Everyday Educator - Navigating the Math Map
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.440 | - Welcome friends to this episode
00:00:04.760 | of the "Everyday Educator" podcast.
00:00:07.400 | I'm your host, Lisa Bailey,
00:00:09.240 | and I'm excited to spend some time with you today
00:00:12.200 | as we encourage one another, learn together,
00:00:16.000 | and ponder the delights and challenges
00:00:18.980 | that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime.
00:00:22.400 | Whether you're just considering
00:00:24.640 | this homeschooling possibility,
00:00:26.720 | or deep into the daily delight of family learning,
00:00:31.120 | I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.
00:00:34.720 | But don't forget,
00:00:36.080 | although this online community is awesome,
00:00:39.500 | you'll find even closer support in a local CC community.
00:00:44.500 | So, go to classicalconversations.com
00:00:49.280 | and find a community near you today.
00:00:54.080 | Well, listeners, I'm excited to welcome you to this episode
00:00:57.560 | of the "Everyday Educator" podcast,
00:00:59.800 | and I'm excited to introduce you to my friend, Barbara Harrell.
00:01:04.240 | Barbara is gonna talk to us,
00:01:06.540 | or help us explore the math map.
00:01:10.000 | Navigating the math map is exciting and scary
00:01:15.000 | and beautiful and confounding.
00:01:22.180 | It's all of the things.
00:01:23.480 | And so, Babs is gonna help us know what we need to know
00:01:28.160 | about embarking on this new adventure
00:01:32.080 | to learn math more classically.
00:01:35.640 | Babs, thank you so much for being with me today.
00:01:38.880 | - Absolutely, I'm honored.
00:01:40.540 | I'm honored to be here.
00:01:41.840 | - So, how long have you been homeschooling, Babs?
00:01:45.680 | - So, I was just telling somebody forever
00:01:49.060 | because my oldest, he just graduated last year,
00:01:53.800 | and we started when he was five, and we started with CC.
00:01:56.960 | So, we went to a, it was like a curriculum fair.
00:02:01.480 | And this was when a lot of stuff had changed,
00:02:05.600 | has changed over the years.
00:02:06.600 | But when we first started,
00:02:08.900 | the biggest thing that drew me was
00:02:11.240 | she was talking about history and how they did this timeline
00:02:14.960 | and how it included not just history
00:02:17.720 | that we probably know all about,
00:02:19.240 | but it also included biblical history.
00:02:21.760 | And honestly, I wanted to sign up for myself
00:02:25.280 | 'cause I didn't know, right?
00:02:27.080 | I was always separating the two.
00:02:28.800 | And so, I wanted to do it for myself
00:02:31.160 | and then having my kids do it was a bonus, so.
00:02:34.160 | - Isn't that funny?
00:02:35.160 | I'm sort of the same way.
00:02:36.960 | I was really intrigued with that whole integration idea
00:02:41.960 | and using history kind of like a spine
00:02:46.260 | and branching off and studying all these different things,
00:02:50.640 | government and literature and science and language,
00:02:54.800 | all based off the spine of a timeline.
00:02:57.800 | So yeah, I was really intrigued by that too.
00:03:00.480 | That's really cool.
00:03:01.880 | Well, and so you, were you looking,
00:03:04.880 | did you know that you were looking for a classical education
00:03:09.240 | when you started homeschooling?
00:03:11.360 | - No, I didn't even know what classical education was.
00:03:14.200 | And as a matter of fact, when we first had my oldest son,
00:03:19.200 | we did not plan to homeschool
00:03:23.340 | and I wasn't even sure I was gonna stay home.
00:03:26.460 | And then once he arrived
00:03:28.960 | and I just couldn't imagine going back to work.
00:03:31.520 | And then the church that we were attending at the time
00:03:34.640 | had so many homeschoolers there that the thought was planted
00:03:39.640 | and then we just started looking into it.
00:03:41.880 | So yeah, never planned on homeschooling
00:03:44.500 | and didn't really know what classical education was.
00:03:46.700 | And honestly, I'll say it probably took me
00:03:50.040 | at least five years to kind of really understand
00:03:53.260 | what classical education is, was, and can be.
00:03:58.260 | And I feel like we're all still learning,
00:04:00.420 | especially now with the math math.
00:04:02.900 | - Yes, I was gonna say that.
00:04:05.160 | When our girls were born,
00:04:09.100 | I started reading about homeschooling.
00:04:12.400 | I had friends who were doing it who said,
00:04:14.140 | "Oh, you'd be a natural, you're already doing it.
00:04:16.020 | "I watch you with your kids
00:04:17.180 | "and you love to teach them things."
00:04:18.660 | And that was true.
00:04:19.860 | But I had read a little bit about classical education,
00:04:22.700 | but I didn't really know it.
00:04:25.180 | I didn't really fully get it.
00:04:26.900 | Even like you said, even when we signed up,
00:04:30.220 | I was still learning about the classical model.
00:04:33.500 | And I still feel like I am getting better and better
00:04:38.420 | as I go farther and farther in.
00:04:40.980 | I have a richer and deeper understanding now.
00:04:44.140 | But this whole idea, okay,
00:04:47.940 | of a classical math curriculum sort of blew my mind
00:04:52.940 | when I heard Lee talking about this some years ago.
00:04:56.280 | So that's what we want you to help us navigate today,
00:05:00.980 | the whole idea of how a math curriculum is classical
00:05:06.340 | and how different that is
00:05:07.860 | and how do we get over it being so different
00:05:10.660 | and why is it so wonderful and all of that stuff.
00:05:13.820 | But before I jump in in the middle,
00:05:16.820 | I wanna ask you,
00:05:18.700 | 'cause Babs, you are a specialist in the math.
00:05:25.940 | Tell people what you do with classical conversations now
00:05:29.380 | so they'll know why they should listen to you
00:05:31.520 | about the math now.
00:05:33.180 | - Okay, so I guess to start,
00:05:34.940 | like just so everybody knows,
00:05:36.060 | like I don't have a master's in math
00:05:37.820 | or a doctorate or anything like that.
00:05:40.460 | I am going to school to get my master's.
00:05:42.700 | I don't really know what my concentration is yet,
00:05:44.660 | but so I'm just a regular homeschool mom.
00:05:47.620 | And when about five years ago,
00:05:50.380 | I started working with Lee and Kirstie in the pilot.
00:05:54.860 | And honestly, the very first meeting we had,
00:05:58.700 | my area representative,
00:06:00.540 | he asked, did I wanna be a part of a pilot?
00:06:02.660 | And I said, yes, but I really didn't know it was math.
00:06:05.940 | And so when we had this very first meeting
00:06:08.620 | and they were talking about it,
00:06:10.060 | I was like, I think I might be in the wrong place.
00:06:13.020 | I was thinking they probably need people
00:06:16.100 | who feel like they're very well-versed in mathematics.
00:06:18.940 | And I did not feel that way.
00:06:21.380 | But the response was, no, no, no,
00:06:23.500 | we need people to realize that anybody can learn math.
00:06:27.500 | You don't have to be this expert
00:06:29.940 | that went to school to get your doctorate in math,
00:06:32.180 | that anybody can learn mathematics.
00:06:35.020 | And so that was the kind of the start.
00:06:37.660 | And so we worked through the pilot,
00:06:39.540 | we've been piloting for like four years
00:06:41.460 | and in different communities all over the United States.
00:06:45.100 | And so now I get to be what the title
00:06:48.500 | is a curriculum assistant.
00:06:49.860 | And so what I do is just help directors
00:06:52.060 | as they're getting ready to launch,
00:06:53.940 | directing using the new complex materials.
00:06:59.060 | We answer questions from parents,
00:07:01.500 | we answer questions from directors,
00:07:03.460 | really anybody that has questions, they email us,
00:07:06.940 | we have orientations for directors.
00:07:08.860 | So really just kind of supporting the directors and families
00:07:13.020 | as they're trying to learn this new curriculum.
00:07:15.500 | And Shauna Howell, she's the other curriculum assistant,
00:07:17.900 | she works with me, we're a really good team.
00:07:20.900 | She has a lot of different experience than I do.
00:07:23.460 | And so she brings a lot of different things to the table,
00:07:26.180 | but between the two of us, we try to answer questions.
