Bogleheads® Chapter Series – Jill Steinberg - Successful Retirement: From Retiring to Rewiring
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.580 | Welcome to the Bogleheads Chapter Series.
00:00:06.640 | This episode was jointly hosted
00:00:08.360 | by the Pre and Early Retirement
00:00:10.280 | and Retired Life Stage Chapters
00:00:12.200 | and recorded November 10th, 2021.
00:00:15.440 | It features Jill Steinberg, PhD,
00:00:17.880 | a licensed clinical psychologist
00:00:19.840 | and emeritus professor at San Jose State University.
00:00:22.500 | Her topic is titled Successful Retirement
00:00:26.120 | or Retiring or Rewiring
00:00:28.160 | and addresses non-financial aspects of retirement.
00:00:30.780 | Bogleheads are investors
00:00:32.800 | who follow John Bogle's investing philosophy
00:00:35.120 | for attaining financial independence.
00:00:37.560 | This recording is for informational purposes only
00:00:40.000 | and should not be construed
00:00:41.060 | as personalized investment advice.
00:00:42.880 | It is my pleasure to introduce tonight's speaker,
00:00:51.640 | Jill Steinberg, PhD.
00:00:54.040 | Jill's an emeritus professor at San Jose State University
00:00:56.960 | and a licensed clinical psychologist.
00:00:59.480 | She has published research, taught classes
00:01:01.800 | and given presentations on successful retirement
00:01:04.320 | to universities and professional organizations.
00:01:07.360 | Our interviewer tonight is Gauri,
00:01:09.160 | who is one of the co-coordinators
00:01:10.460 | of the Bogleheads Starting Out Life Stage Chapter
00:01:13.160 | and also the coordinator
00:01:14.220 | of the New York City Bogleheads Chapter.
00:01:16.280 | Okay, there we go.
00:01:26.660 | Okay, we're already recording, right?
00:01:29.100 | So Gauri, I think we're ready to turn it over to you.
00:01:32.900 | - Fantastic, thanks so much, Carol.
00:01:34.340 | And thanks to the broader team for helping set this up.
00:01:37.820 | It's really phenomenal how the Bogleheads community
00:01:40.780 | helps so many others in the community and within itself.
00:01:45.780 | And that's a great segue to have Jill here.
00:01:48.900 | It's such an honor and privilege.
00:01:50.540 | Your work is so, I think, beyond the normal Boglehead theme.
00:01:55.860 | That I think this audience will get a lot out
00:01:59.180 | of what you're about to cover.
00:02:01.660 | So, so many questions were submitted via the RSVPs.
00:02:05.820 | So I'm gonna start, as Carol mentioned,
00:02:08.760 | with how they were chosen.
00:02:10.700 | The first question is, I'm 10 months retired
00:02:14.180 | and doing what I've always wanted, which is reading more
00:02:16.980 | and spending all my time with my wonderful wife.
00:02:20.060 | We're introverts and don't get out much.
00:02:22.420 | Should I expect to need a purpose at some point?
00:02:25.860 | And the purpose is in quotes.
00:02:27.580 | - Okay, so if you'll let me, Gauri,
00:02:32.060 | I'd like to just answer this first question
00:02:34.900 | a little bit longer, so the audience can get an idea
00:02:38.340 | of the kind of information I know
00:02:40.540 | and how I think about a question.
00:02:43.600 | And I'm gonna, you'll see, I don't give advice.
00:02:47.700 | I give the research information that addresses the question
00:02:52.700 | so that the person can be as informed as they can be
00:02:57.900 | in thinking it through decisions they wanna make.
00:03:01.420 | And because I don't know any of you.
00:03:03.820 | If I knew you and knew you well,
00:03:05.420 | then I feel like I could tailor my information more to you.
00:03:09.700 | So maybe that'll happen later.
00:03:11.580 | But for right now, let me address it.
00:03:13.720 | So it sounds like not a very complicated question.
00:03:18.720 | It was very clear and thoughtful to the point,
00:03:23.720 | and it's actually very complicated.
00:03:26.200 | So I'm gonna tell you some of the dimensions
00:03:28.560 | that I look at when I think about it.
00:03:30.640 | So the person's been retired and happily at home, reading.
00:03:35.640 | Will they need a purpose?
00:03:38.160 | First of all, let me congratulate them.
00:03:40.440 | The fact that they're home and they have a partner
00:03:43.280 | that they like being with, that's remarkable.
00:03:46.480 | And if you look at the literature,
00:03:48.680 | there's the longest term study on happiness
00:03:52.080 | is the Harvard study.
00:03:54.220 | The thing that came out there, so it's over 80 years now,
00:03:58.160 | they've been following people
00:03:59.480 | and eventually they followed the wives.
00:04:02.060 | At first they didn't,
00:04:03.200 | and they were following heterosexual people
00:04:05.560 | or that's how they identified.
00:04:08.240 | Anyway, having a partner that you feel good about.
00:04:11.640 | They use marriage, I use partner because that's too limited.
00:04:16.160 | Anyway, having a life partner that you feel good about
00:04:21.160 | is one of the best predictors of happiness.
00:04:24.760 | So congratulations on that,
00:04:26.400 | and congratulations that you created the money
00:04:29.880 | that you can have this experience or the resources.
00:04:33.440 | It is a privilege and amazing that some of us can do that.
00:04:38.440 | So in terms of purpose,
00:04:40.560 | what I wanna say to you is
00:04:42.520 | there is a huge literature on the importance of purpose
00:04:50.840 | in someone's life in terms of their mental health,
00:04:53.360 | their physical health.
00:04:54.920 | The literature says you can predict better
00:04:59.360 | about how happy or how healthy a person's gonna be
00:05:04.240 | using purpose more than if they're abusing alcohol,
00:05:09.960 | if they're abusing cigarettes, how stressed they are.
00:05:12.560 | That's how important it is.
00:05:14.400 | It's a huge literature.
00:05:16.520 | So given I don't know you,
00:05:18.960 | for all I know you're living your purpose,
00:05:21.600 | reading, learning, being with your wife
00:05:24.120 | might be how you identify purpose.
00:05:27.840 | It can come in many forms.
00:05:29.840 | So I'm gonna just tell you a couple other things
00:05:32.000 | that come up in my mind.
00:05:34.000 | So there's a huge literature throughout life
00:05:36.920 | about social connection.
00:05:39.380 | So you have your partner and you'll see later,
00:05:44.380 | depending something that came up to me
00:05:48.000 | that was very interesting in the literature
00:05:49.720 | is how different things can be for men
00:05:52.480 | and women in retirement.
00:05:54.320 | But anyway, men tend not to be as good
00:05:56.920 | at forming relationships as women.
00:06:00.160 | And there's a huge literature that that's important.
00:06:04.320 | And I wanna, oh, just two things.
00:06:06.760 | The literature I'm gonna tell you about
00:06:09.220 | is pre-COVID.
00:06:10.960 | So even though I'm up to date with the COVID statistics,
00:06:14.620 | this wasn't so much what's covered in COVID.
00:06:17.840 | If you wanna know about that,
00:06:19.360 | and I'll just give you the punchline to that
00:06:21.560 | is I just wrote an article.
00:06:23.800 | People over 60 have been doing the best during COVID
00:06:28.160 | in terms of mental wellbeing.
00:06:30.660 | So we figure out how to have our connections, our purpose.
00:06:36.500 | Let me see if there's something else I was thinking about.
00:06:39.400 | Oh, the other thing I wanted to tell you,
00:06:42.840 | the research says that usually when people start retiring,
00:06:47.540 | there's kind of this honeymoon phase.
00:06:50.040 | They're so happy to have time to think they're free
00:06:53.760 | to do what they want or away from a boss
00:06:56.420 | they didn't like, whatever it is.
00:06:57.920 | They're so happy that most people do well in the beginning.
00:07:01.800 | And then there's a major dip.
00:07:03.880 | The literature does not talk about when this happens.
00:07:08.220 | So I can tell you experientially what I've observed,
00:07:11.660 | but the literature is consistent.
00:07:13.860 | Usually people are really glad.
00:07:16.060 | Then there's an absolute major dip when people wake up to,
00:07:20.820 | is this all there is?
00:07:22.500 | I've already gone to every restaurant
00:07:25.180 | or I've traveled everywhere.
00:07:26.740 | Now what?
00:07:28.060 | They wake up to that and then it usually stabilizes.
00:07:31.460 | So most people are at least as happy in retirement
00:07:35.340 | as they were before,
00:07:36.820 | but about 25% of people have trouble adjusting
00:07:41.340 | and 10% at least just can't be happy.
00:07:46.340 | They have not figured it out.
00:07:48.620 | So is that good?
00:07:49.620 | Did I do okay with that one?
00:07:51.660 | - I think there's a lot of insight there
00:07:53.180 | and it almost implies one shouldn't wait until retirement
00:07:56.940 | to start exploring happiness, right?
00:07:59.060 | One should. - Oh, totally.
00:08:00.820 | Like there's so much research already
00:08:03.300 | and it's accessible, digestible.
00:08:04.860 | It's not just academic.
00:08:05.980 | I mean, the self-help section is kind of infinite.
00:08:09.700 | So yeah, that was great.
00:08:10.660 | And I think it's a great segue into our next question,
00:08:12.760 | which is how far in advance of retirement
00:08:15.620 | is it helpful to start shifting to a retirement mindset
00:08:19.860 | with regard to goals, purpose, et cetera?
00:08:23.100 | And the question asker says,
00:08:26.180 | I realize this will be highly individual,
00:08:28.540 | but hearing what's typical
00:08:29.980 | would be a helpful reference point.
00:08:32.020 | In terms of reference point,
00:08:33.500 | the reference here is financial.
00:08:34.860 | I know that your suggestions
00:08:37.580 | won't be financial necessarily,
00:08:39.520 | but the reference point they're citing
00:08:41.660 | is akin to when pre-retirees typically start shifting
00:08:45.780 | from equity to bonds
00:08:49.060 | or more conservative shifting ratio on the financial side.
00:08:53.340 | - Would it be okay with you if I answered it
00:08:56.540 | instead of financial,
00:08:58.500 | if I answer it about thinking about your life,
00:09:02.140 | when you should start planning?
00:09:04.020 | That way? - Absolutely, yeah.
00:09:05.740 | - And let me also say,
00:09:06.980 | I was kind of stunned and amazed
00:09:10.500 | at how informed people are in your group.
00:09:15.500 | It's really amazing that you're just way ahead
00:09:20.340 | of most people thinking about it.
00:09:22.280 | So in terms of planning,
00:09:24.460 | there is, again, no definite answer,
00:09:27.020 | but I'm gonna give you an example of somebody,
00:09:29.780 | two people to illustrate it.
00:09:31.700 | One person was a university professor.
00:09:34.580 | She said she started 10 years in advance of everything.
00:09:38.460 | The people that I'm relaying information
00:09:43.100 | would say they're having a successful retirement
00:09:45.860 | and they were able to do it financially.
00:09:47.620 | So she would say it took her at least 10 years in advance.
00:09:52.180 | I wanna tell you about Arthur.
00:09:53.900 | When I use names, they're people's real names
00:09:56.180 | and they've all given me permission
00:09:57.900 | from the hundreds of people I've interviewed.
00:10:00.060 | Anyway, Arthur retired from Google when he was 47.
00:10:03.780 | And I guess that's about eight years ago
00:10:06.220 | when I first interviewed him.
00:10:08.100 | And when he interviewed, when he retired,
00:10:11.460 | he was responsible largely as one of the main people.
00:10:15.580 | He was an early Googler
00:10:17.740 | and he was responsible for text messaging.
00:10:21.220 | So he had the opportunity, should I retire or not?
00:10:25.100 | He wasn't planning on it.
00:10:26.620 | He didn't grow up wealthy,
00:10:28.060 | but two things made him wanna retire.
00:10:30.860 | One is people said to him, if you have the chance,
00:10:33.340 | if you have young children to spend time with them, do it.
00:10:36.700 | And that, he and his wife, who also was professional,
00:10:40.460 | they both decided to do it.
00:10:42.460 | And in terms of planning, he knew this woman
00:10:45.780 | who was 103 years old, who retired when she was 50.
00:10:49.940 | And she told him, you better start planning in advance.
00:10:54.300 | You do not wanna wake up one day
00:10:57.340 | and kind of jump off a cliff.
00:10:59.580 | People don't like to be adrift.
00:11:03.140 | It's a very bad feeling, plan in advance.
00:11:08.660 | And he listened to this woman and what he did,
00:11:12.500 | he started thinking about it years in advance
00:11:15.500 | before he retired, but two years in advance,
00:11:19.500 | he started getting very serious about his planning.
00:11:22.940 | And he started writing down three categories.
00:11:26.020 | One is projects he wanted to work on,
00:11:29.860 | goals he wanted to achieve,
00:11:32.660 | and his description of what he wanted
00:11:35.140 | a typical day to look like.
00:11:37.660 | And he knew he better be concrete and specific
00:11:42.660 | and build in a routine.
00:11:44.500 | He had had a life that had a major schedule always,
00:11:48.180 | and he didn't wanna all of a sudden have no schedule.
00:11:52.020 | So that helped him.
00:11:54.500 | And now I wanna tell you about somebody else, Leslie.
00:11:57.460 | Leslie was very big in mental health
00:12:01.540 | in the state of California.
00:12:02.820 | And by trying to retire, she took a less huge position,
00:12:07.820 | but still very big.
00:12:09.580 | And she planned with her husband
00:12:11.500 | all the things they were gonna do.
00:12:12.940 | So it was very good planning.
00:12:15.380 | But shortly before she retired,
00:12:18.500 | her husband died and then her dog died.
00:12:22.380 | And what she has told me, and this woman is amazing.
00:12:26.020 | I only met her by interviewing her
00:12:28.020 | and have spoken to her many times.
00:12:29.940 | She actually can enjoy life.
00:12:33.220 | And it was such a shock.
00:12:34.940 | They were a tight couple
00:12:36.180 | that didn't really have other friends.
00:12:37.940 | So they didn't do that.
00:12:39.580 | And all of a sudden she was left by herself.
00:12:42.700 | What do you do?
00:12:44.020 | But what she did, she shifted her planning
00:12:47.620 | from instead of thinking ahead months or days or years,
00:12:52.620 | she now plans her days based on what she called elements,
00:12:57.620 | things that are important to her.
00:12:59.380 | I would use the word maybe values.
00:13:01.380 | What do you want to have happen in your day?
00:13:04.540 | And she uses these elements
00:13:07.380 | to determine how she's gonna do her day.
00:13:10.060 | Physical activity, social connection,
00:13:13.980 | meditation, creativity.
00:13:16.180 | And for her, that could be cooking or writing
00:13:19.220 | or a musical activity and service to others.
00:13:22.580 | And if you wanted to ever know more specifically,
00:13:25.180 | I can tell you what she does
00:13:26.620 | because it follows from her work.
00:13:29.540 | But as this person who ran mental health in the state,
00:13:34.180 | she also started meditating many years before.
00:13:38.260 | So in retirement, one of the things she does
00:13:41.020 | is teaches other people meditation
00:13:43.380 | from people living in old age homes to lawyers,
00:13:46.940 | to people she mentors.
