Everyday Educator - Mock Trial-What’s the Big Deal?
00:00:00.000 | (soft music)
00:00:02.820 | - Welcome friends to this episode
00:00:05.260 | of the Everyday Educator podcast.
00:00:07.920 | I'm your host, Lisa Bailey,
00:00:09.700 | and I'm excited to spend some time with you today
00:00:12.900 | as we encourage one another, learn together,
00:00:16.220 | and ponder the delights and challenges
00:00:18.940 | that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime.
00:00:22.420 | Whether you're just considering
00:00:24.400 | this homeschooling possibility
00:00:26.480 | or deep into the daily delight of family learning,
00:00:30.460 | I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.
00:00:34.280 | But don't forget,
00:00:35.620 | although this online community is awesome,
00:00:39.260 | you'll find even closer support in a local CC community.
00:00:44.200 | So go to classicalconversations.com
00:00:47.840 | and find a community near you today.
00:00:52.040 | Well, listeners, I'm excited to welcome you back
00:00:54.800 | to the podcast and I'm excited about this episode.
00:00:59.620 | Mock trial is something that I loved for a lot of years.
00:01:04.100 | I spent about seven years as a Challenge B tutor
00:01:08.720 | years ago, admittedly,
00:01:10.920 | but I absolutely loved working on mock trial
00:01:15.040 | with my students, with my students who lived in my house
00:01:18.540 | and with the students that I tutored week by week.
00:01:21.560 | And there were lots of reasons that I loved it.
00:01:24.840 | And I know that some of you have loved it in the past
00:01:28.160 | and some of you are looking forward to loving it.
00:01:31.540 | And some of you maybe are not as big a fan of mock trial
00:01:36.320 | as I am and as my guest is,
00:01:39.080 | I'll introduce her in just a second.
00:01:41.280 | So I wanted to use this episode
00:01:44.280 | to kind of set your minds at ease
00:01:47.720 | if you're anxious about mock trial,
00:01:50.160 | cast a vision for what it can become
00:01:53.860 | if you are not sure why we do this in Challenge B
00:01:58.820 | and what the good of it is,
00:02:00.640 | or if you're just not excited about it,
00:02:03.520 | I would like to cast a vision that might make you excited.
00:02:08.520 | And I have the perfect guest to do that.
00:02:11.640 | Stephanie Meador is here with us today.
00:02:14.520 | Stephanie, thanks for joining me.
00:02:17.320 | - Thank you, I'm really excited.
00:02:19.500 | I happen to know that Stephanie also loves mock trial.
00:02:23.120 | Now, why would I invite somebody
00:02:25.240 | who did not love mock trial to talk about mock trial,
00:02:29.040 | but she has loved it as a student herself
00:02:34.040 | and as a tutor mentoring students
00:02:39.080 | through the 15 weeks of the mock trial process.
00:02:43.900 | So she has got some great insights to offer us today.
00:02:48.300 | And so I'm really glad that she's here.
00:02:50.760 | Stephanie, I know that you spent,
00:02:53.800 | have spent a good many years yourself
00:02:57.680 | as a Challenge B director
00:03:01.440 | and interacting with lots of communities at practicums
00:03:06.260 | and with parents who are thinking about joining your class
00:03:09.840 | and all of that.
00:03:11.520 | Have you ever heard of families
00:03:14.080 | considering skipping Challenge B?
00:03:19.080 | You know, maybe their student is coming into CC late
00:03:22.120 | and they're a little more than the 13 year old age group,
00:03:27.000 | 12, 13 year old age group.
00:03:28.780 | They could begin in Challenge 1.
00:03:31.100 | They're just thinking about skipping Challenge B.
00:03:33.220 | How would you advise them?
00:03:35.700 | - Well, I would never advise someone to skip Challenge B
00:03:38.520 | because I think it's super fun.
00:03:40.740 | First of all, I just think it's a lot of fun.
00:03:43.960 | And it's a great level for this age group.
00:03:46.440 | I think it really meets students where they are
00:03:49.360 | in this transition phase between sort of the younger
00:03:54.160 | wanting to just memorize things
00:03:55.640 | and have things given to them phase,
00:03:58.800 | as opposed to the arguing and taking things apart
00:04:03.060 | and putting them back together phase
00:04:04.440 | and communicating phase.
00:04:05.880 | Challenge B is a really good example of a program
00:04:09.120 | that's kind of tailored to that.
00:04:11.960 | It harnesses that energy and helps them learn
00:04:14.780 | to learn some discipline, channel that energy.
00:04:19.060 | It's just a really good bridge for students to practice
00:04:23.400 | reading and writing skills on some easier literature
00:04:27.600 | and learn to tackle subjects that are unfamiliar.
00:04:30.400 | I think about formal logic can be intimidating
00:04:34.360 | and unfamiliar and it's nice that they tackle that
00:04:37.000 | before we have to start thinking about high school credits.
00:04:41.640 | And students just build a lot of confidence, I think,
00:04:43.680 | through experiences like mock trial.
00:04:45.680 | So I wouldn't recommend skipping B
00:04:48.640 | just because it's a lot of fun
00:04:50.240 | and a really good transitional bridge
00:04:53.380 | between that elementary school and high school.
00:04:56.360 | - I love your metaphor of a bridge.
00:04:59.080 | I agree with you completely.
00:05:00.880 | I mean, let's face it, Challenge B students,
00:05:04.600 | especially when B starts in the late summer, early fall,
00:05:09.600 | y'all, I love to Challenge B students,
00:05:11.640 | but they are still kind of goofy.