00:07:29.460 | And really, again, we're just regular moms.
00:07:32.460 | And so it's not like-- - I love that.
00:07:34.460 | - You know, we don't have that.
00:07:36.940 | I will say I've learned more in the mathematics field
00:07:40.820 | over the last five years than I ever learned
00:07:43.220 | when I was in school.
00:07:44.500 | - Oh my gosh, but see, that is so encouraging.
00:07:47.340 | I wanted people to hear all that stuff that you said,
00:07:50.300 | that you are a quote unquote regular person,
00:07:54.300 | that you're not a math genius, that you didn't have a PhD,
00:07:59.340 | that you didn't have a master's in math when you started.
00:08:03.500 | And in fact, you never thought of yourself
00:08:05.580 | as particularly mathy when you started this.
00:08:09.500 | So the math map is not a curriculum
00:08:13.180 | for quote unquote math people, but for all people,
00:08:17.260 | 'cause you are that person.
00:08:19.700 | And so are most of us.
00:08:21.900 | So how, you said something while you were talking
00:08:26.540 | that I've heard people say before,
00:08:30.500 | I've heard Lee say it before,
00:08:32.100 | and there were times when I thought, yeah, right.
00:08:34.900 | But I believe it more and more now.
00:08:37.100 | You said, Babs, that math is really for all of us.
00:08:42.100 | So why is math really for all of us?
00:08:47.500 | And how does the math map help us discover that?
00:08:53.940 | - So I feel like, okay, when you think about,
00:08:58.420 | well, today's Halloween, we're recording this on Halloween.
00:09:00.940 | And it always makes me think about like Reformation Day.
00:09:04.140 | And honestly, I knew nothing about Reformation Day
00:09:06.980 | until we started CC.
00:09:08.180 | So just gotta make that known.
00:09:10.500 | But I think about back then,
00:09:13.100 | we had priests who felt like they were the only ones
00:09:17.700 | who could have access to the Bible
00:09:19.220 | and they were just gonna tell people
00:09:21.500 | what they wanted to know, right?
00:09:23.460 | Or what they wanted them to know.
00:09:26.060 | And we know how that ended, right?
00:09:28.060 | - Yes.
00:09:29.500 | - So I feel like with math, our whole lives,
00:09:34.020 | we've got these experts sometimes telling us,
00:09:39.500 | well, I'm not really sure that you're smart enough
00:09:42.580 | to know all these advanced things.
00:09:45.180 | So we're gonna teach you addition and subtraction
00:09:47.860 | and multiplication and division,
00:09:49.780 | maybe a little geometry, maybe a little bit of algebra,
00:09:53.140 | but all these other advanced things,
00:09:55.140 | we're gonna save for some smarter people.
00:09:58.380 | And I feel like that's why we feel like
00:10:02.300 | we're not math people,
00:10:03.380 | because we don't get to that, the more advanced things.
00:10:07.820 | And so I feel like with the math,
00:10:09.460 | what they've done is they just, they lay it all out there.
00:10:12.100 | This is everything you could possibly wanna know
00:10:14.500 | in the mathematics field.
00:10:16.900 | And now we get to decide, like, what do I wanna do?
00:10:19.900 | Do I wanna dig in deeper and learn about a derivative
00:10:23.140 | or an integral, which honestly,
00:10:25.140 | vocabulary never heard of before the math math?
00:10:27.820 | - Yes, yes.
00:10:28.660 | - And so, I feel like there are these groups out there
00:10:33.220 | that kinda wanna say, no, it's not for all people.
00:10:36.060 | But what the math math does is say, no, it is for you.
00:10:39.340 | And another thing too, is that like, God is a God of order.
00:10:43.340 | And so I feel like He's like the first mathematician, right?
00:10:46.220 | And so if He had this creation and He had this order
00:10:51.220 | and He's created all these things that are related to math,
00:10:55.900 | why do I not get to study it?
00:10:58.260 | And so the math math brings all that together, right?
00:11:01.620 | We're trying to learn how to see God in math.
00:11:05.580 | We're actually using art and trying to see,
00:11:08.440 | like look at an art picture, how is this related to math?
00:11:11.020 | How is this related to God?
00:11:13.100 | And so really just bringing all these connections together.
00:11:16.480 | And so I feel like that is, that's why, God created this.
00:11:22.580 | And so He wants us to know.
00:11:25.260 | He wouldn't just create something and say,
00:11:27.420 | well, I'm gonna create this,
00:11:28.260 | but I don't really want you to know about it, right?
00:11:30.620 | - Or I'm gonna create it for some of you
00:11:32.900 | and hide it from others of you.
00:11:35.580 | - Right, no.
00:11:36.420 | - Yeah, that is so beautiful.
00:11:40.340 | - I think too, one thing that the math math does,
00:11:42.980 | which I don't think anybody else does this,
00:11:45.100 | is we're all studying the same topic on the same week.
00:11:49.780 | And so like, if I have a five-year-old
00:11:51.500 | and I have a 16-year-old,
00:11:53.380 | we have the same concept that we're looking at this week.
00:11:58.020 | Now, obviously the five-year-old's lesson pages
00:12:00.340 | are gonna look a little different than my 16-year-old,
00:12:02.380 | but they're studying the same concept.
00:12:04.740 | And so I can dig as deep as I want to.
00:12:07.620 | That five-year-old, if he really enjoys that topic,
00:12:10.060 | I can let him keep going, right?
00:12:12.380 | And so I think that's another way
00:12:13.820 | we can use this curriculum to bring our family together
00:12:17.700 | and try to have those conversations together
00:12:19.660 | and help each other.
00:12:20.940 | Wouldn't it be cool if the 16-year-old
00:12:22.500 | helped the five-year-old?
00:12:23.460 | - Yes, because they will probably remember better than we
00:12:27.500 | what it was like to understand like a five-year-old
00:12:31.300 | and be able to see where they are,
00:12:33.460 | but where they could go with it.
00:12:35.340 | That's really cool.
00:12:37.020 | I love the whole idea that math is for everyone
00:12:41.060 | because God is for everyone.
00:12:44.220 | And God created the order and the beauty in the world
00:12:49.180 | for us to discover and for us to participate in.
00:12:53.300 | I really liked what you said,
00:12:55.140 | and we'll explore it a little bit more, Babs,
00:12:57.460 | about the math map making more math accessible
00:13:02.460 | to more of us using lots of different avenues.
00:13:08.660 | Like you talked about art.
00:13:10.420 | I just think that that is one way
00:13:14.540 | that the math map does make math for everyone
00:13:18.460 | because it realizes that there might be a different hook
00:13:21.740 | that will grab all of us.
00:13:24.420 | We might be pulled into mathematical thinking
00:13:28.420 | or even into a thought that we never considered
00:13:32.060 | as a math thought before this curriculum.
00:13:36.540 | - And there's a project we have called Seeing the Unseen.
00:13:39.820 | - Yeah.
00:13:40.660 | - It's at the end of the year.
00:13:41.580 | And a lot of our kids who really love art,
00:13:45.220 | they kind of thrive in this area
00:13:46.860 | because they've learned all year
00:13:48.820 | how to find these connections.
00:13:50.020 | Like how can I see God in the art?
00:13:51.620 | How can I see God in the math?
00:13:53.420 | But in this project, they can draw,
00:13:56.140 | they can find pictures of where they see God in math
00:14:00.140 | or where they see God in art,
00:14:01.860 | but it's all about this project.
00:14:04.180 | And so I think a lot of our students enjoy that project
00:14:07.780 | because it's not just calculation.
00:14:09.780 | It's not just I'm having a bunch of problems
00:14:13.620 | and I'm writing it down.
00:14:15.100 | This is a creative project.
00:14:16.740 | So if you do have those creative students,
00:14:19.300 | then they get to shine during that time.
00:14:22.660 | So they can either draw,
00:14:24.700 | like if they're a really good drawer artist,
00:14:26.940 | they can paint.
00:14:28.380 | Or if they're not so great at that,
00:14:30.380 | they can find pictures in magazines.
00:14:32.740 | - Right.
00:14:33.860 | - And so that kind of thing.
00:14:34.700 | So I feel like that's another way
00:14:35.820 | it can be accessible to everybody.