00:13:49.500 | So I don't have an exact answer for planning,
00:13:54.060 | but that gives you an idea
00:13:55.980 | because it's not in the literature.
00:13:57.500 | And I will tell you what I know about,
00:13:59.820 | well, I'll tell you right now.
00:14:01.620 | Terms of planning, the literature is very, again, clear.
00:14:06.460 | One of the most important things
00:14:08.060 | if you wanna have a successful retirement is to plan.
00:14:12.540 | And people who plan figure out not just their money,
00:14:16.540 | how it's gonna be with their time,
00:14:19.060 | because that's a really big one.
00:14:21.300 | Usually when people plan,
00:14:23.460 | they plan as if it's gonna be a weekend, a long weekend.
00:14:26.820 | Yay, I have free time.
00:14:28.300 | Those are the planners.
00:14:30.100 | They're not good planners,
00:14:31.820 | but the people are like, oh, I'll figure it out.
00:14:34.060 | I've always wanted to something.
00:14:36.180 | It just doesn't go that way.
00:14:37.620 | You could have up to 20 years of retirement.
00:14:41.340 | So that's a long time.
00:14:44.780 | And by the way, retirement now is more an evolving process
00:14:49.140 | where we used to say it was an oxymoron
00:14:51.420 | that people worked during retirement.
00:14:53.540 | Now it's becoming more the new normal.
00:14:55.980 | And oftentimes it's defined purpose.
00:14:59.340 | But in terms of planning, you ask what's typical.
00:15:03.180 | If you look at the literature from social security,
00:15:06.900 | about 22% of people spend six months
00:15:11.900 | before they retire dealing with it.
00:15:16.060 | Another 22% up to a year.
00:15:18.860 | The research has 38% of people don't plan at all.
00:15:23.460 | And most people are sorry when they retire
00:15:26.580 | that they didn't plan.
00:15:28.540 | The other thing is people plan for their own happiness.
00:15:33.740 | But if you look at the literature on behavioral economics,
00:15:37.580 | people can't predict well, what will make them happy.
00:15:41.260 | Or for example, with retirement,
00:15:43.900 | 41% of people retire earlier
00:15:47.100 | than they said they were ever gonna retire.
00:15:49.460 | So I could give you more of that statistics,
00:15:51.500 | but I hope that gives the person an idea
00:15:54.540 | of how I think, oh, about planning.
00:15:57.020 | And my research found something new that got published
00:16:00.940 | that is not in the literature.
00:16:03.220 | Planning is very important.
00:16:05.340 | And what I found and Arthur illustrated,
00:16:09.340 | implement things before you retire.
00:16:12.740 | In other words, if you think you might wanna take a class
00:16:15.660 | or you might wanna get an animal
00:16:17.300 | or whatever it is you wanna do, try something.
00:16:21.940 | It doesn't matter whether that's what you like or not.
00:16:26.940 | It's the act of being actively engaged
00:16:30.220 | and trying to figure out.
00:16:31.820 | You wanna start trying that because like I said,
00:16:35.780 | it's evolving, you're gonna change.
00:16:38.260 | So, okay.
00:16:39.900 | - Yeah, well, thanks Jill.
00:16:40.740 | That makes perfect sense
00:16:41.620 | so that you're not newly testing something in retirement
00:16:46.620 | so that it's not the first time to adjust
00:16:51.660 | and make these kind of tweaks to make it work.
00:16:55.460 | You've already tested it perhaps decades before,
00:16:57.900 | at least years before so that you're ready
00:16:59.780 | and you know what works or what doesn't work, right?
00:17:02.700 | So that you enter retirement with more familiarity.
00:17:05.500 | I think that's a great segue to our next question.
00:17:07.580 | You mentioned the importance of a few things,
00:17:10.180 | planning and community specifically.
00:17:12.420 | So this question is in terms of building community
00:17:15.980 | and friendships in the real world,
00:17:17.860 | so many retirees seem to cling to Zoom.
00:17:21.140 | There simply seems to be fewer people available
00:17:23.900 | to build friendships with than I planned.
00:17:26.460 | Any suggestions?
00:17:28.900 | - First of all, I wanna tell you
00:17:30.140 | these questions are exactly right on.
00:17:35.140 | You are bringing up the real issues
00:17:37.980 | that people live with in retirement.
00:17:40.340 | So I'm gonna say a big theory name,
00:17:43.060 | Karstensen is the person
00:17:44.860 | and so much literature on aging,
00:17:47.460 | retirement, successful, this and that,
00:17:50.260 | they quote Karstensen.
00:17:52.620 | And she has this theory
00:17:53.860 | called socio-emotional selectivity theory.
00:17:58.580 | And what she says in her theory,
00:18:01.180 | and there's a lot of research to support it,
00:18:04.780 | is that as people get older, their timeframe shifts.
00:18:09.740 | We shift to how much time we have left
00:18:13.260 | and we shift to closer relationships
00:18:16.060 | and don't wanna make new friendships.
00:18:18.180 | So that doesn't mean it doesn't happen,
00:18:20.980 | but the questioner is exactly right.
00:18:23.940 | It's tough, people don't wanna do it.
00:18:27.220 | So they wanna focus on their close relationship.
00:18:31.860 | So say again, was the person saying,
00:18:35.180 | "How do you do it?"
00:18:36.420 | Or "Should I do it?"
00:18:37.820 | - Basically suggestions to broaden their community.
00:18:41.500 | They expected to be able to meet others
00:18:44.700 | and connect with others more easily,
00:18:46.500 | but they're finding fewer people in retirement
00:18:48.900 | than they'd expected.
00:18:50.580 | And probably a comparison of Zoom.
00:18:55.460 | So they're finding that a lot of retirees
00:18:58.260 | to quote cling to Zoom.
00:19:00.140 | So I guess Zoom is its own community
00:19:03.100 | and then how to broaden the more typical physical community.
00:19:08.100 | - Okay, I'm gonna have to make up some ideas
00:19:12.580 | based on my life and what people have told me they've done.
00:19:15.740 | There isn't an abundance of research,
00:19:19.100 | but I'm gonna tell this person
00:19:21.660 | something that's hard and interesting,
00:19:25.860 | which is I wanna tell them about pets
00:19:28.620 | and about going solo.
00:19:30.300 | I don't know if you know this,
00:19:33.700 | but since the '80s, there's been this phenomena
00:19:37.740 | of people wanting to live alone.
00:19:41.340 | So right now, 28% of people in our country live alone.
00:19:46.340 | That is a more common way to live
00:19:50.100 | than the nuclear family.
00:19:51.820 | More people live alone than in a nuclear family.
00:19:56.220 | It's only comparable to childless couples.
00:19:59.940 | They're the highest family structure.
00:20:02.900 | And the reason I'm saying this is people that live alone,
00:20:06.180 | one out of three boomers live alone.
00:20:08.780 | One out of three retirees live alone.
00:20:11.660 | And people are choosing it.
00:20:13.140 | It's not that they want, if they had a partner to die,
00:20:16.060 | but if the partner dies,
00:20:18.660 | people are choosing more to be on their own.
00:20:22.460 | And what that is encouraging is people that live alone
00:20:27.300 | are more likely to go out
00:20:29.580 | and be involved in their community.
00:20:31.980 | So actually, it was very hard for people living alone
00:20:35.420 | during COVID because you'll see the literature on couples,
00:20:39.940 | good couples, it really helped people during COVID.
00:20:43.540 | And the people living alone
00:20:44.940 | were very attached to their community.
00:20:47.860 | They're already giving and doing all these things.
00:20:50.140 | And during COVID, they couldn't do it.
00:20:52.620 | So why I'm bringing that up about one out of three people,
00:20:57.100 | they in non-COVID times,
00:20:59.860 | and who knows what it'll be
00:21:02.180 | as we hopefully emerge from this,
00:21:05.140 | they go out and meet people and want friends
00:21:08.100 | and want to contribute to things.
00:21:10.140 | So there are people that even though the theory
00:21:13.260 | is we want to stay with whom we know and get closer,
00:21:17.140 | first of all, people are wanting to put time into it.
00:21:20.100 | And there are more people available now to do it.
00:21:24.420 | The other thing is for men,
00:21:28.340 | I would say definitely don't wait for retirement.
00:21:31.660 | What the literature says, men at retirement
00:21:36.420 | have a hard time making friends
00:21:40.380 | or keeping people that they had at work.
00:21:43.540 | They have not developed the social structure
00:21:46.020 | or the skills to have friendships.
00:21:48.100 | And then they rely on their partner.
00:21:51.500 | So heterosexual or gay, one person is relying.
00:21:56.500 | And you'll see if we get to that question,
00:21:59.780 | that's tough on a couple.
00:22:01.900 | So I actually, I'm an introvert
00:22:05.220 | and I have my long-term 50-year relationship friendships,
00:22:09.500 | but I made some friendships during retirement.
00:22:15.140 | And I'm a person who goes for my interests.
00:22:18.500 | So I like to learn.
00:22:19.900 | I've gone back to the university and I'm taking courses
00:22:23.940 | and I've met people in courses.
00:22:25.980 | We are like-minded.
00:22:27.300 | And this is the same as the literature.
00:22:29.340 | If you're telling college students how to make friends,
00:22:33.060 | you try to do it based on your own interests.
00:22:35.580 | So say Yuri and I were in the same history class,
00:22:39.020 | at least we have that in common.
00:22:41.260 | I'm not taking a course I don't want
00:22:44.580 | in the hopes to meet Yuri, because, Yuri,
00:22:48.580 | because I wanna meet him or make friends.
00:22:53.580 | I'm taking things that are interesting for me.
00:22:56.620 | So at least I'll get that need met.
00:22:58.500 | And then if we meet, it's possible,
00:23:01.460 | we'll have something to talk about
00:23:03.300 | and we have similar interests.
00:23:05.100 | And where I live,
00:23:06.140 | we have this thing called Osher Lifelong Learners.
00:23:08.900 | They're over 900 members.
00:23:11.100 | It's national, but it's very different all over.
00:23:14.180 | So mine has over 900 members of people like us.
00:23:18.580 | And pre-COVID, we would meet in person.
00:23:21.900 | And we have over 50 interest groups.
00:23:26.340 | So it could be cooking.
00:23:27.860 | It could be speaking French.
00:23:29.660 | It could be social sciences.
00:23:31.780 | It could be investing.
00:23:33.300 | It could be taking hikes.
00:23:35.500 | I think you have nothing to lose to do something like that.
00:23:38.580 | It doesn't cost you anything.
00:23:39.980 | We pay a little bit to be members
00:23:42.260 | and that just goes to college student scholarships.
00:23:45.420 | But they have classes.
00:23:47.180 | It's a very small commitment for a big payoff.
00:23:52.100 | And the other way I think you might meet people,
00:23:55.540 | and I like to try and do two things at once.
00:23:58.380 | So let's meet your purpose and maybe you'll meet people.
00:24:02.580 | So maybe you find a way of volunteering,
00:24:08.260 | and that's a whole other issue.
00:24:10.380 | But there's something that feels valuable to you
00:24:13.100 | and you go for training for that.
00:24:15.700 | You could maybe meet like-minded people that way.
00:24:20.260 | But I wouldn't wait for retirement
00:24:23.300 | 'cause as you said, it's gonna be harder.
00:24:27.460 | So you gotta give me just a little feedback
00:24:30.940 | since I'm answering such long.
00:24:32.660 | - Yeah, no, I think that was great.
00:24:36.220 | There was a lot there.
00:24:37.100 | I'll highlight a few things that resonated,
00:24:39.500 | I think with the earlier questions
00:24:41.140 | as well as upcoming questions.
00:24:44.100 | One is you can try out different things
00:24:46.700 | and see what resonates with you, right?
00:24:49.180 | Meaning you, meaning the broader audience.
00:24:51.380 | So that whether it's taking classes or volunteering
00:24:54.300 | or meeting one's neighbors,
00:24:56.220 | these things have commonality by design, right?
00:24:58.980 | Like if you chose a class,
00:25:00.500 | other people in that class share that interest.
00:25:03.180 | And then going back to the earlier questioners,
00:25:06.300 | the crux of the question,
00:25:08.380 | if it implied feeling isolated,
00:25:10.500 | there may be other people who feel isolated
00:25:12.780 | and wanna meet other people too.
00:25:14.820 | So that's a commonality.
00:25:16.060 | One doesn't need to feel alone in their isolation.
00:25:20.260 | That might sound odd,
00:25:24.140 | but there are many other people who feel isolated
00:25:27.060 | who are just as easily willing and able to connect.
00:25:29.980 | And all it takes is like a hello sometimes
00:25:32.300 | in a hallway or a pantry or a sidewalk or community space.
00:25:37.300 | So those are things that at least resonated with me
00:25:41.700 | from your response, Jill,
00:25:43.260 | that if you try these things out before retirement,
00:25:47.020 | you can see what worked for you
00:25:48.660 | so that by the time you're in retirement,
00:25:50.860 | you're more practiced in meeting others
00:25:53.380 | and connecting with others and figuring out,
00:25:55.340 | okay, I tried this community or church or volunteering
00:25:59.260 | and that didn't work,
00:26:00.140 | but I can try this camera club or book club
00:26:02.340 | or whatever it is.
00:26:04.260 | It sounds like there are many options available.
00:26:07.980 | Why don't we develop some of what you said
00:26:11.100 | with the next question?
00:26:12.460 | You spoke about men in retirement tendencies.
00:26:16.780 | Maybe if you can elaborate on that.
00:26:18.500 | This question is,
00:26:19.700 | do men or women have a different experience in retirement
00:26:23.260 | and what differences are there by gender?
00:26:25.860 | And of course, some of this will be generalized,
00:26:28.220 | but Jill, you have so much data
00:26:29.740 | and interview-based experiences.
00:26:33.980 | Whatever you can present counts.
00:26:38.020 | - Okay, so I'll tell you this.
00:26:39.620 | And if you can help me remember later,
00:26:42.820 | it's kind of a sweet thing about pets,
00:26:45.580 | the importance of pets that in the COVID research,
00:26:50.020 | I found it more than before.
00:26:52.900 | Anyway, men and women, yeah,
00:26:55.300 | they tend to have a very different experience.
00:26:57.580 | I'll start with some stuff about women.
00:26:59.660 | First of all, women are so focused on taking care of others.
00:27:04.660 | And you know how women get pushed out of careers
00:27:07.540 | to stay home with children.
00:27:09.660 | For women, they don't think about retirement
00:27:13.340 | as well financially, and they don't plan.
00:27:16.940 | So women that end up as widows or single
00:27:20.300 | tend to have more issues, financial issues,
00:27:25.420 | be less wealthy than men.
00:27:27.380 | And that's a big issue because you need finances
00:27:31.700 | to make other choices.
00:27:33.460 | So women tend to end up economically insecure.
00:27:38.460 | And women in retirement,
00:27:42.300 | so again, these are generalizations,
00:27:44.420 | but you'll see they make sense.
00:27:48.180 | And I can tell you the data.
00:27:50.900 | Women tend not to be as satisfied in retirement as men
00:27:55.340 | because the burdens of family life
00:27:58.540 | is that we tend to keep it.
00:28:00.500 | So here we're not just taking care of maybe children,
00:28:04.180 | and some people, we're so geared towards other,
00:28:07.820 | we're taking care of children.
