(upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel. If you're new here, I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and one of the areas I love optimizing the most is my travel. So today we're gonna talk about everything you need to know for a trip to France, the world's most popular tourist destination.

We'll dig into some of the unique off the beaten path spots, talk about how to have lunch like a local, and we'll run through all the top regions to visit with a deep dive on Paris. I've been to France about five times, but I couldn't think of a better guest to join me than Lindsay Tramuta, who's been living there since 2006.

She's a culture and travel journalist who's written for the New York Times, Eater, Food & Wine, Condé Nast Traveler, and a lot more. She's also written a bunch of books about Paris, The New Paris, The New Parisienne, including a restaurant guide, and even has her own podcast called The New Paris Podcast.

So whether you're thinking about your first trip to France or you already know you'll be going back, I think you'll love this episode. So let's jump in right after this. I love helping you answer all the toughest questions about life, money, and so much more, but sometimes it's helpful to talk to other people in your situation, which actually gets harder as you build your wealth.

So I wanna introduce you to today's sponsor, Long Angle. Long Angle is a community of high net worth individuals with backgrounds in everything from technology, finance, medicine, to real estate, law, manufacturing, and more. I'm a member of Long Angle. I've loved being a part of the community, and I've even had one of the founders, Tad Fallows, join me on all the hacks in episode 87 to talk about alternative investments.

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Again, that's longangle, A-N-G-L-E.com. Lindsey, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. I am excited. France is one of the most popular, not one, it is the most popular tourist destination in the world. I expect most people listening have either been, considered going, or even have a trip on the horizon.

So I'm gonna start us off. I have two questions for you. One, why do you think France is number one? And what do you think the 100 million people who come each year might be missing when they go? That's a very good starter question. I think the sort of enduring popularity has to do with the way France continues to enter popular culture.

So whether it's through books, through film, through television shows, I mean, generations of this sort of myth-making and fantasy building about France as a destination really goes far deeper than a lot of other cultures. Also, you have to remember the long relationship between the US, obviously France is a global destination, but when we think about how much it appeals to Americans in particular, that relates to the long history between the two countries.

And essentially France was one of America's first allies. And so I think all of that combined creates a sort of attachment and a fantasy for people even who might be armchair travelers, but who know that the one day that they do get on the road and are able to come to Europe, this is probably gonna be one of the first places they come.

And I would say Italy probably has some of this appeal as well because of the way, especially the Italian diaspora having such reach around the world. But actually the one thing I did come across in some of the research I've done over the years is that because France doesn't have a huge immigrant community in the United States, for example, there's a bit more mystery involved.

And so I think that plays a role as well. There's a sort of mystery for the average person as to, well, what is France really like? We've seen the films, we've heard the stories, but what is it really like? And I think that is a compelling draw. As for what people are missing, really if you're focused entirely on a bucket list, that's already, I think, gonna lead you down a direction of being potentially disappointed.

I mean, I think the kind of version of travel that I like to promote and that I engage in myself is really trying to see some of the historic things, but then quickly add in whatever a local might do. And I know that sounds sort of like, yeah, how local can you really get?

But I think if you're researching your trip in the right places and listening to the right people, you'll get that more local experience because ultimately I wanna know where the people who are like me in Paris go when they're in Rome or Sydney or Tokyo. From my interactions with people who have traveled heavily, if you try to do too much also on a first trip or on any trip to Paris or to the rest of France, I think you'll get easily overwhelmed and then kind of bogged down by all of the things you saw and almost incapable of remembering sort of what the highlights were.

So I think it's about going slower and figuring out what the perfect blend is between sort of marquee sites and landmarks and experiences and then those that are maybe a little bit less expected and more atypical. - I love that. I've actually gotten, I think, more feedback from listeners that the thing they want, and we were connected by Brandon Presser, who I've had two episodes with, and we actually talked about planning a trip.

So you don't know this yet, I'm springing this on you, but it's like every time we do one of these episodes, I was like, what if after we actually organize an amazing trip together for people in the community to potentially go to this place and do some of these things?

And the feedback I got was that everyone loved the idea of traveling/feeling like a local experience. That is the thing that I think this audience resonates with. So I'm so glad you're here because you value that greatly. - Yeah, absolutely. And I see the travelers who are sort of like, oh yeah, even the way they frame the conversation around what they've done, it's we did this city, we did that museum.

It's like, are you doing what? I mean, like, are you just checking it off a list or are you experiencing it? And so I think those words are very important too, the way we sort of dismiss like, yeah, been there, done that. I think that's a very reductive way of looking at traveling to any kind of destination.

- So we're gonna get into a lot of that stuff. And I'm very excited. But first off, for people who haven't experienced France, whether that means they've never been or whether they did the kind of thing, which I'm certainly guilty of early in my life of, let's go to a city, let's try to do it in two days.

Let's go to the like top five sites. I've had that trip. I don't love that trip anymore, but I've certainly been there. So maybe give some highlights. What do you think makes a trip to France so much different than other places in the world? Whether it's people or food or culture, like get people a little bit whet their appetite for where we're gonna go with this conversation.

- What I think is even astounding to me as someone who's lived here for 16 years is how each region really feels so different. So yes, you're in the same country. There's a semblance of shared values, of course, across the country. But beyond that, geographically, gastronomically, in so many other ways, culturally, each region really feels like it could be almost its own country.

But the great thing is that it is so easy to get around here through trains. Most of everything you wanna see and do can be accessed either by train or by a quick flight. And that's kind of a huge gift. Obviously, you're in the US. I grew up in the US and everything is such an ordeal.

It's such an expense. It takes ages to get most places. And then once you're there, you kind of are also like, I gotta maximize my time here. And I think the ability to engage in like much slower travel is all the more possible here. So I would say one of the compelling reasons, I think, or one of the gifts of France really, is that you can start in the north and go east, west, or straight to the south, and every experience you have is going to feel slightly different because they're really their own little mini cultures and microcultures.

And so that's why one of the things that sort of occurred to me through COVID when I couldn't go very far was just how lucky I was to have all of this on my doorstep. And in that case, I was taking less trains, but I would get in the car with my husband and we would go on more road trips.

And I think if you're someone who also likes the idea of renting a car and driving across France, that's also possible. To give you an example, my husband just went on a rock climbing trip. He's away right now and drove six hours, arrives and he's already got in a session last night after a six hour car ride.

And I mean, obviously the size of the country allows you to do that, but whether you live here or you're just visiting, that is something that means you can actually do quite a lot and have very different experiences in one trip. - The one new parable I adhere to on any trip is travel like you're coming back for sure.

Because I feel like early on my idea was, gosh, there's so many places in the world to go to. Every time I go somewhere, I have to act as if I'm never coming back. I literally 180'd my perspective of make sure I do everything, cram it all in 'cause I might not be back to let's just assume I'm absolutely coming back and have a good experience.

- I think that's the right mindset. - And culture is an interesting one because I think it's not something that easily fits on a checklist, but it's something that when you really experience it, it's so memorable. So I had a conversation with Rolf Potts who wrote a book called "Vagabonding" and I can't remember if this was in the pre-talk or in the episode, but he said he was talking to someone who went to France and was so frustrated that all they wanted to do was they wanted to experience the culture of France.

And they went to a cafe and they sat out on the sidewalk, people were walking by and two hours later, they still hadn't been able to eat and get their bill. And they were so frustrated because all they wanted to do was leave the cafe to go experience the culture of France.

And he's like, "You just missed it." Like sitting at a cafe, taking two hours to eat your lunch is literally experiencing the culture of this country, yet you were so focused on trying to go do things. So my new thing is relax, slow down, experience what's there, don't plan too much.

- When you're racing to get to the next, I don't know, museum visit or food tour or whatever, that's when you miss some of the most memorable moments also because of the people you're gonna be exposed to, whether it's the person sitting at the table next to you or the strangers walking by.

And also France has the idea of the flaneur, so someone who strolls aimlessly, really with no destination. And it's strolling is almost an inadequate word for the idea because it truly means that you are at one with the sidewalk, with the city, with the natural motion of the city.

You're seeing things you don't usually see, whether it's like the guy managing the Ferris wheel in one of the parks to someone selling chestnuts at the Metro exit, your eyes are open. And because you're not trying to get anywhere, you're seeing the city, your place or wherever in a way you don't usually see it.

So this idea of the flaneur is something that I think is naturally appealing to travelers if they're prepared to sort of set the bucket list aside, set the checklist aside and just be. And so if it means you miss one of the museums, like you'll be fine. I think you'll still get a good sense of both what this place is and how rich it is.

- Okay, so here's what I thought. Let's talk high level first, just about generally structuring a trip because it's a big country. If someone has limited time, they can't do everything. And let's talk after that a little bit about the culture of the people and then dive into some specific places.

