Matthew Cox: FBI Most Wanted Con Man - $55 Million in Bank Fraud

00:00:00.000 | She found like $40,000 in cash in my freezer one night.

00:00:05.000 | So she's like, "What is going on?"

00:00:09.140 | So we have this conversation and I tell her,

00:00:11.600 | "Look, people are looking for me."

00:00:15.360 | Who?

00:00:16.200 | Law enforcement.

00:00:17.020 | Which ones?

00:00:17.860 | All of them.

00:00:19.040 | She's like, "That doesn't even, for what?"

00:00:21.860 | I go, "Mostly bank fraud."

00:00:26.740 | And she's like, "Well, how are they not finding you?"

00:00:30.760 | I mean, everybody, people know you,

00:00:33.160 | like your general contractor,

00:00:35.040 | which I met four months before.

00:00:36.800 | This guy six months before, this one two months before.

00:00:39.840 | She's like, "So-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so."

00:00:41.060 | And I'm like, "Right, right, well."

00:00:42.720 | I said, "Well," she's like, "I mean, they've got your name.

00:00:45.080 | "They've got your," I go, "Well, that's identity theft."

00:00:47.520 | And she was like, "What do you mean?"

00:00:49.760 | I said, "Well, my name's not,

00:00:51.360 | "my name's not, it's not Joseph Carter."

00:00:53.640 | "What is your name?"

00:00:56.120 | I go, "Look, you know, you don't even worry about it."

00:00:59.980 | - The following is a conversation with Matthew Cox,

00:01:04.820 | a con man recently released from federal prison

00:01:07.500 | where he served 13 years for bank fraud, mortgage fraud,

00:01:11.660 | identity theft, passport fraud, and other charges.

00:01:15.140 | He has admitted guilt to all of it.

00:01:17.980 | He has written true crime stories

00:01:19.420 | of many of his fellow prisoners,

00:01:21.140 | and now he continues this work

00:01:23.260 | by interviewing criminals about their crimes

00:01:25.940 | on his YouTube channel that I recommend

00:01:28.320 | called Inside True Crime.

00:01:30.560 | Exploring the mind of a criminal

00:01:33.540 | is exploring human nature at the extremes,

00:01:36.820 | often in its most raw and illuminating form.

00:01:40.680 | And that is something I definitely want to do

00:01:42.680 | with this podcast, to understand the human mind

00:01:46.400 | and everything it is capable of.

00:01:48.680 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:01:51.800 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:01:53.720 | in the description.

00:01:54.940 | And now, dear friends, here's Matthew Cox.

00:01:58.280 | What was the first crime you committed?

00:02:03.060 | - The first mortgage I ever did.

00:02:04.820 | - A mortgage is me borrowing money

00:02:06.900 | from a bank to buy a house.

00:02:09.540 | How can you find a way to commit crime in this?

00:02:13.380 | How can you do fraud in this space?

00:02:16.660 | - It's very difficult for the average guy to commit fraud

00:02:20.820 | because there's so many safeguards set up.

00:02:24.100 | If you were to go in and say,

00:02:26.140 | "I make $300,000 a year."

00:02:28.660 | Okay, well, we want your W-2s, we want your paystubs,

00:02:31.100 | we're gonna call your employer,

00:02:32.060 | we're gonna check to make sure your employer,

00:02:33.500 | how long they've been incorporated,

00:02:34.760 | we're gonna check to make sure they're registered.

00:02:36.740 | It's like, ugh, your whole plan fell apart

00:02:39.060 | because the average guy can't do that.

00:02:41.260 | He can't even come up with the paystub and W-2.

00:02:43.900 | So the average person, or I'm gonna put down

00:02:47.620 | this much money, but you're gonna borrow that money

00:02:49.580 | from the seller, you know?

00:02:51.980 | Okay, well, then they start asking for bank statements.

00:02:55.180 | Where did the money come from?

00:02:56.100 | How long has it been in your bank?

00:02:57.460 | Like, you can't even have it put in your bank for a day,

00:02:59.140 | get a letter, you know, it's gotta have been there

00:03:00.500 | for 90 days or 60 days, depending on the bank.

00:03:03.460 | And so there's all these ways for the average person.

00:03:06.900 | It's very difficult to commit fraud.

00:03:08.620 | The average guy that works at Walmart

00:03:10.820 | and makes $60,000 a year and he's been there for five years

00:03:14.100 | and he saved his deposit, like, it's a very,

00:03:16.980 | that's really the guy that those transactions

00:03:20.020 | are set up for.

00:03:21.100 | To borrow a mortgage from Bank of America,

00:03:22.580 | that's the guy they're looking for.

00:03:24.220 | - So to commit fraud in this space,

00:03:26.180 | you have to misrepresent some aspect of your identity,

00:03:30.220 | of how much you're worth, how much money you have,

00:03:32.860 | this kind of stuff?

00:03:33.700 | - Right, you have to be able to lie to the bank.

00:03:36.100 | Anytime you lie to the bank, you've committed fraud.

00:03:38.500 | And it's funny, when I was doing it,

00:03:40.460 | I would say, ah, it's in the gray area.

00:03:42.380 | There's no gray area where you're either lying

00:03:44.740 | in some capacity or you're not.

00:03:46.800 | So, for instance, the very first loan I did,

00:03:51.100 | I whited out my borrower, had been 30 days late on her rent.

00:03:56.100 | So they're really looking at the last two years.

00:04:05.220 | So when you go in the bank and most of what they're asking

00:04:08.060 | is a two-year window.

00:04:09.820 | They're saying, how long have you been on their job?

00:04:11.900 | They care about two years.

00:04:13.900 | And how long have you been at your residency?

00:04:17.340 | They're looking for two years.

00:04:18.680 | Now, you could be at three places in two years, that's fine,

00:04:21.000 | as long as you consistently paid for two years.

00:04:25.000 | Well, she had been in an apartment complex,

00:04:27.320 | but she'd been 30 days late.

00:04:28.940 | Now, she caught it up, but she was late.

00:04:31.240 | The bank doesn't want to lend you money

00:04:35.000 | if you've been 30 days late.

00:04:38.000 | So I was a broker and I whited out the 30-day late.

00:04:42.920 | I just got rid of it.

00:04:43.980 | And my manager is the person that told me to do it.

00:04:47.440 | She said, it'll be fine.

00:04:50.400 | And she was right, it was.

00:04:52.120 | - What did it feel like?

00:04:53.000 | So that was the first fraudulent action you committed.

00:04:56.880 | - Yeah, I mean, I was worried.

00:05:01.880 | I always say, I sweated bullets for four or five days.

00:05:06.760 | But I mean, I was concerned.

00:05:08.960 | And I don't know that I was concerned

00:05:11.160 | that I had broken the law.

00:05:14.240 | I was concerned because I was behind on my truck payment.

00:05:19.240 | I was behind on my mortgage.

00:05:21.760 | I had banked on being a mortgage broker

00:05:25.600 | and I'd gone deep, deep behind on all my bills to do this.

00:05:29.640 | So at the last minute when this loan isn't gonna close

00:05:32.760 | and I have to commit fraud to make that happen.

00:05:35.800 | And the idea, my fear was they were gonna figure it out

00:05:39.300 | and maybe I'd get fired.

00:05:41.500 | I didn't think I was gonna go to jail

00:05:42.760 | because my manager assured me, you're not going to jail.

00:05:45.720 | You'll get fired at best.

00:05:47.940 | So my concern was they were gonna catch it

00:05:51.740 | and I'd get fired and I wouldn't get paid.

00:05:54.080 | Like I needed that money so bad.

00:05:56.640 | - So we'll maybe paint the picture here.

00:05:58.840 | Where were you working?

00:05:59.680 | Who was the manager?

00:06:00.880 | - The manager, what is funny,

00:06:02.520 | 'cause I don't think I ever really mentioned this.

00:06:05.580 | Her name was Gretchen Zayas.

00:06:07.640 | She eventually, I don't mind saying it,

00:06:09.240 | but she eventually ended up going to jail for fraud.

00:06:11.560 | Her name was Gretchen Zayas and she was the manager.

00:06:14.360 | I was working for a company called Eagle Lending

00:06:17.020 | and it was in Tampa and this was like my first month.

00:06:21.820 | So my very first deal, three or four weeks into it,

00:06:25.900 | into that first month and I walk in,

00:06:28.740 | I put the file in front of my manager.

00:06:32.420 | She looks through everything.

00:06:34.300 | Oh, great, good, good.

00:06:36.620 | And put this one piece of paper over here and sat there.

00:06:40.380 | And then when she was done, I said, "What's going on?"

00:06:44.720 | She goes, "Perfect, file's perfect."

00:06:46.340 | She goes, "But your borrower's 30 days late on her rent."

00:06:50.700 | And she says, "It's done."

00:06:52.540 | She's like, "That's a deal killer."

00:06:54.220 | And I was like, "Oh my gosh, what do I do?"

00:06:56.140 | And I remember she pulled out a thing, a whiteout.

00:06:58.900 | Remember the whiteout?

00:06:59.740 | Not the sticks, but the one, shh, shh, shh.

00:07:01.100 | And she started going, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh.

00:07:02.580 | And I was like, "What?"

00:07:03.700 | She goes, "If I was you."

00:07:05.740 | And she handed, she said, "I'd white it out,

00:07:07.020 | "make a copy, stick it back in the file."

00:07:09.460 | She said, "It'll be fine."

00:07:10.900 | And I went, I was like, "That's fraud.

00:07:12.940 | "I could go to jail."

00:07:13.780 | And she goes, and she was like,

00:07:15.520 | "They're never gonna catch it."

00:07:17.780 | She said, "Look, we do stuff, I do stuff all the time."

00:07:19.860 | She said, "They're not gonna catch it."

00:07:21.380 | And nobody's calling the FBI.

00:07:22.820 | She goes, "Worst case scenario,

00:07:25.820 | "if underwriting catches it, then they'll fire you.

00:07:30.820 | "That's it, nobody's calling, you're not going to jail."

00:07:33.660 | And I was, you know, I trusted her.

00:07:35.100 | I was like, "Okay."

00:07:36.780 | And so I did what she said, I stuck it in the file.

00:07:41.660 | And I mean, like I said, for four or five days,

00:07:43.900 | I was like, "Oh my God, I'm so scared."

00:07:45.820 | - How old were you at this point?

00:07:46.780 | - Probably 29, I think it was 29.

00:07:49.140 | You know, like I had gone to college

00:07:51.740 | and so many things had not worked out.

00:07:54.960 | You know, I got a degree in fine arts.

00:07:57.660 | It's not, there's not a lot of people looking

00:08:00.780 | for anyone with a fine arts degree.

00:08:02.860 | And, you know, I tried to be an insurance adjuster.

00:08:07.860 | Tried that for about a year, year and a half.

00:08:11.660 | That didn't work out.

00:08:12.740 | Ended up working construction for a few years.

00:08:18.620 | And, you know, so finally, the girl I was dating said,

00:08:23.120 | "You gotta be a mortgage broker."

00:08:24.320 | You know, she had just started as a mortgage,

00:08:26.220 | in the mortgage industry.

00:08:27.540 | And she was like, "You have to do this.

00:08:28.640 | "Like you were born to do this.

00:08:29.620 | "This is perfect for you."

00:08:31.340 | - What did she see in you?

00:08:32.740 | - She said, "You're a salesman."

00:08:34.500 | And I was like, 'cause I was like,

00:08:35.940 | you know, I barely balanced my checkbook.

00:08:37.700 | Like, I don't know anything about numbers.

00:08:39.180 | She was like, "It has nothing to do with that.

00:08:41.060 | "It's sales, it's putting together deals.

00:08:43.720 | "You know, you're good at that.

00:08:44.580 | "You're good at negotiating.

00:08:45.740 | "You're a natural sales salesman."

00:08:49.860 | And I figured I needed to try something.

00:08:53.500 | - So what aspect of mortgages is sales and deal making?

00:08:58.500 | What aspects require the charisma that you clearly have?

00:09:02.420 | - Well, one, you have clients that have lots of options.

00:09:06.420 | They can go to Bank of America.

00:09:08.380 | They can go to SunTrust.

00:09:09.740 | They can go to Chase.

00:09:11.400 | They have options, if they have perfect credit.

00:09:13.700 | I ended up working for a company

00:09:14.940 | that was a subprime lender.

00:09:17.780 | And those people didn't have a lot of options.

00:09:19.620 | But honestly, by the time they got to that,

00:09:21.900 | to Eagle Lending, their options were over.

00:09:24.620 | So what ends up happening is you're negotiating with sellers.

00:09:30.140 | You would think that a lot of the stuff

00:09:31.660 | that in that industry that real estate agents should do,

00:09:36.660 | the brokers end up doing.

00:09:39.900 | Because real estate agents are used to,

00:09:44.000 | you meet 'em at the house,

00:09:45.060 | or they take you to several houses.

00:09:46.620 | They open the door, they walk around.

00:09:50.340 | They write up a contract that's legit, a legit contract.

00:09:54.320 | And you're already pre-approved.

00:09:58.980 | Everything works out.

00:10:00.740 | But subprime, that's not the case.

00:10:03.980 | You got borrowers with horrific job history.

00:10:07.500 | They don't have enough of the down payment.

00:10:09.500 | They can't, maybe they have the down payment,

00:10:10.960 | but they don't have the closing costs.

00:10:12.220 | So you have to go to the real estate agent and say,

00:10:14.220 | "Listen, I need you to raise the purchase price

00:10:16.700 | "and have the seller pay the closing costs."

00:10:21.060 | Which is legal, but that's not, to a degree.

00:10:24.420 | But that's not how they wrote up the contract.

00:10:26.680 | So now you're having to get them to rewrite the contract.

00:10:29.240 | Or there's little things you're trying to do.

00:10:32.160 | And the more deals you get done,

00:10:35.160 | and the more you deal with certain real estate agents,

00:10:37.320 | the more you start to realize that they're,

00:10:41.960 | you know which ones are completely above board

00:10:45.560 | and which ones are willing to twist the rules.

00:10:49.060 | - And a lot of it works on personal relationships.

00:10:52.120 | - Right, right.

00:10:52.960 | For some reason, people tend to like me and trust me.

00:10:57.960 | - Yeah.

00:10:59.040 | - I don't know why it hasn't worked out for so many people,

00:11:04.040 | but people naturally seem to trust me.

00:11:07.600 | And so if I say, "Hey, I can close the loan,

00:11:09.780 | "but you gotta do this, it'll be cool.

00:11:12.020 | "Don't worry, we do it all the time.

00:11:13.280 | "It's like my third loan."

00:11:14.820 | And you know, I've been doing this for years,

00:11:16.640 | and they go, "Oh, okay."

00:11:18.200 | And then they raise the purchase price, they add some money.

00:11:20.680 | They have the seller of the house give the borrower

00:11:22.920 | some money, they stick it in the bank,

00:11:24.600 | or they put it in an escrow at the closing company.

00:11:27.040 | Like now you're starting to massage deals.

00:11:30.200 | - What was the second time you committed a crime?

00:11:32.040 | So how did it start to evolve from the whiteout?

00:11:35.400 | - Well, I mean, when that went through,

00:11:37.480 | you know, I think a normal person probably would have said,

00:11:42.320 | "Wow, it was a one-time thing.

00:11:44.940 | "Got away with it, whew, I'm good."

00:11:47.760 | But for me, it just emboldened me.

00:11:50.640 | Like I just got a check for like,

00:11:52.140 | I don't know what it was, $2,500, $3,500.

00:11:54.400 | I was thrilled.

00:11:55.560 | And by that time, I was already working on another deal.

00:11:58.520 | But that guy, he made, I forget, something like,

00:12:03.160 | he'd made like, let's say $45,000

00:12:07.200 | the year before in his W-2.

00:12:08.680 | If you, based on his current track record,

00:12:14.800 | or his year-to-date of his pay stub,

00:12:17.240 | he made just enough money.

00:12:19.200 | But if you factored in last year's W-2, he was shy.

00:12:24.200 | So if I change that 45,000 to 51,000,

00:12:29.260 | then he could, the loan closes.

00:12:32.960 | I get a check for 3,500 bucks, he gets into a house,

00:12:36.340 | I'm doing him a favor, you know, I'm doing God's work.

00:12:40.140 | So I fix it, I kick back, I'm terrified a little bit,

00:12:45.140 | you know, worried about it.

00:12:47.060 | Sure enough, it closes.

00:12:48.100 | Four or five days later, they call me,

00:12:49.580 | he's ready to close.

00:12:50.520 | A week later, we close, I get a check.

00:12:52.720 | Next guy that comes in, I mean, I got very, very quickly,

00:12:55.900 | I was concerned, do you have a house?

00:13:00.080 | Do you have a deal?

00:13:00.920 | Is it ready?

00:13:01.740 | I can get you done.

00:13:03.280 | Now, if you were in bankruptcy or something,

00:13:04.640 | there's some things you just, you'd pull their credit

00:13:06.320 | and you just couldn't help them if they were,

00:13:08.040 | if they had a 550 credit score or something and no job.

00:13:10.980 | I mean, you know, they had to be within reason.

00:13:13.080 | But very quickly, it was changing W-2s,

00:13:15.240 | changing pay subs, changing appraisals,

00:13:19.420 | you know, fixing, like I said, verification of the rent.

00:13:22.860 | So it evolved very quickly for me.

00:13:28.200 | - And you're essentially helping people.

00:13:30.820 | - That's what I told myself.

00:13:32.540 | - Giving 'em a chance.

00:13:34.580 | People that have been really struggling financially in life.

00:13:38.460 | So you've been telling yourself that this is,

00:13:40.440 | you're doing a good thing for people.

00:13:43.100 | - I told myself that right up until,

00:13:46.220 | that those loans were solid

00:13:48.160 | and I was helping those people out,

00:13:50.500 | right up until I went to prison.

00:13:52.660 | And I was in prison and I had to write,

00:13:56.060 | the government asked me to write an ethics and fraud course

00:13:59.300 | for, to help teach the nation's mortgage brokers.

00:14:03.120 | You know, all loan officers and brokers have to take,

00:14:08.620 | I think it's nine hours of continuing education

00:14:10.920 | every single year.

00:14:12.460 | And I was approached to write the ethics course.

00:14:16.140 | And it was about that time

00:14:18.460 | and about the same period of time

00:14:19.940 | I was writing a book, my book.

00:14:22.780 | And that kind of, I started reflecting on what I had done.

00:14:28.820 | You know, and the truth is like,

00:14:30.460 | and this is a horrible thing to say,

00:14:32.940 | 'cause the first time I ever heard somebody say this,

00:14:34.260 | I remember thinking, oh, that's a horrible thing to say.

00:14:35.940 | Some people should not own a house.

00:14:38.260 | They shouldn't be allowed to borrow.

00:14:40.220 | They're not in a position financially, you know,

00:14:42.940 | and there were many occasions

00:14:45.020 | where I put someone in a house

00:14:46.060 | that they 100% swore they could afford.

00:14:48.980 | It was, I was helping them.

00:14:51.220 | I told myself I was helping them.

00:14:53.860 | And a year and a half later, they're going into foreclosure.

00:14:57.260 | Their stuff's on the corner.

00:14:58.940 | They don't know where to go.

00:15:00.340 | And the truth is, is that I'm not smarter

00:15:03.900 | than the actuaries that came up

00:15:06.260 | with those underwriting guidelines.

00:15:10.100 | - So in this whole process, how are you making money?

00:15:14.100 | Are you taking a percentage? - Broker fee.

00:15:16.100 | Yeah, I charge a broker fee.

00:15:17.420 | Or you charge yield spread.

00:15:19.100 | So yield spread is,

00:15:20.260 | let's say the interest rate is 8% interest.

00:15:23.700 | If I charge them 25 basis points over the 8%,

00:15:27.740 | so I charge them 8 1/4, you know, 8.25,

00:15:32.140 | then I get 1% of the loan back as a fee.

00:15:35.900 | So if I charge them 8 1/2%, I get two points back.

00:15:40.900 | So if it's $100,000 piece of property

00:15:44.180 | and the bank says your interest rate is gonna be 8%

00:15:48.540 | and I tell you 8.5 and I'm charging you a $3,500 broker fee,

00:15:53.540 | now I'm making $5,500.

00:15:57.320 | So on even a $100,000 loan,

00:16:00.480 | you could make a nice chunk of change.

00:16:02.380 | I mean, it's--

00:16:03.980 | - So how much gray area is here?

00:16:05.900 | You said that there really isn't when you're lying or not,

00:16:08.140 | but it feels like there is.

00:16:10.780 | - Well, every time I change something, it wasn't gray area.

00:16:13.060 | I just committed fraud.

00:16:15.100 | At this level, you either meet the guidelines

00:16:17.700 | or someone has massaged it in such a way

00:16:19.700 | that they've committed fraud.

00:16:21.140 | That's it.

00:16:21.980 | There's tons of ways where you can commit fraud

00:16:26.220 | and they just can't figure it out.

00:16:30.660 | Does that make sense?

00:16:31.500 | Like, I mean, you've committed fraud

00:16:33.060 | and it's like they look at the entire,

00:16:35.260 | they look at all the documents

00:16:36.620 | and they double-check everything

00:16:38.020 | and they know there's fraud in here,

00:16:39.260 | they just can't find it.

00:16:40.420 | - Just because they can't find it doesn't mean it's not--

00:16:41.980 | - Doesn't mean it wasn't, exactly.

00:16:43.340 | Doesn't mean it wasn't fraud.

00:16:44.820 | - As part of this, you did a lot of fascinating things.

00:16:46.980 | One of the things you did,

00:16:48.180 | you talked about creating synthetic people,

00:16:51.060 | meaning creating fake identities.

00:16:54.220 | What does it take to do that, to do that well?

00:16:57.220 | - So, your credit profile is made up of your,

00:17:02.540 | your name, date of birth, your address,

00:17:06.060 | and your social security number.

00:17:08.460 | And those are the kind of,

00:17:09.660 | and then there's other things, where you work,

00:17:12.580 | that sort of thing.

00:17:13.540 | But what people don't realize is

00:17:18.180 | there's so many people out there that think

00:17:20.980 | that the credit bureaus already know who you are, right?

00:17:24.820 | But the truth is, the first time the credit bureau

00:17:26.620 | has ever heard about you was when you told them.

00:17:29.460 | The first time you applied for a credit card,

00:17:31.580 | you, they created a credit profile at that moment.

00:17:34.700 | Prior to that, they had no idea.

00:17:36.180 | So the first time you apply, you give them your full name,

00:17:41.100 | date of birth, social security number, and your address.

00:17:44.780 | And they create a credit profile,

00:17:47.300 | and they say, hey, no record found of this person.

00:17:50.380 | He has no credit, nothing, probably got denied.

00:17:53.300 | Well, what I realized through the course of,

00:17:57.300 | 'cause eventually I end up leaving that one company,

00:18:00.540 | and I open my own mortgage company.

00:18:02.300 | When I opened that mortgage company,

00:18:05.620 | I was on the inside.

00:18:10.500 | Does that make sense?

00:18:11.340 | Like I wasn't just a broker that was sitting out

00:18:13.740 | with everybody else and would periodically come in

00:18:16.100 | and ask questions, or would call underwriting,

00:18:19.540 | but really didn't understand what was happening,

00:18:21.340 | and exactly what the underwriting guidelines were.

00:18:24.180 | Now I was actually talking to the underwriters,

00:18:26.420 | and you're talking to the owners

00:18:29.300 | of the lending institutions, and the banks,

00:18:31.340 | and you're talking to all of the account executives.

00:18:33.700 | And now it wasn't just Eagle Lending I was talking to.

00:18:36.900 | There were 40 different account executives

00:18:39.980 | coming in on a weekly basis,

00:18:41.820 | trying to get us to sign up with their lender.

00:18:45.020 | And they're on the inside, telling you,

00:18:46.940 | coming in, showing you programs, and saying,

00:18:50.820 | look, if your borrower is self-employed,

00:18:55.540 | we don't ask for this or this.

00:18:57.540 | We just ask for them to say they're self-employed,

00:19:00.500 | like liar loans.

00:19:01.660 | You've heard the term liar loans?

00:19:03.260 | Okay.

00:19:04.820 | No-doc loans, where they don't ask for any documentation.

00:19:07.100 | If he's got over, let's say, a 700 credit score,

00:19:09.260 | and he says he's been a plumber, and he works for himself,

00:19:12.780 | then he's got over a 700 credit score.

00:19:15.020 | He just has to say he's worked for himself

00:19:16.460 | for over two years, and--

00:19:17.900 | - They don't ask any information.

00:19:18.740 | - They don't ask for any documentation.

00:19:20.340 | He's got the money in the bank.

00:19:21.420 | He's got a 700 credit score.

00:19:22.780 | Says he's been on the job for two years.

00:19:24.660 | He's self-employed.

00:19:25.700 | We're gonna raise his interest rate by 1%,

00:19:28.940 | and he's got, that's it.

00:19:30.700 | He's got the loan.

00:19:31.820 | But you start to know how things work,

00:19:36.700 | because I hired a bunch of brokers to work underneath me,

00:19:39.860 | and when they would get caught, I would get the phone call.

00:19:44.160 | So I get the phone call from the owner of a bank

00:19:47.980 | or a lending institute, a lender,

00:19:50.580 | and that lender says, hey, Matt, we got a problem.

00:19:53.820 | I'm like, what's up?

00:19:54.660 | He's like, listen, we caught a fake W-2.

00:19:57.460 | I'm like, what do you mean?

00:19:59.200 | Yeah, your broker, so-and-so, sent us a file,

00:20:03.080 | and this person had, there's two fake W-2s,

00:20:05.500 | and we're assuming the pay subs are fake.

00:20:07.420 | And I'm like, are you serious?

00:20:09.380 | How did you even catch that?

00:20:11.100 | And they go, oh, well, here's what we did.

00:20:13.380 | We checked with sunbiz.com, you know, sunbiz.gov,

00:20:18.380 | which is the Secretary of State's website

00:20:21.100 | that registers corporations,

00:20:22.700 | and we checked, and the tax ID number didn't match.

00:20:25.820 | And now I know every W-2 has to have a matching tax ID number

00:20:30.820 | for whatever corporation issued it.

00:20:34.340 | - So there's a sequence of checks they do

00:20:35.920 | to detect fraud on different documents, like W-2s.

00:20:38.740 | - Right.

00:20:39.580 | - And then you're slowly learning.

00:20:40.860 | - Slowly, yeah, exactly.

00:20:41.900 | - What's the process for detecting fraud?

00:20:43.180 | - I mean, I had a pretty good understanding anyway.

00:20:45.460 | - Yeah.

00:20:46.300 | - But so I'm starting to learn that.

00:20:47.140 | - It's common sense understanding, yeah.

00:20:48.300 | - So I'm putting these things together,

00:20:50.220 | and I remember one time I had a woman come in,

00:20:53.620 | and she came in, and she had perfect credit.

00:20:57.500 | She had like 750 credit scores.

00:20:59.560 | I mean, it was perfect.

00:21:00.400 | And she came in, and one of the brokers came in and said,

00:21:04.240 | "Hey, man, can I show you something?"

00:21:05.700 | I was like, "Yeah, what's up?"

00:21:06.780 | He goes, "Look," he said, "I've got this woman's W-2s here."

00:21:10.740 | I said, "Okay."

00:21:11.580 | I looked at him, and he goes, "Here's your credit report."

00:21:14.660 | And he goes, "Here's the application.

00:21:16.500 | "This is the social security number."

00:21:19.580 | I went, "All right."

00:21:21.060 | And he said, "This is the social security number

00:21:22.700 | "on the W-2."

00:21:24.460 | And I went, "Okay."

00:21:25.780 | Keep in mind, you go to get a car loan or credit card,

00:21:27.900 | they never ask for these things.

00:21:29.780 | So, and he was like, I'm really shocked he even noticed it.

00:21:32.740 | I probably might not have even caught it,

00:21:34.620 | but they were different.

00:21:36.380 | And I went, "Really?"

00:21:37.560 | And he goes, "Yeah."

00:21:38.400 | He said, "So I did, you know, she just brought them in.

00:21:41.180 | "You know, she's here."

00:21:42.860 | And I was like, "Oh, bring her in here."

00:21:44.620 | So she came in, sat down, I said,

00:21:45.760 | "Listen, here's what we just found."

00:21:47.780 | And she was like, "Oh, okay, you know what?

00:21:49.080 | "I don't want the loan."

00:21:49.940 | I just, I go, "No, no, no, no."

00:21:51.020 | I said, "Listen, you're getting the loan.

00:21:52.480 | "You got a 750 credit score.

00:21:53.680 | "Like, I don't care what we have to do.

00:21:54.820 | "We're getting you the loan.

00:21:55.680 | "I just wanna know what's going on.

00:21:58.240 | "How did you get 750 credit scores

00:22:01.940 | "under this social security number

00:22:03.400 | "when clearly this is your real social security number?

00:22:05.600 | "You've been working for this company for 10 years.

00:22:07.900 | "And your credit profile says it's only like three years old."

00:22:12.260 | And I was like, "What happened?"

00:22:13.260 | And what she told me she did was she went through a divorce.

00:22:18.540 | She had been married for 10 years,

00:22:21.600 | used her husband's, I mean, his surname for 10 years.

00:22:26.000 | So she has no credit under her maiden name.

00:22:29.680 | But when they got divorced, she switched to her maiden name

00:22:32.600 | because when she pulled, tried to get anything

00:22:35.960 | in her husband's surname, it was denied, bad credit.

00:22:40.960 | So he had bad credit, their credit went bad.

00:22:44.200 | So he switched to her, she switched to her name.

00:22:48.740 | And a friend told her if she needed to get her electric

00:22:51.380 | or anything turned on, she could use her name

00:22:54.580 | and use her daughter's or son's social security number,

00:22:58.540 | which was like a four-year-old kid.

00:23:00.620 | So she used that and it went through.

00:23:02.740 | She had to put a deposit down,

00:23:03.740 | but it went through at least, wasn't denied.

00:23:06.820 | So that went through.

00:23:07.940 | Then she went and she applied for an apartment with that.

00:23:10.880 | Sure enough, it went through.

00:23:13.420 | She had no credit, but they said you don't have bad credit.

00:23:17.220 | So she said once she moved into the apartment,

00:23:18.980 | she then started getting these pre-approved credit cards.

00:23:22.180 | So she goes, but I knew I had applied there

00:23:24.900 | using my son's social security number, let's say.

00:23:27.960 | So she started filling those out.

00:23:30.100 | And sure enough, she got a credit card.

00:23:31.740 | And then she got two.

00:23:33.020 | And then she got a pre-approval from Ford Motor Credit.

00:23:35.560 | She went and got herself a new car, got approved.

00:23:38.100 | She'd been making the payments ever since.

00:23:40.260 | She has 750 credit scores.

00:23:41.580 | She thought she'd try her hand at buying a house

00:23:43.320 | in his name, in his social security number.

00:23:45.780 | And we caught it and she got a house in that name.

00:23:50.380 | We closed it.

00:23:51.300 | I just was like, wow, this is great.

00:23:53.660 | - Can I ask you a question about that?

00:23:55.020 | Because it seems like she's able to pay for everything.

00:23:58.820 | - Right.

00:23:59.940 | - So while this is highly illegal, is it unethical?

00:24:04.940 | Is it like, it's unethical in that it's messing

00:24:10.080 | with the system on which a lot of people rely.

00:24:13.300 | But it feels like there's some aspect of the system

00:24:16.220 | that's broken in that it doesn't give people

00:24:18.340 | like her a second chance.

00:24:19.820 | - She could have claimed bankruptcy.

00:24:21.900 | And then two years later, listen,

00:24:23.300 | two years out of bankruptcy, you can go into Bank of America

00:24:26.660 | and get a conventional mortgage.

00:24:28.380 | Assuming you have perfect credit outside the bankruptcy,

00:24:31.420 | you have the down payment, you make enough money.

00:24:34.020 | There's a whole bunch of, you know,

00:24:35.660 | a bunch of underwriting guidelines you have to meet.

00:24:38.420 | But that's possible.

00:24:39.980 | But you're right.

00:24:40.860 | For instance, she wasn't getting an apartment

00:24:43.140 | using with her bad credit.

00:24:44.460 | She wasn't getting her utilities turned on.

00:24:46.820 | She wasn't getting any of those things done.

00:24:48.340 | - So getting your life back on track is just harder.

00:24:50.340 | - It's extremely hard.

00:24:51.420 | - So there's a temptation to take the shortcut,

00:24:53.460 | and the shortcut is often going to be illegal.

00:24:56.680 | - Right, and she stumbled into it.

00:24:58.820 | But she basically explained it to me.

00:25:02.600 | And I mean, I don't think she had walked out

00:25:04.900 | of my brokerage office before I went,

00:25:07.900 | and I just started making up, you know, names.

00:25:09.660 | And I think I went, I went into our file cabinet

00:25:13.100 | and grabbed some people's 1040s,

00:25:16.900 | which we had, you know, their tax returns,

00:25:20.220 | and looked up children's social security numbers,

00:25:23.140 | and just grabbed some random kids' social security numbers

00:25:26.020 | and their name, and went and pulled them.

00:25:28.300 | But I changed their date of birth to be an adult.

00:25:30.980 | Pulled it, and sure enough, it came up, no file found.

00:25:33.860 | You know, it didn't say fraud alert or fraud or anything.

00:25:35.940 | It didn't say mismatched this, mismatched that.

00:25:38.260 | It didn't say anything.

00:25:39.100 | It just said, you know, no file found.

00:25:41.620 | Well, then we went and we pulled,

00:25:45.540 | applied for a couple credit cards

00:25:47.780 | using a child's social security number.

00:25:50.740 | And then we went and pulled our own credit report,

00:25:52.620 | and sure enough, it didn't say no file found.

00:25:56.040 | It just said that there had been two inquiries

00:25:58.820 | applying for credit cards.

00:26:00.740 | So I was like, wow, like that's a credit profile.

00:26:03.840 | So that turns into me going to social security,

00:26:10.940 | and calling social security,

00:26:15.020 | and trying to get them to issue me social security numbers

00:26:19.020 | to adults that had never had a social security number

00:26:22.020 | issued to them.

00:26:23.380 | I need to get social security number

00:26:24.860 | to give me a clean social security number.

00:26:27.820 | But I called up, and of course, you know, I'm a novice.

00:26:29.980 | I don't really know what I'm doing.

00:26:30.820 | So I call up and I say, hey, yeah,

00:26:33.100 | I never had a social security number issued.

00:26:36.660 | And they were like, how old are you?

00:26:37.500 | And I was like, I'm 31 years old, you know?

00:26:40.420 | And they were, yeah, that's not possible.

00:26:42.140 | Do you have a driver's license?

00:26:43.500 | Yeah.

00:26:44.980 | You have a bank account?

00:26:45.820 | Yeah, you have a social security number.

00:26:48.260 | Bring your driver's license in, and we'll pull it up.

00:26:50.660 | Okay, well, that's not gonna happen.

00:26:51.620 | Hang up, call back.

00:26:53.660 | Hi, my son is seven years old, or three years old,

00:26:58.660 | and he never had a social security number issued.

00:27:03.860 | Oh, okay, was he born in a hospital?

00:27:05.860 | Yes, well, he has one, he has one.

00:27:07.780 | Go ahead and get your son, come in here.

00:27:11.700 | No, I'm not doing that.

00:27:12.900 | Hang up, call back.

00:27:14.180 | So I called back probably 10 times.

00:27:17.600 | And eventually, someone said, I kept altering it.

00:27:23.460 | Kept altering what I was saying,

00:27:26.460 | until I got to the point where I was saying,

00:27:29.300 | my son was born with a midwife, not in a hospital,

00:27:35.140 | and the pediatrician told us that we needed to go,

00:27:40.060 | we need to get social security

00:27:41.380 | to issue a social security number.

00:27:43.660 | And they would say, well, he should have issued it,

00:27:46.060 | but that does happen sometimes.

00:27:48.420 | So bring your son in, and we'll,

00:27:52.900 | you know, you can fill out the paperwork,

00:27:54.020 | we'll have one issued.

00:27:55.340 | You know, first we'll check to see he never had one issued,

00:27:57.580 | and if he hasn't, we'll issue one.

00:27:59.100 | And so then it turned into, my son is out of the country,

00:28:02.580 | and I need this.

00:28:04.100 | And then that turned into, oh, I'm sorry.

00:28:06.580 | Well, how old is he?

00:28:07.420 | I was like, you know, he's three.

00:28:09.740 | And they go, well, I'm sorry,

00:28:10.900 | if he's over the age of 12 months old, he has to come in.

00:28:14.540 | Hang up the phone, call back.

00:28:15.700 | My son is 10 months old, he's out of the country,

00:28:19.500 | born with a midwife, never had a social security number.

00:28:22.740 | And then they go, oh, okay, that's fine.

00:28:24.700 | Just get his birth certificate and his shot record,

00:28:28.660 | and you can come in, fill out the paperwork,

00:28:30.940 | we'll issue you a social security number.

00:28:33.440 | And that's what I did.

00:28:34.500 | So I figured out how to create a birth certificate.

00:28:38.680 | You know, I ordered the security paper,

00:28:41.020 | you know, where you make a copy,

00:28:43.340 | it says, you know, void if copied.

00:28:44.940 | So I had to order a bunch of that,

00:28:47.100 | and I went online and figured out

00:28:48.420 | how to make a fake birth certificate.

00:28:50.660 | It was great too, 'cause like the county,

00:28:54.060 | actually, they give you a blank form,

00:28:56.660 | and then they actually show you

00:28:58.060 | what it looks like filled out,

00:28:59.700 | like a handwritten one filled out.

00:29:01.520 | So I knew if he was born this day,

00:29:03.340 | he got these shots.

00:29:05.180 | Two months later, he got these shots.

00:29:06.780 | Six months later, he got these shots.

00:29:08.300 | So I just filled it out.

00:29:10.060 | I even had to order a seal.

00:29:13.540 | So you have to have a seal that says like,

00:29:16.380 | Hillsborough County vital statistics,

00:29:18.360 | or Richland County vital statistics or something.

00:29:21.460 | And I couldn't get anybody to make that.

00:29:23.420 | So I changed it to like Richland County

00:29:27.060 | Office of Virtual Records.

00:29:30.780 | And then I took like 220 grit sandpaper

00:29:34.100 | and hit it over and over and over again to wear it down.

00:29:37.940 | And then I did the embossment on the corner,

00:29:42.360 | and I printed it on the security paper, embossed it.

00:29:45.340 | Nobody looks at those things.

00:29:47.020 | You could see Richland County.

00:29:48.740 | You know, you could kind of see that.

00:29:50.060 | And really, they just grab it and they go like this.

00:29:51.700 | This is what you realize after you,

00:29:53.220 | when I started getting driver's licenses

00:29:57.220 | issued by the state DMV, right?

00:30:00.760 | The state, I figured out eventually it was easier

00:30:03.820 | to just go into the DMV and have them give me

00:30:06.060 | a driver's license than actually make one.

00:30:08.740 | So, but you notice they would just grab the thing.

00:30:11.980 | They feel the form and go, okay.

00:30:14.100 | Like they don't even look at it.

00:30:16.060 | So, which is upsetting.

00:30:17.260 | If you put as much work into these documents as I am

00:30:19.380 | for them to go, okay, yeah, that's good.

00:30:20.900 | Sit over there.

00:30:21.740 | I felt like going like, hey bro, like take a look at this.

00:30:24.540 | This is artwork.

00:30:25.660 | - Yeah, but they're looking for the low hanging fruit

00:30:29.340 | of crappy fraud.

00:30:31.240 | - Right, yeah, this stuff was right there, so.

00:30:33.640 | - Okay, so birth certificate gets you

00:30:37.080 | a social security number.

00:30:39.120 | So, it's interesting 'cause you've also,

00:30:43.000 | you've done a lot of different approaches

00:30:44.960 | to creating synthetic people.

00:30:49.520 | There's homeless people involved.

00:30:50.880 | So, sometimes it's grounded in real people or real names.

00:30:54.360 | And then you're, like some part is fake,

00:30:57.760 | some part is real sometimes, and sometimes

00:30:59.420 | it's completely all fake.

00:31:00.880 | - Right, 'cause now I have the name.

00:31:02.600 | I have the social security numbering.

00:31:04.060 | What's great is they mail you.

00:31:05.760 | What's even better is you get,

00:31:06.900 | then you get to pick whatever name you want.

00:31:09.100 | You know, 'cause when you pick your child's name,

00:31:12.140 | he doesn't even have to have your last name.

00:31:14.300 | You pick any name.

00:31:15.140 | So, I would pick a name and I'd just say,

00:31:16.780 | oh, my wife's last name is this, if they questioned it,

00:31:19.660 | which they never did.

00:31:21.020 | But, you know, I've got a social security number,

00:31:23.680 | and then I would go apply for credit cards.

00:31:26.380 | And I'd get denied, of course,

00:31:27.900 | but they would all offer me a secured credit card.

00:31:31.020 | So, I'd then fill out the secured credit card,

00:31:33.820 | and I'd send the bank the money,

00:31:36.060 | and they would give me a secured credit card

00:31:37.620 | for $500, $300, 1,000, whatever it was.

00:31:41.680 | And then, once you start making the payments,

00:31:44.720 | I pulled the credit, and a credit profile shows up

00:31:47.540 | saying that this 31-year-old man

00:31:50.180 | with the social security number that I know was issued,

00:31:54.240 | you know, a couple months ago, has three credit cards.

00:31:57.920 | They don't even say secured.

00:31:58.920 | They just say, there's like, this credit card is $500.

00:32:01.600 | It was issued by Bank of America.

00:32:03.000 | This one was issued by Capital One.

00:32:05.120 | This one, so I've got three of them,

00:32:06.800 | but I had no credit scores.

00:32:08.440 | So, at that point, I kind of kicked back and waited.

00:32:13.100 | I just kept making payments.

00:32:14.720 | And I remember thinking to myself,

00:32:16.660 | I'll bet you that the credit bureaus

00:32:20.720 | don't generate credit scores for at least a year.

00:32:23.540 | And I was like, God, this is gonna be a year-long process.

00:32:26.200 | And while that was happening, I was starting other ones,

00:32:30.320 | 'cause I figured at least in a year,

00:32:31.560 | I'll have a bunch of these, we call them phantom borrowers,

00:32:36.200 | but now they call them synthetic identities.

00:32:39.120 | So, at least I would have these synthetic identities,

00:32:41.800 | and maybe I'd do something with them.

00:32:43.320 | But what happened was, at six months,

00:32:45.200 | I went and I randomly pulled the guy's credit,

00:32:49.600 | the person's credit, and I had 705 credit scores.

00:32:53.660 | 705, 701, 695.

00:32:56.340 | I was like, oh my God, you only needed a 620

00:32:59.660 | to get a 95% loan from the bank.

00:33:03.700 | So, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.

00:33:08.540 | Sure enough, a month later,

00:33:09.700 | the other ones I had started, all of them, bam, bam, bam.

00:33:13.300 | - So, what do you do with a phantom borrower?

00:33:15.300 | Like, how do you make money on this?

00:33:17.640 | - So, I think most people,

00:33:21.140 | if you were just like a scammer or a fraudster,

00:33:23.860 | you would probably just get credit cards,

00:33:28.540 | and maybe build up that history,

00:33:30.660 | or maybe try and borrow a personal loan,

00:33:33.620 | which is limited.

00:33:35.100 | Personal loans are, used to be,

00:33:36.700 | used to be you could go to an FDIC insured bank,

00:33:41.860 | which borrows money, those personal loans they lend out.

00:33:47.380 | It's a max of $15,000.

00:33:50.040 | So, you could do that.

00:33:52.400 | - So, you can go through this whole process

00:33:53.640 | of creating a fake identity, getting a card,

00:33:55.720 | paying it off, building up credit,

00:33:57.160 | and then you get $15,000 at the end, or so.

00:33:59.320 | - Right, you get 15, maybe,

00:34:00.920 | if you wanna keep making the payments,

00:34:02.320 | if you could wait a year,

00:34:03.360 | you could probably get 15,000, maybe.

00:34:06.720 | You could maybe get 20, 30,000,

00:34:08.560 | and a bunch of little smaller ones.

00:34:10.080 | You get 7,500, 'cause I did,

00:34:12.080 | there was a $7,500 from Citibank,

00:34:14.720 | $5,500 from American General.

00:34:16.920 | So, you maybe get, what, 25,000,

00:34:20.040 | maybe 30,000 in personal loans.

00:34:22.280 | Maybe you can, you could then apply for,

00:34:25.900 | you could maybe get another 20 or 30,000

00:34:28.020 | in regular credit cards, 10,000 here, 8,000, 5,000.

00:34:32.340 | And then you go to the lower department store cards,

00:34:34.860 | and you go to Home Depot, you get 1,000, you get 500.

00:34:37.540 | So, it ends up being, maybe you can get 50, 60,000.

00:34:40.740 | Maybe if you're really good,

00:34:41.900 | you could get up to 80 or $100,000

00:34:44.380 | in credit cards and personal loans.

00:34:46.340 | If you really knew what you were doing, but--

00:34:49.140 | - Per person, per identity.

00:34:50.340 | - Per identity.

00:34:51.300 | But I had the ability to leverage that perfect,

00:34:56.300 | those perfect credit profiles against properties.

00:35:00.180 | And, I mean, ultimately, that's what I end up doing.

00:35:04.020 | And so, each one of those identities was worth,

00:35:06.560 | you know, a few million.

00:35:09.100 | - Can you explain how that works,

00:35:10.180 | so, to leverage them against property?

00:35:12.600 | So, how does that work with a mortgage?

00:35:14.140 | - So, what I did, eventually,

00:35:17.020 | I mean, this was, like, is down the road,

00:35:19.020 | but, you know, I mean, at this point,

00:35:21.780 | when things were just,

00:35:23.020 | my whole life had kinda gone off the rails,

00:35:25.520 | I was on federal probation.

00:35:27.740 | And so, what I did, decided what I was gonna do,

00:35:30.220 | was start running a scam, a much larger scam.

00:35:32.960 | And what I was going to do was,

00:35:35.920 | I was gonna start flipping properties, right?

00:35:38.980 | Like, buy houses cheap, fix 'em up, and sell 'em.

00:35:41.620 | There's an area of Tampa called Ybor City.

00:35:43.880 | So, I was gonna start flipping houses in Ybor City.

00:35:49.660 | And, you know, I thought, okay,

00:35:51.900 | I can buy these houses for,

00:35:54.540 | you could buy a really crappy house at that time,

00:35:56.600 | for 50, $60,000, let's say 50.

00:35:59.740 | And then, you could put $25,000 into it, in renovations.

00:36:03.580 | You could renovate it for 25.

00:36:04.820 | And maybe you could get an appraisal for 100.

00:36:09.380 | So, I thought, what I could do is,

00:36:13.260 | I can buy these houses,

00:36:18.260 | renovate them, and sell them to regular people.

00:36:21.940 | But I also had been working on the synthetic identities.

00:36:27.380 | And then I thought, well,

00:36:28.340 | or I could just sell 'em to synthetic identities.

00:36:30.940 | And then I wouldn't have to dump 25,000 into it, right?

00:36:33.780 | And these guys are perfect.

00:36:34.880 | They have perfect credit.

00:36:35.800 | I can provide W-2s and pay stubs,

00:36:37.620 | because by this point, I'm manufacturing businesses.

00:36:42.620 | So, I've incorporated businesses.

00:36:46.840 | I've got websites for the businesses, W-2s, pay stubs.

00:36:49.900 | So, these guys look perfect.

00:36:51.860 | So, I figure I'll buy these properties for 50,000,

00:36:55.340 | sell to these guys for 100.

00:36:56.720 | Maybe I'll pocket 40 or 50,000.

00:36:58.540 | I don't really have to do anything.

00:37:00.940 | But that seemed short-sighted.

00:37:02.720 | So, I thought what'd be even better

00:37:04.220 | is that if I did a little bit of renovations,

00:37:06.520 | and then I sold it for much higher.

00:37:08.620 | Maybe I put 10,000, clean up the outside of it,

00:37:11.140 | 'cause these guys don't care

00:37:11.980 | what the inside of the property looks like.

00:37:14.900 | They don't exist.

00:37:15.740 | But how am I gonna get an appraisal for $100,000?

00:37:20.900 | Well, do you know how appraisals work?

00:37:25.220 | Okay, so, the bank sends an appraiser out.

00:37:29.140 | Or at that time, you could provide an appraisal.

00:37:32.500 | They can review it.

00:37:34.000 | So, they'll do what's called a desktop review.

00:37:35.780 | They review it on the computer.

00:37:40.780 | They never go out to the property.

00:37:41.900 | Or they send someone out.

00:37:43.420 | They call that, it's like a field review.

00:37:45.840 | They send someone out, and they just look at the house.

00:37:48.420 | They don't go in it, though.

00:37:49.260 | So, I have to clean up the outside of the house.

00:37:52.260 | So, what I did was, but the problem is,

00:37:55.340 | if your house is, you're trying to sell that house

00:37:57.960 | for, let's say, 200,000, the other houses,

00:38:01.020 | they have to pick three comparable sales in the area

00:38:05.100 | that are also going to support a $200,000 sales price.

00:38:10.100 | Well, there's no other house that's selling

00:38:13.180 | for 200,000 near this house.

00:38:15.480 | So, I thought, if I wanna get these things appraised

00:38:18.340 | for 200,000, 250,000, I have to have comparable sales.

00:38:23.340 | And that appraisal's going to be reviewed.

00:38:26.220 | So, what I did was, I went out and I bought this house

00:38:32.780 | for 50,000, and I recorded the sale at 200,000.

00:38:37.780 | So, when you buy a house for $100,000,

00:38:43.140 | you pay $700 in dock stamps.

00:38:45.260 | But if you pay an extra 700 bucks,

00:38:48.860 | the sale shows up for 200,000.

00:38:50.960 | Well, I'm buying these things for 50, so I'm paying $350.

00:38:55.100 | And I'm just paying an extra $1,050.

00:39:01.180 | So, it ends up being $1,400, but the sale shows up

00:39:06.180 | at 200,000 on a house that's a crack house

00:39:08.960 | I bought for $50,000.

00:39:11.280 | Now, I go, I trim the trees, we mow the yard,

00:39:14.500 | we clean up the porch, we put the porch rail on maybe,

00:39:17.520 | we paint it real nice, we black out all the windows,

00:39:21.660 | you can't see inside, but from the curb, it looks great.

00:39:25.980 | And I get an appraisal, so I do that with that house,

00:39:28.960 | I do that with another house, all within a mile.

00:39:31.340 | So, I buy four houses, knowing I could use the all,

00:39:35.380 | there's a subject and three comparables for all of them.

00:39:38.060 | So, the first thing I did is I bought four houses

00:39:40.300 | for 50,000, 60,000, 40,000.

00:39:43.260 | And I recorded the values at 210, 200, 190.

00:39:48.260 | So, I get an appraiser to come out there, he appraises it.

00:39:53.380 | Of course, he says it's horrible,

00:39:54.500 | but there's comparables here.

00:39:56.020 | Now, of course, it is in bad shape,

00:39:57.460 | and he says it's in bad shape,

00:39:58.740 | but I go ahead and I correct all that.

00:40:01.580 | So, I correct it.

00:40:02.420 | So now, if you review the appraisal

00:40:04.980 | and you're in California,

00:40:07.460 | or even if you drive your car down,

00:40:10.140 | the appraiser comes to the house and looks at it

00:40:11.980 | from the street, it looks fine.

00:40:14.820 | But the truth is, I've got $60,000 into this property

00:40:17.940 | and you're appraising it for 200,000.

00:40:20.180 | So, the bank's ready, they're not gonna lend 200,

00:40:22.540 | but they'll lend 190.

00:40:25.040 | So, the bank is ready to lend this synthetic borrower

00:40:30.040 | $190,000 on a house that I have 60,000 in.

00:40:35.160 | So, I schedule a closing,

00:40:38.480 | and we close on the house,

00:40:42.840 | and I walk away with $60,000.

00:40:44.960 | And the thing is, the problem was,

00:40:49.840 | is by the time I got to this point,

00:40:51.840 | I knew so many people in the industry.

00:40:54.420 | Nobody had to really, at that point, show up,

00:40:56.360 | although I've had people show up

00:40:57.760 | for the synthetic identities and sign for them.

00:41:00.220 | Almost all the closings, nobody ever showed up.

00:41:02.880 | I just showed up to the title agency and said,

00:41:07.600 | "Hey, my borrower, he's at work right now.

00:41:10.080 | He can't make it.

00:41:11.320 | Can I just take the file and I'll have him sign

00:41:14.600 | all the documents at his work and I'll bring them back?"

00:41:17.640 | He's like an hour and a half away from here.

00:41:19.720 | I'll be back in two or three hours.

00:41:20.800 | They're like, "Oh, wow, man, Matt, thank you so much."

00:41:24.240 | And they would give it to me,

00:41:25.940 | and I'd go sit in the parking lot,

00:41:27.100 | and I'd sign all the documents,

00:41:28.300 | and I'd wait an hour or two,

00:41:29.900 | and I'd come back in and say, "Here you go."

00:41:32.580 | - How were you able to keep all this in your mind?

00:41:34.540 | Because you have to not slip up

00:41:35.980 | in any of these conversations.

00:41:37.760 | - It's pretty easy for me to keep them

00:41:42.500 | everything in the correct category.

00:41:47.260 | Does that make sense?

00:41:49.640 | I'm not great at a lot of things,

00:41:51.100 | but this I was very good at.

00:41:53.180 | - But there's these phantom people that exist,

00:41:56.780 | and they were becoming real people in your mind,

00:42:01.060 | as in you're able to tell good stories

00:42:02.860 | with those people, right?

00:42:04.300 | 'Cause if you're talking to the appraiser,

00:42:06.780 | if you're talking to everybody involved.

00:42:09.940 | - Well, keep in mind, the appraiser

00:42:11.060 | almost never meets the borrower, never.

00:42:13.260 | Not even almost, like 99.99% of the time,

00:42:16.420 | they never meet him.

00:42:17.380 | - But you have to talk about them.

00:42:19.380 | - Yeah.

00:42:20.300 | - So I guess what I'm asking is you're able

00:42:22.260 | to converse fluently about these synthetic identities.

00:42:26.620 | - Yeah, they all had different jobs.

00:42:29.100 | They all had, all the jobs were basically,

00:42:31.520 | they were all on the job for five years.

00:42:33.100 | They were all, a lot of it was--

00:42:34.380 | - Sure, there's a template.

00:42:35.660 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:42:37.500 | But-- - Yeah, got it.

00:42:38.940 | - Listen, matter of fact, almost every one of them

00:42:40.980 | had the same birthdate, you know?

00:42:43.060 | So, because I, who knows?

00:42:46.940 | So, yeah, it wasn't difficult.

00:42:49.860 | And keep in mind, a lot of the brokers

00:42:51.900 | barely ever meet the borrower.

00:42:54.100 | They call in on the phone, but it didn't matter anyway,

00:42:56.020 | 'cause I'm walking in saying,

00:42:57.420 | I got a slam dunk deal for you.

00:42:59.620 | And they're like, oh, wow, Matt,

00:43:00.940 | you got the W-2s, the pay stubs,

00:43:02.460 | you've got all their rental history.

00:43:05.300 | You have everything done, it's perfect.

00:43:07.140 | Thank you so much.

00:43:08.420 | They're happy to do it.

00:43:09.660 | Hey, I print up the docs and I'll have them go sign it.

00:43:12.260 | Great, wow, thank you.

00:43:14.500 | You know, assuming they didn't already know about it,

00:43:16.620 | and almost everybody involved in this,

00:43:18.300 | by the time I was done, was involved.

00:43:20.100 | There was probably 15 or 20 people

00:43:22.020 | that all knew what was going on.

00:43:23.780 | - The full of it, they knew the full depth of it.

00:43:26.140 | - Yes, yeah, yeah.

00:43:28.580 | Maybe not 100% everything,

00:43:30.220 | but they definitely knew this is fraud.

00:43:32.460 | - And they were still going along with it.

00:43:34.500 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:43:35.900 | Keep in mind that even when, I'll give you an example.

00:43:42.860 | One of my, you know, let's say,

00:43:46.140 | and this happened with almost all of them,

00:43:48.260 | was he would buy five houses.

00:43:51.060 | So the guy bought, what happens,

00:43:53.500 | the basic design was I buy the houses,

00:43:57.300 | I record the values higher,

00:44:00.020 | and this person buys all five houses, refinances them.

00:44:05.980 | He ends up borrowing a little bit

00:44:08.220 | over a million dollars in his name.

00:44:11.300 | Then, of course, then I go and I get personal loans

00:44:15.900 | from several banks, I get credit cards,

00:44:18.420 | I run up all of his credit cards.

00:44:20.060 | By this point, I've got 10, $20,000 worth of credit cards

00:44:22.740 | in the guy's name.

00:44:23.580 | So the guys are all worth like a million, million and change.

00:44:27.300 | Well, once I stop paying,

00:44:30.540 | you start getting letters from the collection companies,

00:44:33.140 | right, from the banks, and then they sell them off.

00:44:34.940 | So after about three months, you're getting tons of letters.

00:44:37.820 | And what I would do is I would take my borrowers,

00:44:41.280 | name, I would go online and I would find,

00:44:44.980 | or I'd go in the newspaper, and I would find,

00:44:47.540 | I would find an article about, let's say,

00:44:50.180 | like a 12-car pileup.

00:44:52.700 | So there's a huge accident on I-4, it's very dangerous.

00:44:56.660 | So there's a 12-car pileup, and someone in the accident

00:45:00.500 | was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital.

00:45:04.500 | I would cut and paste that article,

00:45:08.940 | and I would just insert my borrower's name

00:45:12.360 | into the article saying that Brandon Green

00:45:15.500 | was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital.

00:45:17.440 | He's currently in critical condition.

00:45:19.180 | I would then print that article out on newsprint.

00:45:23.180 | I'd then make a copy of the, cut it up,

00:45:25.080 | make a copy of the newsprint, highlight his name,

00:45:27.360 | and I would write a letter

00:45:28.560 | from Brandon Green's fictional sister

00:45:33.080 | to the collection companies saying,

00:45:35.920 | several months ago, my brother was in

00:45:38.260 | a horrible car accident, he is currently,

00:45:41.300 | they've got the article, they have the highlighted name,

00:45:43.380 | he clearly was in this accident,

00:45:46.700 | he is currently in a coma, and the doctors say

00:45:49.180 | even if he wakes up from the coma, he will never work again.

00:45:53.160 | So you might as well just stop writing those letters

00:45:58.020 | and take the houses back.

00:45:59.180 | And that's all they're looking for is a reason.

00:46:02.680 | At this point, even if they look into Brandon Green,

00:46:06.420 | they can't figure out if he's a real person or not.

00:46:08.980 | Because he's got a social security number,

00:46:12.020 | he's got, and everything went bad at the same time.

00:46:14.700 | He's got multiple rental properties

00:46:16.980 | or his primary residence, all of his credit cards went bad,

00:46:20.220 | everything went bad, we have an excuse,

00:46:21.860 | we have a letter, that happens.

00:46:24.020 | People get divorced, they lose their job,

00:46:25.820 | they get in accidents, it's reasonable.

00:46:27.900 | - When they look into it, oh, it looks legitimate.

00:46:30.140 | - Even if they ordered another appraisal.

00:46:32.540 | By this point, it's not four comparable sales,

00:46:34.900 | or three or four comparable sales.

00:46:36.140 | By this point, it's like 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50,

00:46:39.680 | 'cause I kept making more and more of these guys.

00:46:43.060 | - What was your, just almost like a tangent,

00:46:45.460 | what's your thinking process?

00:46:47.420 | There's a lot of cleverness going on here.

00:46:49.540 | So like the car pileup is a solution.

00:46:53.380 | Newspaper, you mail it.

00:46:55.040 | Are you sitting there alone and thinking through this?

00:47:00.140 | Like how do you come up with that idea?

00:47:02.100 | It's a very interesting, a very clever, innovative idea.

00:47:05.420 | - So at first, I thought about making

00:47:08.300 | like a fake death certificate, that he died.

00:47:12.060 | But I thought, I don't know, like what if,

00:47:14.260 | like some of these places had like primary mortgage

00:47:19.260 | insurance, like what if the primary mortgage insurance,

00:47:21.460 | like what if they try and claim 'cause he was dead,

00:47:23.580 | or like I don't know, I don't know that side,

00:47:25.780 | so I'm like, ugh, I don't wanna do that.

00:47:28.060 | I wanna do something that's semi-verifiable

00:47:30.020 | and third party, it's like a third party telling you

00:47:32.140 | this is what happened.

00:47:32.980 | I thought, well, like the newspaper, you know?

00:47:36.140 | And, you know, or do I claim bankruptcy?

00:47:39.420 | And I've done that, I've gone and got the bankruptcy forms.

00:47:42.540 | Right, you can go to the bankruptcy court

00:47:44.200 | and they'll give you forms to mail to all of your creditors

00:47:47.980 | and you mail 'em, they stop contacting you,

00:47:49.860 | they wait to be located by, or notified

00:47:53.280 | by the bankruptcy court.

00:47:55.340 | But my fear there is, you know,

00:47:57.380 | nobody's ever gonna notify them.

00:47:58.860 | Like, I'm not going through bankruptcy

00:48:00.300 | for one of these guys.

00:48:01.740 | So it was like, this is a better bet

00:48:04.340 | than just writing a letter saying,

00:48:06.620 | I'm going through a divorce,

00:48:08.700 | my wife's keeping those houses, that's her problem.

00:48:10.980 | You know, you could, there's lots of things you could do,

00:48:12.420 | but to me this was, they're not gonna try and,

00:48:14.700 | how do you shut it down without him dying?

00:48:18.540 | How do you shut that down?

00:48:19.700 | This is how you shut it down.