00:28:08.980 | Now we're taking care of our parents, our grandchildren,
00:28:11.860 | our sisters, our brothers.
00:28:14.340 | And it kind of goes on like that.
00:28:16.380 | If you look at the literature
00:28:17.580 | of who's taking care of whom during dementia, caretaker,
00:28:21.060 | it's the women, it doesn't stop.
00:28:22.940 | And women over 65 who have a partner
00:28:27.940 | tend to spend an hour more a day with domestic work
00:28:33.700 | than they ever did before
00:28:35.340 | from cooking and cleaning and stuff like that.
00:28:37.980 | So the other thing is women tend to be so other-oriented
00:28:50.380 | that they continue with these responsibilities.
00:28:53.020 | And then we tend to volunteer more taking care of others.
00:28:58.020 | For men, a bigger issue is retiring from a job
00:29:03.220 | that the man felt really good about
00:29:07.740 | makes it more likely he's gonna have a hard time.
00:29:10.620 | So women can do better leaving their jobs.
00:29:15.460 | I'll say a couple more things about men,
00:29:17.460 | but the thing about women in jobs,
00:29:20.060 | for many women, their jobs,
00:29:22.220 | if it's a good job or a good career,
00:29:24.860 | helps them feel good about themselves.
00:29:26.940 | It's outside all their domestic responsibilities.
00:29:30.340 | They can feel good about it
00:29:31.740 | and it can limit the time that they do domestic.
00:29:36.500 | So a lot of times women, we don't know how to say no
00:29:40.700 | and other people know to ask us,
00:29:42.940 | will you take care of my kid?
00:29:44.140 | Will you drive my neighbor?
00:29:45.260 | Will you blah, blah, blah?
00:29:47.100 | And we say, yes, yes, yes.
00:29:48.740 | Where if we can say, I can't, I'm working, it's better.
00:29:53.020 | You'll see, even being grandparents,
00:29:55.340 | there's some literature that women like being grandparents
00:29:58.580 | better when they work than when they retired.
00:30:01.420 | Not always, but that was a gender issue that came up.
00:30:06.140 | For men, I said the issue of it's harder adjustment
00:30:11.020 | if they really like their jobs.
00:30:13.140 | It's harder having friendships.
00:30:17.180 | They, maybe they thought they had friends at work,
00:30:20.420 | but they didn't necessarily meet with them outside.
00:30:23.620 | They're not sure what to do.
00:30:25.340 | But the good thing for men is they tend to,
00:30:31.140 | in retirement, find better purpose.
00:30:33.700 | And we're not sure is that because
00:30:36.540 | they tend to take work longer
00:30:41.180 | or go back to work.
00:30:43.940 | And here's like a male, female agenda.
00:30:47.540 | And usually you'll see my thing says, she, they.
00:30:50.900 | I try to not be so binary, but the literature is binary.
00:30:55.180 | It's she, he.
00:30:57.180 | So anyway, like if your husband is sick,
00:31:02.180 | woman, heterosexual woman,
00:31:04.780 | you are 50% more likely to retire.
00:31:09.140 | Reverse it, man, your wife is sick.
00:31:13.820 | You're 50% less likely to retire.
00:31:17.660 | And if you have dementia,
00:31:21.220 | so we won't get too much into health issues
00:31:23.740 | 'cause that could take forever,
00:31:24.980 | but imagine you're going down this horrible path of dementia.
00:31:29.460 | Most women don't get informal care at home.
00:31:34.500 | They don't stay at home
00:31:35.540 | because who's gonna take care of the woman?
00:31:38.700 | Is it their adult child?
00:31:40.700 | Who's gonna take care of the man?
00:31:43.020 | The wife.
00:31:44.020 | So that just gives you ideas of things that come up
00:31:47.980 | later in life in retirement
00:31:50.580 | that are different for men and women.
00:31:52.820 | - Okay.
00:31:55.060 | That's great to hear the,
00:31:58.100 | because you have so much factual evidence.
00:32:00.300 | I think that really helps a lot of people.
00:32:02.780 | I'll jokingly highlight one thing you said,
00:32:05.460 | which is men have a harder time
00:32:07.900 | if they enjoyed their work.
00:32:08.980 | So maybe a takeaway there is guys should find a job
00:32:12.820 | they really dislike a few years before retiring.
00:32:16.300 | You touched on some things
00:32:18.940 | that lead into our next question,
00:32:20.500 | which is as a stay-at-home mom and raising the kids
00:32:24.860 | while my spouse worked a lot of hours,
00:32:27.500 | how can I transition to a new life experience
00:32:30.300 | where we're together 24/7?
00:32:32.860 | And I'll add to the question,
00:32:34.700 | which is need folks be together 24/7,
00:32:39.180 | or can you talk about the alternatives,
00:32:42.500 | like volunteering with separate friends
00:32:46.500 | and separate, you know, separate pursuits.
00:32:51.500 | - Asking this question, it's so insightful.
00:32:56.900 | I actually hadn't realized how much problems
00:33:00.500 | couples could have in retirement.
00:33:03.420 | I thought it was gonna be, you know,
00:33:06.620 | people say, "Oh, I'm gonna this.
00:33:08.940 | I can't wait to retire.
00:33:10.060 | We're gonna have all this time."
00:33:11.740 | It's not always like that.
00:33:14.820 | It's not so great.
00:33:16.180 | In the beginning of retirement,
00:33:19.220 | couples tend to have more tension.
00:33:23.540 | And a big reason is what this person brought up.
00:33:28.260 | You're used to your own space,
00:33:30.180 | whether it's your office or a stay-at-home person,
00:33:35.060 | that's their office, whether it was their kitchen
00:33:38.260 | or they have NPR on or whatever they do.
00:33:41.780 | People revealed to me, and then the literature supports,
00:33:45.380 | space is a really big issue.
00:33:48.140 | And people have conflict over it.
00:33:51.500 | And some of the people that responded to me
00:33:54.580 | went to extreme lengths to get their husbands
00:33:57.580 | not just involved in other things,
00:33:59.660 | but involved outside of the house.
00:34:01.780 | So remember, this is pre-COVID.
00:34:04.100 | One woman even built, is the word aviary?
00:34:07.900 | The, you know, where you have birds?
00:34:10.100 | And outside, aviary, outside of their house
00:34:15.100 | to even get them out of the house.
00:34:18.060 | So here's when you asked me what to do.
00:34:20.620 | First of all, if your partner is there now,
00:34:25.980 | maybe you could go read this section, not this minute,
00:34:28.820 | but of my research that is about couples.
00:34:33.140 | So you both can be informed and say,
00:34:35.460 | "Wow, this could be difficult.
00:34:37.500 | We weren't thinking this way."
00:34:39.780 | Here's like a funny quote.
00:34:41.900 | When the CFO of Google retired, his name was Patrick Pichette,
00:34:47.900 | he said, upon giving his leaving notice, he said,
00:34:54.740 | "Tamara and I will be celebrating our 25th anniversary.
00:34:59.300 | When our kids are asked by their friends
00:35:01.260 | about the success of the longevity of our marriage,
00:35:05.460 | they simply joke that Tamara and I
00:35:07.500 | have spent so little time together
00:35:09.900 | that it's really too early to tell
00:35:11.820 | if our marriage will in fact succeed."
00:35:14.220 | So that's kind of funny, tongue in cheek.
00:35:17.180 | However, it's really what happens in the literature.
00:35:20.460 | Couples can have a really hard time in the beginning.
00:35:24.220 | And then if they make it through,
00:35:26.060 | they're in really the best shape.
00:35:28.060 | So when I think about this, if I was that woman,
00:35:32.540 | I'd be thinking about, I'm home alone now,
00:35:36.020 | what's really important to me?
00:35:38.140 | Is it that I have a space?
00:35:41.940 | I got used to my kitchens, my own,
00:35:44.340 | and I know I'm saying gender things,
00:35:46.260 | but these things are really true and they do come up.
00:35:50.060 | I've had women say to me, more than men,
00:35:54.380 | "You know what? I like having NPR on."
00:35:57.900 | I've had women say, "I have my computer to myself all day."
00:36:02.140 | And all of a sudden he's saying,
00:36:03.580 | "Who are you writing to? What are you doing?"
00:36:05.980 | So if these things are important to you,
00:36:08.780 | that you have your own space,
00:36:10.980 | then think about in advance, what do I not wanna lose?
00:36:15.900 | I like, for example, maybe taking my dog for a walk
00:36:20.020 | by myself, or I like spending time
00:36:22.260 | with my friends by myself.
00:36:24.020 | You're gonna see if your life is like the literature,
00:36:29.020 | the man comes in and now he's dependent on you.
00:36:33.340 | He's just so excited to have time with you,
00:36:35.700 | and he doesn't have these other people,
00:36:37.300 | he wants to do these things with you.
00:36:38.980 | And by the way, people say they're gonna do
00:36:41.580 | all these leisurely things together.
00:36:43.820 | I think it's over half, it's higher than over half,
00:36:47.820 | couples say it, but only like 24% of people do.
00:36:51.300 | So again, we don't necessarily predict how it's gonna be.
00:36:55.100 | But I would spend some time myself on saying,
00:36:58.220 | "What's really important?"
00:37:00.420 | And before you get in that situation,
00:37:03.500 | try and talk to your partner about it
00:37:05.380 | and say, "This is what the literature says.
00:37:07.700 | What are you gonna want?"
00:37:08.860 | Because people are so not concrete,
00:37:11.940 | either to themselves or to each other.
00:37:13.860 | You'll read stories where people will say,
00:37:17.300 | "We were retired.
00:37:18.540 | I thought we were gonna move to New York City
00:37:21.940 | and walk around and explore New York."
00:37:24.300 | The other one says, "Retirement?
00:37:26.300 | I wanna be home and travel abroad."
00:37:29.620 | So they each thought they knew what they wanted,
00:37:32.300 | they never talked about it,
00:37:33.580 | and then they're very disappointed
00:37:35.460 | because now one's wanting to move,
00:37:37.500 | the other one's wanting to travel.
00:37:39.580 | So the more you can get concrete in your head,
00:37:43.220 | "What is working for me?
00:37:44.780 | What would I like to see continue?"
00:37:47.540 | Maybe you say, "You know, I get up.
00:37:50.580 | When my partner goes to work,
00:37:53.260 | I have an hour to myself where I exercise
00:37:56.540 | or I call my kids or I read a book or whatever."
00:38:00.900 | You don't have that if two people are in the same space.
00:38:05.220 | What is it?
00:38:06.340 | Try and think through concretely what it is.
00:38:09.780 | Once you're in that situation,
00:38:11.660 | people get their feelings hurt.
00:38:13.100 | "Oh, you don't want me around?
00:38:14.660 | Oh, is that what you're saying?
00:38:15.940 | Oh, I'm annoying you."
00:38:17.860 | If you say it in advance,
00:38:19.900 | people aren't in the middle of it and upset.
00:38:23.380 | So as much as you can think it through,
00:38:25.780 | look at the litter and say,
00:38:27.340 | "Oh boy, the literature, it says this could happen.
00:38:30.940 | What could we do to make it better for us?"
00:38:34.140 | So does that seem helpful?
00:38:36.780 | - Yeah, that's absolutely helpful.
00:38:38.100 | And I think it aligns with a lot of the Boglehead work
00:38:41.940 | of building portfolios and figuring out withdrawal,
00:38:46.700 | you know, formulas and timing.
00:38:49.380 | A lot of it revolves around how do you envision retirement?
00:38:52.460 | And so this is probably a thing,
00:38:56.700 | something that folks have already hopefully practiced,
00:39:00.300 | how do they envision retirement?
00:39:01.580 | And like you're saying,
00:39:02.700 | spouses can have very different visions of it,
00:39:04.900 | but as long as you talk about it in advance,
00:39:07.540 | you're not clashing as much when the time comes.
00:39:11.460 | Something else that came to mind as you described it,
00:39:14.860 | just the value of time alone.
00:39:16.580 | So I think time alone, a personal space,
00:39:18.860 | and I think this doesn't come up
00:39:20.180 | in the typical financial conversations, right?
00:39:22.580 | We're focused on what our portfolio can generate
00:39:26.780 | and how to get there and all these things,
00:39:28.780 | but I don't know that enough folks
00:39:31.140 | are really playing out the physicality
00:39:33.740 | of sharing a space 24/7 or, you know,
00:39:36.620 | having a private space or sharing a space
00:39:39.260 | that used to feel private because someone else wasn't there.
00:39:41.860 | So yeah, I think there was a lot of wisdom there.
00:39:45.260 | I'll just share this one comment.
00:39:48.700 | The comedian joked that when he goes on vacation,
00:39:52.700 | the whole family packs into the car
00:39:55.860 | and his vacation is when he closes his wife's door,
00:40:00.860 | the passenger side, walks around the back of the car
00:40:05.660 | and gets to the driver's side door.
00:40:07.940 | That's his vacation.
00:40:09.140 | Once he sits in the car and closes the door,
00:40:11.540 | there's no peace of mind, you know,
00:40:13.620 | that would typically come vacation.
00:40:14.980 | So it was humorous how he presented it,
00:40:17.700 | but I think there's a lot of truth in that.
00:40:19.860 | Similar to a lot of what you mentioned,
00:40:24.100 | this next question, it appears to be from a widowed woman,
00:40:28.420 | but it could apply to, you know,
00:40:31.620 | still married or single woman or anyone
00:40:35.660 | who's transitioning from working full-time to retirement.
00:40:40.260 | So I'll read it as it's presented.
00:40:43.020 | Any suggestions for a widowed woman
00:40:45.620 | who's likely retiring in the next year
00:40:48.140 | on adjusting to life without full-time work?
00:40:51.180 | - Well, gee, again, it's a hard and very insightful question.
00:41:04.140 | Women in heterosexual relationships tend to live longer.
00:41:08.020 | We can spend 15 to 20 years alone, typically.
00:41:13.020 | And so there's the beginning and then it keeps going.
00:41:18.180 | So how to plan?
00:41:22.020 | I think all the things we've been talking about,
00:41:25.820 | what are your interests?
00:41:27.860 | What can you do before you retire
00:41:31.300 | that seem like something you might wanna do?
00:41:33.780 | So do you have a goal?
00:41:34.780 | Maybe you've never exercised and that's an interest
00:41:39.060 | and you wanna see if you want, don't wait, try now.
00:41:42.700 | It doesn't matter if it works or not.
00:41:44.980 | And I would say friendships, which hopefully you have them
00:41:49.540 | because women are better at that.
00:41:53.540 | If you can rely on friendships
00:41:56.380 | and talking to them about what you do.
00:41:58.980 | And if we have time tonight or another time,
00:42:03.740 | I really think our best resources are each other.
00:42:06.620 | I can tell you the literature,
00:42:08.620 | but there are probably other women here
00:42:11.620 | who have gone through this and that they can tell you,
00:42:15.420 | this is what I did.
00:42:16.420 | This worked, this didn't work, it changed.
00:42:19.780 | So if there are things that you thought
00:42:24.620 | you've wanted to learn,
00:42:26.060 | maybe you can go take a course at the university.
00:42:30.060 | Maybe you could something, do art with a group of people
00:42:35.060 | that you try it.
