Ep. 198 | Escaping Your Inbox, Nuts and Bolts of Slow Productivity, and Living Deep with a Family

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.080 | I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions,

00:00:06.160 | episode 198.

00:00:08.280 | I'm here as always in the Deep Work HQ,

00:00:15.360 | joined by my producer, Jesse.

00:00:18.160 | Jesse, 198, 200's kind of sneaking up on us.

00:00:22.840 | - Yeah, two away, two weeks.

00:00:24.160 | - Yeah, I didn't really think about it.

00:00:25.320 | For whatever reason, working on the script for today,

00:00:27.660 | I was like, wow, we're almost there.

00:00:29.420 | I mean, I assume it's probably too late

00:00:30.840 | for us to plan something special.

00:00:34.160 | We didn't really get our act together on that.

00:00:36.200 | - South Africa trip?

00:00:37.600 | - We may be a little bit late for two weeks from now

00:00:41.160 | to be recording South Africa.

00:00:42.440 | Maybe though we can get you out on the sidewalk

00:00:44.740 | in front of the Republic Restaurant here in Tacoma Park

00:00:46.920 | with one of those flippy signs.

00:00:49.440 | - Yeah. - You spin.

00:00:50.360 | - That's a good idea.

00:00:51.200 | - Free podcast show, free podcast show.

00:00:52.760 | We can get a little audience together.

00:00:55.120 | Can have like six confused parents.

00:00:59.320 | On the way to the playground with their toddlers,

00:01:01.720 | just standing around looking upset

00:01:03.380 | in the background in the HQ.

00:01:04.720 | That's gonna be our 200th anniversary.

00:01:07.140 | I'll tell you, here's the best venue in town.

00:01:10.300 | I've done a lot of stuff in DC.

00:01:11.260 | I would say the best venue in town for something,

00:01:13.260 | if you're gonna do a big live show, is Sixten Eye.

00:01:17.880 | You know the Sixten Eye Synagogue?

00:01:20.180 | - No.

00:01:21.020 | - So it's at Sixten Eye in DC.

00:01:22.460 | It's a historic synagogue, but they have this,

00:01:24.900 | it's a fantastic performing space.

00:01:26.540 | And all of these famous music acts have come through

00:01:28.820 | and comedy acts have come through.

00:01:30.940 | This was the old school where they would actually

00:01:33.540 | build rooms for the acoustics.

00:01:36.380 | And so the acoustics in this room,

00:01:38.340 | this giant synagogue room, are just perfect.

00:01:41.540 | And it's a cool looking room

00:01:42.700 | and they do a lot of performances there.

00:01:44.340 | And I got a chance to perform there a couple years ago.

00:01:47.620 | It was the Minimalist, you know those guys?

00:01:49.500 | - Yeah. - Yeah, they were in town.

00:01:51.800 | They were doing a tour.

00:01:53.000 | So they used to do these tours

00:01:54.060 | where they do their podcast live in different cities.

00:01:58.440 | And they came to DC and Joshua got real sick,

00:02:02.180 | like hospital sick, you know,

00:02:03.780 | just like caught something and was not doing well.

00:02:07.300 | You know, they're huggers.

00:02:09.020 | That's their thing.

00:02:09.860 | Like they hug everyone they meet in the audience afterwards.

00:02:11.900 | So, you know, you get all sorts of god awful bugs, you know?

00:02:15.700 | I mean, forget monkey pox,

00:02:17.140 | he probably had crocodile pox or something like that.

00:02:20.780 | So they were down a man and Ryan was like,

00:02:23.060 | can you take his place?

00:02:24.100 | Like just, you can pretend to be Joshua for an episode.

00:02:27.660 | And they were doing it at 6 and I.

00:02:29.300 | So I got out my black t-shirt,

00:02:31.500 | 'cause if you're gonna do the Minimalist,

00:02:32.900 | you have to be wearing a black t-shirt.

00:02:34.260 | And we had a great show.

00:02:35.460 | Anyways, I just remember my one night filling in

00:02:39.240 | for Joshua Fields Milburn, enjoying the venue.

00:02:42.980 | - How did it go? - It was good.

00:02:45.140 | Yeah, they do a good show.

00:02:46.500 | They have a musical act.

00:02:48.280 | I mean, they get it down to a science.

00:02:49.900 | I'll tell you, you wanna grow a show,

00:02:51.900 | you wanna grow your audience,

00:02:55.180 | you gotta work and those guys work.

00:02:57.340 | They have done multiple US tours where they do every state.

00:03:01.320 | Like that's how they grew the podcast.

00:03:03.460 | At some point, they're like,

00:03:04.300 | we're just gonna go to every single state

00:03:06.540 | and do a performance.

00:03:07.380 | And they did that like twice.

00:03:08.380 | And then when they had that documentary that's on Netflix,

00:03:10.780 | they toured movie theaters in every single state,

00:03:14.660 | bringing in their crowds, premiering it.

00:03:16.680 | And they did that before Netflix bought it.

00:03:18.540 | That's what built up the energy

00:03:21.220 | that led Netflix to bought it.

00:03:22.380 | So these guys really are Minimalist.

00:03:25.460 | In a sense that they focus on what's important.

00:03:27.940 | Like, okay, we wanna grow our audience.

00:03:29.740 | And they give it their full laser like attention,

00:03:32.500 | which actually is a good lesson about minimalism.

00:03:34.220 | Like this is the idea for my book, "Digital Minimalism."

00:03:36.980 | It's not about not doing things.

00:03:38.940 | It's not about taking away things

00:03:40.820 | for the sake of taking things away.

00:03:42.060 | It's about focusing on a small number of things

00:03:43.860 | that really matter.

00:03:45.340 | Getting the clutter out of the way that gets in your way.

00:03:48.020 | So actually working that hard

00:03:49.220 | is actually pretty Minimalist for them.

00:03:51.180 | All right, well, anyways, we should get into the show.

00:03:53.660 | Two annoying PSAs I wanna do real quick.

00:03:56.460 | One, someone pointed out the other day

00:03:59.200 | that the reviews of the podcast on iTunes

00:04:02.420 | are really out of date.

00:04:04.020 | I mean, I don't really talk about it much

00:04:05.740 | 'cause I find that annoying.

00:04:07.180 | But it's to the point now

00:04:08.060 | where someone who discovers our podcast might say,

00:04:10.580 | "Why are there no reviews here since February?"

00:04:13.340 | So annoying PSA, if you're an iTunes type,

00:04:16.740 | if you like the show, maybe leave a review

00:04:20.540 | so that it's more up to date.

00:04:22.100 | That is if you like the show.

00:04:23.120 | If you don't like the show,

00:04:24.980 | I just got a notice that the review feature

00:04:28.100 | on iTunes is broken.

00:04:29.740 | And if you try to use it,

00:04:30.740 | you will have a virus on your computer.

00:04:32.420 | So keep that in mind.

00:04:33.660 | Other annoying PSA,

00:04:35.380 | if you like the show, you listen to it,

00:04:37.420 | you'll probably like the YouTube channel,

00:04:39.860 | youtube.com/CalNewportMedia.

00:04:42.540 | Full episodes, video of full episodes,

00:04:44.800 | which now increasingly have visual elements

00:04:46.920 | from drawing on tablets, et cetera,

00:04:49.300 | available on YouTube just a couple of days

00:04:51.140 | after it comes out.

00:04:51.980 | And we also release standalone clips

00:04:54.880 | of individual segments from the show as well.

00:04:57.200 | So check that out,

00:04:58.440 | youtube.com/CalNewportMedia.

00:05:01.260 | All right, let's do a quick writing update.

00:05:03.920 | As you know, I'm working on a new book,

00:05:06.640 | "Slow Productivity."

00:05:09.240 | This is the first time that I have been starting a book

00:05:12.240 | from scratch during the era of my podcast.

00:05:14.880 | So I'm trying to do brief updates.

00:05:16.240 | You get a window into the writer's life.

00:05:18.820 | Jesse, here's the update from last week.

00:05:21.520 | Last week I wrote 5,000 words

00:05:24.800 | focused on one particular section

00:05:26.820 | in one particular chapter.

00:05:28.240 | I have cut or rewritten at least 2,500 of those words.

00:05:33.460 | - Really?

00:05:34.300 | - Yeah, I've been a cutting machine recently.

00:05:35.840 | I've been a rewriting machine.

00:05:37.780 | Here's what's working.

00:05:39.580 | Here's what I'm finding is going on with this book

00:05:41.900 | is I do what I can to come with a reasonable outline

00:05:45.460 | for a chapter.

00:05:46.300 | I think this going to this going to this

00:05:47.820 | is gonna make the most sense,

00:05:48.820 | but I can't really tell how well that plan's gonna work

00:05:51.820 | until I do the actual writing.

00:05:53.820 | And so then I have to just step back and say,

00:05:57.140 | is this really my strongest possible swing

00:05:59.980 | at what I'm trying to say?

00:06:01.300 | The trap I'm trying to avoid

00:06:02.620 | is writing for the sake of writing.

00:06:04.080 | This is a coherent section.

00:06:06.480 | It makes sense.

00:06:07.320 | It's written well.

00:06:08.580 | It's not enough.

00:06:10.140 | It's gotta be the biggest, clearest,

00:06:11.940 | most impactful possible swing

00:06:14.700 | against the target I'm trying to hit.

00:06:16.440 | So I've been doing a lot of that

00:06:17.580 | where I write and then I have to go back and say,

00:06:20.340 | cut this, cut that, tighten this.

00:06:21.780 | We need to add better examples,

00:06:23.580 | putting myself into the shoes of the reader.

00:06:27.980 | So there has been a lot of cutting.

00:06:30.160 | I think, Jesse, that actually my New Yorker experience

00:06:33.380 | is leading to more cutting than I'm used to

00:06:37.500 | because the New Yorker has really built up my muscles

00:06:40.620 | for deep dive research.

00:06:43.620 | So like what the New Yorker demands,

00:06:45.220 | if you're gonna talk about something even briefly,

00:06:47.700 | it has to be the tip of an iceberg.

00:06:51.180 | You clearly know everything about this

00:06:53.500 | and you're picking and choosing a few choice things

00:06:55.620 | and it comes from a place of expertise.

00:06:57.060 | So there's like a deep research

00:06:58.300 | that goes into that type of writing.

00:06:59.780 | So now every little subsection of the section I'm writing

00:07:03.620 | is gonna have this deep research behind it.