00:14:37.180 | We're using that project
00:14:38.660 | to kind of bring everybody together,
00:14:39.980 | whatever talents they have,
00:14:41.940 | bringing them to the table there.
00:14:43.780 | - I like that.
00:14:44.700 | I like that.
00:14:45.540 | Now, I know that you guys,
00:14:47.220 | you and Shawna and some other people
00:14:51.020 | are helping families that have gone ahead
00:14:54.860 | and dipped their toe into the math map
00:14:57.580 | who are getting immersed
00:14:59.580 | in this brand new curriculum this year.
00:15:01.500 | You guys are helping.
00:15:02.860 | But there are a lot of us that are just kind of,
00:15:05.620 | we're not there yet.
00:15:06.980 | Maybe we don't have a student
00:15:08.660 | who is using the math map
00:15:11.980 | for their math education this year.
00:15:13.940 | And we're just kind of hanging back
00:15:16.060 | and we're watching to see how it goes.
00:15:19.060 | And some people are a little anxious
00:15:22.100 | about making a big change in a subject like math.
00:15:26.420 | What's the biggest misconception
00:15:30.060 | about the math map
00:15:31.980 | among people who've heard about it
00:15:34.380 | but haven't experienced it yet?
00:15:36.340 | - So I think there's really two big things that I hear.
00:15:41.820 | One is that,
00:15:45.180 | well, CC is really only doing this to make money
00:15:48.060 | so they can have their own curriculum.
00:15:50.180 | And really, there's lots of reasons
00:15:54.100 | why we have this curriculum and we can talk about it.
00:15:56.260 | But I think if you come to the book clubs
00:15:59.020 | and you get to hear Lee and Kirstie,
00:16:01.900 | and you really get to hear their heart
00:16:03.620 | behind why they're even here and offering their support,
00:16:08.620 | you would really know that it's not about money.
00:16:11.540 | And I would say too, like I said,
00:16:13.340 | I've only been working on the math map for five years
00:16:16.020 | but they've been working on it much longer than that.
00:16:18.820 | And we just started making money.
00:16:21.380 | Like as soon as the complex came out,
00:16:23.500 | that was the very first time we ever made money.
00:16:26.180 | So how many years have you been spending money?
00:16:29.340 | - Lee has spent so much money to develop this curriculum
00:16:32.340 | that she feels so strongly about.
00:16:36.500 | - Yes, and I think a lot of parents,
00:16:39.420 | I wanna say Shauna found this statistic somewhere
00:16:42.660 | about how many families are so apprehensive about math.
00:16:46.620 | And so, they wanna kind of help in that regard
00:16:50.620 | and not make families feel so apprehensive about math
00:16:54.020 | because a lot of us, honestly,
00:16:56.180 | that's the first thing we outsource.
00:16:58.220 | We look at math, we're like,
00:17:00.260 | well, I'm not a math person,
00:17:03.300 | and so I'm just gonna outsource it.
00:17:05.100 | But I think we're missing so many of the blessings
00:17:08.700 | of trying to teach our kids math.
00:17:12.060 | And so that's one thing that I think Lee and Kirstie do.
00:17:14.380 | But another thing too is the conversations,
00:17:17.460 | the common conversations that we get to have,
00:17:20.300 | not just with our families at home, but in community.
00:17:23.980 | So now that we're using this in Challenge A,
00:17:27.100 | all of our kiddos, we're all doing the same curriculum.
00:17:29.900 | We all can help each other.
00:17:31.460 | We have a director that's there to offer support.
00:17:34.460 | And so, that's another great reason
00:17:37.420 | to have our own curriculum.
00:17:39.380 | And then also the thing about copyright,
00:17:41.780 | we can't really provide support
00:17:43.620 | to other math curriculums out there
00:17:45.100 | because they have their own, right?
00:17:47.140 | And there's a lot of copyright infringement.
00:17:49.220 | So now that we have our own, we're not,
00:17:51.860 | we don't have to do that.
00:17:52.860 | So, but so that's one thing is that,
00:17:56.260 | I don't, I'm pretty sure that was not the intent.
00:17:59.180 | It's gonna make money,
00:18:01.540 | even though we just started making money now,
00:18:03.380 | and it's, I'm sure there's been a lot more spent
00:18:05.460 | than what we've made.
00:18:06.740 | - Sure.
00:18:07.860 | - I think the second one too is just looking at math
00:18:11.380 | and just saying, it's too hard.
00:18:13.700 | Like I just can't do it.
00:18:15.860 | And I remember, I don't,
00:18:18.580 | I think it was a book club that Lee, Lee said this.
00:18:21.540 | She said, if you think about how hard it is
00:18:24.420 | to be a new believer, like a new student of the Bible,
00:18:27.500 | it takes a lifetime to understand the Bible, right?
00:18:32.180 | And then the more we read the Bible,
00:18:33.980 | the more we get closer to Christ
00:18:36.740 | and we just dig, dig, dig, right?
00:18:38.740 | - Yes.
00:18:39.580 | - And I feel like, you know,
00:18:40.460 | obviously we don't wanna compare the math map to the Bible.
00:18:43.100 | - Right, but it's not what you're saying, I know.
00:18:45.180 | - It's not, it's not what I'm saying.
00:18:46.260 | But if we look at it in that way, you know,
00:18:48.940 | this is gonna be new in the beginning.
00:18:50.740 | I'm learning alongside my student,
00:18:54.460 | then I can say, okay, it might be hard,
00:18:58.740 | but we can do it together
00:18:59.900 | and we can do a little bit at a time, right?
00:19:02.140 | I can learn a little bit this year,
00:19:03.780 | we'll learn a little bit next year.
00:19:05.340 | And sometimes our kids surpass us and that's okay.
00:19:07.700 | - Yes.
00:19:08.540 | I think our kids sometimes surpass us
00:19:12.820 | because we have expectations as grownups.
00:19:17.820 | And I do think people will look at the math map, Babs,
00:19:21.300 | and see it and think, now what?
00:19:25.540 | That is not math like I ever saw it.
00:19:28.100 | I can hear people say, I know I'm not a math person,
00:19:31.860 | but this does not look like math to me.
00:19:34.980 | This is not what I'm used to.
00:19:37.260 | And so it's unfamiliar and unfamiliar things are hard.
00:19:41.620 | And sometimes for some of us,
00:19:44.180 | unfamiliar things are anxiety producing
00:19:47.140 | because they don't meet the expectations
00:19:50.180 | that we've always had.
00:19:51.620 | And so we think, I don't know how that's gonna work.
00:19:54.580 | It clearly doesn't work the way
00:19:57.700 | I've always seen math programs work.
00:20:01.620 | And so I, as a grownup, am a little suspicious.
00:20:06.620 | Oh yes, I'm a little suspicious.
00:20:08.940 | How is this gonna turn out?
00:20:10.220 | Whereas kids are like, cool, I get to trace this.
00:20:13.980 | What is that weird symbol?
00:20:15.180 | Let's trace it with red.
00:20:16.860 | Let's talk about that.
00:20:17.900 | Let's find it on this page again.
00:20:20.600 | They just go with the flow.
00:20:22.380 | And we, as grownups, demand to understand everything.
00:20:26.020 | And that, y'all, that's not the classical way.
00:20:29.540 | The classical way is that we get the grammar
00:20:32.940 | and we learn in layers and slowly.
00:20:37.380 | So what is the MathMaps Claim to Fame?
00:20:40.940 | Is it that it's a classical curriculum?
00:20:45.020 | - It is.
00:20:47.300 | I mean, I really think it's probably the first
00:20:51.860 | or only one that I know of that's Christian and classical.
00:20:56.220 | And that provides that one-room schoolhouse opportunity
00:21:01.060 | if parents want it.
00:21:02.940 | There are parents who don't want it,
00:21:04.420 | who don't want one-room schoolhouse.
00:21:05.700 | I get it. - Okay.
00:21:06.860 | - You get to a point where you're seventh grade,
00:21:08.540 | you wanna start letting them be more independent,
00:21:11.260 | and that's okay.
00:21:12.420 | But for those families who do want the one-room schoolhouse,
00:21:15.780 | this is really, I think, is the only one I've ever seen.
00:21:18.620 | - Yeah.
00:21:19.460 | - Where we're all studying the same concept.
00:21:21.400 | - Yes, yes.
