(upbeat music) - Welcome friends to this episode of the "Everyday Educator" podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Bailey, and I'm excited to spend some time with you today as we encourage one another, learn together, and ponder the delights and challenges that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime. Whether you're just considering this homeschooling possibility, or deep into the daily delight of family learning, I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.

But don't forget, although this online community is awesome, you'll find even closer support in a local CC community. So, go to classicalconversations.com and find a community near you today. Well, listeners, I'm excited to welcome you to this episode of the "Everyday Educator" podcast, and I'm excited to introduce you to my friend, Barbara Harrell.

Barbara is gonna talk to us, or help us explore the math map. Navigating the math map is exciting and scary and beautiful and confounding. It's all of the things. And so, Babs is gonna help us know what we need to know about embarking on this new adventure to learn math more classically.

Babs, thank you so much for being with me today. - Absolutely, I'm honored. I'm honored to be here. - So, how long have you been homeschooling, Babs? - So, I was just telling somebody forever because my oldest, he just graduated last year, and we started when he was five, and we started with CC.

So, we went to a, it was like a curriculum fair. And this was when a lot of stuff had changed, has changed over the years. But when we first started, the biggest thing that drew me was she was talking about history and how they did this timeline and how it included not just history that we probably know all about, but it also included biblical history.

And honestly, I wanted to sign up for myself 'cause I didn't know, right? I was always separating the two. And so, I wanted to do it for myself and then having my kids do it was a bonus, so. - Isn't that funny? I'm sort of the same way. I was really intrigued with that whole integration idea and using history kind of like a spine and branching off and studying all these different things, government and literature and science and language, all based off the spine of a timeline.

So yeah, I was really intrigued by that too. That's really cool. Well, and so you, were you looking, did you know that you were looking for a classical education when you started homeschooling? - No, I didn't even know what classical education was. And as a matter of fact, when we first had my oldest son, we did not plan to homeschool and I wasn't even sure I was gonna stay home.

And then once he arrived and I just couldn't imagine going back to work. And then the church that we were attending at the time had so many homeschoolers there that the thought was planted and then we just started looking into it. So yeah, never planned on homeschooling and didn't really know what classical education was.

And honestly, I'll say it probably took me at least five years to kind of really understand what classical education is, was, and can be. And I feel like we're all still learning, especially now with the math math. - Yes, I was gonna say that. When our girls were born, I started reading about homeschooling.

I had friends who were doing it who said, "Oh, you'd be a natural, you're already doing it. "I watch you with your kids "and you love to teach them things." And that was true. But I had read a little bit about classical education, but I didn't really know it.

I didn't really fully get it. Even like you said, even when we signed up, I was still learning about the classical model. And I still feel like I am getting better and better as I go farther and farther in. I have a richer and deeper understanding now. But this whole idea, okay, of a classical math curriculum sort of blew my mind when I heard Lee talking about this some years ago.

So that's what we want you to help us navigate today, the whole idea of how a math curriculum is classical and how different that is and how do we get over it being so different and why is it so wonderful and all of that stuff. But before I jump in in the middle, I wanna ask you, 'cause Babs, you are a specialist in the math.

Tell people what you do with classical conversations now so they'll know why they should listen to you about the math now. - Okay, so I guess to start, like just so everybody knows, like I don't have a master's in math or a doctorate or anything like that. I am going to school to get my master's.

I don't really know what my concentration is yet, but so I'm just a regular homeschool mom. And when about five years ago, I started working with Lee and Kirstie in the pilot. And honestly, the very first meeting we had, my area representative, he asked, did I wanna be a part of a pilot?

And I said, yes, but I really didn't know it was math. And so when we had this very first meeting and they were talking about it, I was like, I think I might be in the wrong place. I was thinking they probably need people who feel like they're very well-versed in mathematics.

And I did not feel that way. But the response was, no, no, no, we need people to realize that anybody can learn math. You don't have to be this expert that went to school to get your doctorate in math, that anybody can learn mathematics. And so that was the kind of the start.

And so we worked through the pilot, we've been piloting for like four years and in different communities all over the United States. And so now I get to be what the title is a curriculum assistant. And so what I do is just help directors as they're getting ready to launch, directing using the new complex materials.

We answer questions from parents, we answer questions from directors, really anybody that has questions, they email us, we have orientations for directors. So really just kind of supporting the directors and families as they're trying to learn this new curriculum. And Shauna Howell, she's the other curriculum assistant, she works with me, we're a really good team.