00:05:13.900 | And they, I think it is, you're really right, Stephanie,
00:05:17.720 | it's a really lovely bridge that lets them be who they are
00:05:22.720 | and grow into who they're becoming.
00:05:27.520 | That's really good wisdom there.
00:05:30.480 | I also know, and partly I know this from speaking
00:05:34.720 | at practicums all over the country for so many years.
00:05:38.240 | And so I feel like I have a kind of a,
00:05:40.880 | I've taken the temperature of a lot of families
00:05:45.000 | who look at Challenge B and they worry.
00:05:48.200 | You mentioned unfamiliar subjects like formal logic.
00:05:53.200 | So families tend to look at Challenge B
00:05:56.920 | and they sometimes are a little worried about that
00:05:59.760 | 'cause maybe mom, neither mom nor dad had formal logic,
00:06:03.360 | but they're also a little put off,
00:06:05.400 | some of them, by the whole idea of mock trial.
00:06:09.880 | They feel like it's gonna be too much for their kids,
00:06:13.680 | for their eighth grader.
00:06:15.800 | I've had families who have thought about doing Challenge B,
00:06:20.360 | but skipping the mock trial seminar for various reasons.
00:06:25.360 | Have you ever had this experience?
00:06:29.120 | And what would you tell a family
00:06:31.780 | that is just really worried about mock trial?
00:06:34.960 | - Yeah, I think there are maybe a couple of reasons
00:06:38.040 | that families get nervous about mock trial.
00:06:40.900 | And one of them is just that they're worried
00:06:43.440 | that it will be too much for their student work-wise.
00:06:47.400 | And I mean, I understand that fear mock trial is a lot.
00:06:51.920 | You're just given a bunch of case materials
00:06:53.960 | and told to do this thing that you've never done before.
00:06:56.840 | But in terms of it just being a lot,
00:06:59.280 | I think it's still appropriate for the age
00:07:02.540 | because of two things, time and teamwork.
00:07:06.780 | So time, mock trial is a semester long process
00:07:11.380 | and it's broken into steps.
00:07:13.120 | So it is a huge task, yeah,
00:07:15.200 | but they have three months to do it.
00:07:17.420 | So students are working on this for their whole semester
00:07:20.700 | and working on it little by little
00:07:23.240 | in steps that are broken down for them
00:07:24.800 | in the challenge guide and the mock trial notebook.
00:07:27.440 | And then the other T, the teamwork,
00:07:32.120 | there are roles for every type of kid in mock trial.
00:07:34.640 | I mean, if you're a performer kid, if you like to argue,
00:07:38.620 | if you want to be a detective, you want to be a leader,
00:07:41.660 | but then also if you are quiet and you notice things
00:07:45.020 | and you want to support your friends' ideas
00:07:48.180 | and you want to do more behind the scenes things,
00:07:51.660 | there's something for you there as well.
00:07:53.940 | And every class has kids that are like both of those parties
00:07:58.760 | and they learn to work together.
00:08:00.600 | They learn to talk and listen.
00:08:03.080 | They learn to see things from different perspectives.
00:08:05.860 | They learn to win and lose gracefully,
00:08:08.260 | not just mock trial at the end,
00:08:10.500 | but within their own little team
00:08:12.260 | as they are going through this process.
00:08:14.200 | Sometimes their ideas will be the one that everybody adopts
00:08:17.340 | and sometimes it's not and they just learn about that.
00:08:20.100 | At the end of the day, the time and the teamwork
00:08:23.220 | really makes this whole huge endeavor possible.
00:08:26.440 | And then I would really hate for kids
00:08:28.780 | to miss out on that process because they all can do it.
00:08:32.540 | And the fact that they get to the end of the semester
00:08:34.420 | and they have done it builds their confidence
00:08:36.340 | like nothing else.
00:08:37.420 | - Man, you made so many good points.
00:08:41.900 | I was jotting down notes furiously.
00:08:45.720 | So much good wisdom in there.
00:08:47.620 | I absolutely love the time and teamwork, the double T there.
00:08:52.620 | And that keeps it, you're right,
00:08:54.480 | that does keep it from being too much.
00:08:58.720 | Students are never left alone to figure it out.
00:09:03.000 | I mean, they never are.
00:09:04.200 | As homeschoolers and in classical conversations
00:09:07.720 | and on community day, nobody's ever left alone.
00:09:11.000 | But I love the way that you remind us that they tackle,
00:09:16.000 | they eat this elephant one bite at a time.
00:09:20.960 | They work in steps.
00:09:24.240 | So then the steps are prescribed for them
00:09:28.400 | so that they're not just thrown on their own
00:09:31.400 | and we assume that you will know how to break this down
00:09:34.280 | in the best possible way.
00:09:35.820 | I really like what you said about not depriving our students
00:09:42.120 | of the beautiful lessons that they learn.
00:09:48.680 | I never really thought about how much they learn
00:09:54.040 | about winning and losing and teamwork during the semester.
00:09:59.040 | I really like that.
00:10:01.620 | They do learn to put forth an idea
00:10:05.320 | and sometimes have their idea adopted
00:10:08.340 | and learn how to react to that, respond to that.
00:10:11.760 | And then sometimes have their idea not chosen
00:10:15.840 | and have to learn how to live with that gracefully.
00:10:20.000 | That's lovely.
00:10:21.400 | That's a great thing.
00:10:23.260 | And so you have your experience
00:10:25.600 | and you've done this more than once or twice.
00:10:28.240 | So your experience has been that by and large,
00:10:31.580 | it's not too much for an eighth grader to experience.
00:10:36.200 | - Yeah, I mean, I've never had a student
00:10:38.760 | who couldn't participate in mock trial.