00:48:20.980 | He's in a coma, he'll never work again.

00:48:23.160 | He was in a car accident, here's the proof.

00:48:26.660 | He can't even write you, I'm his sister.

00:48:28.760 | I wrote you the letter.

00:48:29.740 | - It's a one-time letter that seems to tie up all--

00:48:32.940 | - Exactly, exactly.

00:48:34.920 | You know, I don't know exactly how that,

00:48:38.160 | you know, what sparked that as much as,

00:48:42.980 | there were so many other avenues that I could have gone

00:48:45.260 | that I was, I just didn't know.

00:48:46.100 | - But you were thinking through all those different avenues.

00:48:48.460 | - Yeah.

00:48:49.300 | - Are you mostly thinking alone?

00:48:51.100 | - I mean, you know, I had guys that I was bouncing--

00:48:53.500 | - Ideas from. - Ideas off of.

00:48:54.900 | There were other guys that were involved in the scam.

00:48:57.740 | You know, everybody, I think that scam ended up making,

00:49:01.200 | like, I think the FBI said,

00:49:03.980 | I think it was like 11 and a half million or something,

00:49:05.720 | and, you know, but there were so many other people

00:49:10.720 | that were involved in that scam that were, you know,

00:49:12.440 | this guy's getting 50, this guy's getting 20, you know,

00:49:15.120 | 17,000, 20,000, 25,000, and you know,

00:49:18.120 | we're just doing it constantly.

00:49:20.120 | And so the bank would foreclose on that property,

00:49:22.540 | they'd take it back, they'd put it back on the MLS,

00:49:27.020 | they'd put it back on the MLS for 200,000, it wouldn't sell.

00:49:31.160 | Then they'd drop it to, you know, 150, wouldn't sell.

00:49:33.520 | Then they'd drop it to 125, 130, wouldn't sell.

00:49:36.360 | They'd drop it to 90, and somebody'd buy it for like 90.

00:49:38.600 | It wasn't worth 90.

00:49:40.280 | But by that point, that whole area had,

00:49:42.480 | we'd done so many houses at that point,

00:49:45.320 | the whole area shot up.

00:49:47.360 | And the FBI said we did 109 houses.

00:49:50.520 | I don't think that's true.

00:49:51.800 | But we, when I end up leaving Tampa,

00:49:57.220 | after that scam falls apart and the FBI shows up,

00:50:00.340 | Forbes came out with an article, whatever, six months later,

00:50:03.660 | and they said that the Ybor City zip code

00:50:08.660 | was one of the top 20 fastest-growing,

00:50:13.500 | appraising areas in the country.

00:50:16.380 | And you know, everybody was like, oh, that's mad,

00:50:18.620 | 'cause this place is a dump.

00:50:19.740 | Like, this is a horrible place.

00:50:21.060 | Like, this is, and I remember one time,

00:50:23.200 | I had talked to a guy, you know, years later,

00:50:25.340 | and he was like, ah, all the comparable sales have dried up.

00:50:28.140 | Like, when you left, there was just nothing

00:50:30.380 | even close to 200,000.

00:50:32.140 | - You mentioned right before,

00:50:35.940 | telling the story of this elaborate scam,

00:50:37.840 | that you were on federal probation.

00:50:39.540 | How did that happen?

00:50:41.040 | - So I mentioned that I own the mortgage company, right?

00:50:43.940 | So I had started a mortgage company.

00:50:45.580 | I had maybe a dozen guys working for me.

00:50:48.260 | And there was fraud, you know?

00:50:50.620 | Like, I would say, it wasn't all fraud, but whatever.

00:50:53.660 | 60, 70% of it was fraud that was going in there.

00:50:57.260 | And from the outside of that business,

00:50:59.540 | it looked very legitimate.

00:51:01.140 | You know, we were an FHA-approved lender.

00:51:03.860 | We were a VA-approved lender.

00:51:05.380 | We did conventional.

00:51:07.220 | Probably signed up with 40 or 50 subprime lenders.

00:51:10.040 | But there was a considerable amount of fraud.

00:51:14.820 | And you know, it kept getting, you know,

00:51:18.620 | it became a game, right?

00:51:20.860 | You know, you start,

00:51:23.620 | I started getting just more and more creative.

00:51:25.380 | Like I said, every time I would get away with something,

00:51:27.340 | like you become emboldened by it.

00:51:28.940 | It's like, nice!

00:51:30.140 | You know, like, hey, the underwriter's looking for this,

00:51:32.220 | and looking for this, and you sit there and go,

00:51:34.540 | man, so that she's, you know, that's,

00:51:37.200 | what am I gonna do?

00:51:38.040 | You know what we could do?

00:51:39.020 | We could create our own bank.

00:51:41.940 | What?

00:51:42.760 | Yeah, here's what we're gonna do.

00:51:43.820 | We're gonna go on, like,

00:51:44.740 | how do they know if this bank exists?

00:51:46.200 | These people are in California, or they're in New York.

00:51:48.400 | Like, they don't know.

00:51:49.540 | So what we're gonna do is we're gonna go online,

00:51:53.820 | and keep in mind, this is 2000,

00:51:56.380 | you know, this is 2000, 2001.

00:51:58.700 | Like, this is, the internet's in its infancy still, right?

00:52:03.700 | So we figure out,

00:52:06.020 | I remember GoDaddy, I think,

00:52:07.820 | had just come up with a site

00:52:08.820 | where you could build your own website.

00:52:10.200 | Like, how cool is that?

00:52:11.160 | So I go online with a buddy of mine,

00:52:13.780 | and we create something called the Bank of Ebor.

00:52:17.100 | You know, we cut and pasted things

00:52:18.900 | that we like from other banks,

00:52:21.020 | and we got a 1-800 number you could call,

00:52:24.460 | or a 1-86 number, whatever it was,

00:52:26.100 | and you could call it, and it would go to a voicemail,

00:52:28.580 | and so we set up this bank,

00:52:29.500 | and then I ended up making bank statements,

00:52:31.480 | which, by this point,

00:52:32.620 | I already had been making bank statements

00:52:34.840 | to prove someone has their down payment.

00:52:38.020 | 'Cause a lot of times, people,

00:52:39.340 | they have good enough credit to borrow 95% or 90%,

00:52:42.940 | but they don't have their down payment.

00:52:44.580 | So we'd raise the purchase price high enough

00:52:47.420 | to cover their 5% or 10% down payment,

00:52:50.140 | and we would bring their down payment for them,

00:52:53.620 | or we'd have the owner of the house

00:52:57.100 | bring the down payment for them,

00:52:58.940 | and then we would have a check cut

00:53:01.380 | out of the closing statement

00:53:03.300 | to a construction company that I owned,

00:53:07.440 | and we'd get our money back.

00:53:08.820 | So they get into the house for 100% financing,

00:53:11.380 | or 110%, some of them turned into 130,

00:53:14.140 | we wanna pay off their car,

00:53:15.700 | give them an incentive to sign.

00:53:17.260 | They still don't have the money to buy it.

00:53:20.740 | So we're doing all kinds of insane things.

00:53:23.940 | Well, at some point,

00:53:25.580 | remember Gretchen Zayas, my old manager?

00:53:31.600 | - Yeah, the original.

00:53:33.100 | - Yes. - The OG.

00:53:34.340 | - She came and worked for me for a short period of time,

00:53:37.660 | and then she and her husband

00:53:40.380 | went and opened their own mortgage company,

00:53:43.760 | which you should have known

00:53:44.620 | it was gonna be fraudulent from the get-go,

00:53:46.580 | because it was called Creative Financing.

00:53:48.620 | Yeah, C-F-M, Creative Finance, no, Creative.

00:53:54.620 | - Creative was in the name.

00:53:55.540 | - Yeah, yeah, Creative was in the name.

00:53:57.500 | - Oh, boy.

00:53:58.740 | - So-- - It's really on the nose.

00:54:00.740 | - So she's doing very well,

00:54:04.520 | and we became very close, by the way.

00:54:07.480 | We'd go on vacation, went to Puerto Rico together.

00:54:12.660 | I got married at the time, I was married.

00:54:16.060 | Our kids play together.

00:54:17.940 | We babysit, we go to each other's parties.

00:54:20.180 | We're close, we're good friends.

00:54:22.000 | And she's got her own mortgage company.

00:54:23.980 | She calls me up periodically and asks me,

00:54:25.340 | "Hey, can you make a W-2?"

00:54:26.660 | Or, "Hey, can you make me a pay stub?"

00:54:27.980 | Sure, no problem, we're friends.

00:54:30.260 | That's what fraudulent friends do.

00:54:32.100 | So if I needed somebody to verify rent,

00:54:36.240 | or verify somebody's rental history or employment,

00:54:41.100 | she had cell phones, she would answer,

00:54:42.980 | that sort of thing for me.

00:54:45.100 | Well, what ends up happening is

00:54:48.100 | she gets in trouble.

00:54:54.100 | She starts doing fraudulent loans for some guys.

00:54:57.740 | And these guys are doing what's called a cashback scam.

00:55:04.740 | So they're getting a half a million dollar loan

00:55:10.400 | on a house that's worth $300,000.

00:55:15.400 | So they're buying the house for whatever, 600,000.

00:55:18.700 | It's really only worth 300, 350.

00:55:20.600 | But she happened to be in an area

00:55:23.140 | where she could get the appraisal jacked up.

00:55:25.460 | So they buy the house, they get two, $300,000 back.

00:55:30.460 | And it's a straw man scam, right?

00:55:34.780 | It's a cashback straw man scam.

00:55:36.340 | So it's a real person that's buying the house.

00:55:38.300 | He's got perfect credit.

00:55:39.360 | But he's willing to let, to ruin his credit

00:55:42.560 | to get a couple hundred thousand in his pocket.

00:55:44.740 | So he never has any intentions.

00:55:46.780 | So it's not a synthetic identity.

00:55:48.340 | It's not a stolen identity.

00:55:49.180 | It's a straw man.

00:55:50.100 | He's a fake, kind of a, not a fake person,

00:55:52.020 | but he's just a straw man.

00:55:52.860 | He's a stand-in.

00:55:53.780 | So he stands in, he signs the paperwork.

00:55:55.540 | He buys the house.

00:55:57.060 | They end up getting two, $300,000.

00:55:58.500 | Well, this guy buys like five houses.

00:56:00.660 | So it's a cut, two, $3 million.

00:56:02.860 | They've lost five, six, $700,000.

00:56:07.340 | And these guys never even make the first payment.

00:56:10.200 | They just let them go into foreclosure.

00:56:11.640 | So the bank immediately investigates

00:56:13.320 | and realizes this is fraud.

00:56:15.200 | So the FBI comes in, they grab Pete and Gretchen.

00:56:18.600 | She has to hire an attorney, of course.

00:56:20.920 | And she doesn't get thrown in jail or anything.

00:56:22.440 | They just come to their office

00:56:23.640 | and they tell them they're investigating them.

00:56:25.560 | They know what's going on and they wanna talk to,

00:56:27.520 | they're like, "Oh, look, we wanna talk to you

00:56:28.920 | "and you're going to be indicted."

00:56:30.720 | Okay, so she comes to me.

00:56:32.680 | Well, actually Pete came to me and said,

00:56:33.900 | "Look, man, can you refinance our house

00:56:35.240 | "and get a 75,000 out to pay our attorney?"

00:56:38.300 | I said, "No problem."

00:56:39.340 | Gretchen gives me W-2s, pay subs, fake.

00:56:44.520 | The whole thing's fake.

00:56:45.560 | I get her, I refinance.

00:56:46.720 | I get a second mortgage on our house, $75,000.

00:56:49.500 | They pay their attorney.

00:56:51.100 | Their attorney immediately says,

00:56:53.740 | "You need to wear a wire on this guy.

00:56:55.740 | "Like he just got you $75,000.

00:56:58.760 | "I don't know how you got $75,000."

00:57:00.960 | The attorney knows something's wrong

00:57:02.080 | 'cause the attorney's like, they just,

00:57:03.240 | your whole mortgage company was just shut down.

00:57:05.240 | There's no way you could borrow $75,000.

00:57:08.040 | So he's like, "This guy's doing fraudulent stuff."

00:57:10.140 | And she says, "Yes, of course he is."

00:57:11.560 | And he says, "You need to work with the FBI,

00:57:13.440 | "wear a wire against this guy."

00:57:15.080 | So she calls me one day and says,

00:57:17.920 | "Listen, I gotta talk to you.

00:57:18.760 | "The FBI is asking questions about you."

00:57:20.280 | And I go, "What?"

00:57:21.120 | And she goes, "Yeah."

00:57:22.200 | I was like, "Meet me at the pizza place down the street.

00:57:25.020 | "So don't come into my office."

00:57:26.640 | 'Cause everybody knows she's been indicted.

00:57:28.020 | Like everybody in her office quit when the FBI,

00:57:30.800 | the FBI shows up and gives you a business card

00:57:32.640 | and announces they're the FBI.

00:57:34.240 | Everybody quits.

00:57:36.000 | So I said, "Do not have, do not, don't, don't come here

00:57:40.200 | "'cause they already know, they're already concerned."

00:57:42.840 | So I go and I meet her and Pete

00:57:44.240 | and we sit down at the, at a restaurant,

00:57:46.560 | you know, a little pizzeria.

00:57:47.880 | And I sit down and she starts telling me

00:57:51.040 | that the FBI is asking questions about me.

00:57:52.760 | And I'm like, "Well, what are you talking about?

00:57:53.880 | "Like, what are they asking?"

00:57:54.720 | And she goes, "Look, they came in,

00:57:56.380 | "they took all our files."

00:57:58.200 | And like, I was like, "I don't know any of this."

00:57:59.800 | I'm like, "When did this happen?"

00:58:00.800 | She's like, "Yeah, they, a couple of weeks ago."

00:58:02.360 | And they, and they have some of your files.

00:58:05.920 | 'Cause I had closed several loans for my wife at the time.

00:58:10.920 | We were buying rental properties.

00:58:16.400 | My wife didn't have a job.

00:58:18.180 | So they're, it's all fraud.

00:58:19.480 | But I couldn't, I could not close those loans in,

00:58:24.200 | at my mortgage company because I own the property.

00:58:27.280 | So I'm selling those properties.

00:58:28.960 | I bought properties, renovated them

00:58:30.760 | and sold them to my wife

00:58:32.680 | to get around something called seasoning.

00:58:35.320 | Seasoning says you have to wait six months to a year

00:58:38.040 | to refinance at the market value.

00:58:40.440 | Otherwise, if you wanna refinance, that's fine,

00:58:42.280 | but you have to refinance at the price

00:58:43.560 | you purchased the property at.

00:58:45.100 | But I bought these properties for 80 or 100,000,

00:58:47.720 | renovated them, sold them for two, 300,000 to my wife,

00:58:50.960 | who got a very, didn't even get a big mortgage.

00:58:53.520 | We were just trying to kind of get around a guideline.

00:58:58.140 | So, but my wife was not working

00:59:01.520 | and I provided W-2s and pay stubs.

00:59:03.400 | So when she says all this, she says,

00:59:05.160 | "Yeah, they're looking at the loans you gave me

00:59:08.460 | "at your wife's loans."

00:59:10.320 | And I went, "Oh my God."

00:59:14.520 | I said, "Well, you didn't tell them

00:59:15.720 | "that the W-2s were fake, did you?

00:59:17.780 | "You didn't tell them the pay stubs were fake, did you?

00:59:20.240 | "You didn't tell them that the down payments were,

00:59:22.080 | "you didn't tell them that we were married, did you?"

00:59:24.460 | I mean, just absolutely buried myself.

00:59:27.600 | And as I'm telling her this,

00:59:29.620 | I was like, okay, I kind of caught myself

00:59:34.260 | and I went, "Okay, wait a minute, look.

00:59:36.300 | "Okay, here's what you're gonna tell them.

00:59:37.880 | "You're going to tell them you never met her.

00:59:41.380 | "She called on the phone."

00:59:42.600 | Like I start trying to devise a plan

00:59:44.220 | that will answer their questions

00:59:45.600 | without getting my wife in trouble or them in trouble.

00:59:49.200 | And if nobody cooperates, the whole thing should shut down.

00:59:52.640 | You know, it doesn't go anywhere.

00:59:53.680 | There's no way, there's nowhere for them to go.

00:59:55.560 | Everybody just kind of stonewalls them.

00:59:57.560 | So as I'm saying all this,

01:00:00.940 | Gretchen says, "Matt, we can't lie to the FBI."

01:00:04.620 | And I go, "What are you talking about?

01:00:05.460 | "You're already lying to the FBI.

01:00:06.720 | "I mean, you've been lying to the FBI.

01:00:09.200 | "I mean, I just refinanced your house."

01:00:10.640 | And before I can really say anything, Pete jumps up.

01:00:14.080 | Her husband stands up and he says,

01:00:15.660 | "We've never lied to the FBI.

01:00:17.320 | "We may not have told them everything,

01:00:18.780 | "but we've never lied."

01:00:21.260 | And I thought like, "Who are you talking to?"

01:00:26.060 | Like, I know that's not true.

01:00:27.380 | So you're not saying that for my benefit.

01:00:29.760 | So I was just, I kind of look at them and I'm like, "What?"

01:00:34.300 | And I remember looking down, and this may mean nothing,

01:00:38.100 | but both of their cell phones were right next to me, right?

01:00:42.200 | And I remember, they were probably just wearing wires,

01:00:45.420 | but I just remember thinking,

01:00:46.580 | "Those cell phones are microphones."

01:00:49.300 | They probably weren't.

01:00:50.300 | But I remember thinking, "Oh, wow."

01:00:52.580 | And I just, I looked at her and I went, "Wow."

01:00:55.680 | And I said, "Well, I hope you're gonna get

01:00:57.980 | "something for this."

01:00:59.620 | And she immediately starts crying.

01:01:01.540 | And she says, "Matt, I'm sorry.

01:01:03.620 | "I have a kid.

01:01:05.680 | "I can't go to jail."

01:01:07.420 | - You have kids at that point?

01:01:08.500 | - Yeah, like, "I have a kid.

01:01:09.840 | "Like, I have a kid."

01:01:11.180 | And I was like, "Wow, I, wow."

01:01:14.620 | - What have you learned about friendship from that?

01:01:16.460 | Like, loyalty?

01:01:18.060 | - Oh yeah, there's no, there's, that's a,

01:01:20.060 | that's, it's sweet.

01:01:21.380 | - That must've hurt.

01:01:22.340 | - It's cute.

01:01:23.340 | I mean, I love the idea of it.

01:01:25.660 | - You don't think that--

01:01:26.700 | - No, I'll tell you why.

01:01:28.500 | So, I go back to my, I go back to my office.

01:01:33.180 | I remember I told her, I said, "Tell the FBI agent

01:01:34.920 | "to call me on the phone.

01:01:35.800 | "Do not come in my office."

01:01:37.440 | So I go back.

01:01:38.280 | I'm still trying to figure out how to weather this, right?

01:01:39.920 | I go back, I sit down.

01:01:41.180 | Phone rings.

01:01:44.660 | My secretary comes in and says, "Hey, agent,"

01:01:47.540 | I'll never forget the guy's name,

01:01:48.540 | "Agent Scott Gale with the FBI."

01:01:50.980 | And I was like, "Okay, he's on the phone."

01:01:52.740 | And she's standing there.

01:01:53.580 | I was like, "Close the door.

01:01:54.940 | "Get out and close it."

01:01:55.900 | She's like.

01:01:56.740 | So, get on the phone.

01:02:00.580 | He asked me if I'll come down.

01:02:02.020 | I said, "Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:03.080 | "Let's schedule it for next Tuesday."

01:02:05.100 | You know, I put it off four or five days.

01:02:07.160 | I go to my brother-in-law immediately,

01:02:10.120 | who's a lawyer, and he says, "Oh yeah, yeah."

01:02:13.580 | I mean, I don't really tell him exactly what's going on,

01:02:15.140 | but I tell him this is what's happening, kind of,

01:02:17.260 | and I may be in trouble.

01:02:18.260 | I need a federal defense attorney.

01:02:21.460 | I don't even know what a federal defense,

01:02:22.580 | I don't even know the difference,

01:02:23.420 | but he said, "You need a federal defense attorney.

01:02:24.740 | "It's the FBI."

01:02:25.620 | So, we go on a couple, we meet a couple lawyers.

01:02:27.820 | I end up getting a lawyer.

01:02:29.420 | I give him like 75 grand.

01:02:31.140 | And he started to have me convinced,

01:02:36.780 | initially, he had me convinced

01:02:38.060 | I was probably gonna go to jail for a few years.

01:02:39.780 | But really, that's what they kind of do

01:02:41.900 | to justify you giving them $75,000.

01:02:46.100 | And then, but the more I thought about it and read,

01:02:50.500 | he gave me the guidelines that supposedly I had,

01:02:54.740 | the fraud that I had committed

01:02:58.540 | and the guidelines that oversaw that.

01:03:01.140 | And I read it, and I was like,

01:03:02.580 | "I'm not really in trouble here,

01:03:04.640 | "because I'm looking at a felony,

01:03:06.600 | "but I'm not gonna go to jail,

01:03:07.680 | "because there was no potential

01:03:09.380 | "for the bank to lose money."

01:03:14.280 | Because I bought the house with like a hard money loan,

01:03:17.880 | and then I renovated it with my own cash.

01:03:19.620 | And when I sold it, it appraised at 250,000.

01:03:23.160 | My ex-wife borrowed like 180.

01:03:28.120 | So, there's plenty of equity.

01:03:30.000 | If the whole thing had gone into foreclosure,

01:03:31.720 | they still would have got their money back.

01:03:33.080 | And to be honest, by the time all this happened,

01:03:35.600 | there was only like three of the three properties.

01:03:37.600 | It was like five, but we'd already sold a few.

01:03:39.280 | And at this point, we'd just sold another two.

01:03:41.400 | There's like one or two properties left.

01:03:43.480 | So, we're selling, at that moment, we were selling them.

01:03:45.960 | So, I was like, "No."

01:03:47.240 | I kind of argue with him, but then he wanted 75 grand.

01:03:49.480 | I gave him 75 grand.

01:03:50.520 | And then he comes back, and he says, "Good news.

01:03:52.860 | "There was no potential fraud.

01:03:54.760 | "So, I can get you three years."

01:03:56.900 | Now, here's the thing.

01:03:58.200 | Here's what I always kind of look back at.

01:04:00.360 | When I first went into his office, he said,

01:04:04.960 | he said, "Listen, you haven't been indicted yet.

01:04:09.660 | "I spoke with the FBI.

01:04:11.000 | "I spoke with the U.S. attorney.

01:04:13.640 | "They believe, and they've been told."

01:04:16.320 | And he said, "Look, they didn't tell me

01:04:17.920 | "exactly what they have, but they said

01:04:19.160 | "with the evidence that they have on you,

01:04:21.500 | "based on two confidential informants,

01:04:23.940 | "that you cannot go to trial."

01:04:28.560 | And I was like, "Right."

01:04:29.680 | Of course, I knew that.

01:04:30.680 | And I was like, "Okay."

01:04:31.680 | He said, "But," he said, "you haven't been indicted yet.

01:04:36.520 | "And they are fairly certain that you're running a mill,

01:04:41.200 | "right, a fraud mill over there,

01:04:43.060 | "and that you guys are churning out fraudulent loans.

01:04:45.880 | "Now, they can't come and raid your office

01:04:49.000 | "and do anything about it yet,

01:04:50.480 | "'cause so far, they only have you."

01:04:52.240 | But here's what I'm saying is that,

01:04:54.440 | he said, "I can keep you from being indicted."

01:04:56.760 | It's called pretrial, it's a pretrial intervention,

01:05:02.700 | where we go in, and what we'll do is,

01:05:06.520 | you go, you work, you go in, talk to the FBI.

01:05:10.600 | You go grab a bunch of your mortgage broker's

01:05:13.640 | most egregious files.

01:05:16.600 | Grab them, bring those files to the FBI,

01:05:20.680 | go work with the FBI, they will indict them,

01:05:25.160 | and you will not be indicted.

01:05:27.440 | And I said, which I kick myself to this day,

01:05:32.280 | I said, "Absolutely not.

01:05:34.700 | "I'm not gonna snitch on them.

01:05:36.720 | "I'm not gonna cooperate.

01:05:38.560 | "I'm not going to, you know, I'd seen the Godfather.

01:05:41.480 | "You're not supposed to cooperate.

01:05:42.920 | "You're supposed to be loyal.

01:05:44.620 | "I'm not gonna do any of that."

01:05:46.400 | And so I say all of this,

01:05:49.140 | where looking back, if I could go back in time,

01:05:54.660 | I would have gone into our weekly meeting with a dolly,

01:05:58.980 | and I would have walked in front of everybody

01:06:00.480 | and scooped up two or three of the file cabinets

01:06:02.720 | and put 'em in the back of a truck and said,

01:06:04.640 | "Listen, you guys are gonna be talking to the FBI soon.

01:06:07.120 | "I suggest you get attorneys."

01:06:08.320 | And I would have driven off.

01:06:10.700 | But I didn't.

01:06:12.000 | I thought, "No, be loyal, you know, don't do that."

01:06:17.000 | And what happened was when the other thing falls apart,

01:06:22.500 | right, when the next scam falls apart,

01:06:27.140 | every one of these people go to the FBI.

01:06:28.960 | Like, they're not even coming to them.

01:06:30.720 | These guys are going to the FBI with lawyers.

01:06:33.600 | I wanna cooperate.

01:06:34.560 | I wanna tell you what Cox did.

01:06:36.160 | I wanna help.

01:06:37.080 | I wanna, and I'm thinking like,

01:06:38.480 | I never had to get indicted to begin with.

01:06:41.160 | - So you think that most of these people,

01:06:43.220 | from your experience, are going to sacrifice all integrity.

01:06:48.120 | That's a funny word.

01:06:49.120 | Sacrifice.

01:06:49.960 | - I'm not sure that applies to this, but that's right.

01:06:53.160 | - They're going to sacrifice friendships and loyalty

01:06:58.160 | for just to save their own ass.

01:07:00.880 | - Yeah.

01:07:01.700 | I only had one person that did not talk to the FBI.

01:07:04.640 | I had one person that every time the FBI

01:07:07.400 | or the Secret Service went to that person's door,

01:07:10.200 | she said, "Don't come to my house again.

01:07:13.360 | "I don't have anything to say about Matt.

01:07:15.600 | "I have nothing to do with any of this.

01:07:17.300 | "Talk to my lawyer."

01:07:18.380 | And this happened over and over again.

01:07:20.520 | And that's my ex-wife.

01:07:22.120 | She's a gangster.

01:07:23.200 | - So are there people in this world you trusted

01:07:27.360 | or you still trust?

01:07:30.320 | - You know, the problem is eventually I cooperate.

01:07:35.320 | And at the time I didn't want to cooperate.

01:07:41.880 | I didn't believe in cooperation.

01:07:44.040 | But after seeing how many people cooperate

01:07:47.560 | and the way the system is set up,

01:07:50.160 | I think that my understanding of loyalty

01:07:53.720 | is vastly more realistic now.

01:07:58.720 | And I think that if you're committing crime,

01:08:03.560 | if you're, absolutely, like the things I did,

01:08:06.680 | I did a bunch of scumbag things.

01:08:08.680 | I mean, I'm not killing people,

01:08:10.920 | but I'm doing scumbag things.

01:08:12.920 | I'm lying, cheating, stealing.

01:08:15.400 | I'm a thief.

01:08:16.660 | You boil down to it, that's what I am.

01:08:19.120 | So you can't go around behaving like a scumbag,

01:08:23.040 | dealing with scumbags,

01:08:24.560 | and then expect those same scumbags

01:08:26.600 | to suddenly abide by some kind of a street code

01:08:31.560 | and not roll over on you.

01:08:33.720 | You know, and it does happen.

01:08:35.520 | But it's in the 90 percentile of people that cooperate.

01:08:40.520 | 90-something percent.

01:08:42.520 | And people cooperate

01:08:43.480 | when they're not even looking at any real time.

01:08:46.560 | So if you're looking at 30 years,

01:08:49.720 | and especially after going to prison,

01:08:51.680 | you go to prison and it's like,

01:08:53.800 | this guy's a stand-up guy over here.

01:08:56.080 | He got 30 years.

01:08:57.900 | He could have cooperated against all of his co-defendants,

01:09:00.800 | but he didn't.

01:09:01.640 | Nobody comes to see him.

01:09:04.800 | His wife divorced him.

01:09:06.180 | You know, his kids ended up in foster care.

01:09:09.360 | His friends are cleaning out his house.

01:09:14.360 | Nobody puts money on his books.

01:09:16.960 | Nobody comes to see him.

01:09:18.280 | Nobody answers his phone.

01:09:19.760 | Nothing.

01:09:20.600 | He took 30 years.

01:09:21.480 | Most of those guys turned around.

01:09:22.960 | They end up getting indicted for other things years later.

01:09:26.400 | They cooperate.

01:09:28.280 | And the best thing this guy's got going for him

01:09:31.040 | is that he can walk around and say,

01:09:32.920 | well, he's a stand-up guy.

01:09:34.400 | That guy's going to the same halfway house as me.

01:09:37.240 | He's gonna do 30 years where I'm gonna do 10.

01:09:39.760 | - Stand-up guy meaning he never snitched.

01:09:41.920 | - Right.

01:09:42.760 | - And so everybody's seeing this example

01:09:46.400 | and saying, well, I'm going to snitch then.

01:09:48.720 | But it sounds like what people are doing

01:09:51.600 | is they're signaling, virtue signaling,

01:09:54.360 | like they would never snitch and actually do secretly.

01:09:59.000 | - I mean, what is it?

01:10:00.360 | I remember I talked to one of the COs at the prison one time

01:10:05.360 | and he said, I said, shit, I said,

01:10:09.760 | 50% of the guys here snitched.

01:10:11.400 | He goes, it's more than that.

01:10:12.440 | He said, but listen, he was 100% of them are lying about it.

01:10:16.280 | He said, so there's nobody here

01:10:18.160 | that's gonna tell you they snitched.

01:10:19.600 | Nobody.

01:10:20.520 | So there's guys, tons of them that cooperate.

01:10:23.240 | If 80, 90% of defendants cooperate,

01:10:28.240 | you know, you start doing the math.

01:10:30.840 | And if you ask 10 guys in prison,

01:10:32.800 | all of them say, I didn't cooperate.

01:10:34.120 | I didn't cooperate.

01:10:34.960 | I didn't cooperate.

01:10:35.800 | Like, okay, well, you ask 100, I didn't cooperate.

01:10:36.960 | Nobody's gonna say I cooperated.

01:10:38.720 | - Does that break your heart a little bit,

01:10:41.640 | that people backstab each other like this?

01:10:44.080 | - It does, it does.

01:10:46.440 | But, you know, I have such a low opinion of people.

01:10:51.440 | You know what I'm saying?

01:10:53.120 | Like, I don't expect, it's not that I don't like people.

01:10:55.560 | It's that I just don't expect anything of them.

01:10:57.520 | You know, I don't expect you to look out for me.

01:11:00.920 | You know, there was a time when I did.

01:11:02.160 | I thought, I look out for you.

01:11:03.000 | You should look out for me.

01:11:03.840 | But I just don't expect that anymore.

01:11:06.120 | - See, but I think humanity flourishes

01:11:09.760 | because there is a lot of people out there

01:11:11.960 | that do the thing that is difficult to do

01:11:15.520 | in terms of integrity.

01:11:17.040 | - That may be, but these aren't people with integrity.

01:11:20.200 | These are criminals.

01:11:21.320 | If these were decent human beings,

01:11:24.080 | and all of them will tell you, well, why'd you do that?

01:11:25.680 | Oh, you know, I was a drug addict or I needed the money.

01:11:28.640 | Well, if you were a decent human being,

01:11:31.360 | you would have gotten off the drugs.

01:11:33.920 | You would have gone and gotten three jobs.

01:11:36.040 | You can work 80 hours a week.

01:11:37.240 | I've done it.

01:11:38.080 | You can work 84, 85, 80, you can work 90 hours a week.

01:11:40.840 | You can do that.

01:11:41.680 | Oh, I did it for my kids.

01:11:42.520 | No, you're lazy.

01:11:43.480 | You could have worked three jobs for your kids.

01:11:45.600 | Instead, you decided to sell methamphetamine.

01:11:49.200 | Well, I was addicted.

01:11:50.600 | You could have gotten off.

01:11:51.760 | It wasn't important.

01:11:52.640 | It was the easy way out.

01:11:54.400 | You're not someone with integrity.

01:11:56.200 | So for you to sit there and say,

01:11:57.240 | hey, I'm gonna act like a scumbag,

01:11:59.140 | but now I got caught or you got caught,

01:12:02.260 | and I don't want you to tell on me.

01:12:03.580 | Well, you're a guy that robs banks.

01:12:05.960 | You stick guns in people's faces.

01:12:07.520 | You kidnap people.

01:12:08.440 | You torture people.

01:12:09.700 | You sell drugs.

01:12:11.400 | You're not a moral, ethical person,

01:12:14.640 | but you want everybody else to hold up

01:12:17.320 | to some ethical code while you're robbing grandma.

01:12:21.300 | That's not right.

01:12:22.600 | So I get the whole Omarta code.

01:12:27.600 | And there was a time when I was delusional

01:12:32.600 | enough to believe that.

01:12:34.240 | But after you're going through it, no.

01:12:41.340 | And after going through it multiple times, no.

01:12:43.720 | - I have to really think about that.

01:12:47.480 | And I deeply appreciate your honesty on this.

01:12:50.120 | - Okay.

01:12:53.540 | - I think, I mean,

01:12:59.360 | there's all kinds of criminals in this world,

01:13:05.440 | and they all have all kinds of stories.

01:13:08.400 | And your story is one of,

01:13:10.780 | I don't know if it came from desperation,

01:13:14.860 | versus a love of this kind of game, right?

01:13:19.860 | Like it wasn't part of it an attraction

01:13:25.540 | to the creative aspect of this,

01:13:28.980 | of breaking the rules when nobody else can,

01:13:33.860 | and you figure out a way to do it?

01:13:36.920 | - I think initially it was, I needed the money.

01:13:41.920 | Like that's the first thing, you know?

01:13:44.480 | You say, oh, okay, well, and if you ask most guys,

01:13:46.640 | oh, well, man, I needed the money.

01:13:48.980 | You need the money.

01:13:50.320 | But, and then I definitely needed the money.

01:13:53.660 | But then you get $50,000 in your bank,

01:13:58.440 | and then you get 100, and then it's 200,

01:14:00.560 | and then it's half a million, and then it's a million,

01:14:02.220 | and what the hell are you still committing fraud for?

01:14:04.740 | You've got half a million or a million dollars in the bank,

01:14:08.040 | or worth of real estate,

01:14:09.900 | or you're making five, $10,000 a month

01:14:13.220 | just in rental income.

01:14:14.260 | Why are you still committing fraud?

01:14:16.420 | So it turned, I think it morphs into the creativity

01:14:21.420 | in part for me, and two, it was a chance for me

01:14:26.260 | to prove to everybody how smart I was, you know?

01:14:30.940 | I mean, it was done out of desperation initially,

01:14:34.380 | and then it just turned into pure narcissistic arrogance.

01:14:39.380 | Look at me, look at how I can do things

01:14:42.620 | that nobody else can do.

01:14:44.260 | Look how smart I am.

01:14:45.540 | I just walked into Bank of America,

01:14:47.060 | handed them seven documents that were all fraudulent,

01:14:50.420 | and they cut me a check for $250,000.

01:14:52.860 | Like, wow, I'm amazing, you know?

01:14:56.100 | And guess what?

01:14:57.160 | They're never gonna get their check,

01:14:58.820 | and they won't even know where to start

01:15:01.340 | to try and find the person

01:15:02.360 | because they're looking for a phantom.

01:15:04.240 | So, you know, and you feel great.

01:15:06.880 | I felt great.

01:15:07.780 | I used to, I felt like James Bond.

01:15:10.780 | I felt like 007.

01:15:12.220 | It was amazing, and you know, and it did it.

01:15:15.700 | It feeded my need to feel important, you know?

01:15:20.700 | Even if it was, even if that was a lie,

01:15:25.700 | 'cause all that success was just a lie.

01:15:27.860 | - Well, no, you were good at it.

01:15:31.500 | - It was good at it, but it was,

01:15:33.500 | it's not, it's not like I'm Elon Musk.

01:15:37.320 | You know what I'm saying?

01:15:38.420 | It's not like I'm an exceptional human,

01:15:40.600 | I'm an exceptional human being

01:15:42.560 | at a horrific thing, at committing fraud.

01:15:45.900 | - Well, the question is how many people are getting hurt

01:15:48.360 | because--

01:15:49.720 | - Initially, the thing is, initially, nobody got hurt.

01:15:53.560 | That's the thing.

01:15:54.880 | Nobody ever lost any money directly.

01:15:57.920 | Like, I didn't go and say, "Give me $50,000,"

01:16:00.280 | and I ran off with your money.

01:16:01.520 | Like, I wasn't doing that,

01:16:02.360 | and that was a great justification.

01:16:04.540 | But at some point, and we'll get into that,

01:16:07.480 | you know, I take off on the run,

01:16:09.120 | and people do lose money.

01:16:10.640 | I didn't take that money directly,

01:16:11.880 | and for some reason, in my, you know,

01:16:16.420 | sick mind or whatever the case may be,

01:16:20.240 | that seems like a distinction to me

01:16:22.280 | that makes me feel okay,

01:16:23.720 | is that I never said, "Give me $10,000,"

01:16:27.480 | and I ran off with it.

01:16:29.040 | But I put people in a position

01:16:31.600 | where I damaged the credit,

01:16:36.320 | or damaged the title to their house,

01:16:39.620 | and they had to go get a lawyer to fix that.

01:16:42.840 | You know, and so that,

01:16:46.080 | they had to go pay a lawyer $10,000.

01:16:47.800 | So, I absolutely caused that person,

01:16:50.480 | that I said, "To me, you're a victim,

01:16:52.920 | "and I owe you that money."

01:16:55.000 | And it was a shitty thing to do,

01:16:56.360 | because even at the time, I was like,

01:16:58.600 | "Oh, they'll make a couple phone calls.

01:16:59.780 | "It'll be fine."

01:17:00.880 | It wasn't fine.

01:17:01.720 | And if I had really put any thought into it at all,

01:17:03.280 | I would have known it's gonna really affect these people.

01:17:06.920 | And those people had done nothing wrong

01:17:10.280 | with the exception of trusting me.

01:17:14.520 | They rented me their house,

01:17:16.080 | or they owner-financed their house.

01:17:18.200 | They made the mistake of bumping into me,

01:17:20.560 | and now they owe $10,000, $20,000.

01:17:24.360 | You know, and I'm sure a ton of anguish.

01:17:28.200 | - So, what happened when you were caught that first time?

01:17:32.380 | - So, I was caught, and I got three years probation.

01:17:36.560 | You know, I took the probation.

01:17:39.480 | - What does that involve?

01:17:40.520 | - Initially, it was such a slap on the wrist.

01:17:45.520 | - Were you allowed to still practice?

01:17:47.400 | - No, well, okay, so I wasn't.

01:17:49.080 | I had to, I couldn't own the mortgage company anymore.

01:17:51.960 | That was a good question, 'cause you would think,

01:17:53.840 | you know, "Wouldn't it be great if I could keep on going?"

01:17:57.320 | But what they said was, you know,

01:17:58.360 | "You have to forfeit your brokerage,

01:18:01.920 | "your brokerage license and your brokerage business license."

01:18:05.800 | And what I did was I transferred

01:18:10.280 | my brokerage business license

01:18:11.520 | to a guy that essentially bought my business.

01:18:14.680 | They allowed me to work as a consultant

01:18:17.800 | in the mortgage industry.

01:18:19.760 | You know, 'cause they went, you know, they go,

01:18:22.000 | my lawyer goes to the judge and says,

01:18:23.740 | "What else can he do?"

01:18:25.560 | So, and so I have a friend, his name's Dave Walker.

01:18:30.560 | He was a CPA.

01:18:32.760 | He came in and he bought my business

01:18:35.760 | and he paid me like $9,000 a month.

01:18:38.720 | And that covered my bills.

01:18:40.760 | My wife and I got divorced.

01:18:42.760 | So she's my ex-wife.

01:18:44.720 | And I don't know what to do, right?

01:18:49.720 | Like I don't, I'm, I could, you know,

01:18:52.720 | and I would say, you know, I could have like,

01:18:54.400 | you know, you look back and it's like,

01:18:55.840 | I could have claimed bankruptcy.

01:18:57.400 | I could have moved into my parents' spare room,

01:19:00.120 | you know, something like that.

01:19:01.180 | But, you know, 'cause I had, I had,

01:19:03.760 | I lost everything in my divorce.

01:19:06.320 | I had huge child support payment.

01:19:09.480 | You know, not that that has anything to do

01:19:11.240 | like with my ex-wife.

01:19:13.280 | Like I absolutely signed up for that.

01:19:14.720 | Like I wanted to pay that.

01:19:16.020 | But it was, it was, it was a chunk of change, you know?

01:19:21.320 | So we're talking about a couple thousand dollars a month

01:19:23.880 | for, you know, for child support.

01:19:26.960 | She got all of the apartments that we had.

01:19:29.320 | We had about a million,

01:19:30.160 | million and a half dollars worth of apartments,

01:19:32.120 | which isn't a lot now,

01:19:33.700 | but that's probably a five or $6 million now.

01:19:36.160 | So she got all the apartments.

01:19:37.840 | So she got everything.

01:19:38.680 | So now I'm sitting here like I can't be a mortgage broker.

01:19:41.960 | I can get my $9,000,

01:19:43.920 | but I have to help this guy run this company,

01:19:45.920 | train people, do that sort of thing.

01:19:47.680 | So what I decided to do

01:19:48.680 | was I was gonna start flipping houses.

01:19:51.000 | - Legitimately or not?

01:19:53.280 | - Well, initially I thought about doing it legitimately,

01:19:57.440 | right?

01:19:58.280 | But at the same time,

01:19:59.180 | I was also in the middle of figuring out

01:20:02.240 | how to make these synthetic identities.

01:20:04.240 | So I'm making the payments every month, remember?

01:20:07.620 | Two months in, three months, no, no credit scores,

01:20:10.200 | no credit scores, no credit scores.

01:20:12.600 | And I'm also saying, I'm gonna go,

01:20:14.160 | I'm gonna start buying houses, renovate them, sell them.

01:20:17.200 | So the truth is we actually renovated

01:20:20.780 | probably one house completely.

01:20:23.200 | I remember it was on 26th Street.

01:20:24.560 | We renovated the house completely.

01:20:25.920 | - On the outside and the inside?

01:20:27.800 | - Yeah, outside, inside, it's done, it's good.

01:20:30.080 | - Okay, great.

01:20:31.240 | - Me and this guy, actually Dave,

01:20:33.120 | Dave Walker, the guy that bought my business.

01:20:35.160 | So we renovate it and it just so happens

01:20:37.240 | at the same time I go to pull credit one day

01:20:40.100 | and wow, 700 plus credit scores.

01:20:45.100 | And I went, we don't have to sell this thing at all.

01:20:49.280 | Like we just, I can sell it and put it in this guy's name

01:20:53.080 | and let him refinance it.

01:20:55.000 | And so that's what we did.

01:20:56.440 | I ended up selling it to this synthetic identity.

01:20:59.640 | - Do you remember the first synthetic identity, the name?

01:21:02.040 | - The first one was a Joel Colon.

01:21:04.860 | - Yeah.

01:21:05.700 | - And then I started getting creative

01:21:06.520 | because the ones after that I started naming.

01:21:09.680 | So I had like Joel Colon and an Alan Duncan.

01:21:12.640 | But then I, do you remember the movie Reservoir Dogs?

01:21:16.200 | So I started naming the characters

01:21:20.680 | after guys in the Reservoir Dogs.

01:21:22.320 | So I had a James Redd, I had like a Michael White,

01:21:27.320 | Lee Black, I had a William Blue,

01:21:31.520 | David Silver, Brandon Green.

01:21:35.080 | So then I start developing these guys.

01:21:37.520 | Now I thought, oh, forget those normal things.

01:21:40.320 | I'm going with these, with the Reservoir Dogs.

01:21:42.560 | And I thought it was so cute too.

01:21:44.000 | - You think in retrospect those are mistakes?

01:21:45.400 | - It was so stupid.

01:21:46.320 | That was just, there's so many things,

01:21:48.340 | so many mistakes I made.

01:21:49.460 | I mean, within the fraud there are mistakes I made,

01:21:53.240 | but you know, other than just the overall committing fraud.

01:21:56.000 | But it was just like, I thought it was so cute.

01:21:58.120 | And then, you know, you get in front of the judge

01:22:00.560 | and the judge is hearing about the Reservoir Dogs

01:22:02.720 | and Mr. Green and Mr. Black, Mr. White, Mr. This, Mr. That.

01:22:06.000 | And he's looking at me just like, you jackass.

01:22:09.960 | Like, and you know, what am I saying?

01:22:11.000 | I'm like, yeah, I thought that was cute.

01:22:13.560 | You know, but nothing's cute.

01:22:14.920 | So, you know, plus I'm making fake banks.

01:22:18.340 | - What's the purpose of the fake banks?

01:22:19.780 | - Well, sometimes you have to have your down payment

01:22:22.400 | in the bank, right?

01:22:23.720 | So they want three months worth of bank statements

01:22:26.920 | to see that, hey, he's got his $50,000 in the bank.

01:22:30.400 | And then the more properties you buy,

01:22:33.280 | they start to wanna see what's called reserves.

01:22:36.480 | They wanna make sure that you can pay

01:22:37.920 | all your mortgage payments.

01:22:39.700 | If this guy loses his job,

01:22:42.000 | can this guy maintain all these mortgage payments

01:22:44.560 | for the next six months?

01:22:45.720 | And so they do that and they think you're gonna go,

01:22:47.400 | you know, oh, no, he can't do it.

01:22:48.900 | They go, well, then we won't lend it.

01:22:50.280 | Well, when they do that to me, I go, of course I do.

01:22:52.560 | Of course he's got it.

01:22:53.800 | Let me send you over the bank statements.

01:22:56.620 | Oh, you wanna call the bank?

01:22:58.040 | Call 'em.

01:22:59.240 | - So there's a phone number, there's a website.

01:23:01.000 | - Yes, you can call.

01:23:02.520 | We'll get on there.

01:23:03.360 | I'll do the whole shh, you know, and hold on.

01:23:06.880 | Okay, what's the name again?

01:23:08.760 | Do you have the account number?

01:23:09.760 | Shh, hold on.

01:23:12.060 | You wait a little bit, you know, you come out.

01:23:14.240 | Oh, okay, I got it here.

01:23:15.120 | I can't tell you the exact amount right now,

01:23:16.960 | but what was his balance last month in the data?

01:23:20.880 | Oh, yep, that's it, exactly.

01:23:22.280 | Okay, thank you, click.

01:23:23.240 | - Would you do different voices or would you be--

01:23:25.200 | - No, I've done different voices

01:23:26.520 | or I just have somebody else do it.

01:23:27.920 | You know, Gretchen would have done it

01:23:29.120 | or one of the brokers, Susan would have done it,

01:23:32.720 | one of the brokers that worked for me

01:23:34.120 | or, you know, Kelly or Johnny Moon.

01:23:37.080 | I mean, I have so many guys and, you know,

01:23:38.480 | they just get on the phone and they do it

01:23:39.640 | 'cause they're all doing something fraud

01:23:41.680 | and we're all working together.

01:23:43.640 | So, hey, I need you to call this guy.

01:23:44.840 | I need you to call this guy and verify this

01:23:46.080 | and say, oh, I'm at the bank.

01:23:47.760 | Okay, I'm at the bank, okay, cool.

01:23:49.280 | And they call back and--

01:23:50.520 | - Does this feel like an organized system

01:23:52.280 | or was it more improv,

01:23:53.920 | just like dealing with the different situations?

01:23:56.000 | - The government would definitely say it was organized.

01:23:58.680 | I would say it was, you know, you're a bunch of,

01:24:01.680 | you're just a bunch of guys, you know, to,

01:24:03.920 | you know, you're joking around with everybody

01:24:06.560 | and you're helping each other

01:24:08.340 | and it's not like everybody's, you know,

01:24:09.680 | kicking up the tommy, you know, so.

01:24:12.360 | - So, and then all these new puzzles come up

01:24:14.460 | and you figure out ways to solve these puzzles.

01:24:15.920 | - You go in and you say, hey, I've got this loan.

01:24:19.840 | I need to get this loan

01:24:20.880 | and this guy's trying to buy this house

01:24:22.160 | and I need a loan that looks like this.

01:24:23.480 | Where can we go?

01:24:24.800 | And by the way, they cannot order a copy of his tax returns.

01:24:29.800 | So, you don't want to have to sign what's called a 4506.

01:24:33.100 | So, they're like, oh, okay, listen,

01:24:34.660 | so-and-so's got a program that, you know,

01:24:36.840 | and you go back and forth,

01:24:37.680 | but you have to have this much in reserves,

01:24:39.240 | but you got the bank, yeah, yeah, I got the bank,

01:24:40.960 | I could do that.

01:24:41.800 | You know, so you go in and you throw it out there

01:24:43.560 | to five or six guys

01:24:44.760 | and you're gonna come up with an answer.

01:24:46.500 | - So, you're on probation here, just to self-reflect.

01:24:50.880 | Did you start doing this while on probation

01:24:54.920 | because of the money or because it gave you meaning?

01:24:57.720 | - God, you know, I mean, a big part of that, the reason,

01:25:03.840 | is I did not want to move back in with my parents

01:25:08.360 | and I didn't want my father to see me struggling

01:25:11.800 | and I didn't want him to,

01:25:14.720 | it was, my success, he had no idea.

01:25:21.000 | My success had been the first time

01:25:23.280 | he'd ever really been proud of me.

01:25:25.920 | Does that make sense? - Your financial success?

01:25:27.180 | - Yes. - At which point,

01:25:28.200 | what was the first time you told him you did something

01:25:31.040 | and he was like, you could sense him being proud?

01:25:33.480 | - Oh, when I became a mortgage broker.

01:25:35.080 | When I became a mortgage broker

01:25:36.440 | and I went to work for the company,

01:25:37.800 | and we're talking about within a week,

01:25:39.840 | I got a client, three days later,

01:25:41.560 | I got a client, a week later, got a client,

01:25:43.600 | two days later, got a client,

01:25:44.560 | like I closed four loans my first month.

01:25:46.880 | And my dad was like, well,

01:25:48.920 | well, how much money are you gonna make?

01:25:50.720 | And I'm like, oh, I'm charging this much, this,

01:25:52.480 | I got a point on the back, I got this,

01:25:54.240 | boom, I'm thinking I'm gonna walk home after taxes,

01:25:57.560 | like 10, 11,000.

01:25:59.800 | Jesus, God Almighty, you know?

01:26:02.440 | Are you still, well, we'll see,

01:26:03.940 | don't start counting your chickens before that, you know?

01:26:06.720 | And then, you know, two, whatever, three weeks later,

01:26:10.660 | four weeks later, you know, boom, I got a check,

01:26:12.540 | it's like $9,000 or something.

01:26:15.040 | And then, you know, the next month, it's 12,

01:26:17.320 | and the next month, it's 16,

01:26:19.400 | and then they make me a manager, and you know, it just--

01:26:23.640 | - He didn't know any of it was illegitimate.

01:26:25.800 | - No, he thinks, he thinks, my son, he's brilliant.

01:26:29.960 | You know, he's great, he's wonderful.

01:26:31.800 | I had, you know, was certainly not proud of me

01:26:36.040 | prior to that, but you know, my dad was athletic,

01:26:39.920 | he was extremely bright, I mean, brilliant.

01:26:44.920 | And I was a kid who had to be put into special schools,

01:26:50.440 | who barely graduated high school,

01:26:53.320 | who ended up going to college

01:26:57.200 | and getting a degree in fine arts,

01:26:58.520 | because I was never gonna be able

01:26:59.440 | to get a degree in business.

01:27:01.240 | It wasn't gonna happen.

01:27:02.600 | So when I graduated college,

01:27:04.880 | I remember with the degree in fine arts,

01:27:07.120 | he said, "The best thing you could do with that

01:27:10.360 | "is maybe you could draw caricatures at Disney World."

01:27:14.760 | You know what I'm saying?

01:27:15.600 | Which wasn't a compliment by any,

01:27:16.440 | it wasn't like, "Hey, you could draw."

01:27:18.480 | So yeah, he, you know, and then I turned around

01:27:22.360 | and I tried to go to work for State Farm Insurance,

01:27:25.200 | which is who he worked for.

01:27:26.340 | He worked for them for like 40-something years.

01:27:28.600 | And I failed the aptitude test.

01:27:31.700 | So then I went and worked for another insurance company,

01:27:34.680 | and I was an insurance adjuster.

01:27:36.920 | But I couldn't keep up with the workload.

01:27:38.600 | And then I ended up working construction.

01:27:40.400 | I'm still barely paying my bills.

01:27:41.920 | You know, that's basically where my dad felt like,

01:27:44.240 | that's, you know, he was polite to me.

01:27:47.720 | You know, we were, you know, cordial.

01:27:50.400 | But yeah, I wasn't, I think he felt

01:27:53.520 | he deserved a better kid, so.

01:27:56.960 | - Well, when you started doing mortgages,

01:27:59.780 | that's when he was like-- - Of course, he was like--

01:28:01.840 | - This kid's got something.

01:28:03.240 | - I'm driving, I'm driving a new,

01:28:04.760 | I kinda just pulled in in a new car

01:28:06.720 | and I just bought a house that was, you know,

01:28:09.520 | four or five blocks away from his house,

01:28:12.000 | from where I grew up, from where he lived at that time.

01:28:15.460 | Six blocks away from where my sister's married

01:28:20.680 | to her lawyer husband.

01:28:22.580 | Like, I'm doing pretty good.

01:28:25.000 | And then within three months, we bought,

01:28:27.880 | you know, my new wife, we buy a quadplex,

01:28:32.880 | and then we're buying a triplex, and another quadplex,

01:28:35.080 | and a 10 unit, and a duplex, and another duplex,

01:28:37.520 | and a quadplex, and it's like,

01:28:38.960 | what the hell's going on, this guy is blowing up.

01:28:41.880 | He's going on vacation here, and vacation here,

01:28:44.680 | and you know, so he, you know,

01:28:47.480 | and so when the FBI comes in and they indict me

01:28:49.920 | and I take the three years probation,

01:28:51.480 | like, I mean, probably the worst thing in the world,

01:28:54.120 | you know, other than going to prison,

01:28:55.700 | would have been just having to just sell everything

01:28:58.840 | and go move in and start over and sell used cars.

01:29:01.700 | Not that there's anything wrong with selling used cars,

01:29:04.120 | but I just felt like, you know,

01:29:06.760 | I just didn't want to disappoint him

01:29:09.480 | any more than I already had.

01:29:11.200 | So I thought, I'm gonna flip houses

01:29:13.480 | and then I'll start maybe a development company,

01:29:15.240 | so I'll buy some vacant lots and all this and that.

01:29:17.640 | The problem is, these houses I'm buying for 50,000,

01:29:21.840 | if I fix them up and sell them, maybe I make 20, 25,000,

01:29:24.800 | and then you gotta find a qualified borrower.

01:29:28.320 | It's very hard to find a qualified borrower

01:29:31.480 | that wants to live in Ybor City.

01:29:33.480 | Back then, it's, I still think it's rough,

01:29:36.080 | but those same houses are going for three and 400,000.

01:29:39.200 | So, you know, I'm buying houses,

01:29:42.320 | I gotta get qualified borrowers,

01:29:44.360 | I have to do all the renovations.

01:29:46.960 | It's a nightmare, you know?

01:29:49.440 | And if I, you know, looking back, it's like,

01:29:52.600 | okay, well, then you gotta bite the bullet.

01:29:54.120 | It's just what you have to do.

01:29:55.320 | I didn't want to do that.

01:29:56.800 | I didn't want to do it, whether it was laziness

01:29:59.320 | or I don't know, you know, I just thought I'm good at this,

01:30:03.000 | I'm gonna run, I'm just gonna start running a scam.

01:30:06.040 | I'm gonna figure out how to drive the prices up,

01:30:09.200 | buy the houses for 50, record them at 200,000,

01:30:11.520 | and then have these synthetic identities,

01:30:13.160 | buy all the properties, refinance them,

01:30:16.720 | pull out the cash, make six months worth of payments,

01:30:19.160 | let them all go into foreclosure.

01:30:21.280 | And that really, really started working well, very well.

01:30:26.680 | I had one time where I had a guy, it was James Redd,

01:30:30.400 | the synthetic identity was James Redd,

01:30:32.120 | and he had bought two or three houses.

01:30:34.720 | And there was somebody at the office

01:30:37.040 | who was friends of somebody who knew the title company

01:30:40.800 | where we were closing the loans.

01:30:42.560 | And he called her, her name was Mary, and said,

01:30:46.200 | "Mary, this guy James Redd,

01:30:48.760 | "like Cox is doing something shady,

01:30:51.200 | "James Redd doesn't even exist."

01:30:53.840 | She goes and looks at the file, her last couple files,

01:30:57.940 | and she realizes, of course, obviously,

01:31:00.200 | like this guy never showed up.

01:31:01.840 | She remembers Cox picked up the files,

01:31:04.340 | like, and he's saying he doesn't exist.

01:31:06.520 | So she freaks out.

01:31:07.840 | She calls the mortgage broker, mortgage broker calls me,

01:31:10.760 | mortgage broker calls me up and says,

01:31:11.840 | "Listen, Mary said she's not closing the next loan

01:31:15.740 | "unless James Redd shows up."

01:31:17.340 | And I went, "Wow, that's a tough one."

01:31:22.240 | And she's like, "Okay, so what do you wanna do?

01:31:23.600 | "Do you wanna go to another title company?

01:31:25.760 | "We're supposed to close in like three days, two, three days."

01:31:28.760 | I said, "Well, I mean, he's gonna have to show up then."

01:31:30.240 | I said, "I'll figure it out, give me a couple days,

01:31:32.880 | "let me figure this out."

01:31:33.720 | And she's like, "Okay, well, I don't know

01:31:34.920 | "how that's gonna happen, he doesn't exist."

01:31:37.720 | Keep in mind, at this point, I don't need IDs.

01:31:40.680 | I don't need a real ID.

01:31:42.160 | I mean, I figured out how to kind of make a real ID, right?

01:31:45.320 | Like I could make one, I could take sandpaper

01:31:47.800 | and sand off the information on a regular ID,

01:31:50.240 | and then I would print the corrected information in reverse

01:31:55.240 | on a piece of transparency, and I would glue it over there.

01:31:59.680 | And you could still see the holograms and stuff.

01:32:01.560 | It actually worked pretty good.

01:32:03.240 | I don't know, a cop's not gonna,

01:32:05.120 | it's not gonna pass mustard with a cop,

01:32:06.780 | but somebody at the bank, like I was able to go in

01:32:08.920 | and I would open a bank account with it.

01:32:11.620 | Well, so one of the things I had done

01:32:16.080 | when I was closing these loans was I would go online

01:32:21.080 | and I would pick, you have to pick a photo of somebody,

01:32:26.120 | right, to put on the driver's license, right?

01:32:29.040 | So I'm not making a fake ID for all these guys

01:32:31.040 | 'cause I don't need a fake ID for all these guys,

01:32:32.640 | not with my picture on it, but I need a fake,

01:32:34.640 | I need a copy of an ID, but I need a picture.

01:32:39.080 | Where do I get the picture?

01:32:40.280 | So I go to Hillsborough County's arrest website,

01:32:44.640 | and I would find people that I knew that had been arrested.

01:32:47.640 | And so I found a guy named Eric Tamargo

01:32:53.540 | who had been arrested.

01:32:55.920 | He had like, I don't know what it was,

01:32:57.760 | the DUI or domestic violence, I forget what it was,

01:33:00.160 | but there was a picture of him.

01:33:01.960 | So I print out the picture, I cut it up,

01:33:03.820 | I paste it onto a driver's license,

01:33:07.700 | and I make a copy of it for James Redd.

01:33:11.160 | That's what I'd been giving the title people.

01:33:13.220 | When I would close, I'd sign all the documents

01:33:14.940 | and I'd leave them that copy

01:33:16.220 | so that it looked like they made a copy of it.

01:33:19.500 | And then they would notarize all the documents,

01:33:21.180 | even though they'd never seen this person,

01:33:22.460 | they have a copy of his driver's license,

01:33:23.720 | everything's signed, Cox said he signed it, it's good.

01:33:26.340 | Notarized, here's your check.

01:33:27.820 | So what I do is I think,

01:33:30.340 | let me see if I can get Eric to do this.

01:33:32.600 | I knew he'd been to prison before.

01:33:35.620 | So I call up Eric, and I remember one of my buddies,

01:33:39.100 | like, he's never gonna do this.

01:33:41.940 | And I was like, I think he will, I think he will.

01:33:44.960 | So that's how, and that's really that kind of like,

01:33:47.920 | you think, what do you think?

01:33:49.700 | Let me try, let me call him.

01:33:51.020 | I don't know, bro.

01:33:52.140 | Like, that's the kind of conversations you're having.

01:33:55.140 | But really looking back--

01:33:55.980 | - I would love to hear the opener few sentences

01:33:58.540 | that you have with him.

01:33:59.980 | - I got, I can tell you exactly what I said,

01:34:01.660 | 'cause it's burned in my mind.

01:34:03.300 | He comes in, so what Eric was doing at that time,

01:34:05.900 | he was actually working for us.

01:34:07.080 | He worked for somebody else,

01:34:07.920 | but periodically we'd buy a house and we'd call him up.

01:34:11.420 | We'd say, hey, can you, you and your boss,

01:34:14.340 | can you guys come over and trim the trees of this house?

