(soft music) - Welcome friends to this episode of the Everyday Educator podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Bailey, and I'm excited to spend some time with you today as we encourage one another, learn together, and ponder the delights and challenges that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime. Whether you're just considering this homeschooling possibility or deep into the daily delight of family learning, I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.

But don't forget, although this online community is awesome, you'll find even closer support in a local CC community. So go to classicalconversations.com and find a community near you today. Well, listeners, I'm excited to welcome you back to the podcast and I'm excited about this episode. Mock trial is something that I loved for a lot of years.

I spent about seven years as a Challenge B tutor years ago, admittedly, but I absolutely loved working on mock trial with my students, with my students who lived in my house and with the students that I tutored week by week. And there were lots of reasons that I loved it.

And I know that some of you have loved it in the past and some of you are looking forward to loving it. And some of you maybe are not as big a fan of mock trial as I am and as my guest is, I'll introduce her in just a second.

So I wanted to use this episode to kind of set your minds at ease if you're anxious about mock trial, cast a vision for what it can become if you are not sure why we do this in Challenge B and what the good of it is, or if you're just not excited about it, I would like to cast a vision that might make you excited.

And I have the perfect guest to do that. Stephanie Meador is here with us today. Stephanie, thanks for joining me. - Thank you, I'm really excited. I happen to know that Stephanie also loves mock trial. Now, why would I invite somebody who did not love mock trial to talk about mock trial, but she has loved it as a student herself and as a tutor mentoring students through the 15 weeks of the mock trial process.

So she has got some great insights to offer us today. And so I'm really glad that she's here. Stephanie, I know that you spent, have spent a good many years yourself as a Challenge B director and interacting with lots of communities at practicums and with parents who are thinking about joining your class and all of that.

Have you ever heard of families considering skipping Challenge B? You know, maybe their student is coming into CC late and they're a little more than the 13 year old age group, 12, 13 year old age group. They could begin in Challenge 1. They're just thinking about skipping Challenge B.

How would you advise them? - Well, I would never advise someone to skip Challenge B because I think it's super fun. First of all, I just think it's a lot of fun. And it's a great level for this age group. I think it really meets students where they are in this transition phase between sort of the younger wanting to just memorize things and have things given to them phase, as opposed to the arguing and taking things apart and putting them back together phase and communicating phase.

Challenge B is a really good example of a program that's kind of tailored to that. It harnesses that energy and helps them learn to learn some discipline, channel that energy. It's just a really good bridge for students to practice reading and writing skills on some easier literature and learn to tackle subjects that are unfamiliar.

I think about formal logic can be intimidating and unfamiliar and it's nice that they tackle that before we have to start thinking about high school credits. And students just build a lot of confidence, I think, through experiences like mock trial. So I wouldn't recommend skipping B just because it's a lot of fun and a really good transitional bridge between that elementary school and high school.

- I love your metaphor of a bridge. I agree with you completely. I mean, let's face it, Challenge B students, especially when B starts in the late summer, early fall, y'all, I love to Challenge B students, but they are still kind of goofy. And they, I think it is, you're really right, Stephanie, it's a really lovely bridge that lets them be who they are and grow into who they're becoming.

That's really good wisdom there. I also know, and partly I know this from speaking at practicums all over the country for so many years. And so I feel like I have a kind of a, I've taken the temperature of a lot of families who look at Challenge B and they worry.

You mentioned unfamiliar subjects like formal logic. So families tend to look at Challenge B and they sometimes are a little worried about that 'cause maybe mom, neither mom nor dad had formal logic, but they're also a little put off, some of them, by the whole idea of mock trial.

They feel like it's gonna be too much for their kids, for their eighth grader. I've had families who have thought about doing Challenge B, but skipping the mock trial seminar for various reasons. Have you ever had this experience? And what would you tell a family that is just really worried about mock trial?

- Yeah, I think there are maybe a couple of reasons that families get nervous about mock trial. And one of them is just that they're worried that it will be too much for their student work-wise. And I mean, I understand that fear mock trial is a lot. You're just given a bunch of case materials and told to do this thing that you've never done before.

