Israel-Palestine Debate: Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris

00:00:00.000 | - That's a good point.

00:00:01.440 | No, no, it's a good point.

00:00:02.360 | - Now, some people accuse me of speaking very slowly

00:00:06.200 | and they're advised on YouTube to turn up the speed

00:00:09.800 | twice to three times whenever I'm on.

00:00:13.020 | One of the reasons I speak slowly

00:00:15.600 | is because I attach value to every word I say.

00:00:20.320 | - Normal say this all over and over and over again.

00:00:22.560 | I only deal in facts, I don't deal in hypotheticals.

00:00:24.560 | I only deal in facts, I only deal in facts.

00:00:27.260 | And that seems to be the case,

00:00:28.120 | except for when the facts are completely and totally contrary

00:00:30.320 | to the particular point you're trying to push.

00:00:32.520 | The idea that Jews would have out of hand rejected

00:00:36.040 | any state that had Arabs on it

00:00:37.640 | or always had a plan of expulsion

00:00:38.920 | is just betrayed by the acceptance

00:00:40.440 | of the 47 partition plan.

00:00:41.280 | - I don't think you understand politics.

00:00:43.600 | - They forced the British to prevent emigration

00:00:45.920 | of Jews from Europe and reaching safe shores in Palestine.

00:00:49.080 | That's what they did.

00:00:49.920 | - Well, again, was Palestine--

00:00:50.740 | - And they knew that the Jews were being persecuted

00:00:52.880 | in Europe at the time.

00:00:53.720 | - Was Palestine the only spot of land on earth?

00:00:56.760 | - Yes, basically that was the problem.

00:00:58.400 | The Jews couldn't emigrate anywhere else.

00:00:59.800 | - What about your great friends in Britain,

00:01:02.240 | the architects of the Balfour Declaration?

00:01:04.280 | - By the late 1930s, they weren't happy to take in Jews

00:01:07.780 | and the Americans weren't happy to take in Jews.

00:01:09.880 | - And why are Palestinians who were not Europeans,

00:01:12.960 | who had zero role in the rise of Nazism,

00:01:16.280 | who had no relation to any of this,

00:01:18.200 | why are they somehow uniquely responsible

00:01:21.400 | for what happened in Europe and uniquely culpable?

00:01:23.840 | - They were helping to close the only safe haven for Jews.

00:01:25.640 | - Professor Morris, because of your logic,

00:01:29.120 | and I'm not disputing it, that's why October 7th happened.

00:01:33.040 | - Oh my God.

00:01:34.000 | - Because there was no options left for those people.

00:01:38.600 | - The Hamas guys who attacked the kibbutzim,

00:01:41.720 | apart from the attacks on the military sites,

00:01:44.440 | when they attacked the kibbutzim,

00:01:45.880 | were out to kill civilians,

00:01:47.680 | and they killed family after family, house after house.

00:01:51.240 | - Talk fast, people think that you're coherent.

00:01:53.400 | - I'm just reading from the UN.

00:01:54.600 | - Yeah, but you see, you got, you got the money.

00:01:56.240 | - I know you like them sometimes,

00:01:57.080 | only when they agree with you, though,

00:01:57.900 | that you've lied about this particular instance in the past.

00:02:00.160 | Those kids weren't just on the beach

00:02:01.760 | as is often stated in articles,

00:02:02.760 | those kids were literally coming out

00:02:03.920 | of a previously identified Hamas compound

00:02:06.280 | that they had operated from.

00:02:07.120 | - Yeah, yeah, Mr. Borelli, Mr. Borelli,

00:02:10.120 | with all due respect, with all due respect,

00:02:13.000 | you're such a fantastic moron, it's terrifying.

00:02:16.160 | - The following is a debate

00:02:19.680 | on the topic of Israel and Palestine

00:02:22.000 | with Norman Finkelstein, Benny Morris,

00:02:24.720 | Muin Rabbani, and Stephen Bunnell,

00:02:26.640 | also known online as Destiny.

00:02:29.320 | Norm and Benny are historians,

00:02:31.480 | Muin is a Middle East analyst,

00:02:33.960 | and Stephen is a political commentator and streamer.

00:02:37.080 | All four have spoken and debated extensively on this topic.

00:02:41.360 | The goal for this debate was not for anyone to win

00:02:44.320 | or to score points.

00:02:46.480 | It wasn't to get views or likes.

00:02:49.360 | I never care about those.

00:02:51.240 | And I think there are probably much easier ways

00:02:53.600 | to get those things if I did care.

00:02:56.080 | The goal was to explore together the history,

00:02:59.920 | present and future of Israel and Palestine

00:03:02.160 | in a free-flowing conversation, no time limits, no rules.

00:03:06.760 | There was a lot of tension in the room

00:03:09.520 | from the very beginning,

00:03:10.920 | and it only got more intense as we went along.

00:03:15.000 | And I quickly realized that this very conversation

00:03:18.520 | in a very real human way was a microcosm

00:03:22.920 | of the tensions and distance and perspectives

00:03:25.320 | on the topic of Israel and Palestine.

00:03:27.160 | For some debates, I will step in

00:03:30.240 | and moderate strictly to prevent emotion from boiling.

00:03:33.120 | For this, I saw the value in not interfering

00:03:35.960 | with the passion of the exchanges

00:03:37.800 | because that emotion in itself spoke volumes.

00:03:41.160 | We did talk about the history and the future,

00:03:45.080 | but the anger, the frustration, the biting wit,

00:03:48.920 | and at times, respect and camaraderie were all there.

00:03:53.720 | Like I said, we did it in a perhaps all too human way.

00:03:58.720 | I will do more debates and conversations

00:04:01.520 | on these difficult topics,

00:04:03.040 | and I will continue to search for hope

00:04:05.880 | in the midst of death and destruction,

00:04:08.120 | to search for our common humanity

00:04:10.880 | in the midst of division and hate.

00:04:13.920 | This thing we have going on, human civilization,

00:04:17.960 | the whole of it, is beautiful.

00:04:20.280 | And it's worth figuring out

00:04:23.080 | how we can help it flourish together.

00:04:26.000 | I love you all.

00:04:27.840 | This is "Alex Friedman Podcast."

00:04:31.000 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:04:32.720 | in the description.

00:04:33.760 | And now, dear friends, here's Norman Finkelstein,

00:04:37.760 | Benny Morris, Moyin Rabbani, and Stephen Bunnell.

00:04:42.680 | First question is about 1948.

00:04:45.760 | For Israelis, 1948 is the establishment

00:04:48.680 | of the State of Israel and the War of Independence.

00:04:51.440 | For Palestinians, 1948 is the Nakba,

00:04:54.280 | which means catastrophe,

00:04:56.160 | or the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians

00:04:59.320 | from their homes as a consequence of the war.

00:05:02.000 | What to you is important to understand

00:05:04.280 | about the events of 1948 and the period around there,

00:05:07.480 | '47, '49, that helps us understand what's going on today?

00:05:12.240 | And maybe helps us understand the roots of all of this

00:05:15.560 | that started even before 1948?

00:05:17.640 | I was hoping that Norm could speak first,

00:05:20.360 | and Benny, then Moyin, and then Stephen.

00:05:23.360 | Norm?

00:05:25.000 | - After World War II, the British decided

00:05:30.000 | that they didn't want to deal

00:05:32.120 | with the Palestine question anymore,

00:05:35.120 | and the ball was thrown into the court of the United Nations.

00:05:40.680 | Now, as I read the record, the UN was not attempting

00:05:45.680 | to arbitrate or adjudicate rights and wrongs.

00:05:50.600 | It was confronting a very practical problem.

00:05:53.960 | There were two national communities in Palestine,

00:06:00.040 | and there were irreconcilable differences

00:06:04.040 | on fundamental questions, most importantly,

00:06:07.640 | looking at the historic record

00:06:09.960 | on the question of immigration,

00:06:12.560 | and associated with the question of immigration,

00:06:15.920 | the question of land.

00:06:17.560 | The UN Special Committee on Palestine,

00:06:23.640 | which came into being before the UN 181 Partition Resolution,

00:06:28.640 | the UN Special Committee recommended

00:06:33.400 | two states in Palestine.

00:06:36.560 | There was a minority position represented

00:06:40.240 | by Iran, India, Yugoslavia.

00:06:45.240 | They supported one state,

00:06:48.320 | but they believed that if forced to,

00:06:53.320 | the two communities would figure out

00:06:57.600 | some sort of modus vivendi and live together.

00:07:03.400 | The United Nations General Assembly supported partition

00:07:08.200 | between what it called a Jewish state and an Arab state.

00:07:12.600 | Now, in my reading of the record,

00:07:16.480 | and I understand there's new scholarship on the subject,

00:07:18.920 | which I've not read, but so far as I've read the record,

00:07:23.560 | there's no clarity on what the United Nations

00:07:28.800 | General Assembly meant by a Jewish state and an Arab state,

00:07:33.800 | except for the fact that the Jewish state

00:07:38.240 | would be demographically, the majority would be Jewish,

00:07:43.240 | and the Arab state demographically would be Arab.

00:07:48.040 | The UNSCOP, the UN Special Committee on Palestine,

00:07:54.320 | it was very clear, and it was reiterated many times,

00:07:59.320 | that in recommending two states,

00:08:04.560 | each state, the Arab state and the Jewish state,

00:08:08.960 | would have to guarantee full equality of all citizens

00:08:13.960 | with regard to political, civil, and religious matters.

00:08:18.920 | Now, that does raise the question,

00:08:22.200 | if there is absolute full equality of all citizens,

00:08:27.200 | both in the Jewish state and the Arab state,

00:08:31.560 | with regard to political rights,

00:08:33.800 | civil rights, and religious rights,

00:08:37.320 | apart from the demographic majority,

00:08:41.400 | it's very unclear what it meant to call a state Jewish

00:08:45.360 | or call the state Arab.

00:08:49.080 | In my view, the partition resolution

00:08:53.480 | was the correct decision.

00:08:55.400 | I do not believe that the Arab and Jewish communities

00:09:01.280 | could, at that point, be made to live together.

00:09:06.080 | I disagree with the minority position

00:09:08.840 | of India, Iran, and Yugoslavia,

00:09:12.040 | and that not being a practical option,

00:09:16.320 | two states, was the only other option.

00:09:19.640 | In this regard, I would want to pay tribute

00:09:25.400 | to what was probably the most moving speech

00:09:28.800 | at the UN General Assembly proceedings

00:09:32.080 | by the Soviet foreign minister, Gromyko.

00:09:36.360 | I was very tempted to quote it at length,

00:09:41.000 | but I recognized that would be taking too much time.

00:09:47.000 | So I asked a young friend, Jamie Stern-Weiner,

00:09:52.000 | to edit it and just get the essence

00:09:56.600 | of what Foreign Minister Gromyko had to say.

00:09:59.760 | "During the last war," Gromyko said,

00:10:04.920 | "the Jewish people underwent exceptional sorrow

00:10:09.920 | "and suffering without any exaggeration,

00:10:15.840 | "this sorrow and suffering are indescribable.

00:10:20.120 | "Hundreds of thousands of Jews are wandering about

00:10:25.560 | "in various countries of Europe

00:10:28.480 | "in search of means of existence and in search of shelter.

00:10:33.040 | "The United Nations cannot and must not regard

00:10:38.600 | "this situation with indifference.

00:10:42.440 | "Past experience, particularly during the Second World War,

00:10:47.440 | "shows that no Western European state

00:10:52.720 | "was able to provide adequate assistance

00:10:56.640 | "for the Jewish people in defending its rights

00:11:00.440 | "and its very existence from the violence

00:11:03.800 | "of the Hitlerites and their allies.

00:11:08.000 | "This is an unpleasant fact, but unfortunately,

00:11:12.920 | "like all other facts, it must be admitted."

00:11:17.200 | Gromyko went on to say, "In principle,

00:11:22.880 | "he supports one state," or the Soviet Union

00:11:26.240 | supports one state, "but," he said,

00:11:30.280 | "if relations between the Jewish and Arab populations

00:11:34.000 | "of Palestine proved to be so bad

00:11:38.880 | "that it would be impossible to reconcile them

00:11:42.280 | "and to ensure the peaceful coexistence

00:11:44.840 | "of the Arabs and the Jews,

00:11:46.960 | "the Soviet Union would support two states.

00:11:51.560 | "I personally am not convinced

00:11:57.720 | "that the two states would have been unsustainable

00:12:01.200 | "in the long term if," and this is a big if,

00:12:06.200 | "the Zionist movement had been faithful

00:12:10.520 | "to the position it proclaimed

00:12:13.040 | "during the UNSCOP public hearings."

00:12:16.640 | At the time, Ben-Gurion testified,

00:12:20.360 | "I want to express what we mean by a Jewish state.

00:12:29.400 | "We mean by a Jewish state simply a state

00:12:33.040 | "where the majority of the people are Jews,

00:12:36.600 | "not a state where a Jew has in any way,

00:12:41.280 | "any privilege more than anyone else.

00:12:45.600 | "A Jewish state means a state based on absolute equality

00:12:50.600 | "of all her citizens and on democracy.

00:12:57.640 | "Alas, this was not to be.

00:13:00.680 | "As Professor Morris has written,

00:13:04.440 | "quote, Zionist ideology and practice

00:13:09.760 | "were necessarily and elementally expansionist."

00:13:14.760 | And then he wrote in another book,

00:13:19.480 | "Transfer," the euphemism for expulsion,

00:13:24.620 | "Transfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism

00:13:29.620 | "because it sought to transform a land

00:13:35.320 | "which was Arab into a Jewish state.

00:13:39.980 | "And a Jewish state could not have arisen

00:13:43.360 | "without a major displacement of Arab population.

00:13:47.940 | "And because this aim automatically produced resistance

00:13:53.820 | "among the Arabs, which in turn,

00:13:57.020 | "persuaded the Yishuv's leaders,"

00:13:59.140 | the Yishuv being the Jewish community,

00:14:01.520 | "the Yishuv's leaders that a hostile Arab majority

00:14:06.100 | "or a large minority could not remain in place

00:14:11.100 | "if a Jewish state was to arise or safely endure.

00:14:15.340 | "Or as Professor Morris retrospectively put it,

00:14:20.660 | "quote, a removing of a population was needed.

00:14:25.660 | "Without a population expulsion,

00:14:32.020 | "a Jewish state would not have been established."

00:14:36.140 | Unquote.

00:14:37.900 | "The Arab side rejected outright the partition resolution."

00:14:44.120 | I won't play games with that.

00:14:46.660 | I know a lot of people tried to prove it's not true.

00:14:49.740 | It clearly, in my view, is true.

00:14:52.780 | "The Arab side rejected outright the partition resolution.

00:14:57.780 | "While Israeli leaders, acting on the compulsions,

00:15:03.220 | "inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism,

00:15:09.580 | "found the pretext in the course

00:15:13.140 | "of the first Arab-Israeli war

00:15:16.060 | "to expel the indigenous population

00:15:19.220 | "and expand its borders.

00:15:21.320 | "I therefore conclude that neither side

00:15:27.180 | "was committed to the letter of the partition resolution

00:15:32.080 | "and both sides aborted it."

00:15:35.160 | - Thank you, Norm.

00:15:36.000 | Norm asked that we make a lengthy statement

00:15:38.300 | in the beginning.

00:15:39.540 | Benny, I hope it's okay to call everybody

00:15:41.500 | by their first name in the name of camaraderie.

00:15:44.540 | Norm has quoted several things you said.

00:15:47.420 | Perhaps you can comment broadly on the question of 1948

00:15:50.220 | and maybe respond to the things that Norm said.

00:15:53.540 | - Yeah, UNSCOP, the United Nations Special Committee

00:15:57.620 | on Palestine, recommended partition,

00:16:01.420 | the majority of UNSCOP, recommended partition,

00:16:03.520 | which was accepted by the UN General Assembly

00:16:05.580 | in November 1947.

00:16:08.340 | Essentially, looking back to the Peel Commission in 1937,

00:16:13.260 | 10 years earlier, a British commission had looked

00:16:15.700 | at the problem of Palestine, the two warring national groups

00:16:19.900 | who refused to live together, if you like,

00:16:22.820 | or consolidate a unitary state between them.

00:16:27.820 | And Peel said there should be two states.

00:16:31.760 | That's the principle.

00:16:33.140 | The country must be partitioned into two states.

00:16:35.500 | This would give a modicum of justice to both sides,

00:16:38.780 | if not all their demands, of course.

00:16:41.300 | And the United Nations followed suit.

00:16:44.860 | The United Nations, UNSCOP,

00:16:46.300 | and then the UN General Assembly representing the will

00:16:48.540 | of the international community said two states

00:16:51.820 | is the just solution in this complex situation.

00:16:55.780 | The problem was that immediately with the passage

00:16:58.580 | of the resolution, the Arab states

00:17:01.700 | and the Arabs of Palestine said no,

00:17:03.980 | as Norman Finkelstein said.

00:17:06.900 | They said no, they rejected the partition idea,

00:17:10.480 | the principle of partition, not just the idea

00:17:12.780 | of what percentage which side should get,

00:17:15.060 | but the principle of partition they said no to.

00:17:17.820 | The Jews should not have any part of Palestine

00:17:20.340 | for their sovereign territory.

00:17:23.060 | Maybe Jews could live as a minority in Palestine.

00:17:25.740 | That also was problematic in the eyes

00:17:27.500 | of the Palestinian Arab leadership.

00:17:29.860 | Husseini had said only Jews who were there before 1917

00:17:33.820 | could actually get citizenship and continue to live there.

00:17:37.340 | But the Arabs rejected partition,

00:17:39.380 | and the Arabs of Palestine launched

00:17:41.660 | in very disorganized fashion war against the resolution,

00:17:45.220 | against the implementation of the resolution,

00:17:47.260 | against the Jewish community in Palestine.

00:17:49.920 | And this was their defeat in that civil war

00:17:54.080 | between the two communities while the British

00:17:56.180 | were withdrawing from Palestine,

00:17:57.780 | led to the Arab invasion, the invasion by the Arab states

00:18:03.060 | in May 1948 of the country.

00:18:06.580 | Again, basically with the idea of eradicating

00:18:09.540 | or preventing the emergence of a Jewish state

00:18:12.280 | in line with the United Nations decision

00:18:15.420 | and the will of the international community.

00:18:17.940 | Norman said that the Zionist enterprise,

00:18:21.900 | and he quoted me, meant from the beginning

00:18:24.580 | to transfer or expel the Arabs of Palestine

00:18:29.700 | or some of the Arabs of Palestine.

00:18:32.220 | And I think he's sort of quoting out of context.

00:18:35.340 | The context in which the statements were made

00:18:38.220 | that the Jewish state could only emerge

00:18:42.220 | if there was a transfer of Arab population

00:18:44.680 | was preceded in the way I wrote it

00:18:47.400 | and the way it actually happened

00:18:49.220 | by Arab resistance and hostilities

00:18:52.380 | towards the Jewish community.

00:18:53.580 | Had the Arabs accepted partition,

00:18:55.460 | there would have been a large Arab minority

00:18:57.900 | in the Jewish state which emerged in '47.

00:19:01.220 | And in fact, Jewish economists and state builders

00:19:05.460 | took into account that there would be a large Arab minority

00:19:09.340 | and its needs would be cared for, et cetera.

00:19:12.740 | But this was not to be because the Arabs attacked.

00:19:16.380 | And had they not attacked,

00:19:17.820 | perhaps a Jewish state with a large Arab minority

00:19:21.940 | could have emerged, but this didn't happen.

00:19:24.580 | They went to war, the Jews resisted,

00:19:26.580 | and in the course of that war,

00:19:28.700 | Arab populations were driven out.

00:19:31.580 | Some were expelled, some left because Arab leaders

00:19:35.420 | advised them to leave or ordered them to leave.

00:19:38.260 | And at the end of the war, Israel said they can't return

00:19:41.340 | 'cause they just tried to destroy the Jewish state.

00:19:43.900 | And that's the basic reality of what happened in '48.

00:19:49.260 | The Jews created a state.

00:19:50.660 | The Palestinian Arabs never bothered

00:19:52.340 | to even try to create a state before '48

00:19:55.400 | and in the course of the 1948 war.

00:19:58.100 | And for that reason, they have no state to this day.

00:20:01.480 | The Jews do have a state 'cause they prepared

00:20:03.340 | to establish a state, fought for it,

00:20:06.020 | and established it hopefully lastingly.

00:20:11.020 | - When you say hostility, in case people are not familiar,

00:20:14.860 | there was a full-on war where Arab states invaded

00:20:19.380 | and Israel won that war.

00:20:24.140 | - Let me just add to clarify.

00:20:26.140 | The war had two parts to it.

00:20:28.660 | The first part was the Arab community in Palestine,

00:20:31.740 | its militiamen, attacked the Jews from November 1947.

00:20:36.740 | In other words, from the day after

00:20:39.220 | the UN partition resolution was passed,

00:20:41.780 | Arab gunmen were busy shooting up Jews,

00:20:44.340 | and that snowballed into a full-scale civil war

00:20:47.140 | between the two communities in Palestine.

00:20:49.840 | In May 1948, a second stage began in the war

00:20:53.860 | in which the Arab states invaded the new state,

00:20:56.660 | attacked the new state, and they too were defeated,

00:21:00.500 | and thus a state of Israel emerged.

00:21:03.000 | In the course of this two-stage war,

00:21:06.100 | a vast Palestinian refugee problem occurred.

00:21:09.460 | - And so after that, the transfer, the expulsion,

00:21:15.100 | the thing that people call the Nakba happened.

00:21:20.100 | William, could you speak to 1948

00:21:21.980 | and the historical significance of it?

00:21:23.720 | - Sure, there's a lot to unpack here.

00:21:27.500 | I'll try to limit myself to just a few points.

00:21:32.500 | Regarding Zionism and transfer,

00:21:36.420 | I think Chaim Weizmann,

00:21:39.140 | the head of the World Zionist Organization,

00:21:41.280 | had it exactly right when he said

00:21:44.500 | that the objective of Zionism is to make Palestine

00:21:48.180 | as Jewish as England is English, or France is French.

00:21:53.280 | In other words, as Norman explained,

00:21:58.280 | a Jewish state requires Jewish political,

00:22:05.320 | demographic, and territorial supremacy.

00:22:11.440 | Without those three elements,

00:22:13.840 | the state would be Jewish in name only.

00:22:16.720 | And I think what distinguishes Zionism

00:22:19.640 | is its insistence, supremacy, and exclusivity.

00:22:24.640 | That would be my first point.

00:22:26.960 | The second point is I think

00:22:29.780 | what the Soviet foreign minister at the time,

00:22:32.100 | Andrei Gromyko, said is exactly right with one reservation.

00:22:37.100 | Gromyko was describing a European savagery

00:22:44.060 | unleashed against Europe's Jews.

00:22:46.580 | At the time, it wasn't Palestinians or Arabs.

00:22:50.940 | The savages and the barbarians were European to the core.

00:22:54.460 | It had nothing to do with developments

00:22:59.060 | in Palestine or the Middle East.

00:23:03.960 | Secondly, at the time that Gromyko was speaking,

00:23:07.020 | those Jewish survivors of the Holocaust

00:23:12.200 | and others who were in need of safe haven

00:23:16.380 | were still overwhelmingly on the European continent

00:23:20.820 | and not on Palestine, not in Palestine.

00:23:24.500 | And I think given the scale of the savagery,

00:23:29.500 | I don't think that any one state or country

00:23:35.580 | should have borne the responsibility

00:23:38.940 | for addressing this crisis.

00:23:40.540 | I think it should have been an international responsibility.

00:23:46.260 | The Soviet Union could have contributed.

00:23:48.500 | Germany certainly could and should have contributed.

00:23:51.980 | The United Kingdom and the United States,

00:23:55.980 | which slammed their doors shut

00:23:58.420 | to the persecuted Jews of Europe

00:24:01.220 | as the Nazis were rising to power,

00:24:03.460 | they certainly should have played a role.

00:24:06.260 | But instead, what passed for the international community

00:24:09.740 | at the time decided to partition Palestine.

00:24:14.460 | And here, I think we need to judge the partition resolution

00:24:18.940 | against the realities that obtained at the time.

00:24:21.600 | 2/3 of the population of Palestine was Arab.

00:24:26.980 | The Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine,

00:24:31.260 | constituted about 1/3 of the total population

00:24:35.700 | and controlled even less of the land within Palestine

00:24:42.800 | as a preeminent Palestinian historian,

00:24:45.780 | Walid Al-Khalidi has pointed out.

00:24:49.340 | The partition resolution in giving roughly 55% of Palestine

00:24:54.340 | to the Jewish community and I think 41, 42%

00:25:00.400 | to the Arab community, to the Palestinians,

00:25:05.540 | did not preserve the position of each community

00:25:09.560 | or even favor one community at the expense of the others.

00:25:14.560 | Rather, it thoroughly inverted and revolutionized

00:25:19.600 | the relationship between the two communities.

00:25:25.360 | And as many have written,

00:25:28.200 | the Nakba was the inevitable consequence of partition

00:25:33.200 | given the nature of Zionism,

00:25:37.400 | given the territorial disposition,

00:25:39.880 | given the weakness of the Palestinian community

00:25:42.640 | whose leadership had been largely decimated

00:25:46.040 | during a major revolt at the end of the 1930s,

00:25:49.840 | given that the Arab states were still very much

00:25:53.660 | under French and British influence.

00:25:55.940 | The Nakba was inevitable,

00:26:00.360 | the inevitable product of the partition resolution.

00:26:05.360 | And one last point also about the UN's partition resolution

00:26:10.360 | is yes, formally that is what the international community

00:26:16.320 | decided on the 29th of November, 1947.

00:26:19.980 | It's not a resolution that could ever have gotten

00:26:22.320 | through the UN General Assembly today

00:26:24.320 | for a very simple reason.

00:26:26.120 | It was a very different General Assembly.

00:26:28.460 | Most African, most Asian states were not yet independent.

00:26:34.560 | Were the resolution to be placed

00:26:36.920 | before the international community today,

00:26:39.640 | and I find it telling that the minority opinion

00:26:44.340 | was led by India, Iran, and Yugoslavia,

00:26:47.280 | I think they would have represented the clear majority.

00:26:51.900 | So partition, given what we know about Zionism,

00:26:56.900 | given that it was entirely predictable what would happen,

00:27:01.640 | given the realities on the ground in Palestine

00:27:06.640 | was deeply unjust.

00:27:08.600 | And the idea that either the Palestinians

00:27:11.280 | or the Arab states could have accepted such a resolution

00:27:16.280 | is, I think, an illusion.

00:27:21.480 | That was in 1947.

00:27:23.480 | We saw what happened in '48 and '49.

00:27:26.440 | Palestinian society was essentially destroyed

00:27:30.660 | over 80%, I believe, of Palestinians resident

00:27:34.840 | in the territory that became the state of Israel

00:27:37.520 | were either expelled or fled,

00:27:40.520 | and ultimately were ethnically cleansed

00:27:42.900 | because ethnic cleansing consists of two components.

00:27:45.640 | It's not just forcing people into refuge or expelling them.

00:27:49.580 | It's just, as importantly, preventing their return.

00:27:53.160 | And here, and Benny Morris has written, I think,

00:27:56.320 | an article about Yosef Weiz and the transfer committees.

00:28:00.420 | There was a very detailed initiative to prevent their return

00:28:04.180 | and it consisted of raising hundreds

00:28:06.520 | of Palestinian villages to the ground,

00:28:08.880 | which was systematically implemented, and so on.

00:28:11.440 | And so Palestinians became a stateless people.

00:28:14.800 | Now, what is the most important reason

00:28:18.200 | that no Arab state was established in Palestine?

00:28:22.440 | Well, since the 1930s, the Zionist leadership

00:28:27.260 | and the Hashemite leadership of Jordan,

00:28:32.260 | as has been thoroughly researched and written about

00:28:36.760 | by the Israeli-British historian Avi Shleim,

00:28:39.580 | essentially colluded to prevent the establishment

00:28:44.580 | of an independent Arab state in Palestine in the late 1940s.

00:28:49.760 | There's much more here, but I think those are the key points.

00:28:56.800 | I would make about 1948.

00:28:59.960 | - We may talk about Zionism, Britain, UN assemblies,

00:29:03.700 | and all the things you mentioned, there's a lot to dig into.

00:29:06.700 | So again, if we can keep it to just one statement

00:29:10.220 | moving forward after Stephen, if you wanna go a little longer.

00:29:14.060 | Also, we should acknowledge the fact

00:29:15.580 | that the speaking speeds of people here are different.

00:29:18.960 | Stephen speaks about 10 times faster than me.

00:29:22.820 | Stephen, do you want to comment on 1948?

00:29:25.540 | - Yeah, I think it's interesting

00:29:27.260 | where people choose to start the history.

00:29:30.020 | I noticed a lot of people like to start at either '47 or '48

00:29:33.260 | because it's the first time where they can clearly point

00:29:35.380 | to a catastrophe that occurs on the Arab side

00:29:38.160 | that they want to ascribe 100% of the blame

00:29:40.580 | to the newly emergent Israeli state to.

00:29:43.960 | But I feel like when you have this type

00:29:46.460 | of reading of history, it feels like the goal

00:29:48.620 | is to moralize everything first,

00:29:50.580 | and then to pick and choose facts

00:29:52.100 | that kind of support the statements

00:29:53.400 | of your initial moral statement afterwards.

00:29:55.740 | Whenever people are talking about '48

00:29:58.480 | or the establishment of the Arab state,

00:30:00.340 | I never hear about the fact that a civil war started in '47.

00:30:05.340 | That was largely instigated because of the Arab rejectionism

00:30:08.480 | of the '47 partition plan.

00:30:10.600 | I never hear about the fact that the majority

00:30:12.620 | of the land that was acquired happened by purchases

00:30:15.320 | from Jewish organizations of Palestinian Arabs

00:30:19.460 | of the Ottoman Empire before the mandatory period

00:30:22.100 | in 1920 even started.

00:30:24.260 | Funnily enough, King Abdullah of Jordan was quoted

00:30:26.980 | as saying the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land

00:30:29.340 | as they are in weeping about it.

00:30:31.220 | I never hear about the multiple times

00:30:34.620 | that Arabs rejected partition, rejected living with Jews,

00:30:39.380 | rejected any sort of state that would have even had

00:30:42.440 | any sort of Jewish exclusivity.

00:30:43.860 | It's funny because it was brought up before

00:30:45.700 | that the partition plan was unfair,

00:30:48.140 | and that's why the Arabs rejected it,

00:30:49.620 | as though they rejected it because it was unfair,

00:30:51.820 | because of the amount of land that Jews were given,

00:30:53.340 | and not just due to the fact that Jews were given land

00:30:55.460 | at all, as though a 30% partition or a 25% partition

00:30:59.360 | would have been accepted when I don't think

00:31:01.020 | that was the reality of the circumstances.

00:31:03.380 | I feel like most of the other stuff has been said,

00:31:04.900 | but I noticed that whenever people talk about '48

00:31:07.740 | or the years preceding '48, I think the worst thing

00:31:10.660 | that happens is there's a cherry picking of the facts

00:31:13.260 | where basically all of the blame is ascribed

00:31:15.420 | to this built-in idea of Zionism

00:31:18.900 | that because of a handful of quotes

00:31:20.380 | or because of an ideology, we can say that transfer

00:31:23.260 | or population expulsion or basically the mandate

00:31:26.780 | of all of these Arabs being kicked off the land

00:31:28.380 | was always going to happen when I think there's a refusal

00:31:30.960 | sometimes as well to acknowledge that regardless

00:31:33.180 | of the ideas of some of the Zionist leaders,

00:31:34.840 | there is a political, social, and military reality

00:31:37.460 | on the ground that they're forced to contend with.

00:31:39.380 | And unfortunately, the Arabs, because of their inability

00:31:42.960 | to engage in diplomacy and only to use tools of war

00:31:45.940 | to try to negotiate everything going on

00:31:47.460 | in mandatory Palestine, basically always gave the Jews

00:31:50.080 | a reason or an excuse to fight

00:31:52.060 | and acquire land through that way

00:31:53.740 | because of their refusal to negotiate on anything else,

00:31:55.780 | whether it was the partition plan in '47,

00:31:57.860 | whether it was the Lusanne Peace Conference afterwards

00:32:00.700 | where Israel even offered to annex Gaza in '51

00:32:03.700 | where they offered to take in 100,000 refugees.

00:32:05.940 | Every single deal is just rejected out of hand

00:32:08.780 | because the Arabs don't want a Jewish state

00:32:10.300 | anywhere in this region of the world.

00:32:12.060 | - I would like to engage Professor Morris.

00:32:14.780 | If you don't mind, I'm not with the first name.

00:32:16.660 | It's just not my way of relating.

00:32:19.540 | - You can just call me Morris.

00:32:20.760 | You don't need the professor.

00:32:21.680 | - Okay.

00:32:22.520 | (laughing)

00:32:23.700 | There's a real problem here.

00:32:25.820 | And it's been the problem I've had over many years

00:32:29.320 | of reading your work, apart perhaps from as grandchild,

00:32:33.700 | I suspect nobody knows your work better than I do.

00:32:37.120 | I've read it many times, not once, not twice,

00:32:40.280 | at least three times, everything you've written.

00:32:42.680 | And the problem is it's a kind of quicksilver.

00:32:47.740 | It's very hard to grasp a point and hold you to it.

00:32:52.740 | So we're gonna try here to see

00:32:58.380 | whether we can hold you to a point.

00:33:00.340 | And then you argue with me the point.

00:33:02.520 | I have no problem with that.

00:33:03.920 | Your name, please?

00:33:08.700 | - Stephen Bunnell.

00:33:09.680 | - Okay.

00:33:10.520 | Mr. Bunnell referred to cherry picking

00:33:13.720 | and handful of quotes.

00:33:16.480 | Now, it's true that when you wrote your first book

00:33:21.480 | on the Palestinian refugee question,

00:33:24.420 | you only had a few lines on this issue of transfer.

00:33:28.840 | - Four pages.

00:33:30.320 | - In the first book.

00:33:31.160 | - In the first book, four pages.

00:33:32.000 | - Maybe four, I'm not gonna quarrel.

00:33:34.120 | My memory is not clear.

00:33:35.680 | We're talking about 40 years ago.

00:33:37.240 | I read it, I read it, but then I read other things by you.

00:33:39.960 | Okay.

00:33:41.080 | And you were taken to task, if my memory is correct,

00:33:45.080 | that you hadn't adequately documented

00:33:49.320 | the claims of transfer.

00:33:51.720 | Allow me to finish.

00:33:53.480 | And I thought that was a reasonable challenge

00:33:56.640 | because it was an unusual claim

00:33:59.460 | for a mainstream Israeli historian to say,

00:34:02.960 | as you did in that first book,

00:34:05.240 | that from the very beginning,

00:34:08.080 | transfer figured prominently in Zionist thinking.

00:34:12.480 | That was an unusual, if you read Anita Shapira,

00:34:15.840 | you read Shabtai Tevitt,

00:34:17.680 | that was an unusual acknowledgement by you.

00:34:20.880 | And then I found it very impressive

00:34:25.880 | that in that revised version of your first book,

00:34:31.960 | you devoted 25 pages

00:34:35.800 | to copiously documenting

00:34:40.400 | the salience of transfer

00:34:44.360 | in Zionist thinking.

00:34:47.700 | And in fact, you used a very provocative

00:34:52.700 | and resonant phrase.

00:34:55.400 | You said that transfer was inevitable

00:35:00.400 | and inbuilt into Zionism.

00:35:06.680 | We're not talking about circumstantial factors,

00:35:10.400 | a war, Arab hostility.

00:35:14.000 | You said it's inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism.

00:35:19.000 | Now, as I said, so we won't be accused of cherry picking,

00:35:26.640 | those were 25 very densely argued pages.

00:35:35.820 | And then in an interview,

00:35:38.200 | and I could cite several quotes, but I'll choose one.

00:35:42.820 | You said, "Removing a population was needed."

00:35:47.820 | Let's look at the words.

00:35:51.100 | "Without a population expulsion,

00:35:55.160 | "a Jewish state would not have been established."

00:36:01.760 | Now, you're the one, again,

00:36:05.520 | I was very surprised when I read your book.

00:36:09.460 | Here I'm referring to Righteous Victims.

00:36:12.500 | I was very surprised when I came to that page 37,

00:36:16.960 | where you wrote that territorial displacement

00:36:22.820 | and dispossession was the chief motor

00:36:27.980 | of Arab resistance to Zionism.

00:36:31.240 | Territorial displacement and dispossession

00:36:35.100 | were the chief motor of Arab resistance to Zionism.

00:36:39.900 | So you then went on to say,

00:36:43.560 | "Because the Arab population rationally feared

00:36:48.560 | "territorial displacement and dispossession,

00:36:53.280 | "it of course opposed Zionism."

00:36:56.800 | That's as normal as Native Americans

00:37:00.620 | opposing the Euro-American manifest destiny

00:37:05.100 | in the history of our own country,

00:37:07.220 | because they understood it would be at their expense.

00:37:12.060 | It was inbuilt and inevitable.

00:37:16.140 | And so now for you to come along and say

00:37:20.260 | that it all happened just because of the war,

00:37:23.420 | that otherwise the Zionists made all these plans

00:37:28.900 | for a happy minority to live there,

00:37:32.280 | that simply does not gel.

00:37:35.300 | It does not cohere.

00:37:37.340 | It is not reconcilable

00:37:39.860 | with what you yourself have written.

00:37:42.660 | It was inevitable and inbuilt.

00:37:45.660 | Now, in other situations you've said that's true,

00:37:50.580 | but I think it was a greater good

00:37:53.780 | to establish a Jewish state

00:37:56.460 | at the expense of the indigenous population.

00:38:00.060 | That's another kind of argument.

00:38:01.660 | That was Theodore Roosevelt's argument in our own country.

00:38:05.060 | He said, "We don't want the whole of North America

00:38:08.460 | "to remain a squalid refuge for these wigwams and teepees.

00:38:13.460 | "We have to get rid of them and make this a great country."

00:38:17.900 | But he didn't deny that it was inbuilt and inevitable.

00:38:25.140 | - I think you've made your point.

00:38:27.140 | First, I'll take up something that Muin said.

00:38:29.820 | He said that the Nakba was inevitable.

00:38:33.100 | - As have you. - And predictable.

00:38:34.660 | No, no, no, I've never said that.

00:38:36.700 | It was inevitable and predictable

00:38:39.140 | only because the Arabs assaulted the Jewish community

00:38:42.860 | and state in 1947, '48.

00:38:45.820 | Had there been no assault,

00:38:47.300 | there probably wouldn't have been a refugee problem.

00:38:49.660 | There's no reason for a refugee problem to have occurred,

00:38:52.700 | expulsions to have occurred,

00:38:54.420 | a dispossession, massive dispossession to occur.

00:38:57.500 | These occurred as a result of war.

00:38:59.780 | Now, Norman has said that,

00:39:02.140 | I said that transfer was inbuilt into Zionism

00:39:06.420 | in one way or another.

00:39:07.780 | And this is certainly true.

00:39:09.260 | In order to buy land,

00:39:11.020 | they had the Jews bought tracts of land

00:39:14.300 | on which some Arabs sometimes lived.

00:39:16.740 | Sometimes they bought tracts of land

00:39:18.460 | on which there weren't Arab villages,

00:39:20.060 | but sometimes they bought land on which there were Arabs.

00:39:22.900 | And according to Ottoman law and the British,

00:39:25.300 | at least in the initial years of the British mandate,

00:39:29.980 | the law said that the people who bought the land

00:39:33.100 | could do what they liked

00:39:34.140 | with the people who didn't own the land,

00:39:35.900 | who were basically squatting on the land,

00:39:38.020 | which is the Arab tenant farmers,

00:39:39.780 | which is, we're talking about a very small number, actually,

00:39:41.980 | of Arabs who were displaced

00:39:43.620 | as a result of land purchases

00:39:45.780 | in the Ottoman period or the mandate period.

00:39:48.820 | But there was dispossession in one way.

00:39:50.980 | They didn't possess the land, they didn't own it,

00:39:53.300 | but they were removed from the land.

00:39:54.940 | And this did happen in Zionism.

00:39:56.740 | And there's, if you like,

00:39:59.140 | an inevitability in Zionist ideology

00:40:02.860 | of buying tracts of land

00:40:04.700 | and starting to work it yourself

00:40:06.580 | and settle it with your own people and so on.

00:40:09.020 | That made sense.

00:40:10.060 | But what we're really talking about

00:40:11.660 | is what happened in 47, 48.

00:40:14.020 | And in 47, 48, the Arabs started a war.

00:40:18.020 | And actually, people pay for their mistakes.

00:40:20.660 | And the Palestinians have never actually agreed

00:40:23.340 | to pay for their mistakes.

00:40:24.540 | They make mistakes.

00:40:25.700 | They attack.

00:40:26.620 | They suffer as a result.

00:40:27.820 | And we see something similar going on today

00:40:30.180 | in the Gaza Strip.

00:40:31.860 | They do something terrible.

00:40:33.020 | They kill 1,200 Jews.

00:40:34.740 | They abduct 250 women and children and babies

00:40:37.980 | and old people and whatever.

00:40:40.180 | And then they start screaming,

00:40:41.820 | "Please save us from what we did

00:40:44.020 | "because the Jews are counterattacking."

00:40:46.540 | And this is what happened then.

00:40:47.900 | And this is what's happening now.

00:40:50.220 | There's something fairly similar in the situation here.

00:40:53.180 | Expulsion, and this is important.

00:40:55.340 | Norman, you should pay attention to this.

00:40:56.980 | You didn't raise that.

00:40:58.260 | Expulsion, transfer were never policy

00:41:01.300 | of the Zionist movement before 47.

00:41:03.980 | It doesn't exist in Zionist platforms

00:41:07.540 | of the various political parties,

00:41:09.500 | of the Zionist organization,

00:41:11.700 | of the Israeli state, of the Jewish agency.

00:41:14.420 | Nobody would have actually made it into policy

00:41:17.220 | because it was always a large minority.

00:41:19.020 | If there were people who wanted it,

00:41:20.540 | always a large minority of Jewish politicians and leaders

00:41:23.980 | would have said, "No, this is immoral.

00:41:25.780 | "We cannot start a state on the basis of an expulsion."

00:41:29.780 | So it was never adopted,

00:41:30.900 | and actually was never adopted as policy even in 48,

00:41:34.220 | even though Ben-Gurion wanted as few Arabs

00:41:36.700 | in the course of the war staying in the Jewish state

00:41:39.460 | after they attacked it.

00:41:40.700 | He didn't want disloyal citizens staying there

00:41:43.460 | 'cause they wouldn't have been loyal citizens.

00:41:45.540 | But this made sense in the war itself.

00:41:48.660 | But the movement itself and its political parties

00:41:51.940 | never accepted it.

00:41:53.340 | It's true that in 1937,

00:41:55.700 | when the British as part of the proposal

00:41:58.500 | by the Peel Commission to divide the country

00:42:02.460 | into two states, one Arab, one Jewish,

00:42:04.540 | which the Arabs of course rejected,

00:42:06.820 | Peel also recommended that the Arabs,

00:42:09.500 | most of the Arabs in the Jewish state to be

00:42:12.660 | should be transferred

00:42:14.260 | because otherwise if they stayed

00:42:15.820 | and were disloyal to the emergent Jewish state,

00:42:18.860 | this would cause endless disturbances,

00:42:21.380 | warfare, killing, and so on.

00:42:23.340 | So Ben-Gurion and Weizmann latched onto this proposal

00:42:27.820 | by the most famous democracy in the world,

00:42:31.660 | the British democracy,

00:42:33.220 | when they proposed the idea of transfer

00:42:35.900 | side by side with the idea of partition

00:42:37.940 | 'cause it made sense.

00:42:39.100 | And they said, "Well, if the British say so,

00:42:42.100 | "we should also advocate it."

00:42:43.820 | But they never actually tried to pass it

00:42:45.940 | as Zionist policy.

00:42:47.700 | And they fairly quickly stopped even talking about transfer

00:42:51.060 | after 1938.

00:42:52.260 | - So just to clarify,

00:42:53.860 | what you're saying is that '47 was an offensive war,

00:42:58.860 | not a defensive war.

00:43:01.380 | - By the Arabs, yes.

00:43:02.300 | - By the Arabs?

00:43:03.140 | - Yeah.

00:43:03.980 | - And you're also saying that there was never

00:43:05.620 | a top-down policy of expulsion.

00:43:09.540 | - Yes.

00:43:10.380 | - Just to clarify the point.

00:43:11.460 | - If I understood you correctly,

00:43:13.740 | you're making the claim that transfer, expulsion,

00:43:20.180 | and so on was, in fact, a very localized phenomenon

00:43:24.820 | resulting from individual land purchases.

00:43:28.580 | And that, if I understand you correctly,

00:43:32.420 | you're also making the claim that the idea

00:43:36.980 | that a Jewish state requires a removal

00:43:41.980 | or overwhelming reduction of the non-Jewish population was--

00:43:48.220 | - If the Arabs are attacking you, yes.

00:43:51.380 | - But let's say prior to 1947,

00:43:54.940 | it would be your claim that the idea

00:43:59.620 | that a significant reduction or wholesale removal

00:44:04.140 | of the Arab population was not part of Zionist thinking.

00:44:07.900 | Well, I think there's two problems with that.

00:44:11.260 | I think what you're saying about localized disputes

00:44:15.700 | is correct, but I also think that there is a whole literature

00:44:20.700 | that demonstrates that transfer was envisioned

00:44:28.140 | by Zionist leaders on a much broader scale

00:44:32.540 | than simply individual land purchases.

00:44:35.300 | In other words, it went way beyond,

00:44:38.060 | we need to remove these tenants

00:44:39.740 | so that we can farm this land.

00:44:41.820 | The idea was we can't have a state

00:44:45.020 | where all these Arabs remain,

00:44:46.820 | and we have to get rid of them.

00:44:48.220 | And the second, I think, impediment to that view

00:44:52.300 | is that long before the UN General Assembly convened

00:44:56.960 | to address the question of Palestine,

00:44:59.340 | Palestinian and Arab, and other leaders as well,

00:45:03.620 | had been warning ad infinitum

00:45:06.620 | that the purpose of the Zionist movement

00:45:08.860 | is not just to establish a Jewish state,

00:45:11.460 | but to establish an exclusivist Jewish state,

00:45:15.740 | and that transfer, forced displacement,

00:45:19.300 | was fundamental to that project.

00:45:25.620 | And just responding to, sorry, was it?

00:45:29.140 | - Yeah, Stephen.

00:45:30.300 | - Bonnell or Donnell? - Or Bonnell, yeah.

00:45:31.900 | - With a B. - Yeah.

00:45:32.980 | - Yeah.

00:45:33.820 | You made the point that the problem here

00:45:39.660 | is that people don't recognize

00:45:42.180 | is that the first and last result for the Arabs

00:45:45.240 | is always war.

00:45:46.940 | I think there's a problem with that.

00:45:48.380 | I think you might do well to recall

00:45:51.860 | the 1936 general strike conducted by Palestinians

00:45:58.020 | at the beginning of the revolt,

00:45:59.380 | which at the time was the longest recorded

00:46:03.060 | general strike in history.

00:46:04.740 | You may want to consult the book published last year

00:46:10.020 | by Laurie Allen, A History of False Hope,

00:46:13.040 | which discusses in great detail

00:46:16.020 | the consistent engagement by Palestinians,

00:46:19.740 | their leaders, their elites, their diplomats, and so on,

00:46:22.780 | with all these international committees.

00:46:25.580 | If we look at today, the Palestinians are once again

00:46:29.620 | going to the International Court of Justice.

00:46:32.240 | They're consistently trying to persuade

00:46:37.940 | the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court

00:46:40.740 | to do his job.

00:46:43.260 | They have launched widespread boycott campaigns.

00:46:46.500 | So, of course, the Palestinians

00:46:48.980 | have engaged in military resistance.

00:46:53.180 | But I think the suggestion that this has always been

00:46:56.140 | their first and last resort,

00:46:57.980 | and that they have somehow spurned civic action,

00:47:01.980 | spurned diplomacy, I think really has no basis in reality.

00:47:06.980 | - I'll respond to that, and then a question for Norm

00:47:09.220 | to take into account, I think, when he answers Benny,

00:47:10.760 | 'cause I am curious.

00:47:11.600 | Obviously, I have fresher eyes on this,

00:47:14.060 | and I'm a newcomer to this arena

00:47:15.780 | versus the three of you guys, for sure.

00:47:18.260 | A claim that gets brought up a lot

00:47:19.860 | has to do with the inevitability of transfer in Zionism,

00:47:23.260 | or the idea that as soon as the Jews

00:47:25.660 | envisioned a state in Palestine,

00:47:27.360 | they knew that it would involve

00:47:28.860 | some mass transfer of population,

00:47:30.980 | perhaps a mass expulsion.

