Everyday Educator - How To Have a Conversation
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.720 | - Welcome friends to this episode
00:00:05.120 | of the "Everyday Educator" podcast.
00:00:07.880 | I'm your host, Lisa Bailey,
00:00:09.680 | and I'm excited to spend some time with you today
00:00:13.040 | as we encourage one another, learn together,
00:00:16.640 | and ponder the delights and challenges
00:00:19.680 | that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime.
00:00:23.120 | Whether you're just considering
00:00:25.340 | this homeschooling possibility
00:00:27.320 | or deep into the daily delight of family learning,
00:00:31.880 | I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.
00:00:35.560 | But don't forget,
00:00:37.380 | although this online community is awesome,
00:00:40.960 | you'll find even closer support in a local CC community.
00:00:45.960 | So go to classicalconversations.com
00:00:50.480 | and find a community near you today.
00:00:54.780 | Well, listeners, I'm excited to talk to you today
00:00:58.080 | about talking to you today.
00:01:01.400 | Actually, we're going to have, I hope,
00:01:04.240 | and I believe a great conversation
00:01:07.240 | with one of my friends, Daniel Shirley,
00:01:09.960 | who also serves as the CC+ Program Director.
00:01:14.960 | I'm gonna let Daniel tell you what that is
00:01:17.240 | in just a second in case you don't already know
00:01:20.400 | what all those letters and titles mean.
00:01:23.520 | But today, we really want to explore the idea
00:01:28.520 | of good conversation.
00:01:32.260 | What makes for a good conversation
00:01:35.380 | and how can we learn to have good conversations
00:01:39.140 | and to participate in good conversations?
00:01:42.820 | And also, as parents,
00:01:45.460 | what's our responsibility to our children
00:01:49.700 | to teach them the skills of good conversation?
00:01:53.780 | How can we as parents help them grow in that area?
00:01:58.020 | And y'all, I'm here to tell you
00:01:59.800 | that both children who like to talk
00:02:02.180 | and children who don't like to talk
00:02:05.160 | have something to learn about conversation.
00:02:07.340 | So Daniel's gonna be exploring that with me.
00:02:09.860 | Daniel, welcome.
00:02:11.960 | - Thanks, Lisa.
00:02:12.800 | Glad to be here again.
00:02:14.300 | Definitely excited to have a conversation
00:02:16.420 | about conversation.
00:02:17.900 | - I want you to tell people just really briefly
00:02:20.060 | what CC+ Program Director means
00:02:24.140 | just to give them a context for who you are
00:02:26.820 | and what you spend most of your time doing.
00:02:29.900 | - Yeah, well, it's actually, it's kind of funny.
00:02:32.140 | The topic of this podcast is pretty fitting
00:02:34.560 | because I've been mostly my job over the last month.
00:02:38.660 | So the kind of heaviest registration season that we have
00:02:43.660 | for students enrolling in CC+
00:02:46.980 | has been a lot of conversations with families,
00:02:50.540 | helping them unpack what the experience of college
00:02:54.180 | looks like, how to utilize CC+
00:02:56.820 | to best kind of enhance their community experience
00:02:59.940 | rather than detract from it or subtract from it.
00:03:03.660 | And yeah, so I mean, a lot of conversations
00:03:06.500 | with a lot of people.
00:03:07.940 | - That's cool.
00:03:09.140 | - Yeah, I think I was doing the math the other day
00:03:11.880 | 'cause I thought it'd be fun to see the numbers.
00:03:14.480 | - Yeah.
00:03:15.320 | - But I'm pretty sure that it was something like
00:03:17.900 | 410 conversations over the last month.
00:03:22.900 | - My word.
00:03:24.720 | - Lot of chatting with people, administrative stuff,
00:03:27.280 | but really, I like to think of it like the administration
00:03:31.120 | doesn't matter as much if you don't have that kind of,
00:03:33.960 | that ability or that space to be open
00:03:38.240 | and have conversation with the families
00:03:40.560 | that are trying to participate in this program
00:03:43.160 | that we're running.
00:03:44.200 | - Right, well, that conversation is what makes it human.
00:03:48.440 | - Indeed.
00:03:49.280 | - And that is what builds community.
00:03:51.680 | Well, that's a lot of conversations to have in a month
00:03:55.320 | and that doesn't even include the conversations
00:03:57.840 | you have at home.
00:03:59.840 | So I appreciate you making time to have a conversation
00:04:03.240 | with me about this today.
00:04:04.760 | I wanna ask you as we start out,
00:04:08.360 | have you ever known somebody who was super easy to talk to?
00:04:13.360 | Maybe you still know this person.
00:04:15.320 | Super easy to talk to.
00:04:17.120 | And then what made them or makes them easy to talk to?
00:04:22.120 | - Yeah, I think this is kind of one of those questions
00:04:26.880 | that's really difficult to answer.
00:04:28.880 | You could answer it in,
00:04:30.360 | there's so many different dimensions and dynamics
00:04:33.680 | and conversation is such an integral part of being a human.
00:04:38.160 | Talking to other people is just fundamentally,
00:04:41.760 | it's like one of the most human things.
00:04:43.800 | Aristotle even says something like,
00:04:47.480 | the human being is something like a social animal,
00:04:50.480 | which is all about talking.
00:04:52.320 | I would say like, if I had to put it simply,
00:04:56.000 | I would say that the people that I find it the easiest
00:04:59.680 | to talk to have this combination of confidence,
00:05:04.360 | but also they're relaxed.
00:05:06.920 | They're not like on four shots of espresso
00:05:11.920 | or something like that.
00:05:13.000 | - Yes, yes, yes.
00:05:14.520 | - That kind of brings an intensity to it
00:05:16.560 | that maybe makes it not as easy,
00:05:19.000 | but definitely has a lot of energy.
00:05:21.400 | So some kind of relaxed confidence
00:05:24.080 | and like a genuineness in the sense that you can tell
00:05:29.080 | that they care about the answers
00:05:32.240 | and the questions that they're giving and receiving.
00:05:36.800 | So yeah, I guess that would be it.
00:05:39.560 | What about you?
00:05:40.440 | What are the traits that you've noticed in people
00:05:43.440 | that you find easy to talk to?
00:05:45.480 | - You know what?
00:05:46.320 | I would mirror your answer.
00:05:48.040 | I really liked that, you're right.
00:05:49.880 | It is a mixture of confidence.
00:05:52.280 | So people that are easy to talk to are not,
00:05:57.160 | at least on the surface, super shy and bashful.
00:06:01.600 | So they're not super retiring.
00:06:03.320 | They are willing to have an opinion or an idea and own it.
00:06:08.320 | And they have an air of being an interesting person.
00:06:14.480 | And at the same time, as you said,
00:06:18.680 | being interested in the other person
00:06:22.040 | and the other person's idea.
00:06:24.440 | I also agree with your comment
00:06:28.080 | that people who are super intense
00:06:32.320 | are really kind of off-putting for me in conversation
00:06:37.320 | because it's almost like a combative role.