So high level, someone's thinking, I wanna go to France. Let's just talk about when to come the different seasons. And I'm sure there's an argument for all of them. So what kind of experiences you'd have and maybe how long you need and we'll go from there. - I mean, obviously anybody who has two weeks to spend in France, that's kind of ideal.

But I know people who are able to still go slowly, but have a week or five to seven days and visit a couple of places. Obviously it's slightly more challenging and invariably they wish they had spent more time, but whatever, if you don't have two weeks, that's fine. I would say the period of the year is actually more important than necessarily the duration of time.

The summer is getting increasingly more expensive for one, it's also extremely hot and dry. I mean, France is a victim of climate change just like every destination. But what we're seeing now is increasing periods of drought. So last summer I was traveling in the Louberon which is inland in Provence and there were serious forest fires all over the region.

And that continued well throughout the summer. So there are things that change in what you can and can't do, obviously when you're in those parts of France when that's happening. But that also means that the probability of encountering a heat wave when you're here during the summer is increasing.

And that's even true in Paris. To be frank, like last summer was extremely hot, a series of days going well over, I guess about 40 degrees centigrade as well, like over a hundred degrees or almost a hundred degrees Fahrenheit. And when you don't have a lot of AC, like you feel that in a really significant way.

So summer for me is not the ideal time to come. If that's the only period of time you have, then I would maybe guide you toward cooler locations in France, like the Western coast where Brittany is, potentially Northern parts of France or Alsace. But even there they can get extremely, have a series of days that are extremely hot.

Spring, I'm sitting in Paris right now. We are May 18th and the weather has been erratic, not very warm, very rainy since March. And every year is a bit different. So really we can't speak of sort of like any kind of trend for spring anymore. But the period of the year that seems to be the most reliable is like September, October.

So if you're able to sort of wait out the summer travel period and go when most people are back to work, then you'll have sort of like the best of the country to yourself. And that's true even in big cities where yes, things are back into action, but you've got restaurants that are all back open from their summer holiday.

You have all the new sort of museum exhibits and gallery openings and cultural events happening. And so it's kind of a sweet spot. Christmas too is actually a really lovely time because a lot of locals are gonna be with their families wherever you're traveling, but business really keeps going between Christmas and New Year's.

So I'd say the worst time of the year, I think to be in France is New Year's day because literally nothing is open. And I think even if you're in a hotel, you might even have the restaurant, in-house restaurant that's closed. But aside from that, the fall is a really great time to come.

So my advice is really, whether you have five days or two weeks, the more important question is, when can you come? - I think I've done five trips and I haven't had a bad trip yet. Obviously I kept coming back. Most recently was last December we came and we had that Christmas experience.

We went to the Christmas markets. It's just wonderful. Like, I don't think there's a bad time, but I think there is a better time. - Yes, that's a very optimistic way of looking at it. - And let's talk generally about the regions. I think people know Paris, whether they've been there or not.

They've obviously seen it in the movies. I think I've done a disservice to the country of France by spending too much of my travels to Paris and then some in the South. But even I feel like I need a little bit of an education on high level. What are the kinds of regions of places people might want to consider going to outside of Paris?

- Well, you have the Loire Valley, which is very green, very fairytale-esque, known for its chateau, known for its incredible diversity of wines. Also, if you're someone who happens to be interested in natural wine, it was sort of like the birthplace of natural wine in France. So there are a lot of very interesting producers.

You have Burgundy, which is sort of the next great spot to be right now, especially if you like wine. There's a whole wine route that you can take that really leads you through sort of the key winemaking towns in Burgundy. Then you have Alsace, which is on the border with Germany, and Strasbourg is the key city there.

And it's very picturesque. It's really lovely. Christmas is a particularly, like the end of your holidays. It's almost a spectacle. - It's amazing. I forgot that I had been there until you just said that. I was like, "Oh my gosh, we went there for the holidays." It's so charming.

My wife's like, "Can we go back?" - Charming is the word. And Paris, honestly, when you compare the Paris way of celebrating the end of year to what happens in Strasbourg, you're like, "Are the Parisians depressed?" Because the level of festivity is very tame, but it's also beautiful right now, too.

It's very green. Brittany, as I mentioned before, very wild, obviously incredible seafood, beautiful towns. Then you have Normandy, which is sort of like almost between Brittany and Ile-de-France, the region where Paris is. And you have the D-Day beaches. You have lots of beautiful small towns. You can go to the ocean.

And then on a completely different register, you have the Basque Coast, southwestern France, almost getting down into northern Spain, where you have San Sebastian and Bilbao. And so a lot of people will do that route, actually. They'll fly into maybe Biarritz and visit Bayonne, Biarritz, Saint-Jean-de-Luz. There are also big surf towns, which is really quite special if you're into that kind of like ocean sport kind of adventure, but also very good food.

And then heading down even further into Spanish Basque country. Obviously, you mentioned Provence, but you have Provence sort of like south where Marseille and Avignon is. And then you have the Riviera south, which is very glitzy, very glam. I don't love all of it. I think some of it is very overly sceny.

Saint-Tropez is like my least favorite place in France, just like Cannes. I think they're completely overrated. But if you have a lot of money to spend, I would say between the two, go to Saint-Tropez because there are some absolutely spectacular hotels. But as a general rule, they kind of let you down.

They're kind of like the Vegas of France in some ways. And then the Alps, I mean, gosh, some of the most incredible experiences I've had were in the mountains and not only in the winter when there's snow. So I've been to areas around Meugeve during the summer and done amazing hikes.

And then you go back in the winter and yes, like a lot of Europe, there's less and less snow during the winter for proper skiing. And so that's, again, another environmental reality. But the benefit of someplace like Meugeve is that it's lower altitude. And so even if you can't have the incredible ski slope experience, you have at least a village and another vibe that's quite special with the chalets and you can go snowshoeing.

There's just like, whatever you want to do in this country, you can probably do it and have very different cuisine along the way. I'm glad you mentioned cuisine 'cause that's kind of like a core tenant of my style of travel. But before we go too far down that path, I'm thinking, gosh, you just described like, I don't know, 10 trips.

And that's a good thing, right? Like all I can think about now is we should probably just move there for a few months. You know, it's like, why not? And what I want to know is, okay, so someone's now like, wow, I was going to take this trip. Is Paris a must add on a trip if you haven't been?

Or I mean, you live there, you didn't mention it, I assume because I've said outside of Paris. To me, it's like inconceivable not to come to Paris at least once, because I think it's so important, even if for sort of a generalized understanding of France and how it functions.

For better or for worse, it's a country that has centered everything around Paris, really. And that has to do with the way the monarchy was, the way the royal court had set things up, the way that they perceived, not only the economic center, but the cultural center of the country was necessarily in Paris.

And so they kind of still have this weird thing where it's like Paris is the golden child and then everywhere else is the rest of France. Obviously, people don't view it that way on an everyday level, but you do get the sense, especially when you're going to museums and you're digging into that history on a visit to Paris, you see how important Paris has always been.

In the US, obviously you have the original colonies that were super important, New York, Philadelphia, Virginia, okay. But Paris is like on another level. And so I think for you to contextualize the way the country functions, of course, if that's interesting to you, I mean, I think it's kind of crucial to have an understanding of a country if you're gonna visit and go beyond just like, again, checking off a list, but really getting under the surface of a place.

It's helpful to at least know whether it's in a day or two, have had some sort of experience that contextualizes Paris and the rest of France. And just from a cultural, historical, architectural perspective and a culinary perspective, like you'd be missing out. You'd be missing out on a truly exceptional and fascinating and dynamic experience by overlooking Paris.

- I don't disagree having been there plenty of times, and we're gonna spend some time on Paris. I imagine the average person's not gonna be able to go to all the places you mentioned. If you wanna try the cuisines of those places, I imagine Paris is the place outside of any region to find exposure to other styles in life and food in one place.

- That's very true. The destination that is maybe least represented in Paris is Marseille, and that's a whole other breed onto itself. But cities like Paris and even Lyon, you can probably find a fair amount of all the other regional cuisines to varying degrees of excellence and expertise. But no, honestly, Paris is the ideal place to get that exposure.

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So if someone's coming for, like you said, two weeks would be great. Let's assume they've got 10, 14 days. Paris is in there. How many days do you think, you could obviously spend all two weeks there, but if you're trying to help someone think about constructing their two-week itinerary to France, how would you think about breaking it out?

And of all the places you just mentioned, are there some highlights you think are great for a first trip? The feedback I get from people is that if they fly directly into Paris, it makes sense to sort of start there, get acclimated, take your time. It's a great place to just sort of walk around.