00:47:32.980 | I'm sure we'll talk about Plan Dalit

00:47:34.220 | or Plan D at some point.

00:47:36.100 | The issue that I run into is,

00:47:38.380 | while you can find quotes from leaders,

00:47:39.980 | while you can find maybe desires expressed in diaries,

00:47:42.980 | I feel like it's hard to truly ever know

00:47:45.220 | if there would have been mass transfer

00:47:47.680 | in the face of Arab peace,

00:47:49.140 | because I feel like every time

00:47:50.460 | there was a huge deal on the table

00:47:52.360 | that would have had a sizable Jewish

00:47:54.060 | and Arab population living together,

00:47:56.440 | the Arabs would reject it out of hand.

00:47:58.580 | So, for instance, when we say that transfer was inevitable,

00:48:00.620 | when we say that Zionists would have never accepted

00:48:03.500 | a sizable Arab population,

00:48:05.060 | how do you explain the acceptance of the '47 Partition Plan

00:48:08.040 | that would have had a huge Arab population

00:48:10.080 | living in the Jewish state?

00:48:11.460 | Is your contention that after the acceptance of that,

00:48:13.860 | after the establishment of that state,

00:48:15.300 | that Jews would have slowly started to expel

00:48:17.460 | all of these Arab citizens from their country?

00:48:20.220 | Or how do you explain that in Lusan, a couple years later,

00:48:22.980 | that Israel was willing to formally annex the Gaza Strip

00:48:26.340 | and make 200,000 or so people those citizens?

00:48:30.060 | But I'm just curious, how do we get this idea

00:48:32.960 | of Zionism always means mass transfer

00:48:36.420 | when there were times, at least early on

00:48:38.540 | in the history of Israel and a little bit before it,

00:48:40.780 | where Israel would have accepted a state

00:48:42.980 | that would have had a massive Arab population in it?

00:48:45.200 | Is your, yeah, is your idea

00:48:46.440 | that they would have just slowly expelled them afterwards,

00:48:48.220 | or?

00:48:49.060 | - Is that a question to me or Norm?

00:48:50.460 | - Either one, I'm just curious

00:48:51.300 | for the incorporation of the answer, yeah.

00:48:53.660 | - There's some misunderstandings here.

00:48:56.740 | So let's try to clarify that.

00:48:58.540 | Number one, it was the old historians

00:49:03.940 | who would point to the fact,

00:49:06.020 | in Professor Morris's terminology,

00:49:08.460 | the old historians, what he called not real historians,

00:49:11.580 | he called them chroniclers, not real historians.

00:49:14.920 | It was the old Israeli historians

00:49:17.900 | who denied the centrality of transfer in Zionist thinking.

00:49:22.900 | It was then Professor Morris,

00:49:28.720 | who, contrary to Israel's historian establishment,

00:49:34.740 | who said, now you remind me it's four pages,

00:49:38.660 | but it came at the end of the book, it was--

00:49:40.380 | - No, no, it's at the beginning of the book.

00:49:42.140 | - Transfer.

00:49:42.980 | - Transfer is dealt with in four pages at the beginning

00:49:46.280 | of my first book on the Palestinian refugee problem.

00:49:49.080 | - It's a fault of my memory, but the point still stands.

00:49:51.560 | It was Professor Morris who introduced this idea

00:49:55.440 | in what you might call a big way.

00:49:57.360 | - Yeah, but I didn't say it was central to the Zionist--

00:49:59.920 | - Okay, allow me, okay, allow me--

00:50:03.480 | - You're saying centrality.

00:50:04.920 | I never said it was centrality, I said it was their idea.

00:50:07.960 | - By the way, it's okay to respond back and forth,

00:50:09.920 | this is great.

00:50:10.760 | And also, just a quick question, if I may.

00:50:13.460 | You're using quotes from Benny, from Professor Morris.

00:50:17.980 | It's also okay to say those quotes do not reflect

00:50:20.500 | the full context of the--

00:50:21.340 | - That would be fine.

00:50:22.180 | - So if we go back to quotes we've said in the past,

00:50:26.540 | and you both here have written,

00:50:28.660 | the three of you have written on this topic a lot,

00:50:31.580 | is we should be careful and just admit like,

00:50:34.140 | well, yeah, well, that's--

00:50:34.980 | - Just real quick, just to be clear,

00:50:36.580 | the contention is that Norm is quoting a part

00:50:39.020 | and saying that this was the entire reason

00:50:40.660 | for this, whereas Benny's saying it's a part of the--

00:50:42.480 | - I'm not quoting a part.

00:50:44.160 | I'm quoting 25 pages where Professor Morris

00:50:51.180 | was at great pains to document the claim

00:50:56.280 | that appeared in those early four pages of his book.

00:51:01.280 | Now, you say it never became part

00:51:06.280 | of the official Zionist platform.

00:51:10.000 | - Never became part of policy.

00:51:12.220 | - Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, okay.

00:51:15.060 | We're also asked, well, if this is true,

00:51:17.000 | why did that happen, why did that happen?

00:51:19.760 | It's because, it's a very simple fact

00:51:22.040 | which everybody understands.

00:51:24.680 | Ideology doesn't operate in a vacuum.

00:51:27.940 | There are real world practical problems.

00:51:32.120 | You can't just take an ideology and superimpose it

00:51:36.860 | on a political reality and turn it into a fact.

00:51:41.400 | It was the British mandate.

00:51:43.660 | There was significant Arab resistance to Zionism

00:51:50.060 | and that resistance was based on the fact, as you said,

00:51:56.140 | the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession.

00:52:00.780 | So you couldn't very well expect the Zionist movement

00:52:05.020 | to come out in neon lights and announce,

00:52:08.420 | "Hey, we're going to be expelling you

00:52:11.460 | "the first chance we get."

00:52:13.780 | That's not realistic.

00:52:15.360 | Now, okay. - Let me respond.

00:52:17.100 | Look, you've said it a number of times

00:52:19.300 | that the Arabs, from fairly early on in the conflict

00:52:24.300 | from the 1890s or the early 1900s said,

00:52:29.420 | "The Jews intend to expel us."

00:52:31.320 | This doesn't mean that it's true.

00:52:32.860 | It means that some Arabs said this,

00:52:35.320 | maybe believing it was true,

00:52:36.700 | maybe using it as a political instrument

00:52:38.740 | to gain support to mobilize Arabs

00:52:41.180 | against the Zionist experiment.

00:52:43.060 | But the fact is transfer did not occur before 1947.

00:52:47.700 | And Arabs later said, and since then,

00:52:52.540 | have said that the Jews want to build a third temple

00:52:55.080 | on the Temple Mount, as if that's what really

00:52:58.580 | the mainstream of Zionism has always wanted

00:53:01.580 | and always strived for.

00:53:03.020 | But this is nonsense.

00:53:03.940 | It's something that Husseini used to use

00:53:06.100 | as a way to mobilize masses for the cause,

00:53:10.260 | using religion as the way to get them to join him.

00:53:14.780 | The fact that Arabs said that the Zionists

00:53:19.420 | wanted to dispossess us doesn't mean it's true.

00:53:21.820 | It just means that some Arabs thought that,

00:53:24.580 | maybe said it sincerely and maybe insincerely.

00:53:28.140 | - Professor Morris.

00:53:29.620 | - Later, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:53:32.020 | This is true, because the Arabs attacked the Jews.

00:53:34.420 | - Professor Morris, I read through your stuff.

00:53:37.540 | Even yesterday, I was looking through "Righteous Victim."

00:53:40.940 | - You should read other things, you're wasting your time.

00:53:42.900 | - No, no, actually, no.

00:53:45.580 | I do read other things, but I don't consider it

00:53:47.540 | a waste of time to read you, not at all.

00:53:49.760 | You say that this wasn't inherent

00:53:58.140 | in Zionism.

00:53:59.660 | Now, would you agree that David Ben-Gurion was a Zionist?

00:54:04.140 | - A major Zionist leader.

00:54:06.180 | - Would you agree Chaim Weizmann was a Zionist?

00:54:09.460 | - Yeah. - Okay.

00:54:10.620 | I believe they were.

00:54:12.080 | I believe they took their ideology seriously.

00:54:14.940 | It was the first generation.

00:54:17.380 | Just like with the Bolsheviks,

00:54:18.860 | the first generation was committed to an idea.

00:54:21.860 | By the 1930s, it was just pure Realpolitik.

00:54:25.740 | The ideology went out the window.

00:54:28.220 | The first generation, I have no doubt

00:54:30.460 | about their convictions, okay?

00:54:32.740 | They were Zionists.

00:54:34.040 | Transfer was inevitable and inbuilt in Zionism.

00:54:39.580 | - You keep repeating the same thing.

00:54:40.620 | - Yeah, because I have, as I said then, Mr. Morris,

00:54:44.500 | I have a problem reconciling what you're saying.

00:54:48.380 | It either was incidental or it was deeply entrenched.

00:54:54.940 | Here, I read it's deeply entrenched.

00:54:58.460 | Two very resonant words, inevitable and inbuilt.

00:55:03.460 | - Deeply entrenched, I never wrote that.

00:55:05.380 | - Well, I'm not sure.

00:55:06.340 | - It's something you just invented.

00:55:07.620 | - Okay, inevitable and inbuilt.

00:55:11.140 | - The idea, let me concede something.

00:55:14.540 | The idea of transfer was there.

00:55:17.340 | Israel Zangvil, a British Zionist,

00:55:20.380 | talked about it early on in the century.

00:55:22.740 | Even Herzl, in some way,

00:55:24.780 | talked about transferring population.

00:55:27.060 | - According to your 25 pages, everybody talked about it.

00:55:30.460 | - We keep bringing up this line

00:55:32.420 | in the 25 pages and the four pages.

00:55:34.220 | We're lucky to have Benny in front of us right now.

00:55:38.860 | We don't need to go to the quotes.

00:55:41.380 | We can legitimately ask how central is expulsion to Zionism

00:55:46.380 | in its early version of Zionism

00:55:50.560 | and whatever Zionism is today,

00:55:53.380 | and how much power, influence does Zionism and ideology

00:55:58.380 | have in Israel and influence the philosophy,

00:56:03.060 | the ideology of Zionism have on Israel today.

00:56:06.540 | - The Zionist movement up to 1948,

00:56:09.660 | Zionist ideology was central

00:56:11.860 | to the whole Zionist experience,

00:56:14.420 | the whole enterprise up to 1948.

00:56:17.340 | And I think Zionist ideology was also important

00:56:20.500 | in the first decades of Israel's existence.

00:56:25.500 | Slowly, the hold of Zionism,

00:56:29.300 | like, if you like, like Bolshevism,

00:56:31.940 | held the Soviet Union, gradually faded.

00:56:35.140 | And a lot of Israelis today think

00:56:36.760 | in terms of individual success and then the capitalism

00:56:40.860 | and all sorts of things

00:56:42.220 | which are nothing to do with the Zionism.

00:56:43.940 | But Zionism was very important.

00:56:45.900 | But what I'm saying is that the idea of transfer

00:56:48.920 | wasn't the core of Zionism.

00:56:50.820 | The idea of Zionism was to save the Jews

00:56:53.620 | who had been vastly persecuted in Eastern Europe

00:56:57.960 | and incidentally in the Arab world,

00:57:00.220 | the Muslim world for centuries,

00:57:03.180 | and eventually ending up with the Holocaust.

00:57:05.540 | The idea of Zionism was to save the Jewish people

00:57:08.140 | by establishing a state or reestablishing a Jewish state

00:57:11.940 | on the ancient Jewish homeland,

00:57:14.280 | which is something the Arabs today even deny

00:57:16.700 | that there were Jews in Palestine or the land of Israel.

00:57:19.700 | 2,000 years ago, Arafat famously said,

00:57:22.800 | "What temple was there on Temple Mount?"

00:57:24.760 | Maybe it was in Nablus, which of course is nonsense.

00:57:27.760 | But they had a strong connection

00:57:31.200 | for thousands of years to the land

00:57:33.080 | to which they wanted to return and returned there.

00:57:35.480 | They found that on the land

00:57:37.600 | lived hundreds of thousands of Arabs.

00:57:39.560 | And the question was how to accommodate

00:57:41.800 | the vision of a Jewish state in Palestine

00:57:44.320 | alongside the existence of these Arab masses

00:57:48.700 | living on, who were indigenous in fact,

00:57:50.820 | to the land by that stage.

00:57:53.340 | And the idea of partition,

00:57:55.780 | because they couldn't live together

00:57:57.140 | because the Arabs didn't want to live together

00:57:59.260 | with the Jews.

00:58:00.100 | And I think the Jews also didn't want to live together

00:58:02.540 | in one state with Arabs in general.

00:58:04.820 | The idea of partition was the thing

00:58:06.980 | which the Zionists accepted.

00:58:09.620 | Okay, we can only get a small part of Palestine.

00:58:12.900 | The Arabs will get in '37, most of Palestine.

00:58:16.260 | In 1947, the ratios were changed,

00:58:19.420 | but we can live side by side with each other

00:58:23.440 | in a partitioned Palestine.

00:58:24.940 | And this was the essence of it.

00:58:26.660 | The idea of transfer was there,

00:58:29.300 | but it was never adopted as policy.

00:58:32.060 | But in 1947, '48, the Arabs attacked

00:58:35.140 | trying to destroy essentially the Jewish,

00:58:37.620 | the Zionist enterprise and the emerging Jewish state.

00:58:40.540 | And the reaction was a transfer in some way.

00:58:45.420 | Not as policy, but this is what happened on the battlefield.

00:58:48.500 | And this is also what Ben-Gurion at some point

00:58:51.320 | began to want as well.

00:58:53.520 | - Well, one of the first books on this issue I read

00:58:58.520 | when I was still in high school,

00:59:01.180 | because my late father had it,

00:59:03.840 | was the diaries of Theodor Herzl.

00:59:06.540 | And I think Theodor Herzl, of course,

00:59:10.000 | was the founder of the contemporary Zionist movement.

00:59:14.800 | And I think if you read that, it's very clear.

00:59:17.640 | For Herzl, the model upon which the Zionist movement

00:59:22.460 | would proceed, his model was Cecil Rhodes.

00:59:26.720 | I think Rhodes, from what I recall,

00:59:30.740 | correct me if I'm wrong,

00:59:32.000 | has quite a prominent place in Herzl's diaries.

00:59:35.640 | I think Herzl was also corresponding with him

00:59:39.320 | and seeking his support.

00:59:40.880 | Cecil Rhodes, of course, was the British colonialist

00:59:45.880 | after whom the former white minority regime

00:59:50.820 | in Rhodesia was named.

00:59:54.280 | And Herzl also says explicitly in his diaries

00:59:59.000 | that it is essential to remove the existing population

01:00:05.000 | from Palestine.

01:00:06.560 | - Can I respond to this?

01:00:08.000 | - In a moment, please.

01:00:08.840 | He says we shall have to spirit the penniless population

01:00:11.680 | across the borders and procure employment

01:00:14.200 | for them elsewhere or something.

01:00:15.760 | And Israel Zangwill, who you mentioned,

01:00:18.040 | a land without a people for a people without a land.

01:00:20.960 | They knew damn well it wasn't a people,

01:00:23.120 | a land without a people.

01:00:25.240 | I'll continue, but please, go ahead.

01:00:27.240 | - Just to this, there is one small diary entry

01:00:31.120 | in Herzl's vast-- - It's five volumes.

01:00:34.560 | - Yeah, five volumes, there's one paragraph

01:00:36.920 | which actually mentions the idea of transfer.

01:00:39.320 | There are people who I think that Herzl

01:00:41.280 | was actually pointing to South America

01:00:43.520 | when he was talking about that.

01:00:44.720 | The Jews were going to move to Argentina

01:00:47.040 | and then they would try and buy out or buy off

01:00:50.720 | or spirit the penniless natives

01:00:53.960 | to make way for Jewish settlement.

01:00:56.720 | Maybe he wasn't even talking about the Arabs

01:00:58.800 | in that particular passage.

01:01:00.320 | That's the argument of some people.

01:01:01.960 | Maybe he was, but the point is it has only 1/100th of a,

01:01:06.960 | 1% of the diary which is devoted to this subject.

01:01:11.680 | It's not a central idea-- - Well, I'll defer.

01:01:14.440 | - In Herzl's thinking.

01:01:16.120 | What Herzl wanted, and this is what's important,

01:01:18.200 | not Rhodes, I don't think he was the model.

01:01:21.040 | Herzl wanted to create a liberal, democratic,

01:01:24.720 | Western state in Palestine for the Jews.

01:01:28.560 | That was the idea, not some imperial enterprise

01:01:32.640 | serving some imperial master, which is what Rhodes was about,

01:01:36.560 | but to have a Jewish state which was modeled

01:01:39.280 | on the Western democracies in Palestine.

01:01:42.000 | And this incidentally was more or less what Weizmann

01:01:44.920 | and Ben-Gurion, Ben-Gurion was more of a socialist,

01:01:48.600 | Weizmann was more of a liberal Westerner,

01:01:52.400 | but they wanted to establish a social democratic

01:01:54.960 | or liberal state in Palestine.

01:01:57.640 | And they both envisioned through most of the years

01:02:00.720 | of their activity that there would be an Arab minority

01:02:04.120 | in that Jewish state.

01:02:05.280 | It's true that Ben-Gurion strived to have as small

01:02:08.040 | as possible an Arab minority in the Jewish state

01:02:10.900 | because he knew that if you want a Jewish majority state,

01:02:14.880 | that would be necessary, but it's not something

01:02:17.120 | which they were willing to translate into actual policy.

01:02:21.080 | - Just a quick pause to mention that for people

01:02:23.200 | who are not familiar, Theodor Herzl we're talking about

01:02:25.780 | over a century ago, and everything we've been talking

01:02:28.440 | about has been mostly 1948 and before.

01:02:31.600 | - Yes, just one clarification on Herzl's diaries.

01:02:34.520 | I mean, the other thing that I recall from those diaries

01:02:36.720 | is he was very preoccupied with, in fact,

01:02:41.160 | getting great power patronage, seeing Palestine,

01:02:44.880 | the Jewish state in Palestine, I think his words,

01:02:48.200 | an outpost of civilization against barbarism.

01:02:51.740 | In other words, very much seeing his project

01:02:56.120 | as a proxy for Western imperialism in the Middle East.

01:02:59.560 | - No, no, I don't think that's the right word, not proxy.

01:03:01.280 | He wanted to establish a Jewish state

01:03:03.000 | which would be independent.

01:03:04.440 | To get that, he hoped that he would be able

01:03:06.560 | to garner support from major imperial powers.

01:03:10.760 | - Including the Ottoman Sultan, who he tried to cultivate.

01:03:14.540 | I just want to respond to a point you made earlier,

01:03:18.000 | which was that people expressed their rejection

01:03:22.660 | of the partition resolution on the grounds

01:03:26.580 | that it gave the majority of Palestine

01:03:29.180 | to the Jewish community, which formed only a third.

01:03:33.460 | Whereas, in fact, if I understood you correctly,

01:03:36.340 | you're saying the Palestinians and the Arabs

01:03:38.880 | would have rejected any partition resolution.

01:03:41.500 | - Yeah, a couple things.

01:03:43.140 | That one, they would have rejected any.

01:03:44.460 | Two, a lot of that land given was in the Negev.

01:03:47.060 | It was pretty terrible land at the time.

01:03:49.220 | And then three, the land that would have been partitioned

01:03:50.940 | to Jews, I think would have been,

01:03:53.660 | I think I saw it was like 500,000,

01:03:55.780 | it would have been 500,000 Jews, 400,000 Arabs,

01:03:57.900 | and I think like 80,000 Bedouin would have been there.

01:03:59.860 | So the state would have been divided pretty closely.

01:04:01.660 | - I think you raise a valid point.

01:04:04.100 | Because I think the Palestinians did reject

01:04:07.520 | the partition of their homeland, in principle.

01:04:11.020 | And I think the fact that the United Nations

01:04:14.700 | General Assembly then awarded the majority

01:04:18.460 | of their homeland to the Zionist movement

01:04:22.820 | only added insult to injury.

01:04:24.960 | I mean, one doesn't have to sympathize

01:04:28.700 | with the Palestinians to recognize

01:04:32.100 | that they have now been a stateless people for 75 years.

01:04:36.620 | Can you name any country, yours, for example,

01:04:41.180 | or yours, that would be prepared to give 55%,

01:04:45.340 | 25%, 10% of your country to the Palestinians?

01:04:50.340 | Of course not.

01:04:52.760 | And so the issue was not the existence of Jews in Palestine.

01:04:57.760 | They had been there for centuries.

01:05:00.140 | And of course they had ties to Palestine,

01:05:03.880 | and particularly to Jerusalem and other places,

01:05:06.820 | going back centuries, if not millennia.

01:05:10.620 | But the idea of establishing an exclusively Jewish state

01:05:15.260 | at the expense of those who are already living there,

01:05:19.980 | I think it was right to reject that.

01:05:23.140 | And I don't think we can look back now,

01:05:25.780 | 75 years later, and say, "Well, you should have accepted

01:05:29.980 | "losing 55% of your homeland because you ended up

01:05:32.820 | "losing 78% of it, and the remaining 22%

01:05:36.360 | "was occupied in 1967."

01:05:38.740 | That's not how things work.

01:05:41.940 | And I can imagine an American rejecting,

01:05:46.940 | giving 10% of the United States to the Palestinians,

01:05:51.580 | and if that rejection leads to war

01:05:54.260 | and you lose half your country,

01:05:56.180 | I doubt that 50 years from now you're going to say,

01:05:58.500 | "Well, maybe I should have accepted that."

01:06:00.900 | - Sure, so I like this answer more

01:06:04.100 | than what I usually feel like I'm hearing

01:06:06.020 | when it comes to the Palestinian rejection

01:06:07.900 | of the 47 Partition Plan.

01:06:09.540 | 'Cause sometimes I feel like a weird switch happens

01:06:11.660 | to where the Arabs in the area are actually presented

01:06:14.380 | as entirely pragmatic people who are simply doing

01:06:17.220 | a calculation and saying, "Well, we're losing 55%

01:06:20.140 | "of our land, Jews are only maybe 1/3 of the people here,

01:06:22.960 | "and we've got 45," and nah, the math doesn't work,

01:06:25.220 | basically, but it wasn't a math problem.

01:06:27.480 | I think, like you said--

01:06:28.320 | - It was a matter of principle.

01:06:29.300 | - It was an ideology problem.

01:06:30.340 | - No, it was a matter of principle.

01:06:31.340 | - Yeah, ideologically driven, that they, as a people,

01:06:35.940 | have a right to, or are entitled to, this land

01:06:38.240 | that they've never actually had an independent state on,

01:06:40.180 | that they've never had even a guarantee

01:06:41.580 | of an independent state on,

01:06:42.420 | that they've never actually ruled a government of their own.

01:06:43.940 | - That last point is actually not correct,

01:06:45.700 | because for all its injustice,

01:06:48.600 | the mandate system recognized Palestine

01:06:53.780 | as a Class A mandate, which provisionally recognized

01:06:57.860 | the independence of that territory.

01:07:00.820 | - Of what would emerge from that territory,

01:07:02.300 | but not of the Palestinians.

01:07:03.140 | - It was provisionally recognized.

01:07:06.020 | - But the territory itself was,

01:07:07.900 | but not of the Palestinian people to have a right

01:07:10.420 | or a guarantee to a government that would emerge from it.

01:07:11.260 | - Well, it was a British mandate of Palestine,

01:07:13.540 | not the British mandate of Israel.

01:07:15.220 | - The word exclusive, which you keep using, is nonsense.

01:07:18.300 | The state which Ben-Gurion envisioned

01:07:20.540 | would be a Jewish-majority state,

01:07:22.660 | as they accepted the 1947 partition resolution,

01:07:27.160 | as Stephen said, that included 400,000-plus Arabs

01:07:31.580 | in a state which would have 500,000 Jews.

01:07:34.260 | So the idea of exclusivity wasn't anywhere in the air at all

01:07:37.800 | among the Zionist leaders in '47, '48.

01:07:40.740 | They wanted a Jewish-majority state,

01:07:42.740 | but were willing to accept a state which had 40% Arabs.

01:07:46.180 | That's one point.

01:07:47.140 | The second thing is the Palestinians may have regarded

01:07:50.500 | the land of Palestine as their homeland,

01:07:53.480 | but so did the Jews.

01:07:54.700 | It was the homeland of the Jews as well.

01:07:56.780 | The problem was the Arabs were unable and remain,

01:07:59.620 | to this day, unable to recognize that for the Jews,

01:08:03.260 | that is their homeland as well.

01:08:04.900 | And the problem then is how do you share this homeland?

01:08:07.840 | Either with one binational state,

01:08:10.220 | or partitioned into two states.

01:08:13.340 | The problem is that the Arabs have always rejected

01:08:15.620 | both of these ideas.

01:08:17.220 | The homeland belongs to the Jews, as Jews feel,

01:08:20.340 | as much as it does, if not more, than for the Arabs.

01:08:23.820 | I would say for the Jews.

01:08:24.780 | It's the Jewish people's homeland.

01:08:26.460 | - Real quick, I just want, for both of you guys,

01:08:28.100 | 'cause I haven't heard these questions answered,

01:08:29.220 | I really want these questions to be,

01:08:30.700 | I'm just so curious how to make sense of them.

01:08:33.020 | It was correctly brought up that I believe

01:08:34.620 | that Ben-Gurion had, I think Shlomo Ben-Amin

01:08:38.100 | describes it as an obsession with getting validation

01:08:40.140 | or support from Western states.

01:08:42.380 | Great Britain, and then a couple decades later--

01:08:44.380 | - That explains the Suez War, the Suez Crisis.

01:08:46.180 | - Yeah, exactly, correct.

01:08:47.680 | That was one of the major motivators,

01:08:48.980 | the idea to work with Britain and France

01:08:50.960 | on a military operation against Arabs.

01:08:52.140 | - Imperial stooge.

01:08:53.220 | - But then the question, again, I go back to,

01:08:55.780 | if that is true, if Ben-Gurion,

01:08:57.700 | if the early Israel saw themselves

01:08:59.940 | as a Western-fashioned nation,

01:09:02.140 | how could we possibly imagine

01:09:03.660 | that they would have engaged in the transfer

01:09:05.140 | of some 400,000 Arabs after accepting the partition plan?

01:09:08.660 | Would that not have completely and totally destroyed

01:09:10.860 | their legitimacy in the eyes of the entire Western world?

01:09:12.860 | Would there not have been, how not?

01:09:14.800 | - Well, first of all, I think that

01:09:17.480 | the Zionist leadership's acceptance

01:09:20.460 | of the partition resolution,

01:09:22.940 | and I think you may have written about this,

01:09:26.760 | that they accepted it because it provided

01:09:29.660 | international endorsement of the legitimacy

01:09:34.220 | of the principle of Jewish statehood,

01:09:36.580 | and they didn't accept the borders,

01:09:39.100 | and in fact later expanded the borders.

01:09:42.500 | Second of all--

01:09:43.340 | - No, they didn't accept the borders.

01:09:44.300 | The borders were expanded at war.

01:09:45.580 | - They accepted the UN partition resolution,

01:09:48.180 | borders and all.

01:09:49.020 | That's how they accepted it.

01:09:50.420 | You can say that some of the Zionists,

01:09:52.320 | deep in their hearts, had the idea

01:09:54.620 | that maybe at some point--

01:09:55.460 | - Including their most--

01:09:56.760 | - They would be able to get more.

01:09:57.600 | - Including their most senior leaders who said so,

01:09:59.760 | and I think you've quoted them saying so.

01:10:01.320 | - But they grudgingly accepted what the United Nations,

01:10:03.800 | the world community, had said,

01:10:05.440 | this is what you're going to get.

01:10:06.600 | - And second of all, I mean, removing dark people,

01:10:10.360 | darker people, it's intrinsic.

01:10:13.360 | It's intrinsic.

01:10:14.200 | - In Israel, Jews are as dark as Arabs.

01:10:15.640 | - It's intrinsic to Western history,

01:10:17.720 | so the idea that Americans or Brits or the French

01:10:22.340 | would have an issue with, I mean,

01:10:24.640 | the French had been doing it in Algeria for decades.

01:10:27.200 | The Americans have been doing it

01:10:28.360 | in North America for centuries,

01:10:29.840 | so how would Israel forcibly displacing Palestinians

01:10:34.840 | somehow besmirch Israel in the eyes of the West?

01:10:40.700 | - In the 1944 resolution of the Labor Party,

01:10:45.080 | and at the time, even Bertrand Russell

01:10:47.680 | was a member of the Labor Party,

01:10:49.960 | it endorsed transfer of Arabs out of Palestine

01:10:53.980 | as Moines pointed out.

01:10:55.920 | That was a deeply entrenched idea in Western thinking

01:10:59.600 | that there was nothing, it doesn't in any way

01:11:02.760 | contradict or violate or breach any moral values

01:11:06.680 | to displace the Palestinian population.

01:11:10.600 | Now, I do believe there's a legitimate question.

01:11:14.500 | Had it been the case, as you said, Professor Morris,

01:11:20.200 | that the Zionists wanted to create a happy state

01:11:24.220 | with a Jewish majority, but a large Jewish minority,

01:11:29.220 | and if by virtue of immigration, like in our own country,

01:11:33.720 | in our own country, given the current trajectories,

01:11:37.780 | non-whites will become the majority population

01:11:40.660 | in the United States quite soon,

01:11:43.700 | and according to democratic principles,

01:11:45.780 | we have to accept that.

01:11:47.780 | So if that were the case,

01:11:50.620 | I would say maybe there's an argument

01:11:53.320 | that had there been mass Jewish immigration,

01:11:56.740 | change the demographic balance in Palestine,

01:12:00.500 | and therefore Jews became the majority,

01:12:05.500 | it can make an argument in the abstract

01:12:08.300 | that the indigenous Arab population

01:12:10.740 | should have been accepting of that,

01:12:12.980 | just as whites in the United States,

01:12:14.900 | quote-unquote whites, have to be accepting of the fact

01:12:18.260 | that the demographic majority is shifting

01:12:20.420 | to non-whites in our own country.

01:12:22.560 | But that's not what Zionism was about.

01:12:25.820 | I did write my doctoral dissertation on Zionism,

01:12:30.860 | and I don't want to get now bogged down in abstract ideas,

01:12:34.780 | but as I suspect you know, most theorists of nationalism

01:12:39.340 | say there are two kinds of nationalism.

01:12:41.860 | One is a nationalism based on citizenship.

01:12:45.860 | You become a citizen, you're integral to the country.

01:12:49.500 | That's sometimes called political nationalism.

01:12:52.540 | And then there's another kind of nationalism,

01:12:55.040 | and that says the state should not belong to its citizens,

01:13:00.040 | it should belong to an ethnic group.

01:13:04.100 | Each ethnic group should have its own state.

01:13:09.500 | It's usually called the German Romantic idea of nationalism.

01:13:14.020 | Zionism is squarely in the German Romantic idea.

01:13:19.020 | That was the whole point of Zionism.

01:13:24.700 | We don't want to be Bundists

01:13:27.100 | and be one more ethnic minority in Russia.

01:13:32.060 | We don't want to become citizens

01:13:34.460 | and just become a Jewish people in Russia.

01:13:39.460 | In England, or France, we want our own state.

01:13:44.460 | - Like the Arab 23 states.

01:13:49.700 | - No, wait, before we get to the Arabs,

01:13:51.660 | let's stick to the Jews for a moment, or the Zionists.

01:13:55.180 | We want our own state.

01:13:58.580 | And in that concept of wanting your own state,

01:14:05.180 | the minority, at best, lives on sufferance,

01:14:10.180 | and at worst, gets expelled.

01:14:15.500 | That's the logic of the German Romantic

01:14:19.420 | Zionist idea of a state.

01:14:22.440 | That's why they're Zionists.

01:14:25.700 | Now, I personally have shied away

01:14:29.860 | from using the word Zionism

01:14:31.740 | ever since I finished my doctoral dissertation.

01:14:35.300 | - Was that painful?

01:14:36.540 | - Because, as I said, I don't believe

01:14:39.780 | it's the operative ideology today.

01:14:43.700 | It's like talking about Bolshevism

01:14:45.900 | and referring to Khrushchev.

01:14:48.780 | I doubt Khrushchev could have spelled Bolshevik.

01:14:52.780 | But for the period we're talking about,

01:14:55.820 | they were Zionists.

01:14:59.980 | They were committed to their exclusive state

01:15:03.100 | with a minority living on sufferance,

01:15:08.100 | or, at worst, expelled.

01:15:11.080 | That was their ideology.

01:15:13.260 | And I really feel there's a problem

01:15:17.520 | with your happy vision of these Western Democrats

01:15:22.520 | like Weizmann, and they wanted to live

01:15:25.220 | peacefully with the Arabs.

01:15:27.220 | Weizmann described the expulsion in 1948

01:15:30.460 | as, quote, "the miraculous clearing of the land."

01:15:34.980 | That doesn't sound like somebody shedding

01:15:37.040 | too many tears at the loss of the indigenous population.

01:15:42.040 | - Let me just respond to the word

01:15:43.380 | of one of our respondents.

01:15:44.940 | - The unsufferance, I don't agree with.

01:15:46.580 | I think that's wrong.

01:15:47.740 | The Jewish state came into being in 1948.

01:15:50.940 | It had a population which was 20% Arab

01:15:53.780 | when it came into being, after Arab refugees,

01:15:57.060 | many of them had become refugees,

01:15:58.420 | but 20% remained in the country.

01:16:00.680 | 20% of Israel's population at inception in 1949 was Arab.

01:16:05.680 | - 80% went missing.

01:16:08.000 | - No, no, no, no.

01:16:09.140 | I was talking about what remained in Palestine, Israel,

01:16:11.980 | after it was created.

01:16:13.240 | The 20% who lived in Israel received citizenship

01:16:17.880 | and all the rights of Israelis,

01:16:20.220 | except, of course, the right to serve in the army,

01:16:22.220 | which they didn't want to.

01:16:24.140 | And they have Supreme Court justices.

01:16:26.900 | They have Knesset members.

01:16:28.400 | They enjoyed basically--

01:16:29.240 | - I think they lived under emergency laws until 1966.

01:16:32.660 | - For a period, sure.

01:16:33.500 | They lived under a--

01:16:34.340 | - So they didn't immediately have citizenship.

01:16:36.220 | - No, no, no, wait a second.

01:16:37.060 | At the beginning-- - This is just fantasy.

01:16:37.980 | - At the beginning, it's not fantasy.

01:16:39.260 | At the beginning, they received citizenship,

01:16:41.180 | could vote in elections for their own people,

01:16:43.600 | and they were put into parliament.

01:16:46.220 | But in the first years, the Israeli, the Jewish majority,

01:16:50.240 | suspected that maybe the Arabs would be disloyal

01:16:52.740 | 'cause they had just tried to destroy the Jewish state.

01:16:55.580 | Then they dropped the military government

01:16:57.900 | and they became fully equal citizens.

01:17:01.260 | So if the whole idea was they must have a state

01:17:03.880 | without Arabs, this didn't happen in '49.

01:17:07.780 | - Then why-- - And it didn't happen

01:17:08.920 | in the subsequent decades. - Then why did you say,

01:17:11.820 | Professor Morris? - Yes.

01:17:13.120 | - Then why did you say without a population expulsion,

01:17:17.940 | a Jewish state would not have been established?

01:17:21.300 | - Because you're missing the first section

01:17:23.620 | of that paragraph, which was they were being assaulted

01:17:27.180 | by the Arabs, and as a result,

01:17:29.700 | a Jewish state could not have come into being

01:17:31.780 | unless there had also been an expulsion of the population

01:17:34.820 | which was trying to kill the Arabs.

01:17:35.660 | - Norm, I'm officially forbidding you referencing that.

01:17:38.500 | Again, we've responded-- - I think--

01:17:39.980 | - Hold on a second, wait.

01:17:41.620 | We've responded to it, so the main point you're making,

01:17:44.540 | we'll have to take Benyetta's word,

01:17:46.220 | is there was a war,

01:17:50.020 | and that's the reason why he made that statement.

01:17:52.460 | I think just one last point on this.

01:17:54.980 | I remember reading your book when it first came out,

01:17:59.620 | and reading one incident after the other,

01:18:04.060 | and one example after the other,

01:18:05.700 | and then getting to the conclusion where you said

01:18:09.220 | the Nakba was a product of war, not design.

01:18:13.300 | I think we were, and I remember reacting almost

01:18:16.340 | in shock to that, that I felt you had mobilized

01:18:21.060 | overwhelming evidence that it was a product

01:18:23.420 | of design, not war, and I think our discussion today

01:18:28.020 | very much reflects, let's say, the dissonance

01:18:33.020 | between the evidence and the conclusion.

01:18:34.940 | You don't feel that the research

01:18:39.940 | that you have conducted and published

01:18:43.060 | demonstrates that it was in fact inherent

01:18:46.580 | and inbuilt and inevitable,

01:18:50.100 | and I think the point that Norm and I are making

01:18:53.260 | is that your own historical research,

01:18:56.220 | together with that of others,

01:18:57.740 | indisputably demonstrates that it does.

01:19:00.100 | I think that's a fundamental disagreement

01:19:01.900 | we're having here.

01:19:02.980 | - Can I, well, yeah, can I actually respond to that,

01:19:04.500 | 'cause this is actually, I think this is emblematic

01:19:07.220 | of the entire conversation.

01:19:09.260 | I watched a lot of Norm's interviews

01:19:11.500 | and conversations in preparation for this,

01:19:13.260 | and I hear Norm will say this over and over and over again.

01:19:16.140 | I only deal in facts.

01:19:17.100 | I don't deal in hypotheticals.

01:19:18.140 | I only deal in facts.

01:19:19.060 | I only deal in facts, and that seems to be the case,

01:19:21.700 | except for when the facts are completely

01:19:22.980 | and totally contrary to the particular point

01:19:24.860 | you're trying to push.

01:19:26.100 | The idea that Jews would have out of hand rejected

01:19:29.620 | any state that had Arabs on it

01:19:31.180 | or always had a plan of expulsion

01:19:32.500 | is just betrayed by the acceptance

01:19:34.020 | of the '47 partition plan.

01:19:34.860 | - I don't think you understand politics.

01:19:37.660 | Did I just say that there is a chasm

01:19:41.820 | that separates your ideology

01:19:45.260 | from the limits and constraints

01:19:47.700 | imposed by politics and reality?

01:19:52.700 | Now, Professor Morris, I suspect would agree

01:19:58.260 | that the Zionist movement from fairly early on

01:20:02.460 | was committed to the idea of a Jewish state.

01:20:06.780 | I am aware of only one major study

01:20:09.860 | probably written 40 years ago,

01:20:12.420 | the "Binational Idea in Mandatory Palestine"

01:20:16.180 | by a woman, I forgot her name now.

01:20:18.020 | You remember her.

01:20:19.700 | - I'm trying to.

01:20:20.540 | - Yeah, okay, but you know the book.

01:20:22.700 | - I think so.

01:20:23.540 | - Yeah, she is the only one who tried to persuasively argue

01:20:28.180 | that the Zionist movement was actually, not formally,

01:20:33.180 | actually committed to the binational idea.

01:20:37.340 | But most historians of the subject agree

01:20:41.860 | the Zionist movement was committed

01:20:43.580 | to the idea of a Jewish state.

01:20:46.260 | Having written my doctoral dissertation on the topic,

01:20:50.420 | I was confirmed in that idea because Professor Chomsky,

01:20:54.020 | who was my closest friend for about 40 years,

01:20:57.820 | was very committed to the idea

01:20:59.940 | that binationalism was the dominant trend in Zionism.

01:21:04.180 | I could not agree with, I couldn't go with him there.

01:21:07.220 | But Professor Morris, you are aware

01:21:10.700 | that until the Biltmore Resolution in 1942,

01:21:14.940 | the Zionist movement never declared

01:21:17.660 | it was for a Jewish state.

01:21:19.740 | Why?

01:21:20.580 | Because it was politically impossible

01:21:24.100 | at the moment until 1942.

01:21:27.540 | There is your ideology, there are your convictions,

01:21:30.900 | there are your operative plans,

01:21:32.780 | and there's also separately what you say in public.

01:21:38.100 | The Zionist movement couldn't say in public,

01:21:41.380 | "We're expelling all the Arabs."

01:21:43.260 | They can't say that.

01:21:44.860 | And they couldn't even say,

01:21:46.620 | "We support a Jewish state until 1942."

01:21:51.060 | - You're conflating two things.

01:21:53.340 | The Zionists wanted a Jewish state, correct?

01:21:56.700 | That didn't mean expulsion of the Arabs.

01:21:59.260 | It's not the same thing.

01:22:00.340 | They wanted a Jewish state with a Jewish majority,

01:22:02.860 | but they were willing, as it turned out,

01:22:04.540 | both in '37 and in '47, and subsequently,

01:22:08.780 | to have an Arab minority, a large Arab minority.

01:22:13.780 | They were willing to have a large Arab minority

01:22:16.780 | in the country, and they ended up

01:22:18.220 | with a large Arab minority in the country.

01:22:20.820 | 20% of the population in '49 was Arab,

01:22:24.180 | and it still is 21%.

01:22:25.020 | - They ended up for about five minutes

01:22:26.780 | before they were expelled.

01:22:28.420 | They agreed to it until '47,

01:22:30.980 | and then they were gone by March 1949.

01:22:34.140 | - What happened in between the rejection

01:22:35.700 | of the partition plan and the expulsion of the Arabs?

01:22:38.300 | - The Arabs launched the war.

01:22:39.660 | - Well, yeah, I mean, it wasn't random.

01:22:41.860 | There's a potential that-

01:22:42.700 | - I agree, it wasn't random.

01:22:44.140 | I totally agree with that.

01:22:45.700 | It was by design.

01:22:46.940 | It wasn't random. - You can say that,

01:22:48.500 | but in this case, the facts betray you.

01:22:51.020 | There was no Arab acceptance of anything

01:22:53.180 | that would have allowed for a Jewish state to exist.

01:22:55.220 | - Of course not. - Number one.

01:22:56.060 | And number two, I think that it's entirely possible,

01:22:58.380 | given how things happen after war,

01:23:00.780 | that this exact same conflict could have played out,

01:23:02.820 | and an expulsion would have happened

01:23:04.180 | without any ideology at play,

01:23:05.840 | that there was a people that disagreed

01:23:07.580 | on who had territorial rights to a land,

01:23:09.500 | there was a massive war afterwards,

01:23:10.660 | and then a bunch of their friends invaded after

01:23:12.820 | to reinforce the idea that the Jewish people,

01:23:15.140 | in this case, couldn't have a state.

01:23:16.460 | There could have been a transfer regardless.

01:23:18.340 | - Anything could have been,

01:23:20.740 | but that's not what history is about.

01:23:22.980 | - History is about Palestinian rejectionism

01:23:25.100 | to any peace deal over and over and over again.

01:23:27.300 | - As I said, when the war was thrown into the court

01:23:32.020 | of the United Nations,

01:23:34.020 | they were faced with a practical problem.

01:23:37.780 | And I, for one, am not going to try to adjudicate

01:23:42.780 | the rights and wrongs from the beginning.

01:23:45.980 | I do not believe that if territorial displacement

01:23:50.980 | and dispossession was inherent in the Zionist project,

01:23:54.780 | I do not believe it can be a legitimate political enterprise.

01:24:00.940 | Now, you might say that's speaking from 2022 or 2020.

01:24:05.940 | Where are we now? - Four now, I think.

01:24:08.340 | - Okay, but we have to recognize

01:24:12.060 | that from nearly the beginning,

01:24:15.880 | for perfectly obvious reasons,

01:24:19.740 | having nothing to do with anti-Semitism,

01:24:23.820 | anti-Westernism, anti-Europeanism,

01:24:27.700 | but because no people that I am aware of

01:24:32.380 | would voluntarily cede its country.

01:24:37.380 | - Except for all the people that sold land voluntarily.

01:24:39.820 | - You can perfectly understand

01:24:42.060 | Native American resistance to Eurocolonialism.

01:24:46.940 | You can perfectly well understand it

01:24:49.260 | without any anti-Europeanism, anti-whitism, anti-Christianism.

01:24:55.500 | They didn't want to cede their country to invaders.

01:24:58.940 | - I think you're-- - That's completely

01:25:00.220 | understandable. - You're minimizing

01:25:02.100 | the anti-Semitic element-- - You minimized it.

01:25:05.380 | - In Arab nationalism. - In all your books,

01:25:07.260 | you minimized it. - No, no, no.

01:25:09.580 | Husseini was an anti-Semite.

01:25:11.460 | The leader of the Palestinian National Movement

01:25:14.440 | in the '30s and '40s was an anti-Semite.

01:25:17.140 | This was one of the things which drove him

01:25:18.940 | and also drove him in the end to work in Berlin

01:25:21.660 | for Hitler for four years, giving Nazi propaganda

01:25:25.980 | to the Arab world, calling on the Arabs to murder the Jews.

01:25:29.060 | That's what he did in World War II.

01:25:30.660 | That's the leader of the Palestinian Arab National Movement.

01:25:34.000 | - Why is it-- - And he wasn't alone.

01:25:35.420 | He wasn't alone. - Professor, why is it

01:25:37.740 | that if you read your book, Righteous Victims,

01:25:40.860 | you can read it and read it and read it and read it,

01:25:45.240 | as I have, you will find barely a word

01:25:49.540 | about the Arabs being motivated by anti-Semitism.

01:25:53.300 | - It exists, though. - I didn't say

01:25:55.140 | it doesn't exist. - You agree that it exists.

01:25:57.780 | - Hey, I don't know a single non-Jew

01:25:59.980 | who doesn't harbor anti-Semitic sentiment.

01:26:02.180 | - We're talking about Arabs now.

01:26:03.020 | - Yeah, but I don't know anybody

01:26:05.020 | that's just part of the human condition.

01:26:08.380 | - Anti-Semitism. - Yes, I do.

01:26:10.100 | - Husseini was a-- - And among the Arabs.

01:26:12.300 | - So, Professor Mars, here's my problem.

01:26:15.060 | I didn't see that in your Righteous Victims.

01:26:19.420 | Even when you talked about the first intifada

01:26:22.620 | and you talked about the second intifada

01:26:25.220 | and you talked about how there was a lot of influence

01:26:29.020 | by Hamas, the Islamic movement,

01:26:31.620 | you even stated that there was a lot of anti-Semitism

01:26:34.980 | in those movements, but then you went on to say,

01:26:38.300 | but of course, at bottom, it was about the occupation.

01:26:43.300 | It wasn't about, and I've read it.

01:26:47.020 | - Yeah, but you're moving from different--

01:26:48.340 | - No, I'm not moving. - Ages, across the ages.

01:26:49.740 | - I'm talking about your whole book.

01:26:52.260 | - The occupation began in '67,

01:26:54.700 | the one you're talking about.

01:26:55.660 | - I looked and looked and looked for evidence

01:26:58.540 | of this anti-Semitism as being a chief motor

01:27:02.740 | of Arab resistance to Zionism.

01:27:05.820 | I didn't see it.

01:27:06.660 | - You like the-- - Did he make that claim?

01:27:08.180 | - I don't remember the word chief.

01:27:09.580 | - Yeah. - It's one of the elements.

01:27:11.300 | - I'm very binary thinking when it comes to--

01:27:12.780 | - Binary? - Yeah, it's binary.

01:27:14.460 | - Please, don't give me this post-modernism binary.

01:27:18.500 | You're the one-- - No, but you are thinking

01:27:20.060 | in terms of black and white. - You're the one

01:27:20.900 | that said the chief motor. - No, Stephen has a point.

01:27:23.100 | - Do you have your book here? - You do talk about black--

01:27:25.100 | - Page 137. - You talk in black

01:27:26.740 | and white-- - To page 37.

01:27:27.940 | - You're talking in black and white concepts

01:27:30.260 | when history is much grayer.

01:27:31.860 | Lots of things happen because of lots of reasons,

01:27:34.340 | not one or the other, and you don't seem to see that.

01:27:38.220 | - Can I ask you a question?

01:27:39.060 | 'Cause it's for them to talk to.

01:27:39.900 | Just a very quick question.

01:27:40.980 | What was, what do you think the ideal solution was

01:27:43.460 | on the Arab side from '47?

01:27:45.260 | What would they have preferred?

01:27:46.460 | And what would have happened-- - Well, they were explicit.

01:27:47.700 | - And then the second one, what would have happened

01:27:49.060 | if Jews would have lost the war in '48?

01:27:51.220 | What do you think would have happened

01:27:52.060 | to the Israeli population or Jewish population?

01:27:53.620 | - I think the Palestinians and the Arabs were explicit

01:27:58.620 | that they wanted a unitary, I think, federal state,

01:28:03.860 | and they made their submissions to UNSCOP.