00:06:41.480 | I always feel like with really intense people
00:06:44.840 | that I need to take a step back,
00:06:47.360 | or that I need to put my hand on the other person's shoulder
00:06:50.360 | so I don't get swallowed up.
00:06:52.240 | I want them to be interested,
00:06:56.240 | but I don't want to feel like a specimen under glass.
00:07:01.840 | And so I think one of the best conversationalists,
00:07:06.840 | the most comforting and comfortable people to talk to
00:07:12.400 | in my past is a dear friend,
00:07:16.880 | a lady who is so stinking busy.
00:07:20.120 | She's always busy.
00:07:21.560 | She has literally 10 children.
00:07:24.440 | And when we were the closest,
00:07:26.600 | all of our kids were pretty young.
00:07:29.280 | But if you were talking to Rachel,
00:07:32.360 | you always felt like you had her full attention.
00:07:37.080 | And you always felt like she was listening to what you said
00:07:42.080 | because she was interested in you as a person.
00:07:46.080 | She wanted to know what you thought about things.
00:07:49.440 | And she wasn't overpowering or smothering,
00:07:53.760 | but she was very interested.
00:07:56.320 | She made you feel like the most interesting person
00:08:01.320 | in her sphere at that moment.
00:08:04.280 | And so that made her really easy to talk to
00:08:07.520 | 'cause I thought she was really listening.
00:08:09.760 | - Yeah, and that is important.
00:08:13.760 | I mean, I think that attention
00:08:16.000 | is one of the most on-demand assets
00:08:18.280 | that we have to offer one another as human beings.
00:08:21.920 | And so to prioritize someone genuinely with your attention
00:08:25.680 | has to be a part of what it means
00:08:28.320 | to be a good conversationalist,
00:08:31.320 | to be good at talking to other people,
00:08:34.400 | and to be easy to talk to.
00:08:36.360 | They have to feel prioritized in your sphere of attention.
00:08:38.960 | - Yes, yes.
00:08:40.600 | But at the same time, I want us to think about it.
00:08:42.920 | And we might decide that it is the same thing,
00:08:46.440 | or maybe we'll just dance around this question.
00:08:49.000 | Is being easy to talk to
00:08:53.120 | the same thing as being a good conversationalist?
00:08:57.400 | - It's, there's gotta be a relationship
00:09:01.640 | because they both involve talking.
00:09:04.520 | - Yes.
00:09:06.320 | - They're connected somehow.
00:09:07.520 | And I would think like,
00:09:09.360 | do you think it's a fair distinction
00:09:11.440 | between being easy to talk to versus a conversationalist?
00:09:16.360 | Is it the same thing?
00:09:17.640 | Do these play out in the mediums of like small talk
00:09:20.800 | versus something that we would classify as conversation?
00:09:24.680 | - Wow, that's a really good point.
00:09:27.680 | Because some people, you're right,
00:09:29.920 | some people, I think where you're going
00:09:31.640 | is that some people are easy to make small talk with,
00:09:36.360 | but maybe they're not as easy to have a quote, unquote,
00:09:41.360 | deep conversation with.
00:09:44.360 | And there might be some differences there.
00:09:46.800 | I think that people who are easy to talk to
00:09:51.640 | in a small talk way are people who are good
00:09:56.640 | at throwing the ball back and forth.
00:09:59.760 | I had a friend, a church friend one time,
00:10:02.600 | she was so hard to get to know.
00:10:06.000 | I told my husband once that it was like
00:10:08.280 | playing tennis with the wall.
00:10:10.440 | I mean, that she never hit the ball back.
00:10:12.760 | It just always dropped.
00:10:13.640 | I would lob a conversational ball to her
00:10:16.840 | and she would just kind of,
00:10:18.160 | if she answered, it wasn't throwing it back to me,
00:10:22.480 | it just kind of dropped.
00:10:23.760 | And so there are people that are not easy
00:10:29.720 | to make conversation with because they don't play the game.
00:10:33.360 | They don't, they're not interested back
00:10:35.600 | or they just give you a one word
00:10:39.360 | or even a monosyllable answer.
00:10:41.800 | So what is it that makes somebody a good,
00:10:46.800 | deeper conversation or more than just chit chat?
00:10:55.680 | - Right, I feel like, well, one of the things
00:10:58.560 | that you're describing in that example of like,
00:11:00.920 | it's like a volley back and forth in the small talk.
00:11:04.400 | In some ways, I've heard people say before
00:11:07.360 | that I'm not much for small talk.
00:11:10.200 | Like give me the stuff that matters,
00:11:11.800 | give me the substantial topics.
00:11:14.640 | And those are the things that I enjoy.
00:11:16.880 | There's almost like this pattern of conversation
00:11:21.880 | that while the content of small talk
00:11:25.400 | is not maybe the most important thing,
00:11:29.880 | there's a reason that you don't immediately begin talking
00:11:32.720 | about the most important things.
00:11:35.080 | Because it's like, those things are valuable to us.
00:11:38.640 | We care about them, the most important things, let's say.
00:11:42.120 | And we want to know that the person we're engaging
00:11:44.720 | in conversation with is of the kind to reciprocate our care
00:11:49.720 | and our values, something like that.
00:11:52.880 | And so I think we test that in the realm of small talk
00:11:56.080 | all the time is we're picking up on hints and clues of,
00:12:01.080 | well, if I do share this deeper part of my soul
00:12:06.120 | or these deeper concerns that I'm interested
00:12:08.920 | in having conversation about, will it be respected?
00:12:12.600 | Will it be reciprocated?
00:12:14.360 | Or is it going to be shunned or mocked or ignored
00:12:19.360 | or any of those other things?
00:12:21.960 | So I feel like the small talk components,
00:12:25.720 | it's related to being able to have a good conversation.
00:12:30.160 | - Yes, it's like the opening salvo kind of.
00:12:33.840 | - Yeah, exactly.
00:12:35.320 | - Yeah, and that's a reason why I think in other cultures,
00:12:38.840 | like I remember my wife was on a missions trip in Tanzania.
00:12:43.840 | And one of the things she noticed about the way
00:12:48.480 | that people there would interact with each other
00:12:51.080 | is that their strings of greetings were so long.
00:12:55.320 | Like they would go on, like just the greetings would go on
00:12:58.040 | for maybe like five to seven minutes
00:13:01.280 | before they would actually talk to each other.
00:13:04.480 | And obviously being from outside the space,
00:13:07.520 | it was like, "Oh, weird."
00:13:09.960 | 'Cause like we don't do that.
00:13:10.800 | - Right, we don't do that, mm-hm.
00:13:13.440 | - And so thinking about it in this way though
00:13:17.160 | of trying to figure out if the other person
00:13:21.200 | is willing to play the game when it comes to topics
00:13:25.680 | that actually really matter.
