(upbeat music) We're honored to be joined by speaker and author Paul Tripp on the Ask Pastor John podcast this week. Paul, you are like-minded to our ministry. You seem to get Christian hedonism about as well as anyone. You understand that life is competing glories. You understand the expulsive power of a new affection.

You get these dynamics. And it seems like your contribution to the church is really helping others to apply these realities to everyday life. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think that's true. And I think much of what I do in terms of the gospel and everyday life is driven by those glory themes that I think John really influenced for me earlier in my ministry.

And man, I think life this side of eternity is just one big glory war. Yeah, and so you do this with a very concrete application. Yeah, and I think that's the piece of the puzzle that God has entrusted to me. I think of myself as a theologian, but I do it in the street.

And you do it with style. (Paul laughs) Okay, let's get to work. We are grateful to have you on. Here's question number one for you. The world is full of beauty and pleasure, all by God's design, all by God's intent. It's wonderful. In one of your more recent books called "Sex and Money," you make this very perceptive point.

You say this, quote, "Boundless pleasure is a deception," end quote. Explain that. What do you mean when you say that boundless pleasure is a deception? Well, pleasure can never be an end in itself. I can never just say, "I'm gonna go wherever pleasure leads me," because pleasure requires boundaries.

And that is because my heart is always living under the rulership of something, and what controls my heart will control my body. And so I must not let pleasure, the pursuit of pleasure, be the thing that rules me. Now, here's where I think the church has gotten this wrong.

We have thought the way to solve that is by being pleasure negative. And pleasure itself is actually God-glorified. God created an incredibly pleasurable world. It's just, it greets us every day. All the sights and sounds and colors and tastes and textures are just magnificent. They're pleasurable. And God created our bodies so that we have all kinds of pleasure gates, our eyes, our nose, our mouth, our ears, our hands.

I mean, those things are not wrong. They sing to the glory of God. Here's the ticket with pleasure. My pursuit of pleasure, my enjoyment of pleasure, must submit itself to a greater pleasure than physical pleasure. And that's the pleasure of God. I think I say in this chapter that pleasure is only protected by pleasure.

It's the greater pleasure of God that my joy in my relationship with God, my joy in pleasing God, my celebration of God's grace, my desire to live the way this beautiful creator made me that protects me from a slavery to pleasure that gets me in trouble. So pleasure, pleasure requires boundaries.

And I think that where our culture is, is this. If it's got boundaries, it's not pleasurable. And that's dangerous. Don't give me any boundaries. Because when you give me boundaries, you crush pleasure. I think the opposite is true. Boundaryless pleasure crushes pleasure because it becomes a slaving, addicting, dark and destructive and hurtful.

- Yeah, so sin is the lie that unbounded pleasures are the path to true joy. - Sure, and where do you see that first? You see that in the garden. I mean, you have just incredibly pleasurable place made beautiful by God, placing Adam and Eve in the middle of it so they can enjoy its beauty.

But there were some boundaries. And that first act of rebellion is a rebellion against the boundaries that God set. They weren't driven, Adam and Eve weren't driven because there was pleasure outside of the boundaries and they long to experience those pleasures. There were glories inside the boundaries. They didn't want boundaries.

And we've been pushing against boundaries ever since. That's the biblical word for sin called trespass. What is a trespass? A trespass is stepping over a boundary. When I park in the no parking zone and I see the sign, that's a trespass because it's a willing rebellion against a boundary that has been set for me.

- Thank you, Paul. That's Paul Tripp, the author of the book, "Sex and Money." You should check it out. It's a very helpful book. And you can get everything you need to know about this podcast at our landing page. Go to desiringgod.org/askpastorjohn. I'm your host, Tony Reinke. We'll be back tomorrow with a guest, Paul Tripp.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music)