | but her podcast has a different name.

01:06:00.060 | But essentially if you Google 52 Martinis

01:06:02.620 | and Paris cocktails,

01:06:03.540 | you'll sort of get her expert list

01:06:05.380 | and she sort of made that her niche here.

01:06:07.540 | But for a more general view,

01:06:09.140 | Le Fooding has a great list.

01:06:11.300 | - Okay.

01:06:12.140 | And then one thing that I've done in Paris

01:06:13.780 | and all of France is,

01:06:15.500 | you can also get a bottle of wine,

01:06:17.420 | get some cheese, just sit in a park.

01:06:19.700 | So what would you do to craft

01:06:21.060 | just like a nice one of those experiences

01:06:23.420 | that maybe doesn't need a restaurant?

01:06:25.140 | - That's a great option

01:06:26.380 | that honestly I do on the regular.

01:06:28.220 | As you and I were talking about

01:06:29.220 | when we first jumped on the chat,

01:06:30.700 | I was commenting on how it is almost 7.30 here

01:06:33.300 | and it's still bright and light.

01:06:34.740 | And in the heart of summer,

01:06:36.260 | you can go to the Canal Saint Martin

01:06:37.900 | or by the river

01:06:38.820 | and you'll have light until well after 10 p.m.

01:06:42.060 | So that makes it perfect for a picnic.

01:06:43.500 | But I would say avoid the like student thing,

01:06:46.780 | which is going to like the supermarket

01:06:48.940 | and buying a supermarket bottle of wine.

01:06:50.860 | Like go to a wine cellar or a wine shop,

01:06:53.100 | make it a special thing,

01:06:54.260 | figure out what region

01:06:55.340 | or what kind of wine you want to drink,

01:06:56.940 | red, white, orange, sparkling, whatever.

01:07:00.700 | Figure out the region

01:07:01.780 | and then maybe ask the wine expert

01:07:04.140 | what they recommend pairing with it,

01:07:05.540 | what kinds of cheeses,

01:07:06.460 | then go to the cheese monger.

01:07:07.540 | I mean, so yeah, you can't do this too late at night

01:07:09.340 | because obviously the shops close.

01:07:11.060 | But if you plan for it,

01:07:13.100 | you can really get some tremendous products

01:07:15.220 | and then sit outside

01:07:16.660 | and then see other people,

01:07:17.900 | mostly locals doing the same thing.

01:07:20.380 | - Love that.

01:07:21.220 | It actually reminded me,

01:07:22.060 | I had a good friend

01:07:23.060 | who gave me a couple of recommendations

01:07:24.660 | from his recent trip.

01:07:26.260 | He said on the cheese side,

01:07:28.180 | fromagerie Laurent Dubois is like the place.

01:07:31.060 | Couple other random ones he suggested

01:07:32.580 | were the Paris Philharmonic or Philharmonique.

01:07:35.180 | He had a wonderful experience to go out.

01:07:37.260 | These are all a bit across the board,

01:07:38.980 | but I was like, it just made me think to look it up.

01:07:41.220 | And the other is there's a street artist named Invader,

01:07:44.100 | which has these great space invader things.

01:07:46.900 | And there is a cool app called Flash Invaders

01:07:49.220 | where you can kind of collect all of them all over.

01:07:51.820 | They're all over France,

01:07:53.100 | like thousands and thousands

01:07:54.500 | of these kind of space invader piece of art just in Paris.

01:07:57.660 | And he said, not only was it fun for him,

01:07:59.340 | but it was super fun for his kids to have a thing

01:08:02.100 | to like go around Paris and collect

01:08:04.780 | and earn some points.

01:08:05.780 | And it kind of made the experience

01:08:07.380 | of wandering around the city,

01:08:09.140 | which might often make children kind of bored.

01:08:11.980 | It got them very excited.

01:08:13.420 | And so those were his three tips.

01:08:15.420 | - It keeps them very engaged,

01:08:16.700 | but also the adults.

01:08:17.740 | My husband does Flash,

01:08:19.380 | does the app and plays the game.

01:08:21.180 | And I have several friends that do this.

01:08:23.380 | And then those with kids definitely do it with their kids.

01:08:25.580 | And so it's sort of like fun for everyone.

01:08:27.180 | And the incentive is just to like gain a lot of points

01:08:29.500 | and then beat each other

01:08:30.740 | or just be ranked higher than one another.

01:08:32.700 | What's interesting about it is in places like Versailles

01:08:35.420 | or Fontainebleau, which have royal heritage,

01:08:39.140 | the mosaic tiles in the invaders themselves

01:08:42.980 | or the whatever they're called are very clever.