00:13:27.320 | And this is something we can learn
00:13:28.760 | via these kind of opening salvos or these greetings
00:13:33.000 | of which small talk, I think is definitely one.
00:13:35.400 | - That is really good.
00:13:38.320 | That's a good, good insight
00:13:40.120 | that we take the measure of one another
00:13:43.200 | as we engage in small talk.
00:13:46.400 | And maybe in the course of small talk,
00:13:49.360 | we uncover common interests
00:13:52.200 | or common beliefs
00:13:57.600 | or common mannerisms even,
00:14:01.560 | common understandings
00:14:04.320 | or similar likes or similar dislikes.
00:14:08.480 | Yeah, that's really good.
00:14:10.760 | And that a lot of times leads the way
00:14:15.160 | toward deeper conversations.
00:14:18.920 | So what is it that,
00:14:21.600 | and I guess we'll just take ourselves
00:14:26.080 | 'cause we can't really answer for the world at large,
00:14:28.560 | I suppose.
00:14:29.720 | What is it that draws you
00:14:33.640 | toward a deeper conversation with somebody?
00:14:36.960 | What quality does somebody possess or exhibit
00:14:41.960 | that draws you into deeper conversation?
00:14:45.080 | - That's another, yeah, that's a good question.
00:14:49.120 | What quality do they possess or exhibit?
00:14:51.760 | Well, I think like immediately
00:14:53.320 | something that comes to my mind
00:14:54.920 | is they have shown themselves
00:14:59.760 | over a period of time to be someone
00:15:02.120 | that's in the possession of wisdom
00:15:04.640 | or experience that I'm curious about and I don't have.
00:15:07.520 | That draws me deeper into like a consideration of like,
00:15:13.440 | oh, this is someone that I'm interested in talking to.
00:15:17.680 | They have a, like there's a guy at my church, for example,
00:15:23.760 | and he has lived a fascinating life.
00:15:27.720 | He's got a boat in his garage
00:15:31.680 | and he's gonna try to do some kind of crazy endurance race
00:15:35.480 | around like the Panhandle of Florida
00:15:38.000 | or around the state of Florida in a sailboat.
00:15:41.200 | - Oh my, okay.
00:15:42.480 | - And I was just like,
00:15:43.720 | I just haven't met anybody that's thinking that way.
00:15:47.480 | So I'm kind of curious, why, how are you doing this?
00:15:51.480 | What can, you know, obviously there's a tenacity
00:15:54.440 | and a discipline that is admirable inside this domain.
00:15:59.440 | And so I've just been really fascinated
00:16:02.000 | to learn a little bit more.
00:16:04.440 | So that it's kind of, they possess a experience
00:16:09.440 | that is something that is beyond you to a certain extent
00:16:13.800 | or just at a different domain and then a consistency.
00:16:18.120 | So you know that this isn't just kind of like a facade
00:16:21.440 | or a show, you've seen it repeatedly play out
00:16:25.240 | over a long period of time,
00:16:27.440 | whether that be a month or a year or two years.
00:16:31.360 | And I feel like that deepens the appreciation,
00:16:35.320 | the respect and the interest.
00:16:36.840 | - That's really good.
00:16:39.000 | So we're drawn into conversations with people
00:16:44.000 | that we admire or that have traits
00:16:47.000 | that we'd love to emulate,
00:16:48.400 | or even sometimes just traits that are so different
00:16:51.480 | from ours we want to know why,
00:16:53.320 | and how did you get that way?
00:16:54.800 | And why is that good to you?
00:16:57.040 | So how do you see that?
00:16:59.040 | Like just in the run-of-the-mill conversation,
00:17:02.000 | say you were going to a conference, Daniel,
00:17:05.360 | and you were not gonna be with people
00:17:07.440 | that you had met before,
00:17:08.920 | and potentially people that you'll never see again,
00:17:12.520 | how do you have a good conversation?
00:17:17.360 | What qualities of someone you just met
00:17:21.280 | would draw you into a conversation?
00:17:23.680 | - Yeah, again, I think it would be learning
00:17:26.800 | about their interest and their experience.
00:17:29.840 | I feel like that's definitely something real.
00:17:32.360 | I think in any kind of transitory space,
00:17:35.320 | you have to release expectation
00:17:37.200 | for what a conversation is going to be.
00:17:39.240 | And so you could be pleasantly surprised,
00:17:42.760 | but when I go to conferences
00:17:45.360 | and I'm going to a conference in about a month
00:17:48.720 | down in Georgia at Covenant College,
00:17:51.360 | and anytime I kind of move into that space,
00:17:53.680 | I A, recognize that inside the space
00:17:56.280 | of like any kind of academic setting,
00:17:59.360 | that you have to release any kind of ego or pride
00:18:03.200 | because everyone there is much smarter than you.
00:18:05.320 | And so you set that expectation very low of yourself.
00:18:10.320 | And then you set the expectation
00:18:13.400 | of having good conversation to be,
00:18:17.200 | it might happen, but we're just gonna meet people
00:18:19.960 | and fellowship and enjoy a good time.
00:18:21.960 | It could lead to that.
00:18:23.640 | But then again, I do think an element
00:18:25.920 | to foundationally and fundamentally good conversation
00:18:28.960 | is longevity of community.
00:18:30.680 | So if you meet someone out and about,
00:18:35.760 | really, I think before you're having
00:18:37.560 | really, really great conversations,
00:18:40.560 | there's a friendship, like there's a layer of communion
00:18:45.320 | that has to be established
00:18:48.120 | before the conversation can be its fullest.
00:18:52.240 | So, I don't know if that's a little bit off the rail.
00:18:57.240 | - No, no, that's actually very excellent.
00:19:01.200 | And Daniel, I think it's really encouraging
00:19:04.120 | because we're talking about how to have a good conversation,
00:19:07.720 | but we're talking and people that are listening
00:19:12.240 | are families and their parents who want to know
00:19:16.440 | how to have a good conversation with their little kids
00:19:19.720 | and their middle schoolers and their high schoolers
00:19:22.240 | and their college students and their grownup kids.
00:19:25.040 | And what you just said is super encouraging for all of us,
00:19:31.000 | what you said about longevity of community
00:19:35.600 | leading to the best conversations.
00:19:38.840 | So that's an encouragement because parents,
00:19:40.840 | nobody knows you like your children do,
00:19:45.840 | and that can be a double-edged sword.
00:19:48.200 | As a parent, I'm here to tell you that's the truth.
00:19:51.960 | But nobody knows your kids like you do.
00:19:55.320 | And so you guys are poised within your family
00:20:00.720 | to have some seriously great conversations.
00:20:05.400 | And so the best kindling to build that fire
00:20:11.360 | is already there.
00:20:13.240 | So what we're talking about and exploring today
00:20:15.640 | are ways to light that fire and ways to fan those flames
00:20:20.240 | and ways to avoid pouring cold water on those flames.