00:10:41.320 | I've had students who given the choice
00:10:43.580 | would not have chosen to do this.
00:10:46.480 | But at the end of the day, no one has ever,
00:10:49.840 | I mean, and maybe this has happened in other communities,
00:10:52.020 | but no one's ever cried on the stand.
00:10:53.880 | Like no one has ever not been able to do mock trial.
00:10:58.500 | And part of that is just the director wants your student
00:11:03.740 | to have a good experience as well.
00:11:05.800 | So he or she is not going to give your student a role
00:11:08.720 | that isn't a good fit.
00:11:10.760 | So there really are roles for all different types of kids.
00:11:14.440 | If you have a student who really needs to be fully scripted,
00:11:18.220 | there is a role for that.
00:11:19.400 | You can read from a paper if that is where you're at
00:11:22.500 | at the end of the semester.
00:11:23.800 | - Right.
00:11:25.180 | - Yeah, so I've never had it actually be too much
00:11:28.640 | for a student.
00:11:29.480 | And really every time, by the time it's over,
00:11:32.920 | everyone is glad that they did it.
00:11:34.580 | I've never had a student just all the way up
00:11:37.520 | into the very end, like they still hated it
00:11:39.940 | and still didn't wanna do it and it was terrible.
00:11:42.580 | Everyone is always glad that they did it.
00:11:45.140 | And they're impressed with themselves.
00:11:47.020 | They feel really proud and they should.
00:11:49.980 | - Yes, you are right.
00:11:51.640 | You know, and I will just mention this,
00:11:54.640 | parents who are listening.
00:11:57.360 | I have had more parents who are afraid
00:12:02.360 | that their child can't do it than I have had students
00:12:07.360 | who were afraid that they can't do it.
00:12:11.680 | And part of that is, you know, the eighth grade mindset.
00:12:15.500 | They still are pretty sure they can do everything
00:12:19.640 | and they are real emboldened to try most anything.
00:12:24.640 | Now you do have some students who, for whatever reason,
00:12:28.480 | maybe don't like to speak in public
00:12:32.400 | or don't like to be put on the spot,
00:12:34.180 | don't like to have to think on their feet
00:12:36.200 | or various other issues.
00:12:38.280 | But usually it's the parents who are thinking
00:12:41.840 | that just sounds like a lot.
00:12:45.640 | That is a lot of pressure, that's a lot of thinking,
00:12:48.940 | that's a lot of new vocabulary,
00:12:50.760 | that's a lot of skills I've never done.
00:12:53.260 | I don't know if my child can do this.
00:12:55.180 | I think it's just too much pressure.
00:12:56.820 | And usually what we as parents mean
00:12:59.140 | is that I'm afraid of this and I'm not sure I can help well.
00:13:02.820 | And I think this could go south really easily
00:13:05.740 | and I don't think I'm a good tour guide for that.
00:13:08.860 | And so parents tend to worry.
00:13:11.140 | I had more years that I was a B tutor than not.
00:13:15.840 | I had parents who would come to me
00:13:18.360 | about middle of second semester and say,
00:13:20.900 | "I'm just not sure this is going well.
00:13:22.500 | "I just don't know if my child is gonna be able to do this.
00:13:25.460 | "I know what's expected.
00:13:26.760 | "I just don't know how this is gonna work out."
00:13:30.820 | And I will say, "Well, this is not my first time through."
00:13:34.320 | And so I am assuring you that you're going to be
00:13:39.240 | very pleasantly surprised by the way
00:13:42.120 | that your child steps up to the plate.
00:13:44.740 | And I have told parents, I bet you have too, Stephanie,
00:13:47.780 | for years that, okay, this Challenge B student
00:13:51.620 | who begins Challenge B in August
00:13:56.340 | is absolutely not the same student
00:14:00.800 | who is going to present at mock trial in April.
00:14:04.960 | These are not the same people, would you agree?
00:14:08.260 | - Yes, absolutely.
00:14:09.820 | And also, I will say that every year,
00:14:12.840 | mock trial looks very rough for a very long time.
00:14:16.520 | - Oh, such a long time.
00:14:18.060 | - Every year.
00:14:19.060 | Every year, I get into the last two or three weeks
00:14:21.740 | and I'm like, "You know what?
00:14:22.580 | "This might--"
00:14:23.400 | - This is gonna be the year.
00:14:24.940 | - But it always does.
00:14:28.060 | Always, it always does.
00:14:29.780 | It's so rough for so long and it makes me nervous.
00:14:32.900 | But I have at least learned to trust the Lord
00:14:36.240 | and then also to trust the process
00:14:37.820 | because really, really, by the time it actually happens,
00:14:41.100 | I am always impressed.
00:14:42.780 | But yeah, the parents coming to you midway
00:14:46.160 | saying they don't think this is going well,
00:14:47.740 | I mean, the director's like,
00:14:49.160 | "Yeah, I don't think it is either."
00:14:50.820 | - Yeah, it doesn't look pretty.
00:14:52.220 | It doesn't look pretty.
00:14:53.060 | - Right, the process is messy,
00:14:55.820 | but the outcome in the end is really always beautiful.
00:14:59.520 | - And it is.
00:15:00.860 | I will tell you, parents, that it is frankly amazing,
00:15:05.320 | even to those of us who have seen it time and again,
00:15:08.320 | it is frankly amazing to get to the end
00:15:11.740 | and you look at your students
00:15:14.160 | and you're listening to them and you think,
00:15:17.320 | "And where have these people been all year?"
00:15:20.720 | Well, where they have been is becoming.
00:15:24.320 | They have been becoming excellent thinkers.
00:15:29.320 | They have been becoming awesome argument architects.