00:21:23.260 | So how is it classical?
00:21:25.420 | How is the MathMap classical?
00:21:26.980 | You said it's the only one,
00:21:28.340 | and it's the only one I've ever seen.
00:21:30.380 | So how is the MathMap classical?
00:21:35.340 | And why is it so hard for us to wrap our minds
00:21:38.380 | around a curriculum that's classical,
00:21:41.980 | a math curriculum that's classical?
00:21:44.200 | - Most of us are used to instructor-led,
00:21:48.580 | I think the technical term is didactic teaching.
00:21:51.300 | - Yes.
00:21:52.300 | - And so that's, you know,
00:21:53.500 | a teacher stands at the front of the room and she lectures.
00:21:58.140 | He or she is telling us exactly what we need to know
00:22:01.540 | and why, and so that's what we're all used to.
00:22:05.260 | But that's not classical.
00:22:06.300 | And so really, to learn classically is we start with,
00:22:11.300 | what do I already know?
00:22:12.640 | We look at a problem that's completed
00:22:16.580 | and we look at all the steps,
00:22:18.420 | and then we compare it to a problem
00:22:20.200 | that doesn't have all the steps.
00:22:22.300 | We look for patterns.
00:22:24.740 | And this can lead to a light bulb, right?
00:22:28.060 | I can discover on my own how this problem works
00:22:32.020 | just by comparing and looking.
00:22:34.580 | And nobody told me, nobody told me,
00:22:37.120 | I discovered it on my own.
00:22:38.940 | And I think when we discover it on our own, it lasts, right?
00:22:43.540 | We remember, if somebody else gives me a mnemonic,
00:22:46.880 | maybe I'll get it, maybe I won't, right?
00:22:48.760 | But if I come up with this mnemonic that helps me
00:22:51.460 | with whatever I'm trying to learn,
00:22:53.300 | then I feel like it sticks, right?
00:22:55.220 | And so I think that's the big difference
00:22:57.660 | is we don't have somebody just standing over us saying,
00:22:59.900 | this is exactly how to do it,
00:23:01.180 | and this is what you should do.
00:23:02.660 | We're discovering it on our own.
00:23:04.320 | And yes, that is scary because this is math, right?
00:23:08.660 | And so I need to really attend, right?
00:23:12.780 | I need to slow down, look for the patterns,
00:23:16.100 | look at all the steps,
00:23:17.700 | and then we get a deeper understanding.
00:23:21.020 | And so I think that's why it's hard for us
00:23:23.580 | to wrap our minds around,
00:23:24.420 | because number one, it's gonna take time, right?
00:23:26.840 | It's not gonna be where I just throw my kid
00:23:28.820 | in front of a screen and let somebody teach them,
00:23:32.260 | or even just give them a textbook and say,
00:23:34.080 | read it and do it.
00:23:35.520 | Now, they're actually gonna have to slow down, right?
00:23:40.520 | Lead the directions, look at the patterns,
00:23:43.840 | figure out what they already know,
00:23:45.680 | and then looking for those patterns
00:23:48.580 | kind of leads to the light bulb.
00:23:50.320 | So I think that's a big reason why it's hard for us
00:23:53.400 | to wrap our minds around,
00:23:54.360 | 'cause most of us have not been taught that way.
00:23:56.720 | - Yes, yes.
00:23:58.920 | You're right, you're right.
00:24:00.280 | We aren't, we are taught, listen to the teacher,
00:24:04.880 | do what she does, and do that to all of the problems
00:24:10.140 | that look like that.
00:24:12.040 | But nobody ever says, here are two different equations,
00:24:17.040 | or here are two different shapes,
00:24:19.700 | or here are two different number sentences.
00:24:22.720 | What do you see that are alike?
00:24:24.620 | What about what you learned from last week?
00:24:27.100 | What was alike in that one?
00:24:29.260 | - You're right, you're right.
00:24:30.660 | But it is so different.
00:24:32.700 | I think that's why it's hard for us
00:24:34.300 | to wrap our minds around it.
00:24:35.580 | It's not what we're used to.
00:24:37.780 | And so we're a little fearful that it won't work out.
00:24:42.340 | But here's the thing, all you classical parents
00:24:45.620 | who have been teaching your children to read classically,
00:24:50.460 | and you've been teaching your children
00:24:52.780 | to study science and history classically,
00:24:56.460 | you've had your kids in foundations
00:24:58.340 | since they were four years old,
00:25:00.220 | and now they're 12 or 13, and you can look back and see,
00:25:04.380 | man, my child really does understand pieces of history.
00:25:09.380 | And it all started 'cause they just memorized something.
00:25:12.780 | You fully believed that the classical model,
00:25:15.660 | you now would tell somebody the classical model works, y'all.
00:25:19.460 | It works.
00:25:20.340 | I know you just think that your rote memorization,
00:25:23.300 | they're not really learning, but they are.
00:25:26.540 | Can you give the math map that same chance?
00:25:30.820 | Can you learn math classically alongside your child
00:25:35.660 | and trust that the understanding is gonna grow
00:25:40.660 | as the grasp of grammar grows?
00:25:43.500 | I think that's just really cool.
00:25:46.100 | Okay, Babs, let me ask you this.
00:25:47.420 | Say I believe it, I want to do this.
00:25:51.380 | I want my family to transition to the math map.
00:25:55.900 | What is your best tip for making the switch?
00:26:00.260 | Is it gonna be painless?
00:26:01.860 | And look, the giveaway answer to that is no,
00:26:04.180 | nothing is painless, that's worth it.
00:26:06.580 | But what are the three big things that I need to do
00:26:10.260 | or keep in mind as we transition?
00:26:13.060 | I think the first thing is to remember
00:26:18.300 | that we are all learning
00:26:20.340 | how to teach math classically together.
00:26:22.620 | That's the biggest thing.
00:26:24.900 | I really feel like that's because, again,
00:26:26.900 | it's just brand new.
00:26:28.020 | Most of us have not done it before.
00:26:29.380 | We're all learning together.
00:26:31.460 | If you have an opportunity to listen to Lee or Kirstie
00:26:36.420 | talk about the math map and their heart,
00:26:39.860 | there's lots of videos on CC Connected,
00:26:43.900 | some are on YouTube,
00:26:46.060 | but really they just talk about their heart.
00:26:48.700 | They talk about why we have the math map
00:26:51.580 | and teaching classically.
00:26:54.380 | And I think that's the first thing.
00:26:56.700 | Practically though, I think we have the naturals curriculum,
00:27:00.180 | which is for ages five to six and older,
00:27:03.420 | that's kind of one of the beginning ones,
00:27:05.180 | is downloading that, printing out the pages
00:27:08.300 | and just doing them together.
00:27:09.980 | Read, copy, trace.
00:27:11.740 | I remember there were a couple of times
00:27:14.900 | where I would go to Kirstie and I would have a question
00:27:18.900 | and she would say, "Did you read the directions?"
00:27:21.500 | (laughs)
00:27:23.340 | And I was like, "I'm sure I did."
00:27:25.460 | I go back and no, it just told me to read it
00:27:27.860 | or it just told me to copy it.
00:27:29.620 | What I was trying to do-
00:27:30.460 | - Probably not to teach it or understand it.
00:27:33.580 | - What I was trying to do was figure everything out
00:27:36.020 | this first time I'm looking at it,
00:27:37.540 | but all it really told me to do was read or copy or trace.
00:27:41.500 | And so I think that would be the second thing practically
00:27:44.300 | is downloading the naturals
00:27:45.900 | and just reading the directions and going through it.
00:27:49.180 | You as a parent and then your kids as students.
00:27:53.380 | And then the third thing I think is to go to the book clubs.
00:27:55.940 | The book clubs are amazing.
00:27:58.660 | Right now, we're in the middle of where they're going
00:28:02.460 | through what it would look like in community,
00:28:05.580 | using the in-community outline for these challenging kids.
00:28:08.820 | And what I just love about it is Kirstie steps through
00:28:12.940 | what we're doing, but then she has a time at the end
00:28:15.740 | for question and answers.
00:28:16.980 | And even if you don't bring a question, if you just listen.
00:28:20.580 | - Yes, yes.
00:28:21.980 | - The questions and answers are so helpful.