00:20:25.240 | And so that's what I'm hoping, Daniel,
00:20:28.340 | that we can, as you and I just talked together,
00:20:30.920 | that we will bring those out
00:20:33.040 | or have them stumble upon them ourselves
00:20:36.320 | and be able to share them.
00:20:37.820 | Let's just start, let's start right here.
00:20:40.760 | What would you say goes into the making
00:20:45.440 | of a good conversation?
00:20:47.620 | What is a good conversation?
00:20:51.400 | - Yeah, so a good conversation, let's see.
00:20:56.600 | I think a good conversation begins
00:21:01.480 | with a good question and a good heart.
00:21:05.840 | - Ooh, okay, I have to write that down.
00:21:08.280 | Begins with a good question and a good heart.
00:21:11.720 | You're gonna have to explain that 'cause I feel riches.
00:21:15.120 | I feel riches are hidden in that sentence.
00:21:18.200 | (both laughing)
00:21:20.400 | - Maybe, maybe, maybe.
00:21:22.400 | - We'll dig it up anyway and we'll see.
00:21:24.360 | - Yeah, we'll see, we'll see.
00:21:26.840 | Come back and examine afterwards.
00:21:28.240 | - That's right.
00:21:29.080 | - I think that what I mean by good,
00:21:33.900 | so I recently was reading back through Plato's "Republic"
00:21:38.900 | and trying to understand the quote unquote transcendentals
00:21:45.120 | in a way that Plato understood them
00:21:48.960 | or kind of draw out from the text what it means to be good.
00:21:54.160 | And you'll have to let me know
00:21:55.560 | if you think this is a decent definition of the good or--
00:21:58.200 | - Yeah, I'm interested to hear it, yep.
00:22:00.480 | - Yeah, so the good is when the pattern
00:22:05.480 | of intelligibility aligns with reality.
00:22:12.080 | So what I mean by that is something like,
00:22:14.640 | we have all sorts of ideas and hypotheses and questions
00:22:18.640 | that are rolling through our brains consistently.
00:22:21.680 | And sometimes those overlap and they map onto the world
00:22:24.840 | in a way that actually allows us to move forward.
00:22:28.000 | And actually it agrees, like the invisible of my mind
00:22:31.120 | agrees with the visible of the world.
00:22:33.040 | - Yes, it matches what I'm seeing
00:22:35.640 | and what makes the world go forward
00:22:38.000 | and what affirms reality.
00:22:41.000 | - Right, and so that's the good.
00:22:44.240 | - Yes, okay, that resonates.
00:22:46.760 | - That resonates, okay.
00:22:48.120 | So that brings us to a good question,
00:22:53.080 | which is a question that actually harmonizes
00:22:57.680 | these visible and invisible aspects of reality.
00:23:02.160 | So a question that's not flippant
00:23:04.960 | or that's not generated out of illusion,
00:23:09.360 | something like that.
00:23:10.200 | So a real question,
00:23:11.560 | maybe it might be another way to say it as well,
00:23:13.400 | a good question, a real question.
00:23:15.720 | And then the same thing with the heart,
00:23:17.200 | because we know that the heart can be turned
00:23:22.200 | in all sorts of different ways that are errant and not good.
00:23:25.680 | And so a heart that is aligned with
00:23:30.680 | or desires fundamentally the good,
00:23:34.360 | which is that we might harmonize the visible
00:23:39.240 | and the invisible more than they are already.
00:23:42.280 | And so that combination of a good heart
00:23:44.600 | and a good question,
00:23:46.280 | I think those are two foundational components
00:23:49.400 | of a good conversation.
00:23:50.840 | - Wow, that is a lot.
00:23:52.440 | Okay, listeners, you may have to like stop and think
00:23:55.680 | and replay and think again,
00:23:57.560 | but I believe that we'll all find something
00:24:00.800 | that will help us in our conversations from that, okay?
00:24:05.120 | Begins with a good question.
00:24:07.560 | So not something super surface,
00:24:10.720 | or as you said, not flippant.
00:24:13.240 | A good question that really seeks to make a connection
00:24:18.240 | between what we think and wonder
00:24:22.520 | and what we see and know to be right.
00:24:26.960 | And then the good heart that really desires the best,
00:24:31.960 | that is looking for improvement or enlightenment.
00:24:37.760 | And so that's the beginning of a great conversation
00:24:42.320 | because you throw out that good question.
00:24:46.920 | And if you've got a good conversational partner,
00:24:49.560 | they will accept your invitation in the spirit
00:24:53.760 | in which it was given.
00:24:55.520 | And you guys can chew on this question for a while.
00:25:00.200 | And that would make a good conversation, I agree.
00:25:04.000 | - Do you think I could go down the rabbit hole
00:25:07.920 | of what makes conversation within family difficult sometimes?
00:25:11.800 | I would love it 'cause my next question to you
00:25:14.200 | is going to be, that makes conversation good,
00:25:17.560 | what makes conversation awkward?
00:25:19.680 | So go down that hole, Daniel.
00:25:21.640 | - Okay, particularly with the family.
00:25:24.000 | I think this is something that we fall into all the time
00:25:29.000 | and we're not aware of it
00:25:31.560 | because we're not paying attention maybe
00:25:33.400 | to some really kind of obvious truths.
00:25:38.480 | And so one of the things that's obvious about being human
00:25:42.280 | is that when we become familiar with things,
00:25:45.040 | and there's a reason that familiar
00:25:46.560 | is connected to the word family.
00:25:48.960 | To be something, to be familiar means it's like family.
00:25:53.240 | We get into these patterns and habits of taking for granted
00:26:00.400 | the things that are familiar to us.
00:26:04.080 | And so because I don't meet,
00:26:07.480 | let's say my wife for the first time
00:26:09.440 | when I wake up every morning,
00:26:11.120 | there's a mercy there
00:26:12.040 | 'cause I don't have to figure everything out new
00:26:14.360 | every single day. - Exactly, exactly.
00:26:16.800 | - However, I, as let's say in this case,
00:26:21.800 | if I'm aiming to have a good conversation
00:26:25.440 | with someone in my family,
00:26:28.560 | I have to free them in some sense
00:26:30.960 | from the domain of the familiar.
00:26:33.480 | I have to let them continue to be something
00:26:36.840 | like freedom and potential, something like that.
00:26:40.720 | They have to be able to give me an answer
00:26:43.920 | that would surprise me.
00:26:45.040 | Even if I know they're maybe not going to give me an answer
00:26:47.600 | that would surprise me,
00:26:49.240 | I have to at least create that possibility
00:26:52.200 | and allow that to happen from in my own soul.
00:26:56.640 | Otherwise I've restricted their potential
00:26:58.760 | to a certain level to where I will not be interested
00:27:01.000 | in what they have to say.
00:27:02.360 | - Or maybe you're not able to receive what they say.
00:27:05.400 | Like you can't even hear it
00:27:08.000 | because it doesn't fit your script.
00:27:10.160 | - You don't have the ears to hear, right?