She has a lot of different experience than I do. And so she brings a lot of different things to the table, but between the two of us, we try to answer questions. And really, again, we're just regular moms. And so it's not like-- - I love that. - You know, we don't have that.

I will say I've learned more in the mathematics field over the last five years than I ever learned when I was in school. - Oh my gosh, but see, that is so encouraging. I wanted people to hear all that stuff that you said, that you are a quote unquote regular person, that you're not a math genius, that you didn't have a PhD, that you didn't have a master's in math when you started.

And in fact, you never thought of yourself as particularly mathy when you started this. So the math map is not a curriculum for quote unquote math people, but for all people, 'cause you are that person. And so are most of us. So how, you said something while you were talking that I've heard people say before, I've heard Lee say it before, and there were times when I thought, yeah, right.

But I believe it more and more now. You said, Babs, that math is really for all of us. So why is math really for all of us? And how does the math map help us discover that? - So I feel like, okay, when you think about, well, today's Halloween, we're recording this on Halloween.

And it always makes me think about like Reformation Day. And honestly, I knew nothing about Reformation Day until we started CC. So just gotta make that known. But I think about back then, we had priests who felt like they were the only ones who could have access to the Bible and they were just gonna tell people what they wanted to know, right?

Or what they wanted them to know. And we know how that ended, right? - Yes. - So I feel like with math, our whole lives, we've got these experts sometimes telling us, well, I'm not really sure that you're smart enough to know all these advanced things. So we're gonna teach you addition and subtraction and multiplication and division, maybe a little geometry, maybe a little bit of algebra, but all these other advanced things, we're gonna save for some smarter people.

And I feel like that's why we feel like we're not math people, because we don't get to that, the more advanced things. And so I feel like with the math, what they've done is they just, they lay it all out there. This is everything you could possibly wanna know in the mathematics field.

And now we get to decide, like, what do I wanna do? Do I wanna dig in deeper and learn about a derivative or an integral, which honestly, vocabulary never heard of before the math math? - Yes, yes. - And so, I feel like there are these groups out there that kinda wanna say, no, it's not for all people.

But what the math math does is say, no, it is for you. And another thing too, is that like, God is a God of order. And so I feel like He's like the first mathematician, right? And so if He had this creation and He had this order and He's created all these things that are related to math, why do I not get to study it?

And so the math math brings all that together, right? We're trying to learn how to see God in math. We're actually using art and trying to see, like look at an art picture, how is this related to math? How is this related to God? And so really just bringing all these connections together.

And so I feel like that is, that's why, God created this. And so He wants us to know. He wouldn't just create something and say, well, I'm gonna create this, but I don't really want you to know about it, right? - Or I'm gonna create it for some of you and hide it from others of you.

- Right, no. - Yeah, that is so beautiful. - I think too, one thing that the math math does, which I don't think anybody else does this, is we're all studying the same topic on the same week. And so like, if I have a five-year-old and I have a 16-year-old, we have the same concept that we're looking at this week.

Now, obviously the five-year-old's lesson pages are gonna look a little different than my 16-year-old, but they're studying the same concept. And so I can dig as deep as I want to. That five-year-old, if he really enjoys that topic, I can let him keep going, right? And so I think that's another way we can use this curriculum to bring our family together and try to have those conversations together and help each other.

Wouldn't it be cool if the 16-year-old helped the five-year-old? - Yes, because they will probably remember better than we what it was like to understand like a five-year-old and be able to see where they are, but where they could go with it. That's really cool. I love the whole idea that math is for everyone because God is for everyone.

And God created the order and the beauty in the world for us to discover and for us to participate in. I really liked what you said, and we'll explore it a little bit more, Babs, about the math map making more math accessible to more of us using lots of different avenues.

Like you talked about art. I just think that that is one way that the math map does make math for everyone because it realizes that there might be a different hook that will grab all of us. We might be pulled into mathematical thinking or even into a thought that we never considered as a math thought before this curriculum.

- And there's a project we have called Seeing the Unseen. - Yeah. - It's at the end of the year. And a lot of our kids who really love art, they kind of thrive in this area because they've learned all year how to find these connections. Like how can I see God in the art?

How can I see God in the math? But in this project, they can draw, they can find pictures of where they see God in math or where they see God in art, but it's all about this project. And so I think a lot of our students enjoy that project because it's not just calculation.

It's not just I'm having a bunch of problems and I'm writing it down. This is a creative project. So if you do have those creative students, then they get to shine during that time. So they can either draw, like if they're a really good drawer artist, they can paint.