00:28:25.100 | And I remember one in particular,
00:28:28.540 | there was a, we kind of talked about this earlier,
00:28:30.460 | but there was a mom that she said,
00:28:33.140 | "I'm just thankful that I have the opportunity
00:28:37.300 | because I feel robbed."
00:28:39.500 | Like, I never knew that I could learn about God
00:28:44.020 | through a math curriculum.
00:28:45.500 | And so I feel robbed, like all these years,
00:28:48.180 | I've hated math and I didn't want to do math.
00:28:50.100 | And now I realize I can do this math curriculum
00:28:53.740 | and I can learn more about God.
00:28:55.860 | And so she was kind of like really emotional.
00:28:59.300 | You know, like, I'm upset because it took me this long
00:29:02.620 | in my life to realize that I could have been doing
00:29:05.220 | this all along.
00:29:06.060 | So I would say, you know, going to the book clubs,
00:29:09.340 | they're encouraging.
00:29:11.260 | So, you know, watching introductory videos,
00:29:14.780 | downloading the naturals.
00:29:16.100 | And then if you can, attending a book club
00:29:19.380 | would be my top three.
00:29:20.700 | - That's really good because it really does help
00:29:23.940 | to hear what other people's experiences are like.
00:29:27.700 | That's one reason you can go.
00:29:29.660 | So you don't feel alone when you don't quite get it
00:29:32.820 | or when you can say out loud,
00:29:35.980 | this is not what I remember about math.
00:29:38.900 | I mean, or for you to be able to say out loud,
00:29:42.940 | my child asked me this question and I don't know the answer
00:29:45.780 | and this curriculum is not giving me the answer.
00:29:48.940 | And to hear Kirstie say,
00:29:51.500 | well, what this curriculum is asking you to do right now
00:29:55.380 | is read and copy and trace and just to relax in that.
00:30:00.380 | So I love it.
00:30:01.500 | I think you're right.
00:30:02.340 | It does help.
00:30:03.380 | It helps to hear the vision.
00:30:06.060 | But like you said, it helps us to see the practical,
00:30:09.900 | to get an answer to our question
00:30:12.100 | or to be encouraged on how to find our own answer.
00:30:16.060 | That's really cool.
00:30:16.900 | I love the story about the mom who's just really glad
00:30:21.500 | that now she has the opportunity to see the Lord
00:30:25.940 | and to learn about Him as she does math.
00:30:28.460 | Is that the kind of thing,
00:30:29.540 | what is it that parents like best about the math map?
00:30:34.540 | - Oh, there's so many things.
00:30:37.460 | So one is, we always hear in CC
00:30:40.540 | about redeeming your own education, reclaiming it, right?
00:30:43.300 | And so I think that's a big thing.
00:30:45.420 | But what they like about it with their children
00:30:48.380 | is the conversations they get to have.
00:30:51.500 | And that just starts with looking at the art, right?
00:30:54.100 | They're looking at the art, they're finding connections.
00:30:56.340 | And if you have multiple kids, different ages,
00:31:00.700 | you're gonna get all kinds of things on the spectrum.
00:31:02.940 | And so just talking through those together,
00:31:05.700 | I think the parents love those conversations.
00:31:08.820 | And honestly, there are some families that are like,
00:31:11.860 | oh, it's just, there's a lot for me to take in,
00:31:14.740 | that's where I'm gonna start.
00:31:16.220 | That's the only thing I'm gonna do this year
00:31:18.420 | is I'm gonna do the conversations first, right?
00:31:21.180 | - Oh, that's good.
00:31:22.580 | - And so I think, if you feel overwhelmed,
00:31:25.460 | then just start there, right?
00:31:26.700 | 'Cause that's one thing that parents say, that's the best.
00:31:29.900 | The other thing is like the freedom
00:31:32.620 | because so like there's 16 lesson pages,
00:31:37.220 | but the first four are like the brand new stuff.
00:31:41.060 | And then the rest of them kind of repeat the same thing
00:31:44.100 | that's on those first four.
00:31:45.020 | We have that repetition, that's part of being classical.
00:31:47.780 | Well, as a parent, I don't have to do all these pages.
00:31:51.260 | Like if we do the first four and I feel like,
00:31:54.220 | okay, they've been introduced,
00:31:55.620 | let's just say I only do the next four.
00:31:58.300 | Well, I've still got repetition in there.
00:32:00.140 | I don't technically have to tell them
00:32:01.980 | they have to do all the other pages, right?
00:32:04.220 | So I get to decide.
00:32:05.580 | I get to choose how many pages my kids do,
00:32:08.580 | which order they do them in.
00:32:10.100 | And I feel like parents want that freedom,
00:32:14.060 | but they've been scared to say,
00:32:15.940 | well, you only have to do the odds or the evens
00:32:18.180 | thinking they're gonna miss them.
00:32:19.620 | But now they feel like they do have more freedom
00:32:23.860 | because they know they're not gonna miss anything
00:32:25.980 | if they cover those first four pages.
00:32:28.260 | - They've got the new material.
00:32:29.940 | - Yeah, they've got the new stuff.
00:32:30.820 | And then next year they're gonna see it again,
00:32:32.660 | next year they're gonna see it again, right?
00:32:34.780 | And so they're not gonna miss anything.
00:32:37.340 | - Yes, I love that.
00:32:38.540 | The building nature of the curriculum
00:32:41.340 | that you're always revisiting and reminding.
00:32:45.660 | And so I know, you know,
00:32:48.900 | that's what makes regular math curriculum
00:32:52.780 | kind of hard to teach as a group activity
00:32:56.940 | because somebody's gonna get it right away
00:33:00.260 | and somebody's gonna get it eventually
00:33:03.100 | and somebody's never gonna get it.
00:33:05.100 | But in a class, everybody's gonna move on.
00:33:08.500 | And so you never know if the concept
00:33:12.700 | that your child sort of got is enough.
00:33:16.780 | But with the math map, your student,
00:33:19.780 | your child is gonna see all of these concepts again.
00:33:24.220 | And they are gonna have lots of visiting
00:33:27.580 | with each new idea.
00:33:30.420 | - And it's not just each year,
00:33:31.740 | like we'll see something in an early lesson
00:33:35.380 | that we're gonna see again
00:33:36.500 | in three or four lessons down the road.
00:33:38.380 | So they're still gonna see it again, right?
00:33:40.340 | So I don't even have to wait until next year.
00:33:42.620 | I just know that they're gonna see it again, right?
00:33:45.300 | - I love that, I love that.
00:33:47.220 | And maybe even see it in a different way
00:33:50.340 | because we know that we don't all learn the same way.
00:33:54.340 | Sometimes I will listen to my husband explain something
00:33:57.300 | to one of my kids and just think,
00:34:00.100 | "Yeah, I still don't know what in the world
00:34:01.540 | you're talking about."
00:34:02.860 | But the kid is like, "Oh, yeah."
00:34:05.420 | But like her sister will be looking like,
00:34:08.620 | "You just started talking like Charlie Brown's teacher.
00:34:11.460 | Wah, wah, wah, wah, I don't even know."
00:34:14.060 | And so that child will look at me and say,
00:34:16.620 | "I mean, will you try to explain it to me?
00:34:18.660 | 'Cause I don't understand daddy's way."
00:34:20.780 | And so I love it that the math map
00:34:23.340 | will give our students multiple ways
00:34:25.660 | to approach a new concept
00:34:28.100 | so that it is hospitable to everybody.
00:34:31.300 | That's great.
00:34:32.500 | Well, let me ask you this.
00:34:33.340 | What do kids, have you gotten much feedback
00:34:36.700 | from kids in the home who are doing the math map?
00:34:39.860 | What do they like the best about math map?
00:34:42.420 | - So one of the things that I heard early on
00:34:46.980 | was that they liked the fact that when CC's done,
00:34:50.580 | they are done with math.
00:34:52.500 | Because there were 30 booklets for 30 weeks of challenge.
00:34:55.900 | Whereas in Saxon, we had, well, sometimes 120,
00:34:59.660 | sometimes 140, depending on what level you were on.
00:35:02.500 | And so I feel we were always behind in math.
00:35:05.140 | Because we have one community day
00:35:08.500 | in the middle of the week.
00:35:09.580 | And so you already are kind of behind,
00:35:11.100 | you gotta double up somewhere.