00:07:07.240 | And so I overwrite everything.

00:07:09.300 | And then I come back and I cut this, cut that.

00:07:11.540 | Okay, now let me just take out

00:07:12.660 | these three choice paragraphs.

00:07:13.940 | It's turning out sometimes to find the tip of the iceberg,

00:07:16.740 | you have to build the whole iceberg

00:07:18.220 | and see the whole thing

00:07:19.040 | before you know what to put under the surface.

00:07:20.660 | So I think it's actually leading to more cutting,

00:07:23.620 | but I'm hoping what it leaves behind is more confident.

00:07:28.620 | - Yeah, so how does that go?

00:07:29.940 | So for instance, on Monday you wrote

00:07:31.740 | and then you re-read that on Tuesday

00:07:34.140 | and then you cut some of it?

00:07:35.220 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:07:37.340 | I did a lot of writing.

00:07:38.940 | Sometimes I'll cut right after,

00:07:41.500 | sometimes I'll keep going, then I'll go back.

00:07:43.820 | I mean, this one section is now

00:07:45.060 | at a good tight 4,000 words.

00:07:47.740 | And as of an hour before we started recording,

00:07:52.140 | I think, okay, it's the right structure.

00:07:55.300 | Still needs polishing,

00:07:57.460 | but I think I've cut it down to the next things.

00:07:59.180 | But now I'm stepping back

00:08:00.800 | and looking at where it fits

00:08:02.020 | into the outline of the chapter

00:08:03.900 | and rethinking the outline of the chapter

00:08:05.300 | because every time you get a piece

00:08:06.580 | of that outline filled in,

00:08:08.060 | you have a better understanding of that chapter.

00:08:10.780 | And I'm looking at it now and thinking,

00:08:13.340 | I think I need something else on topic X or topic Y.

00:08:16.740 | So it's a very live process back and forth.

00:08:19.820 | You read and you write and you come out of it

00:08:22.700 | and you cut and you read and you write,

00:08:24.140 | like, good, this is done.

00:08:24.980 | Then you step back and say,

00:08:26.500 | is this chapter working?

00:08:27.740 | Is this whole section working?

00:08:29.660 | So that's where I am.

00:08:31.020 | Still enjoying it though.

00:08:32.220 | - Do you know how many chapters the book is gonna be?

00:08:34.900 | - Probably six plus an intro.

00:08:38.780 | So part one is the kind of motivating the problem

00:08:43.780 | and the approach.

00:08:45.900 | Right now I have that down to three chapters.

00:08:48.220 | And then part two is the philosophy of slow productivity,

00:08:51.020 | which I've talked about on the show.

00:08:52.580 | Do fewer things, working at a natural pace,

00:08:56.580 | obsessing over quality.

00:08:58.340 | Those are the three principles.

00:08:59.700 | You put those three principles together

00:09:01.460 | and I think we get a much more humane approach to work,

00:09:04.260 | something that is much more aligned with our wiring,

00:09:07.260 | something that's more sustainable,

00:09:08.500 | something that makes work more meaningful,

00:09:10.140 | something that avoids a lot of the issues

00:09:11.980 | that we have today with work.

00:09:13.620 | So I'm doing one chapter for each of those principles.

00:09:16.580 | But look, that 4,000 words,

00:09:19.540 | that's one of six sections in one chapter.

00:09:24.020 | Now, some of those sections are much shorter,

00:09:25.300 | but yeah, so those are kind of beastly chapters right now.

00:09:28.260 | Anyway, so that's where I am.

00:09:30.060 | Still writing.

00:09:30.900 | Going to California this weekend, so I have plane rides.

00:09:33.860 | - So does that mean more writing?

00:09:34.940 | - More writing.

00:09:36.300 | Time to kill at hotels.

00:09:37.980 | More writing.

00:09:39.580 | Going to Northern California, giving a talk,

00:09:42.500 | going to a wedding.

00:09:43.420 | It's gonna be good.

00:09:44.260 | I'm gonna get some good writing done.

00:09:45.700 | All right, let's do some questions.

00:09:48.460 | I'm gonna do something new.

00:09:50.100 | Why don't we start with a call?

00:09:51.980 | We usually start with written questions.

00:09:53.580 | Let's actually start with a call.

00:09:55.540 | I saw one I liked from Alex.

00:09:57.580 | Let's see if we can find that one lurking in there, Jesse.

00:10:01.460 | - Yep, here we go.

00:10:03.340 | - Hi, Cal.

00:10:04.340 | My name's Alex.

00:10:05.380 | I listen to your podcast often.

00:10:07.540 | I've tried to follow your advice

00:10:09.100 | and get all of my important information out of my inbox

00:10:13.820 | and into some sort of trusted system, task list, et cetera.

00:10:18.580 | Here's the problem.

00:10:20.100 | You do that, you make up a task list,

00:10:22.980 | but there's more granular information

00:10:25.220 | that you need for each task

00:10:27.020 | than you're gonna put in a task list.

00:10:29.220 | And where that granular information lives

00:10:31.940 | is in the email trails that gave rise to the task.

00:10:36.420 | So you're going back to the emails anyway,

00:10:38.940 | and you're still living out of the inbox half the time

00:10:42.180 | to try to figure out what to do.

00:10:44.620 | What's your advice on this?

00:10:46.500 | Really appreciate your help.

00:10:47.820 | Love your podcast.

00:10:48.940 | Thank you.

00:10:50.580 | - Well, Alex, this is where Trello

00:10:53.220 | is gonna do a lot of good for you.

00:10:56.460 | So there's three reasons why I like using Trello

00:10:59.660 | when it comes to organizing obligation.

00:11:02.620 | I like that I can have different boards for different roles

00:11:05.420 | so that you don't have to context switch

00:11:06.980 | between different professional and personal roles.

00:11:09.220 | You can just be looking at obligations

00:11:11.540 | that has to do with what you're doing right now

00:11:13.500 | during your day.

00:11:14.820 | Two, I like the categories.

00:11:17.300 | Categories are everything.

00:11:19.580 | Things I don't know what to do with,

00:11:21.100 | things I'm waiting to hear back on,

00:11:22.580 | things I'm gonna bring up at the next staff meeting.

00:11:24.860 | You can have such creative categories.

00:11:26.420 | It really helps organize this information.

00:11:28.100 | But the third thing I like about Trello,

00:11:30.020 | and this is very relevant for your issue,

00:11:32.300 | is the cards can hold large amounts of information.

00:11:36.460 | This is how you get relevant information out of emails

00:11:41.340 | and into a more trusted system,

00:11:42.660 | is you put them on the virtual back of Trello cards.

00:11:47.580 | So when you click on a card in Trello,

00:11:50.140 | you can flip it over,

00:11:51.980 | and on the back of it, you can add notes.

00:11:55.540 | And I will just copy and paste emails,

00:11:59.180 | text of emails out of Gmail,

00:12:00.820 | right onto the back of a Trello card.

00:12:03.100 | And if there's a thread of emails that are relevant,

00:12:05.460 | paste one, put a few horizontal dashes,

00:12:08.380 | divide, paste another,

00:12:09.660 | few horizontal dashes, divide, paste another.

00:12:12.140 | You don't have to format it nice, don't waste much time,

00:12:14.220 | just get it all in there.

00:12:16.460 | You can attach files to these cards.

00:12:19.140 | So people are passing back and forth drafts

00:12:22.220 | of the report that you're working on,

00:12:24.140 | attach it to the card.

00:12:25.220 | That's where it lives.

00:12:26.100 | It lives in Trello.

00:12:27.060 | You can even put checklist.

00:12:29.300 | So maybe I'm looking at a thread of emails

00:12:31.460 | about a visitor coming, let's say to campus,

00:12:35.260 | and I'm in charge of their visit,

00:12:36.620 | and I've been doing a back and forth with someone about,

00:12:38.700 | what do I need to do?

00:12:40.320 | What do I have to arrange for this visitor?

00:12:42.620 | I might extract out of that exchange a list.

00:12:45.740 | You can do checklist on the back of cards in Trello,

00:12:48.380 | one, two, three, four, five,

00:12:49.220 | where you can actually check things off

00:12:50.620 | and see where you are.

00:12:53.500 | That third benefit of Trello is a huge one,

00:12:56.660 | because again, what it allows you to do

00:12:58.220 | is that when it comes time to work

00:12:59.620 | on a certain role in your life,

00:13:01.100 | so your role as manager, your role as copywriter, whatever,

00:13:05.060 | you go to that board,

00:13:06.380 | and all you are seeing is information related to that board.

00:13:09.380 | And you see everything you need to do

00:13:11.260 | under the categories to capture where it should live

00:13:14.020 | into your current scheme of obligation.

00:13:16.360 | So the zeitgeist there is really clear

00:13:18.300 | and instantly graspable.

00:13:20.500 | And all the information you need

00:13:21.620 | for the various things on this board

00:13:22.960 | are attached right to those cards.

00:13:24.660 | No need to load up email,

00:13:26.380 | no need to see completely unrelated requests,

00:13:28.820 | no need to induce

00:13:30.100 | those cognitively devastating context shifts.

00:13:33.260 | So that's why I'm a big fan of Trello.

00:13:35.700 | Other tools can do this well.

00:13:37.200 | I'm not sponsored by Trello,

00:13:39.580 | I don't have any skin in the game.

00:13:41.660 | I met once, I believe,

00:13:42.860 | the CEO of the company that bought Trello

00:13:45.300 | and expressed my admiration,

00:13:46.980 | but there's no formal relationship there.

00:13:48.620 | If you have another tool that does those three things,

00:13:50.380 | that's fine.

00:13:52.020 | I mean, you can simulate this

00:13:53.180 | in something as simple as a Google Doc.

00:13:55.740 | I've seen people who do this,

00:13:56.900 | different docs for different roles,

00:13:58.720 | different bolded headings for different categories,

00:14:02.820 | bullet point tasks below it,

00:14:04.900 | information just indented

00:14:08.380 | and pasted right underneath the corresponding task.

00:14:11.240 | People certainly do this.

00:14:12.540 | One group that does this for sure is developers.

00:14:15.760 | We talked about this in a past episode.

00:14:17.820 | We were talking about plain text productivity,

00:14:20.120 | but we mentioned that the original term life hacking

00:14:23.560 | came from this idea,

00:14:25.740 | it was Danny Lewin talking about it,

00:14:27.280 | that developers would put everything in their life

00:14:29.300 | in one big Emacs file,

00:14:30.540 | just with indentation and numbers.