Or if they're not so great at that, they can find pictures in magazines. - Right. - And so that kind of thing. So I feel like that's another way it can be accessible to everybody. We're using that project to kind of bring everybody together, whatever talents they have, bringing them to the table there.

- I like that. I like that. Now, I know that you guys, you and Shawna and some other people are helping families that have gone ahead and dipped their toe into the math map who are getting immersed in this brand new curriculum this year. You guys are helping. But there are a lot of us that are just kind of, we're not there yet.

Maybe we don't have a student who is using the math map for their math education this year. And we're just kind of hanging back and we're watching to see how it goes. And some people are a little anxious about making a big change in a subject like math. What's the biggest misconception about the math map among people who've heard about it but haven't experienced it yet?

- So I think there's really two big things that I hear. One is that, well, CC is really only doing this to make money so they can have their own curriculum. And really, there's lots of reasons why we have this curriculum and we can talk about it. But I think if you come to the book clubs and you get to hear Lee and Kirstie, and you really get to hear their heart behind why they're even here and offering their support, you would really know that it's not about money.

And I would say too, like I said, I've only been working on the math map for five years but they've been working on it much longer than that. And we just started making money. Like as soon as the complex came out, that was the very first time we ever made money.

So how many years have you been spending money? - Lee has spent so much money to develop this curriculum that she feels so strongly about. - Yes, and I think a lot of parents, I wanna say Shauna found this statistic somewhere about how many families are so apprehensive about math.

And so, they wanna kind of help in that regard and not make families feel so apprehensive about math because a lot of us, honestly, that's the first thing we outsource. We look at math, we're like, well, I'm not a math person, and so I'm just gonna outsource it. But I think we're missing so many of the blessings of trying to teach our kids math.

And so that's one thing that I think Lee and Kirstie do. But another thing too is the conversations, the common conversations that we get to have, not just with our families at home, but in community. So now that we're using this in Challenge A, all of our kiddos, we're all doing the same curriculum.

We all can help each other. We have a director that's there to offer support. And so, that's another great reason to have our own curriculum. And then also the thing about copyright, we can't really provide support to other math curriculums out there because they have their own, right? And there's a lot of copyright infringement.

So now that we have our own, we're not, we don't have to do that. So, but so that's one thing is that, I don't, I'm pretty sure that was not the intent. It's gonna make money, even though we just started making money now, and it's, I'm sure there's been a lot more spent than what we've made.

- Sure. - I think the second one too is just looking at math and just saying, it's too hard. Like I just can't do it. And I remember, I don't, I think it was a book club that Lee, Lee said this. She said, if you think about how hard it is to be a new believer, like a new student of the Bible, it takes a lifetime to understand the Bible, right?

And then the more we read the Bible, the more we get closer to Christ and we just dig, dig, dig, right? - Yes. - And I feel like, you know, obviously we don't wanna compare the math map to the Bible. - Right, but it's not what you're saying, I know.

- It's not, it's not what I'm saying. But if we look at it in that way, you know, this is gonna be new in the beginning. I'm learning alongside my student, then I can say, okay, it might be hard, but we can do it together and we can do a little bit at a time, right?

I can learn a little bit this year, we'll learn a little bit next year. And sometimes our kids surpass us and that's okay. - Yes. I think our kids sometimes surpass us because we have expectations as grownups. And I do think people will look at the math map, Babs, and see it and think, now what?

That is not math like I ever saw it. I can hear people say, I know I'm not a math person, but this does not look like math to me. This is not what I'm used to. And so it's unfamiliar and unfamiliar things are hard. And sometimes for some of us, unfamiliar things are anxiety producing because they don't meet the expectations that we've always had.

And so we think, I don't know how that's gonna work. It clearly doesn't work the way I've always seen math programs work. And so I, as a grownup, am a little suspicious. Oh yes, I'm a little suspicious. How is this gonna turn out? Whereas kids are like, cool, I get to trace this.

What is that weird symbol? Let's trace it with red. Let's talk about that. Let's find it on this page again. They just go with the flow. And we, as grownups, demand to understand everything. And that, y'all, that's not the classical way. The classical way is that we get the grammar and we learn in layers and slowly.

So what is the MathMaps Claim to Fame? Is it that it's a classical curriculum? - It is. I mean, I really think it's probably the first or only one that I know of that's Christian and classical. And that provides that one-room schoolhouse opportunity if parents want it. There are parents who don't want it, who don't want one-room schoolhouse.

I get it. - Okay. - You get to a point where you're seventh grade, you wanna start letting them be more independent, and that's okay. But for those families who do want the one-room schoolhouse, this is really, I think, is the only one I've ever seen. - Yeah. - Where we're all studying the same concept.