00:35:13.180 | Life happens, and then you don't always get to do
00:35:15.740 | one lesson every day.
00:35:16.780 | So we end up doing, we were doing math all summer long.
00:35:20.540 | - Yes, yes.
00:35:21.380 | - And that is exhausting.
00:35:22.220 | - Yes, you're never done, you're never done.
00:35:24.900 | Yep.
00:35:25.740 | - So now, I mean, that's the thing I think the kids like
00:35:28.220 | is they don't feel like they're behind
00:35:30.300 | and they're done, right?
00:35:32.780 | Now, I will say this for parents,
00:35:34.500 | just so parents know, like,
00:35:36.340 | if you don't do all the pages during the year,
00:35:40.540 | if you want to have your kids keep working,
00:35:43.860 | you still have extra pages in there that they could do,
00:35:46.580 | right, if you, you know, want your student.
00:35:48.660 | 'Cause you know, sometimes if we go all summer
00:35:50.340 | and don't do anything, we forget.
00:35:52.180 | - Yeah, you get rusty.
00:35:53.500 | - Yeah.
00:35:54.340 | So, you know, you can still review stuff,
00:35:56.340 | but I think for kids, they're like,
00:35:57.740 | "Oh, it's week 30, I'm done," right?
00:36:00.020 | And I think another thing that I've heard from kids is
00:36:04.860 | they didn't really know that you can have conversations
00:36:07.220 | about math.
00:36:08.060 | - Yeah.
00:36:08.900 | - Because it was really like, you know, we think of math,
00:36:10.260 | we think of calculation, that's all we think about.
00:36:12.900 | And so now the kids are like, "Oh, we can talk about it."
00:36:15.940 | Like, and I think they enjoy the conversations, you know,
00:36:19.700 | not just sitting there doing calculation work.
00:36:21.980 | - Yeah.
00:36:22.900 | I've heard kids say that the math map
00:36:26.700 | gives them an opportunity to wonder about things.
00:36:31.700 | And they never thought that math was a place for wonder.
00:36:36.620 | It seemed like a place for surety and proving things
00:36:41.620 | and, you know, balancing an equation or doing a proof
00:36:45.860 | or solving a problem.
00:36:48.220 | And they didn't really see it as a place for wonder,
00:36:53.220 | but as just a place for solving.
00:36:55.820 | - Yeah.
00:36:58.460 | And I think too, a lot of them,
00:36:59.420 | especially those who are like creative and artistic,
00:37:02.620 | they really like the fact that art has been brought into it.
00:37:06.460 | - Yes.
00:37:07.300 | - And then they, you know, like we've talked about before,
00:37:08.660 | that end of year project where they get to draw or paint
00:37:11.900 | or whatever it is.
00:37:12.740 | And, oh, and I saw there was another kid,
00:37:15.340 | I think he had Play-Doh.
00:37:16.940 | And he was like doing some of the lessons
00:37:20.020 | are like toward geometry,
00:37:21.140 | where we get into like 2D and 3D.
00:37:22.780 | And he was making the shapes within, you know, using Play-Doh
00:37:26.540 | and, you know, we think Play-Doh is like for little kids,
00:37:28.500 | but we use Play-Doh in Challenge A all the time.
00:37:31.260 | My kids love using Play-Doh.
00:37:32.500 | - Oh yeah, oh yeah.
00:37:34.060 | - I mean, I think it's just,
00:37:35.220 | I think we just need to open the box
00:37:36.860 | and let our kids explore.
00:37:38.500 | And, you know, I think that's one thing
00:37:40.260 | that the math map does help them do is it's not just,
00:37:44.020 | here's your worksheet, here's a calculation sheet.
00:37:46.500 | It's, that's over, right?
00:37:48.020 | I think that it just gives them some freedom to do more
00:37:51.300 | than just calculate.
00:37:52.420 | - Yeah, I think outside the box is really good.
00:37:56.060 | And I think that more of our kids
00:37:59.980 | are willing to think outside the box
00:38:02.340 | with regard to math education than us as parents are.
00:38:06.020 | We're so uptight as parents about education.
00:38:10.660 | And our kids are so much more full of exploration,
00:38:15.460 | the heart of an explorer.
00:38:17.100 | That's what lives in our kids.
00:38:19.260 | Okay, I don't wanna go, I don't want,
00:38:21.140 | I want us to talk about some practical questions
00:38:23.980 | 'cause I feel like some people came on saying,
00:38:27.100 | okay, all that good stuff, all that good stuff,
00:38:29.180 | fine, fine, fine.
00:38:30.100 | I believe it, I love it, I'm gonna do it.
00:38:32.220 | But here's some practical questions, Babs.
00:38:34.900 | What is it that we're supposed to do first every day?
00:38:38.780 | So what is advocated?
00:38:41.380 | 'Cause I know it's different than regular math education.
00:38:45.340 | I mean, regular, like I'm gonna tell you something new,
00:38:49.740 | some new piece of grammar, new vocabulary.
00:38:52.300 | I'm gonna show you how to do a new kind of calculation
00:38:55.420 | and then you're gonna practice.
00:38:57.060 | But the math map days don't start like that.
00:39:00.220 | What do we do first?
00:39:01.580 | - So I would say first every day is do flashcards.
00:39:06.700 | Some kind of calculation, right?
00:39:09.020 | Whether it's addition, subtraction, multiplication, division
00:39:11.540 | or what I really like, the new ones, the notations,
00:39:15.260 | the notation flashcards,
00:39:16.540 | because I don't know all that grammar.
00:39:18.700 | Like all that grammar is so new.
00:39:20.980 | So I even use it for myself.
00:39:22.580 | Like I'll just do two or three a day.
00:39:24.420 | And this is a question we get asked so many times is,
00:39:28.220 | do you have a sheet that tells me the notations
00:39:30.940 | for this week and I'm just gonna go over those?
00:39:33.660 | Well, like, no, because you're gonna see those notations
00:39:36.780 | so much throughout the curriculum.
00:39:38.740 | Just pick four or five and drill them until they're mastered.
00:39:42.460 | And then- - And then get some more.
00:39:44.340 | - Yeah, then get more and then get more.
00:39:46.020 | So I would say the very first thing to do
00:39:47.460 | would be do flashcards,
00:39:48.780 | whether it's like a mental math kind of thing,
00:39:50.540 | like addition, subtraction,
00:39:52.060 | or whether it's the new grammar,
00:39:54.620 | like using the notation flashcards.
00:39:56.300 | So I would do that first. - Okay, okay.
00:39:58.500 | All right, you keep talking, you mentioned,
00:40:00.860 | and I have seen the front of the math map covers
00:40:04.340 | and I've heard people talking about, like at practicum,
00:40:07.620 | about the art of the math map
00:40:09.780 | and how you always have that conversation.
00:40:11.820 | Talk to us about the art.
00:40:13.620 | Do I have to use that thing?
00:40:15.580 | Do I really need to do the art?
00:40:17.500 | - I would say if you don't do anything else,
00:40:20.300 | you should do the art.
00:40:21.140 | - Ooh, talk about that. - Because it's the best part.
00:40:25.140 | Even if you don't feel confident in the math lesson pages,
00:40:28.540 | if you just look at the art,
00:40:30.380 | I feel like it's restful, right?
00:40:32.540 | You're just looking at a piece of art,
00:40:34.700 | you're looking at the detail.
00:40:36.460 | You can ask your student,
00:40:37.900 | "Okay, is there anything on this page that you see
00:40:40.860 | "that would remind you of God?
00:40:43.500 | "Or is there anything on this page
00:40:46.180 | "that would remind you of a math topic?"
00:40:49.540 | And just see what kind of connections they can make.
00:40:53.100 | And we don't have to give them any, right?
00:40:55.060 | We could just let them talk.
00:40:56.980 | And so there's no preconceived conversation
00:41:00.660 | you have to have.
00:41:01.500 | It's just whatever they come up with.
00:41:03.860 | And I'll just tell you,
00:41:05.540 | so we've talked about how we've piloted
00:41:08.140 | for like four or five years.
00:41:10.260 | And we use the same art every single year.
00:41:12.620 | So you would think,
00:41:13.540 | "Oh, this conversation's gonna be the same."
00:41:15.780 | - Right, 30 pictures.