01:08:45.500 | I mean, they're related to the place in many instances,

01:08:48.300 | especially in like smaller towns.

01:08:49.940 | So you'll have like,

01:08:51.380 | I think there's one of Napoleon somewhere.

01:08:53.820 | So it does create also sort of like semi-educational,

01:08:56.300 | but also it's fun.

01:08:57.660 | - That's one thing where I was like,

01:08:58.500 | "Gang, I really missed out on that on my trip."

01:09:00.100 | He had one more recommendation,

01:09:01.700 | which is kind of in line

01:09:02.660 | with what you just mentioned with Versailles,

01:09:04.020 | which is we talked about the broader regions of France.

01:09:06.260 | We talked about Paris.

01:09:08.220 | If someone's in Paris

01:09:09.220 | and they're looking to go somewhere, but not too far,

01:09:11.820 | are there some kind of day trips

01:09:13.380 | or maybe overnight trips that you'd say

01:09:15.060 | someone should tack on?

01:09:16.100 | And maybe that's how we'll leave people today.

01:09:17.940 | - Yeah, I mean, Versailles is definitely the common one,

01:09:21.140 | but it's very overwhelming.

01:09:22.260 | And depending on when you go,

01:09:23.460 | it might be literally like everyone and their mother

01:09:26.020 | and their grandmother is there.

01:09:27.020 | And I know it feels very dense and overwhelming,

01:09:29.340 | but Fontainebleau is the other one that I would recommend

01:09:32.260 | because you get the chateau,

01:09:33.940 | you get the connection to,

01:09:35.780 | you know, it used to be the hunting lodge.

01:09:38.620 | I mean, lodge is a small word for what it actually is,

01:09:40.940 | which is like essentially a palace,

01:09:42.340 | but it's where the kings would all go

01:09:44.900 | to when they were hunting and sort of a getaway.

01:09:47.820 | And it's attached to this really lovely city,

01:09:50.140 | a town called Fontainebleau,

01:09:51.620 | and you can have a meal, you can spend the night,

01:09:53.500 | you can go to see the chateau.

01:09:54.780 | And then if you're an outdoorsy person,

01:09:56.140 | you can go to the forest,

01:09:57.620 | which is walking distance or a quick ride.

01:10:00.100 | So it's called the Fontainebleau Forest,

01:10:02.500 | and it is an internationally renowned destination

01:10:04.500 | for bouldering.

01:10:05.380 | So like I said, my husband's a boulderer and rock climber.

01:10:08.500 | This has been ever since I've known him,

01:10:10.460 | the place he goes almost every weekend,

01:10:12.020 | but you come across people who just want to hike.

01:10:14.860 | You can go walk around and pick a spot and then picnic.

01:10:18.740 | It really is a wonderful outdoor place.

01:10:20.620 | So I would say for a day trip or an overnight,

01:10:23.660 | think about Fontainebleau.

01:10:25.540 | - Awesome.

01:10:26.380 | The other one my friend suggested was Puy de Fou,

01:10:28.580 | this amusement park that he enjoyed as an adult

01:10:31.460 | and thought was super interesting,

01:10:32.620 | children enjoyed and was like, for him,

01:10:35.220 | it was the day trip highlight of the entire trip.

01:10:37.620 | And his kids thought it was the most amazing thing

01:10:40.180 | they've ever done.

01:10:41.020 | And he's like, and I loved it too.

01:10:42.140 | I don't know if you've been there.

01:10:43.340 | - And I also don't have kids.

01:10:44.420 | It's not like my first instinct to go to a place like that,

01:10:47.460 | but that's very good to know.

01:10:49.100 | And I would say that's a much better idea

01:10:50.460 | than going to Disney, which is like very underwhelming

01:10:53.340 | when or if you've experienced Disney in the U.S.

01:10:56.860 | So skip Disney.

01:10:58.860 | - But Puy de Fou, I've looked at the website

01:11:00.500 | and there's like people jumping and fire.

01:11:02.620 | And he described it as like a mix of a show

01:11:05.980 | and a carnival and a Renaissance fair,

01:11:08.500 | but with excellent food,

01:11:10.500 | which just kind of goes back to France is not gonna have

01:11:13.140 | their own French amusement park with bad food.

01:11:15.420 | He just had wonderful things to say about it.

01:11:17.340 | So Ethan, thank you for that tip and others.

01:11:20.420 | And then last thing, as people are getting around,

01:11:23.340 | we said Metro in Paris, is it train?

01:11:25.620 | Is it flights?