- Yes, yes. So how is it classical? How is the MathMap classical? You said it's the only one, and it's the only one I've ever seen. So how is the MathMap classical? And why is it so hard for us to wrap our minds around a curriculum that's classical, a math curriculum that's classical?

- Most of us are used to instructor-led, I think the technical term is didactic teaching. - Yes. - And so that's, you know, a teacher stands at the front of the room and she lectures. He or she is telling us exactly what we need to know and why, and so that's what we're all used to.

But that's not classical. And so really, to learn classically is we start with, what do I already know? We look at a problem that's completed and we look at all the steps, and then we compare it to a problem that doesn't have all the steps. We look for patterns.

And this can lead to a light bulb, right? I can discover on my own how this problem works just by comparing and looking. And nobody told me, nobody told me, I discovered it on my own. And I think when we discover it on our own, it lasts, right? We remember, if somebody else gives me a mnemonic, maybe I'll get it, maybe I won't, right?

But if I come up with this mnemonic that helps me with whatever I'm trying to learn, then I feel like it sticks, right? And so I think that's the big difference is we don't have somebody just standing over us saying, this is exactly how to do it, and this is what you should do.

We're discovering it on our own. And yes, that is scary because this is math, right? And so I need to really attend, right? I need to slow down, look for the patterns, look at all the steps, and then we get a deeper understanding. And so I think that's why it's hard for us to wrap our minds around, because number one, it's gonna take time, right?

It's not gonna be where I just throw my kid in front of a screen and let somebody teach them, or even just give them a textbook and say, read it and do it. Now, they're actually gonna have to slow down, right? Lead the directions, look at the patterns, figure out what they already know, and then looking for those patterns kind of leads to the light bulb.

So I think that's a big reason why it's hard for us to wrap our minds around, 'cause most of us have not been taught that way. - Yes, yes. You're right, you're right. We aren't, we are taught, listen to the teacher, do what she does, and do that to all of the problems that look like that.

But nobody ever says, here are two different equations, or here are two different shapes, or here are two different number sentences. What do you see that are alike? What about what you learned from last week? What was alike in that one? - You're right, you're right. But it is so different.

I think that's why it's hard for us to wrap our minds around it. It's not what we're used to. And so we're a little fearful that it won't work out. But here's the thing, all you classical parents who have been teaching your children to read classically, and you've been teaching your children to study science and history classically, you've had your kids in foundations since they were four years old, and now they're 12 or 13, and you can look back and see, man, my child really does understand pieces of history.

And it all started 'cause they just memorized something. You fully believed that the classical model, you now would tell somebody the classical model works, y'all. It works. I know you just think that your rote memorization, they're not really learning, but they are. Can you give the math map that same chance?

Can you learn math classically alongside your child and trust that the understanding is gonna grow as the grasp of grammar grows? I think that's just really cool. Okay, Babs, let me ask you this. Say I believe it, I want to do this. I want my family to transition to the math map.

What is your best tip for making the switch? Is it gonna be painless? And look, the giveaway answer to that is no, nothing is painless, that's worth it. But what are the three big things that I need to do or keep in mind as we transition? I think the first thing is to remember that we are all learning how to teach math classically together.

That's the biggest thing. I really feel like that's because, again, it's just brand new. Most of us have not done it before. We're all learning together. If you have an opportunity to listen to Lee or Kirstie talk about the math map and their heart, there's lots of videos on CC Connected, some are on YouTube, but really they just talk about their heart.

They talk about why we have the math map and teaching classically. And I think that's the first thing. Practically though, I think we have the naturals curriculum, which is for ages five to six and older, that's kind of one of the beginning ones, is downloading that, printing out the pages and just doing them together.

Read, copy, trace. I remember there were a couple of times where I would go to Kirstie and I would have a question and she would say, "Did you read the directions?" (laughs) And I was like, "I'm sure I did." I go back and no, it just told me to read it or it just told me to copy it.

What I was trying to do- - Probably not to teach it or understand it. - What I was trying to do was figure everything out this first time I'm looking at it, but all it really told me to do was read or copy or trace. And so I think that would be the second thing practically is downloading the naturals and just reading the directions and going through it.

You as a parent and then your kids as students. And then the third thing I think is to go to the book clubs. The book clubs are amazing. Right now, we're in the middle of where they're going through what it would look like in community, using the in-community outline for these challenging kids.