00:41:17.820 | I mean, aren't we gonna run out of things to say?
00:41:20.420 | - Right, well, every year my kids say something different.
00:41:25.100 | It's a different group of kids.
00:41:26.220 | They're looking at the same art,
00:41:27.620 | but they don't have the same connections.
00:41:29.140 | They come at it from a different experience, right?
00:41:32.660 | We all have different backgrounds.
00:41:34.060 | We all have lots of different denominations, right?
00:41:38.180 | - Yeah, that's true.
00:41:39.740 | - We all have a different aspect.
00:41:40.940 | And so we're bringing something different to the table.
00:41:43.020 | I would even say, if you do it on Monday,
00:41:46.140 | you talk about the art with your family on Monday,
00:41:48.180 | maybe do it again on Friday
00:41:50.500 | and see if anything changed, right?
00:41:52.740 | Because now they've done
00:41:53.700 | some of the calculation pages in the middle.
00:41:56.100 | Is there something else?
00:41:57.380 | And do they see another connection, right?
00:42:00.380 | - Wow.
00:42:01.220 | - I think it's the most important.
00:42:02.500 | I mean, honestly, you're finding connections
00:42:05.060 | 'cause we want to see God in math.
00:42:07.780 | And so we're starting with that art picture.
00:42:10.900 | So I think that's the most important.
00:42:13.260 | - Oh, wow.
00:42:14.100 | That is so cool.
00:42:15.300 | I like it that you brought out the whole idea,
00:42:19.100 | that conversation.
00:42:20.580 | The conversation seems to be a real,
00:42:25.580 | a thing that families really come to love
00:42:29.580 | about doing the Math Map together
00:42:33.020 | is that it initiates a lot of really good conversations.
00:42:37.220 | And I can see that that piece of art
00:42:39.420 | would really call forth a lot of conversations
00:42:44.420 | that could go in a lot of different areas
00:42:46.860 | and a lot of different directions.
00:42:49.020 | - And what I love about doing it in Challenge A
00:42:51.540 | is we kind of start the conversation,
00:42:54.260 | but then we want the kids to go home
00:42:55.740 | and continue to talk about it.
00:42:57.140 | - Oh, yeah.
00:42:58.260 | - Because I have had the opportunity
00:43:01.180 | to kind of present the gospel
00:43:02.700 | to some students in Challenge A.
00:43:04.820 | - Oh, wow.
00:43:05.660 | I'm 100% sure they had really heard the whole gospel, right?
00:43:09.340 | - Yeah.
00:43:10.180 | - So there's so many opportunities
00:43:12.780 | to point our students back to God
00:43:14.780 | and then say, "Okay, now go ask your parents what they see."
00:43:18.500 | And then that way the conversation can continue.
00:43:21.420 | - Yes, that is really cool.
00:43:23.900 | All right.
00:43:24.740 | So that's really good.
00:43:28.940 | Those are practical things to do every day.
00:43:31.820 | Practice some kind of flashcard,
00:43:33.820 | some kind of calculation or grammar.
00:43:37.140 | That's really good.
00:43:38.140 | Do the art, look at it, have conversations.
00:43:42.540 | That really primes the pump.
00:43:43.820 | What am I supposed to do though when I get stuck?
00:43:48.060 | Say I am a parent and we read the instructions.
00:43:52.700 | We are tracing and we are copying
00:43:57.700 | and we are reading and tracing and copying.
00:44:01.300 | But then my child asks me a question.
00:44:04.260 | Well, what does this weird symbol mean?
00:44:06.580 | When will I ever see that?
00:44:08.060 | Or what will I do with that?
00:44:09.580 | And we don't know the answer.
00:44:11.780 | What do I do as a parent when I feel stuck or unsure?
00:44:16.780 | - Okay.
00:44:18.900 | Well, there's lots of things,
00:44:21.540 | lots of resources that we can use.
00:44:23.260 | So the first thing I would say is the naturals,
00:44:27.060 | which that's like the five, six-year-old curriculum.
00:44:29.420 | Sometimes if you're looking at it
00:44:32.220 | and you're copying and tracing,
00:44:33.460 | sometimes answers to questions are in there.
00:44:36.940 | Like sometimes you're copying a definition.
00:44:39.460 | And then sometimes you can look at how a symbol
00:44:43.340 | is being used and you can kind of figure out
00:44:45.700 | how it's being used.
00:44:47.300 | So I actually have told some of my Challenge A parents,
00:44:50.860 | print off the naturals and just use it as a resource.
00:44:54.220 | Leave it beside your student.
00:44:56.060 | If we're working on lesson, I think we just did lesson 10,
00:44:59.180 | print off the naturals, lesson 10,
00:45:00.620 | and let your student have it beside them
00:45:03.260 | while they're doing your complex,
00:45:05.940 | and just let them use it as a reference,
00:45:07.340 | 'cause it could be helpful.
00:45:09.020 | We can always use the solutions.
00:45:11.220 | And this is so tricky because people will say,
00:45:13.220 | well, that's cheating.
00:45:14.340 | If I get out the solutions as cheating,
00:45:17.380 | and I've said this so many times, it's kind of hilarious.
00:45:19.940 | My kids hear it when I say it,
00:45:21.740 | is that obviously we've been cheating in Latin
00:45:24.460 | this whole time because we don't do Latin
00:45:26.380 | without the answer key.
00:45:27.220 | - I know, right, because how will we know
00:45:29.460 | if we've really screwed it up?
00:45:31.380 | - Right, and I mean, honestly,
00:45:32.660 | I think I've purchased three or four
00:45:35.060 | different answer keys for Latin.
00:45:36.860 | - Oh, yeah.
00:45:37.700 | - And so we have them out on the tables,
00:45:39.380 | because there's, when you translate,
00:45:41.300 | there's, it can be translated in different ways.
00:45:43.980 | So sometimes there's a little variety.
00:45:46.020 | - Sure, sure.
00:45:46.860 | - But using the solutions and working backwards sometimes
00:45:50.900 | can really help you understand what you're looking at.
00:45:54.100 | - Yes, it shows you where,
00:45:56.340 | something that seemed like a magic or a miracle
00:46:01.340 | was just hard work.
00:46:02.860 | It was just a connection you didn't see at first.
00:46:06.340 | But when you go back, like when I tutored
00:46:09.340 | Challenge B for years and years,
00:46:10.820 | and when we got to the really hard proofs
00:46:13.420 | at the end of the formal logic,
00:46:15.700 | I would say if you're doing this without the answer key,
00:46:19.660 | you are doing it the hard way.
00:46:21.540 | I mean, if you can't get it, I mean,
00:46:23.500 | I want you to try for 20 minutes.
00:46:25.340 | I want you to try.
00:46:26.820 | But if you can't get it, go look at the answer key
00:46:29.580 | and see if you can understand why that is the answer,
00:46:33.700 | because that will help you do it the front way next time.
00:46:38.020 | - Right.
00:46:38.860 | And speaking of Challenge B,
00:46:40.420 | so many of those symbols in that logic book
00:46:43.780 | are in the Math Map.
00:46:45.580 | - How cool is that?
00:46:47.420 | - If you've had a Challenge B student going through
00:46:49.220 | and you just download the naturals,
00:46:50.780 | you're like, "Oh, I know what this is.
00:46:52.220 | "I've seen it before."
00:46:53.220 | You know? - Uh-huh.
00:46:55.020 | - So there's also, we have the companion.
00:46:57.900 | The companion's an online resource
00:46:59.780 | that does have a glossary.
00:47:01.500 | So you could look up some notations there
00:47:04.660 | if you wanted to do that. - Okay.
00:47:07.820 | - And then another stuck is,
00:47:11.140 | you know how in Essentials we copy charts?
00:47:14.060 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:15.740 | - We can copy the solutions from our lesson pages.
00:47:20.140 | And so think about this.
00:47:21.220 | Like, let's say I'm a parent.
00:47:23.660 | Let's say I work, right?
00:47:24.940 | And I'm not really gonna sit down with my student
00:47:26.980 | the entire time he does math.
00:47:28.100 | So I'm gonna tell him,
00:47:29.300 | "Okay, this is what I want you to do.
00:47:30.940 | "Pages one through four,
00:47:32.300 | "I just want you to copy the answers.
