(upbeat music) - Welcome friends to this episode of the "Everyday Educator" podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Bailey, and I'm excited to spend some time with you today as we encourage one another, learn together, and ponder the delights and challenges that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime. Whether you're just considering this homeschooling possibility or deep into the daily delight of family learning, I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.

But don't forget, although this online community is awesome, you'll find even closer support in a local CC community. So go to classicalconversations.com and find a community near you today. Well, listeners, I'm excited to talk to you today about talking to you today. Actually, we're going to have, I hope, and I believe a great conversation with one of my friends, Daniel Shirley, who also serves as the CC+ Program Director.

I'm gonna let Daniel tell you what that is in just a second in case you don't already know what all those letters and titles mean. But today, we really want to explore the idea of good conversation. What makes for a good conversation and how can we learn to have good conversations and to participate in good conversations?

And also, as parents, what's our responsibility to our children to teach them the skills of good conversation? How can we as parents help them grow in that area? And y'all, I'm here to tell you that both children who like to talk and children who don't like to talk have something to learn about conversation.

So Daniel's gonna be exploring that with me. Daniel, welcome. - Thanks, Lisa. Glad to be here again. Definitely excited to have a conversation about conversation. - I want you to tell people just really briefly what CC+ Program Director means just to give them a context for who you are and what you spend most of your time doing.

- Yeah, well, it's actually, it's kind of funny. The topic of this podcast is pretty fitting because I've been mostly my job over the last month. So the kind of heaviest registration season that we have for students enrolling in CC+ has been a lot of conversations with families, helping them unpack what the experience of college looks like, how to utilize CC+ to best kind of enhance their community experience rather than detract from it or subtract from it.

And yeah, so I mean, a lot of conversations with a lot of people. - That's cool. - Yeah, I think I was doing the math the other day 'cause I thought it'd be fun to see the numbers. - Yeah. - But I'm pretty sure that it was something like 410 conversations over the last month.

- My word. - Lot of chatting with people, administrative stuff, but really, I like to think of it like the administration doesn't matter as much if you don't have that kind of, that ability or that space to be open and have conversation with the families that are trying to participate in this program that we're running.

- Right, well, that conversation is what makes it human. - Indeed. - And that is what builds community. Well, that's a lot of conversations to have in a month and that doesn't even include the conversations you have at home. So I appreciate you making time to have a conversation with me about this today.

I wanna ask you as we start out, have you ever known somebody who was super easy to talk to? Maybe you still know this person. Super easy to talk to. And then what made them or makes them easy to talk to? - Yeah, I think this is kind of one of those questions that's really difficult to answer.

You could answer it in, there's so many different dimensions and dynamics and conversation is such an integral part of being a human. Talking to other people is just fundamentally, it's like one of the most human things. Aristotle even says something like, the human being is something like a social animal, which is all about talking.

I would say like, if I had to put it simply, I would say that the people that I find it the easiest to talk to have this combination of confidence, but also they're relaxed. They're not like on four shots of espresso or something like that. - Yes, yes, yes.

- That kind of brings an intensity to it that maybe makes it not as easy, but definitely has a lot of energy. So some kind of relaxed confidence and like a genuineness in the sense that you can tell that they care about the answers and the questions that they're giving and receiving.

So yeah, I guess that would be it. What about you? What are the traits that you've noticed in people that you find easy to talk to? - You know what? I would mirror your answer. I really liked that, you're right. It is a mixture of confidence. So people that are easy to talk to are not, at least on the surface, super shy and bashful.

So they're not super retiring. They are willing to have an opinion or an idea and own it. And they have an air of being an interesting person. And at the same time, as you said, being interested in the other person and the other person's idea. I also agree with your comment that people who are super intense are really kind of off-putting for me in conversation because it's almost like a combative role.

I always feel like with really intense people that I need to take a step back, or that I need to put my hand on the other person's shoulder so I don't get swallowed up. I want them to be interested, but I don't want to feel like a specimen under glass.

And so I think one of the best conversationalists, the most comforting and comfortable people to talk to in my past is a dear friend, a lady who is so stinking busy. She's always busy. She has literally 10 children. And when we were the closest, all of our kids were pretty young.

But if you were talking to Rachel, you always felt like you had her full attention. And you always felt like she was listening to what you said because she was interested in you as a person. She wanted to know what you thought about things. And she wasn't overpowering or smothering, but she was very interested.