01:28:09.140 | They made their appeals at the UN General Assembly.

01:28:12.900 | - What do you mean by unitary and federal?

01:28:14.460 | I don't get that.

01:28:16.220 | They wanted an Arab state.

01:28:17.500 | They wanted Palestine to be an Arab state.

01:28:19.380 | - Yes, yes.

01:28:20.220 | - Put it simply.

01:28:21.060 | Without the word unitary, federal,

01:28:22.580 | they wanted Palestine as an Arab and exclusively Arab state.

01:28:26.180 | - No, it wasn't an exclusively Arab state.

01:28:28.940 | I think we have to distinguish between Palestinian

01:28:33.180 | and Arab opposition to a Jewish state in Palestine

01:28:36.500 | on the one hand, and Palestinian and Arab attitudes

01:28:42.020 | to Jewish existence in Palestine.

01:28:44.700 | There's a fundamental difference.

01:28:45.540 | - Well, Husseini, the leader of the movement,

01:28:47.740 | said that all the Jews who had come since 1917,

01:28:51.380 | and that's the majority of the Jews in Palestine in 1947,

01:28:55.740 | shouldn't be there.

01:28:56.580 | - Well, he did say--

01:28:57.420 | - They shouldn't be citizens, and they shouldn't be there.

01:28:59.340 | - He did say that.

01:29:00.180 | - The PLO tried to say that in '64.

01:29:01.020 | I'm not going to deny it.

01:29:02.180 | Of course, it's true.

01:29:03.500 | I can understand the sentiment, but I think it's wrong.

01:29:06.420 | - But also, you guys are the ones--

01:29:08.300 | - I agree on this, and I also--

01:29:09.420 | - I want to answer your question.

01:29:10.260 | - You guys are like, 'cause you had used the words earlier

01:29:11.740 | that it was supremacy and exclusivity

01:29:13.580 | that the Zionist state was built on.

01:29:14.420 | - Well, I want to answer your question.

01:29:16.580 | Husseini did say that, and I'm sure there was

01:29:19.740 | a very substantial body of Palestinian-Arab public opinion

01:29:24.620 | that endorsed that, but by the same token,

01:29:28.700 | I think a unitary Arab state, as you call it,

01:29:33.700 | or a Palestinian state, could have been established

01:29:38.240 | with arrangements, with guarantees,

01:29:41.780 | to ensure the security and rights of both communities.

01:29:46.580 | How that would work in detail had been discussed

01:29:51.580 | and proposed, but never resolved.

01:29:54.780 | And again, I think Jewish fears about what would have--

01:29:59.780 | - A second Holocaust, that's what--

01:30:01.300 | - Well, no, I think--

01:30:02.140 | - That was the Jewish fear, a second Holocaust.

01:30:04.740 | - That may well have been the Jewish fear.

01:30:06.900 | - It was an unfounded Jewish fear.

01:30:09.360 | - It was unfounded?

01:30:10.280 | - Of course it was unfounded.

01:30:11.280 | - What about like in '48 and '56?

01:30:13.280 | - You really think that the Palestinians,

01:30:16.960 | had they won the war, were going to import ovens

01:30:19.520 | and crematoria from Germany?

01:30:20.360 | - I don't know if it would have been that bad,

01:30:21.200 | but there were pogroms across,

01:30:22.720 | in almost every single Arab state

01:30:24.720 | where there were Jews living, after '48,

01:30:27.200 | after '56, after '67, there were always pogroms,

01:30:29.980 | there were always flights from Jews

01:30:31.440 | from those countries to Israel afterwards.

01:30:32.920 | I don't think it would be--

01:30:33.760 | - I wouldn't say there were always pogroms

01:30:35.920 | in every Arab state.

01:30:36.920 | I think there was flight of Arab Jews

01:30:41.920 | for multiple reasons, in some cases,

01:30:44.440 | for precisely the reasons you say.

01:30:46.600 | If you look at the Jewish community in Algeria,

01:30:48.880 | for example, their flight had virtually nothing

01:30:51.760 | to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.

01:30:55.360 | The issue of Algerian Jews was that

01:30:58.640 | the French gave them citizenship

01:31:00.900 | during their colonial rule of Algeria,

01:31:03.480 | and they increasingly became identified

01:31:06.320 | with French rule, and when Algeria became independent

01:31:10.040 | and all the French ended up leaving

01:31:15.040 | out of fear or out of disappointment

01:31:17.440 | or out of whatever, the Jews were identified

01:31:21.160 | as French rather than Algerian.

01:31:22.880 | - This is a bit of a red herring.

01:31:24.340 | There were pogroms in the Arab countries,

01:31:26.680 | in Bahrain even, where there's almost no Jews.

01:31:29.120 | There was a pogrom in 1947.

01:31:31.540 | There was a pogrom in Aleppo in 1947.

01:31:34.000 | - I'm not denying any of that history.

01:31:34.840 | - There were killings of Jews in Iraq and Egypt

01:31:38.600 | in 1948, '49.

01:31:40.520 | - I'm not denying any--

01:31:41.360 | - So the Jews basically fled the Arab states,

01:31:44.720 | not for multiple reasons.

01:31:46.320 | They fled because they felt that the governments there

01:31:48.840 | and the societies amid which they had lived

01:31:51.960 | for hundreds of years no longer wanted them.

01:31:54.200 | - Look, without getting into the details,

01:31:56.400 | I think we can both agree that ultimately

01:31:59.640 | a clear majority of Arab Jews who believed

01:32:03.260 | that after having lived in these countries for--

01:32:06.780 | - Way before the Arabs, way before the Arabs arrived there.

01:32:09.820 | - For centuries, if not millennia,

01:32:14.820 | came to the unfortunate conclusion

01:32:17.540 | that their situation had become untenable.

01:32:19.760 | - Yes.

01:32:21.180 | - I also think that we can both agree

01:32:25.040 | that this had never been an issue prior to Zionism

01:32:27.940 | and the emergence of the State of Israel.

01:32:29.860 | Look, I'm not--

01:32:30.700 | - Pogroms didn't begin with Zionism in the Arab world.

01:32:34.100 | - The issue is the point I raised,

01:32:36.980 | which is whether these communities had ever come

01:32:40.860 | to a collective conclusion that their position

01:32:44.520 | had become untenable in this part of the world.

01:32:46.980 | No, they were Arab Jews.

01:32:48.180 | - Well, because untenable meant there was no alternative,

01:32:50.260 | but with the creation of Israel,

01:32:51.700 | there was an alternative, right?

01:32:52.940 | A place where they could go and not be discriminated against

01:32:55.340 | or live as second-class citizens

01:32:56.600 | or be subject to Arab-majority states.

01:32:59.340 | I also think it's interesting

01:33:00.540 | that when you analyze the flight of Jewish people,

01:33:03.460 | and I've seen this, it wasn't just, I agree with you,

01:33:06.060 | it wasn't just a mass expulsion from all the Arab states.

01:33:08.120 | There were definitely push factors.

01:33:09.300 | There were also pull factors.

01:33:10.940 | Now, I don't know how you guys feel about the Nakba,

01:33:12.500 | but when the analysis of the Nakba comes in,

01:33:14.380 | again, it's back to that,

01:33:15.540 | well, that was actually just a top-down expulsion.

01:33:18.940 | The retreat of wealthy Arab people in the '30s didn't matter.

01:33:22.600 | Any of the messaging

01:33:23.440 | from the surrounding Arab states didn't matter.

01:33:24.660 | It was just an expulsion from Jewish people

01:33:27.860 | or people running from their lives from Jewish massacres.

01:33:31.520 | Again, I feel like it's that selective,

01:33:33.200 | it's a selective critical analysis of the-

01:33:34.040 | - Again, I'm a little uncomfortable

01:33:34.860 | always using the term Jewish here,

01:33:35.840 | because it wasn't the Jews of England or the Soviet Jews.

01:33:40.640 | - Well, I say Jewish because prior to '48,

01:33:41.960 | it's saying Israeli, the Yishuv, I guess, or whatever.

01:33:44.040 | - I think we should, I think it's useful to say,

01:33:48.000 | refer to Zionists before 1948 and Israelis after '48.

01:33:51.280 | We don't need to implicate Jews elsewhere.

01:33:53.520 | - Sure, but the Jewish people

01:33:54.980 | that were being attacked in Arab states weren't Zionists,

01:33:57.500 | they were just Jews living there, right?

01:33:58.340 | - Okay, allow me to just comment on that.

01:34:00.400 | I was rereading Shlomo Ben-Ami's last book,

01:34:05.400 | and he does, at the end, discuss at some length

01:34:08.100 | the whole issue of the refugee question

01:34:10.140 | bearing on the so-called peace process.

01:34:12.620 | And on the question of '48 and the Arab emigration,

01:34:16.380 | if you'll allow me, let me just quote him.

01:34:19.140 | "Israel is particularly fond

01:34:22.060 | "of the awkwardly false symmetry she makes

01:34:26.260 | "between the Palestinian refugee crisis

01:34:29.560 | "and the forced emigration of 600,000 Jews

01:34:32.880 | "from Arab countries following the creation

01:34:35.940 | "of the state of Israel, as if it were, quote,

01:34:39.420 | "an unplanned exchange of populations," unquote.

01:34:43.720 | And then Mr. Ben-Ami, for those of you who are listening,

01:34:46.280 | he was Israel's former foreign minister,

01:34:49.320 | and he's an influential historian in his own right.

01:34:52.320 | He says, "In fact, envoys from the Mossad

01:34:56.860 | "and the Jewish agency worked underground

01:35:00.700 | "in Arab countries and Iran

01:35:05.160 | "to encourage Jews to go to Israel.

01:35:08.700 | "More importantly, for many Jews in Arab states,

01:35:13.360 | "the very possibility of emigrating to Israel

01:35:17.040 | "was the culmination of millennial aspirations.

01:35:21.620 | "It represented the consummation of a dream

01:35:24.960 | "to take part in Israel's resurgence as a nation."

01:35:29.800 | So this idea that they were all expelled after 1948,

01:35:34.800 | that's one area, Professor Morris, I defer to expertise.

01:35:41.000 | That's one of my credos in life.

01:35:43.560 | I don't know the Israeli literature,

01:35:45.440 | but as it's been translated in English,

01:35:49.400 | there's very little solid scholarship

01:35:52.040 | on what happened in 1948 in the Arab countries

01:35:55.560 | and which caused the Jews to leave.

01:35:57.300 | - Arab Jews.

01:35:58.280 | - The Arab Jews, right.

01:35:59.480 | But Shlomo Ben-Ami knows the literature.

01:36:04.560 | He knows the scholarship.

01:36:05.500 | He knows the history. - He also comes

01:36:06.340 | from the Tangiers.

01:36:07.160 | - Yeah, so-- - He's from Morocco.

01:36:08.200 | - Right, so he knows--

01:36:09.040 | - Avi Shleim from Iraq has written on this issue as well.

01:36:11.640 | - And they wrote that the Jews in the Arab lands

01:36:13.920 | were not pro-Zionist.

01:36:15.640 | They weren't Zionists at all.

01:36:17.040 | Certainly, Avi Shleim's family was anti-Zionist.

01:36:19.800 | - And Avi Shleim, when he was interviewed

01:36:21.680 | by Merrin Rappaport on this question, he said,

01:36:24.320 | "You simply cannot say that the Iraqi Jews were expelled.

01:36:27.680 | "It's just not true."

01:36:29.240 | And he was speaking as an Iraqi Jew

01:36:31.240 | who left with his father and family in 1948.

01:36:35.000 | - They were pushed out.

01:36:35.840 | They weren't expelled.

01:36:37.320 | That's probably the right phrase.

01:36:38.880 | - I think it's-- - They were pushed out.

01:36:39.720 | - I think it's more complex than that.

01:36:42.440 | I think it was, sorry, I interrupted you.

01:36:44.600 | - No, you're not interrupting me 'cause I don't know.

01:36:46.560 | I only know what's been translated into English

01:36:49.600 | and the English literature on the subject

01:36:51.780 | is very small and not scholarly.

01:36:56.240 | Now, there may be a Hebrew literature, I don't know,

01:37:00.280 | but I was surprised that even Shlomo Ben-Ami,

01:37:04.200 | a stoward of his state, fair enough,

01:37:07.200 | on this particular point, he called it false symmetry.

01:37:10.520 | - No, no, Stephen is right.

01:37:11.560 | There was a pull and a push mechanism

01:37:13.920 | in the departure of the Jews from the Arab lands post '48,

01:37:17.820 | but there was also a lot of push, a lot of push.

01:37:20.240 | - That's indisputable.

01:37:21.680 | There was push.

01:37:22.520 | And on the point of agreement,

01:37:25.040 | on this one brief light of agreement,

01:37:27.120 | let us wrap up with this topic of history

01:37:32.120 | and move on to modern day, but before that,

01:37:35.520 | I'm wondering if we could just say

01:37:38.800 | a couple of last words on this topic, Stephen.

01:37:41.240 | - Yeah, I think that when you look at the behaviors

01:37:43.400 | of both parties in the time period around '48,

01:37:48.400 | or especially '48 and earlier,

01:37:50.880 | there's this assumption that there was

01:37:51.960 | this huge built-in mechanism of Zionism

01:37:54.240 | and that it was going to be inevitable

01:37:55.960 | from the inception of the first Zionist thought,

01:37:58.960 | I guess, that appeared in Herzl's mind

01:38:00.600 | that there would be a mass violent population transfer

01:38:03.640 | of Arab Palestinians out of

01:38:05.640 | what would become the Israeli state.

01:38:07.920 | I understand that there are some quotes that we can find

01:38:10.640 | that maybe seem to possibly support an idea

01:38:13.360 | that looks close to that,

01:38:14.580 | but I think when you actually consult the record

01:38:16.280 | of what happened, when you look at the populations,

01:38:19.120 | the massive populations that Israel was willing to accept

01:38:22.640 | within what would become their state borders,

01:38:24.840 | their nation borders,

01:38:26.080 | I just don't think that the historical record agrees

01:38:28.480 | with the idea that Zionists would have just never been okay

01:38:31.240 | living alongside Arab Palestinians.

01:38:33.860 | But when you look at the other side,

01:38:36.120 | Arabs would out of hand reject literally any deal

01:38:39.240 | that apportioned any amount of that land

01:38:41.760 | for any state relating to Jewish people

01:38:44.140 | or the Israeli people.

01:38:45.600 | I think it was said even on the other end of the table

01:38:47.120 | that Arab Palestinians would have never accepted,

01:38:49.840 | the Arabs would have never accepted

01:38:50.760 | any Jewish state whatsoever.

01:38:52.480 | So it's interesting that on the ideology part

01:38:55.420 | where it's claimed that Zionists are people of exclusion

01:38:58.000 | and supremacy and expulsion,

01:39:00.320 | we can find that in diary entries,

01:39:01.720 | but we can find that expressed in very real terms

01:39:04.200 | on the Arab side,

01:39:05.200 | I think in all of their behavior around 48 and earlier,

01:39:07.960 | where the goal was the destruction of the Israeli state.

01:39:10.840 | It would have been the dispossession of many Jewish people.

01:39:12.760 | It probably would have been the expulsion

01:39:13.840 | of a lot of them back to Europe.

01:39:15.460 | And I think that very clearly plays out

01:39:16.940 | in the difference between the actions of the Arabs

01:39:18.440 | versus some diary entries of some Jewish leaders.

01:39:21.720 | - Benny?

01:39:22.720 | - Well, one thing which stood out

01:39:24.360 | and I think Muin made this point

01:39:27.440 | is that the Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust,

01:39:30.000 | but then the world community forced the Arabs

01:39:32.400 | to pay the price for the Holocaust.

01:39:34.480 | That's the traditional Arab argument.

01:39:38.200 | This is slightly distorting the reality.

01:39:40.720 | The Arabs in the 1930s did their utmost

01:39:44.520 | to prevent Jewish immigration from Europe

01:39:47.560 | and reaching Palestine,

01:39:49.240 | which was the only safe haven available

01:39:51.200 | 'cause America, Britain, France,

01:39:53.080 | nobody wanted Jews anywhere

01:39:54.320 | and they were being persecuted in central Europe

01:39:56.840 | and eventually would be massacred in large numbers.

01:39:59.880 | So the Arab effort to pressure the British

01:40:03.120 | to prevent Jews reaching Palestine's safe shores

01:40:07.080 | contributed indirectly to the slaughter

01:40:10.120 | of many Jews in Europe

01:40:11.800 | 'cause they couldn't get to anywhere

01:40:13.320 | and they couldn't get to Palestine

01:40:14.880 | 'cause the Arabs were busy attacking Jews in Palestine

01:40:17.840 | and attacking the British to make sure

01:40:19.720 | they didn't allow Jews to reach this safe haven.

01:40:23.280 | That's important.

01:40:24.280 | The second thing is, of course,

01:40:25.600 | there's no point in belittling the fact

01:40:27.680 | that the Palestinian Arab National Movement's leader,

01:40:31.800 | Husseini, worked for the Nazis in the 1940s.

01:40:35.360 | He got a salary from the German Foreign Ministry.

01:40:38.600 | He raised troops among Muslims in Bosnia for the SS

01:40:43.280 | and he broadcast to the Arab world

01:40:45.880 | calling for the murder of the Jews in the Middle East.

01:40:49.360 | This is what he did.

01:40:50.200 | And the Arabs, since then,

01:40:51.760 | have been trying to whitewash Husseini's role.

01:40:55.720 | I'm not saying he was the instigator of the Holocaust,

01:40:59.440 | but he helped the Germans along

01:41:04.040 | in doing what they were doing

01:41:06.440 | and supported them in doing that.

01:41:09.000 | So this can't be removed from the fact

01:41:11.360 | that the Arabs, as you say, paid a price for the Holocaust,

01:41:15.240 | but they also participated in various ways

01:41:17.720 | in helping it happen.

01:41:19.800 | - I'll make two points.

01:41:23.640 | The first is, you mentioned Haj Amin al-Husseini

01:41:28.160 | and his collaboration with the Nazis,

01:41:31.400 | entirely legitimate point to raise,

01:41:34.840 | but I think one can also say definitively

01:41:38.240 | had Haj Amin al-Husseini never existed,

01:41:41.440 | the Holocaust would have played out precisely as it did.

01:41:46.440 | As far as Palestinian opposition

01:41:49.880 | to Jewish immigration to Palestine

01:41:52.840 | during the 1930s is concerned,

01:41:55.520 | it was of a different character than, for example,

01:41:59.160 | British and American rejection of Jewish immigration.

01:42:04.080 | They just didn't want Jews on their soil.

01:42:05.920 | - Objectively, it helped the Germans kill the Jews.

01:42:08.680 | - In the Palestinian case,

01:42:10.160 | their opposition to Jewish immigration

01:42:13.000 | was to prevent the transformation of their homeland

01:42:16.200 | into a Jewish state that would dispossess them.

01:42:19.160 | And I think that's an important distinction to make.

01:42:22.920 | The other point I wanted to make

01:42:24.320 | is we've spent the past several hours

01:42:27.080 | talking about Zionism, transfer, and so on,

01:42:31.520 | but I think there's a more fundamental aspect to this,

01:42:35.280 | which is that Zionism, I think,

01:42:39.160 | would have emerged and disappeared

01:42:41.920 | as yet one more utopian political project

01:42:46.240 | had it not been for the British,

01:42:49.040 | what the preeminent Palestinian historian,

01:42:51.360 | Walid Khaledi, has termed the British shield,

01:42:54.840 | because I think without the British sponsorship,

01:42:58.720 | we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

01:43:01.100 | The British sponsored Zionism for a very simple reason,

01:43:07.320 | which is that during World War I,

01:43:10.680 | the Ottoman armies attempted to march on the Suez Canal.

01:43:15.280 | Suez Canal was the jugular vein of the British Empire

01:43:20.280 | between Europe and India,

01:43:23.520 | and the British came to the conclusion

01:43:25.680 | that they needed to secure the Suez Canal from any threat.

01:43:30.680 | And as the British have done so often in so many places,

01:43:34.760 | how do you deal with this?

01:43:35.800 | Well, you bring in a foreign minority,

01:43:40.960 | implant them amongst a hostile population,

01:43:45.240 | and establish a protectorate over them.

01:43:47.520 | I don't think a Jewish state in Palestine

01:43:51.720 | had been part of British intentions,

01:43:54.000 | and the Balfour Declaration very specifically speaks

01:43:57.440 | about a Jewish national home in Palestine,

01:43:59.640 | in other words, a British protectorate.

01:44:02.960 | Things ended up taking a different course,

01:44:07.560 | and I think the most important development

01:44:11.320 | was World War II,

01:44:13.360 | and I think this had maybe less to do with the Holocaust,

01:44:16.760 | and more to do with the effective bankruptcy

01:44:20.400 | of the United Kingdom during that war,

01:44:23.080 | and its inability to sustain its global empire.

01:44:26.800 | It ended up giving up India,

01:44:28.880 | ended up giving up Palestine,

01:44:31.600 | and it's in that context, I think,

01:44:33.960 | that we need to see the emergence

01:44:37.000 | of a Jewish state in Palestine.

01:44:40.640 | And again, a Jewish state means a state

01:44:44.280 | in which the Jewish community enjoys

01:44:48.320 | not only a demographic majority,

01:44:51.280 | but an uncontestable demographic majority,

01:44:55.480 | an uncontestable territorial hegemony,

01:45:00.080 | and an uncontestable political supremacy.

01:45:03.800 | And that is also why, after 1948,

01:45:07.760 | the nascent Israeli state confiscated,

01:45:10.240 | I believe, up to 90% of lands

01:45:14.640 | that had been previously owned

01:45:17.760 | by Palestinians who became citizens of Israel.

01:45:21.000 | It is why the new Israeli state

01:45:23.240 | imposed a military government

01:45:26.040 | on its population of Palestinian citizens

01:45:30.480 | between 1948 and 1966.

01:45:34.960 | It is why the Israeli state

01:45:38.040 | effectively reduced the Palestinians

01:45:43.040 | living within the Israeli state

01:45:44.720 | as citizens of the Israeli state

01:45:46.960 | to second-class citizens,

01:45:48.960 | on the one hand, promoting Jewish nationalism

01:45:52.440 | and Jewish nationalist parties,

01:45:53.840 | on the other hand, doing everything within its power

01:45:56.580 | to suppress and eliminate Palestinian

01:45:59.440 | or Arab nationalist movements.

01:46:02.720 | And that's why today there's a consensus

01:46:05.640 | among all major human rights organizations

01:46:08.600 | that Israel is an apartheid state.

01:46:11.720 | With the Israeli human rights organization,

01:46:14.120 | B'Tselem describes a regime of Jewish supremacy

01:46:17.720 | between the river and the sea.

01:46:19.860 | - You're really tempting a response

01:46:21.720 | from the other side on the last few sentences.

01:46:24.000 | - Propaganda, yeah, okay.

01:46:25.120 | We'll talk about the claims of apartheid and so on.

01:46:28.800 | It's a fascinating discussion, we need to have it.

01:46:31.640 | Norm?

01:46:32.640 | - On the question of the responsibility

01:46:36.640 | of the Palestinian Arabs for the Nazi holocaust,

01:46:39.280 | direct or indirect, I consider that an absurd claim.

01:46:43.980 | As Gromyko said, and I quoted him,

01:46:49.320 | the entire Western world turned its back on the Jews

01:46:53.520 | to somehow focus on the Palestinians

01:46:56.960 | strikes me as completely ridiculous.

01:47:00.040 | Number two, as Muin said,

01:47:02.840 | there's a perfectly understandable reason

01:47:06.720 | why Palestinian Arabs wouldn't want Jews,

01:47:10.160 | because in their minds and not irrationally,

01:47:14.020 | these Jews intended to create a Jewish state

01:47:17.120 | which would quite likely have resulted in their expulsion.

01:47:21.400 | I'm a very generous person.

01:47:23.800 | I've actually taken in a homeless person

01:47:25.800 | for two and a half years.

01:47:27.860 | But if I knew in advance that that homeless person

01:47:32.160 | was going to try to turn me out of my apartment,

01:47:35.880 | I would think 10,000 times before I took him in, okay?

01:47:40.880 | As far as the actual complicity of the Palestinian Arabs,

01:47:49.440 | if you look at Raoul Hilberg's three volume classic work,

01:47:54.000 | "The Destruction of the European Jewry",

01:47:56.760 | he has in those thousand plus pages,

01:48:00.880 | one sentence on the role of the Mufti of Jerusalem.

01:48:05.880 | And that I think is probably an overstatement,

01:48:10.080 | but we'll leave it aside.

01:48:12.000 | The only two points I would make

01:48:13.640 | aside from the holocaust point is,

01:48:16.260 | number one, I do think the transfer discussion

01:48:19.360 | is useful because it indicates

01:48:22.400 | that there was a rational reason

01:48:25.320 | behind the Arab resistance

01:48:28.320 | to Jewish or Zionist immigration to Palestine,

01:48:31.840 | the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession.

01:48:36.280 | And number two, there are two issues.

01:48:39.720 | One is the history, and the second is

01:48:43.680 | being responsible for your words.

01:48:47.860 | Now, some people accuse me of speaking very slowly,

01:48:51.720 | and they're advised on YouTube

01:48:53.920 | to turn up the speed twice to three times whenever I'm on.

01:48:58.520 | One of the reasons I speak slowly

01:49:01.100 | is because I attach value to every word I say.

01:49:06.100 | And it is discomforting, disorienting,

01:49:11.040 | where you have a person who's produced a voluminous corpus

01:49:17.040 | rich in insights and rich in archival sources,

01:49:22.040 | who seems to disown each and every word

01:49:30.700 | that you pluck from that corpus

01:49:34.820 | by claiming that it's either out of context

01:49:37.660 | or it's cherry picking.

01:49:39.900 | Words count.

01:49:42.980 | And I agree with Lex.

01:49:45.620 | Everybody has the right to rescind

01:49:48.660 | what they've said in the past.

01:49:50.900 | But what you cannot claim

01:49:53.660 | is that you didn't say what you said.

01:49:56.860 | - I'll stick to the history, not the current propaganda.

01:50:00.460 | 1917, the British,

01:50:03.980 | the Zionist movement began way before the British

01:50:06.420 | supported the Zionist movement for decades.

01:50:08.940 | In 1917, the British jumped in

01:50:11.260 | and issued the Balfour Declaration

01:50:13.480 | supporting the emergence

01:50:14.500 | of a Jewish national home in Palestine,

01:50:17.080 | which most people understood to mean

01:50:18.860 | eventual Jewish statehood in Palestine.

01:50:21.580 | Most people understood that in Britain

01:50:23.460 | and among the Zionists and among the Arabs.

01:50:26.520 | But the British declared the Balfour Declaration

01:50:30.300 | or issued the Balfour Declaration

01:50:32.180 | not only because of imperial self-interest.

01:50:34.740 | And this is what you're basically saying.

01:50:36.860 | They had the imperial interests, a buffer state,

01:50:39.540 | which would protect the Suez Canal from the east.

01:50:42.700 | The British also were motivated by idealism.

01:50:45.500 | And this incidentally is how Balfour

01:50:47.620 | described the reasoning behind issuing the declaration.

01:50:51.460 | And he said, the Western world, Western Christendom

01:50:54.900 | owes the Jews a great debt,

01:50:56.940 | both for giving the world and the West, if you like,

01:51:01.340 | values, social values, as embodied in the Bible,

01:51:06.340 | social justice and all sorts of other things.

01:51:09.180 | And the Christian world owes the Jews

01:51:11.300 | because it persecuted them for 2000 years.

01:51:14.500 | This debt we're now beginning to repay

01:51:16.860 | with the 1917 declaration favoring Zionism.

01:51:21.220 | But it's also worth remembering

01:51:23.420 | that the Jews weren't proxies or attached

01:51:27.440 | to the British imperial endeavor.

01:51:30.860 | They were happy to receive British support in 1917.

01:51:34.700 | And then subsequently when the British ruled Palestine

01:51:37.700 | for 20, 30 years, but they weren't part

01:51:42.100 | of the British imperial design or mission.

01:51:45.540 | They wanted a state for themselves.

01:51:47.420 | The Jews happy to have the British support them,

01:51:50.180 | happy today to have the Americans support Israel.

01:51:53.020 | But it's not because we're stooges

01:51:54.820 | or extensions of American imperial interests.

01:51:58.040 | The British incidentally always described

01:52:01.620 | in Arab narratives of propaganda

01:52:03.940 | as consistent supporters of Zionism.

01:52:06.740 | They weren't.

01:52:07.580 | The first British rulers in Palestine, 1917, 1920--

01:52:11.500 | - Herbert Samuel.

01:52:12.340 | - No, before Herbert Samuel.

01:52:13.860 | Samuel came in 1920.

01:52:15.620 | The British ruled there for three years previously.

01:52:18.460 | And most of the leaders, the British generals

01:52:20.980 | and so on who were in Palestine were anti-Zionist.

01:52:23.940 | And subsequently in the 20s and 30s,

01:52:26.300 | the British occasionally curbed Zionist immigration

01:52:30.100 | to Palestine.

01:52:30.940 | And in 1939 switched horses

01:52:33.380 | and supported the Arab national movement and not Zionism.

01:52:36.560 | They turned anti-Zionist and basically said,

01:52:38.780 | "You Arabs will rule Palestine within the next 10 years.

01:52:42.380 | This is what we're giving you

01:52:43.500 | by limiting Jewish immigration to Palestine."

01:52:46.820 | But the Arabs didn't actually understand

01:52:48.820 | what they were being given

01:52:50.060 | on the silver platter, Husseini again.

01:52:52.540 | And he said, "No, no, we can't accept

01:52:54.500 | the British white paper of May 1939,"

01:52:56.980 | which had given the Arabs everything they wanted basically,

01:52:59.860 | self-determination in an Arab majority state.

01:53:02.940 | So what I'm saying is the British at some point

01:53:06.540 | did support the Zionist enterprise,

01:53:09.380 | but at other points were less consistent in the support.

01:53:12.300 | And in 1939 until 1948, when they didn't vote

01:53:16.120 | even for partition for Jewish statehood in Palestine

01:53:19.340 | in the UN resolution, they didn't support Zionism

01:53:22.620 | during the last decade of the mandate.

01:53:24.700 | It's worth remembering that.

01:53:25.940 | - I'd like to respond to that.

01:53:27.420 | I mean, speaking of propaganda,

01:53:31.780 | I find it simply impossible to accept that Balfour,

01:53:36.780 | who as British prime minister in 1905

01:53:40.620 | was a chief sponsor of the Aliens Act,

01:53:44.580 | which was specifically-- - He changed his mind.

01:53:46.660 | - Which was specifically designed--

01:53:49.340 | - To keep out Jews. - To keep persecuted

01:53:50.940 | Eastern European Jews out of the streets of the UK,

01:53:54.820 | and who was denounced as an anti-Semite

01:53:58.140 | by the entire British Jewish establishment.

01:54:01.860 | A decade later, all of a sudden--

01:54:03.940 | - Changed his mind. - People change their minds.

01:54:07.500 | But when the changing of the mind

01:54:12.100 | just coincidentally happens to coincide

01:54:15.620 | with the British imperial interest,

01:54:18.860 | I think perhaps the transformation

01:54:21.380 | is a little more superficial

01:54:24.420 | than he's being given credit for.

01:54:25.980 | It was clearly a British imperial venture,

01:54:30.440 | and if there had been no threat to the Suez Canal

01:54:33.820 | during World War I,

01:54:35.220 | regardless of what Balfour would have thought

01:54:38.260 | about the Jews and their contribution

01:54:40.220 | to history and their persecution and so on,

01:54:43.860 | there would have been no Balfour Declaration.

01:54:45.420 | - Can I ask you real quick a question on that?

01:54:46.620 | Why did the British ever cap immigration then

01:54:49.260 | from Jews to that area at all?

01:54:51.740 | - Well, we're talking now about--

01:54:54.580 | - '20s, '30s. - '19, '17.

01:54:55.540 | - Sure, but I'm saying that if the whole goal

01:54:57.220 | was just to be an imperialist project,

01:54:58.860 | there were terrorist attacks from Jewish--

01:55:01.860 | - Yes, but I'll answer you. - Yeah, in the '40s, yeah.

01:55:04.580 | - And we're talking now about 1917,

01:55:07.780 | and as I mentioned earlier,

01:55:09.700 | I don't think the British had a Jewish state in mind.

01:55:13.460 | That's why they used the term Jewish national home.

01:55:16.020 | I think what they wanted was a British protectorate,

01:55:19.580 | loyal to and dependent upon the British.

01:55:24.380 | I think an outstanding review of British policy

01:55:28.820 | towards these issues during the Mandate

01:55:30.300 | has been done by Martin Bunton

01:55:33.220 | of the University of Victoria,

01:55:35.020 | and he basically makes the argument

01:55:38.500 | that once the British realized the mess they were in,

01:55:43.660 | certainly by the late '20s, early '30s,

01:55:47.420 | they recognized the mess they were in,

01:55:51.820 | the irreconcilable differences,

01:55:53.980 | and basically pursued a policy of just muddling on.

01:55:57.180 | And muddling on in the context of British rule in Palestine,

01:56:03.220 | whose overall purpose was to serve

01:56:08.500 | for the development of Zionist institutions,

01:56:13.100 | Yeshuv's economy, and so on,

01:56:15.420 | meant, even if the British

01:56:18.380 | were not self-consciously doing this,

01:56:21.260 | preparing the groundwork

01:56:22.740 | for the eventual establishment of a Jewish state.

01:56:25.260 | I don't know if that answers your question.

01:56:26.740 | - Except they did turn anti-Zionist in 1939.

01:56:29.340 | - Yes, of course.

01:56:30.180 | - And maintained that anti-- - They were being shot off

01:56:31.820 | by the Kurds. - And maintained that Zionist,

01:56:33.420 | no, no, before they were being shot off,

01:56:34.980 | but maintained that anti-Zionist posture until 1948.

01:56:38.460 | - Okay.

01:56:39.300 | - And if I may, just also one point.

01:56:41.780 | You mentioned Haj Amin al-Husseini

01:56:44.260 | during, well, entirely legitimate.

01:56:46.540 | But what I would also point out

01:56:51.140 | is that you had a Zionist organization, the Lehi.

01:56:55.940 | - 300 people.

01:56:57.020 | - 300 people, one of whom happened

01:56:58.620 | to become an Israeli prime minister,

01:57:00.380 | an Israeli foreign minister,

01:57:01.620 | a speaker of Israeli parliament.

01:57:03.380 | - Maybe you should give his name.

01:57:06.140 | - Yitzhak Shamir, proposing an alliance

01:57:10.540 | with Nazi Germany in 1941.

01:57:13.740 | - Shamir proposed the-- - Shamir, well, no,

01:57:15.260 | the Lehi proposed.

01:57:16.740 | - Some people in the Lehi proposed--

01:57:18.260 | - Of which Shamir was a prominent leader.

01:57:19.100 | - Yeah, but this is a red herring also.

01:57:20.740 | - No, no, okay, well, if he's a red herring,

01:57:22.900 | Haj Amin al-Husseini is a red whale.

01:57:26.020 | I'm sorry.

01:57:26.860 | - The Lehi was an unimportant organization in the Yishuv.

01:57:30.100 | 300 people versus 30,000 belonged to the Haganah.

01:57:33.460 | So it was not a very important organization.

01:57:35.620 | It's true, before the Holocaust actually began,

01:57:38.180 | they wanted allies against the British,

01:57:39.980 | where they could find them.

01:57:40.820 | - We're talking 1941 here, not 1931.

01:57:43.020 | - We're talking 1940.

01:57:43.860 | - '41, from what I recall.

01:57:45.180 | - 1940, they approached the German emissary

01:57:48.740 | in Istanbul or something. - In Ankara, yes.

01:57:50.500 | - And if I may, proposed an alliance with Nazi Germany

01:57:55.500 | on what the Lehi described as on the basis

01:57:59.060 | of shared ideological principles.

01:58:02.380 | - No, they didn't share ideological principles.

01:58:03.620 | - Well, they said they did.

01:58:04.620 | - No, they didn't.

01:58:05.460 | - They did revile--

01:58:06.300 | - Why are you doing these things?

01:58:07.740 | Of course they said it, you know the state,

01:58:10.340 | but you know what the statement said

01:58:13.740 | on the basis of a shared ideology.

01:58:16.620 | Why do you say no?

01:58:17.860 | - You think that the--

01:58:18.700 | - Wait, wait, wait, the Lehi people were Nazis.

01:58:20.620 | Is that what you're saying?

01:58:21.460 | - I'm saying that--

01:58:22.300 | - Did you say that?

01:58:23.140 | No, are you saying that?

01:58:24.900 | Forget statements.

01:58:25.900 | You like to quote things.

01:58:27.100 | But were they Nazis?

01:58:29.140 | Were the Lehi Nazis?

01:58:31.260 | That's what I'm asking.

01:58:32.780 | - What did he say?

01:58:33.620 | - Some of them supported Stalin incidentally.

01:58:34.460 | - Did he say that the basis of the pact

01:58:36.340 | was their agreement on ideology?

01:58:38.300 | - There wasn't any pact.

01:58:39.220 | They suggested, they proposed an agreement.

01:58:41.780 | - And what did the agreement say?

01:58:43.300 | - They wanted arms against the British.

01:58:45.180 | That's what they wanted.

01:58:46.020 | - What did the agreement say?

01:58:46.860 | - Khashamina Hosseini wanted also.

01:58:48.460 | That's what--

01:58:49.300 | - No, no, but they didn't--

01:58:50.140 | - Others in India--

01:58:50.980 | - The Lehi people didn't work in Berlin

01:58:52.940 | helping the Nazi regime.

01:58:54.380 | - I mean, it's what the IRA wanted also.

01:58:55.980 | - No, but this is what Khashamina Hosseini did.

01:58:58.740 | You know that he was an anti-Semite.

01:59:00.660 | You've probably read some of his works.

01:59:03.180 | - Yeah.

01:59:04.020 | - He wasn't just anti-British.

01:59:04.860 | - Yes, and--

01:59:05.700 | - He was also anti-Semitic.

01:59:06.540 | - And--

01:59:07.380 | - So he had a common ground with Hitler.

01:59:08.540 | - I think--

01:59:09.380 | - It's a simple fact.

01:59:10.220 | - I think we can agree.

01:59:11.060 | - Not every anti-Semite is a Hitlerite.

01:59:12.780 | I think we can--

01:59:13.620 | - But that part--

01:59:14.460 | - He literally worked with the Nazis to recruit people.

01:59:16.380 | He wasn't just a guy posting or--

01:59:17.700 | - Yes, and he was an absolutely revolting,

01:59:20.460 | disgusting human being.

01:59:22.820 | - This I'm happy to hear.

01:59:23.660 | - I have no--

01:59:24.740 | - But the problem is you're saying--

01:59:25.580 | - If you think--

01:59:26.420 | - I don't believe that.

01:59:27.260 | - You're saying that Hosseini was his influence,

01:59:28.100 | you're saying the Mufti was--

01:59:28.940 | - But I don't even understand of all the crimes

01:59:32.080 | you want to ascribe to the Palestinian people,

01:59:35.700 | trying to blame them directly, indirectly, indirectly,

01:59:39.820 | or indirectly three times to move for the Nazi Holocaust

01:59:43.780 | is completely lunatic.

01:59:46.060 | - Hold on, wait, there's not a,

01:59:47.020 | he's not blaming them for the Holocaust.

01:59:48.780 | He's saying that from the perspective--

01:59:49.600 | - No, no, no.

01:59:50.440 | - Wait, wait, wait, no.

01:59:51.260 | He's saying that from the perspective of Jews in the region,

01:59:53.580 | Palestinians would have been part of the region.

01:59:55.260 | That is exactly--

01:59:56.100 | - That's not what he's saying.

01:59:56.920 | You have not read him.

01:59:57.760 | - That is exactly what he said.

01:59:58.600 | - I've read him.

01:59:59.420 | - You've read him and you don't understand him.

02:00:00.260 | - You've read Wikipedia.

02:00:01.100 | - He says right here.

02:00:01.920 | - Believe me, I'm a lot more literate than you, Mr. Borrelli.

02:00:03.980 | - I'm gonna believe the guy that wrote the stuff.

02:00:04.820 | - You read what Wikipedia says.

02:00:06.460 | - That's great.

02:00:07.300 | - I read Danny Morris.

02:00:08.120 | - And you don't even speak Hebrew

02:00:08.960 | and you call yourself an Israeli historian.

02:00:10.460 | We're all here on different grounds.

02:00:11.780 | - I just want, if I can just respond to--

02:00:13.420 | - Well, no, no, I'm just saying that there were two tricks.

02:00:17.140 | That's fine.

02:00:17.980 | There were two tricks that are being played here

02:00:19.120 | that I think is interesting.

02:00:20.100 | One is you guys claim that the Leahy was trying

02:00:22.340 | to forge an alliance with Nazi Germany

02:00:23.860 | because of a shared ideology.

02:00:25.300 | - That's what they said.

02:00:26.120 | - Yeah, but hold on.

02:00:26.960 | No, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait.

02:00:27.780 | No, no, it's about what you said.

02:00:29.260 | You brought that up to imply that Zionism

02:00:32.100 | must be inexorably linked to--

02:00:34.020 | - No, I'm sorry.

02:00:34.860 | - No, you're putting words in my mouth.

02:00:36.620 | - Okay, wait, well, then what was the purpose

02:00:38.100 | of saying that the Leahy claimed that they,

02:00:39.980 | the Leahy who were a small group of people

02:00:42.020 | that were reviled by many in Israel.

02:00:43.660 | - Not many, by everybody practically.

02:00:45.780 | They were called terrorists.

02:00:46.980 | - So reviled.

02:00:47.820 | - The Zionist movement called them terrorists.

02:00:49.260 | - Yes, yes, and Shamir called himself a terrorist.

02:00:54.260 | They were so irrelevant that their leader

02:00:57.260 | ended up being kicked upstairs

02:00:59.180 | to the leader of the Israeli parliament.

02:01:00.860 | - That's Israeli parliament.

02:01:01.700 | - To the Israeli, to Israeli foreign minister.

02:01:04.420 | - And Begin was also--

02:01:06.100 | - Yes, you wanna characterize him as irrelevant as well?

02:01:09.100 | Go ahead.

02:01:09.940 | - No, no, no, characterize him as relevant or irrelevant

02:01:11.380 | based on what happens decades later.

02:01:12.620 | The timeline matters.

02:01:14.260 | - Well--

02:01:15.100 | - The question is, what is the point of saying

02:01:16.220 | that the Leahy tried to forge an alliance--

02:01:17.660 | - Why is, why is, why is--

02:01:20.460 | - Relevant is bringing up the Mufti of Jerusalem

02:01:23.740 | and trying to blame the Holocaust indirectly.

02:01:25.900 | - No, no, no, the Mufti was the leader

02:01:29.220 | of the Palestine Arab National Movement.

02:01:31.780 | The Leahy was 300 people.

02:01:32.620 | - And he had as much to do with the Nazi Holocaust as I did.

02:01:35.820 | - No, he recruited people for the SS.

02:01:38.820 | How can you get away from that?

02:01:39.660 | - No, he recruited soldiers--

02:01:41.060 | - People for the SS.

02:01:42.060 | - He recruited soldiers in the Balkans, mostly Kosovars,

02:01:45.460 | which was disgusting.

02:01:46.940 | I have no doubt about that.

02:01:48.820 | But he had one--

02:01:49.660 | - He also wrote letters to foreign ministers--

02:01:51.100 | - He got one sentence--

02:01:51.940 | - Saying, "Don't let the Jews out."

02:01:53.540 | - I knew Rahul Hilberg.

02:01:54.380 | - Can I say, the Israeli foreign minister--

02:01:56.540 | - I knew Rahul Hilberg.

02:01:57.380 | - The Italian foreign minister--

02:01:58.220 | - I knew Rahul Hilberg.

02:01:59.060 | - Received letters from Husseini during the Holocaust.

02:02:01.060 | - One sentence--

02:02:01.900 | - "Don't let the Jews out, don't let the Jews out."

02:02:05.540 | I'm not saying he was a major architect of the Holocaust.

02:02:07.340 | - He wasn't even minor.

02:02:09.460 | - But if we're agreed--

02:02:10.300 | - One sentence--

02:02:11.180 | - If we're agreed that Haj Amin al-Husseini,

02:02:14.700 | the Mufti of Jerusalem,

02:02:17.220 | collaborated with the Nazis during World War II

02:02:19.780 | and actively sought their sponsorship,

02:02:22.540 | why is it irrelevant--

02:02:24.020 | - And probably wanted the destruction of European Jewry.

02:02:26.500 | - He probably wanted a lot of things.

02:02:28.300 | - Okay.

02:02:29.140 | - Okay?

02:02:30.300 | - If that's relevant,

02:02:31.780 | why is it irrelevant that a prime minister of Israel--

02:02:35.940 | - Not prime minister.

02:02:36.780 | In 1941, he wasn't prime minister of Israel.

02:02:40.180 | He was a leader of a very small terrorist group.

02:02:42.780 | - So do you consider--

02:02:43.620 | - The Nazis' terrorists by the mainstream of Zionism.

02:02:46.020 | - Do you consider it irrelevant that many years ago,

02:02:49.060 | Mahmoud Abbas wrote a doctoral thesis,

02:02:51.820 | which is basically tantamount--

02:02:52.660 | - It showed something about Mahmoud Abbas.

02:02:54.260 | - Okay, but--

02:02:55.100 | - But I didn't bring it up.

02:02:55.980 | You're the one who's bringing it up.

02:02:56.820 | - Yes, but you consider that relevant--

02:02:58.300 | - Belittling the Holocaust, that's what you're saying.

02:03:00.540 | The president of the Palestinian National Authority

02:03:04.100 | belittled the Holocaust and it didn't happen,

02:03:06.340 | or only a few Jews died.

02:03:07.180 | - I think that's a fair characterization of Mahmoud Abbas.

02:03:09.860 | - But I didn't bring it up.

02:03:10.820 | - I brought it up.

02:03:11.780 | - Yeah.

02:03:12.620 | - Okay, because my question is,

02:03:14.220 | then why is Shamir's antecedency relevant?

02:03:18.420 | - He was a terrorist leader of a very small marginal group.

02:03:22.220 | - Who became Israel--

02:03:23.060 | - Khadjam Min al-Husseini was the head

02:03:24.020 | of the movement at the time.

02:03:25.500 | - Also, but the point I'm bringing--

02:03:26.500 | - There's no comparison.

02:03:27.340 | - The point of bringing up Husseini's stuff

02:03:29.180 | wasn't to say that he was a great further of the Holocaust.

02:03:31.940 | It's that he might have been a great further

02:03:33.660 | in the prevention of Jews fleeing to go to Palestine

02:03:36.220 | to escape the Holocaust.

02:03:37.060 | - Yes, but the point I make--

02:03:37.900 | - That was the point.

02:03:38.740 | - And I explained why I think that's not an entirely

02:03:43.740 | accurate characterization,

02:03:47.180 | but then I wanted to make another point.

02:03:49.580 | If it's legitimate to bring up his role during World War II,

02:03:53.820 | why is it illegitimate to bring up a man

02:03:57.460 | who would become Israel's Speaker of Parliament,

02:04:00.940 | Foreign Minister--

02:04:01.780 | - 40 years hence, 40 years hence.

02:04:02.900 | - Why is it, and also--

02:04:05.100 | - He was a young terrorist.

02:04:05.940 | - And was also responsible for the murder

02:04:08.860 | of the United Nations' first international envoy,

02:04:13.140 | Bernadotte, Foki Bernadotte.

02:04:15.220 | Why is all that irrelevant?

02:04:16.580 | - I don't think anybody--

02:04:17.420 | - I don't understand.

02:04:18.260 | - I think that the reason why he was brought up

02:04:20.660 | was because Jewish people in this time period

02:04:23.500 | would have viewed it as there was a prevention of Jews

02:04:26.820 | leaving Europe because of the Palestinians

02:04:28.780 | pressuring the British to put a curb

02:04:30.740 | that 75,000 immigration limit, yes.

02:04:33.180 | But it's not about them furthering the Holocaust

02:04:36.020 | or being an architect, major or minor play in the Holocaust.

02:04:38.140 | - Well, actually--

02:04:38.980 | - We use a major play in that region.

02:04:40.020 | So if you wanted to bring up--

02:04:40.860 | - Actually, Eddie Morris made the specific claim

02:04:44.020 | that the Palestinians played an indirect role

02:04:46.660 | in the Holocaust.

02:04:47.500 | - The indirect role would have been the prevention

02:04:48.860 | of people escaping from--

02:04:50.140 | - Yes, and my response to that is,

02:04:54.100 | first of all, I disagree with that characterization.

02:04:57.460 | But second of all--

02:04:58.300 | - How can you disagree with that?