00:27:11.840 | I think this is really kind of when Christ is talking
00:27:14.360 | about eyes to see and ears to hear.
00:27:16.760 | It's like, well, you've got the biological ears to hear,
00:27:20.640 | but it's like, no,
00:27:21.480 | there's actually a default mode of perception
00:27:25.200 | that can make it impossible for you to hear
00:27:28.480 | something new from someone that you're familiar with.
00:27:32.760 | And so it's important to guard against that
00:27:34.640 | inside our families.
00:27:36.120 | - That is so true.
00:27:37.560 | We absolutely have to let family members grow and change.
00:27:42.560 | We have to offer them the freedom to grow and change.
00:27:47.920 | And it's really, I will just confess, okay,
00:27:51.000 | my girls, you know, Daniel,
00:27:53.200 | my girls are grown, they're grownups and they have been.
00:27:58.240 | And so I know what it is to walk through the changing
00:28:03.240 | as those people, as those children were becoming the adults
00:28:08.960 | that the Lord put the seed in them to become.
00:28:14.600 | As when that's happening in front of you day by day,
00:28:20.640 | parents, I'm thinking I'm probably not the only one
00:28:24.760 | that had a hard time.
00:28:27.280 | My girls were becoming who they were always meant to be,
00:28:31.840 | but I didn't always welcome that process
00:28:35.840 | or I didn't always see it and accept it as fast as it came.
00:28:40.840 | And so I feel like I probably stunted
00:28:45.320 | some of our conversations by not allowing them
00:28:53.520 | to put forth ideas that had never been them before.
00:28:58.520 | And so I feel like probably, and some of that,
00:29:04.480 | I guess I didn't have ears to hear, as you said,
00:29:08.800 | and some of that, I just was so used to the way
00:29:12.240 | that they had always answered that I just assumed
00:29:16.120 | that the answer they gave me was the answer I anticipated
00:29:19.960 | and didn't even hear the new material.
00:29:22.280 | - Hmm.
00:29:23.120 | - I think that's really, that's a good caution for us
00:29:28.280 | to keep it fresh in our families
00:29:32.360 | and to always be open to growing.
00:29:36.440 | If we offer that open space to our kids,
00:29:41.440 | they offer it to us too.
00:29:44.720 | Because there are ways in which I feel like I've changed
00:29:50.800 | and I've grown and I have deepened some understandings
00:29:55.800 | of the world and of human nature and of the Lord
00:30:00.680 | since my girls have grown up and left home.
00:30:03.440 | And sometimes in the conversations that we have,
00:30:08.440 | I don't feel them giving me the freedom
00:30:13.520 | to have become someone new.
00:30:16.920 | And so it is a two-way street and we can all practice
00:30:21.080 | that, what Daniel was saying, giving family members
00:30:26.080 | the freedom to grow and change.
00:30:29.520 | That's really good, Daniel.
00:30:31.360 | - I think it really, I was exploring some different
00:30:37.800 | kind of resources in preparation for this conversation
00:30:42.960 | and I found a lot of the things that I was reading
00:30:47.520 | around the topic of conversation,
00:30:50.080 | also they kind of inevitably converged
00:30:55.080 | into the space of education and what it looks like
00:30:59.000 | to educate. - Sure, sure.
00:31:00.680 | - And I feel like that's, it's one of the ways
00:31:03.680 | that we're always educating one another, right?
00:31:05.760 | It's just going back and forth inside the space
00:31:08.120 | of conversation.
00:31:10.960 | It was a quote that was attributed, I think, to Longfellow,
00:31:14.200 | but I'm not sure it's really a Longfellow quote,
00:31:16.760 | but it was still-- - Right, yep.
00:31:19.040 | - It was still a good one.
00:31:20.360 | I read a stat today that said that the, what is it?
00:31:25.360 | 57% of the internet's content now is AI generated.
00:31:29.640 | - Oh my gosh. - And so it's,
00:31:30.920 | you really can't tell anymore, but--
00:31:32.640 | - Yeah, you're right.
00:31:34.000 | - But I'd like this idea, at least,
00:31:38.000 | which is something like a conversation with a wise man
00:31:41.680 | is worth more than reading for 10 years,
00:31:44.480 | something like that. - Oh, wow.
00:31:46.360 | - And I think that this is just foundational
00:31:50.760 | to human experience and human learning
00:31:52.520 | is that seeking out those with wisdom
00:31:55.400 | and engaging them in conversation
00:31:57.840 | is a way to gather resources and carry on whatever tradition
00:32:04.800 | in a way that is not the same,
00:32:07.720 | it's not carried on in the same way
00:32:09.480 | through just filling our head with written material
00:32:11.840 | from paper books or, more likely,
00:32:13.960 | from the internet at this point.
00:32:15.320 | - Oh, right.
00:32:16.800 | - And so-- - That's a great point.
00:32:19.160 | - That moment is, yeah, definitely important.
00:32:21.520 | And then I ran across another quote attributed to Galileo
00:32:27.440 | that says, "You can't teach a man anything.
00:32:29.680 | "You can only help him to find it within himself."
00:32:33.600 | And I feel like, again, in the familiar space,
00:32:37.560 | in the family space, this is something
00:32:40.000 | that we have to remember,
00:32:43.000 | especially with maybe partially grown children,
00:32:47.920 | is that there is, as we move further into maturity,
00:32:52.440 | the appropriateness of didactic instruction
00:32:58.440 | kind of instead of genuine conversation is less and less.
00:33:04.280 | - Yes, that's absolutely.
00:33:07.360 | That's absolutely true.
00:33:09.200 | I think that, well, I'll tell you what I think
00:33:12.960 | and then I want to know what you think.
00:33:14.960 | Why is conversation better than what you read in a book?
00:33:19.960 | I mean, I think it's because we learn from each other
00:33:26.000 | in our learning compounds, and it goes like lightning.
00:33:31.000 | So I learn, I tell you what I think,
00:33:35.640 | and then you tell me how what I said
00:33:38.280 | either resonates with you and why,
00:33:40.240 | or why you have a difference.
00:33:42.200 | And then I learn from you, and then you learn from me,
00:33:45.200 | and together we go farther quicker
00:33:49.480 | in our understanding of the topic than we ever would have
00:33:53.520 | if we were just by ourselves
00:33:55.760 | taking in one thought at a time.
00:33:58.160 | - Indeed, and I think one of the reasons that this is
00:34:03.520 | is because it's like, well, what are you reading a book for?
00:34:07.160 | Probably somehow in some way to deepen
00:34:14.280 | or improve the ethic of your life
00:34:17.160 | as it relates to other people, right?
00:34:19.960 | Maybe it could just be for pure pleasure enjoyment
00:34:22.480 | if you're reading like, I don't know,
00:34:24.080 | some kind of 25 volume mystery novel series.