So if you're heavily jet lagged and you're sort of gearing up for maybe even a more active trip in the next places you're going, it's good to sort of ease in with Paris. It's a lot easier to adjust if all you have to do is walk out your apartment or hotel door and stumble upon a restaurant.

You don't have to go very far, in other words, to sort of get yourself going when you arrive. So I would say spending a handful of days, at least four days in Paris would be ideal, to be honest, before making your way elsewhere. And I think for a first time visitor, it honestly makes sense to do one of two things, going to Normandy because of the sort of cultural awareness that exists, especially if you're someone who had family active in the war, Normandy is kind of a crucial stopping point.

And even if you're not interested in the World War II experience, you have such beautiful landscapes, such incredible food, that it would make sense, as this is still relatively close to Paris, I can drive, I could take a train, I could experience some things, and then either come back to Paris or move on from there.

But I think it's a good sort of first step outside of Paris, or skipping that and going directly to the South of France, because that's sort of one of the other iconic experiences and something that is so very different from the Parisian experience. So if the idea is you're gonna sort of mix the vibes during your trip, being by the Mediterranean is honestly spectacular and opens up a whole other world in terms of understanding France and how it functions.

Certainly if you're more of an outdoorsy person, I would say going from Paris to Provence or Paris to the mountains would make great sense because there's so much you can do, whether it's, like I said, summer or winter. And I would say the Basque country is probably better for people who have been a few times only because it's a very different experience.

It's more like the people who go to Portugal, I think, and go surfing in seaside towns in Portugal or are accustomed to surfing in California. That's kind of the vibe there. Yes, it's sort of a true French experience, but I don't think on a first trip that's the introduction I would recommend.

- Okay, I wanna get to the South of France places 'cause you mentioned a few not to go, but let's pause for a second there. Any places you think that someone might be hearing about when they're planning their trip that are kind of overhyped or maybe kind of emerging and underappreciated?

- I would say still Brittany remains like very, there's sort of like a cursory kind of coverage that exists around Brittany for whatever reason. Brittany and the Basque country, honestly, those are the two places. So again, all the Western coast of France that for whatever reason, I think maybe just being in the shadow of some of these more cinematic places don't get the kind of exposure that they deserve, but they are magnificent, especially in Brittany.

There's probably more in common with like the Isle of Jersey and like the experience on the English coast than with other places in France. So it has this very wild, very natural, totally other worldly almost experience that it offers. And the landscapes are just absolutely breathtaking. And it deserves to be, I think, more frequented by foreigners simply because it's one of the few places that remains pretty cool even during the summer.

So when we have the heat wave, it's sort of like always the one place we look on the map to be like, what was the max temperature in Brittany in the week of heat wave? And it usually is the only place in the entire country that is like summer acceptable.

- So maybe a good place to add on if it's a hot summer. And finally, any mistakes you think people make when they're planning their trip that you're like, hey, just before we get into any more details, don't do X, Y, Z? - One of the things, I mean, this is a common American trait, I think, is packing like five suitcases and trying to then go a whole number of places and have to drag all this stuff along.

And I think that it does a disservice because accommodations are almost always smaller than what they're used to in the States. And that must be true in other countries like Australia where things are just bigger. And then trying to then take all that stuff and go to too many places in one trip.

I think people are like, I need to maximize my time, I get like two seconds of vacation, I get it. But think smaller, think about ease of travel, think about France is very old, much older than perhaps where you're from and the infrastructure tends to be narrower. And so when you come on your trip with 70 suitcases full of stuff you don't need or won't even remove from the suitcase, it seems like you're just sort of carrying dead weight and that's gonna be something you have to drag to every place you go.

So it's sort of this combo of like overpacking your trip with too many destinations. - I think there's something that even it's taken me as someone who likes to save money, time to process. But there are some countries where you can't buy a lot of things that you might be accustomed to.

France is not one of those countries. Even the simple thing, like we don't buy diapers. There's a lot of things. You didn't bring a jacket 'cause you didn't think it was gonna get that cold. There are lots of places that you can go buy a jacket, other things. So it's not a country where it's hard to augment what you packed.

And so I would say, keep that in mind as you're thinking about how much you actually need to bring. - Also, I have to add this because this is a common thing that comes up. I mean, even from my own father who was like baffled when I was like, you do not need dress shoes.

We're not going to like a two or three Michelin starred restaurant. Every single person who comes to Paris or almost anywhere in this country wears sneakers. I mean, it's like a sneaker culture now. So this idea that you have to have this excessively formal wear to go out to a restaurant means you're packing lots of stuff you don't need because that is just not the way people go out.

- And I will even say, I have been to one, two or three Michelin star restaurant in France. And I didn't bring a jacket and they had jackets to borrow. It didn't fit perfectly, but I met the requirement without having to pack a jacket. And so even that, there is sometimes ways to skirt around that requirement.

- Totally. It's very rare to get turned away at this point because there's usually sort of a solution. But the footwear in particular, since that adds a lot of weight to your suitcase, I just want to be like, go easy on the like fancy footwear. You won't need it.

- All right. You talked about slowing down. It's where you might meet people. How do you describe the culture? I think France has a bit of a reputation in some people's minds for attitude and people. Talk about like what you've experienced. You've lived there 16 years. Like how would you describe the people and the culture in France?

- This is overall a people that are very curious, very cultured, very in tune with the land. I'd say the average person knows probably more about food and where it comes from than other people I've met or that I grew up with. They tend to lean quite intellectual, a little bit philosophical.

Yes, they can have a bit of an attitude. They can have a bit of a cynical outlook on life. And I think part of that has to do with sort of falling from greatness historically. You were the great superpower, you had the kings, then you had the revolution. And then from there, you also had de Gaulle who told you that they were a great people.

And then you sort of slide out of being this sort of superpower and they have a lot of soft power, obviously. I mean, this is the culture that produces and exports a staggering number of high-end products, right? From this incredible artisanal know-how when it comes to fashion and handbag and food products and sort of all sorts of things.

But it's no longer the diplomatic or political power that it used to be. And so I think some of that is like, they have this bit of a chip on their shoulder of like, well, we were historically great and powerful. And I think that's something that comes into play quite a lot, especially as I often analyze like the way the politics worked here and the way people perceive some of their rights and that they should always have them or not have them or whatever.

All the debates that exist on what they should or shouldn't be given without any fight, I think all leads back to sort of their trajectory as a culture, as a country. So they're very proud people. Obviously they have a lot to be proud about. They've contributed a great number of artistic and gastronomic innovations in the world, but also architecturally.

I mean, Paris in particular was a complete innovator when it came to urban planning within Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries. So that narrative or the perspective of Paris and France as sort of this global innovator kind of got lost along the way because other cultures picked up the pace or out-innovated them.

But this is a culture that I think is very proud of all the things that its people, its greatest minds have done for the world. And also it's a culture that I think struggles with certainly some of the ills of its past. Is there any other country that has properly come to terms with their past?

Probably not. But this is like an ongoing part of their existence and you get that sense that they're still grappling with some things. Depending on where you go, that'll be more or less palpable. But I'm sure some of your listeners will have heard or seen videos of the protests that we had since the beginning of the year on the pension reform.

And you can't dissociate something like that happening and the outpouring of passionate critique or resistance. You can't associate that with the way the culture functions overall. I mean, they fight for their rights and that's quite admirable. And if that means that like your route to a museum gets disrupted, like, yeah, that's kind of part of what you come for in a way.

You're seeing a people that are really still fighting for the rights they wanna protect and the rights that they feel that they still deserve. And I think you feel that in a way that you might not feel it to the same extent in other European nations. That's a good background on who they are, but what kind of local experiences when it comes to personal interactions do you think American or foreigner traveling to France can expect?

I think as long as you're willing to engage with locals, they'll engage with you. I mean, if you try to speak a few words in French just to be like, hey, I speak very little French, I speak English, can I talk to you in English? And then you go from there and then you engage them on whatever they're drinking or what they recommend in the neighborhood.

People are warm. People want to have that engagement with people, with travelers. And I think the problem arises when travelers sort of assume that they need to be sort of experience the city alongside of the people, but without actually trying to connect with them. I think that does a disservice to the experience.

And then you're missing something that's sort of integral to the experience. And it could be as simple as like, let's say you're having a wine tasting in Burgundy and you're like, you know what? I'd love to know what you recommend. Where do you go when you're not at work?

Or where do you go when you're with your family? Trying to get a sense of their version of the place and it usually allows them to relax and it gives them the chance to sort of provide for your trip. If they can make a difference in your trip, sort of as a gift to them.

And so I get the sense that there's this love of sharing that you just need to tap into, but it's there. - I never thought about this until just this moment, but there's such a stark difference between asking someone like, where's the best X versus what do you think the best X is?