00:42:39.180 | If you don't like it,
00:42:40.300 | you don't have to go back the second time.
00:42:43.220 | But things like our Osher Lifelong Learner,
00:42:46.260 | if you were here, I would say, definitely check it out
00:42:50.740 | because it's a very low commitment.
00:42:53.060 | All you have to do is go
00:42:54.700 | and you can leave right in the middle of the meeting.
00:42:57.420 | It's just, there's 900 of us.
00:43:00.860 | So we're in all different situations.
00:43:03.540 | And if you took like a social interest group
00:43:06.340 | or when I was doing focus groups on retirement,
00:43:09.420 | you're bound to meet people,
00:43:10.860 | or then you see them again and you go, oh, hi, I saw you.
00:43:14.660 | So whatever you've done in the rest of your life
00:43:19.660 | to make friends, to be involved,
00:43:23.420 | I would say, try doing it now.
00:43:25.780 | There's an enormous literature for everybody
00:43:29.340 | about the importance of exercise.
00:43:32.180 | So if I could encourage you to exercise,
00:43:35.340 | and I wanna tell you something that came out
00:43:37.820 | in the COVID literature about pets,
00:43:41.700 | how much pets helped people during COVID.
00:43:46.380 | Cats and dogs are what they wrote about,
00:43:49.100 | and dogs even more than cats.
00:43:51.060 | First of all, any animal,
00:43:53.740 | it said it gave people an excuse
00:43:56.700 | both to have something to touch and to talk out loud.
00:44:01.700 | I have not reviewed this literature,
00:44:03.860 | but since I've thought about it,
00:44:06.260 | I don't even know if there is a literature.
00:44:07.860 | I think people have a need to talk out loud.
00:44:10.340 | When I'm walking at the beach, I live in Santa Cruz.
00:44:12.900 | So I start my day unlike when I worked.
00:44:16.820 | When I worked, I was on the bus by 6.30 a.m. commuting.
00:44:20.300 | Now I am at the beach walking my dog.
00:44:22.980 | Anyway, people just talk to you about random things.
00:44:26.700 | They just, "Oh, look at this."
00:44:28.420 | So I think having an animal,
00:44:30.780 | and what they say about dogs more than cats,
00:44:34.100 | dogs during COVID, but this could be generalizing,
00:44:38.100 | give you a routine.
00:44:39.460 | They make you go out
00:44:41.300 | where a cat does not make you have to exercise.
00:44:44.660 | You don't have to with a dog,
00:44:46.140 | but it's preferred if you're gonna get a dog.
00:44:48.900 | And dogs make it more likely
00:44:51.300 | that you might interact with other people.
00:44:54.300 | So anyway, those are like, if you were wanting an animal,
00:44:59.060 | it might be a good time to start thinking
00:45:02.180 | about how you could get an animal.
00:45:04.340 | But then you might go to a class about training your animal,
00:45:08.060 | and then there are other like-minded people.
00:45:11.020 | So that's, I would say, go with your interests.
00:45:15.220 | Try and find purpose.
00:45:16.700 | In retirement, women tend to volunteer more.
00:45:20.420 | When we volunteer, oh, I'll tell you about men too.
00:45:23.820 | When we volunteer, it's usually helping others.
00:45:26.380 | Men tend to be administrators,
00:45:28.420 | and what men tend to like is mentoring.
00:45:33.020 | So widow, widower, if there's a situation
00:45:36.020 | where you could have ongoing mentoring
00:45:37.900 | of somebody that was in your field,
00:45:40.300 | or a child that the courts have pulled out of their home,
00:45:45.300 | people tend to like helping others.
00:45:49.740 | And it's a chance to do it.
00:45:52.700 | I'd like to think more what else a woman could do
00:45:55.740 | other than everything that I've said before.
00:45:58.500 | So maybe it'll come to me now,
00:46:00.260 | or maybe I could write to her another time.
00:46:03.340 | - That sounds great.
00:46:04.180 | Well, thanks for those great suggestions.
00:46:06.500 | There was a lot there, and I think it builds
00:46:09.340 | on a lot of the other things you said earlier.
00:46:13.180 | Al, also, for folks who are commenting in the chat,
00:46:19.340 | there's a lot of shared wisdom there within the community.
00:46:21.700 | You mentioned dog walking, Jill.
00:46:23.460 | Someone, I think, jokingly said, "My dog walks us."
00:46:27.580 | And I think a lot of us who, pre-retirement,
00:46:30.540 | just walking around your neighborhood,
00:46:31.860 | you see certain times a day,
00:46:33.620 | there are definitely dog walking sort of communities.
00:46:37.540 | Like you see the same people, right?
00:46:40.500 | The same time of day, the same kind of dog walking route.
00:46:42.860 | So you become friends with these people sometimes,
00:46:45.700 | and that becomes your community.
00:46:47.220 | So again, it's practicing things well before retirement.
00:46:51.140 | The next question relates to what you just addressed,
00:46:54.140 | and I think you answered some of it.
00:46:56.180 | I'll read it, but to not be redundant.
00:46:58.940 | I think it's still worth asking,
00:47:00.820 | but there's an aspect to it
00:47:03.020 | that maybe you can elaborate more on.
00:47:04.940 | So I'll read the question.
00:47:06.460 | "I've been a workaholic my whole life,
00:47:08.500 | "and fear the free time will kill me.
00:47:12.740 | "How should I adjust?"
00:47:14.020 | So I think practically and emotionally,
00:47:16.340 | you've given a lot of suggestions.
00:47:18.380 | And again, the chat has very specific resources
00:47:21.260 | about volunteer groups and meetups.
00:47:23.300 | So how about, is there an emotional component
00:47:27.900 | that people need to transition to or towards
00:47:32.900 | if their time had been occupied,
00:47:36.500 | and now they have maybe volunteer
00:47:38.860 | or community things to fill it,
00:47:40.380 | but is there an emotional transition as well?
00:47:44.820 | - Yeah, and let me tell you something.
00:47:46.460 | I just read an article that just came out very recently
00:47:50.260 | about discretionary time.
00:47:53.100 | It was really interesting.
00:47:54.380 | It's people in business, Wharton,
00:47:57.500 | but it's psychological is what they're saying.
00:48:00.140 | You know how when you work,
00:48:01.620 | most people are like, "I don't have enough time.
00:48:04.780 | "It was a famine of time.
00:48:06.140 | "I feel stressed."
00:48:08.420 | Well, then the opposite they wanna look at,
00:48:11.180 | if you have too much time, how is that for you?
00:48:15.420 | And people don't feel productive.
00:48:17.700 | They feel bad.
00:48:19.620 | People don't wanna feel adrift.
00:48:21.900 | So this research says the best amount
00:48:26.900 | of discretionary time in a day,
00:48:29.900 | time when you can do just what you wanna do.
00:48:32.500 | And for me, a lot of that is just reading and learning,
00:48:36.060 | but it's still, it's my time that I'm wanting it now.
00:48:40.300 | They say two hours a day.
00:48:42.580 | From zero to two, it goes up.
00:48:45.500 | From two to five hours, it's peak.
00:48:47.900 | So whether you have two hours or five hours,
00:48:50.220 | it doesn't get better.
00:48:51.340 | And after five hours, it goes down.
00:48:54.060 | So that might help the person.
00:48:56.060 | I don't have research that says
00:48:57.900 | too much free time will kill you.
00:49:00.820 | But like you're saying, it's not a good idea.
00:49:03.980 | Loneliness might kill people.
00:49:06.740 | Not having a purpose might kill people.
00:49:09.220 | If you look at what correlates.
00:49:11.300 | So what I would say for this person,
00:49:16.540 | if you could be thinking ahead,
00:49:19.300 | are there things I wanted to do?
00:49:21.140 | What could be my purpose?
00:49:24.020 | And there is a literature on how to find your purpose.
00:49:27.540 | And one, a myth is people should do
00:49:31.900 | what they're passionate about.
00:49:33.940 | Well, a lot of people don't have passions and never do.
00:49:39.460 | And a lot of times when you start something new
00:49:42.900 | and you start doing well at it, it can become a passion.
00:49:47.340 | So try things.
00:49:48.820 | And the literature says people in retirement
00:49:53.580 | that try new things, they give it the label innovators,
00:49:57.340 | they are happier.
00:50:00.460 | So I would say for this person, very astute question.
00:50:04.660 | It's too many hours in a day, let alone 20 years of it.
00:50:09.660 | Think concretely like Arthur did.
00:50:12.620 | What would I like a day to look like?
00:50:15.700 | What do I wanna put in there?
00:50:17.100 | Or as Leslie gave you an idea, think about your values.
00:50:21.900 | What's important to you?
00:50:23.940 | So you might, or from this, maybe you say,
00:50:27.900 | I'm not even sure.
00:50:29.100 | I'm so geared towards working or taking care of others.
00:50:32.500 | I don't even know anymore what I want,
00:50:34.900 | which is unfortunately very true for many people.
00:50:38.260 | Many people don't reflect, they just do.
00:50:41.580 | I would say, well, Jill said,
00:50:43.340 | it's important to have friendships.
00:50:45.100 | Jill said, it's important to have purpose.
00:50:47.500 | It's important to exercise.
00:50:49.380 | Maybe if you don't know what you want,
00:50:51.580 | you could at least take from the literature,
00:50:56.020 | I'm gonna start trying to fill my life
00:50:59.940 | with some of these things and see how it goes.
00:51:02.500 | And then you'll say,
00:51:03.580 | gee, I have no idea how to find a purpose or an interest.
00:51:07.140 | Then you'll either email me or a Bogle head and say,
00:51:11.740 | what did you do?
00:51:12.780 | How did you find this?
00:51:14.940 | 'Cause you're gonna see there are no right and wrong answers
00:51:18.060 | where it's an evolving process
00:51:21.140 | and we're trying to learn from each other.
00:51:23.260 | - Yeah, and I think that you can overlay that
00:51:27.220 | to so many other aspects of life, right?
00:51:29.260 | Like your favorite foods or favorite music
00:51:31.860 | or favorite cities.
00:51:32.820 | You need to visit and sample
00:51:34.740 | before you really know what resonates.
00:51:36.940 | And what you said hits home
00:51:39.580 | about some people not having a passion.
00:51:41.820 | There's a well-known author, Cal Newport.
00:51:44.660 | He's written "So Good They Can't Ignore You"
00:51:46.820 | and his more famous work is probably "Deep Work."
00:51:49.940 | And he cites as a myth, as you did, this idea of passion.
00:51:54.940 | And so rather than, you know,
00:51:58.060 | it's almost cliche to advise people to pursue their passion
00:52:02.020 | in terms of career, he advises to develop something
00:52:05.700 | and then in becoming really good at it,
00:52:08.420 | you're more likely to excel at it
00:52:10.500 | and it can become a passion.
00:52:11.980 | I'm paraphrasing.
00:52:13.300 | He's much more in depth about the topic,
00:52:16.060 | but he tries to debunk this idea of pursue your passion
00:52:19.540 | because that's such a, it's a very appealing thought
00:52:24.540 | that, you know, a lot of people get that advice.
00:52:26.980 | So the other thing that came to mind from what you said
00:52:31.620 | was regret minimization.
00:52:34.060 | So not just how you said, you know,
00:52:37.380 | are there things I wanted to do?
00:52:39.740 | You can also frame it as
00:52:42.020 | what will I regret not having tried, right?
00:52:44.980 | So that's one way.
00:52:46.740 | I think this next question aligns with what you were saying,
00:52:51.260 | which is this feeling that people feel
00:52:55.340 | they have more to give and it not being utilized.
00:52:59.900 | So I'll read the question.
00:53:01.220 | How would you advise dealing
00:53:02.700 | with the sinking emotional feeling
00:53:04.900 | that by retiring all our hard-earned professional skills
00:53:08.820 | that are so helpful to so many people
00:53:11.460 | will be unused and wasted and all for naught?
00:53:15.340 | - Okay, let me tell you that that question
00:53:19.500 | could make me cry.
00:53:21.220 | And the reason it can make me cry,
00:53:23.140 | it's again, very astute because
00:53:26.900 | it's not really just an individual issue.
00:53:31.460 | It's a societal issue.
00:53:33.340 | We are, I feel like we are some of the best resources
00:53:38.340 | of our country.
00:53:39.980 | When you look at the literature about aging,
00:53:42.740 | yeah, our memories go down, that is in the literature,
00:53:46.940 | but our emotional stability goes up,
00:53:49.980 | our knowledge goes up, and our expertise goes up.
00:53:53.220 | It's clear in the literature.
00:53:55.380 | The literature shows older people in so many ways
00:53:59.660 | have more to contribute because of those factors,
00:54:04.140 | but we're not being utilized well.
00:54:06.060 | Even though if you look at the literature about work,
00:54:09.140 | over 50 is the only age category
00:54:11.820 | that seems to be increasing of people working more.
00:54:15.540 | It's that over 50s is the biggest age group.
00:54:19.300 | But anyway, we do have more to give.
00:54:24.300 | And it's finding how could you give
00:54:29.140 | what would be of interest to me?
00:54:32.300 | Like I said, that piece, the literature says people find,
00:54:37.060 | oh, there's a word they use
00:54:38.780 | about when you mentor younger people or teach younger people
00:54:44.580 | and younger could be just newer in your field.
00:54:47.900 | Generativity, that increases satisfaction.
00:54:52.460 | So we're finding, you'll ask people and they'll go,
00:54:55.580 | oh, I had a job my whole life, made money that,
00:54:58.140 | but now I'm teaching or now I'm working in a classroom.
00:55:01.500 | I've wanted to do this, I could never afford to do it.
00:55:04.860 | So are there things you wanna do
00:55:07.660 | either with your mind from your career or other ways?
00:55:12.660 | I would say, find a way to try doing them.
00:55:16.340 | And I'll tell you, for me personally,
00:55:18.620 | oh, I'm gonna tell you two little things
00:55:20.820 | and then I'll tell you about me.
00:55:23.980 | There's a big literature on gratitude.
00:55:27.980 | So people that are more resilient and are gratitude,
00:55:32.980 | have gratitude, do better.
00:55:35.980 | So if you could even in your day when things are funky
00:55:40.060 | or you're not sure what to do, if you focus on it,
00:55:42.420 | you'll probably feel better.
00:55:44.500 | And when you look at the literature about depression
00:55:47.180 | or wanting to feel better,
00:55:49.100 | and I know that, am I really a cognitive psychologist?
00:55:53.300 | So I'm a clinical psychologist,
00:55:55.940 | but focus on cognitive behavioral.
00:55:59.340 | Anyway, people's thoughts affect how they feel.
00:56:02.340 | The one thing you can do that can up your mood
00:56:07.340 | quicker than anything else
00:56:08.740 | is do a kindness to somebody else.
00:56:11.980 | That is not woo-woo literature.
00:56:14.060 | There's a body of literature that says,
00:56:16.900 | being kind to others, you end up feeling better.
00:56:20.300 | It can change race relationship.
00:56:22.580 | It can do all kinds of things.
00:56:24.460 | But anyway, I would encourage this person,
00:56:27.740 | think about it, you are valued.
00:56:29.660 | Even if other people don't quite get it now,
00:56:33.780 | try and figure what you could do.