00:34:28.640 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:30.640 | - But it usually is gonna connect with something
00:34:33.680 | like the end of being able to have a conversation
00:34:36.880 | with someone about that text,
00:34:39.360 | or that it teaches you how to just act more sensibly
00:34:45.200 | in the world of other people.
00:34:48.040 | And so there was actually a fascinating story
00:34:52.960 | that I was listening to the other day about,
00:34:56.240 | it was someone talking about the history of Ireland,
00:34:58.680 | and one of the things that he said
00:35:01.320 | is that with ancient peoples,
00:35:04.360 | they didn't write histories in relationships
00:35:07.080 | to like factual events.
00:35:08.680 | Think about like Gibbon's "Rise and Fall of Rome,"
00:35:12.440 | something like that, and that's not the title.
00:35:14.880 | That history is tied to a particular event,
00:35:18.720 | but in the old world, they would tell stories about men,
00:35:23.720 | like about, you know, like human beings,
00:35:27.800 | and they would categorize their historical progress
00:35:30.840 | of the country of Ireland or something like that
00:35:33.000 | by the lives of different individuals,
00:35:37.120 | rather than tying it to particular,
00:35:40.960 | like let's say monumental events.
00:35:43.400 | It was about the embodiment in the person
00:35:48.320 | as a marker of historical kind of significance.
00:35:53.320 | So I feel like that's just,
00:35:55.800 | we don't think about things quite that way anymore.
00:35:58.600 | We don't prioritize maybe the human being
00:36:01.720 | as much as the ancients did.
00:36:04.520 | We think that humans maybe are something more
00:36:07.000 | to be cynical about because we're prone to error
00:36:09.680 | rather than being, you know,
00:36:13.080 | more apt to teach us than tomes and volumes.
00:36:18.080 | - Yeah, I agree, I agree.
00:36:21.280 | I enjoy learning from a person.
00:36:25.720 | I enjoy learning, so I enjoy learning from books.
00:36:30.120 | So I'm not saying that.
00:36:31.720 | I enjoy learning from a person
00:36:34.880 | because it seems somehow more applicable
00:36:39.160 | to the life I am living,
00:36:41.480 | especially as I live in community with that person
00:36:45.320 | and with other people.
00:36:46.720 | And so it shapes our knowledge into ways
00:36:51.720 | that are very useful for building community
00:36:56.560 | and building a world, I like that.
00:37:00.120 | Yeah, yeah.
00:37:01.520 | So how do we teach the people in our families
00:37:06.520 | to have good conversations?
00:37:12.200 | So think about, so for us who have little kids
00:37:17.200 | or little grandchildren,
00:37:19.600 | I have a grandson who's two years old, light of my life,
00:37:23.680 | and he is learning how to have conversations.
00:37:29.320 | At this point, his conversations are,
00:37:33.480 | they are just becoming him wanting to tell me
00:37:36.640 | what he has done and seen and thought about.
00:37:40.360 | They have been mostly his bid for information.
00:37:45.240 | And so I tend to tell him lots of things.
00:37:49.240 | We walk around and we're talking about everything.
00:37:51.800 | And so the other day we talked about,
00:37:56.120 | we were outside playing, we talked about sun and shade.
00:38:00.440 | And so mostly it was me talking
00:38:03.200 | and moving my body to demonstrate and him listening.
00:38:06.880 | And so, but all that day afterwards,
00:38:10.560 | he every once in a while would say,
00:38:13.560 | "Talk about shade again."
00:38:16.720 | And so he wanted that conversation, right?
00:38:21.720 | He's gathering his information,
00:38:24.960 | 'cause I gave him some,
00:38:26.120 | what do you see in the sun and the shade?
00:38:28.520 | And what do you feel?
00:38:29.360 | And so our little children,
00:38:32.280 | a lot of times their conversation seems like
00:38:35.440 | a bid for information, right?
00:38:38.560 | How, when do we teach our children,
00:38:41.160 | our little kids conversational skills?
00:38:44.120 | And how do we do this?
00:38:46.240 | You've been a little kid before.
00:38:48.360 | Do you remember your parents teaching you
00:38:50.920 | how to have a conversation?
00:38:53.080 | - Yeah, yeah.
00:38:54.040 | I think it actually, they, I'm trying to think.
00:38:59.040 | It was very synonymous in like my young mind
00:39:03.880 | with how to, what is it?
00:39:06.880 | Interact with the world, like even physically.
00:39:10.680 | - Okay.
00:39:11.520 | - There was a connection between the visible
00:39:14.120 | and the invisible in this way.
00:39:15.600 | It's like, just like when you're doing a foot race,
00:39:19.120 | you don't stick out your foot
00:39:20.440 | and trip the person that's running next to you.
00:39:22.760 | - Right.
00:39:23.600 | - That's mean and they'll get hurt.
00:39:25.160 | The most important thing I remember being kind of drilled
00:39:28.560 | into me when I was young was don't interrupt
00:39:32.400 | and respond when you're spoken to.
00:39:34.960 | Those were the two most important things
00:39:39.560 | that I remember learning.
00:39:40.680 | And then, yeah, just how they were connected
00:39:43.240 | with just not being, you know, mean, aggressive or violent.
00:39:48.240 | - Yes.
00:39:50.640 | - As it's kind of, 'cause we do that, right?
00:39:52.480 | Like we're mean, aggressive and violent
00:39:54.680 | in the conversational space.
00:39:56.000 | And we get away with it in ways that we don't
00:39:58.400 | inside the physical world.
00:40:00.080 | So that's important.
00:40:01.800 | - Yeah, I know.
00:40:03.720 | With little kids, it's funny.
00:40:05.400 | With young children, I think it's natural
00:40:08.600 | for us to start saying what not to do, okay?
00:40:12.400 | So like your parents taught you, don't interrupt.
00:40:16.280 | Don't stand there silent.
00:40:18.160 | If somebody is talking to you, you need to answer.
00:40:22.000 | I can remember when my girls were really little,
00:40:27.640 | it was really important to me.
00:40:30.160 | Like, it sounds like it was important to your mom and dad
00:40:32.840 | that they not hurt people's feelings
00:40:36.080 | and that they learn how to conduct themselves
00:40:39.840 | in a way that would build other people up.
00:40:44.200 | And so we, I went to enough little kid birthday parties
00:40:48.720 | and saw enough atrocious behavior
00:40:51.120 | by birthday boy or girl opening gifts
00:40:54.320 | that we used to practice.
00:40:56.240 | Before the girls had birthday parties, we would practice.
00:40:59.240 | And I would say, "What would you do,
00:41:02.640 | what will you do if you get a present that you don't like?"
00:41:07.040 | And so we would brainstorm.
00:41:08.760 | What do you say in this situation?
00:41:12.560 | You say, "Thank you very much."
00:41:15.040 | You could just say, "I've never seen one like this before,"
00:41:20.040 | or, "I don't have one," or, "Thank you for thinking of me."
00:41:24.080 | So we would say, and I would say,
00:41:25.600 | "So what do you do if you get a present?"