But in terms of it just being a lot, I think it's still appropriate for the age because of two things, time and teamwork. So time, mock trial is a semester long process and it's broken into steps. So it is a huge task, yeah, but they have three months to do it.

So students are working on this for their whole semester and working on it little by little in steps that are broken down for them in the challenge guide and the mock trial notebook. And then the other T, the teamwork, there are roles for every type of kid in mock trial.

I mean, if you're a performer kid, if you like to argue, if you want to be a detective, you want to be a leader, but then also if you are quiet and you notice things and you want to support your friends' ideas and you want to do more behind the scenes things, there's something for you there as well.

And every class has kids that are like both of those parties and they learn to work together. They learn to talk and listen. They learn to see things from different perspectives. They learn to win and lose gracefully, not just mock trial at the end, but within their own little team as they are going through this process.

Sometimes their ideas will be the one that everybody adopts and sometimes it's not and they just learn about that. At the end of the day, the time and the teamwork really makes this whole huge endeavor possible. And then I would really hate for kids to miss out on that process because they all can do it.

And the fact that they get to the end of the semester and they have done it builds their confidence like nothing else. - Man, you made so many good points. I was jotting down notes furiously. So much good wisdom in there. I absolutely love the time and teamwork, the double T there.

And that keeps it, you're right, that does keep it from being too much. Students are never left alone to figure it out. I mean, they never are. As homeschoolers and in classical conversations and on community day, nobody's ever left alone. But I love the way that you remind us that they tackle, they eat this elephant one bite at a time.

They work in steps. So then the steps are prescribed for them so that they're not just thrown on their own and we assume that you will know how to break this down in the best possible way. I really like what you said about not depriving our students of the beautiful lessons that they learn.

I never really thought about how much they learn about winning and losing and teamwork during the semester. I really like that. They do learn to put forth an idea and sometimes have their idea adopted and learn how to react to that, respond to that. And then sometimes have their idea not chosen and have to learn how to live with that gracefully.

That's lovely. That's a great thing. And so you have your experience and you've done this more than once or twice. So your experience has been that by and large, it's not too much for an eighth grader to experience. - Yeah, I mean, I've never had a student who couldn't participate in mock trial.

I've had students who given the choice would not have chosen to do this. But at the end of the day, no one has ever, I mean, and maybe this has happened in other communities, but no one's ever cried on the stand. Like no one has ever not been able to do mock trial.

And part of that is just the director wants your student to have a good experience as well. So he or she is not going to give your student a role that isn't a good fit. So there really are roles for all different types of kids. If you have a student who really needs to be fully scripted, there is a role for that.

You can read from a paper if that is where you're at at the end of the semester. - Right. - Yeah, so I've never had it actually be too much for a student. And really every time, by the time it's over, everyone is glad that they did it. I've never had a student just all the way up into the very end, like they still hated it and still didn't wanna do it and it was terrible.

Everyone is always glad that they did it. And they're impressed with themselves. They feel really proud and they should. - Yes, you are right. You know, and I will just mention this, parents who are listening. I have had more parents who are afraid that their child can't do it than I have had students who were afraid that they can't do it.

And part of that is, you know, the eighth grade mindset. They still are pretty sure they can do everything and they are real emboldened to try most anything. Now you do have some students who, for whatever reason, maybe don't like to speak in public or don't like to be put on the spot, don't like to have to think on their feet or various other issues.

But usually it's the parents who are thinking that just sounds like a lot. That is a lot of pressure, that's a lot of thinking, that's a lot of new vocabulary, that's a lot of skills I've never done. I don't know if my child can do this. I think it's just too much pressure.

And usually what we as parents mean is that I'm afraid of this and I'm not sure I can help well. And I think this could go south really easily and I don't think I'm a good tour guide for that. And so parents tend to worry. I had more years that I was a B tutor than not.

I had parents who would come to me about middle of second semester and say, "I'm just not sure this is going well. "I just don't know if my child is gonna be able to do this. "I know what's expected. "I just don't know how this is gonna work out." And I will say, "Well, this is not my first time through." And so I am assuring you that you're going to be very pleasantly surprised by the way that your child steps up to the plate.