01:34:16.740 | Trim all the trees, take all the crap in the yard,

01:34:19.200 | clean it up.

01:34:20.040 | They go, yeah, sure, no problem.

01:34:21.140 | 'Cause that's what he did,

01:34:21.980 | worked for like a handyman service.

01:34:23.280 | So they would come and they'd clean it up and they'd do that.

01:34:24.980 | So I say, can you come over?

01:34:25.940 | And he goes like, yeah.

01:34:26.780 | So he comes to the office, whatever, a few hours later,

01:34:28.900 | and he comes in the conference room.

01:34:31.380 | I said, hey, Eric, what's going on?

01:34:33.100 | And he says, hey, how's it going?

01:34:34.940 | I said, yeah, I said, listen, I said,

01:34:37.580 | I'm gonna tell you something.

01:34:39.100 | I need a favor.

01:34:39.920 | He's like, okay, cool.

01:34:40.820 | He's like, what is it?

01:34:42.500 | I said, you know all these houses

01:34:43.580 | we've been having you go and clean up?

01:34:46.500 | He's like, yeah, you painted that one house.

01:34:48.460 | You did this.

01:34:49.300 | Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

01:34:50.260 | Right, so here's what we've been doing.

01:34:51.460 | I've been buying these houses for $50,000,

01:34:53.860 | recording them for 200.

01:34:55.300 | And then I have these fake people buy them.

01:34:56.940 | And I explain, I just lay it out for him.

01:34:58.620 | And he's like, wow.

01:35:01.220 | That's, he's like, that's, fuck it, bro.

01:35:03.220 | That's ingenious, man.

01:35:04.300 | That's smart.

01:35:05.460 | Like, oh, I was like, okay.

01:35:07.940 | I said, yeah, I know, that's great.

01:35:08.980 | So here's the thing.

01:35:10.300 | I said, the title company who's been closing

01:35:12.780 | some of these loans, we have a closing in a couple days.

01:35:15.660 | She wants this guy, James Redd, to show up.

01:35:18.420 | And I need someone to show up as James Redd.

01:35:23.180 | And he goes, wow.

01:35:24.140 | He goes, who are you gonna get to do that?

01:35:26.660 | And I was just thinking, (laughs)

01:35:28.060 | just like, you're not understanding.

01:35:30.220 | I'm not confiding in you 'cause I need a friend, you know?

01:35:33.260 | So, and I looked at him, I said,

01:35:34.420 | oh, I was thinking you might do it.

01:35:35.700 | He was like, whoa, 'cause that's a big favor.

01:35:39.380 | I said, it is a big favor.

01:35:40.540 | I could be in a lot of trouble.

01:35:41.780 | And I said, I know.

01:35:42.620 | And he goes, well, wait a minute.

01:35:44.260 | He goes, I can't go.

01:35:46.820 | He said, you have to give these people a driver's license.

01:35:48.700 | You said the driver's license is you were using mugshots.

01:35:52.220 | She, you said she's closed a couple of these.

01:35:54.020 | She already, she's seen this guy's picture.

01:35:55.940 | And I go, she has seen his picture.

01:35:57.620 | I said, the thing is for James Redd,

01:35:59.520 | I pulled the mugshot offline of you

01:36:04.100 | when you were arrested a couple of years ago.

01:36:06.020 | And he jumps up and he goes, you motherfucker.

01:36:09.700 | And I go, oh, I said, Eric, I said,

01:36:11.580 | wait a minute, I said, hold on, hold on.

01:36:13.100 | I said, listen, I said, I only did that

01:36:14.660 | because I knew if it came down to this moment,

01:36:16.620 | you were the only person that I knew

01:36:18.500 | that could pull this off,

01:36:19.580 | that'd have the balls to walk in and do it.

01:36:22.100 | And he sat there and he went,

01:36:23.540 | yeah, you're right, you're right.

01:36:27.260 | And I mean, I couldn't believe he fell.

01:36:30.100 | Listen, this guy would beat the brakes off me.

01:36:32.900 | He was, he's like 5'10", 5'11".

01:36:36.300 | He's boxed, he's a big guy.

01:36:39.220 | So, it's like I've weathered that part of the storm.

01:36:42.140 | And he sat there and he goes, right, right.

01:36:43.420 | And he goes, well, I'm not doing it for free.

01:36:45.340 | I'm not doing it for nothing.

01:36:46.180 | I said, no, bro, of course not.

01:36:47.100 | I mean, what are you like, you're making a lot of money.

01:36:49.260 | I said, well, keep in mind,

01:36:50.100 | a lot of that money goes back in the property.

01:36:51.940 | It's not like we're walking away with,

01:36:53.840 | I think I said like tens of thousands,

01:36:56.100 | we're really walking away with hundreds of thousands.

01:36:58.140 | It's not like we're walking away with a bunch of money

01:36:59.900 | or we gotta buy more properties.

01:37:02.820 | We gotta keep it going, we gotta make the payments.

01:37:04.580 | No, I know, but still I could get in a lot of trouble.

01:37:06.260 | I said, I understand, bro.

01:37:07.700 | I go, well, what do you want?

01:37:09.660 | And I remember thinking,

01:37:10.620 | if he asked for more than like 10 or 15,000,

01:37:12.900 | like, I'll just, I'll do it myself.

01:37:14.860 | We'll just change title companies and we'll go

01:37:17.660 | and I'll do it myself.

01:37:19.340 | And he sat there and he went, I want $500.

01:37:24.340 | And I went, $500?

01:37:26.660 | Listen, I almost started laughing.

01:37:28.020 | I mean, I was like, I put my hand over my,

01:37:29.740 | I was like, $500?

01:37:31.660 | It's gonna take you 30 minutes.

01:37:34.860 | And he's like, I don't care, bro.

01:37:36.440 | I get in a lot of trouble.

01:37:37.280 | I was like, oh, well, yeah, I'm not paying you now.

01:37:38.860 | You gotta sign first.

01:37:40.420 | And he's like, oh, you know, I'll sign, I'll sign.

01:37:42.420 | I know you're good for it.

01:37:43.740 | Bro, he did it for 500 bucks.

01:37:45.660 | I made a fake ID for him.

01:37:47.060 | He goes in to the place, he signs James Redd.

01:37:50.900 | Comes out, what was funny about that was

01:37:55.180 | when we walked into the title company,

01:37:57.340 | we're sitting in the lobby and Mary comes walking out.

01:38:01.140 | She looks at me, she goes, Mr. Cox,

01:38:02.700 | I don't know why you're here.

01:38:03.980 | She goes, I told Kelly, that was the broker.

01:38:05.980 | She goes, I told the broker that I'm not closing the loan

01:38:10.580 | unless James Redd shows up.

01:38:13.220 | And Eric stands up on cue and he goes, I'm James Redd.

01:38:16.140 | And she was like, and she goes, hold on a second.

01:38:19.700 | She runs in the back, comes back with a file,

01:38:21.500 | opens it up, looks at the picture, and she's like,

01:38:23.940 | oh, I'm so sorry.

01:38:25.660 | Give me five minutes, I've got the file.

01:38:28.820 | Prints up the docs, he goes in, signs.

01:38:30.540 | And when we're there, she's passing out the checks.

01:38:34.220 | 5,000 here, 25,000 here, 35,000 here, 7,000 here, 6,000 here.

01:38:39.220 | So he sees all these checks and I'm like,

01:38:42.820 | oh, I got that, I know the construction company.

01:38:45.100 | No, no, no, I have that, I'll take care of that,

01:38:47.220 | I'll take care of that.

01:38:48.060 | So I get all the checks and I leave.

01:38:50.120 | We go sit in my Audi and he sits down and he's like,

01:38:53.200 | bro, that's a lot of money.

01:38:54.040 | A lot of that money goes back into the properties, Eric.

01:38:57.020 | And he's like, ah, still, bro.

01:38:59.060 | And I said, and I counted out 500 bucks.

01:39:02.860 | But listen, a week later, we had another closing.

01:39:05.900 | So he comes in, I said, hey, bro.

01:39:09.100 | He's like, hey, what's going on?

01:39:10.380 | And I said, I need you to do the James Red thing.

01:39:13.580 | He goes, yeah, I've been thinking about that.

01:39:16.140 | I did that way too cheap.

01:39:18.220 | I said, I get it, man.

01:39:19.940 | How much do you want, what do you want?

01:39:22.100 | And I'm thinking, if it's more than 10 or 15,

01:39:24.660 | I'll do it myself.

01:39:26.300 | And he sits there and he goes, I want $1,000.

01:39:29.860 | I go, $1,000, like, oh my God.

01:39:34.040 | So I gave him $1,000 and he did another one.

01:39:37.380 | But by that point, it was like five or six.

01:39:41.740 | We'd done five or six with that guy.

01:39:43.180 | And after five or six, plus the credit cards,

01:39:45.340 | plus all the other things,

01:39:47.460 | their credit scores start dropping.

01:39:49.740 | If it was 700, now it's down to like 600.

01:39:52.060 | And at 600, you couldn't really borrow enough

01:39:54.740 | to make it worth it.

01:39:55.700 | It's like, and I have other people in the wings waiting.

01:39:58.220 | So we would just, I'd go out and I'd run up

01:40:02.660 | the credit cards and pull all the money out of the banks

01:40:07.500 | and close the accounts and then stop paying.

01:40:09.820 | - And you said a lot of people knew.

01:40:12.300 | So he was one of the people that--

01:40:14.100 | - He was one of the people.

01:40:15.660 | - Why do you think nobody said anything?

01:40:18.100 | - Well, I mean, I think everybody was making money.

01:40:20.100 | The appraiser, at that time, I had an appraiser.

01:40:22.340 | Eventually, I ordered the appraisal software

01:40:24.820 | and I just start doing the appraisals myself.

01:40:26.540 | Like, why give this guy 500 bucks?

01:40:28.300 | - So you were doing the appraisal yourself.

01:40:31.300 | - Bro, I'm doing the appraisal.

01:40:32.140 | - How's that possible?

01:40:33.100 | How's that, is there a check against it?

01:40:35.860 | Is there a--

01:40:37.300 | - There is, it's just funny.

01:40:39.140 | Nobody ever questions that.

01:40:40.540 | You actually have to have a license

01:40:42.220 | to get the appraisal software.

01:40:44.460 | So I get an appraiser that we're working with.

01:40:47.860 | I get her license.

01:40:50.180 | And I create an email address as her.

01:40:55.180 | - So it was a synthetic appraiser.

01:40:59.860 | - Right, it was a real person.

01:41:01.340 | But I end up ordering the appraisal software

01:41:04.100 | by emailing, it was called Alamo, Alamo Appraisal Software.

01:41:09.100 | So I end up emailing them as her.

01:41:13.660 | And they go, well, we can't sell you the software

01:41:15.860 | unless we need a copy of your license.

01:41:17.620 | Boom, here's your license.

01:41:18.980 | So I send them the license,

01:41:21.780 | and then we paid for it with a credit card.

01:41:23.540 | You could go get like a Green Dot card.

01:41:25.340 | You go put 500 bucks on it, or 1,000.

01:41:27.500 | The software was like 1,500 bucks or something.

01:41:30.940 | So you could give them like back then,

01:41:32.220 | you know, it was a long time ago.

01:41:33.060 | So 1,500 bucks, they mail it to us,

01:41:35.780 | and now I've got the software.

01:41:37.380 | So now I can do the appraisals myself.

01:41:41.100 | - What stops you from appraising it,

01:41:43.180 | not for 200,000, but even more?

01:41:45.300 | - There's no comparable sales.

01:41:47.220 | So no matter what you sent to the bank,

01:41:49.340 | they're gonna look at it.

01:41:50.520 | Like they're gonna have, their in-house appraiser

01:41:53.100 | is going to do a desktop review.

01:41:55.860 | He's gonna go online, he's gonna check

01:41:57.420 | to make sure all of the comparable sales

01:42:01.660 | are sold for what you said they sold for,

01:42:04.420 | are the same square footage, were built,

01:42:06.260 | what the pictures look like, how far they are.

01:42:08.380 | He's gonna double check everything.

01:42:10.460 | But you know, he's some guy who's on salary,

01:42:12.340 | and he does, you know, whatever,

01:42:13.500 | 40 or 50 of these a day or something.

01:42:15.260 | It doesn't take him long.

01:42:16.660 | And so it's cheaper that way,

01:42:18.740 | where we pay for the appraisals, the whole thing.

01:42:22.020 | - Got it.

01:42:22.860 | So everybody's getting paid.

01:42:23.980 | - Right.

01:42:24.820 | And so at this point, I'm doing that, right?

01:42:27.980 | You know, and I'm getting caught periodically.

01:42:30.140 | - Can you give an example?

01:42:31.300 | What do you mean getting caught?

01:42:32.620 | - I'm living in Tampa Heights,

01:42:35.260 | which is right next to Ybor City in Tampa, right?

01:42:37.340 | So this is all, these are all like little suburbs of Tampa,

01:42:40.420 | and they're all built back in the 1920s, right?

01:42:43.540 | 1890s, 1910, 1920.

01:42:45.980 | So I've bought this eight unit building.

01:42:48.660 | I renovated it into a triplex.

01:42:50.780 | I mean, I'm driving an Audi.

01:42:52.660 | I'm dating a woman that I should not have been dating.

01:42:56.740 | Like, I mean, I don't know what she was thinking.

01:42:59.260 | So I'm, you know, we were going on vacations.

01:43:02.260 | Like everything, life's good.

01:43:03.460 | So, but every once in a while, you know,

01:43:06.220 | like where, you know, where things happen,

01:43:08.780 | you get a phone call.

01:43:09.620 | Hey, this is what just happened.

01:43:11.180 | And I, one time I got a phone call from same broker, Kelly.

01:43:15.660 | Kelly calls me up and said, listen, we got a problem.

01:43:18.260 | This was, I want to say this was Alan Duncan.

01:43:23.020 | This was one of the first ones that I had done, right?

01:43:24.940 | We used him, but, and so he,

01:43:28.460 | so she calls me up and says, listen,

01:43:32.980 | Alan Duncan never made his first mortgage payment.

01:43:37.420 | And I had a friend of mine, or one of my co-defendants,

01:43:43.940 | when we closed on that loan,

01:43:47.420 | we both got checks for whatever, 40 or 50 grand.

01:43:51.540 | Keep in mind, we're also buying,

01:43:53.020 | some of this money's going into a business account.

01:43:55.580 | We're buying property.

01:43:57.140 | We're buying, so it's not like I'm pocketing

01:43:59.420 | hundreds of thousands of dollars or even, you know,

01:44:02.380 | even 20 or $30,000 on every closing.

01:44:05.220 | I'm more like, I'm getting 25, 10, 20,

01:44:08.540 | and this guy's getting 10 and this guy's getting 15.

01:44:10.860 | And then we're taking 60

01:44:13.740 | and we're putting it into the business account.

01:44:15.140 | We're buying a bunch of vacant lots

01:44:16.500 | or we're building some new houses.

01:44:17.940 | So we're trying to kind of take all this

01:44:20.100 | and turn it into a development company.

01:44:22.100 | But we still have to pay our bills.

01:44:25.440 | So, you know, my buddy's got to go to,

01:44:27.500 | he's got to go to Amsterdam at least for two weeks.

01:44:29.580 | You know, he's from Belgium.

01:44:31.360 | That's, you apparently have to do that at least once a year.

01:44:33.480 | So he was, so when I gave him his check,

01:44:37.340 | I said, look, you're going to make the,

01:44:40.260 | here's the like 20 grand or 15 grand,

01:44:41.940 | but you got to make the payments on this thing

01:44:43.300 | for the next six months.

01:44:44.140 | He was, no problem.

01:44:45.140 | I said, okay.

01:44:46.600 | So she calls me up a month and a half later and says,

01:44:50.300 | hey, Alan Duncan did not make his first payment.

01:44:55.300 | And I went, oh my God.

01:44:58.300 | And he was actually renting the apartment downstairs from me.

01:45:01.220 | So I run downstairs and I opened the door and I go, bro,

01:45:04.060 | I'm like, did you make Duncan's payment?

01:45:06.100 | And he turns around and he's like, is it due?

01:45:07.860 | And I was like, oh my God.

01:45:09.300 | So I run back, you know, I grabbed the phone.

01:45:10.900 | I'm like, he didn't make it.

01:45:11.740 | He didn't make it.

01:45:12.560 | She's like, okay, well, here's what's happening.

01:45:13.820 | The account executive is calling.

01:45:16.400 | They've got the file and it was called,

01:45:18.100 | it was Southstar Bank.

01:45:19.820 | Southstar Bank has it.

01:45:21.180 | They reviewed it.

01:45:22.260 | They've already been ordering documents.

01:45:24.100 | They're saying that this guy, there's a problem.

01:45:27.480 | They are, it's falling apart.

01:45:30.220 | Like the whole thing's falling.

01:45:31.060 | They know something's wrong.

01:45:32.440 | - But they don't know exactly what.

01:45:33.700 | There's just something suspicious.

01:45:35.360 | - She didn't tell me that on the phone.

01:45:37.060 | Like she's saying there's something wrong.

01:45:38.820 | They're freaking out.

01:45:39.900 | 'Cause the account executive didn't really know.

01:45:41.600 | She just got a phone call saying, hey,

01:45:43.300 | have you ever met this broker?

01:45:45.260 | Did she meet the guy?

01:45:46.460 | Who is the guy?

01:45:47.380 | He hasn't paid.

01:45:48.200 | We're calling the cell.

01:45:49.040 | Nobody's answering.

01:45:50.220 | And really most of this was my buddy Rudy's fault.

01:45:53.920 | He's not doing any of this stuff.

01:45:55.100 | He, any of the things he's supposed to be doing.

01:45:56.580 | So we go to the office and I call Southstar Bank.

01:46:00.740 | I get the secretary and I said, look,

01:46:02.460 | I need to talk to whatever the guy, the big guy was.

01:46:06.180 | It was one of them was like the president.

01:46:07.380 | One was like the somebody else, anyway, vice president.

01:46:10.780 | So I said, I need to talk to so-and-so, the vice president.

01:46:13.020 | She says, I'm sorry, he's in a business meeting.

01:46:14.420 | I said, well, listen, tell him this is Alan Duncan.

01:46:17.780 | Like you need to go tell him

01:46:18.780 | is Alan Duncan's on the phone right now.

01:46:21.140 | I'm sure you, he wants to talk to me.

01:46:23.820 | And she's like, all right, hold on.

01:46:25.420 | And I mean like 20 seconds later, speakerphone.

01:46:30.300 | Hey, Mr. Duncan, this is so-and-so.

01:46:34.040 | And I'm here with our lawyer and the president of the bank

01:46:38.280 | and our head of fraud.

01:46:40.160 | We were just discussing you.

01:46:41.920 | And I was like, okay.

01:46:43.600 | I understand that you guys, I haven't made my first payment.

01:46:46.320 | I said, it actually came back in the mail.

01:46:48.560 | I had the wrong address.

01:46:49.520 | That was completely my fault and I apologize.

01:46:51.360 | I said, but I can get you a cashier's check today.

01:46:54.520 | I will overnight it, no problem.

01:46:57.640 | Hope that's gonna be okay.

01:46:58.600 | I said, they said, wait, we're way past that.

01:47:01.480 | Way past that.

01:47:02.920 | I said, okay, well, what's the issue?

01:47:06.560 | And they were like, I mean, look, to be honest,

01:47:09.380 | I don't think I'm talking to Alan Duncan.

01:47:11.000 | I don't think there is an Alan Duncan.

01:47:12.200 | He's like, I mean, your social security number

01:47:13.780 | was issued a couple of years ago.

01:47:15.480 | We called the bank and this was why we had gone

01:47:20.120 | with like South or SunTrust Bank, right?

01:47:24.120 | So it was a real bank.

01:47:26.100 | So it wasn't our normal bank.

01:47:28.440 | And they called, they don't have any record of you.

01:47:32.240 | And I was like, well, I've never been happy

01:47:33.500 | with South Star Bank there.

01:47:35.240 | It sounds like a banking error.

01:47:36.800 | And they're like, yeah, I don't think this isn't cute.

01:47:40.440 | He says, I don't think I'm talking to Alan Duncan right now.

01:47:43.440 | Right.

01:47:44.280 | And you were--

01:47:45.100 | Terrified, terrified.

01:47:46.360 | But you'll have to be playing it cool, I guess.

01:47:48.440 | I mean, I know, what am I gonna say?

01:47:49.880 | No, you're talking to Matt Cox.

01:47:50.840 | Like, I can't say that.

01:47:51.980 | Like, I'm just gotta keep running with it.

01:47:53.360 | Just like, okay, well, look.

01:47:55.240 | And he's like, we called the DMV.

01:48:00.000 | They don't have a list of you in their website.

01:48:03.720 | We think that the, you know, we don't think you exist.

01:48:07.200 | You know, we're still waiting for a phone call back

01:48:08.800 | from who, so and so, and so, and so, and so.

01:48:10.560 | And I'm just like, oh my God.

01:48:12.320 | And I said, have you called the authorities yet?

01:48:16.920 | And they were like, no, we haven't.

01:48:18.120 | But once we put our file together, we will.

01:48:20.520 | And then the head of the fraud department,

01:48:22.960 | they said, oh, by the way, Mr., I forget his name,

01:48:25.560 | but the head of the fraud department,

01:48:27.720 | worked for the FBI for like 10 years or something,

01:48:30.680 | or 12 years.

01:48:31.680 | And so, I mean, I'm just like,

01:48:35.600 | and by the way, the broker is there,

01:48:39.140 | and my buddy Rudy is there.

01:48:42.180 | And I mean, he's pacing the room.

01:48:44.960 | She's in tears, crying.

01:48:47.520 | And I'm like, okay, well, fellas,

01:48:49.480 | I say, where's this headed?

01:48:50.960 | Where's this going?

01:48:51.800 | What are we doing?

01:48:53.080 | And so, they're kind of chuckling and joking about it.

01:48:56.920 | And I remember being like thinking, what's the deal?

01:48:59.520 | Like, it's weird.

01:49:01.960 | And I said, look, why don't I just,

01:49:03.720 | let me just pay you back.

01:49:06.520 | They said, ah, we'll get the money.

01:49:08.080 | We're not worried about it.

01:49:08.920 | I said, you don't seem worried about the money,

01:49:10.320 | about getting any of the money back.

01:49:12.080 | Like, why don't you just let me,

01:49:13.360 | I'll cut you a check.

01:49:14.200 | I can get you the money back.

01:49:15.020 | Like, I owed him like 150 or something.

01:49:16.920 | I forget exactly.

01:49:17.760 | It was nothing.

01:49:18.600 | Like, I owe you 150,000.

01:49:19.440 | Let me cut your check for 150,000.

01:49:22.000 | And they were like, no, no, you know,

01:49:24.480 | that's, we'll get the money back

01:49:26.360 | when we foreclose on the property.

01:49:28.280 | And that's when I was like, oh.

01:49:30.440 | They think the property's worth like $195,000 or something.

01:49:36.480 | And I went, oh, I said, I understand.

01:49:39.200 | Okay, so do you have the appraisal in front of you?

01:49:41.960 | And they were like, yeah.

01:49:43.160 | And I said, open it up.

01:49:44.160 | I said, take a look at comp number one.

01:49:46.600 | That's owned by a guy named, you know, Lee Black.

01:49:50.720 | Comp number two, you know, is owned by, you know,

01:49:54.000 | whatever, David Silver, whatever the names were.

01:49:56.400 | And I'm like, you know, like, black, silver, red.

01:50:01.120 | I said, I am all those people.

01:50:03.720 | And I said, let me tell you what I've done.

01:50:05.160 | And I tell him, just lay it out, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

01:50:08.140 | I said, so you can call the FBI,

01:50:11.860 | but you're not gonna get all your money back.

01:50:13.720 | Or you can let me give you your money back.

01:50:18.460 | And we can let this, we let sleeping dogs lie.

01:50:22.120 | The whole thing goes away.

01:50:24.220 | I apologize.

01:50:26.100 | You know, I had every intention of making all the payments.

01:50:28.940 | It's a glitch.

01:50:29.780 | You caught me.

01:50:30.620 | No, my bad.

01:50:31.460 | And so these guys are all just like, oh my God.

01:50:34.160 | Like now they're, they put me on hold.

01:50:36.180 | They're looking through the file.

01:50:37.380 | They come back.

01:50:38.620 | And I remember at some point we go back, forth, back, forth.

01:50:40.900 | And finally they come back and they said, listen,

01:50:42.700 | you still have the money?

01:50:44.340 | I said, yeah.

01:50:45.180 | Well, first they come back, they threatened me.

01:50:46.860 | Oh, well, when we give us to the FBI, you're.

01:50:50.460 | I said, that's not true.

01:50:51.300 | I said, the money was deposited into a bank account.

01:50:53.300 | It has since been moved.

01:50:54.300 | The bank account has been closed.

01:50:56.380 | It's been removed in cash.

01:50:57.780 | That money is gone.

01:50:58.780 | You will never see that money.

01:51:00.260 | I will be cutting you.

01:51:01.100 | If I pay you back at all, it'll be from another account.

01:51:03.700 | And so the FBI agent ends up saying he's right.

01:51:06.640 | Even if we caught him red handed,

01:51:09.640 | the likelihood that any of these funds

01:51:11.580 | will be ever be recouped is zero.

01:51:15.020 | Like there's almost no money's ever recouped.

01:51:17.700 | And so we end up, they put me on hold again.

01:51:21.620 | They come back and they go,

01:51:22.800 | how quickly can you get us a cashier's check?

01:51:25.780 | And I go, like that day I go, get them a cashier's check.

01:51:29.620 | Overnight, the cashier's check.

01:51:31.060 | They never called the FBI.

01:51:34.100 | They never did anything.

01:51:36.060 | Now at that point, we actually ditched that whole,

01:51:38.260 | that James or Alan Duncan.

01:51:41.300 | I remember at that point we went to the mall,

01:51:43.420 | ran up all the credit cards and just threw everything away

01:51:45.540 | and walked away because it was shot.

01:51:48.700 | You know, that whole, that guy was shot.

01:51:49.980 | I think we borrowed whatever,

01:51:51.760 | $800,000 or 900,000 in his name.

01:51:54.180 | - With the banks, it's really, really all about the money.

01:51:57.140 | - Listen, when I go on the run,

01:51:58.500 | I got one where I was caught so red handed,

01:52:01.380 | it's insane how bad it was.

01:52:05.220 | And listen, that's nothing.

01:52:06.420 | I got caught by Washington Mutual one time.

01:52:10.300 | I was caught by Washington Mutual

01:52:11.740 | where we had done six owner-occupied duplexes.

01:52:16.740 | So if you say you're gonna live in a house,

01:52:19.940 | you can get about 95% financing.

01:52:22.660 | But if it's an investment property,

01:52:24.240 | you gotta put down 20%.

01:52:25.420 | You get about 80% financing.

01:52:27.540 | So a buddy of mine who was a sheriff's deputy,

01:52:32.540 | we had his wife buy,

01:52:35.620 | I'm gonna say six owner-occupied duplexes

01:52:40.940 | saying she lived in every single one of 'em.

01:52:43.140 | Well, you can't owner-occupy six dwellings.

01:52:47.620 | Like, that's fraud.

01:52:48.840 | Now, granted, her W-2s and pay stubs were correct,

01:52:51.780 | but she didn't put the down payments down.

01:52:53.340 | Even the down payments we didn't put down.

01:52:54.700 | We actually got cash back.

01:52:56.700 | But months later, they called a lawyer

01:53:00.900 | from Washington Mutual ends up calling the mortgage broker

01:53:07.180 | and saying that they ended up with two

01:53:11.540 | of the owner-occupied duplexes

01:53:13.980 | because Washington Mutual had a credit line extended

01:53:18.980 | to one of the lenders who'd lent the money.

01:53:21.460 | So it actually was Washington Mutual.

01:53:23.600 | So it was a couple months later when they went to sell it,

01:53:26.260 | and they packaged 'em together and sell 'em,

01:53:28.520 | they realized we have the same customer

01:53:30.540 | with two duplexes side-by-side, both owner-occupied.

01:53:34.080 | This is fraud.

01:53:35.300 | So she comes in, she tells me,

01:53:36.780 | "Oh, my gosh, this lawyer's on the phone.

01:53:38.900 | "This is what happened."

01:53:39.740 | I'm like, "Oh, wow, this is horrible."

01:53:41.740 | I end up getting on the phone with him.

01:53:43.540 | We have a conversation, and he's like,

01:53:46.640 | "Look, this is a big deal.

01:53:48.220 | "We could call the FBI."

01:53:49.460 | I'm like, "Look, who knows who was involved in this?

01:53:51.860 | "Maybe somebody on your side was involved.

01:53:53.500 | "Maybe somebody on my side.

01:53:54.640 | "I don't know what my mortgage broker did.

01:53:56.160 | "I'll deal with her on my own.

01:53:57.780 | "Why don't you just let us refinance the properties?"

01:54:00.780 | Not only did we talk him into allowing us

01:54:03.660 | to refinance the properties, he gave us a reduced balance

01:54:08.660 | of what we owed him, because we couldn't borrow enough

01:54:15.500 | to pay him off.

01:54:16.940 | So they took like a $20,000 hit

01:54:19.700 | just to refinance those properties.

01:54:22.780 | Never called the FBI.

01:54:24.420 | Never did anything.

01:54:25.480 | Absolutely fraud.

01:54:27.180 | Yeah, I had a broker one time we got called

01:54:28.780 | with over a million dollars in loans

01:54:31.140 | that he had done that were fraudulent.

01:54:33.900 | Pinnacle Bank Corp., which was out of Chicago,

01:54:37.480 | the owner called me, and he was like,

01:54:39.300 | "Look, your mortgage broker did this."

01:54:41.840 | There was a bunch of canceled checks.

01:54:44.600 | They were fake canceled checks.

01:54:46.200 | So they looked like they had run through the bank

01:54:48.080 | for somebody's rent, but they hadn't.

01:54:51.560 | Does that make sense?

01:54:52.900 | You pay your rent, they deposit it, it goes to the bank,

01:54:55.800 | and they've got all the numbers and everything.

01:54:57.200 | Well, I had a bunch that were blank

01:54:59.000 | that all you had to do was fill out

01:55:00.480 | your borrower's information,

01:55:02.520 | and then you cut and pasted his name and his address

01:55:06.960 | at the upper left-hand corner.

01:55:08.120 | You make a copy of it.

01:55:09.080 | It looks like canceled checks.

01:55:10.120 | We had 24 of them.

01:55:11.360 | Well, one of my brokers was using them for all of his files.

01:55:15.000 | Even if the person really had a rental history,

01:55:17.080 | he didn't wanna order it.

01:55:18.000 | He just did this.

01:55:18.920 | It was easier.

01:55:19.760 | It's faster, yeah.

01:55:20.580 | Yeah, just-- Wow.

01:55:22.060 | So they catch a million dollars worth of loans.

01:55:24.700 | They call me up, and then they caught another million dollars

01:55:28.240 | but they had already sold them to Household Bank.

01:55:31.720 | So while I'm on the phone with the owner, his name's Gary,

01:55:35.160 | and we're talking, he's like, look, this is what we found,

01:55:37.440 | this is this, this is what happened.

01:55:38.920 | And I remember I said, Gary, at the end of this conversation,

01:55:42.000 | if you think I'm cutting you a check for a million dollars,

01:55:43.720 | I said, I just don't have it.

01:55:45.200 | I don't have it.

01:55:46.560 | And this was when I owned the mortgage company.

01:55:48.600 | And he says, no, I'm asking you for your word

01:55:53.600 | that if any of these come back on us,

01:55:57.680 | they're in Florida, they're in your area,

01:55:59.820 | you'll help us get rid of the properties.

01:56:01.720 | We'll foreclose, we're gonna have to resell 'em,

01:56:03.640 | I don't wanna be flying down there,

01:56:05.040 | just help us get rid of 'em.

01:56:06.920 | I said, absolutely, of course, no problem.

01:56:09.880 | I said, what about the, I said,

01:56:11.080 | well, what are you gonna do with them?

01:56:11.960 | He goes, well, they're gonna be a part of a package,

01:56:14.320 | like a $3 million package we're selling to Household Bank.

01:56:17.440 | The other ones they had caught had already been sold.

01:56:19.840 | The ethical thing to do is to contact Household Bank,

01:56:24.840 | say, we will buy those back,

01:56:26.440 | we are gonna take care of, it's not what happened.

01:56:28.680 | In fact, Gary flew down a couple weeks later,

01:56:31.480 | took me and several of the brokers, not that broker,

01:56:34.160 | but several of the brokers out to dinner,

01:56:36.880 | had a few drinks, and he openly admitted,

01:56:38.840 | he's like, look, I don't care

01:56:40.920 | if all the loans have fraud in 'em,

01:56:42.800 | as long as they don't come back on me,

01:56:44.740 | that's what I'm concerned about.

01:56:46.200 | 'Cause there's a clawback clause for one year.

01:56:49.400 | He's like, so if they can perform for one year,

01:56:51.440 | I don't care.

01:56:52.740 | That was it.

01:56:55.440 | - How many people in the industry

01:56:57.080 | do you think are operating like this?

01:57:00.320 | And by like this, I mean in the aforementioned gray area?

01:57:07.120 | - I would say there's probably after the,

01:57:13.640 | like after the 2008 financial crisis,

01:57:17.680 | I would say it cleaned up considerably,

01:57:21.040 | but I would say at this point,

01:57:23.080 | it's just as bad as it ever was.

01:57:25.520 | And keep in mind these, a lot of the loans

01:57:27.280 | that caused the problems were,

01:57:32.280 | like they called them liar loans,

01:57:33.720 | or no-qualification, no-qual loans, right?

01:57:38.720 | No income.

01:57:40.000 | Well, those loans, they exist again.

01:57:45.120 | Like there are subprime companies

01:57:48.160 | that are doing that again.

01:57:49.200 | They don't think they call 'em subprime anymore,

01:57:51.400 | they call 'em so they got some other name.

01:57:53.440 | - Yeah, rebranded.

01:57:54.280 | - Yeah, they've rebranded a little bit,

01:57:55.560 | but it's happening all over again.

01:57:57.540 | - It just seems the whole real estate/banking system

01:58:03.720 | is very prone to this kind of corruption.

01:58:07.580 | - I mean, but how can you fix it?

01:58:10.320 | Like if, a lot of the things they fixed,

01:58:14.960 | a lot of the manipulation they fixed,

01:58:16.600 | but if you tighten it too much,

01:58:19.440 | then the average person can't get a loan.

01:58:21.520 | And the thing is, some of these loans,

01:58:26.600 | sometimes changing a W-2,

01:58:28.340 | should that person have gotten into that house?

01:58:31.200 | No, he shouldn't have, he didn't qualify.

01:58:34.020 | But he makes all of his payments.

01:58:35.940 | So it's like, is it a fraudulent loan?

01:58:37.200 | Yeah, but it performs.

01:58:39.040 | So I think that, I would say that,

01:58:42.460 | I forget what the FBI statistic was,

01:58:45.360 | it was like 20% or 30% prior to the financial crisis,

01:58:50.360 | it was like 20 or 30% of bank loans,

01:58:54.400 | they were saying that contained some kind of fraud,

01:58:56.600 | even if it was just a lie.

01:58:58.720 | If you wanna cut 30% out of the, that's a ton, that's a ton.

01:59:03.720 | - So you're on probation, and you're doing these,

01:59:06.680 | you're almost getting caught, you're almost getting caught,

01:59:09.500 | and you're doing these really large scale scams.

01:59:14.720 | How does it get to the point where you're on the run?

01:59:17.760 | - So, I'm doing multiple scams, right?

01:59:21.160 | So it's not just that I'm doing the scams

01:59:23.100 | with the Reservoir Dog scams, right?

01:59:25.700 | I'm not just doing those guys.

01:59:27.120 | I'm also creating other identities,

01:59:32.120 | because I've got other people that are involved,

01:59:34.160 | they wanna do a scam.

01:59:36.360 | So this chick I was dating, she wanted to run a scam.

01:59:42.520 | So I set up a scam, it's semi-complicated,

01:59:45.800 | but the bottom line is she ends up stealing a real person,

01:59:50.640 | we steal a real person's identity.

01:59:52.600 | I have a real person's identity,

01:59:54.460 | we get a driver's license in her name,

01:59:57.120 | open up some bank accounts,

01:59:59.080 | go rent a piece of property in her name.

02:00:01.700 | And I transfer the deed from the property

02:00:07.080 | out of the real owner's name,

02:00:09.540 | I transfer it into her stolen identity.

02:00:13.220 | We then refinance the house like three or four times.

02:00:19.140 | And so she starts going to these different closings.

02:00:21.740 | Her name is Allison, and she's pretending

02:00:24.200 | to be a Puerto Rican woman named Rosita Perez.

02:00:29.060 | Allison has brown hair and blue eyes,

02:00:35.560 | Rosita Perez clearly doesn't.

02:00:37.880 | So Allison, when we make the ID,

02:00:40.920 | she dyes her hair black, curls it a little bit,

02:00:45.760 | and gets the pictures taken of herself.

02:00:49.520 | But before she goes to the first closing,

02:00:53.080 | to get a check for like $100,000,

02:00:56.600 | we've got like three of these scheduled,

02:00:58.600 | she changes her hair color,

02:01:06.040 | she dyes it back like a dirty blonde,

02:01:10.440 | and she goes to the first closing and she gets a check,

02:01:13.080 | a check for $100,000, let's say.

02:01:14.320 | I don't know, it was like 95 or 105, whatever,

02:01:16.860 | roughly $100,000.

02:01:18.280 | She gets a check at the closing, they give it to her.

02:01:20.920 | We then go to the next closing.

02:01:22.660 | Well, at the next closing,

02:01:24.000 | the title person has her sign all the documents,

02:01:30.280 | but she's looking at her like, something's not right.

02:01:32.960 | Looks at her ID, makes a copy of the ID,

02:01:36.520 | looks at it and says, "This doesn't look like you."

02:01:39.120 | And she's like, "You know, you don't look Hispanic."

02:01:43.320 | And she's like, "Oh, I'm half Hispanic, what do you?"

02:01:45.880 | And she's like, "You don't,"

02:01:47.480 | but keep in mind, the photograph was her.

02:01:50.480 | So she's saying, "This doesn't look like you,"

02:01:52.960 | but it's her.

02:01:54.440 | Granted, she had the curly hair a little bit,

02:01:57.080 | but that's it.

02:01:58.840 | So Allison is like, "It's me."

02:02:00.720 | And she's like, "Look, I'm not gonna cut you,

02:02:02.320 | "I'm not gonna give you the check."

02:02:03.840 | - Yeah.

02:02:05.280 | - "I mean, let's just sign the documents.

02:02:07.380 | "We can get the check.

02:02:09.000 | "I'll let you know."

02:02:10.440 | So she goes, gets in my car.

02:02:11.800 | She said, "Yeah, listen, there's a problem.

02:02:12.980 | "So we're driving down the road."

02:02:13.880 | She explains it to me.

02:02:15.160 | I realized, "Okay, that's done, it's over.

02:02:18.240 | "We're not going back."

02:02:19.160 | She's like, "What about the other closing?"

02:02:20.120 | "No, no, no more closings, we're done."

02:02:22.360 | And it was probably more of a screaming and yelling,

02:02:26.960 | like, "What the hell did you do?

02:02:28.080 | "Why told you not to change your hair?

02:02:29.800 | "Why would you change your hair?"

02:02:31.200 | Like that, when she came in like the day before

02:02:33.160 | and I was like, "What did you do?

02:02:34.380 | "What did you do?"

02:02:35.760 | And she's like, "I changed my hair.

02:02:36.600 | "What's the big deal?

02:02:37.420 | "It's still me."

02:02:38.260 | "Sure enough."

02:02:39.520 | You know, and that's, like,

02:02:42.640 | it's not that I knew that that was gonna happen,

02:02:45.440 | but why tempt fate?

02:02:47.280 | - How'd you meet Allison?

02:02:48.200 | Like, what was-- - She was a mortgage broker.

02:02:50.480 | - Oh, okay.

02:02:51.320 | - And I had done some fraudulent.

02:02:52.840 | She worked for another mortgage company.

02:02:54.840 | Sorry, she worked for another mortgage company.

02:02:56.880 | She couldn't get a loan closed.

02:02:58.600 | The owner of that mortgage company called me

02:03:00.920 | and said, "Look, we got a loan.

02:03:02.080 | "We need it closed."

02:03:03.920 | And I said, "Great."

02:03:04.760 | And when guys would call me, I'd say,

02:03:06.180 | "Great, I'll come pick it up.

02:03:07.620 | "I'll give you a $300 or a $500 referral fee."

02:03:10.940 | "No, no, it's a couple hundred thousand dollars.

02:03:13.820 | "We wanna close it."

02:03:14.720 | "Well, if you--"

02:03:15.560 | "Then close it."

02:03:17.000 | "Well, I can't close it.

02:03:17.940 | "We need a W-2 or we need this, we need that.

02:03:20.840 | "We can't figure out how to do it."

02:03:22.680 | So I go over there and typically I convince them,

02:03:24.880 | "Just give it to me.

02:03:25.720 | "It's not gonna close."

02:03:26.560 | She was, you'd have to see this chick.

02:03:30.760 | She was gorgeous.

02:03:31.840 | She was gorgeous, very flirtatious,

02:03:34.800 | made me feel like I was saying and handsome.

02:03:36.920 | So like she gets whatever she wants.

02:03:40.820 | So I'm like, "Okay, look, here's what you do."

02:03:43.500 | And I explained to her, "Do this, do this, do this.

02:03:45.400 | "Send it here, it'll close."

02:03:47.160 | And she, "We closed it."

02:03:48.120 | Well, then she starts calling me, right?

02:03:50.360 | "Hey, how's it going?

02:03:51.600 | "We go to lunch, next thing you know,

02:03:53.600 | "we start sleeping together."

02:03:55.040 | She realizes what's happening.

02:03:56.780 | She says, "I want in on this."

02:03:59.880 | So now we do the closings.

02:04:02.120 | We're on our way.

02:04:03.920 | I say, "Look, that check's dead."

02:04:06.880 | She goes, "What about the other one?"

02:04:08.920 | I go, "No, no, it's all dead.

02:04:09.920 | "We're walking away."

02:04:11.520 | Now, that was easy for me to say

02:04:14.200 | because for me, I had money.

02:04:18.320 | She's going through a divorce, she's broke.

02:04:20.380 | You know, like none of this did I take into consideration

02:04:22.880 | at the time, by the way.

02:04:24.320 | To me, it's like, "Nah, that's dead, we're done.

02:04:26.240 | "We'll start over again."

02:04:28.240 | To her, in her mind, she was about to make,

02:04:31.680 | we were getting probably, that was a million-dollar scam.

02:04:34.840 | She was about to end up getting whatever it was,

02:04:37.480 | half or one-third of half a million dollars

02:04:39.960 | in the next week.

02:04:41.060 | Now she's got nothing.

02:04:42.760 | So she says, "Look, let's at least cash this one."

02:04:47.760 | And I had a buddy named Travis Hayes

02:04:51.720 | who had been, you know, we actually were,

02:04:55.880 | we've been friends since high school.

02:04:57.360 | We were like best friends, right?

02:04:58.800 | Really close friends in high school.

02:05:00.920 | We were still close.

02:05:02.800 | Travis was running a scam.

02:05:05.620 | This one, hers was in Clearwater, his was in Orlando.

02:05:09.480 | So I'm getting all over the state at this point, right?

02:05:12.560 | So he's running an Orlando scam

02:05:15.400 | that's already yielded half a million, maybe more.

02:05:18.820 | He's still pulling, we're still refinancing properties,

02:05:21.080 | right, so he's about to close on another half a million

02:05:23.080 | dollars worth of properties.

02:05:24.480 | He's got a bank account that's open.

02:05:26.100 | She says, "Let's give it to Travis,

02:05:27.280 | "have him deposit it in his account."

02:05:29.240 | He's already pulled out like 300,000 out of the account.

02:05:32.600 | And she's like, "Shouldn't be a problem."

02:05:33.760 | I was like, "No, no, no."

02:05:36.080 | And she goes, "Let me call him."

02:05:37.200 | She calls him, I think I called him

02:05:40.240 | and I explained the situation.

02:05:41.720 | He's, "Do you think it's okay?"

02:05:42.560 | And I said, "No, I don't think it's okay.

02:05:43.680 | "I don't think it's okay at all."

02:05:45.080 | And he's like, "No, it's not a big deal.

02:05:48.020 | "Just give me the check."

02:05:49.360 | So I give him the check.

02:05:51.160 | He goes, he deposits the check.

02:05:53.460 | They say they're gonna hold it 'til it clears.

02:05:55.380 | You know, that was kind of a thing back then.

02:05:58.100 | It takes, I don't know.

02:06:01.540 | I don't know how long it took, five days, six days,

02:06:05.900 | whatever it was, he was supposed to go back

02:06:07.600 | and it would have cleared

02:06:08.440 | and he would have been able to start pulling money out.

02:06:10.800 | And so I call him one day 'cause Allison's bugging me.

02:06:13.400 | So I call him and I go, "Hey, where are you at?"

02:06:15.200 | He goes, "I'm actually on my way to Orlando."

02:06:17.800 | And I said, "Oh, okay."

02:06:18.640 | He said, "But let Allison know I'm not getting any money."

02:06:21.400 | He said, "The bank manager called and said

02:06:23.920 | "that because the check was over $100,000,

02:06:27.560 | "they have to witness me endorsing the back of the check."

02:06:31.920 | Or they had to see my something, right?

02:06:34.840 | And for me to come in, I went, "Whoa, whoa, whoa."

02:06:36.160 | I said, "Something's wrong, something's wrong.

02:06:37.880 | "Don't go to the bank.

02:06:39.740 | "What do you think's wrong?

02:06:40.580 | "I think the cops are waiting for you.

02:06:41.660 | "That's what I think's wrong."

02:06:42.880 | And he goes, "No, the cops aren't."

02:06:43.760 | He goes, "Man, I'm in the parking lot right now.

02:06:45.160 | "I just pulled into the parking lot.

02:06:46.000 | "There's no cops."

02:06:46.840 | I'm like, "They're not gonna be in squad cars."

02:06:48.820 | And he's like, "No."

02:06:49.660 | He said, "It's fine, you're overreacting, bro."

02:06:51.960 | And I'll never forget what he said.

02:06:53.760 | He said, "You're shaking like a little girl, bro.

02:06:56.640 | "Calm down, I got this.

02:06:58.060 | "I'm cool with the manager."

02:06:59.800 | Like the manager, because you've chopped it up

02:07:02.320 | with the manager, he's gonna let

02:07:03.540 | your fraudulent check go through.

02:07:06.040 | So he walks in, the cops are in there.

02:07:09.760 | They locked the door.

02:07:10.640 | This he told me later, they closed the door, locked it.

02:07:13.680 | The cops are in there, they grab him,

02:07:15.780 | and they bring him downtown.

02:07:19.480 | He didn't say anything.

02:07:20.880 | He won't say anything.

02:07:21.980 | That's not true, by the way.

02:07:24.720 | But so here's what he told me, he wouldn't say anything.

02:07:26.720 | I told him, "I'm not talking to you coppers."

02:07:29.080 | - Oh, he told you, but he actually did talk to him.

02:07:31.600 | - He actually did talk to him.

02:07:32.440 | So what ends up happening is we can't get in touch with him.

02:07:37.440 | So we're calling and calling and calling,

02:07:41.520 | and then finally I decide, you know what?

02:07:43.200 | I'm not gonna call his cell phone anymore.

02:07:45.000 | I'm gonna call the name of the person he was

02:07:50.640 | that the synthetic identities number, right?

02:07:53.520 | So I go and I call the synthetic identities number.

02:07:56.500 | I call and I say, somebody answers and I go,

02:07:59.760 | "Hey, is so-and-so there?"

02:08:02.480 | And he said, and it's a gruff, authoritarian voice,

02:08:06.160 | you know, this is law enforcement.

02:08:08.080 | And he's like, "No, who's this?"

02:08:09.840 | He goes, "No, this is officer so-and-so, who's this?"

02:08:12.160 | And I go, I was like, "Oh, this is Lee Black."

02:08:14.960 | I said, he said, he goes, "How do you know so-and-so?"

02:08:17.000 | I was like, "Oh, no, no."

02:08:17.840 | Click, and I just hung up.

02:08:18.720 | And I called for like a pay phone.

02:08:20.840 | So I turned around, I said, he got arrested.

02:08:23.200 | And then later on that night,

02:08:24.200 | he showed up on the county website,

02:08:27.400 | you know, the arrest website showing he had been arrested.

02:08:30.360 | And the next day he calls me

02:08:33.720 | and he asked me to get him out of jail.

02:08:37.000 | Like, "Hey, you gotta go."

02:08:38.360 | So I have to give his brother-in-law money.

02:08:40.860 | You know, we get him out of jail.

02:08:43.880 | He actually got out-- - For bailing?

02:08:45.040 | - Yeah, he got out for like nothing.

02:08:46.440 | And here's where I should have known

02:08:48.240 | that he was cooperating.

02:08:49.760 | It went from like $300,000 bond down to like $10,000.

02:08:54.080 | So it's a thousand bucks.

02:08:54.960 | So right then, I didn't know it at the time,

02:08:57.320 | but obviously that means we're gonna let him out of jail.

02:08:59.760 | He's cooperating.

02:09:01.200 | So they let him out of jail.

02:09:03.440 | I go and I get him a lawyer, a state.

02:09:06.120 | This was state, by the way.

02:09:07.520 | It wasn't federal.

02:09:08.460 | So I get him a lawyer for like $15,000.

02:09:12.600 | He comes, you know, he comes there.

02:09:15.200 | Of course, he tells me, look,

02:09:16.040 | they asked me a bunch of questions.

02:09:17.040 | I told him that he made up some story

02:09:21.880 | about he's working with another guy,

02:09:23.760 | but he doesn't know the guy's name.

02:09:24.960 | He made up a name.

02:09:25.800 | He has this whole kind of thing

02:09:27.520 | where he tells them about me, but not me.

02:09:30.040 | And he's like, you know, none of the numbers led anywhere.

02:09:34.200 | So they all lead to cell phones

02:09:36.100 | that are only being used for those scams.

02:09:38.320 | So it's a dead alley or blind alley.

02:09:41.520 | And I'm like, okay, okay.

02:09:43.240 | And I mean, I'm paying him, like he's coming in.

02:09:45.840 | Man, my truck's no good.

02:09:47.760 | I need another truck.

02:09:48.600 | I buy him another truck.

02:09:49.440 | Hey, man, the electric's gonna get turned off.

02:09:52.240 | And I don't have, oh, I need $1,000.

02:09:55.840 | Of course, here's $1,000.

02:09:57.000 | I don't know what I was, I'm embarrassed you had to ask.

02:09:58.960 | Here's 1,000.

02:09:59.920 | You know, and a week later, you know,

02:10:01.440 | he needs 2,000 for this, 1,000 for this, 2,000 for this.

02:10:04.040 | He wants to start a tree trimming company.

02:10:05.840 | He needs to buy a tree trimmer.

02:10:07.240 | How much are those?

02:10:08.080 | 5,000, of course.

02:10:09.760 | 10, so I give him another 25,000.

02:10:11.400 | Starts like a tree trimming business,

02:10:13.040 | which he runs to this day.

02:10:14.900 | Um, what I don't know is that, you know,

02:10:19.900 | the whole time he's actually working with a task force

02:10:23.740 | that's been put together.

02:10:25.100 | - Federal or?

02:10:26.260 | - This is state at this point.

02:10:27.460 | It's a state task force,

02:10:29.380 | 'cause there's multiple counties involved at this point.

02:10:31.420 | And it wasn't hard for him to explain.

02:10:33.500 | Like, this is, this comes back to reservoir dogs.

02:10:36.060 | I got a much, all he had to say to the officers was,

02:10:38.300 | listen, you gotta let me go.

02:10:40.100 | I can't do any prison time.

02:10:41.380 | I'm gonna tell you about a much, much bigger scam.

02:10:43.860 | And they go, okay, well, how can you prove that scam?

02:10:46.060 | Pull up Hillsborough County,

02:10:47.380 | Hillsborough County's tax appraiser website.

02:10:50.740 | Okay, look up the name James Red.

02:10:52.940 | Look, all of these were bought six months ago.

02:10:56.620 | Six months later, they're all in foreclosure.

02:10:59.380 | Pull up Lee Black.

02:11:00.740 | All of these were bought.

02:11:02.020 | Look, six months later, all of them are foreclosure.

02:11:04.700 | Hey, pull up James, pull up Brandon Green, pull up.

02:11:09.540 | So all of these are going in foreclosure.

02:11:11.540 | I mean, it's so, it's like, you know,

02:11:13.380 | that what I thought was so cute, not cute.

02:11:16.460 | It was just stupid.

02:11:18.060 | And so he very quickly, they put together a task force.

02:11:20.460 | He's working with them on the task force.

02:11:23.540 | And we're still buying houses,

02:11:28.540 | flipping houses, doing everything.

02:11:29.860 | 'Cause I'm, I believe him.

02:11:30.980 | I believe he's not, you know, he's saying,

02:11:33.780 | look, if I have to go to jail for, you know, a year or so,

02:11:35.940 | like, you know, and he's also paying, you know,

02:11:37.940 | he hasn't paid them back yet, but he,

02:11:39.820 | but we're saying he can pay them back.

02:11:42.100 | Like, it's like, look, if we get to the point, you know,

02:11:44.220 | when we get to that point, like we'll pay them back.

02:11:47.320 | But we haven't paid them back yet.

02:11:50.680 | 'Cause we have no way to show where that money came from.

02:11:52.580 | We can always go to like one of his relatives

02:11:54.180 | and give his dad 40 grand, give his mom 20 grand,

02:11:57.540 | you know, that kind of stuff and start putting money

02:11:58.980 | that way.

02:11:59.820 | And all that money was taken out in cash too.

02:12:01.420 | So we could always show up with a chunk in cash.

02:12:03.780 | Regardless, you know, it's still in the process.

02:12:06.800 | And I think that we're still in the process

02:12:08.100 | and it could be six months or a year away

02:12:09.740 | 'cause it's a slow thing.

02:12:10.560 | I've already been through the process my first time

02:12:12.980 | when I got in trouble and it was a year,

02:12:14.540 | but from the time that I was spoken to

02:12:17.260 | until I pled guilty and was sentenced.

02:12:19.700 | So I'm not concerned about it.

02:12:23.980 | Well, that's happening.

02:12:26.060 | We're still flipping properties.

02:12:27.420 | And one day I have a buddy named Steve Sutton,

02:12:32.420 | remember the sheriff's deputy.

02:12:35.260 | And keep in mind, it's funny because like I've done bad loans

02:12:38.060 | for police officers, sheriffs, lawyers, doctors,

02:12:43.060 | like, you know, across everybody.

02:12:45.160 | These aren't like all, you know.

02:12:47.440 | - Yeah, everybody.

02:12:48.600 | - Guys that, you know, these aren't all like, you know,

02:12:51.000 | construction workers or guys that work in mechanics

02:12:53.360 | or something.

02:12:54.200 | These are like legitimate people that have credit problems

02:12:56.800 | or whatever the case may be.

02:12:58.480 | So one day I'm sitting at work

02:13:00.980 | and I'd been getting phone calls for the prior week

02:13:08.020 | from people at title companies saying,

02:13:10.280 | "Hey, Matt, wanted to let you know,

02:13:12.600 | we just had some subpoenas served on several of your files."

02:13:16.760 | And I'm concerned, like that had me concerned.

02:13:21.040 | Then a guy named Jeff Testerman starts making phone calls.

02:13:26.040 | Jeff Testerman is a reporter for the St. Petersburg Times.

02:13:30.080 | He's calling people saying,

02:13:33.080 | "Hey, I noticed that you sold a piece of property

02:13:37.160 | to Lee Black.

02:13:38.380 | Have you ever met Mr. Black?"

02:13:39.560 | He seems like, and they're like just hanging up on him

02:13:41.880 | or saying, "No, I don't know what you're talking about.

02:13:43.200 | I'm not sure what that guy's name was.

02:13:44.880 | Let me call you back."

02:13:46.240 | And I'm getting phone calls from people.

02:13:47.520 | So I know something's up with the newspaper.

02:13:49.200 | Now I know something's being looked at,

02:13:51.260 | but nobody's really talking.

02:13:53.000 | I know that there are subpoenas being served

02:13:57.760 | and I'm nervous, you know, I'm very concerned.

02:14:01.640 | And then one day I'm in my office

02:14:03.820 | and the sheriff's deputy walks in, Steve Sutton,

02:14:07.680 | in his uniform too, which everybody always stiffened,

02:14:10.000 | you know, when he would walk in.

02:14:11.080 | So he walks in, I go, "Steve," I said, "What's going on?"

02:14:13.120 | He's head, and usually he's jolly and laughs and stuff.

02:14:16.000 | And he goes, and he says, "I gotta talk to you outside."

02:14:18.720 | I was like, "Okay."

02:14:19.880 | I walk outside, "What's up?"

02:14:21.800 | And he says, "I used to date this girl

02:14:24.680 | in the Tampa Police Department or something, right?"

02:14:27.480 | I was like, "Okay."

02:14:28.720 | He said, "She showed up at my house this morning

02:14:30.880 | at like six o'clock in the morning."

02:14:32.920 | I went, "Okay."

02:14:34.960 | He said, "She said that she's been working on a task force."

02:14:38.160 | And he said, "Apparently one of your buddies

02:14:41.760 | got arrested in Orlando.

02:14:44.400 | They're investigating some other thing in Clearwater.

02:14:47.560 | They're investigating a ton of properties here

02:14:49.760 | in Ybor, Tampa Heights.

02:14:52.600 | And I mean, there's like a hundred properties involved.

02:14:58.040 | And my name came up because you've sold some properties

02:15:02.120 | to me," which I had.

02:15:04.480 | And he's like, "So she came to me and said,

02:15:06.240 | 'Look, your buddy Cox.'"

02:15:08.120 | He said, and I was like, "Okay."

02:15:09.800 | He goes, he said, "Well, the task force is on you."

02:15:12.720 | And she said to stop talking to you

02:15:14.520 | because they're gonna come arrest you in a couple days.

02:15:17.440 | They just handed over the task force findings to the FBI,

02:15:22.400 | and the FBI is going to come arrest you in a couple days.

02:15:25.800 | And she said not to talk to you.

02:15:28.160 | Because you're going to cooperate,

02:15:31.240 | and because all white collar guys cooperate.

02:15:34.880 | So she thinks you're gonna cooperate and not to talk to you

02:15:39.520 | 'cause she's afraid you're gonna get me hemmed up.

02:15:40.960 | And she said just to walk away.

02:15:42.280 | And he was like, "So I thought you should know."

02:15:45.000 | And I was like, "Okay."

02:15:46.760 | And he said, "What are you gonna do?"

02:15:47.880 | I said, "Oh, I'm, you know, I don't know."

02:15:52.200 | Well, first he said, "What should I do?"

02:15:53.760 | And I go, "Tell 'em, tell 'em that I arranged

02:15:56.880 | all the loans for you.

02:15:58.760 | You came in, you signed the paperwork.

02:16:00.520 | I filled out all the documents.

02:16:01.680 | You signed the paperwork.

02:16:02.800 | You, you know, I arranged everything."

02:16:04.560 | I'm like, "You're not a mortgage broker.

02:16:05.720 | You don't know if this is legit.

02:16:07.680 | Like, you signed, you have perfect credit.

02:16:09.600 | You signed the paperwork.

02:16:10.640 | You walked away with a check for 30,000.

02:16:12.360 | You don't know."

02:16:13.600 | And he was like, 'cause he did it 'cause he had a job.

02:16:15.600 | He was a sheriff's deputy.

02:16:16.480 | Like, I'm not a, you know.

02:16:17.760 | I went in, I applied for a loan at a bank.

02:16:21.840 | They said, "You can buy the house

02:16:23.600 | and we'll give you $30,000."

02:16:25.040 | So of course I'm gonna do that, you know.

02:16:26.960 | That's not gonna happen, but he doesn't know.

02:16:29.840 | He's, and I said, "Just tell 'em, yeah.

02:16:31.520 | Tell 'em you'll cooperate."

02:16:32.560 | Like, absolutely.

02:16:33.640 | He's, "What are you gonna do?"

02:16:36.400 | I said, "Me?"

02:16:37.220 | I said, "I'm leaving, bro.

02:16:38.320 | I'm leaving."

02:16:39.160 | I said, "I can't, I can't stay here.

02:16:41.120 | I can't go to prison.

02:16:42.560 | Like, I was just sentenced.

02:16:43.480 | I'm on federal probation right now.

02:16:44.840 | Like, the judge isn't gonna be cool

02:16:45.960 | with me getting popped again.

02:16:47.800 | Like, I mean, he, I can't do it.

02:16:51.040 | Can't do it."

02:16:51.880 | I said, "I'm leaving.

02:16:53.080 | Can't go to prison.

02:16:53.920 | I'm adorable, bro.

02:16:55.340 | Like, you know, I can't.

02:16:56.520 | I saw Shawshank Redemption.

02:16:57.760 | I know what's gonna happen.

02:16:58.920 | I can't."

02:16:59.740 | - You're too good looking.

02:17:00.580 | - "Yeah, I can't do that.

02:17:01.420 | That's not gonna happen.

02:17:02.400 | Like, I can't, you know, I can't,

02:17:03.680 | I'm not gonna defend myself against a guy

02:17:06.120 | who's six foot three and tatted up.

02:17:09.220 | No.

02:17:10.400 | So, and you know, and I can't, I'm not gonna,

02:17:12.000 | I'm no benefit to a gang.

02:17:13.680 | Like, I'm not, I'm a nonviolent, you know,

02:17:16.120 | soft white collar criminal."