01:11:26.460 | If people go back to the beginning of this and think,

01:11:28.100 | ah, I'm gonna add one or two regions.

01:11:29.540 | I'm gonna do a day trip to Fontainebleau.

01:11:32.340 | Is it all train?

01:11:33.180 | Or how do you think people should think logistically

01:11:35.100 | about getting around?

01:11:36.460 | - I think if you're gonna go somewhere

01:11:37.820 | and then be trying to see a lot of things in another region,

01:11:41.900 | you can get there by train, most likely.

01:11:44.740 | To be honest, you could do everything by train.

01:11:46.580 | It just might take you a while.

01:11:47.780 | So places that are not on the high speed rail line,

01:11:50.620 | you can still access by train.

01:11:52.100 | So imagine, let's say you're gonna spend a whole week

01:11:54.540 | in Normandy, for example.

01:11:56.100 | I would say you could get there by train,

01:11:58.140 | but then you wanna be able to pick up a car.

01:11:59.780 | And so that might not make a lot of sense

01:12:01.380 | given where car rental spots are.

01:12:03.860 | So from a place like Paris, you could rent a car

01:12:05.940 | and drive to Normandy or drive to some of these places

01:12:07.980 | if you plan on trying to discover a lot of things.

01:12:10.900 | The Loire Valley is a place where you could actually do

01:12:13.100 | like a bike trip and discover the region entirely by bike

01:12:16.220 | because they have something like,

01:12:18.180 | I don't know if it's like 800 miles of bike paths

01:12:20.940 | in the entire region.

01:12:21.980 | So it's sort of set up for that kind of experience.

01:12:25.140 | And if you're going in to Provence

01:12:27.260 | and you're not gonna be staying in cities,

01:12:29.300 | and you're gonna be going into villages

01:12:30.860 | and trying to drive around and see as much as you can see,

01:12:33.500 | you will need a car.

01:12:34.500 | But there, I'd say you could take a train from Paris

01:12:37.420 | and then rent a car when you get down there

01:12:39.300 | near the train stations, like Avignon, for example,

01:12:41.940 | or Aix-en-Provence or Marseille,

01:12:44.660 | and you can rent a car and then go from there.

01:12:46.660 | The places where people tend to fly

01:12:49.180 | simply because it can be faster or more direct

01:12:51.740 | is to like to Nice, to Biarritz and the Southwestern coast.

01:12:56.740 | But there are very few places.

01:12:58.540 | If you're not in any rush and you like a long train ride,

01:13:01.500 | use the train system.

01:13:03.380 | - Amazing.

01:13:04.220 | This has been so awesome.

01:13:05.660 | So I feel like we didn't even come close

01:13:07.300 | to tapping all of your knowledge,

01:13:08.980 | but you share a lot on social.

01:13:10.980 | You have a digital restaurant guide.

01:13:12.500 | We're gonna link to it in the show notes.

01:13:14.100 | You've even written books.

01:13:15.180 | So there's a lot of stuff you've done,

01:13:17.140 | but where can people find all of it

01:13:19.100 | and can they reach out and ask questions?

01:13:20.860 | - Absolutely.

01:13:21.700 | So I think the easiest is probably just to find me

01:13:23.820 | at lindsaytremuta.com because then you can find my socials,

01:13:26.860 | you can find my newsletter signup,

01:13:28.740 | you can find my podcast signup,

01:13:30.140 | you can find all the things.

01:13:31.180 | You can find me from there and I'd be happy to chat.

01:13:34.100 | - That's awesome.

01:13:34.940 | Any parting advice for someone thinking

01:13:36.540 | about a trip to France before we sign off?

01:13:38.660 | - The only thing I would say is do a little bit of research.

01:13:41.780 | Don't just come and be like, I'm gonna wing everything

01:13:44.180 | because I think that's where people get disappointed,

01:13:46.220 | especially when it comes with food.

01:13:48.260 | Do a little bit of planning and then leave the rest

01:13:50.460 | up to sort of whatever you feel like doing,

01:13:52.860 | whatever the mood leads you to choose.

01:13:54.980 | But there is a minimum amount of planning

01:13:56.940 | that's really necessary to ensure you'll have

01:13:59.140 | the experience you deserve to have.

01:14:00.900 | - I look forward to doing that planning for the next trip.

01:14:03.500 | Thank you so much for being here.

01:14:05.700 | - Thanks, Chris.

01:14:06.660 | - Wow, we covered a lot

01:14:10.020 | and I am already excited for another trip to France.