00:41:28.800 | 'Cause little children,
00:41:29.760 | I'm talking three and four and five-year-olds,
00:41:31.920 | they will say absolutely anything.
00:41:34.280 | They're just super honest.
00:41:36.080 | And sometimes that honesty is not what you want
00:41:38.560 | to come out at the party.
00:41:39.560 | So we would practice, "What will you do
00:41:41.760 | if you get a present that's like what you already have?"
00:41:46.560 | Okay, so right out is, "I've already got this,"
00:41:50.200 | or, "I don't want another one of these,"
00:41:52.000 | or, "I like the blue one better."
00:41:53.440 | No, we're not saying that.
00:41:54.320 | So what do we say?
00:41:55.880 | So we practice saying, "That's one of my favorite things,"
00:42:00.880 | or, "I've always liked that," which is perfectly true,
00:42:06.240 | but it affirms the person.
00:42:07.600 | So I think one of the ways
00:42:09.600 | that we teach our children to be conversationalists
00:42:12.160 | is actually to practice what to say in different situations.
00:42:17.160 | It's like modeling somehow.
00:42:21.880 | - Definitely, definitely.
00:42:23.320 | There's a training, right?
00:42:24.960 | There's a training that has to take place.
00:42:27.320 | 'Cause it is like there's this idea that,
00:42:29.600 | like let's say if conversation is a game
00:42:32.640 | and young children don't really know the rules
00:42:35.720 | of the game yet, they can't play the game,
00:42:38.680 | which means they need to be taught the rules of the game.
00:42:41.680 | But at the same time, those that play the game
00:42:47.000 | can learn virtue from those
00:42:50.080 | that are learning to play the game.
00:42:52.960 | Because I think one of the most profound things
00:42:56.720 | that I've noticed, like I've done,
00:42:59.080 | taught Sunday school or church school a couple of times.
00:43:02.760 | And one of the things that I just appreciate so deeply
00:43:05.160 | about young kids is that they are kind of honest
00:43:10.160 | in that way that sometimes we're not for the sake of,
00:43:14.560 | I feel like if I said this,
00:43:16.840 | I might hurt somebody else's feelings,
00:43:19.320 | but the children bring this kind of revelation sometimes
00:43:23.160 | of something that you're doing inside the game
00:43:26.920 | that's not really helpful.
00:43:29.680 | - That is really true.
00:43:31.400 | That's a good insight too, Daniel.
00:43:33.600 | - So yeah, I think that just the honesty of children
00:43:38.760 | is definitely a virtue.
00:43:40.720 | Also, maybe we could add that in
00:43:42.520 | to the dynamic of good conversation,
00:43:48.320 | the not being--
00:43:49.720 | - Yeah, honesty with kindness.
00:43:52.080 | - Correct, yeah, not being afraid always to,
00:43:56.280 | well, I think it goes to maybe even an experience
00:44:00.280 | in the challenge classroom, right?
00:44:01.760 | Being in front of students or in foundations,
00:44:04.480 | like not being afraid to ask a question
00:44:06.640 | that you feel like the answer to is obvious.
00:44:09.160 | - Yes, yes.
00:44:10.840 | - Right, which a kid will do.
00:44:12.640 | A kid will do that.
00:44:13.680 | And that's not even like an illegal move in the game.
00:44:16.720 | That's not-- - That's right, that's right.
00:44:18.720 | - That's a really important move inside the game.
00:44:21.560 | And again, we maybe have gotten comfortable
00:44:25.200 | or we feel like we're too far down.
00:44:27.960 | We spent too much time to ask those obvious questions now,
00:44:31.320 | and we might look foolish by asking those questions
00:44:35.160 | and undermine the confidence and respect
00:44:38.640 | that others have grown for us.
00:44:40.680 | But really, if we need to ask that question,
00:44:46.160 | that question should be asked.
00:44:48.800 | And our kind of pride should be set aside.
00:44:52.880 | And we can assume the posture of child likeness again.
00:44:56.000 | - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:44:57.600 | - And so, yeah, I think there's a lot to learn.
00:45:01.520 | - That's good.
00:45:02.360 | We can actually asking simple questions
00:45:06.200 | sometimes opens up really deep discussions.
00:45:10.760 | It brings people back 'cause people will hear
00:45:13.920 | and quote, unquote, obvious question in a fresh way
00:45:18.440 | if posed unexpectedly.
00:45:20.920 | I think that's a good key.
00:45:24.480 | That is a good key.
00:45:25.400 | I know that in Classical Conversations,
00:45:28.600 | we offer our children and our young people
00:45:32.720 | lots of opportunities to grow
00:45:35.200 | in their conversational skills.
00:45:36.800 | Even our Little Foundations students do presentations
00:45:41.800 | and take questions from the audience.
00:45:44.480 | That's a beginning way to have a conversation.
00:45:49.480 | You let somebody ask you a question
00:45:52.280 | and you provide information from them.
00:45:54.640 | And yes, I have been in Foundations communities
00:45:58.720 | and I know that lots of the questions are the same old,
00:46:02.400 | like Daniel said, obvious questions.
00:46:05.960 | But that's how children learn.
00:46:07.800 | They learn a process.
00:46:09.880 | They learn to make eye contact and to listen
00:46:13.200 | and to respond to what was asked
00:46:15.960 | and not just tell more of what they want to share.
00:46:19.680 | And so that's really good.
00:46:20.920 | And then our older kids,
00:46:22.880 | what are some of the ways that our older students, Daniel,
00:46:26.040 | learn to manage and lead conversations,
00:46:31.040 | say in the high school years?
00:46:32.880 | - Yeah, so I think,
00:46:36.840 | well, they learn all sorts of different tools, right?
00:46:41.080 | So I would think that when they're,
00:46:43.440 | obviously there's resources inside the challenge guides
00:46:46.320 | to help students learn how to be student leaders
00:46:48.400 | and different seminars in the upper challenges.
00:46:51.560 | We equip them with,
00:46:53.720 | hopefully they've kind of ingrained
00:46:55.680 | the five habits into themselves.
00:46:57.440 | They've learned the common topics.
00:46:59.600 | They've practiced the canons of rhetoric.
00:47:01.960 | And so those are all helpful tools
00:47:05.200 | for them to be able to use.
00:47:06.680 | I love the common topic of definition.
00:47:12.640 | And so this is one of the things,
00:47:15.320 | and I try to kind of bring a new freshness to it
00:47:19.080 | with some of my students
00:47:20.640 | that I tutor in the challenge program
00:47:26.160 | by kind of after they've written their first essay
00:47:29.800 | or something like that.
00:47:30.640 | And I see a Merriam-Webster definition
00:47:33.240 | inside the introduction of their paper
00:47:36.120 | because they want you to have like a solid definition base.
00:47:39.280 | I'm like, "Hey, write your own definition.
00:47:43.720 | "I don't like Merriam-Webster."