02:17:18.240 | So I was just like, I was like, "Yeah, I'm leaving, bro.

02:17:20.840 | I'm leaving."

02:17:22.000 | So I actually went home, well, actually I was able to,

02:17:27.000 | I started cutting checks to people, right?

02:17:29.240 | So I cut checks to Allison, to Johnny,

02:17:32.360 | to like everybody I could think of.

02:17:33.400 | Here's 5,000.

02:17:34.240 | Here's 7,000.

02:17:35.060 | Here's 8,000.

02:17:35.900 | Here's six.

02:17:36.720 | Here's nine.

02:17:37.560 | And had them go into all these different bank accounts,

02:17:38.760 | pulling out cash.

02:17:39.840 | But this is like a Thursday at four o'clock.

02:17:42.120 | So the next day they show up with cash,

02:17:44.240 | write some more checks.

02:17:45.120 | They go again.

02:17:46.480 | I get about 80 grand in cash.

02:17:47.800 | That's all I can get.

02:17:50.360 | I go home that night, I start packing my bags,

02:17:55.120 | and I was dating this chick named Rebecca Houck.

02:17:58.720 | We'd been dating about a month.

02:18:00.560 | And she shows up at my house.

02:18:04.240 | You know, I hadn't returned her phone calls all day,

02:18:06.200 | and apparently we were supposed to go out,

02:18:07.240 | and I'd forgotten about it.

02:18:08.080 | I had bigger issues.

02:18:09.280 | And so I'm packing a couple of duffel bags,

02:18:12.600 | and she walks in and she's like, "What's going on?"

02:18:14.400 | I'm like, "I'm leaving."

02:18:17.320 | "Where are you going?

02:18:18.160 | I thought we were supposed to go out at such

02:18:19.120 | and go do something tonight."

02:18:20.240 | I'm like, "I'm leaving, it's over."

02:18:22.800 | And she says, "What happened?"

02:18:24.240 | I tell her what happened.

02:18:25.080 | This is what happened.

02:18:25.920 | She's like, "Oh my God."

02:18:28.040 | Like she had no idea.

02:18:29.440 | - Well, she had no idea about anything you were doing.

02:18:31.080 | - No, I barely knew her.

02:18:32.760 | Like, I mean, she's coming over two,

02:18:34.240 | three times a week for a month.

02:18:35.920 | Like I've, you know, this isn't love.

02:18:38.840 | This isn't, you know, this is a booty call.

02:18:42.440 | That's all it is.

02:18:43.280 | Like we're hanging out, we're having sex, and that's it.

02:18:45.320 | I don't even know you.

02:18:46.400 | So she suddenly just begs to come with me.

02:18:51.400 | "You gotta bring me with you.

02:18:54.240 | You have to do this, you have to do that."

02:18:55.320 | I'm like, "What are you talking about?"

02:18:57.160 | Like, "You've got a son.

02:19:00.640 | You have, your mom lives here.

02:19:03.440 | And she's just in tears and crying."

02:19:06.040 | And she suddenly said, and this is what's so funny about it.

02:19:08.360 | She had just moved from Vegas to St. Petersburg

02:19:15.280 | to work at the dog track,

02:19:16.440 | to work for a company that owned the dog track, right?

02:19:19.680 | A casino interest, or yeah, like a gambling company.

02:19:24.240 | And she said, "You don't even know why I'm here."

02:19:28.120 | I was like, "Okay, why are you here?"

02:19:30.840 | She said, "I'm here because I was working for a law firm

02:19:34.480 | that worked for the casino company that I worked for."

02:19:38.680 | She said, "I got caught embezzling nothing.

02:19:43.000 | It was like 10 or $15,000 from my boss."

02:19:45.500 | 'Cause she had a gambling habit.

02:19:48.640 | And she said, "He didn't call the police

02:19:52.060 | because we were sleeping together

02:19:53.240 | and he was afraid his wife would find out."

02:19:55.400 | She said, "So instead, he banished me here to St. Pete.

02:20:00.400 | My son just came to live with me.

02:20:03.520 | He's been caught sneaking out."

02:20:06.000 | 'Cause the father had raised him.

02:20:08.160 | He'd only been living with her since she got to Florida.

02:20:10.520 | And she's like, "I was gonna send him back.

02:20:12.620 | He's failing school.

02:20:13.480 | He's smoking pot.

02:20:14.320 | He's been caught sneaking out after curfew."

02:20:16.320 | I'm like, "Okay, I don't know any of this."

02:20:18.560 | She's like, "He was going back in December."

02:20:20.600 | No, he was going back after the school year,

02:20:22.740 | which would have been like May.

02:20:24.680 | "Okay."

02:20:25.520 | And I'm like, "So where before, five minutes earlier,

02:20:30.240 | I thought she was this sweet secretary,

02:20:34.160 | sweet, innocent secretary."

02:20:35.980 | And she's like, "I've been married three times.

02:20:40.600 | I am a gambler.

02:20:42.360 | I've blamed bankruptcy.

02:20:44.400 | I'm sleeping with my old boss."

02:20:46.560 | I got like, she went from this thieving adulteress,

02:20:50.680 | and I thought, "These are all really beneficial

02:20:56.360 | to my future plans."

02:20:59.680 | And I shouldn't have, at that moment,

02:21:01.840 | I was so just flipped out and concerned.

02:21:06.120 | And up and leaving your life

02:21:09.000 | and everything you know behind,

02:21:12.240 | that's terrifying.

02:21:13.600 | And so now you're alone in a strange place.

02:21:16.960 | - Is that the first time you've done something like that,

02:21:19.000 | like leave to go on the road?

02:21:21.000 | - Yes.

02:21:22.040 | So I never just up and moved.

02:21:23.600 | And keep in mind now I can't call home.

02:21:25.500 | I can't, like I'm leaving.

02:21:27.080 | There are things that I feel like get you caught.

02:21:29.640 | And I've watched tons of these TV shows.

02:21:31.760 | And there are certain things that get you caught.

02:21:34.280 | And one of them is keeping in contact

02:21:35.920 | with anybody in your old life.

02:21:38.080 | So I'm thinking that's not gonna happen.

02:21:41.600 | Like I'm not contacting anybody.

02:21:42.960 | I'm leaving and that's it.

02:21:43.920 | That didn't really happen.

02:21:44.740 | I kept in touch.

02:21:45.580 | I called my mom every once in a while.

02:21:46.440 | But I was like, "Okay, that's cool."

02:21:51.440 | - Did the loneliness of that hit you early on or no?

02:21:55.520 | Like as you're packing?

02:21:56.880 | - I never did.

02:21:57.720 | Well.

02:21:58.560 | - You're leaving your life.

02:22:00.880 | I mean, there's a, it feels like a fundamental transition.

02:22:04.920 | - Oh, listen.

02:22:05.760 | - You think?

02:22:07.720 | - I mean, it was not just that.

02:22:09.480 | Like I'm leaving my son.

02:22:11.720 | I have a son.

02:22:13.400 | And I was leaving everything.

02:22:15.960 | I was just terrified of going to prison.

02:22:19.000 | And I mean, I don't know, it was just so stupid.

02:22:23.160 | It was just arrogance.

02:22:24.000 | And I should have stayed.

02:22:25.960 | Like I made things so much worse.

02:22:28.040 | But I also thought, I'm smart.

02:22:31.460 | I can figure this out.

02:22:34.480 | Like I can change my identity, blend in, I'll be fine.

02:22:37.480 | - Aren't you already, like people know

02:22:39.200 | what your face looks like?

02:22:40.480 | - They do, they do.

02:22:41.440 | But one of the first things I did was I got plastic surgery.

02:22:44.360 | - What kind of plastic surgery?

02:22:45.640 | - I've got a nose job.

02:22:47.560 | I got what they call a mini facelift.

02:22:49.760 | They go in through the back of your ears

02:22:52.200 | and they suck out all the fat in your neck.

02:22:54.360 | - Does that change your appearance much?

02:22:56.120 | - Yeah, a little bit.

02:22:57.880 | I got, I was balding.

02:22:59.560 | I got two hair transplants, you know, two hair grafts.

02:23:02.520 | So the hair in my head, this isn't my hair.

02:23:04.600 | It's my hair, but it's from back here.

02:23:06.640 | So there's, they cut it from here.

02:23:08.120 | - Oh, this is great.

02:23:08.960 | - I appreciate it.

02:23:10.640 | So they re-implanted it there, you know,

02:23:13.000 | got liposuction, just some, you know, other stuff.

02:23:15.440 | And, you know, got my teeth done, that sort of thing.

02:23:18.280 | You know, so, you know, and I,

02:23:21.360 | that was kind of like my plan.

02:23:22.760 | I'll go, I'll take off.

02:23:23.720 | I got 80 grand.

02:23:24.560 | I'll steal some more money, you know.

02:23:26.720 | But I let her come with me and we ran up all my credit cards

02:23:31.240 | over the next few days, packed up the car,

02:23:33.800 | traded in my Audi and got like an Audi.

02:23:37.480 | I don't know, was it like an A6 or like a Ford

02:23:39.400 | or like the big Ford or whatever it was.

02:23:42.040 | Got that and drove straight to Atlanta.

02:23:46.720 | And so I wrote a letter to my parents before I left,

02:23:53.200 | just explaining this is what's happening.

02:23:56.480 | I'm leaving, I'm done.

02:23:58.120 | I'm not going to prison.

02:23:59.320 | Love you.

02:24:02.160 | Sorry.

02:24:03.120 | - Sorry.

02:24:03.960 | - Sorry.

02:24:04.800 | Sorry, I'm, I know I'm a disappointment.

02:24:06.320 | Sorry.

02:24:07.400 | Bam.

02:24:08.720 | So I take off, go to Atlanta.

02:24:12.920 | When we went to Atlanta, I already had the name

02:24:18.680 | of a guy named Scott Kugnow that I'd done a loan for.

02:24:23.680 | So I had his, you know, his vital information, right?

02:24:31.360 | Like I have his name, date of birth, social security number,

02:24:34.120 | mother's maiden name and where he was born.

02:24:36.320 | One day we were having a conversation

02:24:38.560 | and I just slowly pried all that out of him, right?

02:24:42.480 | Like I already, we'd done a loan for him.

02:24:43.920 | So I had his name, date of birth, social security number,

02:24:47.200 | but I need to steal his identity.

02:24:49.520 | I need to know where he was born and his mother's maiden name.

02:24:53.000 | So through the course of a conversation, I just pried,

02:24:55.920 | you know, hey, you know, Kugnow, is that, you know,

02:24:58.600 | what is that?

02:24:59.420 | Is that like Irish?

02:25:00.260 | Is it, no, it's such and such.

02:25:01.080 | What's your mom's name?

02:25:02.120 | Oh, such and such.

02:25:02.960 | Oh, okay.

02:25:04.200 | - Yeah.

02:25:05.040 | - You know, oh, were you born here?

02:25:06.640 | You born in, weren't you from, oh man, I was born here.

02:25:09.280 | I was born in such, oh, it all broke out on me.

02:25:12.000 | You know, like I, so it was no big deal.

02:25:14.600 | We get to Atlanta.

02:25:16.240 | I make a fake ID for both of us, but keep in mind,

02:25:18.400 | I don't have, like I don't have a driver's license.

02:25:21.600 | I do, but they're fake.

02:25:23.480 | Like I can't give this to a cop.

02:25:25.800 | Can't give a driver's license that says David Freeman.

02:25:28.520 | - What's David's residence, Florida, or is this Georgia?

02:25:31.240 | - No, this is Florida, but it was just a made-up name.

02:25:34.120 | I'd gone to like high school with a kid named David Freeman.

02:25:37.900 | So I had an ID, but I can't give that to a cop.

02:25:41.260 | Like that's enough to get like rent a place

02:25:43.080 | or do something.

02:25:44.320 | So we go, go to Atlanta, make an ID, set it up,

02:25:49.320 | make some business cards, set up a couple of websites,

02:25:54.200 | set up some, get an HQ, which is that like a,

02:25:58.880 | it's a company that will, you can do virtual,

02:26:01.000 | you can rent offices and they'll answer your phone

02:26:03.880 | for like a hundred bucks a month and they'll forward them.

02:26:06.160 | So it seems like you have an office.

02:26:08.040 | They'll, you know, they give you a phone number

02:26:09.360 | that you call up and they say, you know,

02:26:11.000 | hi, United Southern Bank, you know,

02:26:12.920 | and they'll answer the phone and forward messages.

02:26:15.000 | So we get one of those, make a business card for Becky.

02:26:19.960 | She rents a house from a guy named Michael Shanahan.

02:26:24.800 | So we rent Michael Shanahan's house.

02:26:26.480 | It's like $200,000, $200,000 house in Alpharetta.

02:26:29.900 | And I then go to Alabama, wait,

02:26:35.200 | I then order Scott Cugno's birth certificate,

02:26:39.360 | social security card.

02:26:41.000 | I think I registered a vote in his name

02:26:45.360 | and I made a lease agreement in his name.

02:26:49.600 | And I think that's all I needed.

02:26:53.040 | And then I went to Alabama

02:26:55.600 | and got a driver's license in his name.

02:26:57.720 | So I went into DMV, give him all these documents

02:27:00.640 | and which are almost all of them are real,

02:27:04.000 | except for the lease.

02:27:05.320 | They said, sit over there.

02:27:06.360 | I sit over there, I sit down, boom.

02:27:08.760 | 20 minutes later, I have a driver's license.

02:27:10.320 | It's, you know, it was 20 something dollars.

02:27:11.760 | It was nothing.

02:27:12.600 | So I get the driver's license.

02:27:13.560 | Now I'm driving this, I'm still driving a car

02:27:15.040 | that an Audi that is in the name of Matt Cox.

02:27:18.560 | So I parked that.

02:27:20.200 | I then go get social security

02:27:23.960 | to issue me a social security number

02:27:25.900 | in the name Scott Cugno.

02:27:27.920 | And I then turn around and I go and I get a loan.

02:27:30.000 | You put down 20, 30%.

02:27:31.840 | There's all these first time or first time buyers.

02:27:34.480 | 30% down, get like a Honda or something.

02:27:38.480 | So now we're living in a house.

02:27:39.760 | We've got some furniture, bedroom furniture.

02:27:42.200 | And I go downtown, I pull the title to this guy,

02:27:45.360 | Michael Shanahan's house.

02:27:48.040 | And I go downtown and I satisfy the loan on his house.

02:27:54.480 | So he had two loans with Bank of America.

02:27:59.020 | And so I create two satisfaction of loans

02:28:03.360 | from Bank of America.

02:28:04.960 | So Michael Shanahan owns a house

02:28:08.440 | in the name Michael Shanahan.

02:28:09.520 | He has one mortgage with Bank of America and a second one.

02:28:12.420 | When you pay your mortgage off,

02:28:15.760 | the way public records knows it's paid off

02:28:18.520 | is they mail public records a satisfaction of mortgage.

02:28:23.520 | It's a one page document and it's notarized.

02:28:25.900 | - So you've got two of those.

02:28:28.440 | - I filled out two, I created two of them.

02:28:30.640 | I just ordered, you can do research.

02:28:33.640 | So when I went downtown,

02:28:35.680 | I researched Bank of America satisfaction of mortgages

02:28:39.960 | and thousands show up.

02:28:41.660 | So I just grab a couple of them

02:28:42.960 | and now I know what the basic template is.

02:28:44.880 | And they're all different by the way.

02:28:46.240 | So it's not like you even have to be that close,

02:28:49.540 | but whatever, I mimicked some of them.

02:28:52.200 | I had a notary stamp, not hard to get.

02:28:55.360 | You go in and you go into three different office depots

02:29:00.360 | and you say, "Hey, I need a notary stamp."

02:29:04.540 | And you give them the information

02:29:06.040 | and you come back four day or whatever,

02:29:07.680 | a week later and they give it to you.

02:29:09.640 | So I've got these notary stamps.

02:29:12.080 | So I notarize the satisfactions.

02:29:13.840 | I go downtown, I file them, boom, the mortgages are gone.

02:29:17.440 | Keep in mind Bank of America,

02:29:18.600 | he's still paying the mortgages.

02:29:19.880 | They don't know that they've been satisfied

02:29:21.480 | in public records, they're not notified.

02:29:23.720 | So those are gone, but it takes about a month or two

02:29:26.320 | for it to show up.

02:29:27.160 | Atlanta was that far behind.

02:29:29.640 | I think it was Fulton County, they were just way behind.

02:29:31.960 | So we just kind of have to dick around for a while, right?

02:29:35.020 | So we're going on little vacations.

02:29:36.980 | We're going to New Orleans.

02:29:38.540 | We're going to different places.

02:29:41.300 | As Scott Kugno, driving a car, Scott Kugno.

02:29:46.100 | We open up several bank accounts.

02:29:47.460 | We have multiple bank accounts.

02:29:49.260 | And then we end up going to Vegas.

02:29:52.620 | And we do go to Vegas,

02:29:54.660 | but what happened was we were driving around

02:29:55.980 | and I remember thinking, telling her,

02:29:58.100 | I was like, "You know, this is a problem.

02:30:00.460 | We have to get real IDs, real driver's licenses.

02:30:04.800 | I mean, this is real, but this is a real person too.

02:30:06.940 | And he may stumble across it."

02:30:08.480 | And so what I did was I started running ads in magazines

02:30:13.240 | saying home loans available, good credit, bad credit,

02:30:18.120 | no problem, call now, government loans,

02:30:20.600 | government, VA, FHA, fine, call this number.

02:30:25.520 | So people start calling and I'm getting their information.

02:30:29.160 | And one of the guys I got was Michael Eckert.

02:30:32.660 | Yeah, I remember, Michael Eckert, poor Michael Eckert.

02:30:36.000 | I actually legally changed his name

02:30:39.460 | to Michael Johnson at one point,

02:30:41.060 | but at this point it was just Michael Eckert.

02:30:43.420 | So I don't, I wanted to see, you know, I'm bored.

02:30:48.420 | I want to see what the process is.

02:30:49.740 | How much does it cost?

02:30:51.020 | Is this possible?

02:30:52.020 | Let me see if I can change this guy's name.

02:30:53.940 | It was 1,500 bucks, I changed it.

02:30:56.260 | Without him ever showing up anywhere.

02:30:57.940 | So you can--

02:30:59.200 | - Well, I have a driver's license in his name.

02:31:00.760 | - Right. - I am him.

02:31:02.100 | So he did show up.

02:31:02.940 | He showed up at the lawyer's office, he, so, you know.

02:31:06.400 | - Right.

02:31:07.240 | - So I'm, so I do that.

02:31:10.080 | I'm living in the house and we're driving along one day

02:31:15.080 | and I'm saying, "Man, we gotta get real."

02:31:18.800 | Like these people that are calling,

02:31:20.400 | like that one guy I get his information,

02:31:23.440 | but during the course of taking the application

02:31:25.460 | and I'm asking like these government survey questions

02:31:28.480 | at the very end, it's like 20 questions

02:31:30.520 | and I'm rambling them off.

02:31:32.360 | And at some point he was like, he said, he volunteered.

02:31:35.400 | Like I didn't know, I never even asked anybody

02:31:37.240 | about criminal history and he just,

02:31:39.040 | he ended up saying something.

02:31:40.760 | "Well, I do have a felony.

02:31:42.200 | "Does that matter?"

02:31:43.040 | I mean, he's like, he was, I mean, it was a DUI.

02:31:44.840 | I've had a couple DUIs, but I got my license back

02:31:47.160 | and that was part of the reason he had bad credit.

02:31:49.240 | And it was like, okay, no, no, it doesn't matter.

02:31:53.200 | Don't worry, I'm thinking, you're not getting a loan.

02:31:55.080 | So this is, I'm just taking your,

02:31:56.420 | I'm just stealing from you, stealing your information.

02:31:58.480 | So I get all this information, I'm gathering it.

02:32:01.800 | And so one of the things I said to Becky

02:32:04.160 | while we were sitting at this stoplight is I'm like,

02:32:06.600 | we gotta get real, people's real information.

02:32:10.440 | And I said like, for instance, I said,

02:32:11.760 | what if I steal somebody's identity?

02:32:13.040 | I get a driver's license in his name,

02:32:15.040 | four states from where he lives and he gets a DUI.

02:32:18.080 | I could get pulled over two years later

02:32:20.480 | and get arrested for a DUI that he got in Florida.

02:32:24.320 | And she's like, well, what are you thinking?

02:32:26.560 | Are you thinking like criminals

02:32:28.120 | or are you thinking like prisoners, like mental patients?

02:32:32.040 | Like, and I went, I mean, I don't,

02:32:33.960 | and I looked over and there was a homeless guy

02:32:36.160 | holding a sign and I went like that guy.

02:32:40.220 | And I remember she goes, she's the hobo?

02:32:42.800 | Like, I don't know who calls them hobos.

02:32:44.760 | And she's like, the hobo?

02:32:45.960 | I said, yes, that guy.

02:32:48.880 | I said, hold on, pulled over to a subway, got out.

02:32:52.120 | She went inside to get subway.

02:32:53.400 | I walk across the street, pulled out like 20 bucks.

02:32:56.800 | And I said, hey bro,

02:32:57.640 | can I ask you some quick questions real quick?

02:32:58.920 | He's like, yeah, what's up?

02:33:00.120 | And I go, here's 20 bucks.

02:33:01.060 | I said, listen, I said,

02:33:04.360 | when was the last time you were gainfully employed?

02:33:06.280 | He's like, ah, whatever, 10 years.

02:33:09.440 | I'm like, oh, okay.

02:33:10.760 | Do you have a criminal record?

02:33:12.200 | He's like, ah, I've been arrested in misdemeanors,

02:33:14.280 | like, you know, vagrancy.

02:33:16.240 | And he names off some things, you know,

02:33:17.600 | drunk in public, whatever.

02:33:19.000 | And I was like, are you on probation?

02:33:20.080 | He goes, I can't, I can't, I can't do probation.

02:33:23.320 | They don't give us probation.

02:33:24.200 | They keep us for 90 days.

02:33:25.720 | They release us.

02:33:26.960 | Like the judge knows I can't do,

02:33:29.080 | I'm not gonna show up for a probation.

02:33:30.960 | I'm like, okay, do you have a driver's license?

02:33:32.760 | He's like, maybe, I don't think so.

02:33:35.100 | I think it's just, I go, is it DUI?

02:33:37.800 | He's like, no, I think it's just expired.

02:33:40.120 | Do you have a driver's license with you?

02:33:41.320 | He's like, no, I got nothing.

02:33:43.360 | I'm like, okay, well, you know.

02:33:44.840 | He told me he lived in like a tent in the woods.

02:33:47.520 | And so I give him like another 20 bucks,

02:33:51.260 | asked him a few more questions.

02:33:53.100 | And then, oh, and I remember in the middle of it,

02:33:57.560 | he said, he goes, what, are you taking a survey or something?

02:34:00.720 | And I remember thinking, I go, I kind of chuckled.

02:34:04.600 | I go, you get a lot of surveyors out here like that?

02:34:06.840 | And he goes, yeah, sometimes.

02:34:08.580 | And I was like, really?

02:34:09.600 | He goes, yeah, he said like the,

02:34:11.200 | he said people from like halfway houses

02:34:15.480 | and what do you say, social workers and stuff,

02:34:20.160 | they'll come out and they'll pass out stuff

02:34:22.400 | and they'll ask us questions and stuff.

02:34:23.740 | And I'm like, oh, okay.

02:34:25.180 | And I was like, I thought, that's good to know.

02:34:27.260 | So I go back, I get, grab Becky and she's like,

02:34:31.440 | oh, she's like, did you give him money?

02:34:32.860 | I said, I gave him like 40 or 60 bucks or something.

02:34:35.460 | Forget what.

02:34:36.300 | And she was like, that's, what a waste of money.

02:34:37.500 | I thought it was good.

02:34:38.340 | That was money well spent.

02:34:40.180 | I said, that guy's perfect.

02:34:42.380 | I said, that guy is, he's got everything.

02:34:47.180 | He has no way to be contacted.

02:34:48.780 | He has no documentation on him.

02:34:51.460 | I said, he's not gonna drive a car.

02:34:53.840 | He's not gonna get a DUI.

02:34:54.920 | He has an expired license.

02:34:56.320 | I just have to get his license reinstated and I can be him.

02:34:59.660 | So I went home, I typed up a,

02:35:03.000 | what I called a federal statistical survey form.

02:35:06.120 | And I made a little thing.

02:35:07.040 | I mean, I went online.

02:35:08.120 | I mean, I'm always filling out federal documents

02:35:10.240 | as a mortgage broker.

02:35:11.080 | So it looked identical.

02:35:12.240 | I mean, I had like this little, like the recycle symbol

02:35:15.800 | and it was like, you know, federal form 17-0-17,

02:35:18.560 | you know, and so I print out these forms.

02:35:22.900 | I go buy a clipboard.

02:35:25.020 | I make a little Salvation Army ID.

02:35:27.860 | I pin it on me and I go out and I start--

02:35:31.660 | - Doing surveys.

02:35:32.580 | - I start surveying homeless people.

02:35:34.380 | Don't judge me, bro.

02:35:35.420 | I was in a bad spot.

02:35:36.900 | I was in a bad spot.

02:35:38.060 | I see the judgment.

02:35:40.260 | I see the judgment.

02:35:41.920 | Let's maintain civility here.

02:35:43.900 | Like stay neutral, stay neutral.

02:35:46.380 | - So these homeless guys, I mean,

02:35:47.920 | they have a social security number.

02:35:50.720 | They have a birth certificate, I guess.

02:35:53.940 | I mean, they're a real person.

02:35:55.200 | - Right, they're perfect. - They're a real person.

02:35:56.040 | - They're just not using their real person.

02:35:58.000 | - Yeah, they're not actively engaging

02:36:00.000 | with the economic system, the financial system.

02:36:03.680 | They're not employed, they don't have housing,

02:36:06.720 | all that kind of stuff.

02:36:07.560 | - Yeah, they don't file taxes, they don't.

02:36:09.640 | So one of the questions I even asked the guy,

02:36:13.520 | one of the last questions I said,

02:36:15.620 | "Do you believe that you will be gainfully employed

02:36:18.060 | "within the next two years?"

02:36:20.540 | Every one of them said, "No, no, no."

02:36:23.420 | So it was like, okay, they're not even trying.

02:36:26.820 | And they all had alcohol problems.

02:36:28.500 | Or honestly, the few of them I talked to,

02:36:30.220 | like it was pretty clear.

02:36:31.820 | I mean, it takes literally five minutes,

02:36:34.340 | less than five minutes to fill out the form.

02:36:35.780 | And I filled it out for them, of course.

02:36:38.200 | But even filling it out in that brief,

02:36:40.100 | just asking questions back and forth,

02:36:42.900 | half of them you could tell you've got some mental illness,

02:36:45.220 | like something's not right with you.

02:36:46.620 | Like these aren't guys that are gonna go out

02:36:47.940 | and get, are going to get jobs.

02:36:49.700 | They're not cleaning up.

02:36:50.800 | So they were perfect for my purposes,

02:36:53.660 | as horrible as I know that sounds.

02:36:56.580 | - Do you feel bad about this little, small tangent?

02:36:59.900 | - No.

02:37:01.420 | Do I feel bad about it?

02:37:02.900 | - The homeless people in society are really,

02:37:05.900 | it's a difficult life, like dealing with mental illness,

02:37:09.140 | dealing with drug addiction, all that kind of stuff.

02:37:11.860 | I mean, being in prison,

02:37:13.860 | and then the people that are in prison

02:37:16.140 | that are going to be homeless, or have been homeless,

02:37:19.820 | or the mental illness that I've dealt with

02:37:22.020 | in halfway houses, and even doing this.

02:37:24.740 | I don't know what you do with these people.

02:37:27.540 | I don't even know that you house them.

02:37:29.300 | You can't necessarily even house them together.

02:37:32.260 | They cause such problems.

02:37:34.260 | Like, I don't know what the solution is,

02:37:37.380 | other than just kind of keeping them fed, maybe,

02:37:40.600 | and keep them away from normal people,

02:37:45.380 | so they don't cause crime, or whatever.

02:37:47.180 | I don't know about housing them in one area.

02:37:48.860 | That seems like a mistake.

02:37:50.720 | There is absolutely no good solution to that problem, none.

02:37:55.660 | Because it's not like, hey, if we gave you a house,

02:37:58.500 | and we gave you job training, and we gave you this,

02:38:00.380 | okay, you might get 5%, 10,

02:38:04.100 | but most of them are on the street

02:38:05.420 | because they've just messed up over, and over,

02:38:08.100 | and over again, and they just kinda gave up.

02:38:10.520 | - But, you know, I guess we still have to remember

02:38:12.920 | that they're human beings.

02:38:14.120 | I mean, we mentioned off mic, Soft White Underbelly.

02:38:16.920 | He highlights the humanity of people

02:38:20.680 | who've had a real difficult life.

02:38:22.720 | He does it well.

02:38:23.840 | - He's, Mark Leda is amazing.

02:38:27.600 | He's amazing.

02:38:28.520 | And one of the things he had said was,

02:38:30.340 | like, these are, he was like, these are real people,

02:38:33.000 | and he's like, they're stories.

02:38:34.620 | He's like, they have stories, and they need, you know.

02:38:37.200 | But if you also talk to Mark, he'll tell ya,

02:38:40.580 | you can't just, you can't give him money.

02:38:42.340 | You can't, like, you can't, like, he's tried,

02:38:45.220 | every time he's reached out and tried to help these guys,

02:38:48.860 | put 'em in apartments, fed them,

02:38:51.320 | got them back on their feet.

02:38:52.840 | Within six months, they're back on the street.

02:38:54.780 | I mean, it just happens over, and over, and over again.

02:38:58.100 | I mean, I think the amount of money

02:39:00.940 | that would have to be dumped into correcting that problem,

02:39:05.100 | I don't know.

02:39:06.820 | You can say, well, yeah, but just, you know,

02:39:09.440 | you should do it because it's the right thing to do.

02:39:11.920 | I don't know who's paying for it.

02:39:13.880 | - It's complicated, but for your purpose,

02:39:15.840 | they have a social security number.

02:39:18.280 | - They got 20 bucks, they seem very happy.

02:39:20.400 | - There you are with a clipboard, taking a survey.

02:39:22.760 | - Right, took a survey, went home, ordered their,

02:39:27.760 | and they, you know, of course they give me everything,

02:39:29.700 | name, date of birth, social security number,

02:39:32.180 | mother's maiden name, where they were born,

02:39:34.100 | have they ever been in the armed services,

02:39:36.420 | have they ever had a passport issued,

02:39:38.020 | what states have they had identification in,

02:39:39.980 | have they ever been arrested, they ever been on probation,

02:39:42.660 | have they ever claimed social security disability, SSI.

02:39:46.580 | I mean, I had like 17 questions

02:39:48.500 | and it absolutely answered everything.

02:39:50.340 | What high school did you go to?

02:39:51.780 | 'Cause high school transcripts are great for documentation.

02:39:54.260 | A lot of times they'll ask you for high school,

02:39:56.060 | you know, can you get us a copy

02:39:56.940 | of your high school transcripts?

02:39:58.020 | Like, that's a good deal.

02:39:59.420 | And I'm a big believer in overkill.

02:40:01.380 | So, I mean, I ordered a ton of stuff.

02:40:03.160 | If I needed three things to get a driver's license

02:40:07.320 | in your name, right?

02:40:09.040 | You know, I'd come in with like six.

02:40:11.160 | 'Cause what you do is you get in front of the guy at the DMV

02:40:14.480 | and you kind of fumble through like,

02:40:15.960 | oh, I got this, what else do you need?

02:40:18.040 | You know, I know exactly what you need.

02:40:19.800 | But, you know, they'll be like,

02:40:20.640 | oh, is that high school transcript?

02:40:21.840 | Yeah, I'll take that.

02:40:22.680 | And oh, voter's registration card, give me that.

02:40:25.560 | Yeah, that's, you're perfect, you're good.

02:40:26.640 | Sit down right over there.

02:40:28.280 | That's it.

02:40:29.120 | - Who's, by the way, lurking in the shadows

02:40:31.580 | trying to catch you?

02:40:32.840 | You mentioned FBI, Secret Service.

02:40:35.400 | You mentioned, I think I've heard you mention

02:40:38.160 | U.S. Marshals, which is interesting.

02:40:40.160 | Cops, in general, the police, CIA.

02:40:42.480 | I guess CIA is international only?

02:40:44.680 | FBI is internal?

02:40:45.800 | - Yes.

02:40:46.640 | - Okay, well, so who is, when you're doing this,

02:40:49.340 | who are you afraid of?

02:40:52.320 | - So, by the time I've gotten to Atlanta,

02:40:54.840 | within four or five days, the FBI raided my office.

02:40:58.680 | I guess I kind of missed that.

02:40:59.960 | - Back in Florida?

02:41:00.960 | - Back in Florida.

02:41:01.800 | When I left and drove to Atlanta and left,

02:41:05.040 | remember, the FBI was gonna show up a few days later.

02:41:08.000 | They were gonna arrest me.

02:41:08.840 | - And they did?

02:41:09.660 | - They did.

02:41:10.500 | They showed up like I left on a Sunday night or something.

02:41:13.000 | Because for some reason, my stupid thought,

02:41:16.680 | I thought, well, they won't arrest me on the weekend.

02:41:18.960 | Like, they don't work on the weekends.

02:41:20.800 | So they came on like a, whatever it was,

02:41:22.520 | like a Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday.

02:41:24.320 | Like, within a few days, they come in the office,

02:41:26.240 | they raid it, they're looking for me.

02:41:28.040 | But I'm gone.

02:41:28.960 | Nobody knows where I am.

02:41:30.580 | And so now I'm surveying the homeless guys

02:41:33.760 | and I turn around and I'm ordering their documents.

02:41:36.720 | And as their documents are showing up,

02:41:38.620 | you know, I'm going to different states and getting IDs.

02:41:45.160 | So I'm going to Florida.

02:41:48.720 | So over the course of this whole thing,

02:41:50.520 | I've had 27 driver's licenses in like seven different states.

02:41:55.520 | I've had two dozen passports.

02:41:58.760 | Because if you're going to get the driver's license

02:42:00.740 | in the guy's name, you might as well get, or an ID even,

02:42:04.340 | you might as well get a passport.

02:42:06.300 | 'Cause a passport's not difficult to get.

02:42:08.400 | They don't fingerprint you.

02:42:09.980 | You know, all they're doing is saying,

02:42:11.900 | "This is your ID and were you born here?"

02:42:13.900 | And then they run a check.

02:42:15.140 | And if it comes back or it doesn't.

02:42:17.660 | Back then you could do it expedited

02:42:19.140 | and I'd have it in like two weeks.

02:42:20.540 | Like now it takes like 90 days

02:42:22.340 | or 60 to 90 days to get one.

02:42:24.180 | - And if you have multiple IDs for a single identity,

02:42:26.700 | that's more proof.

02:42:27.900 | - Right.

02:42:29.300 | - So wait, what number did you say?

02:42:31.040 | How many IDs, how many identities?

02:42:34.760 | - Well, I've had over 50 identities,

02:42:36.360 | but I've had 27 driver's licenses issued

02:42:40.840 | from state DMVs, Department of Motor Vehicles.

02:42:44.740 | - So like legitimately.

02:42:45.680 | - Legitimately.

02:42:46.520 | I walked into the DMV, said, "Hi, my name's Michael Eckert.

02:42:51.420 | "And I just moved here about three weeks ago,

02:42:54.180 | "four weeks ago, here's my lease."

02:42:57.000 | And I lost my driver's license, bro.

02:43:00.300 | Like, I don't know what I did with it.

02:43:01.300 | I don't know what happened, I don't know.

02:43:02.920 | And they're like, "It's all right, what do you have?

02:43:05.140 | "I need a proof of residency."

02:43:06.760 | "Well, I have my lease."

02:43:07.700 | "Oh, okay."

02:43:09.200 | "I need a primary, okay, here's my birth certificate."

02:43:13.620 | "Okay, and I need a secondary.

02:43:16.340 | "Here's my social security card."

02:43:17.900 | But I also registered, I registered to vote.

02:43:20.860 | My girlfriend made me vote immediately

02:43:23.000 | and she said I wouldn't need it.

02:43:23.840 | "Oh yeah, it's perfect, you're good.

02:43:26.060 | "I don't even need that."

02:43:27.340 | "Okay, great, stand over there.

02:43:29.280 | "Pay that person, they call your number, 275."

02:43:32.180 | You know, 45 minutes later, you go, you pay your 25 bucks,

02:43:35.560 | you stand in front of the screen, they take a picture,

02:43:37.780 | you got a driver's license.

02:43:38.700 | You walk out, it's still warm, it's beautiful.

02:43:40.940 | It smells like hot plastic, it's amazing.

02:43:43.820 | And so I'm opening up different bank accounts

02:43:48.820 | in these guys' names.

02:43:51.520 | And just about--

02:43:53.700 | - Yeah, sorry, well, what are you mostly doing

02:43:55.180 | with the identities?

02:43:56.020 | You're opening up different bank accounts.

02:43:57.660 | - Right now-- - Are you doing credit,

02:43:59.900 | starting to establish credit or no?

02:44:01.460 | - Some of them.

02:44:02.540 | Like I might order, I might order secured credit cards.

02:44:07.540 | So I can't get credit, you know, I'm building their credit.

02:44:11.420 | Like it's not helping me in any way.

02:44:12.780 | I'm just sending out $500 to get a Capital One card

02:44:16.780 | or a American, I'm sorry, a Bank of America

02:44:20.060 | secured credit card, whatever.

02:44:22.020 | So I'm building their credits.

02:44:24.820 | But not all of them, only a few,

02:44:26.860 | because although I'm collecting them,

02:44:29.540 | I'm also gonna be moving soon.

02:44:32.020 | I'm only here to get a few hundred thousand dollars

02:44:34.140 | and move, I need some kind of a base.

02:44:36.940 | So I don't wanna start getting credit cards

02:44:38.900 | and building up a history in Atlanta in anybody's name.

02:44:43.780 | But I am getting driver's licenses in other states.

02:44:47.100 | So I've been at like North Carolina, South Carolina.

02:44:49.860 | - What's the primary method of income here

02:44:52.420 | when you move to a place, South Carolina,

02:44:55.180 | how do you make a hundred thousand at this time?

02:44:57.980 | - Right now I'm living in this guy's house

02:44:59.460 | and I satisfied his loans.

02:45:00.980 | The house is worth 200,000.

02:45:03.060 | So what happens is one day we go

02:45:05.020 | and we check public records.

02:45:06.780 | Remember I told you it takes months for it to show up

02:45:09.020 | and it shows up.

02:45:10.380 | He's got no mortgages on the house.

02:45:12.540 | So now I turn around and I make a fake ID

02:45:16.020 | in the name Michael Shanahan.

02:45:19.620 | And I'm living in his house, but I have no credit, right?

02:45:22.740 | There's no credit.

02:45:24.100 | So I've got a social security number

02:45:29.100 | and I order some secured credit cards in his name.

02:45:32.980 | So if you pull that credit profile,

02:45:36.180 | it shows up saying he's got some credit cards,

02:45:38.880 | but they're only a month or two old.

02:45:41.060 | So I can't go to like Bank of America.

02:45:43.220 | I mean, I could, but I needed to get the money

02:45:48.220 | as quick as possible.

02:45:49.420 | I wanna get out of Atlanta.

02:45:50.860 | So, and at this point, by the way,

02:45:53.540 | there's multiple articles showing up in Tampa.

02:45:58.500 | So the St. Petersburg Times

02:46:00.100 | is writing multiple articles about me.

02:46:03.820 | - With your face.

02:46:04.740 | - With my picture, yeah.

02:46:06.300 | But it's honestly, it's pre, I mean, not pre-internet,

02:46:08.820 | but it's post-internet, but it's in its infancy.

02:46:11.460 | Like nobody's, it's not huge.

02:46:13.500 | And honestly, it's a local newspaper in Tampa.

02:46:19.140 | It's not that big of a deal.

02:46:20.060 | Like I'm not concerned about that so much at this point.

02:46:23.100 | What I'm concerned about is getting a chunk of money

02:46:25.180 | and just moving on and kind of reestablishing ourselves

02:46:27.460 | in a better way where we're not living in a building

02:46:30.660 | that we're going to be committing fraud in with our house.

02:46:34.700 | So, but I'm living in this place.

02:46:37.100 | I make a fake ID in the name Michael Shanahan

02:46:39.420 | and I call up three secured, or sorry,

02:46:43.940 | three hard money lenders.

02:46:45.900 | A hard money lender is a guy that lends his own money

02:46:49.300 | or other investors' money on property.

02:46:53.140 | Kind of like a bank, but he's lending his own money

02:46:55.940 | so he doesn't have to really meet the banking requirements.

02:46:59.460 | And he can charge a much higher interest rate.

02:47:01.420 | These guys are charging 12, 13% interest, simple interest.

02:47:05.300 | And they're only lending you a much lower percentage

02:47:09.300 | of the value of your home.

02:47:11.580 | So they're not lending you 90% of the value.

02:47:13.660 | They're lending you 65%, 60%.

02:47:17.100 | So I call three of these guys.

02:47:19.180 | They all come out to the house at different times.

02:47:21.460 | And each one of them says, "I'll lend you 100,000,"

02:47:25.140 | or it's like 150,000, 150.

02:47:26.860 | Like they all lend roughly 150,000.

02:47:28.740 | So we schedule three separate closings.

02:47:33.300 | None of them know about the other person.

02:47:35.780 | So what I do is I close one loan on, let's say Monday,

02:47:41.740 | and then one on Tuesday, and then one on whatever,

02:47:44.500 | Wednesday or Thursday, or that may have all been

02:47:46.620 | the same day, to be honest, but I don't remember.

02:47:48.340 | The point is, I go to three separate title companies

02:47:51.900 | or real estate attorneys and we close.

02:47:55.100 | And I get checks for, you know, after costs and everything.

02:47:59.100 | The total ends up being roughly 400,000.

02:48:01.420 | So I've got 400,000.

02:48:04.180 | Becky and I run another scam in Tallahassee, Florida,

02:48:08.860 | and we get like 50 grand.

02:48:11.060 | And plus the 80, the 80 is dwindled down to close to nothing

02:48:14.860 | 'cause we had gone on several vacations.

02:48:16.720 | We went to like Bermuda, and I think we went to Jamaica.

02:48:20.300 | We actually stayed at the Ritz in Jamaica.

02:48:23.740 | So it was very nice.

02:48:25.820 | - You and Becky.

02:48:26.660 | So Becky turned out to be pretty good

02:48:29.140 | in terms of scams on the road.

02:48:30.500 | - No, she was useless.

02:48:31.620 | She was horrible.

02:48:33.140 | And she just spent money all the time.

02:48:34.920 | And what I realized too, very quickly, is she's bipolar.

02:48:40.180 | So she's bipolar and she's absolutely insane.

02:48:45.180 | She smokes pot all the time.

02:48:47.980 | - Did that matter for you personally

02:48:50.660 | or did it actually affect how good you were able

02:48:54.240 | to do these particular scams?

02:48:56.440 | - It was that she was the type of person

02:48:59.180 | that would start an argument at one o'clock in the morning

02:49:03.380 | and scream at the top of her lungs and get the cops called.

02:49:09.960 | So I can't have the police called.

02:49:12.020 | I can't get taken downtown and fingerprinted.

02:49:14.940 | I can't have the police showing up.

02:49:17.140 | I don't know who's really looking.

02:49:19.020 | We haven't had plastic surgery at this point.

02:49:21.860 | We're still pulling money together.

02:49:23.620 | - Oh, Becky.

02:49:27.580 | - Yeah, Becky's a problem.

02:49:29.860 | And at some point, we send her to a psychiatrist

02:49:35.580 | and they give her, they put her on Zoloft.

02:49:39.060 | She takes it for like a month or two

02:49:42.800 | and then she stops taking it.

02:49:43.920 | She thought she was all better.

02:49:46.920 | Like, you're not all better.

02:49:48.200 | - So can you give me a timeline here?

02:49:49.760 | How long are you able to be on the road here successfully?

02:49:53.160 | - Three years.

02:49:53.980 | - Three years.

02:49:54.820 | - This is me.

02:49:55.640 | This is the first few months.

02:49:56.480 | - Three years, three years.

02:49:59.300 | - What happens is we get that little chunk of money.

02:50:04.460 | We put it, deposit it in these bank accounts

02:50:06.920 | and we start pulling out cash,

02:50:08.620 | which works out fine 'cause we got a bunch of accounts

02:50:13.680 | and we're pulling out little amounts, 7,000, 5,000, 8,000.

02:50:17.480 | And I would cash checks against her accounts

02:50:20.600 | and they would call her to verify,

02:50:24.640 | there's someone here trying to cash a check for $9,000.

02:50:27.880 | Can you verify the payee?

02:50:30.440 | And they go, oh yeah, that's Scott Kugno.

02:50:32.800 | Oh, okay, thank you.

02:50:33.620 | And they cash the check.

02:50:34.680 | These are new accounts, so it looks odd.

02:50:37.400 | But we are always, I open the account.

02:50:40.400 | So what ends up happening is

02:50:43.120 | we're cashing 'em and I remember getting really frustrated

02:50:49.280 | 'cause it was just taking forever.

02:50:51.360 | And I had gone into a bank one time

02:50:53.560 | and they have banks where they cash,

02:50:59.340 | they actually cash large checks.

02:51:03.160 | Like if you go into Bank of America

02:51:04.220 | and you try and cash a check for $15,000 or 25,000,

02:51:07.260 | they probably won't do it.

02:51:08.740 | They'll tell you we don't have that much cash on hand.

02:51:10.740 | We don't this, we don't that.

02:51:12.260 | They have certain banks that do that.

02:51:14.200 | So they told me where one of those was.

02:51:16.300 | I went there, I had a check for like 29,000

02:51:18.660 | that had been cut on a closing for Michael Shanahan.

02:51:25.500 | Remember, I refinanced Michael Shanahan's name.

02:51:27.520 | I've got a check for 29,000 that was issued to Scott Kugno.

02:51:32.260 | So I'm sitting in the bank, I go in there,

02:51:33.720 | I say, "I need to cash this."

02:51:34.720 | And she says, "You're gonna have to talk to the manager."

02:51:36.800 | I go, "Okay."

02:51:37.640 | She says, "Go sit down over there."

02:51:38.800 | I go sit down in the little glass cubicle.

02:51:41.360 | He comes over and he says,

02:51:42.560 | "I see you're trying to cash this check."

02:51:43.960 | And I was like, "Right."

02:51:44.800 | He goes, "Why don't you just deposit in your own bank?"

02:51:46.340 | And I went, "My bank is a credit union or something

02:51:50.000 | "and it's in like Florida.

02:51:51.620 | "Like they'll hold this thing for like two weeks.

02:51:53.580 | "Like I need the money now, I have people I need to pay."

02:51:57.680 | He's like, "Well, I'm not sure."

02:52:01.440 | And I was like, "Well, it's fine.

02:52:02.280 | "It's a cashier's check, like it's good."

02:52:04.580 | And he goes, "No, it's good.

02:52:05.840 | "It's good, as you have the money."

02:52:07.940 | And he's like, "Yeah, we have the money."

02:52:09.300 | He said, "It's just odd."

02:52:10.700 | Hold on, he goes back in the back and he comes back

02:52:15.580 | and he says, "Where'd you get the check, cashier's check?"

02:52:19.180 | I said, "It was a cashier's check.

02:52:20.300 | "It was drawn off of a closing for somebody's property

02:52:24.420 | "that we're doing, the company I work for,

02:52:27.500 | "we're putting on an addition on."

02:52:30.700 | Okay, that makes sense.

02:52:31.800 | Comes back, "Well, why do you need cash?"

02:52:33.840 | And I was like, "I'm cashing guys' checks

02:52:35.780 | "that work for the company.

02:52:36.620 | "Like there's a lot of these guys

02:52:37.460 | "that are like Mexican guys.

02:52:38.400 | "They give them a check.

02:52:39.240 | "They go to a check cashing company

02:52:40.640 | "or they get charged five, 10%.

02:52:42.380 | "So I cashed them."

02:52:43.220 | I'm like, "I don't under, like, what?

02:52:46.060 | "The check's good, right?"

02:52:47.680 | Like my, and he's like, "Yeah, we're just trying

02:52:50.640 | "to verify some stuff."

02:52:51.560 | And he went, "Yeah, hold on."

02:52:55.520 | And he leaves again.

02:52:56.440 | And I remember my cell phone rang

02:52:58.440 | and I pick up the phone, it's Becky.

02:52:59.960 | She, "What are you doing?

02:53:00.800 | "What's taking so long?"

02:53:01.620 | I go, "Ah, the guy's being a jerk.

02:53:02.540 | "He didn't want to give me the money."

02:53:04.120 | Oh, she's like, "Oh my God, get out of the bank.

02:53:05.580 | "Get out of the bank."

02:53:06.820 | And I'm like, "I can't get out of the bank.

02:53:08.380 | "The guy's got my ID.

02:53:09.860 | "He's got my credit card, my ID and the check for 29,000.

02:53:14.020 | "Like he's going to call the police

02:53:15.060 | "if I just jump up and run."

02:53:16.520 | And I go, "Look, don't call me again.

02:53:19.620 | "I'll let you know, it'll be fine.

02:53:20.840 | "Hang up the phone."

02:53:21.840 | She calls back, same conversation.

02:53:25.560 | "I'm bouncing off the walls.

02:53:26.920 | "I'm like, I'm going crazy.

02:53:27.760 | "I'm like, I don't know, it'll be fine.

02:53:29.400 | "Hang up the phone."

02:53:30.240 | He comes back out and he goes, he said,

02:53:33.360 | "I said, hey, so what's taking so long?"

02:53:35.120 | And he goes, "We're trying to get in touch

02:53:37.040 | "with Michael Shanahan to verify the check."

02:53:40.260 | That's not good for me.

02:53:42.920 | Like, I'm thinking, right, right, okay, okay.

02:53:47.760 | And he walks away, the phone rings.

02:53:51.400 | It's Becky, "What's going on?"

02:53:53.040 | I go, "They're trying to get ahold

02:53:53.880 | "of Michael Shanahan."

02:53:54.960 | "Oh my God, oh my God."

02:53:58.480 | And I'm like, oh my God.

02:53:59.320 | And I remember thinking I shouldn't let her in the keys.

02:54:02.600 | There's a good chance I run out of this place

02:54:04.600 | and she's not there.

02:54:05.720 | - But by the way, when you're sitting there,

02:54:07.640 | who, Scott, you're Scott?

02:54:08.920 | - I'm Scott Cugno.

02:54:10.000 | - And then he's calling Michael Shanahan.

02:54:12.400 | - Right, they're saying they're trying

02:54:13.360 | to get in touch with Michael Shanahan.

02:54:15.080 | So then the phone rings.

02:54:17.360 | My cell rings again.

02:54:18.640 | I look and it's not Becky's, not Becky.

02:54:21.800 | So I pick up the phone, I go, "Hello."

02:54:23.120 | And she says, "Hi, this is Kim."

02:54:24.680 | "Is it from SunTrust Bank?

02:54:26.000 | "Is this Michael Shanahan?"

02:54:27.960 | So I'm like, "Yes, it is Michael Shanahan."

02:54:31.800 | And she says, "There's a guy here.

02:54:33.300 | "He's trying to cash a check.

02:54:34.420 | "It's very large.

02:54:35.300 | "Could you verify the payee?"

02:54:36.600 | And I go, "Sure, it's Scott Cugno."

02:54:39.560 | He's trying, I said, "I believe the amount's $29,000."

02:54:41.840 | And she goes, "That's right, thank you very much.

02:54:43.820 | "I appreciate it."

02:54:44.720 | I said, "Okay."

02:54:45.560 | I said, "Hey, by the way, how'd you get my number?

02:54:47.280 | "This is my cell number."

02:54:48.120 | And she's like, "Oh, I'm sorry.

02:54:49.200 | "We called the title company.

02:54:53.240 | "And the title company gave us your phone number."

02:54:57.040 | "Well, I closed those loans.

02:54:58.440 | "That's my cell."

02:54:59.280 | That's why, if they'd looked in any other way,

02:55:03.400 | they could've gotten in touch

02:55:04.280 | with the real Michael Shanahan.

02:55:05.840 | So I was like, "Oh, okay."

02:55:07.880 | Hang up the phone.

02:55:09.200 | - You're sitting, you answered the phone from the bank

02:55:12.040 | while sitting in the bank as Scott Cugno.

02:55:15.480 | - As Scott pretending to be Michael.

02:55:17.760 | - So I just, right, so I just verified the check myself.

02:55:21.760 | - As Matthew pretending to be Scott

02:55:23.240 | as pretending to be Michael.

02:55:24.200 | - Right.

02:55:25.320 | So I wait there, terrified still.

02:55:29.960 | They come out about two minutes later.

02:55:32.020 | The manager comes out, plus a woman.

02:55:34.220 | I'm assuming maybe that was Kim.

02:55:35.520 | She never said anything.

02:55:36.560 | And she walks out and she says,

02:55:38.280 | and he counts out the money twice, 29,000, 29,000.

02:55:42.720 | And I stand up and I'm like shoving the money in my pockets.

02:55:47.440 | Like I'm trying to get out of there so quick.

02:55:48.580 | I'm like, "Hey."

02:55:49.420 | I'm like, "Okay, cool."

02:55:50.560 | Like I'm thinking this whole thing is, you know, feels bad.

02:55:54.800 | And I'm getting up and I'm starting to walk out of the bank

02:55:59.520 | and he goes, he said, "Excuse me, Mr. Cugno?"

02:56:04.520 | And I said, "Yes, sir."

02:56:06.080 | I turn around and he goes, "I'd like you to know

02:56:08.460 | "that I feel very apprehensive about this transaction."

02:56:12.440 | And I go, "Really?

02:56:13.680 | "What is it exactly?"

02:56:15.240 | He goes, "I can't put my finger on it."

02:56:17.080 | And I go, "It'll come to you."

02:56:18.480 | And I turn around, I just bolt right out of there.

02:56:21.040 | And just keep in mind, a week or so later,

02:56:23.120 | the Secret Service shows up.

02:56:25.120 | "Did you cash a check for $29,000?"

02:56:27.880 | So what's so funny is like,

02:56:30.500 | that was one of the last checks we cashed.

02:56:32.200 | So we ended up with like 400,000.

02:56:33.980 | Was there a connection between the Secret Service

02:56:35.680 | and this guy?

02:56:37.160 | No. The apprehension?

02:56:38.560 | So the FBI is looking for me kind of in Tampa.

02:56:41.480 | Yeah.

02:56:42.320 | And they've put out a fugitive warrant for me,

02:56:44.800 | which is how the U.S. Marshals got involved.

02:56:47.000 | So the U.S. Marshals tracked down fugitives.

02:56:49.960 | Yes. Federal fugitives, they tracked down.

02:56:52.160 | But everybody's after you.

02:56:55.440 | You're on every list.

02:56:57.480 | Right. I'm on the FBI's most wanted list.

02:57:00.280 | At that point, the Secret Service got involved

02:57:03.240 | once I leave Atlanta.

02:57:04.840 | So when Becky and I pack up our bags and we leave Atlanta,

02:57:09.320 | the Secret Service got involved.

02:57:11.200 | Because of identity theft, banking, identity theft,

02:57:16.680 | the Secret Service doesn't just do counterfeiting

02:57:19.760 | and protect the president.

02:57:20.800 | They also protect the financial infrastructure

02:57:23.600 | of the United States.

02:57:24.440 | And they especially have jurisdiction

02:57:26.720 | when identity theft is involved.

02:57:28.920 | So identity theft plus bank fraud, that's when they--

02:57:33.040 | They move, yeah, that's it.

02:57:34.080 | That's their territory.

02:57:36.480 | So they don't--

02:57:37.320 | And then U.S. Marshals are just fugitives?

02:57:39.360 | U.S. Marshals are just fugitives.

02:57:40.520 | They don't do any investigation.

02:57:41.340 | They're all kind of working, okay.

02:57:42.840 | But they're all kind of working together?

02:57:44.240 | Yeah, like the U.S. Marshals are, let's say,

02:57:48.620 | an arm of all of the various law enforcement agencies,

02:57:53.620 | federal agencies, not the states.

02:57:57.480 | The states have their own fugitive task forces

02:57:59.560 | or fugitive--

02:58:00.800 | So when you leave Atlanta, basically everybody's after you.

02:58:03.940 | Everybody's after me.

02:58:05.120 | Did you know this at that time?

02:58:06.600 | Or did you sense it?

02:58:08.360 | No, I mean, now every day you're looking up,

02:58:10.900 | you're just looking your name up every day.

02:58:12.560 | I'm not, 'cause I'm just trying to get a bunch of money

02:58:15.760 | and just blend in, right?

02:58:18.160 | Things were not as interconnected at that time

02:58:20.720 | as they are now.

02:58:21.800 | But they're starting to get interconnected.

02:58:23.640 | But of course, I have no idea how much.

02:58:25.600 | I barely go on the internet for anything, dating.

02:58:29.740 | That's the only thing on the internet.

02:58:31.160 | I'd never been on Facebook.

02:58:32.600 | At this point, Facebook isn't even out yet.

02:58:35.480 | This is 2006.

02:58:38.160 | - Still, were you trying to stay low?

02:58:39.840 | - Yeah, I am.

02:58:40.800 | I'm not a flashy person.

02:58:42.320 | I'm not driving, like I didn't go out

02:58:44.300 | and buy a red Lamborghini.

02:58:47.040 | I'm driving $40,000, $50,000 cars.

02:58:51.320 | I've had some sports cars, 70, 80.

02:58:53.720 | Maybe that's $150,000 sports car now,

02:58:55.600 | but it's still not flashy.

02:58:56.800 | It's not like it's bright red or yellow.

02:58:58.760 | These are, it's always something nondescript.

02:59:03.760 | And I'm living in areas that these cars are everywhere.

02:59:06.600 | So I ended up going to Charlotte, North Carolina.

02:59:11.840 | We rent an apartment.

02:59:13.520 | We decide to run a scam in South Carolina.

02:59:18.520 | So I go to Columbia, South Carolina.

02:59:22.200 | And in between this period of time, we go to Las Vegas.

02:59:27.200 | And I, when we go to Las Vegas to drop off a bunch of money

02:59:32.300 | to Becky's son's father, who's taking care of her son.

02:59:37.980 | We drop off some money there.

02:59:40.480 | We go and we start, and while we're there,

02:59:42.840 | it's like, hey, there's homeless people here.

02:59:45.540 | So we.

02:59:46.740 | - So you're always--

02:59:50.280 | - You know, usually I don't feel bad telling these stories.

02:59:52.800 | You make me feel bad.

02:59:54.320 | - I'm sorry, my judgment is showing.

02:59:56.360 | No, but you have to be collecting identities, I guess,

02:59:59.400 | to be constantly creating new identities.

03:00:02.300 | - So I got my survey forms.

03:00:04.760 | So I go and we go out and we're taking,

03:00:09.760 | I'm taking surveys and I end up going up to this guy.

03:00:13.320 | It was like two or three guys

03:00:14.320 | that are standing on like a bench

03:00:15.440 | or sitting on next to a bench or something.

03:00:16.840 | And I see him and I walk up and the guy,

03:00:19.160 | one guy gets up and he comes over.

03:00:20.240 | He's like, hey, what do you need?

03:00:22.080 | And I went, I'm taking surveys for the Salvation Army

03:00:25.080 | to determine where we place our next homeless facility.

03:00:27.480 | And the guy goes, oh, I'm not interested.

03:00:29.160 | And they always said that.

03:00:29.980 | And I say, it pays 20 bucks cash right now.

03:00:31.560 | It'll take you five minutes.

03:00:33.000 | And they're like, $20 cash right now.

03:00:35.080 | I was like, yeah, I show him the cash.

03:00:36.560 | And they go, okay, yeah, yeah, what do you need?

03:00:38.240 | Name, date of birth, social security number.

03:00:40.160 | So when I get to criminal record,

03:00:43.980 | the guy, he says, criminal record.

03:00:45.200 | He's like, yeah, I've been arrested.

03:00:47.760 | He's, I've been arrested like three, four times for,

03:00:50.080 | he said, for prostitution.

03:00:51.840 | He said, but they're like misdemeanors.

03:00:54.800 | And I went, okay.

03:00:55.980 | And it was like, okay, well, prostitution.

03:01:01.480 | To me, women get charged with prostitution.

03:01:03.880 | Men get charged with solicitation.

03:01:05.740 | I went, prostitution?

03:01:06.760 | And he goes, and he went, he said, yeah, yeah.

03:01:08.700 | He said, I offered to blow an undercover cop for 20 bucks.

03:01:12.120 | He said, that's what I thought you were coming out here for.

03:01:14.400 | And I was like, no, no, bro.

03:01:17.040 | I said, okay.

03:01:17.920 | And he's like, yeah, he said, you know.

03:01:19.680 | He goes, I mean, he said, I mean, a girl's gotta do

03:01:22.440 | what a girl's gotta do.

03:01:23.280 | You know, and he made some comment or something.

03:01:25.000 | I was like, okay.

03:01:26.240 | So I jot down the rest of it.

03:01:28.280 | We're good.

03:01:29.100 | I give him 20 bucks.

03:01:29.940 | I get in my car.

03:01:30.760 | I leave.

03:01:31.600 | We get back to North Carolina.

03:01:36.280 | I order all of his documents.

03:01:37.400 | His name was Gary Sullivan.

03:01:39.200 | I then go to South Carolina.

03:01:42.780 | When I go to South Carolina,

03:01:45.320 | I get a real estate agent.

03:01:49.240 | We drive around for a day.

03:01:51.280 | We look at like five or six houses.

03:01:52.920 | I put five owner financing contracts

03:01:57.920 | on five different houses.