And it seems like a strategy, maybe anywhere in the world, but especially in France might be to make all of your conversations very personal to the person you're talking to. - You nailed it. That is exactly what it is. I mean, the French wanna feel like you're inquiring them because it's them and not just that they happen to be a body that lives in proximity to some other stuff.

I think that's an accurate way of assessing what they appreciate. Just like they don't expect you to be fluent. You don't need to like get bent out of shape that you can't have a full on conversation with them, but they do really appreciate you trying, whether it's with just the sort of salutations or asking where's the bathroom, like just try.

- Any topics that if you find yourself at a bar having a conversation that you're like, just don't bring these things up, they don't lend well to a conversation in France. - I think talk about wealth is very taboo, especially given the disparities that exist between the ultra wealthy and the far less wealthy.

I would say, stay clear of politics. I mean, if you ask people about the president, you don't live in the country, so you don't have that much of maybe a stake, but it can get kind of heated. And I think then you run the risk of them asking, especially if you're from the US, that will veer right back into sort of the American political system.

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So please consider supporting those who support us. We haven't talked a little bit about broadly people and who it makes sense to travel with. We went with kids. Is France easy for someone with lots of children to travel around? We were only in Paris. Are people warm and welcoming to children being around?

What's your perspective? They absolutely can be warm and welcoming to children. However, if you know that you have children who are like really ill-behaved, just good luck. Because the French are not going to hold back. If you're on a train and your kids are going absolutely ballistic, you'll hear from some people who are like, you're disturbing us, you need to get a hold on your kids.

Again, I can only speak to Americans, but the way the Americans tend to handle those kinds of situations, they'll give you like horrible side eye. They might scoff at you. If they're older, they might definitely try to like parent for you. And I just think there are certain places, given there's a lot going on, especially in a city like Paris, there are a lot of people, there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of people trying to move quickly.

No, we're not quite like New York, but people are still trying to get to where they need to go. And if you're traveling with like a bunch of kids and they're rowdy and you don't have a hold on them, yeah, I think it's going to be stressful for everyone, yourself included.

I also think that in Paris, especially, you don't see a lot of very, very young kids at restaurants. I think parents tend to, here, they take them out to the parks, they go to kid-focused places, and maybe during the day they'll take their kid to a cafe for a snack or a hot chocolate or something.

But in the evening, that tends to be sort of like parents' time. So almost all of my friends who have kids, it's extremely rare that they go out with their children to dinner. So that might mean if you're really looking to have a special meal without the kids, maybe you need to have a plan for a babysitter.

And there are locals and resources where you can figure that out, or maybe you have an older child who can watch the younger child, I don't know. But it's totally possible. All of France can be super fun with kids, but just know that it depends on your children. And I think you need to be honest with yourself about what kind of kids you have.

- I will say we went out to dinner almost exclusively with a six-month-old and a two-year-old, and were greeted warmly. - They must be very well-behaved, too. - I would say as well-behaved as children that age could be, but it went pretty well. So, great. And then, what about food?

Are there culinary experiences that people need to be having on any trip to France, specific ones? - What I would say is that people who come to Paris specifically, because Paris is really the place you could have a whole host of culinary experiences, some of which are traditionally French, and then the rest are a very modern interpretation of what it means to eat in Paris today.

And that might be blended with Southeast Asian food, it might be blended with Mediterranean cuisine, and Mediterranean cuisine could mean from sort of the Levantine parts of the world to the Italian and French coast. So, it really depends on what you're sort of looking for. I would say, if you're gonna go to a place like Paris, if you're gonna go to a place like Marseille, where there are multiple cultural influences, it behooves you to sort of say, I'm gonna have some very classically French bistro experiences, I might have a neo-bistro experience, which is very contemporary, very inventive, very market-driven, and I'm also going to have some of the other kinds of diasporic cuisines that are very present in these places, because they sort of all make up the fabric of the place.

That's the important thing to keep in mind. Obviously, when you go to regions that haven't really expanded their international influences, it makes sense to go with whatever is there. Places where it's very seafood-heavy, and it's all very local, and whatever the local vegetables are, like, do that, have that experience.

But certainly, like you mentioned, which was a great point, if you have limited time, and you're not gonna get to a lot of regions, there's quite a lot of choice in Paris alone to have sort of a smattering of those regional flavors. - That's great. And is there a source someone could use, whether it's an app, a site, to find reliably good ratings or places to eat?

At least my experience, TripAdvisor is not that. What do the locals use? Is it just word of mouth? - It's word of mouth, but also we use, so it's le, and then fooding. I don't know what to call them. They're a little bit more of a niche eater.com, maybe, that's in English as well.

And so if you type in, let's say, obviously Paris is super represented, Marseille, the big cities. But if you even type in, like, I'm going to Megève, which is obviously a much smaller destination, they too will probably have a few recommendations. So I would say a gauge of quality, also kind of vibe.

I think the places that end up in le fooding are both good and also have a certain atmosphere. And I think that to have a little bit more of an insidery pool of suggestions, that's a better idea than getting, like, Joe from whatever city in America who said he liked this place that he found randomly.

That's the difficulty with TripAdvisor and places that sort of just accumulate traveler opinions. I mean, I think if you're looking for where the locals go, you definitely go to a site that is run also by locals and local journalists. I would say Instagram can be helpful as well. And if you're looking, you know, specifically for Paris, like I have my own digital guide to Paris.

I also obviously wrote a book, but the more updated version, it's like a PDF you get and you can use it and you can put things on your Google map. There is a connected Google map. And so there are people who do that, which I think is helpful. If you sort of sense that someone is a trustworthy voice, they might have something already built in for you to either use or purchase or whatever that could give you kind of a whittled down, but sharp curated list of places to eat.

And then if you're obviously a Michelin person, if you're looking for sort of the fine dining, I mean, that remains still like a very acceptable guide to planning your eating. It's just might empty your wallet after a while. - Well, your guide is fantastic. I'm gonna link to that in the show notes.

People can check that out and know where to get it. Couple of logistic things, timing. What time do people eat? Do you need reservations? Any kind of logistical guides for eating? - Yes, so depending on where you go, I mean, obviously it can vary, but for the most part, you're not really gonna be with other people until at least seven, 7.30.

Seven is super early. That's like almost early bird here. There are a few places that do all day service, sort of like the nonstop groceries, but that only gives you a certain type of food, obviously. It's like a small percentage of your options. So don't figure that you're gonna have an ambiance and get to start eating before 7.38.

In other parts of France, there might be second seatings that are at 9 p.m., but for the most part, especially when you get into small towns, it's probably going to be 7.30 and they stop serving at 10 or 10.30. So I think you need to keep that in mind if you need an afternoon snack.

Also, the other thing people sometimes forget is that they don't necessarily serve lunch everywhere through the entire afternoon. So if it opens at 12 or 12.30 for lunch, it may close by 3 p.m. for lunch service. So that's something you definitely need to plan. And in big cities with some pretty trendy or just like generally really beloved establishments, reserving ahead is better.

But if you arrive and you're in a hotel and you speak to your concierge, they can also try to help get you in so that you don't need to completely plan everything in advance. My general recommendation is try to book a few things and then leave the rest up to sort of improv.

In some places, I find that if you see a place that looks crowded and it looks like it's not a bunch of tourists, it's probably a good spot. Don't worry about it. Does that advice apply? That usually bears out. I mean, popular could also mean though that depending on the time of day, it could mean you're in an area with a lot of companies and people are on their lunch break and they go to a certain place because it's convenient, inexpensive, and fine, but like maybe wouldn't be great in the evening.

And that's not something you're necessarily gonna know if you don't really know a city and sort of where the business districts are. But for the most part, yeah. If you don't get the sense that it's like all English-speaking, by the same token, there are a bunch of very excellent restaurants in Paris, for example, where there are, because they've been written about so much, they actually have a largely English-speaking clientele but are also good.

So it depends if you want to have that chef or those owners experience while also being seated with other English speakers. To me, it's like only a thing on occasion I'll do because I'm really into trying or supporting that chef or restaurant owner, but I do find it a bit jarring to be in a place where like potentially maybe my husband and I are the only ones speaking French.

So in general, I personally, when I travel, try to avoid those scenarios because I'm never gonna really do the research to find out, but like, is it really worth me going? Like, that's already a bit off-putting. - Okay, you mentioned Paris. Let's dive in 'cause I wanna make sure we get to some details.

You know Paris incredibly well. You've written books about Paris in multiple languages. It's impressive. Let's talk about someone planning there. You said, you know, at least three or four, could be a week, days in Paris. - Well, in terms of staying, I think the first question to ask is what neighborhood do you really wanna be planted in?

Because that can determine the rest of your itinerary essentially. I mean, no, nothing is really that far to get to. And if you're gonna use public transport, you could be in the 11th arrondissement where I live and still go to the Fondation Louis Vuitton, which is on the Western extremities of the city.