02:04:59.740 | They prevented, they forced the British

02:05:01.900 | to prevent emigration of Jews from Europe

02:05:04.180 | and reaching safe shores in Palestine.

02:05:06.260 | That's what they did.

02:05:07.100 | - Again, was--

02:05:07.940 | - And they knew that the Jews were being persecuted

02:05:10.060 | in Europe at the time.

02:05:10.900 | - Was Palestine the only spot of land on earth?

02:05:13.980 | - Yes, basically that was the problem.

02:05:15.580 | The Jews couldn't emigrate anywhere else.

02:05:17.020 | - What about your great friends in Britain,

02:05:19.460 | the architects of the Balfour Declaration?

02:05:21.500 | - By the late 1930s--

02:05:22.620 | - What about the United States?

02:05:23.460 | - They weren't happy to take in Jews,

02:05:24.980 | and the Americans weren't happy to take in Jews.

02:05:27.100 | - And why are Palestinians, who were not Europeans,

02:05:30.180 | who had zero role in the rise of Nazism,

02:05:33.500 | who had no relation to any of this,

02:05:35.420 | why are they somehow uniquely responsible

02:05:38.580 | for what happened in Europe and uniquely culpable?

02:05:40.500 | - They were helping to close the only safe haven for Jews.

02:05:42.820 | That's all.

02:05:43.660 | - Oh, really, the United States

02:05:44.500 | wasn't a potential safe haven.

02:05:47.260 | - The only one was Palestine.

02:05:49.700 | - At the time--

02:05:50.540 | - The United States had no room--

02:05:52.700 | - No, it did have room.

02:05:53.540 | - From the Atlantic to the Pacific for Jews.

02:05:55.460 | - It did have room, but it didn't want Jews.

02:05:56.300 | - So that wasn't the only safe haven.

02:05:59.100 | - This is something--

02:05:59.940 | - But shouldn't you be focusing your anger and outrage?

02:06:01.740 | - America should be blamed for not letting Jews in

02:06:04.340 | during the '30s and '40s.

02:06:05.180 | - They are blamed, but nobody blames them for the Holocaust.

02:06:08.260 | - Well, indirectly.

02:06:09.100 | - Indirectly.

02:06:09.940 | - I've never heard it said that Franklin Delano Roosevelt

02:06:13.020 | was indirectly responsible for the Holocaust.

02:06:15.580 | I never heard that.

02:06:17.020 | Now, maybe it's in Israeli literature

02:06:18.940 | because the Israelis have gone mad.

02:06:21.580 | Yes, your prime minister said the whole idea

02:06:24.820 | of the gas chambers came from the Mufti of Jerusalem.

02:06:28.500 | - That's nonsense.

02:06:29.340 | - Yeah, but he said it--

02:06:30.180 | - We all know that's nonsense.

02:06:31.020 | - But we also know that Netanyahu said it, correct?

02:06:34.220 | - Netanyahu says so many things which are absurd

02:06:36.340 | or simple lies. - And he happens to be

02:06:37.180 | the prime minister's longest-serving

02:06:38.740 | prime minister of Israel. - I cannot be responsible

02:06:39.580 | for them.

02:06:40.420 | I cannot be responsible for them.

02:06:41.260 | - You're not responsible for them,

02:06:42.820 | but it is relevant that he's the longest-serving

02:06:45.220 | prime minister of Israel.

02:06:46.420 | - Unfortunately, it says something about the Israeli public.

02:06:48.700 | - Yes, and he gets selected, not despite saying such things,

02:06:52.300 | but because he says such things.

02:06:53.700 | - His voters don't care about Khadim al-Husseini or Hitler.

02:06:57.020 | They know nothing about his voters.

02:06:59.380 | - You may well be right.

02:07:00.220 | - His base know nothing about anything,

02:07:02.540 | and he can say what he likes, and they'll say yes,

02:07:04.420 | or they don't care if he says these things.

02:07:06.220 | - You may well be right, but anyway,

02:07:09.300 | not to beat a dead horse, but I still don't understand.

02:07:12.620 | - That's not beating a dead horse, you're right.

02:07:14.700 | - I'll just conclude by saying I don't understand

02:07:16.700 | why the Mufti of Jerusalem is relevant.

02:07:18.940 | - He is relevant, he is relevant.

02:07:20.940 | - But Yishak Shamir is not relevant.

02:07:23.860 | - Because Shamir wasn't the head of the national movement.

02:07:26.420 | He represented 100 or 200 or 300 gunmen

02:07:29.580 | who were considered terrorists

02:07:30.860 | by the Zionist movement at the time.

02:07:33.100 | The fact that 30 years later, he becomes prime minister,

02:07:35.620 | that's the crux of history.

02:07:37.140 | - And his history is not--

02:07:37.980 | - But Khadim al-Husseini was the head

02:07:39.820 | of the Palestine Arab National Movement at the time.

02:07:42.780 | - Anyway, I--

02:07:43.620 | - What can you do?

02:07:44.460 | - We're speaking past each other.

02:07:45.620 | - We're not, I'm talking facts.

02:07:47.940 | - Let's move to the modern day and we'll return to history,

02:07:50.940 | maybe '67 and other important moments,

02:07:53.700 | but let's look to today, in the recent months.

02:07:56.740 | October 7th, let me ask sort of a pointed question.

02:08:01.540 | Was October 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel genocidal?

02:08:05.900 | Was it an act of ethnic cleansing?

02:08:08.420 | Just so we lay out the moral calculus

02:08:11.780 | that we are engaged in.

02:08:13.660 | I don't know, maybe you was--

02:08:14.980 | - The problem with October 7th is this.

02:08:18.660 | The Hamas fighters who invaded southern Israel

02:08:23.660 | were sent, ordered to murder, rape,

02:08:30.860 | and do all the nasty things that they did,

02:08:33.140 | and they killed some 1,200 Israelis that day

02:08:35.660 | and abducted, as we know, something like 250 civilian,

02:08:41.580 | mostly civilians, also some soldiers,

02:08:44.500 | took them back to Gaza, dungeons in Gaza.

02:08:47.660 | But they were motivated, not just by the words

02:08:50.620 | of their current leader in the Gaza Strip,

02:08:53.420 | but by their ideology, which is embedded in their charter

02:08:58.060 | from 1988, if I remember correctly.

02:09:01.060 | And that charter is genocidal.

02:09:03.460 | It says that the Jews must be eradicated, basically,

02:09:06.780 | from the land of Israel, from Palestine.

02:09:10.180 | The Jews are described there as sons of apes and pigs.

02:09:13.900 | The Jews are a base people, killers of prophets,

02:09:17.660 | and they should not exist in Palestine.

02:09:19.980 | It doesn't say that they necessarily should be murdered

02:09:22.340 | all around the world, the Hamas charter,

02:09:24.820 | but certainly the Jews should be eliminated from Palestine.

02:09:27.980 | And this is the driving ideology behind the massacre

02:09:32.980 | of the Jews on October 7th,

02:09:35.300 | which brought down on the Gaza Strip.

02:09:37.300 | And I think with the intention by the Hamas

02:09:40.340 | of the Israeli counter-offensive,

02:09:42.140 | 'cause they knew that that counter-offensive

02:09:44.580 | would result in many Palestinian dead

02:09:47.180 | because the Hamas fighters and their weaponry and so on

02:09:51.260 | were embedded in the population in Gaza.

02:09:53.740 | And they hoped to benefit from this

02:09:55.860 | in the eyes of world public opinion,

02:09:57.740 | as Israel chased these Hamas people

02:09:59.980 | and their ammunition dumps and so on,

02:10:01.900 | and killed lots of Palestinian civilians in the process.

02:10:05.020 | All of this was understood by Sinwar,

02:10:07.860 | by the head of the Hamas, and he strived for that.

02:10:10.660 | But initially, he wanted to kill as many Jews as he could

02:10:13.660 | in the border areas around the Gaza Strip.

02:10:18.220 | - I'll respond directly to the points you made,

02:10:21.420 | and then I'll leave it to Norm

02:10:23.740 | to bring in the historical context.

02:10:26.500 | That Hamas charter is from the '90s, I think.

02:10:30.620 | - 1988. - 1988.

02:10:32.340 | So it's from the '80s.

02:10:34.100 | - Um, I think your characterization of that charter

02:10:38.140 | as antisemitic is indisputable.

02:10:42.620 | I think your characterization of that charter

02:10:47.780 | as genocidal is off the mark.

02:10:51.580 | - It's implicit.

02:10:52.660 | - And more importantly, that charter has been superseded

02:10:57.660 | by a new charter.

02:10:59.180 | It in fact has been, well, there is a--

02:11:01.900 | - There is no new charter.

02:11:02.820 | - There is a charter. - There is an explanation,

02:11:04.540 | a statement they made-- - 2018,

02:11:05.980 | a political statement. - In 2000 and something.

02:11:07.620 | - '18. - 2018.

02:11:09.220 | Supposedly clarifying things which are in the charter,

02:11:12.260 | but it doesn't actually step back

02:11:13.940 | from what the charter says.

02:11:15.260 | Eliminate Israel, eliminate the Jews from the land of Israel.

02:11:17.900 | - And 2018, the Hamas charter,

02:11:21.620 | if we look at the current version of the charter--

02:11:23.860 | - It's not a called-to-charter.

02:11:24.900 | - Whether you-- - You're calling it a charter.

02:11:26.340 | It wasn't.

02:11:27.180 | The only thing called-to-charter is what was issued

02:11:28.940 | in 1988 by Yassin himself.

02:11:30.900 | - Anyway, it makes a clear distinction

02:11:33.740 | between Jews and Zionists in 2018.

02:11:36.980 | Now, you can choose to dismiss it, believe it,

02:11:39.980 | it's sincere, it's insincere, whatever.

02:11:43.220 | - Insincere is probably the right word.

02:11:44.980 | - Secondly, I'm really unfamiliar with fighters

02:11:49.980 | who consult these kinds of documents before they go on--

02:11:53.860 | - No, they're brought up on this in their education system.

02:11:56.180 | In the kindergarten, they're told, kill the Jews.

02:11:58.900 | They practice with make-believe guns and uniforms

02:12:02.580 | when they're five years old in the kindergartens

02:12:04.820 | of the Hamas in Gaza. - At the instruction

02:12:06.420 | of the Commissioner General of UNRWA, right?

02:12:08.640 | - I didn't say that.

02:12:09.740 | I said the Hamas has kindergartens and summer camps

02:12:12.980 | in which they train to kill Jews,

02:12:15.180 | children six and five and six.

02:12:16.660 | - Secondly, you keep saying Jews,

02:12:19.820 | to which I would respond--

02:12:20.940 | - They use the word Jews.

02:12:21.900 | - To which I would respond that Hamas does not have a record

02:12:25.900 | of deliberately targeting Jews who are not Israelis.

02:12:30.340 | And in fact, it also doesn't have a record

02:12:33.000 | of deliberately targeting either Jews or Israelis

02:12:36.180 | outside Israel and Palestine.

02:12:38.700 | So all this talk of--

02:12:41.840 | - Unlike the Hezbollah, which has targeted Jews outside--

02:12:45.300 | - We're talking about October 7th in Hamas.

02:12:48.580 | If you'd also like to speak about Hezbollah,

02:12:51.100 | let's get to that separately, if you don't mind.

02:12:55.800 | So again, genocidal, well,

02:13:00.800 | if that term is going to be discussed,

02:13:04.680 | my first response would be,

02:13:06.920 | let's talk about potentially genocidal actions

02:13:10.640 | against Israelis rather than against Jews

02:13:13.560 | for the reasons that I just mentioned.

02:13:15.780 | And again, I find this constant conflation

02:13:18.800 | of Jews-Israel-Zionism to be a bit disturbing.

02:13:23.560 | Secondly, I think there are quite a few indications

02:13:28.560 | in the factual record that raise serious questions

02:13:34.400 | about the accusations of the genocidal intent

02:13:38.640 | and genocidal practice of what happened on October 7th.

02:13:41.980 | And my final point would be,

02:13:44.680 | I don't think I should take your word for it.

02:13:47.220 | I don't think you should take my word for it.

02:13:49.520 | I think what we need here is a proper,

02:13:52.840 | independent, international investigation.

02:13:55.680 | And the reason we need that-- - Of what?

02:13:57.360 | - Of genocide during this conflict,

02:13:59.800 | whether by Palestinians on October 7th or Israel thereafter.

02:14:04.800 | The reason that we need such an investigation

02:14:08.460 | is because Hamas is, there won't be any hearings

02:14:13.280 | on what Hamas did on October 7th

02:14:15.560 | at the International Court of Justice

02:14:18.260 | because the International Convention

02:14:21.040 | on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

02:14:24.360 | deals only with states and not with movements.

02:14:27.800 | I think the International Criminal Court

02:14:30.040 | and specifically its current prosecutor,

02:14:32.560 | Karim Khan, lacks any and all credibility.

02:14:35.440 | He's been an absolute failure at his job.

02:14:38.200 | He's just been sitting on his backside

02:14:40.000 | for years on this file.

02:14:41.920 | And I think I would point out that Hamas has called

02:14:46.200 | for independent investigations of all these allegations.

02:14:51.200 | Israel has categorically rejected

02:14:53.440 | any international investigation,

02:14:55.480 | of course fully supported by the United States.

02:14:58.700 | And I think what is required

02:15:01.920 | is to have credible investigations of these things

02:15:06.380 | because I don't think you're going to convince me,

02:15:08.640 | I don't think I'm going to convince you.

02:15:10.680 | And this is two people sitting across the table

02:15:13.640 | from each other. - No, but there's certain things

02:15:15.060 | you don't even have to investigate.

02:15:16.640 | You know how many citizens, civilians died

02:15:19.740 | in the October 7th assault. - Yes, but that's not--

02:15:22.120 | - You know that there are lots of allegations of rape.

02:15:24.160 | I don't know how persuaded you are of those.

02:15:26.640 | They did find bodies without heads, which is--

02:15:30.060 | - There were no beheadings. - Islamic,

02:15:32.080 | there were some beheadings apparently.

02:15:34.080 | - The Israelis didn't even claim that

02:15:36.120 | in the document they submitted before the ICJ.

02:15:39.200 | Go read what your government submitted.

02:15:41.200 | It never mentioned beheadings.

02:15:43.620 | - Well, as far as I know-- - I read it.

02:15:45.080 | - There were some people who were beheaded, but then--

02:15:46.480 | - We could bring it up right now.

02:15:47.320 | - You also denied that there were rapes there.

02:15:49.680 | - I didn't deny, I said I've not seen

02:15:51.720 | convincing evidence that confirms it.

02:15:54.320 | I've said that from day one,

02:15:56.160 | and I'll say it today four and a half months later.

02:15:58.640 | - Do you know that they killed eight or 900 civilians

02:16:01.140 | in the assault? - Absolutely.

02:16:02.280 | That seems to me indisputable.

02:16:04.200 | - Oh, okay, well, I'm glad that you're

02:16:05.880 | questioning something. - I've said that,

02:16:06.800 | I've said that from day one.

02:16:08.760 | - Well, to be clear, you haven't.

02:16:09.840 | You did a debate, I don't remember the talk show,

02:16:12.040 | but you seem to imply that there was a lot of crossfire

02:16:13.940 | and that it might have been the IDF

02:16:14.940 | that had killed a lot of-- - I said that there is

02:16:17.620 | no question, because the names were published in Haaretz,

02:16:21.760 | there is no question that roughly of the 1,200 people killed,

02:16:26.120 | 800 of them were civilians.

02:16:28.400 | I see-- - 850.

02:16:29.240 | - 850, fine.

02:16:30.580 | So I never said that, but then I said,

02:16:32.680 | no, we don't know exactly how they were killed,

02:16:35.280 | but 800 civilians killed, 850, no question there.

02:16:40.360 | And I also said, on repeated occasions,

02:16:43.960 | there cannot be any doubt, in my opinion,

02:16:46.320 | as of now, with the available evidence,

02:16:48.700 | that Hamas was responsible for significant atrocities,

02:16:52.000 | and I made sure to include the plural.

02:16:54.280 | - There's a lot of tricky language being employed here.

02:16:55.860 | Do you think of the 800 of 50?

02:16:56.700 | - There's nothing tricky, it's called attaching value

02:17:00.000 | to words and not talking like a motor mouth.

02:17:03.960 | I am very careful about qualifying,

02:17:07.320 | because that's what language is about.

02:17:09.400 | - That's great, then let me just ask a clarifying question.

02:17:11.720 | Do you firmly believe that the majority

02:17:13.280 | of the 850 civilians were killed by Hamas?

02:17:15.480 | - My view is, even if it were half,

02:17:19.120 | 400 is a huge number, by any reckoning.

02:17:24.120 | - Why? - Okay, wait, you didn't--

02:17:25.680 | - I said, even if-- - Wait, wait, wait, wait.

02:17:27.560 | - Because Benny, because Professor Morris,

02:17:31.760 | I don't know, I agree with Muin Rabbani.

02:17:37.120 | I'm not sure if he concedes the 400.

02:17:39.960 | I'll say-- - Why 400?

02:17:41.520 | - Because I have-- - Who ever thought

02:17:42.520 | up the 400? - Right, as I said--

02:17:44.360 | - 800 of the 850 slaughtered by Hamas.

02:17:47.560 | - No, I don't know-- - It may be a couple

02:17:49.080 | of individuals were killed in this very action.

02:17:51.600 | - I don't know.

02:17:53.360 | - You're saying from day one-- - Professor Morris.

02:17:54.800 | - You believe this particular thing--

02:17:55.640 | - Professor Morris. - And you clearly don't.

02:17:56.840 | You clearly don't believe this thing.

02:17:57.680 | - I said from day one, I-- - You said people died.

02:18:01.600 | That's not controversial. - Wait, hold on, hold on.

02:18:04.000 | - That's not controversial. - Mr. Bonnell,

02:18:05.880 | Mr. Bonnell, I attach value to words.

02:18:10.080 | - Yes, you've said that.

02:18:10.920 | If you value them, you talk about people so much.

02:18:12.680 | - Mr. Bonnell, please slow down the speech

02:18:15.680 | and attempt to listen.

02:18:17.680 | When I was explicitly asked by Piers Morgan,

02:18:21.440 | I said there can be no question

02:18:24.280 | that Hamas committed atrocities--

02:18:27.000 | - I've heard this, yes. - On October 7th.

02:18:29.480 | If you want me to pin down a number, I can't do that.

02:18:34.040 | - I didn't ask you to pin down a number.

02:18:35.440 | - You can listen to what I'm saying.

02:18:36.280 | - You didn't ask me? - No, my question is,

02:18:37.800 | I'll ask, I'll ask a very precise--

02:18:39.280 | - Sorry, excuse me. - It's a very,

02:18:41.480 | it's a very easy question. - If I understood

02:18:42.840 | your question correctly.

02:18:43.680 | - My question is, do you think the majority of the people

02:18:45.440 | that were killed on October 7th, the civilians,

02:18:47.160 | were killed by Hamas, or are we subscribing to the idea

02:18:49.160 | that the IDF killed hundreds, 400 or 500--

02:18:51.440 | - No, but let me explain why that's a difficult question

02:18:54.040 | to answer.

02:18:55.160 | The total number of civilians killed was 800, 850.

02:19:00.160 | We know that Hamas is responsible

02:19:04.480 | probably for the majority of those killings.

02:19:07.160 | We also know that there were killings by Islamic Jihad.

02:19:12.160 | We also know--

02:19:13.160 | - Oh, we're bunching together the Islamic Jihad and the Hamas.

02:19:16.000 | That's splitting hairs now. - His question was specifically

02:19:18.040 | about-- - No, but he means,

02:19:18.880 | he means the raiders. - I'm speaking in opposition

02:19:21.920 | to the conspiracy theory that people like,

02:19:24.960 | do you prefer Norm or Professor Frankelstein,

02:19:27.440 | or what do you, I don't know what your,

02:19:28.720 | how do you prefer to be addressed?

02:19:29.560 | - Well, it's not a conspiracy theory because it's--

02:19:30.400 | - Well, the conspiracy theory is the idea

02:19:32.080 | that the IDF killed the majority of them.

02:19:33.840 | - It's not a conspiracy theory.

02:19:34.680 | - And then there's also a theory that,

02:19:37.080 | as Norm pointed out on the show that he was on,

02:19:38.760 | that he thought that it was very strange

02:19:40.640 | that given how reputable Israeli services are

02:19:44.240 | when it comes to sending ambulances, retrieving bodies,

02:19:47.000 | he thought it was very strange that that number

02:19:48.600 | was continually being adjusted.

02:19:49.840 | - And do you know why-- - So when you say that

02:19:51.120 | in combination with, well, I'm not sure

02:19:53.080 | how many were killed by Hamas--

02:19:53.920 | - Well, do you know why the number,

02:19:54.960 | do you know why the number went down?

02:19:57.220 | The number went down because the Israeli authorities

02:20:00.600 | were in possession of 200 corpses

02:20:03.960 | that were burned to a crisp that they assumed

02:20:07.480 | were Israelis who had been killed on October 7th.

02:20:12.480 | They later determined that these were,

02:20:15.560 | in fact, Palestinian fighters.

02:20:18.000 | Now, how does a Palestinian fighter get burned to a crisp?

02:20:21.600 | - No, you're mixing two things.

02:20:23.040 | Some of the bodies they weren't able to identify,

02:20:25.640 | and eventually they ruled that some of them

02:20:28.440 | were actually Arab marauders rather than Israeli victims.

02:20:32.920 | Some, a few of them also, of the Jews,

02:20:35.040 | were burnt to a crisp, and it took them time

02:20:37.360 | to work this out, and they came out initially

02:20:39.320 | with a slightly higher figure, 1,400 dead,

02:20:42.160 | and eventually reduced it to 1,200 dead Israelis.

02:20:45.320 | - And the reason is that a proportion

02:20:47.440 | of Israeli civilians killed on October 7th,

02:20:49.800 | I don't believe it was a majority.

02:20:51.800 | We don't know how many.

02:20:53.820 | Some were killed in crossfire.

02:20:56.000 | Some were killed by Israeli shell fire,

02:21:00.560 | helicopter fire, and so on,

02:21:03.040 | and the majority were killed by Palestinians,

02:21:07.760 | and of that majority, we don't know.

02:21:11.440 | I mean, again, I understood your question

02:21:13.360 | as referring specifically to Hamas,

02:21:15.160 | which is why I tried to answer it that way,

02:21:17.480 | but if you meant generically Palestinians, yes.

02:21:21.040 | If you mean specifically Hamas,

02:21:23.040 | we don't have a clear breakdown

02:21:24.640 | of how many were-- - No, I don't mean

02:21:25.480 | specifically Hamas. - Okay.

02:21:26.320 | - But I just think when you use the word some,

02:21:27.600 | that's doing a lot of heavy lifting.

02:21:28.880 | - Who used some?

02:21:30.000 | - That's fine, but some can mean anywhere

02:21:31.640 | from 1% to 49%.

02:21:33.440 | - But we don't know. - Who used some?

02:21:34.960 | - So the numbers here and the details

02:21:36.800 | are interesting and important,

02:21:38.320 | almost from a legal perspective,

02:21:39.640 | but if we zoom out the moral perspective,

02:21:43.240 | are Palestinians from Gaza justified

02:21:45.600 | in violent resistance?

02:21:47.480 | - Well, Palestinians have the right to resistance.

02:21:51.800 | Palestinian, that right includes the right

02:21:54.660 | to armed resistance.

02:21:56.560 | At the same time, armed resistance

02:21:59.440 | is subject to the laws of war,

02:22:02.360 | and there are very clear regulations

02:22:04.440 | that separate legitimate acts of armed resistance

02:22:08.920 | from acts of armed resistance that are not legitimate.

02:22:12.920 | - And the attacks of October 7th,

02:22:14.960 | where did they land for you?

02:22:16.240 | - There's been almost exclusive focus

02:22:19.800 | on the attacks on civilian population centers

02:22:23.800 | and the killings of civilians on October 7th.

02:22:27.880 | What is much less discussed to the point of amnesia

02:22:34.320 | is that there were very extensive attacks

02:22:39.320 | on Israeli military and intelligence facilities

02:22:42.880 | on October 7th.

02:22:44.480 | I would make a very clear distinction between those two.

02:22:48.700 | And secondly, I'm not sure that there was

02:22:53.740 | that I would characterize the efforts

02:22:58.140 | by Palestinians on October 7th

02:23:02.380 | to seize Israeli territory

02:23:05.260 | and Israeli population centers

02:23:07.700 | as in and of themselves illegitimate.

02:23:11.140 | - You mean attacking Israeli civilians is legitimate?

02:23:13.700 | - No, no, no, that's not what I said.

02:23:15.540 | - I didn't understand what you said.

02:23:16.380 | - I think what you had on October 7th

02:23:19.540 | was an effort by Hamas to seize Israeli territory

02:23:23.260 | and population centers.

02:23:24.100 | - And kill civilians.

02:23:25.140 | - That's not what I said.

02:23:26.680 | What I said is I think I would not describe

02:23:31.680 | the effort to seize Israeli territory

02:23:34.340 | as in and of itself illegitimate,

02:23:37.100 | as a separate issue from the killing of Israeli civilians

02:23:41.220 | where in those cases

02:23:42.940 | where they had been deliberately targeted.

02:23:44.920 | That's very clearly illegitimate.

02:23:46.180 | - Whole families were slaughtered in Kibbutz.

02:23:48.060 | - But I'm making--

02:23:48.900 | - But many of them left wingers, incidentally,

02:23:51.580 | who helped Palestinians go to hospitals in Israel and so on.

02:23:55.340 | - Again--

02:23:56.180 | - Even drove Palestinian cancer patients

02:23:59.020 | to hospitals in Israeli--

02:23:59.860 | - Again, I'm making a distinction here.

02:24:01.420 | - But you don't seem to be very condemnatory

02:24:03.220 | of what the Hamas did.

02:24:04.500 | - Well, I don't do selective condemnation.

02:24:06.900 | - I'm not talking about selective.

02:24:07.720 | - I don't do selective outrage.

02:24:08.560 | - I'm talking about specific condemnation

02:24:09.860 | of this specific assault on civilians.

02:24:11.700 | - Well, you know what it is.

02:24:12.980 | - I would, for example, condemn Israeli assaults

02:24:16.860 | on civilians, deliberate assaults on civilians.

02:24:19.580 | I would condemn them, but you're not doing that

02:24:21.260 | with the Hamas.

02:24:22.100 | - You know what the issue is?

02:24:23.820 | - What?

02:24:24.660 | - I've been speaking in public now,

02:24:26.700 | I would say since the late 1980s,

02:24:28.380 | and interviewed and so on.

02:24:30.220 | I have never on one occasion ever been asked

02:24:34.260 | to condemn any Israeli act.

02:24:37.040 | When I've been in group discussions,

02:24:39.880 | those supporting the Israeli action or perspective,

02:24:43.140 | I have never encountered an example

02:24:45.860 | where these individuals are asked

02:24:48.420 | to condemn what Israel is doing.

02:24:50.980 | The demand and obligation of condemnation

02:24:55.460 | is exclusively applied, in my personal experience

02:25:00.060 | over decades, is exclusively applied to Palestinians.

02:25:03.940 | - No, this is not true.

02:25:04.780 | Israel is condemned day and night

02:25:06.500 | on every television channel, and has been

02:25:09.900 | for the last decades.

02:25:10.740 | - I'm telling you about a personal experience

02:25:12.500 | lasting decades.

02:25:13.500 | - You said, quote, I'm trying to quote what you just said.

02:25:18.500 | - I shouldn't have said anything at any point.

02:25:20.820 | - You should say, Professor Morris.

02:25:22.820 | - Yes.

02:25:23.660 | - You just said, I would condemn

02:25:26.860 | any time Israel deliberately attacks civilians, okay?

02:25:31.860 | The problem, Professor Morris, is over and over again,

02:25:38.220 | you claim in the face of overwhelming evidence

02:25:44.100 | that they didn't attack civilians.

02:25:48.180 | - That's not true, I've said Israel has attacked civilians.

02:25:50.540 | - Professor Morris.

02:25:51.380 | - In Kyiv, Israel attacked civilians.

02:25:52.580 | - Right, right, right, Professor Morris.

02:25:53.420 | - And I've written extensively about it.

02:25:54.700 | - Okay, I know that.

02:25:55.540 | - In Qatar, Qasem, they killed civilians,

02:25:57.540 | and I've written about it.

02:25:58.380 | - And now let's--

02:25:59.220 | - So you're just eliminating, you're selecting.

02:26:01.900 | - Okay.

02:26:02.740 | - As Steven says, you cherry-pick.

02:26:04.500 | - If I were you--

02:26:05.340 | - Before you do--

02:26:06.180 | - You cherry-pick.

02:26:07.000 | - Okay, let's fast forward.

02:26:07.840 | When you were an adult, what did you say

02:26:10.500 | about the 1982 Lebanon War?

02:26:13.200 | - What did I say?

02:26:15.140 | - You don't remember?

02:26:16.180 | Okay, allow me.

02:26:17.980 | - Uh-oh.

02:26:18.820 | - Okay.

02:26:20.260 | - So, it happens that I was not at all by any,

02:26:25.260 | I had no interest in the Israel-Palestine conflict

02:26:28.460 | as a young man until the--

02:26:30.580 | - This is true.

02:26:31.420 | - Until the 1982 Lebanon War.

02:26:34.220 | - Yeah, you lost the passage.

02:26:36.140 | - I'll find it.

02:26:36.980 | - Okay, real quick, while he's searching for that--

02:26:38.140 | - Yeah, allow me, that's good.

02:26:38.980 | - You bring up something that's really important

02:26:40.540 | that a lot of people don't draw a distinction between,

02:26:42.740 | in that there is just causes for war,

02:26:45.220 | and there is just ways to act within a war,

02:26:47.260 | and these two things, principally,

02:26:48.660 | do have a distinction from one another.

02:26:50.660 | However, while I appreciate the recognition

02:26:52.980 | of the distinction, the idea that the cause for war

02:26:56.820 | that Hamas was engaged in, I don't believe,

02:26:59.500 | if we look at their actions in war

02:27:01.240 | or the statements that they've made,

02:27:02.160 | it doesn't seem like it had to do

02:27:03.100 | with territorial acquisition.

02:27:04.860 | - No, no, no, no, the point--

02:27:06.660 | - Like taking land back.

02:27:07.500 | - No, the point I was making was,

02:27:09.360 | what was Hamas trying to achieve militarily on October 7th?

02:27:16.420 | And I was pointing out that the focus has been very much

02:27:20.700 | on Hamas attacks on civilians and atrocities and so on,

02:27:25.460 | and I'm not saying those things should be ignored.

02:27:28.260 | What I'm saying is that what's getting lost in the shuffle

02:27:32.540 | is that there were extensive attacks

02:27:35.300 | on military and intelligence facilities,

02:27:38.660 | and as far as the, let's say,

02:27:42.100 | the other aspects are concerned,

02:27:44.600 | because I think either you or Lex asked me

02:27:47.580 | about the legitimacy of these attacks.

02:27:49.720 | I said, I'm unclear whether efforts by Hamas

02:27:54.720 | to seize Israeli population centers in and of themselves

02:28:00.580 | are illegitimate, as opposed to actions

02:28:04.580 | that either deliberately targeted Israeli civilians,

02:28:09.240 | or actions that should reasonably have been expressed

02:28:14.280 | expected to result in the killings of Israeli civilians.

02:28:18.060 | Those strike me as, by definition, illegitimate,

02:28:20.800 | and I want to be very clear about that.

02:28:23.940 | I have--

02:28:24.780 | - Illegitimate means you condemn them.

02:28:26.660 | - Illegitimate means they are not legitimate.

02:28:29.020 | I have a problem--

02:28:30.660 | - Condemning your side, yes.

02:28:31.780 | - No, not condemning my side.

02:28:33.380 | I have a problem with selective outrage,

02:28:35.860 | and I have a problem with selective condemnation,

02:28:38.020 | and as I explained to you a few minutes ago,

02:28:41.100 | in my decades of appearing in public and being interviewed,

02:28:46.100 | I have never seen, I've never been asked

02:28:50.480 | to condemn an Israeli action.

02:28:52.240 | I've never been asked for a moral judgment

02:28:54.840 | on an Israeli action.

02:28:56.800 | Exclusive request for condemnation

02:28:59.440 | has to do with what Palestinians do,

02:29:01.200 | and just as importantly, I'm sure if you watch BBC or CNN,

02:29:06.200 | when is the last time an Israeli spokesperson

02:29:09.640 | has been asked to condemn an Israeli act?

02:29:12.860 | I've never seen it.

02:29:14.420 | - I don't think we condemn the Arab side either, though,

02:29:15.860 | right?

02:29:16.700 | I don't think there was any condemnation.

02:29:17.540 | - No, but now that we're talking about Israeli victims,

02:29:20.420 | all of a sudden, morality is central.

02:29:22.540 | - Well, I think the reason why it comes up

02:29:23.740 | is because there's no shortage

02:29:24.860 | of international condemnation for Israel.

02:29:26.620 | As Norm will point out a million times,

02:29:28.300 | that there are 50 billion UN resolutions,

02:29:30.100 | you've got Amnesty International,

02:29:31.620 | you've got multiple bodies of the UN,

02:29:33.340 | you've got now this case for the ICJ,

02:29:34.640 | so there's no question of if there's condemnation for Israel.

02:29:36.420 | - But sorry, if I can interrupt you,

02:29:37.740 | in 1948, the entire world stood behind

02:29:41.680 | the establishment of a Jewish state,

02:29:44.640 | and the entire world--

02:29:45.480 | - No, no, except the Arab states and the Muslim states.

02:29:47.520 | - Well--

02:29:48.360 | - Not the entire world.

02:29:49.180 | - Okay, but I think you know what I mean by that.

02:29:50.960 | - The Western democracies, that's what you're saying.

02:29:53.000 | - Well, and then also, just my quick question--

02:29:53.840 | - Western democracies supported the establishment of Israel.

02:29:56.240 | - My quick question was, you said that you believe that,

02:29:58.080 | this is a very short one, you don't have to,

02:29:59.000 | it's just, you think that there's an argument to be made

02:30:02.080 | that the people in Gaza,

02:30:02.920 | that Hamas and Islamic Jihad, whoever participated,

02:30:05.000 | had a just cause for war,

02:30:06.520 | maybe they didn't do it in the correct way,

02:30:07.960 | but they maybe had a just cause for war.

02:30:09.880 | - I don't think there's a maybe there.

02:30:11.080 | The Palestinians--

02:30:11.920 | - Okay, you think they absolutely had a just cause for war.

02:30:12.960 | Do you think that Israel has a just cause

02:30:14.840 | for Operation Swords of Iron?

02:30:16.360 | - No, of course not.

02:30:17.540 | - Okay.

02:30:18.380 | - All right.

02:30:19.200 | - You can say your quote.

02:30:20.080 | - Okay, first of all, on this issue of double standards,

02:30:25.080 | which is the one that irks or irritates Muin,

02:30:30.280 | you said that you are not a person of double standards,

02:30:36.100 | unlike people like Muin.

02:30:38.960 | You hold high a single standard

02:30:40.920 | and you condemn deliberate Israeli attacks on--

02:30:45.920 | - Civilians.

02:30:47.040 | - On civilians. - When they occurred, yeah.

02:30:48.680 | - And I would say that's true for the period up till 1967,

02:30:53.680 | and I think it's accurate,

02:30:58.640 | your account of the first Intifada.

02:31:02.220 | There, it seems to me, you were in conformity

02:31:05.400 | with most mainstream accounts,

02:31:08.160 | and the case of the first Intifada,

02:31:10.920 | you also used, surprisingly,

02:31:13.520 | you used Arab human rights sources like Al-Haq,

02:31:17.180 | which I think Muin worked for during the first Intifada.

02:31:21.400 | That's true.

02:31:22.240 | But then, something very strange happens.

02:31:27.020 | So let's illustrate it.

02:31:28.500 | - Wait, does something strange which happened

02:31:30.280 | is the Arabs rejected--

02:31:31.500 | - Okay, wait.

02:31:32.340 | - Peace offers, that's what happened.

02:31:34.100 | - By accepting the Oslo Agreement.

02:31:35.620 | - Yeah.

02:31:36.460 | - By rejecting, he's talking about Camp David and Tata.

02:31:39.100 | - If we have time, I know the record very well,

02:31:43.380 | I'd be very happy to go through it with you,

02:31:45.700 | but let's get to those double standards.

02:31:48.380 | So, this is what you have to say

02:31:50.420 | about Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982.

02:31:54.500 | You said Israel was reluctant to harm civilians,

02:32:00.380 | sought to avoid casualties on both sides,

02:32:05.380 | and took care not to harm Lebanese

02:32:11.280 | and Palestinian civilians.

02:32:14.700 | You then went on to acknowledge

02:32:17.260 | the massive use of IDF firepower against civilians

02:32:21.900 | during the siege of Beirut,

02:32:24.300 | which traumatized Israeli society.

02:32:27.540 | Morris quickly answers the caveat that Israel, quote,

02:32:31.660 | tried to pinpoint military targets,

02:32:36.220 | but inevitably many civilians were hit.

02:32:39.860 | That's your description of the Lebanon War.

02:32:42.860 | As I say, that's when I first got involved in the conflict.

02:32:47.540 | I am a voracious reader.

02:32:50.300 | I read everything on the Lebanon War.

02:32:53.220 | I would say there's not a single account

02:32:56.620 | of the Lebanon War in which the estimates are

02:33:00.660 | between 15 and 20,000 Palestinian Lebanese

02:33:05.100 | were killed, overwhelmingly civilians,

02:33:07.980 | the biggest bloodletting until the current Gaza genocide,

02:33:12.380 | biggest bloodletting.

02:33:16.580 | I would say I can't think of a single mainstream account

02:33:21.360 | that remotely approximates what you just said.

02:33:26.220 | So leaving aside, I can name the books,

02:33:29.900 | voluminous, huge volumes.

02:33:32.540 | I'll just take one example.

02:33:34.700 | Now you will remember,

02:33:35.940 | 'cause I think you served in Lebanon in '82.

02:33:38.060 | Am I correct on that?

02:33:39.560 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

02:33:40.740 | So you will remember that Dov Yarmia kept the war diary.

02:33:44.780 | So with your permission,

02:33:47.420 | allow me to describe what he wrote during his diary.

02:33:52.460 | So he writes, "The war machine of the IDF

02:33:57.020 | is galloping and trampling over the conquered territory,

02:34:01.660 | demonstrating a total insensitivity

02:34:06.660 | to the fate of the Arabs who are found in its path.

02:34:10.760 | A PLO-run hospital suffered a direct hit.

02:34:15.420 | Thousands of refugees are returning to the city

02:34:18.820 | when they arrive at their homes,

02:34:20.980 | many of which have been destroyed or damaged.

02:34:23.800 | You hear their cries of pain

02:34:26.340 | and their howls over the deaths of their loved ones.

02:34:30.140 | The air is permeated with the smell of corpses.

02:34:33.940 | Destruction and death are continuing."

02:34:36.500 | - Point made.

02:34:37.340 | - Does that--

02:34:38.180 | - The point you're making, actually--

02:34:39.020 | - Does that sound like your description

02:34:40.580 | of the Lebanon war?

02:34:42.140 | - Forget my descriptions.

02:34:43.380 | - Forget it?

02:34:44.220 | - The point you're making--

02:34:45.060 | - Words are in print.

02:34:46.020 | We can't just forget them.

02:34:46.860 | - No, let me just finish my sentence.

02:34:48.660 | The point you're making,

02:34:50.380 | which you somehow forget,

02:34:52.140 | is that there are Israelis

02:34:53.460 | who strongly criticize their own side

02:34:55.940 | and describe how Israelis are doing things

02:34:58.580 | which they regard as immoral.

02:35:00.400 | You don't find that on the Arab side.

02:35:02.740 | - I'm talking about you, Mr. Morris.

02:35:05.580 | I'm not talking about Dev Jarmiyahu.

02:35:07.580 | I'm talking about you, the historian.

02:35:10.500 | How did you depict the Lebanon war?

02:35:12.660 | - 'Cause I believe that the Israeli military

02:35:15.220 | tried to avoid committing a civilian casualty.

02:35:17.740 | - So, Dev Jarmiyahu--

02:35:18.580 | - And I think they've tried to do it in Gaza now.

02:35:20.860 | - All the attacks by Robert Fisk in Pity the Nation.

02:35:24.180 | - Robert Fisk is an anti-Zionist journalist.

02:35:27.940 | - I know, I know.

02:35:28.780 | - Has always been.

02:35:29.600 | - So, that's why you can say with such confidence

02:35:34.600 | that you don't condemn deliberate Israeli attacks

02:35:38.900 | on civilians.

02:35:39.740 | - There weren't any.

02:35:40.580 | - Because there weren't any.

02:35:41.400 | - No, I didn't say there weren't any.

02:35:42.380 | - Yeah, you didn't.

02:35:43.220 | - And you agreed that I have condemned Israeli attacks

02:35:45.460 | on civilians.

02:35:46.300 | - Yes, there are.

02:35:47.140 | - I never quarrel with facts.

02:35:49.780 | Your description of the 1982 war is so shocking,

02:35:54.780 | it makes my innards writhe.

02:35:57.980 | And then your description of the second intifada,

02:36:01.660 | your description of defensive shield.

02:36:04.280 | - When the Arabs were bombing--

02:36:05.120 | - They are worse, they were worse than apologetics.

02:36:08.700 | - When Arab suicide bombers were destroying Jews

02:36:12.660 | in masses in buses and in restaurants.

02:36:15.260 | That's the second intifada.

02:36:17.060 | - You remember that.

02:36:17.900 | - You can try--

02:36:18.720 | - Suicide bombers in Jerusalem's buses and restaurants.

02:36:21.700 | - I am completely aware of that.

02:36:23.620 | - Yes, you will.

02:36:24.460 | - But if you forgot the numbers.

02:36:26.260 | - I don't forget.

02:36:27.100 | - It was three to one.

02:36:29.340 | The number--

02:36:30.180 | - They killed mostly armed Palestinian government.

02:36:33.140 | - That's what you say in your book.

02:36:34.660 | - That's what I say.

02:36:35.500 | That's what I say.

02:36:36.340 | - But that's not what Amnesty International said.

02:36:38.780 | That's not what Human Rights Watch said.

02:36:40.580 | - I don't remember what they said.

02:36:41.860 | - I do.

02:36:42.940 | - No, no.

02:36:43.780 | - That's not what them.

02:36:44.600 | - I don't know whether their figures are right.

02:36:45.820 | - My figures are right.

02:36:46.940 | - Listen, listen.

02:36:47.780 | - In the second intifada--

02:36:48.600 | - Professor Morris.

02:36:49.440 | - Some 4,000--

02:36:50.280 | - Professor Morris.

02:36:51.100 | - Palestinians were killed.

02:36:51.940 | - Professor Morris.

02:36:52.780 | - Most of them armed people and the Israelis--

02:36:55.660 | - That's a complete--

02:36:56.500 | - A thousand Israelis were killed.

02:36:57.660 | Almost all of them civilians.

02:36:59.620 | - Professor Morris, fantasy,

02:37:01.860 | but I'm not gonna argue with here.

02:37:03.580 | Here's a simple challenge.

02:37:05.620 | You said not to look at the camera.

02:37:07.120 | - Sometimes.

02:37:07.960 | - Scares the people.

02:37:08.780 | I'll make the open challenge.

02:37:09.980 | - You are going to scare them.

02:37:11.300 | - No, Professor Morris.

02:37:13.380 | - Open challenge.

02:37:14.220 | The words are in print.

02:37:16.140 | I wrote 50 pages analyzing all of your work.

02:37:21.140 | I quote, some will say cherry pick,

02:37:24.540 | but I think accurately quote you.

02:37:28.060 | Here's a simple challenge.

02:37:30.660 | Answer me in print.

02:37:33.580 | Answer what I wrote and show where I'm making things up.

02:37:38.260 | Answer me in print.

02:37:39.100 | - I'm not familiar.

02:37:39.920 | I'm sorry.

02:37:40.760 | - Okay.

02:37:41.580 | - I'm not familiar with what you wrote.

02:37:42.420 | - That's no problem.

02:37:43.260 | You're a busy man.

02:37:44.080 | You're an important historian.

02:37:45.460 | You don't have to know everything that's in print,

02:37:48.260 | especially by modest publishers, but now you know.

02:37:53.060 | And so here's the public challenge.

02:37:55.740 | You answer and show where I cherry picked,

02:38:00.660 | where I misrepresented.

02:38:02.300 | - Send me the article.

02:38:03.140 | I will respond.

02:38:03.960 | - And then we can have a civil scholarly discussion.

02:38:07.860 | - I'm not sure we will agree, even if I-

02:38:09.540 | - We don't have to agree.

02:38:11.500 | It's for the reader to decide, looking at both sides,

02:38:15.860 | where this truth stands.

02:38:17.220 | - No, and if I may ask, it's good to discuss ideas

02:38:21.300 | that are in the air now, as opposed to citing literature

02:38:24.360 | that was written in the past as much as possible,

02:38:27.160 | because listeners were not familiar with the literature.

02:38:30.720 | So like whatever was written, just express it,

02:38:34.000 | condense the key idea, and then we can debate the ideas.

02:38:36.640 | - No, there are two aspects.

02:38:38.120 | There's a public debate, but there's also written words.

02:38:42.180 | - Yes, I'm just telling you that you,

02:38:44.080 | as an academic historian, put a lot of value

02:38:47.520 | in the written word, and I think it is valuable,

02:38:49.900 | but in this context-

02:38:50.960 | - He's incidentally not the only historian

02:38:52.520 | who puts value to words.

02:38:53.880 | I also do, actually.

02:38:54.720 | - Yes, but in this-

02:38:56.560 | - More than just one or two sentences at a time.

02:38:58.320 | - But in this context, just for the educational purposes,

02:39:02.240 | teaching people-

02:39:03.080 | - The educational purpose is why would people commit

02:39:06.200 | what I have to acknowledge, because I am faithful

02:39:09.720 | to the facts, massive atrocities on October 7th.

02:39:14.040 | Why did that happen?

02:39:16.160 | And I think that's the problem.

02:39:18.680 | The past is erased, and we suddenly went from 1948

02:39:23.680 | to October 7th, 2023, and there is a problem there.

02:39:29.720 | - So first of all, you have complete freedom to backtrack,

02:39:32.680 | and we'll go there with you.

02:39:34.760 | Obviously, we can't cover every single year,

02:39:36.720 | every single event,

02:39:37.760 | but there's probably critical moments in time.

02:39:39.920 | - Can I respond to something relating to that,

02:39:41.320 | the Lebanon War?

02:39:42.160 | I looked at the book that he got this from

02:39:43.000 | and what the quote was from.

02:39:44.360 | It sounds cold to say it, but war is tragic,

02:39:48.800 | and civilians die.

02:39:49.900 | There is no war that this has not happened in

02:39:52.320 | in the history of all of humankind.

02:39:54.560 | The statement that Israel might take care

02:39:57.280 | not to target civilians is not incompatible

02:39:59.760 | with a diary entry from someone who said

02:40:01.320 | they saw civilians getting killed.

02:40:03.120 | I think that sometimes we do a lot of weird games

02:40:05.200 | when we talk about international humanitarian law

02:40:06.920 | or laws that govern conflict,

02:40:08.240 | where we say things like civilians dying is a war crime,

02:40:11.280 | or civilian homes or hospitals getting destroyed

02:40:13.820 | is necessarily a war crime,

02:40:15.320 | or is necessarily somebody intentionally

02:40:17.080 | targeting civilians without making distinctions

02:40:19.320 | between military targets or civilian ones.

02:40:21.640 | I think that when we analyze different attacks

02:40:23.800 | or when we talk about the conduct of the military,

02:40:25.480 | I think it's important to understand,

02:40:27.640 | like, prospectively from the unit of analysis

02:40:30.520 | of the actual military committing the acts,

02:40:33.080 | what's happening and what are the decisions being made,

02:40:35.240 | rather than just saying, retrospectively,

02:40:37.600 | oh, well, a lot of civilians died,

02:40:39.560 | not very many military people died, comparatively speaking,

02:40:42.240 | so it must have been war crimes,

02:40:44.320 | especially when you've got another side,

02:40:47.240 | I'll fast forward to Hamas,

02:40:48.500 | that intentionally attempts to induce

02:40:50.480 | those same civilian numbers,

02:40:51.680 | because Hamas is guilty of any war crime

02:40:54.200 | that you would potentially accuse,

02:40:55.380 | and this is according to Amnesty International,

02:40:57.100 | people that Norm loves to cite,

02:40:58.640 | Hamas is guilty of all of these same war crimes,

02:41:00.540 | of them failing to take care of the civilian population,

02:41:02.720 | of them essentially utilizing human shields

02:41:04.400 | to try to fire rockets, free from attacks.

02:41:06.480 | - Essentially.