03:02:00.500 | So I get him, he writes up five contracts.

03:02:02.960 | All of them are asking for owner financing.

03:02:05.600 | I'll put down 10%.

03:02:07.680 | I want owner financing.

03:02:09.640 | Two of them end up coming back and saying,

03:02:11.480 | yes, we'll do it.

03:02:12.340 | I have two closings.

03:02:15.440 | One of them's a house that's worth like 225,000.

03:02:18.520 | I put down 25 grand.

03:02:20.320 | Another one's 110,000.

03:02:23.080 | I put down 11,000.

03:02:24.880 | So I buy these two houses.

03:02:27.080 | I then satisfy the loans on both the houses.

03:02:30.060 | Everything seems like it's going okay.

03:02:33.880 | Although Becky's a lunatic at this point.

03:02:37.120 | She's had so many, she won't take her medication.

03:02:40.680 | She's had so many outbursts that,

03:02:44.280 | and we've had, by this time, we've had plastic surgery.

03:02:46.680 | Like she's gotten plastic surgery.

03:02:48.720 | She's gotten a boob job.

03:02:50.200 | She's gotten liposuction.

03:02:52.560 | I mean, all kinds of stuff.

03:02:55.460 | So--

03:02:56.300 | - Look way different?

03:02:57.260 | Like appearance changes or?

03:03:00.080 | - Thinner, better looking, you know,

03:03:02.980 | just tightened everything up, I guess.

03:03:04.400 | You know, she was in her,

03:03:05.440 | she'd had a kid and she was 30, 33, 34.

03:03:10.440 | I don't know how she was, 20, 32, 33.

03:03:13.000 | I don't know, roughly my age.

03:03:14.680 | So yeah, I thought she looked,

03:03:16.640 | you know, she lost like 15 pounds.

03:03:18.160 | Like she was, not 'cause of the surgery,

03:03:19.840 | but just in general, we're just working out.

03:03:22.240 | We're going mountain climbing.

03:03:23.880 | We're, you know, riding bikes.

03:03:25.560 | We're doing, you know, fraud's not a full-time job.

03:03:27.900 | So, you know, we have plenty of time.

03:03:29.880 | So we're goofing off.

03:03:32.020 | And, but she's also a lunatic.

03:03:36.920 | You know, she's getting the cops called.

03:03:38.720 | She's able to go out and she's able to stay stoned

03:03:41.400 | 24 hours a day.

03:03:42.520 | She's going out with friends, drinking.

03:03:46.280 | I never leave the house.

03:03:48.040 | You know, even to this day,

03:03:49.480 | I really barely ever leave the house.

03:03:50.640 | I'm very much a homebody kind of person.

03:03:52.980 | So like the idea that I'm able to make my living

03:03:56.920 | doing YouTube and I never have to leave my house.

03:03:59.840 | I love that.

03:04:01.040 | I don't ever go anywhere except for the gym and back home.

03:04:03.180 | That's it.

03:04:04.020 | So what happens is I've actually moved her

03:04:08.580 | out of my apartment.

03:04:11.020 | Like I had an apartment downtown, 30-story building.

03:04:13.820 | Actually move her into another apartment.

03:04:15.780 | She's that much of a lunatic.

03:04:16.980 | We can't even be in the same place.

03:04:18.340 | Multiple times I've tried to leave her.

03:04:19.900 | She's called me up and begged me to come back.

03:04:22.660 | It's horrible.

03:04:23.700 | So I ended up buying a couple of houses

03:04:25.580 | in Columbia, South Carolina.

03:04:28.600 | I satisfy the loans on the houses.

03:04:30.580 | I've got an ID, not a driver's license,

03:04:33.620 | but an ID in the name of Gary Lee Sullivan.

03:04:36.320 | And I refinanced those houses

03:04:41.860 | 'cause keep in mind there was owner financing,

03:04:44.580 | but they also had mortgages.

03:04:45.740 | So there's something called a wraparound mortgage.

03:04:47.660 | So these guys did wraparound mortgages.

03:04:50.100 | So let's say you buy a house for $250,000

03:04:55.100 | and the bank lends you 200,000.

03:04:58.260 | And then you owner finance the house to me.

03:05:00.760 | So we do a, I give you 50 grand down,

03:05:03.360 | but I'm not able to get a loan from the bank

03:05:07.420 | to pay off your mortgage.

03:05:08.340 | So what we do is you do a wraparound mortgage.

03:05:11.620 | So I'll pay you your mortgage and you pay the bank.

03:05:15.380 | So there is a second mortgage on the property,

03:05:17.460 | but it's called a wraparound.

03:05:18.940 | It's wrapped around your first.

03:05:20.740 | - That's legal?

03:05:22.220 | - Mm-hmm, yeah.

03:05:23.520 | So I wouldn't lie to you.

03:05:26.040 | So these have wraparound mortgages.

03:05:29.160 | - So you're always selling and you're good at it.

03:05:32.160 | - So I go, I satisfy the loans,

03:05:36.840 | the owner finance loans, the wraparound mortgages,

03:05:39.400 | and I satisfy the loans, the original loans

03:05:44.240 | that these people took out on their own mortgages.

03:05:46.820 | One of them, by the way,

03:05:49.040 | you have to sign as the president of the bank, right?

03:05:53.080 | - Yeah.

03:05:53.920 | - So I sign it as C. Montgomery Burns,

03:05:57.040 | which is the aging tycoon in the,

03:05:59.320 | the guy that owns a power plant in "The Simpsons" TV show.

03:06:01.800 | So I sign that and I notarize it,

03:06:03.920 | which I thought was cute.

03:06:04.880 | I actually wanted to sign all of them cartoon characters

03:06:07.720 | and Becky was screaming her head off

03:06:09.840 | and wouldn't let me do it, right?

03:06:11.320 | Like I wanted to do all the Simpsons, right?

03:06:13.440 | But she wouldn't let me do it.

03:06:14.560 | She's screaming and hollering.

03:06:15.480 | So I ended up, nobody knows who C. Montgomery Burns is.

03:06:18.580 | So I sign it, notarize it.

03:06:20.800 | All of those are satisfied.

03:06:22.600 | I then go to the multiple banks and I refinance,

03:06:27.400 | start refinancing all these properties multiple times.

03:06:32.400 | So I'm applying for these loans and I'm getting the loans

03:06:36.240 | and I'm closing.

03:06:37.080 | So I've got like five or six loans on this one house.

03:06:40.560 | The house is like 225,000.

03:06:42.640 | I think it was like 230, whatever.

03:06:46.360 | I borrow like four or five loans on that house.

03:06:49.400 | So I borrow like $190,000 like five times.

03:06:53.240 | So I've got like $800,000.

03:06:55.320 | And then I borrow another three or 400,000

03:06:58.000 | on the other house, the one, the smaller one, right?

03:07:00.320 | So it ends up being like $1.3 million.

03:07:02.520 | It's actually like 1.5 million.

03:07:05.500 | It was more, but what happened with that was,

03:07:08.180 | so keep in mind, you can only open up

03:07:11.280 | so many bank accounts in your name.

03:07:13.360 | You can go to Bank of America, they'll open one.

03:07:15.060 | Then you go to SunTrust, they'll open one.

03:07:16.720 | They're gonna ask, they might even ask you,

03:07:18.400 | did you open another bank account today?

03:07:21.800 | 'Cause every time you do it, there's an inquiry

03:07:23.800 | into something called check systems or AccuCheck.

03:07:27.760 | And so then they go, so then by the time you go

03:07:30.040 | to the third bank, they'll say, listen,

03:07:32.920 | something's not right.

03:07:33.840 | You've got multiple inquiries.

03:07:36.240 | You know, if you go to whatever, Mercantile Bank,

03:07:38.040 | there might be, they might go, okay, we're gonna open one.

03:07:39.880 | They're gonna need an explanation,

03:07:41.080 | but you're not opening more than three.

03:07:43.520 | By the third one, they're gonna be like, absolutely not.

03:07:45.160 | Something's wrong.

03:07:46.680 | So, you know, I've got multiple identities,

03:07:48.820 | but I can only open up so many banks.

03:07:51.360 | The other problem is that these checks,

03:07:54.200 | they'll only give you so much money on a refi,

03:07:56.540 | usually after $100,000.

03:07:58.240 | They only wanna let you walk away with,

03:07:59.380 | let's say, $100,000.

03:08:01.440 | So one of the things I did was I would typically record

03:08:04.960 | another mortgage and have them pay that mortgage off.

03:08:07.600 | So I had to open, I opened a corporation to do that,

03:08:13.400 | so I could then turn around

03:08:14.440 | and go open corporate bank accounts.

03:08:16.760 | 'Cause now it's not going off my information,

03:08:18.720 | it's going off the corporation.

03:08:20.200 | So I can open up multiple corporate bank accounts.

03:08:22.880 | - These corporations are fake or real?

03:08:24.640 | - No, no, I went to a real corporate bank,

03:08:26.920 | corporate attorney and had him open 'em.

03:08:28.880 | I gave him, whatever, I gave him like $1,500, $2,000,

03:08:31.360 | and he opened up a corporation for me, Gary Sullivan.

03:08:34.440 | And I then turned around and I went

03:08:36.200 | and opened up multiple bank accounts

03:08:37.640 | in that corporation's name.

03:08:39.880 | - How are you keeping track of all this,

03:08:41.240 | 'cause this is, I don't, so I'm only--

03:08:42.920 | - Is this in your head or do you have good organization?

03:08:44.440 | - No, no, no, I have, every single identity

03:08:47.120 | has its own file with plastic inlays,

03:08:52.120 | sleeves for their passports.

03:08:54.360 | - That's nice and organized.

03:08:55.200 | - For all this, it's super organized.

03:08:56.040 | - So you open this, I'm Gary now.

03:08:58.560 | - Right, that's exactly what it is.

03:09:00.160 | Like you kinda go over, boom, boom, boom, boom,

03:09:01.640 | you sit in your car for a minute,

03:09:02.960 | you put it down, you walk in.

03:09:04.540 | Well, what happens is, it went up to like 1.5 million,

03:09:09.840 | and I'm pulling money out of the bank,

03:09:11.320 | and then one day I get a phone call

03:09:13.080 | on Gary Sullivan's cell phone.

03:09:15.740 | The guy, it's a lawyer, they call up,

03:09:17.840 | he says, "Hey, I'm a lawyer with Washington Mutual,

03:09:20.000 | "we have an issue."

03:09:21.280 | I said, "What's that?"

03:09:23.360 | He says, "We got a phone call from the title company."

03:09:26.000 | One of the title companies that I was attempting

03:09:28.360 | to refinance one of the piece of property with,

03:09:31.480 | noticed that I, they had been sent,

03:09:34.720 | they'd been sent a document that showed

03:09:36.840 | that I had purchased the property,

03:09:39.800 | and I said I purchased it cash,

03:09:42.160 | and the document said I purchased it cash,

03:09:45.120 | and they got that, and there was actually a mortgage

03:09:50.280 | on the property, and so somehow or another,

03:09:52.320 | they connected it, and they called Washington Mutual,

03:09:55.320 | and they said, "Look, there's an issue.

03:09:57.540 | "We have a fraudulent document here."

03:09:59.440 | And he was like, he said, "So we went and we looked,

03:10:02.980 | "and it turns out that we pulled public records,

03:10:06.860 | "and that there is a mortgage in front of us,

03:10:11.220 | "several mortgages in front of us.

03:10:13.320 | "So there's like three or four mortgages in front of me,

03:10:16.400 | "Washington Mutual, you owe us."

03:10:19.140 | And it wasn't that much, it was like 100 grand, right?

03:10:23.460 | Like 95 or 100, and I said, "Okay."

03:10:27.900 | And he said, "So there's an issue here.

03:10:30.220 | "You've got a few mortgages in front of us,

03:10:31.900 | "and we're supposed to be a first mortgage,

03:10:34.120 | "and we're not supposed to be two mortgages behind,

03:10:36.040 | "or three."

03:10:36.880 | And I was like, "Okay, sounds like an error.

03:10:40.280 | "Not a big deal.

03:10:41.600 | "Have you contacted law enforcement?"

03:10:43.000 | He said, "No, I haven't.

03:10:43.840 | "I was hoping we could rectify this some other way."

03:10:45.880 | I said, "You know what, I think we can.

03:10:47.280 | "I'm gonna have my lawyer call you back.

03:10:49.240 | "I'm gonna go to his place right now.

03:10:50.620 | "Give me about two hours."

03:10:52.440 | No problem, I immediately run, jump in my car,

03:10:55.520 | head towards South Carolina, call my corporate lawyer,

03:10:58.600 | tell him, "Look, I need to talk to you.

03:11:00.340 | "Here's what's going on."

03:11:01.240 | I explain it to him, he doesn't really understand.

03:11:03.920 | He says, "This sounds pretty complicated.

03:11:06.000 | "My law partner is a criminal defense attorney.

03:11:11.000 | "I'm gonna set up a meeting right now with all of us."

03:11:15.200 | Okay, I get there 45 minutes later,

03:11:17.720 | I walk in the door, I sit down.

03:11:19.240 | He says, "What happened?"

03:11:20.760 | I said, "Gary, this doesn't sound right.

03:11:24.280 | "What happened?"

03:11:25.400 | I said, "Okay, so listen, bought this house.

03:11:27.600 | "I bought it cash, I then refinanced it."

03:11:31.200 | I didn't buy it cash.

03:11:32.480 | But I told him, I bought it cash,

03:11:34.000 | I refinanced it like four or five times

03:11:37.560 | within a day or two of each other.

03:11:38.720 | And they were like, "How is that even possible?"

03:11:40.320 | I was like, "Well, I went to different title companies."

03:11:41.680 | I explain how I do it.

03:11:42.680 | I said, "Washington Mutual just found out

03:11:44.840 | "that they're in like second position or third position."

03:11:47.900 | Or I said, "But they're probably,

03:11:50.220 | "they may be in fourth position.

03:11:51.600 | "They mail these things in, so you never know."

03:11:54.520 | And he was like, "Oh my God."

03:11:57.080 | He's like, "That's, what do you wanna do?"

03:11:59.440 | I said, "I want you to contact them

03:12:01.560 | "and agree for them to not contact the authorities

03:12:04.340 | "provided I pay them off."

03:12:07.000 | He's, "Do you have the money?"

03:12:07.840 | I said, "I do have the money.

03:12:08.660 | "I can go get the money right now."

03:12:10.800 | He calls the lawyer.

03:12:12.040 | This is back when faxes, right?

03:12:14.660 | So they fax some documents back and forth.

03:12:16.400 | They do a couple emails back and forth.

03:12:19.400 | And they have a conversation.

03:12:21.760 | I remember the lawyer started arguing

03:12:23.320 | 'cause he wanted to charge me like yield spread

03:12:26.780 | and fees and stuff.

03:12:27.760 | And I was like, "What are you talking about?

03:12:29.100 | "Like, I'll pay it."

03:12:30.320 | So it ends up being a little over 100,000.

03:12:32.680 | And I'm like, "That's it."

03:12:33.800 | So he's like, "Okay."

03:12:35.440 | And so he says, "Okay, that sounds good."

03:12:39.640 | And so he said, "Okay, all you have to do

03:12:41.760 | "is go get the check."

03:12:43.560 | And he said, "Bring it to a Washington Mutual branch.

03:12:46.060 | "Tell them to call."

03:12:46.900 | I said, "I'm not going in a Washington Mutual branch, bro.

03:12:49.120 | "I'll bring you the check."

03:12:50.440 | So he calls him back.

03:12:51.400 | He's not doing that.

03:12:52.240 | And he's like, "Okay, I'll bring it here.

03:12:54.460 | "You guys take care of it."

03:12:55.300 | He said, "No problem, okay."

03:12:57.040 | Hang up the phone and he turns to me and he says,

03:12:59.380 | "Okay, well, we have a problem."

03:13:00.460 | He said, "We still have the problem

03:13:01.400 | "of these other mortgages."

03:13:03.700 | And I went, "Right."

03:13:05.060 | And he said, and he goes, "Okay, well."

03:13:08.100 | I said, "They don't know anything."

03:13:09.460 | He said, "I know, but Gary," he said,

03:13:11.600 | "What if they find out?"

03:13:14.020 | I said, "They find out that they're like in second,

03:13:15.860 | "third, and fourth place?"

03:13:17.460 | He's like, "Right."

03:13:18.300 | I said, "I leave town."

03:13:20.380 | And he went, so they both laugh.

03:13:22.100 | They go, "Gary, you can't just leave town."

03:13:26.140 | They have a copy of your driver's license.

03:13:28.280 | They have your social security number.

03:13:29.600 | They have your birth certificate.

03:13:30.800 | I said, "They'll find you.

03:13:31.820 | "It's the FBI."

03:13:33.080 | And I go, "You're assuming I'm Gary Sullivan."

03:13:36.280 | - Wow, you tell 'em.

03:13:37.840 | - And they, listen, they looked at me and they went.

03:13:40.400 | And I remember he said, he goes,

03:13:44.600 | "We'll cross that bridge when we get to it."

03:13:47.600 | I said, "Right, my immediate problem

03:13:49.260 | "is getting rid of these people."

03:13:51.240 | And he goes, "Right, right."

03:13:53.660 | So I go get the check, bring it back, give it to them.

03:13:57.920 | Never called the FBI.

03:13:59.960 | - Can't believe you got away with the Washington Mutual.

03:14:02.680 | - Oh, bro, this is--

03:14:04.360 | - I mean, these are all really close calls, it seems like.

03:14:07.660 | - No, this is the close call.

03:14:09.880 | I have two more close calls

03:14:11.040 | that my hands sweat thinking about it.

03:14:14.440 | I walk into Wachovia.

03:14:20.040 | I just opened this account two months ago.

03:14:22.200 | So it's a new account.

03:14:23.320 | So whenever I would go in there, I'd say,

03:14:24.480 | "Hey, I need $7,000, $6,000, anything over $3,000."

03:14:28.640 | They had to call to get permission, right?

03:14:30.680 | Like authorization.

03:14:32.640 | So she's like, "Okay, I gotta go call."

03:14:34.100 | I said, "No problem."

03:14:35.280 | So the girl walks in the back.

03:14:37.680 | I'm sitting there waiting.

03:14:38.600 | All of a sudden, a massive person

03:14:43.600 | reaches over my hand and grabs my wrist.

03:14:46.160 | And somebody grabs it from the other one

03:14:47.640 | and they pull my hands behind my back.

03:14:49.940 | These are two of possibly

03:14:51.720 | the largest law enforcement officers

03:14:53.280 | I've ever seen in my entire life.

03:14:54.880 | I mean, they're massive.

03:14:56.680 | And they handcuff me and they say,

03:15:00.920 | "You're Mr. Sullivan, you're being detained.

03:15:05.420 | "We're taking you into custody and putting you,

03:15:09.020 | "we're holding you until a detective gets here."

03:15:12.080 | - Who are these guys?

03:15:12.920 | Is this U.S. Marshals or is this cops or what?

03:15:15.360 | - These are sheriff's deputies.

03:15:16.720 | - Sheriff's deputies.

03:15:17.720 | - And as they walk me in the back,

03:15:20.800 | they're calling me Mr. Sullivan.

03:15:22.680 | They sit me down.

03:15:24.680 | And by now, the Secret Service are looking for me.

03:15:29.000 | They're calling me,

03:15:30.280 | well, they were calling us John and Jane Doe,

03:15:32.640 | but now they figured out who we were.

03:15:34.660 | And so now I'm on the Secret Service's most wanted list.

03:15:37.800 | I'm not like number one at that.

03:15:41.000 | Right, like I probably was,

03:15:42.200 | but we just found out I was on that list.

03:15:45.720 | So it's getting bad.

03:15:47.340 | So they sit me down and I'm waiting.

03:15:49.360 | And I remember thinking that the FBI was coming.

03:15:52.400 | I don't really know.

03:15:54.400 | At that point,

03:15:55.240 | I couldn't tell you the difference between everybody.

03:15:57.060 | And then five minutes go by and I'm sitting there going,

03:16:00.000 | "What is going on?

03:16:00.840 | "Do you guys have any idea what's going on?"

03:16:01.880 | They're like, "We don't know.

03:16:03.400 | "We're just grunts.

03:16:04.440 | "We just do what we're told."

03:16:05.780 | So suddenly this guy walks in.

03:16:07.480 | He's probably in his early 30s maybe.

03:16:10.080 | He walks in, gray suit.

03:16:12.600 | I think he looks like he's FBI.

03:16:14.160 | He says, "Hey, I'm a detective with the,

03:16:16.660 | "I wanna say Richland County, whatever,

03:16:19.520 | "sheriff's department or police department, whatever."

03:16:22.220 | And I was like, "Oh, okay."

03:16:23.220 | And he says, "Yeah, listen, we've got an issue.

03:16:24.800 | "Wachovia, Wachovia wants us to arrest you."

03:16:28.660 | He said, "They're saying that you've got

03:16:31.700 | "three mortgages on your house."

03:16:35.860 | And I go, "Is that illegal?"

03:16:38.220 | And he looked at me and he went,

03:16:39.680 | "You know, to be honest, I don't know."

03:16:42.180 | And I distinctly remember thinking,

03:16:44.140 | "I'm walking out of here.

03:16:45.480 | "All I have to do is convince this guy

03:16:46.840 | "I haven't done anything wrong.

03:16:47.860 | "He's already said he doesn't know."

03:16:49.760 | So he gets on the phone with the head

03:16:51.240 | of Wachovia's fraud department.

03:16:53.620 | And he's saying, "This guy is running

03:16:56.360 | "what's called a shotgunning scam."

03:16:58.940 | Which is absolutely right.

03:17:00.540 | And so-- - What is a shotgunning?

03:17:02.280 | - It's where you close on so many loans simultaneously,

03:17:06.360 | they can't catch it.

03:17:07.840 | Anyway, they start going back and forth.

03:17:11.240 | And he's on the phone and he's like,

03:17:13.580 | "Why did you close three loans?"

03:17:15.040 | And I said, "I, you know, why are you pulling?"

03:17:18.440 | I said, "It's not illegal.

03:17:19.480 | "I have a first mortgage, a second mortgage,

03:17:21.440 | "and a home equity line of credit.

03:17:23.680 | "That's perfectly legal."

03:17:25.260 | And he goes, and you could hear the guy,

03:17:26.480 | "Yeah, they're all first mortgages."

03:17:28.440 | And I said, "I read every one of those documents.

03:17:30.160 | "Not one of them said they were first mortgages,

03:17:32.300 | "and they don't.

03:17:33.220 | "First mortgages don't say they're first mortgages.

03:17:35.080 | "It's the placement of the mortgage.

03:17:37.120 | "It's placement of the lien that determines

03:17:38.380 | "is it a first, second, or third.

03:17:40.340 | "So it's possible that I wouldn't have known it,

03:17:42.960 | "certain that I could have read those documents

03:17:44.560 | "and not known."

03:17:45.440 | And he's like, "That's not true."

03:17:47.800 | And he's screaming.

03:17:48.920 | And so I go, "Yeah, listen."

03:17:51.640 | And he said, "Well, you're taking out all cash.

03:17:53.840 | "Why are you taking out all cash?"

03:17:54.880 | I said, "Well, I mean, I don't know if this sounds,

03:17:56.620 | "I don't know, this might be illegal."

03:17:57.980 | I said, "I don't know."

03:17:58.820 | I said, "I mean, I work for a labor company,

03:18:03.820 | "labor on demand."

03:18:05.580 | I pull out my business card.

03:18:09.560 | You can call.

03:18:10.840 | So I'm like, "I work for labor on demand."

03:18:12.800 | And I said, "We hire a lot of guys

03:18:15.760 | "that like they don't have banking out.

03:18:16.800 | "So the company pays them.

03:18:18.520 | "And then usually I'll pull out money

03:18:20.560 | "and I'll cash their checks

03:18:22.540 | "because they get charged like 10%

03:18:23.800 | "of these cashing companies and I feel bad.

03:18:25.660 | "I know the checks are good.

03:18:26.680 | "So I just deposit them.

03:18:27.960 | "I mean, I don't think that."

03:18:28.800 | I said, "But I don't know if that's illegal.

03:18:30.200 | "I don't think that's illegal."

03:18:32.040 | And he's like, "No, no, no, that's fine.

03:18:33.500 | "That's a decent thing to do.

03:18:34.400 | "It's not, that's fine."

03:18:35.520 | I'm like, "Oh, okay."

03:18:37.320 | So he's talking to the guy

03:18:39.720 | and Wachovia is screaming and hollering.

03:18:42.120 | He says, "He's doing that."

03:18:45.840 | He's going back and forth, back and forth.

03:18:47.220 | So we're going back and forth

03:18:49.240 | and I'm just derailing everything this guy says.

03:18:53.400 | And at one point he says, he's screaming,

03:18:57.440 | he's committing fraud, we want him arrested.

03:18:59.960 | And he's like, "I don't know what to charge him with."

03:19:02.000 | And he's like, he's saying these aren't...

03:19:07.000 | He's like, "Hey, look, how did you even do this?

03:19:11.920 | "So I go, look, I didn't do this."

03:19:14.800 | I said, "I came to Wachovia, I met with a loan officer.

03:19:17.320 | "I said, I need a first mortgage.

03:19:18.480 | "I need to pull out like $100,000.

03:19:19.840 | "I wanna start buying houses."

03:19:21.320 | He goes, "That's right.

03:19:22.160 | "You own another house here too, don't you?"

03:19:23.360 | I said, "I do."

03:19:24.720 | I said, "We're putting a new roof on it.

03:19:26.040 | "We're gonna build an addition.

03:19:27.100 | "We're putting in a pool.

03:19:28.180 | "I'm buying one right down the street from that one."

03:19:29.960 | I said, "So obviously I'm pulling out money."

03:19:33.320 | I said, "So I told them I need $100,000."

03:19:36.360 | They said, "That's fine."

03:19:37.560 | They said they could only get me $100,000 out.

03:19:41.220 | Something about Fannie Mae guidelines, which is true.

03:19:43.940 | And I said, "So then she said I can get you,

03:19:47.980 | "I can send you to a friend of mine who's a loan officer.

03:19:49.840 | "She can get you a second mortgage," which she did.

03:19:51.940 | I said, "Then I told her she could only get me

03:19:54.180 | "100,000 or so, 190,000."

03:19:56.780 | And she said, "You should get an equity line of credit

03:19:59.080 | "if you're gonna be doing like renovating properties."

03:20:02.780 | So she sent me to somebody

03:20:03.820 | and they got me an equity line of credit.

03:20:05.020 | I said, "I haven't committed fraud."

03:20:09.420 | I said, "I wouldn't know how to commit fraud

03:20:11.180 | "if you told me."

03:20:12.020 | I said, "What sounds more reasonable?"

03:20:14.540 | A guy that worked for a labor company

03:20:16.500 | ripped off a bunch of banks for over half a million dollars.

03:20:21.840 | I said, "Or some loan officers got together

03:20:24.200 | "and did something illegal."

03:20:25.700 | I said, "There's a problem at the bank."

03:20:28.100 | And he says, "I think you've got a problem at the bank."

03:20:31.020 | And this guy goes nuts.

03:20:32.860 | And while he's screaming, he needs to be arrested.

03:20:35.140 | This is fraud.

03:20:36.000 | My loan officers have not done anything illegal.

03:20:38.740 | They wouldn't do that.

03:20:40.460 | He says, "Look at his ID."

03:20:42.220 | His ID is fake.

03:20:44.100 | His ID starts with zero, zero, zero.

03:20:46.580 | South Carolina IDs start with zero, zero, zero.

03:20:51.460 | This guy's in California.

03:20:53.300 | He has no idea.

03:20:54.780 | So when he says that,

03:20:56.240 | the detective looks at my ID and he goes,

03:21:01.600 | "Listen," he said, "This is a real ID.

03:21:06.120 | "I ran this guy through NCIC."

03:21:08.600 | He said, "This is Gary Sullivan."

03:21:11.600 | And I looked at him, I go, "Now I'm not Gary Sullivan?"

03:21:15.320 | I go, "Come on, bro, what are we doing here?"

03:21:17.320 | And he goes, "I know, Gary, I know."

03:21:19.200 | And he says, "I'm gonna take him downtown.

03:21:23.360 | "I'm going to talk to my," whatever,

03:21:26.800 | "lieutenant, whoever, captain,

03:21:28.360 | "and I'm gonna fill out a police report

03:21:30.120 | "and I'll let you know."

03:21:31.720 | And he hangs up.

03:21:33.680 | I get up.

03:21:34.720 | They've taken the handcuffs off.

03:21:36.580 | I stand up.

03:21:38.520 | As we're walking out with the detectives,

03:21:41.320 | as we're all kind of walking out, he goes,

03:21:43.020 | "Hey, you have an ID.

03:21:44.200 | "Do you have a driver's license?"

03:21:46.440 | And I went, "Um, I do, but it's in Nevada."

03:21:49.780 | And he goes, "Oh, that's right."

03:21:51.920 | He goes, "You're from Vegas."

03:21:53.720 | And he looks at the two deputies and they all kind of grin.

03:21:57.900 | And I think, "He ran me through NCIC,"

03:22:01.920 | which means he ran a statewide criminal database,

03:22:05.600 | which means he thinks I've been arrested

03:22:07.360 | three times for prostitution in Vegas.

03:22:09.440 | - Ah, right.

03:22:10.920 | - Listen, I'm humiliated.

03:22:13.340 | I was just like, and the grin told me,

03:22:16.800 | and I was just like, "Oh, man."

03:22:19.400 | And so one of the cops goes, "Here, give me the ID."

03:22:22.800 | Takes the ID.

03:22:23.640 | He goes, "I'll check and see."

03:22:25.080 | 'Cause I have to follow him back in my car.

03:22:28.360 | So he goes, and by the way,

03:22:30.560 | my car is in the name Michael Eckert.

03:22:35.460 | So Michael Eckert, he doesn't have a photograph

03:22:37.720 | of Michael Eckert because you can't pull up photographs

03:22:40.940 | from other states.

03:22:42.300 | So he doesn't have a photograph,

03:22:44.560 | but he knows that's not my car.

03:22:46.760 | And he asked me, "Whose car are you driving?"

03:22:48.280 | I said, "Oh, that's my boss, Michael Eckert."

03:22:50.240 | I said, "That's my boss."

03:22:51.320 | And he goes, "Oh, Michael Eckert."

03:22:52.160 | I said, "Yeah, exactly."

03:22:53.560 | And he's like, and I'm like, "Oh, my God."

03:22:55.680 | So I'm thinking he knows Michael Eckert.

03:22:58.160 | Knows it's registered in North Carolina.

03:23:00.520 | Knows the address, which is where I was currently living.

03:23:03.000 | That's a problem.

03:23:04.220 | So the police officer or the, I'm sorry,

03:23:07.320 | deputy grabs the ID, walks outside, comes back.

03:23:11.080 | I have no idea if this homeless guy

03:23:12.640 | has a driver's license in Nevada.

03:23:14.880 | I don't know.

03:23:15.720 | He had nothing on him.

03:23:17.080 | He comes back and he goes, "Does he have a valid license?"

03:23:19.600 | He goes, "Yeah, it's valid."

03:23:20.840 | And he hands it to him, or he hands me the ID.

03:23:24.040 | And he says, he goes, "It's valid?"

03:23:26.400 | And he looked at me, he goes, "Yeah, well."

03:23:29.120 | He said, "It says he's like, he says he's five foot 11."

03:23:32.480 | Like, it was like 5'10", 5'11".

03:23:35.200 | I'm clearly not 5'10" or 5'11".

03:23:36.960 | And they all look at me and I go,

03:23:38.680 | "Fellas, with a good pair of shoes."

03:23:40.960 | Like that, and they all go, "Ha, ha, ha, follow us, Gary."

03:23:45.800 | I follow them back to the police station.

03:23:48.720 | Becky is calling me on the phone, screaming her head off.

03:23:53.480 | Now, I'd always told Becky,

03:23:55.920 | "If I ever get arrested,

03:23:58.260 | immediately go get me a lawyer.

03:24:04.280 | The lawyer will be able to get me out on bond

03:24:06.520 | 'cause I'll be arrested for something stupid."

03:24:09.080 | I said, "It'll be something like trying to cash a check,

03:24:11.960 | you know, a fake check or a use of something."

03:24:15.040 | I said, "It won't be, all my IDs are real.

03:24:16.800 | So it won't be for a fake ID.

03:24:18.200 | So my ID won't be in question."

03:24:20.680 | Most police departments and sheriffs at that time

03:24:25.680 | did not run your fingerprints through AFIS.

03:24:30.000 | So they didn't, 'cause they charge them for that.

03:24:32.520 | So they don't typically do it

03:24:33.720 | unless your identity is in question.

03:24:35.280 | Mine wouldn't be.

03:24:36.120 | I have a valid driver's license or a valid ID in that state.

03:24:39.800 | So I go back, she's screaming.

03:24:41.340 | She's like, "Oh my God, you don't understand.

03:24:43.320 | I just checked the internet, the website.

03:24:49.880 | You are number one

03:24:51.200 | on the Secret Service's most wanted list."

03:24:53.960 | And I was like, "I got bigger problems right now.

03:24:56.280 | They just held me in the bank.

03:24:57.320 | I'm following them right now."

03:24:59.800 | And she was like, "Get on the interstate, go, go."

03:25:03.360 | I cannot go.

03:25:04.280 | The detective's in front of me.

03:25:06.040 | The cops are behind me.

03:25:07.740 | They're escorting me to the police.

03:25:09.080 | Listen, she's like, "Oh my God, run, run."

03:25:10.720 | I go, "Look, I'm not a NASCAR driver.

03:25:13.600 | Like I'm driving, it's a sports car,

03:25:17.040 | but it's not gonna outrun a radio or a helicopter.

03:25:19.060 | Like I'm not, that's not gonna happen.

03:25:20.400 | I know it looks, it seems nice.

03:25:21.920 | I'm not that guy."

03:25:22.920 | So I was like, "I can't."

03:25:24.840 | I said, "Look, you don't understand.

03:25:25.660 | I was in handcuffs 30 minutes ago.

03:25:27.000 | I just talked my way out of them.

03:25:28.240 | I'm gonna get out of this."

03:25:29.560 | And I said, "The worst that happens is I'll be arrested

03:25:33.160 | as Gary Sullivan.

03:25:36.080 | You can get me a police, you can get me an attorney.

03:25:41.000 | He can get me out."

03:25:42.080 | And she goes, "I'm not getting you an attorney.

03:25:44.800 | I'm not getting you out on bond.

03:25:46.800 | I'm not risking everything I've got for you."

03:25:50.340 | Because she has all the money.

03:25:52.180 | We've got seven, $800,000 at this point.

03:25:55.680 | Oh, and by the way, she's not even in North Carolina

03:26:00.700 | at this point.

03:26:01.540 | She's relocated to Houston, Texas.

03:26:04.980 | Because when this scam fell apart,

03:26:08.280 | we were gonna move to Texas.

03:26:10.380 | So we were already moving there.

03:26:12.340 | - But by the way, just a small tangent,

03:26:16.420 | where do you store money in situations like this that,

03:26:19.420 | like when you talk about 800,000,

03:26:22.300 | do you have to keep moving accounts

03:26:23.940 | to make sure it's not accessible by FBI?

03:26:27.140 | - Well, there's about 600,000 or 700,000 accounts,

03:26:29.300 | but keep in mind, I'm getting that out in cash.

03:26:31.640 | Like there's no Bitcoin, there's no,

03:26:33.680 | none of that stuff exists.

03:26:34.900 | So my, you know, I probably should have bought diamonds

03:26:37.940 | or bought gold or bought, like, I don't know any of that.

03:26:40.660 | All I could think of is go in slowly, be patient.

03:26:45.620 | Don't drain the accounts, you know, fluctuate them.

03:26:48.260 | Like I was writing, getting cashier's checks

03:26:51.080 | from one account to another.

03:26:53.260 | So the balances were doing this, you know,

03:26:55.340 | they weren't just going, they were doing this.

03:26:58.020 | And then one day, boom, they're gone.

03:26:59.580 | - Okay, got it.

03:27:00.540 | - So we got out like whatever,

03:27:04.380 | we got, we've gotten out like six or 700,000.

03:27:06.380 | There's still like six or 700,000 in the bank,

03:27:08.940 | but I'm not going back, I'm done.

03:27:10.740 | I actually, to be honest with you.

03:27:12.020 | So, well, look, I go in.

03:27:14.700 | So I go into the police station.

03:27:16.840 | And well, first she says, if you go in the police station,

03:27:21.820 | I'm done.

03:27:22.860 | If you get arrested, you're done.

03:27:24.460 | I said, well, I better not get arrested.

03:27:26.120 | I hang up the phone, cop standing behind my car.

03:27:29.060 | Get out, I go in the police station.

03:27:30.860 | I walk in, I fill out the police report.

03:27:34.020 | He tells me I got to talk to my captain real quick.

03:27:36.740 | Can you wait?

03:27:37.580 | He couldn't leave me in his cubicle.

03:27:38.900 | He goes, can you wait in the hallway?

03:27:40.340 | I can't leave you in the,

03:27:41.460 | I said, no, no problem.

03:27:42.460 | So I go and I wait in the hallway.

03:27:43.860 | In the hallway are a whole wall full of,

03:27:46.820 | on the cork board, wanted posters.

03:27:50.080 | Black and white, black and white.

03:27:51.100 | Like, you know, car thief, you know, rapist,

03:27:53.660 | murderer, Secret Service's most wanted.

03:27:58.300 | And I'm on the, on my face is right there.

03:28:01.020 | I'm like, holy Jesus.

03:28:03.780 | And, you know, everything in me told me,

03:28:06.940 | run, bro, just fucking haul ass right now.

03:28:08.660 | Right now, just go.

03:28:09.820 | Your luck's run out.

03:28:12.020 | Not that I even thought he was,

03:28:13.020 | there were so many, I didn't think he was gonna see it.

03:28:15.860 | But it just, everything in me just said, run.

03:28:19.260 | The problem is if you've ever been into a police station,

03:28:22.260 | you're not getting out of it.

03:28:23.660 | Do you understand?

03:28:24.480 | - There's a lot of cops around.

03:28:26.020 | - Well, not just that, but they buzz you in.

03:28:28.700 | You get in the elevator, you have to punch in a code.

03:28:30.860 | You have to punch in a code to get back out of the elevator.

03:28:32.780 | You have to punch in a code to get into the next door.

03:28:34.460 | There's like, I mean, it was, it's impossible.

03:28:37.940 | Like, I'm never, I'm not gonna get in the elevator.

03:28:40.140 | So, guy comes back up, the cop comes back up.

03:28:42.980 | He said, hey, Gary, appreciate it, no problem.

03:28:46.300 | My captain said, we're good.

03:28:47.580 | We're gonna wait for a phone call from the,

03:28:49.380 | no, the district attorney called already.

03:28:52.980 | They're looking into it.

03:28:54.260 | I'm gonna go ahead and let you go.

03:28:57.480 | I go downstairs, he walks me out to my car.

03:29:00.740 | He said, look, do me a favor.

03:29:02.980 | He's like, we do have some serious questions at this point.

03:29:05.260 | Like, the district attorney said,

03:29:06.260 | there's something is up.

03:29:09.060 | He said, I said, not with me.

03:29:11.580 | And he said, well, just do me a favor.

03:29:13.300 | He goes, don't leave town.

03:29:14.740 | I said, bro, I own two houses here.

03:29:16.300 | I'm not going anywhere.

03:29:17.620 | I said, I'm telling you right now.

03:29:18.460 | I said, Wachovia, they fucked up.

03:29:20.940 | And he's like, I believe you, I believe you.

03:29:22.860 | He said, whatever, he said, whatever.

03:29:24.020 | He's like, I hope you, I hope they were right.

03:29:25.500 | I'm sure you're right.

03:29:26.900 | Okay, so I get in my car, I leave.

03:29:29.100 | I go to two more banks, pull out more money.

03:29:31.260 | But at one point, I go into a bank

03:29:33.660 | and like two of the cashiers practically slam

03:29:36.860 | into each other, trying to get to the phone.

03:29:38.340 | And I could tell something's up.

03:29:39.900 | Like, oh no, no, no, no, something's up.

03:29:41.300 | So I get in my car, back out.

03:29:43.020 | One of them even actually kind of runs out,

03:29:44.380 | looks, tag number, you know?

03:29:46.340 | So I drive, I get in the interstate, I go.

03:29:48.580 | You know, Becky, of course, she's, you know,

03:29:50.740 | I'm sorry, I love you.

03:29:53.580 | I would have never done, I was just scared.

03:29:55.500 | I understand.

03:29:56.340 | I go--

03:29:58.380 | - Becky sounds like a handful.

03:29:59.260 | - Oh my God, bro.

03:30:02.100 | So I go all the way back to Charlotte.

03:30:04.420 | I pack up my apartment.

03:30:05.700 | I drive all the way to Houston

03:30:08.580 | with my entire apartment packed up, by the way,

03:30:10.500 | in a U-Haul.

03:30:11.340 | Like, the next day, the next morning,

03:30:13.820 | she's got people there packing it up, movers.

03:30:16.340 | We pack it up.

03:30:18.860 | I drive the U-Haul all the way to Houston.

03:30:21.300 | Takes a couple days.

03:30:22.340 | I unload it into, we have some guys unload it

03:30:27.220 | into a storage unit 'cause I'm gonna stay

03:30:31.980 | with Becky until I find my own apartment.

03:30:34.060 | As we're driving around the neighborhood, super nice.

03:30:36.860 | She's living in like, whatever, like on like

03:30:38.660 | that 20th floor or something of some huge high rise.

03:30:42.420 | Great apartment.

03:30:43.380 | We drive by and I go, "Oh, stop the car."

03:30:46.940 | And I go, "I wanna get out."

03:30:48.420 | It's one of those cone things where there's flyers

03:30:50.980 | for the house, for a house.

03:30:52.740 | I jump out and I get the flyer.

03:30:54.900 | And she's like, "What are you doing?"

03:30:56.780 | I go, "Oh, I just wanna, you know, I just look at the flyer."

03:30:59.580 | And she says, "I don't wanna do a scam here.

03:31:01.820 | "I wanna live here.

03:31:02.660 | "This place is nice.

03:31:03.500 | "I love it here."

03:31:04.340 | And I went, "Right, I understand."

03:31:06.220 | I said, "No, but I have to find an apartment."

03:31:09.300 | And she goes, "Oh, you just, I'm just so disgusting.

03:31:12.380 | "You can't stand to spend even a couple weeks with me.

03:31:15.740 | "You just," and she goes just ballistic.

03:31:18.220 | She's screaming at the top of her lungs.

03:31:21.220 | And I know she's gonna get me caught.

03:31:23.220 | She's never gonna get me out, right?

03:31:26.620 | She's already told me that.

03:31:28.540 | So we go back to the apartment, we go upstairs.

03:31:31.580 | I was so scared of this chick, bro.

03:31:36.140 | I was so scared.

03:31:36.980 | I remember I was going up in the elevator

03:31:38.980 | and this girl gets on, this clearly a stripper.

03:31:44.340 | I mean, drop dead, just, but wearing stripper clothes.

03:31:49.340 | And I'm staring, and as soon as she got on,

03:31:52.580 | Becky gave me that, whoo, with the face.

03:31:54.540 | And I'm like this.

03:31:55.500 | I'm like staring in the corner.

03:31:58.100 | And never look at the girl.

03:31:59.740 | And I remember when we get off the elevator,

03:32:01.060 | bing, it opens, I bolt off it.

03:32:04.220 | Becky bolts off the elevator.

03:32:07.460 | And I remember she squeals,

03:32:09.020 | "I bet you just love to fuck that tramp."

03:32:12.420 | And the girl, as the elevator doors are closing,

03:32:14.380 | she goes, "Hey."

03:32:15.620 | (both laughing)

03:32:17.460 | I thought that was funny.

03:32:18.580 | So I go to the apartment.

03:32:20.800 | We have a screaming match, kind of.

03:32:26.620 | I tell her I wanna split up the money.

03:32:28.660 | She tells me she's not gonna give me, split the money.

03:32:31.420 | - Why?

03:32:32.620 | - Because she said, "You can go somewhere else

03:32:36.020 | "and do this again.

03:32:37.860 | "You'll have a million dollars in six months.

03:32:41.840 | "I have to live off this money."

03:32:44.500 | - Did she threaten you?

03:32:45.740 | - Oh, she threatened the, but it was funny too,

03:32:47.740 | 'cause the conversation back and forth,

03:32:48.980 | I remember saying, "No, I want half."

03:32:50.900 | And she goes, and she said, "I'll give you $10,000."

03:32:54.260 | I said, "You're out of your mind."

03:32:55.580 | I said, "I'm telling you right now,

03:32:56.800 | "you come up with something reasonable,

03:32:57.700 | "I'll take all of it."

03:32:59.420 | And she said, what did she say?

03:33:02.380 | I said, "I'll take all of it."

03:33:03.220 | She goes, "And what?

03:33:04.040 | "Escape in that U-Haul the cops are gonna be looking for

03:33:06.740 | "in five minutes?"

03:33:08.240 | And I went, I just remember thinking, "Oh, wow."

03:33:10.380 | And keep in mind, all of my IDs, everything,

03:33:12.580 | are in the storage unit that she has a key to.

03:33:14.220 | Like, I'm not getting those, it's over.

03:33:15.900 | I got an ID right now that says my name is Michael Eckert.

03:33:19.740 | I'm driving a U-Haul van.

03:33:23.460 | - Yeah, sounds like she has a lot of negotiation leverage.

03:33:26.540 | - Right, so we start arguing back and forth,

03:33:28.460 | and she says, "$100,000.

03:33:30.420 | "I'll give you $100,000."

03:33:31.260 | I said, "I'll take it."

03:33:32.220 | She counts it out, counts out the $100,000.

03:33:35.580 | Later when I recounted, it wasn't even $100,000,

03:33:37.700 | it was like $98,000.

03:33:38.900 | That's fine, that's fine.

03:33:40.580 | But we've got them all marked, $2,000, $5,000, $6,000.

03:33:43.580 | She's like, "$2,000, $5,000, that's $12,000,

03:33:45.340 | "that's," she ends up stiffing me.

03:33:48.020 | That's fine, it's not my money.

03:33:49.500 | So I take it, I end up, I take it, I leave,

03:33:54.500 | and as I'm leaving, she'd always called me before

03:33:56.500 | on the phone and begged and pleaded and cried.

03:33:58.500 | I messed up, please give me a chance.

03:34:00.100 | I'm sorry, I'll take my medication.

03:34:02.420 | I'm sorry, I thought it was better.

03:34:03.580 | I thought it was okay.

03:34:04.420 | And I remember walking out, I put my cell phone

03:34:07.100 | on the counter and just walked out.

03:34:08.820 | Went downstairs, got in the truck and drove.

03:34:11.860 | And drove, when I got to,

03:34:19.500 | Louisiana, I stopped at Baton Rouge and got a,

03:34:23.740 | I mean, at some point I stopped and I got like,

03:34:26.620 | I think I got a room or something.

03:34:29.180 | At one point I know I stopped.

03:34:30.980 | - So you drove without a plan, essentially?

03:34:32.780 | - I drove back to Charlotte to get my car.

03:34:37.260 | - Got it.

03:34:38.100 | - So I can't be driving, I can't drive in this truck.

03:34:41.220 | So I stopped at Baton Rouge at one point

03:34:45.020 | and got a cell phone, like a burner phone,

03:34:49.340 | like a Verizon, Virgin Mobile or something.

03:34:52.820 | One of those little phones.

03:34:53.660 | So I bought one, I call a few people at home,

03:34:56.580 | back home, called my mom.

03:34:58.460 | She's in tears, crying.

03:35:01.580 | My dad's yelling in the background.

03:35:03.540 | I call--

03:35:05.340 | - What did your mom, just a small tangent,

03:35:07.500 | what did your mom and dad say?

03:35:09.340 | Did anything stand out to you?

03:35:11.460 | - My dad, "Well, I hope you're happy.

03:35:16.060 | "Your mother, every time someone mentions your name,

03:35:17.980 | "your mother cries."

03:35:20.060 | Which is funny to me, 'cause growing up,

03:35:22.380 | he was never concerned about her crying.

03:35:24.380 | So it was like, "Since when did you care?"

03:35:28.300 | I mean, my dad, he's an alcoholic.

03:35:33.580 | He's been sober for two years,

03:35:36.700 | a month and a half drunk and binge,

03:35:40.740 | or drinking, sorry, drinking binge,

03:35:42.260 | and then sober for six months, and then did it again,

03:35:44.740 | then sober, just went back and forth,

03:35:46.980 | and in and out of alcohol, drug programs.

03:35:51.980 | But like I said, worked for State Farm,

03:35:54.180 | and State Farm, he was a top-selling manager.

03:35:58.100 | And so what they would do is they'd put him

03:36:00.340 | into a 30-day program, and I mean, he has to stay there.

03:36:05.060 | And they were the only ones that had that kind of control,

03:36:07.060 | 'cause they're like, "You're gonna do this,

03:36:08.180 | "and you're gonna pass it, or we're firing you."

03:36:10.420 | He made a lot of money, and he made a lot of money

03:36:13.900 | for State Farm, and he hired and trained a ton of agents,

03:36:18.900 | and he had one of the top-performing agencies.

03:36:21.980 | So he was worth a lot to them.

03:36:23.500 | So I end up, what ends up happening is,

03:36:30.580 | I'm driving through, I get that phone

03:36:32.460 | that I was telling you about, and I call.

03:36:34.100 | So I call, talk to my mom, she's crying,

03:36:37.820 | she's like, "I love you so much,

03:36:39.220 | "I just wanna make sure you're safe."

03:36:41.780 | I end up calling Susan Barker,

03:36:43.620 | which was one of the brokers that worked for me at the time.

03:36:46.420 | Call her, and I say, "Hey, what's going on?

03:36:48.020 | "How's it going?"

03:36:48.860 | She's like, "Oh, Matt, what's going on?

03:36:50.260 | "FBI is everywhere.

03:36:52.180 | "They've been talking to everybody, they..."

03:36:54.980 | And this has been, it's like a year and a half

03:36:57.740 | at this point.

03:36:59.260 | And she's like, "It's not, they come around

03:37:02.820 | "every once in a while, everybody's gone in,

03:37:04.580 | "everybody's cooperating, everybody's talking,

03:37:06.520 | "everybody's blaming you, including her."

03:37:10.100 | And so as we're talking, she said,

03:37:12.220 | "Look, I've, the main FBI agent on the case,

03:37:17.220 | "she told me if I ever spoke with you to have you call her."

03:37:24.380 | And I was like, "Yeah, I'm good."

03:37:25.900 | So she goes, "Her name is Candace,

03:37:27.600 | "and she wants you to call her."

03:37:30.460 | She goes, "At least call her, for God's sakes,

03:37:32.140 | "maybe you could just turn yourself in.

03:37:33.380 | "Maybe you can negotiate just like a couple of years,

03:37:36.300 | "like a, 'cause if they're not gonna catch you,

03:37:38.760 | "then maybe turn yourself in, maybe it'll help,

03:37:40.480 | "at least hear her out."

03:37:41.500 | And I was like, "Okay, all right, you're right.

03:37:42.860 | "Hang up the phone, I call Candace."

03:37:44.780 | She picks up the phone, I go, "Hey."

03:37:46.520 | I said, she goes, "Who's this?"

03:37:47.360 | And I go, "This is Matt Cox."

03:37:49.200 | And she goes, "Hey, hello, Mr. Cox.

03:37:51.900 | "How are you?"

03:37:52.740 | And I go, "I'm doing okay, how's it going?

03:37:54.580 | "I understand you wanna talk to me."

03:37:55.640 | She goes, "I do."

03:37:56.480 | I said, "What can I do for you?"

03:37:57.300 | She goes, "You can turn yourself in."

03:37:58.140 | I go, "Well, that's not gonna happen."

03:37:59.740 | I said, "What else do you need?"

03:38:01.460 | And she said, "I think that you should think

03:38:03.580 | "about turning yourself in."

03:38:04.540 | I said, "Why?

03:38:05.380 | "Well, what am I looking at?"

03:38:06.200 | She goes, "Well, that's not how it works.

03:38:08.500 | "The way it works is you turn yourself in,

03:38:10.780 | "and we take that into consideration."

03:38:13.500 | I said, "No, no, no, no."

03:38:14.860 | I said, "That's not good enough."

03:38:15.820 | I said, "I'm not stupid enough to turn myself in

03:38:17.720 | "and hope for the best."

03:38:18.940 | So she says, "Well, let's talk about this."

03:38:24.940 | And I said, "Well, what am I looking at?"

03:38:26.180 | And she goes, "I don't really know.

03:38:27.020 | "I can't really, I can't tell you that."

03:38:30.740 | And I said, "Well, then we don't really have anything

03:38:33.160 | "to talk about."

03:38:34.000 | She goes, "Well, wait a second."

03:38:34.820 | She said, "Let me, hold on.

03:38:35.900 | "Let me call the US attorney.

03:38:37.020 | "Maybe we can work something out."

03:38:38.380 | So she calls the US, so I said, "Okay, I'll call you back."

03:38:42.460 | And she said, "Well, give me your phone number.

03:38:48.260 | "I'll call you."

03:38:49.500 | And I went, "No, no, no."

03:38:50.340 | I said, "I'll call you."

03:38:51.380 | I said, "I'm gonna hang up the phone.

03:38:52.260 | "I'm gonna turn the phone off."

03:38:53.380 | I said, "For all I know, you're triangulating

03:38:55.120 | "this phone call right now or something."

03:38:57.220 | And she goes, "Oh, give me a break."

03:38:58.860 | She goes, "You're not that important."

03:39:00.940 | And I remember thinking, "Who do you think you are?"

03:39:05.180 | Like, right, you're just some little fraudster guy

03:39:09.700 | running around, you know?

03:39:10.980 | Like, you're not a terrorist, you know?

03:39:14.260 | And I almost, I almost was like, "Okay, here's my number."

03:39:19.260 | Which she probably already had.

03:39:23.260 | But I almost was like, "Okay, I'll wait for your call."

03:39:25.920 | And left my phone on.

03:39:26.760 | I said, "No, you know what?"

03:39:27.580 | I said, "I'm gonna hang up the phone.

03:39:28.420 | "I'm gonna turn it off anyway and I'll call you back."

03:39:30.660 | She's, "All right, whatever."

03:39:31.580 | I hang up.

03:39:32.660 | I turn off the phone.

03:39:33.860 | It turns out, I found out later

03:39:35.100 | when I ordered the Freedom of Information Act,

03:39:37.060 | she actually immediately called the U.S. Marshals

03:39:39.020 | and they immediately called, took the phone number

03:39:41.100 | and tracked back the phone and immediately had two marshals

03:39:44.500 | from Baton Rouge go immediately to the place

03:39:48.780 | where I had been.

03:39:49.980 | - Damn. - Oh, listen.

03:39:53.140 | Yeah, I mean-- - They work fast.

03:39:54.660 | - Yeah, she's-- - And she's good, too.

03:39:56.540 | - Not just that.

03:39:57.380 | I made the initial calls sitting there

03:40:00.220 | in that where I went and bought the phone.

03:40:02.740 | It was like a gas station.

03:40:03.820 | There was also like a subway station.

03:40:05.700 | I had ordered like a subway.

03:40:06.860 | I was eating a subway, playing on my computer,

03:40:09.100 | programmed the phone and making phone calls.

03:40:11.220 | So by the time I talked to her and they're driving,

03:40:15.940 | by that point, I walked and got into my vehicle

03:40:18.860 | and I leave.

03:40:20.060 | But who knows?

03:40:20.900 | I don't know if they showed up 30 minutes late.

03:40:22.260 | I don't know.

03:40:23.100 | I could have hung out.

03:40:24.260 | Like, "Oh, I'm just gonna finish my food."

03:40:26.100 | Could have shown up.

03:40:27.100 | So I go, I call her back an hour or two later.

03:40:31.740 | She says, "Listen."

03:40:32.780 | First time, he hadn't got back with her.

03:40:37.100 | Then he did.

03:40:38.060 | Then he came back.

03:40:38.900 | He said, "Seven years.

03:40:39.720 | "He's gotta turn himself in here."

03:40:41.740 | So okay, seven years, that seems like a lot.

03:40:45.740 | And I was like, "Seven years."

03:40:46.580 | And I kept saying, "Is that seven years for everything?"

03:40:51.460 | And she goes, "Yeah, that's for everything."

03:40:53.860 | I was like, "That's everything?"

03:40:54.980 | Like everything that happened like in Atlanta,

03:40:58.860 | like some stuff that you don't know about.

03:41:00.900 | She said, "Look, what's important

03:41:01.960 | "is you turn yourself in in Tampa."

03:41:04.700 | And I was like, "Okay, well, I'm closer to Atlanta.

03:41:07.420 | "Why wouldn't I turn myself in in Atlanta?"

03:41:10.440 | And she's like, "Look, you don't wanna do that.

03:41:13.180 | "You don't wanna do that."

03:41:14.020 | Well, 'cause that would have been the Secret Service

03:41:15.340 | would have gotten credit if I'd walked in there, right?

03:41:18.100 | So, and I don't know anything about rivalries

03:41:21.580 | and how they work.

03:41:22.420 | At that time, I do now.

03:41:24.420 | But so, we go back and forth, back and forth.

03:41:26.780 | And I continually ask her,

03:41:27.900 | "Does that include Atlanta and everything?"

03:41:30.060 | And at some point, I realized like,

03:41:31.300 | "Oh, she's just not answering."

03:41:33.180 | And so finally, I said,

03:41:34.980 | "Listen, you keep dodging this question."

03:41:37.520 | And she said, "All I can speak for is Tampa.

03:41:42.960 | "So if you come back to Tampa

03:41:44.860 | "and you cooperate against everyone, seven years."

03:41:49.940 | And she's telling me,

03:41:52.780 | she wants me to cooperate against my ex-wife.

03:41:55.320 | And I'm like, "I'm not gonna do that."

03:41:57.080 | I said, "My ex-wife didn't do anything.

03:41:59.100 | "She doesn't know anything.

03:42:00.480 | "She didn't do anything.

03:42:01.360 | "She's never, you know, well, that's not what I heard."

03:42:03.800 | And then she's going on and on.

03:42:05.700 | And I was like, "No, no."

03:42:07.380 | I was like, "Oh, wow."

03:42:08.220 | I was like, "So that's just for?"

03:42:09.860 | And she's like, "That's right."

03:42:10.740 | I said, "All right, we're done."

03:42:11.860 | She's, "No, wait, I can call the Atlanta U.S. Attorney."

03:42:15.420 | I said, "Nah, lady, I wouldn't believe you

03:42:16.720 | "if you told me water was wet.

03:42:18.440 | "I don't trust you."

03:42:19.340 | And I hung up the phone, threw it out the window.

03:42:21.980 | And I end up going to Charlotte,

03:42:25.460 | drop off the U-Haul van,

03:42:29.460 | go to my, I never did,

03:42:33.540 | I actually brought it back to the dealer.

03:42:35.260 | Like, it's not like I abandoned it, I brought it back.

03:42:38.480 | So I bring it back.

03:42:40.500 | I go to my old apartment in downtown Charlotte.

03:42:43.320 | And I remember thinking I would be okay.

03:42:46.340 | I know by this point that they knew Michael Eckert's name.

03:42:51.340 | They had the address in Charlotte.

03:42:55.660 | So I know they, by this point, it's been five, six days.

03:42:59.140 | So I know they've tracked him back there.

03:43:01.360 | So I figured if I could get my car, I'm fine.

03:43:05.340 | So I go into the apartment complex,

03:43:06.900 | and it's like five,

03:43:07.900 | it's one of those four, five, six-story apartment.

03:43:11.180 | Those are parking things that stack up.

03:43:14.480 | So I go into this underground,

03:43:16.780 | it's not underground, but whatever,

03:43:17.860 | this parking garage thing.

03:43:19.380 | So I go in, I'm on like the third floor or something.

03:43:21.380 | I look at my car, and I get in my car.

03:43:25.060 | And I remember as soon as I drove out of the parking garage,

03:43:27.620 | I was like, whew, I'm good.

03:43:29.980 | So I can go ahead and pull across the street

03:43:32.020 | and stop at Starbucks.

03:43:33.820 | So I stop at Starbucks.

03:43:35.620 | I walk into Starbucks, I order a Starbucks.

03:43:38.140 | I'm standing there waiting for the barista.

03:43:39.940 | I look over, and it's two people

03:43:42.380 | from the apartment complex, staring at me.

03:43:45.640 | Like that's what I'm like,

03:43:49.040 | and they're whispering and pointing.

03:43:51.160 | And I remember thinking this is like the fifth of the month.

03:43:53.880 | I hadn't paid my rent, hadn't been there.

03:43:56.120 | So I thought-- - That makes sense.

03:43:58.380 | - Maybe they, like I'm picturing an eviction notice

03:44:01.080 | or a three-day notice on my door or something.

03:44:03.380 | And I'm like, okay.

03:44:04.560 | And then one of them bolts out the back, the woman,

03:44:07.260 | there's a guy and a girl.

03:44:08.120 | The woman runs out the back.

03:44:09.880 | He's standing there staring at me.

03:44:11.380 | I get my venti vanilla latte, right?

03:44:16.380 | I get my little, I get my frou-frou drink.

03:44:19.660 | So I got my frou-frou drink.

03:44:21.120 | I walk out, I get into the car.

03:44:23.040 | He follows me.

03:44:24.760 | Get in the car, I set everything up.

03:44:26.400 | I put my seatbelt on, I'm okay.

03:44:27.920 | He's standing there staring at me.

03:44:30.120 | I'm thinking something's wrong, like what's up?

03:44:32.640 | And I check to see there's no traffic, I'm good.

03:44:36.340 | I'm about to leave, and he starts screaming.