And what I just love about it is Kirstie steps through what we're doing, but then she has a time at the end for question and answers. And even if you don't bring a question, if you just listen. - Yes, yes. - The questions and answers are so helpful. And I remember one in particular, there was a, we kind of talked about this earlier, but there was a mom that she said, "I'm just thankful that I have the opportunity because I feel robbed." Like, I never knew that I could learn about God through a math curriculum.

And so I feel robbed, like all these years, I've hated math and I didn't want to do math. And now I realize I can do this math curriculum and I can learn more about God. And so she was kind of like really emotional. You know, like, I'm upset because it took me this long in my life to realize that I could have been doing this all along.

So I would say, you know, going to the book clubs, they're encouraging. So, you know, watching introductory videos, downloading the naturals. And then if you can, attending a book club would be my top three. - That's really good because it really does help to hear what other people's experiences are like.

That's one reason you can go. So you don't feel alone when you don't quite get it or when you can say out loud, this is not what I remember about math. I mean, or for you to be able to say out loud, my child asked me this question and I don't know the answer and this curriculum is not giving me the answer.

And to hear Kirstie say, well, what this curriculum is asking you to do right now is read and copy and trace and just to relax in that. So I love it. I think you're right. It does help. It helps to hear the vision. But like you said, it helps us to see the practical, to get an answer to our question or to be encouraged on how to find our own answer.

That's really cool. I love the story about the mom who's just really glad that now she has the opportunity to see the Lord and to learn about Him as she does math. Is that the kind of thing, what is it that parents like best about the math map? - Oh, there's so many things.

So one is, we always hear in CC about redeeming your own education, reclaiming it, right? And so I think that's a big thing. But what they like about it with their children is the conversations they get to have. And that just starts with looking at the art, right? They're looking at the art, they're finding connections.

And if you have multiple kids, different ages, you're gonna get all kinds of things on the spectrum. And so just talking through those together, I think the parents love those conversations. And honestly, there are some families that are like, oh, it's just, there's a lot for me to take in, that's where I'm gonna start.

That's the only thing I'm gonna do this year is I'm gonna do the conversations first, right? - Oh, that's good. - And so I think, if you feel overwhelmed, then just start there, right? 'Cause that's one thing that parents say, that's the best. The other thing is like the freedom because so like there's 16 lesson pages, but the first four are like the brand new stuff.

And then the rest of them kind of repeat the same thing that's on those first four. We have that repetition, that's part of being classical. Well, as a parent, I don't have to do all these pages. Like if we do the first four and I feel like, okay, they've been introduced, let's just say I only do the next four.

Well, I've still got repetition in there. I don't technically have to tell them they have to do all the other pages, right? So I get to decide. I get to choose how many pages my kids do, which order they do them in. And I feel like parents want that freedom, but they've been scared to say, well, you only have to do the odds or the evens thinking they're gonna miss them.

But now they feel like they do have more freedom because they know they're not gonna miss anything if they cover those first four pages. - They've got the new material. - Yeah, they've got the new stuff. And then next year they're gonna see it again, next year they're gonna see it again, right?

And so they're not gonna miss anything. - Yes, I love that. The building nature of the curriculum that you're always revisiting and reminding. And so I know, you know, that's what makes regular math curriculum kind of hard to teach as a group activity because somebody's gonna get it right away and somebody's gonna get it eventually and somebody's never gonna get it.

But in a class, everybody's gonna move on. And so you never know if the concept that your child sort of got is enough. But with the math map, your student, your child is gonna see all of these concepts again. And they are gonna have lots of visiting with each new idea.

- And it's not just each year, like we'll see something in an early lesson that we're gonna see again in three or four lessons down the road. So they're still gonna see it again, right? So I don't even have to wait until next year. I just know that they're gonna see it again, right?

- I love that, I love that. And maybe even see it in a different way because we know that we don't all learn the same way. Sometimes I will listen to my husband explain something to one of my kids and just think, "Yeah, I still don't know what in the world you're talking about." But the kid is like, "Oh, yeah." But like her sister will be looking like, "You just started talking like Charlie Brown's teacher.

Wah, wah, wah, wah, I don't even know." And so that child will look at me and say, "I mean, will you try to explain it to me? 'Cause I don't understand daddy's way." And so I love it that the math map will give our students multiple ways to approach a new concept so that it is hospitable to everybody.

That's great. Well, let me ask you this. What do kids, have you gotten much feedback from kids in the home who are doing the math map? What do they like the best about math map? - So one of the things that I heard early on was that they liked the fact that when CC's done, they are done with math.

Because there were 30 booklets for 30 weeks of challenge. Whereas in Saxon, we had, well, sometimes 120, sometimes 140, depending on what level you were on. And so I feel we were always behind in math. Because we have one community day in the middle of the week. And so you already are kind of behind, you gotta double up somewhere.