02:41:07.720 | - Essentially, yes.

02:41:08.680 | I'm just saying that, essentially,

02:41:10.920 | as in terms of how international law defines it,

02:41:12.480 | not how Amnesty International defines it,

02:41:13.760 | but Amnesty International describes

02:41:14.960 | times of human shielding,

02:41:16.080 | but they don't actually apply

02:41:17.040 | the correct international legal standard.

02:41:18.200 | - You don't know what's the correct international law.

02:41:20.520 | You haven't the course.

02:41:21.660 | - I absolutely know, Norm.

02:41:22.500 | - You haven't the course.

02:41:23.320 | - I absolutely do.

02:41:24.160 | - You can't find it on Wikipedia.

02:41:25.800 | - I'm just saying, believe it or not, Norm,

02:41:28.120 | the entire Geneva Convention is all on Wikipedia,

02:41:30.200 | it's a wonderful website.

02:41:31.320 | But I'm just saying that on the Hamas side,

02:41:33.120 | if there's an attempt to induce

02:41:34.600 | this type of military activity,

02:41:35.760 | attempt to induce civilian harm,

02:41:37.240 | that it's not just enough to say,

02:41:38.400 | well, here's a diary entry where a guy talks

02:41:40.360 | about how tragic these attacks are.

02:41:41.840 | - I think the problem with your statement

02:41:45.960 | is that if you go back and listen to it,

02:41:48.280 | the first part of it is war is hell, civilians die.

02:41:52.680 | It's a fact of life.

02:41:54.600 | And you state that in a very factual matter.

02:41:57.680 | Then when you start talking about Hamas,

02:42:00.760 | all of a sudden you've discovered morality,

02:42:03.380 | and you've discovered condemnation,

02:42:04.880 | and you've discovered intent.

02:42:06.320 | And you are, unfortunately, far from alone in this.

02:42:10.480 | I'll give you, you know who for me is a perfect example?

02:42:12.880 | - Well, wait, hold on.

02:42:13.720 | Just a second, we don't need examples.

02:42:14.960 | - No, go ahead.

02:42:15.800 | - The false equivalency of the two sides is astounding.

02:42:19.320 | When Hamas kills civilians in a surprise attack

02:42:22.440 | on October 7th, this isn't because they are attempting

02:42:25.200 | to target military targets and they happen

02:42:26.960 | to stumble into a giant festival of people that--

02:42:29.000 | - Well, they did happen to stumble into it.

02:42:30.760 | - They did, but--

02:42:31.600 | - And they killed 300 people.

02:42:32.440 | - Yeah, but when they stumbled into it,

02:42:34.120 | that wasn't an issue of trying to figure out

02:42:35.600 | a military target or not.

02:42:36.520 | They weren't failing in distinction.

02:42:38.000 | There wasn't a proportionality assessment done.

02:42:39.800 | It was just to kill civilians.

02:42:41.180 | Even the Amnesty International in 2008 and in 2014,

02:42:44.600 | and even today will continue to say

02:42:46.080 | that it's like the types of attacks--

02:42:46.920 | - I don't think you'll find anyone who will deny

02:42:49.260 | that Hamas has targeted civilians.

02:42:51.920 | - Sure.

02:42:52.760 | - You gave the example of--

02:42:53.580 | - But there's a difference because--

02:42:54.420 | - Of suicide bombings during the Second Intifada.

02:42:57.400 | I mean, facts are facts.

02:42:58.720 | - Sure.

02:42:59.560 | But I'm saying that the Hamas targeting of civilians

02:43:01.160 | is different than the incidental loss of life

02:43:03.000 | that occurs when Israel does--

02:43:04.760 | - How, you know, genocide is the intentional mass murder.

02:43:08.880 | - Genocide is an entirely separate claim.

02:43:10.840 | - Yeah, but the idea that Israel is not in the business

02:43:13.820 | of intentionally targeting civilians,

02:43:17.320 | I know that's what we're supposed to believe,

02:43:19.580 | but the historical record stands very clearly.

02:43:25.360 | - I don't believe it does.

02:43:26.280 | - You've written about it yourself.

02:43:27.120 | - Well, when you say historical,

02:43:28.240 | do you mean like in the '40s to the '60s,

02:43:30.640 | or do you mean like over the past like--

02:43:31.480 | - I would say from the '30s of the last century

02:43:33.920 | to the '20s of this century.

02:43:35.920 | I'd just like to make, you know,

02:43:38.100 | the way you characterized it,

02:43:41.260 | I think the best example of that I've come across

02:43:43.520 | during this specific conflict is John Kirby,

02:43:47.060 | the White House spokesman.

02:43:48.320 | I've named him Tears Tostarone for a very good reason.

02:43:51.960 | When he's talking about Palestinian civilian deaths,

02:43:57.600 | war is hell, you know, it's a fact of life, get used to it.

02:44:02.420 | When he was confronted with Israeli civilian deaths

02:44:05.720 | on October 7th, he literally broke down in tears--

02:44:07.880 | - But he understood that one is deliberate and one isn't.

02:44:10.460 | He understood that.

02:44:11.300 | - No, that's what he tried to make us understand.

02:44:12.880 | - No, no, he was speaking facts.

02:44:15.440 | The Hamas guys who attacked the kibbutzim,

02:44:18.560 | apart from the attacks on the military sites,

02:44:21.280 | when they attacked the kibbutzim,

02:44:22.720 | were out to kill civilians,

02:44:24.520 | and they killed family after family,

02:44:26.880 | house after house, the Israeli attacks

02:44:29.680 | on the Hamas installations--

02:44:31.200 | - You know better.

02:44:32.040 | - I don't know better.

02:44:33.200 | No, you don't know Israeli pilots, that's the problem.

02:44:35.880 | - Thank God.

02:44:36.720 | - You know, you don't know Israeli pilots.

02:44:39.240 | They believe that they are killing Hamasniks,

02:44:42.440 | they're given certain objectives--

02:44:43.260 | - I'm sure they believe it, I'm sure they believe it.

02:44:45.340 | - And if the Hamas is hiding behind civilian,

02:44:48.040 | civilians die, it's as simple as that.

02:44:49.920 | - Every time they target a kid,

02:44:51.440 | I'm sure they believe it's Hamas.

02:44:53.440 | - Yeah, when they killed the four kids on the--

02:44:57.680 | - They believe it.

02:44:58.520 | - Yeah, I know they believe it.

02:44:59.760 | - Even though they were--

02:45:00.760 | - You know that.

02:45:01.600 | - Diminutive size.

02:45:02.420 | - You know that.

02:45:03.260 | - Even though they were diminutive--

02:45:04.100 | - In that angle, you don't see the size.

02:45:04.920 | - No, they saw the size.

02:45:05.760 | - You don't see the size.

02:45:06.580 | - Let's leave it at that.

02:45:07.420 | - Oh, I know what he's quoting.

02:45:08.600 | You've lied about this particular instance in the past.

02:45:10.920 | Those kids weren't just on the beaches,

02:45:12.640 | as often stated in articles.

02:45:13.520 | Those kids were literally coming out

02:45:14.640 | of a previously identified Hamas compound

02:45:17.000 | that they had operated from.

02:45:18.240 | They literally--

02:45:19.080 | - Mr. Borelli, Mr. Borelli, with all due respect,

02:45:22.360 | with all due respect, you're such a fantastic moron.

02:45:25.720 | It's terrifying.

02:45:27.120 | That wharf was filled with journalists.

02:45:32.000 | There were tens scores of journalists.

02:45:35.720 | That was an old fisherman's shack.

02:45:40.000 | What are you talking about?

02:45:41.560 | It's so painful.

02:45:42.840 | - Hamas Naval--

02:45:43.680 | - It's so painful to listen to this idiocy.

02:45:46.840 | - And to be clear, on the other side,

02:45:48.160 | you're implying that a strike was okayed

02:45:50.080 | on the Israeli side, where they said,

02:45:51.400 | we're just gonna kill four Palestinian children today

02:45:53.360 | for no reason.

02:45:54.200 | - Do you believe that?

02:45:55.040 | - Do you believe that?

02:45:55.860 | Do you believe that?

02:45:56.700 | As you said, there was a hotel of journalists.

02:45:59.400 | Do you think that they--

02:46:00.240 | - Here we go, here we go.

02:46:02.280 | Here we go.

02:46:03.120 | - We'll never answer that question.

02:46:03.940 | - I will answer the question.

02:46:04.780 | - Pilots will out-kill four children.

02:46:07.120 | - And it was a proof, because that was a strike.

02:46:08.700 | That was a drone strike.

02:46:09.540 | So it was a proof all the way up the chain

02:46:11.080 | that we're gonna kill children today.

02:46:11.920 | We're gonna kill Palestinian children today.

02:46:12.740 | - You want me to answer,

02:46:14.000 | or do you want your motor mouth to go?

02:46:16.060 | Okay, answer.

02:46:19.000 | In 2018, there was the Great March of Return in Gaza.

02:46:24.000 | By all reckonings of human rights organizations

02:46:29.740 | and journalists who were there,

02:46:32.200 | it was overwhelmingly nonviolent.

02:46:36.000 | - But organized by the Hamas.

02:46:37.400 | - With whoever organized it.

02:46:39.360 | - It was organized by Satan.

02:46:40.640 | Let's start with that.

02:46:41.480 | - Yeah, Hamas.

02:46:42.300 | - Okay, Satan.

02:46:43.240 | I agree.

02:46:44.080 | Let's go for the big one.

02:46:45.760 | The big Megillah.

02:46:46.600 | It's Satan, okay?

02:46:48.600 | Overwhelmingly organized, overwhelmingly nonviolent.

02:46:52.520 | Resembled at the beginning,

02:46:53.840 | the first intifada. - They threw bombs here

02:46:54.680 | and there.

02:46:56.000 | - Represent the first-- - They threw bombs

02:46:56.820 | here and there, yeah.

02:46:57.660 | - Okay, not bombs.

02:46:58.800 | But let's--

02:46:59.640 | - They tried to make holes in the fence, obviously.

02:47:01.720 | - Let's continue.

02:47:02.720 | - Yeah.

02:47:03.840 | - So--

02:47:04.680 | - But I'm not sure Israel behaved morally in that respect.

02:47:06.400 | - Okay, okay.

02:47:07.440 | - No, no, no.

02:47:08.280 | - Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait.

02:47:09.100 | - I'm willing to grant you that.

02:47:09.940 | - Please, please.

02:47:11.440 | - I'm willing to grant you that.

02:47:12.280 | - Allow me to--

02:47:13.100 | - You don't have to pursue it,

02:47:13.940 | 'cause I'm willing to grant--

02:47:14.760 | - Allow me to finish.

02:47:15.960 | - I don't know anything about this, I'd like to--

02:47:17.360 | - Okay.

02:47:18.520 | So, as you know,

02:47:21.760 | along the Gaza perimeter,

02:47:24.120 | there was Israel's best-trained snipers, correct?

02:47:28.880 | - I don't know best-trained, they were snipers.

02:47:30.400 | - Fine.

02:47:31.240 | - Snipers.

02:47:32.060 | - Okay, all right?

02:47:32.900 | Because-- - The editorializing--

02:47:33.740 | - Hey, laugh, it's hilarious.

02:47:35.480 | The story's so funny.

02:47:37.120 | - You're lying about--

02:47:37.960 | - It's so funny. - It's very much

02:47:38.780 | in turn had aspects of violence to it.

02:47:40.080 | - Okay, okay. - Look what even

02:47:40.920 | the UN says it themselves. - Okay, okay, okay.

02:47:43.520 | - But you only collect what the UN says that you like.

02:47:45.480 | - The problem, Mr. Morelli,

02:47:46.880 | is you don't know the English language.

02:47:49.740 | You don't--

02:47:50.580 | - I can read from the UN website itself.

02:47:51.400 | - If you dare, did I say--

02:47:52.240 | - In regards to the Great March of Return,

02:47:53.440 | they said-- - Please stop

02:47:54.280 | with your idiotic--

02:47:55.120 | - While the vast majority of protesters

02:47:55.960 | have acted in a peaceful manner--

02:47:57.120 | - No, listen to what he's saying.

02:47:57.960 | - During most protests,

02:47:58.780 | dozens have approached the fence--

02:47:59.620 | - If you just agree with me, Mr. Morelli--

02:48:00.460 | - Attempting to damage it--

02:48:01.300 | - With burning fires-- - Did I say--

02:48:02.120 | - With burning fires, throwing stones--

02:48:03.680 | - Overwhelmingly non-violent--

02:48:04.520 | - And Molotov cocktails towards Israeli forces--

02:48:06.440 | - Okay. - Applying incendiary

02:48:07.720 | kites and balloons-- - All right, all right.

02:48:08.560 | - Into Israeli territory.

02:48:09.560 | The latter resulted-- - Yeah, but--

02:48:10.400 | - In extensive damage-- - Because you don't--

02:48:11.240 | - To agricultural land-- - Okay.

02:48:12.080 | - And nature reserves-- - Okay.

02:48:13.040 | - Inside Israel-- - Okay.

02:48:14.040 | - And risk the lives-- - Yeah, because--

02:48:14.860 | - Of Israeli civilians-- - Mr. Morelli--

02:48:15.700 | - Some instances-- - Mr. Morelli--

02:48:16.540 | - Of shooting and throwing-- - Mr. Morelli--

02:48:17.360 | - Of explosives-- - Yeah.

02:48:18.200 | - And also-- - Talk fast, talk fast.

02:48:19.680 | - I'm just trying to-- - So people think

02:48:20.520 | that you're coherent.

02:48:21.340 | - I'm just reading from the UN.

02:48:22.180 | - Okay, yeah, but you see--

02:48:23.020 | - I know you like them-- - You got, you got--

02:48:23.840 | - Sometimes, only when they-- - You got the months--

02:48:24.680 | - Agree with you, though.

02:48:25.520 | - You got the months wrong, you got the months wrong.

02:48:28.760 | We're talking about the beginning in March 30th, 2018.

02:48:32.200 | - You just described that March as mostly peaceful.

02:48:34.420 | - Okay, okay, allow me to finish.

02:48:36.080 | So there were the snipers, okay?

02:48:38.480 | Now, you find it so far-fetched,

02:48:41.480 | Israelis purposely, deliberately targeting civilians?

02:48:46.480 | That's such a far-fetched idea.

02:48:49.000 | An overwhelmingly non-violent march.

02:48:53.080 | What did the international--

02:48:54.640 | - It wasn't a march, it was a campaign--

02:48:55.920 | - Yeah, whatever you wanna call it--

02:48:56.760 | - Which went on for months.

02:48:58.040 | - Whatever you wanna call it.

02:48:58.880 | - For months. - Yeah.

02:48:59.880 | What did the UN investigation find?

02:49:02.320 | - Well, he just read a few-- - It found...

02:49:04.280 | I read the report.

02:49:07.080 | I don't read things off of those machines.

02:49:09.680 | I read the report.

02:49:11.600 | What did it find?

02:49:13.200 | Brace yourself, you thought it was so funny,

02:49:15.280 | the idea of IDF targeting civilians.

02:49:20.280 | It found, go look this up on your machine.

02:49:24.200 | I already know what you're gonna say.

02:49:25.120 | You're gonna say it found that only one or two of them

02:49:27.400 | were justified killings. - Targeted children.

02:49:29.720 | Targeted journalists, targeted medics,

02:49:34.200 | and here's the funniest one of all.

02:49:36.760 | It's so hilarious.

02:49:38.880 | They targeted disabled people

02:49:41.280 | who were 300 meters away from the fence

02:49:46.280 | and just standing by trees.

02:49:49.400 | - If this is true, if what you're saying is true--

02:49:50.320 | - If it's true.

02:49:51.760 | - By the way, just quick pause.

02:49:53.360 | I think everything was fascinating to listen to

02:49:56.720 | except the mention of hilarious.

02:49:58.240 | Nobody finds any of this hilarious.

02:49:59.920 | And if any of us are laughing,

02:50:02.600 | it's not at the suffering of civilians

02:50:04.560 | or suffering of anyone.

02:50:05.960 | It's at the obvious joyful camaraderie in the room.

02:50:09.280 | So I'm enjoying it and also the joy of learning.

02:50:12.600 | So thank you.

02:50:13.520 | - Can we talk about the targeting civilian thing

02:50:15.080 | a little bit?

02:50:15.920 | I think there's like an important underlying,

02:50:17.640 | not necessarily that,

02:50:18.480 | I just, I think it's important to understand.

02:50:20.080 | Yeah, I think it's important to understand

02:50:21.440 | that there's like three different things here

02:50:22.440 | that we need to think about.

02:50:23.280 | So one is a policy of killing civilians.

02:50:25.880 | Do we, so I would ask the other side,

02:50:27.720 | I'm gonna ask all three

02:50:28.560 | 'cause I know there won't be a short answer.

02:50:29.760 | Do you think there is a policy top down

02:50:31.920 | from the IDF to target civilians?

02:50:33.240 | That's one thing.

02:50:34.240 | A second thing is--

02:50:35.560 | - He said yes.

02:50:36.400 | - Yeah, sure, okay, yeah.

02:50:37.520 | That's fine, okay.

02:50:38.360 | But then the second thing is,

02:50:39.920 | or there's two distinctions I wanna draw between.

02:50:41.600 | I think Benny would say this.

02:50:43.000 | I would say this.

02:50:44.400 | I'm sure undoubtedly there have been cases

02:50:47.360 | where IDF soldiers for no good reason

02:50:50.120 | have targeted and killed Palestinians

02:50:52.040 | that they should not have done,

02:50:53.240 | that would it be prosecutable as war crimes

02:50:55.200 | as defined by the Rome Statute--

02:50:56.040 | - And some have been prosecuted.

02:50:57.600 | - Yeah, and I'm absolutely sure--

02:50:58.440 | - According to you--

02:50:59.280 | - Hold on, wait, wait, wait.

02:51:00.120 | - Or practically none.

02:51:00.960 | - I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure.

02:51:01.800 | - According to you and your book, practically none.

02:51:03.560 | - I'm sure that we would all agree for soldiers

02:51:05.440 | if that happens.

02:51:06.280 | But I think that it's important,

02:51:08.520 | I think that it's important

02:51:09.360 | that when we talk about military strikes,

02:51:11.200 | or we talk about things especially involving bombings

02:51:13.160 | or drone attacks,

02:51:14.360 | these are things that are signed off

02:51:15.760 | by multiple different layers of command

02:51:18.200 | by multiple people involved in an operation,

02:51:20.160 | including intelligence gathering,

02:51:21.280 | including weaponeering,

02:51:22.280 | and there also have typically lawyers involved.

02:51:24.440 | When you make the claim

02:51:25.680 | that an IDF soldier shot a Palestinian,

02:51:28.520 | those three people, the three hostages

02:51:29.840 | that came up with white flags

02:51:30.680 | and something horrible happened,

02:51:31.760 | I think that's a fair statement to make.

02:51:33.000 | And I think a lot of criticism is deserved.

02:51:34.560 | But when you make the statement

02:51:35.440 | that four children were killed by a strike,

02:51:38.080 | the claim that you're making--

02:51:39.320 | - Deliberately, yeah.

02:51:40.160 | - The claim that you're making,

02:51:41.200 | the claim that you're making

02:51:42.040 | is that multiple levels of the IDF

02:51:44.080 | signed off on just killing--

02:51:46.040 | - I have no idea what--

02:51:46.880 | - That's great, if you don't understand the process,

02:51:48.560 | then let me educate you.

02:51:49.400 | I can tell you, I do understand the process.

02:51:51.080 | I'm telling you.

02:51:51.920 | I'm trying to explain to you right now.

02:51:52.760 | - You're in the IDF?

02:51:53.600 | - No, it's basic military.

02:51:54.920 | You can ask anybody that's talked about--

02:51:56.120 | - Aside from Wikipedia,

02:51:57.600 | can you tell me what your knowledge of the IDF is?

02:51:58.440 | - Yes, you can talk to people,

02:51:59.280 | you can talk to people who work in the military.

02:52:01.680 | - What's your knowledge of the IDF?

02:52:03.040 | - Your audience can look this up.

02:52:03.880 | Do you think that bombing and strikes

02:52:06.280 | are decided by one person in the field?

02:52:08.320 | Do you think one person--

02:52:09.160 | - Can I respond to this?

02:52:10.000 | - Can I respond to this?

02:52:10.840 | - What he's trying to tell you

02:52:11.680 | is that strikes themselves have entire apparatuses

02:52:14.400 | that are designed to figure out how to strike

02:52:16.440 | and who to strike.

02:52:17.280 | So when you say that four children are targeted,

02:52:19.320 | you're saying that a whole apparatus

02:52:20.920 | is trying to murder four Palestinian children.

02:52:23.360 | - You make my argument better than me.

02:52:24.200 | - Which is a ridiculous argument.

02:52:25.800 | - Or really, that it's impossible at the command level.

02:52:30.000 | It's impossible at the command level.

02:52:32.200 | But you said that they couldn't have done it at the bottom

02:52:34.760 | if it weren't also at the top.

02:52:36.240 | - You don't understand the strength

02:52:37.560 | of the claim that you're making.

02:52:39.040 | You're saying that from a top-down level

02:52:40.960 | that lawyers, multiple commanders--

02:52:41.800 | - With all due respect, Mr. Bernal,

02:52:43.280 | do not tell me what I don't understand.

02:52:45.760 | - Or Palestinians.

02:52:46.880 | - It's true, it's true.

02:52:48.520 | I don't spend my nights on Wikipedia.

02:52:50.920 | I read books.

02:52:51.960 | I admit that as a signal--

02:52:53.560 | - It's a waste of time.

02:52:54.400 | - Yeah, as I know, books are a waste of time.

02:52:57.200 | With all due regard, I completely respect the fact,

02:53:02.200 | and I'll say it on the air,

02:53:06.720 | as much as I find totally disgusting

02:53:11.080 | what's come of your politics,

02:53:13.360 | a lot of the books are excellent.

02:53:16.360 | And I'll even tell you, because I'm not afraid of saying it,

02:53:19.920 | whenever I have to check on a basic fact,

02:53:22.800 | the equivalent of going to the Britannica,

02:53:25.680 | I go to your books.

02:53:27.200 | I know you got a lot of the facts right.

02:53:29.240 | - Benny Moore's books for the listener.

02:53:30.680 | - I would never say books are a waste of time,

02:53:34.960 | and it's regrettable to you

02:53:37.040 | that you got strapped with a partner

02:53:39.520 | who thinks that all the wisdom, all the wisdom--

02:53:42.600 | - He didn't say they're a waste of time.

02:53:44.000 | - I'd like to respond to what you were saying.

02:53:47.600 | I think the question that we're trying to answer,

02:53:53.520 | I think--

02:53:54.360 | - I think you don't understand Israel, you know?

02:53:55.720 | - Let me finish, please.

02:53:56.560 | - Neither really understands Israel.

02:53:57.680 | - I think we're all--

02:53:58.520 | - Now it works.

02:53:59.360 | - I think we're all agreed

02:54:01.000 | that Palestinians have deliberately targeted civilians.

02:54:05.800 | Whether we're talking about Hamas and Islamic Jihad today,

02:54:09.440 | or previously--

02:54:10.280 | - I prefer the word murdered and raped rather than targeted.

02:54:13.600 | Targeted is too soft for what the Hamas did.

02:54:16.040 | - I'm okay with that.

02:54:16.880 | - I'm not talking about--

02:54:18.360 | - I'm talking about this now.

02:54:19.280 | - Yeah, but I'm trying to answer his question.

02:54:21.600 | - Yeah, yeah, okay.

02:54:23.000 | - Historically, there is substantial evidence

02:54:27.280 | that Palestinians have targeted civilians.

02:54:31.560 | Whether it's been incidental or systematic

02:54:34.760 | is a different discussion.

02:54:35.720 | I don't want to get into that now.

02:54:37.640 | For some reason, there seems to be a huge debate

02:54:40.760 | about whether any Israeli has ever sunk so low

02:54:45.240 | as to target a civilian.

02:54:47.400 | I don't--

02:54:48.240 | - No, we've agreed, both said that--

02:54:49.080 | - We just agreed--

02:54:49.920 | - We've just said that this has happened here and there.

02:54:51.280 | - And I think--

02:54:52.120 | - We've agreed on that.

02:54:52.960 | - I think--

02:54:54.040 | - What we're saying is it's not policy,

02:54:55.720 | which is what you guys are implying,

02:54:57.400 | that they kill civilians deliberately.

02:54:59.400 | - If I understand you correctly,

02:55:01.800 | you're basically making the claim

02:55:04.240 | that none of these attacks could have happened

02:55:06.920 | without going through an entire chain of command.

02:55:09.400 | - Strike cells that are involved in like drone attacks--

02:55:11.440 | - Yes.

02:55:12.280 | - Or plane attacks or--

02:55:13.120 | - My understanding of the Israeli military,

02:55:16.240 | and you could perhaps, you've served in it,

02:55:18.600 | you would know better.

02:55:20.040 | It's actually a fairly chaotic organization.

02:55:22.320 | - No, no, that's not true, especially not the Air Force.

02:55:24.680 | It's extremely, extremely organized.

02:55:26.920 | The Air Force works in a very organized fashion,

02:55:29.760 | as he says, with lawyers, a chain of command,

02:55:32.720 | and ultimately the pilot drops the bomb

02:55:34.640 | where he's told to drop it.

02:55:35.480 | - Was it an effective edge?

02:55:36.440 | Was that 200 strikes in like 60 seconds, I think?

02:55:39.640 | I think at the opening of protective edge?

02:55:41.520 | Like the, yeah, the coordination between--

02:55:42.360 | - You're talking about 2008.

02:55:44.920 | - I think the protective edge was 2014,

02:55:46.720 | but I'm just saying that the coordination in the military

02:55:48.280 | is pretty tight.

02:55:49.120 | - Well, my understanding of the Israeli military--

02:55:52.080 | - It's very organized.

02:55:52.920 | - Is that it's quite chaotic,

02:55:54.960 | and there's also a lot of testimonies from Israel,

02:55:58.480 | but be that as it may.

02:56:00.040 | Okay, I'm prepared to accept both of your contentions,

02:56:04.480 | that it's a highly organized and disciplined force.

02:56:08.840 | Air Force, under any scenario,

02:56:10.440 | is going to be more organized than the other branches,

02:56:13.200 | and you're saying such a strike

02:56:14.800 | would have been inconceivable.

02:56:16.520 | - Well, I'm not necessarily saying inconceivable.

02:56:18.200 | I'm just saying that like that would have required

02:56:19.640 | like murderous intent from somebody below.

02:56:22.400 | I don't think good evidence has been presented

02:56:23.480 | to say that that's the case.

02:56:24.320 | - Your basic claim is that it would be fair to assume

02:56:28.160 | that such a strike could have only been carried out

02:56:30.480 | with multiple levels of authorization and signing off.

02:56:35.480 | Okay, let's accept that for the sake of argument.

02:56:38.760 | We have now seen incident after incident

02:56:44.960 | after incident after incident

02:56:47.320 | where entire families are vaporized in single strikes.

02:56:52.360 | Who is in the families?

02:56:53.440 | Who lives in the house?

02:56:54.880 | - Family members. - Inside?

02:56:55.960 | No, or next to the house. - Family members.

02:56:57.600 | - In which these families are killed.

02:56:59.200 | - We have seen incident after-

02:57:00.920 | - Do you know that Hamasniks weren't in that house?

02:57:03.440 | Do you know that their ammunition dumps

02:57:05.320 | weren't in those houses? - Why do I have

02:57:06.240 | to prove a negative?

02:57:07.440 | - You are saying that they deliberately targeted families.

02:57:10.640 | If Israel wanted to kill civilians in Gaza,

02:57:14.240 | they could have killed 500,000 by now

02:57:17.000 | with the number of strikes they've done.

02:57:18.400 | - And therefore- - And the fact

02:57:19.240 | that they've only killed a certain small number-

02:57:21.960 | - 30,000 is a small number.

02:57:23.440 | - Small number in proportion.

02:57:24.280 | - You consider 30,000 a small number.

02:57:25.400 | - Small number in proportion over four months

02:57:28.200 | probably is an indication that it's targeted

02:57:31.720 | and that there are Hamas targets in these places.

02:57:34.640 | - So I've given- - 12,000 children is only.

02:57:38.680 | And if that's the case, why is it-

02:57:40.760 | - Did I use the word only? - Yeah, you said only.

02:57:43.160 | Only.

02:57:44.240 | Though, Professor Maroz, here's a question for you.

02:57:47.120 | If we take every combat zone in the world

02:57:51.160 | for the past three years, every combat zone in the world-

02:57:54.680 | - In Vietnam, the Americans killed a million people.

02:57:56.800 | - I'm not talking about Vietnam.

02:57:57.640 | - Well, they could have killed 40 million.

02:57:58.840 | - I wasn't, yeah, I was in the anti-war movement.

02:58:01.800 | So don't distract me- - The Americans killed

02:58:03.160 | a million people in Vietnam.

02:58:04.000 | - Fine, fine.

02:58:05.280 | And 30 million Russians were killed during World War II,

02:58:09.760 | so everything else is irrelevant.

02:58:11.440 | Okay.

02:58:12.280 | - Not everything's relevant. - Here's a question.

02:58:14.000 | - Stick to proportionality. - Professor Maroz,

02:58:16.040 | here's a question, it's very perplexing.

02:58:18.840 | If you take every combat zone in the world

02:58:22.160 | for the past three years,

02:58:24.680 | and you multiply the number of children killed

02:58:29.040 | by four, every combat zone in the world,

02:58:32.720 | you get Gaza, okay?

02:58:36.560 | So when you say- - What is that supposed to prove?

02:58:38.360 | - Okay, I'm gonna tell you- - Wait, wait, firstly,

02:58:39.840 | you're relying- - Just shut up.

02:58:40.800 | - You're relying on Hamas numbers.

02:58:42.760 | - No, I'm not relying- - Hamas numbers

02:58:43.960 | are not necessarily true. - I'm relying on the numbers

02:58:45.240 | that everybody else, I'm relying on the numbers-

02:58:47.400 | - Even though we take the numbers, though,

02:58:48.360 | what does that prove?

02:58:49.200 | - Those are Hamas numbers. - Okay, okay, okay.

02:58:50.760 | - Which may not be true. - Fine, fine.

02:58:52.080 | - They could invent anything,

02:58:53.680 | 'cause you know that they are a mendacious organization.

02:58:56.920 | - I know mendacious, believe me.

02:58:58.760 | - You like words, mendacious. - Mendacious as in-

02:59:00.440 | - Mendacious organization. - The Israeli Ministry

02:59:01.960 | of Foreign Affairs.

02:59:03.440 | Okay, so here's the thing.

02:59:05.280 | You say they could have killed 500,000,

02:59:09.040 | but they only killed only, that's your word.

02:59:11.480 | - I'm saying that- - They only killed 30,000.

02:59:13.520 | - If you believe that they deliberately target civilians,

02:59:16.760 | they would have killed many, many more.

02:59:18.960 | The fact is that they don't deliberately target civilians.

02:59:22.000 | - Professor Morris, for a historian-

02:59:24.400 | - And you don't understand- - For a historian,

02:59:26.440 | I don't wanna understand Israeli society.

02:59:28.560 | If you wanna know the truth, I don't want to.

02:59:30.480 | I don't wanna get inside their heads.

02:59:31.760 | - That's the problem.

02:59:32.600 | - 90% of Israelis- - A good historian,

02:59:36.080 | a good historian tries to get into the heads

02:59:38.600 | of the various protagonists. - There's a limit,

02:59:40.720 | there's a limit.

02:59:41.920 | When 90% of Israelis think

02:59:45.200 | that Israel's using enough or too little force in Gaza,

02:59:50.200 | I don't wanna get inside that head.

02:59:52.400 | 40% think that Israel's using insufficient force in Gaza.

02:59:57.400 | I don't wanna get inside that head.

03:00:00.240 | I don't wanna get inside the head of people

03:00:02.080 | who think they're using insufficient force-

03:00:04.880 | - Historians must understand. - Against the population,

03:00:07.320 | against the population, half of which is children.

03:00:10.400 | I don't wanna get inside that head.

03:00:13.120 | But here's the point,

03:00:14.360 | because your partner wants to know the point.

03:00:18.320 | You don't understand political constraints.

03:00:22.240 | One of your ministers said,

03:00:23.720 | let's drop an atomic bomb on Gaza.

03:00:26.280 | - Do you think he really meant that?

03:00:27.600 | - He said it through you. - No, no, no, no.

03:00:29.480 | It was said in a sort of a- - Professor Morris.

03:00:31.480 | - Questionable way. - He said it the day after.

03:00:32.920 | - He didn't say they should drop an atomic bomb.

03:00:33.760 | - Professor Morris. - He said it-

03:00:34.600 | - The day after the Israeli attack.

03:00:35.440 | - I'm not supporting he's an idiot.

03:00:36.280 | - Professor Morris, none other- - This minister is a-

03:00:38.320 | - None other- - This minister is a messianic idiot.

03:00:41.000 | - None other than Israel's- - But he didn't say

03:00:43.080 | drop an atomic bomb on- - None other than Israel's

03:00:46.280 | chief historian, the famed, justifiably famed, Benny Morris,

03:00:51.280 | thinks we should be dropping nuclear weapons on Iran.

03:00:56.640 | - Iran has for years, its leaders for years

03:00:58.920 | have said we should destroy Israel.

03:01:00.880 | You agree with that?

03:01:02.480 | They've said we should destroy Israel.

03:01:04.240 | Israel must be destroyed.

03:01:05.680 | Is that correct?

03:01:07.520 | This is what the Iranian leaders

03:01:08.800 | have been saying since Khomeini.

03:01:10.040 | - I would say Iranian leaders have sent mixed messages.

03:01:13.200 | - Okay, okay, but some of them have said,

03:01:15.280 | including Khamenei and Khomeini.

03:01:16.880 | - If you don't know their evidence,

03:01:18.320 | if you don't know their evidence,

03:01:19.520 | why are you laughing? - This is like a skepticism,

03:01:20.600 | it's very funny.

03:01:21.440 | - It's funny because- - Iran doesn't support

03:01:22.720 | Hezbollah and the Houthis and Hamas

03:01:24.680 | even if they want Israel destroyed.

03:01:25.520 | - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

03:01:26.360 | - Embrace yourself. - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

03:01:27.680 | - To the extent- - It's complicated.

03:01:28.520 | - That the Houthis are trying- - It's complicated.

03:01:30.320 | - To the extent that the Houthis are trying

03:01:32.320 | to stop the genocide in Gaza.

03:01:34.200 | - There is no genocide. - I support-

03:01:35.040 | - There is no genocide. - I support-

03:01:35.860 | - They are the right- - I support-

03:01:36.700 | - To attack civilian ships. - I support-

03:01:37.540 | - I know you selectively- - I support the Houthis.

03:01:38.360 | - Support international law- - There's no genocide.

03:01:40.100 | - When it agrees with you. - I support, okay.

03:01:41.520 | - And then when it doesn't,

03:01:42.360 | you decide to throw international law to the wind.

03:01:43.180 | - There's no genocide in Gaza. - If you like, if you like-

03:01:45.800 | - Hold on a second, Norm, Norm.

03:01:46.640 | - Let me read what you said. - Norm, Norm, stop, please.

03:01:49.800 | Norm, just for me, please, just give me a second.

03:01:52.440 | You said that there's no genocide going on in Gaza.

03:01:54.680 | Let me ask that clear question.

03:01:56.520 | The same question I asked on the Hamas attacks.

03:01:59.200 | Is there, from a legal, philosophical, moral perspective,

03:02:02.760 | is there genocide going on in Gaza today?

03:02:05.420 | - Is there a genocide going on in Gaza?

03:02:09.120 | Well, in several years,

03:02:10.880 | we will have a definitive response-

03:02:12.440 | - But at the moment- - To that question.

03:02:14.120 | What has happened thus far is that on the 29th of December,

03:02:18.660 | the Republic of South Africa instituted

03:02:22.120 | proceedings against Israel,

03:02:26.080 | pursuant to the 1948 Convention on the Prevention

03:02:29.880 | and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

03:02:32.300 | South Africa basically accused Israel

03:02:36.840 | of perpetrating genocide in the Gaza Strip.

03:02:41.560 | On the 26th of January,

03:02:44.000 | the court issued its initial ruling.

03:02:50.480 | The court, at this stage,

03:02:52.500 | is not making a determination on whether Israel has

03:02:58.400 | or has not committed genocide.

03:03:01.280 | So just as it has not found Israel guilty,

03:03:04.800 | it certainly also hasn't found Israel innocent.

03:03:08.280 | What the court had to do at this stage

03:03:11.360 | was take one of two decisions.

03:03:13.480 | Either South Africa's case was the equivalent

03:03:18.480 | of a frivolous lawsuit and dismiss it

03:03:21.480 | and close the proceedings,

03:03:23.280 | or it had to determine that South Africa

03:03:27.760 | presented a plausible case

03:03:30.160 | that Israel was violating its obligations

03:03:34.040 | under the Genocide Convention,

03:03:36.040 | and that it would, on that basis, hold a full hearing.

03:03:40.280 | Now, a lot of people have looked at the court's ruling

03:03:45.280 | of the 26th of January and focused on the fact

03:03:50.320 | that the court did not order a ceasefire.

03:03:52.820 | I actually wasn't expecting it to order a ceasefire,

03:03:56.040 | and I wasn't surprised that it didn't

03:03:57.920 | because in the other cases that the court has considered,

03:04:02.120 | most prominently Bosnia and Myanmar,

03:04:06.080 | it also didn't order a ceasefire.

03:04:08.060 | And South Africa, in requesting a ceasefire,

03:04:13.120 | also didn't ask the court to render an opinion

03:04:16.700 | on the legitimacy or lack thereof

03:04:18.960 | of Israel's military operation.

03:04:22.760 | From my perspective, the key issue on the 26th of January

03:04:27.760 | was whether the court would simply dismiss the case

03:04:31.520 | or decide to proceed with it.

03:04:33.360 | - And it decided to proceed.

03:04:34.960 | - And it decided to proceed.

03:04:35.960 | And I think that's enormously--

03:04:37.520 | - I thought that was--

03:04:38.360 | - I think that's enormously significant.

03:04:39.200 | - But you said they committed genocide.

03:04:40.760 | You already said they committed genocide.

03:04:42.520 | - I also--

03:04:43.360 | - It's committing genocide.

03:04:44.440 | - But if I could just--

03:04:45.280 | - Allow me, allow me--

03:04:47.600 | - Use that word.

03:04:48.440 | - That's correct.

03:04:49.720 | - Now--

03:04:50.540 | - I don't run away from--

03:04:51.380 | - No, you did say Israel is committing genocide.

03:04:52.960 | - Can you let Moyad finish?

03:04:54.280 | - Well, the end of the story is you specifically asked

03:04:57.000 | whether I think Israel is committing genocide.

03:04:59.680 | I explained formally there is no finding.

03:05:02.600 | And as you said, we won't know for a number of years.

03:05:06.520 | And I think there's legitimate questions to be raised.

03:05:08.580 | I mean, in the Bosnia case,

03:05:09.920 | which I think all four of us would agree

03:05:11.840 | was clearly a case of genocide,

03:05:14.280 | the court determined--

03:05:15.640 | - I mean, by the Serbs.

03:05:16.480 | - Yes.

03:05:17.420 | And in the Bosnia case, the court determined

03:05:20.440 | that of all the evidence placed before them,

03:05:23.160 | only Srebrenica qualified as genocide.

03:05:26.020 | And all the other atrocities committed

03:05:28.600 | did not qualify as genocide.

03:05:31.040 | You know, international law is a developing organism.

03:05:34.300 | I don't know how the court is going to respond in this case.

03:05:39.240 | So I wouldn't take it as a foregone conclusion

03:05:42.880 | how the court is going to respond.

03:05:44.320 | - But Norman has determined already.

03:05:46.160 | - I have too, because you're asking my personal opinion.

03:05:48.600 | - Personal opinion is also--

03:05:49.640 | - So as a matter of law, I want to state very clearly,

03:05:53.280 | it has not been determined

03:05:55.040 | and won't be determined for several years.

03:05:57.160 | Based on my observations and the evidence before me,

03:06:02.160 | I would say it's indisputable

03:06:07.560 | that Israel is engaged in a genocidal assault

03:06:11.100 | against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip.

03:06:12.860 | - Which is the PLO line.

03:06:14.160 | - Yeah, with the program, the PLO is long past--

03:06:17.840 | - Okay, the Palestinian Authority.

03:06:20.280 | - As you were saying, genocide is not a body count.

03:06:25.280 | Genocide consists of two elements,

03:06:30.640 | the destruction of a people in whole or in part.

03:06:34.980 | So in other words, you can commit genocide

03:06:37.200 | by killing 30,000 people.

03:06:38.960 | It doesn't have, well, five probably is below the threshold.

03:06:41.280 | - There is a problem of numbers.

03:06:42.520 | - Yes, but I think 30,000 crosses the threshold

03:06:46.160 | and not reaching 500,000 is probably relevant.

03:06:49.480 | And the second element is there has to be an intent.

03:06:52.640 | In other words--

03:06:53.960 | - And you believe there's an intent?

03:06:55.120 | - Yes, I think if there is any other plausible reason

03:06:59.760 | for why all these people are being murdered,

03:07:02.780 | it's not genocide.

03:07:04.320 | And as far as intent is--

03:07:05.520 | - What about hiding behind a human shield?

03:07:08.040 | You don't think that's a reason for them being killed?

03:07:09.960 | - Well, let's get the intent part out of the way first.

03:07:13.040 | South Africa's--

03:07:14.640 | - Forget South Africa, they're not the party.

03:07:16.160 | - Well, I'd like to finish.

03:07:17.320 | - They're just pro-Hamas government.

03:07:19.560 | That's got nothing to do with anything.

03:07:20.880 | - I think they're pro-Satan as well last time I checked.

03:07:23.040 | - No, they're pro-Hamas.

03:07:24.240 | - You know, for some reason, you don't have a problem

03:07:27.160 | with people being pro-Israeli at the time of this.

03:07:31.000 | But if they support Palestinians' right to life

03:07:35.080 | or self-determination, they get demonized

03:07:37.400 | and delegitimized as pro-Hamas.

03:07:38.240 | - Not because of that.

03:07:39.080 | Because they supported an organization

03:07:40.160 | which murdered 1,200 people deliberately.

03:07:42.360 | That's my problem.

03:07:43.200 | - They're supporting a state that has murdered 30,000.

03:07:45.200 | - But they haven't, because these 30,000

03:07:47.320 | are basically human shields used by the Hamas,

03:07:50.280 | in which the Hamas wanted killed.

03:07:52.960 | They wanted them killed.

03:07:54.400 | Hamas wanted these people killed.

03:07:55.800 | - If I could just get--

03:07:56.640 | - You don't think they wanted them killed?

03:07:58.200 | - No, I don't.

03:07:59.040 | - They didn't provide them with shelters.

03:07:59.880 | They build tunnels for their fighters,

03:08:01.880 | but not one shelter for their own civilians.

03:08:04.360 | - You asked me about intent.

03:08:05.480 | - Of course they want them killed.

03:08:06.320 | - Okay, you asked me about intent.

03:08:08.280 | And the reason that I bought in the South African

03:08:11.360 | application is because it is actually

03:08:14.520 | exceptionally detailed on intent by quoting numerous--

03:08:19.520 | - All sorts of idiotic ministers in Israel.

03:08:21.280 | - Well, yeah, including the prime minister,

03:08:23.280 | the defense minister--

03:08:24.120 | - I mean, the prime minister didn't say kill--

03:08:25.200 | - The chief of staff--

03:08:26.040 | - Didn't say genocide, the chief of staff--

03:08:27.040 | - No, he said Amalek.

03:08:27.880 | - According to Asa Kasher--

03:08:28.720 | - He said Amalek.

03:08:29.560 | - Use the word Amalek--

03:08:30.400 | - According to Asa Kasher--

03:08:31.240 | - Because the Hamas are a really evil organization.

03:08:33.160 | - According to Asa Kasher--

03:08:34.240 | - If I may.

03:08:35.240 | - According to Asa Kasher, the philosopher of the IDF--

03:08:38.720 | - Asa Kasher, yeah.

03:08:39.720 | - He said that Netanyahu was vowing genocide.

03:08:44.720 | Now he's an idiot?

03:08:46.200 | - So the point--

03:08:47.040 | - He didn't say he's an idiot, but he just passed it.

03:08:49.080 | - So the reason I raised the South African application

03:08:52.280 | is twofold, Hamas or no Hamas.

03:08:54.520 | It's exceptionally detailed on the question of intent.

03:08:59.280 | And secondly, when the International Court of Justice

03:09:03.400 | issues a ruling, individual justices have the right--

03:09:08.920 | - Can give their own opinion.

03:09:10.480 | And I found the German one to be the most interesting

03:09:13.280 | on this specific question because he was basically saying

03:09:17.840 | that he didn't think South Africa

03:09:20.200 | presented a persuasive case.

03:09:22.800 | But he said their section on intent was so overpowering

03:09:27.800 | that he felt he was left with no choice

03:09:32.880 | but to vote with the majority.

03:09:34.680 | So I think that answers the intent part of your question.

03:09:38.400 | - So for the ICJ case that South Africa's brought,

03:09:41.480 | I think there's a couple things that need to be mentioned.

03:09:43.160 | One is, and I saw you two talk at length about this,

03:09:46.640 | the plausibility standard is incredibly low.

03:09:49.360 | The only thing we're looking for

03:09:50.480 | is a basic presentation of facts

03:09:52.040 | that make it conceivable, possible, that--

03:09:55.200 | - Plausible.

03:09:56.040 | - Plausible, which legally this is obviously

03:09:59.280 | below criminal conviction, below--

03:10:01.080 | - Yes, of course.

03:10:01.920 | - Yeah, below--

03:10:02.760 | - Think of it as an indictment.

03:10:04.200 | - Sure, possibly, maybe even at a lower level

03:10:06.880 | than even an indictment.

03:10:08.000 | So plausibility is an incredibly low standard, number one.

03:10:11.320 | Number two, if you actually go through

03:10:13.920 | and you read the complaint that South Africa filed,

03:10:17.720 | I would say that if you go through the quotes

03:10:21.040 | and you even follow through to the source of the quotes,

03:10:23.760 | the misrepresentation that South Africa does

03:10:26.320 | and their case about all of these horrendous quotes,

03:10:28.960 | in my opinion, borders on criminal.

03:10:31.360 | - Well, 16 ICJ judges disagree.

03:10:33.520 | - That's fine if 16 ICJ judges disagree,

03:10:35.760 | but I'm gonna give-- - They must be

03:10:36.600 | awful incompetent.

03:10:38.000 | - You know, they could be, but--

03:10:38.840 | - They must be, or even the American judge,

03:10:41.640 | she must have been awful incompetent

03:10:44.680 | if she was unable to see the misrepresentations

03:10:49.280 | that Mr. Burnell, based on his Wikipedia entry,

03:10:52.680 | was able to find.

03:10:53.520 | - So this is based on the official ICJ report

03:10:56.240 | that was released?

03:10:57.080 | I'm not sure if you read the entire thing or not.

03:10:58.320 | - I read every aspect. - Okay, that's great.

03:11:00.160 | Did you go through and actually identify

03:11:01.640 | any of the sources for the underlying quotes?

03:11:03.120 | - Actually, brace yourself for this,

03:11:05.040 | and Muin could confirm it.

03:11:06.720 | Yaniv Kogan, an Israeli, and Jamie Sternweiner,

03:11:12.400 | half-Israeli, they checked every single quote

03:11:17.400 | in the Hebrew original, and Yaniv Kogan,

03:11:22.080 | love the guy, he has terrifying powers of concentration,

03:11:27.080 | he checked every single quote.

03:11:30.600 | Is that correct, Muin?

03:11:32.160 | And Jamie checked every single quote

03:11:35.000 | in the English, in the context,

03:11:38.400 | and where there were any contextual questions,

03:11:42.440 | they told us.

03:11:43.280 | - I think they found one?

03:11:44.320 | - Yeah, I think they found one.

03:11:45.960 | So I do not believe that those 15 judges,

03:11:50.960 | it was 15 to two.

03:11:53.800 | - 16 to two, I think.

03:11:55.560 | - They're 15 in the court plus two,

03:11:57.480 | so it's 17, so it's 15 to two.

03:12:00.480 | I don't think those 15 judges were incompetent,

03:12:05.400 | and I certainly don't believe the president of the court,

03:12:11.280 | an American, would allow herself to be duped.

03:12:16.960 | - Okay, well, let me read it.

03:12:19.320 | - You might recall, Mr. Lebreau, Mr. Lebreau.

03:12:22.880 | - All right, let him read.

03:12:24.440 | - Sure, so this was taken from the South African complaint.

03:12:28.400 | There's tons of these, but so here's one.