00:14:32.140 | Everything going on, everything they had to do,

00:14:35.420 | just indent things, have all the information.

00:14:37.020 | So you can do whatever tool.

00:14:38.160 | I just think Trello or Trello-like tools make that easy.

00:14:41.740 | But the key is, Alex, out of your inbox.

00:14:43.740 | Get the information out of there

00:14:47.280 | and into a system that does not force you

00:14:49.560 | to have to confront everything else

00:14:51.120 | just to work on one particular task.

00:14:54.000 | All right, let's see here.

00:14:58.060 | Let's move on to an old fashioned written question.

00:15:01.260 | This one is from Arvid.

00:15:04.600 | Arvid says, "How do I find out what skills are rare

00:15:08.380 | "and valuable before choosing a master's program?

00:15:13.380 | "I am a mechanical engineering student in my bachelor year.

00:15:17.860 | "I have a hard time deciding which master's program

00:15:20.300 | "I am going to attend.

00:15:22.500 | "I don't have any clear methodology

00:15:24.240 | "for finding out what is rare and valuable.

00:15:25.660 | "What do you recommend?"

00:15:27.880 | Well, Arvid, I appreciate this question.

00:15:32.400 | I used to come to this topic quite a bit

00:15:36.240 | early in the podcast, my advice about graduate school.

00:15:39.060 | We haven't talked about it in a while.

00:15:41.320 | So you have given me an opportunity to return,

00:15:44.320 | as long time listeners know,

00:15:46.360 | to one of my favorite mini-rants,

00:15:48.580 | which is graduate school.

00:15:51.580 | So here's the TLDR form of my advice, Arvid.

00:15:55.640 | Do not start a master's program until you have to.

00:16:00.260 | And here's what I mean about it.

00:16:02.860 | In almost every situation, here's what I mean by have to.

00:16:06.240 | You are working in a job you like.

00:16:08.660 | There is a step you wanna take in this career,

00:16:12.780 | clearly defined, that clearly demands

00:16:16.920 | that you have a master's degree to do it.

00:16:19.120 | So, okay, I'm doing this.

00:16:22.800 | I wanna jump over to this position.

00:16:24.780 | This position will require me to have a master's degree.

00:16:28.160 | And not only that, but it requires the type

00:16:30.840 | of master's degree you're gonna go get

00:16:32.480 | from the quality or type of program

00:16:34.220 | from which you're going to get it.

00:16:35.920 | So for example, you're in banking.

00:16:40.340 | You wanna become a managing director.

00:16:42.560 | It's very clear in banking, after year three or four,

00:16:46.180 | you have to get your MBA in order to move

00:16:48.960 | to the managing director position.

00:16:52.340 | That is a standard path.

00:16:54.020 | You know the quality of school you have to go to.

00:16:56.280 | They mainly go to Harvard or Stanford

00:16:57.960 | for these MBAs, sometimes Wharton.

00:16:59.660 | So that's why I'm getting my MBA,

00:17:02.080 | because I specifically wanna do this.

00:17:03.280 | I specifically know for sure I need to get

00:17:05.020 | this type of master's degree to do that.

00:17:06.940 | Or maybe you're in a federal government job.

00:17:09.240 | This often happens.

00:17:10.840 | They get the GS whatever.

00:17:13.080 | And Jesse, you probably know about this better than I do.

00:17:14.720 | But to get from this level to that level

00:17:16.240 | in this particular department,

00:17:17.400 | you have to have this level of education.

00:17:20.040 | You say, great, I want that job.

00:17:23.560 | I need to get that, this level education.

00:17:25.920 | This master's degree will satisfy it.

00:17:27.800 | Good, let's go do it.

00:17:29.080 | That's why you go to graduate school.

00:17:32.920 | You do not go to graduate school

00:17:34.560 | because you think in general,

00:17:36.760 | having a master's degree will open up more options.

00:17:39.920 | You don't go because you say

00:17:42.080 | that might be an interesting thing to do.

00:17:44.320 | And maybe vaguely this will let me go

00:17:46.200 | into this other career field.

00:17:47.540 | You have to have specificity.

00:17:49.000 | This degree from this program will get me this job.

00:17:51.000 | Without it, I can't get it.

00:17:52.600 | That's when you go to get a master's program.

00:17:54.100 | If you're going just because you think

00:17:55.440 | it might open up options,

00:17:57.340 | let me give you an easier way to accomplish

00:18:00.280 | the same thing that that will accomplish.

00:18:02.640 | A way to accomplish the same thing that will accomplish

00:18:04.960 | without you having to waste so much time.

00:18:06.880 | Just make a sizable philanthropic donation to that school.

00:18:09.940 | Because that's what you're accomplishing.

00:18:12.320 | If you say, I'm gonna go do this master's program

00:18:14.240 | because I like policy

00:18:16.800 | and maybe it'll open up some doors for me.

00:18:19.120 | The school welcomes your money,

00:18:20.400 | but you could just cut out the middleman

00:18:22.280 | and give them that money

00:18:23.120 | without having to waste your evenings for two years.

00:18:25.640 | All right, so Arvid, get a job that you like.

00:18:28.020 | Wait until you get to an obstacle

00:18:30.640 | where a specific master's degree is clearly the way past it.

00:18:33.240 | Then think about going back to school.

00:18:36.180 | All right, I appreciate that.

00:18:37.600 | Jesse, it was before your time

00:18:38.600 | when I used to rant more about master's degrees.

00:18:41.300 | - A lot of coaches need to get their master's

00:18:43.000 | and get head coaching jobs.

00:18:44.480 | - Yeah, that's a real clear thing.

00:18:46.080 | Well, how's it work?

00:18:46.920 | You would be, what is the path for head coaching

00:18:50.960 | of a program?

00:18:51.800 | Do you come out of assistant coaching?

00:18:53.600 | - Most of the time, yeah.

00:18:55.800 | - Right, and then what do you have to have a degree in

00:18:57.760 | for the jump to head?

00:18:59.440 | - They're just, a lot of the ones that I've come across

00:19:02.160 | are just, you need to have your master's,

00:19:03.880 | not necessarily in any specific degree,

00:19:07.200 | but just like athletic directors like to see

00:19:09.600 | that you have your master's

00:19:10.700 | and then that gets you the qualifications

00:19:14.080 | to be interviewed and stuff.

00:19:15.400 | - So there's a lot of things like that.

00:19:16.420 | I think there's a lot of positions like that

00:19:17.920 | where, okay, now you see you need this degree

00:19:21.980 | at this point to move on.

00:19:23.140 | And to me, that's the time that you actually do it.

00:19:25.900 | All right, we've got another question here.

00:19:27.980 | This one is from Rick.

00:19:29.900 | Rick asks, how do you know what is enough

00:19:34.660 | for the next step of your career?

00:19:37.260 | I'm a PhD student in biomedical sciences,

00:19:40.620 | studying cancer biology at a well-known university

00:19:43.140 | in the US.

00:19:44.340 | I would be the first person even in my extended family

00:19:46.620 | to get a PhD and I'm also the first woman

00:19:48.740 | in my immediate family to go to college.

00:19:51.980 | I'm not sure if these things factor in,

00:19:54.460 | but I constantly find myself either in a panic zone

00:19:56.940 | or in a comfort zone.

00:19:58.500 | It's hard for me to identify the growth zone for my career.

00:20:03.100 | I started my PhD after gaining years of research experience,

00:20:06.900 | but I think that was not really necessary

00:20:08.820 | now that I'm here and I'm looking at my classmates.

00:20:11.300 | It's really frustrating.

00:20:12.140 | How can I better identify what's enough and required?

00:20:15.480 | I'm clearly passionate.

00:20:16.700 | That's why I end up doing a lot without realizing it,

00:20:18.500 | but this also leads to burnout and frustration.

00:20:21.460 | Well, first of all, I should apologize.

00:20:24.180 | It's possible I messed up the name on this question.

00:20:27.420 | 'Cause I'm calling this person Rick,

00:20:29.600 | but it's also the first woman in her family to go to college.

00:20:32.740 | Rick is not one of those names that's used both ways,

00:20:34.820 | is it?

00:20:35.660 | - I think we probably messed up the name.

00:20:38.140 | - So, okay.

00:20:38.980 | So Rick, first of all, I apologize for getting your name

00:20:42.420 | wrong, but let's just pretend we're doing that

00:20:43.980 | for anonymity reasons.

00:20:46.380 | Well, second of all, A, congratulations.

00:20:51.100 | What you're doing is very hard.

00:20:53.900 | And that was my B,

00:20:54.740 | was gonna be what you're doing is very hard.

00:20:56.660 | And the reason why it's hard,

00:20:58.500 | it's not just that it's hard to get a PhD.

00:20:59.860 | Yes, it is.

00:21:01.060 | But we often underestimate how much value is extracted

00:21:05.780 | from having informal networks of knowledge

00:21:08.460 | that help you structure your professional pursuits.

00:21:11.480 | These go a huge long way to helping people navigate

00:21:16.020 | through particular professional paths,

00:21:18.180 | friends, family, peers,

00:21:21.060 | who have gone through similar things.

00:21:22.920 | There's information that you'll get through osmosis

00:21:25.940 | or information you will get explicitly

00:21:27.500 | about how properly to navigate this.

00:21:28.980 | And it is a huge advantage in moving through career paths.

00:21:33.600 | So you're trying to do this without those informal

00:21:36.020 | structures of knowledge.

00:21:36.900 | And I think that's exactly what you're hitting up against

00:21:38.720 | is you're having to guess,

00:21:41.180 | well, maybe I should go do more of this.

00:21:44.360 | Maybe I should do research before PhD.

00:21:47.240 | Maybe in PhD, I should focus on being really good at this

00:21:50.720 | instead of that.

00:21:51.560 | You're essentially just guessing at what might be important.

00:21:54.720 | And because you're first generation to do this,

00:21:56.920 | you're probably leaning towards overworking

00:21:59.080 | on some of these things as well.

00:22:00.160 | So not only are you sometimes spending time on things

00:22:02.040 | that aren't that important,

00:22:02.880 | but you might be spending a lot of time on those things.

00:22:04.480 | And that's where I think your frustration is coming from.

00:22:07.680 | So here's what I think you need to do.

00:22:11.040 | You have to recreate those informal networks of knowledge

00:22:16.040 | about your career.