Life happens, and then you don't always get to do one lesson every day. So we end up doing, we were doing math all summer long. - Yes, yes. - And that is exhausting. - Yes, you're never done, you're never done. Yep. - So now, I mean, that's the thing I think the kids like is they don't feel like they're behind and they're done, right?

Now, I will say this for parents, just so parents know, like, if you don't do all the pages during the year, if you want to have your kids keep working, you still have extra pages in there that they could do, right, if you, you know, want your student. 'Cause you know, sometimes if we go all summer and don't do anything, we forget.

- Yeah, you get rusty. - Yeah. So, you know, you can still review stuff, but I think for kids, they're like, "Oh, it's week 30, I'm done," right? And I think another thing that I've heard from kids is they didn't really know that you can have conversations about math.

- Yeah. - Because it was really like, you know, we think of math, we think of calculation, that's all we think about. And so now the kids are like, "Oh, we can talk about it." Like, and I think they enjoy the conversations, you know, not just sitting there doing calculation work.

- Yeah. I've heard kids say that the math map gives them an opportunity to wonder about things. And they never thought that math was a place for wonder. It seemed like a place for surety and proving things and, you know, balancing an equation or doing a proof or solving a problem.

And they didn't really see it as a place for wonder, but as just a place for solving. - Yeah. And I think too, a lot of them, especially those who are like creative and artistic, they really like the fact that art has been brought into it. - Yes. - And then they, you know, like we've talked about before, that end of year project where they get to draw or paint or whatever it is.

And, oh, and I saw there was another kid, I think he had Play-Doh. And he was like doing some of the lessons are like toward geometry, where we get into like 2D and 3D. And he was making the shapes within, you know, using Play-Doh and, you know, we think Play-Doh is like for little kids, but we use Play-Doh in Challenge A all the time.

My kids love using Play-Doh. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - I mean, I think it's just, I think we just need to open the box and let our kids explore. And, you know, I think that's one thing that the math map does help them do is it's not just, here's your worksheet, here's a calculation sheet.

It's, that's over, right? I think that it just gives them some freedom to do more than just calculate. - Yeah, I think outside the box is really good. And I think that more of our kids are willing to think outside the box with regard to math education than us as parents are.

We're so uptight as parents about education. And our kids are so much more full of exploration, the heart of an explorer. That's what lives in our kids. Okay, I don't wanna go, I don't want, I want us to talk about some practical questions 'cause I feel like some people came on saying, okay, all that good stuff, all that good stuff, fine, fine, fine.

I believe it, I love it, I'm gonna do it. But here's some practical questions, Babs. What is it that we're supposed to do first every day? So what is advocated? 'Cause I know it's different than regular math education. I mean, regular, like I'm gonna tell you something new, some new piece of grammar, new vocabulary.

I'm gonna show you how to do a new kind of calculation and then you're gonna practice. But the math map days don't start like that. What do we do first? - So I would say first every day is do flashcards. Some kind of calculation, right? Whether it's addition, subtraction, multiplication, division or what I really like, the new ones, the notations, the notation flashcards, because I don't know all that grammar.

Like all that grammar is so new. So I even use it for myself. Like I'll just do two or three a day. And this is a question we get asked so many times is, do you have a sheet that tells me the notations for this week and I'm just gonna go over those?

Well, like, no, because you're gonna see those notations so much throughout the curriculum. Just pick four or five and drill them until they're mastered. And then- - And then get some more. - Yeah, then get more and then get more. So I would say the very first thing to do would be do flashcards, whether it's like a mental math kind of thing, like addition, subtraction, or whether it's the new grammar, like using the notation flashcards.

So I would do that first. - Okay, okay. All right, you keep talking, you mentioned, and I have seen the front of the math map covers and I've heard people talking about, like at practicum, about the art of the math map and how you always have that conversation. Talk to us about the art.

Do I have to use that thing? Do I really need to do the art? - I would say if you don't do anything else, you should do the art. - Ooh, talk about that. - Because it's the best part. Even if you don't feel confident in the math lesson pages, if you just look at the art, I feel like it's restful, right?

You're just looking at a piece of art, you're looking at the detail. You can ask your student, "Okay, is there anything on this page that you see "that would remind you of God? "Or is there anything on this page "that would remind you of a math topic?" And just see what kind of connections they can make.

And we don't have to give them any, right? We could just let them talk. And so there's no preconceived conversation you have to have. It's just whatever they come up with. And I'll just tell you, so we've talked about how we've piloted for like four or five years. And we use the same art every single year.