And I have told parents, I bet you have too, Stephanie, for years that, okay, this Challenge B student who begins Challenge B in August is absolutely not the same student who is going to present at mock trial in April. These are not the same people, would you agree? - Yes, absolutely.

And also, I will say that every year, mock trial looks very rough for a very long time. - Oh, such a long time. - Every year. Every year, I get into the last two or three weeks and I'm like, "You know what? "This might--" - This is gonna be the year.

- But it always does. Always, it always does. It's so rough for so long and it makes me nervous. But I have at least learned to trust the Lord and then also to trust the process because really, really, by the time it actually happens, I am always impressed. But yeah, the parents coming to you midway saying they don't think this is going well, I mean, the director's like, "Yeah, I don't think it is either." - Yeah, it doesn't look pretty.

It doesn't look pretty. - Right, the process is messy, but the outcome in the end is really always beautiful. - And it is. I will tell you, parents, that it is frankly amazing, even to those of us who have seen it time and again, it is frankly amazing to get to the end and you look at your students and you're listening to them and you think, "And where have these people been all year?" Well, where they have been is becoming.

They have been becoming excellent thinkers. They have been becoming awesome argument architects. They have been becoming clear and persuasive presenters. They have been becoming gracious teammates. And it's beautiful to behold. So I guess what Stephanie and I are saying is don't skip challenge B and don't skip mock trial.

We do understand that mock trial is very polarizing. Some families really look forward to it. Some students really look forward to it. And some students really dread it. Does this happen to you in most of your classes, Stephanie, that you have some that are for and some that are against?

- Yes, yes. Every once in a while you'll have a student who's just neutral. But for the most part, it is in those two camps, the kids who are so excited. - And who are they? Why are they so excited? - Yes, usually these are the loud kids. The loud kids are excited and the quiet kids kind of dread it because they think there's nothing for them to do or nothing that they'll be comfortable doing.

But there is. - Yes, yes. - Yeah, and so it's the students who like to talk that are usually excited. They go into this maybe already even thinking that they want to be lawyers. These are the students whose parents probably feel the dialectic stage like a ton of bricks at home.

- My goodness, yes, yes. - The kids, the students love to argue. They love to collect evidence. They love to challenge things just for fun. They might be the students who write LTW papers with stances that the family does not even believe just to practice. - Yes, yes, devil's advocate positions, yes.

- Yes, yes. Then there's also students who are excited about Mock Trial because they are serious and they love to do big tasks and do them right and apply themselves. These are the students who are detailed oriented. They like to notice things, really iron things out. So not always the argumentative students, but sometimes just the students who like to see details and like to do things right.

- Yeah, or who like to work puzzles. I've had kids, students who like puzzles who like Mock Trial because it's like putting together a puzzle. - Yeah, yeah. And then the students who typically don't look forward to Mock Trial at first, they are those quiet ones who worry that they're too shy to do it, or they've internalized a belief that they can't or that they're not smart enough, which I think is so sad because that's not true.

And I'm sorry that if they would ever think that, because it's like with the guidance of the director and their parents, that doesn't need to be the student's experience. They are capable of doing Mock Trial and just we need to shepherd them and stick up for them and sometimes help classmates learn to listen to them because sometimes these students are quiet.

And I'll be honest, these are the students who will knock your socks off at the end. It is quiet students, the ones who were nervous, who have the biggest transformation in the end, really every time. - Wow. That is such an encouraging thing for the parents on this call to hear, that your go get 'em, I wanna make a splash, students are gonna love Mock Trial.

You're quiet, I want to notice the details, students are gonna love Mock Trial. But also you're retiring, I'm not sure I can do this. Students can be led to see their strengths in this endeavor. And like you have said before, it is very confidence building for all of those students.

You made a good point that all of our students have helpers that are going to help them find success as Mock Trial participators. So they have parents who are, and we wanna talk about how each one of these really does help. They have parents who are gonna be at home and parents who are gonna help you know what you can do to help your Mock Trial student, whatever kind of Mock Trial embracer they are.

They also have the guide which helps them break up the process of building the case into steps that are doable, that are easy to see. And if you will follow all the steps, you will get to the end and have a hold. There won't be things missing. But you also have your director who is gonna guide you by asking you wonderful questions and not telling you what to think or even necessarily how to think, but ask you questions that will show you what the next best step is.