01:14:12.740 | But before we wrap, I just briefly wanted to talk

01:14:15.300 | about using your miles and points for your next trip

01:14:17.980 | and maybe a little bit about the different ways

01:14:19.700 | to get there and some deals to be had.

01:14:21.820 | So when it comes to flights from North America,

01:14:24.420 | almost all of them are gonna be going to Paris,

01:14:26.940 | either Charles de Gaulle or Orly,

01:14:28.900 | they're two different airports.

01:14:30.500 | There are in the summer, a few flights to Nice,

01:14:32.900 | notably on Delta from Atlanta and JFK,

01:14:36.260 | on United from Newark, on La Compagnie,

01:14:38.980 | the all business class airline from Newark,

01:14:41.580 | and then from Montreal on Air Canada and Air Transat,

01:14:45.220 | which is actually an airline I have never heard of.

01:14:47.180 | There's also a strange flight on Fiji Air to Lourdes,

01:14:50.500 | which I think is just because they wanna connect.

01:14:53.500 | There must be some massive population of people

01:14:55.900 | that want to go to Fiji, so they connect all the way there.

01:14:57.900 | As for getting to Paris,

01:14:59.300 | because that's probably where anyone's France trip

01:15:01.500 | is going to start,

01:15:03.060 | especially if you're not traveling in the summer to Nice,

01:15:05.540 | there are a ton, a ton of options.

01:15:08.000 | You can fly from 22 different cities in the States,

01:15:11.020 | you can fly from five cities in Canada,

01:15:13.380 | and I didn't quite sum it entirely up,

01:15:15.900 | but there are a ton of airlines.

01:15:17.680 | So Air France is probably the largest of all of the options,

01:15:21.140 | and then American, Delta, and United all fly to Paris.

01:15:25.380 | Then a few other ones that I'll just flag,

01:15:27.460 | Air Tahiti Nui flies from Seattle and Los Angeles,

01:15:31.020 | connecting on to flights in Papiete,

01:15:34.100 | and then JetBlue flies from JFK to Paris.

01:15:37.320 | North Atlantic Airways also flies from JFK to Paris,

01:15:40.900 | and La Compagnie flies from Newark,

01:15:43.540 | which is an all-business class airline.

01:15:45.500 | And then there's two others that fly to Orly,

01:15:48.400 | which is the smaller airport in Paris.

01:15:50.220 | One is Corsair, I think it is, flies from Montreal,

01:15:54.100 | but looks like it's only in the summer.

01:15:55.780 | And then another one, if you want a good deal,

01:15:57.480 | I've actually flown them to Papiete in French Polynesia,

01:16:00.420 | is French B, which connects from SFO, LAX,

01:16:04.380 | Newark and Miami, all the way to Paris,

01:16:07.240 | definitely a great option to save money.

01:16:09.540 | The planes were new, we had a great experience.

01:16:11.960 | It's a little bit of a discount airline,

01:16:13.540 | but I thought it was a good flight,

01:16:14.900 | so definitely would recommend that.

01:16:16.900 | As for costs, when I just generally look right now,

01:16:20.280 | from the West Coast, it looks like in coach,

01:16:22.840 | you can get down to as low as $700 or $800 round trip.

01:16:26.100 | On the East Coast, $400 to $500.

01:16:28.540 | The best deals are gonna be on French B in coach.

01:16:31.660 | Then when it comes to business class,

01:16:33.180 | from the West Coast, $3,500 and up,

01:16:35.620 | on pretty much all the major airlines.

01:16:37.660 | And from the East Coast, about $2,400 and up,

01:16:40.100 | with the best deals being on JetBlue and La Compagnie.

01:16:42.780 | So let's talk briefly about miles and points though,

01:16:45.020 | because I think that is where there's some real magic,

01:16:47.460 | and I love to highlight how far your points can take you.

01:16:50.500 | So I did a handful of searches

01:16:52.480 | just to get a good sense of this.

01:16:54.180 | And looking at economy,

01:16:56.640 | there's a wide range of prices you can get.

01:16:59.240 | So this is why I think it's really important

01:17:00.940 | to consider having flexible points,

01:17:02.900 | because if you just had points in a certain carrier,

01:17:05.740 | you're not gonna get the best deal.

01:17:07.460 | For example, the absolute best deal right now

01:17:10.780 | to get to France in coach,

01:17:13.100 | you can do it on Air France for 15,000 points.

01:17:17.060 | But because there's a 20% transfer bonus,

01:17:19.340 | if you transfer from Capital One to Air France,

01:17:21.540 | it's actually only 12,500 points in economy.

01:17:24.600 | So definitely the best deal.