So you would think, "Oh, this conversation's gonna be the same." - Right, 30 pictures. I mean, aren't we gonna run out of things to say? - Right, well, every year my kids say something different. It's a different group of kids. They're looking at the same art, but they don't have the same connections.

They come at it from a different experience, right? We all have different backgrounds. We all have lots of different denominations, right? - Yeah, that's true. - We all have a different aspect. And so we're bringing something different to the table. I would even say, if you do it on Monday, you talk about the art with your family on Monday, maybe do it again on Friday and see if anything changed, right?

Because now they've done some of the calculation pages in the middle. Is there something else? And do they see another connection, right? - Wow. - I think it's the most important. I mean, honestly, you're finding connections 'cause we want to see God in math. And so we're starting with that art picture.

So I think that's the most important. - Oh, wow. That is so cool. I like it that you brought out the whole idea, that conversation. The conversation seems to be a real, a thing that families really come to love about doing the Math Map together is that it initiates a lot of really good conversations.

And I can see that that piece of art would really call forth a lot of conversations that could go in a lot of different areas and a lot of different directions. - And what I love about doing it in Challenge A is we kind of start the conversation, but then we want the kids to go home and continue to talk about it.

- Oh, yeah. - Because I have had the opportunity to kind of present the gospel to some students in Challenge A. - Oh, wow. I'm 100% sure they had really heard the whole gospel, right? - Yeah. - So there's so many opportunities to point our students back to God and then say, "Okay, now go ask your parents what they see." And then that way the conversation can continue.

- Yes, that is really cool. All right. So that's really good. Those are practical things to do every day. Practice some kind of flashcard, some kind of calculation or grammar. That's really good. Do the art, look at it, have conversations. That really primes the pump. What am I supposed to do though when I get stuck?

Say I am a parent and we read the instructions. We are tracing and we are copying and we are reading and tracing and copying. But then my child asks me a question. Well, what does this weird symbol mean? When will I ever see that? Or what will I do with that?

And we don't know the answer. What do I do as a parent when I feel stuck or unsure? - Okay. Well, there's lots of things, lots of resources that we can use. So the first thing I would say is the naturals, which that's like the five, six-year-old curriculum. Sometimes if you're looking at it and you're copying and tracing, sometimes answers to questions are in there.

Like sometimes you're copying a definition. And then sometimes you can look at how a symbol is being used and you can kind of figure out how it's being used. So I actually have told some of my Challenge A parents, print off the naturals and just use it as a resource.

Leave it beside your student. If we're working on lesson, I think we just did lesson 10, print off the naturals, lesson 10, and let your student have it beside them while they're doing your complex, and just let them use it as a reference, 'cause it could be helpful. We can always use the solutions.

And this is so tricky because people will say, well, that's cheating. If I get out the solutions as cheating, and I've said this so many times, it's kind of hilarious. My kids hear it when I say it, is that obviously we've been cheating in Latin this whole time because we don't do Latin without the answer key.

- I know, right, because how will we know if we've really screwed it up? - Right, and I mean, honestly, I think I've purchased three or four different answer keys for Latin. - Oh, yeah. - And so we have them out on the tables, because there's, when you translate, there's, it can be translated in different ways.

So sometimes there's a little variety. - Sure, sure. - But using the solutions and working backwards sometimes can really help you understand what you're looking at. - Yes, it shows you where, something that seemed like a magic or a miracle was just hard work. It was just a connection you didn't see at first.

But when you go back, like when I tutored Challenge B for years and years, and when we got to the really hard proofs at the end of the formal logic, I would say if you're doing this without the answer key, you are doing it the hard way. I mean, if you can't get it, I mean, I want you to try for 20 minutes.

I want you to try. But if you can't get it, go look at the answer key and see if you can understand why that is the answer, because that will help you do it the front way next time. - Right. And speaking of Challenge B, so many of those symbols in that logic book are in the Math Map.

- How cool is that? - If you've had a Challenge B student going through and you just download the naturals, you're like, "Oh, I know what this is. "I've seen it before." You know? - Uh-huh. - So there's also, we have the companion. The companion's an online resource that does have a glossary.

So you could look up some notations there if you wanted to do that. - Okay. - And then another stuck is, you know how in Essentials we copy charts? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - We can copy the solutions from our lesson pages. And so think about this. Like, let's say I'm a parent.

Let's say I work, right? And I'm not really gonna sit down with my student the entire time he does math. So I'm gonna tell him, "Okay, this is what I want you to do. "Pages one through four, "I just want you to copy the answers. "Look at the answer key and just copy the answer.