She made you feel like the most interesting person in her sphere at that moment. And so that made her really easy to talk to 'cause I thought she was really listening. - Yeah, and that is important. I mean, I think that attention is one of the most on-demand assets that we have to offer one another as human beings.

And so to prioritize someone genuinely with your attention has to be a part of what it means to be a good conversationalist, to be good at talking to other people, and to be easy to talk to. They have to feel prioritized in your sphere of attention. - Yes, yes.

But at the same time, I want us to think about it. And we might decide that it is the same thing, or maybe we'll just dance around this question. Is being easy to talk to the same thing as being a good conversationalist? - It's, there's gotta be a relationship because they both involve talking.

- Yes. - They're connected somehow. And I would think like, do you think it's a fair distinction between being easy to talk to versus a conversationalist? Is it the same thing? Do these play out in the mediums of like small talk versus something that we would classify as conversation?

- Wow, that's a really good point. Because some people, you're right, some people, I think where you're going is that some people are easy to make small talk with, but maybe they're not as easy to have a quote, unquote, deep conversation with. And there might be some differences there.

I think that people who are easy to talk to in a small talk way are people who are good at throwing the ball back and forth. I had a friend, a church friend one time, she was so hard to get to know. I told my husband once that it was like playing tennis with the wall.

I mean, that she never hit the ball back. It just always dropped. I would lob a conversational ball to her and she would just kind of, if she answered, it wasn't throwing it back to me, it just kind of dropped. And so there are people that are not easy to make conversation with because they don't play the game.

They don't, they're not interested back or they just give you a one word or even a monosyllable answer. So what is it that makes somebody a good, deeper conversation or more than just chit chat? - Right, I feel like, well, one of the things that you're describing in that example of like, it's like a volley back and forth in the small talk.

In some ways, I've heard people say before that I'm not much for small talk. Like give me the stuff that matters, give me the substantial topics. And those are the things that I enjoy. There's almost like this pattern of conversation that while the content of small talk is not maybe the most important thing, there's a reason that you don't immediately begin talking about the most important things.

Because it's like, those things are valuable to us. We care about them, the most important things, let's say. And we want to know that the person we're engaging in conversation with is of the kind to reciprocate our care and our values, something like that. And so I think we test that in the realm of small talk all the time is we're picking up on hints and clues of, well, if I do share this deeper part of my soul or these deeper concerns that I'm interested in having conversation about, will it be respected?

Will it be reciprocated? Or is it going to be shunned or mocked or ignored or any of those other things? So I feel like the small talk components, it's related to being able to have a good conversation. - Yes, it's like the opening salvo kind of. - Yeah, exactly.

- Yeah, and that's a reason why I think in other cultures, like I remember my wife was on a missions trip in Tanzania. And one of the things she noticed about the way that people there would interact with each other is that their strings of greetings were so long.

Like they would go on, like just the greetings would go on for maybe like five to seven minutes before they would actually talk to each other. And obviously being from outside the space, it was like, "Oh, weird." 'Cause like we don't do that. - Right, we don't do that, mm-hm.

- And so thinking about it in this way though of trying to figure out if the other person is willing to play the game when it comes to topics that actually really matter. And this is something we can learn via these kind of opening salvos or these greetings of which small talk, I think is definitely one.

- That is really good. That's a good, good insight that we take the measure of one another as we engage in small talk. And maybe in the course of small talk, we uncover common interests or common beliefs or common mannerisms even, common understandings or similar likes or similar dislikes.

Yeah, that's really good. And that a lot of times leads the way toward deeper conversations. So what is it that, and I guess we'll just take ourselves 'cause we can't really answer for the world at large, I suppose. What is it that draws you toward a deeper conversation with somebody?

What quality does somebody possess or exhibit that draws you into deeper conversation? - That's another, yeah, that's a good question. What quality do they possess or exhibit? Well, I think like immediately something that comes to my mind is they have shown themselves over a period of time to be someone that's in the possession of wisdom or experience that I'm curious about and I don't have.

That draws me deeper into like a consideration of like, oh, this is someone that I'm interested in talking to. They have a, like there's a guy at my church, for example, and he has lived a fascinating life. He's got a boat in his garage and he's gonna try to do some kind of crazy endurance race around like the Panhandle of Florida or around the state of Florida in a sailboat.