00:15:35.060 | They have been becoming clear and persuasive presenters.
00:15:40.060 | They have been becoming gracious teammates.
00:15:45.180 | And it's beautiful to behold.
00:15:47.060 | So I guess what Stephanie and I are saying is
00:15:49.860 | don't skip challenge B and don't skip mock trial.
00:15:54.860 | We do understand that mock trial is very polarizing.
00:16:00.860 | Some families really look forward to it.
00:16:03.100 | Some students really look forward to it.
00:16:05.500 | And some students really dread it.
00:16:07.260 | Does this happen to you in most of your classes, Stephanie,
00:16:10.220 | that you have some that are for and some that are against?
00:16:14.520 | - Yes, yes.
00:16:15.600 | Every once in a while you'll have a student
00:16:17.080 | who's just neutral.
00:16:18.100 | But for the most part, it is in those two camps,
00:16:20.900 | the kids who are so excited.
00:16:23.660 | - And who are they?
00:16:24.500 | Why are they so excited?
00:16:26.300 | - Yes, usually these are the loud kids.
00:16:28.660 | The loud kids are excited and the quiet kids kind of dread it
00:16:32.060 | because they think there's nothing for them to do
00:16:33.900 | or nothing that they'll be comfortable doing.
00:16:35.380 | But there is.
00:16:36.220 | - Yes, yes.
00:16:38.340 | - Yeah, and so it's the students who like to talk
00:16:42.220 | that are usually excited.
00:16:43.120 | They go into this maybe already even thinking
00:16:46.420 | that they want to be lawyers.
00:16:49.020 | These are the students whose parents probably feel
00:16:51.540 | the dialectic stage like a ton of bricks at home.
00:16:54.420 | - My goodness, yes, yes.
00:16:55.940 | - The kids, the students love to argue.
00:16:57.700 | They love to collect evidence.
00:16:59.620 | They love to challenge things just for fun.
00:17:02.420 | They might be the students who write LTW papers
00:17:05.140 | with stances that the family does not even believe
00:17:07.940 | just to practice.
00:17:08.780 | - Yes, yes, devil's advocate positions, yes.
00:17:12.620 | - Yes, yes.
00:17:13.560 | Then there's also students who are excited about Mock Trial
00:17:16.940 | because they are serious and they love to do big tasks
00:17:21.060 | and do them right and apply themselves.
00:17:23.760 | These are the students who are detailed oriented.
00:17:27.080 | They like to notice things, really iron things out.
00:17:30.560 | So not always the argumentative students,
00:17:33.160 | but sometimes just the students who like to see details
00:17:35.720 | and like to do things right.
00:17:37.280 | - Yeah, or who like to work puzzles.
00:17:39.480 | I've had kids, students who like puzzles who like Mock Trial
00:17:43.360 | because it's like putting together a puzzle.
00:17:45.760 | - Yeah, yeah.
00:17:47.520 | And then the students who typically don't look forward
00:17:50.860 | to Mock Trial at first, they are those quiet ones
00:17:53.880 | who worry that they're too shy to do it,
00:17:57.960 | or they've internalized a belief that they can't
00:18:00.180 | or that they're not smart enough,
00:18:01.360 | which I think is so sad because that's not true.
00:18:04.280 | And I'm sorry that if they would ever think that,
00:18:07.420 | because it's like with the guidance of the director
00:18:10.260 | and their parents, that doesn't need to be
00:18:13.840 | the student's experience.
00:18:14.840 | They are capable of doing Mock Trial
00:18:17.240 | and just we need to shepherd them and stick up for them
00:18:19.960 | and sometimes help classmates learn to listen to them
00:18:22.620 | because sometimes these students are quiet.
00:18:24.820 | And I'll be honest, these are the students
00:18:27.440 | who will knock your socks off at the end.
00:18:29.860 | It is quiet students, the ones who were nervous,
00:18:33.260 | who have the biggest transformation in the end,
00:18:36.660 | really every time.
00:18:37.820 | - Wow.
00:18:39.700 | That is such an encouraging thing for the parents
00:18:44.840 | on this call to hear, that your go get 'em,
00:18:49.540 | I wanna make a splash, students are gonna love Mock Trial.
00:18:53.020 | You're quiet, I want to notice the details,
00:18:55.800 | students are gonna love Mock Trial.
00:18:58.300 | But also you're retiring, I'm not sure I can do this.
00:19:03.300 | Students can be led to see their strengths in this endeavor.
00:19:10.160 | And like you have said before, it is very confidence
00:19:16.840 | building for all of those students.
00:19:19.580 | You made a good point that all of our students have helpers
00:19:24.580 | that are going to help them find success
00:19:30.500 | as Mock Trial participators.
00:19:32.600 | So they have parents who are, and we wanna talk about
00:19:36.160 | how each one of these really does help.
00:19:38.360 | They have parents who are gonna be at home
00:19:41.520 | and parents who are gonna help you know what you can do
00:19:45.240 | to help your Mock Trial student,
00:19:47.200 | whatever kind of Mock Trial embracer they are.
00:19:50.980 | They also have the guide which helps them break up
00:19:55.980 | the process of building the case into steps
00:20:01.020 | that are doable, that are easy to see.
00:20:04.060 | And if you will follow all the steps,
00:20:07.540 | you will get to the end and have a hold.
00:20:10.900 | There won't be things missing.
00:20:13.100 | But you also have your director who is gonna guide you
00:20:17.740 | by asking you wonderful questions
00:20:19.980 | and not telling you what to think
00:20:23.440 | or even necessarily how to think,
00:20:26.480 | but ask you questions that will show you
00:20:31.120 | what the next best step is.