01:17:26.540 | And one I'll highlight is that Air France is notorious

01:17:30.020 | for not sharing all of their availability to partners,

01:17:32.960 | and Delta is notorious for charging

01:17:35.060 | egregious amounts of points for flights.

01:17:37.660 | So despite that on one single day,

01:17:39.740 | you could find a flight from Toronto to Paris

01:17:43.100 | for 15,000 miles on Air France,

01:17:45.720 | on Delta, the cheapest flight on that day was 105,000 miles.

01:17:50.500 | So just a great example

01:17:52.060 | of why having transferable points can matter.

01:17:54.180 | In this case, if you only had Delta points,

01:17:56.300 | it would cost you seven times as many points

01:17:58.760 | for that single flight.

01:17:59.860 | But that's not the only option.

01:18:01.300 | Virgin Atlantic had options for 15 to 22,000 points in coach,

01:18:06.060 | Air Canada for 33 to 40,000 points,

01:18:09.480 | but Avianca coming in at 25.5,000 points.

01:18:14.000 | So just another example on the Star Alliance side,

01:18:16.260 | which is Air Canada, United, Avianca,

01:18:18.940 | sometimes booking with different carriers

01:18:20.820 | can get you a much better deal.

01:18:21.880 | So that exact same flight

01:18:23.580 | that was 30 to 40,000 points on Air Canada,

01:18:26.420 | and probably even more on United,

01:18:28.420 | was only 25.5,000 on Avianca using their life miles,

01:18:32.600 | which you can also transfer to from certain programs.

01:18:35.340 | Looking at premium economy,

01:18:36.920 | not too many airlines offer it,

01:18:38.600 | but I did find a few options.

01:18:40.480 | Air France, about 30,000 points,

01:18:42.600 | Air Canada, 48,000 points,

01:18:44.860 | but there's actually a chase transfer bonus

01:18:46.700 | to Air Canada right now.

01:18:48.020 | So you could drop 48,000 to 40,

01:18:50.160 | and there's that same capital one transfer

01:18:52.360 | to Air France for 20% more points.

01:18:54.820 | So that 30,000 could be 25,000.

01:18:56.800 | So some great transfer point opportunities right now.

01:18:59.940 | But I know a lot of people are trying to look

01:19:01.440 | to get their points to take them in business class.

01:19:04.020 | So I looked at a few flights,

01:19:05.720 | both from Chicago and Los Angeles,

01:19:08.600 | surprisingly a lot more business class availability

01:19:11.080 | than I was expecting.

01:19:12.440 | And it really, again, depends where you fly from.

01:19:15.200 | So on the Star Alliance side,

01:19:17.560 | for the same flight, United was 80,000 points,

01:19:21.000 | Aeroplan was 70,000,

01:19:23.040 | but with that transfer bonus, it dropped to 59.

01:19:25.540 | And then Avianca with no transfer bonus was 63,000.

01:19:29.140 | So I'm definitely a big fan of transferring your points

01:19:31.300 | to the Avianca Life Miles program,

01:19:33.240 | especially for Europe flights.

01:19:34.600 | The deals are so great.

01:19:35.980 | You can transfer to them from Citi,

01:19:37.580 | Capital One, and Membership Rewards.

01:19:39.460 | Obviously, if you only have chase points,

01:19:41.020 | you can go to Air Canada,

01:19:42.180 | especially with that transfer bonus,

01:19:43.660 | it makes it the best deal.

01:19:44.780 | For Air France, it was about 80,000 points

01:19:47.520 | to get to Europe in business class

01:19:49.500 | when you found the availability.

01:19:50.820 | With 20% bonus right now,

01:19:52.420 | you can get it for about 67,000.

01:19:54.200 | And I should say I'm a big fan

01:19:55.480 | of the Air France KLM Flying Blue program,

01:19:58.040 | especially for these long haul premium cabin redemptions.

01:20:01.180 | They have really good award pricing for business class.

01:20:03.860 | The program also has access to a lot more Air France

01:20:07.540 | and KLM space than other programs do.

01:20:09.560 | So they make it really easy.

01:20:11.080 | But also, every month, they have this promo rewards offer,

01:20:14.580 | and they do 20 to 50% discounts on select awards.

01:20:18.300 | And so I definitely think every time that comes out,

01:20:21.580 | take a look and you might find some amazing deals.

01:20:24.440 | And then one of the best options of all

01:20:26.500 | was using American miles.

01:20:28.060 | If you have American miles,

01:20:29.380 | or if you have built points that can transfer there,

01:20:31.860 | 57.5,000 points for business class.