00:56:36.340 | And when I retired, oh, I'll tell you this,
00:56:39.540 | it hasn't come up, but to me, actually,
00:56:41.780 | there's one thing that is consistent in the literature
00:56:45.060 | about whether you're gonna have
00:56:46.300 | a successful retirement or not,
00:56:48.700 | is whether you chose retirement or you got forced.
00:56:52.620 | If you were forced in retirement,
00:56:54.660 | you're gonna feel less in control.
00:56:56.580 | All these bad things happen.
00:56:58.140 | So if you can choose your retirement,
00:57:01.260 | when you're gonna do it, how you're gonna do it,
00:57:03.420 | it's much more likely you're gonna plan,
00:57:06.100 | and if it's gonna go well, you'll implement things.
00:57:08.980 | But for me, if I was in the literature,
00:57:12.420 | you would say I chose retirement.
00:57:14.780 | And I would say I was somewhere in between.
00:57:16.940 | I got tired of bad bosses.
00:57:18.580 | I had an amazing job, a career.
00:57:22.420 | Being a professor, being a clinical psychologist
00:57:25.220 | is so meaningful, it always was.
00:57:28.300 | And most of my career, I had bad bosses.
00:57:30.900 | As the literature says, most people do not like their bosses.
00:57:34.540 | And at some point, I just decided
00:57:37.100 | I wasn't doing this anymore.
00:57:38.300 | And I started a program at the end of my career.
00:57:41.220 | I'm presenting internationally.
00:57:42.940 | It's going as well as my career ever did.
00:57:45.820 | And I was just tired of this, having bad bosses.
00:57:50.140 | Anyway, so I left.
00:57:52.340 | I already knew about me because as a university person,
00:57:57.300 | you have nine months on, you have the break.
00:58:00.340 | You have, you know, like that.
00:58:01.620 | Whether it's a real break or not,
00:58:03.300 | whether you have to prepare, I had time off.
00:58:05.420 | And I already learned in the beginning.
00:58:07.740 | I couldn't do well with just all this time off.
00:58:10.300 | So I learned in advance,
00:58:13.100 | I better figure out what I'm gonna start doing.
00:58:15.420 | So some of the things that I learned by reading,
00:58:19.060 | fortunately, I had already learned and I did.
00:58:21.940 | So it took me personally about two years
00:58:25.900 | till I got into the real swing of loving retirement,
00:58:30.180 | meaning I kept experimenting.
00:58:32.540 | I thought, well, I'm psychology.
00:58:34.900 | I'm learning piano in adulthood.
00:58:37.660 | Maybe I could help musicians do well.
00:58:40.420 | So I started helping people with ukulele in Canada
00:58:44.020 | because that's how they're...
00:58:45.500 | Anyway, all these things I did, I'm getting used,
00:58:49.940 | but it's not working for me.
00:58:51.700 | It's okay.
00:58:53.340 | And I keep trying.
00:58:55.620 | But then it took about two years for me to say to myself,
00:58:58.700 | you know, I don't really know how people do retirement.
00:59:02.820 | I'm gonna read about it 'cause I'm a researcher.
00:59:05.180 | I know how to do that.
00:59:06.100 | I took about a year to just read
00:59:08.500 | about the retirement literature and aging
00:59:10.860 | and how do people do it.
00:59:12.020 | And then I start thinking,
00:59:13.900 | well, why would I just ask myself?
00:59:15.660 | I'm gonna ask the people at this OSHA lifelong learner,
00:59:19.060 | right, where there are 900 people.
00:59:20.580 | And I say, I'm gonna do these interviews.
00:59:22.700 | I'm gonna do focus groups.
00:59:25.140 | Within 20 minutes, over 200 people signed up.
00:59:28.340 | People wanna talk about their life or retirement.
00:59:31.940 | Well, then after I interviewed so many people,
00:59:34.380 | I thought this is such valuable information.
00:59:37.140 | I shouldn't just know this.
00:59:39.060 | Other people should know.
00:59:40.100 | Why shouldn't we enjoy this time of life?
00:59:43.780 | So it takes time.
00:59:47.180 | I would say, don't let people tell you
00:59:51.980 | in their direct or indirect ways you're not valuable.
00:59:55.380 | The literature tells you, I'm telling you,
00:59:57.860 | we are more valuable in many ways than others.
01:00:01.860 | Even the science and engineering.
01:00:04.580 | So, you know, I presented at Google,
01:00:06.100 | so I was up on all the tech stuff.
01:00:08.260 | People in science and engineering even are working longer.
01:00:14.700 | The median age is going up.
01:00:16.860 | One out of three people in tech are over 50.
01:00:19.500 | And that was as of 2010.
01:00:21.700 | I don't have, there isn't more current than that.
01:00:25.540 | So even though they get pressured to get out of tech
01:00:29.060 | 'cause people say your mind isn't as quick,
01:00:31.540 | or to get pressured to be managers
01:00:34.860 | whether they want to or not, they're staying in their jobs.
01:00:37.980 | So a lot of this is myth.
01:00:41.340 | And that person, I just really hope
01:00:44.100 | that you could figure out what you wanna do.
01:00:48.220 | Now, the thing about volunteering,
01:00:50.220 | the literature says volunteering
01:00:52.260 | makes people feel happier and meaningful.
01:00:55.660 | What the literature doesn't say,
01:00:57.260 | and my experience is interviewing hundreds of people,
01:01:00.180 | is that they wanna volunteer.
01:01:02.660 | And oftentimes they volunteer for the nonprofit
01:01:06.820 | they've always wanted to support
01:01:08.460 | and they get crappy positions.
01:01:11.140 | They don't get responsible positions volunteering
01:01:14.620 | like they had before.
01:01:15.900 | People don't take advantage of them.
01:01:18.620 | Don't quit, you know, ask other people,
01:01:21.460 | where are you getting good experiences?
01:01:24.220 | And they can tell you, well, I work for Red Cross,
01:01:27.620 | I'm working for the Seymour Center.
01:01:29.900 | They will train you, they will use your time.
01:01:33.460 | So I encourage that person, be persistent, persistence works.
01:01:38.460 | - That's great.
01:01:40.260 | Jill, I want you to hold that thought.
01:01:41.700 | I'm just gonna comment quickly on time remaining.
01:01:45.180 | So as we approach a quarter after the hour,
01:01:49.180 | roughly at a quarter after we'll turn it over to the group
01:01:52.140 | for questions from the chat or questions,
01:01:55.740 | verbal questions for those who wanna present.
01:01:58.140 | There are four more questions
01:01:59.340 | that I'm hoping we can get to in that time.
01:02:01.300 | So that'll roughly amount to two minutes
01:02:04.300 | or so per question, yep.
01:02:07.940 | - What I wanna say to you is I've been talking so much.
01:02:11.740 | I don't know, can your listeners take more?
01:02:13.860 | Like, can you do thumbs up, thumbs down and say,
01:02:17.180 | do you need a break?
01:02:18.820 | You know, it's a lot of information from her.
01:02:22.100 | Can we assess how it's going?
01:02:24.380 | - I think, let's assume that the audience is enjoying it
01:02:31.340 | and those who are at capacity can always voluntarily exit.
01:02:36.340 | But I think the number of participants
01:02:39.700 | speaks for the amount of interest.
01:02:41.340 | It's pretty, I think it's pretty high.
01:02:43.380 | I just wanna, despite my comment on time constraints,
01:02:47.140 | I'll comment two things came to mind, which is gratitude.
01:02:50.820 | As you said, the science clearly supports it.
01:02:53.300 | Gratitude journal is, you know,
01:02:55.220 | a very well-known way of people reinforcing
01:02:58.140 | what they feel appreciative of.
01:02:59.940 | And I think some of the research even says,
01:03:02.740 | you know, the neurons in your brain can,
01:03:06.620 | you can grow new neurons as a result of spending time
01:03:11.460 | consciously, actively thinking about gratitude.
01:03:13.740 | So that's one.
01:03:14.660 | And then folks who study stoicism,
01:03:16.820 | even superficially familiar with stoicism,
01:03:20.860 | gratitude is a big part of it.
01:03:22.660 | One exercise is imagine you lost your sight
01:03:26.060 | or you lost a loved one today,
01:03:28.860 | and then you wake up tomorrow and you can see again,
01:03:32.060 | or your loved one is right there.
01:03:33.700 | You can treat each day like a second life.
01:03:37.340 | So obviously we all take things for granted,
01:03:39.860 | but we needn't take things for granted
01:03:43.500 | as much as we do so often.
01:03:44.980 | So that's one.
01:03:46.820 | - This next question focuses on volunteering,
01:03:50.700 | but it almost flips on its head,
01:03:53.060 | the balancing of the desire to volunteer, which is here,
01:03:59.060 | but also wanting to possess one's time more carefully.
01:04:04.060 | So I'll read the question.
01:04:09.180 | It's pretty self-explanatory,
01:04:10.500 | but I wanted to frame it that the person
01:04:13.500 | is interested in volunteering,
01:04:15.020 | but values their time that's now their own,
01:04:18.900 | but is still interested in volunteering,
01:04:20.660 | how to navigate that conflict.
01:04:22.860 | So again, I'll read it.
01:04:24.380 | I worked long hours at my job and always expected
01:04:27.660 | I'd jump into volunteering when I retired.
01:04:30.380 | I've been retired for six weeks,
01:04:32.460 | but haven't agreed to any volunteer work yet,
01:04:35.140 | even though I feel strongly about some causes.
01:04:38.140 | Finally owning all my time has been intoxicating,
01:04:41.260 | and I feel miserly about donating any.
01:04:44.340 | Looking for insights about how to volunteer
01:04:46.780 | without feeling resentful.
01:04:48.660 | And again, Jill, I'll say roughly,
01:04:51.180 | we're gonna aim for turning it over to the group
01:04:53.860 | in about five minutes.
01:04:55.100 | And we have three questions left
01:04:56.580 | that I think you have a lot to offer on.
01:04:58.540 | So a brief answer for this would allow more coverage.
01:05:03.540 | - This is a little hard brief,
01:05:07.900 | but I wanna congratulate that person.
01:05:10.300 | The word intoxicating, that it is so great.
01:05:13.700 | I find too many people say yes before they even retired.
01:05:18.700 | They're on 20 million boards or they're doing this,
01:05:22.740 | their friends asking them, and then they regret it.
01:05:25.780 | They're as busy as they were,
01:05:27.860 | and it's not even more meaningful.
01:05:30.300 | They just yes to everything.
01:05:32.300 | So in some ways I think it's good to yes,
01:05:34.980 | but to take time and think and relish,
01:05:38.900 | to learn to reflect, to me, that's the essence.
01:05:42.980 | It's a process.
01:05:44.660 | So that you are enjoying this for now is great.
01:05:48.700 | And I don't know if this person watched Brandon
01:05:51.620 | when you interviewed Brandon,
01:05:52.900 | but he was saying when you get involved in things,
01:05:55.820 | that was his name, right?
01:05:56.900 | Brandon. - Yeah, that's right.
01:05:59.020 | - Try things that are low commitment, low cost.
01:06:03.420 | And I thought those were good words.
01:06:05.300 | So if you could try things where they say,
01:06:09.300 | you could just do this once a month,
01:06:12.540 | or you could try this to kind of transition in,
01:06:17.540 | and then you might find that's intoxicating or wow,
01:06:22.020 | now my mind is really fulfilled.
01:06:24.060 | Anyway, if you could try things
01:06:26.380 | where they're willing to train you
01:06:28.540 | and you can take small commitments at a time,
01:06:33.060 | that's what I would encourage you to do, not jump in.
01:06:36.540 | Okay, it's a year.
01:06:37.740 | Maybe down the road you'll want that,
01:06:40.500 | but for now, learning about yourself
01:06:44.620 | and trying to figure this out,
01:06:46.260 | it's also more likely that you won't go back to work.
01:06:49.780 | And by the way, of people that do fully retire,
01:06:53.900 | 30% of them go back after six years.
01:06:58.780 | They don't know how to do other things.
01:07:01.780 | And what I'm hearing is this person is saying,
01:07:05.380 | I'm enjoying it, what else?
01:07:07.660 | So think about what else,
01:07:09.420 | but I am not encouraging you to rush.
01:07:12.780 | - Well, it's very practical.
01:07:15.300 | It's very actionable.
01:07:16.820 | Take bite-size approaches.
01:07:19.700 | And that probably worked in a lot of people's
01:07:24.580 | day-to-day lives pre-retirement.
01:07:26.300 | So it shouldn't be a foreign concept,
01:07:28.460 | I think, for a lot of people.
01:07:30.420 | I mentioned, hold that thought earlier.
01:07:32.180 | So I mentioned that because it ties
01:07:34.780 | into this next question perfectly.
01:07:36.500 | When you were commenting on misalignment
01:07:38.940 | of someone's capacity or capability
01:07:41.660 | versus the role they're given
01:07:43.420 | at a not-for-profit or other volunteer role.
01:07:45.980 | So this question is, what is the best way
01:07:48.420 | to match my skills and interests
01:07:51.020 | with a not-for-profit that can use them?
01:07:53.500 | - I feel like I need help from the audience.
01:07:58.700 | What I can tell you from,
01:08:00.900 | there isn't a body of literature for that.
01:08:03.460 | There's literature on the best way
01:08:07.180 | to use your time is by finding your highest skills
01:08:12.180 | and what you like doing
01:08:13.820 | so that you can go to your own strengths.
01:08:17.020 | So I would say, do that,
01:08:18.580 | and then start talking to other people.
01:08:20.580 | This is what I'm thinking.
01:08:21.820 | I like, do you know about retirement?
01:08:24.380 | The people that have told me they had the best retirement,
01:08:27.900 | other people told them, oh, I am working here.
01:08:31.420 | I've retired, and it's great.
01:08:33.580 | Or you could fumble like I did.
01:08:36.660 | Try this, try that.
01:08:37.860 | And then I have created my own retirement
01:08:40.540 | by starting the retirement research.
01:08:44.860 | Then I created, I got convinced to do a website.
01:08:49.060 | Put it out.
01:08:49.900 | Don't just go scholarly.
01:08:52.220 | Two people read your scholarly stuff.
01:08:54.180 | Put it general.
01:08:55.020 | So I got a website and put my information
01:08:58.060 | because I wanted regular people to hear.
01:09:00.140 | Well, then people start contacting me.
01:09:02.540 | Oh, can you this?
01:09:04.020 | Would you that?
01:09:05.740 | So I didn't want to sell myself.
01:09:10.660 | It unfolded, but I like reading
01:09:13.900 | so I can know I need to learn more about a topic
01:09:18.900 | and can involve my mind that way.
01:09:22.620 | With the nonprofits,
01:09:25.420 | I don't know if there's a list in your community of them.
01:09:30.340 | There probably is a list,
01:09:37.620 | but it doesn't mean you're gonna get a good position.
01:09:40.380 | - I think your suggestion of asking folks
01:09:45.300 | that you know who may know of groups or organizations
01:09:49.180 | or other people where they're content,
01:09:51.340 | it sounds like, you know how people say referrals
01:09:54.300 | are so much more effective
01:09:56.300 | or increase the probability of an appropriate match.
01:10:00.940 | That sounds like a natural.
01:10:02.620 | That suggestion of yours sounded great.