"Put it in there. "That's all I want you to do today. "And then tomorrow, I want you to see "if you can do the next four pages by yourself." So what I've had my student do is, like, page one and page five are the same. So if I copied page one yesterday and the same stuff I'm gonna see today on page five, maybe my student is like, "Oh, I saw this yesterday and I remember copying it.

"Now I know what to do." - Oh, yeah. And that's what you meant about the repeating nature of it. They're gonna see the same information in the lesson. It really is building. - It is. So like one, two, three, four are the first four, right? Then you've got five, six, seven, and eight.

So one and five are the same. Two and six are the same. Three and seven are the same. Four and eight are the same. And so it's that way all the way to page 16. - I see the pattern there, Barb. Okay. - Yeah. So that's, I mean, I feel like that's another, if you feel like you're stuck, right?

Is that you can get out the answer key and just let them copy. And then another thing too, just if you feel stuck, is instead of using, let's say you're using the complex domain for challenge A, and it's, "Oh, I feel like all they're doing "is just copying." Well, maybe I should go to a lower domain.

Maybe I should try fractions and just see if they can do any of that on their own. - Huh, okay. - There's so many different things that you can do. You don't, like I said before about the freedom, like you have the freedom to move around different domains and all that.

And then if all else fails, come to the book club and ask Lee and Percy your question live. - That is so good. And that brings me to the last thing that I really wanted to ask about. And you've mentioned these sprinkled through our conversation. What are the support resources that are out there for us as we get used to this?

What support resources can we as parents avail ourselves of as we get used to learning math classically? - So Shauna and I monitor this email address, themathmap@classicalconversations.com. Anybody can email us there. As a matter of fact, we've even gotten questions from people who don't go to CC. - Oh my gosh.

- And they're like, "Hey, can we use the Math Map?" And we're like, "Well, anybody can buy it, right?" - Yes. - So anybody can email us there, whether you're a parent or a director, anybody can email us there. We also have forums on CC Connected where parents and directors can ask questions there.

Inside the companion on the first four pages, Kirstie has added videos for the tops. So if I still crave that didactic, like teach me, tell me what to do, I can go look at the tops of the first four pages of that booklet and she's got little videos that explain those problems at the top.

So that's another good resource. - Okay. - And then also inside the companion, it's clickable. So all the pages, I can click on different pages, like I can click on the charts, I can click on the beginning two I pages that are like references and it gives me some extra helps.

- Okay. - So there, and then obviously, like I said, the last thing is come to the book club. - Yes. - Listen to Kirstie, ask them directly. And I mean, the last, I don't know, probably five book clubs, Kirstie stayed on an extra 30 minutes just to let people ask questions.

And she wants to make sure everybody gets their questions answered. - Oh, that is so good. So there's a ton of support for us. If we really want to do it, but it's hard and we're anxious and we struggle or we have a question, there are lots of places for us to get help.

That's awesome. That is really awesome. Thank you, Babs, so much. I feel a lot better about helping my students learn from the Math Map and I feel a lot better. I think all our listeners feel better about having other resources to help us make this transition. I really, I really appreciate this.

Listeners, I hope that you have benefited and I hope that you will pass along the information that you've learned or maybe even pass along the link to this podcast to a friend who might be struggling with the whole idea of learning math classically. And I know that you're busy and I know that as much as we all want to learn more about classical education and steep ourselves in the classical model, we get busy and sometimes as parents, we don't have a lot of extra time to read for ourselves.

So I want to let you know about something that you can listen to and get your classical ed built up. We have got a way for you to hear some of our CC Catalog articles on audio. We know life's busy and we don't want you to miss out on the great articles that are coming out in the 2025 Catalog.

Articles like "What is Classical Conversations?" "The Need for Community," "The Skills to Love Your Neighbor." There are tons of articles that will equip you and encourage you no matter where you are on the homeschool journey. You can download our audio versions of the articles from the Catalog and listen while you're in the car or mowing the grass or working out, whatever.

Listen wherever you stream podcasts. You can search "Classical Conversations Catalog Podcast" or you can go to classicalconversations/catalog-articles.com. Okay, that's classicalconversations/catalog-articles.com. And we can all keep learning together. Just like you learned about the Math Map from Babs today. Babs, thank you so much for being with me. I appreciate all your knowledge.

- Absolutely, it was fun. - It was a good encouragement to all of us. Listeners, I'll see you next week with some more equipping and encouraging. Bye-bye. (soft music) (soft music) (soft music)