03:44:39.880 | He's right here, he's right here.

03:44:41.900 | I look in the rear view mirror.

03:44:43.420 | There's two guys running towards the back of my car.

03:44:46.620 | I punch it and I take off.

03:44:49.120 | Sounds dramatic, wasn't that dramatic.

03:44:51.900 | I'd already, there was no cars.

03:44:53.140 | I knew there was no cars already pulling out.

03:44:55.240 | You know, it wasn't like a TJ hooker

03:44:56.660 | where I jumped over the, slid across the hood and slung,

03:45:00.300 | you know, they didn't catch the car and hang on the back.

03:45:03.020 | But you know, so they're running and I boom, hit it.

03:45:06.620 | - Did you spill the coffee or?

03:45:08.100 | - No, 'cause it was one of those little things.

03:45:09.340 | It was actually nice, but it just sounded--

03:45:10.740 | - You're making it sound like you were pretty calm.

03:45:12.600 | Weren't you panicking here?

03:45:13.440 | - I was terrified, terrified.

03:45:16.300 | - So you're under fear, you still operate like--

03:45:21.180 | - Yeah, I operate, like I-- - Calmly.

03:45:22.980 | - It's funny you say that because the secret service,

03:45:27.940 | when they talk to these guys,

03:45:29.520 | they, all the people that they spoke with

03:45:32.620 | said the same thing over and over again.

03:45:35.140 | The guy was a professional.

03:45:36.300 | He never seemed upset, he never seemed agitated.

03:45:40.460 | He always, he was never in a hurry.

03:45:43.480 | - Yeah.

03:45:44.320 | - He, you know, like, but most of the time I wasn't

03:45:48.580 | because I, you know, it wasn't until the police

03:45:50.220 | got involved or the federal law enforcement got involved

03:45:53.220 | that I started really, you know, getting anxious.

03:45:57.100 | So at that point, I drive, I take off.

03:46:00.480 | I drive about a mile down the road.

03:46:02.260 | - Who were the two guys, by the way?

03:46:04.260 | - I thought it was FBI.

03:46:05.420 | I ordered the Freedom of Information Act

03:46:07.060 | when I got to prison at some point, you know, in the future.

03:46:10.180 | And it was U.S. Marshals, all right, so--

03:46:14.540 | - Sounds pretty dramatic to me.

03:46:15.780 | U.S. Marshals running towards your car, you pull, I mean.

03:46:18.300 | - I mean-- - You know, but it's all right.

03:46:20.340 | - It's hard not to tell it like it's dramatic.

03:46:22.260 | - I understand.

03:46:23.220 | But it was, there's not much traffic, it was okay.

03:46:25.140 | - Yeah, it's not like their, you know,

03:46:26.740 | their fingers were at the back of the car,

03:46:28.620 | they're holding on, you know.

03:46:29.780 | But it was, yeah, if I had waited an extra 20 seconds,

03:46:32.900 | yeah, they would've been on my car.

03:46:34.020 | They would've been right there at the door.

03:46:34.860 | - Did you consider giving up there, or no?

03:46:37.860 | - No, all I could think of was haul,

03:46:41.580 | listen, my instinct is get out, is go, go, go, go, go, go.

03:46:44.540 | - You're already on the run.

03:46:45.820 | - I'm already in trouble.

03:46:47.060 | It's not like they're gonna add anything.

03:46:49.740 | Although, to be honest, you know, it only got worse

03:46:52.460 | because at that point, actually, at that point,

03:46:54.260 | I drive down the road, I stop at a homeless facility,

03:46:56.500 | I survey three guys.

03:46:58.100 | I'm a mile down the road.

03:46:59.540 | Like, looking back on it, I think, what were you thinking?

03:47:02.700 | But there were three homeless guys

03:47:05.860 | that were in their early 30s,

03:47:07.740 | and they were all Caucasian.

03:47:09.380 | That's hard to find.

03:47:10.660 | So trust me, I've looked, spent hours

03:47:13.300 | before finding these guys.

03:47:15.060 | - So that's like the golden thing you're looking for

03:47:18.340 | is white guys in their 30s.

03:47:20.420 | - Right, 'cause I was in my 30s,

03:47:22.220 | I wasn't an old man like I am now.

03:47:23.900 | So I survey them, I drive straight to Nashville,

03:47:28.900 | get to Nashville, drive through an area

03:47:32.060 | called Greenhills.

03:47:33.460 | Well, at first, when I got to Nashville,

03:47:38.740 | I stayed the night, and the next day,

03:47:40.780 | I went into, I'm gonna say a UPS store.

03:47:44.060 | It was actually a Kinko's.

03:47:45.140 | There used to be, they used to be called Kinko's, but--

03:47:47.620 | - I can't remember Kinko's.

03:47:49.220 | They got bought by FedEx, I feel like.

03:47:52.500 | - Oh, was it FedEx, okay.

03:47:53.940 | Then it was a FedEx store.

03:47:54.780 | So I go in there-- - I love Kinko's.

03:47:56.340 | - And you give 'em like 50 bucks or something,

03:47:58.220 | or 20 bucks or something,

03:47:59.180 | they'd give you like 100 business cards.

03:48:01.140 | So I go get a phone number, a burner phone.

03:48:05.200 | I go in there, I make up, oh, I call and get a phone number

03:48:08.460 | from HQ, the local HQ.

03:48:10.460 | I come up with a name, Manufactured Funding Group.

03:48:13.500 | I've got two phone numbers.

03:48:14.740 | I get business cards made with a name.

03:48:17.580 | One of the guys' name that I surveyed was,

03:48:19.680 | his actual name was Joseph Marion Carter Jr.

03:48:24.940 | I went by Carter.

03:48:25.840 | So I get business cards made of Joseph Carter.

03:48:29.940 | I then drive through Greenhills.

03:48:32.380 | Took 'em like an hour to get the card.

03:48:34.380 | So I'm driving through Greenhills.

03:48:35.940 | I'm planning on going to an apartment,

03:48:37.820 | but I'm still, I don't have an ID, I don't have anything.

03:48:39.900 | Like I'm wondering, what am I gonna do?

03:48:41.340 | How am I gonna get a place to stay?

03:48:42.520 | I'm gonna stay in a hotel, like what am I doing?

03:48:44.500 | I'm using an ID that the cops are looking for.

03:48:47.460 | So as I'm driving,

03:48:50.700 | trying to find this big apartment complex,

03:48:52.660 | there's a guy putting a sign in the front yard

03:48:55.100 | of like a townhouse, 'cause several townhouses.

03:48:58.540 | And I, probably in his 60s,

03:49:00.260 | I pull in, jump out of the car, and I said,

03:49:02.820 | "Hey, is that this for rent?"

03:49:04.020 | He said, "Yes, it is."

03:49:05.820 | I said, "Oh, okay, yeah, can I see it?"

03:49:07.980 | "Sure."

03:49:08.820 | I go in, check it out, come back downstairs.

03:49:12.420 | It's perfect.

03:49:13.460 | I said, "Listen, I work for a company,

03:49:16.700 | "manufactured funding group."

03:49:17.740 | Boom, hand him the thing.

03:49:18.580 | I said, "I've been in Europe for the last,"

03:49:22.660 | and I forget what I said.

03:49:23.500 | I said, "England."

03:49:24.320 | I said, "A little town outside of London."

03:49:26.020 | Then, whatever, Dexter, London for the past five years.

03:49:29.060 | I don't really have any credit,

03:49:30.620 | but I said, "I can put down double the security deposit

03:49:33.160 | "or whatever you need.

03:49:34.000 | "Here's my business card."

03:49:35.100 | He looked at me, and he looked at my car,

03:49:38.520 | and he goes, "You look like an honest young man."

03:49:43.100 | He said, "I'll take the first month's rent and deposit."

03:49:48.100 | And he said, "Now, go get a lease right now."

03:49:51.540 | And I said, "Okay."

03:49:52.380 | And I said, "Oh, okay."

03:49:53.780 | Filled out a lease right then,

03:49:55.660 | gave me the keys.

03:49:56.700 | Nice, very trusting in that town.

03:50:02.860 | - Oh, yeah, but there must have been

03:50:04.060 | also something about you where you're just--

03:50:06.420 | - I mean, I don't--

03:50:07.340 | - Got a nice car.

03:50:09.080 | - I know you're gonna get a lot of comments

03:50:10.540 | that say, "White privilege," but I--

03:50:13.360 | (laughing)

03:50:14.200 | That's what you're--

03:50:15.020 | - I think the charisma has something to do with it.

03:50:18.060 | - Well, so he gave, I appreciate that.

03:50:20.460 | So, he gave me the keys.

03:50:22.960 | Listen, I ordered all of Joseph Carter's vital information,

03:50:27.960 | like all of his birth certificate,

03:50:32.880 | social security card, everything, that night,

03:50:36.580 | from Kinko's or some of the, I forget where,

03:50:39.800 | but from one of these places.

03:50:41.040 | I went online.

03:50:41.900 | You could go online back then.

03:50:43.280 | There wasn't Wi-Fi everywhere.

03:50:44.680 | So I ordered the stuff.

03:50:46.680 | It shows up a couple days later.

03:50:48.720 | I take that information.

03:50:50.920 | I go and I get a driver's license.

03:50:53.300 | Remember within seven or eight days,

03:50:56.120 | I've got a driver's license in his name.

03:50:58.280 | I get in that car, Michael Eckert's car.

03:51:01.440 | I drive it all the way back to Nashville.

03:51:03.020 | I leave it in long-term parking.

03:51:04.960 | Get on a plane, fly back to Nashville.

03:51:07.020 | Go in and buy myself a brand new car.

03:51:10.680 | Wasn't brand new, it was a couple years old.

03:51:12.280 | But from CarMax, within two weeks,

03:51:16.000 | I am completely 100% set up.

03:51:19.000 | I start dating for three, four months.

03:51:21.200 | That gets really boring.

03:51:22.460 | - Where again?

03:51:25.240 | Nashville, you said?

03:51:26.060 | - Nashville. - Okay, got it.

03:51:26.900 | - So I start dating a bunch of chicks.

03:51:28.800 | And then I end up meeting this one girl.

03:51:30.280 | - By the way, are you lonely here

03:51:31.560 | 'cause you're on the run?

03:51:32.760 | - Man, listen, I'm telling you right now,

03:51:34.360 | being on the run was the best part of my life.

03:51:38.140 | - Really?

03:51:38.980 | - Everybody, you know how all these guys say,

03:51:41.160 | it was horrible, and I was always so concerned

03:51:43.880 | and looking over my shoulder, and it wasn't, I wasn't.

03:51:47.280 | Keep in mind, I've gotten five or six traffic tickets

03:51:50.940 | while on the run.

03:51:51.960 | I went to traffic school as someone else.

03:51:54.340 | I got so many traffic tickets in his name,

03:51:56.220 | I went to traffic school as him.

03:51:58.300 | Like if I got pulled over, I'm not concerned.

03:52:00.640 | - So your confidence just was over the top here.

03:52:03.880 | - Driving a vehicle in the name of the driver's license

03:52:06.640 | that I have that was issued by that state,

03:52:09.440 | full coverage insurance, I'm not an idiot.

03:52:12.240 | I'm not driving around a stolen car

03:52:14.040 | with a broken taillight and a body in the trunk.

03:52:16.920 | I'm covered, like I'm not concerned about the local cops.

03:52:19.820 | - Plus you're going to Starbucks, sipping your coffee

03:52:23.720 | and driving away from a U.S. Marshal.

03:52:25.840 | - Right, right, that was--

03:52:27.160 | - You could start believing that it's impossible to catch you.

03:52:30.000 | - That is exactly what it is.

03:52:31.320 | It's every time, I just kept getting more and more emboldened,

03:52:34.400 | more and more cocky, arrogant,

03:52:36.720 | like they're not gonna catch me, I'm too good.

03:52:39.180 | You know, which is great until they catch you.

03:52:41.880 | And so I meet a girl named Amanda Gardner,

03:52:47.120 | well, what I end up doing is,

03:52:49.560 | keep in mind, I've only got 100,000 or so.

03:52:52.000 | So I go and I start buying houses in the area,

03:52:56.600 | in this area called JC Napier,

03:52:58.360 | next to, it's just close to downtown.

03:53:01.120 | And I buy these houses and I start,

03:53:03.240 | I buy 'em for like 60, 70,000

03:53:05.360 | and I record the sales at 210, 190,

03:53:09.360 | 2205, that sort of thing.

03:53:11.200 | Same thing, and I refinance the house

03:53:13.360 | as I start pulling out money.

03:53:16.040 | I meet this girl, Amanda Gardner,

03:53:18.880 | she, we hit it off within a few months,

03:53:21.040 | she's moved in to, we move into a house in that area.

03:53:24.160 | I renovate a house, we move in there.

03:53:26.820 | I borrow three and a half million dollars

03:53:30.500 | and I'm buying houses now.

03:53:31.720 | I'm buying houses, recording the value.

03:53:33.280 | I start all over, you know, I borrow like,

03:53:35.400 | whatever, three and a half million dollars.

03:53:37.080 | I meet Amanda, we move in together.

03:53:39.740 | We're buying--

03:53:42.160 | - Do you tell her?

03:53:43.160 | Do you tell her about--

03:53:44.000 | - She kind of, you know, what she knew was that,

03:53:45.960 | you know, it's odd, right?

03:53:48.600 | I have no photographs.

03:53:50.040 | Everything I own is brand new.

03:53:52.040 | She's like, you don't, there's nothing in this house

03:53:56.240 | that's more than four months old, or six months old.

03:53:59.040 | You have no photographs.

03:54:00.480 | You have no internet presence.

03:54:02.320 | You have no, you know, it's,

03:54:04.100 | every stick of clothing is brand new.

03:54:06.680 | You don't have old pairs of jeans.

03:54:08.680 | - Do you tell her stories about the past of anything?

03:54:11.080 | Is there a fabricated--

03:54:12.960 | - Initially, there was a fabricated version

03:54:15.360 | that I owned a mortgage company.

03:54:17.500 | My typical story was, like, I owned a mortgage company

03:54:21.540 | and I got bought out by a household bank.

03:54:24.200 | Started doing very well.

03:54:25.580 | I got bought out by a household bank.

03:54:27.160 | I have a non-compete clause.

03:54:29.160 | I got, you know, I ended up with like half a million dollars

03:54:31.760 | after paying off all my bills,

03:54:34.080 | and just decided to kind of travel around the US,

03:54:36.560 | and now I'm here and I'm gonna start renovating houses.

03:54:39.720 | But that, you know, you don't call home.

03:54:43.000 | Nobody calls you.

03:54:44.280 | Your family doesn't call you.

03:54:45.420 | You tell stories about your mom, your dad,

03:54:47.620 | your brother, your sister, friends.

03:54:49.680 | I don't know any of these friends.

03:54:50.720 | Never seen any of these friends.

03:54:51.800 | They never call you.

03:54:52.880 | They never, you know, it's just like, it's like, ah, shit.

03:54:55.680 | So at some point, I basically just said to her, look,

03:54:58.480 | I'm, listen, at one point, I had to have a check cut.

03:55:04.760 | I refinanced the house, right?

03:55:06.200 | And I had, like, I wanna say,

03:55:08.520 | I'm gonna say something like, it might've been 30,000,

03:55:10.480 | but let's say 20,000.

03:55:11.320 | And I had a $20,000 check cut to Amanda Gardner.

03:55:15.080 | 'Cause you have to have these checks.

03:55:16.080 | You can't have 'em cut to me.

03:55:17.520 | So I would say, hey, there's a second mortgage on there,

03:55:19.960 | and I'd provide a second mortgage,

03:55:21.200 | or I'd provide, you know, I'd provide different things.

03:55:22.720 | And I knew, I need names of people to cut these things to.

03:55:27.160 | So I had a check cut for whatever.

03:55:29.520 | So I remember we're at dinner one night.

03:55:30.920 | This is before she really knows who I am.

03:55:32.600 | And I said, hey, I said, oh, and she goes,

03:55:34.800 | oh, did you have to refinance?

03:55:35.760 | She goes, how'd that thing go?

03:55:36.640 | You were refinancing?

03:55:37.480 | I go, oh, thank God you said that.

03:55:39.080 | Boom, I said, I need you to deposit this.

03:55:41.680 | Give her a check for 20,000.

03:55:42.720 | She's like, I can go tomorrow, and I can deposit it.

03:55:47.720 | And I'm like, no, no, I'm like, look, it's fine,

03:55:52.240 | just deposit it.

03:55:53.080 | She's like, I can get, as soon as it clears,

03:55:54.040 | I'll get you a cashier's check.

03:55:56.160 | I was like, no, just deposit it and keep it in your bank.

03:55:59.360 | It's fine.

03:56:01.040 | So she's like, what is going on?

03:56:04.160 | You know, and so we have this conversation,

03:56:06.840 | and I tell her, look, people are looking for me.

03:56:11.200 | Who?

03:56:12.040 | Law enforcement.

03:56:12.860 | Which ones?

03:56:13.700 | All of 'em.

03:56:14.560 | You know, she's like, that doesn't even, for what?

03:56:17.700 | I go, mostly bank fraud.

03:56:22.580 | And she's like, well, how are they not finding you?

03:56:26.600 | I mean, everybody, you know, people know you.

03:56:29.000 | Like, you know, your general contractor,

03:56:30.880 | which I met four months before.

03:56:32.640 | This guy six months before, this one two months before.

03:56:34.840 | You know, she's like, so-and-so, so-and-so, so,

03:56:36.880 | and I'm like, right, right, well.

03:56:38.560 | I said, well, she's like, I mean, they've got your name.

03:56:41.000 | They've got your, I go, well, that's identity theft.

03:56:43.440 | And she was like, what do you mean?

03:56:45.600 | I said, well, my name's not, you know, my name's not,

03:56:48.160 | it's not Joseph Carter.

03:56:49.440 | And what is your name?

03:56:51.960 | I go, look, you know, it's, you don't even worry about it.

03:56:55.720 | This is what's happening.

03:56:57.840 | This is where I'm at.

03:56:58.680 | And this has been months into the relationship.

03:56:59.960 | I mean, this is, I'd say maybe a month or two in.

03:57:03.040 | But, you know, she was just too inquisitive.

03:57:06.120 | And, oh, I know what it was.

03:57:07.200 | She found like $40,000 in cash in my freezer one night.

03:57:12.200 | That was another thing that happened.

03:57:15.120 | She went to get a Popsicle and she opened up the flip

03:57:19.480 | to get a Popsicle and she opened the wrong one

03:57:22.320 | and it was all cash.

03:57:24.760 | And she was like, like, you know, I, the other day,

03:57:26.880 | you know, in this conversation, the other day,

03:57:28.440 | I opened up the Popsicle box and there's cash.

03:57:30.760 | And I'm like, so I kind of explain it,

03:57:33.440 | but I had a feeling she's not gonna,

03:57:35.720 | she's gonna be okay with this, you know?

03:57:37.800 | - So she was okay.

03:57:38.640 | - She was okay with it.

03:57:39.720 | - I mean, to me, that's just a fascinating conversation

03:57:42.160 | to have, like.

03:57:43.400 | - It was a great conversation.

03:57:44.960 | - 'Cause oftentimes in relationships,

03:57:46.640 | you learn about each other and you find out new things

03:57:49.040 | and here you find out.

03:57:49.880 | - That's a doozy.

03:57:50.840 | - Yeah, it's a good one to find out.

03:57:52.640 | The name you're using is not your real name.

03:57:57.800 | And the Secret Service, the FBI,

03:58:00.280 | and everybody else are looking for you.

03:58:02.500 | - Yeah.

03:58:03.340 | - And you're, like, to be honest,

03:58:04.640 | you're not a violent criminal.

03:58:06.560 | So it's like, you know.

03:58:08.780 | - But she didn't know my name.

03:58:10.280 | Like, she was like, she, and I told her,

03:58:13.960 | I said, look, if you start digging,

03:58:15.280 | if you find out my name, like, I'll leave.

03:58:17.120 | Like, there's certain things that catch you.

03:58:19.600 | Staying in contact with people that you know,

03:58:23.080 | that's how you get caught, you know?

03:58:24.760 | Going back to see people, that's how you get caught,

03:58:27.080 | you know?

03:58:28.000 | Telling people who you are, that's how you get caught.

03:58:30.840 | And I was like, so, I'm Joseph Carter.

03:58:34.060 | Everything's fine.

03:58:36.320 | And she was like, okay.

03:58:38.600 | You know, and keep in mind, too,

03:58:40.320 | this girl, do you, oh, your car's broken?

03:58:43.960 | Or your car's not doing well?

03:58:45.560 | Take it and trade it in.

03:58:46.440 | We'll go get you another car.

03:58:47.320 | We'll go get you, you know, an Infiniti FX or whatever,

03:58:51.200 | you know, a $55,000, $60,000 vehicle.

03:58:53.720 | She's driving the equivalent of a beat-up old Nova.

03:58:57.520 | You know, I mean, it's, you wanna go on vacation?

03:58:59.920 | We'll go on vacation.

03:59:00.760 | You wanna do this?

03:59:01.600 | You wanna do that?

03:59:02.420 | So, you know, we're buying houses.

03:59:04.280 | We're renovating houses.

03:59:06.080 | We're building brand new houses.

03:59:08.040 | We're buying lots.

03:59:09.160 | Like, she's like in the middle of this, like, holy Jesus.

03:59:12.700 | There's hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank,

03:59:15.080 | in our bank account, her bank account.

03:59:17.920 | I open up a corporation in her name.

03:59:20.040 | She's opening a bank account.

03:59:21.520 | She's got web, there's websites.

03:59:23.320 | It's a lot.

03:59:24.960 | And while this is happening,

03:59:28.320 | we start seeing a friend of hers.

03:59:34.620 | So, this other girl comes in the picture.

03:59:37.200 | Her name's Trina.

03:59:38.540 | And Trina is

03:59:41.960 | semi-lesbian?

03:59:46.440 | So--

03:59:47.280 | - Is this like a sexual thing?

03:59:49.880 | - Yeah, so-- - Or actual relationship?

03:59:51.400 | - No, it's more like she's coming over

03:59:53.720 | a couple times a week.

03:59:55.240 | So, we've got a ton going on.

03:59:57.820 | And, how do I put this?

04:00:03.240 | So, while this is happening,

04:00:05.720 | I end up coming out in, like, several magazines.

04:00:09.140 | So, I'm thinking this whole thing's dying down.

04:00:12.760 | But it's not dying down.

04:00:13.960 | Because now I just got caught and handcuffed in a bank,

04:00:16.520 | walked out of the police station, outran marshals.

04:00:19.480 | Although, that part, the marshal thing,

04:00:21.720 | never, was never in the papers.

04:00:24.400 | But, the getting caught and handcuffed in the bank,

04:00:28.400 | when that hit the papers, that's everywhere, bro.

04:00:30.760 | That's huge, you know?

04:00:31.880 | Suddenly, Chicago Tribune's running a series,

04:00:34.160 | The Fugitives.

04:00:36.080 | I'm in Bloomberg Businessweek.

04:00:37.720 | They run an article called, you know,

04:00:40.000 | "Sharks in the Housing Pool."

04:00:42.400 | Then you've got, Fortune Magazine comes out with a thing.

04:00:45.160 | Because by now, guess what?

04:00:46.520 | Becky's been caught.

04:00:48.680 | - Oh, Becky.

04:00:49.520 | - Becky.

04:00:50.360 | Oh, Becky.

04:00:51.180 | - Is she in Houston or whatever?

04:00:52.360 | - In Houston, got caught.

04:00:54.080 | - And, did she?

04:00:55.760 | - But, gangster, bro.

04:00:57.440 | Like, the way she, here's the thing.

04:00:58.540 | - Hey, hey, there you go.

04:01:00.480 | - No, oh no, she told on me immediately.

04:01:02.440 | - Oh, she did?

04:01:03.360 | Oh, no.

04:01:04.200 | - It's fine, she did the right thing.

04:01:05.640 | So, here's what's funny about that, though.

04:01:06.960 | - I don't know about that.

04:01:08.200 | - She, here's what she says.

04:01:09.960 | - Loyalty's everything in this world, my friend.

04:01:12.080 | That, you and I disagree on.

04:01:13.480 | - I just took off.

04:01:14.800 | I just took off.

04:01:15.760 | - Still.

04:01:16.600 | - And, then, I caught her and left her with,

04:01:18.480 | listen, with like five or $600,000 is what I left her with.

04:01:22.720 | - It's not all about money, Matthew.

04:01:25.840 | It's also about just, you know, ride or die.

04:01:29.640 | There's a meaning to that.

04:01:30.840 | - Oh, my God.

04:01:31.680 | - I'm sorry.

04:01:32.500 | Go ahead, go ahead.

04:01:33.600 | She told on, she said everything.

04:01:35.520 | - Well, here's what, when I say gangster,

04:01:37.080 | when she gets caught.

04:01:38.600 | - Yeah.

04:01:39.440 | - They come in, she's in the middle of beauty school.

04:01:43.000 | She's paid for beauty school.

04:01:44.520 | She's going through beauty school.

04:01:45.560 | She's going to open like a salon or something.

04:01:47.280 | So, she's in there cutting hair in a class,

04:01:49.240 | you know, on a mannequin.

04:01:50.120 | And, all of a sudden, like five or six

04:01:52.960 | Secret Service agents come in, guns drawn, screaming,

04:01:56.200 | "Get on the ground, get on the ground."

04:01:57.680 | She said, "Everybody drop the ground."

04:01:59.440 | She said, "I'm sitting there with scissors going."

04:02:01.640 | You know, they grab her, they handcuff her.

04:02:05.560 | They bring her in.

04:02:06.440 | And, the whole time, now, at that point, she was Rebecca,

04:02:09.080 | well, she was, her name was Rebecca Hickey.

04:02:11.880 | She went by Becca.

04:02:13.320 | So, she's Rebecca Hickey,

04:02:15.440 | which is, you know, she's got a Texas driver's license,

04:02:17.840 | the whole thing.

04:02:18.960 | And, they're screaming at her.

04:02:21.040 | And, they put her in the car,

04:02:22.360 | and they're driving the whole way.

04:02:23.680 | She goes, the guy, the Secret Service agent told me,

04:02:26.240 | 45 minutes, she's telling us, "You're losing your job, bro.

04:02:30.320 | "You're losing."

04:02:31.240 | I mean, he's like, "I couldn't believe it.

04:02:33.200 | "Like, we've got pictures of her."

04:02:34.800 | We're like, "This is you."

04:02:35.640 | She's like, "That's not me.

04:02:37.560 | "Are you insane?

04:02:39.240 | "Look at that chubby little thing."

04:02:40.840 | I'm like, "Great, she's..."

04:02:42.920 | Would not budge till they actually put her hand

04:02:45.520 | on the scanner.

04:02:46.560 | And, she goes, "Okay, I'm Rebecca Houk.

04:02:48.760 | "What do you need?"

04:02:49.760 | They're like, "Where's Matt Cox?"

04:02:51.840 | She's like, "I have no idea.

04:02:52.680 | "That fucker left me like a year ago."

04:02:55.200 | So...

04:02:56.040 | - But, she contributed to the story,

04:03:00.000 | to the legend that's already growing.

04:03:01.760 | - Oh, because she was interviewed by Fortune Magazine.

04:03:05.800 | And, it was horrendous.

04:03:07.560 | The article is horrendous.

04:03:08.960 | He was abusive.

04:03:10.960 | He's a Don Juan that forced me to fall in love with him,

04:03:14.880 | commit mortgage fraud,

04:03:16.320 | and then took all the money and left.

04:03:19.240 | By the way, they found like 40 or 50 grand on her,

04:03:23.360 | and maybe another 30 or 40 in her bank account,

04:03:25.880 | and no other money.

04:03:27.140 | - Yeah.

04:03:30.400 | - Where's the other money?

04:03:32.200 | So, anyway.

04:03:33.720 | And, she was, by the way, she got caught.

04:03:35.200 | She was in communication with her family.

04:03:39.280 | So, she's talking to her mom.

04:03:40.760 | - That's when she got caught, ultimately.

04:03:42.000 | - And, her mother, through multiple conversations,

04:03:44.260 | one conversation being,

04:03:46.480 | "Mom, I'm doing fine.

04:03:48.020 | "I can't tell you where I am exactly,

04:03:50.260 | "but I'm in Houston, Texas.

04:03:51.660 | "I'm fine."

04:03:52.500 | Next one, six months later,

04:03:55.160 | I enrolled in beauty school.

04:03:56.800 | Houston, Texas beauty school.

04:03:58.520 | How many are there?

04:03:59.840 | And, her mom, bipolar.

04:04:02.180 | "I just wanna see my daughter."

04:04:04.320 | I'm gonna call the Secret Service.

04:04:06.320 | "I'm doing the right thing."

04:04:08.080 | And, honestly, she is doing the right thing.

04:04:09.760 | So--

04:04:11.320 | - So, you're getting more and more famous.

04:04:13.720 | - It's bad.

04:04:14.560 | - Nationally.

04:04:15.380 | - Right.

04:04:16.220 | So, I've got all these houses.

04:04:18.080 | - You're having a threesome with Amanda and Trina.

04:04:20.180 | - And, what ends up happening is,

04:04:24.280 | we end up going, and listen,

04:04:26.100 | Amanda and I, we've gone on,

04:04:27.720 | we've gone to Greece, Italy,

04:04:31.440 | Croatia, we're going on multiple just,

04:04:37.720 | multiple trips, and we've just gotten back

04:04:42.080 | from a 10-day cruise of the Greek Isles.

04:04:45.360 | And, there's, we get home,

04:04:51.360 | and Amanda goes online,

04:04:52.960 | and there's a blog about Dateline,

04:04:57.220 | about one of their new specials,

04:04:59.840 | called The Thief of Hearts.

04:05:02.000 | And, that's me.

04:05:03.160 | Apparently, I'm the thief of hearts.

04:05:05.480 | And, I'm apparently going around,

04:05:08.240 | and it's based on Rebecca's, Becky's story,

04:05:13.240 | that I'm wooing women to commit fraud,

04:05:16.420 | stealing all the money,

04:05:17.260 | and then leaving them to hold the bag.

04:05:19.020 | Well, they interviewed her.

04:05:22.420 | They're interviewing multiple people,

04:05:24.240 | multiple, in my case.

04:05:27.160 | They put together this,

04:05:28.120 | they're putting together an episode,

04:05:30.600 | gonna be released in a month or so.

04:05:33.240 | So, I'm terrified.

04:05:34.680 | I've, at this point, I've been on the run three years,

04:05:36.760 | and I'm like, there's lots of things

04:05:38.160 | I could care less about.

04:05:39.220 | Fortune, I don't know anybody that reads Fortune.

04:05:41.520 | Bloomberg, come on, I hang out with,

04:05:43.960 | I'm hanging out with contractors and laborers,

04:05:46.000 | and I'm not hanging out with these guys.

04:05:47.760 | So, local news, who cares?

04:05:52.360 | Even local news channels, I don't care.

04:05:56.120 | But, Dateline, there weren't 400 channels back then.

04:06:01.120 | So, Dateline comes out,

04:06:03.200 | even if you don't see it the first time,

04:06:04.700 | they're gonna rerun it in three months, or six months,

04:06:06.840 | or five years, 10 years from now,

04:06:08.300 | they might rerun it again.

04:06:09.860 | My face is gonna be on it.

04:06:11.200 | So, I could be perfectly fine five years from now,

04:06:13.360 | and one day, the barista that I go to every other day

04:06:17.680 | looks at Dateline and goes, oh my God,

04:06:20.200 | that's Mr. Johnson, or that's Mr. Thomas, or whatever.

04:06:24.080 | So, the point is, is that I was like, I gotta go.

04:06:26.460 | I can't stay here.

04:06:27.300 | I gotta get out of the country.

04:06:28.400 | So, I was gonna go to,

04:06:29.940 | well, we really started doing research,

04:06:32.820 | and Amanda ended up saying Australia.

04:06:36.280 | Australia, at the time, I don't know how it is now,

04:06:38.800 | but at the time, if you went to Australia

04:06:41.240 | with like $100,000, and a business plan,

04:06:46.240 | you could become a permanent resident alien.

04:06:50.160 | You can't vote, but you can buy property.

04:06:53.960 | You can open a business, but you can't get a job.

04:06:56.860 | And they didn't require fingerprints.

04:06:59.200 | So, there's no criminal background check.

04:07:03.100 | Now, if you wanted to be a citizen,

04:07:04.440 | you have to get an FBI criminal background check.

04:07:06.460 | Like, no, I'm good.

04:07:08.780 | So, I was like, wow, I can go there and start a business,

04:07:11.180 | and I'm gonna show up with a couple million.

04:07:14.020 | So, what we do is we start refinancing houses.

04:07:16.860 | We'll start pulling out money as quick as we can.

04:07:19.260 | I'm asking guys, laborers, guys that I work with,

04:07:23.360 | my general contractor, my real estate agent,

04:07:25.580 | hey man, can you cash this check for six grand?

04:07:28.100 | Nobody says no.

04:07:28.940 | Everybody, yeah, no problem, no problem.

04:07:30.680 | Few guys like, yeah, man, if you give me 10%,

04:07:32.800 | yeah, I'll give you 10%.

04:07:34.680 | So, that's happening.

04:07:36.360 | We're pulling out cash.

04:07:37.660 | One day, Amanda gives Trina a bunch of checks

04:07:47.340 | and asks her to cash 'em.

04:07:50.220 | That sparks a conversation that, like, what's happening.

04:07:55.680 | She confides in, by this point, by the way,

04:08:00.080 | Amanda knows who I am.

04:08:01.320 | So, by this point, she's actually came across the letter

04:08:05.320 | that I wrote to my parents when I left Tampa.

04:08:08.680 | So, she's figured out who I am.

04:08:10.360 | She tells Trina his name's Matt Cox.

04:08:14.560 | Date line's coming out.

04:08:15.800 | We're leaving, we gotta get a bunch of cash.

04:08:18.500 | And Trina goes, okay, I'll cash the checks.

04:08:21.480 | What she does instead is she calls the Secret Service.

04:08:24.520 | They watch my house for three days.

04:08:26.760 | I come home one day.

04:08:28.060 | They pull the cars up, and they arrest me.

04:08:33.240 | So, it's a little bit longer than that,

04:08:36.960 | but that's a short version of me getting arrested,

04:08:41.360 | and I've probably skipped over a whole bunch of--

04:08:43.040 | - It's so simple, because you've gotten away

04:08:44.720 | with much more complex situations.

04:08:47.140 | - It's women, man, it's women.

04:08:50.340 | Just joking.

04:08:52.160 | (laughs)

04:08:53.520 | - They also are the thing that make life worthwhile.

04:08:56.640 | - Listen, God bless Trina.

04:08:58.580 | She did the right thing.

04:09:00.340 | Honestly, based on--

04:09:01.180 | - There you go, back to the right thing.

04:09:02.720 | - But, I mean, based on what she saw,

04:09:04.760 | based on what the Secret Service told her,

04:09:07.780 | and the articles that she's reading, I'm a bad guy.

04:09:12.320 | I mean, I'm a bad guy in general, right?

04:09:14.000 | So, I don't deserve loyalty.

04:09:15.520 | I don't think so.

04:09:16.540 | I'm ripping people off, and she's thinking

04:09:19.560 | that her friend is in danger.

04:09:23.140 | You know, the FBI is saying I have a weapon.

04:09:25.660 | He's dangerous, he's got a weapon.

04:09:28.420 | We believe he's armed and dangerous.

04:09:30.340 | When I was in Florida, I had a concealed weapons permit,

04:09:33.340 | but I had gotten rid of both my guns

04:09:36.940 | when I was placed on probation.

04:09:38.020 | I've never had one since.

04:09:38.900 | I've never touched a gun since.

04:09:40.580 | But they used that to say, you know,

04:09:42.980 | they said, oh, he had a concealed weapons permit?

04:09:44.580 | Okay, well, then he's armed and dangerous.

04:09:46.300 | Like, there's these little things,

04:09:47.180 | and think, they're telling her, read this article.

04:09:49.220 | Look, he forces girls to fall in love with him,

04:09:51.340 | and that's what he's gonna do to your friend.

04:09:54.420 | So, she negotiated, also, I think she got 10,000.

04:09:57.180 | I think, which is embarrassing.

04:09:58.300 | I'm ashamed that she got $10,000.

04:10:01.060 | - And said everything.

04:10:03.500 | - Yeah, and told them this is where he is.

04:10:05.380 | His name is Joseph Carter.

04:10:07.020 | You know, this is where he is.

04:10:10.980 | They watch it, they grab me, they arrest me.

04:10:12.980 | They bring me downtown, you know.

04:10:16.220 | - What did you feel like when you got--

04:10:18.540 | - I didn't feel good, bro.

04:10:19.380 | It was bad, it was a bad day.

04:10:20.580 | It was a bad day.

04:10:21.420 | First of all, Casino Royale was coming out on Friday.

04:10:27.420 | It was the first Daniel Craig as James Bond.

04:10:33.300 | - Yeah.

04:10:34.300 | - And the whole week, I'd been telling Amanda,

04:10:37.460 | I'm gonna go see Casino Royale.

04:10:38.820 | She'd go, okay, well, on Saturday,

04:10:40.100 | we're gonna go to the festival.

04:10:41.060 | I'd go, that's fine, but on Friday, Casino,

04:10:44.100 | and she's like, right, Casino Royale.

04:10:45.460 | And then she's like, okay, by the way,

04:10:46.460 | on Thursday, I thought we could go to dinner.

04:10:48.020 | That's fine, but on Friday, Casino Royale.

04:10:51.420 | And when they put the handcuffs on,

04:10:52.700 | you know the first thing I thought of?

04:10:54.740 | I'm not gonna fucking sit to see Casino Royale.

04:10:56.580 | I'm not gonna get to see it.

04:10:58.100 | Not gonna see it.

04:10:58.940 | And I saw it about five, six years later

04:11:01.340 | on the institution's movie channel.

04:11:04.140 | You know, it was nice.

04:11:05.300 | It's not the same, but yeah, so they bring me to Nashville.

04:11:10.300 | Then they transport me to all over the place.

04:11:15.540 | I go on, you know, Conair.

04:11:18.100 | They fly me to Oklahoma.

04:11:19.780 | They fly me to Atlanta.

04:11:24.080 | Then I go to Atlanta.

04:11:26.020 | I'm placed in the U.S. Marshal's holdover.

04:11:28.680 | I get assigned an attorney.

04:11:30.820 | Go in front of the judge.

04:11:32.200 | Plead not guilty.

04:11:35.600 | Meet with my attorney.

04:11:37.620 | You always plead not guilty, you know?

04:11:39.000 | Whenever you face people and say,

04:11:39.840 | can you believe that he pled not guilty?

04:11:41.500 | That's the first thing.

04:11:42.980 | Nobody walks in and pleads guilty.

04:11:44.340 | You plead not guilty while you kind of

04:11:45.780 | figure out what you're gonna do.

04:11:46.980 | So I plead not guilty.

04:11:48.320 | There's no bond, obviously.

04:11:50.860 | I've got, they caught me.

04:11:51.920 | When they caught me, I had four or five passports.

04:11:54.900 | So that's no good.

04:11:57.320 | They charged me with bank fraud,

04:12:02.740 | conspiracy to commit bank fraud,

04:12:04.260 | wire fraud, mail fraud, passport fraud,

04:12:09.140 | conspiracy, or what was the other one?

04:12:12.580 | Aggravated identity theft, money laundering,

04:12:16.220 | use of a fraudulent passport.

04:12:18.300 | And there's like 30 counts of this,

04:12:23.180 | 20 counts of this, 20, but none of that matters.

04:12:25.540 | Like even if you just dropped all the counts

04:12:27.620 | to one count and stacked them,

04:12:28.920 | it's like 150 something years.

04:12:30.620 | Not that they're--

04:12:31.460 | - So everything, everything they put in.

04:12:32.660 | - And that's what they always say.

04:12:33.780 | You're looking at 150,000.

04:12:35.380 | And your lawyers, they're like,

04:12:36.520 | you're not looking at that.

04:12:37.360 | You're looking at 54 years.

04:12:39.160 | What, that's no better?

04:12:41.300 | That's no better?

04:12:42.780 | So yeah, so my lawyer comes in and sees me one day,

04:12:47.400 | you know, like our first meeting.

04:12:50.260 | And she says, you know, I'm Millie, Millie Dunn.

04:12:53.420 | And she says, listen, I've looked at everything.

04:12:58.700 | For first, they say, you're responsible for,

04:13:02.140 | it's like 25 or 30, 25 or $26 million in loss.

04:13:06.940 | And I'm like, that's, I've never, that's not true.

04:13:08.820 | That's not true.

04:13:10.220 | And I was like, you know, not even,

04:13:11.900 | I said, not even potential loss.

04:13:13.820 | There's just no way.

04:13:14.660 | I mean, there's no way.

04:13:15.500 | And then they come back, she comes back and she says,

04:13:17.680 | well, they're saying 19 million.

04:13:22.220 | Now, it's not possible.

04:13:23.860 | Tiny thing, I don't, I didn't, no.

04:13:26.300 | So when the FBI is saying like 40 million,

04:13:30.300 | they're saying 11.5 in Tampa,

04:13:33.160 | plus 40 million for the mortgage company.

04:13:35.460 | So it ends up being like, plus what I stole on the run,

04:13:39.180 | it ends up being like 55 million.

04:13:40.780 | But she gets them to drop like the 40.

04:13:42.900 | Like that's his brokers, that's this, that's that,

04:13:45.980 | drop it, and they're like, he's so done.

04:13:48.260 | It doesn't matter, they drop that.

04:13:49.260 | So it ends up, it ends up being like 15 million.

04:13:52.460 | And then it's down to, what does he owe?

04:13:54.420 | They said 9.5, and I got it down to like six million.

04:13:58.200 | So, you know, which, you know, I'm good for.

04:14:01.580 | So what ends up happening is they've charged me

04:14:06.020 | with all these things, and she's like, okay, you know,

04:14:11.020 | you're like, you can plead guilty,

04:14:16.020 | and you can go with the sentencing guidelines,

04:14:18.460 | which is gonna be like, she's like, I mean, it depends.

04:14:21.860 | She said it might be whatever, 54 years.

04:14:24.500 | She was, but if they run them, you know,

04:14:26.420 | concurrent or consecutive, depending on which one they do,

04:14:29.420 | she said most likely it ends up being like 30 years.

04:14:33.820 | You know, it's like, that's not good, that's not good.

04:14:37.980 | So we kind of go back and forth, back and forth,

04:14:39.940 | and figure out, try and figure out what I'm looking at.

04:14:42.700 | Now, as we go through the whole thing, we end up,

04:14:48.060 | she ends up with, she ends up saying, you know,

04:14:51.140 | she knocks off a bunch of stuff that they're saying I did.

04:14:55.780 | You know, enhancements.

04:14:58.460 | 'Cause you'll have a base level of, let's say, level eight.

04:15:02.620 | You know, that should be, that should be maybe a few years.

04:15:06.900 | But then they start adding on enhancements, you know.

04:15:09.540 | Did he, did what he do, was it sophisticated?

04:15:13.860 | Yes, okay, three levels for sophisticated means.

04:15:16.820 | Were there more than, how many victims?

04:15:18.580 | Were there more than 50 victims?

04:15:19.740 | Yes, okay, that's six more levels.

04:15:22.420 | Okay, did he change the jurisdiction to evade detection?

04:15:25.700 | Yes, that's four more levels.

04:15:27.140 | Okay, did he, they start adding, boom, boom,

04:15:29.420 | and when you start adding up all those levels,

04:15:32.720 | plus your criminal history,

04:15:34.040 | and I have a big criminal history

04:15:35.160 | because I was already on federal probation,

04:15:37.760 | and I committed a new crime on federal probation.

04:15:40.120 | So that was another enhancement.

04:15:42.440 | And this, you know, this case,

04:15:44.160 | so I'm in like a category, category two or three.

04:15:47.760 | So they come back and they're saying,

04:15:50.680 | I forget, it's like 20,

04:15:54.760 | well, they don't come back right away,

04:15:55.920 | but she ends up saying, you're probably looking at 14 years.

04:16:00.040 | Okay, that's reasonable, that's reasonable.

04:16:02.200 | And so she's saying, so we get the,

04:16:06.720 | when we get the PSI back,

04:16:08.360 | we eventually get what's called a percentage report.

04:16:10.680 | They're saying 26 years, but they really said 32 years.

04:16:14.540 | And I argued and we got it down to 26 years and four months.

04:16:19.760 | That's what it is, it's 316 months.

04:16:22.000 | That's how they do it in months.

04:16:23.600 | It doesn't sting that much, I guess, if you say months.

04:16:29.440 | - Yeah.

04:16:30.800 | - So she says to me, Millie sits down with me

04:16:33.280 | and she says, listen, you gotta cooperate.

04:16:38.280 | And I was like, okay.

04:16:39.880 | And she said, because you're guilty,

04:16:42.800 | you're extremely guilty.

04:16:44.400 | She's like, you can't go to trial.

04:16:46.960 | And she said, so you need to cooperate.

04:16:49.240 | I was like, well, what do I get if I cooperate?

04:16:50.600 | And she's, the way it works is you cooperate

04:16:52.800 | and you hope for the best.

04:16:56.760 | And I was like, are you serious?

04:16:58.080 | You tell them everything you know

04:16:59.440 | and you hope for the best.

04:17:01.040 | And she's like, what part of the problem is,

04:17:03.320 | she said, everybody in Tampa has cooperated.

04:17:06.160 | Rebecca has cooperated.

04:17:08.400 | Everyone across the board has cooperated.

04:17:10.160 | There's nobody that hasn't cooperated.

04:17:12.200 | - By the way, when you say cooperating,

04:17:13.680 | you mean they're an informant, they told.

04:17:15.840 | They said, AKA snitched.

04:17:17.440 | - Right, they came in, they sat down with their lawyer

04:17:19.800 | and they said, this is what he did.

04:17:21.200 | He did this, he did that.

04:17:22.360 | They showed him documents.

04:17:23.400 | Yes, yes, yes, that's my signature.

04:17:25.640 | I didn't know what that was.

04:17:27.800 | Everything was my fault.

04:17:28.920 | They didn't do anything.

04:17:29.760 | It was all me.

04:17:31.280 | So they've all cooperated and they haven't been charged.

04:17:34.080 | They've been indicted.

04:17:34.920 | They're all named as unnamed co-conspirators

04:17:37.160 | on my indictment.

04:17:38.440 | So I've got like 12 people.

04:17:40.120 | I mean, there's like probably 20 people that are involved,

04:17:41.640 | but there's like 12 of them that are,

04:17:43.680 | so I've got all these names, KB, DL, CY.

04:17:48.200 | It's like, I know who that is.

04:17:50.160 | Like, I know who DW, that's Dave Walker.

04:17:52.400 | I know who these people are.

04:17:54.640 | And so there's just a list of them.

04:17:55.680 | There's like 12 of them, you know, plus me.

04:17:57.840 | So, and some of them walked in and said, I'm guilty.

04:18:04.040 | I just want to be plead guilty.

04:18:06.080 | The girl, Allison, she walked in, said,

04:18:10.520 | I'm too, I'm tired of waiting for you to come get me.

04:18:15.520 | Walked in with her lawyer and said,

04:18:16.700 | I just want to plead guilty.

04:18:18.600 | And they sentenced her and she went to jail.

04:18:21.120 | She got like 36 months or 30 months.

04:18:24.780 | She called the prison that she went to,

04:18:29.780 | the low security, it was a female prison at the time,

04:18:34.380 | female camp, called the camp and asked her

04:18:36.940 | if she could come by for a tour before she went.

04:18:40.020 | And they went, excuse me?

04:18:42.540 | She said, well, I'm going to be there for about two years.

04:18:45.660 | So I'd like to come in.

04:18:46.500 | Is there like a tour I can take?

04:18:47.860 | 'Cause I'd like to know where I'm going

04:18:49.300 | and what it's going to be like, how I should prepare.

04:18:51.860 | And they just started laughing.

04:18:53.100 | They said, there's no tour, sweetie.

04:18:54.620 | We'll give you the tour when you get here.

04:18:56.500 | (laughing)

04:18:58.540 | You gotta love that.

04:18:59.820 | - Yeah, I mean.

04:19:00.900 | - I thought I was, I didn't think,

04:19:02.200 | I thought I wasn't prepared.

04:19:04.080 | - I mean, there's no tour.

04:19:06.700 | - So Becky, Becky got 70 months,

04:19:10.940 | but when I got caught and when I was sentenced,

04:19:12.940 | they reduced it to like 30 or no, 40 to 40 months.

04:19:16.060 | They reduced--

04:19:16.900 | - Because she "cooperated" that term.

04:19:20.180 | - Right.

04:19:22.100 | - Is that how you say snitch?

04:19:23.140 | - Well, there must be, I mean,

04:19:25.900 | snitch is too harsh of a word, but yeah, the ratted.

04:19:29.500 | I mean, you're saying, I don't know.

04:19:32.300 | - We can get there.

04:19:33.140 | We'll get there.

04:19:33.960 | - All right, all right.

04:19:36.060 | So where did the sentencing end up?

04:19:39.900 | - So I should say first, on the cooperation subject,

04:19:44.900 | my lawyer wanted me to cooperate.

04:19:49.700 | And by this point, I realized like,

04:19:51.700 | you don't have a choice, you know?

04:19:53.420 | No, that's not true.

04:19:55.120 | I could have been a gangster.

04:19:57.220 | - Yeah.

04:19:58.660 | What does it mean to be a gangster in this case?

04:20:00.220 | - Like a standup guy.

04:20:02.660 | I could have said, I'll just take it.

04:20:05.180 | Give me 54 years, go fuck yourself.

04:20:07.880 | I'm not gonna snitch on nobody.

04:20:09.580 | And I know you look at me and you think, tough guy.

04:20:12.980 | I'm not a tough guy at all.

04:20:15.980 | I'm not doing 50 some odd years.

04:20:19.260 | Like I'm not doing it.

04:20:20.740 | I don't wanna do 30 years.

04:20:22.080 | I was hoping for, I knew it wasn't possible,

04:20:26.780 | but I would have satisfied for another slap on the hand

04:20:29.640 | like I got the first time.

04:20:31.500 | I really thought I deserved.

04:20:33.080 | Honestly, when my lawyer asked me,

04:20:35.100 | what do you really think you deserve?

04:20:35.940 | And I thought, I deserve 10 years.

04:20:38.300 | I deserve 10 years.

04:20:39.500 | But, so she said, look, they wanna talk to you.

04:20:43.700 | So the FBI, well, first the Secret Service flies in.

04:20:49.900 | They come in and they interview me.

04:20:54.340 | - Who's more terrifying, FBI, Secret Service?

04:20:57.900 | - The Secret Service was so overwhelmingly professional.

04:21:02.320 | The FBI, and really only,

04:21:07.080 | one of the FBI agents that interviewed me,

04:21:10.740 | I don't know how he's an agent.

04:21:12.900 | I don't know.

04:21:13.740 | He was just ineffective, incompetent.

04:21:15.780 | - Oh, so it's a competence issue.

04:21:17.700 | - The other one was Candace.

04:21:20.420 | - Oh, you met her eventually.

04:21:21.380 | - Of course I did, of course.

04:21:23.500 | She's 5'11", wearing three-inch heels.

04:21:28.260 | She's a giant, in impeccable shape, attractive,

04:21:32.940 | one of the angriest human beings I've ever met.

04:21:36.460 | And every FBI agent that I've met since then

04:21:39.360 | that knows her and I mention, they all say,

04:21:42.580 | what did you think of her?

04:21:44.180 | And I'm like, what, why?

04:21:45.860 | And I was like, kind of aggressively, yeah, yeah.

04:21:48.900 | She's a bulldog.

04:21:49.740 | She's, I mean, all of them are like, yeah, yeah.

04:21:51.460 | She's something else.

04:21:53.120 | - Secret Service is a little bit more professional.

04:21:56.700 | - Very personal, very, it's their job.

04:21:58.340 | It's like, hey, this is just my job.

04:21:59.860 | They're polite, professional, that's it.

04:22:02.700 | So it's just, this is just, this is my nine to five.

04:22:05.300 | So, but they come and they fly in

04:22:09.260 | and they meet with me for three, four days.

04:22:14.980 | One of the funny things is that when I first sat down

04:22:19.240 | with them, one guy's name was Dan,

04:22:23.580 | like Brozenskowski or something.

04:22:26.340 | So he sits down and he says, look, before we get started,

04:22:29.820 | we need to talk about something.

04:22:31.380 | And I said, what?

04:22:32.220 | He said, we know you've hidden money.

04:22:33.940 | And I was like, what?

04:22:36.780 | And he goes, we know you've got money hidden.

04:22:39.780 | I said, I don't have any money hidden.

04:22:41.140 | What are you talking about?

04:22:41.980 | And my lawyer's like, do we need to talk?

04:22:42.860 | I'm like, no, no, no, no, I don't have nothing.

04:22:44.020 | I gave you everything, all the accounts, you got everything.

04:22:47.580 | And he's like, you're looking at an obstruction charge

04:22:51.300 | at this point.

04:22:52.140 | I was like, I don't have anything.

04:22:54.060 | And he says, we know you have money.

04:22:56.440 | We know you have money in different IDs,

04:22:58.740 | different identities, names.

04:22:59.860 | And I go, what are you talking about?

04:23:01.260 | And he pulls out a bank statement

04:23:04.140 | and he slaps it on the counter and he goes,

04:23:06.580 | you've got money in Southern Exchange Bank.

04:23:11.020 | You've got $190,000 in Southern Exchange Bank.

04:23:14.140 | And I look at it and I went,

04:23:15.980 | it was in the name Walter Holcomb.

04:23:20.220 | And I went, did you call the bank?

04:23:23.740 | He says, yeah, we called the bank.

04:23:25.660 | I went, okay.

04:23:27.860 | Did anybody call you back?

04:23:29.420 | And they go, he said, no, we've left several messages.

04:23:31.940 | I said, did you go to the bank website?

04:23:33.900 | He goes, yeah, I went to the website.

04:23:34.860 | I said, what'd you think?

04:23:36.540 | And he went, what do you mean, it was the bank website?

04:23:39.060 | I said, yeah, but it was professional, right?

04:23:40.780 | It was like a professional website.

04:23:42.100 | And he goes, it's a bank website.

04:23:44.220 | And I go, yeah, but it was well done.

04:23:46.540 | And he goes, oh God.

04:23:49.900 | And I go, yeah, convincing.

04:23:51.980 | And I went, I go, it's all an illusion.

04:23:54.620 | And I said, the bank doesn't exist.

04:23:56.180 | It's a fake bank.

04:23:57.020 | I made the bank.

04:23:58.500 | Made it when I was in, not even in Tampa.

04:24:00.740 | I think I'd gotten to Nashville when I made it.

04:24:04.060 | And I was like, yeah, it's an illusion.

04:24:05.300 | The bank statements,

04:24:06.220 | he's like, they're color bank statements.

04:24:07.660 | I'm like, yeah, well, no shit.

04:24:09.380 | So, there's no, I said, a matter of fact,

04:24:11.660 | I said, who did you leave a,

04:24:13.020 | I haven't paid for the service in months.

04:24:17.220 | And he turned around and he called it

04:24:18.900 | and it went, it was disconnected.

04:24:22.460 | And I was like, how do you not know that's a bank?

04:24:24.500 | Well, it turns out there was a Sunderland Exchange Bank

04:24:27.860 | and I'd used their bank routing number.

04:24:30.540 | And so, I mean, I always thought that was funny

04:24:33.180 | that they, it's like, well, I remember,

04:24:35.060 | really for a split second there,

04:24:36.140 | I was kind of like really embarrassed that they caught me.

04:24:38.100 | I was like, I can't believe this.

04:24:40.060 | You're the Secret Service.

04:24:41.700 | Anyway, I talked to them.

04:24:43.180 | I, you know, there's really,

04:24:45.420 | as far as the Secret Service is concerned,

04:24:46.820 | there's just not much I can tell them.

04:24:48.700 | There's just, you know, like, it was me.

04:24:52.540 | Becky's already told them everything.

04:24:54.500 | Amanda's already told them everything.

04:24:56.780 | It's not hard to track.

04:24:57.940 | And when they raided my house, they've got boxes and boxes.

04:25:01.940 | So, it's laid out.

04:25:03.340 | We still, it took forever.

04:25:04.580 | Like, I still went through everything.

04:25:06.300 | I explained how I got the driver's licenses,

04:25:08.460 | how I made the bank statements,

04:25:12.180 | how I made the birth certificates,

04:25:13.500 | how I, the whole social engineering

04:25:16.180 | of figuring out how to, what these little loopholes are.

04:25:19.620 | It's like seven days total with these guys.

04:25:22.540 | So-- - You mean like questions?

04:25:24.460 | - Yeah, it was like they questioned me for all day

04:25:26.980 | and then they take me back to the Marshall's holdover

04:25:29.740 | and then the next morning I wake up

04:25:31.420 | and they chain me up again and bring me back.

04:25:33.300 | - What's that like?

04:25:34.140 | What's that process of questioning like?

04:25:36.260 | Are they, I mean, you're somebody

04:25:38.540 | who is exceptionally good at conversation.

04:25:41.640 | Charismatic, it was part of the games you played.

04:25:47.180 | Are they good at conversation?

04:25:49.000 | - I mean, they're, you know,

04:25:51.720 | the problem is they're not there to shoot the shit.

04:25:55.340 | You see what I'm saying?

04:25:56.180 | Like, they have an agenda.

04:25:57.820 | - But they have to use their words

04:25:59.620 | to get information out of you.

04:26:01.460 | Aren't they trying to manipulate you?

04:26:03.060 | - I'm not, I'm not holding anything back.

04:26:05.020 | - Okay.

04:26:06.580 | - I'm not, it's not like I'm sparing Jim.

04:26:09.580 | You know, trust me, Jim's gotta go.

04:26:11.860 | I mean, you're looking at, you're at 20 some odd years

04:26:14.860 | but Jim can do five, Bill can do some, Tom can do six.

04:26:19.300 | I don't even like, I don't even like Jerry.

04:26:22.020 | Jerry can do 20, you know, so I'm ready.

04:26:25.820 | I'm ready to cut everybody's throat.

04:26:27.180 | - But you're not guaranteed that you're not,

04:26:29.220 | you're getting anything for that.

04:26:30.780 | - Right.

04:26:32.020 | In all my time, I've seen one, one time

04:26:34.980 | where an inmate got a guarantee

04:26:37.060 | to have his sentence reduced.

04:26:39.340 | And it was signed by the head of the FBI.

04:26:42.020 | It was Robert Mueller, gave it to him

04:26:43.660 | to have a conversation with him.

04:26:45.620 | That's the only time I've ever seen that document.

04:26:48.420 | - Okay, so a lot of days

04:26:50.660 | with both the Secret Service and the FBI.

04:26:52.540 | - So FBI was, Candace was irritated, didn't like me.

04:26:56.420 | And I remember when I, she, I took the cuffs off.

04:26:59.260 | I was like rubbing my wrist.

04:27:00.300 | She goes, "Your wrist hurt?"

04:27:01.140 | And I go, "Yeah."

04:27:02.420 | And she goes, "Get used to it."

04:27:03.980 | I mean, she was just an asshole, just all around.

04:27:06.820 | Not that she didn't have a right to be,

04:27:07.900 | but everybody else was professional, you know?

04:27:10.620 | So. (laughs)

04:27:13.340 | - Oh, Candace.

04:27:14.180 | - So we, you know, we talked for three or four days

04:27:18.780 | with the FBI and, you know, they asked a ton of questions.

04:27:23.300 | They brought a ton of, they brought documents, you know?

04:27:26.100 | So it's like, "Hey, who signed this?"

04:27:27.380 | You know, it's like, "Oh, that's not my signature.

04:27:29.220 | "That's so-and-so's signature."

04:27:30.260 | Or, "I signed that, I signed that, I signed that.

04:27:32.820 | "That's so-and-so.

04:27:33.660 | "Where'd this check go?

04:27:34.500 | "Who is this?

04:27:35.320 | "Oh, that's so-and-so."

04:27:36.160 | You know, you're looking over everything.

04:27:38.140 | One of the things they wanted to know about was,

04:27:40.260 | which I never talked about 'cause it seems so minor,

04:27:44.380 | is I bribed a politician.

04:27:46.020 | I got him elected because we got him elected

04:27:48.860 | to the city council so he could vote to get the lots.

04:27:53.860 | We bought like 100 vacant lots in Ybor City.

04:27:58.100 | And I wanted 'em all, they were all single family.

04:27:59.780 | We wanted them zoned multifamily.

04:28:02.000 | And so we bribed him and got him elected.

04:28:05.140 | - That doesn't seem minor.

04:28:06.980 | - It's not as sexy as the rest of the stuff.

04:28:09.100 | - That's pretty, I mean--

04:28:10.860 | - So that's a whole 'nother thing.

04:28:12.900 | Like, I mean, you know.

04:28:14.380 | So what happened is when they got all of the bank accounts,

04:28:19.380 | they see all these checks going to Kevin White.

04:28:23.100 | And so they're like, "Why did James Redd

04:28:25.940 | "donate $500 to Kevin White?

04:28:28.220 | "Why did Brandon Green donate?

04:28:29.860 | "Why did Alan Duncan donate?

04:28:31.340 | "Why did," and so I had explained to him,

04:28:33.380 | "Oh yeah, well, we wanted him to be city councilman

04:28:35.900 | "so we paid, gave him a bunch of money

04:28:38.320 | "so he could run the ads, so he could get elected,

04:28:40.060 | "so he could then get all of our stuff."

04:28:41.860 | But because he never did, I took off on the run

04:28:45.340 | before he was able to do that.