01:10:04.900 | I'm gonna combine the next two questions, Jill,
01:10:07.100 | and then just for folks to give a sense of timing,
01:10:12.100 | we'll take a break following Jill's response
01:10:15.780 | to these two questions,
01:10:17.340 | and then Carol will turn it over to Miriam and Alan
01:10:21.620 | for questions from the chat.
01:10:23.300 | So that whole piece may take say five minutes or so
01:10:27.820 | if that works for folks.
01:10:29.180 | So Jill, the last two questions,
01:10:33.780 | and again, I'm combining them,
01:10:35.460 | seem to me a great summary
01:10:38.100 | of a lot of what you've been talking about
01:10:40.580 | and kind of culminates a lot of people's interest
01:10:44.340 | in what to do with all this information.
01:10:46.940 | So I'll read the questions as they're presented.
01:10:50.140 | From your experience with patients,
01:10:52.540 | what things in a retired person's life
01:10:54.980 | tend to bring the most happiness?
01:10:56.980 | That's question one.
01:10:58.380 | And then two, I think we hear this a lot.
01:11:00.820 | People are kind of at a loss
01:11:03.660 | in a way to answer this when asked,
01:11:05.780 | but how do you spend your day?
01:11:08.180 | I retired three weeks ago
01:11:09.820 | and would love to know how others spend time
01:11:12.580 | during retirement.
01:11:14.020 | So those are the last two.
01:11:14.940 | Jill, I wanna thank you for your time and insights
01:11:17.700 | and just sharing everything you do, your expertise
01:11:20.300 | and how well you share it so approachably and personably.
01:11:23.420 | So back to you.
01:11:24.860 | - Do you want me, in terms of spending a day,
01:11:28.060 | how I spend a day,
01:11:29.980 | or are we gonna open it to the audience?
01:11:32.980 | How do people spend a day?
01:11:35.060 | - Let's start with you,
01:11:37.300 | but not necessarily you personally,
01:11:39.220 | in your research and interviews,
01:11:42.300 | how do people spend their day?
01:11:43.820 | I think it might get chaotic
01:11:45.460 | if we turn it over to the audience.
01:11:48.420 | - Well, at some point I'd like that chaos
01:11:51.460 | because then you're gonna learn from each other what to do.
01:11:55.180 | But the happiness, I think,
01:11:58.260 | just to review,
01:12:02.660 | the theory says by being with other people,
01:12:06.380 | by exercising, having purpose,
01:12:10.300 | and connections, also internet connections
01:12:15.700 | because you wanna stay digitally attached
01:12:19.020 | or you can learn older people that are attached
01:12:22.460 | or that use the internet are happier
01:12:26.220 | because of what we do with it.
01:12:28.460 | Keep reflecting, take time to think.
01:12:37.540 | I haven't done this before.
01:12:40.420 | What's working, what's not?
01:12:41.780 | Or if you don't even know how to reflect,
01:12:43.300 | which many people don't, what's she talking about?
01:12:46.260 | Ask me or ask someone else.
01:12:48.300 | How have you figured this out?
01:12:50.300 | And in terms of how people spend a day,
01:12:53.580 | it hasn't been my research or in the research typical,
01:12:57.980 | but as Arthur said, he does not like feeling adrift.
01:13:02.980 | And many of us have had such scheduled lives
01:13:08.700 | that I would say some degree of schedule is a good thing.
01:13:13.700 | Flexibility is good.
01:13:15.380 | So you might not be like me.
01:13:17.420 | I like to know I'm gonna be taking a class
01:13:20.380 | or I like to know waking up and going to the beach
01:13:23.460 | for a walk.
01:13:24.300 | I like to exercise, walk right away and see the ocean.
01:13:27.140 | I didn't grow up by the ocean.
01:13:28.620 | It's amazing.
01:13:29.980 | And when I worked, I just...
01:13:31.900 | So I know the things that matter to me.
01:13:35.180 | So I have a semi-structured life that changes
01:13:40.180 | and the people that I see that do best,
01:13:43.220 | even if they say they don't want structure,
01:13:46.020 | they are picking times to meet their friends
01:13:49.580 | or picking time to whatever it is,
01:13:52.060 | to go to the gym, to this and that.
01:13:54.100 | And of course things got messed up during COVID,
01:13:56.540 | but I think it is not a bad idea
01:14:00.860 | to have some degree of schedule.
01:14:03.180 | And of course we have the luxury of flexibility.
01:14:05.860 | You don't like it, you can change it.
01:14:08.060 | But most people don't like waking up to,
01:14:10.980 | oh no, what am I gonna do?
01:14:13.460 | It's oppressive.
01:14:15.820 | It's not, okay, in the beginning it's intoxicating,
01:14:19.420 | but then it's like, what about today?
01:14:22.580 | So if you know you like seeing your friends once a week,
01:14:25.900 | don't wait till they're too busy or once or whatever.
01:14:29.740 | Try and try these things out.
01:14:32.300 | Maybe you never saw your friends once a week.
01:14:35.060 | Well, maybe you try something
01:14:36.940 | or you say, can we exercise together?
01:14:38.780 | Then you're doing two things at once.
01:14:40.180 | You're walking and you're...
01:14:41.580 | That's, you know, the other, the bad thing is,
01:14:48.140 | well, first of all, usually people
01:14:51.740 | in the beginning of retirement, travel goes up.
01:14:54.820 | You've waited for travel and you're gonna see
01:14:59.260 | there's a word like you're, you get tired.
01:15:04.260 | Well, I forget that word,
01:15:06.460 | but you get tired of these things if you do it too much.
01:15:09.940 | If you eat out too much, if you travel too much,
01:15:13.020 | all of a sudden it's like, eh, that's what you're doing.
01:15:15.500 | You don't wanna do too much of it.
01:15:17.820 | But people like traveling.
01:15:19.660 | And of course, like with COVID, you can't.
01:15:22.540 | Well, you can or you can't, I'm not.
01:15:25.420 | But that's usually in the beginning of retirement.
01:15:28.620 | That goes way up and spending on it.
01:15:31.180 | And what makes people happy in terms of spending is leisure.
01:15:36.180 | If you spend it on your leisure,
01:15:38.460 | whether it's walking somewhere or doing something,
01:15:41.820 | having an adventure, that kind of thing,
01:15:43.980 | and being with people.
01:15:45.660 | Those two things together make it more likely.
01:15:49.860 | So I would suggest figure out a way
01:15:52.460 | to have people in your life and in your day,
01:15:56.180 | like Leslie picked elements of exercise, of creativity,
01:16:01.180 | of giving back to others, maybe time for gratitude.
01:16:06.300 | Any of these things, maybe you wanted to meditate.
01:16:10.500 | If they sound good, maybe you'll gear it towards planned,
01:16:14.740 | or maybe you'll say these things are things
01:16:16.700 | I wish I would have done.
01:16:18.060 | I'm gonna start trying them out.
01:16:19.980 | - Excellent.
01:16:22.580 | That is invaluable advice.
01:16:24.940 | And we thank you and Jill,
01:16:26.500 | the way you said having people in your life,
01:16:28.340 | we're grateful to have you in the lives
01:16:31.260 | of the Boglehead community.
01:16:32.780 | I'll just, I wanna address your comment
01:16:34.420 | about enjoying the chaos of having,
01:16:37.260 | hearing from the community and how they spend their day.
01:16:39.780 | So we can try to organize a separate call
01:16:44.780 | where there's more of an open forum,
01:16:47.580 | participatory and interactive for people to do exactly that
01:16:51.140 | for how they spend their days in retirement.
01:16:54.180 | So we can try to develop that idea.
01:16:57.260 | With that, Jill, I wanna thank you again.
01:17:00.100 | If you wanna take a quick break, feel free,
01:17:02.980 | and I will turn it over to Carol
01:17:05.740 | for a recap of the rest of this meeting.
01:17:09.420 | And thanks to all for making this happen.
01:17:11.620 | - Okay, I'll be right back, thanks.
01:17:13.340 | - Thank you very much, Jill.
01:17:14.980 | Right, first I'm gonna turn off.
01:17:16.460 | Go ahead, you can take a break.
01:17:17.740 | I'm gonna turn off the spotlight view.
01:17:21.380 | And then if the audience wants to get your gallery view back
01:17:26.380 | where you see little squares for everybody,
01:17:28.900 | just click on view in the upper right-hand corner
01:17:31.700 | and click on gallery, and you'll get your gallery view back.
01:17:35.020 | So while we're taking a little break,
01:17:38.900 | I'm gonna talk about feedback.
01:17:41.900 | Just in general, the Boglehead's Life Stages groups,
01:17:45.020 | we would love to get your feedback
01:17:47.060 | on either specific things on this presentation
01:17:51.060 | as far as the format and the content,
01:17:53.540 | or just in general, what types of topics
01:17:56.940 | would you like to see as meetings in the future?
01:17:59.700 | Feel free to give any kind of critical,
01:18:04.420 | we don't want just positive feedback.
01:18:06.500 | We would appreciate either just candid feedback
01:18:10.460 | about, like I said, the content or the format
01:18:14.060 | of either this presentation or some past ones
01:18:16.260 | or what you'd like to see in the future.
01:18:18.420 | And the way you can do that,
01:18:19.620 | you can go ahead and put it right in the chat.
01:18:22.180 | As we said, after we save the chat,
01:18:25.300 | we're gonna remove the name,
01:18:26.420 | so your names won't be part of the record.
01:18:28.460 | I'm gonna post a little link in the chat,
01:18:34.140 | and this is the link to what we call the master thread
01:18:38.140 | for the pre-retirement, early retirement group,
01:18:42.980 | which is one of the groups that hosted this meeting.
01:18:45.140 | If you go to that master thread,
01:18:48.180 | the first person that posted that, who's me,
01:18:51.180 | it's DFW Bogleheads,
01:18:52.980 | you can send a private Bogleheads message,
01:18:56.020 | I think they call them PMs,
01:18:58.180 | to give that feedback if we'd rather do it privately.
01:19:01.260 | So that's a couple of ways that you can give us feedback.
01:19:05.020 | Let's see.
01:19:07.540 | And I guess we can, we're still recording.
01:19:10.980 | I guess, Jim, should we just keep recording
01:19:13.540 | until the point where we have a raised hand person,
01:19:16.900 | and then we'll stop at that point?
01:19:18.340 | Or we can stop right now, either way.
01:19:20.260 | - We can keep going.
01:19:21.100 | Some people have commented
01:19:22.180 | they like the questions on the video.
01:19:24.060 | - Okay, so let's, we can keep it,
01:19:26.340 | but as soon as we have a person that has the raised hand,
01:19:29.180 | at that point, we start taking raised hand questions,
01:19:31.300 | then we'll stop.
01:19:32.660 | - I agree.
01:19:35.220 | - Okay, okay.
01:19:36.780 | So let me go ahead and go over a little bit
01:19:39.780 | about the format of what we're gonna do for the questions.
01:19:43.020 | We do have a list of not all of the questions.
01:19:45.500 | We did cover maybe about half of the questions
01:19:47.580 | that were entered pre-submitted through the RSVP forms
01:19:50.540 | were directly asked through the interview process.
01:19:54.180 | We do have quite a few of those left
01:19:55.860 | that we could ask of Jill.
01:19:57.700 | And then also, there weren't very many.
01:20:00.900 | There were just a couple questions asked in the chat window.
01:20:05.900 | Let's see, what else?
01:20:07.980 | Oh, and then thirdly, you're very welcome
01:20:10.580 | to do your Zoom raised hand,
01:20:13.260 | and everybody knows how to do that.
01:20:14.780 | At the very bottom of your screen,
01:20:16.100 | there's a little raised hand.
01:20:16.980 | I can just click on that.
01:20:19.380 | And then I will call on you
01:20:21.100 | in the order that you raised your hand,
01:20:22.860 | and you could appear on camera and ask Jill the questions.
01:20:26.980 | So feel free to go ahead and do that
01:20:29.580 | while we're gearing up our questions.
01:20:32.300 | Miriam, were there any questions in the chat?
01:20:36.220 | - Yes, there were.
01:20:37.940 | There were a few.
01:20:38.900 | And by the way, Jill, that was a wonderful presentation.
01:20:42.940 | It was absolutely delightful to listen to you.
01:20:45.900 | And in the chat, everybody said,
01:20:47.820 | "Just keep going, keep going."
01:20:49.500 | - Can I just say two things before more questions come?
01:20:55.460 | Would that be okay with you?
01:20:57.780 | - Yes, yes.
01:20:59.700 | - First of all, maybe people are gonna leave,
01:21:03.060 | and I wanna make sure they know
01:21:04.660 | that you're gonna give them my email.
01:21:06.940 | So if they have questions, that they can contact me.
01:21:12.100 | And the other thing, when I was saying,
01:21:14.580 | I like the idea of chaos so we can learn from each other.
01:21:17.620 | That's not exactly true.
01:21:19.220 | When I do classes or seminars on Zoom,
01:21:23.220 | I think 10 to 12 people are best.
01:21:25.900 | So if we wanna pilot anything
01:21:28.220 | where people wanna talk among themselves
01:21:31.060 | and ask these real questions of each other
01:21:33.860 | and have me facilitate it and give them prep work
01:21:37.060 | like TED Talks or reading,
01:21:39.740 | I think they should do to prepare.
01:21:42.700 | I would rather it be like that
01:21:45.340 | 'cause you'll learn more from each other.
01:21:47.620 | Okay, thanks.
01:21:48.460 | Your turn.
01:21:49.500 | Thank you for humoring me.
01:21:52.380 | - Yeah, thank you.
01:21:53.300 | One question is, how well do people who never retire,
01:21:59.500 | who work until the end intentionally,
01:22:04.980 | how, I believe the question was for intentionally,
01:22:08.460 | they do not retire, they keep working.
01:22:11.500 | How well do they do?
01:22:13.300 | - I have to look it up.
01:22:19.940 | I don't know the literature except that I know
01:22:23.300 | that more and more people continue to work.
01:22:27.500 | So some people continue to work because they love their work.
01:22:32.180 | Some people continue to work because they need the money.
01:22:36.140 | And some people don't know what else to do.
01:22:38.540 | They can't find purpose.
01:22:40.420 | So they go back to work because they're pretty miserable
01:22:44.780 | and can't find their time.
01:22:47.100 | So I don't have, could that person say more
01:22:52.100 | like what their concerns are about,
01:22:55.980 | like, do they wanna just keep working
01:22:59.540 | and they think they shouldn't?
01:23:01.220 | Or what will they miss out on?
01:23:04.620 | Can they give me some more dimensions to this question?
01:23:08.900 | I don't have a research answer.
01:23:11.820 | - Yes, we'll wait and see if they enter
01:23:15.900 | any more information into the chat.
01:23:17.420 | At that time, we can revisit the question.
01:23:20.620 | Alan, were there any more in the chat?
01:23:23.340 | - I have one myself.
01:23:24.580 | I'm curious, we know that Scandinavian countries
01:23:27.340 | and citizens tend to have the highest happiness quotient.
01:23:30.660 | Is that the same for their retirees?
01:23:32.580 | Those countries that have a more robust social system
01:23:36.340 | and support, are their retirees more successful
01:23:39.060 | and happier as well when they're out of the workforce?