00:22:17.400 | You're gonna have to go out of your way

00:22:19.860 | to get that information in a way that the son

00:22:22.940 | of a prominent professor,

00:22:24.500 | who's one of three siblings to get their PhD,

00:22:27.040 | would not have to do.

00:22:28.180 | So it's not fair, but it's the reality.

00:22:31.600 | Let's make sure we're doing the best with the reality

00:22:33.480 | that you have right here.

00:22:34.760 | So I would recommend treating your career

00:22:36.900 | partially as a PhD student,

00:22:39.280 | partially like you're a journalist or book author,

00:22:43.520 | writing a book about how to be a successful PhD student.

00:22:46.800 | And by that, I mean, you actually have to now go out there

00:22:50.240 | and really be doing research about your job.

00:22:54.060 | It's not as hard as this might make it seem,

00:22:56.520 | but you need to be trying to learn from those around you

00:23:01.000 | what matters, what doesn't.

00:23:03.000 | Now, some of this can be observational, right?

00:23:05.440 | Passive observational.

00:23:06.960 | Let me look at the senior students in my group.

00:23:10.660 | Which ones are crushing it?

00:23:12.880 | Like which ones are the stars

00:23:16.400 | and they're getting the opportunities

00:23:18.120 | that they want upon graduation

00:23:19.700 | and try to figure out what was key, what are they doing?

00:23:22.640 | What's key about it?

00:23:23.480 | Is it publication rate?

00:23:25.120 | Is it the type of technique they learned?

00:23:28.720 | Do differential analysis if possible.

00:23:31.020 | I did this as a professor.

00:23:34.940 | I wrote a sort of well-known blog post about this

00:23:37.560 | where when I was a new professor,

00:23:39.520 | I took graduates of the same research group.

00:23:44.080 | So I tried to control for other variables.

00:23:46.120 | It was graduates from PhD programs who had the same advisor.

00:23:49.620 | And then I went to their CVs and I studied

00:23:54.620 | which of these went on to quickly get tenure

00:23:58.380 | and which ones struggled to get tenure.

00:24:01.180 | Either it took them a long time

00:24:02.300 | or maybe they left academia without getting tenure at all.

00:24:05.500 | I was like, look, they're starting from the same place.

00:24:07.220 | They train under the same advisor at the same top school.

00:24:09.940 | And then I said, let me just analyze these two people

00:24:12.700 | or these two groups rather

00:24:13.940 | and see what's different between them.

00:24:16.080 | And in that case, what I discovered is that

00:24:19.100 | the cohort who got tenure easily,

00:24:22.700 | the main thing that differentiated them from the other

00:24:25.540 | was not publication count.

00:24:27.960 | Both groups published a lot of papers.

00:24:30.420 | It was citations of their five most cited papers.

00:24:33.520 | So the difference was I discovered was,

00:24:36.540 | oh, it's not how much you're publishing.

00:24:37.980 | It is publishing things that other people cite,

00:24:40.700 | which means you have to be up to speed

00:24:43.580 | on the actual literature.

00:24:45.540 | What's actually gathering people's attentions

00:24:47.900 | and that's where you need to be working.

00:24:49.640 | Got to get in the game where people are actually working.

00:24:52.460 | Now that's just for my field, but whatever.

00:24:54.100 | This is an example of differential analysis.

00:24:56.220 | You should be doing something similar within your group.

00:24:59.060 | Which students in my group are getting good job offers,

00:25:00.780 | which aren't, what's the difference?

00:25:01.900 | Let me analyze them.

00:25:02.740 | And the answer might not be what you suspect.

00:25:05.780 | Like it might have to do with productivity.

00:25:07.020 | It might have to do with technique.

00:25:08.140 | Oh, these people mastered a technique

00:25:09.960 | that's really hot right now.

00:25:10.900 | These people are working on an older technique

00:25:12.340 | that no one cares about

00:25:13.180 | or a new technique that no one didn't pick up steam.

00:25:15.580 | Whatever, you'll figure out what the difference is.

00:25:18.620 | Or they write a lot of review papers

00:25:20.220 | and these people did it.

00:25:22.180 | So you might be doing passive observational research

00:25:24.860 | to try to figure out what really matters.

00:25:28.020 | Then you can also do active interrogatory research.

00:25:31.780 | I am going to talk to people,

00:25:34.200 | take out professor or postdoc for coffee,

00:25:37.300 | say, look, I'm first generation to do this in my family.

00:25:41.580 | I just want to learn.

00:25:42.560 | What have you learned?

00:25:43.400 | What's important?

00:25:44.220 | What's not?

00:25:45.060 | What should I focus on?

00:25:45.900 | What should I not?

00:25:46.720 | Like you're a journalist trying to write

00:25:48.520 | the definitive book on how to do well

00:25:50.380 | in a PhD program at the school where you are

00:25:52.420 | in the program that you are.

00:25:54.060 | You are recreating these informal structures of information

00:25:58.580 | that really does help people navigate through career paths.

00:26:01.180 | Again, it's why kids are professional athletes

00:26:04.220 | are more likely to be professional athletes.

00:26:05.660 | Yes, there's genetics there,

00:26:06.940 | but there's also, it's a really unusual path.

00:26:10.340 | Like what's required and what it takes.

00:26:11.800 | And they can learn that from their parents.

00:26:13.100 | Kids are professional musicians,

00:26:14.740 | more likely to be professional musicians.

00:26:16.620 | Kids of actors, more likely to be professional actors.

00:26:21.260 | Maybe they have some acting gene,

00:26:22.500 | but a big part of it is they can actually learn firsthand

00:26:24.980 | how Hollywood works.

00:26:27.000 | So you see that again and again.

00:26:28.780 | So that's what I would recommend.

00:26:30.620 | You are doing something very hard.

00:26:32.780 | I want you to get as much information as possible

00:26:34.580 | about how that field actually works

00:26:37.260 | so that you're not wasting.

00:26:38.340 | I don't want you to waste any more of your effort.

00:26:40.700 | I want your effort going towards the things

00:26:43.200 | that really matter.

00:26:44.700 | All right, well, we have a habit tune-up

00:26:47.420 | docked in the docket here on seasonality.

00:26:53.060 | So I'm looking forward to that.

00:26:54.060 | But before we get there,

00:26:54.900 | let me do a quick word from the sponsors

00:26:57.500 | that make this show possible.

00:27:00.060 | I wanna talk first about Kion Aminos.

00:27:05.420 | So you probably know that the human body

00:27:06.980 | is mostly made of water.

00:27:10.220 | What you probably don't know is that

00:27:11.580 | everything that's in the water is made of water.

00:27:14.060 | Everything else in your body is 50% amino acids.

00:27:18.860 | These are the building blocks of life.

00:27:20.660 | They are essential for your health and fitness.

00:27:23.980 | So no matter how you like to move

00:27:25.700 | or whatever you do to stay fit,

00:27:26.660 | you have to care about your amino acids.

00:27:31.220 | Now, people who are really in the fitness know about this.

00:27:34.980 | When I walk into the HQ,

00:27:36.220 | usually the first thing Jesse says to me is,

00:27:39.540 | "Hey man, how's your aminos doing today?"

00:27:42.020 | - It's true.

00:27:42.860 | - I don't always have an answer.

00:27:44.500 | And I'll say, "I'm embarrassed."

00:27:46.460 | So this is why Kion Aminos

00:27:49.620 | is a fundamental fitness supplement.

00:27:52.820 | I have been trying these out.

00:27:55.100 | You drink them, it's in a drink form.

00:27:57.860 | You can drink them every day for energy, muscle and recovery,

00:28:00.140 | especially if you're doing some pretty intense exercise.

00:28:03.140 | I had to take a week off exercise, Jesse,

00:28:04.780 | because of my cold.

00:28:05.900 | Got back to it yesterday.

00:28:07.740 | Feel a lot better.

00:28:08.660 | Feel--

00:28:10.340 | - Crushing the rower?

00:28:12.060 | - Oh, the rower.

00:28:12.900 | Well, let's get to that in a second.

00:28:14.180 | I have to brag about my rowing heroics.

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00:28:58.300 | Kion Aminos.

00:29:00.020 | Yeah, I should note,

00:29:02.620 | as long as we're talking about fitness accomplishments,

00:29:06.900 | as Jesse knows,

00:29:08.180 | I hit my goal announced on the podcast.

00:29:11.760 | Of getting under two minutes split times

00:29:14.800 | for a 2000 meter row.

00:29:16.480 | And then I made the mistake

00:29:19.040 | of going to the Concept2 website

00:29:21.360 | and looking up average times for my age

00:29:25.080 | for 2000 meter rows.

00:29:26.360 | - What is it?

00:29:27.440 | - Well, let's just say my sub two minutes split time

00:29:31.160 | moved me from the beginner status to novice status.

00:29:35.480 | - Really?

00:29:36.320 | - Yeah, so I'm out.

00:29:37.200 | But here's the thing, rowers are crazy.

00:29:40.080 | So the times on Concept2 are from crazy rower types.

00:29:44.000 | So I was so proud of myself that I realized like,

00:29:46.400 | oh, that just makes me a novice.

00:29:48.200 | So now I have a new goal, Jesse,

00:29:50.040 | that is I wanna get to the split times

00:29:53.040 | that makes me intermediate.

00:29:54.520 | - What is that?

00:29:55.600 | - I forgot exactly what it was,

00:29:56.800 | but it's like 150, 150 something.

00:30:00.860 | So I did 158 was my split time

00:30:04.480 | on my record-breaking novice,

00:30:08.080 | it's a 2000 meter row.

00:30:10.560 | And I think 150 something.

00:30:12.720 | - And what's advanced probably like in the 140s?

00:30:14.760 | - In the 40s, yeah.

00:30:16.600 | That's what I used to do as a kid.

00:30:18.880 | - How'd you feel after the?

00:30:20.240 | - Wasn't too bad.

00:30:22.560 | Yeah, wasn't too bad.

00:30:23.520 | I think the weak spots probably not cardiovascular,

00:30:27.480 | just like leg strength.

00:30:29.200 | I think that's, honestly, what I need to bring it down

00:30:32.520 | is probably just work on the leg strength.

00:30:35.760 | My lungs held out okay.

00:30:38.000 | I wasn't, it wasn't running out of air.

00:30:41.640 | I think I'm just not getting quite enough power

00:30:44.080 | out of the legs.

00:30:46.160 | But I'll keep pounding the Keone Aminos until,

00:30:49.920 | if I get the intermediate, I'm happy.