- Oh my, okay. - And I was just like, I just haven't met anybody that's thinking that way. So I'm kind of curious, why, how are you doing this? What can, you know, obviously there's a tenacity and a discipline that is admirable inside this domain. And so I've just been really fascinated to learn a little bit more.

So that it's kind of, they possess a experience that is something that is beyond you to a certain extent or just at a different domain and then a consistency. So you know that this isn't just kind of like a facade or a show, you've seen it repeatedly play out over a long period of time, whether that be a month or a year or two years.

And I feel like that deepens the appreciation, the respect and the interest. - That's really good. So we're drawn into conversations with people that we admire or that have traits that we'd love to emulate, or even sometimes just traits that are so different from ours we want to know why, and how did you get that way?

And why is that good to you? So how do you see that? Like just in the run-of-the-mill conversation, say you were going to a conference, Daniel, and you were not gonna be with people that you had met before, and potentially people that you'll never see again, how do you have a good conversation?

What qualities of someone you just met would draw you into a conversation? - Yeah, again, I think it would be learning about their interest and their experience. I feel like that's definitely something real. I think in any kind of transitory space, you have to release expectation for what a conversation is going to be.

And so you could be pleasantly surprised, but when I go to conferences and I'm going to a conference in about a month down in Georgia at Covenant College, and anytime I kind of move into that space, I A, recognize that inside the space of like any kind of academic setting, that you have to release any kind of ego or pride because everyone there is much smarter than you.

And so you set that expectation very low of yourself. And then you set the expectation of having good conversation to be, it might happen, but we're just gonna meet people and fellowship and enjoy a good time. It could lead to that. But then again, I do think an element to foundationally and fundamentally good conversation is longevity of community.

So if you meet someone out and about, really, I think before you're having really, really great conversations, there's a friendship, like there's a layer of communion that has to be established before the conversation can be its fullest. So, I don't know if that's a little bit off the rail.

- No, no, that's actually very excellent. And Daniel, I think it's really encouraging because we're talking about how to have a good conversation, but we're talking and people that are listening are families and their parents who want to know how to have a good conversation with their little kids and their middle schoolers and their high schoolers and their college students and their grownup kids.

And what you just said is super encouraging for all of us, what you said about longevity of community leading to the best conversations. So that's an encouragement because parents, nobody knows you like your children do, and that can be a double-edged sword. As a parent, I'm here to tell you that's the truth.

But nobody knows your kids like you do. And so you guys are poised within your family to have some seriously great conversations. And so the best kindling to build that fire is already there. So what we're talking about and exploring today are ways to light that fire and ways to fan those flames and ways to avoid pouring cold water on those flames.

And so that's what I'm hoping, Daniel, that we can, as you and I just talked together, that we will bring those out or have them stumble upon them ourselves and be able to share them. Let's just start, let's start right here. What would you say goes into the making of a good conversation?

What is a good conversation? - Yeah, so a good conversation, let's see. I think a good conversation begins with a good question and a good heart. - Ooh, okay, I have to write that down. Begins with a good question and a good heart. You're gonna have to explain that 'cause I feel riches.

I feel riches are hidden in that sentence. (both laughing) - Maybe, maybe, maybe. - We'll dig it up anyway and we'll see. - Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. Come back and examine afterwards. - That's right. - I think that what I mean by good, so I recently was reading back through Plato's "Republic" and trying to understand the quote unquote transcendentals in a way that Plato understood them or kind of draw out from the text what it means to be good.

And you'll have to let me know if you think this is a decent definition of the good or-- - Yeah, I'm interested to hear it, yep. - Yeah, so the good is when the pattern of intelligibility aligns with reality. So what I mean by that is something like, we have all sorts of ideas and hypotheses and questions that are rolling through our brains consistently.

And sometimes those overlap and they map onto the world in a way that actually allows us to move forward. And actually it agrees, like the invisible of my mind agrees with the visible of the world. - Yes, it matches what I'm seeing and what makes the world go forward and what affirms reality.

- Right, and so that's the good. - Yes, okay, that resonates. - That resonates, okay. So that brings us to a good question, which is a question that actually harmonizes these visible and invisible aspects of reality. So a question that's not flippant or that's not generated out of illusion, something like that.