01:20:35.340 | The only thing to be aware of

01:20:37.080 | is if you're doing that flight

01:20:38.380 | and it's on an American flight,

01:20:40.360 | the taxes are significantly lower

01:20:42.980 | than if you're doing that flight

01:20:44.260 | and it's on a British Airways flight.

01:20:46.380 | As much as I love British Airways

01:20:48.080 | and they have great planes and service and lounges,

01:20:51.560 | when you're on British Airways

01:20:52.680 | crossing the Atlantic Ocean,

01:20:54.120 | they charge an egregious amount of taxes and fees,

01:20:57.200 | sometimes as much as $800, $900 each way.

01:21:00.400 | So definitely make sure that if you're looking

01:21:02.640 | on One World Flights,

01:21:04.520 | booking through something like American,

01:21:06.880 | try to look for flights that are not on British Airways

01:21:09.320 | 'cause you're gonna save a lot of money on taxes.

01:21:11.360 | So that's flights.

01:21:12.240 | Feel free to take a listen

01:21:13.400 | to the end of the episode we did on Italy.

01:21:15.720 | There's a little bit of overlap,

01:21:16.960 | so there might be some extra content

01:21:18.240 | about flights to Europe,

01:21:19.500 | but let's move on to hotels.

01:21:21.480 | There are an incredibly large number of options,

01:21:23.760 | over 200 hotels that you can book

01:21:26.160 | with either Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott, or IHG points,

01:21:30.000 | really so many options.

01:21:31.680 | So I won't go deep into all of them

01:21:33.520 | because at the end of the day,

01:21:34.680 | it really comes down to availability,

01:21:36.520 | but I will highlight a few amazing redemptions I saw

01:21:39.320 | just doing some quick searching.

01:21:41.080 | And again, I was doing all of this searching

01:21:43.240 | using Aways, A-W-A-Y-Z.

01:21:46.320 | It's a live cash and award pricer

01:21:48.600 | that really makes travel planning easy,

01:21:50.620 | that helps you get a great deal on hotels.

01:21:53.360 | It factors in things like fifth night free.

01:21:55.600 | It shows you the prices in points and dollars.

01:21:58.260 | And one of the cool things is you can filter

01:21:59.760 | by either which chain you wanna look at,

01:22:01.640 | or you can filter by which points you have,

01:22:03.540 | whether they're Amex or Chase,

01:22:05.340 | or even specific hotel points,

01:22:07.200 | or whether you're even trying

01:22:08.040 | to use a free night certificate.

01:22:09.680 | And as an All The Hacks listener,

01:22:11.200 | you get $10 off the premium annual plan

01:22:13.560 | every single year from now into the future.

01:22:16.200 | And that's at allthehacks.com/aways, A-W-A-Y-Z.

01:22:20.720 | They've launched a couple new things recently

01:22:22.580 | that I figure I'll share quickly.

01:22:24.000 | One, they now have email award availability alerts.

01:22:27.700 | So you can set alerts.

01:22:28.920 | Hey, when this hotel opens up, let me know.

01:22:31.480 | Then they also changed their pricing

01:22:33.720 | such that they have a free plan

01:22:36.000 | that lets you do a handful of searches early on

01:22:38.640 | just to get a feel for the product.

01:22:40.160 | They have a trip pass if you're just planning a trip

01:22:42.400 | and wanna dive in.

01:22:43.360 | And then again, if you're gonna be using this a lot

01:22:45.320 | like I am, they have an annual premium plan

01:22:47.760 | that you can get $10 off.

01:22:49.320 | So I'll start with Hyatt.

01:22:50.460 | They've got 47 hotels in France.

01:22:53.200 | I'll start with a couple in Paris.

01:22:54.960 | The Park Hyatt is absolutely amazing.

01:22:57.600 | Talk about a deal.

01:22:58.960 | I found it for 40,000 points a night available

01:23:01.960 | for a room that would otherwise be $2,065.

01:23:06.320 | That means you're getting 5 cents per point,

01:23:08.120 | which is an excellent redemption.

01:23:09.840 | Obviously, if you're booking in the Chase portal,

01:23:11.740 | you'd be getting at most 1 1/2 cents.

01:23:14.280 | So great use of points.

01:23:15.860 | And then also the Hotel de Louvre was 30,000 points,

01:23:18.760 | so a little less expensive, and $1,026 a night.

01:23:22.520 | So not quite the same value, but less points.

01:23:26.360 | Still getting almost 3 1/2 cents per point.

01:23:28.440 | A bunch of other Hyatt options,

01:23:30.240 | especially some of these cool SLH,

01:23:32.560 | small luxury hotel properties they have.