00:30:51.160 | If I can be at the intermediate level for my age group

00:30:53.920 | on the Concept2 website,

00:30:55.400 | I'll feel like my cardio fitness is in a reasonable place.

00:30:59.560 | - Yeah, I agree with that.

00:31:00.880 | - Yeah, 'cause those guys are animals.

00:31:04.600 | And by the way, rowing is completely genetically weird.

00:31:08.360 | Like the stroke of the boat I was in freshman year

00:31:12.880 | was a great 2000 meter rower.

00:31:15.080 | So he won his category at Crash B's.

00:31:18.880 | So if you're a rower, you know what this means.

00:31:20.440 | It's an erging competition,

00:31:21.920 | National Collegiate Erging Competition.

00:31:24.920 | And he's about my height, a little shorter, six foot,

00:31:28.960 | skinny guy, skinny dude, and just crushes rowing machines.

00:31:32.960 | - Really?

00:31:33.800 | - He eats them up, spits them out.

00:31:36.200 | It's like that, man.

00:31:37.120 | There's so many stories about that,

00:31:38.280 | where people just walk in, hungover,

00:31:41.360 | and blast out a 620, 2000 meters.

00:31:46.320 | There's just some freak of genetic nature.

00:31:49.520 | Well, I'll tell you this though,

00:31:51.960 | and here's a professional transition.

00:31:53.200 | All of that rowing is gonna make you hungry.

00:31:55.000 | You're gonna want something good to eat,

00:31:56.640 | but you don't wanna take in the junk

00:31:59.240 | that's gonna get in your way

00:32:01.720 | of breaking new records on the rowing machine.

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00:33:39.040 | Thank you, Magic Spoon, for sponsoring this episode.

00:33:41.920 | All right.

00:33:45.320 | Let's do some habit tune-ups, Jesse.

00:33:47.160 | - Sounds good.

00:33:48.560 | - So, for those who don't know,

00:33:49.880 | habit tune-up is a segment in which

00:33:52.120 | I take a piece of advice from my advice canon

00:33:56.160 | and walk you through it.

00:33:58.880 | So, today I wanna talk about what I sometimes call

00:34:01.400 | multi-scale seasonality.

00:34:05.320 | So, I've been reading a lot recently

00:34:08.600 | about what I sometimes think of as natural productivity.

00:34:12.760 | What I mean by that is the way as human beings

00:34:17.040 | we are wired to work.

00:34:18.560 | So, clearly, through most of our history,

00:34:20.760 | before culture could rapidly intercede

00:34:22.760 | with what our day-to-day lives were like,

00:34:25.680 | we had time for our brains and bodies to evolve

00:34:29.000 | for whatever it was we had to do to survive day-to-day.

00:34:32.680 | And I'm really interested in what that is

00:34:33.960 | 'cause it gives us some, I'm approaching this with care,

00:34:36.760 | but it gives us some notion

00:34:37.600 | of what our natural inclinations for work actually are.

00:34:42.240 | So, actually, as we finish recording this, Jesse,

00:34:46.960 | my research assistant, Caleb's coming over.

00:34:49.560 | He's bringing a big stack of research

00:34:52.880 | he's been doing on my behalf on this topic.

00:34:54.560 | So, a couple hours from now,

00:34:56.160 | I'm about to really increase my knowledge

00:34:58.880 | of how did we think about work in the Paleolithic.

00:35:02.640 | So, one of the things, though, that seems to be clear

00:35:05.000 | from the work I've done so far

00:35:06.200 | is that our minds are not used to this idea

00:35:09.240 | of being pegged at all-out work relentlessly

00:35:14.120 | day after day, week after week, month after month.

00:35:17.440 | Our natural sense of productivity

00:35:19.160 | is way more rhythmic on different scales.

00:35:21.680 | There's intense periods and recharge periods.

00:35:24.080 | There's up and down periods.

00:35:25.440 | There's a variability to what work means.

00:35:28.120 | We get frazzled.

00:35:29.520 | We get this chronic background hum of anxiety

00:35:32.600 | when it's every single day, wall to wall,

00:35:35.880 | email, Zoom, email, Zoom, email, Zoom,

00:35:37.160 | Slack, Slack, Slack, email, email, email,

00:35:39.240 | quick break, dinner, go to sleep, repeat.

00:35:42.120 | Again and again and again.

00:35:43.640 | We can handle intense situations.

00:35:45.120 | We're not meant to live in that all of the time.

00:35:47.660 | So, one of the things I have been recommending,

00:35:50.480 | one of the things I've been experimenting with

00:35:51.960 | is what I call multi-scale seasonality,

00:35:54.880 | which is about inducing more breaks

00:35:58.400 | into your working life at different scales

00:36:01.480 | to give yourself some freedom

00:36:03.800 | from the sense of I'm always on.

00:36:05.680 | Now, at the scale of a year,

00:36:07.880 | most people will take vacation.

00:36:09.640 | So, that's good.

00:36:11.080 | One or two weeks, maybe twice a year,

00:36:13.920 | people will take off work and that's good.

00:36:16.840 | But what I wanna recommend with multi-scale seasonality

00:36:19.120 | is that we replicate this at shorter timeframes.

00:36:22.720 | So, if possible, I would say take one day off

00:36:27.960 | every two months or so.

00:36:30.020 | So, if you're in a job where you build up

00:36:34.560 | like a federal government job,

00:36:35.840 | where you build up a bunch of personal days

00:36:37.560 | and vacation days, use one, once every two months.

00:36:40.880 | Take that day off and don't work.

00:36:44.680 | Do something kind of over the top that signals to yourself

00:36:47.440 | that this is a self-care relaxation type of day.

00:36:50.560 | Next, again, if possible in your job,

00:36:55.400 | take one half day off every two weeks or so.

00:36:59.100 | Now, this I would recommend

00:37:01.040 | if you're in a knowledge work job,

00:37:03.360 | just doing unofficially.

00:37:04.960 | Let you follow my advice.

00:37:07.360 | You're on top of things.

00:37:08.320 | You're organized, you're time-block planning,

00:37:10.100 | you're multi-scale planning.

00:37:11.480 | You get your stuff done.

00:37:13.400 | You can set things up so that on Friday,

00:37:15.360 | you're really clocking out of work at 1.30

00:37:19.200 | instead of going all the way to five.

00:37:20.520 | You can figure out how to basically do that.

00:37:22.000 | If you're working from home,

00:37:22.880 | you can literally go somewhere else.

00:37:24.520 | If you're working in an office,

00:37:25.540 | you can kind of informally shut down

00:37:29.640 | and kind of be relaxing, working something else

00:37:31.400 | and then leave the office early,

00:37:33.320 | a little bit earlier than normal.

00:37:35.000 | So, you can do this a little bit unofficially.

00:37:37.320 | That's like a half day where I'm going to see a movie.

00:37:39.560 | I'm going to catch a day game at the baseball stadium.

00:37:43.820 | Do that every two weeks or so.

00:37:45.880 | Look, if you're an organized person,

00:37:46.840 | this will have zero impact on how much you produce,

00:37:49.160 | but it is really good for your psychology.

00:37:51.440 | It's not that this adds up to a ton of time off,

00:37:53.680 | but psychologically, it adds up to regular breaks

00:37:58.140 | from what's going on.

00:37:59.200 | You're never too far away from a half day

00:38:01.100 | that you're taking off out of the normal,

00:38:03.100 | where you'd normally be working.

00:38:03.980 | You're never more than a month or so away

00:38:05.320 | from taking a full day off and doing something else.

00:38:08.460 | You're never six months away

00:38:09.360 | from taking two weeks off for a vacation.

00:38:11.200 | So, having breaks on multiple scales

00:38:13.340 | serves a really useful psychological trick,

00:38:18.060 | and it gets your brain into a mode of,

00:38:20.060 | we worked and we're off,

00:38:21.140 | and it can really help short circuit

00:38:23.300 | that background hum of anxiety that happens

00:38:25.700 | if you feel like you're constantly picked.

00:38:27.180 | Now, in the big picture,

00:38:28.020 | I think multi-scale seasonality

00:38:29.520 | can be way more aggressive than that.

00:38:30.780 | I have a lot of thoughts about that.

00:38:32.380 | I think work should be way more varied than that.

00:38:34.820 | We'll get to that.

00:38:36.500 | The whole chapter of my new book's going to be about that,

00:38:38.500 | but for now, this is a simple thing

00:38:41.020 | that you can do right away

00:38:42.600 | that will make a big difference to your psychology.

00:38:45.320 | - So, do you practice that?

00:38:49.180 | - Yeah, well, I practice more extreme versions,

00:38:51.240 | but again, I have a very flexible job.

00:38:54.900 | I have seasons that are different than other seasons.

00:38:56.940 | I'm in writing mode for three months now.

00:38:59.060 | That's a big change.

00:39:00.500 | Yeah, I do weeks off, not weeks off,

00:39:03.420 | days off on a very regular basis.

00:39:05.220 | I'll do that, protect days way out in advance.

00:39:08.680 | Makes a big difference.

00:39:10.140 | - But you still write six days a week?

00:39:12.420 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:39:13.940 | So, I mean, what I'm talking about days off

00:39:15.440 | is usually from Georgetown stuff.

00:39:17.020 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:39:18.420 | Yeah, writing's on a different type of scale.

00:39:20.540 | I'm working on a book for the six months,

00:39:22.920 | and then the next six months, I'm doing nothing.

00:39:25.580 | So, like, writing goes back and forth on that scale.

00:39:28.540 | But I'm coming to it.

00:39:29.900 | This is the working at a natural pace

00:39:33.420 | piece of slow productivity.

00:39:34.740 | This is what this is starting to get to.

00:39:36.740 | Is work should not necessarily be,

00:39:39.580 | I'm just pegged eight, nine hours a day

00:39:42.780 | with a few extra checks after,

00:39:44.020 | 'cause there's always stuff piled up,

00:39:45.180 | always stuff I'm working on.

00:39:46.260 | Anytime I barely get away, if I am, it's an issue.

00:39:48.420 | We're not wired for that.

00:39:49.660 | All right, so I wanna try something,

00:39:53.620 | some trepidation, let's try something new here.

00:39:56.420 | So, Jesse has prepped three calls,

00:40:00.020 | each with a quick question.

00:40:02.660 | I have not heard these calls.

00:40:04.220 | I don't really know what they're about.

00:40:05.740 | So, we're gonna call this rapid fire.