00:20:34.760 | But Stephanie, I want you to encourage
00:20:37.800 | our parent listeners also that there are other parts
00:20:43.200 | of the Challenge B and other parts
00:20:46.080 | of the Classical Conversation curriculum
00:20:48.520 | that has come before this that are preparing these students
00:20:53.400 | by showing them and sharpening their skills
00:20:58.400 | before they ever get to Mock Trial.
00:21:01.000 | Can you speak to that?
00:21:02.720 | In what ways do students, other studies
00:21:07.720 | help them prepare for Mock Trial thinking?
00:21:12.720 | - This is a question that I usually address
00:21:15.220 | in my Challenge B orientations
00:21:17.280 | because I really think that all of the strands go together
00:21:21.920 | and kind of get synthesized in Mock Trial.
00:21:24.660 | So I'll just do broad strokes of what I see
00:21:28.680 | and all of the seminars helping,
00:21:30.120 | but then three in particular.
00:21:32.240 | So from Latin studies, students have been sharpening
00:21:36.280 | their attention to details and pattern recognition
00:21:40.100 | and even some vocabulary, the legal system
00:21:42.480 | and the medical system use a lot of Latin-based words.
00:21:45.360 | So that's helpful from Latin.
00:21:47.160 | With formal logic, students can draw a lot from,
00:21:51.880 | well, fallacies for sure,
00:21:54.240 | but also just general reasoning skills,
00:21:57.160 | noticing that you have to build a case slowly
00:22:02.200 | with all the necessary pieces
00:22:04.040 | and guard against that correlation
00:22:06.320 | leading to causality kind of thing.
00:22:08.260 | Just because something happened
00:22:09.440 | doesn't mean it caused something else
00:22:11.080 | and formal logic teaches them to notice that.
00:22:13.280 | With literature, students have practiced
00:22:16.360 | persuasion techniques and evidence gathering
00:22:19.920 | and learning how to appeal to particular audiences.
00:22:23.260 | With history of astronomy,
00:22:25.540 | students have worked on a timeline construction
00:22:27.860 | and seeing relationships and studying the scientific method,
00:22:31.200 | which has some overlap in Mock Trial as well.
00:22:33.740 | In their defeating Darwinism studies,
00:22:37.240 | they learn a lot about expert testimony
00:22:39.680 | and again with some fallacies and how to use evidence.
00:22:43.760 | And then with American Experience Storybook,
00:22:46.720 | they have studied storytelling,
00:22:48.320 | seeing both sides of an issue,
00:22:50.640 | thinking about cause and effect,
00:22:52.680 | and then even math is more logical thinking,
00:22:56.000 | following the orders of operation,
00:22:57.620 | which can be similar to court procedure
00:22:59.960 | and that idea of connecting the dots,
00:23:02.080 | seeing how everything leads to something else necessarily
00:23:06.260 | by the way that a problem is constructed.
00:23:10.220 | But in particular,
00:23:11.560 | I know I just went through all of the strands,
00:23:14.260 | but I really noticed exposition,
00:23:16.680 | the formal logic and the defeating Darwinism,
00:23:18.740 | which is the research strand.
00:23:20.980 | So the formal logic sort of goes without saying
00:23:24.300 | what we've mentioned, the fallacies and the argumentation
00:23:27.140 | and defeating Darwinism,
00:23:28.540 | learning about expert testimony and evidence.
00:23:32.120 | But short story is one that I actually bring up
00:23:34.540 | pretty frequently, both first semester and second semester.
00:23:39.540 | So in first semester, students are writing persuasive essays,
00:23:44.540 | and you need to learn how to gather proofs or evidence
00:23:48.600 | and then support each proof with some supporting facts.
00:23:53.160 | And you even want to have an exhortium,
00:23:56.240 | an opening to your presentation
00:23:58.600 | that catches people's attention.
00:24:00.340 | You need to have a thesis statement.
00:24:02.160 | You know, what is the overall argument
00:24:04.660 | that you're trying to convince?
00:24:06.400 | You need to think about refutation.
00:24:09.240 | So what is the other side likely going to say
00:24:11.400 | and how will you refute that?
00:24:13.720 | So really all of the things from "Lost Tools"
00:24:16.340 | comes into play with mock trial.
00:24:18.140 | But then also at the end of the day,
00:24:20.220 | what you're doing with mock trial is telling a story.
00:24:23.340 | And so we bring in some elements from short story
00:24:25.600 | with Frytox Pyramid.
00:24:27.880 | What is the setting of your trial?
00:24:29.520 | Who are your characters?
00:24:30.800 | What is the conflict?
00:24:32.900 | Even what is the theme?
00:24:34.560 | We talked about theme and mock trial
00:24:36.360 | and trying to guide students to come up with something
00:24:39.320 | that is memorable and powerful as the theme for their trial
00:24:43.200 | that the jury can hear over and over
00:24:45.600 | and associate with your side of the story.
00:24:48.900 | Yeah, I mean, really just you are telling a story
00:24:52.420 | the whole time.
00:24:53.260 | So what perspective are you going to present to the jury?
00:24:56.200 | How are you going to make that compelling
00:24:58.520 | and provide enough context and support
00:25:01.000 | that the jury thinks?
00:25:02.200 | I think you're right.
00:25:03.280 | Gosh, that is so good.
00:25:07.080 | Parents, you need to play that on repeat
00:25:09.640 | for your students, for your challenge B students,
00:25:12.160 | because all of those things that they learn
00:25:15.700 | and they work on during challenge B
00:25:18.480 | are skills that are useful across the board.