But Stephanie, I want you to encourage our parent listeners also that there are other parts of the Challenge B and other parts of the Classical Conversation curriculum that has come before this that are preparing these students by showing them and sharpening their skills before they ever get to Mock Trial.

Can you speak to that? In what ways do students, other studies help them prepare for Mock Trial thinking? - This is a question that I usually address in my Challenge B orientations because I really think that all of the strands go together and kind of get synthesized in Mock Trial.

So I'll just do broad strokes of what I see and all of the seminars helping, but then three in particular. So from Latin studies, students have been sharpening their attention to details and pattern recognition and even some vocabulary, the legal system and the medical system use a lot of Latin-based words.

So that's helpful from Latin. With formal logic, students can draw a lot from, well, fallacies for sure, but also just general reasoning skills, noticing that you have to build a case slowly with all the necessary pieces and guard against that correlation leading to causality kind of thing. Just because something happened doesn't mean it caused something else and formal logic teaches them to notice that.

With literature, students have practiced persuasion techniques and evidence gathering and learning how to appeal to particular audiences. With history of astronomy, students have worked on a timeline construction and seeing relationships and studying the scientific method, which has some overlap in Mock Trial as well. In their defeating Darwinism studies, they learn a lot about expert testimony and again with some fallacies and how to use evidence.

And then with American Experience Storybook, they have studied storytelling, seeing both sides of an issue, thinking about cause and effect, and then even math is more logical thinking, following the orders of operation, which can be similar to court procedure and that idea of connecting the dots, seeing how everything leads to something else necessarily by the way that a problem is constructed.

But in particular, I know I just went through all of the strands, but I really noticed exposition, the formal logic and the defeating Darwinism, which is the research strand. So the formal logic sort of goes without saying what we've mentioned, the fallacies and the argumentation and defeating Darwinism, learning about expert testimony and evidence.

But short story is one that I actually bring up pretty frequently, both first semester and second semester. So in first semester, students are writing persuasive essays, and you need to learn how to gather proofs or evidence and then support each proof with some supporting facts. And you even want to have an exhortium, an opening to your presentation that catches people's attention.

You need to have a thesis statement. You know, what is the overall argument that you're trying to convince? You need to think about refutation. So what is the other side likely going to say and how will you refute that? So really all of the things from "Lost Tools" comes into play with mock trial.

But then also at the end of the day, what you're doing with mock trial is telling a story. And so we bring in some elements from short story with Frytox Pyramid. What is the setting of your trial? Who are your characters? What is the conflict? Even what is the theme?

We talked about theme and mock trial and trying to guide students to come up with something that is memorable and powerful as the theme for their trial that the jury can hear over and over and associate with your side of the story. Yeah, I mean, really just you are telling a story the whole time.

So what perspective are you going to present to the jury? How are you going to make that compelling and provide enough context and support that the jury thinks? I think you're right. Gosh, that is so good. Parents, you need to play that on repeat for your students, for your challenge B students, because all of those things that they learn and they work on during challenge B are skills that are useful across the board.

That is the coolest thing about a classical education, the connections that exist between all of the things that we learn, all of the things that we study, all of the things that we talk about. And you're absolutely right, Stephanie, the students who pick up on the truth that mock trial is about who tells the best version of the story will convince the judge or jury, if you had a jury, because the truth is you could tell the story a number of different ways.

There are lots of stories to be told within the framework of the case materials for every trial. And it's the person who recognizes that there is likely a theme and if you can pull it out and keep putting it before the hearers, that will carry the day. And recognizing that how you draw the characters will affect how sympathetic the hearer is to your character's cause.

I just think what you said is really, really good. And parents, that will help you to ask good questions as your students begin to work on mock trial. You can ask, even if you don't know anything about court proceedings or this mock trial case, you can ask questions like, what is your character like?

What are his positive qualities? What are the negative qualities? What qualities do you want to highlight? How could you highlight those qualities? What qualities do you want to downplay? And all the things that Stephanie mentioned will really help your student. And you can ask those questions about short story and about mock trial.