So it's not impossible, but I think you need to know sort of what you're gonna do the most of. Are you gonna be going to a lot of museums? Are you really keen on being near the river? That would dictate sort of what neighborhoods I would recommend to you.

And once you've narrowed down what neighborhood you wanna be in, and then you can go into sort of, okay, do you want an apartment? Airbnbs are getting way more expensive. At this point, some people think that hotels are back to being sort of the greatest value, and you can also get a lot of boutique hotels, which are really charming, really interesting, great views, great services, and put you sort of in the heart of the action.

I know a lot of people who stay in the Saint-Germain area because it's close to a lot of things. It's near the river. It's very charming. It's very picturesque. But for the best food experiences, it's not there. So I think the person who's planning needs to think like, okay, am I the food traveler who really just wants to go to all the best restaurants?

In which case, there's a huge concentration of them in Eastern Paris. Maybe it's best I stay sort of right bank over by Bestie or near Oberkampf or in the Marais, at least, because at least that is sort of getting you closer. If that's not your thing and you really are like, I want to go antique shopping and go to museums and be in the pure center of the city, then I'd say, yeah, you could stay in the first, you could stay in the sixth, you could stay in the fifth, but it might not be the most dynamic in the evening.

Generally, I think that the seventh is one of the more boring places to stay. It's very sleepy, it's very residential, so yes, that's closer to the Eiffel Tower, but you don't need to seat in your backyard to have a wonderful experience. - I just realized we both have been to Paris, you've lived there 16 years, I've been there a bunch.

For anyone who doesn't know, Paris is structured- - Like a snail, it's a snail. - 20 arrondissements. - Yes, exactly. - And they kind of circle around from the center, so one being dead center going clockwise around to 20. So just if you hear references to the seventh and the fifth, you could just search Paris map and you'll see all of these numbers highlighting the regions.

- Yes, it's true. I often forget that this is not the most common knowledge. I take that for granted, so good thing you reminded people. At the end of the day, if you're like, "I struggled to find a place and this is what I could find "and it was in the 15th arrondissement," you'll be fine and you'll probably have a really lovely experience, but it's not ideal, right?

So there are just neighborhoods where you're gonna get the sense that you're in the heart of things, that you're close to things, that it could be practical given the type of trip you want to have. - Is there a place that you'd put if you're like, "I wanna feel like I'm staying somewhere "where I'm surrounded by locals, "I'm having a local experience, "I'm close enough to things, "but I'm okay trekking to the sites, "I'm okay trekking to the best restaurants, "but I just kinda want a fun, interesting neighborhood "with good cafe, I can go relax, "but just feel like I'm not in the mix of it." Is there a place you'd throw out?

- Yeah, I would say my part of town. It's funny 'cause we tend to think of things in terms of their metro neighborhoods, so like Charon, where there's a lot of good food. For those listening who have been here and who might know Paris, it's not far from the restaurant Septime, which is sort of like now totally beloved.

You could stay in Belleville, which is hugely dynamic and super diverse and super interesting. And that gets you close to a park that I really love called the Butte Chaumont. So either in Belleville or further up into the 19th arrondissement would be wonderful and you could easily get on the metro and get right back in the center of things.

And then on the flip side, if you want sort of a very calm and quiet experience, then yeah, I would say the 5th and 6th deeper in, sort of closer to like Luxembourg Gardens is probably gonna be more of a tranquil, serene, relaxing kind of experience that isn't necessarily right in the middle, but will be lovely.

- Okay, and just for everyone's awareness, I don't wanna go in and say, "Here are the 50 sites." Like we don't need to list off all the tourist destinations that everyone can find in any guide or anything like that. But I would love to tap on, "What are a few things?" Because like you said, we don't wanna plan your whole trip for you.

We wanna just give you some inspiration. Are there a few things in Paris that you think aren't the obvious attractions or activities that someone should put on their list to check out? Maybe they're not good for everyone, but for some people, worth sharing. - Yeah, people who are overwhelmed by the Louvre, especially, which I know I am, there are plenty of smaller museums.

This is sort of the city of smaller museums and also what you would call a house museum. So the former private home of a very prolific writer, artist. And there are several that I think are worth visiting. The Musée de Montmartre, which is in the 18th. So if you're gonna go up toward the Sacré-Cœur Cathedral or Basilica in that neighborhood, so the 18th Arrondissement, that's a fantastic, small, really intimate museum.

And I believe they have a nice inner garden. You also have the Gustave Moreau Museum. And similarly, it's so beautiful. It's quite small, really inexpensive entry fee, and is focused on, it was the former home of the artist Gustave Moreau. And so all of it is sort of not recreated, but sort of frozen in time as though it's how he left it.

And his works are displayed and there's this really iconic spiral staircase that's really beautiful. And that's a much smaller, less overwhelming experience. And then for something bigger, but still completely worth visiting is the Carnavalet Museum, which is in the Marais. And it's the city of Paris museum, essentially. And so you have all of the works, all of the exhibits are related to the history of Paris.

And that is just sort of a non-negotiable for me, but it often doesn't make the list for people when they come and they're doing the Louvre, the Musée d'Orsay, and some of the other big classics. And then finally, I would say, if you're really into contemporary art, you could go the gallery route, which is a little bit more intimidating, and I think a little bit less sort of easy to navigate, or you could go to the Pinot Collection, which is one of France's billionaires who has a private institution, but it's in a really spectacular building, quite in the center of city, not far from the river.

That's a very unique experience. - Because we had kids, skipped out on all of the art. So I have nothing to add here, but the Cité des Sciences Museum. - Oh, for kids, yeah, that's great. - Absolutely. I wish our kids' nap schedule allowed us to be there longer, but I will give it a plug there.

It might be the best kids' science museum I've ever been to, which I can't say I've been to a lot, but it was awesome. The park around it was awesome, easy to get to. So that's my one plug. - That's a good plug. And also I would say another spot that's also very good for adults and kids is the, it's called the Musée de la Chasse et la Nature.

It's the nature and hunting museum, which sounds like it could be a little bit grim, but actually it's super well done. It's beautiful. And for kids who are like interested in seeing animals and paintings of animals in the natural environment, that's a good choice. Or the Natural History Museum, which is in the Jardin des Plantes, which is one of the gardens.

And there you'll have like dinosaur bones and fossils and all sorts of stuff that's like really good for kids. - Any other kind of like unique, weird tour kind of stuff, whether it's like at a market, not the museums that we're kind of typically told about, but kind of cool other experiences?

- I do think the Catacombs is a really unique experience. You really have to be someone who's not afraid of closed quarters and closed spaces. You also sort of have to plan ahead because I know that if you go too late in the afternoon, you may hit a point where they're not actually letting anyone in anymore.

And so you've just sort of waited in line. It's very cool though. I mean, I think that's something you're not gonna get in a whole lot of other cities. And then beyond that, I think there's some sort of unusual tours you can get on that are taking you through a specific history.

So it might be like Paris under the Occupation or something like the Women of Paris tour. There are things that are sort of not necessarily super unusual, but just not your general overview kind of experiences that are worth looking into. - Where do these good experiences exist? Is Airbnb Experiences a place to find them?

Is there a better local site? Is there a blog that talks about things? - No, that's a very good question. I would say Airbnb Experiences, I think are only gonna get you so far. They might be okay, but I for one think the problem is that people don't spend a lot on those.

And so you sort of get what you pay for. If you're really into wine tastings, for example, there are certain specialists, for example, certain spaces. There's the Cave du Louvre, there's Cave Woman Wines, and she runs different events in her wine shop. You sort of have to be specific when you're looking.

But if you're looking for a service that has multiple types of tours or experiences, I think it's good to look at, for example, Context Travel, which is a company that runs experiences and tours in a variety of different cities in the world and have very good docents and very good themes.

And I think in general, the quality of the experience is very high. In Paris specifically, you also have Paris by Mouth, which are obviously, as the name suggests, food-focused tours. And then there are a bunch of independent, smaller run kind of experiences in food. I mean, food is really the area where we're like bursting at the seams with options.

But I would say either you get recommendations from let's say like a travel planner who has connections with certain key guides, or I, for one, do a couple of tours upon request that are based on my books, but I don't do this full time. So it's sort of like an upon request thing.

If you're looking for something that you can sort of jump on last minute, you need to sort of find bigger companies. Get Your Guide also has some that I think are gonna be a little bit more qualitative than an Airbnb experience. - Okay. Food keeps coming up as a theme.

So I'll just ask you to throw out any places you love that people should just check out. I know there's an unlimited number of places. You haven't been to them all, but I bet you have some places where you're like, here's some spots that I'd recommend eating at. And I know people love getting the kind of local recommendation.