01:23:41.780 | - Oh boy, I think I once knew this.
01:23:46.740 | And I should note from the COVID literature
01:23:51.100 | because there's this world happiness report
01:23:55.300 | that comes out every year.
01:23:56.620 | It's like a hundred pages long.
01:23:58.140 | And this one was on the 2021.
01:24:01.820 | So it was during COVID and people in certain countries
01:24:05.020 | were doing better.
01:24:06.580 | So I wish I knew the answer and I don't.
01:24:09.940 | I would guess, yes, because of the social services
01:24:14.860 | and the way people value each other and the time.
01:24:19.620 | So I would guess, yes, I don't have a good answer.
01:24:22.900 | - There's another one, Miriam from Ed.
01:24:29.860 | - Is there another one?
01:24:31.740 | - No.
01:24:32.580 | - One question is on moving and downsizing when you retire.
01:24:38.580 | And you mentioned about space being a really big thing.
01:24:45.460 | And what have you read about moving and downsizing
01:24:51.060 | to small spaces after you've had larger homes
01:25:00.460 | and you've raised your families and everything.
01:25:02.940 | What is going on when they retire
01:25:05.420 | and then they immediately move and they downsize
01:25:09.340 | and how does it affect them
01:25:10.660 | in the rest of their retirement?
01:25:12.900 | - Wow, another really good question.
01:25:18.500 | And it's not in the literature
01:25:20.140 | because I try to review everything,
01:25:22.380 | but I will tell you what I know
01:25:24.100 | from the people I've interviewed.
01:25:26.380 | From the people I've interviewed, they say,
01:25:29.220 | if you're gonna move somewhere,
01:25:31.060 | a lot of people move to be near their children
01:25:32.940 | or the warm weather
01:25:33.940 | or something they're interested in science.
01:25:36.660 | So a lot of people come to Santa Cruz,
01:25:38.380 | now they can, we're big on sciences here.
01:25:41.860 | They recommend go somewhere and rent first
01:25:46.860 | because you don't know if you're gonna like that area.
01:25:51.060 | You don't know within an area
01:25:52.900 | where you're gonna wanna be.
01:25:55.100 | So if you could possibly keep your home
01:25:59.860 | while you do this or experiment that way,
01:26:04.140 | the people that did that told me
01:26:06.300 | it worked better than their friends.
01:26:08.540 | Their friends got stuck.
01:26:10.260 | They thought they were gonna like it.
01:26:12.620 | It's like you take a job,
01:26:13.740 | you don't know for X amount of time
01:26:15.420 | are you gonna like the people you work with and stuff.
01:26:17.620 | So I would say, again, the more research you do about it
01:26:22.300 | and whether people are happy or not,
01:26:25.380 | people are doing it, they downsize.
01:26:27.860 | Their houses become oppressive.
01:26:30.740 | It becomes too hard in where I live in Santa Cruz.
01:26:35.660 | First of all, housing, I grew up really poor.
01:26:38.780 | So it's amazing that I ever retired, let alone here,
01:26:42.220 | but I grew up poor.
01:26:43.540 | I learned to do what you all are doing on my own
01:26:46.460 | and I'm a female and I'm 71, but in Santa Cruz now.
01:26:51.460 | So the area around here,
01:26:53.660 | it's very hard to get a house that's one story.
01:26:58.660 | People are moving, wanna move here
01:27:02.500 | and they can't buy one stories.
01:27:04.860 | It's way more money because we need one stories
01:27:09.700 | maybe eventually rather than two stories.
01:27:13.300 | 'Cause at some point, maybe you can't do steps.
01:27:15.900 | So why buy something that big with steps
01:27:19.980 | if eventually it might not work for you?
01:27:23.140 | So that's a great question.
01:27:26.140 | And I don't know, but people do it.
01:27:30.140 | Not everybody, but my experience is
01:27:33.740 | many of the people I interviewed do it.
01:27:36.660 | And I'll tell you, there's something in Santa Cruz
01:27:39.300 | that I had a terrible bias and I was very wrong.
01:27:42.820 | We have a lot of mobile home parks
01:27:45.900 | and I guess I only knew about them from movies or something
01:27:49.220 | that they were funky, they're not.
01:27:52.180 | They, I see mobile home parks here that are absolutely
01:27:56.260 | lovely and can be supportive and can be safe.
01:28:00.140 | So I would say as much as you can question your thinking,
01:28:05.140 | be open, but I don't have a,
01:28:08.420 | you're giving me things to go research.
01:28:11.780 | Thank you.
01:28:12.620 | - Alan, did you have any other questions from the chat?
01:28:17.220 | - Yes, there's one actually from Jim, I believe.
01:28:20.780 | Any evidence that the over 55 communities
01:28:23.660 | have a better retirement experience?
01:28:25.820 | - I read this stuff and I don't have an answer.
01:28:32.420 | I mean, I don't have a research answer.
01:28:34.700 | I know people that I know,
01:28:38.620 | like I even started a COVID connection group,
01:28:42.100 | a connection community because the University of Michigan
01:28:44.660 | got me to do that during COVID.
01:28:47.060 | They hired me to start working with faculty.
01:28:49.540 | You know how one day you're in the classroom
01:28:51.740 | and the next day nobody's there 'cause of COVID.
01:28:55.460 | They hired me to start working with faculty and staff
01:28:58.460 | and the ZAs, the TAs.
01:29:01.140 | But anyway, so I did one for my community here.
01:29:04.380 | I figured I owed it to my community and it's been profound.
01:29:08.180 | It was supposed to be three sessions
01:29:10.220 | and now they won't stop.
01:29:12.340 | So we've continued.
01:29:14.020 | Some of them live in those over 55s and didn't used to
01:29:19.020 | and they love it.
01:29:20.220 | They feel safe.
01:29:22.020 | And having a good environment is also a predictor
01:29:26.060 | of how healthy you're gonna be and enjoy your life.
01:29:28.460 | If you have an environment where,
01:29:30.980 | they use this one dumb test where, this is one test.
01:29:35.580 | If you thought you lost your wallet
01:29:38.180 | and somebody is gonna return it to you,
01:29:40.700 | do you feel safe in your environment?
01:29:43.820 | But anyway, I live in a place where you can walk safely.
01:29:48.340 | It's by the ocean.
01:29:49.460 | It's lovely.
01:29:50.300 | Environment affects how you feel.
01:29:53.100 | You can tell by people's zip code and stuff.
01:29:56.020 | So the over 50s that I've heard experience from feel safe
01:30:01.020 | and it's quiet.
01:30:05.180 | That's very different than the people during COVID
01:30:07.940 | that weren't assisted living.
01:30:09.780 | That was one of the worst experience for everybody
01:30:12.660 | in the lockdown.
01:30:13.900 | If you look at the data and depression,
01:30:16.300 | it's been very rough for people in those kinds of situations
01:30:21.500 | even though before they liked it.
01:30:24.260 | During COVID, it's been much harder.
01:30:26.940 | - Let me throw in.
01:30:29.140 | I just had dinner this evening with friends of ours,
01:30:31.060 | longtime friends that just moved from our area
01:30:34.180 | to a 55 plus community about six months ago
01:30:38.180 | and they've never been happier.
01:30:40.020 | Much more involved and doing new activities
01:30:42.420 | that they never thought they would be doing
01:30:43.420 | and they absolutely love it.
01:30:45.580 | - And for the person that was asking about friendship
01:30:48.060 | or a widow, there are a community of people
01:30:51.700 | that with activities, you can maybe get to know
01:30:55.700 | and you can feel safer.
01:30:57.820 | When people are older, depending on the people,
01:31:00.740 | different things happen.
01:31:02.140 | - I'm sorry, after you, Carol.
01:31:07.380 | - Oh, I was just gonna remind the audience
01:31:09.780 | that you're welcome to use the,
01:31:11.620 | if you wanna ask a question,
01:31:13.060 | if you don't mind asking a question on camera,
01:31:14.700 | you can raise your hand.
01:31:16.540 | Otherwise, we'll continue.
01:31:17.540 | I do have a few questions I wanna ask
01:31:19.740 | from the, that were originally submitted with the RSVP
01:31:22.180 | but we are gonna prioritize at this point
01:31:24.620 | any raised hand questions.
01:31:26.260 | But go ahead, Gary, what we can say.
01:31:27.980 | - So thanks, Carol.
01:31:29.500 | Three things, one point, Jill,
01:31:32.220 | since you were asking for real-time feedback,
01:31:34.740 | throughout the chat, people are saying
01:31:36.300 | they appreciate the non-financial content of this meeting.
01:31:40.060 | So it's definitely welcome.
01:31:41.420 | And we've spoken about having a subsequent meeting with you
01:31:45.020 | if you're agreeable, and not just the highly interactive,
01:31:49.300 | you know, how people spend their time,
01:31:50.780 | but where you can talk about additional things
01:31:53.900 | that weren't covered here.
01:31:55.180 | So that's one.
01:31:56.020 | Two remaining, one is a question that I'll ask you
01:31:59.500 | and I wanted to cover.
01:32:00.740 | Ed has a question in the chat.
01:32:02.660 | How do you contend with a sudden change
01:32:05.140 | in your retirement plans,
01:32:06.980 | like parents who are suffering from dementia?
01:32:09.540 | So that's one.
01:32:10.380 | And then my own question, Jill, if you wouldn't mind,
01:32:13.300 | you mentioned growing up, your childhood,
01:32:17.700 | you know, you commented on your childhood.
01:32:19.620 | If you're comfortable, to what extent you can share
01:32:22.700 | how was growing up with your family,
01:32:24.540 | your journey to where you are now,
01:32:26.420 | what led you to do your research
01:32:27.860 | and how you came to specialize
01:32:31.180 | on this topic that you're sharing?
01:32:33.260 | - Okay.
01:32:36.820 | My childhood, if we talk about,
01:32:39.820 | I had a difficult childhood.
01:32:42.780 | So with my nuclear family was difficult emotionally
01:32:45.860 | if somebody wants to know about that.
01:32:47.500 | But what I think is important for this is
01:32:51.100 | I grew up poor.
01:32:55.500 | My parents graduated eighth grade and 12th grade.
01:32:59.700 | How I knew to go to get a PhD and pursue my career,
01:33:05.820 | I studied that.
01:33:07.420 | That became my dissertation.
01:33:09.580 | What made it more likely
01:33:11.620 | that women could make it as professionals.
01:33:14.100 | When I have questions, I study.
01:33:16.980 | And I think growing up poor,
01:33:20.820 | one of the things in the literature
01:33:22.500 | was people that had more employment experiences
01:33:26.260 | when they were young tended for women
01:33:29.860 | to be professionals more so.
01:33:32.980 | And there were a lot of other factors,
01:33:35.620 | but my childhood, my dad died when I was 10.
01:33:38.300 | My dad was a gambler, blah, blah, these hard things.
01:33:41.580 | I had to earn money.
01:33:45.300 | So from eight or 10,
01:33:46.940 | I was earning money from babysitting to other things
01:33:50.900 | and then taking care of my mom and stuff.
01:33:53.380 | So that helped me see I'm going to be working.
01:33:57.940 | I want to figure out how can I work
01:34:01.100 | in a way that I'm going to enjoy my life and get meaning.
01:34:04.380 | So it wasn't always the best at happy.
01:34:06.860 | I could read about happy while other people did it,
01:34:09.900 | but somehow I'm good at meaningful
01:34:12.340 | and figuring out what would work.
01:34:15.180 | But also I was a woman, a girl,
01:34:17.980 | and I had to learn about investing myself.
01:34:23.940 | I didn't have a family that was going to tell,
01:34:26.940 | my nuclear family wasn't good at it.
01:34:30.540 | And I'm a very persistent person.
01:34:33.620 | And I learn and I ask other people and I find out,
01:34:37.660 | oh, you're doing it well.
01:34:39.820 | What have you invested?
01:34:40.900 | Then I read and I study.
01:34:43.260 | So I managed to go from nothing,
01:34:47.460 | taking care of my mother to I am retired in California.
01:34:51.460 | And that is one of the things that correlates
01:34:54.020 | with people being happier,
01:34:55.380 | even though I don't usually talk about the financial part.
01:34:58.860 | I have a pension.
01:35:00.220 | I think that's the appropriate word
01:35:02.140 | from working the university for 30 years.
01:35:05.820 | I get money every month.
01:35:09.060 | That security feeling in control adds to happiness,
01:35:14.060 | but it's a dinosaur.
01:35:17.060 | Many people don't have that anymore.
01:35:20.180 | But I was a big saver.
01:35:22.980 | I worked maybe too hard, maybe not 'cause I'm here,
01:35:26.420 | but I did all the diverse, I bought other properties.
01:35:30.580 | I did rental as well as I worked at the university
01:35:34.140 | and I had a private practice.
01:35:36.300 | I worked too much or did I?
01:35:38.900 | I don't know, I'm here now.
01:35:40.220 | I retired at 57, I'm 71.
01:35:43.340 | But that tells you a little bit about my childhood.
01:35:47.060 | And the dementia thing just makes me kind of sick.
01:35:50.340 | I've had it in my family.
01:35:53.900 | I took care of my brother from afar.
01:35:57.340 | If anyone ever needs to know about this,
01:35:59.620 | I hope you don't, but I even had to deal
01:36:02.900 | with getting him a guardian, a legal guardian
01:36:06.700 | and going to lawyers,
01:36:08.220 | a person that had never been to lawyers.
01:36:10.380 | It's another state.
01:36:13.100 | It was so not fun, but I feel like I gifted my brother.
01:36:17.780 | He got to stay in his home.
01:36:19.900 | And if I wouldn't have fought the courts,
01:36:22.940 | he lost his executive functioning, but didn't know it.
01:36:26.980 | He was very good at finances.
01:36:29.220 | He never would have bounced a check
01:36:30.900 | and all of a sudden he's not paying his mortgage and stuff.
01:36:34.820 | So I stepped in and it was very hard.
01:36:37.540 | I'm living afar.
01:36:38.420 | I had no experience with this and I had to do it.
01:36:42.060 | I just had to.
01:36:43.380 | And if you need to learn about that,
01:36:45.620 | ask me before you have to get into that situation
01:36:49.100 | 'cause so many people take advantage of old people
01:36:52.380 | or they would have taken all his money
01:36:55.260 | and put him in a home.
01:36:57.380 | Anyway, this stuff about dementia.
01:36:59.540 | So I'm 71 and all my friends and I,
01:37:03.980 | our memories aren't that good.
01:37:07.020 | And then you go, is this my memory isn't that good
01:37:09.500 | or my memory isn't that good.
01:37:11.780 | So we're reading, we're learning.
01:37:13.980 | And I'm gonna say something incredibly heavy,
01:37:17.660 | but real that I wish people would think about.
01:37:21.220 | Think about,
01:37:26.460 | it's your life.
01:37:27.420 | How do you want to end it?
01:37:29.340 | And what I'm saying is like in that group that I told you,
01:37:32.420 | there were seven women ages 60 to 87
01:37:36.740 | through this COVID experience.
01:37:38.420 | One person during COVID got cancer,
01:37:42.940 | had all the best treatments at Stanford and nothing worked.
01:37:47.380 | And she had a great relationship with her husband
01:37:50.900 | and her doctors and hospice and chose in my state,
01:37:54.740 | you can choose to end your life
01:37:58.380 | if you have six months less than six months to live.