So that's really good. That was one of the questions I was gonna ask you, Stephanie, is how much help does the curriculum offer parents who know nothing about trials and court proceedings? So we have said that making sure you understand how the skills practiced in all of the other strands will help your student prepare for mock trial, that's good.

But how does the curriculum help me as a parent who knows, I know none of this vocabulary. I don't know how to build the case. I don't know anything about these procedures. How much is the curriculum gonna help me as a parent? - Well, the curriculum offers enough. You know, it's not going to prepare a student for the bar.

- Right, right. - But students are given real direction as far as they need to be. So the mock trial notebook and the challenge guide walk students through the vocabulary and some of the sentences that they need to know, just how to enter evidence, what the bailiff says at different times.

So the curriculum will give students all that they need. And also it's all that students are allowed to use. So across the board, all the challenge B communities are only allowed to use the challenge guide and the mock trial notebook. So there's not a student who's being wildly coached or brought in with all of this evidence from online or something.

That's not even allowed. There is an opportunity in the challenge guide for a lawyer to come and speak to your community, just to answer questions about court procedure or very general strategy. You know, what may-- - But not specifically about the case, right? - Right, right. - So just general court protocol guidance.

- Sure, and like what makes a good cross examination question generally, and what makes a good direct examination question. So the lawyers are never coaching students on this case. They really probably don't need to know what the case is about at all. But if students want to know just very general strokes about how to write a good question, that's something that they can get from the guest speaker lawyer.

- That's really good. Okay, so the curriculum, the mock trial notebook, and my child's director are enough to help me help my child do this well. - Yeah, that's all you need. Yeah, and a lot of times-- - That is so good. - There's just collaboration and community between the students, which I think is where they probably learn the most.

- Yes, I was gonna ask you, what do the students get from community day activities? And so you said they get confidence. What else do they get, practice? - Yes, community day is where a lot of the collaboration happens. So students may meet together outside of community, especially once the roles are assigned about halfway through the semester, but they should not have to meet outside of community very often, if at all.

So in challenge B, in person, in community, is where you break into your groups and talk about the witness statements, where you saw discrepancies, what you think might have happened, what kinds of questions you want to ask. So community day is when a lot of that collaboration happens and what you're collaborating on specifically is broken down by the challenge guide as well.

So it will tell you the weeks that you are studying and rewriting witness statements or learning to write direct examination questions or cross-examination questions or learning about opening statements and closing arguments. So the challenge B guide and the mock trial notebook tell you what to focus on. And then in community, students do.

The director will usually give the students some guiding questions or a particular activity to do and then students work on that in community together. - Gosh, that is so good. It's making me feel excited about mock trial again and I don't really have the opportunity to work on a mock trial with students right now, but it's getting me excited again.

And I suspect that there are lots of sighs of relief going through our listening audience right now. Thinking, well, this does not sound so over the top. This does not sound like something we can't do and enjoy as a family. And I really think that that was my aim for this podcast.

So I appreciate Stephanie, you talking us through that so very well. Parents, I want to encourage you. We have spent the last several summers learning together during practicums ever more about our tools of learning, our classical tools, the five core habits and the five common topics and the five canons.

And so I want to remind you as parent lead learners who have worked to put these tools into practice in your homeschool, that these are still the tools that will help you and your student explore this new subject, this mock trial subject. So naming, naming all the participants in the trial and all the parts of the trial, the opening statement and the cross exam and the direct exam and what does the bailiff do and all of that.

The attending to the details of the trial, whether that means just reading it over and over until you notice a new detail every time, that's really important. Memorizing, what is it that your student needs to memorize? Are there pieces of the witness statement that need to be committed to memory?

Are there procedures that you need to have memorized so that in the moment of nervousness during the trial, you don't forget what to do? Are there ways that you can express yourself? Student, one of the most fun parts of mock trial for students is that they get to act out other characters.

Stephanie, have you had students that really love the acting out part? - Yes, yes. I have had students that I now associate, well, I associate different roles with the particular students who just knocked it out of the park. I love that. - Yes, I love it. And there are kids who just love to become their character and they find different ways of expressing traits or truths about their characters or situations.