01:23:35.000 | Definitely worth taking a look.

01:23:36.280 | And if you have Chase or BuiltPoints,

01:23:37.980 | you can easily transfer to Hyatt.

01:23:39.880 | On Hilton, Hilton has 27 hotels in France,

01:23:42.600 | at least according to their website.

01:23:44.040 | There are a ton, but I'll highlight two really cool ones.

01:23:47.000 | One is the Waldorf Astoria in Versailles.

01:23:50.620 | Really cool property, looks awesome.

01:23:52.900 | I've never stayed there,

01:23:54.040 | but after doing a little bit of research,

01:23:55.700 | it seems like it would be an awesome time,

01:23:57.360 | especially if you don't wanna just make it a day trip.

01:23:59.880 | Again, Hilton points are not the easiest

01:24:02.280 | to get a ton of value out of,

01:24:04.080 | but if you have those free night certificates,

01:24:05.580 | they can be a great use.

01:24:07.120 | This hotel was 80,000 points on Hilton,

01:24:09.320 | but the cash rate was $500.

01:24:11.280 | Even better deal was the Maison Astor in Paris.

01:24:14.220 | It's a curio collection hotel.

01:24:16.000 | It's 64,000 points a night on the nights I looked

01:24:18.880 | for a cash rate of $620,

01:24:21.160 | which means you're almost getting a cent per point,

01:24:23.400 | which I think the average valuation for Hilton points

01:24:25.960 | is close to half a cent.

01:24:27.040 | So that's a pretty good deal there as well.

01:24:29.260 | I can't remember if I was factoring in fifth night free

01:24:31.800 | for both of these stays, but if I wasn't,

01:24:33.900 | obviously that would go down

01:24:35.080 | if you booked a five night stay at either.

01:24:37.140 | Not sure you'd wanna spend five nights down at Versailles,

01:24:39.520 | but maybe you would, but definitely in Paris, no problem.

01:24:42.840 | On the Marriott front,

01:24:44.040 | there's 69 Marriott hotels across France.

01:24:47.040 | For some reason it came up with a higher number,

01:24:49.000 | but it was showing ones in Geneva.

01:24:50.700 | I think 69 is the right number,

01:24:52.040 | but I'm not gonna bet on it.

01:24:53.200 | Two properties that I thought looked really great

01:24:55.680 | that I would check out, especially for the deals.

01:24:57.780 | The Prince de Galles is a luxury hotel collection in Paris,

01:25:01.620 | and I found it for 119,500 points a night.

01:25:05.520 | So just shy of 120,000 points,

01:25:08.160 | but the cash rate was almost $2,000.

01:25:11.880 | So this would be a way to get more than 1 1/2 cent

01:25:14.000 | per point value for Marriott, which is very rare.

01:25:16.960 | Also fifth night free on Marriott

01:25:19.000 | if you wanna save a little.

01:25:20.140 | But if you're not looking to spend

01:25:21.480 | 120,000 Marriott points per night,

01:25:24.040 | the Renaissance Paris near the Eiffel Tower

01:25:26.700 | is only 52,000 points a night,

01:25:28.760 | and the cash rate on that hotel is about $543.

01:25:32.360 | So you're still getting almost one cent per point there.

01:25:35.380 | Good use for Marriott points.

01:25:37.480 | Still not a good enough use

01:25:39.120 | that I would be transferring points to Marriott,

01:25:41.800 | or Hilton for that matter,

01:25:43.440 | unless I was just shy of a redemption

01:25:45.400 | and transferring those points got me to the redemption.

01:25:48.000 | And the same is also true of IHG.

01:25:49.800 | I just haven't found deals

01:25:52.160 | that make it worth transferring points

01:25:54.080 | from Chase, Capua, and Amex to the hotel chains,

01:25:57.080 | except for Hyatt.

01:25:58.680 | Man, Hyatt getting 3 1/2 to five cents per point

01:26:01.600 | is a really, really killer deal.

01:26:03.480 | So I will transfer Chase points to Hyatt

01:26:05.780 | for redemptions all the time.

01:26:07.440 | On the rest, I don't not like using those points.

01:26:10.600 | I have a Marriott card, I have a Hilton card,

01:26:12.800 | and I'm earning points when I stay at those hotels

01:26:14.840 | and using them for those properties.

01:26:16.600 | I'm just not transferring the points there

01:26:18.640 | from other credit card programs.

01:26:20.120 | On the IHG front, I didn't find any amazing deals,

01:26:24.080 | but a couple hotels worth looking at.