00:25:21.400 | That is the coolest thing about a classical education,
00:25:25.640 | the connections that exist between all of the things
00:25:30.640 | that we learn, all of the things that we study,
00:25:33.240 | all of the things that we talk about.
00:25:35.340 | And you're absolutely right, Stephanie,
00:25:38.780 | the students who pick up on the truth
00:25:43.780 | that mock trial is about who tells the best version
00:25:54.880 | of the story will convince the judge or jury,
00:25:59.880 | if you had a jury, because the truth is you could tell
00:26:04.940 | the story a number of different ways.
00:26:07.880 | There are lots of stories to be told within the framework
00:26:11.200 | of the case materials for every trial.
00:26:14.520 | And it's the person who recognizes that there is likely
00:26:19.520 | a theme and if you can pull it out and keep putting it
00:26:24.000 | before the hearers, that will carry the day.
00:26:27.560 | And recognizing that how you draw the characters
00:26:32.560 | will affect how sympathetic the hearer is
00:26:37.000 | to your character's cause.
00:26:38.500 | I just think what you said is really, really good.
00:26:40.960 | And parents, that will help you to ask good questions
00:26:47.080 | as your students begin to work on mock trial.
00:26:50.840 | You can ask, even if you don't know anything
00:26:53.560 | about court proceedings or this mock trial case,
00:26:58.120 | you can ask questions like, what is your character like?
00:27:02.920 | What are his positive qualities?
00:27:05.040 | What are the negative qualities?
00:27:06.600 | What qualities do you want to highlight?
00:27:09.360 | How could you highlight those qualities?
00:27:11.600 | What qualities do you want to downplay?
00:27:14.520 | And all the things that Stephanie mentioned
00:27:17.080 | will really help your student.
00:27:19.900 | And you can ask those questions about short story
00:27:23.160 | and about mock trial.
00:27:24.880 | So that's really good.
00:27:26.960 | That was one of the questions I was gonna ask you, Stephanie,
00:27:30.880 | is how much help does the curriculum offer parents
00:27:35.780 | who know nothing about trials and court proceedings?
00:27:39.240 | So we have said that making sure you understand
00:27:43.480 | how the skills practiced in all of the other strands
00:27:46.240 | will help your student prepare for mock trial, that's good.
00:27:50.520 | But how does the curriculum help me as a parent who knows,
00:27:54.900 | I know none of this vocabulary.
00:27:57.280 | I don't know how to build the case.
00:27:59.240 | I don't know anything about these procedures.
00:28:03.560 | How much is the curriculum gonna help me as a parent?
00:28:06.780 | - Well, the curriculum offers enough.
00:28:10.480 | You know, it's not going to prepare a student for the bar.
00:28:13.840 | - Right, right.
00:28:15.480 | - But students are given real direction
00:28:17.800 | as far as they need to be.
00:28:19.480 | So the mock trial notebook and the challenge guide
00:28:22.600 | walk students through the vocabulary
00:28:25.440 | and some of the sentences that they need to know,
00:28:28.920 | just how to enter evidence,
00:28:31.160 | what the bailiff says at different times.
00:28:33.480 | So the curriculum will give students all that they need.
00:28:38.520 | And also it's all that students are allowed to use.
00:28:41.520 | So across the board, all the challenge B communities
00:28:44.500 | are only allowed to use the challenge guide
00:28:46.120 | and the mock trial notebook.
00:28:47.560 | So there's not a student who's being wildly coached
00:28:51.240 | or brought in with all of this evidence
00:28:53.160 | from online or something.
00:28:55.160 | That's not even allowed.
00:28:57.040 | There is an opportunity in the challenge guide
00:28:59.360 | for a lawyer to come and speak to your community,
00:29:03.120 | just to answer questions about court procedure
00:29:05.280 | or very general strategy.
00:29:07.480 | You know, what may--
00:29:08.320 | - But not specifically about the case, right?
00:29:10.960 | - Right, right.
00:29:11.800 | - So just general court protocol guidance.
00:29:15.640 | - Sure, and like what makes a good cross examination
00:29:17.720 | question generally,
00:29:18.640 | and what makes a good direct examination question.
00:29:21.080 | So the lawyers are never coaching students on this case.
00:29:24.000 | They really probably don't need to know
00:29:25.440 | what the case is about at all.
00:29:27.640 | But if students want to know just very general strokes
00:29:31.520 | about how to write a good question,
00:29:33.800 | that's something that they can get
00:29:34.820 | from the guest speaker lawyer.
00:29:37.000 | - That's really good.
00:29:39.520 | Okay, so the curriculum, the mock trial notebook,
00:29:45.240 | and my child's director are enough
00:29:48.840 | to help me help my child do this well.
00:29:53.840 | - Yeah, that's all you need.
00:29:55.180 | Yeah, and a lot of times-- - That is so good.
00:29:56.840 | - There's just collaboration and community
00:29:58.780 | between the students,
00:29:59.620 | which I think is where they probably learn the most.
00:30:01.760 | - Yes, I was gonna ask you,
00:30:03.760 | what do the students get from community day activities?
00:30:08.240 | And so you said they get confidence.
00:30:10.360 | What else do they get, practice?
00:30:13.540 | - Yes, community day is where a lot
00:30:15.280 | of the collaboration happens.
00:30:17.560 | So students may meet together outside of community,
00:30:20.860 | especially once the roles are assigned
00:30:23.000 | about halfway through the semester,
00:30:24.300 | but they should not have to meet outside of community
00:30:27.020 | very often, if at all.
00:30:28.800 | So in challenge B, in person, in community,
00:30:32.020 | is where you break into your groups
00:30:34.300 | and talk about the witness statements,
00:30:36.620 | where you saw discrepancies,
00:30:38.340 | what you think might have happened,
00:30:41.460 | what kinds of questions you want to ask.