All of those tools of learning, those classical tools, parents, you can use those to help your student mind the depths of this mock trial project. I just think that it is such an opportunity for it all to come together. For me, mock trial is the synthesis of all the skills the students have practiced so far.

How do you see that, Stephanie? - The synthesis of all of the strands? - Of all the skills, like all the skills. Have you seen that come? Have you seen them synthesize all the skills that you as a tutor have worked on with them through the Challenge B year and channel them all as they work on this presentation?

- Yes, absolutely, absolutely. All of the skills that we learned in the strands that I kind of had listed them earlier, all of that comes into play big time. And I think it's fun to watch. Students realize that as well. I'll tell them that they're going to see this big synthesis at orientation and they're not really thinking about that yet.

But at the end of the year, when they actually get to feel it, I think it's very, very cool. And I love to unpack with them after the trial has taken place. What did you learn? What skills do you see being important? And I have a little document on my computer called Collective Mock Trial Wisdom.

And it's just kind of the students' takeaways from years and years about what they learned, what they wish they had known, and how they saw all of their skills working together. - Oh, I love that. Collective wisdom. And I salute you for having that after mock trial talk with your students so they can look back and recognize the strides they made and the connections that they made.

I think that's really, really good. What, out of all your years of Tutoring Bee and shepherding these mock trial teams, what have you seen students gain from their participation? - I know I keep saying it, but really confidence. The students are so, and just a healthy amount of pride in the work that they've done.

They get to the end of the semester and they know that it was a job well done. And I also see that their friendships are deeper as well, because going through an experience like this, sort of doing a big task that seemed scary at the beginning, builds relationships in a very deep way.

So students have seen each other struggle really hard and they've seen each other succeed and it knits their hearts together in a way that's really cool. So confidence, but also deeper friendships, I think. - That is lovely. What a blessing. And parents, what parent would not choose to have your child participate in an activity for 15 weeks that was gonna teach them how to be a better friend, who was going to imbue them with greater confidence?

Because I will tell you, I agree 100% with what you said about confidence, Stephanie. I have seen it absolutely change students to come out on the other side and recognize that they did this hard thing that in lots of ways was harder than they ever thought it would be.

And for some of them, they did a hard thing that they were scared to do, or they were unsure of how it would turn out. To come through that and to know that they did it and that they pushed through with their friends that together they did this great thing builds confidence like absolutely nothing else that I have ever seen.

And it carries over, that confidence carries over to the next time they're faced with something they've never done before that other people think is hard. They seem to have a resilience and a, well, I did it once, I can do it again, attitude that is beautiful to behold. All right, Stephanie, I want you to finish this sentence.

Mock, because the title of our podcast today was Mock Trial, What's the Big Deal? So I ask you to finish this sentence. Mock trial is a big deal because? - It's transformative, is what I would say. - Ah, I love it. Mock trial is a big deal because it's transformative.

I would give you two thumbs up for that. All right, parents, you have signed up for a transformative experience with your child. So I suggest to you that not only will your child be transformed, but you can be transformed by mock trial and your experience with it as well.

Stephanie, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your collective wisdom of the years about mock trial with us, I really appreciate it. - You're welcome. - Parents, if you have listened to this episode of the Everyday Educator and it has helped you in any way, pass it on, pass it on to a friend, to a fellow challenge be-er or a family who's considering challenge B for next year.

And let me say, if you're enjoying listening to the Everyday Educator, you might enjoy our other classical conversations podcasts as well. If you're a mom looking for parenting tips or stories of encouragement, just fun, honest conversations about the ups and downs of motherhood, join Delice and Jenny on the podcast Blessings and Motherhood.

And if you're interested in current events or politics or culture or classical education and how Christianity relates to all these topics, you're gonna wanna check out Refining Rhetoric with Robert Bortons. Robert will guide listeners in using those 15 classical tools that we were just talking about to navigate current events and critical issues.

So if either of those sounds up your alley, you can listen to both of those shows on your favorite streaming app or on their website at blessingsandmotherhood.com and refiningrhetoric.com. As always, it has been a pleasure being with you guys today. Stephanie, thanks for joining us. And listeners, I'll see you next time.

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