- So yeah, I'll give you a couple. Actually in the seventh arrondissement, which I know I kind of disparaged earlier, but like the key place is La Migeon, and that is just truly excellent consistently. The chef owner has been doing it for nearly 20 years. It has an incredible vibe.

The portions are large. It's excellent, excellent, excellent food. There's a bit of a Southwestern French inflection, just really spectacular. Definitely need to book ahead. The other experience I would say is going into the Marché des Enfants Rouges, which is the oldest covered market in Paris and hitting up some of those stands.

But if you want something that's like open all day nonstop, there's a stand in particular in the market called Les Enfants du Marché, and it's seafood, good meats, excellent natural wine. There's a Japanese chef, but it's all French product. It's an incredible vibe. There's a great playlist, and they really run from like noon until the market closes.

So if you stumble in at 4 p.m., you know you can at least have something to eat, and it may be the only stand open, but it'll be super fun. You know, there's like kind of a young, really exciting vibe there. Quality of the food is just spectacular. And there is an excellent park for children right outside, like one or two blocks away, which we went to.

But my advice to parents in the parks, don't be alarmed if the park closes very promptly and very quickly. In the U.S., it's kind of like at night, people leave. In France, I've had, there was a whistle, and at the exact moment the park closed, within maybe one to two minutes, the entire park had vacated, the doors had been locked, and everyone was gone.

And I was caught off guard thinking, well, the sun's still out, we could just keep playing. It was like, when the park closes, you leave. But that park is right next to that market, and was excellent. - Yeah, the Carreau du Temple, there's like a big cultural center over there too.

So that's a great area to walk around in general. But yeah, I think it's kind of like the guards are like, my shift is over, I want to go home. Get out of the park. I would say also, Semilla is a great place in Saint-Germain. I'm trying to give you some options here geographically.

It's a great sort of modern bistro that's really lovely. And then, oh boy, there's like coffee shops everywhere, like good quality coffee shops. If that's something that's important to you, it's something that's important to me. You have to make sure you have the list, because if you go into any old corner cafe, you'll probably have a really disgusting cup of coffee.

- Is that list on your guide? - No, it's a separate guide I am currently working on, but a lot of it is also on my Instagram page, for example. And in my first book, there's a whole chapter on quality coffee and the difference between cafe culture and coffee culture.

So if you want to sort of get the foundation for why it's historically been bad, that gives you a nice primer. But yeah, I think the market is a really great place because also it'll give you lots of options. That's the covered market. And then there are the pop-up markets that are several times a week in different neighborhoods.

Definitely look into that. I mean, you can even Google open air food markets in Paris. It's a great place to go get a bunch of ingredients and cheeses and go to a park and have a picnic. - Love that. What about people that are looking for some baked goods?

Any suggestions for a couple of bakeries? - I literally am physically incapable of giving just a couple. Like it's just tremendous. I mean, if there's one that I can recommend that has several locations that might be easy for people, Pierre Hermé is the star. He's been called the Picasso of pastry.

And so obviously he has like multiple locations. His stuff is incredible. But you know, I would also say some of the neighborhood bakeries are really where the huge talent is these days. And one of my favorites is Utopie. I mean, we say Utopie, but it's spelled like Utopia, but with an E at the end.

- Is it near Open Conf? I can't remember the name of the sub. - Yes, that's exactly near where it is. - We tried to go there. It was like, the line was ridiculous. - I mean, that'll tell you something. If you go on a Sunday morning, forget it.

You're going to be waiting in a line, but the pastries are excellent. I would say Mamiche is another one. They have a location in the 10th and one in the 9th arrondissement, and it's really excellent. And then for the rest, I mean, you just got to connect with me and get my list.

- Definitely connect with Lindsay. Getting around. Subway, I found easy. There's no real need to do anything else. I don't think we ever took a taxi or an Uber or anything at all. We took the train from the airport. Any other things people should think about when it comes to transportation?

- Be mindful of the e-scooters. They will be phased out. However, at the end of August, because the city voted to get rid of them, they were a bit of a problem, just like the lack of enforcement of rules is a problem. But anyway, that's for another conversation. So yeah, I would say while they're still sort of operating, you need to be mindful when you're walking around because they zip and come out of nowhere.

But you really can either walk everywhere or take the Metro. And rarely do I encounter people who are like, I love the bus. I'm going to try to figure out the bus. The bus is like not very efficient only because there's a lot of construction in the city. And so even though they have their own lane, they're often delayed and they don't run as frequently as the Metro.

So you're going to spend a lot more time waiting around, but walk Metro. And if you're really courageous, you can take one of the bikes, the city bike share program or the like Uber jump things. They're sort of all over the place, but there's really very little need to take a cab unless you're like stumbling home drunk after a great meal.

But even then the Metro is probably still operating. - We didn't talk actually about drinking and nightlife. What's the vibe like for bars after dinner, cocktails, that kind of stuff. - Cocktails are still very much a fixture of the dining and nightlife landscape. I would say wine bars also are sort of treated almost as destinations like cocktail bars, especially if you're into certain types of wine, like natural wine or organic wine.

There's like a slew of those kinds of bars and even hotel bars. I mean, they definitely are still the more expensive type of experience, but there are some that are still very iconic, whether it's the Hemingway bar at the Ritz or the Ambassador in the Criant Hotel at Place de la Concorde.

I mean, these are places that are just so sumptuous in terms of their interiors that like, if you really want that vibe and you don't mind spending maybe 25 euros on a cocktail, like go there. Otherwise there's really no need to spend a whole lot of money. And also if you're into beer, there are some craft beer bars too.

We have all of the things. You can stay out late, but not too late 'cause all these places close, I think around one o'clock. - You mentioned Le Fooding, but where would you find a good cocktail bar? Google Maps ratings, I find, have become more and more reliable, but is that a source or what would you do?

- Google ratings, but actually Le Fooding also lists cocktail bars. So you've got both restaurants and cocktails and then there are some specialists. There's Forrest Collins who has a website and blog. Her nickname is 52 Martinis, but her podcast has a different name. But essentially if you Google 52 Martinis and Paris cocktails, you'll sort of get her expert list and she sort of made that her niche here.

But for a more general view, Le Fooding has a great list. - Okay. And then one thing that I've done in Paris and all of France is, you can also get a bottle of wine, get some cheese, just sit in a park. So what would you do to craft just like a nice one of those experiences that maybe doesn't need a restaurant?

- That's a great option that honestly I do on the regular. As you and I were talking about when we first jumped on the chat, I was commenting on how it is almost 7.30 here and it's still bright and light. And in the heart of summer, you can go to the Canal Saint Martin or by the river and you'll have light until well after 10 p.m.

So that makes it perfect for a picnic. But I would say avoid the like student thing, which is going to like the supermarket and buying a supermarket bottle of wine. Like go to a wine cellar or a wine shop, make it a special thing, figure out what region or what kind of wine you want to drink, red, white, orange, sparkling, whatever.

Figure out the region and then maybe ask the wine expert what they recommend pairing with it, what kinds of cheeses, then go to the cheese monger. I mean, so yeah, you can't do this too late at night because obviously the shops close. But if you plan for it, you can really get some tremendous products and then sit outside and then see other people, mostly locals doing the same thing.

- Love that. It actually reminded me, I had a good friend who gave me a couple of recommendations from his recent trip. He said on the cheese side, fromagerie Laurent Dubois is like the place. Couple other random ones he suggested were the Paris Philharmonic or Philharmonique. He had a wonderful experience to go out.

These are all a bit across the board, but I was like, it just made me think to look it up. And the other is there's a street artist named Invader, which has these great space invader things. And there is a cool app called Flash Invaders where you can kind of collect all of them all over.

They're all over France, like thousands and thousands of these kind of space invader piece of art just in Paris. And he said, not only was it fun for him, but it was super fun for his kids to have a thing to like go around Paris and collect and earn some points.

And it kind of made the experience of wandering around the city, which might often make children kind of bored. It got them very excited. And so those were his three tips. - It keeps them very engaged, but also the adults. My husband does Flash, does the app and plays the game.

And I have several friends that do this. And then those with kids definitely do it with their kids. And so it's sort of like fun for everyone. And the incentive is just to like gain a lot of points and then beat each other or just be ranked higher than one another.

What's interesting about it is in places like Versailles or Fontainebleau, which have royal heritage, the mosaic tiles in the invaders themselves or the whatever they're called are very clever. I mean, they're related to the place in many instances, especially in like smaller towns. So you'll have like, I think there's one of Napoleon somewhere.

So it does create also sort of like semi-educational, but also it's fun. - That's one thing where I was like, "Gang, I really missed out on that on my trip." He had one more recommendation, which is kind of in line with what you just mentioned with Versailles, which is we talked about the broader regions of France.