01:38:02.860 | And if you can take the potion yourself,
01:38:07.860 | somebody gets it for you, but you have to be sound of mind.
01:38:11.420 | That's a lot of criteria to be able
01:38:14.300 | if you want to end your life.
01:38:15.580 | And I right now, I'm very upset that
01:38:18.860 | if I were to get dementia, I don't have that option.
01:38:22.620 | Now, this might be too hard for people,
01:38:24.700 | but it's reality.
01:38:25.940 | You want to be thinking about these things
01:38:28.100 | and letting your family know.
01:38:29.860 | So I'm actually considering starting to work on the law,
01:38:34.140 | which is something else I've never done,
01:38:36.060 | but it would be a fight for us
01:38:38.020 | because if you have dementia,
01:38:40.060 | it's not considered in the law that you can deal with it
01:38:45.060 | because I wouldn't be sound of mind.
01:38:47.220 | It's not six months, blah, blah, blah.
01:38:49.740 | So all I can say to this person,
01:38:51.740 | asking about dementia is just a very hard, difficult thing.
01:38:56.740 | This might make you feel better.
01:38:58.900 | Hopefully you're in this category.
01:39:01.340 | With dementia, people that are more educated
01:39:04.700 | are less likely to get dementia.
01:39:07.900 | And it runs in families.
01:39:09.500 | Meaning if your mother luckily was above eighth grade,
01:39:14.220 | you're in good shape.
01:39:15.420 | If she was below eighth grade,
01:39:17.500 | you're more likely to get dementia.
01:39:19.980 | And the recent studies are more likely,
01:39:22.900 | it's how well you did.
01:39:24.940 | It doesn't matter how much you did,
01:39:27.220 | how much schooling you did.
01:39:28.580 | Now they're saying it's quality.
01:39:30.220 | If you studied hard and did well,
01:39:32.740 | you're less likely to get dementia.
01:39:34.780 | So hopefully that's a little comforting.
01:39:37.980 | - It is comforting, Jill.
01:39:39.020 | Thanks for sharing that.
01:39:39.940 | I want to build on Ed's question a bit more
01:39:42.140 | and some of what you just said.
01:39:44.500 | In terms of say genetics or your parents,
01:39:46.900 | things that are well beyond our control,
01:39:49.100 | we have little influence there,
01:39:51.020 | but there's so much written about
01:39:52.460 | and because you exhaustively digest the studies,
01:39:55.940 | as you've said,
01:39:57.100 | what have you found to be commonality
01:39:59.980 | supported by the science to avert dementia
01:40:03.060 | or delay dementia?
01:40:04.180 | People talk about puzzles or their websites
01:40:07.180 | selling brain teasers, all these things.
01:40:09.460 | But I don't know that the science supports that,
01:40:11.220 | but I seem to see exercise as a recurring activity
01:40:17.380 | that it helps the brain,
01:40:19.140 | but I don't know what the science says more deeply
01:40:22.620 | or broadly.
01:40:23.460 | Maybe you can comment on that.
01:40:24.300 | - Let me look and see if I know anything more
01:40:26.220 | because I do have a section on it
01:40:28.260 | and these games and stuff,
01:40:31.420 | there's no literature backing it up.
01:40:34.420 | Like people that even New York Times puzzles,
01:40:38.500 | they like it.
01:40:39.420 | That's great.
01:40:40.260 | You like it, do it.
01:40:41.380 | But it doesn't stave off necessarily dementia.
01:40:45.220 | But what you said about exercise,
01:40:48.220 | that's a huge literature for mental health,
01:40:51.660 | for physical health, for longevity.
01:40:54.420 | The literature would say, don't smoke,
01:40:57.700 | don't drink excessively.
01:40:59.460 | Yeah, you can drink, okay,
01:41:00.620 | but you know, maybe you don't know,
01:41:02.580 | but you don't want to have a problem with these things.
01:41:06.180 | But the other really hard thing about dementia
01:41:10.380 | is you go to doctors
01:41:12.460 | and they start prescribing all these medications
01:41:15.100 | for you.
01:41:16.100 | First of all, medications are usually tested in isolation.
01:41:19.460 | They're not tested with other drugs.
01:41:22.260 | So they're not necessarily...
01:41:24.460 | And I know literature,
01:41:25.740 | like if you need an antidepressant
01:41:28.220 | and it's a really good one, that's great.
01:41:31.100 | And it can help.
01:41:32.380 | I'm much more into cognitive exercise.
01:41:36.220 | There's so many things you could do for depression
01:41:38.700 | before most people do not need to take an antidepressant.
01:41:43.260 | But these medications have side effects
01:41:46.620 | like some of the antidepressants
01:41:49.260 | that make it more likely
01:41:50.500 | you're going to have memory problems.
01:41:52.700 | So read about the medications you're going to take.
01:41:57.060 | Don't just take them because maybe it'll help one thing,
01:42:00.300 | but the side effects can be big.
01:42:02.820 | So I don't have a lot of literature.
01:42:06.180 | It's not my area of expertise, neurocognitive.
01:42:10.420 | I just know some of it
01:42:12.340 | because that's the question people ask.
01:42:16.340 | And we tend to use the word neurocognitive now,
01:42:19.860 | not just dementia,
01:42:20.860 | because there are a lot of ways you can lose your memory.
01:42:25.500 | So let me, I don't think I have much more to say.
01:42:29.300 | - I'm sorry, our time's running a little short.
01:42:32.620 | We're going to move on.
01:42:33.700 | Alan has a question.
01:42:34.740 | Lady Geek, we're going to call on you in just a second.
01:42:36.380 | I want to remind people, see what Lady Geek did.
01:42:39.100 | You don't have to turn your video on necessarily
01:42:41.700 | to ask a question.
01:42:42.540 | Of course, you do have to turn your audio on.
01:42:44.620 | So don't be shy about asking a question with your raised hand.
01:42:48.220 | Alan, you go ahead and read the question in the chat,
01:42:50.380 | and then we'll take Lady Geek's question.
01:42:52.460 | - All righty.
01:42:54.220 | Tom had a question, a very good one.
01:42:55.540 | Of the people you've interviewed,
01:42:57.140 | did you identify good strategies for introverts
01:43:00.020 | in adapting to retirement?
01:43:01.580 | - Oh, I think-
01:43:07.180 | I'm thinking, it's a good one.
01:43:09.260 | And I want to tell you, I'm an introvert.
01:43:12.020 | So it's a funny thing.
01:43:15.300 | I'm an introvert, but I do need my one-on-ones and more.
01:43:20.300 | So that's, there's not a whole literature on it.
01:43:23.780 | I just want to tell those introverts,
01:43:26.380 | if you can find purpose and you can connect with people,
01:43:31.460 | at least sometimes, it's really important.
01:43:35.660 | And during COVID, the over 60s
01:43:39.140 | that had the social connections
01:43:42.260 | and then had people they could rely on,
01:43:45.380 | they did much better.
01:43:47.180 | So, gee, I'll have to think more about it
01:43:52.180 | because most people, I think,
01:43:56.380 | from the little literature I know about introverts,
01:43:58.860 | and I've read a bunch,
01:44:01.140 | we're not, it's not so black and white.
01:44:03.420 | We're on a continuum.
01:44:05.260 | So if there is a way you can find
01:44:07.860 | to connect with other people,
01:44:09.580 | maybe you like reading and they like reading.
01:44:12.660 | It is, the literature is clear about other people.
01:44:16.900 | And if you still want to just be an introvert
01:44:19.420 | and not relate to other people,
01:44:20.860 | can you at least get a pet?
01:44:23.060 | But I don't have the body of literature
01:44:26.340 | and I'd look it up for you.
01:44:28.580 | There's something that I want to tell you
01:44:31.060 | that I didn't make concrete,
01:44:32.900 | but Rory asked me that with the gratitude,
01:44:36.100 | there really is a big literature on gratitude.
01:44:38.460 | And usually they say, when you go to bed,
01:44:40.300 | it's better to think about
01:44:41.580 | maybe three things you're grateful for
01:44:43.660 | rather than the things that didn't work well today.
01:44:46.420 | We tend to think of that.
01:44:48.220 | One time when I was in a really bad place in my life,
01:44:51.700 | I put myself on a, I made up a gratitude diet.
01:44:55.020 | So every time during the day
01:44:56.940 | that my mind was going to that funky stuff,
01:45:00.980 | I tried to remember things I'm grateful for.
01:45:03.340 | And I am a grateful person,
01:45:04.820 | but when you get in that funk, it's hard to remember.
01:45:07.380 | Anyway, I would like to read more
01:45:10.220 | to see if I can tell more to the introverts,
01:45:12.700 | but I do believe there are ways they can be around people.
01:45:17.540 | I would ask that person right now,
01:45:19.700 | have you ever enjoyed being around people?
01:45:21.940 | Is there anything you can do?
01:45:23.180 | Because as an introvert, I need a lot of recovery time,
01:45:28.260 | but that doesn't mean I don't need social time.
01:45:31.700 | I need it, but then I can't go back to back to back.
01:45:35.980 | And like this to me as an introvert,
01:45:38.340 | I have a structured role.
01:45:40.260 | It's not as hard as being chatty.
01:45:43.740 | That's very hard for me.
01:45:45.940 | So I don't know, any introverts, do you have any help?
01:45:50.940 | - Okay, thank you for that answer.
01:45:57.220 | I'm gonna go ahead and take a Lady Geek's question.
01:45:58.980 | We have about five more minutes left for questions.
01:46:00.700 | Then we're gonna save about five minutes to wrap up.
01:46:02.740 | Go ahead, Lady Geek, ask your question.
01:46:04.420 | - Let me get back to Ed's dementia first.
01:46:06.660 | My late husband had dementia
01:46:09.420 | as a result of a very stressful medical condition
01:46:13.180 | and the advice you've given I've heard,
01:46:15.700 | based on my experience,
01:46:17.500 | I would say to discount that advice on the causes,
01:46:21.420 | root causes of dementia and treatments with medications,
01:46:24.820 | please, instead, go see, in fact, my late husband,
01:46:29.420 | I was dealing with the Hospital University of Pennsylvania
01:46:32.020 | top in the country on neurological things.
01:46:34.580 | My real-time experience, just see the physician,
01:46:39.260 | do not take advice on the internet on this.
01:46:42.140 | Serious meds, so please, that's why I raised my hand.
01:46:47.140 | Please, you are giving general advice, which is perfect,
01:46:52.460 | but not for dementia, please,
01:46:55.780 | just based on personal experience.
01:46:57.860 | See a physician and an expert
01:46:59.740 | in the neurological condition that, and it's long-term,
01:47:03.700 | you don't play with meds for psychological things.
01:47:07.140 | You don't play with that.
01:47:08.380 | So, but anyway, so let me get back with that.
01:47:13.300 | I'm getting frustrated.
01:47:14.380 | If I had my video on,
01:47:15.540 | I'd be like waving my hands and flagging things.
01:47:18.420 | So, but anyway, I think what Ed is getting at
01:47:21.940 | is retirement plans.
01:47:23.780 | Yes, life sucks.
01:47:26.340 | Plans change.
01:47:27.780 | Your parents, I'm dealing with another parent
01:47:30.620 | with a cognitive decline.
01:47:32.660 | It's getting very frustrating.
01:47:34.700 | You just have to roll with it
01:47:36.460 | and you have to make a decision.
01:47:38.340 | Can you afford them?
01:47:40.540 | And parents in dementia or somebody with dementia,
01:47:44.860 | are they safe to be at home?
01:47:46.540 | You go through this basic criteria with a social worker
01:47:50.100 | or somebody who, you cannot take care of them at home.
01:47:55.060 | If they get physically incapacitated,
01:47:58.620 | you cannot do this at home.
01:48:00.100 | And you just have to, you just deal with it.
01:48:01.980 | Life change, life is not fair.
01:48:03.940 | That's, I'm a widow.
01:48:06.020 | I'm also living alone.
01:48:07.820 | And your advice on this, being solo is fantastic.
01:48:11.460 | I'm also a professional engineer.
01:48:14.780 | So, I'm independent, very independent.
01:48:19.060 | So, I just want to say for retirement,
01:48:22.700 | if you plan what plans on paper, financial wise,
01:48:26.940 | oh, we can swing with mom and dad living at home.
01:48:29.380 | The emotional impact will be,
01:48:31.860 | it'll just roll you right over.
01:48:33.660 | So, I say life is not fair.
01:48:36.980 | Plan for it.
01:48:37.820 | And the best you can do is plan for it
01:48:39.340 | and then make a ton of different alternatives,
01:48:41.260 | talk and deal with that.
01:48:42.740 | So, that's what I wanted to say,
01:48:43.780 | but it's mainly the medical thing
01:48:44.940 | that kind of hit me strong.
01:48:46.740 | That I say, sorry, you're an expert,
01:48:49.860 | but I do disagree on giving advice.
01:48:52.500 | - And I'm not sure what you disagree with,
01:48:55.700 | 'cause I agree with what you're saying.
01:48:57.620 | You've got to-
01:48:58.460 | - Yeah, I say you're giving general advice.
01:49:00.100 | And I'm also the administrator on the forum.
01:49:02.540 | And I see a lot of people,
01:49:04.460 | they take your advice out of context.
01:49:07.100 | You're addressing a single person answer, which is great,
01:49:11.260 | but you have close to 100 people on this recording
01:49:15.180 | who are listening to that and may misunderstand
01:49:17.460 | or misinterpret.
01:49:18.300 | "Oh, Jill said we should give you depression meds."
01:49:21.780 | No, no, no, no, that's...
01:49:23.100 | Yeah, so I want to make sure that people are clear
01:49:26.540 | that this is good advice,
01:49:28.700 | but do not act until you consult
01:49:31.700 | with the people involved, with a physician.
01:49:35.300 | - What I was trying to say,
01:49:37.140 | if a physician wants to give you,
01:49:39.420 | for example, depression drugs,
01:49:41.660 | read about it and be very informed,
01:49:44.180 | just like you are with your finances.
01:49:46.140 | These drugs have side effects.
01:49:47.900 | So I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.
01:49:50.580 | I'm trying to say be as informed with your health
01:49:53.900 | as you are with your finances.
01:49:56.300 | - Yeah, yeah.
01:49:57.140 | - Thank you.
01:49:57.980 | Okay, can we move on?
01:49:59.460 | We want to take one last question.
01:50:00.740 | We're going to let Henry ask his question,
01:50:02.700 | then we're going to have to, it's time to wrap up.
01:50:05.420 | - Yeah, I want to pick up on what Lady Geek just said,
01:50:08.060 | that I'm about 10 years into retirement
01:50:12.580 | and it's hard to avoid what's called presentism,
01:50:17.580 | where you are sort of stuck where you are at the moment
01:50:22.540 | and you make, as you make your projections for the future.
01:50:26.380 | And that's true for financial items,
01:50:28.980 | but it's also true for health.
01:50:30.420 | It's also true for how your life is going to play out.
01:50:35.260 | And so to the extent you can build in
01:50:39.300 | a decent amount of flexibility,
01:50:41.660 | and it's not just financial flexibility,
01:50:44.140 | it's also lifestyle, it's hard to project.
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