00:30:44.220 | So community day is when a lot of that collaboration happens
00:30:47.300 | and what you're collaborating on specifically
00:30:50.140 | is broken down by the challenge guide as well.
00:30:52.200 | So it will tell you the weeks that you are studying
00:30:55.200 | and rewriting witness statements
00:30:57.180 | or learning to write direct examination questions
00:30:59.620 | or cross-examination questions
00:31:01.200 | or learning about opening statements and closing arguments.
00:31:03.800 | So the challenge B guide and the mock trial notebook
00:31:05.700 | tell you what to focus on.
00:31:07.460 | And then in community, students do.
00:31:09.160 | The director will usually give the students
00:31:12.080 | some guiding questions or a particular activity to do
00:31:15.560 | and then students work on that in community together.
00:31:19.000 | - Gosh, that is so good.
00:31:21.680 | It's making me feel excited about mock trial again
00:31:24.720 | and I don't really have the opportunity
00:31:26.540 | to work on a mock trial with students right now,
00:31:29.060 | but it's getting me excited again.
00:31:30.720 | And I suspect that there are lots of sighs of relief
00:31:35.720 | going through our listening audience right now.
00:31:38.880 | Thinking, well, this does not sound so over the top.
00:31:42.840 | This does not sound like something we can't do
00:31:46.120 | and enjoy as a family.
00:31:49.080 | And I really think that that was my aim for this podcast.
00:31:54.080 | So I appreciate Stephanie,
00:31:55.480 | you talking us through that so very well.
00:32:00.480 | Parents, I want to encourage you.
00:32:03.180 | We have spent the last several summers learning together
00:32:08.000 | during practicums ever more about our tools of learning,
00:32:13.000 | our classical tools, the five core habits
00:32:17.020 | and the five common topics and the five canons.
00:32:20.180 | And so I want to remind you as parent lead learners
00:32:25.180 | who have worked to put these tools into practice
00:32:30.720 | in your homeschool, that these are still the tools
00:32:34.800 | that will help you and your student explore
00:32:38.700 | this new subject, this mock trial subject.
00:32:42.160 | So naming, naming all the participants in the trial
00:32:47.160 | and all the parts of the trial, the opening statement
00:32:51.680 | and the cross exam and the direct exam
00:32:54.680 | and what does the bailiff do and all of that.
00:32:59.200 | The attending to the details of the trial,
00:33:02.720 | whether that means just reading it over and over
00:33:06.480 | until you notice a new detail every time,
00:33:10.240 | that's really important.
00:33:11.780 | Memorizing, what is it that your student needs to memorize?
00:33:16.160 | Are there pieces of the witness statement
00:33:19.760 | that need to be committed to memory?
00:33:22.320 | Are there procedures that you need to have memorized
00:33:26.240 | so that in the moment of nervousness during the trial,
00:33:29.800 | you don't forget what to do?
00:33:32.800 | Are there ways that you can express yourself?
00:33:35.520 | Student, one of the most fun parts of mock trial
00:33:38.880 | for students is that they get to act out other characters.
00:33:43.120 | Stephanie, have you had students
00:33:44.640 | that really love the acting out part?
00:33:47.880 | - Yes, yes.
00:33:49.040 | I have had students that I now associate,
00:33:51.640 | well, I associate different roles
00:33:53.300 | with the particular students
00:33:54.580 | who just knocked it out of the park.
00:33:56.680 | I love that.
00:33:57.520 | - Yes, I love it.
00:33:58.480 | And there are kids who just love
00:34:00.140 | to become their character and they find different ways
00:34:05.140 | of expressing traits or truths
00:34:08.940 | about their characters or situations.
00:34:11.280 | All of those tools of learning, those classical tools,
00:34:15.600 | parents, you can use those to help your student
00:34:20.600 | mind the depths of this mock trial project.
00:34:24.640 | I just think that it is such an opportunity
00:34:29.640 | for it all to come together.
00:34:33.900 | For me, mock trial is the synthesis of all the skills
00:34:37.600 | the students have practiced so far.
00:34:40.080 | How do you see that, Stephanie?
00:34:42.600 | - The synthesis of all of the strands?
00:34:45.760 | - Of all the skills, like all the skills.
00:34:48.460 | Have you seen that come?
00:34:53.340 | Have you seen them synthesize all the skills
00:34:57.420 | that you as a tutor have worked on with them
00:35:00.920 | through the Challenge B year and channel them all
00:35:05.760 | as they work on this presentation?
00:35:08.880 | - Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
00:35:10.420 | All of the skills that we learned in the strands
00:35:12.840 | that I kind of had listed them earlier,
00:35:15.920 | all of that comes into play big time.
00:35:18.720 | And I think it's fun to watch.
00:35:20.320 | Students realize that as well.
00:35:22.480 | I'll tell them that they're going to see
00:35:24.400 | this big synthesis at orientation
00:35:26.200 | and they're not really thinking about that yet.
00:35:29.100 | But at the end of the year,
00:35:30.260 | when they actually get to feel it,
00:35:31.520 | I think it's very, very cool.
00:35:33.460 | And I love to unpack with them
00:35:36.060 | after the trial has taken place.
00:35:37.840 | What did you learn?
00:35:38.680 | What skills do you see being important?
00:35:41.380 | And I have a little document on my computer
00:35:43.920 | called Collective Mock Trial Wisdom.
00:35:45.820 | And it's just kind of the students' takeaways
00:35:47.940 | from years and years about what they learned,
00:35:50.420 | what they wish they had known,
00:35:51.980 | and how they saw all of their skills working together.