03:12:30.880 | In the complaint for the ICJ, they said

03:12:33.360 | that on the 12th of October, 2023,

03:12:35.560 | President Isaac Herzog made clear

03:12:38.240 | that Israel was not distinguishing

03:12:39.960 | between militants and civilians in Gaza,

03:12:42.720 | stating in a press conference to foreign media

03:12:44.840 | in relation to Palestinians in Gaza,

03:12:46.960 | over one million of whom are children,

03:12:48.680 | quote, quote, "It's an entire nation out there

03:12:52.440 | "that is responsible.

03:12:53.680 | "It is not true, this rhetoric about civilians

03:12:56.320 | "not aware, not involved."

03:12:57.680 | - I saw that. - It's absolutely not true,

03:12:59.840 | and we will fight until we break their backbone, end quote.

03:13:03.720 | If you actually go to the news article

03:13:05.680 | that they even state, they even link it in their complaint,

03:13:08.720 | the full context for the quote was,

03:13:10.720 | quote, "It is an entire nation out there

03:13:12.880 | "that is responsible.

03:13:14.000 | "It's not true, this rhetoric about civilians

03:13:15.840 | "not being aware, not involved.

03:13:17.240 | "It's absolutely not true.

03:13:18.720 | "They could have risen up.

03:13:19.760 | "They could have fought against that evil regime,

03:13:21.440 | "which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat,

03:13:23.600 | "but we are at war.

03:13:24.680 | "We are defending our homes.

03:13:26.200 | "We are protecting our homes.

03:13:27.640 | "That's the truth, and when a nation protects its home,

03:13:30.160 | "it fights, and we will fight

03:13:31.280 | "until we break their backbone."

03:13:32.840 | He acknowledged that many Gazans

03:13:34.160 | had nothing to do with Hamas,

03:13:35.600 | but was adamant that others did.

03:13:37.160 | Quote, "I agree there are many innocent Palestinians

03:13:39.840 | "who don't agree with this,

03:13:41.120 | "but you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen,

03:13:43.160 | "and you wanna shoot it at me.

03:13:44.480 | "Am I allowed to defend myself?

03:13:45.880 | "We have to defend ourselves.

03:13:47.360 | "We have the right to do so."

03:13:48.920 | This is not the same as saying there's no distinction

03:13:51.920 | between militants and civilians in Gaza.

03:13:53.880 | His statement here is actually fully compliant

03:13:55.960 | with international law, to the letter,

03:13:58.000 | because if you are storing military supplies

03:14:00.600 | in civilian areas, these things become military targets,

03:14:03.320 | and you're allowed to do

03:14:04.160 | proportionality assessments afterwards.

03:14:05.800 | So this is supposed to be one of many quotes

03:14:08.040 | that they've shown that is supposed to demonstrate

03:14:10.400 | genocidal intent, but it is very easily explained

03:14:13.520 | by military intent, or by a conflict between two parties.

03:14:16.200 | - I saw that press conference.

03:14:17.840 | - Wait, let me just say something.

03:14:19.160 | All of this talk is a bit irrelevant,

03:14:21.200 | because it may sound to the listeners

03:14:24.120 | that the court in The Hague has ruled

03:14:27.480 | that Israel is committing genocide.

03:14:28.760 | - No, I think we-- - It hasn't, it hasn't.

03:14:30.240 | It's just going in the next few years

03:14:32.760 | to look at the whole subject.

03:14:34.200 | There has been no determination at all.

03:14:37.040 | And as Stephen says, some of the quotes

03:14:40.640 | are not exactly accurate quotes,

03:14:42.600 | or taken out of context. - Total discharacterization.

03:14:45.200 | - Okay, it is correct, as Muin put it,

03:14:50.400 | that it'll be several years

03:14:52.880 | before the court makes a determination.

03:14:56.000 | - And my guess is that it will determine

03:14:57.840 | there was no genocide.

03:14:58.680 | - I don't know. - We can only--

03:14:59.520 | - That's my guess. - I can't--

03:15:00.360 | - Yes, no, I'm just giving you my guess.

03:15:02.120 | - I can't predict.

03:15:03.920 | I got it all wrong, actually, as Muin will attest.

03:15:06.880 | I got it all wrong the first time.

03:15:08.520 | I never thought the American judge

03:15:09.880 | would vote in favor of plausibility.

03:15:12.600 | - So you admit that you were wrong?

03:15:14.080 | - Yeah, of course.

03:15:15.200 | I think I tell Muin twice a day,

03:15:17.280 | I was wrong about this, and I was wrong about that.

03:15:20.160 | I'm not wrong about the facts.

03:15:21.680 | I try not to be, but my speculations, they can be wrong.

03:15:25.680 | Okay, leaving that aside.

03:15:27.800 | First of all, as Muin pointed out,

03:15:30.120 | there's a difference between the legal decision

03:15:32.840 | by the ruling and an independent judgment.

03:15:36.360 | Now, South Africa was not filing a frivolous case.

03:15:41.040 | That was 84 pages.

03:15:43.480 | It was single--

03:15:44.320 | - Even 84 pages can be pretty frivolous.

03:15:46.680 | - It takes an hour and a half to read.

03:15:48.440 | - It was not a massive case.

03:15:50.240 | - It was single-spaced,

03:15:52.080 | and it had literally hundreds of footnotes.

03:15:54.320 | - It can still be frivolous.

03:15:55.480 | - With, it's possible.

03:15:57.320 | - Of course, but this one wasn't.

03:15:59.720 | - Yeah, I read the report.

03:16:01.280 | To tell you the truth, I followed very closely

03:16:03.440 | everything that's been happening to October 7th.

03:16:05.680 | I was mesmerized.

03:16:07.200 | I couldn't believe the comprehensiveness

03:16:09.480 | of that particular report.

03:16:11.600 | Number two, there are two quite respected judges,

03:16:14.960 | excuse me, there were two quite respected experts

03:16:18.600 | of international law sitting on the South African panel,

03:16:22.240 | John Dugard and Vaughan Lowe.

03:16:24.960 | Vaughan Lowe, as you might know,

03:16:26.560 | he argued the war case in 2004

03:16:30.200 | before the International Court of Justice.

03:16:32.600 | Now, they were not, they were alleging genocide,

03:16:37.200 | which in their view means the evidence in their minds,

03:16:40.640 | we're not yet at the court,

03:16:42.040 | the evidence in their minds compels the conclusion

03:16:45.920 | that genocide is being committed.

03:16:48.520 | I am willing, because I happen to know Mr. Dugard personally

03:16:52.600 | and have corresponded with Vaughan Lowe,

03:16:54.640 | I've heard their claim, I've read the report,

03:16:57.440 | I would say they make a very strong case,

03:17:00.840 | but let's agree, plausible.

03:17:04.440 | Now, here's a question.

03:17:08.600 | If somebody qualifies for an Olympic team,

03:17:13.600 | let's say a regional person qualifies for an Olympic team,

03:17:19.040 | it doesn't mean they're going to be on the Olympic team,

03:17:22.480 | it doesn't mean they're going to win a gold medal,

03:17:24.920 | a silver medal, or a bronze medal.

03:17:27.600 | - But they can swim, that's what you're saying.

03:17:29.000 | - No, I would say that's a very high bar.

03:17:31.720 | - You're saying they can swim.

03:17:32.560 | - To even qualify.

03:17:33.400 | - They can swim well enough to have a realistic prospect

03:17:36.320 | of winning a medal.

03:17:37.160 | - So, to even make it to plausible.

03:17:41.640 | - That is not true.

03:17:42.480 | That is not what plausible means.

03:17:44.680 | It is absolutely not, you're dead wrong.

03:17:46.880 | - Mr. Borelli, please don't teach me

03:17:49.920 | about the English language.

03:17:51.680 | - So, the declaration of Judge Poincare

03:17:54.160 | says that the court is not asked in the present phase.

03:17:58.440 | The court is not asked at this present phase

03:18:00.600 | of the proceedings to determine whether South Africa's

03:18:02.800 | allegations of genocide are well-founded.

03:18:05.400 | They're not well-founded.

03:18:06.800 | They're not even well-founded.

03:18:08.360 | The court is, you said that plausible was a high standard.

03:18:10.600 | It is absolutely not.

03:18:12.800 | It is a misrepresentation of the strength of the case

03:18:14.960 | against Israel, just like the majority

03:18:16.520 | of the quotes they have in this case are.

03:18:18.240 | And also, you said it was an extremely well-founded case.

03:18:20.080 | They spend like one fourth of all of the quotations,

03:18:22.720 | some even pulled from the Goldstone Report,

03:18:24.720 | that actually deal with the intent part.

03:18:28.280 | Which is, by the way, I think you guys,

03:18:29.840 | I don't know if you use the phrase, the dolo specialis,

03:18:31.680 | that the intentional part of genocide.

03:18:33.360 | - I don't know that term.

03:18:35.240 | - I think it's called dolo specialis.

03:18:37.000 | It's the most important part of genocide,

03:18:38.840 | which is proving the special,

03:18:39.920 | it is a highly special intent to commit genocide.

03:18:42.200 | It's possible that Israel could--

03:18:43.200 | - That's mens reum.

03:18:44.560 | - No.

03:18:45.720 | The mens reum, yes, I understand the state of mind,

03:18:48.440 | but for genocide, there is, it's called dolo specialis,

03:18:51.280 | it's a highly special intent.

03:18:52.920 | Did you read the case?

03:18:54.480 | It is a highly special intent to be convicted of genocide.

03:18:57.640 | Yes.

03:18:58.480 | - Please stop displaying your imbecility.

03:19:01.440 | - Okay, I'm sorry if you think the declaration

03:19:03.360 | of the judge is imbecile.

03:19:04.200 | - Don't put on public display that you're a moron.

03:19:07.560 | At least have the self-possession to shut up.

03:19:10.960 | Did I read the case?

03:19:11.800 | - I'm comfortable putting my display on camera,

03:19:13.800 | you're comfortable putting yours in books, okay?

03:19:16.160 | - I read the case around four times.

03:19:18.880 | I read all of the majority opinion, the declarations.

03:19:23.880 | I read Aaron Barak's declaration.

03:19:26.680 | - Then why are you lying

03:19:27.520 | and saying plausibles are by standard?

03:19:29.960 | - Because I said even reaching the benchmark

03:19:34.960 | of plausibility is a very high standard in the world.

03:19:41.400 | It's the equivalent of a regional player

03:19:45.320 | qualifying for an Olympics.

03:19:47.520 | It's still two steps removed.

03:19:49.800 | You may not be on the team and you may not get a medal,

03:19:54.000 | but to get qualified, which in this context

03:19:57.960 | is the equivalent of plausible,

03:20:00.680 | you must be doing something pretty horrible.

03:20:05.120 | And as it happens--

03:20:06.280 | - The court will rule on this.

03:20:08.760 | There was no genital.

03:20:09.600 | That's what the court will rule.

03:20:11.280 | Remember what I just told you.

03:20:12.920 | The court will rule--

03:20:13.760 | - I don't expect to be even around

03:20:15.000 | when the court reaches its final decision.

03:20:17.000 | - Why?

03:20:17.840 | - Why?

03:20:18.680 | It'll take a long, long time.

03:20:19.960 | - Two years, three years.

03:20:20.800 | - No, I don't think it'll take two or three years.

03:20:22.920 | - Bosnia, which was admittedly a special type of case

03:20:26.160 | because they were accusing Serbia

03:20:29.680 | of sponsoring the Bosnian Serbs.

03:20:31.560 | That took, I think, 17 years from 90--

03:20:35.480 | - I assume they'll take two or three years.

03:20:36.960 | - But the point you're making,

03:20:38.800 | so this is a legal--

03:20:39.640 | - I'm saying that something horrible must be happening

03:20:42.480 | to even achieve--

03:20:43.320 | - It is horrible.

03:20:44.160 | It's a war.

03:20:45.000 | - Yeah.

03:20:45.840 | - It's true, yes.

03:20:46.680 | - It's horrible.

03:20:47.520 | - They weren't rendering a ruling on the war.

03:20:50.720 | They were rendering a ruling on the genocide.

03:20:52.880 | - And I think the suggestion--

03:20:54.840 | - They said it was plausible.

03:20:55.680 | They also said it was plausible

03:20:56.720 | that Israel is committing a military operation as well.

03:20:59.000 | - Yeah, but I think the problem with your characterization

03:21:01.560 | is you're saying in so many words

03:21:03.320 | that South Africans basically only have to show up in court

03:21:06.080 | with a coherent statement.

03:21:07.280 | - Right, that is correct.

03:21:08.120 | - In today's atmosphere, that's probably correct.

03:21:10.520 | - They needed to do a lot more.

03:21:12.040 | - Not much more.

03:21:12.880 | - They needed to persuade--

03:21:13.720 | - The American judge?

03:21:14.560 | - In today's atmosphere--

03:21:15.400 | - The American judge?

03:21:16.240 | - The American judge?

03:21:17.080 | - They needed to persuade--

03:21:17.920 | - Judges go according to what the majority want to hear.

03:21:20.480 | - Yeah, but they needed--

03:21:21.320 | - That's why he's the president.

03:21:22.400 | - They needed to persuade the court

03:21:25.080 | that it was worth investing several years of their time

03:21:28.760 | in hearing this case.

03:21:29.600 | - They're probably well paid for it.

03:21:31.120 | - They're well paid whether they take this case or not.

03:21:33.880 | I mean, they have a full docket

03:21:37.400 | whether they accept or reject this case.

03:21:39.120 | And I think, I don't think we should--

03:21:41.600 | - Remember what I just said,

03:21:42.600 | they won't rule there was genocide.

03:21:44.320 | Remember what I said.

03:21:45.200 | - Also, I recommend people actually read the case

03:21:47.080 | and follow through a lot of the quotes,

03:21:48.400 | that they just don't show genocidal intent.

03:21:50.280 | - Mr. Perelli, brace yourself.

03:21:51.780 | - The Israeli minister of finance

03:21:53.200 | on the 8th of October, 2023.

03:21:54.880 | This is taken from the ICJ.

03:21:56.600 | This is from South Africa submission.

03:21:58.480 | Bezalel Smotrik, I can't read this.

03:22:00.240 | Stated--

03:22:01.080 | - Bezalel Smotrik.

03:22:01.900 | - There you go.

03:22:02.740 | Okay, at a meeting of the Israeli cabinet that quote,

03:22:03.580 | "We need to deal a blow that hasn't been seen in 50 years

03:22:06.440 | and take down Gaza," end quote.

03:22:08.280 | But again, if you click through and you read the source,

03:22:10.240 | their own linked source, it says as per this own source,

03:22:13.120 | quote, "The powerful finance minister,

03:22:14.920 | settler leader Bezalel Smotrik,"

03:22:16.840 | I can't pronounce his name,

03:22:17.680 | "Demanded at the cabinet meeting late Saturday

03:22:19.160 | that the army," quote, "Hit Hamas brutally

03:22:21.740 | and not take the matter of the captives

03:22:23.660 | into significant consideration," end quote.

03:22:25.540 | Quote, "In war, as in war, you have to be brutal," end quote.

03:22:28.460 | He was quoted as saying, quote, "We need to deal a blow

03:22:30.460 | that hasn't been seen in 50 years

03:22:31.780 | and take down Gaza," end quote.

03:22:33.420 | You can't strip the quotation of Hamas,

03:22:36.220 | a entity that you have one with,

03:22:37.540 | and then--

03:22:38.380 | - I think--

03:22:39.220 | - There's genocidal intent.

03:22:40.040 | - I think take down Gaza.

03:22:40.880 | - That's not genocidal intent.

03:22:41.720 | - Take down Gaza.

03:22:42.540 | - So when the Ukrainians say--

03:22:43.380 | - Take down Gaza.

03:22:44.220 | - When the Ukrainians say we need to defeat Russia.

03:22:45.040 | - Take down Gaza.

03:22:45.880 | - That's not genocidal.

03:22:46.720 | - No.

03:22:47.540 | - When the Ukrainians say we need to defeat Russia,

03:22:48.620 | is that genocidal?

03:22:49.460 | Do they mean killing all Russian citizens?

03:22:51.480 | - Professor Morris, here's another one.

03:22:53.400 | - It's ridiculous.

03:22:54.240 | - When the defense, yeah, ridiculous.

03:22:55.780 | - Yes, ridiculous.

03:22:56.620 | - The American judge--

03:22:58.480 | - He also doesn't determine policy, but that's--

03:23:00.320 | - The American judge, the American judge read--

03:23:04.120 | - You are holding the American judge to, you know--

03:23:06.360 | - Well, he was the president.

03:23:07.200 | - Yes, he'll appeal his own authority

03:23:08.440 | when it agrees with him, and we won't deal

03:23:09.760 | with the actual facts of the matter, ever.

03:23:11.920 | - The American judge read several of the quotes.

03:23:15.680 | - Look at the American--

03:23:16.520 | - Okay.

03:23:17.340 | - They may support today.

03:23:18.180 | They may support Trump.

03:23:19.000 | - Okay, look.

03:23:19.840 | - It shows you how worthy American judges are.

03:23:20.680 | - Professor Morris, Professor Morris,

03:23:22.600 | without going too far afield,

03:23:24.880 | if you heard a statement by the defense minister,

03:23:30.760 | the defense minister said we are going to prevent

03:23:35.000 | any food, water, fuel, or electricity from entering Gaza.

03:23:39.760 | - Did he do that?

03:23:40.600 | He wanted to make--

03:23:41.420 | - Did Israel do that?

03:23:42.260 | - Okay, no, I'm wondering.

03:23:43.200 | - What he said--

03:23:44.040 | - I'm asking you--

03:23:44.880 | - Isn't Israeli government policy?

03:23:45.720 | - Yeah, but we're talking about statements now, intent.

03:23:48.760 | How would you interpret that?

03:23:50.120 | - After 1,200 of your citizens are murdered

03:23:52.520 | the way they were, I would expect extreme statements

03:23:55.520 | by lots of politicians.

03:23:57.020 | - But you're--

03:23:57.860 | - By lots of politicians.

03:23:58.680 | - But you don't accept extreme Palestinian--

03:23:59.520 | - But that's not Israeli policy.

03:24:01.020 | - Wait, but you don't accept--

03:24:01.860 | - What he said isn't Israeli policy.

03:24:03.320 | - But you don't believe--

03:24:04.160 | - They let in water, they let in gas.

03:24:05.320 | - I'm sure--

03:24:06.160 | - But you don't accept--

03:24:06.980 | - Very true, very true.

03:24:07.820 | - But you don't accept extreme Palestinian statements

03:24:09.960 | after they lost their entire country,

03:24:11.960 | not just 1,200 people.

03:24:12.800 | - That's a good point.

03:24:14.560 | No, no, it's a good point.

03:24:15.400 | On that, on that moment, brief moment of agreement,

03:24:20.400 | let's just take a quick pause.

03:24:22.640 | We need a smoke break, we need a water break,

03:24:24.800 | we need a bathroom break.

03:24:25.640 | - Take down Gaza is not a genocide.

03:24:26.960 | - I don't know what it means.

03:24:27.800 | - To defeat Russia is a genocidal statement.

03:24:28.620 | - What does take down Gaza mean?

03:24:29.460 | - When we went to war with Iraq

03:24:30.440 | and we wanted to destroy Iraq,

03:24:31.480 | that was a genocidal statement.

03:24:32.920 | There's a reason why genocide is so,

03:24:34.480 | is such an importantly guarded concept

03:24:36.400 | and it's not to condemn every nation that goes to war.

03:24:38.640 | - Mr. Panel.

03:24:40.100 | - Wait, you do know how to pronounce my name.

03:24:41.680 | Are you mispronouncing it intentionally?

03:24:43.780 | - I made you into an Italian all the time.

03:24:45.440 | - I'm so touched by your solicitude for international law.

03:24:49.860 | - You should try learning it sometime.

03:24:50.960 | It would help you sort out a lot of the civilian deaths.

03:24:52.960 | - Unfortunately, 15 judges disagreed.

03:24:55.480 | - You could keep citing the judges.

03:24:56.960 | You should actually try reading the actual statements.

03:24:59.680 | - This is tiring.

03:25:00.680 | You've invited us to a tiring session.

03:25:03.720 | - Yeah, there you go.

03:25:05.600 | How are you guys doing?

03:25:06.840 | - Okay, okay.

03:25:08.000 | There are major things to discuss here,

03:25:11.040 | not just what some court is doing

03:25:13.040 | that I'm gonna judge in two years' time.

03:25:14.820 | - Yes, okay.

03:25:15.660 | So what you just said is my whole,

03:25:17.900 | one of the reasons why I feel so strongly

03:25:19.740 | about this particular conflict

03:25:21.220 | is because there are really important things to discuss,

03:25:22.980 | but they will never be discussed.

03:25:24.220 | - They're not really discussed.

03:25:25.060 | - We're not gonna talk about like Area A, B, and C

03:25:28.160 | or what a transference of territory,

03:25:29.420 | instead we're gonna talk about apartheid.

03:25:30.760 | We're not gonna talk about the differences

03:25:32.960 | in how do you conduct war in an urban environment

03:25:34.940 | where people use, we're just gonna talk about genocide.

03:25:36.580 | We're not gonna talk about what's a good solution

03:25:39.020 | for the Palestinians.

03:25:39.860 | We're just gonna say ethnic cleansing.

03:25:40.700 | - Is it possible to talk, be productive

03:25:42.480 | over the next two hours and talk about a solution?

03:25:44.520 | - About solutions, I have no idea what to say.

03:25:47.400 | I mean, I don't see any solutions.

03:25:50.060 | You know, if you wanted a positive end to this discussion,

03:25:52.600 | which is what you said at the beginning,

03:25:54.220 | I can't contribute to that 'cause I'm pessimistic.

03:25:57.080 | I don't see any way forward here.

03:25:59.200 | - But the lack of, the solution is easy.

03:26:01.560 | The reason why the solution is hard

03:26:02.840 | is because the histories and the myths are completely,

03:26:05.320 | there's a different factual record, right?

03:26:07.440 | - One of the things it'd be good to talk about solutions

03:26:09.960 | with the future is going back in all the times it has failed.

03:26:13.660 | So every time--

03:26:14.500 | - But even at that, we're probably not gonna agree.

03:26:15.740 | He's gonna say, you could write that,

03:26:16.820 | I can predict the whole line.

03:26:17.780 | He's gonna say from '93 to '99, he's gonna say

03:26:19.540 | Israel didn't adhere to the Oslo Accords ever.

03:26:21.780 | Settlement expansion continued,

03:26:23.620 | raids happened into the West Bank,

03:26:25.860 | that there was never a legitimate,

03:26:27.220 | that Netanyahu came in and violated the Y memorandum,

03:26:31.540 | the transparency, he's gonna say all of this,

03:26:33.180 | and he's not gonna bring up any of the Palestinian side.

03:26:34.500 | And then for Camp David, he's gonna say that,

03:26:36.620 | yeah, that Arafat was trying,

03:26:37.980 | that the maps and the territorial exchange

03:26:39.420 | wasn't good enough, that they were asking Palestinians

03:26:41.620 | to make all the concessions, that Israel would've, yeah.

03:26:44.560 | - Well, lay it all out, lay it out.

03:26:46.500 | - You do fall quickly, you know?

03:26:47.680 | - Yeah, I know, yeah.

03:26:48.780 | - Anyhow, my future book should interest you guys.

03:26:54.420 | - Oh, what are you working on?

03:26:55.860 | - No, not working on, it's actually going to come out.

03:26:58.980 | - Oh.

03:27:00.260 | - It deals with Israeli and Arab atrocities,

03:27:03.940 | war crimes, I call them, in the '48 war.

03:27:06.660 | - Oh, really? - That's my new book, yeah.

03:27:08.020 | Just deals with that subject.

03:27:09.340 | - Is this, 'cause I know you've also talked

03:27:14.020 | about the closure of the archives and stuff.

03:27:16.500 | - Well, it's marginal, it deals with that as well,

03:27:20.640 | but they have tried to seal off documents

03:27:23.060 | which had already used and seen.

03:27:25.380 | So now they don't let people see them, that's happened.

03:27:28.300 | But it's marginal in terms of its effect on--

03:27:32.020 | - Were the British archives useful for you,

03:27:34.180 | for this new book?

03:27:35.260 | - Well, for this list, it's mostly Israeli archives.

03:27:38.540 | The British and the Americans and the UN

03:27:40.340 | did deal with these subjects,

03:27:42.100 | but not as well as Israeli documents.

03:27:44.780 | - What's your casualty count for Deir Yassin?

03:27:48.620 | - It's about 100, I think there's agreement on that

03:27:50.620 | by Israelis and Arabs, 100, 105.

03:27:53.580 | - 'Cause before they were--

03:27:54.900 | - They used to say 245 or 254, those were the figures

03:27:58.340 | the British and the Arabs and the Haganah

03:28:00.540 | agreed on at the beginning.

03:28:02.140 | - Because the Red Cross, I think,

03:28:03.620 | was the one that first put out that number.

03:28:05.540 | - I don't remember, maybe it was, what's his name,

03:28:07.900 | Jacques Derainier, or maybe.

03:28:10.060 | Yeah, maybe he came up with that number.

03:28:13.500 | But it was just, they didn't count, they didn't count bodies.

03:28:16.380 | They just threw the number out,

03:28:17.660 | and everybody was happy to blame the Irgun and the Lehi

03:28:21.340 | for killing more Arabs than actually--

03:28:23.180 | - Well, and they put it to good use as well.

03:28:25.980 | - Well, they said that it helped

03:28:28.020 | precipitate more evacuations, so they were happy--

03:28:30.460 | - I think Begin and his memoirs--

03:28:31.300 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, they also used that number, yeah.

03:28:34.060 | - So first of all, thank you for that heated discussion

03:28:37.180 | about the present.

03:28:38.240 | I would love to go back into history

03:28:44.020 | in a way that informs what we can look for

03:28:46.860 | by way of hope for the future.

03:28:51.300 | So when has, in Israel and Palestine,

03:28:53.780 | have we been closest to something like a peace settlement?

03:28:58.340 | To something that, like where both sides would be happy

03:29:03.020 | and enable the flourishing of both peoples?

03:29:05.740 | - Well, from my knowledge of the 120 years or so of conflict,

03:29:11.920 | the closest I think the two sides have been

03:29:15.340 | to reaching some sort of settlement

03:29:17.620 | appears to have been in the year 2000,

03:29:20.820 | when Barack, and then subsequently Clinton,

03:29:25.220 | offered a two-state settlement

03:29:28.420 | to PLO, Palestinian Authority, chairman Yasser Arafat.

03:29:34.420 | And Arafat seemed to waver.

03:29:36.940 | He didn't immediately reject what was being offered,

03:29:41.940 | but ultimately came down at the end of Camp David

03:29:44.460 | in July 2000, he came down against the proposals,

03:29:48.140 | and Clinton, who said he wouldn't blame him later,

03:29:50.820 | blamed Arafat for bringing down the summit.

03:29:54.420 | And not reaching a solution there.

03:29:57.540 | But I think there on the table,

03:30:01.940 | certainly in the Clinton parameters of December 2000,

03:30:04.780 | which followed the proposals by Barack in July,

03:30:09.780 | the Palestinians were offered the best deal

03:30:13.600 | they're ever going to get from Israel,

03:30:15.260 | unless Israel is destroyed,

03:30:16.600 | and then there'll just be a Palestinian Arab state.

03:30:19.380 | But the best deal that Israel could ever offer them,

03:30:22.140 | they were offered, which essentially was 95%

03:30:25.420 | of the West Bank, East Jerusalem,

03:30:28.320 | half of the old city of Jerusalem,

03:30:30.220 | some sort of joint control of the Temple Mount,

03:30:33.620 | and the Gaza Strip, of course, in full,

03:30:36.100 | and the Palestinians said no to this deal.

03:30:38.620 | And nobody really knows why Arafat said no,

03:30:41.020 | that is, some people think he was trying to hold out

03:30:44.320 | for slightly better terms.

03:30:47.300 | But my reading is that he was constitutionally,

03:30:52.300 | psychologically incapable of signing off

03:30:55.060 | on a two-state deal, meaning acceptance

03:30:57.380 | of the existence of a Jewish state.

03:30:59.740 | This was really the problem.

03:31:01.460 | - Of Israel or of a Jewish state?

03:31:02.900 | - Of a Jewish state, the Jewish state of Israel.

03:31:04.900 | He wasn't willing to share Palestine with the Jews

03:31:07.700 | and put his name to that, I think he just couldn't do it.

03:31:11.460 | That's my reading.

03:31:12.620 | But some people say it was because the terms

03:31:14.900 | were insufficient and he was willing,

03:31:16.780 | but was waiting for slightly better terms.

03:31:19.260 | I don't buy that, I don't think so.

03:31:21.620 | But other people disagree with me on this.

03:31:24.080 | - What do you think?

03:31:25.580 | - Well, just briefly, in response,

03:31:28.620 | Arafat formally recognized Israel in 1993.

03:31:35.500 | I don't think, actually, that in 2000, 2001,

03:31:41.260 | a genuine resolution was on offer,

03:31:45.500 | because I think the maximum Israel was prepared to offer,

03:31:50.300 | admittedly more than it had been prepared

03:31:52.140 | to offer in the past, fell short of the minimum

03:31:55.700 | that the Palestinians considered

03:31:57.620 | to be a reasonable two-state settlement,

03:32:00.380 | bearing in mind that as of 1949,

03:32:04.860 | Israel controlled 78% of the British mandate of Palestine.

03:32:10.540 | The Palestinians were seeking a stay on the remaining 22%,

03:32:15.500 | and this was apparently too much for Israel.

03:32:18.420 | My response to your question would be--

03:32:20.660 | - Wait, wait, they were being offered

03:32:21.900 | something like 22 or 21%.

03:32:23.940 | - They were being offered, I think,

03:32:26.540 | less than a withdrawal to the 1967 borders

03:32:30.420 | with mutual and minor and reciprocal land swaps

03:32:34.620 | and the just resolution of--

03:32:37.060 | - The refugee problem was one of the problems.

03:32:39.140 | - Yes, you know, I worked for a number of years

03:32:43.620 | with International Crisis Group,

03:32:46.500 | and my boss at the time was Rob Malley,

03:32:48.740 | who was one of the American officials

03:32:50.820 | present at Camp David. - Was recently thrown out

03:32:53.300 | of the State Department or whatever.

03:32:55.380 | - The point I wanna make about Rob was,

03:32:59.460 | he wrote, I think, a very perceptive article in 2001

03:33:03.380 | in the New York Review of Books.

03:33:04.380 | I know that you and Ehud Barak have had a debate with him,

03:33:07.700 | but I think he gives a very compelling reason

03:33:11.140 | of why and how Camp David failed,

03:33:15.860 | but rather than going into that, I'll--

03:33:17.700 | - He wrote that together with Hussein Ara.

03:33:20.260 | - Hussein Ara, yes, who was not at Camp David.

03:33:23.020 | - Yes.

03:33:24.060 | - But in response to your question,

03:33:26.140 | I think there could have been a real possibility

03:33:33.300 | of Israeli-Palestinian and Arab-Israeli peace

03:33:37.820 | in the mid-1970s in the wake of the 1973 October War.

03:33:42.820 | I'll recall that in 1971, Moshe Dayan,

03:33:50.580 | Israel's defense minister at the time,

03:33:54.700 | full of triumphalism about Israel's victory in 1967,

03:34:00.140 | speaking to a group of Israeli military veterans,

03:34:03.300 | stated, "If I had to choose between Sharm el-Sheikh

03:34:08.300 | "without peace or peace without Sharm el-Sheikh,"

03:34:12.860 | this is referring to the resort in Egyptian Sinai,

03:34:17.020 | which was then under Israeli occupation,

03:34:19.100 | Dayan said, "I will choose for Sharm el-Sheikh

03:34:22.640 | "without peace."

03:34:23.900 | Then the 1973 war came along,

03:34:27.980 | and I think Israeli calculations

03:34:31.980 | began to change very significantly,

03:34:34.580 | and I think it was in that context

03:34:37.040 | that had there been a joint U.S.-Soviet push

03:34:42.040 | for an Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian resolution

03:34:53.660 | that incorporated both an Israeli withdrawal

03:34:56.900 | to the 1967 lines and the establishment

03:35:00.420 | of a Palestinian state in the occupied territories.

03:35:05.420 | I think there was a very reasonable prospect

03:35:09.940 | for that being achieved.

03:35:11.760 | It ended up being aborted, I think, for several reasons,

03:35:16.380 | and ultimately, the Egyptian president, Anwar Sadat,

03:35:22.400 | decided, for reasons we can discuss later,

03:35:26.720 | to launch a separate unilateral initiative

03:35:31.060 | for Israeli-Egyptian rather than Arab-Israeli peace,

03:35:35.660 | and I think once that set in motion,

03:35:38.480 | the prospects disappeared because Israel essentially

03:35:44.300 | saw its most powerful adversary removed from the equation

03:35:49.000 | and felt that this would give it a free hand

03:35:51.760 | in the occupied territories, also in Lebanon,

03:35:54.320 | to get rid of the PLO and so on.

03:35:56.680 | So you ask when were we closest,

03:36:01.680 | and I can't give you an answer of when we were closest.

03:36:04.800 | I can only tell you when I think we could have been close,

03:36:09.800 | and that was a lost opportunity.

03:36:14.320 | If we look at the situation today,

03:36:16.600 | there's been a lot of discussion

03:36:19.040 | about a two-state settlement.

03:36:21.240 | My own view, and I've written about this,

03:36:24.000 | I don't buy the arguments of the naysayers

03:36:29.120 | that we have passed the so-called point of no return

03:36:32.800 | with respect to a two-state settlement.

03:36:35.200 | Certainly, if you look at the Israeli position

03:36:39.920 | in the occupied territories,

03:36:42.120 | I would argue it's more tenuous

03:36:44.360 | than was the French position in Algeria in 1954,

03:36:48.560 | than was the British position in Ireland in 1916,

03:36:52.280 | than was the Ethiopian position in Eritrea in 1990.

03:36:57.280 | And so, as a matter of practicality,

03:37:00.480 | as a matter of principle,

03:37:02.520 | I do think the establishment of a Palestinian state

03:37:07.520 | in the occupied territories remains realistic.

03:37:11.980 | I think the question that we now need to ask ourselves,

03:37:15.800 | it's one I'm certainly asking myself since October 7th,

03:37:20.800 | and looking at Israel's genocidal campaign,

03:37:25.160 | but also looking at larger questions,

03:37:27.000 | is it desirable?

03:37:28.760 | Can you have peace with what increasingly

03:37:33.640 | appears to be an irrational, genocidal state

03:37:40.000 | that seeks to confront and resolve

03:37:43.120 | each and every political challenge

03:37:45.000 | with violence, and that reacts to its failure

03:37:49.760 | to achieve solutions to political challenges

03:37:54.540 | with violence by applying even more violence,

03:37:57.620 | that has an insatiable lust for Palestinian territory,

03:38:02.080 | that a genocidal apartheid state

03:38:07.160 | that seems increasingly incapable

03:38:10.480 | of even conceiving of peaceful coexistence

03:38:14.160 | with the other people on that land.

03:38:17.860 | So I'm very pessimistic that a solution is possible.

03:38:22.900 | I look at, I grew up in Western Europe

03:38:26.800 | in the long shadow of the Second World War.

03:38:30.400 | I think we can all agree that there could have been

03:38:33.840 | no peace in Europe had certain regimes

03:38:38.760 | on that continent not been removed from power.

03:38:42.680 | I look at Southeast Asia in the late 1970s,

03:38:47.040 | and I think we're all agreed that there could not

03:38:50.120 | have been peace in that region

03:38:51.800 | had the Khmer Rouge not been ousted.

03:38:55.560 | I look at Southern Africa during the 1990s,

03:38:58.660 | and I think we can all be agreed

03:39:01.360 | that had the white minority regimes

03:39:03.400 | that ruled Zimbabwe and South Africa not been dismantled,

03:39:08.820 | there could not have been peace in that region.

03:39:11.520 | And although I think it's worth having a discussion,

03:39:14.440 | I do think it's now a legitimate question to ask,

03:39:19.400 | can there be peace without dismantling the Zionist regime?

03:39:24.400 | And I make a very clear distinction

03:39:30.280 | between the Israeli state and its institutions

03:39:32.540 | on the one hand, and the Israeli people,

03:39:35.800 | who I think regardless of our discussion about the history,

03:39:41.080 | I think you can now talk about an Israeli people

03:39:43.560 | and a people that have developed rights over time,

03:39:48.560 | and a formula for peaceful coexistence with them

03:39:53.560 | will need to be found, which is a separate matter

03:39:58.640 | from dismantling the Israeli state and its institutions.

03:40:03.000 | And again, I haven't reached clear conclusions about this,

03:40:06.060 | except to say as a practical matter,

03:40:09.240 | I think a two-state settlement remains feasible,

03:40:14.240 | but I think there are very legitimate questions

03:40:17.800 | about its desirability,

03:40:19.640 | and about whether peace can be achieved in the Middle East

03:40:25.080 | with the persistence of an irrational,

03:40:29.400 | genocidal, apartheid regime,

03:40:33.160 | particularly because Israeli society

03:40:36.120 | is beginning to develop many extremely, extremely

03:40:41.120 | distasteful, supremacist, dehumanizing aspects

03:40:49.880 | that I think also stand in the way of coexistence

03:40:53.680 | that are being fed by this regime.

03:40:57.240 | - So if you look back into history,

03:41:01.000 | when were we closest to peace,

03:41:02.840 | and do you draw any hope from any of them?

03:41:06.000 | - Um, I feel like in 2000,

03:41:08.080 | I feel like the deal that was present,

03:41:10.640 | at least at the end of the Taba summit,

03:41:12.480 | I think in terms of what Israel,

03:41:14.640 | I think had the appetite to give,

03:41:16.240 | and what the Palestinians would have gotten

03:41:17.640 | would have definitely been the most agreeable

03:41:19.680 | between the two parties.

03:41:20.920 | I don't know if in '73,

03:41:24.440 | I'm not sure if the appetite would have ever been there

03:41:26.680 | for the Arab states to negotiate alongside the Palestinians.

03:41:30.400 | I know that in Jordan,

03:41:32.440 | there was no love for the Palestinians after 1970,

03:41:35.320 | after Black September.

03:41:36.920 | I know that Sadat had no love for the Palestinians

03:41:39.480 | due to their association with the Muslim Brotherhoods,

03:41:43.120 | attempted assassinations in Egypt.

03:41:46.640 | - Sorry, which?

03:41:47.640 | PLO and the Muslim Brotherhood?

03:41:49.480 | - Sadat was upset because there were attempted assassinations

03:41:52.240 | by people in, oh no, an assassination.

03:41:54.800 | It was a personal friend of his, Yusuf al-Sibai,

03:41:57.240 | I can't pronounce that.

03:41:58.080 | He was assassinated in Cyprus by a Palestinian squad.

03:42:00.080 | - He was killed by the Abu Nidal organization,

03:42:01.720 | which was not part of the PLO.

03:42:02.720 | - Admittedly, yeah, he says as much.

03:42:04.040 | Belongs to a center group, not the PLO directly,

03:42:05.720 | but I think that there was a history

03:42:08.040 | of the Palestinians sometimes fighting

03:42:11.320 | with their neighboring states that were hosting them

03:42:13.360 | if they weren't getting the political concessions

03:42:14.960 | they wanted.

03:42:16.240 | The assassination of the Jordanian king in '51

03:42:18.080 | might be another example of that in Jordan.

03:42:20.760 | It feels like over a long period of time,

03:42:23.040 | it feels like the Palestinians have been kind of told

03:42:25.920 | from the neighboring Arab states

03:42:27.440 | that if they just continue to enact violence,

03:42:30.720 | whether in Israel or abroad,

03:42:32.480 | that eventually a state will materialize somehow.

03:42:35.560 | I don't think it's gotten them any closer to a state.

03:42:37.640 | If anything, I think it's taken them farther and farther

03:42:39.440 | and farther away from one.

03:42:41.040 | And I think as long as the hyperbolic language

03:42:43.520 | is continually employed internationally,

03:42:45.720 | the idea that Israel is committing a genocide,

03:42:47.720 | the idea that there is an apartheid,

03:42:49.160 | the idea that they live in a concentration camp,

03:42:51.320 | all of these words, I think, further the narrative

03:42:53.520 | for the Palestinians that Israel is an evil state

03:42:55.600 | that needs to be dismantled.

03:42:57.440 | I mean, you said as much about the institution, at least,

03:42:59.360 | for the Zionist government.

03:43:00.760 | Israel's government is probably not going anywhere.

03:43:02.640 | All of the other surrounding Arab states have accepted that,

03:43:04.640 | or at least most of them down in the Gulf,

03:43:06.960 | Egypt and Jordan, have accepted that.

03:43:08.680 | The Palestinians need to accept it too.

03:43:10.440 | The Israeli state or the state apparatus

03:43:12.960 | is not going anywhere.

03:43:13.840 | And at some point, they need to realize like,

03:43:15.280 | hey, we need a leader that's gonna come out

03:43:17.120 | and represent us, represent all of us,

03:43:19.160 | is willing to take political risks,

03:43:20.680 | is willing to negotiate some lasting peace for us.

03:43:23.720 | And it's not gonna be the international community

03:43:26.120 | or some invocation of international law

03:43:28.800 | or some invocation of morality or justice

03:43:30.800 | that's going to extricate us from this conflict.

03:43:32.400 | It's gonna take some actual difficult political maneuvering

03:43:35.240 | on the ground.

03:43:36.080 | - Of accepting Israel.

03:43:37.480 | - Of accepting Israel, yeah.

03:43:38.320 | - Which they formally did in 1993.

03:43:41.120 | - Which they formally did in 1993, yeah,

03:43:42.880 | but then no lasting peace came after that in 2000.

03:43:46.920 | - No, because 1993 was not a peace agreement.

03:43:50.520 | - Sure, the Oslo Accords weren't--

03:43:51.680 | - Were an interim-- - Didn't have

03:43:52.520 | a final solution, of course.

03:43:53.340 | - Were an interim agreement.

03:43:55.320 | And Palestinians actually began clamoring

03:43:59.840 | for commencing the permanent status resolutions on schedule.

03:44:04.840 | And the Israelis kept delaying them.

03:44:08.040 | In fact, they only began, I believe in '99,

03:44:12.480 | under American pressure on the Israelis.

03:44:15.160 | - I think you're being a bit one-sided.

03:44:17.320 | Both sides didn't fulfill the promise of Oslo

03:44:21.800 | and the steps needed for Oslo.

03:44:23.720 | There was Palestinian terrorism,

03:44:25.520 | which accompanied Israel's expansion of settlements

03:44:28.120 | and other things.

03:44:29.040 | The two things fed each other and led to what happened

03:44:33.440 | in 2000, which was a breakdown of the talks altogether

03:44:36.720 | when the Palestinians said no.

03:44:38.440 | But I think there's, I don't agree incidentally

03:44:41.180 | with this definition of Israel or the Israeli state

03:44:44.560 | as apartheid, it's not.

03:44:46.780 | There is some sort of apartheid going on in the West Bank.

03:44:49.600 | The Israeli regime itself is not an apartheid regime.

03:44:52.400 | That's just nonsense by any definition of apartheid,

03:44:55.520 | which-- - Well, by the formal definition,

03:44:57.160 | I think it qualifies.

03:44:58.520 | - No, it doesn't qualify.

03:45:00.160 | Apartheid is a race-based distinction

03:45:03.560 | between different segments of the population,

03:45:06.320 | and some of them don't have any representation at all,

03:45:09.200 | like the blacks in South Africa.

03:45:10.960 | No rights at all. - That's not a requirement.

03:45:12.800 | - In Israel itself, the minority, the Arabs,

03:45:17.100 | do have representation, do have rights, and so on.

03:45:20.200 | I don't think Israel is also genocidal.

03:45:21.960 | I don't think it's been genocidal.

03:45:23.200 | It wasn't so in '48, it wasn't so in '67,

03:45:26.320 | and it hasn't been recently, in my view.

03:45:28.520 | And talk about dismantling Israel,

03:45:31.440 | and that's what you're talking about,

03:45:33.760 | is, I think Stephen said it correctly, is counterproductive.

03:45:38.400 | It just pushes Israelis further away

03:45:40.640 | from willing to give Palestinians anything.

03:45:44.200 | - Please, Norm, tell me you have--

03:45:46.360 | - Something optimistic to say. - Optimistic to say.

03:45:48.600 | - I, even though I agree, I've thought about it a lot,

03:45:52.720 | and I agree with Muin's analysis.

03:45:57.080 | I'm not really in the business of punditry.

03:46:00.640 | I'd rather look at the historical record

03:46:02.640 | where I feel more comfortable, and I feel on terra firma.

03:46:06.680 | So I'd like to just go through that.

03:46:09.300 | I don't quite, I agree and I disagree

03:46:12.380 | with Muin on the '73 issue.

03:46:15.120 | After the 1973 war, it was clear that Israel

03:46:20.120 | was surprised by what happened during the war,

03:46:23.760 | and it took a big hit.

03:46:28.760 | The estimates are, I don't know what numbers you use,

03:46:31.280 | but I hear between 2,000 and 3,000 Israeli soldiers

03:46:34.720 | were killed during the 1970s.

03:46:36.680 | - It was 2,500.

03:46:38.160 | - Yeah, 2,700.

03:46:39.240 | - Okay, so I got it right.

03:46:40.560 | I read different numbers.

03:46:41.920 | That's a very large number of Israelis who were killed.

03:46:46.920 | There were moments at the beginning of the war

03:46:49.120 | where there was a fear that this might be it.

03:46:52.080 | - No, no, there wasn't, there wasn't, there wasn't.

03:46:53.740 | - No, the Israelis-- - This is nonsense.

03:46:55.440 | Everybody forgets Israel's atomic weaponry.

03:46:57.920 | - I know, but--

03:46:58.920 | - So how could they have been defeated?

03:47:00.400 | - Didn't Dayan talk about the collapse of the Third Temple?

03:47:03.280 | - He did, but it was hysterical and silly

03:47:06.080 | because Israel had atomic weapons.

03:47:07.560 | They wanted to stop the Syrians or the Egyptians.

03:47:09.560 | - But we're talking about perceptions here.

03:47:11.440 | I'm not saying, I can't tell you

03:47:12.640 | if he was hysterical or not.

03:47:14.000 | - No, he was.

03:47:14.840 | For a day, he was hysterical.

03:47:15.660 | - I wasn't in the same room with him.

03:47:16.500 | - For a day, he was hysterical.

03:47:17.340 | - But I'm just saying, let's not bog down on that.

03:47:20.240 | The war is over, and when President Carter comes into power,

03:47:25.240 | Carter was an extremely smart guy,

03:47:27.360 | Jimmy Carter, extremely smart guy,

03:47:29.440 | and he was very fixed on details, extreme.

03:47:32.120 | He was probably the most impressive

03:47:33.480 | of modern American presidents,

03:47:35.280 | in my opinion, by a wide margin.

03:47:37.480 | And he was determined to resolve the conflict

03:47:41.080 | on a big scale, on the Arab-Israeli scale.

03:47:44.240 | On the Palestinian issue, he wouldn't go past

03:47:48.300 | what he called a Palestinian homeland.

03:47:50.520 | He wouldn't accept--

03:47:51.340 | - Palestinian national home.

03:47:52.180 | - On the Palestinian national home,

03:47:54.000 | he wouldn't go as far as a Palestinian state.

03:47:56.840 | I'm not going to go into the details of that.

03:47:59.880 | I don't think realistically,

03:48:01.560 | given the political balance of forces,

03:48:03.440 | that was going to happen, but that's a separate issue.

03:48:06.980 | Let's get to the issue at hand,

03:48:08.600 | namely, what is the obstacle,

03:48:10.560 | or what has been the obstacle since the early 1970s.

03:48:14.160 | Since roughly 1974, the Palestinians have accepted

03:48:18.260 | the two-state settlement on the June 1967 border.

03:48:21.960 | Now, as it got, as more pressure was exerted on Israel,

03:48:26.960 | because the Palestinians seemed reasonable,

03:48:30.720 | the Israelis, to quote the Israeli political scientist,

03:48:33.960 | Avner Yaniv, he's since passed from the scene,

03:48:36.760 | he said, Yaniv in his book, "Dilemmas of Security,"

03:48:39.800 | he said that the big Israeli fear

03:48:43.760 | was what he called the Palestinian peace offensive.

03:48:47.880 | That was their worry,

03:48:49.360 | that the Palestinians were becoming too moderate.

03:48:53.840 | And unless you understand that,

03:48:56.400 | you can't understand the June 1982 Lebanon War.

03:49:00.880 | The purpose of the June 1982 Lebanon War

03:49:04.080 | was to liquidate the PLO in Southern Lebanon,

03:49:07.720 | because they were too moderate,

03:49:10.860 | the Palestinian peace offensive.