00:40:08.020 | We're gonna do three calls in a row.

00:40:09.620 | After each call, I'm gonna try to,

00:40:11.020 | without having done any prep, give a quick answer.

00:40:14.140 | So, we're gonna do three calls

00:40:15.260 | with three rapid fired answers,

00:40:16.940 | and we'll see how that goes.

00:40:18.620 | - Sounds good, here we go.

00:40:20.900 | First call from Amy.

00:40:22.180 | - Hey, Cal, my name's Amy,

00:40:26.020 | and I have a quick question

00:40:27.260 | about your evening wind down routine,

00:40:30.340 | in that I'm curious as to what it is these days.

00:40:33.460 | Thanks so much.

00:40:34.380 | - Well, Amy, I think you need to start drinking heavily

00:40:37.380 | at four, and really bring that in for a landing

00:40:40.380 | right about 11, as you slip into unconsciousness.

00:40:44.660 | Now, my evening wind down routine,

00:40:46.700 | schedule shutdown confirmed.

00:40:48.620 | You do the shutdown ritual, you close the open loops,

00:40:52.080 | you look at your plan for the rest of the week,

00:40:53.900 | and make sure that you're on track to complete it.

00:40:55.460 | You check that check box in your time block planner

00:40:58.700 | that says the schedule is shut down.

00:41:01.260 | And then what I do is I try to make a rough plan

00:41:04.060 | for the night ahead.

00:41:06.180 | I think if there's some interesting or productive

00:41:09.060 | things I can do during the evening, I enjoy it more.

00:41:11.700 | Yesterday as an example, I reconfigured my closet.

00:41:15.860 | I like having something like that to do.

00:41:18.300 | I'm gonna work on the yard,

00:41:19.420 | I'm gonna reconfigure my closet,

00:41:20.940 | I'm gonna take the kids to go see this thing,

00:41:22.740 | there's a special show we're looking forward to watching,

00:41:25.660 | there's something I'm gonna research.

00:41:26.660 | So having productive, interesting things to do,

00:41:29.020 | family oriented, unwork oriented.

00:41:30.740 | So shut down hard, have a ritual, check the box,

00:41:34.860 | and then have a completely new, rough,

00:41:38.020 | but active plan for the evening.

00:41:40.460 | And if that fails, again, start drinking at four,

00:41:43.940 | coming for a landing at 11.

00:41:45.580 | - What did you do to your closet?

00:41:47.900 | - Oh, this is riveting stuff.

00:41:49.760 | I had one hanging bar, and I reconfigured it to have two.

00:41:54.760 | So I could have the shirts up high,

00:41:58.420 | and the pants down low, and I cleaned it out.

00:42:01.420 | And man, I had--

00:42:02.500 | - Do you purge a lot?

00:42:03.820 | - I have recently.

00:42:06.020 | I just went through a big purge.

00:42:06.980 | It was a lot of clothes.

00:42:08.500 | Yeah, a lot of clothes.

00:42:09.540 | So now I am down to mainly just things I actually wear,

00:42:13.860 | and they're like hung up properly in a closet.

00:42:16.460 | So I like it.

00:42:18.620 | If you don't have things to do in the evening,

00:42:21.020 | you fall back on the screens.

00:42:25.220 | - Yeah.

00:42:26.060 | - And it just feels, yeah.

00:42:27.480 | Like you're just kind of upset and bored and sad, basically.

00:42:32.680 | So you gotta have something to do.

00:42:35.140 | All right, what do we have next?

00:42:36.020 | - All right, next call.

00:42:37.060 | Here we go, from Andy.

00:42:38.380 | - Hey, Cal, Andy here.

00:42:43.060 | Thank you very much for your wonderful podcast.

00:42:47.060 | I've been enjoying going deep,

00:42:49.600 | and dropping that into every sentence I use.

00:42:53.420 | So question for you today is quite simple.

00:42:55.900 | How do you take deep holiday?

00:42:58.820 | Thanks, Cal.

00:43:01.440 | - Jesse, I think if I had that accent,

00:43:03.340 | we would have three X more listeners.

00:43:06.520 | - Probably. - Probably.

00:43:07.440 | I mean, everything would sound so smart.

00:43:08.800 | People would be like, that's just imminently reasonable.

00:43:12.040 | - Well, you do have your one accent.

00:43:14.400 | - I have a fantastic French accent.

00:43:16.280 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:43:17.240 | But people don't take advice

00:43:18.480 | on productivity from the French.

00:43:20.080 | It's not what they're known for.

00:43:23.800 | It's not, how do I crush it?

00:43:26.280 | How do I crush it this week?

00:43:28.560 | You don't ask a Frenchman,

00:43:31.040 | how do I crush it?

00:43:32.680 | They'd be like, what you crushing?

00:43:34.680 | You take the baguette, you get the wine,

00:43:38.040 | and the work will be the next week.

00:43:39.940 | Deep holidays.

00:43:43.160 | Yeah, it's a good question, Andy.

00:43:44.400 | I used to try to completely get away from work

00:43:49.400 | when we'd be on vacation,

00:43:53.040 | and it would make me unbearable.

00:43:55.760 | I would get anxious and unhappy and weird.

00:43:58.920 | And so actually, I add intentional structure

00:44:02.560 | to our vacations and they become much better.

00:44:05.000 | Now, what I wanna stay away from is email.

00:44:06.640 | I wanna stay away from Slack and calendars

00:44:09.000 | and hyperactive hive mind coordination and context shifts.

00:44:12.360 | But what I do wanna have is some sort of important project,

00:44:15.640 | non-urgent but important project

00:44:17.300 | that I'm making progress on.

00:44:19.920 | So typically, it's gonna be a writing project for me.

00:44:21.960 | I'm either gonna be writing,

00:44:23.440 | or I'm gonna be reading or doing research

00:44:25.120 | for a writing project.

00:44:26.440 | I also add some other structure to it.

00:44:28.160 | Put a little structure to the day.

00:44:29.200 | Like, when am I gonna exercise?

00:44:30.280 | When am I gonna write?

00:44:31.120 | Let's have a couple of plans.

00:44:32.960 | I feel better with structure.

00:44:35.980 | I think we tell ourselves the myth

00:44:38.660 | that what we really want is nothing to do,

00:44:41.340 | nothing planned, anything goes,

00:44:43.360 | and then we will feel relaxation.

00:44:44.680 | But our mind doesn't actually like that.

00:44:46.520 | Our mind likes having things to do.

00:44:48.060 | So the key to a vacation is just to have a fun structure.

00:44:51.880 | Like, oh, I'm in this cool place,

00:44:53.160 | and it's really scenic, and I write by the lake.

00:44:55.640 | And then in the evening, I like do exercise over here.

00:44:58.480 | We have drinks on the patio.

00:44:59.760 | That's structure, but it's fun structure.

00:45:01.240 | So that's what I've learned.

00:45:03.080 | Holiday is not about avoiding things to do.

00:45:05.400 | It's about having a structured life that's more fun

00:45:09.640 | and relaxing, entertaining than your structured life

00:45:12.000 | back home.

00:45:12.840 | And we do longer holidays now.

00:45:15.360 | So we're doing two weeks in Vermont.

00:45:16.600 | We'll have to figure out what to do with the show, Jesse.

00:45:18.720 | I'll have to record.

00:45:21.680 | Maybe I'll record from the, we're staying in the mountains.

00:45:24.920 | I'm just gonna be riding, right?

00:45:26.960 | We're living by the woods with some hiking trails.

00:45:28.680 | I can walk and do deep walks.

00:45:29.960 | Maybe I'll bring up some recording equipment

00:45:31.440 | to the mountains.

00:45:32.280 | - Nice.

00:45:33.100 | - Yeah, do some deep questions on location.

00:45:37.200 | I mean, ultimately my vision would be

00:45:38.620 | to spend the entire summer up north.

00:45:41.800 | - I mean, the weather's perfect.

00:45:42.880 | - Yeah, we're doing a couple,

00:45:43.720 | we do a couple of weeks at a time right now,

00:45:45.360 | but that's the plan.

00:45:47.880 | - Yeah.

00:45:48.720 | - The Deep Work Cottage, somewhere up there.

00:45:52.320 | So we'll see.

00:45:53.320 | All right, we got one more, rapid fire.

00:45:54.760 | What do we got?

00:45:56.040 | - Here we go.

00:45:57.120 | It's about books.

00:45:58.040 | - Hi Cal, my name is Brittany.

00:46:03.000 | I was wondering, how do you organize your books at home?

00:46:06.680 | What categories or subcategories do you use?

00:46:10.120 | Thank you.

00:46:10.940 | - Well, I don't organize them

00:46:13.680 | in any sort of logical fashion.

00:46:17.440 | I mean, a lot of my books,

00:46:19.360 | a lot of my personal library books

00:46:20.840 | are actually here in the HQ.

00:46:22.120 | I moved them here when we converted the study

00:46:26.080 | into a classroom during that year of COVID

00:46:28.520 | when the schools were closed and we were homeschooling.

00:46:30.760 | So we moved them all to the,

00:46:32.200 | I moved them all to the HQ.

00:46:33.400 | So my personal library is actually here

00:46:35.160 | and I don't organize them.

00:46:37.000 | And the only organization you'll see

00:46:38.460 | if you look on those shelves is I,

00:46:40.000 | I have a bunch of copies of my books,

00:46:42.040 | like from different languages and this and that.

00:46:43.840 | I mean, for whatever reason,

00:46:45.440 | the stuff I write about does well overseas.

00:46:48.220 | We've sold rights to, now it's 40 different countries.

00:46:50.820 | It's crazy.

00:46:51.660 | There are versions of my books

00:46:53.520 | in places that would surprise you.

00:46:55.660 | You can get a Mongolian version of "Deep Work."

00:47:00.200 | That is true.

00:47:02.440 | Whatever, we're all over the place.

00:47:05.400 | So I put those all together on a shelf

00:47:07.120 | 'cause I don't know what else to do with them.

00:47:08.440 | But then otherwise, I mainly don't categorize books.

00:47:11.960 | Occasionally I'll put together a cluster of books

00:47:14.120 | about the same theme if I'm writing something on it.

00:47:16.960 | So there's like, there's a cluster.

00:47:18.120 | If you go look at it, my shelf right in the other room,

00:47:20.600 | it's like a cluster of books on solitude

00:47:23.420 | from digital minimalism research days.