We talked about Paris. If someone's in Paris and they're looking to go somewhere, but not too far, are there some kind of day trips or maybe overnight trips that you'd say someone should tack on? And maybe that's how we'll leave people today. - Yeah, I mean, Versailles is definitely the common one, but it's very overwhelming.

And depending on when you go, it might be literally like everyone and their mother and their grandmother is there. And I know it feels very dense and overwhelming, but Fontainebleau is the other one that I would recommend because you get the chateau, you get the connection to, you know, it used to be the hunting lodge.

I mean, lodge is a small word for what it actually is, which is like essentially a palace, but it's where the kings would all go to when they were hunting and sort of a getaway. And it's attached to this really lovely city, a town called Fontainebleau, and you can have a meal, you can spend the night, you can go to see the chateau.

And then if you're an outdoorsy person, you can go to the forest, which is walking distance or a quick ride. So it's called the Fontainebleau Forest, and it is an internationally renowned destination for bouldering. So like I said, my husband's a boulderer and rock climber. This has been ever since I've known him, the place he goes almost every weekend, but you come across people who just want to hike.

You can go walk around and pick a spot and then picnic. It really is a wonderful outdoor place. So I would say for a day trip or an overnight, think about Fontainebleau. - Awesome. The other one my friend suggested was Puy de Fou, this amusement park that he enjoyed as an adult and thought was super interesting, children enjoyed and was like, for him, it was the day trip highlight of the entire trip.

And his kids thought it was the most amazing thing they've ever done. And he's like, and I loved it too. I don't know if you've been there. - And I also don't have kids. It's not like my first instinct to go to a place like that, but that's very good to know.

And I would say that's a much better idea than going to Disney, which is like very underwhelming when or if you've experienced Disney in the U.S. So skip Disney. - But Puy de Fou, I've looked at the website and there's like people jumping and fire. And he described it as like a mix of a show and a carnival and a Renaissance fair, but with excellent food, which just kind of goes back to France is not gonna have their own French amusement park with bad food.

He just had wonderful things to say about it. So Ethan, thank you for that tip and others. And then last thing, as people are getting around, we said Metro in Paris, is it train? Is it flights? If people go back to the beginning of this and think, ah, I'm gonna add one or two regions.

I'm gonna do a day trip to Fontainebleau. Is it all train? Or how do you think people should think logistically about getting around? - I think if you're gonna go somewhere and then be trying to see a lot of things in another region, you can get there by train, most likely.

To be honest, you could do everything by train. It just might take you a while. So places that are not on the high speed rail line, you can still access by train. So imagine, let's say you're gonna spend a whole week in Normandy, for example. I would say you could get there by train, but then you wanna be able to pick up a car.

And so that might not make a lot of sense given where car rental spots are. So from a place like Paris, you could rent a car and drive to Normandy or drive to some of these places if you plan on trying to discover a lot of things. The Loire Valley is a place where you could actually do like a bike trip and discover the region entirely by bike because they have something like, I don't know if it's like 800 miles of bike paths in the entire region.

So it's sort of set up for that kind of experience. And if you're going in to Provence and you're not gonna be staying in cities, and you're gonna be going into villages and trying to drive around and see as much as you can see, you will need a car.

But there, I'd say you could take a train from Paris and then rent a car when you get down there near the train stations, like Avignon, for example, or Aix-en-Provence or Marseille, and you can rent a car and then go from there. The places where people tend to fly simply because it can be faster or more direct is to like to Nice, to Biarritz and the Southwestern coast.

But there are very few places. If you're not in any rush and you like a long train ride, use the train system. - Amazing. This has been so awesome. So I feel like we didn't even come close to tapping all of your knowledge, but you share a lot on social.

You have a digital restaurant guide. We're gonna link to it in the show notes. You've even written books. So there's a lot of stuff you've done, but where can people find all of it and can they reach out and ask questions? - Absolutely. So I think the easiest is probably just to find me at lindsaytremuta.com because then you can find my socials, you can find my newsletter signup, you can find my podcast signup, you can find all the things.

You can find me from there and I'd be happy to chat. - That's awesome. Any parting advice for someone thinking about a trip to France before we sign off? - The only thing I would say is do a little bit of research. Don't just come and be like, I'm gonna wing everything because I think that's where people get disappointed, especially when it comes with food.

Do a little bit of planning and then leave the rest up to sort of whatever you feel like doing, whatever the mood leads you to choose. But there is a minimum amount of planning that's really necessary to ensure you'll have the experience you deserve to have. - I look forward to doing that planning for the next trip.

Thank you so much for being here. - Thanks, Chris. - Wow, we covered a lot and I am already excited for another trip to France. But before we wrap, I just briefly wanted to talk about using your miles and points for your next trip and maybe a little bit about the different ways to get there and some deals to be had.

So when it comes to flights from North America, almost all of them are gonna be going to Paris, either Charles de Gaulle or Orly, they're two different airports. There are in the summer, a few flights to Nice, notably on Delta from Atlanta and JFK, on United from Newark, on La Compagnie, the all business class airline from Newark, and then from Montreal on Air Canada and Air Transat, which is actually an airline I have never heard of.

There's also a strange flight on Fiji Air to Lourdes, which I think is just because they wanna connect. There must be some massive population of people that want to go to Fiji, so they connect all the way there. As for getting to Paris, because that's probably where anyone's France trip is going to start, especially if you're not traveling in the summer to Nice, there are a ton, a ton of options.

You can fly from 22 different cities in the States, you can fly from five cities in Canada, and I didn't quite sum it entirely up, but there are a ton of airlines. So Air France is probably the largest of all of the options, and then American, Delta, and United all fly to Paris.

Then a few other ones that I'll just flag, Air Tahiti Nui flies from Seattle and Los Angeles, connecting on to flights in Papiete, and then JetBlue flies from JFK to Paris. North Atlantic Airways also flies from JFK to Paris, and La Compagnie flies from Newark, which is an all-business class airline.

And then there's two others that fly to Orly, which is the smaller airport in Paris. One is Corsair, I think it is, flies from Montreal, but looks like it's only in the summer. And then another one, if you want a good deal, I've actually flown them to Papiete in French Polynesia, is French B, which connects from SFO, LAX, Newark and Miami, all the way to Paris, definitely a great option to save money.

The planes were new, we had a great experience. It's a little bit of a discount airline, but I thought it was a good flight, so definitely would recommend that. As for costs, when I just generally look right now, from the West Coast, it looks like in coach, you can get down to as low as $700 or $800 round trip.

On the East Coast, $400 to $500. The best deals are gonna be on French B in coach. Then when it comes to business class, from the West Coast, $3,500 and up, on pretty much all the major airlines. And from the East Coast, about $2,400 and up, with the best deals being on JetBlue and La Compagnie.

So let's talk briefly about miles and points though, because I think that is where there's some real magic, and I love to highlight how far your points can take you. So I did a handful of searches just to get a good sense of this. And looking at economy, there's a wide range of prices you can get.

So this is why I think it's really important to consider having flexible points, because if you just had points in a certain carrier, you're not gonna get the best deal. For example, the absolute best deal right now to get to France in coach, you can do it on Air France for 15,000 points.

But because there's a 20% transfer bonus, if you transfer from Capital One to Air France, it's actually only 12,500 points in economy. So definitely the best deal. And one I'll highlight is that Air France is notorious for not sharing all of their availability to partners, and Delta is notorious for charging egregious amounts of points for flights.

So despite that on one single day, you could find a flight from Toronto to Paris for 15,000 miles on Air France, on Delta, the cheapest flight on that day was 105,000 miles. So just a great example of why having transferable points can matter. In this case, if you only had Delta points, it would cost you seven times as many points for that single flight.

But that's not the only option. Virgin Atlantic had options for 15 to 22,000 points in coach, Air Canada for 33 to 40,000 points, but Avianca coming in at 25.5,000 points. So just another example on the Star Alliance side, which is Air Canada, United, Avianca, sometimes booking with different carriers can get you a much better deal.

So that exact same flight that was 30 to 40,000 points on Air Canada, and probably even more on United, was only 25.5,000 on Avianca using their life miles, which you can also transfer to from certain programs. Looking at premium economy, not too many airlines offer it, but I did find a few options.

Air France, about 30,000 points, Air Canada, 48,000 points, but there's actually a chase transfer bonus to Air Canada right now. So you could drop 48,000 to 40, and there's that same capital one transfer to Air France for 20% more points. So that 30,000 could be 25,000. So some great transfer point opportunities right now.

But I know a lot of people are trying to look to get their points to take them in business class. So I looked at a few flights, both from Chicago and Los Angeles, surprisingly a lot more business class availability than I was expecting. And it really, again, depends where you fly from.