So a real question, maybe it might be another way to say it as well, a good question, a real question. And then the same thing with the heart, because we know that the heart can be turned in all sorts of different ways that are errant and not good. And so a heart that is aligned with or desires fundamentally the good, which is that we might harmonize the visible and the invisible more than they are already.

And so that combination of a good heart and a good question, I think those are two foundational components of a good conversation. - Wow, that is a lot. Okay, listeners, you may have to like stop and think and replay and think again, but I believe that we'll all find something that will help us in our conversations from that, okay?

Begins with a good question. So not something super surface, or as you said, not flippant. A good question that really seeks to make a connection between what we think and wonder and what we see and know to be right. And then the good heart that really desires the best, that is looking for improvement or enlightenment.

And so that's the beginning of a great conversation because you throw out that good question. And if you've got a good conversational partner, they will accept your invitation in the spirit in which it was given. And you guys can chew on this question for a while. And that would make a good conversation, I agree.

- Do you think I could go down the rabbit hole of what makes conversation within family difficult sometimes? I would love it 'cause my next question to you is going to be, that makes conversation good, what makes conversation awkward? So go down that hole, Daniel. - Okay, particularly with the family.

I think this is something that we fall into all the time and we're not aware of it because we're not paying attention maybe to some really kind of obvious truths. And so one of the things that's obvious about being human is that when we become familiar with things, and there's a reason that familiar is connected to the word family.

To be something, to be familiar means it's like family. We get into these patterns and habits of taking for granted the things that are familiar to us. And so because I don't meet, let's say my wife for the first time when I wake up every morning, there's a mercy there 'cause I don't have to figure everything out new every single day.

- Exactly, exactly. - However, I, as let's say in this case, if I'm aiming to have a good conversation with someone in my family, I have to free them in some sense from the domain of the familiar. I have to let them continue to be something like freedom and potential, something like that.

They have to be able to give me an answer that would surprise me. Even if I know they're maybe not going to give me an answer that would surprise me, I have to at least create that possibility and allow that to happen from in my own soul. Otherwise I've restricted their potential to a certain level to where I will not be interested in what they have to say.

- Or maybe you're not able to receive what they say. Like you can't even hear it because it doesn't fit your script. - You don't have the ears to hear, right? I think this is really kind of when Christ is talking about eyes to see and ears to hear.

It's like, well, you've got the biological ears to hear, but it's like, no, there's actually a default mode of perception that can make it impossible for you to hear something new from someone that you're familiar with. And so it's important to guard against that inside our families. - That is so true.

We absolutely have to let family members grow and change. We have to offer them the freedom to grow and change. And it's really, I will just confess, okay, my girls, you know, Daniel, my girls are grown, they're grownups and they have been. And so I know what it is to walk through the changing as those people, as those children were becoming the adults that the Lord put the seed in them to become.

As when that's happening in front of you day by day, parents, I'm thinking I'm probably not the only one that had a hard time. My girls were becoming who they were always meant to be, but I didn't always welcome that process or I didn't always see it and accept it as fast as it came.

And so I feel like I probably stunted some of our conversations by not allowing them to put forth ideas that had never been them before. And so I feel like probably, and some of that, I guess I didn't have ears to hear, as you said, and some of that, I just was so used to the way that they had always answered that I just assumed that the answer they gave me was the answer I anticipated and didn't even hear the new material.

- Hmm. - I think that's really, that's a good caution for us to keep it fresh in our families and to always be open to growing. If we offer that open space to our kids, they offer it to us too. Because there are ways in which I feel like I've changed and I've grown and I have deepened some understandings of the world and of human nature and of the Lord since my girls have grown up and left home.

And sometimes in the conversations that we have, I don't feel them giving me the freedom to have become someone new. And so it is a two-way street and we can all practice that, what Daniel was saying, giving family members the freedom to grow and change. That's really good, Daniel.

- I think it really, I was exploring some different kind of resources in preparation for this conversation and I found a lot of the things that I was reading around the topic of conversation, also they kind of inevitably converged into the space of education and what it looks like to educate.

- Sure, sure. - And I feel like that's, it's one of the ways that we're always educating one another, right? It's just going back and forth inside the space of conversation. It was a quote that was attributed, I think, to Longfellow, but I'm not sure it's really a Longfellow quote, but it was still-- - Right, yep.