00:47:25.840 | I think I've clustered my techno criticism books together

00:47:29.460 | on that shelf as well,

00:47:30.300 | but I don't really think it through too much.

00:47:32.700 | Anyways, those will move back though.

00:47:34.460 | We're having the bookcases built.

00:47:37.180 | We're having bookcases built in the study

00:47:40.820 | now that my kids are at normal school again.

00:47:42.900 | And so all the books will move back from the HQ

00:47:46.620 | to my study at home pretty soon.

00:47:48.080 | And I probably am not gonna organize them that much.

00:47:50.460 | I use them so much.

00:47:51.320 | I just kind of know what I have

00:47:52.720 | and I get used to where to find them.

00:47:55.380 | And so I should do that.

00:47:56.780 | Though I know people who go the other way, like Dewey Decimal.

00:48:00.140 | I know people that go straight up library

00:48:01.860 | with their home libraries.

00:48:02.700 | Like it is organized by Dewey Decimal systems

00:48:06.500 | and they have the card thing sticking out of the bookshelf,

00:48:09.020 | you know, where you can see like what numbers are passed here

00:48:11.180 | where you can actually like literally go and look books up.

00:48:13.060 | But yeah, I'm not there.

00:48:15.200 | I'm not there yet.

00:48:16.100 | Jesse, we're gonna have to re renovate this whole thing.

00:48:20.420 | I mean, A, it's kind of a mess,

00:48:22.020 | but B, when all the books go,

00:48:23.980 | we're really, we're gonna have empty bookcases.

00:48:26.800 | The spare office is kind of like a garbage dump

00:48:29.760 | slash storage room.

00:48:31.900 | - Yeah.

00:48:32.740 | - I think we got, we have some summer projects ahead of us.

00:48:34.980 | We're gonna make this place look-

00:48:35.860 | - Probably gotta get a cleaning lady.

00:48:37.340 | - We gotta get a cleaning person.

00:48:38.640 | Yeah, yeah.

00:48:40.620 | See how patriarchal and crude you are cleaning lady.

00:48:44.260 | I'm not gonna guess the gender of who's gonna-

00:48:46.420 | - True.

00:48:47.260 | - Who's gonna clean it.

00:48:48.080 | So, no, I wanna make this place cool.

00:48:49.680 | It's just time and laziness.

00:48:51.540 | But it would be cool if we had, I don't know,

00:48:54.880 | some nice chairs to sit in,

00:48:56.860 | hang some artwork on the wall.

00:48:58.660 | - Yeah.

00:48:59.480 | - It's gonna look good.

00:49:00.320 | All right, so I have a news reaction I wanna get to

00:49:04.340 | that's actually one of the kind of more heartening things

00:49:08.220 | I've seen about social media in a long time.

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00:50:12.260 | even make those appointments.

00:50:14.120 | You can choose a time slot

00:50:15.820 | and whether or not you want to see the doctor in person.

00:50:18.220 | I use Zock Dock with my dentist and we do the paperwork.

00:50:21.400 | You have to fill out those forms

00:50:22.840 | and click the little things

00:50:24.020 | about what conditions you have or don't have.

00:50:26.120 | You can do that all online.

00:50:27.400 | I do it all through Zock Dock.

00:50:28.620 | It sends me the reminders about appointments.

00:50:31.420 | So it really takes you from who should I see

00:50:34.940 | to setting up and scheduling that appointment

00:50:36.500 | and getting them all the information.

00:50:37.700 | Really does make healthcare much more convenient.

00:50:42.440 | So every month, millions of people use Zock Dock

00:50:44.820 | and I am one of them.

00:50:47.000 | In the chaotic world of healthcare,

00:50:47.980 | let Zock Dock be your trusted guide

00:50:50.200 | to find a quality doctor

00:50:51.200 | in a way that is surprisingly pain free.

00:50:54.460 | Go to zockdock.com/deep

00:50:59.840 | and download the Zock Dock app for free.

00:51:03.340 | Then start your search for a top rated doctor today,

00:51:05.740 | many of which will be available within just 24 hours.

00:51:08.100 | So that's Z-O-C-D-O-C.com/deep,

00:51:14.280 | zockdock.com/deep.

00:51:16.340 | If you say it five times fast,

00:51:17.620 | I'll give you another 10% off.

00:51:19.560 | All right, I made that part up

00:51:22.780 | about saying it five times fast.

00:51:24.140 | I just enjoy saying zockdock.com.

00:51:26.080 | All right, I wanna do a news reaction here.

00:51:31.420 | Brief, it's an article that a Canadian listener

00:51:35.500 | of the show sent me.

00:51:37.920 | And I thought it had something positive in it

00:51:39.840 | about what we can do and what we are doing

00:51:44.280 | about some of the travails of social media and our culture.

00:51:48.420 | So here's the article right here.

00:51:50.800 | It's written by Sira Agrell,

00:51:53.720 | who is a politician in Toronto.

00:51:56.920 | And the title of this article is,

00:52:00.400 | Sira Agrell explains why she's embracing tech

00:52:03.580 | but not Twitter in her run for public office.

00:52:06.520 | So there's a couple of things I wanted to point out.

00:52:09.000 | And for those who are listening,

00:52:11.440 | the YouTube version of this segment

00:52:13.320 | actually will show you the article as I go through it.

00:52:16.740 | All right, so a couple of things I wanna point out.

00:52:18.180 | Here's where the first big point is of the article.

00:52:21.140 | She says, "Last week I announced

00:52:22.660 | that I'm running for Toronto City Council,

00:52:25.580 | the Parkdale High Park."

00:52:26.660 | So this is someone who is running for city council

00:52:29.520 | in a major city.

00:52:30.400 | And this was the big part of the announcement.

00:52:33.400 | And I'm quoting from the article here.

00:52:35.500 | "But as a candidate and a councillor,"

00:52:38.560 | so if elected,

00:52:40.000 | "I will not be using Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn.

00:52:42.920 | I deactivated my accounts this morning."

00:52:46.820 | This is something that is very rare to see.

00:52:50.920 | "A political candidate announcing

00:52:52.440 | I will not use social media during my campaign.

00:52:54.460 | I will not use social media once I'm elected."

00:52:58.240 | All right, so Sira gives two main reasons

00:53:03.080 | why she dislikes these services.

00:53:04.920 | Let me just briefly summarize both.

00:53:06.480 | Number one, and I'm quoting here,

00:53:08.640 | "It is well-documented that social media

00:53:12.080 | has subjected people to intense vitriol and abuse

00:53:17.080 | with the highest levels of harassment

00:53:20.600 | and threats directed towards women, LGBTQ2+,

00:53:25.200 | those who aren't white, and people

00:53:26.400 | at all the intersections of these identities."

00:53:27.720 | All right, so vitriol and abuse.

00:53:32.160 | Number two, and again, I'm quoting,

00:53:36.000 | "These platforms contribute to much wider harm,

00:53:39.760 | including radicalization, polarization,

00:53:42.840 | deteriorating mental health,

00:53:44.800 | the undermining of democratic beliefs and institutions."

00:53:47.160 | All right, so those are two clear issues

00:53:48.720 | we've talked about before.

00:53:50.680 | These are harassment machines,

00:53:53.120 | and they are causing all these negative

00:53:56.360 | psychological impacts even beyond harassment.

00:53:59.760 | All right, so what do we have so far?

00:54:01.360 | Politicians saying, "I'm not gonna use social media,"

00:54:04.040 | and giving two well-known but very strong reasons

00:54:06.240 | for why not.

00:54:08.240 | All right, now we get to the part that gave me hope.

00:54:11.120 | I think this is very interesting.

00:54:12.280 | She says, "This does not mean I'm not using technology."

00:54:17.280 | She goes on to talk about all the ways

00:54:20.720 | she will be using technology to connect with people.

00:54:23.960 | So they built out this fancy website,

00:54:26.640 | and I'm quoting here, "That will make it easy

00:54:28.040 | for people to share information with their friends

00:54:29.600 | and neighbors on whatever platform they like,

00:54:31.100 | and I hope you will share this article too.

00:54:32.920 | I'll be engaging directly both online and off

00:54:37.520 | through the site, email, text, newsletter, virtual calls,

00:54:41.680 | face-to-face interactions, and events

00:54:45.640 | where we can actually talk to each other

00:54:48.000 | and not just tweet at each other."

00:54:51.280 | This is the thing that I like.

00:54:56.160 | Sierra Agrell is making the observation that is true,

00:55:00.360 | but that is often missed in media discussions

00:55:02.980 | about social media and its ills,

00:55:04.720 | that social media does not equal the internet.

00:55:09.960 | To say, "I'm not gonna use social media,"

00:55:13.300 | is not the same as saying, "I am not going to use

00:55:16.620 | the modern internet to connect with people,

00:55:19.300 | to hear from my constituents,

00:55:20.740 | to hear what their issues are, to know what's going on."

00:55:23.160 | She is saying these tools are not the only way to do that,

00:55:26.660 | and in fact, they're a pretty bad way to do that.

00:55:30.580 | "I have all of these other existing tools,

00:55:33.060 | my website, email, text, newsletter, virtual calls,

00:55:35.240 | face-to-face interactions, and events.

00:55:37.980 | This, I think, is one of the most important moves

00:55:40.620 | we can make to get around some of the ills of social media,

00:55:44.040 | and that is to move away from the platforms.

00:55:46.420 | But to not just move away from the platforms,

00:55:48.100 | but to declare with confidence

00:55:50.140 | and embrace with confidence digital alternatives.

00:55:53.400 | The internet was around before social media.

00:55:56.580 | The internet will be around after social media.

00:55:58.560 | There's plenty of innovation out there.

00:56:01.140 | There's plenty of novel tools out there

00:56:03.020 | where the internet can help you,

00:56:05.340 | the democratic process and connection."

00:56:07.580 | So I like this.

00:56:09.220 | You can walk away from social media

00:56:12.640 | without walking away from technology.

00:56:14.260 | Searock concludes by saying, "I wanna use technology,

00:56:17.980 | but in a way that builds connections

00:56:20.660 | and allows people to understand

00:56:21.620 | what I'm trying to do and why."

00:56:23.740 | All right, so there we go.

00:56:25.900 | There is some positive vision

00:56:29.960 | of our future with social media.

00:56:31.660 | We can embrace technology

00:56:33.680 | without having to be clicking on those stupid icons

00:56:36.640 | and doing those little 240-character threads and emojis,

00:56:40.160 | grown adults using emojis.