03:49:13.860 | I'm going to have to fast forward.

03:49:15.840 | There are many events.

03:49:16.880 | There was the first Intifada, then there's the Oslo Accord,

03:49:20.400 | and let's now go to the heart of the issue,

03:49:25.000 | namely, the 2000-2001 negotiations.

03:49:30.080 | Well, the negotiations are divided into three parts

03:49:35.080 | for the sake of listeners.

03:49:37.840 | There's Camp David in July 2000,

03:49:41.200 | there are the Clinton parameters in December 2000,

03:49:45.000 | and then there are negotiations in Taba in Egypt,

03:49:49.320 | Taba in Egypt in 2001.

03:49:52.240 | Those are the three phases.

03:49:54.640 | Now, I have studied the record

03:49:57.200 | probably to the point of insanity,

03:50:00.560 | because there are so many details you have to master.

03:50:03.760 | - I'll vouch for that, the insanity part.

03:50:06.640 | - Actually, I will vouch for it.

03:50:08.640 | I will personally vouch for it.

03:50:10.280 | There is one extensive record from that whole period

03:50:16.800 | from 2000 to, you could say, 2007,

03:50:21.000 | and that is what came to be called the Palestine Papers,

03:50:24.540 | which are about 15,000 pages

03:50:28.160 | of all the records of the negotiations.

03:50:31.760 | I have read through all of them, every single page,

03:50:36.080 | and this is what I find.

03:50:38.440 | If you look at Shlomo Ben-Ami's book,

03:50:40.960 | which I have with me, "Prophets Without Honor,"

03:50:43.920 | it's his last book, he says going into Camp David,

03:50:48.920 | that means July, going into Camp David, July 2000,

03:50:54.280 | he said the Israelis were willing to return about,

03:50:59.000 | not return, but will withdraw from 90, relinquish,

03:51:03.080 | 92% of the West Bank.

03:51:04.880 | - Ben-Ami was at Camp David.

03:51:06.280 | - Yeah, Ben-Ami, he was at Taba.

03:51:10.040 | Oh yeah, he was also at Camp David.

03:51:11.800 | They wanted, Israel wanted to keep

03:51:15.820 | all the major settlement blocks.

03:51:17.880 | It wanted to keep roughly 8% of the West Bank,

03:51:24.640 | they were allowing for, you put it at 84 to 90%

03:51:29.640 | in your books, they put it at roughly 92%.

03:51:35.160 | Israel was willing to give up.

03:51:37.280 | - It also depends how you calculate.

03:51:39.160 | - Yeah, that was another issue.

03:51:40.000 | - It also depends what stage of Camp David,

03:51:41.960 | 'cause there were two weeks.

03:51:43.080 | - Yeah, I'll get to that.

03:51:44.520 | - Proposals changed during those two weeks.

03:51:46.120 | - So Israel wants to keep all the major settlement blocks.

03:51:49.560 | - Means the border area of the West Bank.

03:51:51.480 | - Well, not the border, we have Ariel,

03:51:54.040 | we have Maale Adumim, we have as Condoleezza Rice

03:51:59.040 | called Ariel, she said it was a dagger

03:52:02.920 | into the heart of the West Bank.

03:52:05.060 | So they want to keep 8% of the land,

03:52:10.060 | they want to keep the settlement blocks,

03:52:13.040 | they want to keep 80% of the settlers,

03:52:17.320 | they will not budge an inch on the question of refugees.

03:52:22.160 | To quote Ehud Barak in the article he co-authored with you

03:52:27.000 | in the New York Review of Books,

03:52:28.920 | we will accept, and I think the quote's accurate,

03:52:31.480 | no moral, legal, or historical responsibility

03:52:34.720 | for what happened to the refugees.

03:52:36.520 | So forget about even allowing refugees to return,

03:52:39.520 | we accept no moral, legal, or historical responsibility

03:52:42.960 | for the refugees.

03:52:44.280 | And on Jerusalem, they wanted to keep

03:52:47.360 | large parts of Jerusalem.

03:52:50.240 | Now, how do we judge who is reasonable and who is not?

03:52:55.240 | Ben-Ami says, "I think the Israeli offer was reasonable."

03:53:00.880 | That's how he sees it.

03:53:02.740 | But what is the standard of reasonable?

03:53:05.720 | My standard is, what does international law say?

03:53:10.480 | International law says the settlements are illegal.

03:53:14.340 | Israel wants to keep all the settlement blocks.

03:53:19.400 | 15 judges, all 15, in the Wu decision in 2004,

03:53:24.400 | in July 2004, all 15 judges,

03:53:28.640 | including the American judge Bergenthal,

03:53:30.960 | ruled the settlements are illegal under international law.

03:53:36.600 | They want to keep 80% of the settlers.

03:53:40.520 | Under international law,

03:53:42.520 | all the settlers are illegal in the West Bank.

03:53:46.960 | They want to keep large parts of East Jerusalem.

03:53:51.960 | But under international law,

03:53:55.520 | East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory.

03:54:00.040 | That's what the international--

03:54:01.480 | - No, not Palestinian, because there was no Palestine.

03:54:03.920 | - Okay, under--

03:54:05.120 | - There's never been a Palestinian state.

03:54:06.960 | How could it be Palestinian?

03:54:08.200 | - I listened patiently to you.

03:54:09.920 | - Sorry.

03:54:11.160 | - Under international law, if you read the decision,

03:54:15.520 | all territory, the 2004 war decision,

03:54:20.520 | all territory beyond the Green Line,

03:54:25.080 | which includes East Jerusalem,

03:54:27.680 | is occupied Palestinian territory.

03:54:31.960 | - Except in the Golan Heights.

03:54:34.040 | - The designated unit,

03:54:35.720 | according to the International Court of Justice,

03:54:38.720 | the designated unit for Palestinian self-determination.

03:54:43.040 | And they deny any right whatsoever on the right of return.

03:54:48.880 | The maximum, I don't want to go into the details now,

03:54:52.960 | the maximum formal offer was by Ehud Omar in 2008.

03:54:59.760 | He offered 5,000 refugees could return

03:55:04.160 | under what was called family reunification,

03:55:07.480 | 5,000 in the course of five years,

03:55:11.760 | and no recognition of any Israeli responsibility.

03:55:15.960 | So if you use as the baseline

03:55:19.520 | what the UN General Assembly has said

03:55:25.000 | and what the International Court of Justice has said,

03:55:29.240 | if you use that baseline, international law,

03:55:33.360 | by that baseline, all the concessions

03:55:38.240 | came from the Palestinian side.

03:55:41.320 | Every single concession came from the Palestinian side.

03:55:46.160 | None came from the Israeli side.

03:55:49.280 | They may have accepted less than what they wanted,

03:55:56.240 | but it was still beyond

03:55:59.400 | what international law allocated to them.

03:56:04.040 | Now, you say--

03:56:05.520 | - Allocated to the Palestinians.

03:56:06.360 | - Allocated to the Palestinians, yes.

03:56:08.600 | Thank you for the clarification.

03:56:10.520 | Now, about Arafat,

03:56:13.120 | like the mufti, never liked the guy.

03:56:16.960 | I think that was one of the only disagreements

03:56:19.720 | Muin and I had when Arafat passed.

03:56:22.320 | You were a little sentimental, I was not.

03:56:25.000 | Never liked the guy.

03:56:26.360 | But politics, you don't have to like the guy.

03:56:29.280 | There was no question, nobody argues it,

03:56:33.120 | that whenever the negotiations started up,

03:56:36.840 | the Palestinians just kept saying the same things.

03:56:39.880 | - No.

03:56:40.720 | - No.

03:56:41.560 | - They kept saying no.

03:56:42.400 | - No.

03:56:43.240 | Professor Morris, with due respect, incorrect.

03:56:46.160 | They kept saying international legitimacy,

03:56:49.480 | international law, UN resolutions.

03:56:53.120 | They said, "We already gave you what the law required.

03:56:57.480 | "We gave that in 1988, November 1988,

03:57:01.440 | "and then ratified again at Oslo in 1993."

03:57:05.680 | And they said, "Now we want

03:57:09.840 | "what was promised us under international law."

03:57:14.840 | And that was the one point

03:57:16.760 | where everybody on the other side agreed.

03:57:19.640 | Clinton, "Don't talk to me about international law."

03:57:23.800 | Livni, during the Omar administration,

03:57:27.480 | she said, "I studied international law.

03:57:29.680 | "I don't believe in international law."

03:57:32.040 | Every single member on the other side,

03:57:35.680 | they didn't want to hear from international law.

03:57:39.480 | And to my thinking, that that is the only reasonable baseline

03:57:45.920 | for trying to resolve the conflict

03:57:48.920 | and Israel has, along with the U.S.

03:57:51.440 | - When has international law been relevant

03:57:55.320 | to any conflict, basically, in the world?

03:57:57.400 | - Hey, that's why--

03:57:58.240 | - Over the last 150 years.

03:57:59.080 | - That's why the Palestinians have to recognize Israel

03:58:01.760 | because that's international law.

03:58:03.240 | - No, but international laws are meaningless.

03:58:04.680 | - That was UN resolution 242.

03:58:06.000 | - Conflicts are not solved by international law

03:58:08.200 | or in accordance with international law.

03:58:09.840 | - Yeah, but then, Professor Morris,

03:58:12.520 | for argument's sake, let's agree on that.

03:58:16.480 | Strictly for argument's sake, what's the alternative?

03:58:20.920 | Dennis Ross said, "We're going to decide who gets what

03:58:25.920 | "on the basis of needs."

03:58:30.200 | So he says, "Israel needs this, Israel needs that,

03:58:33.480 | "Israel needs that."

03:58:34.920 | Dennis Ross decided to be the philosopher king.

03:58:38.560 | He's going to decide on the basis of needs.

03:58:43.240 | Well, if you asked me, since Gaza's one

03:58:46.160 | of the densest places on Earth, it needs--

03:58:49.920 | - Tel Aviv.

03:58:50.760 | - Yes, it needs--

03:58:51.600 | - It needs part of Sinai.

03:58:52.440 | - It needs a nice big chunk--

03:58:53.960 | - Of Sinai.

03:58:55.160 | - Well, not Sinai.

03:58:56.280 | - That's what it actually needs.

03:58:57.440 | - Okay, I don't even wanna go there.

03:59:00.560 | It needs a nice big chunk,

03:59:02.400 | but I have to accept international law says no, okay?

03:59:06.400 | - International law is irrelevant.

03:59:08.060 | - Now, Ben-Ami says, "I think the Israeli offer

03:59:12.560 | "was reasonable."

03:59:14.520 | Okay, that's--

03:59:16.440 | - And he's a reasonable guy.

03:59:17.280 | - That's it.

03:59:18.100 | - You know that.

03:59:18.940 | - Even though, okay, I don't wanna go there.

03:59:20.400 | I've debated him and partly agree with you.

03:59:23.240 | But who decides what's reasonable?

03:59:27.320 | I think the international community

03:59:30.160 | in its political incarnation, the General Assembly,

03:59:35.560 | the Security Council, all those UN Security Council

03:59:39.460 | resolutions saying the settlements are illegal,

03:59:42.180 | annexation of East Jerusalem is null and void,

03:59:45.740 | and the International Court of Justice.

03:59:48.660 | That, to me, is a reasonable standard,

03:59:52.380 | and by that standard, the Palestinians

03:59:55.140 | were asked to make concessions,

03:59:56.660 | which I consider unreasonable,

03:59:59.060 | or the international community considers unreasonable.

04:00:01.900 | - I think that the issue is when you apply

04:00:04.420 | international law or international standards,

04:00:06.680 | I wouldn't say what Benny Morris says

04:00:08.360 | that they're irrelevant,

04:00:10.000 | but I think that these have to be seen

04:00:11.320 | as informing the conversation.

04:00:12.640 | I don't think these are the final shape

04:00:14.200 | of the conversation.

04:00:15.400 | I don't think historically Israel has ever negotiated

04:00:17.900 | within the strict bounds of whether we're talking

04:00:20.880 | Resolution 242, whether we're talking

04:00:22.560 | about any General Assembly resolutions.

04:00:24.720 | That's just not how these negotiations tend to go.

04:00:28.040 | You might consider international opinion on things,

04:00:29.900 | but at the end of the day,

04:00:30.740 | it's the bilateral negotiations,

04:00:32.240 | oftentimes historically started in secret,

04:00:33.960 | independent of the international community,

04:00:36.240 | that end up shaping what the final agreements look like.

04:00:38.600 | I think the issue with this broad appeal

04:00:40.200 | to international law is, again,

04:00:42.880 | going back to my earlier point

04:00:43.860 | about all of the euphemistic words,

04:00:45.520 | all it simply does is drive Palestinian expectations

04:00:48.600 | up to a level that is never going to be satisfied.

04:00:52.320 | For instance, you can throw that ICJ opinion all you want.

04:00:54.780 | It was an advisory opinion.

04:00:55.760 | That came in 2004.

04:00:57.180 | Have Palestinians gained more or less land

04:00:59.480 | since that 2004 advisory opinion was issued?

04:01:01.800 | - So what would your standard be then?

04:01:03.560 | Both sides have to have a delegation

04:01:05.440 | that confronts each other,

04:01:06.380 | and they assess the realistic conditions on the ground,

04:01:09.180 | and they try to figure out,

04:01:10.160 | within the confines of international law,

04:01:12.320 | and then what both sides are reasonable for.

04:01:14.280 | But for instance, this statement of full retreat

04:01:16.680 | from the West Bank, what is it, 400,000 settlers?

04:01:18.380 | How many settlers live in the West Bank now?

04:01:20.000 | - Probably half a million.

04:01:20.840 | - Yeah, you're gonna--

04:01:21.680 | - Depends if you include the Jerusalem suburbs or not.

04:01:23.540 | - Four or 500,000 people are never--

04:01:25.120 | - I think it's 700,000.

04:01:25.960 | - With the Jerusalem suburbs, perhaps.

04:01:27.580 | - Sure.

04:01:28.420 | - It is now called--

04:01:29.240 | - Half a million people are--

04:01:30.080 | - Jerusalem, not settlements.

04:01:31.080 | - I know that, but that's not what the law.

04:01:32.880 | The law calls it null and void.

04:01:34.520 | - Let me just--

04:01:35.360 | - We can say whatever we want

04:01:36.200 | until we're blue in the face,

04:01:37.520 | but like there's half a million Israeli people

04:01:39.560 | are not being expelled from the West Bank.

04:01:40.400 | - My response, you're basically saying,

04:01:42.440 | if I understand correctly,

04:01:44.000 | there's only one way to resolve this,

04:01:45.680 | and that is through direct bilateral negotiations.

04:01:48.040 | - Probably, yeah.

04:01:48.880 | - Okay, so--

04:01:50.280 | - Or ideally, but--

04:01:51.120 | - I've taken over your house, okay?

04:01:54.180 | You're not gonna go to the police

04:01:55.760 | because the law is only of limited value.

04:01:59.560 | So you come over and sit in what is now my living room

04:02:04.240 | that used to be your living room, and we negotiate.

04:02:07.600 | The problem there is that you're not gonna get anything

04:02:11.000 | unless I agree to it, and standards and norms

04:02:15.440 | and law and all the rest of it be damned.

04:02:17.760 | So you need to take into account

04:02:20.920 | that when you're advocating bilateral negotiations

04:02:25.080 | that effectively that gives each of the parties veto power.

04:02:29.800 | And in the current circumstances,

04:02:33.120 | the Palestinians have already recognized Israel.

04:02:35.880 | They have--

04:02:38.720 | - You keep bringing that up

04:02:39.560 | like it's a significant concession.

04:02:40.840 | - It's not true, it's not true.

04:02:41.680 | - And even if--

04:02:42.520 | - It's not even true.

04:02:43.360 | - It doesn't, but it doesn't,

04:02:44.320 | the recognition from Palestine isn't doing anything for--

04:02:48.400 | - Hamas totally rejects--

04:02:49.520 | - I'm not talking about Hamas.

04:02:50.560 | - Hamas is the majority among the Palestinian people.

04:02:53.600 | They won the elections in 2006.

04:02:55.760 | Every opinion--

04:02:56.600 | - They won a majority of the seats.

04:02:57.960 | - Yes, exactly.

04:02:58.800 | - They didn't win a majority of the votes.

04:02:59.640 | - Every opinion poll today says the majority

04:03:01.880 | of Palestinians support the Hamas.

04:03:03.880 | - That sounds right.

04:03:04.720 | - The Hamas absolutely rejects Israel.

04:03:06.320 | So if Arafat, in 1993 or whatever,

04:03:10.960 | issued a sort of recognition of Israel--

04:03:12.800 | - It wasn't a sort of recognition.

04:03:13.640 | - Okay, a recognition of Israel, it's meaningless.

04:03:16.400 | It's meaningless.

04:03:17.240 | - It's meaningless.

04:03:18.080 | - And anyhow, I don't believe

04:03:19.360 | that Arafat was sincere about it.

04:03:21.120 | - Does it matter what you or I think

04:03:22.600 | about what you felt? - No, most Israelis do

04:03:23.760 | and that does matter.

04:03:24.720 | - Okay, so--

04:03:25.560 | - That does matter.

04:03:26.400 | But Hamas says no and Hamas is the majority--

04:03:28.600 | - So for years, the Israeli and U.S. demand

04:03:33.600 | was that the Palestinians recognize 24238.

04:03:38.960 | They did, but you're saying,

04:03:40.960 | okay, we demanded that they do this,

04:03:42.600 | but it was meaningless when they did it.

04:03:44.600 | Then the demand was that--

04:03:46.200 | - It was a tactical thing, yes.

04:03:47.320 | - Then the demand was that the PLO recognize Israel.

04:03:51.160 | - Tactical.

04:03:52.000 | They demanded that they did this

04:03:53.640 | and they did it, but it's meaningless.

04:03:55.440 | - And they never changed their charter, the PLO.

04:03:57.280 | You may remember that.

04:03:58.480 | - In fact, in 19--

04:03:59.320 | - They supposedly abrogated the old charter,

04:04:01.600 | but never came up with a new one.

04:04:03.000 | - No, but--

04:04:03.840 | - So there was no new charter.

04:04:04.680 | - But in 1996--

04:04:05.520 | - And Farouk Haddoumi said, of course,

04:04:06.880 | the old charter is still in force.

04:04:08.680 | - Yes, yes.

04:04:09.520 | But the point is, the Palestinians,

04:04:12.840 | demands are constantly made of them.

04:04:15.560 | And when they--

04:04:16.400 | - And of Israel.

04:04:17.240 | - And when they accede to those demands,

04:04:19.240 | they're then told, actually, what you did is meaningless.

04:04:21.520 | So here's a new set of demands.

04:04:23.120 | I mean, you know, it's like a hamster.

04:04:24.480 | - There's no new set of demands.

04:04:25.320 | - It's like a hamster.

04:04:26.160 | - Let me, let me--

04:04:27.000 | - It's like a hamster stuck in a wheel.

04:04:28.680 | - Let me tell you what the bottom line is.

04:04:29.520 | - That will be told, if you run fast enough,

04:04:31.120 | you'll get out of the cage.

04:04:32.080 | - No, no.

04:04:32.920 | The bottom line is that Israel would like

04:04:36.560 | a Palestinian Sadat.

04:04:38.400 | It wants the Palestinians--

04:04:40.120 | Listen, listen, just let me finish.

04:04:40.960 | - This is really a worst-case scenario

04:04:42.640 | you're talking about now.

04:04:43.480 | - Okay, let me just, yeah, 'cause they shot Sadat.

04:04:44.480 | But anyhow, the Israelis want--

04:04:47.720 | - For good reason?

04:04:48.560 | - Want the Palestinians.

04:04:49.960 | Israelis want the Palestinians to actually accept

04:04:54.680 | the legitimacy of the state of Israel

04:04:56.760 | and the Zionist project,

04:04:58.200 | and then live side-by-side with them in two states.

04:05:00.720 | That's what the Israelis--

04:05:01.880 | I don't even know if it's true.

04:05:02.960 | - And what is the formal position--

04:05:03.800 | - I don't even know if that's true today.

04:05:04.920 | - And what is the formal position

04:05:06.480 | of this Israeli government?

04:05:08.640 | - No, no, I'm saying I don't know if it exists today.

04:05:09.920 | - Okay, it's predecessor, and it's predecessor,

04:05:13.040 | and it's predecessor.

04:05:14.240 | Come on.

04:05:15.080 | - That's what Israelis want.

04:05:15.920 | They want a change of psyche among the Palestinians.

04:05:18.760 | - Muin has an interesting--

04:05:20.000 | - And if that doesn't happen,

04:05:20.840 | there won't be a Palestinian state.

04:05:22.040 | - Muin, Muin has an interesting point.

04:05:26.440 | - Forget international law.

04:05:27.280 | - Because I found, I found, I know you want to forget it,

04:05:31.160 | just like you want to forget the genocide charge.

04:05:33.680 | I know you want to forget that.

04:05:34.920 | - Well, the Palestinians want to forget it, too,

04:05:36.200 | and it doesn't suit them as well, right?

04:05:37.040 | - Okay, but here's the problem,

04:05:38.840 | and it's exactly the problem that Muin just brought up.

04:05:42.360 | Now, I read carefully your book, "One State, Two States."

04:05:44.960 | With all due respect, absolutely a disgrace.

04:05:48.000 | Coming from you, coming from you--

04:05:50.520 | - Most reviewers didn't agree with you, though.

04:05:52.080 | - Yeah, coming from you was like you wrote it in your sleep.

04:05:55.120 | It's nothing compared to what you wrote before.

04:05:58.000 | I don't know why you did it.

04:05:59.360 | In my opinion, you ruined your reputation.

04:06:01.400 | Not totally, but you undermined it with that book.

04:06:04.480 | But let's get to the issue that Muin wrote.

04:06:07.600 | Here's what you said.

04:06:10.000 | You said, formally, you said, "Yes, it's true.

04:06:14.640 | "The Palestinians recognize Israel."

04:06:17.480 | But then you said, "Viscerally, in their hearts,

04:06:20.800 | "they didn't really recognize Israel."

04:06:23.560 | So I thought to myself, how does Professor Morrison know

04:06:28.560 | what's in the hearts of Palestinians?

04:06:31.880 | I don't know.

04:06:32.720 | I was surprised, as a historian,

04:06:38.200 | you would be talking about what's lurking

04:06:39.880 | in the hearts of Palestinians.

04:06:41.680 | But then you said something which was really interesting.

04:06:44.920 | You said, "Even if in their hearts they accepted Israel,"

04:06:49.920 | you said, quote, "Rationally, they could never accept Israel

04:06:55.040 | "because they got nothing.

04:06:57.000 | "They had this beautiful Palestine,

04:06:59.200 | "and now they're reduced to just a few pieces,

04:07:01.840 | "a few parcels of land."

04:07:03.480 | - So they will never accept it.

04:07:04.880 | - So yes, so you said there's no way they can accept it.

04:07:08.840 | - No, I would say that as well.

04:07:11.080 | The two-state solution, as proposed,

04:07:13.640 | doesn't make any sense.

04:07:14.960 | - Exactly as Muin said, you keep moving the goalposts

04:07:19.960 | until we reach the point where we realize,

04:07:24.840 | according to Benny Morris, there can't be a solution.

04:07:29.240 | So why don't you just say that outright?

04:07:31.800 | Why don't you say it outright, that according to you,

04:07:35.320 | the Palestinians can never be reasonable?

04:07:41.280 | Because according to you--

04:07:42.840 | - They want all of Palestine.

04:07:44.600 | - According to you, they couldn't possibly agree

04:07:49.240 | to a two-state settlement

04:07:51.000 | because it's such a lousy settlement.

04:07:53.800 | - 'Cause they want all of Palestine.

04:07:55.240 | - But you said, "Rationally, they couldn't accept it."

04:07:58.800 | Not their feelings.

04:08:00.440 | - It's both.

04:08:01.280 | - You said, "Rational."

04:08:02.100 | You went from formally, viscerally, rationally.

04:08:06.480 | So now we're reaching the point

04:08:08.520 | where according to Benny Morris,

04:08:10.760 | the Palestinians can't be reasonable

04:08:15.320 | because reasonably, they have to reject two states.

04:08:20.120 | - They want all of Palestine.

04:08:20.960 | - So Muin is absolutely correct.

04:08:22.960 | There's no way to resolve the problem

04:08:24.640 | according to your logic.

04:08:25.480 | - They want all of Palestine.

04:08:26.300 | He said that himself.

04:08:27.140 | He said they should dismantle Israel.

04:08:28.680 | That's what he's saying.

04:08:29.520 | - I'm talking about--

04:08:30.360 | - What I said.

04:08:31.200 | - You didn't say that.

04:08:32.020 | - Dismantle Israel.

04:08:32.860 | - What I said, and I've written--

04:08:34.560 | - I'm glad you didn't deny it.

04:08:36.480 | - I've written extensively on this issue,

04:08:38.840 | on why a two-state settlement is still feasible.

04:08:43.840 | And I came out in support of that proposition.

04:08:47.160 | Perhaps in my heart, you can see that I was just bullshitting

04:08:51.500 | but that's what I actually wrote.

04:08:53.420 | That was a number of years ago.

04:08:55.960 | And just as a matter of historical record,

04:08:58.180 | beginning in the early 1970s,

04:09:02.920 | there was fierce debate

04:09:04.320 | within the Palestinian National Movement

04:09:07.120 | about whether to accept or reject.

04:09:10.200 | And there were three schools of thought.

04:09:12.240 | There was one that would accept nothing less

04:09:14.540 | than the total liberation of Palestine.

04:09:17.240 | There was a second that accepted

04:09:19.320 | what was called the establishment

04:09:20.720 | of a fighting national authority on Palestinian soil,

04:09:23.820 | which they saw as the beginning--

04:09:25.720 | - As a springboard.

04:09:26.560 | - As a springboard for the total liberation of Palestine.

04:09:28.480 | And there was a third school

04:09:30.320 | that believed that under current dynamics and so on,

04:09:33.720 | that they should go for a two-state settlement.

04:09:37.880 | And our friend and correspondent, Gauter Loerse,

04:09:42.480 | has written a very perceptive article

04:09:45.160 | on when the PLO, already in 1976,

04:09:49.040 | came out in open support of a two-state resolution

04:09:54.040 | at the Security Council.

04:09:56.680 | PLO accepted it.

04:09:58.120 | Israel, of course, rejected it.

04:10:00.120 | But the resolution didn't pass

04:10:01.880 | because the U.S. and the U.K. vetoed it.

04:10:04.020 | It was both of them.

04:10:04.860 | - I think it was nine to five.

04:10:06.400 | - Ah, okay, yeah.

04:10:08.600 | But the fact of the matter is

04:10:11.800 | that the PLO came to accept a two-state settlement.

04:10:16.800 | Why they did it, I think, is irrelevant.

04:10:20.320 | And subsequently, the PLO acted on the basis

04:10:25.680 | of seeking to achieve a two-state settlement.

04:10:27.560 | The reason, I think, and I think, Norm,

04:10:29.720 | you've written about this,

04:10:31.400 | the reason that Arafat was so insistent

04:10:35.560 | on getting minimally acceptable terms

04:10:40.080 | for a two-state settlement at Camp David and afterwards

04:10:44.000 | was precisely because he knew that once he signed,

04:10:47.240 | that was all the Palestinians were going to get.

04:10:49.800 | If his intention had been, I'm not accepting Israel,

04:10:54.660 | I simply want to springboard,

04:10:56.160 | he would have accepted a Palestinian state in Jericho.

04:10:59.480 | But he didn't.

04:11:00.320 | He insisted-- - That's something

04:11:01.140 | I've never understood.

04:11:02.240 | He should have logically accepted the springboard

04:11:05.240 | and then from there launched his next statement.

04:11:06.380 | - No, he understood what you don't understand.

04:11:08.140 | He understood that international law

04:11:10.960 | would put a real constraint on him.

04:11:13.660 | - No, but also-- - Once he accepted,

04:11:15.200 | it was over. - I think constitutionally,

04:11:16.520 | he was incapable of signing.

04:11:17.680 | - Well, I don't know that.

04:11:18.760 | If that's-- - You're right.

04:11:19.600 | - I'm not his analyst. - He should have accepted it.

04:11:21.360 | - But if you're correct, okay,

04:11:23.160 | that he was really out to--

04:11:25.960 | - Eliminate Israel. - Eliminate Israel,

04:11:27.320 | then he wouldn't have cared about the borders.

04:11:29.920 | He wouldn't have cared about what the thing said

04:11:31.600 | about refugees.

04:11:32.440 | He would have gotten a sovereign state

04:11:33.960 | and used that to achieve that purpose.

04:11:36.280 | But I think it was precisely because he recognized

04:11:39.320 | that he was not negotiating for a springboard.

04:11:41.400 | He was negotiating permanent status

04:11:44.280 | that he was such a stickler about the details.

04:11:47.560 | The second-- - Just as a factual matter,

04:11:49.680 | he wasn't such a stickler.

04:11:52.720 | When they asked him how many refugees,

04:11:55.040 | the numbers-- - It was a principle

04:11:57.160 | rather than the numbers. - It was the principle.

04:11:58.360 | - He said I would be pragmatic about it.

04:12:00.040 | - Yes, and the numbers that were used at Annapolis

04:12:05.040 | were between 100 and 250,000 refugees over 10 years.

04:12:10.360 | That was the number.

04:12:11.840 | Arafat, when he was asked at Camp David,

04:12:15.400 | he kept saying, "I care about the Lebanese,

04:12:19.440 | "the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon,"

04:12:21.040 | which came to about 300,000. - It was a risk priority.

04:12:23.240 | - Which was a large concession from,

04:12:26.560 | whether you accept the number or not,

04:12:28.360 | that he wasn't talking about six million.

04:12:30.720 | He was talking about between 100 and 250,000 over 10 years.

04:12:35.720 | Now, the best offer that came from the Palestinians,

04:12:39.360 | excuse me, the best offer that came from Israel

04:12:42.440 | was the Olmert offer.

04:12:44.720 | - Can we just pretend like we didn't all lay out

04:12:47.680 | the exceptionally pessimistic view of a two-state,

04:12:51.960 | hold on a second, two-state solution.

04:12:53.200 | Let's pretend that in five years, in 10 years,

04:12:57.080 | a two-state peace settlement is reached,

04:13:00.340 | and as historians, you'll still be here

04:13:04.360 | and writing about it 20 years from now.

04:13:06.360 | How would it have happened?

04:13:08.100 | - I think that historically, I think that the big issue is,

04:13:11.880 | I think that both sides have had

04:13:13.400 | their own internal motivations to fight

04:13:15.280 | because they feel like they have something to gain from it,

04:13:17.240 | but I think as time has gone on,

04:13:19.000 | unfortunately, the record proves

04:13:20.480 | that the Palestinian side is delusional.

04:13:22.680 | The longer that the conflict endures,

04:13:24.640 | the worse position they'll be in,

04:13:26.160 | but for some reason, they've never had a leader

04:13:28.460 | that convinced them of that as much.

04:13:30.280 | That Arafat thought that if he held on,

04:13:32.020 | there was always a better deal around the corner.

04:13:34.240 | Abbas is more concerned with trying to maintain

04:13:36.280 | any legitimacy amongst Palestinians

04:13:38.040 | than actually trying to negotiate

04:13:40.020 | anything realistic with Israel.

04:13:41.240 | That Palestinians are always incentivized

04:13:43.300 | to feel like as long as they keep fighting,

04:13:45.140 | either the international community is going to save them

04:13:47.460 | with the five millionth UN resolution condemning whatever,

04:13:50.280 | that another ICJ advisory opinion

04:13:52.160 | is finally going to lead to the expulsion

04:13:53.840 | of half a million Jews from the West Bank,

04:13:56.040 | or that some other international body,

04:13:58.020 | the ICJ and the genocide charge

04:13:59.440 | is gonna come and save the Palestinians.

04:14:00.700 | As long as they, in their mind,

04:14:02.480 | feel like somebody is coming to save them,

04:14:04.280 | then they feel like they're going to have the ability

04:14:06.180 | to get something better in the future,

04:14:07.440 | but the reality is, is all of the good partners

04:14:09.760 | for peace that the Palestinians had

04:14:11.120 | have completely and utterly abandoned them.

04:14:14.200 | Egypt, Jordan, the Gulf States,

04:14:17.320 | whether you're talking bilateral peace

04:14:18.640 | or the Abraham Accords,

04:14:19.760 | most of the Arab leaders in negotiating peace with Israel

04:14:22.400 | have just not had as much of an interest

04:14:24.240 | in maintaining the rights and the representations

04:14:28.240 | of what the Palestinian people want,

04:14:29.280 | and the only people they have today

04:14:30.720 | to draw legitimacy from,

04:14:32.760 | or to have on their side to argue with them,

04:14:34.700 | are people that, I guess, write books or tweet,

04:14:37.400 | or people in the international community

04:14:39.640 | that do resolutions or amnesty international reports.

04:14:42.000 | And the reality is,

04:14:42.840 | we can scream until we're blue in the face on these things,

04:14:44.680 | none of it has gotten any closer

04:14:46.280 | to helping the Palestinians in any sense of the word.

04:14:48.480 | The condition has only gotten worse.

04:14:49.920 | The settlements only continue to expand.

04:14:51.700 | The military operations are only to get more brutal.

04:14:54.400 | The blockade is going to continue to have worse effects.

04:14:56.700 | As long as we use international law as the basis,

04:14:59.280 | and there isn't a strong, a Sadat-like Palestinian leader

04:15:01.720 | that's willing to come up and confront Israel

04:15:03.920 | with the brave, peaceful negotiations

04:15:06.820 | to force them to acquiesce, nothing is going to happen.

04:15:09.600 | And I think that the issue you come up with is,

04:15:11.880 | whether it's people like Norm

04:15:12.920 | that talk about how brave the October 7th attacks were,

04:15:15.120 | or how much respect they have for those fighters,

04:15:17.360 | the Israel in a way,

04:15:19.680 | and I think people have said as much about Netanyahu,

04:15:21.920 | the right wants violence from the Palestinians

04:15:24.160 | because it always gives them a perpetual excuse

04:15:26.000 | to further the conflict.

04:15:27.280 | Well, we have to go in on October 7th,

04:15:29.280 | and we've got to remove Hamas,

04:15:30.120 | but we can't trust these people in the West.

04:15:31.320 | We have to do the night raids because of, you know,

04:15:33.460 | the second Intifada, you know,

04:15:35.480 | made us feel like the Palestinian people

04:15:36.760 | didn't want trust with us.

04:15:38.040 | I feel like the biggest thing that would force Israel

04:15:41.140 | to change its path would be an actual, a real,

04:15:44.480 | not for like two weeks,

04:15:45.700 | but an actual peaceful Palestinian leader,

04:15:48.000 | somebody committed to peace

04:15:49.240 | that is able to apply those standards

04:15:51.220 | and hold the entire region of Palestine to those standards.

04:15:53.880 | Because I think over time,

04:15:55.420 | the mounting pressure from without

04:15:57.640 | the international community

04:15:59.160 | and the mounting pressure from within,

04:16:00.500 | because Israel hosts a lot of its own criticism.

04:16:02.360 | If we talk about B'Tselem, we talk about Horetz,

04:16:04.200 | like Israel will host a lot of its own criticism.

04:16:05.760 | I think that that pressure would force Israel

04:16:07.520 | towards an actual peace agreement,

04:16:09.840 | but it's never going to come through violence.

04:16:11.460 | Historically, it hasn't.

04:16:13.120 | And in the modern day,

04:16:14.280 | violence has just hurt the Palestinians more and more.

04:16:16.180 | - If you paint a picture of the future,

04:16:18.060 | now's a good moment for both Palestine and Israel

04:16:21.660 | to get new leadership.

04:16:23.540 | Netanyahu's on the way out.

04:16:25.300 | Hamas possibly is on the way out.

04:16:27.340 | Who should rise to the top

04:16:29.900 | such that a peaceful settlement can be reached?

04:16:32.500 | - The problem is like Benny said, yeah,

04:16:34.300 | it's difficult because Hamas enjoys

04:16:36.140 | so much widespread support amongst the Palestinian people.

04:16:40.580 | I think that the, well, I don't know.

04:16:42.180 | There's opinions on whether democracy

04:16:43.380 | or pushing them towards elections

04:16:44.520 | was the right or wrong idea,

04:16:45.840 | but with like an Islamic fundamentalist government for Hamas,

04:16:49.000 | I don't know if a negotiation with Israel

04:16:50.840 | ever happens there.

04:16:51.880 | And then when the international pressure is always,

04:16:54.320 | you know, 67 borders, infinite right of return for refugees,

04:16:57.500 | and a total withdrawal of Israel from all these lands

04:16:59.840 | to even start negotiations,

04:17:01.960 | I just don't see realistically that on the Palestinian side,

04:17:04.520 | no negotiations are ever going to start

04:17:06.320 | in a place that Israel's willing to accept.

04:17:08.920 | - If you want to dismiss international law,

04:17:13.040 | that's fine, but then you have to do it consistently.

04:17:16.640 | You can't set standards for the Palestinians,

04:17:20.680 | but reject applying those standards to Israel.

04:17:25.960 | If we're going to have the law of the jungle,

04:17:29.920 | then we can all be beasts, and not only some of us.

04:17:33.580 | And I think, so it's either that,

04:17:36.360 | or you have certain agreed standards

04:17:40.480 | that are intended to regulate our conduct,

04:17:43.040 | all of our conduct, not just some of us.

04:17:45.880 | So that's a fundamental-

04:17:46.720 | - What are the standards you think I'm saying to abandon?

04:17:48.400 | - Well, you're saying, you know,

04:17:49.440 | international law and the millionth UN resolution,

04:17:51.720 | you're being very dismissive about all these things.

04:17:53.820 | And that's fine, but then you have to be dismissive

04:17:57.000 | across the board.

04:17:57.840 | - That was a chapter six resolution, that's a non-binding.

04:17:59.960 | - But 242 is binding, it's absolutely not binding.

04:18:03.120 | - What is binding?

04:18:04.520 | Do you know anything about how the UN system works?

04:18:07.240 | - If you read the language of the resolution,

04:18:08.920 | binding is typically if it commits you

04:18:10.400 | to upholding a particular international law

04:18:11.960 | or if it establishes a new rule.

04:18:12.800 | - What is chapter six?

04:18:13.640 | You just throw out words, you hear binding, not binding.

04:18:18.160 | - Does 242 mention a Palestinian state norm?

04:18:20.720 | - Of course not.

04:18:21.560 | - That's part of the problem.

04:18:22.380 | - That was the reason why the Palestinians

04:18:24.440 | didn't want to recognize 242,

04:18:26.520 | 'cause they're only referred at the very end

04:18:28.360 | for refugee problems.

04:18:29.200 | - But the PLO recognized 181 and 242.

04:18:30.920 | - Yeah, but hold on, hold on.

04:18:32.240 | Every United Nations Security Council resolution,

04:18:35.480 | irrespective of under which chapter it was adopted,

04:18:38.760 | is by definition binding.

04:18:41.640 | Binding not only on the members of the Security Council,

04:18:44.920 | but on every member state of the UN.

04:18:47.780 | That's, read the UN charter, it's black and white.

04:18:51.120 | - Sure, people can look that up if they want.

04:18:52.280 | - Now regarding, yes.

04:18:53.120 | - But the language even of 242 is kept intentionally vague

04:18:56.280 | such that it doesn't actually provide, again,

04:18:58.360 | the final concord. - It's actually

04:18:59.200 | not that vague. - It's incredibly vague.

04:19:00.020 | - Because the term land for peace originates in 242.

04:19:05.020 | The idea is-- - Sure, but what about

04:19:05.960 | territorial acquisition and Israel's need

04:19:07.480 | to give it up was kept vague.

04:19:09.240 | That's why in '79, Israel saw that they fulfilled

04:19:12.240 | their obligations under 242 in terms of withdrawal.

04:19:15.520 | - Allow me points of information.

04:19:17.920 | The first principle in UN resolution 242

04:19:21.400 | is that the inadmissibility of the acquisition

04:19:23.960 | of territory by force.

04:19:25.400 | - Which is meaningless.

04:19:26.960 | - It may be meaningless to you, Mr. Bunnell.

04:19:29.320 | - It was meaningless to everyone in the region.

04:19:30.880 | - Mr. Bunnell, that principle was adopted

04:19:36.140 | by the Friendly Nations Resolution,

04:19:38.280 | the UN General Assembly in 1970.

04:19:41.640 | That resolution was then reiterated

04:19:44.880 | in the International Court of Justice

04:19:48.240 | this ruling advisory opinion in 2004.

04:19:53.080 | That was the basis of the coalition

04:19:57.400 | against Iraq when it acquired Kuwait

04:20:00.760 | and then declared it a province of Kuwait.

04:20:03.480 | - Yeah, which Eric Patton supported.

04:20:04.880 | - That's what's called,

04:20:06.040 | that's what's called under--

04:20:06.880 | - That's true, Eric Patton.

04:20:07.700 | - Eric Patton did support it.

04:20:08.540 | - Eric Patton did support it.

04:20:09.380 | - It's a shady deal with the Oslo Accords.

04:20:11.160 | - I'm not gonna go there.

04:20:12.340 | I'm not gonna go there.

04:20:13.180 | - It's not accurate that Eric Patton endorsed.

04:20:15.120 | - Okay, I'm not gonna go there.

04:20:16.480 | - Okay.

04:20:17.680 | - It's called under international law,

04:20:19.780 | use Kogans or peremptory norms of international law,

04:20:24.620 | the inadmissibility of the acquisition

04:20:26.760 | of territory by war.

04:20:28.200 | That is not controversial.

04:20:30.120 | It's not vague.

04:20:31.800 | You couldn't put it more succinctly.

04:20:34.840 | You cannot acquire territory by force

04:20:38.200 | under international law.

04:20:39.420 | - Who owned the White Bank before '67?

04:20:41.160 | Who owned the Gaza Strip before '67?

04:20:43.560 | - Mr. Bonnell, don't change the subject.

04:20:47.780 | If you don't know what you're talking about,

04:20:49.600 | at least have the, at least have the humility.

04:20:52.680 | You talk about chapter six.

04:20:54.520 | You don't know chapter six.

04:20:55.660 | You don't know chapter six from tweet five.

04:20:59.760 | You have no idea what you're talking about.

04:21:02.160 | It's just so embarrassing.

04:21:04.040 | At least have some humility.

04:21:06.560 | Between us, we've read maybe 10,000 books on the topic,

04:21:10.320 | and you've read two Wikipedia entries,

04:21:13.800 | and you start talking about chapter six.

04:21:16.160 | Do you know what chapter seven is?

04:21:17.680 | - Answer me, answer me a question.

04:21:18.520 | - Do you know what chapter seven is?

04:21:19.340 | - No, answer me a question.

04:21:20.180 | How close has 242 gotten the Palestinians to a state?

04:21:22.680 | How close has the 2004 advisory opinion

04:21:24.880 | gotten the West Bank settlement?

04:21:26.200 | - What's your alternative?

04:21:27.520 | - The alternative is not this,

04:21:29.880 | whatever this making money off the conflict is.

04:21:31.880 | The actual alternative.

04:21:33.480 | The actual alternative.

04:21:34.320 | - Destiny should talk about making money off of idiocy.

04:21:36.500 | - Yeah, you're a media blitz where you go and talk

04:21:38.360 | to 50 million different people about your awesome solution.

04:21:40.780 | - But he has a point there.

04:21:41.620 | - The issue is you have to negotiate.

04:21:42.440 | - All these resolutions have gotten the Palestinians

04:21:45.200 | no closer to a state.

04:21:46.840 | - Because they haven't been enforced

04:21:48.640 | because of the U.S. veto.

04:21:49.960 | - They're not gonna be enforced.

04:21:51.040 | - Well, wait, wait, wait, wait.

04:21:52.040 | - Okay.

04:21:52.880 | - If I may, if I may.

04:21:54.080 | - You know what, you know what, Professor Morris.

04:21:57.440 | - We're talking about the case for genocide.

04:21:58.400 | - Professor Morris, because of your logic

04:22:01.840 | and I'm not disputing it,

04:22:03.920 | that's why October 7th happened.

04:22:05.760 | - Oh my God.

04:22:06.720 | - Because there was no options left for those people.

04:22:11.720 | Exactly what Mouin said.

04:22:12.720 | - And now what options are left?

04:22:14.680 | After October 7th, what's the options left?

04:22:18.080 | - The only option is conflict.

04:22:18.900 | - Listen to this.

04:22:19.740 | - The only option is combat.

04:22:20.580 | - Mr. Bonnell is now an expert on Palestinian mentality.

04:22:24.300 | - You're contradicting yourself.

04:22:25.140 | - You know much about Palestinian mentality

04:22:25.980 | as you know about chapter five.

04:22:26.800 | - I only deal with the facts.

04:22:27.640 | I only deal with the facts.

04:22:28.460 | - Tell me about chapter five.

04:22:29.300 | - Egypt didn't find it necessary to.

04:22:30.140 | - Tell me about chapter five.

04:22:30.960 | - Egypt didn't find it necessary to.

04:22:31.800 | - Tell me about chapter five.

04:22:32.620 | - Negotiate peace with the Palestinians.

04:22:33.460 | - Tell me about chapter five.

04:22:34.300 | - Jordan didn't find it necessary

04:22:35.120 | to negotiate peace with the Palestinians.

04:22:35.960 | - Hey, if I may.

04:22:36.800 | - The Arabian Accords didn't work.

04:22:37.620 | - You're contradicting yourself.

04:22:38.460 | - Didn't work for the Palestinians.

04:22:39.300 | - You're contradicting yourself.

04:22:40.120 | - You're contradicting yourself.

04:22:40.960 | - Despite all of the international law.

04:22:41.800 | - Everybody, Mouin.

04:22:42.620 | - You're contradicting yourself.

04:22:43.880 | On the one hand, you're saying all the Palestinians do

04:22:47.060 | is fight and violence and terrorism and all the rest of it.

04:22:50.240 | But on the other hand, you're saying

04:22:52.160 | they're expecting salvation from UN resolutions

04:22:57.160 | and international coordination.

04:22:58.580 | Those aren't violent.

04:22:59.960 | - It's the law.

04:23:00.800 | - No, but it's part of maintaining.

04:23:01.620 | - It's the continual putting off of negotiating.

04:23:04.440 | - They've negotiated.

04:23:05.280 | - Any solution.

04:23:06.100 | - They've negotiated.

04:23:06.940 | - As in when Arafat takes 10 days to respond.

04:23:09.420 | When Arafat takes 10 days to respond,

04:23:10.760 | the President said all over the world

04:23:12.280 | they're going to visit their friends.

04:23:13.120 | Yes, that's what putting the conflict off is definitely.

04:23:13.960 | - But Mouin said they accepted two states in 1975.

04:23:18.520 | Brace yourself.

04:23:19.360 | - Why didn't they accept the Congress then?

04:23:20.200 | - Brace yourself.

04:23:21.020 | - That's 50 years ago.

04:23:22.500 | - This is a legend.

04:23:23.320 | - That's a half century ago.

04:23:24.160 | - No, no, they didn't accept the two-state solution.

04:23:26.480 | - He quoted a very good article.

04:23:28.480 | - You can quote Arafat talking about how he's lying

04:23:30.840 | and he's just going to use a 94 and a 95

04:23:32.960 | when he's making trips around the world.

04:23:33.800 | - But there's a very rich-

04:23:34.620 | - He just wanted to use this as the starting ground.

04:23:37.080 | I'm sorry, I get hooked.

04:23:37.920 | So you can watch the DVD and slow it down to 0.5 speed

04:23:39.920 | if you don't understand what I'm saying.

04:23:40.960 | - Let me finish.

04:23:41.800 | There's a very lengthy history

04:23:44.720 | of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

04:23:46.920 | You want to deny that those negotiations took place.

04:23:49.880 | - Where it feels like there was a good faith effort.

04:23:52.720 | Where there was a good faith effort.

04:23:54.960 | Where it was a good faith effort.

04:23:56.440 | - We have a written record.

04:23:57.260 | - With all due respect.

04:23:58.100 | - We have a written record.

04:23:58.920 | - Mr. Pop Historian,

04:23:59.760 | I can't even read the written records.

04:24:00.920 | I don't know why you're referring to it.

04:24:01.760 | - Excuse me?

04:24:02.600 | I just said there are 15,000 pages on Annapolis.

04:24:06.340 | - And I'm sure you cherry-quicked your favorite quote

04:24:08.120 | from all of them.

04:24:08.960 | - I know, cherry-picked.

04:24:09.800 | - Okay, that's great.

04:24:10.620 | That's great.

04:24:11.460 | - Hey, at least I had a quote to cherry-pick.

04:24:13.440 | - That's great.

04:24:14.280 | - All you have is Wikipedia.

04:24:15.960 | - I gave you quotes.

04:24:16.960 | - All you have is Wikipedia.