- It was still a good one. I read a stat today that said that the, what is it? 57% of the internet's content now is AI generated. - Oh my gosh. - And so it's, you really can't tell anymore, but-- - Yeah, you're right. - But I'd like this idea, at least, which is something like a conversation with a wise man is worth more than reading for 10 years, something like that.

- Oh, wow. - And I think that this is just foundational to human experience and human learning is that seeking out those with wisdom and engaging them in conversation is a way to gather resources and carry on whatever tradition in a way that is not the same, it's not carried on in the same way through just filling our head with written material from paper books or, more likely, from the internet at this point.

- Oh, right. - And so-- - That's a great point. - That moment is, yeah, definitely important. And then I ran across another quote attributed to Galileo that says, "You can't teach a man anything. "You can only help him to find it within himself." And I feel like, again, in the familiar space, in the family space, this is something that we have to remember, especially with maybe partially grown children, is that there is, as we move further into maturity, the appropriateness of didactic instruction kind of instead of genuine conversation is less and less.

- Yes, that's absolutely. That's absolutely true. I think that, well, I'll tell you what I think and then I want to know what you think. Why is conversation better than what you read in a book? I mean, I think it's because we learn from each other in our learning compounds, and it goes like lightning.

So I learn, I tell you what I think, and then you tell me how what I said either resonates with you and why, or why you have a difference. And then I learn from you, and then you learn from me, and together we go farther quicker in our understanding of the topic than we ever would have if we were just by ourselves taking in one thought at a time.

- Indeed, and I think one of the reasons that this is is because it's like, well, what are you reading a book for? Probably somehow in some way to deepen or improve the ethic of your life as it relates to other people, right? Maybe it could just be for pure pleasure enjoyment if you're reading like, I don't know, some kind of 25 volume mystery novel series.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But it usually is gonna connect with something like the end of being able to have a conversation with someone about that text, or that it teaches you how to just act more sensibly in the world of other people. And so there was actually a fascinating story that I was listening to the other day about, it was someone talking about the history of Ireland, and one of the things that he said is that with ancient peoples, they didn't write histories in relationships to like factual events.

Think about like Gibbon's "Rise and Fall of Rome," something like that, and that's not the title. That history is tied to a particular event, but in the old world, they would tell stories about men, like about, you know, like human beings, and they would categorize their historical progress of the country of Ireland or something like that by the lives of different individuals, rather than tying it to particular, like let's say monumental events.

It was about the embodiment in the person as a marker of historical kind of significance. So I feel like that's just, we don't think about things quite that way anymore. We don't prioritize maybe the human being as much as the ancients did. We think that humans maybe are something more to be cynical about because we're prone to error rather than being, you know, more apt to teach us than tomes and volumes.

- Yeah, I agree, I agree. I enjoy learning from a person. I enjoy learning, so I enjoy learning from books. So I'm not saying that. I enjoy learning from a person because it seems somehow more applicable to the life I am living, especially as I live in community with that person and with other people.

And so it shapes our knowledge into ways that are very useful for building community and building a world, I like that. Yeah, yeah. So how do we teach the people in our families to have good conversations? So think about, so for us who have little kids or little grandchildren, I have a grandson who's two years old, light of my life, and he is learning how to have conversations.

At this point, his conversations are, they are just becoming him wanting to tell me what he has done and seen and thought about. They have been mostly his bid for information. And so I tend to tell him lots of things. We walk around and we're talking about everything. And so the other day we talked about, we were outside playing, we talked about sun and shade.

And so mostly it was me talking and moving my body to demonstrate and him listening. And so, but all that day afterwards, he every once in a while would say, "Talk about shade again." And so he wanted that conversation, right? He's gathering his information, 'cause I gave him some, what do you see in the sun and the shade?

And what do you feel? And so our little children, a lot of times their conversation seems like a bid for information, right? How, when do we teach our children, our little kids conversational skills? And how do we do this? You've been a little kid before. Do you remember your parents teaching you how to have a conversation?

- Yeah, yeah. I think it actually, they, I'm trying to think. It was very synonymous in like my young mind with how to, what is it? Interact with the world, like even physically. - Okay. - There was a connection between the visible and the invisible in this way. It's like, just like when you're doing a foot race, you don't stick out your foot and trip the person that's running next to you.

