Pleasure Is Only Protected by Pleasure
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.580 | We're honored to be joined by speaker and author Paul Tripp
00:00:07.880 | on the Ask Pastor John podcast this week.
00:00:10.840 | Paul, you are like-minded to our ministry.
00:00:13.760 | You seem to get Christian hedonism
00:00:15.720 | about as well as anyone.
00:00:16.900 | You understand that life is competing glories.
00:00:20.040 | You understand the expulsive power of a new affection.
00:00:23.200 | You get these dynamics.
00:00:25.320 | And it seems like your contribution to the church
00:00:27.580 | is really helping others to apply these realities
00:00:30.520 | to everyday life.
00:00:31.760 | Would you agree with that?
00:00:33.360 | Yeah, I think that's true.
00:00:35.640 | And I think much of what I do
00:00:39.000 | in terms of the gospel and everyday life
00:00:41.880 | is driven by those glory themes
00:00:44.160 | that I think John really influenced for me
00:00:47.400 | earlier in my ministry.
00:00:49.720 | And man, I think life this side of eternity
00:00:54.640 | is just one big glory war.
00:00:56.560 | Yeah, and so you do this with a very concrete application.
00:00:59.840 | Yeah, and I think that's the piece of the puzzle
00:01:02.840 | that God has entrusted to me.
00:01:04.360 | I think of myself as a theologian,
00:01:06.800 | but I do it in the street.
00:01:08.680 | And you do it with style.
00:01:10.480 | (Paul laughs)
00:01:11.960 | Okay, let's get to work.
00:01:13.960 | We are grateful to have you on.
00:01:15.560 | Here's question number one for you.
00:01:18.240 | The world is full of beauty and pleasure,
00:01:20.980 | all by God's design, all by God's intent.
00:01:24.240 | It's wonderful.
00:01:25.240 | In one of your more recent books called "Sex and Money,"
00:01:29.080 | you make this very perceptive point.
00:01:30.880 | You say this, quote,
00:01:32.080 | "Boundless pleasure is a deception," end quote.
00:01:36.760 | Explain that.
00:01:37.600 | What do you mean when you say
00:01:38.440 | that boundless pleasure is a deception?
00:01:41.840 | Well, pleasure can never be an end in itself.
00:01:44.680 | I can never just say,
00:01:47.160 | "I'm gonna go wherever pleasure leads me,"
00:01:50.280 | because pleasure requires boundaries.
00:01:54.420 | And that is because my heart is always living
00:01:59.420 | under the rulership of something,
00:02:01.560 | and what controls my heart will control my body.
00:02:04.320 | And so I must not let pleasure,
00:02:09.480 | the pursuit of pleasure, be the thing that rules me.
00:02:14.120 | Now, here's where I think the church has gotten this wrong.
00:02:18.320 | We have thought the way to solve that
00:02:20.820 | is by being pleasure negative.
00:02:23.680 | And pleasure itself is actually God-glorified.
00:02:27.840 | God created an incredibly pleasurable world.
00:02:32.000 | It's just, it greets us every day.
00:02:34.240 | All the sights and sounds and colors and tastes
00:02:36.960 | and textures are just magnificent.
00:02:39.840 | They're pleasurable.
00:02:41.220 | And God created our bodies
00:02:43.400 | so that we have all kinds of pleasure gates,
00:02:46.380 | our eyes, our nose, our mouth, our ears, our hands.
00:02:49.920 | I mean, those things are not wrong.
00:02:52.200 | They sing to the glory of God.
00:02:56.000 | Here's the ticket with pleasure.
00:02:57.880 | My pursuit of pleasure, my enjoyment of pleasure,
00:03:02.880 | must submit itself to a greater pleasure
00:03:07.180 | than physical pleasure.
00:03:08.840 | And that's the pleasure of God.
00:03:10.480 | I think I say in this chapter
00:03:13.320 | that pleasure is only protected by pleasure.
00:03:17.440 | It's the greater pleasure of God
00:03:20.840 | that my joy in my relationship with God,
00:03:25.160 | my joy in pleasing God, my celebration of God's grace,
00:03:29.900 | my desire to live the way this beautiful creator made me
00:03:34.520 | that protects me from a slavery to pleasure
00:03:39.360 | that gets me in trouble.
00:03:40.460 | So pleasure, pleasure requires boundaries.
00:03:43.720 | And I think that where our culture is, is this.
00:03:48.160 | If it's got boundaries, it's not pleasurable.
00:03:50.600 | And that's dangerous.
00:03:51.960 | Don't give me any boundaries.
00:03:54.680 | Because when you give me boundaries, you crush pleasure.
00:03:58.380 | I think the opposite is true.
00:04:00.080 | Boundaryless pleasure crushes pleasure
00:04:04.120 | because it becomes a slaving, addicting,
00:04:06.800 | dark and destructive and hurtful.
00:04:10.640 | - Yeah, so sin is the lie that unbounded pleasures
00:04:14.800 | are the path to true joy.
00:04:17.360 | - Sure, and where do you see that first?
00:04:19.960 | You see that in the garden.
00:04:21.160 | I mean, you have just incredibly pleasurable place
00:04:25.800 | made beautiful by God,
00:04:27.720 | placing Adam and Eve in the middle of it
00:04:29.720 | so they can enjoy its beauty.
00:04:31.800 | But there were some boundaries.
00:04:34.000 | And that first act of rebellion
00:04:37.520 | is a rebellion against the boundaries that God set.
00:04:41.420 | They weren't driven, Adam and Eve weren't driven
00:04:43.480 | because there was pleasure outside of the boundaries
00:04:46.580 | and they long to experience those pleasures.
00:04:49.840 | There were glories inside the boundaries.
00:04:52.720 | They didn't want boundaries.
00:04:54.680 | And we've been pushing against boundaries ever since.
00:04:57.940 | That's the biblical word for sin called trespass.
00:05:01.400 | What is a trespass?
00:05:02.800 | A trespass is stepping over a boundary.
00:05:06.660 | When I park in the no parking zone and I see the sign,
00:05:10.800 | that's a trespass because it's a willing rebellion
00:05:14.520 | against a boundary that has been set for me.
00:05:17.300 | - Thank you, Paul.
00:05:19.000 | That's Paul Tripp, the author of the book, "Sex and Money."
00:05:22.160 | You should check it out.
00:05:23.000 | It's a very helpful book.
00:05:24.920 | And you can get everything you need to know
00:05:27.120 | about this podcast at our landing page.
00:05:29.340 | Go to desiringgod.org/askpastorjohn.
00:05:34.340 | I'm your host, Tony Reinke.
00:05:36.080 | We'll be back tomorrow with a guest, Paul Tripp.
00:05:38.480 | (upbeat music)
00:05:41.060 | (upbeat music)
00:05:43.640 | [BLANK_AUDIO]