00:35:55.240 | - Oh, I love that.
00:35:57.520 | Collective wisdom.
00:35:59.000 | And I salute you for having that
00:36:02.480 | after mock trial talk with your students
00:36:05.860 | so they can look back and recognize the strides they made
00:36:10.860 | and the connections that they made.
00:36:14.120 | I think that's really, really good.
00:36:16.480 | What, out of all your years of Tutoring Bee
00:36:20.520 | and shepherding these mock trial teams,
00:36:24.160 | what have you seen students gain from their participation?
00:36:29.160 | - I know I keep saying it, but really confidence.
00:36:35.420 | The students are so, and just a healthy amount of pride
00:36:38.920 | in the work that they've done.
00:36:40.420 | They get to the end of the semester
00:36:44.140 | and they know that it was a job well done.
00:36:47.200 | And I also see that their friendships are deeper as well,
00:36:51.040 | because going through an experience like this,
00:36:53.160 | sort of doing a big task that seemed scary at the beginning,
00:36:57.620 | builds relationships in a very deep way.
00:37:01.040 | So students have seen each other struggle really hard
00:37:04.560 | and they've seen each other succeed
00:37:06.760 | and it knits their hearts together
00:37:08.500 | in a way that's really cool.
00:37:09.920 | So confidence, but also deeper friendships, I think.
00:37:13.760 | - That is lovely.
00:37:15.720 | What a blessing.
00:37:17.200 | And parents, what parent would not choose
00:37:21.600 | to have your child participate in an activity for 15 weeks
00:37:25.280 | that was gonna teach them how to be a better friend,
00:37:30.280 | who was going to imbue them with greater confidence?
00:37:34.400 | Because I will tell you, I agree 100%
00:37:36.960 | with what you said about confidence, Stephanie.
00:37:39.980 | I have seen it absolutely change students
00:37:45.600 | to come out on the other side and recognize
00:37:48.640 | that they did this hard thing that in lots of ways
00:37:53.200 | was harder than they ever thought it would be.
00:37:56.460 | And for some of them, they did a hard thing
00:37:58.800 | that they were scared to do,
00:38:01.440 | or they were unsure of how it would turn out.
00:38:06.440 | To come through that and to know that they did it
00:38:12.360 | and that they pushed through with their friends
00:38:15.960 | that together they did this great thing
00:38:19.480 | builds confidence like absolutely nothing else
00:38:22.480 | that I have ever seen.
00:38:23.720 | And it carries over, that confidence carries over
00:38:27.880 | to the next time they're faced with something
00:38:31.180 | they've never done before that other people think is hard.
00:38:36.180 | They seem to have a resilience and a,
00:38:40.880 | well, I did it once, I can do it again,
00:38:43.320 | attitude that is beautiful to behold.
00:38:46.100 | All right, Stephanie, I want you to finish this sentence.
00:38:51.420 | Mock, because the title of our podcast today
00:38:55.840 | was Mock Trial, What's the Big Deal?
00:38:58.360 | So I ask you to finish this sentence.
00:39:00.480 | Mock trial is a big deal because?
00:39:05.000 | - It's transformative, is what I would say.
00:39:09.980 | - Ah, I love it.
00:39:11.640 | Mock trial is a big deal because it's transformative.
00:39:16.640 | I would give you two thumbs up for that.
00:39:19.140 | All right, parents, you have signed up
00:39:22.180 | for a transformative experience with your child.
00:39:26.680 | So I suggest to you that not only will your child
00:39:31.180 | be transformed, but you can be transformed by mock trial
00:39:35.160 | and your experience with it as well.
00:39:37.920 | Stephanie, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom
00:39:40.800 | and your collective wisdom of the years
00:39:43.840 | about mock trial with us, I really appreciate it.
00:39:46.780 | - You're welcome.
00:39:47.760 | - Parents, if you have listened to this episode
00:39:52.580 | of the Everyday Educator and it has helped you in any way,
00:39:56.620 | pass it on, pass it on to a friend,
00:39:59.080 | to a fellow challenge be-er or a family
00:40:01.760 | who's considering challenge B for next year.
00:40:06.080 | And let me say, if you're enjoying listening
00:40:08.280 | to the Everyday Educator, you might enjoy
00:40:11.240 | our other classical conversations podcasts as well.
00:40:15.280 | If you're a mom looking for parenting tips
00:40:18.280 | or stories of encouragement, just fun, honest conversations
00:40:23.160 | about the ups and downs of motherhood,
00:40:25.840 | join Delice and Jenny on the podcast
00:40:29.280 | Blessings and Motherhood.
00:40:32.400 | And if you're interested in current events or politics
00:40:36.520 | or culture or classical education and how Christianity
00:40:41.520 | relates to all these topics, you're gonna wanna check out
00:40:45.160 | Refining Rhetoric with Robert Bortons.
00:40:49.200 | Robert will guide listeners in using those 15 classical tools
00:40:53.760 | that we were just talking about to navigate current events
00:40:57.400 | and critical issues.
00:40:59.120 | So if either of those sounds up your alley,
00:41:02.480 | you can listen to both of those shows
00:41:05.160 | on your favorite streaming app or on their website
00:41:10.160 | at blessingsandmotherhood.com and refiningrhetoric.com.
00:41:16.360 | As always, it has been a pleasure being with you guys today.
00:41:23.120 | Stephanie, thanks for joining us.
00:41:25.320 | And listeners, I'll see you next time.
00:41:28.840 | (gentle music)
00:41:31.440 | you
00:41:33.500 | [BLANK_AUDIO]