- Right. - That's mean and they'll get hurt. The most important thing I remember being kind of drilled into me when I was young was don't interrupt and respond when you're spoken to. Those were the two most important things that I remember learning. And then, yeah, just how they were connected with just not being, you know, mean, aggressive or violent.

- Yes. - As it's kind of, 'cause we do that, right? Like we're mean, aggressive and violent in the conversational space. And we get away with it in ways that we don't inside the physical world. So that's important. - Yeah, I know. With little kids, it's funny. With young children, I think it's natural for us to start saying what not to do, okay?

So like your parents taught you, don't interrupt. Don't stand there silent. If somebody is talking to you, you need to answer. I can remember when my girls were really little, it was really important to me. Like, it sounds like it was important to your mom and dad that they not hurt people's feelings and that they learn how to conduct themselves in a way that would build other people up.

And so we, I went to enough little kid birthday parties and saw enough atrocious behavior by birthday boy or girl opening gifts that we used to practice. Before the girls had birthday parties, we would practice. And I would say, "What would you do, what will you do if you get a present that you don't like?" And so we would brainstorm.

What do you say in this situation? You say, "Thank you very much." You could just say, "I've never seen one like this before," or, "I don't have one," or, "Thank you for thinking of me." So we would say, and I would say, "So what do you do if you get a present?" 'Cause little children, I'm talking three and four and five-year-olds, they will say absolutely anything.

They're just super honest. And sometimes that honesty is not what you want to come out at the party. So we would practice, "What will you do if you get a present that's like what you already have?" Okay, so right out is, "I've already got this," or, "I don't want another one of these," or, "I like the blue one better." No, we're not saying that.

So what do we say? So we practice saying, "That's one of my favorite things," or, "I've always liked that," which is perfectly true, but it affirms the person. So I think one of the ways that we teach our children to be conversationalists is actually to practice what to say in different situations.

It's like modeling somehow. - Definitely, definitely. There's a training, right? There's a training that has to take place. 'Cause it is like there's this idea that, like let's say if conversation is a game and young children don't really know the rules of the game yet, they can't play the game, which means they need to be taught the rules of the game.

But at the same time, those that play the game can learn virtue from those that are learning to play the game. Because I think one of the most profound things that I've noticed, like I've done, taught Sunday school or church school a couple of times. And one of the things that I just appreciate so deeply about young kids is that they are kind of honest in that way that sometimes we're not for the sake of, I feel like if I said this, I might hurt somebody else's feelings, but the children bring this kind of revelation sometimes of something that you're doing inside the game that's not really helpful.

- That is really true. That's a good insight too, Daniel. - So yeah, I think that just the honesty of children is definitely a virtue. Also, maybe we could add that in to the dynamic of good conversation, the not being-- - Yeah, honesty with kindness. - Correct, yeah, not being afraid always to, well, I think it goes to maybe even an experience in the challenge classroom, right?

Being in front of students or in foundations, like not being afraid to ask a question that you feel like the answer to is obvious. - Yes, yes. - Right, which a kid will do. A kid will do that. And that's not even like an illegal move in the game.

That's not-- - That's right, that's right. - That's a really important move inside the game. And again, we maybe have gotten comfortable or we feel like we're too far down. We spent too much time to ask those obvious questions now, and we might look foolish by asking those questions and undermine the confidence and respect that others have grown for us.

But really, if we need to ask that question, that question should be asked. And our kind of pride should be set aside. And we can assume the posture of child likeness again. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - And so, yeah, I think there's a lot to learn. - That's good. We can actually asking simple questions sometimes opens up really deep discussions.

It brings people back 'cause people will hear and quote, unquote, obvious question in a fresh way if posed unexpectedly. I think that's a good key. That is a good key. I know that in Classical Conversations, we offer our children and our young people lots of opportunities to grow in their conversational skills.

Even our Little Foundations students do presentations and take questions from the audience. That's a beginning way to have a conversation. You let somebody ask you a question and you provide information from them. And yes, I have been in Foundations communities and I know that lots of the questions are the same old, like Daniel said, obvious questions.

But that's how children learn. They learn a process. They learn to make eye contact and to listen and to respond to what was asked and not just tell more of what they want to share. And so that's really good. And then our older kids, what are some of the ways that our older students, Daniel, learn to manage and lead conversations, say in the high school years?