00:56:43.120 | This politician has it right,

00:56:44.800 | and I hope other people follow suit.

00:56:47.260 | That was a good article.

00:56:51.000 | I should mention, if you wanna send me things,

00:56:52.400 | interesting@calnewport.com,

00:56:54.420 | that's where I got this particular article.

00:56:56.400 | I do like the links that people send me.

00:56:58.840 | If you have thoughts about the show,

00:57:00.120 | send those to jesse@calnewport.com.

00:57:04.040 | He actually reads them.

00:57:05.480 | Am I right?

00:57:06.320 | Yeah.

00:57:07.140 | Do we get comments?

00:57:08.080 | - Yeah, we do.

00:57:08.920 | - Yeah.

00:57:09.740 | - Some good ones.

00:57:10.580 | - All right, well, I think we have time

00:57:11.420 | for one last question.

00:57:13.500 | This one comes from, I'm gonna use the name Brian.

00:57:16.040 | This is not the real name.

00:57:16.880 | This was actually emailed

00:57:18.060 | instead of submitted to our normal question submission form.

00:57:22.040 | So I'm hiding some details here

00:57:24.000 | since I'm using it publicly.

00:57:26.340 | All right, here's the question.

00:57:28.180 | I'm 38 and working abroad as a diplomat.

00:57:32.480 | As surprising as it sounds,

00:57:33.980 | I don't like my job for various reasons,

00:57:37.040 | financial security issues, professional capital.

00:57:39.640 | I built up throughout the past 15 years.

00:57:42.880 | I don't have the intention of changing my career.

00:57:46.240 | Okay, because of financial security, professional capital,

00:57:49.720 | though he doesn't like the job,

00:57:50.800 | he has no intention of changing his career.

00:57:53.680 | Besides my work, I study philosophy,

00:57:56.040 | which is my true passion.

00:57:58.520 | Therefore, I almost have two careers to run.

00:58:01.040 | The problem is my girlfriend is turning 35

00:58:04.200 | and feels the urge to have a baby.

00:58:06.400 | I love her and do not wanna break with her,

00:58:08.880 | but I am now at a crossroads.

00:58:10.380 | As I see it, building a family would mean

00:58:12.080 | getting rid of my passion and finding a job back home

00:58:15.280 | to live with my girlfriend.

00:58:17.240 | Hence my question, do you have views on this?

00:58:19.880 | How to conciliate, well, I think he means

00:58:22.000 | how to figure out the tensions between deep life,

00:58:25.200 | family life and a demanding career.

00:58:27.600 | Do you have reading recommendations

00:58:28.720 | to help me solve this dilemma?

00:58:31.080 | The dilemma of being signal and enjoying the deep life

00:58:33.200 | and building up a family with the risk of being overwhelmed

00:58:35.480 | and losing any hope for personal and professional development.

00:58:39.560 | Well, Brian, there's a few things in your question

00:58:43.400 | that catches my attention.

00:58:44.760 | You're talking about not liking your job,

00:58:47.760 | but having no intention of changing it.

00:58:50.960 | You're using the term true passion to describe philosophy

00:58:55.480 | and this idea that you share that starting a family

00:58:59.720 | will mean that you have no hope

00:59:03.640 | for any personal and professional development.

00:59:06.020 | So all of those things that catch my attention,

00:59:09.460 | to me that all adds up to the conclusion

00:59:12.020 | that you're lost my brother, you're lost.

00:59:15.320 | I think what's happening now is that you are just being

00:59:19.240 | batted around by concerns and thoughts and fears

00:59:22.040 | and emotions in the moment.

00:59:23.360 | There's no systematic attempt here

00:59:25.080 | to understand what's going on.

00:59:26.980 | And I'm gonna say at 38 now is the time to figure this out.

00:59:31.000 | And the way to figure this out

00:59:33.440 | is to step back for a second.

00:59:35.840 | All right, reset time.

00:59:37.860 | Let's step back for a second and figure out

00:59:39.800 | what we are trying to do here.

00:59:40.920 | Because again, this is you're all over the place.

00:59:43.480 | This is fear and randomness talking.

00:59:45.740 | But I'm gonna recommend that you do,

00:59:48.300 | which I often recommend to these questions

00:59:50.120 | is to do some serious lifestyle centric career planning.

00:59:53.880 | What do you want your life to look like

00:59:55.380 | five, 10, 15 years from now?

00:59:57.380 | All aspects of the life, where you lived,

00:59:59.680 | you have a family, what's your day like?

01:00:01.640 | What type of stuff are you doing?

01:00:03.280 | Are you among the pine trees reading Seneca?

01:00:08.040 | Are you in the city jumping to the art premiere?

01:00:11.680 | Are you throwing the ball with the kid?

01:00:13.480 | Like really have some of the friends

01:00:15.580 | coming over with the cafe lights.

01:00:16.720 | Like have this clear image of what the day feels like,

01:00:20.040 | where you are, what the rhythm of the day is.

01:00:22.160 | You have to figure out what resonates.

01:00:24.840 | And then you have to work backwards from that

01:00:26.240 | to figure out how do I build towards that

01:00:29.400 | with my career, with my family life outside of my career,

01:00:31.880 | with my hobbies and interests, with my health, whatever.

01:00:34.400 | All the buckets, all the deep life buckets.

01:00:36.060 | How do I build towards that vision?

01:00:37.800 | That's the exercise you need to do.

01:00:41.640 | You need to be building towards a vision you believe in,

01:00:43.800 | not just reacting to fears about various things,

01:00:48.080 | which may or may not be valid.

01:00:49.980 | Now, here's something I want you to keep in mind.

01:00:54.240 | As you do this, as you work backwards

01:00:56.240 | from the vision that really resonates,

01:00:58.140 | it might not be obvious what is the way to get there.

01:01:04.080 | It might not be, oh, clearly I leave the diplomatic corps

01:01:07.520 | and take up this job and that will get me there.

01:01:10.960 | It might be kind of complicated,

01:01:12.440 | especially you're figuring out intellectual pursuits

01:01:15.800 | like philosophy, the career capital you actually have.

01:01:18.920 | Be willing and comfortable with the fact

01:01:20.920 | that you might get the lifestyle fixed down first

01:01:23.160 | before you're able to figure out

01:01:24.320 | the reasonable path that gets you there.

01:01:26.240 | And you might actually have to go out and do some research.

01:01:28.520 | You might have to go out there and find different people

01:01:30.820 | and expose yourself to different things

01:01:32.320 | that people have done.

01:01:33.400 | It might take you a year or more to really figure out

01:01:35.960 | what is that reasonable path?

01:01:37.560 | What is that reasonable path that preserves

01:01:39.520 | my career capital but gets me over

01:01:40.960 | to these other parts of my lifestyle?

01:01:42.440 | You can't always force it.

01:01:44.040 | I've been going through a little bit of this myself.

01:01:48.440 | I've been trying to figure out recently

01:01:51.560 | in my current lifestyle image,

01:01:53.340 | I would say the role of writing

01:01:55.760 | versus other type of academic

01:01:57.360 | and especially academic administrative work.

01:01:59.880 | That's not properly in sync for me right now,

01:02:03.240 | but I'm also comfortable with the fact that it's tricky

01:02:08.680 | to figure out how to move forward to fix that.

01:02:12.080 | And I'm taking my time with that.

01:02:13.900 | I'm trying to understand different options

01:02:16.380 | and different types of reconfigurations

01:02:18.240 | of my academic career that are reasonable, that makes sense,

01:02:22.040 | that leverage existing capital

01:02:23.400 | and set me up for interesting things in the future.

01:02:26.040 | I'm talking to people, I'm having conversations.

01:02:28.640 | I've learned a lot, but it's an example

01:02:31.120 | where I have a clear lifestyle image fixed,

01:02:34.200 | but I'm still doing the work of figuring out

01:02:36.500 | how exactly to get there.

01:02:37.400 | That might be where you're gonna be

01:02:38.480 | because you have a complicated setup.

01:02:41.080 | That's okay.

01:02:42.280 | Fix what resonates and then begin the work

01:02:44.640 | of figuring out what type of alterations

01:02:47.040 | to your career can get you there.

01:02:49.520 | You're gonna get a lot of the benefit

01:02:50.820 | just by having the vision

01:02:51.960 | and know you're making progress towards it,

01:02:53.760 | even if it takes you a while to actually get there.

01:02:57.400 | All right, so it might not be obvious what to do.

01:03:00.520 | Also be ready to test these assumptions.

01:03:02.640 | You long-time listeners know true passion

01:03:06.080 | is not something I believe in.

01:03:08.400 | As you might suspect, this idea that having a family

01:03:11.520 | means you lose any hope for personal

01:03:13.080 | and professional development is nonsense.

01:03:15.280 | You're not gonna be the first person in history to do that,

01:03:19.940 | and it can be deep and fulfilling in its own ways.

01:03:22.440 | And the idea that you have no intention

01:03:25.480 | of changing your job, again,

01:03:27.620 | I would take my foot off the gas on these absolutes.

01:03:30.120 | Let's figure out the image of the lifestyle

01:03:32.940 | that deeply resonates and then start the long work

01:03:35.360 | of figuring out how to get there,

01:03:36.400 | being willing to test assumptions along the way.

01:03:38.360 | I think you're lost right now, but the thread can be found.

01:03:42.780 | Deep life is possible for you,

01:03:45.800 | and it might be not at all what you might imagine

01:03:48.100 | once you actually start systematically trying to build it.

01:03:51.360 | All right, Brian, so thanks for that question.

01:03:54.460 | Thanks to everyone else who sent their questions.

01:03:56.840 | Go to calnewport.com/podcast.

01:03:58.960 | I haven't told you this in a while,

01:04:00.040 | but calnewport.com/podcast is where the instructions are

01:04:02.720 | on how you can do calls

01:04:04.640 | and how you can submit your written questions.

01:04:07.640 | As always, I say, if you like what you heard,

01:04:09.280 | you will like what you see on our YouTube channel,

01:04:12.240 | youtube.com/calnewportmedia for full video

01:04:15.760 | of these episodes and individual segments.

01:04:19.120 | I'll be back next week, and until then,

01:04:21.060 | as always, stay deep.

01:04:23.280 | (upbeat music)

01:04:25.860 | (upbeat music)

01:04:28.440 | (upbeat music)

01:04:31.020 | (upbeat music)

Ep. 198 | Escaping Your Inbox, Nuts and Bolts of Slow Productivity, and Living Deep with a Family

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