01:26:25.980 | The Hotel Indigo and the Kempton Saint Honoré

01:26:28.840 | looked wonderful,

01:26:30.200 | but another property that wasn't as high on the luxury tier

01:26:32.880 | was the Crown Plaza in Paris at République,

01:26:35.840 | which I will just flag was where we stayed

01:26:38.560 | and an incredible part of town.

01:26:40.440 | So much great food, so walkable.

01:26:43.140 | So if I had IHG points,

01:26:44.480 | I found that for 44,000 points a night,

01:26:47.040 | definitely something I'd consider using.

01:26:49.280 | Speaking of Kempton, the Kempton chain,

01:26:51.200 | which is a part of IHG,

01:26:52.840 | has this interesting thing where they create passwords.

01:26:55.360 | And if you use the password when you check in,

01:26:57.960 | which always feels a little bit strange,

01:26:59.600 | you get some kind of perks,

01:27:01.000 | whether it's free parking, free breakfast,

01:27:03.000 | free drinks, free snacks.

01:27:04.840 | And so the password, at least until September 3rd,

01:27:07.880 | is no shade.

01:27:09.480 | So if you're checking in to a Kempton hotel,

01:27:12.320 | don't forget to say no shade at check-in

01:27:14.360 | to get yourself some perks, at least through September.

01:27:17.360 | After that, you might wanna Google around

01:27:18.840 | and see if you can find the new password at the time.

01:27:21.320 | Finally, there is another chain I'll mention,

01:27:23.200 | two of them actually, the Choice Hotel chain.

01:27:25.580 | They've got 20 hotels in France.

01:27:27.820 | They're all quality hotel, comfort hotel, or comfort suites.

01:27:32.020 | Definitely nothing fancy and luxurious,

01:27:34.280 | but definitely good options if you have choice points.

01:27:36.920 | Still not sure I would transfer.

01:27:38.600 | And then the Accor chain has a massive coverage,

01:27:41.960 | all of Europe, tons of hotels.

01:27:44.660 | But the way their points program works

01:27:46.440 | is you just get a fixed 2.2 cents of value per point.

01:27:49.520 | If you already have Accor points, great.

01:27:51.280 | If you're staying at Accor properties,

01:27:53.200 | absolutely I would be making sure you're earning points.

01:27:56.200 | But when you look to transfer from Capital One,

01:27:59.000 | it's two Capital One points for every one point at Accor.

01:28:02.720 | So to get a point, you're gonna need to give up two.

01:28:05.520 | And so you're really just getting

01:28:06.760 | about that same one cent per value.

01:28:08.760 | Technically, it's 1.1 cents,

01:28:10.900 | but I think your points can go a lot further than that.

01:28:13.200 | So I wouldn't look at Choice or Accor,

01:28:15.400 | really any of these chains except Hyatt,

01:28:17.380 | as the best options for transferring points to,

01:28:20.040 | unless you find really a diamond in the rough redemption,

01:28:23.160 | which is possible.

01:28:24.380 | But if you have points in those programs,

01:28:26.180 | there are a lot of great options,

01:28:27.600 | and hopefully you can find something really great.

01:28:30.440 | Just to wrap for a quick fun thing,

01:28:32.000 | we're talking about France.

01:28:33.040 | If you heard last week's episode,

01:28:34.720 | Amy and I are trying to figure out

01:28:35.720 | where to go on this trip we have.

01:28:37.340 | We did finally pull the trigger on French Polynesia,

01:28:39.560 | so we will get to practice some French.

01:28:41.360 | We technically, I guess,

01:28:42.480 | legally are going to a domiciled part of France.

01:28:44.760 | So I guess that'll qualify for mentioning in this episode.

01:28:47.840 | But we haven't actually figured out

01:28:49.160 | the hotel situation yet, which we leave in three days.

01:28:52.960 | So hopefully by the next time I talk about that trip,

01:28:55.280 | I will let you know what we ended up doing,

01:28:56.840 | because not having a hotel is just not an option.

01:28:58.920 | So I'm sure it'll be amazing,

01:29:00.180 | but really cutting it to the wire here,

01:29:02.080 | which I think I kind of enjoy.

01:29:04.200 | And as I get older,

01:29:05.440 | I'm kind of realizing is not as enjoyable as it used to be.

01:29:08.080 | But thank you so much for listening this far.

01:29:10.280 | I hope you're inspired for your next trip to France.

01:29:12.500 | I know I am, and I will see you next week.

01:29:15.280 | (upbeat music)

01:29:17.860 | (upbeat music)

01:29:20.440 | (upbeat music)

01:29:23.020 | [BLANK_AUDIO]