- Yeah, so I think, well, they learn all sorts of different tools, right? So I would think that when they're, obviously there's resources inside the challenge guides to help students learn how to be student leaders and different seminars in the upper challenges. We equip them with, hopefully they've kind of ingrained the five habits into themselves.

They've learned the common topics. They've practiced the canons of rhetoric. And so those are all helpful tools for them to be able to use. I love the common topic of definition. And so this is one of the things, and I try to kind of bring a new freshness to it with some of my students that I tutor in the challenge program by kind of after they've written their first essay or something like that.

And I see a Merriam-Webster definition inside the introduction of their paper because they want you to have like a solid definition base. I'm like, "Hey, write your own definition. "I don't like Merriam-Webster." And they're like, "No, it's gonna force you to think "and to dig deeper into the genus "and the difference of this term "that you're trying to wrestle through and define." And so by proposing your own definition inside this genus difference manner, you actually are being more vulnerable with your audience, something like that.

You're inviting more participation and more questions 'cause they're like, "Oh, you really think that like, "I don't know, beluga whales are a genus of creatures "in the Odyssey or something like that." Opposite way. So it invites more conversation. It keeps things fresher and more interesting. And so I really, the tools of the five common topics, I feel like applied well and demonstrated.

Obviously we learn these skills through, we learn these skills through imitation, through mimesis, right? Adler has the facts, skills, and ideas of the things that we deal with in education all the time. And we teach facts didactically. We tell like you're talking about sun and shade with your grand grandchild.

And then with ideas, we teach them Socratically through discussion and conversation back and forth, descent into the ironic and kind of a reunification and a coming back together. And then skills we teach mimetically, we teach them through imitation. And so we teach our students to the level of mastery that we possess to a certain degree.

And so it doesn't have to be amazing, but we should really like try to hone these tools ourselves and freshen them up in our minds so that we can play with definition and not be afraid of it. We can play with this and really enjoy that domain of comparative definition.

And then relationship, circumstance, testimony, all of these things will really enrich that kind of community conversation. - Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Thank you for bringing out the five common topics. There are lots of skills that we practice as classical educators and as classical learners and parents, these skills you can practice as lead learners at home will help you as you start and participate in good conversations and will help you help your students learn how to be part of a good conversation.

So Daniel, I'm just looked up and discovered that we have been talking about talking for a long time. And so we have to bring it to a close. I want, as we end our time together, your, what would you say? And maybe you've already said it and this will just offer you a chance to reiterate something important.

What would be your best tip for having meaningful conversations at home? - I think that my best tip for having meaningful conversations at home would be to pay attention to, like, let's say with a younger student, it would be just releasing them from the, well, I guess with the older students as well, releasing from the familiar and allowing novelty to enter into the space of the conversation to the perspective of the person, that's huge.

And then also for older students, for older students recognizing that really at that point, the heart is developing a lot, right? It's kind of struggling through the desires, their own desires, the things that they care about are becoming more manifest and they're becoming the most important things to them.

And so kind of having that awareness of the desires of your student's heart and the conversation, like allowing the conversation to explore those desires rather than shutting them down and shutting them off, I feel like is really profoundly important for good conversations as kids get into high school and beyond.

What are they after? 'Cause those things are gonna be where their conversation is gonna take place. If they don't care about it, they won't talk about it. Yeah. - That is good. It comes down to being sensitive, to paying attention to the cues of your partner and preparing your heart in advance, I think, to let your conversational partner go in the direction they want to go and grow, not where you have pigeonholed them or expect them to go.

Really, really good helps and insights, Daniel. I appreciate this. This has been a lot of fun to me and I have to say, I find you a very good conversationalist. Thanks for being with me today. - Yeah, dittos, Lisa. I appreciate your thoughtful questions. - It's great. Families, I hope that this will bless you and will bless the conversations that you have with your families going forward.

If you are new to this whole idea of classical education and we have piqued your interest at all, I want you to know that you can go to classicalconversations.com/events and find a list of information meetings near you or even an information meeting online that can answer some of the questions that you may have if you're interested in homeschooling, if you are interested in classical education or in classical conversations in particular, you will discover our Christ-centered classical approach to education and you'll have the opportunity to connect to some experienced CC parents that can answer your questions right away.

So again, that's classicalconversations.com/events and you'll find out about our information meetings. It has been awesome talking to you today and I will look forward to it again next week. Bye-bye. (gentle music) you