00:47:34.660 | "Look at the answer key and just copy the answer.
00:47:37.220 | "Put it in there.
00:47:38.460 | "That's all I want you to do today.
00:47:40.420 | "And then tomorrow, I want you to see
00:47:42.780 | "if you can do the next four pages by yourself."
00:47:46.180 | So what I've had my student do is,
00:47:50.460 | like, page one and page five are the same.
00:47:53.740 | So if I copied page one yesterday
00:47:56.260 | and the same stuff I'm gonna see today on page five,
00:48:00.140 | maybe my student is like,
00:48:01.580 | "Oh, I saw this yesterday and I remember copying it.
00:48:04.380 | "Now I know what to do."
00:48:05.860 | - Oh, yeah.
00:48:08.060 | And that's what you meant about the repeating nature of it.
00:48:11.540 | They're gonna see the same information in the lesson.
00:48:16.380 | It really is building.
00:48:18.980 | - It is.
00:48:19.820 | So like one, two, three, four are the first four, right?
00:48:22.860 | Then you've got five, six, seven, and eight.
00:48:24.980 | So one and five are the same.
00:48:27.460 | Two and six are the same.
00:48:29.060 | Three and seven are the same.
00:48:30.620 | Four and eight are the same.
00:48:31.820 | And so it's that way all the way to page 16.
00:48:34.860 | - I see the pattern there, Barb.
00:48:37.300 | Okay.
00:48:38.580 | - Yeah.
00:48:39.420 | So that's, I mean, I feel like that's another,
00:48:42.260 | if you feel like you're stuck, right?
00:48:44.220 | Is that you can get out the answer key
00:48:45.860 | and just let them copy.
00:48:47.140 | And then another thing too, just if you feel stuck,
00:48:51.180 | is instead of using, let's say you're using
00:48:53.420 | the complex domain for challenge A,
00:48:54.900 | and it's, "Oh, I feel like all they're doing
00:48:57.180 | "is just copying."
00:48:58.100 | Well, maybe I should go to a lower domain.
00:49:00.140 | Maybe I should try fractions and just see
00:49:03.020 | if they can do any of that on their own.
00:49:05.300 | - Huh, okay.
00:49:06.820 | - There's so many different things that you can do.
00:49:11.660 | You don't, like I said before about the freedom,
00:49:13.900 | like you have the freedom to move around different domains
00:49:17.620 | and all that.
00:49:18.460 | And then if all else fails, come to the book club
00:49:21.500 | and ask Lee and Percy your question live.
00:49:24.900 | - That is so good.
00:49:25.820 | And that brings me to the last thing
00:49:27.500 | that I really wanted to ask about.
00:49:28.740 | And you've mentioned these sprinkled
00:49:31.180 | through our conversation.
00:49:33.380 | What are the support resources that are out there for us
00:49:37.300 | as we get used to this?
00:49:38.980 | What support resources can we as parents avail ourselves of
00:49:45.300 | as we get used to learning math classically?
00:49:48.300 | - So Shauna and I monitor this email address,
00:49:52.100 | themathmap@classicalconversations.com.
00:49:55.420 | Anybody can email us there.
00:49:57.300 | As a matter of fact, we've even gotten questions
00:49:59.700 | from people who don't go to CC.
00:50:01.820 | - Oh my gosh.
00:50:02.660 | - And they're like, "Hey, can we use the Math Map?"
00:50:04.420 | And we're like, "Well, anybody can buy it, right?"
00:50:07.420 | - Yes.
00:50:08.260 | - So anybody can email us there,
00:50:11.140 | whether you're a parent or a director,
00:50:13.380 | anybody can email us there.
00:50:15.260 | We also have forums on CC Connected
00:50:18.980 | where parents and directors can ask questions there.
00:50:22.260 | Inside the companion on the first four pages,
00:50:25.820 | Kirstie has added videos for the tops.
00:50:29.180 | So if I still crave that didactic,
00:50:32.700 | like teach me, tell me what to do,
00:50:34.740 | I can go look at the tops of the first four pages
00:50:37.100 | of that booklet and she's got little videos
00:50:39.180 | that explain those problems at the top.
00:50:42.140 | So that's another good resource.
00:50:44.020 | - Okay.
00:50:45.260 | - And then also inside the companion, it's clickable.
00:50:47.820 | So all the pages, I can click on different pages,
00:50:50.740 | like I can click on the charts,
00:50:52.620 | I can click on the beginning two I pages
00:50:55.660 | that are like references and it gives me some extra helps.
00:50:59.900 | - Okay.
00:51:00.940 | - So there, and then obviously, like I said,
00:51:02.660 | the last thing is come to the book club.
00:51:04.620 | - Yes.
00:51:05.460 | - Listen to Kirstie, ask them directly.
00:51:08.100 | And I mean, the last, I don't know,
00:51:10.540 | probably five book clubs,
00:51:11.980 | Kirstie stayed on an extra 30 minutes
00:51:14.180 | just to let people ask questions.
00:51:16.380 | And she wants to make sure everybody
00:51:17.540 | gets their questions answered.
00:51:18.940 | - Oh, that is so good.
00:51:21.340 | So there's a ton of support for us.
00:51:24.380 | If we really want to do it,
00:51:26.700 | but it's hard and we're anxious and we struggle
00:51:29.420 | or we have a question,
00:51:30.940 | there are lots of places for us to get help.
00:51:35.180 | That's awesome.
00:51:36.300 | That is really awesome.
00:51:37.300 | Thank you, Babs, so much.
00:51:38.980 | I feel a lot better about helping my students
00:51:43.860 | learn from the Math Map and I feel a lot better.
00:51:47.580 | I think all our listeners feel better
00:51:49.860 | about having other resources
00:51:52.260 | to help us make this transition.
00:51:54.300 | I really, I really appreciate this.
00:51:57.380 | Listeners, I hope that you have benefited
00:52:01.900 | and I hope that you will pass along
00:52:04.340 | the information that you've learned
00:52:06.060 | or maybe even pass along the link to this podcast
00:52:10.100 | to a friend who might be struggling
00:52:12.540 | with the whole idea of learning math classically.
00:52:17.060 | And I know that you're busy
00:52:19.100 | and I know that as much as we all want
00:52:21.420 | to learn more about classical education
00:52:25.460 | and steep ourselves in the classical model,
00:52:28.220 | we get busy and sometimes as parents,
00:52:30.460 | we don't have a lot of extra time to read for ourselves.
00:52:34.780 | So I want to let you know about something
00:52:38.700 | that you can listen to and get your classical ed built up.
00:52:43.700 | We have got a way for you to hear
00:52:50.940 | some of our CC Catalog articles on audio.
00:52:55.980 | We know life's busy and we don't want you to miss out
00:53:00.100 | on the great articles that are coming out
00:53:02.180 | in the 2025 Catalog.
00:53:05.140 | Articles like "What is Classical Conversations?"
00:53:08.340 | "The Need for Community,"
00:53:10.740 | "The Skills to Love Your Neighbor."
00:53:13.380 | There are tons of articles that will equip you
00:53:16.620 | and encourage you no matter where you are
00:53:19.940 | on the homeschool journey.
00:53:21.420 | You can download our audio versions
00:53:24.820 | of the articles from the Catalog
00:53:26.860 | and listen while you're in the car
00:53:28.940 | or mowing the grass or working out, whatever.
00:53:33.460 | Listen wherever you stream podcasts.
00:53:36.860 | You can search "Classical Conversations Catalog Podcast"
00:53:41.860 | or you can go to classicalconversations/catalog-articles.com.
00:53:47.300 | Okay, that's classicalconversations/catalog-articles.com.
00:53:57.380 | And we can all keep learning together.
00:54:02.380 | Just like you learned about the Math Map from Babs today.
00:54:05.420 | Babs, thank you so much for being with me.
00:54:07.740 | I appreciate all your knowledge.
00:54:10.180 | - Absolutely, it was fun.
00:54:11.540 | - It was a good encouragement to all of us.
00:54:13.580 | Listeners, I'll see you next week
00:54:15.340 | with some more equipping and encouraging.
00:54:18.460 | Bye-bye.
00:54:19.300 | (soft music)
00:54:21.700 | (soft music)
00:54:24.100 | (soft music)
00:54:26.500 | [BLANK_AUDIO]