So on the Star Alliance side, for the same flight, United was 80,000 points, Aeroplan was 70,000, but with that transfer bonus, it dropped to 59. And then Avianca with no transfer bonus was 63,000. So I'm definitely a big fan of transferring your points to the Avianca Life Miles program, especially for Europe flights.

The deals are so great. You can transfer to them from Citi, Capital One, and Membership Rewards. Obviously, if you only have chase points, you can go to Air Canada, especially with that transfer bonus, it makes it the best deal. For Air France, it was about 80,000 points to get to Europe in business class when you found the availability.

With 20% bonus right now, you can get it for about 67,000. And I should say I'm a big fan of the Air France KLM Flying Blue program, especially for these long haul premium cabin redemptions. They have really good award pricing for business class. The program also has access to a lot more Air France and KLM space than other programs do.

So they make it really easy. But also, every month, they have this promo rewards offer, and they do 20 to 50% discounts on select awards. And so I definitely think every time that comes out, take a look and you might find some amazing deals. And then one of the best options of all was using American miles.

If you have American miles, or if you have built points that can transfer there, 57.5,000 points for business class. The only thing to be aware of is if you're doing that flight and it's on an American flight, the taxes are significantly lower than if you're doing that flight and it's on a British Airways flight.

As much as I love British Airways and they have great planes and service and lounges, when you're on British Airways crossing the Atlantic Ocean, they charge an egregious amount of taxes and fees, sometimes as much as $800, $900 each way. So definitely make sure that if you're looking on One World Flights, booking through something like American, try to look for flights that are not on British Airways 'cause you're gonna save a lot of money on taxes.

So that's flights. Feel free to take a listen to the end of the episode we did on Italy. There's a little bit of overlap, so there might be some extra content about flights to Europe, but let's move on to hotels. There are an incredibly large number of options, over 200 hotels that you can book with either Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott, or IHG points, really so many options.

So I won't go deep into all of them because at the end of the day, it really comes down to availability, but I will highlight a few amazing redemptions I saw just doing some quick searching. And again, I was doing all of this searching using Aways, A-W-A-Y-Z. It's a live cash and award pricer that really makes travel planning easy, that helps you get a great deal on hotels.

It factors in things like fifth night free. It shows you the prices in points and dollars. And one of the cool things is you can filter by either which chain you wanna look at, or you can filter by which points you have, whether they're Amex or Chase, or even specific hotel points, or whether you're even trying to use a free night certificate.

And as an All The Hacks listener, you get $10 off the premium annual plan every single year from now into the future. And that's at allthehacks.com/aways, A-W-A-Y-Z. They've launched a couple new things recently that I figure I'll share quickly. One, they now have email award availability alerts. So you can set alerts.

Hey, when this hotel opens up, let me know. Then they also changed their pricing such that they have a free plan that lets you do a handful of searches early on just to get a feel for the product. They have a trip pass if you're just planning a trip and wanna dive in.

And then again, if you're gonna be using this a lot like I am, they have an annual premium plan that you can get $10 off. So I'll start with Hyatt. They've got 47 hotels in France. I'll start with a couple in Paris. The Park Hyatt is absolutely amazing. Talk about a deal.

I found it for 40,000 points a night available for a room that would otherwise be $2,065. That means you're getting 5 cents per point, which is an excellent redemption. Obviously, if you're booking in the Chase portal, you'd be getting at most 1 1/2 cents. So great use of points.

And then also the Hotel de Louvre was 30,000 points, so a little less expensive, and $1,026 a night. So not quite the same value, but less points. Still getting almost 3 1/2 cents per point. A bunch of other Hyatt options, especially some of these cool SLH, small luxury hotel properties they have.

Definitely worth taking a look. And if you have Chase or BuiltPoints, you can easily transfer to Hyatt. On Hilton, Hilton has 27 hotels in France, at least according to their website. There are a ton, but I'll highlight two really cool ones. One is the Waldorf Astoria in Versailles. Really cool property, looks awesome.

I've never stayed there, but after doing a little bit of research, it seems like it would be an awesome time, especially if you don't wanna just make it a day trip. Again, Hilton points are not the easiest to get a ton of value out of, but if you have those free night certificates, they can be a great use.

This hotel was 80,000 points on Hilton, but the cash rate was $500. Even better deal was the Maison Astor in Paris. It's a curio collection hotel. It's 64,000 points a night on the nights I looked for a cash rate of $620, which means you're almost getting a cent per point, which I think the average valuation for Hilton points is close to half a cent.

So that's a pretty good deal there as well. I can't remember if I was factoring in fifth night free for both of these stays, but if I wasn't, obviously that would go down if you booked a five night stay at either. Not sure you'd wanna spend five nights down at Versailles, but maybe you would, but definitely in Paris, no problem.

On the Marriott front, there's 69 Marriott hotels across France. For some reason it came up with a higher number, but it was showing ones in Geneva. I think 69 is the right number, but I'm not gonna bet on it. Two properties that I thought looked really great that I would check out, especially for the deals.

The Prince de Galles is a luxury hotel collection in Paris, and I found it for 119,500 points a night. So just shy of 120,000 points, but the cash rate was almost $2,000. So this would be a way to get more than 1 1/2 cent per point value for Marriott, which is very rare.

Also fifth night free on Marriott if you wanna save a little. But if you're not looking to spend 120,000 Marriott points per night, the Renaissance Paris near the Eiffel Tower is only 52,000 points a night, and the cash rate on that hotel is about $543. So you're still getting almost one cent per point there.

Good use for Marriott points. Still not a good enough use that I would be transferring points to Marriott, or Hilton for that matter, unless I was just shy of a redemption and transferring those points got me to the redemption. And the same is also true of IHG. I just haven't found deals that make it worth transferring points from Chase, Capua, and Amex to the hotel chains, except for Hyatt.

Man, Hyatt getting 3 1/2 to five cents per point is a really, really killer deal. So I will transfer Chase points to Hyatt for redemptions all the time. On the rest, I don't not like using those points. I have a Marriott card, I have a Hilton card, and I'm earning points when I stay at those hotels and using them for those properties.

I'm just not transferring the points there from other credit card programs. On the IHG front, I didn't find any amazing deals, but a couple hotels worth looking at. The Hotel Indigo and the Kempton Saint Honoré looked wonderful, but another property that wasn't as high on the luxury tier was the Crown Plaza in Paris at République, which I will just flag was where we stayed and an incredible part of town.

So much great food, so walkable. So if I had IHG points, I found that for 44,000 points a night, definitely something I'd consider using. Speaking of Kempton, the Kempton chain, which is a part of IHG, has this interesting thing where they create passwords. And if you use the password when you check in, which always feels a little bit strange, you get some kind of perks, whether it's free parking, free breakfast, free drinks, free snacks.

And so the password, at least until September 3rd, is no shade. So if you're checking in to a Kempton hotel, don't forget to say no shade at check-in to get yourself some perks, at least through September. After that, you might wanna Google around and see if you can find the new password at the time.

Finally, there is another chain I'll mention, two of them actually, the Choice Hotel chain. They've got 20 hotels in France. They're all quality hotel, comfort hotel, or comfort suites. Definitely nothing fancy and luxurious, but definitely good options if you have choice points. Still not sure I would transfer. And then the Accor chain has a massive coverage, all of Europe, tons of hotels.

But the way their points program works is you just get a fixed 2.2 cents of value per point. If you already have Accor points, great. If you're staying at Accor properties, absolutely I would be making sure you're earning points. But when you look to transfer from Capital One, it's two Capital One points for every one point at Accor.

So to get a point, you're gonna need to give up two. And so you're really just getting about that same one cent per value. Technically, it's 1.1 cents, but I think your points can go a lot further than that. So I wouldn't look at Choice or Accor, really any of these chains except Hyatt, as the best options for transferring points to, unless you find really a diamond in the rough redemption, which is possible.

But if you have points in those programs, there are a lot of great options, and hopefully you can find something really great. Just to wrap for a quick fun thing, we're talking about France. If you heard last week's episode, Amy and I are trying to figure out where to go on this trip we have.

We did finally pull the trigger on French Polynesia, so we will get to practice some French. We technically, I guess, legally are going to a domiciled part of France. So I guess that'll qualify for mentioning in this episode. But we haven't actually figured out the hotel situation yet, which we leave in three days.

So hopefully by the next time I talk about that trip, I will let you know what we ended up doing, because not having a hotel is just not an option. So I'm sure it'll be amazing, but really cutting it to the wire here, which I think I kind of enjoy.

And as I get older, I'm kind of realizing is not as enjoyable as it used to be. But thank you so much for listening this far. I hope you're inspired for your next trip to France. I know I am, and I will see you next week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)