04:28:46.900 | And then he ended up getting, not long,

04:28:51.740 | too, too long after that, he ended up,

04:28:53.620 | about five, six years later, he ended up getting

04:28:56.540 | indicted for bribery, but not mine,

04:28:59.380 | on somebody else's case.

04:29:00.820 | - Can I take a small tangent here

04:29:02.260 | and ask how many politicians do you think

04:29:04.500 | commit crimes are a little bit or a lot criminals?

04:29:08.620 | - I mean, I think there's some ways that are,

04:29:12.260 | they're seemingly legal.

04:29:15.660 | - The aforementioned gray area.

04:29:17.540 | - Well, that's not gray.

04:29:18.660 | Like, this guy was, at one point,

04:29:22.260 | I couldn't find anybody to write $500 checks anymore,

04:29:25.300 | so I just gave him cash.

04:29:26.500 | Like, I'm just handing him seven, $8,000, $10,000 in cash.

04:29:30.700 | So, but I think most of them have legal ways

04:29:35.700 | to make ungodly amounts of money for influence.

04:29:41.660 | But is it legal?

04:29:44.820 | No, it's their politicians, they've made it

04:29:46.260 | so that it's not illegal.

04:29:48.300 | If you really sat down and explained it to someone,

04:29:53.740 | the average person would say, "That's not right.

04:29:56.460 | "Oh, no, no, that's legal."

04:29:58.100 | - So, okay, so at the end of these few days,

04:30:01.040 | what was the sentencing like?

04:30:05.140 | - Yeah, I end up, I go to sentencing.

04:30:08.060 | I get my PSI back, and it's 32 years to life.

04:30:12.660 | And so, we argue about it with the prosecutor

04:30:17.660 | just before sentencing, and they get it down

04:30:21.740 | to 26 years, four months.

04:30:24.300 | And then Millie says, "Listen, don't worry,"

04:30:30.660 | 'cause I'm trying to backpedal at this point.

04:30:32.260 | I'm like, I might as well go to trial.

04:30:34.300 | If I lost at trial, I couldn't get more than 30.

04:30:36.940 | That you can't, well, more than 32 years,

04:30:39.580 | 'cause you can't get life.

04:30:40.640 | 32 was the max, it's just a mistake.

04:30:42.420 | He said 32 years to life, you can't get life.

04:30:44.160 | So, it was like, the most I can get is 32 years.

04:30:46.100 | So, I was like, I'll go to trial.

04:30:47.060 | Might as well go to trial and see if I can get them

04:30:49.460 | to reduce some of these enhancements.

04:30:51.400 | She insists that she can get the enhancements knocked out.

04:30:55.060 | And if you read, they actually read the enhancements.

04:30:57.520 | Some of the enhancements, they didn't apply to me.

04:31:00.020 | So, she goes, and I believed her,

04:31:04.060 | and I think she made a valid argument.

04:31:06.460 | We go to sentencing, my mom's there, she's crying.

04:31:09.780 | My dad's there, he's looking at me like he's disgusted.

04:31:13.660 | And crowd, there's a whole bunch of reporters,

04:31:17.980 | like the whole place is packed.

04:31:20.620 | And I plead guilty.

04:31:22.120 | Millie gets up, my lawyer gets up,

04:31:23.960 | and she argues these enhancements.

04:31:26.680 | And every single time, the judge is like,

04:31:29.000 | I disagree, overruled.

04:31:33.640 | And it's like, boom, five more years.

04:31:36.140 | Bam, six more years, bam.

04:31:40.240 | 'Cause if she had won the enhancements she argued,

04:31:42.320 | I would've got 14 years.

04:31:43.620 | Now, keep in mind too, prior to this,

04:31:48.280 | a month or two prior to this,

04:31:50.320 | the US attorney had called Millie and said,

04:31:55.200 | look, Dateline, Dateline had already come out, by the way.

04:31:58.400 | Remember, I was worried about Dateline coming out.

04:31:59.760 | Well, it had come out.

04:32:01.560 | But they wanted to do a follow-up,

04:32:03.840 | because it came out a month or two after I got arrested.

04:32:07.440 | And they were saying, hey, we wanna recut it

04:32:08.960 | with interviews with him.

04:32:10.760 | Well, Gayle McKenzie, that's the US attorney,

04:32:14.600 | she wants me to do that.

04:32:15.840 | And she says, I'll consider that substantial assistance.

04:32:20.220 | Now, when you cooperate with the government,

04:32:23.260 | they consider it substantial assistance,

04:32:25.560 | that's what they call it.

04:32:26.800 | So I cooperate with you, it's substantial assistance.

04:32:29.120 | She says, if he's interviewed by Dateline,

04:32:31.840 | we'll consider it substantial assistance.

04:32:34.920 | And Millie says, you have to do it.

04:32:36.920 | - By the way, what's the idea behind that,

04:32:38.320 | that you serve as a warning for others

04:32:41.320 | or something like that?

04:32:42.160 | - Yeah, exactly, it's a, you become a cautionary tale,

04:32:45.840 | like, don't let this happen to you.

04:32:47.640 | So I go, and I'm interviewed by Dateline.

04:32:50.800 | Keith Morris, or whatever his name is, that guy.

04:32:55.320 | Mr. Coxworth, that guy.

04:32:57.660 | So he comes, and he interviews me.

04:33:01.680 | Becky's interviewed, I'm interviewed, Amanda's interviewed,

04:33:05.080 | Allison is interviewed, everybody,

04:33:08.520 | the Secret Service agent, I think, is interviewed,

04:33:10.920 | everybody, prosecutor's interviewed.

04:33:15.240 | It's funny, at the time, I was, when I watched it,

04:33:18.600 | I was like, that's not true, that's not true,

04:33:21.600 | and that, and it honestly was like 99% true.

04:33:25.360 | It's, like, looking back on it, you know,

04:33:28.280 | I'm like, you know, like, my Audi TT wasn't blue,

04:33:32.480 | it was silver, you know, it's just stupid.

04:33:35.980 | But anyway, so I'm interviewed by them,

04:33:38.000 | and they recut it and they air the video.

04:33:40.440 | So you said this was substantial assistance.

04:33:44.280 | And then the other thing is, I was interviewed

04:33:45.720 | by the FBI and the Secret Service.

04:33:47.800 | Now, my lawyer calls the prosecutor

04:33:52.120 | the night before sentencing, and says,

04:33:54.080 | "Look, he was interviewed by Dateline,

04:33:56.400 | "and he was interviewed by the Secret Service and the FBI.

04:33:59.860 | "And if you do that, you said you'd reduce his sentence.

04:34:04.540 | "You'd consider it substantial assistance,

04:34:06.220 | "and you would reduce his sentence.

04:34:07.940 | "What are you going to ask for his sentence

04:34:11.200 | "to be tomorrow at sentencing?"

04:34:13.240 | And she said, "We did consider it substantial assistance,

04:34:17.140 | "and it's just not enough."

04:34:18.680 | What do you mean?

04:34:20.400 | Nobody was arrested.

04:34:22.000 | Yes, but what about Dateline?

04:34:23.860 | Millie, I don't know what to tell you,

04:34:26.640 | it just wasn't enough.

04:34:27.820 | - We considered it?

04:34:29.320 | - We considered it.

04:34:30.440 | We will consider it, and they did consider it.

04:34:33.180 | So-- - Oh, man.

04:34:34.560 | - Yeah, that's like, you have to really, you know,

04:34:37.720 | the meaning of words is so important.

04:34:40.040 | - I'm gonna use that at some point.

04:34:41.680 | I'll consider it. - I will consider it.

04:34:42.520 | I'll consider it.

04:34:43.340 | I considered it.

04:34:44.680 | - It's not.

04:34:46.220 | So-- - And still feel the same.

04:34:48.800 | - So she calls me, "I'm crushed."

04:34:50.960 | And she's like, "But look, you know,

04:34:52.100 | "they're still investigating.

04:34:53.120 | "They're gonna make these arrests."

04:34:54.560 | And so when you get a sentence reduction at sentencing,

04:34:57.580 | it's called a 5K1.

04:34:59.060 | When you get a sentence reduction after sentencing,

04:35:03.480 | it's called a Rule 35.

04:35:05.800 | So she said, "We'll file a Rule 35

04:35:07.340 | "as soon as the arrests are made."

04:35:09.160 | Okay.

04:35:10.120 | So I go to sentencing, and Millie says,

04:35:12.060 | "You're gonna get 14 years.

04:35:12.920 | "I'm gonna argue these enhancements."

04:35:14.480 | She argues the enhancements.

04:35:16.560 | She loses the enhancements.

04:35:18.620 | Not that she's not an amazing attorney.

04:35:20.080 | She's an amazing attorney.

04:35:21.840 | The judge wanted to hammer me.

04:35:24.280 | He hammered me.

04:35:25.240 | You know, Millie was a great attorney.

04:35:28.420 | She was always polite to me.

04:35:30.160 | And by the way, to this day,

04:35:31.360 | we'll answer my phone call.

04:35:32.520 | Most public defenders, you call them now,

04:35:35.700 | you call them after your sentence,

04:35:37.120 | they don't answer your call.

04:35:39.840 | Great person.

04:35:40.800 | - Thank you, Millie.

04:35:42.540 | - I didn't give her anything to work with.

04:35:45.400 | You know, it's like, I'm overwhelmingly guilty.

04:35:47.800 | It's like, there's no defense.

04:35:50.160 | So I end up getting sentenced 26 years.

04:35:53.680 | That's a lot of years.

04:35:56.880 | I would like to tell you that when they gave me the time,

04:36:01.880 | you know, that I was stoic, and I stood there,

04:36:04.960 | and I took it in.

04:36:07.840 | You know, but the truth is, I cried like a baby,

04:36:09.940 | like a small child.

04:36:11.040 | Like, you've never seen anyone cry like this in your life.

04:36:15.240 | I was just, how did I get 26?

04:36:19.760 | What did I do to get 26 years?

04:36:21.600 | Like, murderers, rapists.

04:36:24.000 | I've met guys that kidnapped guys that got 15.

04:36:27.620 | - 26.

04:36:31.360 | - So yeah, I--

04:36:33.520 | - Were you scared?

04:36:35.860 | - I mean, you know, does the Pope wear a funny hat?

04:36:38.540 | Like, of course I was scared, I was terrified.

04:36:41.040 | I mean, you know, but I kept telling myself,

04:36:44.100 | ah, they're gonna reduce the sentence,

04:36:45.780 | they'll reduce it, they'll reduce it, they'll reduce it.

04:36:47.540 | Like, okay, okay, okay, it's gonna be okay,

04:36:49.460 | it's gonna be okay.

04:36:50.420 | You know, but it wasn't okay.

04:36:52.660 | I got moved to Coleman, the Coleman Complex

04:36:57.660 | in Coleman, Florida, the Federal Correctional

04:37:02.100 | Coleman Complex in Coleman, Florida,

04:37:04.580 | which is the largest complex in the nation,

04:37:07.420 | federal complex in the nation.

04:37:08.900 | At that time, there was a camp, which was a female camp.

04:37:13.900 | There was a low-security prison for men,

04:37:19.460 | a medium-security prison, and two penitentiaries.

04:37:22.280 | And so I get moved to the medium.

04:37:26.460 | Now, I'm moved to the medium not because,

04:37:28.260 | like, that's where, like, real criminals go, right?

04:37:30.180 | Like, I'm a soft white boy.

04:37:33.580 | Like, I'm no danger to anybody.

04:37:34.900 | Like, I hurt someone's feelings once.

04:37:37.140 | But other than that, I'm not gonna be a problem.

04:37:40.980 | But if you have more than 20 years to serve,

04:37:45.440 | you have to go to a medium.

04:37:46.940 | So even though my security level said

04:37:48.700 | this guy should be in a camp, I had 20 years.

04:37:53.560 | So if you have, you can't go to a camp

04:37:55.460 | till you have less than 10.

04:37:57.020 | So as soon as I am given 26 years,

04:38:00.420 | they knock off three, but you still have three years

04:38:02.460 | to get below 20, so they go to the medium.

04:38:04.100 | So I go to the medium, and there are guys getting stabbed.

04:38:06.780 | The very first day, people are being stabbed.

04:38:08.940 | I get locked into, go to my cell, meet my cellie.

04:38:13.140 | They scream lockdown.

04:38:15.060 | Somebody got stabbed in the rec yard.

04:38:17.260 | I remember I asked my cellie,

04:38:18.580 | which I met 20 minutes earlier, I was like,

04:38:20.620 | what's, you know, he's like,

04:38:21.460 | "Hey, we gotta get in the cell."

04:38:22.580 | I was like, "What's going on?"

04:38:23.580 | He goes, "Somebody got stabbed in the yard."

04:38:24.780 | I go, "Somebody just got killed?"

04:38:26.540 | And he goes, "Nah, they just stabbed him up a little bit."

04:38:29.060 | And I thought, you're in a place

04:38:31.860 | where they stabbed him up a little bit.

04:38:33.820 | Like, you're not prepared for this, bro.

04:38:35.900 | You gotta get out of here.

04:38:37.820 | So anyway, I go to the medium, I'm there.

04:38:40.420 | - Like, what was the first day and night?

04:38:42.180 | - When I remember, I already had been locked up

04:38:44.180 | in the county, and they're county jails,

04:38:46.300 | where they call them US, they're US Marshal,

04:38:48.460 | they're holdovers, but they're really county jails.

04:38:51.020 | They just keep you with the federal guys.

04:38:54.940 | So I'm not mixed in with hobos and people like that.

04:38:58.100 | Like, I'm mixed in with the federal people.

04:39:00.100 | - So it already felt like a prison?

04:39:02.900 | - Yeah, I mean, it's a prison.

04:39:04.460 | I mean, it's jail, but it's a prison,

04:39:07.740 | and unless you've been locked up,

04:39:09.100 | you don't really know the difference.

04:39:10.060 | So it's a jail.

04:39:11.860 | Jails suck, jails are much worse.

04:39:13.340 | The whole time I was locked up in the jails,

04:39:15.680 | waiting to be sentenced, guys were like,

04:39:17.100 | "I just wanna get sentenced and go to prison, bro."

04:39:19.420 | And I was like, "Why does everybody keep saying that?"

04:39:22.420 | Like, prison's worse than this, bro.

04:39:24.300 | Like, I saw Shawshank, like, it's horrible.

04:39:26.820 | And they're like, "Bro, prison, listen, prison,

04:39:29.900 | I can walk the rec yard, I could go to the movie room,

04:39:33.020 | watch movies, listen, within, right after count,"

04:39:36.980 | for this four o'clock count, they count everybody at four.

04:39:39.720 | So they are like, "Right after count,

04:39:42.020 | I'm gonna go to commissary,

04:39:43.060 | somebody's gonna buy me an ice cream.

04:39:44.540 | I'm gonna be eating an ice cream,

04:39:45.820 | walking on the rec yard the first day."

04:39:49.140 | Like, and I'm, you know, it's been months and months

04:39:51.380 | and months that I've been locked up in this county jail,

04:39:53.580 | and I'm thinking, "I wanna go to prison.

04:39:54.860 | Like, that sounds nice, I'd like an ice cream."

04:39:57.340 | - Yeah, but there was a stabbing on the first day.

04:40:00.000 | - Yeah, well, everybody kept telling me

04:40:01.740 | I was gonna go to a camp.

04:40:02.940 | You're gonna go to a camp, you're gonna go to a low.

04:40:05.020 | - I see.

04:40:05.860 | - You know, and honestly, I was, very quickly,

04:40:07.860 | I was walking on the rec yard.

04:40:09.500 | I was, you know, so I was at the medium, I got there.

04:40:14.160 | You know, it's a real prison with the doors, bam,

04:40:19.680 | and you can open the little tray thing

04:40:21.420 | and feed you out of the tray,

04:40:22.500 | and there's a stainless steel toilet and sink,

04:40:25.240 | and, you know, they have that in the county, too.

04:40:26.860 | But, you know, it's exactly

04:40:29.100 | what you think of prison as being.

04:40:30.980 | - But it feels like a fundamentally different experience

04:40:33.740 | when it's 26 years, and the door locks, and--

04:40:36.740 | - Yeah, so, yeah, I have a cellie,

04:40:39.400 | and, but I'm also, they sent me to a prison

04:40:43.820 | where guys have, tons of guys have 30, 40, 50 years,

04:40:47.300 | you know, life sentences.

04:40:48.420 | There's gangsters there, there's murderers,

04:40:52.620 | there's serial killers, there's, you know, really bad guys.

04:40:56.900 | There's, you know, there's guys that are, you know,

04:41:01.820 | trying to take advantage of guys, right?

04:41:06.500 | - Yeah, sexually? - Yeah.

04:41:07.860 | But by the time I got there, I'd heard all the, you know,

04:41:13.140 | how you can get yourself in trouble.

04:41:15.220 | You know, how you can, like,

04:41:16.120 | don't go in somebody else's cell.

04:41:17.940 | You don't know the guy, you're not 100% sure,

04:41:20.760 | do not go in his cell.

04:41:22.020 | Don't even go near his cell.

04:41:23.740 | Don't go into places where people can close a door

04:41:26.700 | behind you, or they can trap you in an area.

04:41:29.060 | Don't, you know, there's all these things

04:41:30.820 | that I've been told not to do.

04:41:33.980 | - Again, for sexual reasons.

04:41:35.380 | - Right, because I'm a small guy in prison, you know?

04:41:40.380 | - Tracked away, dude.

04:41:43.380 | - Yeah, it's a problem, it's a problem.

04:41:45.340 | This, it's bad, it's all bad.

04:41:49.660 | - Well, it's good in the outside world,

04:41:51.780 | but bad in prison.

04:41:53.340 | - You know, yeah, my fear was there,

04:41:55.220 | make me shave my head to make sure

04:41:56.740 | that the mop wig fits correctly.

04:42:00.020 | But there's certain things that,

04:42:01.100 | I always hate to say this,

04:42:01.940 | but I mean, this is the simplest way to say it,

04:42:04.220 | is that if you get stabbed in prison, you had it coming.

04:42:08.460 | You did something.

04:42:10.860 | Like, they're not running around just stabbing people.

04:42:12.580 | You did something.

04:42:13.580 | You, and the things that get you hurt

04:42:16.080 | is you argue over the TV, what channel you wanna watch.

04:42:20.660 | You got 50, 80 guys watching one TV.

04:42:24.300 | Don't argue about it.

04:42:25.140 | Like, it's not worth it.

04:42:26.520 | Borrowing things and not returning them, that's a problem.

04:42:31.860 | Running up debts, that's a big problem.

04:42:34.500 | You know, gambling, gossiping.

04:42:37.940 | You know, those are the problem.

04:42:38.940 | Those things get you hurt.

04:42:40.360 | Not being polite, be respectful.

04:42:42.020 | I'm super respectful.

04:42:43.900 | So, I was respectful very quickly when I got to Coleman.

04:42:50.260 | There are continuing education courses.

04:42:52.340 | One of the courses is residential real estate.

04:42:55.940 | The guy that was running the residential real estate

04:42:59.620 | didn't wanna do it anymore because he was doing legal work

04:43:02.940 | and it just was taking too much time.

04:43:04.840 | So, he came to me and said, "Listen, you just got here.

04:43:07.300 | "You got a real estate background like nobody else does.

04:43:09.580 | "Can you take over this class?"

04:43:10.660 | And I was like, "Um, sure."

04:43:12.020 | So, I looked at his curriculum.

04:43:13.180 | I kinda rewrote it a little bit.

04:43:14.820 | And I started teaching the residential real estate class.

04:43:16.660 | And at one point, I was teaching two classes,

04:43:18.740 | like a semester or a quarter.

04:43:20.800 | And these guys loved it.

04:43:23.500 | Like, they all think they're gonna get out and flip houses.

04:43:26.240 | So, I started, you know, from the fundamentals.

04:43:28.180 | I talk about credit, how to borrow, how hard money lenders,

04:43:31.460 | different types of bar, like everything.

04:43:33.660 | And, you know, guys are walking.

04:43:35.220 | It's the first time in my life, this was funny.

04:43:37.580 | Not that I think I was really ever in a position

04:43:39.340 | for this to happen.

04:43:40.180 | This was really odd, though.

04:43:41.700 | Probably the second or third class, when guys are leaving

04:43:44.820 | and I'm having to check 'em off the roll,

04:43:47.820 | multiple guys are stopping and saying,

04:43:49.660 | "Yo, bro," putting their hand out, shaking my hand

04:43:52.020 | and going, "Good class.

04:43:53.660 | "It was a good class, bro."

04:43:55.500 | Then I have guys coming to me, telling me,

04:43:57.740 | "Hey, what are you teaching these guys?"

04:44:00.740 | I go, "What do you mean?"

04:44:01.580 | He goes, "My cell is telling me he's gonna get out

04:44:03.120 | "and make millions.

04:44:04.160 | "I'm taking Cox's real estate class.

04:44:06.260 | "I'm telling you, I can do this.

04:44:07.160 | "I'm gonna be a millionaire."

04:44:08.660 | And it's like, this flipping houses, like, this is not.

04:44:12.060 | But the truth is, if, you know, it is the,

04:44:15.820 | flipping houses was what I basically told these guys,

04:44:19.660 | especially the drug dealers, right?

04:44:21.860 | You're a drug dealer and you were raised in the projects

04:44:24.020 | and you're going back to the projects.

04:44:25.180 | Like, this is the one industry that you will thrive at

04:44:30.180 | because you're a hustler.

04:44:34.280 | You're not afraid.

04:44:35.420 | A 45-year-old divorced white woman is not going into the hood

04:44:39.540 | knocking on doors to try and flip houses, but you will.

04:44:42.940 | And you know everybody in the neighborhood

04:44:44.220 | and you'll knock on those doors

04:44:45.420 | and you'll hustle and you've been told no before

04:44:47.780 | and you don't care and you're not scared.

04:44:49.900 | And there's tons of money to be made in lower income areas.

04:44:53.460 | And so I, and then when I go through the whole thing

04:44:55.820 | and how you can leverage your credit to borrow money,

04:44:59.780 | to get into the property and do the renovations

04:45:02.540 | with very little money down and I do the whole thing,

04:45:05.140 | these guys, like, they loved it.

04:45:06.300 | So I was, and what that did for me was two things.

04:45:09.860 | One, if you got to the class,

04:45:11.460 | 40 guys show up for the class and I say,

04:45:12.980 | "Look, if you don't wanna go, you don't wanna be here,

04:45:14.520 | "you just want it 'cause your counselor's

04:45:16.500 | "making you get a certificate,

04:45:18.060 | "you don't wanna be here, that's fine.

04:45:20.040 | "Bring me two coffees and like two creamers

04:45:23.140 | "from commissary and I'll fill out all your paperwork

04:45:26.460 | "and you'll pass, you'll get a certificate.

04:45:28.820 | "I don't have to see you again."

04:45:30.980 | I have full of coffee and creamer

04:45:33.380 | 'cause at least 10 or 15 didn't wanna be there.

04:45:35.820 | The other guys seriously wanted to be there

04:45:37.380 | and I don't want those guys to be there anyway,

04:45:38.620 | they're gonna be a problem.

04:45:40.140 | So the other guys are serious about it

04:45:41.860 | and some of these guys sat through the class

04:45:43.460 | two, three, four times.

04:45:44.940 | Some of these guys got out and sent me money.

04:45:48.300 | You know, which is like a huge sign of respect,

04:45:53.940 | you know, by the way, 'cause they don't owe me anything.

04:45:57.540 | But I did that and I taught GED

04:45:59.700 | because, you know, you have to do something for money.

04:46:04.740 | And, you know, I met a bunch of cool guys

04:46:07.620 | and I was hanging out and I was doing well

04:46:09.900 | and after about three years they transferred me

04:46:14.900 | to the low security prison.

04:46:19.580 | At this point, like the FBI starts showing up

04:46:24.460 | asking me questions.

04:46:26.020 | They asked me questions about the politician I bribed,

04:46:29.020 | you know, asked me questions about him.

04:46:31.020 | Statutory limitations was up

04:46:32.140 | and they were trying to tie him into the bank fraud

04:46:36.220 | 'cause his name was Kevin White

04:46:38.100 | and one of my guy's name was Michael Kevin White.

04:46:41.660 | And so they were trying to tie him in, you know,

04:46:44.820 | did he know about it?

04:46:46.220 | 'Cause if he knew about it,

04:46:47.620 | statute of limitations is 10 years.

04:46:49.580 | We could, no, he didn't know.

04:46:51.160 | Should have thrown him in there.

04:46:54.620 | But anyway, 'cause like a couple years later

04:46:56.260 | he gets indicted, he ends up going to jail anyway.

04:46:58.100 | - It could have decreased your sentence.

04:47:00.220 | - Yeah, listen, listen, stop, stop.

04:47:03.600 | Oh my God.

04:47:07.140 | I got all my judgment out after the homeless conversation.

04:47:10.500 | - Listen, it's only gonna get worse.

04:47:14.060 | - I mean, I really appreciate your honesty

04:47:16.860 | and your insight about like about snitching, honestly,

04:47:20.800 | that I have a sense that there's at least a desire

04:47:25.800 | for loyalty in the world.

04:47:27.640 | - Wouldn't that be nice?

04:47:30.100 | - Did you ever feel in danger and medium or low?

04:47:36.900 | - It's funny, I had more problems at the,

04:47:40.660 | probably at the low than I did the medium.

04:47:43.580 | But at the medium, the only thing that happened was

04:47:48.380 | an article came out in the newspaper

04:47:52.700 | when I was at the medium.

04:47:53.540 | It came out and said,

04:47:55.100 | 'cause they're still investigating things.

04:48:00.980 | So this article comes out and I'm on the front page

04:48:04.140 | of the St. Petersburg Times.

04:48:07.200 | It was about the politician, big article.

04:48:09.140 | And in the article, it says they interview Millie,

04:48:12.860 | my lawyer, and she says,

04:48:14.460 | "Well, when Mr. Cox was being interviewed by the FBI,

04:48:17.700 | "one of the first things they wanted to know about

04:48:19.380 | "was this politician."

04:48:22.620 | So she just said Mr. Cox was being interviewed by the FBI.

04:48:27.320 | So I immediately get taken into custody

04:48:30.100 | and they put me in the shoe, the hole, right,

04:48:32.380 | for my own protection.

04:48:33.280 | And I'm there for like 45 days.

04:48:34.780 | And then after 45 days, they're like,

04:48:36.220 | "Cox, what do you want us to do?

04:48:37.640 | "Do you want us to ship you?"

04:48:38.780 | I was like, "No, put me back on the compound."

04:48:41.580 | I'm like, "Half the guys here cooperated."

04:48:43.500 | And he goes, "Yeah, it's more than half."

04:48:45.420 | He said, "But this is a guy from SIS,"

04:48:48.780 | which is like their internal security.

04:48:50.300 | - So that's when he told you

04:48:51.300 | that it's actually a much higher percentage.

04:48:52.820 | - Right, he goes, "But 90,"

04:48:54.860 | he said, "But 100% of them are lying about it."

04:48:56.820 | He said, "You just came out in the newspaper."

04:48:58.460 | I go, "Man, I'm not concerned."

04:48:59.460 | He goes, "You are concerned,

04:49:00.300 | "so you gotta come immediately to the lieutenant's office

04:49:02.540 | "and tell us, we'll ship you."

04:49:04.260 | I said, "Okay."

04:49:05.260 | I get out there.

04:49:06.180 | People are giving me like the looking at me

04:49:09.420 | and what's up, you know,

04:49:11.420 | but I don't have a lot of friends anyway.

04:49:12.940 | And I come there to make friends.

04:49:14.660 | And so at one point, this one guy comes to me,

04:49:17.860 | I'm walking the yard, probably two days later,

04:49:20.780 | after I get back on the compound, I'm walking.

04:49:23.380 | Guy comes to me, he has a goatee,

04:49:25.620 | and it comes down here and he's got a skull,

04:49:27.860 | like a little skull thing he'd made,

04:49:30.140 | whittled out of wood or something.

04:49:31.820 | And, you know, definitely looks scary.

04:49:34.100 | But so I'm walking and he's stopping, he goes,

04:49:35.880 | "Hey, Cox, I've never talked to these guys.

04:49:37.700 | "I had been there for a year or so

04:49:39.620 | "and never talked to any of these guys.

04:49:41.460 | "They're all like bikers and, you know,

04:49:44.080 | "Aryan brotherhood."

04:49:45.420 | And so I'm like, "Yeah, what's up?"

04:49:47.700 | He said, "Bubba, Bubba's their leader."

04:49:50.460 | He goes, "Bubba told me to tell you not to walk the yard.

04:49:54.280 | "He don't wanna see you out in the yard."

04:49:55.940 | And I went, "Okay."

04:49:56.940 | I said, "Well, I'm gonna walk the yard tonight."

04:49:59.980 | I said, "And if I get the shit kicked out of me,

04:50:01.380 | "then I get the shit kicked out of me."

04:50:02.220 | - But did you talk back to a guy

04:50:04.900 | with a wooden skull hanging off his beard?

04:50:06.740 | - I did, but you know what?

04:50:07.740 | It was right in front of the guard shack,

04:50:09.140 | and so there's guards in the guard shack.

04:50:10.940 | You know, like, they're 20 feet away.

04:50:13.180 | - Really, you weren't scared?

04:50:14.420 | - I mean, I think I just got numb.

04:50:17.500 | Like, I'm not stupid, but I'm walking around.

04:50:20.700 | You know, I was scared from the moment I got there on,

04:50:24.040 | if that makes sense.

04:50:25.260 | So you get to a point where you're just numb

04:50:26.820 | and you're waiting for it,

04:50:27.980 | especially when I got out of the shoe.

04:50:29.580 | Got out of the shoe, I went straight to my cell,

04:50:32.020 | laid down, couple minutes later, it was locked down.

04:50:34.340 | They closed the doors.

04:50:35.380 | I wake up the next morning, I go to chow.

04:50:37.400 | I go to my job.

04:50:39.140 | Like, it starts all over again.

04:50:40.900 | So I had a very packed routine.

04:50:44.000 | So I didn't spend, although there's guys everywhere,

04:50:46.340 | and I'm thinking at some point,

04:50:47.820 | I might just be walking around,

04:50:48.960 | a guy might walk up and just smash me in the head,

04:50:51.860 | but it didn't happen.

04:50:53.260 | And it's not the guys aren't getting stabbed,

04:50:55.100 | but they've got it coming.

04:50:56.520 | I didn't tell on anybody here.

04:50:58.560 | I didn't do anything.

04:50:59.400 | It's not that on other yards

04:51:00.620 | I might not have gotten smashed,

04:51:02.880 | but I didn't get smashed.

04:51:04.020 | And I'd been there a while

04:51:04.860 | and I taught the real estate class

04:51:05.980 | and everybody wanted to take real estate.

04:51:08.860 | So I think that insulated me to a degree.

04:51:11.220 | I also had made a few friends there.

04:51:15.620 | And I think they were probably also

04:51:17.320 | kind of putting out the words like,

04:51:18.420 | bro, cut this guy a break.

04:51:20.520 | So I'm walking across and I tell the guy,

04:51:22.460 | I said, look, man, I said, you know,

04:51:23.860 | and I wasn't rude to him.

04:51:25.700 | He wasn't even rude to me, really.

04:51:28.280 | He said, don't walk the yard anymore.

04:51:29.960 | Bubba doesn't want you to walk the yard.

04:51:31.160 | I said, well, listen, I'm gonna go to chow

04:51:32.440 | and then I'm gonna go out there tonight and walk the yard.

04:51:34.560 | And if I get smashed, I get smashed.

04:51:35.980 | I go, because I got 26 years

04:51:37.840 | and I cannot walk around for the next 26 years

04:51:41.120 | not going on the yard.

04:51:42.620 | I said, so I'm gonna be there

04:51:44.480 | and if that happens, then that happens.

04:51:45.760 | And he looked at me and he goes,

04:51:46.920 | man, I don't give a fuck what you do.

04:51:48.400 | That's what Bubba told me to tell you.

04:51:50.280 | He said, I told you.

04:51:51.280 | And he goes, I don't give a shit what you do.

04:51:52.760 | And he walked off.

04:51:54.200 | I went out there that night with a buddy of mine named Zach,

04:51:58.380 | a guy named John Gordon,

04:52:00.060 | with my cousin and a couple of his buddies.

04:52:02.180 | We walked the track for about an hour.

04:52:04.060 | Bubba and a group of his guys stood there and looked at us.

04:52:07.300 | And as we walked, probably closest we got to him

04:52:09.180 | was 30 or 40 feet.

04:52:11.160 | That went on for 30 minutes.

04:52:12.780 | And then they kind of broke up and went their separate ways.

04:52:14.740 | And, you know, there was a couple of times

04:52:16.540 | where I would go to the chow hall

04:52:18.140 | and I would go and I'd be sitting at a table

04:52:21.180 | and Bubba would walk up and tell the other guys at the table,

04:52:23.820 | I want to let you guys know you're,

04:52:25.320 | he didn't even call me a snitch.

04:52:26.640 | He said, you're sitting with a cooperating witness.

04:52:30.040 | He said, that's how you want to roll.

04:52:31.880 | He said, you ain't going to be rolling with us

04:52:33.200 | if there's any trouble.

04:52:34.680 | And then they all kind of looked at me

04:52:36.320 | and they got up, got their plate and they moved off.

04:52:38.960 | He didn't tell me to move.

04:52:41.080 | And he could have walked up and said,

04:52:42.000 | this is a snitch motherfucker.

04:52:43.120 | He didn't do that.

04:52:44.400 | Bubba was very respectful.

04:52:45.680 | So as respectful as he could be.

04:52:47.960 | - Whatever you want to say about Bubba,

04:52:49.760 | he was a respectful man.

04:52:50.840 | You ever talked to him directly?

04:52:52.320 | - Never had a conversation with him.

04:52:54.280 | So that went on, but I mean, when I say that went on,

04:52:56.780 | I mean, like literally like that's a couple of times.

04:52:59.260 | He said the same thing to a guy in line one time.

04:53:02.220 | Guy came up to me later and said, look, man,

04:53:03.700 | but I'm sorry, Matt, he was standing next to me in line.

04:53:05.580 | Bubba said something to him.

04:53:06.580 | He went like 10 or 15 people back and stood in line.

04:53:09.620 | Later on, he came up to me, Matt, I'm sorry, bro,

04:53:12.640 | but you know, I said, bro, I said, look, I get it.

04:53:17.160 | We're not friends.

04:53:18.000 | Don't worry about it.

04:53:18.820 | And here's the thing.

04:53:19.980 | At some point there, I got, I ended up getting,

04:53:24.120 | well, the FBI started showing up there at the prison,

04:53:27.960 | questioning me about my files in Tampa,

04:53:32.280 | the room of the 12 guys that were indicted.

04:53:34.840 | They show up and they start asking me about it.

04:53:37.720 | And so they're still kind of working it.

04:53:39.740 | Well, at the same time,

04:53:40.680 | I ended up getting moved to the low security prison.

04:53:43.460 | I get to low security prison.

04:53:45.120 | They show up over and over again.

04:53:49.200 | But at some point they come to me and they say,

04:53:51.860 | look, we went to the U.S. attorney.

04:53:55.320 | We presented everything we have.

04:53:57.200 | We have, I have enough for an invest,

04:53:59.900 | I have enough to indict all of these guys.

04:54:03.260 | I think it was whittled down to maybe eight instead of 12.

04:54:06.640 | And they said, look, the entire economy's melting down.

04:54:10.560 | At this point, some of these are four or five years old.

04:54:17.860 | We've got banks that are melting down right now.

04:54:19.800 | We got 100, 200, 300 million, 500,

04:54:22.540 | half a billion dollar banks that we're investigating.

04:54:25.220 | We don't have time to deal with this.

04:54:27.100 | We're not gonna, and we're not going to indict those people.

04:54:29.500 | So they get away.

04:54:31.180 | The agent I was working with,

04:54:32.380 | her name was Leslie Nelson, very nice person.

04:54:36.380 | She came, actually didn't have to do this,

04:54:38.340 | came to the prison to tell me this is what happened.

04:54:42.660 | And when she'd first come to see me,

04:54:44.220 | I told her, listen, I wanna do all this,

04:54:47.460 | but no matter what happens,

04:54:50.440 | I need you to write me a letter.

04:54:52.460 | If they don't indict these people,

04:54:55.420 | I need you to write me a letter

04:54:56.760 | that I can present to the US attorney

04:54:59.300 | on my behalf that I did everything I could.

04:55:01.740 | And she goes, I'll do that, but that's not gonna happen.

04:55:03.840 | We're gonna get the indictments and everything.

04:55:04.680 | I was like, okay.

04:55:05.820 | So of course, a year later,

04:55:07.100 | she shows up after nothing happens

04:55:08.860 | and they've dropped the case.

04:55:09.860 | She shows up and she tells me what happened

04:55:11.340 | and he's not gonna do it.

04:55:12.500 | I was, I go, do you remember that you,

04:55:14.020 | she goes, I got the letter right now.

04:55:15.900 | Gave me the letter.

04:55:16.740 | She was like, that's it, great letter.

04:55:19.560 | It says, Mr. Cox has worked, blah, blah, blah.

04:55:23.540 | He's done this, this is great.

04:55:25.240 | And even said, he deserves a reduction in my opinion,

04:55:27.980 | blah, blah, blah.

04:55:29.020 | So, but there's nobody, nobody was arrested.

04:55:33.140 | So I call my public defender, I call Millie,

04:55:36.580 | I explain it to her and she starts crying and she's sorry.

04:55:41.580 | And well, what are we gonna do?

04:55:45.360 | Well, there's nothing you can do.

04:55:47.260 | You're time barred.

04:55:48.840 | Like you have one year to file a 2255,

04:55:53.340 | which is to say that your lawyer is ineffective

04:55:57.260 | or that the court has made a mistake in some way.

04:56:00.620 | And it had been over a year.

04:56:02.220 | It had been years.

04:56:04.300 | It had been like four years.

04:56:05.420 | And she's like, yeah, I mean, you're just,

04:56:06.660 | there's nothing you can do.

04:56:07.700 | And she's in tears and I kind of feel like I'm done.

04:56:12.240 | At that point, I'm done.

04:56:13.940 | And what I do is I start writing a book, right?

04:56:16.560 | I write a memoir, my memoir.

04:56:18.180 | And this is not a shameless plug for my memoir, by the way,

04:56:23.640 | which is amazing, just saying.

04:56:25.700 | But, so what happens is I actually write it.

04:56:30.700 | I write it and then I have to rewrite it, right?

04:56:35.020 | 'Cause I don't really know what I'm doing.

04:56:37.020 | And I'd been reading true crime and that sort of thing.

04:56:39.160 | And I've always liked true crime.

04:56:41.020 | I get a literary agent, comes to see me,

04:56:44.300 | tells me I have to rewrite some stuff.

04:56:45.560 | We rewrite it.

04:56:46.800 | As I'm finishing up my memoir,

04:56:48.360 | there's a guy that comes on the compound

04:56:50.260 | and his name is Ephraim Devaroli.

04:56:53.460 | Ephraim Devaroli and his business partner,

04:56:57.520 | a guy named David Packhouse were selling munitions,

04:57:02.420 | AK-47 rounds, really tons of munitions,

04:57:05.120 | but they got in trouble with this.

04:57:07.100 | And they were selling them to the U.S. government

04:57:10.380 | for the Afghani security forces.

04:57:13.420 | And there had been an article

04:57:14.500 | in "Rolling Stone" magazine about him and I'd read it.

04:57:17.420 | And somebody points him out and says,

04:57:18.660 | "Hey, that's that guy."

04:57:20.180 | And I went up to him and said,

04:57:21.020 | "Hey, bro, you just got here?"

04:57:22.520 | He's like, "Yeah."

04:57:23.360 | I said, "Look, if you wanna write a memoir or anything,

04:57:25.140 | "I'm finishing my memoir.

04:57:26.200 | "I can always help you.

04:57:27.020 | "I can help you write an outline.

04:57:28.080 | "You can get a professional writer,

04:57:29.300 | "whatever it is you need help."

04:57:30.340 | He's like, "Yeah, all right."

04:57:31.740 | Ephraim Devaroli was played by Jonah Hill

04:57:34.020 | in the movie "Wardogs."

04:57:37.020 | So a few months later, he comes to me and says,

04:57:41.120 | "Hey, they sold the movie rights."

04:57:43.620 | I was like, "Oh, wow, that's great."

04:57:46.180 | And I'm like, "And you don't wanna write a memoir?"

04:57:49.560 | And he's like, "Yeah, man,

04:57:50.400 | "it was sold to the guys from the 'Hangover' movie."

04:57:52.800 | And I was like, "So the guys from the 'Hangover' movie

04:57:55.960 | "are going to make a movie about you."

04:57:58.700 | I said, "You understand they're gonna call it

04:58:00.100 | "'Dude, where's my hand grenade?'

04:58:02.460 | "And you're gonna be Spicoli

04:58:03.680 | "from 'Fast Time' at Ridgemont High.

04:58:05.500 | "Like, you're gonna be a joke,

04:58:07.220 | "all because you don't wanna write a memoir.

04:58:09.900 | "And get your version out there."

04:58:11.420 | And he was like, "Holy shit."

04:58:12.980 | So I ended up writing an outline for him.

04:58:14.940 | We worked together.

04:58:16.140 | And then he asked, "Can I read your book?"

04:58:17.460 | I was like, "Sure."

04:58:18.300 | And I give it to him, and he reads it.

04:58:20.020 | And he comes back and he said, "Bro, this is the best thing

04:58:21.980 | "I've ever read in my life."

04:58:24.140 | And to be honest, I later found out he'd read

04:58:26.620 | about three books in his entire life.

04:58:27.940 | But still, it was very nice.

04:58:30.540 | - Still beat out the other two.

04:58:32.000 | - So he asked me if I'll write his book.

04:58:34.360 | I write his book.

04:58:35.200 | We work out a deal.

04:58:36.100 | And we do that.

04:58:40.660 | And I'm saying all this because I basically settle in.

04:58:43.660 | I'm done.

04:58:44.940 | I'm gonna do 26 years.

04:58:46.340 | - By the way, just on a small tangent,

04:58:48.500 | how did you know you'd be good at writing?

04:58:52.560 | - I'd kind of written a manuscript

04:58:54.420 | prior to even taking off on the run.

04:58:56.900 | I used to listen to John Grisham books.

04:58:59.860 | You know, I'd listen to 'em in the car.

04:59:01.540 | Like, I liked John Grisham books.

04:59:03.020 | And I'd actually written a manuscript

04:59:04.540 | about a mortgage broker.

04:59:06.700 | You know, he writes about lawyers,

04:59:07.840 | and it's like, being a lawyer's not exciting.

04:59:09.480 | If you can make that sound exciting,

04:59:11.360 | I can make being a mortgage broker.

04:59:13.240 | And I wrote a book, you know, put it at my desk.

04:59:16.860 | And, you know, the FBI found it.

04:59:19.720 | And they had, you know, said, "Oh, it's a blueprint

04:59:22.340 | "to the fraud that he's going to commit."

04:59:24.200 | It wasn't.

04:59:25.040 | Stop.

04:59:25.860 | It's as much, that character was as much me

04:59:28.440 | as John Grisham's characters are him.

04:59:31.200 | - But it's still kind of interesting that--

04:59:33.200 | - It is.

04:59:34.040 | - John Grisham didn't--

04:59:35.480 | - Right.

04:59:36.320 | I mean, you know, if John Grisham did something similar

04:59:39.760 | to what one of the--

04:59:40.580 | - Yeah.

04:59:41.420 | I saw a quote somewhere that the criminal is a true artist,

04:59:46.420 | and the detective is merely a critic.

04:59:51.800 | Something like that.

04:59:52.800 | Does that resonate with you or not?

04:59:54.600 | - I'll have to look that up.

04:59:55.840 | - Okay.

04:59:56.680 | So you already knew you could write.

04:59:58.280 | - Well, I knew I liked it.

04:59:59.180 | But yeah, I think I got better and better at it.

05:00:00.960 | I mean, you know, as you're writing.

05:00:02.020 | And they had creative writing classes, you know,

05:00:04.020 | in prison at the low.

05:00:05.780 | You know, the low was a much different breed of animal.

05:00:10.420 | You know, like it, you know, it was,

05:00:12.300 | you could very easily get hurt.

05:00:13.900 | You could get hurt either place.

05:00:15.420 | But there were guys that have life sentences

05:00:19.020 | that had been working out for 20 years

05:00:21.020 | and were just super angry, you know, at the medium.

05:00:24.100 | And if you got hurt at the medium,

05:00:25.540 | it was probably really go bad.

05:00:28.500 | As opposed to you get hurt at the low,

05:00:30.500 | it's more like a fist fight in high school.

05:00:34.540 | So with knives.

05:00:37.100 | So anyway, I, so I'm there, I'm writing, I'm doing that.

05:00:42.100 | And there was a guy on the compound

05:00:46.400 | that came on the compound about that same time.

05:00:48.140 | His name was Frank Amadeo.

05:00:49.920 | Frank Amadeo is a rapid cycling bipolar

05:00:54.660 | with features of schizophrenia.

05:00:56.820 | - Rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia.

05:01:00.700 | - So it's just constant, right?

05:01:03.540 | And so there are moments in his manic state

05:01:06.700 | where he, his reoccurring psychosis, I guess,

05:01:11.700 | is that he believes, and since he was in his early teens,

05:01:15.620 | has believed that he is preordained by God

05:01:18.700 | to be emperor of the world.

05:01:20.160 | He's a lawyer, disbarred,

05:01:23.960 | stole close to $200 million from the federal government.

05:01:26.760 | They gave him 22 years and they sent him to Coleman.

05:01:29.820 | But it doesn't, this is the part I love,

05:01:34.180 | the delusions don't affect his legal work.

05:01:36.540 | Doesn't say a ton for legal community, but--

05:01:40.900 | - How do you know he's delusional?

05:01:42.700 | I'm just asking questions.

05:01:43.900 | - Yeah, he's, trust me, he, I mean, it's not me.

05:01:47.060 | It's like the transcripts, the lawyers, the doctors,

05:01:50.820 | the, you know, there's a ton of, a ton.

05:01:54.440 | And then if you saw him in action,

05:01:56.000 | you'd be like, oh, wow.

05:01:57.100 | - Yeah.

05:01:57.940 | - You know, he'd be, he would be completely normal.

05:02:00.140 | He would be having a completely normal conversation.

05:02:02.740 | And somebody would say something and he was, he'd go,

05:02:07.500 | that makes me so angry, I, I, I can't,

05:02:11.020 | I'm not gonna let them do that.

05:02:12.220 | When my legions march on Washington,

05:02:16.600 | we are going to burn the Constitution

05:02:18.860 | and the president will kneel at my feet.

05:02:24.180 | And he goes.

05:02:25.020 | I'm gonna need your transcripts.

05:02:31.120 | I'm gonna need a 2255 form.

05:02:33.280 | We're gonna file a, you know, and it would just,

05:02:35.180 | and everybody would sit there and be like,

05:02:36.620 | okay, Frank, I'll get this and I'll get.

05:02:38.420 | It was insane.

05:02:39.260 | It was the most insane.

05:02:40.080 | He was basically running a medium-sized law firm

05:02:42.960 | from inside of the prison.

05:02:44.480 | He was training people.

05:02:46.120 | He taught the, he taught the,

05:02:48.760 | the legal research class and was training people

05:02:53.360 | on how to do legal research in prison,

05:02:56.000 | how to put together motions, how to fight,

05:02:59.140 | fight their cases, how to do the research,

05:03:01.300 | how to type them up, everything.

05:03:03.020 | He's teaching, he's teaching a law,

05:03:05.840 | it's like a law school, right?

05:03:07.040 | Like he's teaching these guys.

05:03:08.240 | He, they made such a mistake locking this guy up.

05:03:11.280 | - So he's a great lawyer.

05:03:12.520 | - Listen, it's gonna get worse.

05:03:14.340 | It's gonna get worse because here's what happens

05:03:16.120 | is at this point, I don't talk to him

05:03:18.560 | for probably a year or so

05:03:20.200 | because everybody's saying he's crazy, you know?

05:03:22.680 | And he's, and for like a year, he gets there,

05:03:24.880 | he's drooling out of the side of his mouth.

05:03:26.480 | They got him on a ton of medication.

05:03:28.040 | It takes him about a year to get them

05:03:29.920 | to take him off the medication.

05:03:31.600 | So he gets them to take him off the medication.

05:03:33.960 | And then he starts kind of stabilizing his mood

05:03:36.280 | by drinking Pepsi.

05:03:37.580 | I know, but it's crazy.

05:03:40.400 | I know it's crazy.

05:03:41.240 | I know how, I see, I see you looking at me

05:03:42.700 | like this guy's delusional.

05:03:43.660 | I know.

05:03:44.500 | - It works, whatever works.

05:03:45.880 | - So at some point, one of my buddies comes to me

05:03:49.480 | and says, look, you gotta go talk to Frank.

05:03:52.320 | Wait, here's the other thing.

05:03:53.160 | Over the course of a year or two

05:03:54.320 | that he starts doing legal work for guys,

05:03:56.560 | he starts just taking on guys' cases.

05:03:58.880 | I'll do the motion.

05:03:59.720 | I'll do your legal work.

05:04:00.640 | I'll do this.

05:04:01.560 | Keeps him busy.

05:04:03.000 | But suddenly you start hearing people get released.

05:04:06.140 | Jimmy just got 10 years knocked off his sentence.

05:04:10.320 | He's going to halfway house next month.

05:04:13.200 | Tom got an immediate release.

05:04:16.040 | Frank's walking people up to R&D, shaking their hands.

05:04:19.340 | Guys are walking up to him in tears, crying.

05:04:22.400 | And so, you know, crazy or not, what choice do I have?

05:04:27.400 | I called three different lawyers on the street

05:04:31.940 | and said, this is what happened.

05:04:33.620 | What can I do?

05:04:35.240 | What can I do?

05:04:36.140 | They had me, they told me to do this and this and this,

05:04:38.820 | and I worked with them,

05:04:39.660 | and then they decided not to proceed.

05:04:41.260 | And what can I do?

05:04:42.340 | And they said, you're hit, bro.

05:04:44.220 | There's nothing you can do.

05:04:45.260 | You cannot, in the 11th circuit,

05:04:48.500 | you cannot force them to file a reduction on your behalf.

05:04:52.860 | You cannot do it.

05:04:53.900 | It's impossible.

05:04:54.740 | You're hit, you're done, it's over.

05:04:56.500 | I'd love to take your money, Mr. Cox,

05:04:59.060 | but it's not going to happen.

05:04:59.900 | I can't, I'm just going to take your money.

05:05:01.780 | You're going to lose.

05:05:02.800 | Three different lawyers.

05:05:03.660 | I talked to, our TI's lawyer told me,

05:05:07.660 | bro, it's not going to happen, it's over.

05:05:09.960 | So my buddy says, go talk to Frank.

05:05:14.060 | I said, well, why wouldn't I?

05:05:15.980 | I got nothing else to lose.

05:05:16.900 | So I go talk to Frank.

05:05:17.980 | He actually has a little manic moment.

05:05:19.740 | That little thing that I just showed you,

05:05:21.460 | that's exactly what he said the first time I talked to him.

05:05:24.260 | - Based on your case.

05:05:25.220 | - Yes.

05:05:26.040 | I won't let this happen.

05:05:27.100 | He's like, I'm going to need your transcripts.

05:05:28.180 | I'm going to need you to get this.

05:05:29.020 | I need to see your indictment.

05:05:29.900 | I'm going to need your pre-sentence report.

05:05:31.460 | I'm going to need, he's like, okay.

05:05:33.100 | And I turned to my buddy, he's like, bro, I know.

05:05:34.940 | I know what you're thinking.

05:05:35.860 | It's fine.

05:05:36.700 | I'm like, it's fucking crazy.

05:05:37.900 | And he's like, I understand.

05:05:39.340 | Let just, what choice do you have?

05:05:42.020 | I was like, fuck.

05:05:43.660 | So Frank files a 2255 motion on my behalf,

05:05:48.260 | stating that I'm not time-barred,

05:05:52.020 | that Millie was,

05:05:54.460 | we file it against Millie,

05:05:57.400 | stating that she was ineffective.

05:05:59.100 | That she didn't understand the law.

05:06:03.180 | She had me plead to something

05:06:04.460 | 'cause she thought I could get a reduction

05:06:06.620 | simply for doing dateline.

05:06:10.020 | Oh, by the way, when I was in the medium,

05:06:11.440 | the government came to me and asked me

05:06:12.700 | to be interviewed by American Greed.

05:06:15.340 | I do that.

05:06:16.160 | I'm interviewed.

05:06:17.000 | You know, they get me on the phone.

05:06:17.860 | They talk to me, everything.

05:06:19.220 | The prosecutor wants me to do it.

05:06:21.220 | She's re-interviewed.

05:06:22.180 | Everybody's re-interviewed.

05:06:23.540 | It airs.

05:06:24.740 | Millie goes to the government and says,

05:06:27.020 | look, reduce the sentence.

05:06:27.860 | They go, no, Millie, it's not enough.

05:06:29.520 | Then they come to me and they ask me

05:06:31.020 | to write an ethics and fraud course.

05:06:34.060 | I write an ethics and fraud course.

05:06:35.460 | The guy I write the course with,

05:06:36.900 | they flies up to Atlanta.

05:06:38.700 | He talks with, I think he drove up,

05:06:40.040 | but he goes up to Atlanta.

05:06:41.380 | He talks with a U.S. attorney, talks to Millie.

05:06:43.580 | She insists if he does this, I will reduce his sentence.

05:06:46.940 | I will definitely consider this, definitely consider.

05:06:50.720 | - Yeah, definitely consider.

05:06:52.140 | - And then we do it.

05:06:53.140 | It's being used all over the nation.

05:06:55.160 | Not enough.

05:06:57.980 | - Considered it.

05:06:58.940 | - That's where, at this point, I go to Frank.

05:07:01.760 | I tell Frank what's happening.

05:07:03.420 | Frank says, yeah, this is, he goes,

05:07:04.860 | every time they asked you to do something,

05:07:07.100 | it reset the time bar.

05:07:08.900 | You have a year from that time to file a 2255.

05:07:11.240 | Now, he insists that that was a viable argument.

05:07:14.700 | Nobody else does.

05:07:16.180 | But he said, I'm not gonna let them do this.

05:07:17.900 | I'm gonna take care of this.

05:07:18.860 | I'm gonna get your sentence reduced.

05:07:20.580 | Okay.

05:07:21.420 | Emperor.

05:07:23.940 | Okay, emperor.

05:07:26.340 | So, he is a character.

05:07:29.940 | Anyway, he, so he files a 2255.

05:07:32.960 | The government comes back.

05:07:35.060 | They say, he's time barred.

05:07:37.260 | Frank comes back.

05:07:38.840 | You know, they answer his motion.

05:07:40.680 | He files a retort.

05:07:42.880 | They file, you know, it just goes back and forth.

05:07:45.800 | It's on for six months to a year.

05:07:48.120 | And at some point, I go to mail call,

05:07:51.520 | and they call my name, and they hand me this thing,

05:07:54.480 | and I open it up, and it says,

05:07:56.560 | the government's filed a motion for a stay

05:07:59.680 | so that they can, they want the court to appoint me a lawyer

05:08:05.680 | and to discuss filing a Rule 35, reducing my sentence.

05:08:10.680 | And I, you know, I'm like, I read it,

05:08:14.420 | but I couldn't even understand.

05:08:15.580 | Like, well, I don't understand.

05:08:16.420 | So, I mean, I rushed to go find Frank.

05:08:18.200 | I show it to Frank, and he says,

05:08:20.140 | he says, yeah, they're staying it.

05:08:21.560 | They're gonna send you a lawyer,

05:08:22.740 | and you're gonna negotiate

05:08:24.100 | for how much they're gonna reduce your sentence.

05:08:27.440 | He says, perfect.

05:08:28.740 | So, they fly this woman down.

05:08:31.100 | Her name was Esther Panitch.

05:08:32.500 | She flies down.

05:08:35.420 | We, comes to the visitation room.

05:08:37.120 | They bring me there, the lawyer's room,

05:08:38.460 | whatever they call it.

05:08:39.580 | And so, we're sitting there, and I remember we're talking,

05:08:42.020 | and she says, listen, your motion, your 2255,

05:08:45.460 | it's written well, but honestly,

05:08:46.980 | you don't have much of a prayer,

05:08:49.060 | and they're offering you a one-level reduction,

05:08:52.540 | which is 30 months.

05:08:55.620 | And I went, oh, that's not enough.

05:09:00.280 | And she said, well, I don't know what to tell you.

05:09:03.340 | She said, they're willing to bring you back.

05:09:06.980 | And I was like, well, I mean, I don't know.

05:09:11.980 | I gotta talk to Frank.

05:09:13.460 | Frank said I deserve this many levels,

05:09:15.060 | and we're going back and forth.

05:09:16.260 | She goes, who's Frank?

05:09:17.100 | And I go, Frank's the guy that's doing all my legal work.

05:09:18.700 | She goes, he didn't write all this?

05:09:20.000 | And I was like, no.

05:09:20.840 | She goes, who wrote it?

05:09:21.660 | And I explain it to her, and she's like, he's an inmate?

05:09:23.720 | And I was like, yeah.

05:09:24.560 | And she's, why is he here?

05:09:25.620 | And I tell her, well, 'cause he stole a bunch of money

05:09:27.620 | from the federal government,

05:09:28.460 | 'cause he's trying to take over the world.

05:09:29.660 | So, I tell her that whole thing,

05:09:31.060 | and she's like, you're letting a mentally incompetent

05:09:36.060 | person do your legal work.

05:09:40.140 | And I was like, yeah,

05:09:40.980 | because all the competent attorneys wouldn't do it.

05:09:43.780 | They said I didn't have a prayer.

05:09:45.380 | Your people said I didn't have a prayer.

05:09:47.700 | And I said, Frank said he could get this done.

05:09:50.260 | And she's like, well, I mean,

05:09:52.220 | I don't even know why they're offering you one level.

05:09:56.340 | I was like, well, Frank said,

05:09:58.540 | and I'm like, Frank this, Frank that.

05:09:59.700 | And so, I end up saying, she's like,

05:10:01.580 | you're taking advice from a legally incompetent person.

05:10:04.780 | I said, yeah.

05:10:05.620 | And she said, you really don't have a prayer.

05:10:08.180 | I said, then why are you here?

05:10:10.540 | I said, if they could crush me so easily, why are you here?

05:10:14.260 | I said, they're giving me one level.

05:10:17.380 | Let me talk to Frank.

05:10:18.200 | I'll let you know what we're gonna do.

05:10:19.200 | So, I leave.

05:10:20.720 | I call her a couple days later.

05:10:21.940 | I talk to Frank.

05:10:23.100 | Frank said, go back.

05:10:24.140 | Go back and argue for more.

05:10:27.100 | He said, I think the judge is gonna give you more.

05:10:28.740 | He's gonna give you at least between whatever,

05:10:31.140 | he said like six or seven levels or something.

05:10:33.980 | So, I get moved all the way back to Atlanta.

05:10:37.140 | The FBI agent comes to talk on my behalf.

05:10:40.700 | The guy that, like multiple people show up

05:10:43.060 | to talk on my behalf.

05:10:44.660 | They say, Millie, who I filed the 2255 against.

05:10:49.580 | So, I'm basically saying, you're ineffective.

05:10:52.640 | You're incompetent.

05:10:53.580 | But she knows the game.

05:10:55.380 | She's like, I get it.

05:10:56.640 | She gets on the stand and testifies for me.

05:11:00.740 | So, the judge goes, you know, listen,

05:11:05.780 | I think we were asking for like nine levels

05:11:07.580 | or something outrageous.

05:11:09.380 | Prosecutor starts arguing for one level.

05:11:11.620 | And he said, listen, one level is not nearly enough

05:11:16.620 | for what Mr. Cox has done.

05:11:18.380 | He said, Mr. Cox, I know you're arguing

05:11:20.460 | for nine levels off your sentence.

05:11:23.020 | He goes, that was never gonna happen.

05:11:24.780 | I'm just like, I felt like I got slapped.

05:11:28.040 | And he said, so I'm gonna go with six levels.

05:11:31.040 | No, no, I'm sorry, he said three levels.

05:11:32.560 | I'm gonna go with three levels.

05:11:33.680 | He goes, which is seven years.

05:11:36.720 | Which he said, for somebody who has no arrest

05:11:39.420 | associated with this case, he said, I think it's pretty good

05:11:43.360 | and that's his judgment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

05:11:45.600 | And he hammered, put the gavel down and walks off.

05:11:48.720 | That's it, it's over, I got seven years.

05:11:50.560 | And I was hoping for more.

05:11:51.880 | So, I get moved back to Coleman.

05:11:54.200 | I get moved back to Coleman and I go up to Frank

05:11:57.220 | and I said, Frank, I got seven years off.

05:11:59.200 | And he's like, I know, I know.

05:12:01.200 | I said, I don't mean to sound unappreciative.

05:12:04.380 | I said, I just, I said, I was hoping for more.

05:12:07.800 | He goes, I was too.

05:12:08.940 | He said, it looks like we're gonna have to eat

05:12:11.100 | this elephant one spoonful at a time.

05:12:14.120 | And he goes, something will come out.

05:12:16.860 | Something's gonna happen.

05:12:18.440 | He said, keep your ears open, something will happen.

05:12:23.440 | And I said, okay.

05:12:24.880 | And honestly, by that point, I'd done eight years

05:12:29.680 | and I remember if I got a year off for the drug program

05:12:32.400 | and good time and this and that, I had about eight

05:12:34.120 | or eight years left to go or something, nine years left.

05:12:37.120 | And I was like, I can do that, I'll write.

05:12:40.160 | I'd been writing.

05:12:41.300 | By that point, I'd actually written a story.

05:12:48.080 | Like I got a book deal for Debroli.