00:47:45.120 | And they're like, "No, it's gonna force you to think
00:47:49.960 | "and to dig deeper into the genus
00:47:53.160 | "and the difference of this term
00:47:56.280 | "that you're trying to wrestle through and define."
00:47:58.640 | And so by proposing your own definition
00:48:02.440 | inside this genus difference manner,
00:48:04.880 | you actually are being more vulnerable with your audience,
00:48:08.840 | something like that.
00:48:09.680 | You're inviting more participation and more questions
00:48:11.760 | 'cause they're like, "Oh, you really think that like,
00:48:14.560 | "I don't know, beluga whales are a genus of creatures
00:48:19.560 | "in the Odyssey or something like that."
00:48:23.160 | Opposite way.
00:48:24.200 | So it invites more conversation.
00:48:25.840 | It keeps things fresher and more interesting.
00:48:28.840 | And so I really, the tools of the five common topics,
00:48:33.840 | I feel like applied well and demonstrated.
00:48:37.440 | Obviously we learn these skills through,
00:48:39.960 | we learn these skills through imitation,
00:48:43.080 | through mimesis, right?
00:48:44.200 | Adler has the facts, skills, and ideas
00:48:47.400 | of the things that we deal with in education all the time.
00:48:50.880 | And we teach facts didactically.
00:48:53.560 | We tell like you're talking about sun and shade
00:48:56.000 | with your grand grandchild.
00:48:59.480 | And then with ideas, we teach them Socratically
00:49:02.560 | through discussion and conversation back and forth,
00:49:06.120 | descent into the ironic and kind of a reunification
00:49:09.920 | and a coming back together.
00:49:12.000 | And then skills we teach mimetically,
00:49:14.080 | we teach them through imitation.
00:49:16.320 | And so we teach our students to the level of mastery
00:49:21.120 | that we possess to a certain degree.
00:49:23.520 | And so it doesn't have to be amazing,
00:49:25.600 | but we should really like try to hone these tools ourselves
00:49:29.080 | and freshen them up in our minds
00:49:32.480 | so that we can play with definition
00:49:37.480 | and not be afraid of it.
00:49:38.920 | We can play with this and really enjoy
00:49:42.760 | that domain of comparative definition.
00:49:46.840 | And then relationship, circumstance, testimony,
00:49:50.800 | all of these things will really enrich
00:49:54.480 | that kind of community conversation.
00:49:57.800 | - Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
00:49:59.800 | Thank you for bringing out the five common topics.
00:50:03.200 | There are lots of skills that we practice
00:50:08.200 | as classical educators and as classical learners
00:50:14.520 | and parents, these skills you can practice
00:50:18.400 | as lead learners at home will help you
00:50:22.280 | as you start and participate in good conversations
00:50:27.280 | and will help you help your students
00:50:31.480 | learn how to be part of a good conversation.
00:50:37.720 | So Daniel, I'm just looked up and discovered
00:50:40.520 | that we have been talking about talking for a long time.
00:50:43.880 | And so we have to bring it to a close.
00:50:47.280 | I want, as we end our time together,
00:50:51.040 | your, what would you say?
00:50:53.160 | And maybe you've already said it
00:50:54.480 | and this will just offer you a chance
00:50:56.200 | to reiterate something important.
00:50:58.560 | What would be your best tip
00:51:01.200 | for having meaningful conversations at home?
00:51:05.520 | - I think that my best tip
00:51:09.760 | for having meaningful conversations at home
00:51:13.080 | would be to pay attention to,
00:51:19.200 | like, let's say with a younger student,
00:51:21.200 | it would be just releasing them from the,
00:51:25.520 | well, I guess with the older students as well,
00:51:27.720 | releasing from the familiar and allowing novelty
00:51:30.560 | to enter into the space of the conversation
00:51:32.960 | to the perspective of the person, that's huge.
00:51:36.920 | And then also for older students,
00:51:39.720 | for older students recognizing that really at that point,
00:51:48.680 | the heart is developing a lot, right?
00:51:51.600 | It's kind of struggling through the desires,
00:51:55.040 | their own desires, the things that they care about
00:51:57.120 | are becoming more manifest
00:51:58.960 | and they're becoming the most important things to them.
00:52:01.800 | And so kind of having that awareness of the desires
00:52:06.800 | of your student's heart and the conversation,
00:52:12.240 | like allowing the conversation to explore those desires
00:52:14.800 | rather than shutting them down and shutting them off,
00:52:17.440 | I feel like is really profoundly important
00:52:20.360 | for good conversations
00:52:22.360 | as kids get into high school and beyond.
00:52:24.360 | What are they after?
00:52:27.000 | 'Cause those things are gonna be
00:52:28.440 | where their conversation is gonna take place.
00:52:32.280 | If they don't care about it, they won't talk about it.
00:52:34.920 | Yeah.
00:52:37.960 | - That is good.
00:52:39.480 | It comes down to being sensitive,
00:52:43.680 | to paying attention to the cues of your partner
00:52:47.520 | and preparing your heart in advance, I think,
00:52:50.960 | to let your conversational partner
00:52:54.480 | go in the direction they want to go and grow,
00:52:58.520 | not where you have pigeonholed them or expect them to go.
00:53:03.520 | Really, really good helps and insights, Daniel.
00:53:09.200 | I appreciate this.
00:53:10.200 | This has been a lot of fun to me
00:53:13.160 | and I have to say, I find you a very good conversationalist.
00:53:17.240 | Thanks for being with me today.
00:53:19.600 | - Yeah, dittos, Lisa.
00:53:20.680 | I appreciate your thoughtful questions.
00:53:22.440 | - It's great.
00:53:23.280 | Families, I hope that this will bless you
00:53:25.560 | and will bless the conversations
00:53:27.600 | that you have with your families going forward.
00:53:31.240 | If you are new to this whole idea of classical education
00:53:36.240 | and we have piqued your interest at all,
00:53:40.160 | I want you to know that you can go
00:53:44.760 | to classicalconversations.com/events
00:53:49.760 | and find a list of information meetings near you
00:53:55.360 | or even an information meeting online
00:54:00.040 | that can answer some of the questions that you may have
00:54:03.160 | if you're interested in homeschooling,
00:54:06.200 | if you are interested in classical education
00:54:09.720 | or in classical conversations in particular,
00:54:13.400 | you will discover our Christ-centered
00:54:17.240 | classical approach to education
00:54:20.200 | and you'll have the opportunity to connect
00:54:23.000 | to some experienced CC parents
00:54:26.000 | that can answer your questions right away.
00:54:28.880 | So again, that's classicalconversations.com/events
00:54:33.880 | and you'll find out about our information meetings.
00:54:39.240 | It has been awesome talking to you today
00:54:41.680 | and I will look forward to it again next week.
00:54:44.640 | Bye-bye.
00:54:45.960 | (gentle music)
00:54:48.560 | you
00:54:50.620 | [BLANK_AUDIO]