04:24:17.800 | - Do you want quotes?

04:24:19.280 | Find me the information.

04:24:20.120 | It says the Palestinian cause has been furthered

04:24:22.240 | by any international law.

04:24:23.080 | You can't do it.

04:24:24.120 | - I think the problem is different, okay?

04:24:27.080 | You want to say the Palestinians were only fighting,

04:24:31.520 | and then when I point out they've also gone to the court

04:24:34.920 | and the UN to say, well, all they do then is these things,

04:24:37.720 | and they should be negotiating,

04:24:39.420 | and I demonstrate that there was a lengthy record

04:24:43.580 | of negotiations that said, yeah,

04:24:44.760 | but they didn't go in good faith.

04:24:46.520 | Again, you're placing the hamster in the wheel

04:24:49.520 | and telling him if he runs fast enough,

04:24:51.240 | maybe one day he'll get out of the cage.

04:24:53.000 | - What was the best good faith negotiations

04:24:54.720 | on the side of the-- - And please,

04:24:55.560 | if I could just finish.

04:24:56.640 | I think the fundamental problem here

04:24:59.360 | is not what the Palestinians have and haven't done,

04:25:01.960 | and it's perfectly legitimate to have a discussion

04:25:05.360 | about whether they could have been more effective.

04:25:08.760 | Of course they could have been more effective.

04:25:10.160 | Everyone could have always been more effective.

04:25:12.720 | The fundamental issue here is that Israel

04:25:17.160 | has never been prepared to concede the legitimacy

04:25:22.160 | of Palestinian national rights

04:25:25.240 | in the land of the former British mandate of Palestine.

04:25:29.200 | - How do you explain Taba Summit?

04:25:30.720 | How do you explain the Camp David?

04:25:32.040 | - No, Barak and Olmert did--

04:25:33.640 | - How do you explain Olbert's offer to the Ba'aths?

04:25:34.480 | - Did accept the legitimacy of Palestinian demands.

04:25:37.020 | This is--

04:25:37.860 | - Well, those-- - But they just didn't want

04:25:39.560 | to give the Palestinians all of Palestine, that's all.

04:25:42.660 | - No, all of Palestine?

04:25:43.920 | - All of Palestine.

04:25:44.760 | - You mean all of the occupied territories?

04:25:45.960 | - No, no, no.

04:25:46.780 | You're talking about all of Palestine

04:25:47.620 | and the occupied territories. - Wait, what is the occupied?

04:25:48.920 | What is the occupied territories?

04:25:50.360 | - The occupied territories. - Is that all of Israel?

04:25:52.040 | - The occupied territories are those territories

04:25:55.200 | that Israel occupied in June of 1967.

04:25:59.200 | - The Palestinians often use that term

04:26:01.200 | to define the whole of Palestine, not just the West Bank.

04:26:03.960 | - Could you show me, Professor Morris,

04:26:06.560 | in all the negotiations, all the negotiations,

04:26:10.800 | and all the accounts that have been written,

04:26:13.320 | can you show me one where the Palestinians

04:26:17.440 | in the negotiations, 'cause that's what we were talking

04:26:19.600 | about, wanted all of Israel.

04:26:22.720 | The maximum-- - They can't say that

04:26:24.560 | 'cause international community won't accept it.

04:26:26.680 | - You know it 'cause you know what--

04:26:27.520 | - So they didn't say it, they didn't ask for it.

04:26:29.000 | - But you know what lurks in their heart.

04:26:29.840 | - No, Hamas did.

04:26:31.160 | Hamas always said all of it.

04:26:32.840 | - Hamas only negotiated with Israel

04:26:34.520 | about prisoner exchanges and the blockade.

04:26:35.920 | - Yeah, no, I know, but they represent a lot

04:26:38.280 | of the Palestinian people, you'll agree.

04:26:40.080 | - The only place I saw pieces of Israel were the land swaps,

04:26:45.080 | and the land swaps accounted for about 2% to 5% of Israel.

04:26:49.580 | - Nobody asked for all of Israel.

04:26:51.760 | Why do you say things like that?

04:26:52.600 | - What do you mean, they asked for all of Israel in '48,

04:26:54.480 | they asked for all of Israel in '67.

04:26:56.160 | What do you think those wars were about?

04:26:57.640 | You're not gonna respond to anything I'm saying

04:26:59.480 | 'cause you have no answer.

04:27:00.320 | - I'll respond to you.

04:27:01.140 | - That's correct.

04:27:01.980 | - Okay, Mr. Ben-El, we were talking about

04:27:04.640 | the diplomatic negotiations beginning with 2000, 2001.

04:27:09.640 | - You can't pretend that the first ask for Israel

04:27:13.000 | was in diplomacy.

04:27:14.320 | It was through war.

04:27:15.160 | - You don't know what you're talking about.

04:27:16.560 | - Is the international law argument ever going

04:27:18.960 | to get the Palestinians closer to state?

04:27:20.200 | Is the Israeli state ever gonna be dismantled?

04:27:22.560 | Do you think that's realistic coming up, ever,

04:27:25.120 | in the next 20 years?

04:27:26.040 | - Again, I'm posing a question.

04:27:28.560 | And the question is, regardless of what's feasible

04:27:34.440 | or realistic today, the question I'm posing is,

04:27:38.240 | can you have peace in the Middle East

04:27:40.880 | with this militant, irrational, genocidal, apartheid state

04:27:48.480 | and power? - I don't think so, no.

04:27:50.640 | - Okay, and the question I'm asking is,

04:27:53.680 | can you have peace with this regime,

04:27:56.480 | or does this regime and its institutions

04:27:59.840 | need to be dismantled, similar to what the examples

04:28:03.080 | I gave of Europe and Southern Africa?

04:28:05.440 | - How do you contend with the fact

04:28:06.400 | that most of the surrounding Arab states

04:28:07.840 | seem to agree that you can?

04:28:09.460 | - Yeah, you're correct.

04:28:11.320 | Several of them, most importantly Egypt, Jordan,

04:28:15.760 | have made their peace with Israel.

04:28:19.360 | I should add that Israel's conduct since then

04:28:22.880 | has placed these relations under strain.

04:28:26.440 | I had very little, I didn't take the reports

04:28:31.440 | of a Saudi-Israeli rapprochement particularly seriously

04:28:35.920 | before October 7th, the reason being

04:28:38.680 | that it was really a Saudi-Israeli-U.S. deal,

04:28:42.020 | which committed the U.S. to make certain commitments

04:28:45.360 | to Saudi Arabia that would probably

04:28:46.800 | never get through Congress.

04:28:48.880 | - Do you not consider the Egypt-Israeli peace deal

04:28:50.740 | legitimate then, since the United States

04:28:53.020 | made a great financial contribution to Egypt?

04:28:54.960 | - I don't think the question is whether

04:28:56.480 | that deal is legitimate or not.

04:28:59.920 | I think that deal exists, but the point is

04:29:04.920 | whether the core of this conflict

04:29:09.840 | is not between Israel and Egypt.

04:29:12.720 | The core of this conflict is between Israel

04:29:16.680 | and the Palestinian people, and the reason

04:29:20.080 | that Israel agreed to relinquish

04:29:23.440 | the occupied Egyptian Sinai, and the reason

04:29:27.560 | that Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty was signed in 1979

04:29:31.560 | is because Israel in 1973 recognized

04:29:35.620 | that its military superiority was ultimately

04:29:40.100 | no match for Egypt's determination

04:29:42.020 | to recover its occupied territories,

04:29:43.840 | and that there would come a point

04:29:45.660 | when Egypt would find a way to extract

04:29:47.920 | an unbearable price. - Maybe just

04:29:49.200 | the Israelis wanted peace.

04:29:50.840 | - Well, the Israelis wanted-- - Not just because

04:29:52.480 | they were afraid of what Egypt might do at some point.

04:29:54.520 | - If you're talking about the average Israeli citizen,

04:29:57.200 | I think that's a fair characterization.

04:29:59.200 | If you're talking about the Israeli leadership,

04:30:01.280 | I think they looked at it in more strategic terms.

04:30:03.800 | How do you remove the most powerful Arab military state

04:30:07.680 | from the equation? - Two points, simple points.

04:30:09.440 | What was the terms of that Egypt-Israel peace treaty?

04:30:13.460 | International law.

04:30:16.300 | Egypt demanded every-- - Nobody cared

04:30:19.180 | about international law. - Allow me to finish.

04:30:21.740 | Every single inch of Egyptian-- - Nobody had talked

04:30:25.220 | about international law.

04:30:27.240 | Begin and Carter and Saddam talked about the reality

04:30:30.700 | of Israel occupying territory. - Professor Morris,

04:30:33.940 | Professor Morris, I know the record.

04:30:39.020 | They demanded, as you know, 'cause you've written about it,

04:30:43.060 | they demanded every square inch.

04:30:44.980 | As you know, they demanded the oil fields be dismantled.

04:30:48.620 | - No, that's in the-- - The airfields--

04:30:50.340 | - No, not dismantled, they wanted the oil fields.

04:30:52.020 | - And they wanted the settlements dismantled.

04:30:53.980 | - They wanted the settlements dismantled.

04:30:55.380 | - The settlements, the oil fields, and the airfield.

04:30:58.220 | They demanded all three back.

04:31:00.240 | You can't have-- - What do you mean back?

04:31:01.860 | The airfields weren't there when the Egyptians were there.

04:31:03.820 | - Okay, that's incorrect.

04:31:05.420 | - What's incorrect? - You're incorrect.

04:31:06.900 | They built an airfield. - The airfields

04:31:07.740 | - The airfield, the Israelis built an airfield

04:31:10.540 | in the occupied Sinai. - Yes.

04:31:12.540 | - And they wanted it back-- - They didn't want it back.

04:31:14.500 | It wasn't theirs. - No, okay.

04:31:16.100 | - They wanted the territory in which the airfield--

04:31:17.980 | - Okay, allow, okay. - Israel had built back.

04:31:19.700 | - The oil fields, the airfields,

04:31:21.780 | the settlements had to be dismantled.

04:31:23.700 | - Yes. - Begin said,

04:31:24.900 | "I don't wanna be the first prime minister

04:31:27.060 | "to dismantle a settlement." - Then he did.

04:31:29.140 | - But he did, why?

04:31:30.420 | Because of the law. - No.

04:31:31.780 | - No, it was because of peace.

04:31:33.260 | It was normalization-- - Nobody cared

04:31:34.080 | about the law.

04:31:34.920 | The law had nothing to do with anything.

04:31:37.060 | - Was there a negotiation-- - Mr. Morris, Mr. Martin--

04:31:38.700 | - Between two states-- - Mr. Martin, Mr. Morris.

04:31:39.700 | - Each of which wanted certain things.

04:31:41.220 | - Palestinians wanted-- - The law had nothing

04:31:42.980 | to do with anything. - As I said repeatedly

04:31:44.380 | in the negotiations-- - You're not listening.

04:31:45.580 | You're not listening. - I know--

04:31:46.820 | - You're missing one point. - I've read the negotiations.

04:31:48.780 | - The law has nothing to do with anything.

04:31:49.620 | - There are two foreign relations of U.S. volumes on it.

04:31:53.140 | - Nobody cared about the law.

04:31:54.740 | - The Palestinians kept saying, "We want exactly--"

04:31:57.140 | - Forget the Palestinians, they weren't there.

04:31:58.700 | - Allow me to finish.

04:32:00.500 | The Palestinians kept saying, "We want what Egypt got.

04:32:04.140 | "We want what Egypt got."

04:32:05.980 | - Yeah. - Egypt got

04:32:06.940 | everything back. - But nothing to do

04:32:08.140 | with the law. - Okay.

04:32:09.300 | - Nothing to do with the law. - And number two,

04:32:11.540 | I'm not saying it's the whole picture,

04:32:14.140 | but as Foreign Minister Moisha Dayan said at the time,

04:32:18.740 | he said, "If a car has four wheels

04:32:23.580 | "and you remove one wheel, the car can't move."

04:32:28.580 | And for them, removing Egypt from the Arab front

04:32:34.620 | would then remove any Arab military threat to Israel.

04:32:38.380 | So Muin was, no, the first part did,

04:32:42.580 | and that's what the Palestinians kept saying,

04:32:45.140 | "We want what Egypt got from the settlement."

04:32:47.980 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true,

04:32:48.820 | but forget international law.

04:32:50.380 | - And by the way-- - Have nothing to do

04:32:51.220 | with the negotiations. - One last thing,

04:32:52.500 | one last, on a personal note.

04:32:54.700 | The quote about Sharm el-Sheikh without peace, okay.

04:32:59.460 | That's the only thing you ever cited from a book of mine.

04:33:03.860 | - I cited it from your book? - Yes.

04:33:06.380 | I was absolutely shocked at your betrayal of your people.

04:33:10.860 | That was pure treason.

04:33:13.940 | It was one-- - I apologize for that.

04:33:15.860 | I apologize, I apologize. - Okay, I accept, I accept.

04:33:18.580 | All right, well, let me try once again.

04:33:20.980 | For the region and for just entirety of humanity,

04:33:25.340 | what gives you hope?

04:33:26.540 | We just heard a lot of pessimistic, cynical things.

04:33:29.140 | What gives you hope? - People don't like war.

04:33:30.540 | That's a good reason, that's hope.

04:33:32.700 | In other words, the fear of war, the disaster of war

04:33:36.700 | should give people an impetus to try and seek peace.

04:33:41.380 | - When you look at people in Gaza

04:33:43.380 | and people in the West Bank, people in Israel--

04:33:45.380 | - They should want-- - Fundamentally,

04:33:46.740 | no, but fundamentally, they hate war.

04:33:49.700 | - Yes, I think so.

04:33:51.580 | - What gives you hope? - There is no hope, no.

04:33:54.220 | It's an extreme, no, I'm, hey, I'm not happy to say that.

04:33:58.660 | - Of course you are. - It's a...

04:34:02.500 | It's a very bleak moment right now because--

04:34:06.100 | - That I agree with, I agree with that.

04:34:07.300 | - Israel believes it has to restore

04:34:10.460 | what it calls its deterrence capability.

04:34:15.060 | I think you've written about it, actually,

04:34:16.580 | I just realized.

04:34:18.220 | Israel has to restore its deterrence capability,

04:34:21.980 | and after the catastrophe of October 7th,

04:34:25.500 | restoring its deterrence capacity means this part

04:34:29.020 | you didn't write about, the annihilation of Gaza

04:34:31.780 | and then moving on to the Hezbollah.

04:34:33.620 | - No, no, there's-- - So, the Israelis

04:34:37.100 | are dead set on restoring that deterrence capability.

04:34:42.100 | On the Arab side, and I know Muin and I

04:34:44.860 | have disagreed on it, and we're allowed to disagree,

04:34:47.500 | I think the Arab side, the lesson they learned

04:34:51.900 | from October 7th is Israelis aren't as strong

04:34:55.220 | as we thought they were.

04:34:56.420 | And-- - That would be

04:34:58.380 | an unfortunate message, 'cause that's really

04:35:01.500 | what the Arabs come to believe.

04:35:02.660 | - And they think that there is a military option now.

04:35:05.860 | And I think that's, it's a zero-sum game at this point,

04:35:10.340 | and it's very, very bleak.

04:35:12.500 | And I'm not going to lie about that.

04:35:14.180 | Now, I will admit my predictive capacities

04:35:19.180 | are not perfect-- - Are limited.

04:35:20.340 | - Are limited. - Yes, yes.

04:35:21.500 | - But for the moment, it's a very bleak situation.

04:35:25.300 | - That I agree with.

04:35:26.140 | - And I don't see right now a way out.

04:35:29.420 | However, at the very minimum, permanent ceasefire

04:35:34.420 | and the inhuman and illegal blockade of Gaza,

04:35:37.380 | and-- - Why is it illegal?

04:35:39.740 | They were shooting rockets at Israel for 20 years.

04:35:43.180 | Why is that illegal, to blockade Gaza?

04:35:45.780 | - He thinks they're bottle rockets.

04:35:47.860 | - Why is it illegal?

04:35:49.020 | I'll tell you why.

04:35:49.860 | - You don't rocket your neighbor.

04:35:50.980 | You rocket your neighbor, expect consequences.

04:35:53.340 | - I'll tell you why.

04:35:54.180 | - Expect consequences.

04:35:55.620 | - But that works both ways.

04:35:56.940 | - I know, I know, I've said that.

04:35:57.780 | Professor Morris. - It works both ways.

04:36:00.060 | - I'll tell you why.

04:36:01.860 | Because every human rights, humanitarian,

04:36:05.340 | and UN organization in the world--

04:36:06.980 | - They're all irrelevant.

04:36:07.820 | - Has said that the blockade--

04:36:10.660 | - Nobody cares about amnesty.

04:36:12.260 | - Is a form of collective punishment--

04:36:13.900 | - Nobody cares about amnesty.

04:36:14.740 | - Which is illegal under international law.

04:36:16.620 | - Forget the legal.

04:36:17.460 | The word illegal is-- - You think a blockade--

04:36:19.740 | - You don't understand the way the world works.

04:36:21.340 | - Yeah, and you think confining,

04:36:26.500 | because that's the blockade.

04:36:27.860 | - Yes, you don't--

04:36:28.700 | - Confining a million children, confining--

04:36:32.460 | - That's the choice of Hamas.

04:36:33.980 | - Confining a million children

04:36:36.740 | in what the Economist called a human rubbish sheep.

04:36:40.980 | - The Economist supported Israel in this war

04:36:43.180 | and continues to support Israel.

04:36:45.900 | - International Committee of the Red Cross

04:36:47.660 | called a sinking ship,

04:36:50.260 | what the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights

04:36:52.580 | called a toxic slum.

04:36:55.060 | You think--

04:36:55.900 | - It's a toxic slum, of course it's a slum.

04:36:56.740 | - You think under international law,

04:36:59.780 | you think it's legitimate to--

04:37:01.620 | - Forget the law.

04:37:02.540 | - Hey, I know you wanna forget the law.

04:37:04.980 | - What about morality?

04:37:05.820 | - It's the one thing that every--

04:37:06.660 | - Forget the law, what about morality?

04:37:07.500 | - It's what every Israeli fears the most.

04:37:10.500 | - What?

04:37:11.340 | - The law.

04:37:12.340 | - No, no, no.

04:37:13.180 | - As Tzipi Litany said, I studied international law,

04:37:17.300 | I oppose international law.

04:37:19.820 | Of course you don't wanna hear about the law.

04:37:21.700 | - That has got nothing to do with anything.

04:37:23.100 | - Okay, so here's the thing.

04:37:25.340 | Then don't complain about October 7th.

04:37:28.620 | If you don't wanna--

04:37:29.460 | - Did you hear me complain?

04:37:30.300 | - If you wanna say, forget about the law.

04:37:32.340 | - All I said was they acted like barbarians.

04:37:33.180 | - Then there is no international humanitarian law,

04:37:37.500 | there's no distinction between civilians and combatants.

04:37:41.260 | - There should be.

04:37:42.100 | - And so Hamas--

04:37:42.940 | - There should be, but it's got nothing to do with the law.

04:37:43.780 | - Now you're doing what Muin said,

04:37:45.580 | you're becoming very selective about the law.

04:37:47.860 | If you wanna forget about the law,

04:37:50.980 | Hamas had every right to do what it did.

04:37:53.420 | It had every right to do what it did.

04:37:55.140 | According to you, not to me,

04:37:57.580 | 'cause you want to forget the law.

04:37:59.700 | - Do you still support the Houthis

04:38:00.900 | shooting random ships?

04:38:01.740 | - Absolutely.

04:38:02.580 | - Okay, that's a violation of international law,

04:38:04.180 | so you play the same game.

04:38:05.500 | - Absolutely, and were there a power during World War II

04:38:10.380 | who had the courage of the Houthis,

04:38:13.140 | were there a power that had that kind of courage?

04:38:16.060 | - So courageous to be bombing merchant ships

04:38:18.380 | while tens of thousands of people die of actual starvation.

04:38:20.820 | Not the starvation that exists in the Gaza Strip

04:38:22.860 | where people, before October, don't die of starvation.

04:38:25.660 | Not the concentration camp that exists in the Gaza Strip.

04:38:27.500 | - What about starvation in Yemen?

04:38:29.900 | Don't they have something better to do?

04:38:30.740 | - Hey, that was the Houthis.

04:38:32.180 | - Yes, I know, don't they have anything better to do?

04:38:34.180 | - And you know, in three years,

04:38:35.460 | they lost 180,000 people.

04:38:37.100 | - Shouldn't they be feeding the Yemenis?

04:38:38.500 | - You know, 60,000 Yemenis died in starvation.

04:38:42.260 | - Why fight the Western powers in Israel

04:38:44.500 | when you should be taking care of your problems at home,

04:38:46.980 | the Houthis?

04:38:47.820 | - Often, the only allies of the dispossessed

04:38:50.780 | are those who experience similar circumstances.

04:38:53.740 | - Don't you think that they should take care

04:38:55.660 | of the Yemeni problems?

04:38:57.780 | - As I said- - I'm very happy.

04:38:59.180 | I'm very happy they're helping out the Palestinians.

04:39:01.980 | Anyone who helps the people-

04:39:02.820 | - It's at the expense of the Yemenis.

04:39:04.500 | - Anybody- - They don't pay for it.

04:39:05.700 | - Anybody who comes to the aid

04:39:07.180 | of those suffering the genocide,

04:39:08.940 | half of whom are- - There's no genocide.

04:39:10.140 | - Half of whom are children.

04:39:11.660 | Yeah, according to the most current UN reports,

04:39:14.180 | as of today- - There's no genocide.

04:39:15.780 | - One quarter of the population of Gaza-

04:39:18.700 | - Is starving.

04:39:19.540 | - That means 500,000 children-

04:39:22.340 | - Are starving.

04:39:23.180 | - Are on the verge of famine.

04:39:25.860 | - They keep saying on the verge of.

04:39:27.140 | - On the verge of.

04:39:27.980 | - I have not- - Didn't you call

04:39:28.820 | that they said it was unlivable?

04:39:29.660 | - I have not seen one Palestinian die of starvation

04:39:33.140 | in these last four months, not one.

04:39:34.740 | - There have been documented cases.

04:39:35.580 | - They're always on the verge.

04:39:36.420 | They're on the verge.

04:39:37.260 | - There have been documented cases.

04:39:38.620 | - I haven't seen them.

04:39:39.460 | - Yesterday, Al Jazeera said six,

04:39:40.860 | and the day before that, they said two.

04:39:42.220 | So those are the two.

04:39:43.060 | - Okay, that number probably dies

04:39:45.660 | in Israel of starvation also.

04:39:47.220 | - I don't think there's famine in Israel.

04:39:49.100 | - There isn't.

04:39:49.940 | There isn't in the Gaza Strip either.

04:39:51.460 | - You're so late.

04:39:52.300 | - It's something which is produced for the Western-

04:39:54.580 | - I haven't seen any children yet.

04:39:55.420 | - There are infants dying due to a engineered lack

04:40:00.300 | of access to food and nutrition.

04:40:01.980 | - I don't think it's engineered.

04:40:03.020 | I think if the Hamas stopped shooting, perhaps-

04:40:05.220 | - Unfortunately, unfortunately-

04:40:06.420 | - As you said, engineered.

04:40:08.220 | - I think Amnesty, excuse me,

04:40:11.100 | Human Rights Watch called it using starvation as a weapon.

04:40:14.420 | That's called engineering.

04:40:15.460 | - Okay.

04:40:16.300 | - That's what they did.

04:40:17.140 | But you were pushed on this by Coleman Hughes

04:40:17.980 | to bring up like an example of why is the Gaza Strip?

04:40:20.460 | Like by what metric are they starving?

04:40:22.460 | By what metric is it so behind the rest of the world?

04:40:25.340 | - You know, if we're gonna bring up-

04:40:27.140 | - I wanna hear an answer to that

04:40:27.980 | 'cause he didn't answer it before-

04:40:28.820 | - Okay, I'm happy to answer it.

04:40:29.740 | - Yeah.

04:40:30.580 | - I just called you from the humanitarian organizations.

04:40:33.020 | They said one quarter of the population of Gaza

04:40:35.900 | is now verging on famine.

04:40:37.140 | - Before October 7th.

04:40:37.980 | - Okay.

04:40:38.820 | - Before October 7th.

04:40:39.640 | - I'm not going before October 7th.

04:40:40.480 | - You use that as justification for Hamas fighting.

04:40:42.060 | You say the conditions were unlivable.

04:40:43.420 | They had to fight.

04:40:44.260 | - Yeah, I said to him-

04:40:45.080 | - So my question is what made it unlivable

04:40:46.520 | prior to October 7th?

04:40:47.360 | What are the metrics that you're using?

04:40:49.300 | - Okay, there were about five, six or seven reports

04:40:53.580 | issued by UNCTAD, issued by the World Bank,

04:40:57.620 | issued by the International Monetary Fund,

04:41:00.500 | and they all said, "That's why."

04:41:03.140 | That's why-

04:41:03.980 | - Why did they say why?

04:41:04.800 | Why did they say that?

04:41:05.640 | - That's why the economist, not a radical periodical,

04:41:09.980 | described Gaza as a human rubbish.

04:41:12.380 | - So tell me by what metrics?

04:41:14.100 | If you're a historian-

04:41:15.860 | - Okay, okay, okay.

04:41:16.680 | - If you do all this work to get into things,

04:41:17.520 | tell me what they said-

04:41:18.360 | - Here's something, Mr. Bunnell.

04:41:19.180 | - Tell me by what metrics?

04:41:20.020 | - Mr. Bunnell.

04:41:21.600 | - He's not gonna answer again.

04:41:23.180 | - I don't think I've avoided any of your questions,

04:41:25.780 | except when they breached,

04:41:28.120 | when they breached a threshold of complete imbecility.

04:41:31.200 | - So you're about to tell me by what metric

04:41:32.640 | the Gaza Strip is a humanitarian crisis?

04:41:33.480 | - Okay, I'm going to answer this.

04:41:34.720 | You remember what I said a moment ago?

04:41:36.400 | I said to Professor Morris, "I defer to expertise."

04:41:40.220 | I look at what the organizations say.

04:41:44.120 | I look at what the United Nations High Commissioner

04:41:46.380 | for Human Rights say.

04:41:47.220 | - You're saying it by words that you don't know.

04:41:48.080 | You don't know or you don't care.

04:41:48.920 | - I don't know.

04:41:49.760 | - Okay, that's fine.

04:41:50.580 | - Do you know how complicated?

04:41:51.760 | Have you ever investigated how complicated

04:41:54.960 | is the metric for hunger, starvation, and famine?

04:41:58.720 | It is such a complicated metric they figured out.

04:42:02.520 | If you asked me to repeat it now, I couldn't do it.

04:42:05.640 | - And yet we have a Human Development Index

04:42:07.440 | where we rank countries.

04:42:08.280 | Yet we can still measure infant mortality,

04:42:10.240 | life expectancy.

04:42:12.100 | - Yeah, we can measure all of these things.

04:42:14.360 | - Muin, I'm holding out for you here.

04:42:17.040 | You still didn't answer the hope question.

04:42:18.680 | What gives you a source of hope about the region?

04:42:22.720 | - Well, first of all, I would agree with Benny Morris

04:42:26.400 | and Norman Finkelstein that the current situation is bleak.

04:42:31.400 | And I think it would be unreasonable to expect it

04:42:37.320 | to not get even bleaker in the coming weeks and months.

04:42:42.140 | And we now, this conflict really,

04:42:46.420 | it originated in the late 19th century.

04:42:49.360 | It's been a more or less active conflict

04:42:54.360 | since the 1920s, 1930s.

04:42:56.800 | And it has produced a tremendous amount of suffering

04:43:02.940 | and regional conflict and geopolitical complications

04:43:07.620 | and all of that.

04:43:08.560 | But what gives me hope is that

04:43:11.780 | throughout their entire ordeal,

04:43:14.080 | the Palestinian people have never surrendered.

04:43:17.180 | And I believe they never will surrender

04:43:20.560 | to overwhelming force and violence.

04:43:24.140 | They have taken everything that Israel has thrown at them.

04:43:27.500 | They have taken everything that the West has thrown at them.

04:43:31.260 | They have taken everything that those

04:43:33.460 | who are supposed to be their natural allies

04:43:35.740 | have on occasion thrown at them.

04:43:39.780 | But this is a people that never has,

04:43:42.300 | and I believe never will surrender.

04:43:45.660 | And at a certain point, I think Israel and its leaders

04:43:50.660 | will have to come to the realization

04:43:56.340 | that by hook or by crook,

04:43:58.440 | these people are going to achieve their inalienable

04:44:05.260 | and legitimate national rights.

04:44:09.020 | And that is going to be a reality.

04:44:12.660 | - What do you mean by that?

04:44:15.500 | You mean all of Palestine, is that what you mean?

04:44:17.980 | - No, and--

04:44:19.060 | - From the river to the sea.

04:44:20.540 | - Well, ideally, of course, yes.

04:44:22.820 | - Those inalienable rights.

04:44:25.660 | - No, what I was saying earlier,

04:44:27.260 | and then the discussion got sidetracked,

04:44:29.820 | is that I did believe that a two-state settlement,

04:44:34.820 | a partition of Palestine along the 1967 boundaries

04:44:40.980 | would have been a reasonable solution

04:44:47.140 | because I think it also would have opened pathways

04:44:52.020 | to further--

04:44:54.340 | - But now you believe what?

04:44:55.700 | - Further nonviolent engagement

04:44:57.740 | between Israel and the Palestinians

04:44:59.220 | that could create other forms of coexistence

04:45:03.260 | in a federal or binational or other--

04:45:06.420 | - What do you think about refugees in regards to that?

04:45:08.220 | Do you think there has to be a resettlement

04:45:09.580 | of the five or six million,

04:45:10.780 | whoever wants to lay claim to being a sentence of return?

04:45:13.280 | - I think there has to be an explicit acknowledgement

04:45:17.260 | of the responsibility and of the rights.

04:45:24.460 | I think that in the framework of a two-state settlement,

04:45:28.780 | I think a formula would need to be found

04:45:32.800 | that does not undermine the foundations

04:45:37.800 | of a two-state settlement.

04:45:40.020 | And I don't think it would be that difficult

04:45:43.020 | because I suspect that there are probably large numbers

04:45:47.580 | of Palestinian refugees who,

04:45:49.900 | once their rights are acknowledged,

04:45:53.140 | will find it exceptionally distasteful--

04:45:56.500 | - Canada.

04:45:57.340 | - Exceptionally distasteful to have to live

04:46:00.860 | among the kind of sentiments

04:46:02.380 | that we've heard around this table today, to be quite frank.

04:46:05.540 | I mean, I heard, I was previously unfamiliar with you,

04:46:09.760 | and I watched one of your preparation videos.

04:46:14.300 | Very disconcerting stuff, I have to say.

04:46:16.500 | You were explaining two days ago

04:46:18.260 | in the discussion about apartheid and how absurd it was

04:46:21.660 | that, in your view, Jim Crow was not apartheid.

04:46:25.140 | Jim Crow was not apartheid.

04:46:27.100 | But Arab states not giving citizenship

04:46:29.860 | to Palestinian refugees is apartheid.

04:46:32.740 | That's what I meant with my earlier comments

04:46:35.220 | about white supremacy.

04:46:36.460 | - So my issue, that's great, the white supremacy comment.

04:46:39.460 | Well, hold on, let me respond, okay?

04:46:40.940 | My issue is that I feel like we have jumped

04:46:43.020 | on this euphemistic treadmill,

04:46:44.540 | and I think that's part of the reason

04:46:45.940 | why this conflict will never get solved,

04:46:48.460 | is because on one end, you've got a people

04:46:50.200 | who are now convinced internationally

04:46:51.820 | that they're victims of apartheid, genocide,

04:46:54.500 | concentration camp conditions, ethnic cleansing,

04:46:57.940 | they're forced to live in an open-air prison,

04:47:00.260 | with all of these things that are stacked against them,

04:47:02.620 | all of these terms that are highly specific,

04:47:04.540 | that refer to very precise things,

04:47:07.220 | and then when people like you say that they should--

04:47:08.060 | - I would expect nothing less from someone

04:47:10.060 | who doesn't think Jim Crow was apartheid.

04:47:12.060 | - I don't know if Jim--

04:47:12.900 | - But who does think that Arab states

04:47:14.380 | not giving-- - Because the problem

04:47:15.220 | is you're morally loading.

04:47:16.040 | For you, apartheid is when racists do bad things.

04:47:18.540 | - No, no. - Right?

04:47:19.380 | - There's a definition of apartheid.

04:47:21.300 | - That's great.

04:47:22.140 | - There's a very clear definition of apartheid.

04:47:22.980 | - But the specific top-down racial domination

04:47:25.300 | enacted through top-down federal legislative policies

04:47:28.020 | or whatever, means that I don't know if Jim Crow

04:47:32.260 | would have qualified for apartheid.

04:47:33.380 | That doesn't make it any less--

04:47:34.200 | - Have you ever heard--

04:47:35.040 | - Excuse me, Finkelstein, I'm talking right now.

04:47:35.880 | - Have you ever heard--

04:47:36.700 | - Finkelstein, I'm talking to your friend over here.

04:47:40.460 | I don't know if it would have qualified

04:47:41.580 | as the crime of apartheid.

04:47:42.780 | Just like if Israel were to literally nuke

04:47:44.780 | the Gaza Strip and kill two million people,

04:47:45.980 | I don't know if that would qualify

04:47:46.820 | for the crime of genocide.

04:47:47.660 | - In your eyes, probably not.

04:47:48.620 | - I don't, well, yeah,

04:47:49.460 | but because genocide requires a special intent.

04:47:51.240 | I think the issue is, instead of,

04:47:53.460 | and I think this conversation is actually,

04:47:54.620 | is emblematic of the entire conversation.

04:47:56.780 | I don't think anything--

04:47:57.620 | - And let me finish answering

04:47:58.740 | Benny Morris's question. - Well, sure,

04:47:59.580 | but you accused me of supporting racism, so yeah.

04:48:01.500 | - Well, you did, and you are.

04:48:03.280 | - I did it, do you think I support Jim Crow laws?

04:48:06.420 | - Look, when--

04:48:07.240 | - The fact that you can't even answer that honestly, right?

04:48:08.860 | - It doesn't matter what--

04:48:09.700 | - You wouldn't say that 800 civilians

04:48:10.780 | were killed by Hamas.

04:48:12.060 | You said, well, maybe 400 were killed by Israel.

04:48:14.140 | - No, I didn't say that. - I don't know the number,

04:48:15.100 | maybe. - No, I didn't say that.

04:48:15.940 | - Yes, you said 400. - No, I didn't say that.

04:48:17.300 | - You co-signed the opinion.

04:48:18.580 | - No, I didn't. - No, I didn't.

04:48:19.420 | - He said majority-- - No, I didn't.

04:48:20.260 | - Well, wait, how many, what do you,

04:48:21.780 | I think the word was some, that's what I heard.

04:48:23.700 | - No, I think-- - Well, you weren't listening.

04:48:25.300 | - How many people do you think approximately,

04:48:26.780 | if you had to ballpark it,

04:48:28.540 | how many do you think were killed by Hamas on October 7th?

04:48:30.700 | - I think it's pretty clear that the majority of civilians

04:48:35.340 | that were killed-- - That's what you said.

04:48:36.300 | - 51% or 90%?

04:48:38.500 | - Don't ask me to put a number--

04:48:40.100 | - I just want to ballpark.

04:48:40.940 | Those are two very different intuitions.

04:48:42.340 | - First of all, when you say Hamas,

04:48:44.460 | do you mean Palestinians,

04:48:45.420 | or do you mean Hamas specifically?

04:48:46.260 | - I mean the invading Palestinian force.

04:48:47.820 | I don't like to say Palestinians,

04:48:49.060 | because I don't think all Palestinian civilians

04:48:50.780 | were involved in attacks.

04:48:51.620 | I'll say Hamas, Islamic Jihad, whatever, al-Quds,

04:48:53.820 | whatever other-- - But that's how

04:48:54.660 | this discussion started.

04:48:55.700 | You said Hamas, and I began to answer that,

04:48:57.820 | and then Benny Morris said, actually,

04:48:59.780 | he means Hamas in addition to Jihad and the others, so.

04:49:03.020 | - So of the invading Palestinian force,

04:49:06.020 | how many do you think killed civilians versus the IDF?

04:49:08.420 | What do you think, the ballpark, the percentage?

04:49:10.060 | - Well, the figures we have are that about a third

04:49:12.900 | of the casualties on October 7th were military,

04:49:15.420 | and about 2/3 were-- - That's not what I asked at all.

04:49:16.820 | - What's your question?

04:49:17.660 | - How many, what percentage of civilians--

04:49:19.660 | - How many of the 2/3? - I think were killed

04:49:20.500 | by the invading force, a ballpark.

04:49:22.340 | - I think a clear majority,

04:49:23.660 | but I can't give you a specific figure.

04:49:25.700 | - If you thought it was closer to 51% or 99%,

04:49:28.300 | were killed by-- - Why would he know that?

04:49:30.220 | How would he know that? - It's because it's interesting

04:49:31.700 | to actually stake out a position.

04:49:33.180 | - Yeah, it's interesting-- - If you want to be

04:49:34.140 | completely, totally agnostic on it, that's fine.

04:49:35.660 | - They start complete ignorance,

04:49:37.660 | because we don't know, Professor Morris doesn't know,

04:49:40.740 | Muin Rabbani doesn't know-- - And yet you can speak

04:49:41.940 | with absolute certainty that the IDF is targeting

04:49:44.380 | and murdering Palestinian children intentionally.

04:49:46.700 | Do you see the double standard?

04:49:47.700 | - No, I don't, you see-- - I know you don't.

04:49:49.500 | - I know, I don't see it, you know why?

04:49:52.020 | Because I looked at the UN report.

04:49:55.860 | I looked at the UN-- - The Goldstone report?

04:49:57.300 | - No, the UN report on the Great March of Return in 2018,

04:50:02.300 | and they said that the snipers were targeting

04:50:06.620 | children, medics, journalists, and disabled people.

04:50:11.540 | - Just as they are now in this conflict.

04:50:13.540 | - Exactly.

04:50:14.580 | - No, more journalists have been killed

04:50:17.660 | in the last several months in Gaza

04:50:19.620 | than in any other conflict. - Do you acknowledge that?

04:50:21.420 | - And in all of World War II. - Let me finish.

04:50:22.240 | - Do you acknowledge that Hamas--

04:50:23.080 | - And in all of World War II. - That's great,

04:50:24.500 | the comparison is fun. - Hamas is not killing

04:50:25.960 | journalists in the Gaza Strip.

04:50:26.800 | - Does Hamas, do you agree that they operate

04:50:28.540 | in civilian uniforms, that their goal

04:50:29.900 | is to induce that confusion, that that's the way

04:50:32.240 | that they conduct themselves militarily?

04:50:33.780 | - Let me finish my point.

04:50:34.980 | More journalists have been-- - I understand.

04:50:37.180 | - More U.S-- - He doesn't wanna hear it.

04:50:39.420 | So far, it's fine. - No, because it's virtue--

04:50:40.620 | - It's so far. - You're not having

04:50:41.460 | a material, a substantial-- - Virtue signaling.

04:50:42.980 | - It is virtue signaling. - Virtue signaling, yeah.

04:50:44.380 | - Yes, like when you say children over and over again,

04:50:46.220 | that's virtue signaling. - But talking about,

04:50:47.300 | you know, you have this-- - Talking about how many,

04:50:48.920 | you have this habit of mocking the dead.

04:50:49.760 | - Talking about how many Israelis were killed,

04:50:51.700 | that's not virtue signaling, 'cause that's human life.

04:50:54.780 | - I don't care about, I don't care

04:50:56.180 | if 100 are killed or 1,000 are, I'm curious

04:50:58.100 | who you're assigning blame to. - You just interrogate

04:50:59.460 | 51%, 90%, and then-- - I'm curious

04:51:00.620 | who you're assigning the question, yes.

04:51:02.360 | - And then Muin-- - That's not the number,

04:51:03.780 | that's the responsibility norm.

04:51:05.380 | - And then Muin, Muin mentions that more journalists

04:51:09.460 | were killed in Gaza than in all of World War II.

04:51:12.760 | - That doesn't get it, that doesn't

04:51:13.660 | further any part of the-- - And more medics

04:51:15.660 | were killed in Gaza. - No, no, that's silly.

04:51:17.500 | - And then he says-- - Journalists--

04:51:19.140 | - It's virtue signaling. - Weren't on the area.

04:51:21.300 | - But when Israelis get killed, that's serious.

04:51:25.060 | - I never said it's serious on both sides.

04:51:26.820 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I didn't say it's federal.

04:51:28.740 | - No, no, no, no, I'm not virtue signaling.

04:51:31.240 | I'm asking a substantive question

04:51:32.620 | of who do you assign blame to,

04:51:33.860 | or do you play into Norm Finkelstein's conspiracies

04:51:36.140 | that the ambulances should have known immediately

04:51:38.100 | who was dead, that the numbers were changed

04:51:39.660 | 'cause they were fake, or that maybe 51%

04:51:42.340 | of the people were killed by Hamas and Islamic Jihad,

04:51:45.500 | but 49% were killed by IED helicopters.

04:51:48.140 | - You asked me a direct question,

04:51:49.660 | and you got a direct answer. - I didn't, I got majority,

04:51:52.000 | which could be-- - I said a clear,

04:51:53.380 | I said a clear majority. - What percent

04:51:55.820 | is a clear majority?

04:51:56.980 | As opposed to a majority-- - It's always,

04:51:57.820 | they live in ambiguity, of course.

04:51:58.640 | - A clear majority, in my view, is well over 50%.

04:52:01.220 | Please don't ask me to be more precise,

04:52:03.620 | because I can't-- - You could say 80, 90, 95%.

04:52:06.580 | - If I knew that, I would say it.

04:52:08.180 | - I think it's a reasonable, it's a reasonable--

04:52:10.180 | - Perhaps it is, but I--

04:52:11.820 | - You're not the best person to be asking that question.

04:52:15.820 | You know, I read when you wrote,

04:52:17.500 | described Operation Defensive Shield,

04:52:20.540 | and you said a few dozen homes were destroyed.

04:52:23.180 | - You're talking about what happened

04:52:24.100 | in the Jinnian refugee camp. - And you said--

04:52:25.940 | - No, the Arabs said 500.

04:52:27.540 | You guys said 500 Palestinians were killed in Jinnian.

04:52:31.100 | - No, no, no. - I never said that.

04:52:32.300 | I never said that. - No, but that was

04:52:33.340 | the statement of the PLO, the Palestinian Authority.

04:52:36.500 | - You said a few dozen homes-- - And that there were

04:52:37.900 | massacres there. - There were a few

04:52:39.100 | dozen homes ago. - Yes, a few dozen homes.

04:52:40.380 | - Yeah. - That's right.

04:52:41.220 | - Well, it turned out 140 buildings were destroyed.

04:52:44.660 | 5,000 people, 5,000 people were left homeless.

04:52:49.220 | - How many were killed? - You just, 5,000.

04:52:50.900 | - How many were killed? - You described it,

04:52:52.180 | no, I'm talking about homes destroyed.

04:52:54.300 | So you're not the best person to be criticizing

04:52:57.740 | what Muin says when he says clear majority,

04:53:01.260 | but he can't say more.

04:53:02.300 | You know why he can't say more?

04:53:03.500 | - He doesn't know. - He doesn't know.

04:53:05.380 | - Yeah, yeah, I understand that.

04:53:06.740 | - I hope as a historian-- - If I was trying to belittle,

04:53:10.180 | I would give you a very different answer.

04:53:11.780 | I would just say, I don't know.

04:53:13.300 | I do know that somewhere-- - The right phrase,

04:53:14.140 | do you know what the right phrase there would be?

04:53:16.220 | The overwhelming majority were killed by Arab gunmen,

04:53:20.300 | and very small number were killed by Israelis

04:53:23.140 | by accident or whatever.

04:53:24.700 | That's probably true. - You're not speaking

04:53:25.540 | as a historian, though. - That's probably true.

04:53:26.900 | - That may be, I can state with confidence

04:53:29.980 | a clear majority, overwhelming majority.

04:53:32.620 | You may be correct, but I can't state that with certainty.

04:53:35.660 | I think there's a very easy way to find out,

04:53:37.660 | is to have a independent-- - Forget independent.

04:53:40.780 | - I know you don't-- - Well, of course

04:53:41.940 | you forget independent. - Forget the law.

04:53:43.020 | - Forget, that doesn't mean anything.

04:53:43.860 | - Forget the law. - Independent as you want.

04:53:45.900 | - Independent as you want. - Forget independent

04:53:47.740 | as you want. - Human rights, Robert.

04:53:48.580 | - Not necessarily. - Just repeat the numbers.

04:53:50.100 | - They're all barbaric countries.

04:53:53.380 | Assyrian was the head of the UN Commission for Human Rights.

04:53:56.220 | - But if it wasn't Israeli, it would have been okay.

04:53:58.300 | - He certainly would have been more honest than Assyrian.

04:54:00.060 | - Of course, oh yeah, from your perspective.

04:54:02.140 | - Well, to disagree with Stephen,

04:54:03.780 | I thought this was extremely valuable.

04:54:06.900 | At times, really, the view of history, the passion.

04:54:13.700 | - I'm really grateful that you would spend

04:54:18.060 | your really valuable time, and just one more question,

04:54:20.940 | since we have two historians here.

04:54:25.500 | Well, just briefly, from a history perspective,

04:54:29.660 | what do you hope your legacy as historians,

04:54:32.980 | Benny and Norm, will be of the work

04:54:36.420 | that you've put out there?

04:54:37.620 | Maybe Norm, you can go first, and try to just say briefly.

04:54:41.060 | - I think there's a value to preserving the record.

04:54:44.620 | I'm not optimistic about where things are going to end up.

04:54:49.060 | There was a very nice book written

04:54:50.900 | by a woman named Helen Hunt Jackson,

04:54:53.300 | at the end of the 19th century,

04:54:56.780 | describing what was done to the Native Americans.

04:54:59.540 | She called it a century of dishonor,

04:55:02.140 | and she described in vivid, poignant detail

04:55:06.700 | what was done to the Native Americans.

04:55:09.180 | Did it save them? No.

04:55:10.980 | Did it help them? Probably not.

04:55:15.660 | Did it preserve their memory? Yes.

04:55:18.100 | And I think there's a value to that.

04:55:20.580 | You know, there was a famous film by Eisenstein,

04:55:24.660 | Sergei Eisenstein.

04:55:26.340 | It was either "Battleship Potemkin" or "Mother."

04:55:28.940 | I can't remember which one.

04:55:31.260 | The last scene was the czar's troops

04:55:35.340 | mowing down all the Russian people.

04:55:38.700 | He pans the scene.

04:55:40.260 | - Not all the Russian people, just a few.

04:55:42.300 | - Well, he pans the massacre.

04:55:44.540 | He pans the massacre.

04:55:46.220 | - But he could have killed a lot more.

04:55:47.700 | (laughing)

04:55:49.220 | - And the last words of the movie were,

04:55:51.900 | "Proletarians, exclamation point.

04:55:55.220 | "Remember, exclamation point."

04:55:58.500 | And I've seen it as my life's work to preserve the memory,

04:56:02.940 | and to remember.

04:56:04.820 | I didn't expect that anyone would read my book on Gaza.

04:56:08.500 | It's very dense.

04:56:10.420 | It gives me even a bit of a headache

04:56:12.660 | to read at least one of the chapters.

04:56:14.900 | - You wrote a book on Gaza.

04:56:16.140 | (laughing)

04:56:17.660 | - But I thought that the memory deserves to be preserved.

04:56:21.740 | - Amen.

04:56:22.860 | - Well, I would just say very briefly,

04:56:25.140 | unlike my colleague, I think writing the truth

04:56:28.780 | about what happened in history,

04:56:30.860 | in various periods of history,

04:56:33.340 | if I've done a little bit of that, I'm happy.

04:56:36.940 | - Thank you, Norm.

04:56:37.780 | Thank you, Benny.

04:56:38.620 | Thank you, Stephen.

04:56:39.440 | Thank you, Maureen.

04:56:41.060 | Thanks for listening to this conversation

04:56:42.740 | with Norman Finklestein, Benny Morris,

04:56:45.420 | Maureen Rabbani, and Stephen Bunnell.

04:56:48.180 | To support this podcast,

04:56:49.220 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

04:56:51.580 | And now, let me leave you with some words

04:56:53.260 | from Lyndon B. Johnson.

04:56:55.340 | "Peace is a journey of a thousand miles,

04:56:58.500 | "and it must be taken one step at a time."

04:57:02.220 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

04:57:06.260 | (upbeat music)

04:57:08.840 | (upbeat music)

04:57:11.420 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Israel-Palestine Debate: Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris | Lex Fridman Podcast #418

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