05:12:52.340 | You know?

05:12:53.180 | And I ended up writing a synopsis of a guy's story

05:12:59.920 | and I got him in Rolling Stone Magazine

05:13:03.580 | and I got a book deal for that.

05:13:04.820 | Like I got it in advance, it was like 3,500 bucks.

05:13:07.420 | For being in prison, a prisoner to get a $3,500 advance,

05:13:10.340 | like, I'm a millionaire, that's a lot of money.

05:13:13.420 | So, and then we optioned the film rights.

05:13:17.580 | Basically, the synopsis that I wrote for this reporter,

05:13:21.940 | journalist for Rolling Stone,

05:13:23.700 | he goes to Rolling Stone with what I wrote

05:13:27.140 | and gives it to them and they okay it.

05:13:28.740 | They say, yeah, this is great.

05:13:29.700 | We want you to write an article based on this.

05:13:31.660 | Okay, he writes the article.

05:13:33.100 | He tells me that the article will be from him,

05:13:38.100 | his name, Guy Lawson, Douglas Dodd,

05:13:42.140 | which is the name of the kid I wrote the memoir about,

05:13:44.580 | and Matthew Cox.

05:13:45.940 | Couple of weeks before the article is going to be published,

05:13:51.700 | he tells me Rolling Stone doesn't want my name

05:13:56.000 | on the article because I'm in federal prison

05:13:58.300 | and it doesn't look good.

05:14:00.500 | But don't worry, he's gonna put my name in the article

05:14:05.500 | and that's just as good.

05:14:07.100 | And I argue, it's not just as good, it's not.

05:14:10.180 | I'm like, I would be a writer for Rolling Stone Magazine.

05:14:13.660 | Like you understand, I'm trying to come up

05:14:15.860 | with something here that I can rebuild my life

05:14:18.700 | as a true crime writer.

05:14:20.780 | That's no good.

05:14:21.860 | And that wasn't so bad.

05:14:25.100 | That wasn't the worst of it.

05:14:25.940 | The worst of it was 90% of the article that he published

05:14:30.940 | was taken directly from what I sent him.

05:14:35.460 | Like, I mean, sick to my stomach, bro.

05:14:38.640 | Just sick over it.

05:14:41.060 | But they optioned the life rights for that.

05:14:44.620 | And I got a piece of that.

05:14:46.460 | So there's like $7,000.

05:14:48.120 | I get a check for that.

05:14:48.960 | So I'm thrilled, I can keep writing

05:14:50.700 | 'cause you have to understand,

05:14:51.620 | writing on the computer there, they charge you.

05:14:54.260 | So I start writing, oh, they charge you for phone calls,

05:14:56.260 | writing, every single thing costs money.

05:14:59.020 | So I start writing all these guys' stories.

05:15:01.500 | I start writing books.

05:15:02.820 | I just come back from, went back to Atlanta,

05:15:07.660 | got seven years knocked off my sentence, come back,

05:15:11.460 | and I'm walking around the compound.

05:15:14.260 | Now, there was a guy that was there named Ron Wilson.

05:15:18.580 | Ron Wilson ran, if you look in the newspaper,

05:15:22.200 | it says it's like a $100 million Ponzi scheme,

05:15:25.080 | but really it was $57 million.

05:15:27.320 | So he had lost 57 million.

05:15:29.600 | So it says 100, you know, they always exaggerate

05:15:32.400 | 'cause 57 is not enough.

05:15:34.400 | Ron ended up getting 19 and a half years.

05:15:38.540 | Ron was an old con man, early '60s, '62, '61, I don't know.

05:15:43.540 | And Ron, and I liked Ron.

05:15:48.360 | So we're walking around the compound and he's like,

05:15:54.760 | "So what are you gonna do?

05:15:55.600 | I mean, you got like eight or nine more years to go."

05:15:57.840 | And I was like, eh, you know, I'm gonna keep writing.

05:15:59.820 | And when I get out of here,

05:16:00.980 | maybe I'll have a huge body of work

05:16:02.640 | and maybe I'll be able to sell it

05:16:04.180 | or maybe I'll be able to option some more stuff.

05:16:05.940 | And if I could get together with Rolling Stone

05:16:07.500 | or get with some of these magazines,

05:16:09.180 | I could start writing for them and I could option those.

05:16:11.220 | Maybe I could walk out of here with something.

05:16:13.500 | So, right, right, right.

05:16:15.580 | So Ron was, who'd only been locked up like a year or so,

05:16:18.900 | he was cooperating with the Secret Service in his case

05:16:22.840 | against some of his co-defendants.

05:16:25.300 | So he's already been debriefed and he's cooperating.

05:16:27.940 | He's actually thinking he might get brought back

05:16:30.600 | to have to testify at a trial.

05:16:32.500 | We're talking and we're walking.

05:16:36.540 | And he keeps saying, "You know, even if I,

05:16:39.180 | even if they charge those guys and even if this happens,

05:16:42.460 | they're not gonna reduce my sentence.

05:16:43.620 | They're not gonna cut my sentence."

05:16:45.700 | And, you know, first of all,

05:16:46.540 | well, probably because you stole a bunch of money

05:16:48.540 | from pension funds and churches.

05:16:50.780 | That didn't help your case, but I don't say that.

05:16:53.820 | So I say, "Oh, they have to, bro, they'll have to.

05:16:57.220 | They've, you know, if you cooperate,

05:16:58.500 | they're gonna have you.

05:16:59.340 | If you don't, we'll have Frank file a 2255."

05:17:02.800 | And he's like, "Ah, that crazy."

05:17:06.140 | So he says, "Okay."

05:17:07.660 | He's like, "Yeah, yeah, you don't understand.

05:17:09.380 | You don't understand."

05:17:10.220 | So this goes on for months and I'm like,

05:17:13.700 | "What is the problem?"

05:17:14.820 | And he says, "You know, they think I hid Ponzi scheme money."

05:17:17.820 | You know?

05:17:19.620 | And he'd actually dug up like five or $6 million

05:17:23.020 | in Ponzi scheme proceeds that he dug.

05:17:25.060 | He buried in these-

05:17:28.160 | - Oh, literally.

05:17:29.000 | - Literally buried in aluminum ammunition canisters.

05:17:33.860 | A super interesting guy.

05:17:35.300 | So he actually went and dug them up and gave them to him.

05:17:38.800 | And I'm like, "Well, you gave him all the money.

05:17:40.380 | You didn't hide anything.

05:17:41.220 | Relax, it's not a big deal.

05:17:42.260 | They're not gonna find anything, so don't worry about it."

05:17:44.420 | And so he mentions it a couple of weeks later,

05:17:46.860 | a couple of weeks later.

05:17:47.700 | And then one day I go,

05:17:48.520 | "Bro, why do you keep bringing this up?

05:17:50.760 | Like, what are you concerned about?

05:17:53.540 | It's not gonna happen."

05:17:54.680 | And he said, "Can I trust you?"

05:17:59.680 | And I went, "Probably not."

05:18:01.820 | And he goes, "I did hide some money."

05:18:06.820 | I was like, "Okay."

05:18:08.680 | I said, "Did you bury it in a can somewhere?"

05:18:11.280 | And he's like, "No."

05:18:12.120 | He said, "I gave my wife like 150,000 in cash."

05:18:17.120 | I said, "Okay, well, she's not gonna say anything.

05:18:19.760 | She's using it."

05:18:20.600 | He said, "No, you don't understand.

05:18:21.600 | Since then, she found out I was having an affair.

05:18:24.620 | And we're gonna get a divorce, and she hates me.

05:18:28.560 | And I think she'll turn that money in

05:18:30.840 | just to make sure that I don't get a reduction.

05:18:33.200 | 'Cause if you lie to the FBI,

05:18:35.840 | they're not gonna, it doesn't matter what you've done

05:18:37.400 | for them, they won't give you anything."

05:18:39.260 | And so he's, I mean, I'm sorry, it's Secret Service,

05:18:41.360 | or anybody, he has clearly lied to the Secret Service

05:18:44.960 | at this point.

05:18:45.780 | If she goes and says, "This is what he gave me."

05:18:48.480 | So he's like, I was like, "Oh, wow."

05:18:51.120 | And he's like, "And I gave my,

05:18:51.960 | my brother's holding maybe 30,000 for me."

05:18:54.400 | And at that moment, I was like, "Wow.

05:19:00.840 | Like this poor guy."

05:19:03.080 | No, that's not what I thought at all.

05:19:04.360 | What I thought was,

05:19:05.200 | "Is that enough to get me a sentence reduction?"

05:19:07.900 | - You son of a bitch.

05:19:10.000 | (laughing)

05:19:11.680 | - And I went, and I sat there.

05:19:13.000 | And you know what I thought?

05:19:13.840 | I thought, I did, I thought, "No."

05:19:15.520 | I thought, "That's not enough.

05:19:16.680 | That's not enough, it's nothing.

05:19:17.960 | That's not even $200,000."

05:19:20.240 | And they didn't wanna give me a reduction.

05:19:21.800 | My prosecutor was pissed that I got seven years off.

05:19:25.900 | She wanted me to get 30 months.

05:19:27.880 | She's not gonna give me anything.

05:19:29.160 | It's up to her, she's not gonna do it.

05:19:31.280 | So I go, I lay down, I go to bed.

05:19:35.200 | Like a month later, I'm on the phone with my lawyer,

05:19:38.640 | 'cause I had written, remember I wrote,

05:19:40.600 | I had a manuscript for my book.

05:19:43.480 | And I wanted to put some of the stuff

05:19:44.960 | that was said in my sentencing in the book.

05:19:49.120 | So I was trying to get my lawyer to mail me my transcripts.

05:19:52.800 | And she hadn't done it.

05:19:53.640 | So I called her and I said, "Listen,

05:19:55.040 | you said you were gonna," she's like,

05:19:56.100 | "Oh God, man, I'm so sorry, I'm so busy.

05:19:57.880 | I'll do it, I'll do it."

05:19:59.240 | And then she went, this is Esther.

05:20:01.080 | She goes, "So what else is going on in there?"

05:20:03.780 | And this, she never wanted to talk to me.

05:20:05.200 | Like she didn't, you know, when they were paying her,

05:20:07.480 | she didn't wanna talk to me.

05:20:08.680 | And I was like, "What do you mean?"

05:20:10.480 | "Nothing, I just need my transcripts."

05:20:12.360 | And she's like, "Nothing's happening?

05:20:14.020 | There's nothing you wanna talk about?"

05:20:14.860 | And I was like, and I went, "You know what?

05:20:19.700 | You know what?

05:20:20.540 | There's something weird happened there.

05:20:22.780 | Listen to this."

05:20:24.620 | And I told her about Ron Wilson.

05:20:26.780 | And she goes, "Hold on."

05:20:27.620 | And she looks him up on the computer.

05:20:29.540 | She goes, "Oh, wow, this is a bad guy.

05:20:31.460 | This is a bad guy.

05:20:32.560 | And he told you, then you know where it is?"

05:20:36.100 | "Absolutely, and I can tell you exactly."

05:20:38.660 | And she goes, "Okay, okay, okay."

05:20:40.140 | She goes, "Let me look into this."

05:20:41.400 | I go, "Okay."

05:20:42.240 | So a week later, a CO comes to me and goes, "Hey, Cox."

05:20:45.660 | And I go, "What's up?"

05:20:46.500 | He goes, "Listen, at the next move,"

05:20:47.620 | 'cause you know they have controlled moves.

05:20:49.500 | "All the doors are locked,

05:20:50.900 | and they open them up for 10 minutes

05:20:52.100 | so you can run to the chow hall,

05:20:55.140 | or you can run to the, you can't run though,

05:20:57.260 | no running on the compound, but you can walk fast."

05:20:59.780 | Yes, to the rec yard, or the library, whatever.

05:21:03.940 | He says, "At the next move, go to SIS," you know?

05:21:07.900 | So I go to SIS on the next move.

05:21:09.660 | But I was used to going there, by the way,

05:21:11.740 | because I was constantly ordering

05:21:13.500 | Freedom of Information Acts, and they would,

05:21:15.900 | so I'd order, you're an inmate,

05:21:17.660 | and I'd order, I'm writing a story for you,

05:21:19.180 | and I'd order it, and they'd send it to me,

05:21:20.900 | and then they would catch it, and they'd be like,

05:21:22.060 | "Why are you getting Lex's information?"

05:21:26.660 | So they'd call me down there, and I'd go,

05:21:27.700 | "No, I ordered it for him, and I'm writing a story."

05:21:30.660 | And I'd already been in Rolling Stone,

05:21:32.020 | and they'd be like, "What's the story?"

05:21:33.380 | And I'd tell them the story,

05:21:34.220 | "Hey, that's a pretty good story, here."

05:21:35.980 | And so I go down there, but this is different.

05:21:38.980 | This, the guy answers the door,

05:21:40.140 | and this guy, they call him Bulldog.

05:21:41.480 | He was a real asshole.

05:21:42.820 | He was a lieutenant at SIS, and he's like,

05:21:45.200 | "Come here, get in here, cock, sit down."

05:21:47.500 | And he dials the phone, and he goes,

05:21:48.640 | "Here, you gotta talk to this guy."

05:21:49.620 | And I'm like, "What?"

05:21:50.460 | And I pick up the phone, I'm like, "Hello?"

05:21:52.100 | And the guy goes, "Hey, this is Agent Griffin

05:21:54.020 | "with the Secret Service.

05:21:55.200 | "I understand you know where Ron Wilson

05:21:56.800 | "has hidden Ponzi scheme money."

05:21:59.660 | I go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

05:22:00.500 | "I want something in writing.

05:22:02.220 | "I want," you know, so I start doing that,

05:22:04.580 | and they go, "Okay."

05:22:05.420 | And I get his email address,

05:22:07.140 | and we start emailing each other back and forth.

05:22:09.620 | And he ends up getting a letter

05:22:11.740 | from the U.S. attorney in South Carolina

05:22:16.740 | that says they will consider substantial assistance

05:22:20.760 | if they make arrests or recover

05:22:24.240 | a substantial amount of money.

05:22:26.660 | That's the best I'm gonna get, is consider.

05:22:29.040 | So I start talking to this guy,

05:22:31.280 | and he starts asking me questions about Ron Wilson.

05:22:34.040 | Like, "Hey, ask him this, ask him this."

05:22:36.520 | So I'm like, "Bro, I gotta kinda work that

05:22:37.880 | "into a conversation.

05:22:38.720 | "That's an odd thing to ask."

05:22:40.080 | So this goes on for six months.

05:22:42.300 | So I'm asking questions, and I'm typing up little reports,

05:22:45.180 | and I'm a prison snitch now.

05:22:47.940 | So I'm not just, like, cooperating.

05:22:49.920 | I'm now, I'm a prison snitch.

05:22:51.420 | So I've moved down.

05:22:54.300 | I've moved down, actually,

05:22:55.660 | from being just a cooperating witness or--

05:22:58.300 | - Because you're in prison?

05:22:59.540 | - Yes. - Is that what makes

05:23:00.380 | you a prison snitch? - Prison snitch.

05:23:01.380 | You can't even really say,

05:23:02.740 | no, you could say prison rat.

05:23:05.980 | You could say prison rat.

05:23:06.820 | I think prison snitch,

05:23:08.740 | I think that's probably the closer to the term

05:23:11.200 | that most guys would use.

05:23:12.360 | - What's the difference between a snitch and a rat in prison?

05:23:14.400 | - I'm not sure.

05:23:15.720 | It rolls off the tongue better.

05:23:17.120 | Prison rat doesn't sound as good as prison snitch.

05:23:19.760 | I don't know.

05:23:21.040 | I don't spend a lot of time thinking about this.

05:23:22.960 | So what happens is I'm asking Wilson questions periodically,

05:23:27.960 | and at some point, they contact me,

05:23:33.520 | and they say, "Listen, Wilson's about to get some bad news."

05:23:38.680 | And I go, "Okay."

05:23:39.640 | And they go, he's like,

05:23:43.180 | "I don't wanna tell you what it is.

05:23:45.080 | "Let us know what happens."

05:23:46.400 | It's like two days go by,

05:23:47.460 | and one day, Wilson comes up to me one day,

05:23:50.360 | and says, "Cox, Cox."

05:23:52.880 | And I'm like, "Oh, shit."

05:23:54.280 | I'm like, "Hey, what's up?"

05:23:55.960 | And he's like, "Oh, you're not gonna believe this.

05:23:57.600 | "I got indicted."

05:23:59.280 | I was like, "What?

05:24:00.700 | "What happened?"

05:24:01.960 | (whistles)

05:24:03.000 | "No, yeah, my wife, they questioned my wife and my brother,

05:24:09.000 | "and my wife walked in.

05:24:11.220 | "First, she said, 'I don't have nothing.

05:24:12.660 | "'I don't know what you're talking about.'

05:24:14.200 | "The next day, the brother walks in

05:24:15.580 | "and gives them $150,000 in cash."

05:24:20.580 | And so the next day, the wife comes back

05:24:25.820 | and gives him $250,000 in cash

05:24:28.280 | and a bunch of silver, like gold bullion and silver,

05:24:33.280 | 'cause his Ponzi scheme was based off of silver.

05:24:38.460 | He was gonna invest in silver for you.

05:24:40.680 | So half a million dollars.

05:24:43.760 | They turn over half a million.

05:24:44.600 | I'm like, "Half a million dollars?

05:24:45.620 | "I thought she was like 100,000 or something."

05:24:47.500 | And he was like, "I know.

05:24:48.800 | "I didn't know I could trust you."

05:24:49.980 | I'm like, "Ron, what are you doing?

05:24:53.400 | "I thought we were..."

05:24:54.820 | So I'll tell you something.

05:24:58.020 | Just for the icing on the cake, by the way.

05:25:00.300 | The icing on the cake.

05:25:01.140 | Let me explain one more thing.

05:25:05.180 | So if somebody cooperates with the federal government,

05:25:08.600 | let's say I get arrested and they go,

05:25:11.240 | "You wanna help yourself?"

05:25:12.180 | And you go, "Yeah, okay.

05:25:13.660 | "Look, Jimmy, he lives next to me

05:25:16.800 | "and he's running a meth house, a meth lab, whatever."

05:25:19.340 | And they go and they raid Jimmy and he gets arrested.

05:25:22.300 | You're gonna get something off of that.

05:25:23.740 | Not a lot, but you're gonna get something.

05:25:25.840 | And they could just say, "We were gonna bust him anyway.

05:25:31.160 | "We were already onto him."

05:25:33.220 | Now the next level would be you wear a wire.

05:25:36.380 | So I wore a wire and I was in danger.

05:25:41.220 | Now keep in mind, I'm asking this guy questions

05:25:43.100 | inside federal prison.

05:25:44.520 | I'm in danger.

05:25:46.020 | So whatever, that's like the next level.

05:25:48.820 | You're taking an active participation in the investigation.

05:25:53.820 | And the third level would be you actually get on the stand

05:25:58.840 | and you cooperate and you testify.

05:26:02.820 | Now there's no better cooperation than that.

05:26:05.020 | So when Wilson says to me,

05:26:09.660 | "They're gonna move me back to South Carolina.

05:26:13.600 | "They've indicted me.

05:26:15.060 | "They've charged me.

05:26:16.540 | "What do you think I should do?"

05:26:17.500 | And I go, "I think you should go to trial."

05:26:19.580 | Because I know they'll have to call me as a witness.

05:26:24.260 | Just to let you know, 'cause I don't want you to,

05:26:28.100 | I don't wanna walk out of here and have you feeling like,

05:26:31.660 | "Hey, there's some good to this guy."

05:26:35.500 | So I'm ready to cut Wilson like a fish.

05:26:40.140 | - But you are putting yourself in danger

05:26:41.540 | if you get on the stand, right?

05:26:42.660 | - I'm already in danger.

05:26:43.640 | If people there heard what I was doing,

05:26:45.420 | I probably would have been in--

05:26:46.580 | - Does that increase the chance of them hearing or no?

05:26:49.780 | - It does, but it also increases my ability

05:26:52.940 | to get more off my sentence.

05:26:55.460 | So what happens is, a couple days later,

05:26:58.180 | he's on what's called the packout, right?

05:26:59.860 | They're gonna move him.

05:27:01.300 | Maybe a week later.

05:27:02.140 | So they come and get him, they move him.

05:27:04.100 | He gets back there to South Carolina and he pleads guilty.

05:27:08.540 | They sentence him, he gets six months added on.

05:27:11.900 | So he's now from 19 1/2 to 20 years.

05:27:14.220 | And by the way, when COVID hit, he was released.

05:27:20.060 | So he only ended up doing six years on a 20-year sentence

05:27:23.860 | because he was older.

05:27:26.460 | By that point, he's 66, 67 years old.

05:27:30.420 | Anybody older than 55 was endangered,

05:27:32.500 | especially in the prison.

05:27:33.820 | So they had a COVID thing where they were releasing

05:27:36.340 | these guys and sending them home on ankle monitors.

05:27:38.020 | Like he's an old man, he's not gonna hurt.

05:27:41.020 | He's not a danger.

05:27:42.400 | So they sent him home.

05:27:44.340 | So he ended up doing, so he didn't even serve

05:27:46.180 | the six months, he didn't even serve the original sentence.

05:27:48.840 | Whatever, not that I care.

05:27:50.620 | So I'm just saying, if it makes you feel like poor Ron,

05:27:53.580 | it's okay.

05:27:54.420 | So his wife got like a hundred years,

05:27:58.580 | she got like a hundred hours of community service

05:28:01.100 | or something, or 60 hours.

05:28:02.940 | And I think his brother got six months papers.

05:28:05.220 | They got charged with obstruction of justice.

05:28:08.080 | And they didn't, neither one of them,

05:28:09.780 | it's like six months probation and community service,

05:28:14.020 | nothing.

05:28:15.380 | So when I turn around, I'm waiting for my reduction.

05:28:19.700 | Waiting, waiting.

05:28:21.980 | After about 90 days, after this guy gets sentenced,

05:28:24.620 | maybe six months, I send a letter.

05:28:26.140 | Hey, what's going on to the prosecuting,

05:28:28.460 | to my prosecutor, the prosecutor of both districts,

05:28:32.220 | no response.

05:28:33.700 | Then I go to Frank, I explained to Frank,

05:28:35.340 | and Frank has known what's going on the whole time.

05:28:37.940 | And Frank goes, okay, I'm gonna file a 2255.

05:28:40.460 | So we file a 2255.

05:28:42.880 | Government comes back and the first thing they say is,

05:28:45.780 | your honor, we don't know about any cooperation.

05:28:49.020 | We've never heard about any cooperation.

05:28:51.660 | So of course, then we submit the letter that we have.

05:28:55.740 | The judge comes back and the judge ends up saying,

05:28:59.180 | it's a little complicated, but he ends up saying,

05:29:01.380 | look, I don't have jurisdiction to hear this

05:29:04.540 | because you may be time barred.

05:29:09.180 | But I'm gonna let the appeals court hear it.

05:29:15.260 | Now, typically you have to get what's called

05:29:19.060 | like a right of certification to appeal.

05:29:21.880 | You have to make sure that you actually have a case.

05:29:24.060 | He says, I'm waiving the cert

05:29:25.620 | and I'm waiving the $500 fee to file with them.

05:29:31.180 | He said, and he basically expedites it for me,

05:29:34.800 | which is a subtle way of telling the prosecutor,

05:29:38.540 | I think he's got something and I'm sending it up there.

05:29:41.940 | And the way he writes his motion,

05:29:43.540 | it's basically saying I don't have the jurisdiction

05:29:46.740 | to hear it, to do anything, but they do.

05:29:49.920 | They need to do it.

05:29:50.900 | And I'm paving the way.

05:29:52.640 | You don't have to pay any money

05:29:53.740 | and you don't need that cert.

05:29:55.660 | So the prosecution immediately comes back.

05:29:58.260 | They file a one level reduction

05:30:01.020 | and we immediately, Frank files something saying,

05:30:06.260 | hey, stop, we don't want the reduction.

05:30:09.540 | We don't want the one level.

05:30:10.360 | We wanna come back to court.

05:30:11.980 | Please don't rule on it.

05:30:14.000 | So the judge says, okay, I'm freezing everything.

05:30:16.980 | I'm putting a stay on everything.

05:30:18.820 | I'm gonna give this guy a lawyer

05:30:22.660 | to try and figure out what you're gonna do.

05:30:25.260 | They fly down a lawyer, Leanne Weber.

05:30:30.260 | So she comes in and she comes and sees me.

05:30:34.340 | And she says, listen, I see that you wanna go back

05:30:38.220 | and fight this and this, but honestly,

05:30:40.420 | I don't think you're gonna get anything

05:30:41.580 | more than one level.

05:30:43.580 | I talked to the prosecution.

05:30:45.620 | They said they'll give you what she said.

05:30:48.260 | I can work on trying to get you two levels,

05:30:49.900 | but you don't have much of a prayer.

05:30:51.620 | You're gonna get crushed.

05:30:53.220 | And I said, well, then why are you here?

05:30:57.180 | If they can crush me so easy, why don't they do it?

05:31:00.060 | Why would they pay you?

05:31:01.460 | They pay them like 12 grand or something

05:31:03.420 | just to fly down and all your expenses to negotiate for me.

05:31:08.300 | Why not crush me?

05:31:09.180 | And she's like, I don't know.

05:31:12.260 | I said, well, Frank said four levels.

05:31:14.540 | And she's like, who's Frank?

05:31:15.440 | I go, Frank's the guy that wrote all this.

05:31:16.540 | And she's like, oh, is he an attorney?

05:31:18.220 | And I go, is he in here?

05:31:19.320 | I'm like, yeah, he's in here.

05:31:20.660 | She's like, why is he in here?

05:31:21.660 | And I tell her, he was taking over the world.

05:31:24.820 | And she says, that's the strangest thing

05:31:29.020 | I've ever heard in my entire life.

05:31:31.180 | And I said, I understand.

05:31:32.540 | But Frank said, and she's like,

05:31:33.740 | you're listening to an incompetent.

05:31:35.940 | You know, I'm like, absolutely.

05:31:38.340 | And Frank said, we want four levels.

05:31:42.780 | He said for me to tell you, we want four levels.

05:31:45.420 | She goes, okay.

05:31:46.260 | She leaves.

05:31:47.820 | She goes to the U.S. attorney, we argue two levels.

05:31:50.920 | They come back and say two levels.

05:31:52.180 | No, we go back and forth.

05:31:53.560 | We start filing motions saying we want to go back.

05:31:56.220 | We want a hearing.

05:31:57.340 | We want to bring back all the FBI agents,

05:31:59.300 | the Secret Service agents.

05:32:00.540 | And she's like, what do you want to turn this

05:32:01.660 | into a circus?

05:32:02.500 | Exactly what I want to do.

05:32:03.320 | I'm gonna turn it into the biggest circus

05:32:04.540 | 'cause I've already got one level.

05:32:06.220 | They come back one day.

05:32:08.240 | She says, listen, three levels

05:32:10.920 | is the best you're gonna get.

05:32:12.420 | She said, so I guess you'll be moved back here.

05:32:16.280 | We'll go to the hearing.

05:32:17.120 | She said, no, no, no, I'll take three levels.

05:32:19.260 | And she goes, what are you talking?

05:32:20.100 | She said, you said four levels.

05:32:21.380 | You said Frank wouldn't let you take anything less than four.

05:32:23.300 | I said, no, Frank said to tell you four.

05:32:26.180 | I was happy with three.

05:32:27.260 | I wanted you to argue for four.

05:32:28.580 | I'm good with three.

05:32:29.780 | I'm out of here in like a year.

05:32:31.940 | So, and I don't wanna be moved back.

05:32:34.580 | I don't wanna have to get on that bus.

05:32:35.660 | Do you know what it's like to be moved?

05:32:37.100 | It's horrible.

05:32:37.940 | So I said, I just want the three levels.

05:32:39.700 | So then we argue about the wording

05:32:41.580 | for about two, three months, and then they file it.

05:32:43.740 | And then I get five years knocked off my sentence

05:32:45.900 | because three levels at the level I was at now

05:32:48.480 | isn't seven years.

05:32:49.320 | Every level, you get a little less time.

05:32:51.160 | So I get five years off.

05:32:52.400 | So now I've got 12 years knocked off my sentence.

05:32:55.320 | At this point, I may have a year and a half to go.

05:33:00.320 | And you know, that's doable.

05:33:03.540 | So I was super, super happy.

05:33:08.420 | And I'm gonna tell you something.

05:33:15.600 | And I'm sorry, bro.

05:33:16.700 | But every time I think about it,

05:33:20.120 | and I just feel like I have to say it.

05:33:23.180 | Like, Frank, I'm gonna, insane.

05:33:29.880 | But I can, like, I didn't have a fucking prayer

05:33:36.100 | without that guy.

05:33:37.880 | And as crazy as he is, and much of a pain in the ass

05:33:40.960 | as he was, like, I could never repay him, bro.

05:33:45.960 | Like, I'm not, I shouldn't be here.

05:33:50.640 | I'm supposed to be in prison right now.

05:33:53.400 | My out date was 30, was 2030 without that guy.

05:33:58.400 | - Where is he now?

05:34:01.360 | - He got himself out.

05:34:03.080 | He didn't do all that time.

05:34:04.120 | He got himself out.

05:34:05.120 | I don't even know how he did it.

05:34:06.080 | They even threw him back in prison again for six months.

05:34:08.760 | And he got himself out again.

05:34:10.800 | He's insane, he's incredible.

05:34:12.440 | He's insane, but he's incredible.

05:34:13.960 | - Is he really that insane?

05:34:15.000 | - He's in Orlando.

05:34:16.180 | - I mean, he seems like a good lawyer and a good man.

05:34:21.440 | - He's great, he's great.

05:34:26.280 | I mean, there's no doubt in my mind

05:34:28.520 | I would be in prison right now if it wasn't for him.

05:34:31.000 | - And he's done this for others?

05:34:32.320 | - Walk people right out, 10 years off, five years off,

05:34:34.680 | nine years off, 10 years.

05:34:35.880 | I mean, I didn't pay, and I didn't pay for one thing.

05:34:40.440 | I didn't pay for my stamps.

05:34:42.920 | He paid for everything.

05:34:44.080 | - Sounds like the other lawyers don't really believe

05:34:48.320 | it's possible, and he does.

05:34:49.920 | It's interesting.

05:34:50.880 | - Well, I think he was willing to,

05:34:53.440 | he's willing to badger them into doing

05:34:56.520 | what they should have done to begin with.

05:35:00.040 | I actually wrote a book about it, which he loved.

05:35:02.960 | - About him?

05:35:03.800 | - About him and his story.

05:35:05.400 | It's so over the top, what happened with him.

05:35:09.600 | I mean, literally tried to take over the Congo.

05:35:11.940 | I mean, there's a documentary about it.

05:35:14.960 | It's called Nine Days in the Congo.

05:35:16.920 | It's an insane story.

05:35:18.560 | That's one of those stories that's just like,

05:35:20.040 | how is this not a movie?

05:35:21.280 | - It's not a movie yet?

05:35:22.120 | - No, I don't, I've pitched it several times,

05:35:25.140 | and it would be great.

05:35:29.080 | So I wrote a synopsis, and I turned that into a book.

05:35:32.080 | - What's the name of the book?

05:35:33.080 | - Oh, It's Insanity.

05:35:34.420 | - It's Insanity.

05:35:35.260 | - Yeah, but about it, like a year and a half later,

05:35:37.960 | like I ended up getting out of prison,

05:35:39.360 | and I went to the halfway house.

05:35:40.760 | - What'd that feel like, freedom?

05:35:43.040 | - I was, oh, this is bad, bro, this is bad.

05:35:48.040 | I remember when I was leaving the prison.

05:35:53.780 | So I met some great guys in prison,

05:35:57.000 | which is a weird thing to say,

05:35:59.160 | but I've met better, I met better people in prison

05:36:04.160 | than I'd ever met outside prison at that low.

05:36:08.900 | I mean, because it was the first time

05:36:12.420 | I actually had friends, you know?

05:36:15.420 | Like I really had someone that wanted to hang out with me,

05:36:18.580 | just like, I didn't have anything to offer them.

05:36:21.700 | I can't make you any money, I can't do anything for you.

05:36:24.820 | We just hang out because we like to laugh,

05:36:26.940 | or we have things in common,

05:36:28.220 | or we're fascinated by each other,

05:36:29.740 | or we just have good time and fun.

05:36:32.380 | So when I was leaving, I remember my mom showed up,

05:36:36.060 | and my brother showed up, and they picked me up,

05:36:38.840 | and we were driving off.

05:36:40.340 | I remember looking back at the prison,

05:36:44.140 | and my brother said, "Paul, I'll bet you're glad

05:36:46.860 | "to see that, to leave that behind you."

05:36:50.980 | And I started crying.

05:36:53.300 | It's like nobody talked, I was so uncomfortable.

05:36:56.300 | It was just, I started crying,

05:36:57.860 | and it wasn't because I was like, oh, it's over.

05:37:02.420 | It was because, it was like survivor's guilt, you know?

05:37:05.180 | Like, I was leaving all of my friends,

05:37:08.660 | and I felt so bad that I was leaving them.

05:37:12.280 | But I went to the halfway house, and I had,

05:37:20.380 | I had four, I had, so when I was getting out,

05:37:27.340 | I remember joking that I had exhausted my True Links account,

05:37:34.220 | my inmate account.

05:37:36.420 | I'd exhausted it.

05:37:37.260 | I had nothing, I had like 18 cents.

05:37:39.120 | I couldn't even figure out how to spend it.

05:37:40.900 | And they give you a debit card when you leave.

05:37:43.700 | And I said, like, and they charge you

05:37:46.780 | every time you use the card.

05:37:49.220 | Like, I don't even have enough to spend the 18 cents,

05:37:51.660 | 'cause the charge is like $3.

05:37:53.580 | So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:37:55.060 | I was like, I wonder if they'll still give me my debit card.

05:37:56.900 | And I'm laughing.

05:37:57.860 | Everybody's like, what are you gonna eat?

05:37:58.980 | What are you, this, what are that?

05:38:00.340 | And my one buddy looked at me, and he was like,

05:38:04.760 | you can't go to the halfway house with nothing, bro.

05:38:07.980 | And I was like, no, it's cool.

05:38:09.500 | I said, no, it's cool.

05:38:10.420 | You know, I said, no, it's cool.

05:38:11.240 | I said, I wanna start at the bottom.

05:38:13.860 | I've got that coming.

05:38:15.380 | I got working at McDonald's coming,

05:38:18.100 | so I'm gonna work at McDonald's.

05:38:19.940 | I don't give a fuck.

05:38:21.660 | And he was like, well, I think you're gonna need to buy

05:38:25.700 | clothes, I think, I said, no, it's, I said,

05:38:27.780 | it's at the, it's at the Goodwill.

05:38:31.600 | They'll give you a bunch of, they give you a bunch of crap

05:38:33.420 | if you don't have anything, if you're indigent.

05:38:35.300 | And I said, I'm indigent.

05:38:36.860 | And a couple days before I'm leaving,

05:38:41.460 | $400 ends up on my account.

05:38:43.380 | And I was like, what the fuck?

05:38:46.380 | And it was from a buddy of mine.

05:38:49.540 | And I go to him, my buddy, Tommy, and I was like,

05:38:53.700 | Tommy, did you put $400 on my account?

05:38:57.060 | And he said, I can't let you go for it with nothing, bro.

05:39:00.620 | So, I get to the halfway house and I go to Walmart

05:39:05.620 | and I buy $300 worth of clothes at Walmart.

05:39:09.860 | I've never been in a Walmart.

05:39:12.060 | I go to a Supermarket, it's huge.

05:39:13.980 | And I go there and I buy a bunch of clothes

05:39:16.060 | and I buy about 300 bucks worth of clothes.

05:39:18.020 | And I still have some of the blue jeans.

05:39:19.540 | To this day, I still wear some of the blue jeans.

05:39:22.340 | And I stayed in the halfway house

05:39:26.200 | and I called a buddy of mine named Trion, Trion Calta.

05:39:31.200 | And he owns a gym and I grew up with him.

05:39:35.660 | His whole family, they owned a bunch of gyms.

05:39:37.860 | And I called him and I said,

05:39:40.180 | hey man, I'm in the halfway house.

05:39:41.580 | And he was like, hey, what's going on?

05:39:44.100 | He said, can I do anything for you?

05:39:45.740 | And I was like, I mean, I need a job.

05:39:48.660 | I didn't think he was gonna give me a job.

05:39:49.820 | He was, bro, you're hired, I'll give you a job.

05:39:52.140 | He's like, minimum wage.

05:39:54.260 | I said, that's fine, if I can stay out of here,

05:39:56.540 | I either work like 80 hours a week.

05:39:58.500 | I was like, if I can just stay out of here 80 hours

05:40:00.100 | and you pay me minimum wage, he goes, oh hell yeah, perfect.

05:40:03.540 | So I'm at the gym and I got free reign.

05:40:06.380 | So I'm playing on my computer, goofing off all day.

05:40:09.220 | And my buddy Pete, who's still locked up,

05:40:11.340 | he's texting me and calling me and he's like,

05:40:13.340 | not texting me, he's emailing me

05:40:15.860 | through the CoreLink system.

05:40:16.940 | And he calls me periodically, he's like,

05:40:20.060 | have you started a website?

05:40:21.420 | 'Cause one of the things I was gonna do when I got out

05:40:23.100 | was I was gonna start a website

05:40:24.340 | with all these stories that I'd written.

05:40:26.380 | And I was like, no, Pete, I can't, I don't have a computer.

05:40:30.740 | He's like, well, how much is a computer?

05:40:32.740 | I was like, I don't know, they're like 300 bucks.

05:40:35.580 | I was like, I said, I could probably get a used Apple,

05:40:38.220 | like MacBook, like a five-year-old MacBook or something,

05:40:40.820 | I don't know, for like $350, whatever.

05:40:44.420 | And I said, but he was like,

05:40:45.700 | okay, so that's all you need, 300 bucks.

05:40:46.980 | I go, no, no, no, no, I said, it's not 300 bucks, bro.

05:40:48.860 | It's 300 bucks, plus it's getting a WordPress website,

05:40:52.700 | which I said costs money,

05:40:53.980 | plus it's hiring somebody to help me figure it out

05:40:56.380 | because I'm inept, I don't know how anything works.

05:41:01.380 | So he, okay, and I said, plus I need this,

05:41:05.900 | plus I need that, I need a bunch of stuff.

05:41:08.000 | I need $600 for this, I need 300 for this,

05:41:12.260 | I need 500 for this, I need $1,000 for this.

05:41:16.180 | And he goes, okay, he said, I'll get you,

05:41:18.180 | okay, I got it.

05:41:19.020 | So he reads off a list, he goes, I gotcha.

05:41:21.220 | But Pete doesn't have any money.

05:41:23.060 | And I go, how are you gonna give me any money?

05:41:24.180 | He goes, every day I walk across the compound,

05:41:29.180 | some people stop me and say, how's Cox doing?

05:41:33.220 | And I say, oh, he's okay.

05:41:34.780 | And they say, does he need anything?

05:41:37.380 | And I say, no, no, he's good.

05:41:39.460 | He said, I'm gonna start telling these fuckers,

05:41:41.180 | yeah, yeah, he needs something.

05:41:42.900 | You wanna do something for him?

05:41:44.100 | Here's what he needs.

05:41:47.500 | I ended up getting two laptops sent to me.

05:41:52.120 | I got the computer program, Final Cut Pro.

05:41:57.940 | I had guys in prison cutting me checks

05:42:03.460 | so that I could build a website

05:42:05.460 | and put all these stories on the website.

05:42:08.300 | So I start putting the website,

05:42:09.140 | and I don't know what I'm doing, man.

05:42:10.620 | I mean, I put them on the website,

05:42:12.860 | slowly, it takes forever, putting pictures up,

05:42:16.980 | I'm trying to figure out how Photoshop works,

05:42:21.540 | how all this stuff.

05:42:23.080 | The whole time I wanted to start,

05:42:26.220 | 'cause the last one, I was just getting out of prison,

05:42:28.060 | everybody kept telling me like,

05:42:29.020 | bro, you gotta start a podcast,

05:42:30.220 | you gotta start a true crime podcast.

05:42:32.460 | And I don't know what a podcast is.

05:42:34.300 | The term podcast came into existence in 2009

05:42:37.540 | when I'd been locked up three years.

05:42:39.620 | I'd never been on YouTube.

05:42:41.620 | So by the time I get out, the last year or two,

05:42:46.060 | guys are coming up to me, giving me magazines,

05:42:47.900 | like this is what a pod, you need to read.

05:42:49.740 | Look, true crime's huge.

05:42:51.780 | And you have to think,

05:42:52.620 | guys are asking me every couple of days,

05:42:54.380 | Cox, you got any stories?

05:42:56.180 | And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:42:57.260 | Did you read Cash and Coke?

05:42:59.100 | And they're like, is that the one where the guys

05:43:02.220 | are robbing the drug dealer?

05:43:03.420 | Yeah, oh no, I read that one.

05:43:05.180 | Did you read this one?

05:43:06.020 | No, no, I haven't read that, that's the one with the guy.

05:43:07.420 | And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:43:08.620 | So I'm giving these little stories,

05:43:10.540 | and then they'd come back and give them to me.

05:43:12.780 | You don't have anything in there, right?

05:43:14.880 | So this is, guys that would never read in their life

05:43:17.940 | are reading.

05:43:19.180 | And I'm writing about the guy in B2, the guy in C1.

05:43:24.180 | So I put up the whole thing.

05:43:28.340 | And they're, well, anyway, they're all telling me,

05:43:29.900 | do a true crime podcast, true crime podcast.

05:43:31.700 | I don't really know what that is.

05:43:32.640 | But by now, I'm starting to listen to them on YouTube,

05:43:35.260 | you know, serial and cold case files,

05:43:38.780 | you know, that kind of stuff.

05:43:40.540 | And I think that's what I wanna do.

05:43:41.920 | Well, my buddy Treon says there's a guy named Danny Jones

05:43:45.280 | that runs a podcast called Concrete,

05:43:48.300 | and it's in St. Petersburg.

05:43:50.040 | And he lives a couple miles from me.

05:43:51.980 | I see him all the time.

05:43:53.920 | And I went, okay.

05:43:55.960 | And he said, you should email him.

05:43:57.800 | He's got a guy on there all the time that does real estate.

05:44:00.080 | And I go, I just got out of prison for bank fraud

05:44:02.960 | related to real estate.

05:44:03.960 | He doesn't wanna interview me.

05:44:05.920 | He goes, well, you could, maybe he does.

05:44:07.960 | Maybe you could ask him about starting a podcast.

05:44:10.420 | And I go, okay.

05:44:12.780 | So I sent him an email.

05:44:14.820 | I remember Danny called me and he said,

05:44:17.140 | hey, is this Matt Costa?

05:44:17.980 | I was like, yeah, this is Matt.

05:44:19.220 | He's like, I got your email.

05:44:20.060 | This is Danny Jones.

05:44:20.900 | And I was like, okay.

05:44:21.860 | And he says, yeah, I got your email, bro.

05:44:26.060 | He was like, that's a good fucking email.

05:44:27.780 | And I was like, what?

05:44:29.500 | He goes, I get a lot of emails, bro.

05:44:31.140 | He said, that's a good one.

05:44:33.140 | That was really good.

05:44:33.980 | Like, I mean, that was well-written.

05:44:35.780 | He's like, I immediately knew I had to talk to you.

05:44:38.780 | And I said, oh, okay.

05:44:39.980 | I said, 'cause I started off with,

05:44:42.360 | I think I started off with, hey, my name's Matt Cox

05:44:44.360 | and I'm a con man.

05:44:45.300 | It was recently released from federal prison.

05:44:48.300 | And so he was like, oh yeah, I mean, who says that?

05:44:50.960 | So anyway, he said, well, what's going on?

05:44:54.160 | I said, well, and I tell him what's going on.

05:44:55.720 | I wanna start a podcast, blah, blah, blah.

05:44:57.160 | And Danny, he listens to me for 30 minutes to an hour

05:45:00.480 | and I've heard this and this.

05:45:01.600 | And he's like, yeah, right.

05:45:03.280 | YouTube's not really like that.

05:45:04.720 | And that's not really how we do it.

05:45:06.120 | And I don't know that you're gonna have to get

05:45:08.120 | a production company and blah, blah, blah.

05:45:09.760 | He goes, but you know what?

05:45:11.680 | What you really need to do is to see if people

05:45:13.400 | are even interested in you or your story

05:45:15.560 | or you're able to talk.

05:45:16.800 | You should come on my show.

05:45:19.720 | Shameless, trying to get some content.

05:45:22.120 | - Well, I mean, so as I told you offline,

05:45:24.560 | Danny and Concrete Podcast is really good.

05:45:26.720 | So people should definitely listen to it.

05:45:28.280 | - Yeah.

05:45:29.120 | - Yeah, I mean, it turns out people do like listening to you.

05:45:32.060 | - Turns out.

05:45:32.900 | - I mean, you're good at telling stories.

05:45:35.520 | - Well, anyway, by the time I got it,

05:45:37.920 | I couldn't do Danny's podcast.

05:45:38.760 | I was like, I can't do it, bro.

05:45:39.760 | I'm in the halfway house.

05:45:40.600 | So maybe I get out of the halfway house

05:45:43.680 | and a couple of months go by,

05:45:44.960 | just maybe two months, three months go by.

05:45:47.500 | And one day I get a phone call from Danny.

05:45:49.240 | He's like, bro, you're out of the halfway house, right?

05:45:50.680 | And I was like, 'cause I told him I got out in July.

05:45:52.280 | It was like October, November.

05:45:53.840 | I'm like, right?

05:45:54.920 | He's like, listen, I had a guest fall through.

05:45:57.200 | I got nobody.

05:45:59.000 | I need you to come on.

05:45:59.960 | I answered all your questions.

05:46:02.200 | You know, I'd call them five, six times, you know.

05:46:05.480 | I asked, you said, and I was like, ah.

05:46:08.940 | I was like, fuck it, I'll do it.

05:46:11.540 | That video got like a two million views.

05:46:14.020 | Then I did Patrick Bet David Flew Me Out.

05:46:16.860 | Then I did Soft White Underbelly.

05:46:19.460 | You know, then I did Vlad.

05:46:20.460 | Then I did all, like people started,

05:46:22.100 | and I'm sorry, and then, you know, it just blew up.

05:46:24.860 | And then people started asking me to come and,

05:46:27.100 | you know, talk for no reason, which was crazy.

05:46:30.420 | But you were saying, I'm sorry.

05:46:31.380 | - Is your dad still with us?

05:46:33.620 | - No, he died when I was in prison.

05:46:38.260 | He came to see me, yeah,

05:46:41.180 | he came to see me two or three times.

05:46:43.180 | - When is the first time he found out

05:46:46.460 | that you were doing fraud?

05:46:48.900 | - The first time I got in trouble.

05:46:50.820 | - When you got the probation?

05:46:51.660 | - Yeah, because I had, you know,

05:46:52.940 | I had to kind of explain that, you know,

05:46:57.940 | something's happening.

05:47:01.340 | I didn't want him to hear it from anybody else.

05:47:03.580 | - So you talked to him directly about it?

05:47:07.060 | - Super disappointed.

05:47:09.780 | - Did he ever tell you he loves you after that?

05:47:14.900 | - So after I got the 26 years,

05:47:17.300 | and the government decided they weren't going

05:47:20.260 | to indict anybody, and I really was like,

05:47:23.860 | wow, this is it, like, you're done.

05:47:25.540 | He came to see me, but just by himself.

05:47:28.380 | And I remember he, I remember when he came to see me,

05:47:33.460 | I, you know, he was by himself,

05:47:36.940 | like he never came by himself.

05:47:38.380 | So I remember thinking something happened to my mom.

05:47:42.560 | And as soon as I walked in, you know,

05:47:43.980 | he walked in, I go, where's mom?

05:47:46.140 | And he goes, oh, she's fine, she's fine.

05:47:47.980 | And he sat down with me, and he said,

05:47:49.780 | and he said, how are you doing?

05:47:53.460 | I was like, I'm good.

05:47:55.740 | And he was just like, you know, he was getting sick.

05:47:59.540 | He was getting older.

05:48:01.380 | So, you know, we talked for a little bit

05:48:03.380 | just about the situation.

05:48:05.740 | And I was like, yeah, and he's like,

05:48:06.780 | well, what are you gonna do?

05:48:07.620 | And I was like, you know, there's nothing I can do.

05:48:09.060 | Like everybody I've called, multiple attorneys,

05:48:11.340 | I've talked to people, there's nothing I can do.

05:48:14.140 | And he was like, you know, you're gonna figure it out.

05:48:18.060 | You know, he goes, he said, you're clever,

05:48:24.020 | and you're smart, and you're gonna,

05:48:28.380 | you're not gonna do all of that time.

05:48:32.260 | And I was like, I'm done, it's over.

05:48:36.900 | I'm gonna get out of here when I'm 60,

05:48:40.860 | if I behave myself, and if I don't, I'll be 64.

05:48:45.780 | And he was like, that's not gonna happen.

05:48:50.340 | And so he said,

05:48:58.660 | I think that was the first time he,

05:49:03.460 | you know, I knew he was proud of me

05:49:05.140 | when I was making money, but he never said it.

05:49:08.660 | You know, you got the look, like he was like impressed.

05:49:11.420 | But we were sitting there, and he said,

05:49:15.940 | I remember he said, 'cause it's the only time

05:49:18.180 | I can ever remember him saying he was proud of me.

05:49:21.200 | And I remember he said, you're gonna figure this out.

05:49:26.420 | He said, I'm not proud of where you ended up,

05:49:30.020 | but you've done amazing things.

05:49:34.660 | You know, he said, I wish you'd use your talents

05:49:36.700 | for something different, but you've done things

05:49:39.300 | that I could have never done.

05:49:41.540 | And you've led an amazing, adventurous life,

05:49:46.240 | and I'm proud of you.

05:49:47.380 | And that, you know, I wish he could see you now.

05:49:55.640 | My mom, I mean, my mom saw me.

05:49:59.180 | My mom's funny, 'cause my mom came to see me.

05:50:01.540 | My mom's a gangster.

05:50:03.520 | My mom came to see me every two weeks for 13 years.

05:50:10.460 | She missed about a month and a half

05:50:12.860 | when she had a stroke and ended up in a wheelchair.

05:50:17.540 | And then she came in the wheelchair,

05:50:19.500 | and she would make my brother bring her.

05:50:21.500 | My brother and sister would be like,

05:50:23.620 | mom, are you sure you wanna go?

05:50:25.020 | Like, you know, it's so hard to,

05:50:27.900 | it's such a long drive and you get so tired.

05:50:30.100 | Well, I'll sleep in the car.

05:50:31.500 | I know, but you know, then we have to wait

05:50:35.100 | in that waiting area forever, and it takes forever.

05:50:40.100 | Well, I'm in the wheelchair, so I'm fine.

05:50:43.900 | Well, I know, but it's such a pain

05:50:47.220 | to get in and out and in and out.

05:50:48.900 | And she was like, I'm going to see my son,

05:50:50.620 | and you're taking me.

05:50:54.260 | She, yeah, so I, so she, yeah, she was something else.

05:50:59.260 | And I would say, you know,

05:51:04.620 | like if I had to say,

05:51:08.120 | you know, I don't think about all the things I did

05:51:14.980 | to get out.

05:51:15.820 | Like, I know, you know, there's all these guys

05:51:17.020 | that are like, you know, oh, I wouldn't have done that,

05:51:19.740 | and I would have been a standup guy,

05:51:21.220 | and I'd have been, well, good for fucking you, bro.

05:51:24.340 | I wanted to get out.

05:51:25.860 | I wanted out.

05:51:27.180 | And the icing on the cake of me getting out,

05:51:32.020 | and I would have cut every motherfucker's head

05:51:37.500 | in that prison off.

05:51:39.140 | I was able to get out just in time

05:51:46.740 | to spend the last year and a half

05:51:52.260 | of my mother's life with her.

05:51:54.160 | I saw her two or three times a week,

05:51:58.740 | took her to dinner once a week,

05:52:00.340 | was able to go on walks with her in her wheelchair.

05:52:06.800 | I was sitting right next to her

05:52:08.500 | when she had her final stroke.

05:52:10.700 | I held her hand when she took her last breath.

05:52:21.900 | So, if I have to be called a snitch the rest of my life,

05:52:26.780 | I don't give a fuck.

05:52:28.440 | Like, I may not deserve more, but she deserved more.

05:52:33.840 | Do you regret?

05:52:36.980 | 'Cause you just look back, would you do it,

05:52:41.020 | would you do any part of your life different?

05:52:43.900 | Oh, I'd scrap all this, yeah.

05:52:46.340 | Yeah.

05:52:47.180 | Yeah, I'd scrap all this to be,

05:52:50.580 | you know, you always hear these guys say,

05:52:52.740 | I wouldn't change it because it made me the man I am today.

05:52:56.260 | The man I am today is a fucking 54-year-old scumbag,

05:53:01.260 | multiple felons, starting my life over, broke,

05:53:06.060 | living off of scraps, trying to make YouTube work.

05:53:12.580 | Like, I've got two dead parents, I'm divorced,

05:53:17.580 | I have a son that doesn't talk to me.

05:53:22.580 | I have a son that doesn't talk to me for good reason,

05:53:27.900 | not because of a misunderstanding, because he understands.

05:53:32.900 | Like, you can't even argue with him,

05:53:36.740 | he's got a powerful argument.

05:53:37.980 | Like, I don't wanna be a part of this guy's life,

05:53:39.580 | he's a scumbag.

05:53:40.780 | He stole money, he went on the run,

05:53:42.660 | he abandoned me when I was, you know, three years old.

05:53:47.060 | I don't want anything to do with him.

05:53:49.340 | Like, I get it.

05:53:52.900 | Like, you know, and I've tried to do all the right things.

05:53:56.380 | You know, I wrote the letters, I drew him pictures,

05:53:58.900 | I've tried to call, and it's not happening.

05:54:00.500 | Like, I would do anything to go back

05:54:04.820 | and just be that regular middle-class guy

05:54:09.100 | with the two kids and the wife, working a regular job.

05:54:14.500 | You know, I, like, that's a good life.

05:54:19.060 | You know, that's a good person.

05:54:20.860 | And, you know, I just made one arrogant decision

05:54:25.860 | after another, after another, until it snowballed

05:54:30.980 | and I couldn't take it back.

05:54:32.900 | And then I did everything I could.

05:54:35.180 | And if I wasn't the calculating, backstabbing,

05:54:42.660 | scumbag motherfucker that I can be,

05:54:46.780 | I'd be in prison right now.

05:54:48.940 | Sorry, you know, so yeah, yeah.

05:54:52.780 | I would much rather be a CPA right now.

05:54:55.060 | I would much rather, you know,

05:54:57.740 | should have stuck with being an insurance adjuster

05:54:59.740 | or something.

05:55:00.580 | I mean, you know, I never should have whited

05:55:03.180 | that 30-day late out, never.

05:55:05.620 | It was a mistake.

05:55:06.460 | - That was your first mistake.

05:55:07.980 | - That was a huge mistake.

05:55:09.820 | - You think your son will forgive you?

05:55:11.660 | - No, unfortunately, according to my ex-wife

05:55:16.660 | and my sister and everybody, that he is a part

05:55:22.340 | of their lives, you know, and I've seen him.

05:55:25.260 | You know, my mother's funeral, I saw him.

05:55:28.060 | You know, I've seen him at several functions.

05:55:30.580 | You look across and he looks right through me.

05:55:39.300 | I think that everybody says he's just like you.

05:55:43.900 | He's just like you.

05:55:44.780 | And everybody says I'm just like my dad.

05:55:46.780 | I've never smoked a cigarette.

05:55:51.020 | I've never drank alcohol, not a drop.

05:55:54.900 | Never done any drugs because my dad was an alcoholic

05:55:59.900 | and my dad smoked two packs a day

05:56:03.820 | and everything in our house reeked of nicotine

05:56:07.220 | and I've never smoked.

05:56:08.580 | And my dad was a pill head.

05:56:10.180 | He was always on some kind of prescription medication.

05:56:12.780 | He was drug, you know, and I didn't wanna be that person.

05:56:16.420 | And like one day, I drew a line in the sand

05:56:20.420 | and I wouldn't do it.

05:56:21.460 | And I think he's drawn a line in the sand

05:56:25.180 | and he's decided, you know, this is the hill

05:56:28.620 | I'm gonna die on and I'm not gonna back off it.

05:56:31.260 | And the thing is, my ex-wife tells him,

05:56:34.940 | he's a good person, you should be in his life.

05:56:38.500 | His father, 'cause he was adopted.

05:56:41.380 | When I was in prison, they adopted him.

05:56:43.580 | Nick is his dad.

05:56:47.060 | Nick has told him.

05:56:48.420 | Nick came to see me when I was in prison.

05:56:50.980 | Nick has told him like, hey, this is a mistake.

05:56:54.780 | You're making a mistake.

05:56:56.060 | Everybody that knows me knows him.

05:56:58.420 | And he has said no.

05:57:00.580 | So I fully believe it's no.

05:57:02.940 | I mean, I hope it's not.

05:57:04.540 | - Well, I hope he forgives you.

05:57:05.980 | I think there's a lot of good in you,

05:57:08.700 | despite you calling yourself a scumbag

05:57:10.740 | over and over in this podcast.

05:57:12.220 | - I keep bothering you, you mentioned that earlier.

05:57:14.780 | - What advice would you give to young people,

05:57:19.140 | given that you've lived quite a non-standard life?

05:57:21.780 | What advice would you give them how to live a life

05:57:24.620 | they can be proud of?

05:57:25.660 | - I mean, I'm in a position that anybody would listen to me,

05:57:33.660 | but 'cause to me, and I don't have any advice

05:57:36.900 | that I don't think a father would give you.

05:57:39.300 | And it's like, work hard, be appreciative.

05:57:42.860 | I mean, things are so good out here.

05:57:44.460 | I hear people complain all the time.

05:57:46.420 | And I think a huge part of just being happy

05:57:48.420 | is being appreciative.

05:57:49.340 | Like I didn't appreciate anything.

05:57:51.180 | When I had, this is so cliche,

05:57:52.860 | but when I had all the money in the world,

05:57:54.940 | I was miserable.

05:57:57.220 | But when I got out with nothing,

05:58:00.260 | I was happier in prison with nothing

05:58:04.860 | than I was with two or $3 million prior to prison.

05:58:09.220 | And dating a chick, I never should have been dating.

05:58:13.220 | Driving a sports car, vacationing all over the world,

05:58:16.500 | miserable.

05:58:17.480 | I'm crying driving away from prison

05:58:21.500 | because I already missed my friends.

05:58:23.300 | You could have never told me that was gonna happen.

05:58:26.940 | - Turns out money, in fact, does not buy happiness.

05:58:30.220 | - No, and it is such a cliche, right?

05:58:32.700 | But it's so true.

05:58:34.580 | - Crying driving away from prison, yeah.

05:58:37.580 | - You know what?

05:58:38.420 | I met my wife in the halfway house.

05:58:43.220 | So she had just gotten out of prison.

05:58:47.560 | She was in the halfway house with me.

05:58:48.780 | She just did five years for like a meth conspiracy.

05:58:51.980 | I never would have met her if I hadn't gone to prison.

05:58:55.140 | - And now your date night is hunting alligators together.

05:58:58.340 | - Yeah, that was like a month or so ago.

05:59:01.900 | - This is Florida, folks.

05:59:03.340 | This is what bad-ass people do in Florida.

05:59:07.760 | - My wife-- - Hog hunting.

05:59:09.740 | - Is a former, she used to,

05:59:11.940 | so she was an MP in the military.

05:59:14.340 | She was, she did, she hunted,

05:59:17.620 | she ran a hog hunting tour guide service for six years.

05:59:22.620 | Went to prison for five years, got out,

05:59:26.840 | and then now she's a Marine mechanic.

05:59:29.780 | And yeah, our date night the other night was,

05:59:33.620 | we went in the middle of the night,

05:59:34.780 | went to Lake Okeechobee and went alligator hunting.

05:59:38.380 | - Yeah, and if I may say so, she's quite beautiful.

05:59:41.500 | - Thank you, and I did nice.

05:59:43.620 | She didn't wanna date me in the halfway house too.

05:59:46.380 | I kept saying, "I feel like you're sweet on me."

05:59:48.140 | She's like, "I'm not, I'm not.

05:59:50.300 | "I make fun of guys like you.

05:59:51.700 | "You're a city boy."

05:59:52.540 | I'm like, "I don't know, I feel like."

05:59:54.440 | - Well, you wore her down.

05:59:55.940 | - I guess that's why I did exactly what I did.

05:59:59.000 | - It's that charisma.

06:00:00.880 | It always works.

06:00:02.080 | Well, Matt, thank you for being so honest.

06:00:04.240 | Thank you for being who you are.

06:00:05.960 | I do think there's a lot of good in you,

06:00:07.720 | and thank you for telling your story

06:00:08.960 | and the story of others who have,

06:00:11.320 | who've made mistakes in their life.

06:00:16.460 | Thank you for talking today.

06:00:17.440 | - I appreciate you having me on.

06:00:19.400 | - That was a really short conversation.

06:00:23.600 | Thanks for listening to this conversation

06:00:25.020 | with Matthew Cox.

06:00:26.240 | To support this podcast,

06:00:27.340 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

06:00:29.860 | And now, let me leave you with some words from Mario Puzo,

06:00:34.460 | author of "The Godfather."

06:00:36.820 | "Behind every successful fortune, there's a crime."

06:00:40.600 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

06:00:45.080 | (upbeat music)

06:00:47.660 | (upbeat music)

06:00:50.240 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Matthew Cox: FBI Most Wanted Con Man - $55 Million in Bank Fraud | Lex Fridman Podcast #409

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